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Attitude Adjustment

It’s time to have my 30,000 mile attitude adjustment.

I was somewhat hesitant about starting this web site in December of 2008 because I thought I was getting in the game too late. The inauguration was less than two months away and after that, I thought, no one would still care about these Obama conspiracy theories. I never thought it would be going strong 15 months later.

The site was initially intended as a fact checking and myth debunking collection. I figured I would have all said all there was to say in a couple dozen articles. 646 articles later, I find the material still not exhausted. I didn’t realize that the real story was not the conspiracy theories, but the personalities and political movements associated with them.

Finally, while I enabled comments to the articles early on, I though that the comments would be limited to an occasional correction or question about the articles. 32,785 comments later, I see an animated online community has sprung up.

I’m frankly not happy about how comments are working out. Yes, there are some brilliant and valuable comments, but there is a lot of incivility and bickering. However, I am not your mama, nor your referee.  I would just remind everyone that comments quickly scroll off the recent comments list and into obscurity, so there is little value in responding tit for tat to everything that appears. If you’re interested in the subject or have something new or educational to say, please do take the time; I get great ideas for articles from links posted in comments. But think whether there is any value in responding for the 50th time to the same lame argument warmed over from 2008. You may spend half an hour writing a well-reasoned reply to something just copied and pasted from other web site. I also remind the reader of my article from last May: Do not feed the trolls (DNFTT).

WordPress is really not a good platform for an online community, but I have resisted the temptation to install forums, because that is ably supplied already by PolitiJab.com. You need an account there to see the Obama conspiracy content, but registration is free and the quality of the discussion is excellent.

Some resolutions have come out of my attitude readjustment.

  1. I resolve to comment less, and limit myself to responding to requests to correct an article or answer a question. (We’ll see how long that lasts.)
  2. I’m not going to try to be encyclopedic in the information content presented. To do that, I would have to read the Post and Email, Orly Taitz, and WorldNetDaily (among others) and life is too precious to waste doing unpleasant things like that.
  3. Post a little something every day or two to keep up interest. While I seem to be in this for the long haul, I don’t want it to consume all my free time (as it does from time to time).

To the birthers and denialists: whatever you’re going to say has probably already been discussed in one of the 646 other articles on this web site or associated comments. You can search it all in Google by appending site:obamaconspiracy.org to your keywords. Do everyone, yourself included, a favor by not plowing the same ground again unless you have something new to add. And please don’t plagiarize material from other web sites when you post here.

88 Responses to Attitude Adjustment

  1. avatar
    bovril1 March 8, 2010 at 10:06 pm #

    You’ll be wanting a life next….8-)

    On a more serious note, thank you for your work and input.

  2. avatar
    The Sheriff's A Ni- March 8, 2010 at 10:39 pm #

    Do everyone, yourself included, a favor by not plowing the same ground again unless you have something new to add.

    C’mon, Doc, the next thing you’re gonna ask for is the Cubs winning the World Series. Some things just aren’t possible in this world. 😉

  3. avatar
    aarrgghh March 8, 2010 at 11:20 pm #

    doc, tiredly:

    “To the birthers and denialists … Do everyone, yourself included, a favor by not plowing the same ground again unless you have something new to add.”

    you do realize you’ve just given sven, butterdezillion, et al, fresh license to pull even more imaginary bs out their arses?

    not that they ever needed it.

  4. avatar
    SFJeff March 9, 2010 at 12:14 am #

    Good points Doc. It just is hard sometimes not to respond point by point when people keep insisting for the 50th time that A really means Z, or more to the point insult not only the President but his family members. I will try hard to make my point and move on.

    Oh and not only thanks to Doc but to Greg and the other legal whizzes that seem to pull legal analysis out at a moment’s notices. I do not rely strictly upon those- when possible I go to the cited sources- but I find the analysis of Doc and Greg and the other stalwarts to be very educational

  5. avatar
    Lupin March 9, 2010 at 1:48 am #

    You do have a point: how many times can one state and restate that Vattel did not write a two-parents-citizen clause? How many times can one bring up the fact that Obama had a US passport when he traveled to France in the early 80s?

    It is tiresome to be confronted time and again to the same rubbish. But what is the alternative? Abandon the field to the “enemy”?

  6. avatar
    misha March 9, 2010 at 5:04 am #

    Yellow fever immunization required for travel to Kenya.

    I was talking to my accountant about this, and he laughed. He told me that all four candidates past five years’ returns are given the highest level IRS audit. He said it is “very uncomfortable.” It starts with showing a birth certificate, and a SS card. And there is a background check.

    Sorry birthers, but Obama was thoroughly vetted.

    Obama’s father would have not taken a white wife to Kenya. Ann divorced him because she learned he was already married in Kenya. He surely would not have shown up with her.

  7. avatar
    Black Lion March 9, 2010 at 8:33 am #

    I agree with the others…It is great that the Doc takes the time with this site…It is one of the few out there to counter the many birthers sites like the Post and Fail or Free Republic that like to perpetuate the same debunked theories. And since most of those sites are moderated, they never allow opposition. The reason only drones like Sven and BZ post is to try and get under our skins. They can’t actually think that their arugments are realistic. So it is great that we have this venue to counteract the madness out there….A piece of sanity in an insane world…

  8. avatar
    Scott Brown March 9, 2010 at 10:31 am #

    Yes, but do you not realize, or perhaps you simply cannot realize that it does no good to respond point by point. For every one of your points, they have their points, which they feel equally as justified in believing.

    I’ve asked myself a thousand times, why sites like this and other Obama follower sites continue to try and debunk the non-NBC believers (same goes for the other side). I mean, really – Obama won. Obama is President. What more do these sites want? If the point is to convince the non-NBC believers they are wrong – what a waste of time! They feel they are right, just as Obama followers feel they are right.

    And Doc’s words, as eloquently as he has written them, ring hollow:
    Do everyone, yourself included, a favor by not plowing the same ground again unless you have something new to add.

    Does he want that to apply ONLY to non-NBC believers, or will it apply equally to himself, for this whole site is based in the plowing of the same ground over and over….to the point it has become fruitless.

    It all comes down to interpretation and yes, even Vattel can be interpreted both ways if you look at his words without prejudice and an open mind. One side interprets it one way, the other a different. And both sides want to tout opinions and suppositions as if they are truth! The fact is both sides believe as they do fairly blindly, without many facts, because there just aren’t many real facts out there.

    There is no rule of law – not really – that settles the situation once and for all. If both sides really wanted the matter settled, BOTH sides would push for the matter to be heard on its merits so the country can at least put this issue behind us. All it does is serve to continue to deepen the divide between people who are supposed to be on the same side. Regardless of whether Obama is a NBC or not – the whole country is loosing as a result of the rift, not the substance.

  9. avatar
    Scott Brown March 9, 2010 at 10:36 am #

    To my earlier point – you know this for a FACT because you have actually seen his US Passport with your own two eyes?

    Or, because it goes to logic that he traveled on his US Passport that you suppose he did so using his US Passport?

    Here’s a better question:
    How many passports do you think he had/has?

    I too think he traveled on his US Passport, but I certainly wouldn’t stake my first-born’s life on that, because their is no hard evidence that supports that opinion.

    Trying to shove YOUR opinions down non-NBC believers as FACT will get you no where – as evidenced on this site.

  10. avatar
    Greg March 9, 2010 at 10:45 am #

    We could make a list of the common arguments and the comments that respond to them best. Then, we number the list.

    Whenever someone comes in with Vattel’s two-citizen parent theory, we simply copy the link to your comment explaining how to read French.

  11. avatar
    Scott Brown March 9, 2010 at 10:47 am #

    How pompous and short-sighted. You can’t understand how someone might have the same level of convictions as you do about a subject – only on the other side of the coin?

    I can see both sides of the coin. I certainly don’t think you are stupid for believing as you do, but neither do I think the other side is stupid for their beliefs. And is CERTAINLY does see where degrading someone for their opinion is going to change their mind!

    Apparently, if someone sees the sky as purple and believes it with their whole being that it is – you think they aren’t being realistic because you see it as a different color.

    How intolerant we have become of those with opposing opinions and ideas. And here I thought we lived in America where such opposing opinions and ideas were not only embraced, but was the basis for our freedom.

  12. avatar
    Black Lion March 9, 2010 at 10:49 am #

    A perfect example of the hate of Obama not having the effect that the birthers and the other Obama opponents had hoped…And from Newsmax of all places…Interesting results…

    http://newsmax.com/Newsfront/poll-clinton-obama-bush/2010/03/07/id/351887

    “The Newsmax/Zogby poll asked respondents: “Of the current living former presidents, which do you think is best equipped to deal with the problems the country faces today?”

    Bill Clinton got 41 percent of the vote, trouncing the others in the field of four. George W. Bush received just 15 percent, George H.W. Bush got 7 percent, and Jimmy Carter, just 5 percent. (Only 7 percent of Democrats surveyed opted for Carter.) But 26 percent chose “none,” and 5 percent were “not sure” (figures are rounded).

    When all living presidents, including Obama, were listed as choices, Obama — despite his current low approval ratings — finished first with 29 percent of the vote, followed by Clinton with a strong second (19 percent), George W. Bush (18 percent), George H.W. Bush (8 percent), and Carter (2 percent).

    Obama finished ahead of the other living presidents in all age groups, scoring the highest (30 percent) among respondents 65 and over.

    Interestingly, despite his calls for higher taxes for the rich, Obama was ahead even among respondents with an income of $100,000 or more, winning 30 percent of the vote to Clinton’s 19 percent.

    The Newsmax/Zogby poll also asked: “If an election for president were held today between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, for whom would you vote?”

    The results: 38 percent chose Obama, 30 percent opted for Clinton, 29 percent said neither, and 4 percent were not sure.

    Despite Obama’s weakening popularity, Americans still would elect him president if he were in an electoral showdown with former President George W. Bush.

    Asked whom they would chose if a presidential election took place today between Obama and Bush, 48 percent said Obama, 38 percent chose Bush, 12 percent said neither, and 2 were not sure.

    Interestingly, Obama still nabs a large proportion of self-described independents, pulling 42 percent of these voters. Only 33 percent said they would opt for Bush.”

  13. avatar
    Greg March 9, 2010 at 10:55 am #

    If both sides really wanted the matter settled, BOTH sides would push for the matter to be heard on its merits so the country can at least put this issue behind us.

    So, we should want the court to waste their time with an issue where no one involved has standing to sue, where the courts are powerless to redress any claimed injuries, where the case is clearly a political question?

    Some things just cannot be decided by the court and simply having a dispute doesn’t make it so.

    Obama believes in evolution, lots of Americans don’t. We can’t try that in a court of law, either.

  14. avatar
    Black Lion March 9, 2010 at 11:00 am #

    Scott, you can disagree if you wish. That is why this is America. But if you are willing to believe in a so called Kenyan birth, when there has been no evidence ever submitted that would even be admissible, then it is not about seeing both sides of an argument, it is about wanting to believe something that cannot be proven.

    It has nothing to do with intolerance. So many so called birthers have posted here, pretending to just want clarification, and when their idea is debunked, they continually repeat the same debunked talking points.

    For instance there was no travel ban to Pakistan. Dr. C and others has provided eveidence of that fact. Yet there are some that continue to make the claim that there was a travel ban to Pakistan in 1981. One is supposed to be tolerant of that? Or the claim that “no one from Columbia remembers Obama”. Again there have been many former classmates and teachers from Columbia that have vouched for Obama, yet that lie is still repeated and the former convict Manning is staging a “mock trial” to defend that debunked theory. Why is that? Why should we respect the opinion of someone that has been proven to be wrong but continually repeats the same lie?

    That has nothing to do with embracing ideas. That is all about smearing the President because one dislikes him. And that is why they don’t deserve any respect nor tolerance.

  15. avatar
    Scott Brown March 9, 2010 at 11:01 am #

    You people make me laugh, then cringe with fear.

    Let me get this straight, I’m trying to follow your logic.

    Because your accountant (whom you do not name) told you that someone (whom you do not name) looked at Obama’s past five year tax returns, starting with his BC and SS card and background check – which proves he is a NBC?

    I have no clue whether anyone looked at anything. No one has come forward (with any credibility or authority) and stated they saw anything.

    Here’s what I do know.
    When you are elected to the Senate, you are given a special Senate generated Passport that has no background check or vetting necessary. In that the public placed their trust in electing you, then poof, you are golden.

    Why would it be any different for a presidential candidate. When all this hoopla started, I just couldn’t believe some agency, some committee, or some judicial branch was not in charge of reviewing all candidates paperwork to verify not only the qualifications but the veracity of these papers. But for the life of me, I cannot find such an agency, committee, or body that does this or is charged with these actions.

    If what you say is true, and McCain went through the same ‘vetting process’ as you say Obama went through, why did Congress have to pass a resolution declaring him qualified to run?

    Surely, this ‘very uncomfortable’ process you state would have cleared everything up and they could have just gone to ‘these people’ who ever they are – and asked to see their findings on McCain – case closed.

    Personally, I love my accountant – he does a great job for me as far as my taxes goes, but I wouldn’t put any stock in what he says as far as Obama goes – do you think he might be a little prejudiced towards Obama – sounds like yours is.

    Obama very well may have been vetting up to his eye-balls, and he very well may be a NBC with every qualification satisfied with all the i’s dotted and t’s crossed, but I don’t know that for a FACT, so I’ll reserve my judgment one way or the other until FACTS are clearly presented – if and when that every happens.

    Stating something that someone else said – doesn’t make it a FACT!

  16. avatar
    Scientist March 9, 2010 at 11:07 am #

    If both sides really wanted the matter settled, BOTH sides would push for the matter to be heard on its merits so the country can at least put this issue behind us. All it does is serve to continue to deepen the divide between people who are supposed to be on the same side. Regardless of whether Obama is a NBC or not – the whole country is loosing as a result of the rift, not the substance.

    It is quite incorrect to say the matter has not been heard on its merits. It has:

    1. Ankeny v. Daniels. The Indiana Court of Appeals is a real honest-to-goodness court, and neither wacky nor ultra-liberal. They considered the Vattel argument at length and rejected it. I understand the case is being appealed to the Indiana Supreme Court and can be appealed to the US Supreme Court if any of the birther “attorneys” cares to. Gooid luck with that. Anyway, you are bot free to ignore a court just because they didn’t rule the way you want.

    2. Several federal courts have clearly stated that the correct venue to decide presidential eligibility is Congress. The “2 citizen parent” theories were certainly out there when Congress ruled. Some members may well have read the arguments and rejected them. Regardless, they are the body that decides and they decided.

    3. The birthers have grossly exaggerated the “rift” in which supposedly “the whole country is loosing (sic)”. The vast majority of people don’t care about this. It hasn’t affected anything in the real world. It certainly hasn’t affected a single vote, since I have yet to find a single birther who would support Obama if there was incontrovertible evidence that he was born in Times Square and Wilt Chamberlain was his father. Not a single one.

  17. avatar
    Black Lion March 9, 2010 at 11:12 am #

    Scott, this is why you continually prove everyone’s point. First of all you stated the following…

    “When you are elected to the Senate, you are given a special Senate generated Passport that has no background check or vetting necessary. In that the public placed their trust in electing you, then poof, you are golden.”

    Can you show us proof of that? I mean a link that shows that a Senator is given some sort of special Passport with no background check? I mean if it is that common there should be some link regarding this issue? And what if you already have one? Is it replaced with this so called special Senator passport?

    And then you go on to say the following…

    “If what you say is true, and McCain went through the same ‘vetting process’ as you say Obama went through, why did Congress have to pass a resolution declaring him qualified to run?”

    Again you know why. McCain was not born in the United States. Obama was. That is the difference. Pretending to no know why there was a Senate resolution is being disingenous at best. Again Scott, you prove the point regarding the birthers. The truth is secondary to repeating the same debunked lies masquarading as “questions”. Quite pathetic really….

    But you did say one thing that made sense…

    “Stating something that someone else said – doesn’t make it a FACT!”

    This is true. Repeating the standard birther talking points doesn’t make them true, it just shows how silly the birthers really are…

  18. avatar
    Lupin March 9, 2010 at 11:16 am #

    There is such a thing as a preponderance of evidence.

    There are many things I haven’t seen with my own two eyes, Australia for example, but I don’t doubt they exist.

    (Unless Australia is a hoax?)

    Based on what I know and what I’ve read, I’m satisfied that Obama entered France with a US passport, not some kind of Indonesian or Kenyan passport.

    For argument’s sake he might have done so with a UK passport (although that was pre-Schengen) but AFAIK no one ever claimed that he had a British, or for that matter German, Italian, etc. passport.

  19. avatar
    Lupin March 9, 2010 at 11:19 am #

    You know what’s a FACT? I tell you what’s a FACT.

    That Barack Obama is the President of the United States of America, and will be, at least, until 2012.

    That’s a FACT you can take to the bank.

    What I hear from the birthers side are mostly delusional conspiracies.

  20. avatar
    SFJeff March 9, 2010 at 11:40 am #

    Scott

    Here is the difference between this site and all the Birthers sites. Doc will admit when he gets something wrong. I have admitted when I got a fact wrong. I have never seen Mario or Taitz admit to being wrong about anything on their sites.

    I am willing to be convinced. While I voted for President Obama and support his ideals, if someone came forth with real strong evidence that he had committed fraud in order to become president, I would be clamouring for his impeachment.

    You say we are intolerent of Birthers? I am tired of replying with clear facts and using the standard of what a normal person would consider to be reasonable only to my answer responded with more speculation.

    An example is Sven- he just creates fiction. He maps out this completely unsubstantiated line of events in Hawaii and Indonesia, and just ignores responses which ask him to offer any proof.

    Show me some proof that you would be proud to present in court, something that is credible and can be substantiated, and I will take it seriously.

    But thats not what we get here- we get Sven’s wild speculation about Indonesia, Mario’s debunked theory about travelling to Indonesia, insinuations that Obama killed his own grandmother to keep her quiet- this is what we counter.

    I started doing this shortly after Obama’s election when I heard people where starting rumors that he wasn’t born in the United States. Since I started coming watching this, the number of reasons folks have come up with that Obama can’t have been eligible have multiplied- first it was just the born in Kenya thing, then Indonesia adoption, couldn’t be a citizen, Vattel, 3 Kenyan birth certificates, father was a really a diplomat- and lets not forget the requests for his kindergarten records.

    I embrace honest discourse. Very few Birthers who come here are willing to have that conversation.

  21. avatar
    Mike March 9, 2010 at 11:43 am #

    Concern troll is concerned.

  22. avatar
    J. Edward Tremlett March 9, 2010 at 11:47 am #

    That is an excellent idea.

    Or at least have a thread where the most common BS arguments are located, along with links to threads where they’ve been refuted.

    So when someone comes along with something that’s old hat, someone can say “check the Debunked” thread. And when something new comes along and gets debunked, it can be added,

  23. avatar
    J. Edward Tremlett March 9, 2010 at 11:55 am #

    Well, Doc, do what you have to do, and do what you think is right for you. But let me just say that you are doing a massive public service by running this site, and I’m happy to come by once a day and see what’s going on. Thank you for taking the time to do this.

  24. avatar
    Rickey March 9, 2010 at 11:57 am #

    Scott Brown says

    Here’s what I do know.
    When you are elected to the Senate, you are given a special Senate generated Passport that has no background check or vetting necessary. In that the public placed their trust in electing you, then poof, you are golden.

    You can’t possibly KNOW that, for one simple reason – it isn’t true.

    There is no such thing as a “special Senate generated Passport.” The State Department issues an “Official Passport” to people traveling abroad on official business for the U.S. government, including Senators and members of the House of Representatives, but the “Official Passport” must be applied for and the applicant has to provide proof of citizenship.

    http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/nofee/nofee_836.html

    “An official passport is a passport which is issued to someone who must travel internationally on official state business. These passports are issued specifically to people who need to travel, rather than to people who are being assigned or posted overseas. For people who are being assigned overseas for state purposes, a diplomatic passport is issued. Official passports are usually a different color from regular passports, to make them easier to identify, and they do not entitle their bearers to any special privileges. This type of passport is sometimes called a service passport. It is a no-fee passport, which means that people do not need to pay to apply for it. The application for an official passport typically includes all of the materials needed for a regular passport, along with forms which confirm that the applicant needs a passport for official business.”

    http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-an-official-passport.htm

    All of this high-minded talk about respecting the opinions of others is fine, but one thing we do not respect is when people proclaim “facts” which are demonstrably untrue or unproven.

  25. avatar
    PaulG March 9, 2010 at 12:04 pm #

    Love the site and thanks for all the hard work.

    Still, a recent article on the pointlessness of an observation that Obama Sr lived near to a murdered doctor in the 70’s balloons up to 268 comments (and counting) without adding anything except confusion. There does seem to be something off.

  26. avatar
    nbC March 9, 2010 at 12:29 pm #

    The facts are simple:

    Obama was born on US soil as verified by the Department of Health in Hawaii and his COLB.

    That is all that matters.

    Simple…

  27. avatar
    nbC March 9, 2010 at 12:31 pm #

    How intolerant we have become of those with opposing opinions and ideas. And here I thought we lived in America where such opposing opinions and ideas were not only embraced, but was the basis for our freedom.

    Ideas are only as good as their foundation. Ignorance seldomly makes for a solid one.

    YMMV

  28. avatar
    nbC March 9, 2010 at 12:36 pm #

    All it does is serve to continue to deepen the divide between people who are supposed to be on the same side.

    The birthers have clearly chosen that they will never be on the same side. It’s all about Obama’s policies and the efforts to stop him at all cost.

    Pathetic…

    Under the guise of trying to bring the country together they are intent on increasing the rift.

    Patriots…. my **s

  29. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 9, 2010 at 12:42 pm #

    If Obama already had a valid, unexpired passport, I don’t see why he would have applied for an official one.

  30. avatar
    SvenMagnussen March 9, 2010 at 12:53 pm #

    An example is Sven- he just creates fiction. He maps out this completely unsubstantiated line of events in Hawaii and Indonesia, and just ignores responses which ask him to offer any proof.

    You’re blinded by your own ambition to be correct. I’m not sure if you came to the party late or SFJeff is a new alias for an earlier poster, but my theories are sound.

    For example, it’s ridiculous to think a 10-year-old child would travel internationally and clear customs on their own. Yet, Obots have completely bought into the story written in Obama’s autobiography.

    It is more likely that Barry Soetoro was identified as an Indonesian child abandoned or orphaned in Indonesia with US citizen grandparents living in Hawai’i. The grandparents are entitled to service from the US State Department.

    The US State Department can expedite refugee travel documents, pay travel expenses, provide an adult escort to ensure the safety of a minor in their custody and easily clear customs.

    The difference between you an me is that I don’t disrepect you for not believing as I do. I don’t disrepect citizens of a another country by not even entertaining the idea a person who has moved to become a permanent resident of their country, striving to obtain an education, set up and maintain a household wouldn’t bother to become a citizen of their country. And I certainly don’t look at a school record created and maintained 40 years ago only to dismiss it because it was found in a country different from my own.

    It’s called xenophobia. Look it up.

  31. avatar
    Scientist March 9, 2010 at 1:06 pm #

    Alright! Listen up! I am hereby serving notice that should Sarah Palin attempt to run for President in 2012, I will be filing multiple lawsuits to contest her eligibility. Let’s examine the facts, shall we:

    1. She has admitted that when she was a child, her family frequently went to Canada to partake of its superior socialist medical care
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/palin-in-hot-water-for-anecdote-that-her-family-saw-yukon-doctor/article1494080/

    Medical care of course includes giving birth. It is thus clear that Sarah Palin was born in Canada and is therefore ineligible to be President.

    2. She admits to being a hockey mom. Anyone who watched the recent Olympics has to admit that hockey (men’s and women’s) is a Canadian game. Further proof that Sarah is a Canuck.

    3. She did a major pipeline deal with a Canadian company. Wouldn’t a real American choose an American company?

    4. Look at a map. Alaska is clearly part of Canada (or maybe Russia).

    If she runs, I will be demanding her complete medical file, complete school and passport records and anything else I damn well please. In addition to demanding such records from the US federal governments and all 50 states, I will, of course demand such records from Ottawa as well. If they deny that they have any records on her, that will only confirm that they are in on the plot.

    Canadians have already infiltrated US television, movies and music. We can’t afford to allow an agent of the RCMP into the highest position in the government.

  32. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 9, 2010 at 1:08 pm #

    SvenMagnussen: I don’t disrepect you for not believing as I do.

    Calling someone an Obot, or saying that their views are “ridiculous” is being disrespectful.

  33. avatar
    Scientist March 9, 2010 at 1:16 pm #

    For example, it’s ridiculous to think a 10-year-old child would travel internationally and clear customs on their own.

    I used to travel overseas on business quite frequently and was on several flights with children 10 or even younger travelling alone. Once, in the lounge at Frankfurt airport I chatted briefly with a little girl who was travelling by herself from Cairo to LA, changing flights in Frankfurt. The Lufthansa hostesses took very good care of her. As long as a custodian puts them on the plane at departure and a pre-identified person meets them at arrival, no problem.

  34. avatar
    SFJeff March 9, 2010 at 1:17 pm #

    Sven- my point was that you make up theories but have no proof that anything you make up happened. And the theories you have require a huge faith that the least likely events happened at every step of the way.

    Now lets argue: “For example, it’s ridiculous to think a 10-year-old child would travel internationally and clear customs on their own”

    You provide no evidence, and what you cite just doesn’t match what I know. The friend of my daughter travelled from San Francisco to Japan by herself when she was 6 years old. There were good reasons for it, and I am still shocked, but it happened.

    “It is more likely that Barry Soetoro was identified as an Indonesian child abandoned or orphaned in Indonesia with US citizen grandparents living in Hawai’i.”

    No its not- but just show us some evidence that this happened.

    “The difference between you an me is that I don’t disrepect you for not believing as I do.”

    Sven, I don’t respect your posts because you present your theories as if they are supported by fact. You regularly post things as if they are fact, and when asked to provide any proof, you just never respond. That is intellectually dishonest.

    “I don’t disrepect citizens of a another country by not even entertaining the idea a person who has moved to become a permanent resident of their country,”

    Once again- you have no evidence that either young Barry Obama or his mother ever intended to become permanent residents, let alone citizens of Indonesia.

    Here is what I do know- I have travelled a lot in the world. I live in a city where literally thousands of my neighbors were born in foreign countries. I have American friends who live in foreign countries. I have friends who live in foreign countries. While there must be American’s who choose to move to Indonesia and other places to become citizens it is so rare I haven’t met any of them. American citizenship is one of the most valued assets in the world.

    I also happen to be a father. The idea that a 6 year old or 10 year old would be taken seriously as renouncing their U.S. citizenship is laughable or alarming depending on whether you take it seriously. Just as I do not think a child of that age should be allowed to be tatooed, I do not think a child of that age has the necessary judgement to renounce U.S. citizenship.

  35. avatar
    Rickey March 9, 2010 at 1:21 pm #

    SvenMagnussen says:

    For example, it’s ridiculous to think a 10-year-old child would travel internationally and clear customs on their own.

    Nonsense. You must not get out much. The airlines have published rules for unaccompanied children flying on international flights. For example, from Delta’s rules on children ages 5-14:

    Ensure that your child has all the required documents when traveling internationally. Some countries require special documentation, such as a notarized letter, stating that your child has permission to fly alone.

    http://www.delta.com/planning_reservations/special_travel_needs/services_for_children/children_traveling_alone/index.jsp

    This is what is so annoying about you birthers. You pull “facts” out of thin air (and here I’m being polite about the location), which then are debunked with five minutes of research.

  36. avatar
    SFJeff March 9, 2010 at 1:26 pm #

    And what about Palin’s parents? How do we know that they are really American citizens? And what proof do we have that they are really her parents? We would certainly need DNA tests of Sarah, her parents, children and husband.

    And where are the people who witnessed Palin’s birth? Speaking of that- I havent’ met anyone who remembers going to college with her. And we need photo’s of her in bikini’s from vacation too.

  37. avatar
    SvenMagnussen March 9, 2010 at 1:28 pm #

    That’s what is annoying about Obots, you’re quoting an airline rule in the year 2010 and applying to service provided in 1971.

    And you’re dismissive of an Indonesian school record which specifically states the student is an Indonesian National and zero US school records have been shown which indicate the student is a US citizen. We’re supposed to assume he was US citizen because he was enrolled in a private US high school.

  38. avatar
    Arliss March 9, 2010 at 1:40 pm #

    What an utter moron you are.

  39. avatar
    Bovril March 9, 2010 at 1:40 pm #

    For example, it’s ridiculous to think a 10-year-old child would travel internationally and clear customs on their own. Yet, Obots have completely bought into the story written in Obama’s autobiography.

    Ehhhhhh FAIL

    I am within 2 years of POTUS’s age and for my sins went to a British boarding school….Guess how I went to the Middle East to my folks posting at that age…….

    Dropped off at the train station sometimes with others off my age, sometimes not.

    Arrived at London Euston Station on my own and made my way via Underground to Heathrow Airport on my own.

    Checked in on my own with my very own passport as well as the old yellow cardboard UN vaccination booklet.

    Spent the next couple of hours like every other boarding school brat avoiding the BA “nannies” and having a most excellent time.

    Got on the flight on my own and got off at the other end on my own to meet my parents after clearing customs and immigration on my own.

    Pillock.

  40. avatar
    Rickey March 9, 2010 at 1:44 pm #

    SFJeff says:

    American citizenship is one of the most valued assets in the world.

    I have a friend from high school who married an Aussie while they were attending the University of Idaho. Their oldest daughter was born in the U.S. and after graduation they all moved to Sydney, where the daughter became a naturalized citizen of Australia. However, she has never given up her U.S. citizenship, and in fact a number of years ago she moved to New York, got a Social Security Number and a job.

    And of course there is no evidence to support Sven’s contention that Stanley Ann intended to become a permanent resident of Indonesia. In fact, Obama makes clear in his book that she felt a lot of loneliness after arriving there and her relationship with Lolo quickly became strained. Why would she give up her U.S. citizenship under those circumstances?

  41. avatar
    Mike March 9, 2010 at 1:45 pm #

    That’s what is annoying about Obots, you’re quoting an airline rule in the year 2010 and applying to service provided in 1971.And you’re dismissive of an Indonesian school record which specifically states the student is an Indonesian National and zero US school records have been shown which indicate the student is a US citizen. We’re supposed to assume he was US citizen because he was enrolled in a private US high school.

    Said document alos says that the child in question was born in Honolulu. You lose, Sven. You lose every time you post something…

  42. avatar
    Mike March 9, 2010 at 1:46 pm #

    Win! To you, sir, I award five internets.

  43. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 9, 2010 at 1:50 pm #

    SvenMagnussen: And you’re dismissive of an Indonesian school record which specifically states the student is an Indonesian National …

    I am dismissive of the Indonesian school record because officials of the school told Fox News that they routinely wrote down the nationality and religion of the father on the forms.

    SvenMagnussenand zero US school records have been shown which indicate the student is a US citizen.

    Assuming you are a US citizen, do you have a school record that indicates that you are a US citizen? Maybe you do; I’m just asking.

  44. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 9, 2010 at 1:51 pm #

    I always thought Palin was trying to mask a Russian accent.

  45. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 9, 2010 at 1:54 pm #

    SvenMagnussen: That’s what is annoying about Obots, you’re quoting an airline rule in the year 2010 and applying to service provided in 1971.

    No Sven. You said:

    For example, it’s ridiculous to think a 10-year-old child would travel internationally and clear customs on their own.

    You didn’t say anything about 1971. Are you now claiming that such travel was “ridiculous” in 1971 but “not ridiculous” in 2010?

    That’s ridiculous.

  46. avatar
    Rickey March 9, 2010 at 1:58 pm #

    SvenMagnussen says:

    That’s what is annoying about Obots, you’re quoting an airline rule in the year 2010 and applying to service provided in 1971.

    I traveled internationally many times in the late sixties and early seventies, and essentially the same rules were in effect. In addition, I have a friend who worked for Western Airlines from 1969 until it merged with Delta. He has confirmed that it was not unusual for unaccompanied minors to travel internationally in 1971. During that time I personally observed several children going through customs and immigration, accompanied only by an airline employee.

    And you’re dismissive of an Indonesian school record which specifically states the student is an Indonesian National and zero US school records have been shown which indicate the student is a US citizen. We’re supposed to assume he was US citizen because he was enrolled in a private US high school.

    It has already been established that the information about citizenship and religion on the unverified, non-certified school document refer to Lolo’s citizenship and religion, not Obama’s.

    Show us some proof that Obama became a citizen of Indonesia and that he renounced his U.S. citizenship. Until then, you’re just blowing hot air.

  47. avatar
    Rickey March 9, 2010 at 2:09 pm #

    Apparently there is some benefit to having an Official Passport because it clearly establishes that the holder is traveling on official government business.

    The State Department website suggest that it is a good idea for holders of Official Passports to carry a regular passport as well.

    “You may have both a valid regular fee passport and a valid no-fee tourist passport at the same time. You may want to take both types of passports with you, especially if you plan to take personal travel while overseas.”

    http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/nofee/nofee_836.html

    However, I see nothing that requires a Senator to apply for an Official Passport, so we do not know for certain if Obama even has an Official Passport – not that it matters.

  48. avatar
    misha March 9, 2010 at 2:18 pm #

    @Scott Brown: I am hoping the birthers continue to make noise. The more, the better for Obama. Several Republican office holders have jumped on the bandwagon, most recently Tennessee’s Ramsey.

    So keep it up guys. I’ll remember this every time I go into the voting booth. I’ll also remember what a minister in Sarah Palin’s church said to me, when I was in Anchorage for the Iditarod: “Auschwitz was divine retribution because you people have refused to accept G-d’s only son.”

  49. avatar
    G March 9, 2010 at 2:18 pm #

    The very reason and importance of a site like this and for why there sometimes idiots need to be responded to is because it is necessary to fight against lies, unsubstantiated rumors, slander, libel and false innuendo.

    There is an old saying that all you have to do is repeat a lie enough times and people will start to believe it.

    The only way to counter that is to not let the lies go unchallenged.

    Debunking conspiracy garbage has its place and its purpose, which is expressly what this site is about.

  50. avatar
    G March 9, 2010 at 2:20 pm #

    Excellent ideas.

  51. avatar
    misha March 9, 2010 at 2:41 pm #

    “I haven’t seen with my own two eyes, Australia for example”

    Then how do you know for sure, that “Austrailia” actually exists. It could very well be that “Austrailia” is an invention of several people’s conspiracy. Sorry, unless I can actually fly there and prove to myself, “Austrailia” is an invention. All the kangaroos I’ve seen are in zoos.

  52. avatar
    Black Lion March 9, 2010 at 2:48 pm #

    The bottom line is that Jeff was right. Sven has NEVER provided one piece of evidence to support any of his claims. All he gives us is wildly improbable scenarios regarding 6-10 year olds renouncing citizenships, supposed companies that would sponser “refugees” and get them SS numbers, and speculation of immigration documents that have never been proven to exist. And with providing that, he feels that this somehow is a legitimate theory even though he has no facts or evidence to support it. But he gets upset that we do not respect his so called “possible theory”. I guess Sven doesn’t understand that for a theory to be legitimate, you need something called evidence. Again in a year and a half all Sven has provided us is a very entertaining fictional account of what could have happened of many improbable scenarios played out. Which shows us the only thing that is ridiculous is anyone that would believe in his so called theories. Sorry Sven, epic fail.

  53. avatar
    misha March 9, 2010 at 3:01 pm #

    Scott: I am going to cut to the chase here. I do not care if Obama was born in Kenya, was born with dual citizenship (I have US/Israel), or was born on Krypton.

    His mother was a US citizen, and that’s close enough for me. Speaking of Israel, let’s look at their PMs:
    David Ben Gurion – Poland
    Golda Meir – Ukraine
    Menachem Begin – Russia

    Here are some fine NBCs:
    Timothy McVeigh
    Adam Gadahn
    Anwar al-Awlaki

  54. avatar
    misha March 9, 2010 at 3:15 pm #

    My wife and I took a flight from DC to San Diego. In the third seat, next to the aisle, was a 6-year-old girl, by herself. My wife talked to her, and she said “I’m going to spend the summer with my grandmother.”

    The airline appointed several people to watch her. There was one flight attendant assigned to her, on that flight.

    Then there were the Pullman porters. They always took care of white children travelling alone.

  55. avatar
    misha March 9, 2010 at 3:29 pm #

    She would have Russian accent. She can see Russia from back yard. ´а!

    I lived for awhile in Anchorage. You can only see Russian from the edge of the Bering Strait, and only on a perfectly clear day. The strait is about 450 miles from Anchorage, or her porch.

    I heard that myth all the time when I was there.

  56. avatar
    Whatever4 March 9, 2010 at 3:58 pm #

    I like that Sven thinks a 6-10 year old child could renounce his citizenship, but couldn’t fly internationally and clear customs by himself.

  57. avatar
    misha March 9, 2010 at 4:35 pm #

    Also, the Tooth Fairy brought me a very nice present last night.

  58. avatar
    richCares March 9, 2010 at 6:17 pm #

    sven and his sock puppets come to rattle cages, I can’t believe they are stupid enough to believe the crap they spout. they are just vying for a spot on “The Onion”.

    OR
    they hate Obama so much it destroyed their brains.

  59. avatar
    Scientist March 9, 2010 at 7:33 pm #

    Jeff- It really looks bad for Sarah.

    The case for her Canadian birth is much stronger than the case regarding Obama’s supposed birth in Kenya. Palin’s family lived in Sandpoint, Idaho, which is <1 hour from the border. Hawaii is at least a day away from Kenya (probably a few days in 1961). No passports were needed to cross into Canada until last year-driver's licenses were sufficient-few if any questions were asked about little kids travelling with their parents. A passport and possibly visas were needed for Kenya and you had to pass a full screening when re-entering the US. Canada has excellent medical care; Kenya not so much. What evidence is there that the Palins didn't go for a jaunt to British Columbia, pop out baby Sarah and just drive back into the US? None that I am aware of. She needs to answer the questions NOW.

  60. avatar
    SFJeff March 9, 2010 at 7:45 pm #

    Scientist- we will have to dig hard. The mainstream media has obviously been told to keep this quiet, and all the government officials are clearly intimidated by her- after all she is clearly comfortable with killing creatures she thinks needs to be dead.

    Why hasn’t she denied her Canadian birth? Why hasn’t she published her kindergarten records or her application for U.S. citizenship?

    I can tell you this for certain- she has never shown me her original long form birth certificate- that tells me all I need to know about her character.

    How many millions of dollars will she spend covering this up before those Palibots come to their senses?

  61. avatar
    Scientist March 9, 2010 at 8:12 pm #

    Jeff-I agree fully. Given the forces arrayed against us, we will obviously need first-class legal representation in our quest to expose Sarah. Who do we go with, Appuzo or Taitz?

  62. avatar
    SFJeff March 9, 2010 at 8:50 pm #

    Oh Taitz certainly. Mario doesn’t come of with quite the amount of foaming at the mouth zeal I want to see from an attorney.

    And remember with Taitz- every dismissal is a victory!

  63. avatar
    misha March 9, 2010 at 9:09 pm #

    Actually, these are legitimate doubts about Palin. When I was in Anchorage, I heard all the time “Sarah Palin? Is she for real?”

  64. avatar
    PaulG March 9, 2010 at 10:31 pm #

    Andrew Sullivan would be happy to see Trig’s birth certificate. Especially since Palin claims to have released it, but so far hasn’t yet done it.

  65. avatar
    Mario Apuzzo March 10, 2010 at 12:08 am #

    SFJeff,

    How cozy.

  66. avatar
    chufho March 10, 2010 at 12:36 am #

    Misha, good enough for you is where your argument falls apart , going thru life with blinders on will someday cost you dearly

  67. avatar
    misha March 10, 2010 at 12:49 am #

    chufho: Here’s my portrait with my blinders on.

    Thanks!

  68. avatar
    misha March 10, 2010 at 1:25 am #

    Do you think my cat wants to kill me?

  69. avatar
    chufho March 10, 2010 at 1:42 am #

    really, its like doc the heywood

  70. avatar
    misha March 10, 2010 at 1:48 am #

    “its like doc the heywood”

    Trains are running through my living room.

  71. avatar
    nbc March 10, 2010 at 1:52 am #

    How cozy is it to find out that Standing while not a real issue in traffic court, can be quite a problem in real cases?

  72. avatar
    Lupin March 10, 2010 at 3:16 am #

    You are certainly disrespecting our intelligence.

  73. avatar
    Lupin March 10, 2010 at 3:24 am #

    FWIW I went to religious school in Bordeaux (France) and the Good Fathers always put down the registering parent’s (usually the father) information in the child’s file. That seemed to be SOP.

    I might have mentioned this before.

  74. avatar
    Lupin March 10, 2010 at 3:28 am #

    I might be straying a little here but your 2012 Republican ticket offers lots of possibilities…

    Bobby Jindal, Sarah Palin, Mitt Romney… It looks like a slate made up by THE ONION.

    Wasn’t Romney the guy who tied up his dog on the top of his car when he went on vacation?

  75. avatar
    Greg March 10, 2010 at 6:34 am #

    I’d love to see a poll seeing who would win today, Obama or McCain.

    Can anyone imagine John I don’t know how many houses I have McCain doing better on the economy than Obama?

  76. avatar
    misha March 10, 2010 at 6:41 am #

    I am praying the ’12 ticket is Mormon Mitt and Kenneth The Page Piyush Jindal.

    Comedy gold.

  77. avatar
    Black Lion March 10, 2010 at 9:21 am #

    Greg, of course not…that is what is killing the GOP. They spent the past year making Obama look like everything from Hitler to Stalin. They blamed him for everything. They called him a usurper and a Muslim. And even with all of that he still has a high favorable rating and people for the most part support him. What the GOP has failed to realize is that the demographics of the US have changed and a so called new Southern strategy won’t get enough votes to defeat Obama. They also know if Healthcare is passed then Obama will be almost impossible to beat. The economy is doing better, with the surge in Afganistan there has been some real progress, and most of all the US is starting to get some international respect again. This spells doom for 2012 for the GOP. That is why this poll is so interesting. We all know that Zogby is like Rasmussen and traditionally skews towards the GOP, so to see those results has to be mind boggling for the right.

  78. avatar
    kimba March 10, 2010 at 9:21 am #

    Instead of engaging Sven and his friends when they haul in their old debunked rubbish and try to place it on the table like it’s shiny and new, we need to pull on our big girl/ boy panties and respond simply “Debunked. See Obama Conspiracy Archives” Re-debating it only reinforces for them it’s OK to pretend it wasn’t already debunked. I’ve all but stopped reading comments here because you can be almost certain by the 10th comment it will have descended into “Did too.” “Did not.” Barack Hussein Obama has been the President for almost 14 months. The Republicans in Congress f@cking hate him and everything he stands for. If he weren’t eligible, they would have ejected him from office by now.

  79. avatar
    SFJeff March 10, 2010 at 11:41 am #

    Fellow readers- I come to you with dire news. Since I have brought to the attention of the world that Sarah Palin is likely a Canadian citizen, or at best has unconfirmed citizenship, I have been attacked. Yes attacked.

    Yesterday, while working, suddenly my computer froze up- with no warning or explaination. When I restarted the computer the spreadsheet I was working on no longer had what I had input for the previous 10 minutes. This is clearly an attempt to silence me.

    In addition, since my initial post, I have had no contacts on my Facebook page- isn’t that suspicious? Because in the previous 2 months I had several contacts, but now nothing.

    Would any of the readers here please volunteer to research any possible connections between Palin and Facebook.

    In addition, I contacted a private investigator who advertized on Craigs List- I am willing to name him here- Dick Tracy- who according to his ad on Craigs list is a former CIA agent and former NY city police commisioner, so he is certainly qualified- to do some background checks on Sarah Palin. I told him to see if she had any fake social security numbers and I would pay him $5.00 for each one he found. So far he has found over 200 fake social security numbers for Sarah Palin- and he keeps finding more! I can’t afford to continue to pay for this research myself, so please, please, if you care at all about the United States, the Constitution, the Law or puppies, send me funds via my paypal account so I can pay Dick to keep digging up the dirt!

    Clearly the evidence is overwhelming that Sarah Palin was not born in the United States and has something to hide. Most damning of all- she still has not denied any she was born in Canada. Why won’t she respond to the millions of Americans who just want to know where she was born and why she kicks puppies?

    For the love of God and puppies- please send me cash to continue the fight.

  80. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 10, 2010 at 3:38 pm #

    I can get you Social Security numbers much more cheaply.

  81. avatar
    DCH March 10, 2010 at 4:57 pm #

    How do birthers explain the “Honolulu” birth notation on the school from from Jakarta?

    Which happens to match the OFFICIAL statements from the State of Hawaii.

    Which matches the COLB.

    Which matches what the POTUS has said since day one.

    In 18 months you all have provided no evidence and LOST sixty-five cases in a row and failed on 30 appeals. The doctor has been gracious. Its time to move on – the game is over.

  82. avatar
    Scientist March 10, 2010 at 5:22 pm #

    Fellow readers- I come to you with dire news. Since I have brought to the attention of the world that Sarah Palin is likely a Canadian citizen

    Jeff-I believe the record above will show that it is I, your humble correspondent, who first sounded the alarm over Ms Palin’s Canuckitude, though you ably jumped into the fray. Let us now proceed to have a Berg/Taitz, Donofrio/Apuzzo smakdown as to which of us is the true defender of the constitution and which is the sell out to the thugs from the Frozen North. Paypal at 30 paces?

  83. avatar
    SFJeff March 10, 2010 at 5:44 pm #

    While I think that our dear readers will recognize that I am the true champion of the Constitution, I want to warn you that she or her Anchorthugs may come after you next?

    Has anyone even investigated whether her grandparents are alive? And if they are not- what mysterous circumstances led to their demise?

    I fear for us all- her past is completely unknown, and as Misha notes, she is likely a Russian/Canadian mole, and I wonder if she might practice some native spiritist religion because clearly she is not a Christian.

  84. avatar
    thisoldhippie March 10, 2010 at 5:47 pm #

    SF Jeff – forget the puppies – I want to know why she allows the horrific slaughter of innocent turkeys to be broadcast on TV!!! And to top it off, she was there endorsing the kill! Obviously she is not American.

  85. avatar
    misha March 10, 2010 at 6:31 pm #

    “she is not a Christian”

    Absolutely true. This is a link to Palin’s actual church.

  86. avatar
    Chris in Dallas March 12, 2010 at 10:14 pm #

    I haven’t visited this site in, oh, about a year or so. I figured by that point that all that needed to be said was said. That the Birther train had left the station, destination nowhere. I still believe that to be true, so I’ve got to agree with the proprietor of this site. How many times can you possibly rehash the same stale “argument” over and over? What happens 10 years from now when we’ve got a different President? Are you still going to continue with this bullcorn? At some point you’ve got to call it a day. So, long story short, shut up Birthers. You lost.

  87. avatar
    TRUTH March 13, 2010 at 9:35 am #

    Liar

  88. avatar
    misha March 13, 2010 at 12:41 pm #

    TRUTH: Liar

    I will write a longer reply later. The fact is, Jews have always done better in progressive societies.

    Remember also, Israel was founded by socialists, and the foundation is the kibbutz, “collective.” Ben Gurion and others, wanted to found an egalitarian society.

    Read about this urban kibbutz, not far from where I live.