Main Menu

Did the Doc screw up?

On trial for screwing up

If you’ve hung around here long, you’ve seen me say a bazillion times that Hawaii did not allow out of state birth registrations until 1982. I’ve been saying this since a lawyer pointed out the “L 1982” at the bottom of the Hawaii Revised Statute § 338-17.8 on Registration of out of state births and explained to me what it meant. This was months before this blog began its operation in December of 2008. Not only I, but Obots unnumbered following my lead (or their own research), have said the same thing.

The Claim

A comment on the Free Republic forum reads:

Hawaii’s Territorial Law, Chapter 57 – “VITAL STATISTICS, I”, shown beginning pg 23 of 29, (the law in effect in 1961) allowed the parents (or grandparents or other relative) of baby’s [sic] born anywhere in the world to be eligible to apply for a Hawaiian birth certificate. A mailed-in form (without mention of a hospital, doctor, or midwife) signed by one of his grandparents (who forged the parent signature(s)) would have been enough to set up a birth record and a birth certificate at the Dept of Health. The Dept of Health would (presumably) then have automatically sent the names of the parents, their address as given on the mailed-in form , the gender of the child, and the date of birth to the Honolulu Advertiser and Star-Bulletin.

Vital Statistics Law in 1961

The 1955 Territorial Law as amended is indeed is the law in effect in 1961. Our problem, at least up until now, is that these laws were not on the Internet for public viewing. I’ve had a copy for a year or so, but not one that I had rights to publish. So if the comment from the Free Republic is true, then I am very much to blame for spreading false information that I had good reason to know wasn’t true. Did the Doc screw up?

I said “up until now” because a copy of those laws is now available on the Internet as an attachment to a request for judicial notice in the Hollister v Soetoro appeal, and this is the document linked to by the Free Republic article in support of the above. This is great because we can all get a look at this document for ourselves.

The Free Republic article points to “page 23 of 29”. Page 23 is just the beginning of the Vital Statistics statue in the court filing, and doesn’t point to anything specific, nor is there any text cited in the FR that would help us find the appropriate section. Perhaps the Hollister filing will be more specific.

The Hollister Appeal

Hollister attorney Hemenway titles his section: “THE TERRITORIAL LAW 57 AND ITS SIMILARITY TO THE 1982 LAW OF THE STATE OF HAWAII.” Sounds promising. After wading trough the usual pages of birther Attorney irrelevancy, I did finally find his claim:

Upon locating and being able to review the applicable territorial statute we found that it was not exactly the same as the act set out in the major revision and codification of 1982, although similar. What in fact the territorial statute in effect before the 1982 statute sets out is an even greater latitude enabling and entitling persons to register a child for up to a year after its birth and to do so, if not attended by a locally licensed physician or midwife, for the parents or one of them to fill out the birth certificate or for a “local registrar” to fill out a birth certificate “from anyone having knowledge of the birth.” Thus a child born outside of Hawaii and attended by a non-Hawaii licensed health care provider or born unattended could get a Hawaii birth certificate nonetheless. [Request for Judicial notice Court page numbers 9-10.

Essentially, all this says is that if someone, a doctor, a midwife, parents or others is willing to commit perjury, then fraud is possible. This is really no different than it is anywhere in the United States. What Hemenway fails to do is to cite administrative procedures in place that governed the local registrar’s duties and processes in such a case.

So no, the Doc did not screw up.

Citation of the Statute

Here is the section of the Law under discussion (that I have cited before):

§ 57-8. Compulsory registration of births.
Within the time prescribed by the board, a certificate of every birth shall be filed with the local registrar of the district in which the birth occurred, by the physician, midwife or other. legally authorized person in attendance at the bIrth; or if not so attended, by one of the parents. [R. L. 1945, s. 3100.09; add. L. 1949, c. 327, s. 9.]

§ 57-9. Local registrar to prepare birth certificate.
(a) If neither parent of the newborn child whose birth is unattended as above provided is able to prepare a birth certificate, the local registrar shall secure the necessary information from any person having knowledge of the birth and prepare and file the certificate.

There’s nothing here about mailing in the form, and certainly nothing that made fraudulent filers “eligible” to file on behalf of a foreign-born child. Further the only case in which a person other than the parents or legal attendant could file was if the parents were “unable” which clearly was not the case as both Obamas were alive and well and able to file the document themselves.

Indeed my World War II veteran father’s birth certificate was filed by his mother.

If the Free Republic is going to attack motherhood, can apple pie be far behind?

, , , , ,

341 Responses to Did the Doc screw up?

  1. avatar
    Ellid June 16, 2010 at 4:58 pm #

    Not to mention that I see nothing here that indicates that the child’s place of birth would still be listed as Hawaii and not, say, Lhasa or Buenos Aires.

  2. avatar
    Whatever4 June 16, 2010 at 6:07 pm #

    *Whew*

  3. avatar
    Expelliarmus June 16, 2010 at 6:50 pm #

    There is nothing whatsoever in that law that refers to or authorizes the registration of foreign births — it is just one more instance of birthers misreading, misunderstanding, and/or deliberately misrepresenting a law.

    The provisions relate to registration of births within the jurisdiction where the law applies.

    Sec. 57-8 specifically refers to the “district in which the birth occurred.”, and specifies that the certificate shall be filed by one of the parents “if not so attended”.

    Sec 57-9 refers to the situation where “neither parent” of an unattended birth “as above” (meaning, birth in the district) is able to provide the birth certificate — and puts the responsibility on the “local registrar” to “secure the necessary information from any person having knowledge” of the birth. So essentially that section requires the registrar to conduct some sort of investigation. (One assumes that would start with an attempt to locate the parents, if living).

    The next section, 57-10, sets for the procedures for foundlings.

    Sec 57-18 provides for delayed certificates, but is specific to “a person born in the Territory” and requires submission of “such proof as shall be required by the board.” (As I read it, its a little confusing, because it seems to require that the baby file the certificate of his own birth).

    Sec 57-19 makes it clear that a “delayed” filing is one that is submitted more than 30 days after birth; since we know from Obama’s COLB that his certificate was filed 4 days after birth, it clearly was not “delayed” in any case.

  4. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 16, 2010 at 7:12 pm #

    Whatever4: *Whew*

    My sentiments exactly. I decided that the most efficient thing would be to research the question while I wrote the article, so I didn’t know how it would end until I was finished.

  5. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 16, 2010 at 7:49 pm #

    James: If Obama had a long-form BC WE WOULD HAVE SEE BY NOW

    If Obama had a Kenyan birth certificate we would have seen it by now.

  6. avatar
    bob June 16, 2010 at 8:03 pm #

    James: We now know that there is no long-form BC (hospital BC) for Obama according to Tim Adams.

    No; we know that Tim Adams has said other, unnamed people told him there was no birth certificate.

    Hearsay, rumors, and gossip.

  7. avatar
    Dave June 16, 2010 at 8:07 pm #

    James: If Obama had a long-form BC WE WOULD HAVE SEE BY NOW.

    If you had a point to make, we would have heard it by now.

  8. avatar
    Northland10 June 16, 2010 at 8:31 pm #

    James: “There is no proof that I’ve seen that he was born in Honolulu, because the copy of the alleged birth record certainly doesn’t list any witnesses or the doctor who delivered him, and there’s no record that anyone knows he was born there. In fact, it appears that his mother or his grandparents somehow tried to make it a matter of record that he was born in Hawaii to make him a U.S. citizen.’

    Let’s help him with that quote shall we:

    “There is no proof that he was born anywhere but Honolulu, because the there is no copy of any birth record from Kenya, which is verified by the custodian of vital records and certainly not one that list any witnesses or the doctor who delivered him, and there’s no record that anyone knows he was born in Kenya. In fact, it appears that the birthers somehow tried to make it a matter of record that he was born in Kenya to unmake him a U.S. citizen.’

  9. avatar
    Northland10 June 16, 2010 at 8:34 pm #

    James: If Obama had a long-form BC WE WOULD HAVE SEE BY NOW.

    And if the birthers had the facts and truth on their side (along with real lawyers), they would have won something by now. They cannot even scrape a 1-69 record.

  10. avatar
    SvenMagnussen June 17, 2010 at 6:30 am #

    Madelyn IS the a of Barack Hussein Obama II and Stanley Ann Dunham is the sister of BHO II.

    Madelyn filed the registration document with the registrar’s office.

  11. avatar
    misha June 17, 2010 at 7:03 am #

    SvenMagnussen: Madelyn IS the a of Barack Hussein Obama II and Stanley Ann Dunham is the sister of BHO II.Madelyn filed the registration document with the registrar’s office.

    This is the definition of clinical insanity.

  12. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 17, 2010 at 3:30 pm #

    Ellid: Don’t tell me. It was a tall, lanky fellow in a pinstripe suit, Converse All-Stars, and geeky glasses who talked about things being wibbly-wobbly and timey-wimey, right?

    No, it was a fellow with a black beard and a nasty laugh, who went around shrinking people to doll size.

  13. avatar
    thisoldhippie June 17, 2010 at 4:43 pm #

    But the tall, lanky fellow showed up in a police box, did he not?

  14. avatar
    Ellid June 17, 2010 at 4:51 pm #

    @thisoldhippie –

    Bright blue one, yes. I think he was running from a bunch of those creepy Victorian statues that look like weeping angels.

    *EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!*

  15. avatar
    thisoldhippie June 17, 2010 at 5:27 pm #

    @Ellid
    I heard they were planting vegetables….”GERMINATE! GERMINATE! GERMINATE!”
    (Bad pun, sorry)
    Daughter is now into the the original ’60s episodes. You can find everything on YouTube.

  16. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 17, 2010 at 5:32 pm #

    Doc notes how effectively James hijacked the discussion (which was about an article on the Free Republic that misquoted Hawaiian law) and turned it into a discussion about Tim Allen.

    Fortunately, with comment nesting turned off, it should be possible to move these where they belong.

  17. avatar
    HellT June 17, 2010 at 5:45 pm #

    thorswitch:
    The Health Insurance Privacy and Portability Act (aka HIPPA) DOES NOT ALLOW such records to be released to anyone other than the person themselves or, if that person is deceased, to a *CLOSE* living relative.

    Well, HIPPA gets cited all over the ‘net to justify various data privacy restrictions. HIPPA does indeed restrict access to certain medical information, but it does not apply to every form of data, nor every agency that may hold or have access to such data.

    Most states implemented data privacy legislation decades before HIPPA was even drafted. Hawaii’s statute is called the Uniform Information Practices Act. It’s UIPA that comes into play here. It determines what information about an individual the public has a right to know, and what information the individual has a right to keep private.

    What birthers don’t seem to grasp is that in the USA, it is not customary for citizens to voluntarily give up any of their legal rights just because someone demands they do so. As a free society, we protect and uphold rights. It is not patriotic to bully and threaten anyone into giving up a right they hold as a free citizen.

  18. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 17, 2010 at 7:16 pm #

    HellT: Well, HIPPA gets cited all over the net to justify various data privacy restrictions. HIPPA does indeed restrict access to certain medical information, but it does not apply to every form of data, nor every agency that may hold or have access to such data.

    Yes, that’s right. HIPAA (The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996) controls access to “protected health information” with pretty much covers anything we would remotely call “medical” and related to an individual and the law applies to “covered entities”. A “covered entity” is a medical insurance company, a claims clearing house or any medical provider who submits electronic medical claims. Vital records agencies are generally treated as covered entities because they are usually under the State Health Department who provides medical care and bills insurance for it. It also applies by contractual extension to “business associates” of covered entities. I’ve heard that the HiTech Act, which is part of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) extends privacy coverage beyond the “covered entity” and puts some serious teeth into HIPAA.

    I don’t know if they ever reached a consensus about HIPAA and deceased persons.

  19. avatar
    Greg June 17, 2010 at 9:19 pm #

    The Health Insurance Privacy and Portability Act (aka HIPPA)

    It’s the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (aka HIPAA). One P, two A’s.

  20. avatar
    nc1 June 18, 2010 at 4:57 am #

    57-9. Local registrar to prepare birth certificate.
    (a) If neither parent of the newborn child whose birth is unattended as above provided is able to prepare a birth certificate, the local registrar shall secure the necessary information from any person having knowledge of the birth and prepare and file the certificate.
    ====================================================================

    Dr Conspiracy’s comment about this section of Hawaii law:

    ” There’s nothing here about mailing in the form, and certainly nothing that made fraudulent filers “eligible” to file on behalf of a foreign-born child. Further the only case in which a person other than the parents or legal attendant could file was if the parents were “unable” which clearly was not the case as both Obamas were alive and well and able to file the document themselves.”

    =====================================================================
    The law does not explicitly say anything about the means of communication between the person trying to register unattended birth and the local registrar. Whether it is acceptable to do it by mail or in person is irrelevant. In either case a fraudulent registration of foreign birth is possible.

    A scenario where a grandparent is willing to lie about the birthplace of ahis/her grandson cannot be discounted.

    We have not seen the long form birth certificate, therefore you can only speculate about the person who initiated the registration of Obama’s birth. Three options are still in play:
    a) Ceritifcate filed by the attending physician
    b) Certificate prepared by the local registrar based on information received from a parent
    c) Certificate prepared by the local registrar based on information received from another person (perhaps grandmother?)

    A long form birth certificate is a trivial document to produce (for a person born in the USA). If there was nothing to hide, Obama would have presented it to the US public long time ago.

  21. avatar
    dunstvangeet June 18, 2010 at 5:13 am #

    And of course, you have evidence of this lying, nc1. Please show me this proof of Madelyn Dunham lying. Not that it’s theoretically possible, but I want proof that there was actual fraud.

    I’m completely tired of these birthers bringing into question the integrity of people who cannot defend themselves. “Oh, Barack Obama’s mother and grandmother were liars who committed Fraud. Of course, I have no evidence of this, but it’s theoretically possible.”

    Next time you want to bring into doubt the duly registered birth and citizenship of another human being, you had better have the evidence to back it up, and not just do a burden of proof.

    We have a birth certificate, certified by the State of Hawaii, that says, among other things, that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii. And yet, you’re saying that multiple people were complicit in a 50-year cover up to get something that had no real benefit, other than 50 years down the road, him running for the Presidency?

    Barack Obama supplied a birth certificate. “It’s a valid Hawaii state birth Certificate” – Janice Okubo, Hawaii Department of Health.

    “…Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.” Cherome Fukino, Director of the Hawaii Department of Health

    “I certify that this is a true copy or abstract of the information on file [with] the State Department of Health” – Alvin T. Onaka, State Registrar.

    You have three people directly associated with the keeping of Birth Certificates telling you that it’s a valid Birth Certificate. You have Federal Agencies telling you that it’s meets all Federal Requirements for proving your place of Birth. You have the Republican Governor of Hawaii saying that Obama was born in Hawaii. Yet, you want to go off into speculation with absolutely no evidence that it’s possible that someone 50 years ago, committed fraud with no real purpose other than setting it up that someone 50 years down the road could run for President? I mean every mother believes her kid could become the next President of the United States, but you’re telling me that it was so important to Stanley Ann Durham that she committed fraud just so 50 years down the line, her African-American Baby could be President of the United States?

    Yeah right.

  22. avatar
    Dr. David Goliath June 18, 2010 at 5:55 am #

    nc1: 57-9. Local registrar to prepare birth certificate.
    (a) If neither parent of the newborn child whose birth is unattended as above provided is able to prepare a birth certificate, the local registrar shall secure the necessary information from any person having knowledge of the birth and prepare and file the certificate.
    ====================================================================Dr Conspiracy’s comment about this section of Hawaii law:
    ” There’s nothing here about mailing in the form, and certainly nothing that made fraudulent filers “eligible” to file on behalf of a foreign-born child. Further the only case in which a person other than the parents or legal attendant could file was if the parents were “unable” which clearly was not the case as both Obamas were alive and well and able to file the document themselves.”
    =====================================================================
    The law does not explicitly say anything about the means of communication between the person trying to register unattended birth and the local registrar. Whether it is acceptable to do it by mail or in person is irrelevant. In either case a fraudulent registration of foreign birth is possible.
    A scenario where a grandparent is willing to lie about the birthplace of ahis/her grandson cannot be discounted.We have not seen the long form birth certificate, therefore you can only speculate about the person who initiated the registration of Obama’s birth. Three options are still in play:
    a) Ceritifcate filed by the attending physician
    b) Certificate prepared by the local registrar based on information received from a parent
    c) Certificate prepared by the local registrar based on information received from another person (perhaps grandmother?)
    A long form birth certificate is a trivial document to produce (for a person born in the USA).If there was nothing to hide, Obama would have presented it to the US public long time ago.

    d) certificate prepared and filed by court order after a hearing, i.e. adoption annulment.

  23. avatar
    Sef June 18, 2010 at 6:24 am #

    nc1: 57-9. Local registrar to prepare birth certificate.
    (a) If neither parent of the newborn child whose birth is unattended as above provided is able to prepare a birth certificate, the local registrar shall secure the necessary information from any person having knowledge of the birth and prepare and file the certificate.
    ====================================================================Dr Conspiracy’s comment about this section of Hawaii law:
    ” There’s nothing here about mailing in the form, and certainly nothing that made fraudulent filers “eligible” to file on behalf of a foreign-born child. Further the only case in which a person other than the parents or legal attendant could file was if the parents were “unable” which clearly was not the case as both Obamas were alive and well and able to file the document themselves.”
    =====================================================================
    The law does not explicitly say anything about the means of communication between the person trying to register unattended birth and the local registrar. Whether it is acceptable to do it by mail or in person is irrelevant. In either case a fraudulent registration of foreign birth is possible.
    A scenario where a grandparent is willing to lie about the birthplace of ahis/her grandson cannot be discounted.We have not seen the long form birth certificate, therefore you can only speculate about the person who initiated the registration of Obama’s birth. Three options are still in play:
    a) Ceritifcate filed by the attending physician
    b) Certificate prepared by the local registrar based on information received from a parent
    c) Certificate prepared by the local registrar based on information received from another person (perhaps grandmother?)
    A long form birth certificate is a trivial document to produce (for a person born in the USA).If there was nothing to hide, Obama would have presented it to the US public long time ago.

    nc1, you are quoting laws, but you have no knowledge whatsoever of the implementing policies, processes & procedures used by the State of HI. Until you can do this your off-the-wall scenarios are valueless.

  24. avatar
    Scientist June 18, 2010 at 7:39 am #

    nc1: A long form birth certificate is a trivial document to produce (for a person born in the USA).

    Actually, no. Hawaii no longer issues long forms. Assuming the original one that Obama had is lost, then the only option is for someone to actually go to the DOH offices in Honolulu and examine the file. Since that is what the state officials have already done and you don’t believe them, what would be gained by sending someone else? I know what you will say-send Orly Taitz. Well, a bunch of us trust her a whole lot less than you trust the officials of the state. Besides, neither she nor any of the birthers have been appointed keepers of the records. Those who in fact have been have spoken. What motivation would they have to lie? And if you want to say they have all, every last one, been bought off, then I will say the same about you and Orly and the whole crew.

    So, it is a far from trivial matter and there is no reason for the President of the United States to take notice of this nonsense. He answers to the whole people at the due time and place, not to a bunch of malcontents. He owes you zip.

    Finally, you are late to the party. We had a long discussion here a few weeks ago. There was simply no motivation for a US citizen who gave birth abroad to have her parents risk their careers and possibly jail to fraudulently register a birth in the US when there were perfectly sound legal options:
    1. Registering the child at the US Embassy. I am aware of the statutes in place at the time, but it is not clear how the courts would have applied them. In addition, there were certainly grounds to consider the validity of the Obama-Dunham marriage in doubt, and if she were considered unmarried, then ciitizenship would have automatically passed to any children, regardless of where they were born.
    2. Bringing the child with her to the US as a non-citizen (which any US citizen has an automatic right to do with their natural child) and petitioning for immediate naturalization. Failing that, the child could live in the US as a permanent resident alien and petition for naturalization themselves when they reached the age of majority. They would be able to do everything a US citizen child could do-go to school, play Little League, join the Boy Scouts, get financial aid for college.

    So, you are throwing around accusations of criminal activity by persons who are dead and unable to defend themselves. You lack both evidence of such crimes or any motivation. That is simply shameful. Too bad you are incapable of feeling shame.

  25. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 18, 2010 at 8:02 am #

    nc1: A scenario where a grandparent is willing to lie about the birthplace of ahis/her grandson cannot be discounted.

    The possibility of fraud is not evidence of fraud. You have no evidence. Your cause is bankrupt.

  26. avatar
    Sef June 18, 2010 at 9:05 am #

    nc1: A scenario where a grandparent is willing to lie about the birthplace of ahis/her grandson cannot be discounted.

    Hey, nc1, why don’t you take your fraud ideas to the Hawaiian police. This, of course, would be a state matter, not federal. Let us know how that turns out.

  27. avatar
    Greg June 18, 2010 at 1:01 pm #

    Let’s play pretend for a second, nc1. Imagine for a moment that you get the birth certificate and your wildest fantasies are fulfilled. It’s a home birth, attested to by Grandma Dunham.

    Now what?

    You still haven’t got any evidence that Grandma Dunham lied. At best, you’ve got evidence that it was a home birth attested to by Grandma Dunham.

    You still have to prove that Obama was born somewhere else. The birth certificate doesn’t do that. It says Obama was born in Honolulu. The birth certificate, even if signed by Grandma Dunham doesn’t even cast doubt on the birth certificate – you can’t use the fact that it was attested to by Grandma to get further discovery! You need the birth certificate to say that it was attested to by someone other than a physician plus some evidence that Obama was born somewhere else. And you simply don’t have any credible evidence, nothing that you could go into court and present to a judge!

  28. avatar
    BatGuano June 18, 2010 at 2:08 pm #

    A scenario where a grandparent is willing to lie about the birthplace of ahis/her grandson cannot be discounted.

    how does this differ from the laws of any other state or the eligibility of any other president ?

    was johnson born in mexico ? did kennedy’s grandparents hide his berlin birth ? why don’t we have proof that reagan wasn’t born in cuba ?

  29. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 18, 2010 at 3:38 pm #

    Greg (@ nc1): And you simply don’t have any credible evidence, nothing that you could go into court and present to a judge!

    And nothing to justify going around the Internet demanding a birth certificate.

  30. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 18, 2010 at 3:47 pm #

    BatGuano: did kennedy’s grandparents hide his berlin birth ?

    Yes as you note, John Kennedy admitted “I am a Citizen of Berlin” in his famous 1963 speech. We even have it in his own handwriting! We should keep this in mind when we take literally statements about Barack Obama’s Kenyan heritage.

    See: Did President Kennedy Say He Was a Jelly Doughnut?

  31. avatar
    misha June 18, 2010 at 4:42 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Did President Kennedy Say He Was a Jelly Doughnut?

    From Monty Python:

    Oscar Wilde: Your Majesty is like a big jam doughnut with cream on the top.
    Prince of Wales: I beg your pardon?
    Oscar Wilde: Well, Your Highness, what I meant was that, like a doughnut, um, your arrival gives us pleasure and your departure only makes us hungry for more.

  32. avatar
    ellid June 18, 2010 at 4:47 pm #

    Even if the President *was* born at home, the practice then (and now) was to take a mother and newborn straight to the hospital so the baby can be examined by a doctor, the placenta delivered, and the mother checked for hemorrhage, placental remnants in the uterus, and so on. Remember, we’re talking a teenager in 1961, when “babies are born in hospitals” was simply what one did, especially in urban areas like Honolulu.

  33. avatar
    nc1 June 19, 2010 at 2:41 am #

    dunstvangeet: And of course, you have evidence of this lying, nc1. Please show me this proof of Madelyn Dunham lying. Not that it’s theoretically possible, but I want proof that there was actual fraud.I’m completely tired of these birthers bringing into question the integrity of people who cannot defend themselves. “Oh, Barack Obama’s mother and grandmother were liars who committed Fraud. Of course, I have no evidence of this, but it’s theoretically possible.”Next time you want to bring into doubt the duly registered birth and citizenship of another human being, you had better have the evidence to back it up, and not just do a burden of proof.We have a birth certificate, certified by the State of Hawaii, that says, among other things, that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii. And yet, you’re saying that multiple people were complicit in a 50-year cover up to get something that had no real benefit, other than 50 years down the road, him running for the Presidency?Barack Obama supplied a birth certificate. “It’s a valid Hawaii state birth Certificate” – Janice Okubo, Hawaii Department of Health.“…Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.” Cherome Fukino, Director of the Hawaii Department of Health“I certify that this is a true copy or abstract of the information on file [with] the State Department of Health” – Alvin T. Onaka, State Registrar.You have three people directly associated with the keeping of Birth Certificates telling you that it’s a valid Birth Certificate. You have Federal Agencies telling you that it’s meets all Federal Requirements for proving your place of Birth. You have the Republican Governor of Hawaii saying that Obama was born in Hawaii. Yet, you want to go off into speculation with absolutely no evidence that it’s possible that someone 50 years ago, committed fraud with no real purpose other than setting it up that someone 50 years down the road could run for President? I mean every mother believes her kid could become the next President of the United States, but you’re telling me that it was so important to Stanley Ann Durham that she committed fraud just so 50 years down the line, her African-American Baby could be President of the United States?Yeah right.

    There are several factual errors in your post.

    1. Okubo said that COLB posted on the web looks like a Hawaii COLB. She did not confirm its authenticity. She was asked the direct question (many times) whether DoH issued the COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007 and of course she never confirmed it.

    2. Alvin Onaka never confirmed it either. I could create an image of a fake Hawaii COLB with Onaka’s signature pasted in the image. It would not mean that Onaka stands behind it.

    3. Dr. Fukino did say that Obama was born in Hawaii but we don’t know the source she used for her statement. She does not want to comment about it.
    At best you have one government official saying that Obama was born in Hawaii.

    We know that government officials never lie, don’t we?

    Do you remember statement given by the CIA director George Tennet few years ago? When asked about WMDs in Iraq he said that the case was a “slam dunk”. Based on this claim Colin Powell gave a presentation to the UN, even describing photos with facilities where WMDs were held.

    We know how that story ended.

    Without knowing what Fukino used as a basis for her statement we simply don’t know whether she told the truth or not.

    I don’t have a proof that Obama’s grandmother filed a false birth registration, but I don’t have a proof that Fukino told the truth either.

    Nobody is saying that the run for POTUS was the motivation for filing a fraudulent birth registration 50 years ago.
    Perhaps grandparents simply wanted him to have a US issued birth certificate. If Obama was born abroad, he would not have been a US citizen at birth because his mother was too young to confer her US citizenship to him and her husband (Obama’s father) was a British citizen.

  34. avatar
    nc1 June 19, 2010 at 3:10 am #

    Scientist: Actually, no. Hawaii no longer issues long forms. Assuming the original one that Obama had is lost, then the only option is for someone to actually go to the DOH offices in Honolulu and examine the file. Since that is what the state officials have already done and you don’t believe them, what would be gained by sending someone else? I know what you will say-send Orly Taitz. Well, a bunch of us trust her a whole lot less than you trust the officials of the state. Besides, neither she nor any of the birthers have been appointed keepers of the records. Those who in fact have been have spoken. What motivation would they have to lie? And if you want to say they have all, every last one, been bought off, then I will say the same about you and Orly and the whole crew.So, it is a far from trivial matter and there is no reason for the President of the United States to take notice of this nonsense. He answers to the whole people at the due time and place, not to a bunch of malcontents. He owes you zip. Finally, you are late to the party. We had a long discussion here a few weeks ago. There was simply no motivation for a US citizen who gave birth abroad to have her parents risk their careers and possibly jail to fraudulently register a birth in the US when there were perfectly sound legal options:1. Registering the child at the US Embassy. I am aware of the statutes in place at the time, but it is not clear how the courts would have applied them. In addition, there were certainly grounds to consider the validity of the Obama-Dunham marriage in doubt, and if she were considered unmarried, then ciitizenship would have automatically passed to any children, regardless of where they were born.2. Bringing the child with her to the US as a non-citizen (which any US citizen has an automatic right to do with their natural child) and petitioning for immediate naturalization. Failing that, the child could live in the US as a permanent resident alien and petition for naturalization themselves when they reached the age of majority. They would be able to do everything a US citizen child could do-go to school, play Little League, join the Boy Scouts, get financial aid for college.So, you are throwing around accusations of criminal activity by persons who are dead and unable to defend themselves. You lack both evidence of such crimes or any motivation. That is simply shameful. Too bad you are incapable of feeling shame.

    Hawaii DoH changed the rules and stopped issuing long form birth certificates in June 2009. The reason is very obvious – they are protecting Obama. At the time when the COLB image was first presented to the public nobody stopped Obama from presenting the copy of the original document. Even today he could authorize the release of the original.

    It is shameful that you are defending a habitual liar Obama. The truth is very easy to determine. Documents in Hawaii archives (DoH and Kapiolani Hospital) would tell us whether the official birthplace story is true or not.
    We are talking about the national security issue here. There should be no doubt whatsoever whether the person commanding the US military is eligible for the office.

    A minister in Kenyan government said that Obama was born in Kenya. This happened on March 25, 2010 in the Kenyan Parliament. Did he indirectly accuse the people who cannot defend themselves (Obama’s grandparents) of commiting a fraud? Why has Obama chosen to ignore the honor of his family. He could clear their good name in an instant (if the official birthplace story were true).

  35. avatar
    nc1 June 19, 2010 at 3:24 am #

    Greg: Let’s play pretend for a second, nc1. Imagine for a moment that you get the birth certificate and your wildest fantasies are fulfilled. It’s a home birth, attested to by Grandma Dunham. Now what? You still haven’t got any evidence that Grandma Dunham lied. At best, you’ve got evidence that it was a home birth attested to by Grandma Dunham. You still have to prove that Obama was born somewhere else. The birth certificate doesn’t do that. It says Obama was born in Honolulu. The birth certificate, even if signed by Grandma Dunham doesn’t even cast doubt on the birth certificate – you can’t use the fact that it was attested to by Grandma to get further discovery! You need the birth certificate to say that it was attested to by someone other than a physician plus some evidence that Obama was born somewhere else. And you simply don’t have any credible evidence, nothing that you could go into court and present to a judge!

    It is quite likely that a scenario you described would be followed with a request for an official investigation in Congress. Hopefully in November 2010 the control of Congrss will swing back to GOP. Who knows, perhaps a judge could find a spine and order a discovery to proceed in one of the current eligibility lawsuits.
    Based on the number of proven lies told by Obama so far, I have no doubt that any investigation would uncover a mountain of other lies about his past.

  36. avatar
    nc1 June 19, 2010 at 3:52 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The possibility of fraud is not evidence of fraud. You have no evidence. Your cause is bankrupt.

    There should not be even a possibility that the Commander in Chief of US military is not eligible for the office.

    Obama knows that an offical investigation would destroy his case – that is why he has been fighting for the dismissal of all eligibility lawsuits.

  37. avatar
    misha June 19, 2010 at 5:08 am #

    nc1: Based on the number of proven lies told by Obama so far, I have no doubt that any investigation would uncover a mountain of other lies about his past.

    OK, let’s look at Shrub, who on the evolutionary scale is slightly above a dog. No offense to canines. They make great pets; I just would not have a dog as a US president.

    To paraphrase Samuel Johnson: George Bush as president is like a dog walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all.

    How about Bush’s DUI misdemeanor conviction: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/bushdui1.html

    How about God told me to invade Iraq.

    That’s a knee slapper.

    Know why Bush and Palin support Israel? So their lord will come back. That’s why they gave the settlers and their fascist politicians carte blanche. The Israeli right wing really believe in ’12 there will be President Palin, and they’ll bomb Gaza and Iran into the Stone Age. That will start Armageddon. They believe that nonsense, the way I believe the earth revolves around the sun. What do Israelis think about Armageddon, and the whole scenario? They regard evangelicals as useful idiots.

    Obama owes the malcontents zip.

  38. avatar
    Majority Will June 19, 2010 at 8:56 am #

    Ellid, you were right.

  39. avatar
    Greg June 19, 2010 at 10:00 am #

    nc1: There should not be even a possibility that the Commander in Chief of US military is not eligible for the office.

    Like when George W. Bush lost the 2000 election, but was installed by the Supreme Court?

    Or how his Vice President was really a resident of Texas, which should have cost him the electoral votes of that state since he and the President were from the same state?

    And, Al Gore? He should never have been VP, since he was born in DC, not one of the states. Bill Clinton’s father died in suspicious circumstances when Bill was little. Reagan was born on the second floor of a commercial building! His parents were close enough in lineage to Ireland and Scotland that he was probably born a British subject. George Bush Sr. actually ran the CIA, who knows what he did to his birth certificate while working there! His dad was managing partner of the international investment firm Brown Brothers. They claim he was born at home in Milton, MA. Jimmy Carter was the first President born in a hospital in 1924, a time when it wasn’t common to be born in a hospital. How convenient! What is he hiding with that so-called hospital birth? His grandfather fought for the Confederacy. The 14th Amendment forbids anyone who gave aid and comfort to our countries enemies or fought against us. Are we sure that Carter’s grandfather’s ineligibility to serve doesn’t rub off on him? Gerald Ford was born at home in Nebraska, which might as well be Canada. Richard Nixon claims to have been born at home in California. Is anyone really born in California? It’s less than 2 and a half hours to the Mexican border. Tijuana, anyone?

    When your definition of “possible” is as lax as the birthers, a lot of things become possible. With a little thought, you can figure out how it has been “possible” that each and every President has been ineligible.

    If prosecutors had to prove guilt beyond all birthers’ possibility, no one would ever go to jail. There’s a reason they only have to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt!

  40. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 19, 2010 at 10:13 am #

    nc1: There should not be even a possibility that the Commander in Chief of US military is not eligible for the office.

    If you define “possibility” as “anything I can imagine no matter how crazy, continuing year after year, even when proven wrong over and over just because I am too stubborn to listen to reason,” then I would not agree with you.

  41. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 19, 2010 at 10:17 am #

    nc1: It is quite likely that a scenario you described would be followed with a request for an official investigation in Congress.

    I have decided that Freedom of Speech is a very precious right and that I should withhold it from anyone who cannot prove that they are not a paid agent of Islamic terrorists, set on this blog to undermine the United States government and cripple our response to terrorism. Where’s your proof that you are not one of these?

  42. avatar
    Ellid June 19, 2010 at 11:09 am #

    Dr. C –

    There was a lot of speculation on the Washington Independent that nc1, there known as Naturalizedcitizen, was actually an Eastern European agent of some sort. S/he admitted being from the Balkans and is most likely a Serbian or just possibly a Moldovan. S/he also repeatedly refused requests to produce identification papers or any documentation that s/he was NOT Orly Taitz, despite quite a bit of circumstantial evidence that at the very least s/he became extremely upset when someone made a reference to dentistry or excessive use of ocular makeup products.

    Regardless, it looks like s/he’s here, and still spouting exactly the same long-discredited arguments s/he did over on the Independent. Alas.

  43. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 19, 2010 at 11:15 am #

    nc1: There should not be even a possibility that the Commander in Chief of US military is not eligible for the office.

    Well I suppose that it possible that (to use the words of Charles Dickens): “You may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of underdone potato.” Can you prove that you are not one of these, that I should answer you?

  44. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 19, 2010 at 11:18 am #

    nc1: It is quite likely that a scenario you described [Obama birth certificate of a birth at home] would be followed with a request for an official investigation in Congress.

    “Investigate” what? Home births are perfectly legal.

  45. avatar
    Scientist June 19, 2010 at 1:34 pm #

    nc1: A minister in Kenyan government said that Obama was born in Kenya. This happened on March 25, 2010 in the Kenyan Parliament.

    Legislators all over the world often spout nonsense. It’s an occupational hazard. Why, just the other day, Congressman Joe Barton apologized to BP. Apparently, we should be applauding them, not criticizing them, for destroying the Gulf, as well as the many other criminal acts they have committed over the last several years. I can’t wait until Monday, when Cong. Barton apologizes to the Mafia and Al Qaeda.

  46. avatar
    nc1 June 19, 2010 at 6:09 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: “Investigate” what? Home births are perfectly legal.

    Home birth are legal – the question is why would you trust that this is what happened in Obama’s case. If it turned out that the official birthplace story were a lie, it is a common sense that there should be an investigation to confirm the real place of birth.

    Such an investigation should also look into the other documents that would confirm or deny official claims about Obama’s citizenship (passport used for travel abroad while in college, legitimacy of SSN number from CT,…)

  47. avatar
    BatGuano June 19, 2010 at 6:21 pm #

    nc1:
    If it turned out that the official birthplace story were a lie….

    …… just waiting on that pesky evidence.

  48. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 19, 2010 at 6:22 pm #

    nc1: Home birth are legal – the question is why would you trust that this is what happened in Obama’s case.

    Why would you not? One doesn’t “investigate” things with a rational basis for the investigation. The totality of the “born in Kenya” story is rumors and manufactured fakes, and easily proven fakes at that. Just because you believe it doesn’t mean that anyone we have elected would believe it. Whatever I think of Republicans in general, I do not think that there any appreciable number of them in Congress so out of touch with the normal way of telling fact from fantasy that you would ever have an investigation even if the entire Congress were Republican. The only one who has done a public investigation is Rev. Manning, and that should tell you something about the connection between reality and Obama conspiracy theories.

    It’s been two years since the COLB was published. If there was a smoking gun, don’t you think it would have appeared by now?

  49. avatar
    nc1 June 19, 2010 at 7:13 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: If you define “possibility” as “anything I can imagine no matter how crazy, continuing year after year, even when proven wrong over and over just because I am too stubborn to listen to reason,” then I would not agree with you.

    There is nothing crazy about questioning Obama’s place of birth. An image of a COLB posted on the web is not a convincing evidence. The DoH and Obama’s campaign behavior add fuel to the fire. Only an Obama apologist could approve the hiding of a trivial document like the long form birth certificate.

  50. avatar
    G June 19, 2010 at 7:23 pm #

    nc1:
    There is nothing crazy about questioning Obama’s place of birth.An image of a COLB posted on the web is not a convincing evidence. The DoH and Obama’s campaign behavior add fuel to the fire. Only an Obama apologist could approve the hiding of a trivial document like the long form birth certificate.

    So sayeth the crazy birther.

    All actual evidence – the COLB, statements by actual HI officials, Obama’s autobiography, the newspaper accounts of his birth – all clearly point to the same thing: Born in Honolulu, HI

    There is no credible evidence otherwise.

    Your “long form” cries are just red-herring nonsense.

    All fields on the COLB come from the long form. The only thing that matters to the NBC issue here is place of birth. The certified HI COLB for Obama answers this clearly: : Born in Honolulu, HI . End of story!

    Therefore, the “long form” would not say any different and no other fields of information are relevant to this Constitutional issue.

    So, you FAIL. Again.

  51. avatar
    Expelliarmus June 19, 2010 at 7:56 pm #

    nc1: it is a common sense that there should be an investigation to confirm the real place of birth.

    There is a system in place in the US and most other parts of the world that was implemented in the early part of the 20th century in order to anticipate and resolve the problem of confirming place of birth. It’s called “registration”.

    Here is the definitive, incontrovertible proof that Obama was born in Hawaii:
    http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/obama.html

  52. avatar
    Greg June 19, 2010 at 7:59 pm #

    nc1: An image of a COLB posted on the web is not a convincing evidence.

    69 million people were convinced enough of Obama’s eligibility to vote for him. They probably figured that it was unreasonable to expect their own personal copy of the COLB.

  53. avatar
    Scientist June 19, 2010 at 8:08 pm #

    nc1: There is nothing crazy about questioning Obama’s place of birth

    Non-crazy people are capable of distinguishing between a campaign, where the candidate’s history is pored over, and the time in office, when non-crazy people focus on policy issues. Non-crazy people know a lost cause when they see it. What has your questioning achieved? Nothing. Even many of those who claim they aren’t sure where Obama was born, don’t really care and aren’t convinced it matters. Certainly no one who matters seems to be worried about it-neither those who support him nor those who oppose him.

    Non-crazy people accept reality and expend their energies where they can accomplish something.

  54. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 19, 2010 at 8:10 pm #

    nc1: An image of a COLB posted on the web is not a convincing evidence.

    Well it’s not convincing to you maybe, but it’s convincing to me, and it was convincing to the Voters, the Electoral College and Congress, the people who decide these things. Until the inmates gain control of the asylum, there’s not going to be an “investigation.”

  55. avatar
    AnotherBird June 19, 2010 at 8:11 pm #

    nc1:
    There should not be even a possibility that the Commander in Chief of US military is not eligible for the office.

    So that that is the basis for birthers arguments … possibilities. An interesting choice of words, but “possibility” is used just to confuse the issue.

    “It shouldn’t be possible for a former oil industry executive to work for a government agency that inspects the oil industry.” Is a valid argument. The reason is that the same expresses an opinion of an individual who knows two facts. One is that an individual was a former oil industry executive. The second is that that same individual works for a government agency that inspects the oil industry. It is an issue because it was possible “for a former oil industry executive to work for a government agency that inspects the oil industry.”

    So what is being suggested is that there “a possibility that the Commander in Chief of US military is not eligible for the office.”

    With the current and previous presidents confirmed, it is hard to understand what this “possibility” is.

    It will be interesting to hear what that possibility is.

  56. avatar
    Scientist June 19, 2010 at 8:27 pm #

    nc1: it is a common sense that there should be an investigation to confirm the real place of birth.

    How would you investigate something that happened 50 years ago, to which there are no living eyewitnesses except the President himself and he doesn’t remember his own birth any more than you or I? If Kenya says they have no records, that effectively ends the investigation. You can’t subpoena anything or anyone there anyway. It’s a non-starter. It would waste taxpayer’s money and time that should be spent addressing real issues. If you don’t like Obama, work for one of his opponents in 2012; that’s how democracy works.

  57. avatar
    AnotherBird June 19, 2010 at 8:39 pm #

    nc1:
    An image of a COLB posted on the web is not a convincing evidence.

    That is what some people fail to understand. It isn’t the image or picture that is important, but the fact that it presents that is important. However, with Obama being included on all 50 states ballots means that those states accepted his Hawaiian birth as sufficient proof as natural born status.

    The election is over and the document in question has been confirmed as authentic a couple of years ago. In a country based on law an image of COLB still posted for 2 years is stronger proof that when it was originally posted.

  58. avatar
    richCares June 19, 2010 at 9:09 pm #

    hey nc1, the conspiracy is really deep. My wife just took the test for US Citizenship. One of the questions was who is president. She answered Barack Obama, which was marked as correct. You better get cracking before it is too late.

  59. avatar
    misha June 19, 2010 at 9:18 pm #

    richCares: My wife just took the test for US Citizenship. One of the questions was who is president. She answered Barack Obama, which was marked as correct.

    True story: several years ago, I was in asthmatic respiratory distress, and was admitted to Temple University Hospital. A resident came into my room, and wanted to gauge my lucidity.

    She asked, “do you know who the president is?” I responded, “Karl Rove.” She then said, “OK, you’ll be fine.”

  60. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 19, 2010 at 10:53 pm #

    Scientist: How would you investigate something that happened 50 years ago, to which there are no living eyewitnesses except the President himself and he doesn’t remember his own birth any more than you or I?

    While I cannot be sure it exists, they could subpoena the Kapi’olani hospital birth registry. Typically these are kept in perpetuity. That would sink the “born in Kenya” boat really fast.

  61. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 19, 2010 at 11:28 pm #

    nc1: Home birth are legal – the question is why would you trust that this is what happened in Obama’s case. If it turned out that the official birthplace story were a lie, it is a common sense that there should be an investigation to confirm the real place of birth.

    The same thing that would put up a red flag should the birth certificate say “unattended birth” is also the thing that makes it virtually impossible for this to be the case.

    In January of 2009, the Kapi’olani hospital celebrated its 100th anniversary. President Barack Obama sent a congratulatory letter to the hospital in which he called the hospital “the place of my birth.” Congressman Abercrombie read the letter aloud to the Centennial celebration dinner, with Hawaii Governor Lingle in attendance. You might say that the President making this claim is not evidence, but the hospital publicizing the letter in their magazine [Page 6] and reading it aloud at their celebration is. There is no doubt where Barack Obama was born, none whatsoever.

  62. avatar
    Rickey June 19, 2010 at 11:29 pm #

    nc1:
    It is quite likely that a scenario you described would be followed with a request for an official investigation in Congress.

    Really? And how would Congress go about conducting an investigation of a home birth in Hawaii 49 years ago? Obama’s mother is dead; Obama’s father is dead; Obama’s grandparents are dead. Obama has no memory of his birth. So if Hawaii has a record which says that Obama was born at home, who is going to be able to contradict it?

    You can’t win a case with theories and possibilities. You need convincing, admissible evidence. Find some evidence and then get back to us. Otherwise, get used to the fact that Obama will be President for at least the next 2 1/2 years.

  63. avatar
    nc1 June 19, 2010 at 11:55 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Why would you not? One doesn’t “investigate” things with a rational basis for the investigation. The totality of the “born in Kenya” story is rumors and manufactured fakes, and easily proven fakes at that. Just because you believe it doesn’t mean that anyone we have elected would believe it. Whatever I think of Republicans in general, I do not think that there any appreciable number of them in Congress so out of touch with the normal way of telling fact from fantasy that you would ever have an investigation even if the entire Congress were Republican. The only one who has done a public investigation is Rev. Manning, and that should tell you something about the connection between reality and Obama conspiracy theories.It’s been two years since the COLB was published. If there was a smoking gun, don’t you think it would have appeared by now?

    Tim Addams said that he was willing to testify in court that there is no long form birth certificate confirming Kapiolani hospital birth. This story is not a smoking gun only because the main stream media is covering for Obama.

    Is there anybody on Obama’s side who is willing to testify in courts on his behalf?
    Forget about courts, they even avoid questions from the media. Few days ago, the White House spokesman avoided answering the simple question about SSN. At the regular press conference Gibbs was asked whether Obama ever maintained residence in CT and he switched topic by saying that the birth certificate was posted on the web. WTF?

  64. avatar
    SFJeff June 20, 2010 at 12:05 am #

    What I find fascinating about NC1’s handwringing about ‘what if, what if” is so what?

    Let us suppose for a moment two scenario’s- the first exactly as we know the facts- Obama was born in Hawaii and raised as we have heard. He is who he is.

    Let us suppose a second scenario- Obama is born in Kenya and whisked off to Hawaii- and from that point on his life is exactly as above. He has no idea that he was born other than Hawaii.

    In one case he is clearly a natural born citizen. In the other he is technically not. For all of the angst of Birthers- does anyone really think that the President would be any better- or worse- a President given either of these scenarios

  65. avatar
    misha June 20, 2010 at 12:15 am #

    Rickey: Otherwise, get used to the fact that Obama will be President for at least the next 2 1/2 years.

    Obama will be re-elected, and Cory Booker will follow. Better get used to it.

  66. avatar
    nc1 June 20, 2010 at 12:30 am #

    G: So sayeth the crazy birther.All actual evidence – the COLB, statements by actual HI officials, Obama’s autobiography, the newspaper accounts of his birth – all clearly point to the same thing: Born in Honolulu, HI There is no credible evidence otherwise.Your “long form” cries are just red-herring nonsense. All fields on the COLB come from the long form. The only thing that matters to the NBC issue here is place of birth. The certified HI COLB for Obama answers this clearly: : Born in Honolulu, HI . End of story!Therefore, the “long form” would not say any different and no other fields of information are relevant to this Constitutional issue.So, you FAIL. Again.

    1. Obama’s so-called autobiography is not what it says. Many events and people in it are imaginary. Therefore, you should take anything written in his book with a grain of salt.

    2. You assumed that COLB was legally issued to Obama by the DoH. It is a mighty big assumption. If the COLB was issued to Obama (on June 6, 2007) there would be no need for Obama camp to come up with several versions of the digital image presented to the public. Obama could have simply authorized the DoH to release the COLB to the interested media. We don’t have even simple confirmation from the DoH that they issued the COLB document presented to the public.

    3. Tim Adams (senior elections clerk in Hololulu for 2008 elections) said that his office got response from Honolulu hospitals that they had no records about Obama being born there. He also said that he was willing to testify in court.
    So we have Fukino saying that Obama was born in Hawaii and Adams saying that no record exists that would confirm the official birthplace story.

    Given the record of lies and broken campaign trail promises you would have to be crazy to take Obama’s word about his birthplace for granted.

  67. avatar
    dunstvangeet June 20, 2010 at 12:37 am #

    NC1…

    2. “It’s a valid, Hawaii state birth certificate.” Janice Okubo, Hawaii Department of Health. You’re calling Janice Okubo a liar.

    3. Tim Adams is, frankly, a liar. The Elections Office never called up the hospitals, and if members did, not only was it ethically inappropriate (since they had absolutely no reason to do that), but illegal. It’s the same as the people who accessed Barack Obama’s student loan records. Furthermore, if the Elections Office did call up the hospitals, the hospitals are not required to keep records for 50 years, and as a practice do not keep records for 50 years. And if they did keep these records, they are prevented from giving them out (or even admitting that they have a record) by the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA).

    So, what you’re saying is that the Hawaii Elections Department broke the law and called up the Hospitals, which would not have kept records on file for 50 years, to ask them whether or not they had a record on file. And the hospital broke the law by saying that they didn’t? Gee, that seems a little farfetched.

  68. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2010 at 12:50 am #

    nc1: Tim Adams (senior elections clerk in Hololulu [sic] for 2008 elections) said that his office got response from Honolulu hospitals that they had no records about Obama being born there…. you would have to be crazy to take Obama’s word about his birthplace for granted.

    And where precisely did you find this tidbit about Adams claiming his office contacted hospitals? Where and when did he say it? It wasn’t on the “Political Cesspool” radio show, nor in the WND interview. Are the nObamas making up stuff again? One would be crazy to take a birther’s word for granted.

  69. avatar
    Ellid June 20, 2010 at 12:58 am #

    NC, you know very well that your questions have all been asked and answered myriad times. Why are you doing this? Do you really think that a different venue is going to produce different answers?

  70. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2010 at 1:00 am #

    Ellid: The name of the hospital and the doctor/midwife delivering the baby are not on state-issued birth certificates.

    Not so in 1961. A birth certificate issued in 61 by the state would have the name of the hospital and the attendant. The certificate for the Nordyke twins, born the day after Obama, clearly show this. Certificates issued today for births in 1961 are abstracted from original documents and do not show this information.

  71. avatar
    misha June 20, 2010 at 1:02 am #

    nc1: 3. Tim Adams (senior elections clerk in Hololulu for 2008 elections) said that his office got response from Honolulu hospitals that they had no records about Obama being born there. He also said that he was willing to testify in court.So we have Fukino saying that Obama was born in Hawaii and Adams saying that no record exists that would confirm the official birthplace story.

    Adams is an attention hound, and a pathological liar. He is in bed with the Klan, white nationalists, and neo-Nazis. He came up with a story made from whole cloth, two years later, on an internet interview with an avowed anti-semite and neo-Nazi. Gary Kreep is buddies with Holocaust deniers, and “Reverend” Manning has a felony record as long as his arm. Andy Martin has a criminal record, and was incarcerated, plus he has a paper trail of campaigning against “Jew power.”

    Orly Taitz is just another crazy refusenik, who spends her day licking her wounds.

    Quite a bunch you have there. Have fun wallowing in the muck.

  72. avatar
    richCares June 20, 2010 at 1:27 am #

    nc3, explain Tim Adams latest statements
    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2010/06/tim-adams-claims-that-the-birthers-are-racists/
    .
    my guess is Adams saw the dangerrs of lying and backed away.
    if you call any Hospital in the USA they will not give you such info, period, quit being so gullible

  73. avatar
    nc1 June 20, 2010 at 1:35 am #

    AnotherBird: That is what some people fail to understand. It isn’t the image or picture that is important, but the fact that it presents that is important. However, with Obama being included on all 50 states ballots means that those states accepted his Hawaiian birth as sufficient proof as natural born status.The election is over and the document in question has been confirmed as authentic a couple of years ago. In a country based on law an image of COLB still posted for 2 years is stronger proof that when it was originally posted.

    No state has ever received a confirmation from Hawaii DoH that the COLB posted on the web is a legitimate one. States accepted the statement from DNC saying that Obama was eligible.

    This is a fundamental flaw in the election process – even the eligibility lawsuits did not force the Obama campaign to officialy present the COLB either to the court or secretaries of states who were in charge of conducting fair elections.

    An ordinary citizen cannot post a document on a private web page and expect that a government agency will use it as a legitimate document. Yet this is exact scenario what Obama has done so far.

  74. avatar
    nc1 June 20, 2010 at 1:54 am #

    misha: Adams is an attention hound, and a pathological liar. He is in bed with the Klan, white nationalists, and neo-Nazis. He came up with a story made from whole cloth, two years later, on an internet interview with an avowed anti-semite and neo-Nazi. Gary Kreep is buddies with Holocaust deniers, and “Reverend” Manning has a felony record as long as his arm. Andy Martin has a criminal record, and was incarcerated, plus he has a paper trail of campaigning against “Jew power.”Orly Taitz is just another crazy refusenik, who spends her day licking her wounds.Quite a bunch you have there. Have fun wallowing in the muck.

    1. If Tim Adams lied he should be prosecuted. If he has told the truth – Obama should be investigated for elections fraud.

    2. What is your opinion about Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers, Tony Rezko, Obama’s abuse of hard drugs,….

  75. avatar
    misha June 20, 2010 at 2:53 am #

    nc1: What is your opinion about Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers, Tony Rezko, Obama’s abuse of hard drugs,….

    Wright: he is justifiably angry how the descendants of slaves have been treated. Slaves’ descendants did not have civil rights until 1964. You know very well our shameful history. May I remind you my marriage was illegal in at least 16 states, until the ’64 Civil Rights Act. Google Medgar Evers, James Meredith, Vernon Jordan, and of course Dr. King.

    Quick, no looking up the answer: what happened in Philadelphia, Mississippi on June 21, 1964?

    And this: http://liveoncejuicy.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/little_rock_desegregation_1957.jpg

    And this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/f/fa/20091011042624!Little_Rock_integration_protest.jpg

    http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/

    Ayers: all the charges were dropped. The Justice Department engaged in misconduct, poisoning their case.

    Tony Rezko: I’ll match you Spiro Agnew, and raise you Dick Cheney. Shrub gives me the jackpot.

    Obama’s abuse of hard drugs: he admitted tryng cocaine. So what? Shrub has a misdemeanor conviction, and Agnew was taking cash bribes in the Executive Office Building. Besides, I’m still living off bootlegging money – and that’s not a joke.

    Hey, let me know when you find the WMDs, and the mobile bioweapons labs hidden in trailers. Oh, and Reagan created the Taliban and armed bin Laden. Just ask the Russians how that worked out. And Bush’s puppet in ‘Stan isn’t working out so well.

    As long as we’re rehashing history, Gorby ended the Cold War, not Ronnie. What’s so amazing, is that Ronnie was always a B list actor. Ha! He was a world class actor: he convincingly played president for 8 years. He should have gotten 8 Oscars.

  76. avatar
    misha June 20, 2010 at 2:58 am #

    The link was wrong: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2455/3915033469_38e93ce565.jpg

  77. avatar
    AnotherBird June 20, 2010 at 6:33 am #

    nc1:
    1.If Tim Adams lied he should be prosecuted. If he has told the truth – Obama should be investigated for elections fraud.
    2. What is your opinion about Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers, Tony Rezko, Obama’s abuse of hard drugs,….

    1. So are you suggesting that all birthers should be prosecuted. American is a nation that values freedom of speech. Tim Adams practiced his right of freedom speech, even though he lied. He is was an election clerk during the 2008 election and in no way has legal access to any physical records held by the Department of Health in Hawaii.
    2. Two years have passed, actually over 47 years have passed and there is only proof that Obama was born an American citizen. Any distractions from birther inability to accept this simple fact is just proof that they know that they are wrong.

  78. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2010 at 7:23 am #

    nc1: No state has ever received a confirmation from Hawaii DoH that the COLB posted on the web is a legitimate one.

    You don’t know that for a fact. You are just speculating.

  79. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2010 at 7:28 am #

    richCares: my guess is Adams saw the dangers of lying and backed away. If you call any Hospital in the USA they will not give you such info, period, quit being so gullible.

    I’m pretty sure that Adams never said anything about hospitals. It was not in his first statement, and he has been backpedaling ever since, not adding details. Birthers when challenged often make up the “facts”. When confronted with the fact that the Elections Division had no access to birth certificate information, they speculated that they “could have” called hospitals (what for?), and in the second generation that speculation became “fact”. We’ve seen this pattern over and over again.

  80. avatar
    Scientist June 20, 2010 at 7:33 am #

    SFJeff: What I find fascinating about NC1′s handwringing about what if, what if” is so what?
    Let us suppose for a moment two scenario’s- the first exactly as we know the facts- Obama was born in Hawaii and raised as we have heard. He is who he is.
    Let us suppose a second scenario- Obama is born in Kenya and whisked off to Hawaii- and from that point on his life is exactly as above. He has no idea that he was born other than Hawaii.
    In one case he is clearly a natural born citizen. In the other he is technically not. For all of the angst of Birthers- does anyone really think that the President would be any better- or worse- a President given either of these scenarios

    Jeff-Bingo! Being born to a US citizen mother overseas, depending on how the law was read and what the requirements for a legal marriage were, would be the constitutional equivalent of going either 55 or 56 in a 55 mph zone. Either way, you won’t get a ticket and your speed is perfectly safe. The birthers believe they should set up their own speed trap. Who can blame the rest of us for ignoring them?

  81. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2010 at 7:56 am #

    nc1: If Tim Adams lied he should be prosecuted.

    Prosecuted for what? Do you have a particular crime in mind?

  82. avatar
    misha June 20, 2010 at 8:18 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Prosecuted for what? Do you have a particular crime in mind?

    Being a pathological liar is not a crime; it is a recognized mental illness.

    @nc1: I went to Europe on a steamship. We were shipwrecked, and everyone perished, including me.

  83. avatar
    Greg June 20, 2010 at 8:34 am #

    nc1: An ordinary citizen cannot post a document on a private web page and expect that a government agency will use it as a legitimate document.

    If I, as an ordinary citizen, sign an affidavit saying that I was born in Kansas. Government agencies will use that as a legitimate document until there is real evidence that I lied.

    What is your opinion about Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers, Tony Rezko, Obama’s abuse of hard drugs,….

    None of them make Obama ineligible. And, 69 million people voted for Obama, knowing all about these.

  84. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2010 at 2:08 pm #

    misha: I went to Europe on a steamship. We were shipwrecked, and everyone perished, including me.

    Reincarnation?

  85. avatar
    misha June 20, 2010 at 3:45 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Reincarnation?

    John Lovitz’s SNL Pathological Liar sketch. And Tim Adams is a pathological liar.

  86. avatar
    Ellid June 20, 2010 at 5:36 pm #

    Dr. C – thanks for the correction. The only birth certificate I have is my own from Pennsylvania, which I ordered in 1989. It’s an abstract, of course, and of course doesn’t have anything but my parents’ names, the date I was born, and the city and state. Whatever my parents were given at the hospital disappeared long ago.

  87. avatar
    nc1 June 21, 2010 at 1:16 am #

    richCares: nc3, explain Tim Adams latest statementshttp://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2010/06/tim-adams-claims-that-the-birthers-are-racists/.my guess is Adams saw the dangerrs of lying and backed away.if you call any Hospital in the USA they will not give you such info, period, quit being so gullible

    The only important thing regarding the eligibility debate is Adams’ claim that the elections office received confirmation from both Honolulu hospitals that they had no record of Obama being born there.

  88. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 21, 2010 at 1:18 am #

    nc1: The only important thing regarding the eligibility debate is Adams’ claim that the elections office received confirmation from both Honolulu hospitals that they had no record of Obama being born there.

    And you heard this where?

  89. avatar
    nc1 June 21, 2010 at 1:26 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I’m pretty sure that Adams never said anything about hospitals. It was not in his first statement, and he has been backpedaling ever since, not adding details. Birthers when challenged often make up the “facts”. When confronted with the fact that the Elections Division had no access to birth certificate information, they speculated that they “could have” called hospitals (what for?), and in the second generation that speculation became “fact”. We’ve seen this pattern over and over again.

    Tim Adams gave interview to Joe Kovacs from WND on June 9, 2010. Kovacs talked about the Adams interview on Peter Boyles’ radio show in Denver on June 10. (the interview starts at 2:35)
    http://www.khow.com/cc-common/mediaplayer/player.html?redir=yes&mps=fullshow_boyles.php&mid=http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/DENVER-CO/KHOW-AM/061010PETE8A.mp3?CPROG=PCAST?CCOMRRMID&CPROG=RICHMEDIA&MARKET=DENVER-CO&NG_FORMAT=&NG_ID=&OR_NEWSFORMAT=&OWNER=&SERVER_NAME=www.khow.com&SITE_ID=636&STATION_ID=KHOW-AM&TRACK=

  90. avatar
    nc1 June 21, 2010 at 1:54 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Prosecuted for what? Do you have a particular crime in mind?

    Obama has plenty of lawyers in his corner to help him defend his name. Let Perkins Boie help him with this one.

    I don’t think that Tim Adams is lying about the non-existence of hospital records because he has nothing to gain and everything to lose by inventing the story. I hope that he has some kind of material evidence that would back up his version of the story.

    When Monika Lewinsky story was first reported, Clinton’s supporters attacked her viciously and accused her of lying. They were proven wrong after we learned about the existence of the blue dress.
    My advice to Obama supporters would be to slow down and think before caling Adams a liar.

  91. avatar
    nc1 June 21, 2010 at 1:59 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: And you heard this where?

    Besides talking about it on the Boyles’ radio show, Joe Kovacs writes about interviewing Adams in the WND article: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=168705

    “…At the time, there were conflicting reports that Obama had been born at the Queen’s Medical Center in Honolulu, as well as the Kapi’olani Medical Center for Women and Children, also located in the capital city. So Adams says his office checked with both facilities.

    “They told us, ‘We don’t have a birth certificate for him,'” he said. “They told my supervisor, either by phone or by e-mail, neither one has a document that a doctor signed off on saying they were present at this man’s birth.”

  92. avatar
    nc1 June 21, 2010 at 2:10 am #

    Greg: If I, as an ordinary citizen, sign an affidavit saying that I was born in Kansas. Government agencies will use that as a legitimate document until there is real evidence that I lied. None of them make Obama ineligible. And, 69 million people voted for Obama, knowing all about these.

    You cannot post an affidavit on a private web page and have the government agency take it seriously.

    Those 69 million people who voted for Obama did not have the information that both Honolulu hospitals (which were reported as Obama’s birthplace) said that they had no record of Obama being born there.

  93. avatar
    misha June 21, 2010 at 2:49 am #

    nc1: So Adams says his office checked with both facilities. “They told us, ‘We don’t have a birth certificate for him,’” he said. “They told my supervisor, either by phone or by e-mail, neither one has a document that a doctor signed off on saying they were present at this man’s birth.”

    nc1: I did an extensive internet search, and found Adams’ supervisor, at the original source.

  94. avatar
    dunstvangeet June 21, 2010 at 2:52 am #

    NC1, why would a hospital have a birth certificate for someone for over 50 years, when it is the job of the Hawaii Department of Health to keep that information? There is no legal obligation for the Hospitals to keep records that long. And when there is no legal obligation, the Hospitals often destroy those records, as to prevent the exact type of things that you’re talking about.

    Furthermore, the Hawaii Elections Office has already said that they have no legal access to Birth Records. So, what you’re saying is that someone at the Hawaii Elections Office violated the law by trying to request a record that they had no legal right to?

    And if Adams is telling the truth, why did the hospitals just violate HIPAA by telling them that they didn’t have a record for someone, when they had no legal right to the record in the first place?

    Answer those three questions.

    Furthermore, even if you get past those three questions, and are able to get Adams on the stand, Adams couldn’t actually testify to this, because it is hearsay. Adams said that someone told him this. This means that he’s retelling what someone apparently told him. That is not admissible in any court of law. You’d have to find the original person who told him, and see where he actually got it from. And backtrace this information. My gut says that if it is true (which is highly unlikely), the person who told him got it from a chain email.

  95. avatar
    misha June 21, 2010 at 2:59 am #

    dunstvangeet: NC1, why would a hospital have a birth certificate for someone for over 50 years, when it is the job of the Hawaii Department of Health to keep that information? There is no legal obligation for the Hospitals to keep records that long. And when there is no legal obligation, the Hospitals often destroy those records, as to prevent the exact type of things that you’re talking about.

    Exactly. IIRC, hospitals keep records for 7 years. I know in all the optical shops I worked in, records were only kept for 7 years.

  96. avatar
    Expelliarmus June 21, 2010 at 3:15 am #

    nc1: The only important thing regarding the eligibility debate is Adams’ claim that the elections office received confirmation from both Honolulu hospitals that they had no record of Obama being born there.

    1. Why would anyone at the elections office make such an in inquiry?

    2. Why would they call the hospitals? Wouldn’t the elections office know that birth certificates are maintained by the Dept. of Health?

    3. Why would any hospital maintain records of someone born 48 years previously? The law in Hawaii only requires that such records be kept for 7 years — see http://ihcrp.georgetown.edu/privacy/stateguides/hi/hi.pdf — (Overview, p. 7)

    It’s highly unlikely that Adams’ superiors at the elections office would do what you claim… but even if they did, the “confirmation” would merely be that the hospitals did not possess records they would not be expected to have. Guess what? I don’t happen to have Obama’s long form birth certificate in my house, either (You may take this as official confirmation that such records cannot be found in the home of an anonymous poster on the internet).

    So now you have even more proof that the long form birth certificate can’t be found in places where you would not expect to find them.

    If the Hawaii elections officials had an legal interest or right to information about Obama’s birth…. why wouldn’t they call the Department of Health?

  97. avatar
    nc1 June 21, 2010 at 4:06 am #

    dunstvangeet: NC1, why would a hospital have a birth certificate for someone for over 50 years, when it is the job of the Hawaii Department of Health to keep that information? There is no legal obligation for the Hospitals to keep records that long. And when there is no legal obligation, the Hospitals often destroy those records, as to prevent the exact type of things that you’re talking about.Furthermore, the Hawaii Elections Office has already said that they have no legal access to Birth Records. So, what you’re saying is that someone at the Hawaii Elections Office violated the law by trying to request a record that they had no legal right to?And if Adams is telling the truth, why did the hospitals just violate HIPAA by telling them that they didn’t have a record for someone, when they had no legal right to the record in the first place?Answer those three questions.Furthermore, even if you get past those three questions, and are able to get Adams on the stand, Adams couldn’t actually testify to this, because it is hearsay. Adams said that someone told him this. This means that he’s retelling what someone apparently told him. That is not admissible in any court of law. You’d have to find the original person who told him, and see where he actually got it from. And backtrace this information. My gut says that if it is true (which is highly unlikely), the person who told him got it from a chain email.

    The questions you asked are of secondary importance. I don’t hear you asking Obama to release the original birth certificate (the document stored in the DoH archive). After all, you trust his word and have no doubts that the official birthplace story is true, right?
    That would be the easiest way to prove whether Adams is telling the truth or not.

    After the main question is answered you can prosecute those who violated the law:
    It will either be people in the elections office and hospital employees or Obama and people in the DoH office covering for him.

  98. avatar
    Expelliarmus June 21, 2010 at 4:53 am #

    nc1: That would be the easiest way to prove whether Adams is telling the truth or not.

    Adams claims are irrelevant. The elections department does not have access to birth records, and hospitals generally don’t keep records more than 7 years. So there is nothing that needs to be proven or disproved.

  99. avatar
    Ellid June 21, 2010 at 7:39 am #

    NC, or whatever you’re calling yourself this week:

    If you truly think that Tim Adams is telling the truth, you’re even more desperate than I thought you were. Pathetic.

  100. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 21, 2010 at 8:12 am #

    dunstvangeet: NC1, why would a hospital have a birth certificate for someone for over 50 years, when it is the job of the Hawaii Department of Health to keep that information?

    I don’t think it’s safe to assume that these records no longer exist. A hospital birth registry is distinct type of medical record which in some retention policies is kept forever. While it is the job of the Hawaii Department of Health to keep the information, there is always the possibility of a disaster.

  101. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 21, 2010 at 8:17 am #

    nc1: Besides talking about it on the Boyles’ radio show, Joe Kovacs writes about interviewing Adams in the WND article: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=168705

    Thanks for the source. We can now see that Adams is clearly a liar, because no hospital would do what he claims they had done. He is repeating common Internet rumors as if they had happened to him. That really clears things up.

  102. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 21, 2010 at 8:24 am #

    nc1: When Monika Lewinsky story was first reported, Clinton’s supporters attacked her viciously and accused her of lying.

    I think this is an excellent example to think about. The difference between Lewinsky and Adams is that Lewinsky was making a claim about something that she experienced herself, something that was possible because of where she worked. Adams, on the other hand, had no access to any records that would support his claims, including the story that the hospitals said they had no records. His claims are vague (involving persons he has not named) while Lewinsky was specific.

    It is inconceivable that a Hawaiian hospital would disclose anything, particularly about such a high-profile individual, in violation of the law, to another agency who had no justification for asking except some guys sitting around the office playing with conspiracy theories.

    Lewinsky could have been telling the truth; Adams cannot be telling the truth. That’s the difference. That plus Adams keeps changing his story and back pedaling. And in any case, Lewinsky could have been lying and just because she wasn’t doesn’t justify accepting any and all claims without evidence.

  103. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 21, 2010 at 8:33 am #

    nc1: Kovacs talked about the Adams interview on Peter Boyles’ radio show in Denver on June 10. (the interview starts at 2:35)

    Thanks again.

  104. avatar
    Bovril June 21, 2010 at 9:00 am #

    So, NC1

    To recap….

    Your thesis is that Adams’ statements as to unatributted, uncorroborated, hearsay testimony of an unnamed third party, backed up by patently false statements of personal access to systems or records he would never have access to, outweighs a provided, sealed legal document with corroboration from those with access to the actual original records.

    (Just to enure we get it across….”sealed” in this context means affixed with a seal not locked and unavailable)

    Did you by any chance go to the same law school as Orly Taitz?

  105. avatar
    misha June 21, 2010 at 9:25 am #

    Bovril: Did you by any chance go to the same law school as Orly Taitz?

    And they also are graduates of the Spiro Agnew School of Public Administration.

  106. avatar
    BatGuano June 21, 2010 at 11:15 am #

    nc1:
    I hope that he has some kind of material evidence that would back up his version of the story.

    what possible material evidence could he have to confirm that he heard someone say that they heard someone say something ? i don’t think a soiled blue dress will work this time.

  107. avatar
    nc1 June 21, 2010 at 11:39 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Thanks for the source. We can now see that Adams is clearly a liar, because no hospital would do what he claims they had done. He is repeating common Internet rumors as if they had happened to him. That really clears things up.

    Hospitals would not disclose this information to a private citizen. However we are talking about request from government officials in the elections office, people in charge of verifying voters identity. In adition, the elections office did not request a private medical records, just the confirmation whether a person was born in the hospital.

    If you trusted Obama, you would support the request for presenting the original birth certificate (according to the official story there is such document and it originated in the Kapiolani Hospital).

  108. avatar
    nc1 June 21, 2010 at 11:41 am #

    BatGuano: what possible material evidence could he have to confirm that he heard someone say that they heard someone say something ? i don’t think a soiled blue dress will work this time.

    An email, a recorded voice mail message, fax,…

  109. avatar
    Greg June 21, 2010 at 11:45 am #

    nc1: An email, a recorded voice mail message, fax,…

    “Hey, Mr. Adams, I totally heard from someone else that Obama doesn’t have a birth certificate.”

    Ever heard of hearsay? Hearsay within hearsay?

  110. avatar
    nc1 June 21, 2010 at 11:50 am #

    Bovril: So, NC1To recap….Your thesis is that Adams’ statements as to unatributted, uncorroborated, hearsay testimony of an unnamed third party, backed up by patently false statements of personal access to systems or records he would never have access to, outweighs a provided, sealed legal document with corroboration from those with access to the actual original records.(Just to enure we get it across….”sealed” in this context means affixed with a seal not locked and unavailable)Did you by any chance go to the same law school as Orly Taitz?

    The COLB image posted on the web is not equivalent to a sealed legal document. Those in charge of keeping the original documents in the DoH would not confirm that the COLB presented to the public by the Obama campaign was indeed issued by that office on June 6, 2007.

    Call me back when Obama campaign muster enough courage to show the physical document to somebody other than a few left wing bloggers.

  111. avatar
    dunstvangeet June 21, 2010 at 11:51 am #

    nc1:
    The questions you asked are of secondary importance.I don’t hear you asking Obama to release the original birth certificate (the document stored in the DoH archive).After all, you trust his word and have no doubts that the official birthplace story is true, right?[/quote]
    That’s because Obama has already released an “official Hawaii state birth certificate.” This birth certificate is good enough to prove his place of birth to the Federal Government, because I used one of these that looks almost exactly like that one to get a passport not 3 years ago. I know that the birth certificate is valid, and has a seal, and can be used for any purpose that you need to prove your place of birth. Unlike idiotic birthers, I know Obama has already proved his place of birth beyond any reasonable doubt.

    I know that Obama’s birth is backed up by the State of Hawaii when their state registrar says, “I certifiy this is a true copy or abstract of the record on file [at] the Hawaii Department of Health”. What you want us to believe is that the State of Hawaii would be criminally negligent on their job and basically lie to us for the past 50 years.

    “That would be the easiest way to prove whether Adams is telling the truth or not.”
    Actually, it’s not. 1. Obama has already released “an official Hawaii state birth certificate” that “contains all the information needed by all federal government agencies for transactions requiring a birth certificate”. Both of those statements are from the Hawaii Department of Health. What has happened since then? 1. It has been claimed a forgery. 2. It has said that it doesn’t actually prove anything. 3. People claim that further documentation is needed.

    So, if Obama was somehow able to convince the State of Hawaii to violate their own administrative rules and offer a certified copy of a document that is no longer sent out, the exact same thing would happen. It would be denounced as a forgery. It would say that it doesn’t actually prove anything, because the doctors who delivered him are dead or retired, and the mother could have filed it fraudently. And finally, they’d say that further documentation is required, such as the non-existant adoption records by Lolo Soetoro.

    Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing, and expecting a different result. What you want us to believe is that Obama do the same exact thing, and expect that the birthers would just pack up and go home (or in otherwords, the exact opposite result of what happened last time). So, what you’re saying to me is that you want Obama to be insane, and release a document that the State of Hawaii doesn’t give out anymore to a bunch of lunatics who would just claim that it was a forgery anyways.

    After the main question is answered you can prosecute those who violated the law: It will either be people in the elections office and hospital employees or Obama and people in the DoH office covering for him.

    And you want more people to violate their own laws in order for your unyielding demands to be satisfied. Hawaii no longer issues “long-form” birth certificates. That’s a simple fact. So, you want the State of Hawaii to say itself that it’s own document isn’t adequate for proving place of birth, even though every government says that it is?

  112. avatar
    bob June 21, 2010 at 11:54 am #

    nc1: The questions you asked are of secondary importance. I don’t hear you asking Obama to release the original birth certificate (the document stored in the DoH archive). After all, you trust his word and have no doubts that the official birthplace story is true, right?That would be the easiest way to prove whether Adams is telling the truth or not.

    The State of Hawaii says Obama was born in Hawaii. To believe Obama and multiple high-ranking officials of a republican administration are conspiring to suppress a foreign-born birth would require unreasonable doubt.

    And I think Obama has more pressing matters to attend to than answering the lies of every ankle-biter on the Internet. George Bush never proved that he didn’t mastermind 9/11, nor did he think the allegation was worthy of an answer.

  113. avatar
    nc1 June 21, 2010 at 11:54 am #

    Greg: “Hey, Mr. Adams, I totally heard from someone else that Obama doesn’t have a birth certificate.” Ever heard of hearsay? Hearsay within hearsay?

    An email, recorded voice mail or a fax from the Kapiolani hospital to the elections office.

  114. avatar
    bob June 21, 2010 at 11:57 am #

    nc1: The COLB image posted on the web is not equivalent to a sealed legal document.

    The State of Hawaii’s index data says that Obama was born in Hawaii.

    But, please, explain why the unsubstantiated hearsay of someone with a “colorful” past is more believable than the word of the State of Hawaii.

  115. avatar
    bob June 21, 2010 at 11:59 am #

    nc1: An email, recorded voice mail or a fax from the Kapiolani hospital to the elections office.

    Still hearsay.

  116. avatar
    dunstvangeet June 21, 2010 at 12:00 pm #

    nc1:
    The COLB image posted on the web is not equivalent to a sealed legal document. Those in charge of keeping the original documents in the DoH would not confirm that the COLB presented to the public by the Obama campaign was indeed issued by that office on June 6, 2007.Call me back when Obama campaign muster enough courage to show the physical document to somebody other than a few left wing bloggers.

    Yes, it is, actually.

    I’d hardly call the Factcheck.org “Left Wing Bloggers”. Furthermore, Obama had the birth certificate in his campaign headquarters for anybody who wanted to see. Only Factcheck took him up on the offer.

    Factcheck is backed by both the Annenburg Public Policy Institute, and the University of Pennsylvania.

    Here’s physical photos of the Birth certificate:

    http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_1.jpg

    Now, replace the 1 at the end of the file with any number 1-9, and you’ll see various aspects of the Birth Certificate, including that it does have a raised seal, and a signature that says, “I certify this is a true copy or abstract of the record on file [with] the Hawaii Department of Health. Alvin T. Onaka. State Registrar.”

  117. avatar
    BatGuano June 21, 2010 at 12:07 pm #

    nc1:
    .I don’t hear you asking Obama to release the original birth certificate (the document stored in the DoH archive).After all, you trust his word and have no doubts that the official birthplace story is true, right?

    do i trust obama’s word ?….. about as much i trust any previous president’s word. but none of them displayed ANY proof of their “natural born” citizenship for public inspection and yet you’ve had no doubts that those official birthplace stories are true, right?

    it seems to me that if your contention is that only a “long form” birth certificate is adequate to prove eligibility then you would have been screaming for proof decades/centuries ago. if your belief is that we need the verification of a doctor and hospital…….. then we have a problem. only 4 were born in hospitals and i doubt any doctor could confirm a birth 35+ years later.

    do i trust obama’s word ?……. luckily i don’t have to rely solely on his word. all the rational evidence put forth to date points to the official, and rather boring, birthplace story.

  118. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 21, 2010 at 12:13 pm #

    nc1: An email, recorded voice mail or a fax from the Kapiolani hospital to the elections office.

    Where is this supposed voicemail, email or fax?

  119. avatar
    Rickey June 21, 2010 at 12:13 pm #

    nc1: “…At the time, there were conflicting reports that Obama had been born at the Queen’s Medical Center in Honolulu, as well as the Kapi’olani Medical Center for Women and Children, also located in the capital city. So Adams says his office checked with both facilities.

    The only “conflicting report” is an allegation that Obama’s half-sister once said that he was born at Queen’s Medical Center. Whether this repoort is true or not is irrelevant. She is nine years younger than Obama and has no personal knowledge of which hospital he was born at. I have a brother who is eight years older than me, and I have no idea which hospital he was born at. I guess I should ask him one of these days.

    They told us, ‘We don’t have a birth certificate for him,’” he said. “They told my supervisor, either by phone or by e-mail, neither one has a document that a doctor signed off on saying they were present at this man’s birth.”

    Talk about worthless hearsay! Not only wasn’t Adams included in the alleged discussion, he doesn’t even know if it took place on the phone or via e-mail!

    Of course, if anyone had actually made such an inquiry of the hospitals, they would have been told that the hospitals can’t release such information without a HIPAA-compliant medical authorization.

  120. avatar
    ellid June 21, 2010 at 12:13 pm #

    As usual, NC, your questions were asked and answered months ago. Tim Adams is clearly a very confused, and not particularly truthful, person – and regardless, NOTHING that he says about rumors at the place where he temped for a couple of months trumps a state-issued birth certificate.

    In short, you’re just as wrong as you were a year ago.

  121. avatar
    BatGuano June 21, 2010 at 12:17 pm #

    nc1:
    An email, a recorded voice mail message, fax,…

    all of these things, if sent to adams, would still equal hearsay evidence ( but would confirm adams’ portion of the story of hearing it from someone ). currently i don’t believe that adams has said he received an email, voice mail, fax……….

  122. avatar
    BatGuano June 21, 2010 at 12:23 pm #

    nc1:
    Call me back when Obama campaign muster enough courage to show the physical document to somebody other than a few left wing bloggers.

    will do what’s your number ? it was an OPEN invitation to examine !!!!!!

  123. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 21, 2010 at 12:34 pm #

    nc1: Hospitals would not disclose this information to a private citizen. However we are talking about request from government officials in the elections office, people in charge of verifying voters identity.

    Only Obama was known not to be a resident of Hawaii or a Hawaii voter so the particular request would not have been valid. Second, birth records are of no use in voter registration in the first place, and so that type of request is not valid.

    Disclosure is permitted under HIPAA when required by Law. Covered entities [including hospitals] may use and disclose protected health information without individual authorization as required by law (including by statute, regulation, or court orders). However, you would have to come up with the law that allowed the disclosure of medical records for voter registration and I sincerely doubt you will find any. If law enforcement were investigating a fraudulent voter registration they could probably get a warrant for the medical record, but that’s impossible in this case since Obama would not be registered to vote in Hawaii.

  124. avatar
    SFJeff June 21, 2010 at 2:26 pm #

    Yep, the Obama campaign posted the COLB online and said come take a look if you are interested……and there such concern by Orly Taitz and others that none of them bothered to even go look.

    Birthers keep asking why doesn’t he release his long form? But I think the more telling question is why didn’t any of these self-identified “Patriots” even bother to go and see the original? None of them has even bothered to lie and say they tried and were turned down.

    So again- Why didn’t you go look at the original? Not going is obviously clear evidence that you didn’t want to see the truth- well clear evidence by Birther definition.

  125. avatar
    misha June 21, 2010 at 2:43 pm #

    @SFJeff: Paul Jensen flatly stated that anyone can obtain a Hawaiian COLB. OK, I issue this challenge:

    To all Denialists: go to the DOH, 1250 Punchbowl Street, and get one for yourself. If you state you could not get this, post your airline tickets online, your hotel bills, and the names of the contacts at the DOH who refused your request, and why.

    Otherwise, crawl back under your rock.

  126. avatar
    G June 21, 2010 at 3:32 pm #

    nc1: However we are talking about request from government officials in the elections office, people in charge of verifying voters identity.

    …But why would they be verifying the identify of people who are NOT voters of that state? You birthers still can’t seem to answer this little fallacy of the whole story.

    Obama lived in Chicago, IL and had been a resident of that state for many years. That is where he would vote, not the state of his birth. There would be absolutely no reason whatsoever at all for voter registration officials in HI to have any info on Obama nor to do any inquiry into him.

    NC1, you clearly display many symptoms of the D-K effect, as does Adams.

  127. avatar
    G June 21, 2010 at 3:41 pm #

    bob: The State of Hawaii says Obama was born in Hawaii. To believe Obama and multiple high-ranking officials of a republican administration are conspiring to suppress a foreign-born birth would require unreasonable doubt.

    And I think Obama has more pressing matters to attend to than answering the lies of every ankle-biter on the Internet. George Bush never proved that he didn’t mastermind 9/11, nor did he think the allegation was worthy of an answer.

    Well said, Bob!

  128. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 21, 2010 at 4:15 pm #

    G: …But why would they be verifying the identify of people who are NOT voters of that state? You birthers still can’t seem to answer this little fallacy of the whole story.Obama lived in Chicago, IL and had been a resident of that state for many years. That is where he would vote, not the state of his birth. There would be absolutely no reason whatsoever at all for voter registration officials in HI to have any info on Obama nor to do any inquiry into him.NC1, you clearly display many symptoms of the D-K effect, as does Adams.

    I got a question. One of you guys I know looked into it. Was it Misha? What 2 months did Adams work there? Was it before the ending of the Democratic Presidential Primary?

  129. avatar
    BatGuano June 21, 2010 at 4:35 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
    I got a question.One of you guys I know looked into it.Was it Misha?What 2 months did Adams work there?Was it before the ending of the Democratic Presidential Primary?

    i believe he stated on facebook that he was “on leave” the start of august 2008 ( before the DNC ) and didn’t think he’d be going back.

  130. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 21, 2010 at 4:37 pm #

    BatGuano: i believe he stated on facebook that he was “on leave” the start of august 2008 ( before the DNC ) and didn’t think he’d be going back.

    So chances are he wasn’t there before Obama was picked as the democratic presidential candidate which makes his story even more weird

  131. avatar
    misha June 21, 2010 at 4:42 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): I got a question. One of you guys I know looked into it. Was it Misha? What 2 months did Adams work there? Was it before the ending of the Democratic Presidential Primary?

    What I wrote, is that Linda Lingle is Jewish and a staunch Republican. She believed that McCain/Palin would be better for Israel, and was determined that McCain win.

    If she could have found anything to use against Obama, she and her party would have done so with glee. To make any allegations to the contrary, is simply impossible.

  132. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 21, 2010 at 5:13 pm #

    misha: What I wrote, is that Linda Lingle is Jewish and a staunch Republican. She believed that McCain/Palin would be better for Israel, and was determined that McCain win.If she could have found anything to use against Obama, she and her party would have done so with glee. To make any allegations to the contrary, is simply impossible.

    My question was the timing though Misha. Did Adams work there during the period where it was clear Obama would beat Hilary or did he quit before then?

  133. avatar
    misha June 21, 2010 at 5:24 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): My question was the timing though Misha. Did Adams work there during the period where it was clear Obama would beat Hilary or did he quit before then?

    I don’t know. I cannot find any statement from Adams about the dates of his temping, and all Hawaii will do is simply confirm that he did work there at one time. I know that when I managed eyeglass shops, and was called for a reference, I would simply state the employment dates, and if it was a voluntary seperation.

  134. avatar
    Expelliarmus June 21, 2010 at 6:20 pm #

    G: Obama lived in Chicago, IL and had been a resident of that state for many years. That is where he would vote, not the state of his birth.

    I’d like to add that since Obama happened to then be the Senator FOR Illinois — he would HAVE to be registered to vote in Illinois and maintain his permanent domicile there. (I realize that Alan Keyes was a little unclear on that point back in 2004 — but basically Senators do need to live in the states they represent).

  135. avatar
    Expelliarmus June 21, 2010 at 6:31 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: A hospital birth registry is distinct type of medical record which in some retention policies is kept forever

    They are not required by law to keep those records. The most expansive interpretation of Hawaii law might require them to keep the records for 43 years (25 years after a minor turns 18; 25+18=43). So basically the hospital is safe, legally, to discard any records that are more than 43 years old.

    You said “some retention policies” but the question isn’t whether there is any possibility that the records of Obama’s birth might exist at the hospital where he was born, but whether we could draw any conclusions from the lack of such records. Since strict compliance with the law would not require retention of any such record or notation — I think that the process of calling the hospital to check on records is way past its expiry date.

  136. avatar
    misha June 21, 2010 at 6:59 pm #

    Expelliarmus: I’d like to add that since Obama happened to then be the Senator FOR Illinois — he would HAVE to be registered to vote in Illinois and maintain his permanent domicile there. (I realize that Alan Keyes was a little unclear on that point back in 2004 — but basically Senators do need to live in the states they represent).

    Keyes is a carpetbagger, who is still licking his wounds. He, like his soulmate Orly, is basically nuts.

    Keyes is orignially from Maryland. I lived near Rockville for 13 years. I can say without qualification, Maryland is a dump. I was sooo relieved to get out. The Washington Post ran stories about cross burnings in Frederick, right up the road from where we lived, and there were cross burings in West Virginia, which wasn’t that far away.

  137. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 21, 2010 at 7:11 pm #

    Expelliarmus: You said “some retention policies” but the question isn’t whether there is any possibility that the records of Obama’s birth might exist at the hospital where he was born, but whether we could draw any conclusions from the lack of such records.

    I would prefer to back up one more step and say that the hospital’s refusal to acknowledge possession of said records does not allow us to draw any conclusion as to whether there is a lack of them. If the hospital said, we have no records that old, we learn nothing about Obama. If the hospital says they have records that old, we learn nothing about Obama. If the hospital says we have records that old AND we refuse talk to you about Obama, we learn nothing about Obama. Only if the hospital says they have records that old AND says that they have no records on Obama, then and only then do you learn something about Obama — and that has not been the case.

    As to retention policies TODAY, the American Health Information Management Association (AHIMA) record retention guidelines call for the permanent retention of the “birth register”. See:

    http://library.ahima.org/xpedio/groups/public/documents/ahima/bok1_012545.hcsp?dDocName=bok1_012545
    http://www.papercutsstorage.info/BusinessRetention.pdf
    http://www.txhima.org/www/laws/currlaw13.htm
    http://library.ahima.org/xpedio/groups/public/documents/ahima/bok1_012547.pdf

    Although as you say, Hawaiian law does not seem to require it. State laws in a least a couple of states do require the permanent retention of the register of births.

  138. avatar
    Ellid June 21, 2010 at 10:44 pm #

    Rickey –

    Even better, the source for Maya Soetoro-Ng’s quote was a HIGH SCHOOL NEWSPAPER. Not precisely what I would call a bastion of fact-checking or great journalism, no matter how sincere the kids who ran it were.

  139. avatar
    bob June 21, 2010 at 10:57 pm #

    Ellid: Rickey – Even better, the source for Maya Soetoro-Ng’s quote was a HIGH SCHOOL NEWSPAPER. Not precisely what I would call a bastion of fact-checking or great journalism, no matter how sincere the kids who ran it were.

    More on Maya said Queen’s Hospital myth.

  140. avatar
    nc1 June 22, 2010 at 2:54 am #

    SFJeff: Yep, the Obama campaign posted the COLB online and said come take a look if you are interested……and there such concern by Orly Taitz and others that none of them bothered to even go look. Birthers keep asking why doesn’t he release his long form? But I think the more telling question is why didn’t any of these self-identified “Patriots” even bother to go and see the original? None of them has even bothered to lie and say they tried and were turned down. So again- Why didn’t you go look at the original? Not going is obviously clear evidence that you didn’t want to see the truth- well clear evidence by Birther definition.

    Could you provide a source for the claim that Obama offered access to the COLB document in his campaign headquarters?

  141. avatar
    nc1 June 22, 2010 at 3:04 am #

    G: …But why would they be verifying the identify of people who are NOT voters of that state? You birthers still can’t seem to answer this little fallacy of the whole story.Obama lived in Chicago, IL and had been a resident of that state for many years. That is where he would vote, not the state of his birth. There would be absolutely no reason whatsoever at all for voter registration officials in HI to have any info on Obama nor to do any inquiry into him.NC1, you clearly display many symptoms of the D-K effect, as does Adams.

    Obama was on the ballot and there were conflicting claims about his birthplace. The elections office was bombarded with questions about Obama’s birthplace. If I had been in charge of the elections process I would have asked hospitals whether they could find the birth registration on their books.

    The elections office supervisor probably expected to receive a confirmation from one of the hospitals. I could imagine the surprise this person must have felt when the negative answer came back from both hospitals.

  142. avatar
    nc1 June 22, 2010 at 3:27 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Only Obama was known not to be a resident of Hawaii or a Hawaii voter so the particular request would not have been valid. Second, birth records are of no use in voter registration in the first place, and so that type of request is not valid. Disclosure is permitted under HIPAA when required by Law. Covered entities [including hospitals] may use and disclose protected health information without individual authorization as required by law (including by statute, regulation, or court orders). However, you would have to come up with the law that allowed the disclosure of medical records for voter registration and I sincerely doubt you will find any. If law enforcement were investigating a fraudulent voter registration they could probably get a warrant for the medical record, but that’s impossible in this case since Obama would not be registered to vote in Hawaii.

    Why do you assume that the elections office asked for the birth record from the hospital? They probably asked for a simple Yes/No answer to the question whether Obama was born there. I don’t see any reason for Hospital to be reluctant to respond to such a benign request from the State Elections office.

    These people probably know each other or at least they communicated through official channels before.

  143. avatar
    Expelliarmus June 22, 2010 at 5:08 am #

    The state elections office had no business whatsoever calling the hospital to ask … and it clearly didn’t happen. (“Put it this way: Barack Obama was not trying to register to vote in Hawaii. He is, as far as I know, not a registered voter here. So no one was looking that up.” – Glen Takahashi, quoted by Dave Wiegel)

    The elections office would not check birth records. Ever. They have no reason to. You don’t have to be born in Hawaii to vote there. You only have to live there and be a US citizen. You don’t have to be a natural born citizen, you can be a recently naturalized citizen. So when elections officials want to check voter status, they use DMV records and run a check against the social security database.

    The Hawaii voter registration form doesn’t even ask voters to indicate their place of birth. All they ask is date of birth, residence, and for the voter to check a box “yes” indicating that he is a US citizen..

  144. avatar
    Expelliarmus June 22, 2010 at 5:12 am #

    nc1: . The elections office was bombarded with questions about Obama’s birthplace.

    No they weren’t. “I fielded no questions about that,” Takahashi said. “Why would anyone ask us? We don’t have those records.”

  145. avatar
    Expelliarmus June 22, 2010 at 5:17 am #

    nc1: Could you provide a source for the claim that Obama offered access to the COLB document in his campaign headquarters?

    “… we can attest to the fact that it is real and three-dimensional and resides at the Obama headquarters in Chicago

  146. avatar
    Greg June 22, 2010 at 7:13 am #

    nc1: I don’t see any reason for Hospital to be reluctant to respond to such a benign request from the State Elections office.

    Call up the hospital you were born at and say, “I’m just wondering, can you check, was nc1 born there? No, I’m not related, I’m just curious. It’s just a yes or no question.”

    That you cannot figure out why the Hospital might be reluctant to give out information to a random individual which might violate HIPAA or the Hawaii Privacy Laws tells more about you and your imagination than it does about the hospitals.

    Let me tell you a little story that might give you a clue about how hospitals view these “benign” requests.

    My wife was interviewing candidates for her residency program. One of the candidates had to disclose that he had been placed on academic suspension during medical school. The reason he gave was that he had looked at President Clinton’s medical records when he had come to their hospital for heart surgery. Like several of the students in the med school and employees of the hospital, he was curious. Unlike them, he just opened up the file, realized his mistake and immediately closed it. That’s why he was only suspended and not expelled from the medical school, like some of his fellow med students.

    How much more benign can you get than opening a file and then closing it, without looking at any of the information contained within? Opening and closing the file created a permanent black mark on his record. He didn’t get a spot in this residency program, I can’t say that it was because of this, but it certainly didn’t help.

  147. avatar
    AnotherBird June 22, 2010 at 7:16 am #

    nc1:
    Obama was on the ballot and there were conflicting claims about his birthplace. The elections office was bombarded with questions about Obama’s birthplace.If I had been in charge of the elections process I would have asked hospitals whether they could find the birth registration on their books.
    The elections office supervisor probably expected to receive a confirmation from one of the hospitals. I could imagine the surprise this person must have felt when the negative answer came back from both hospitals.

    There is a difference on being on the ballot and being a voter in that area. An election official doesn’t needs to access the birth record of a person who isn’t voting in that jurisdiction, or any birth record for that matter.

    To vote all is required is proof of age of majority and residency. That is proof of the right to vote in that jurisdiction.

    Anyone contacting an election worker to confirm the citizenship of an individual needs to get their head examined. Anyone contacting an election worker to confirm the birth of an individual living outside of the jurisdiction (state, city, town) needs to check into a psychiatric ward.

  148. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 22, 2010 at 8:22 am #

    Greg: Opening and closing the file created a permanent black mark on his record. He didn’t get a spot in this residency program, I can’t say that it was because of this, but it certainly didn’t help.

    Our company handles medical records for covered entities. While I might sympathize with the fellow’s curiosity, and I might rightly believe that he had learned a powerful lesson, I would never hire him. A scandal involving disclosure of medical records could ruin the company and even the appearance of laxity could hurt our reputation in the industry.

  149. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 22, 2010 at 8:26 am #

    nc1: These people probably know each other or at least they communicated through official channels before.

    You’ve obviously never worked for a hospital. Stuff like you describe gets people fired.

  150. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 22, 2010 at 8:26 am #

    nc1: The elections office was bombarded with questions about Obama’s birthplace.

    And you know this how?

  151. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 22, 2010 at 8:30 am #

    nc1: Could you provide a source for the claim that Obama offered access to the COLB document in his campaign headquarters?

    All we know is that the FactCheck.org staff saw and photographed the COLB there. I am not aware of any information as to the status of its general availability. I know of no press reports of anyone else who saw it, nor of any reports of any refusal to make it available. This is hardly surprising because any responsible news source would not doubt FactCheck.org’s integrity regarding these photos.

  152. avatar
    nc1 June 22, 2010 at 11:53 am #

    Greg: Call up the hospital you were born at and say, “I’m just wondering, can you check, was nc1 born there? No, I’m not related, I’m just curious. It’s just a yes or no question.”That you cannot figure out why the Hospital might be reluctant to give out information to a random individual which might violate HIPAA or the Hawaii Privacy Laws tells more about you and your imagination than it does about the hospitals. Let me tell you a little story that might give you a clue about how hospitals view these “benign” requests. My wife was interviewing candidates for her residency program. One of the candidates had to disclose that he had been placed on academic suspension during medical school. The reason he gave was that he had looked at President Clinton’s medical records when he had come to their hospital for heart surgery. Like several of the students in the med school and employees of the hospital, he was curious. Unlike them, he just opened up the file, realized his mistake and immediately closed it. That’s why he was only suspended and not expelled from the medical school, like some of his fellow med students. How much more benign can you get than opening a file and then closing it, without looking at any of the information contained within? Opening and closing the file created a permanent black mark on his record. He didn’t get a spot in this residency program, I can’t say that it was because of this, but it certainly didn’t help.

    1. It is not a random person who asked about it but State Elections office.

    2. There is a huge difference between asking whether a person was born in a particular hospital versus looking into that person’s medical file. Would the student from your example get into any trouble for asking a simple question whether Clinton was a patient of that hospital?
    Correct me if I am wrong but journalists regularly publish much more details about medical procedures performed on people holding high government office positions.

  153. avatar
    nc1 June 22, 2010 at 11:57 am #

    Expelliarmus: “… we can attest to the fact that it is real and three-dimensional and resides at the Obama headquarters in Chicago

    Yes he offered access to factcheck.org exclusively – it was not an open invitation to anybody else who might have been interested.
    SFJeff claimed that anybody had access to it and that “birthers” did not take the opportunity.

  154. avatar
    nc1 June 22, 2010 at 12:06 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: You’ve obviously never worked for a hospital. Stuff like you describe gets people fired.

    Don’t tell me that you have never received information from a colleague at work that might not have been originally intended for your consumption.

    On everyday basis we read about journalists using anonimous sources. Information leaks are everywhere around us in the society. Yet we are supposed to assume that no such thing is possible within the State Elections office in Hawaii or Kapiolani Hospital!?

  155. avatar
    SFJeff June 22, 2010 at 12:27 pm #

    “SFJeff claimed that anybody had access to it and that “birthers” did not take the opportunity.”

    Indeed I did, and I was mistaken. I thought I had seen the invitation to review the document at Obama’s headquarters.

    “Yes he offered access to factcheck.org exclusively – it was not an open invitation to anybody else who might have been interested.”

    At the same time, I see nothing to indicate that Obama offered Factcheck anything exclusively. Quote:

    “Recently FactCheck representatives got a chance to spend some time with the birth certificate, and we can attest to the fact that it is real and three-dimensional and resides at the Obama headquarters in Chicago. ”

    Did Factcheck request the opportunity or did Obama’s campaign offer it to Factcheck for review? Don’t really know. At the same time, I will ask this question back- what Birther asked to review the COLB? I haven’t seen any of the big three say they had requested an opportunity to review it and were refused.

    And since they haven’t said they were refused, you can bet they never asked. And if they never asked, why didn’t they ask?

    Because they would have to deal with real evidence. Orly and her fellow travellers are evidence adverse, and confronting real evidence in person would shake their firmly held faith in Obama’s illegitimacy.

  156. avatar
    ellid June 22, 2010 at 12:29 pm #

    NC – as has been pointed out to you over and over and over again, privacy laws are privacy laws. You are, as you always have been, wrong.

  157. avatar
    Greg June 22, 2010 at 12:39 pm #

    nc1: It is not a random person who asked about it but State Elections office.

    With no legal authority to ask for the information, no letter from the AG saying why they needed the information, no subpoena directing them to obtain the information and no search warrant seeking the information!

    Kapiolani has a written policy on when it can give out medical information without the consent of the patient. Here it is:

    6. We May Make These Uses and Disclosures Without Your Authorization
    When Required By Law: We will use and disclose your PHI when we are required to do so by federal, state, or local law.
    To Avert a Serious Threat to Health or Safety: We may use and disclose your PHI to prevent a serious threat to your health and safety or the health and safety of others.
    For Organ and Tissue Donation: We will disclose your PHI to a designated organ donor program as required or permitted by law.
    For Specific Government Functions: We may disclose PHI of military personnel and veterans in certain situations or for national security reasons, such as protection of the president.
    For Legal Proceedings: We may disclose your PHI in response to a subpoena, discovery request, or other lawful process by someone involved in a dispute, but only after efforts have been made to tell you about the request or to obtain an order protecting the PHI requested.
    For Law Enforcement: We may use or disclose your PHI for law enforcement purposes, such as legal processes, limited information requests for identification and location purposes, information pertaining to victims of a crime, suspicion that death has occurred as a result of criminal conduct, a crime occurring on our premises, and certain medical emergencies (not on the premises).
    For Health Oversight: We may disclose PHI about you to a state or federal health oversight agency that is authorized by law to oversee our operations. These activities are necessary for the government to monitor our health care system, government programs, and compliance with civil rights laws.
    To Coroners, Medical Examiners, and Funeral Directors: We may disclose your PHI to a coroner or medical examiner. This may be necessary, for example, to identify a deceased person or to determine the cause of death. We also may release PHI to funeral directors as necessary for them to carry out their duties.
    For Workers’ Compensation: We may disclose your PHI as permitted by workers’ compensation laws and other similar programs.
    For Public Health: We will disclose PHI to public health authorities for public health activities, investigations, or interventions as required by law. Public health activities generally include:
    – Reporting births and deaths, birth defects, children at risk, and child abuse or neglect;
    – Preventing or controlling disease, injury, or disability;
    – Notifying people of recalls of medical products they may be using;
    – Notifying a person who may have been exposed to a disease or may be at risk for contracting or spreading a disease or condition;
    – Reporting reactions to medications or problems with products; and
    – Notifying the appropriate government authority if we believe a patient has been the victim of abuse or neglect.
    Regarding Inmates or Individuals in Custody: If you are in legal custody, we may disclose your PHI to a correctional institution or law enforcement official. PHI may be disclosed to provide you health care, to protect your health and safety or the health and safety of others, or for the safety and security of the correctional institution.

    Which one would a call from the elections office, seeking simply to allay the fears of voters fall into?

    If it’s not blatantly obvious from that list then there is no way the hospital would have answered the question without a lot more. I don’t see “informal request from the elections department” up there. Do you?

    There’s no way a hospital attorney would have allowed an employee to answer the question without a written request spelling out exactly which exception the information fell into.

    This is from the hospital’s privacy policy. It is a contract with the patient and even aside from any other privacy laws, a hospital could be sued for breach of contract or consumer protection violations for violating the contract. Hospitals take these things very seriously!

    Would the student from your example get into any trouble for asking a simple question whether Clinton was a patient of that hospital?

    If he had searched the system to find out if Clinton had been admitted or if a medical record had been created for Clinton, he would have been. Even whether or not a person is a patient is protected health information!

    Correct me if I am wrong but journalists regularly publish much more details about medical procedures performed on people holding high government office positions.

    Details which are provided by the individual’s press office, or by the hospital with the express permission of the individual.

    Asking for any sort of information about any patient triggers a butt-clenching response on the part of a hospital employee. It has to, since the hospital lawyers are diligent about pounding that response into those employees! Before Clinton arrived at Columbia Hospital, the hospital lawyers sent out a stern e-mail warning all employees not to look at his files in any way. Between 17 and 30 employees, including at least 2 physicians, were suspended or fired.

    These examples are discussed in every new employee orientation. If the lawyers could hook employees up to machines to guage whether the butt-clenching response were adequate before letting any new employee out of training, they would.

    So, if you want to tell me that a hospital told the elections board that they had no records for Obama, you’re going to need a lot more than Adams saying that he’d been told by his boss that the hospital said so. You’re going to need more than the boss saying he’d been told by the hospital. You’re going to need to show me the hospital saying so!

  158. avatar
    Black Lion June 22, 2010 at 12:42 pm #

    More failure from the Post and Fail, this time in an article by some birther failure by the name of Brian Radka. I guess he is not a fan of Senator Rockerfeller….

    http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/06/21/another-cowardly-senator-covers-for-obama-and-himself/

    “Unlike Commander Kerchner’s experience wherein he received absolutely no reply to his letters bringing attention to Obama’s questionable eligibility, I received a response from one of my senators. Senator Jay Rockefeller sent me the following (form?) letter in response to my questions about Obama’s eligibility to serve as President of the United States:

    The 111th Congress sat in a joint session on January 8th to count and certify the votes cast by the Electoral College. No member of Congress objected to certifying Barack Obama as our 44th President. While I appreciate your concerns, I am confident that President Obama has met all the constitutional requirements for the Presidency.”

    But it looks like Radka did not like the response he received…He responds with the usual birther list of lies and nonsense…

    “I understand the chairman of the Electoral College did not follow protocol and failed to ask for any objections to Barack’s eligibility to be President, and not one representative in the 111th Congress appears to have had the guts to challenge his qualifications. American voters will remember this in the upcoming elections, if Barack is not cast out of office and locked up before then.

    Senator Rockefeller, surely you are smart enough not to take some bureaucrat’s word in Democrat Hawaii saying he has a legitimate birth certificate, but who produces none?

    Why did Congress investigate McCain’s birth credentials but not Obama’s? Surely you must smell a rat.

    Has the FBI made a careful background check on Barack, as it did when I joined the Army Security Agency? Have you checked with the FBI on its results, if it even bothered to check the background of a person assuming the most important position in the world?

    As we can see he spouts the usual lies. But I thought the name seemed familar so I googled it. He is a hard core birther. The link below shows his support for our seditious LtC Lakin.

    http://einhornpress.com/LtColLakin.aspx

    And some of his writings that at best are dubious….

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=Larry+Brian+Radka&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

    You have to wonder sometimes where this people come from. We all understand that you may not like the current President or his policies. But to go from that to believing the most farfetched fiction and conspiracy theories is something else.

  159. avatar
    Greg June 22, 2010 at 12:47 pm #

    nc1: Yet we are supposed to assume that no such thing is possible within the State Elections office in Hawaii or Kapiolani Hospital!?

    No, but you’re asking us to take the word of someone relaying not what the hospital told him, but what he was allegedly told about what the hospital told his boss. His boss, by the way, has denied asking for any such information. His boss, further, has denied that voters asked his office about Obama’s eligibility.

    The hospitals were asked by various birther investigators about their records, and their response, uniformly, was that they would neither confirm, nor deny, the existence of any such records.

    The State of Hawaii, by contrast, has confirmed that Obama was born in Honolulu.

    A friend of a friend told my friend that we didn’t land on the moon. That’s the value of Adams’ statement at this point!

  160. avatar
    G June 22, 2010 at 2:19 pm #

    SFJeff: At the same time, I see nothing to indicate that Obama offered Factcheck anything exclusively. Quote:

    “Recently FactCheck representatives got a chance to spend some time with the birth certificate, and we can attest to the fact that it is real and three-dimensional and resides at the Obama headquarters in Chicago. ”

    Did Factcheck request the opportunity or did Obama’s campaign offer it to Factcheck for review? Don’t really know. At the same time, I will ask this question back- what Birther asked to review the COLB? I haven’t seen any of the big three say they had requested an opportunity to review it and were refused.

    Good points, SFJeff.

    Personally, I thought that statements were made during the campaign that the document was available at the Chicago Campaign HQ. Whether such was in writing or in audio statements made on TV, I can’t remember.

    As time has passed and the birther rants have droned on and on and on (and cluttered the internet), it has become increasingly difficult to search and find the right keyword combination to get at such answers from that time period to verify. You often have to wade through pages of birther commentary before finding actual news reports and it is even more difficult tracking down such obscure sound bytes.

    So, without being able to find such evidence so far, I too will back away from making any statements about the document’s public availability at that time.

    I’ve seen some birthers claim that the non-partisan Politifact.com was denied access to the birth certificate. That is true, but it must be taken in context with the timing of their request to understand the whole picture.

    Politifact.com was one of the first actual news sites to start digging into the issue – shortly after the spam emails started showing up making claims that Obama was a Muslim and that his middle name was Mohammed. (rumors likely started by the slimy operator, Mark Penn on HRC’s campaign staff).

    In fact, they issued their first report, digging into the issue all the way back on Jan 11, 2008:

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2008/jan/11/chain-email/not-a-muslim-not-mohammed/

    On April 18, 2008, they issued a follow-up article, in which they report on the background documents they’ve found on Obama, with links to each of those documents:

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2008/may/02/chain-email/no-muhammed-or-mohammed-in-obamas-name/

    *Marriage License
    *Driving Record in IL (goes back to 1996)
    *Law License

    I want to point out that each of these documents clearly show his name always as Barack H. Obama, or Barack Hussein Obama which dispels much of the silly “Soetoro” talk that birthers made up and keep trying to pander.

    I also want to point out that this is the article when they actually mention that they were not able to obtain his birth certificate, either from the state of HI or from the campaign itself:

    We tried to obtain a copy of Obama’s birth certificate, but his campaign would not release it and the state of Hawaii does not make such records public. (UPDATE: On June 12, 2008, the Obama campaign e-mailed to PolitiFact a copy of the senator’s birth certificate. It confirms our findings. See it for yourself here.)

    In all subsequent articles that they ran on these issues, they often refer back to their prior research (which makes sense). Once the birth certificate was released, the only confirmed action they took themselves was to look at the released document online and then contact the HI DOH directly to confirm it:

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/

    The ultimate document we sought was Obama’s birth certificate. Unlike the other documents, Hawaii birth certificates aren’t public record. Only family members can request copies, so when the campaign declined to give us one, we were stalled.

    On June 13, 2008, Obama’s campaign finally released a copy, while launching a fact-check Web site of its own, Fightthesmears.com. The site is a direct response to allegations about Obama that won’t go away: He’s Muslim. He took the oath of office on a Koran. He refuses to say the Pledge of Allegiance. PolitiFact has researched all of these accusations and none of them are true.

    When the birth certificate arrived from the Obama campaign it confirmed his name as the other documents already showed it. Still, we took an extra step: We e-mailed it to the Hawaii Department of Health, which maintains such records, to ask if it was real.

    “It’s a valid Hawaii state birth certificate,” spokesman Janice Okubo told us.

    They also refer to FactCheck.org physically going out to Chicago and verifying the document:

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/28/worldnetdaily/birthers-claim-gibbs-lied-when-he-said-obamas-birt/

    Our friends from FactCheck.org went to Chicago, held the document in their questioning hands and examined it closely. Their conclusion: It’s legit.

    So, all we can conclude is that, prior to the campaign releasing the COLB online (June 12, 2008), Politifact.com had done what research they could on their own, including contacting both the HI DOH for the birth certificate (denied due to privacy laws) and the campaign (denied at that time, as this was prior to the campaign providing or publishing this info to the public, period).

    All we can conclude on Politifact.com’s actions after the June 12, 2008 release is that they:

    1. Looked at the COLB online
    2. Contacted the HI DOH via email to confirm it
    3. Accepted the report from FactCheck.org, which physically went to Chicago and examined the document directly, including showing photos of their handling of said document.

    Based on that evidence, Politifact.com clearly stated that everything seemed to corroborate the info that they already had and they were fully satisfied at that time and considered the issue settled and not worthy of further investigation. They clearly state in their follow-up articles that they were completely surprised by the rise of the birthers and that the issue was still being debated.

    Yet all of these additional follow-up articles take place after the 2008 election was settled (many in 2009). So, while additional Politifact.com articles make reference to the same facts & actions which took place in their earlier 2008 reports and come to the same conclusion, there is no clear evidence that they ever actually re-requested from Obama’s campaign to examine the physical document themselves once the June 12, 2008 online publication was made. Most of their additional information is reporting and validating the findings of the 2 newspaper articles confirming the birth (and validating that they were birth announcements provided by the state – not by “individuals”) as well as reporting on the additional follow-up confirmation statements by HI officials.

    Why Politifact.com or others didn’t also go to Chicago to view / handle the document themselves during the campaign (or even if they had permission to) is unknown.

    The only logical conclusion that can be drawn by the evidence at hand is that the online COLB release and the FactCheck.org report, along with the initial confirmations from the HI DOH all took place soon after one another and that major news organizations and investigative organizations were satisfied by the evidence provided at that time (and by FactCheck’s hands-on reporting) and considered further investigation themselves unnecessary.

  161. avatar
    G June 22, 2010 at 2:57 pm #

    G: Why Politifact.com or others didn’t also go to Chicago to view / handle the document themselves during the campaign (or even if they had permission to) is unknown.

    The only logical conclusion that can be drawn by the evidence at hand is that the online COLB release and the FactCheck.org report, along with the initial confirmations from the HI DOH all took place soon after one another and that major news organizations and investigative organizations were satisfied by the evidence provided at that time (and by FactCheck’s hands-on reporting) and considered further investigation themselves unnecessary.

    I have no idea what tripped the moderation filter this time, but I wanted to provide some additional follow-up points to my research on the time-line issue, (which hopefully you’ll all eventually be able to read what I wrote, once Dr. C get’s around to releasing it).

    The additional point I wanted to make is that to understand what was happening during that summer of 2008, after the COLB was released and try to figure out why everyone seemed to be fine with Factcheck.org’s initial report and not do their own inquiry into examining an actual document themselves.

    I think World Net Daily (WND) is a prime example and reason for that time period.

    Their initial report on their findings on this issue on August 23, 2008 stated:


    “A separate WND investigation into Obama’s birth certificate utilizing forgery experts also found the document to be authentic. The investigation also revealed methods used by some of the bloggers to determine the document was fake involved forgeries, in that a few bloggers added text and images to the certificate scan that weren’t originally there.”

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=73214

    You must remember, that at this time, this was just days prior to the DNC convention, so the whole BC issue was really something only being flogged by PUMAs and WND hadn’t moved on to figuring out which smear tactics it thought could work in the general election.

    After the DNC convention was over, the remaining PUMAs started blindly moving over to support McCain & Palin and bring along their whack-a-doodle conspiracy ideas into conservative websites, where the smears caught on again.

    WND, which is after all, nothing but a disingenuous right-wing smear rag (and no stranger to concocting & spreading conspiracies), quickly realized that their target audience was both very gullible and had short memories and therefore were ripe for the fleecing.

    So eventually, you saw them get in front of this issue and quietly try to pretend that they never wrote that other article debunking the birther myths. Instead, they jumped on the bandwagon and started selling “Where’s the Birth Certificate?” signs & other merchandise with flaunting advertisements throughout many of their articles to try to fleece their gullible flock.

    For WND, the issue isn’t about the truth. It is merely an agenda-based & profit-based business opportunity to create their own golden goose and try to damage Obama & the democrats while they are at it.

  162. avatar
    misha June 22, 2010 at 3:36 pm #

    I cannot find the link, but I knew during the campaign, that Obama’s COLB was available for inspection in Chicago. In fact, I eagerly read factcheck.org’s report when it was first posted.

    Since Orly has the means to flit between California and Israel, she surely could have gotten her crazy pudendum over to Chi Town, and looked at the thing. Doesn’t matter: to be president, both parents have to be US citizens at the time of birth. Orly insists it’s in our Constitution.

    In defense of Paul P., I am fed up with Orly, Avigdor and the rest of their crowd. Note to Israel: please vote Labour back in.

  163. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 22, 2010 at 3:38 pm #

    G: You often have to wade through pages of birther commentary before finding actual news reports and it is even more difficult tracking down such obscure sound bytes.

    Sometimes you will get better results searching at http://news.google.com.

  164. avatar
    G June 22, 2010 at 3:51 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Sometimes you will get better results searching at http://news.google.com.

    Thanks!

  165. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 22, 2010 at 4:01 pm #

    nc1: Information leaks are everywhere around us in the society. Yet we are supposed to assume that no such thing is possible within the State Elections office in Hawaii or Kapiolani Hospital!?

    Sure, it’s always possible that someone violated policy or broke the law. It’s just that the birther mythology requires virtually everyone involved to act stupidly, break the law, ignore policy, and even ignore their own self interests all to make it “possible” (and I use that word lightly) that their theories could have happened.

    Eventually the rational person should step back and realize that they have made far too many implausible suppositions.

    I suppose one could make some kind of a game where they challenge someone to “prove something is impossible” and then spend the rest of their life spinning scenarios where it “might” be possible and expecting the opponent to prove otherwise. However, things like are only rational as entertainment, not a way of making public policy or directing one’s life (present company excepted).

  166. avatar
    Bovril June 22, 2010 at 4:41 pm #

    Ah so for NC1, the fact that sometimes people screw up and information leaks, that is a solid reason to break the law.

    “Well your honor, people get accidently run over all the time, so what’s the difference if I deliberately drove into the bus stop full of nuns…?”

  167. avatar
    Expelliarmus June 22, 2010 at 4:49 pm #

    misha: I cannot find the link, but I knew during the campaign, that Obama’s COLB was available for inspection in Chicago.

    Misha, Factcheck apparently went to Chicago in response to an invitation that was sent to many journalists to view the birth certificate — probably similar to announcing a press conference. I believe that the director of Factcheck explained this in an email to someone who inquired, and then later cross-posted the info in a forum or blog. However, Factcheck appears to be the only ones who actually showed up.

    The bottom line is that there is not a single reported instance of any journalist — or any individual — claiming to have contacted the campaign, ASKING to look at the COLB, and being turned down. Rather, the focus has been entirely on efforts to get the State DOH to “release” the so-called long-form birth certificate.

    I think that the “birthers” consist of a few very savvy people at the heart of the “movement” and whole bunch of quite ignorant and unthinking followers. The savvy people know exactly what they are doing — they are stirring up “doubt” by deliberately demanding documents that they know are unavailable, protected by privacy laws, and unlikely to be produced. The real agenda of people like Corsi is to dig around for more dirt, using documents such as school records as investigative leads to something else that could be politically embarrassing to Obama — for example, that Obama might have taken a class from a professor whose writings could be exploited to create controversy.

    Verifying Obama’s birth doesn’t serve their agenda — so as soon as Obama produced the COLB, they shifted to asking to see something else.

  168. avatar
    Expelliarmus June 22, 2010 at 4:59 pm #

    Black Lion: He responds with the usual birther list of lies and nonsense…

    “I understand the chairman of the Electoral College did not follow protocol and failed to ask for any objections to Barack’s eligibility to be President,

    Of course there is no such thing as “the chairman of the Electoral College”.

    (He’s mixed up the “Electoral College” with the US Congress, and some elusive “chairman” with the former Vice President of the US, Dick Cheney…. who, of course, has to be portrayed as some sort of wimp who is part of the massive conspiracy to install Obama as President for the birther narrative to be sustained.)

  169. avatar
    Expelliarmus June 22, 2010 at 5:10 pm #

    nc1: Yes he offered access to factcheck.org exclusively – it was not an open invitation to anybody else who might have been interested.

    Brooks Jackson, the director of Factcheck, told someone who inquired that the media was invited to the Obama Campaign HQ to inspect Obama’s COLB, and that FactCheck was the only one that bothered to go. I know the person he told, but I don’t have something I could cite to (like an article). But that is the source of the info and you can verify it yourself if you want. I don’t know if there was one media event, or simply an open invitation.

    Again: can you cite any instance of a person asking to inspect the COLB and being refused access?

  170. avatar
    Izzybella June 22, 2010 at 5:20 pm #

    In my experiences with a few people who doubt Obama’s citizenship, the main reason they claim that they did not question his birth certificate before the election was that they were convinced he could not win. My own mother, who never ventures out into the internet or news world beyond Beck and Hannity, told me that there was no possible way Obama would ever win the election. I provided her with poll numbers to the contrary, but she refused to believe me. She was 100% certain of her stance, and she was actually very surprised when she was wrong. A couple of my family members tried the whole “two parent” thing, but quickly gave it up when I pointed out that it meant my grandparents could not be NBC. Now they are all just biding their time until the amazingness that is Sarah Palin wins in a landslide in 2012.

  171. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 22, 2010 at 5:48 pm #

    Expelliarmus: Misha, Factcheck apparently went to Chicago in response to an invitation that was sent to many journalists to view the birth certificate — probably similar to announcing a press conference. I believe that the director of Factcheck explained this in an email to someone who inquired, and then later cross-posted the info in a forum or blog. However, Factcheck appears to be the only ones who actually showed up.

    I emailed Brooks Jackson, the director of FactCheck.org about this question. His reply is:

    We were invited over after I had pinged on the staff. I don’t know if any other reporter ever asked. I never heard of anybody else asking, or being turned down….

    [Tommy Vietor] …who was handling this, told us to come over and make our own pictures if that’s what we wanted. I vaguely recall that he said he’d do the same for any reporter who asked, but I am not 100% sure of that.

  172. avatar
    BatGuano June 22, 2010 at 5:54 pm #

    nc1:
    I don’t see any reason for Hospital to be reluctant to respond to such a benign request from the State Elections office

    nc1. are you a lawyer ?

  173. avatar
    misha June 22, 2010 at 5:59 pm #

    Izzybella: if my mother, aleha ha-shalom, were alive she would have said a black man could never beat McCain. I can hear her, ‘it will never happen.’

    And that was behind Kristols’ insistance for Palin. He cynically believed that a black man could not win, and was counting on McCain dropping dead – and then the neocons would have a puppet. It’s just like the neocons played on Bush’s evangelicals beliefs, to convince him to attack Iraq. Something else: Israelis regard evangelicals as useful idiots. As Sharon once said of evangelicals’ core belief in Armageddon: “You don’t have to buy the whole package.”

    So you have both sides cynically using each other: evangelicals want to expand the settlements, to hasten the return of their lord. Israelis wanting to expand the settlements, to grab as much as they can. Israelis truly believe there will be President Palin in ’12, and they’ll get carte blance.

    It’s the most bizarre symbiotic relationship anyone could imagine.

  174. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 22, 2010 at 8:23 pm #

    nc1: The elections office was bombarded with questions about Obama’s birthplace.

    According to Glen Takahashi, the administrator of the Honolulu City Clerk’s office, the office that oversees the Elections Division where Tim Adams worked:

    Takahashi explained that the “senior elections clerk” job that Adams held was a low-level data entry position dealing with voter registration and absentee ballots — Adams was one of dozens of temporary employees who staffed the pre-election rush. And he contradicted Adams’s claims that Obama’s lack of a birth certificate was an “open secret” or that voters contacted the office to ask about it.

    “To be honest, I fielded no questions about that,” Takahashi said. “Why would anyone ask us? We don’t have those records.”

    The Washington Post

    That’s got to smart.

  175. avatar
    Expelliarmus June 22, 2010 at 9:00 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I don’t know if any other reporter ever asked. I never heard of anybody else asking, or being turned down….

    [Tommy Vietor] …who was handling this, told us to come over and make our own pictures if that’s what we wanted.

    More:

    It hit our inbox just like the chain e-mail attacks that made us want it in the first place, the final piece to a puzzle we’ve been sorting out for months.

    Sen. Barack Obama’s birth certificate.

    “I know there have been some rumors spreading about Obama’s citizenship, so I wanted to make sure you all had a copy of his birth certificate,” Obama spokesman Tommy Vietor wrote in an e-mail.

    The document shows that Barack Hussein Obama II was born Aug. 4, 1961, at 7:24 p.m. in Honolulu. His mother is Stanley Ann Dunham, and his father is Barack Hussein Obama. There is no Muhammed in his name.

    Shortly after we posted this document on PolitiFact.com, some readers questioned its authenticity….

    To verify we did have the correct document, we contacted the Hawaii Department of Health, which maintains such records.

    “It’s a valid Hawaii state birth certificate,” spokesman Janice Okubo said after we e-mailed her our copy.

    Amy Hollyfield, Staff Writer, St. Petersburg Times, June 18, 2008

    The initial description, makes it sound like it was a mass email — and clearly anyone in the media who received an email from Vietor would have had his name and the same ability that Factcheck did to contact him and ask for more.

    I think that the fact that the St. Petersburg Times chose to email the birth certificate to the Hawaii Dept. of Health is more telling, though. If the document was fraudulent, then the agency that purportedly issued it wouldn’t confirm it as “valid”. And it makes a lot more sense to go straight to the source –the issuing agency — than to go on some sort of paper chase involving inspections or forensic document examination. So I can see why most journalists wouldn’t waste their time with a hands on inspection and photographs.

  176. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 23, 2010 at 12:05 am #

    Expelliarmus: And it makes a lot more sense to go straight to the source –the issuing agency — than to go on some sort of paper chase involving inspections or forensic document examination. So I can see why most journalists wouldn’t waste their time with a hands on inspection and photographs.

    FactCheck.org published the birth certificate scan that we saw on Politico, Daily KOS and Fight the Smears, on June 16, 2008. However it was not until the following August, after claims of forgery had been fermenting for two months, that they took some pictures.

  177. avatar
    Rickey June 23, 2010 at 12:42 am #

    Ellid: Rickey –
    Even better, the source for Maya Soetoro-Ng’s quote was a HIGH SCHOOL NEWSPAPER.Not precisely what I would call a bastion of fact-checking or great journalism, no matter how sincere the kids who ran it were.

    Thanks to you and Bob for clearing that up.

  178. avatar
    G June 23, 2010 at 1:08 am #

    Expelliarmus: I think that the fact that the St. Petersburg Times chose to email the birth certificate to the Hawaii Dept. of Health is more telling, though. If the document was fraudulent, then the agency that purportedly issued it wouldn’t confirm it as “valid”. And it makes a lot more sense to go straight to the source –the issuing agency — than to go on some sort of paper chase involving inspections or forensic document examination. So I can see why most journalists wouldn’t waste their time with a hands on inspection and photographs.

    That was the exact same verification process that Politifact.com followed, as I documented above – to contact the HI DOH for verification instead of wanting to actually see the physical piece of paper.

    Thank you for your explanation of why they would do that – makes perfect rational sense.

  179. avatar
    dunstvangeet June 23, 2010 at 1:36 am #

    G: That was the exact same verification process that Politifact.com followed, as I documented above – to contact the HI DOH for verification instead of wanting to actually see the physical piece of paper.

    Politifact and the St. Petersburg Times are one entity. When he was saying “St. Petersburg Times” he meant the article written on Politifact.

  180. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 23, 2010 at 1:42 am #

    Rickey: Even better, the source for Maya Soetoro-Ng’s quote was a HIGH SCHOOL NEWSPAPER.Not precisely what I would call a bastion of fact-checking or great journalism, no matter how sincere the kids who ran it were.

    Thanks to you and Bob for clearing that up.

    Let me clear it up further: the statement in the high school newspaper, the Rainbow Edition, was NOT a quote from anyone. Maya Soetoro-Ng is quoted in the article, but not quoted giving a hospital name. That was a statement by the student reporter.

    http://www.radiodujour.com/people/berg_philip/pdf/057_2%20Exhibit%20Charter%20Schools%20Rainbow%20Edition%20Newsletter.pdf

  181. avatar
    nc1 June 23, 2010 at 4:59 am #

    Expelliarmus: More:Amy Hollyfield, Staff Writer, St. Petersburg Times, June 18, 2008The initial description, makes it sound like it was a mass email — and clearly anyone in the media who received an email from Vietor would have had his name and the same ability that Factcheck did to contact him and ask for more. I think that the fact that the St. Petersburg Times chose to email the birth certificate to the Hawaii Dept. of Health is more telling, though. If the document was fraudulent, then the agency that purportedly issued it wouldn’t confirm it as “valid”. And it makes a lot more sense to go straight to the source –the issuing agency — than to go on some sort of paper chase involving inspections or forensic document examination. So I can see why most journalists wouldn’t waste their time with a hands on inspection and photographs.

    The same Politifact says the following in the follow up report:
    “Still, she acknowledges: “I don’t know that it’s possible for us to even say beyond a doubt what the image on the site represents.”

    That was the final quote from Okubo regarding the Obama’s COLB image.

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/

    Instead of beating around a bush, Politifact investigators should have asked her a simple question: Did Hawaii DoH issue a COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007?

  182. avatar
    misha June 23, 2010 at 5:06 am #

    nc1: Instead of beating around a bush, Politifact investigators should have asked her a simple question: Did Hawaii DoH issue a COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007?

    Hawaii Department of Health: (808) 586-4400

  183. avatar
    nc1 June 23, 2010 at 5:14 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: According to Glen Takahashi, the administrator of the Honolulu City Clerk’s office, the office that oversees the Elections Division where Tim Adams worked:
    Takahashi explained that the “senior elections clerk” job that Adams held was a low-level data entry position dealing with voter registration and absentee ballots — Adams was one of dozens of temporary employees who staffed the pre-election rush. And he contradicted Adams’s claims that Obama’s lack of a birth certificate was an “open secret” or that voters contacted the office to ask about it.

    “To be honest, I fielded no questions about that,” Takahashi said. “Why would anyone ask us? We don’t have those records.”

    That’s got to smart.

    Takahashi has to cover his behind. He has to protect his job/pension/health benefits ,…

    I have received a confidential information from a colleague at work who told me not to quote him because he would deny it.

  184. avatar
    misha June 23, 2010 at 5:27 am #

    nc1: I have received a confidential information from a colleague at work who told me not to quote him because he would deny it.

    I call BS. I’ll stick my neck out, and say you don’t live in Honolulu, nor do you know anyone at the DOH.

  185. avatar
    nc1 June 23, 2010 at 5:29 am #

    Greg: …Before Clinton arrived at Columbia Hospital, the hospital lawyers sent out a stern e-mail warning all employees not to look at his files in any way. Between 17 and 30 employees, including at least 2 physicians, were suspended or fired.

    You have undermined your own argument. Despite the stern warning issued by hospital lawyers a large number of Columbia Hospital employees did exactly the opposite.

    Why do you assume that Kapiolani Hospital employees would behave differently? They would only have to open the birth register index from 1961 and check the entries for August 4.

  186. avatar
    nc1 June 23, 2010 at 5:32 am #

    misha: I call BS. I’ll stick my neck out, and say you don’t live in Honolulu, nor do you know anyone at the DOH.

    I am not talking about the COLB but a private example from my company. It was used as an illustration that people are willing to share the confidential information but wanted to remain an anonimous source.

  187. avatar
    nc1 June 23, 2010 at 5:40 am #

    misha: Hawaii Department of Health:      

    Politifact boasted on that web page about the scope of their investigation yet they did not ask a basic question. Their work is a smoke screen, they are not interested in finding the truth about Obama’s birthplace.

    Okubo has been asked many times to confirm the issuing of COLB to Obama – she refused to do it.

  188. avatar
    misha June 23, 2010 at 5:50 am #

    nc1: Politifact boasted on that web page about the scope of their investigation yet they did not ask a basic question. Their work is a smoke screen, they are not interested in finding the truth about Obama’s birthplace.

    Snore.

    Okubo has been asked many times to confirm the issuing of COLB to Obama – she refused to do it.

    Links please.

    “Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawaii, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures,” DOH Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said.

    http://www.kitv.com/politics/17860890/detail.html

  189. avatar
    misha June 23, 2010 at 5:55 am #

    nc1: They would only have to open the birth register index from 1961 and check the entries for August 4.

    And leave a trail, starting with their password – which is how the Columbia Hospital employees were caught.

  190. avatar
    nc1 June 23, 2010 at 5:55 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I emailed Brooks Jackson, the director of FactCheck.org about this question. His reply is:…

    I asked Factcheck about methods used in verifying the authenticity of Obama’s COLB. I asked them specifically about the registration number, the use of phrases Filed by Registrar vs Accepted by State Registrar and the use of two different date formats on the Obama’s COLB image. They never replied nor did they explain it on their web page.

    The factcheck’s (sarcasm) sophisticated (/sarcasm) verification process could be used to prove that Arnold Schwarzenegger was born in Hawaii too. If presented with such a COLB document, factcheck would have to declare it authentic, after all they could see the presence of the seal and the rubber-stamped signature.

  191. avatar
    nc1 June 23, 2010 at 6:06 am #

    misha: And leave a trail, starting with their password – which is how the Columbia Hospital employees were caught.

    Would you care to repeat (for all of us reading this blog) the number of Columbia Hospital employess who did it despite the warning. Does it tell you anything about human behavior?

    In addition to electronic records there is a registration book in the archive. All you need is one person with the acces to the archive who would be curious to check birth registration index and then share it with a friend. Do you think this could be kept secret from wider audience if it contradicited the official birthplace story?

  192. avatar
    nc1 June 23, 2010 at 6:19 am #

    misha: Links please.“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawaii, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures,” DOH Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said.http://www.kitv.com/politics/17860890/detail.html

    Her statement does not say whether the original birth certificate was created in the Kapiolani Hospital or whether it was prepared based on the statement from a relative. It is quite possible that her statement was based on a fraudulent unattended birth registration.

    If there was nothing to hide, Obama would have released the original birth certificate. In that case there would be no need for speculation. We would know whether the official birthplace story were true.

  193. avatar
    misha June 23, 2010 at 6:27 am #

    nc1: It is quite possible that her statement was based on a fraudulent unattended birth registration.

    It is quite possible you are suffering from clinical paranoia.

  194. avatar
    misha June 23, 2010 at 6:33 am #

    nc1: In addition to electronic records there is a registration book in the archive. All you need is one person with the acces to the archive who would be curious to check birth registration index and then share it with a friend. Do you think this could be kept secret from wider audience if it contradicited the official birthplace story?

    Have you thought about making a living as a fiction writer? You have quite an imagination. One flaw, though: where is this person who may have seen this registration book? And if it contradicted the official story, why has this person not leaked it? I’m sure the National Enquirer would be fast with the checkbook…

  195. avatar
    Scientist June 23, 2010 at 6:38 am #

    Come on birthers. Even your man, Tim Adams, says that Obama is eligible and those questioning that are motivated by either racism or politics. If you want to take seriously what he says then you can’t cherry pick those statements you like and ignore the ones you don’t.

    Obama is eligible and is President. That is the bottom line. deal with it.

  196. avatar
    Expelliarmus June 23, 2010 at 7:26 am #

    nc1: Her statement does not say whether the original birth certificate was created in the Kapiolani Hospital or whether it was prepared based on the statement from a relative. It is quite possible that her statement was based on a fraudulent unattended birth registration.

    That stuff is irrelevant. A birth certificate prepared in any way, shape, or form is still a LEGAL, VALID birth certificate. It doesn’t matter what is “possible”. As a matter of LAW — the existence of a Hawaii birth certificate on file with th DOH DEFINITIVELY ESTABLISHES the fact of birth.

    If you don’t like it, that’s your problem. It’s just like if a person has a license to drive, then they are legally deemed qualified to drive even if you think that person is a lousy driver; if a person is registered to vote, they are allowed to vote — even if you think that there is some reason that they should not be allowed to vote.

    We live in a nation of LAWS. The LAWS of every state provide a system of registration of birth. You can’t UNDO a birth registration 48 years after the fact — and nobody is required to prove anything about th birth.

  197. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 23, 2010 at 7:52 am #

    nc1: In addition to electronic records there is a registration book in the archive.

    The problem is that you must make this stuff up and say it as if it were some kind of fact. You don’t know what you’ve said is true. This is just like your claim that the Hawaii Elections Division was peppered with questions about Obama’s eligibility (and it was proven that no one was asking). Until you can distinguish between your imagination and facts, I’d just as soon you not waste our time.

  198. avatar
    Ellid June 23, 2010 at 7:55 am #

    NC, you’ve been shown that same quote from Chiyome Fukino at least a hundred times. Why do you still insist that it’s not adequate for your purposes? Are you really that blinded by hatred for the legally elected President?

  199. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 23, 2010 at 8:11 am #

    nc1: I asked Factcheck about methods used in verifying the authenticity of Obama’s COLB. I asked them specifically about the registration number, the use of phrases Filed by Registrar vs Accepted by State Registrar and the use of two different date formats on the Obama’s COLB image. They never replied nor did they explain it on their web page.

    Your specific questions are ones for the Hawaii Department of Health, not FactCheck.org. Janice Okubo with the DoH said that the forms are accepted, then filed. Nobody is going to be able to tell you anything about the registration number–too long ago. The different date format anomaly (the date up top has extra space following day while one at the bottom does not), if anything, is evidence of the authenticity of the COLB because other Hawaiian COLB’s have the same anomaly including this one from the Ron Polarik collection: http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/file0015-cropped-300×292.jpg.

  200. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 23, 2010 at 8:15 am #

    nc1: Takahashi has to cover his behind. He has to protect his job/pension/health benefits

    nc1, give it up. Everyone is in on the conspiracy except you.

  201. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 23, 2010 at 8:54 am #

    nc1: Takahashi has to cover his behind. He has to protect his job/pension/health benefits ,…I have received a confidential information from a colleague at work who told me not to quote him because he would deny it.

    Wow more hearsay “evidence” So now a colleague at work told you something that he/she heard and you instantly believe it. Boy are you gullible

  202. avatar
    Bovril June 23, 2010 at 9:26 am #

    nc1: You have undermined your own argument. Despite the stern warning issued by hospital lawyers a large number of Columbia Hospital employees did exactly the opposite.
    Why do you assume that Kapiolani Hospital employees would behave differently? They would only have to open the birth register index from 1961 and check the entries for August 4.

    NC1

    What part of “challenged” are you.?

    It has already been stated as FACT (not hearsay or supposition) that indeed various forms of data leakage occurs in many many environments.

    It is also a FACT, that accessing certain categories or classes of data, without the appropriate authorization and approval or without connection with a legitimate end need can lead to be civil and criminal penalities

    The cases mentioned had individuals who had ACCESS but not AUTHORIZATION or APPROVAL to sensitive data.

    The act of accessing such data led to the penalties as mentioned by Dr C above.

    So, this strengthens your thesis that President Obama is not legitimate in what way, please do tell, we would all love to know.

  203. avatar
    Izzybella June 23, 2010 at 10:33 am #

    I am amazed at the sheer number of people that some claim are willingly putting their careers and/or morals on the line to lie and cover up for Obama.

  204. avatar
    misha June 23, 2010 at 11:33 am #

    Izzybella: I am amazed at the sheer number of people that some claim are willingly putting their careers and/or morals on the line to lie and cover up for Obama.

    Orly actually said on Israeli TV, that Obama paid off McCain.

  205. avatar
    Greg June 23, 2010 at 12:04 pm #

    nc1: Why do you assume that Kapiolani Hospital employees would behave differently?

    Let us review what the state of evidence is:

    Tim Adams said that he heard from his boss (hearsay 1), who heard from the hospital (hearsay 2), that Obama didn’t have a birth record.

    The fact that it is a fireable offense to access medical records without authorization and a fireable offense to share medical information without permission makes it less likely that hearsay 2 happened the way the Adams says he heard about from his boss (hearsay 1). It makes it less likely that:

    An email, a recorded voice mail message, fax

    exists.

    It puts the lie to this statement:

    I don’t see any reason for Hospital to be reluctant to respond to such a benign request from the State Elections office.

    So, on the one hand, we’ve got double hearsay (a friend of a friend) and on the other we’ve got the boss denying the hearsay and we’ve got a couple of fireable offenses making the hearsay (#2) less likely.

    Why should we believe Adams, again? Because it’s possible that someone risked their job to share information about medical records? Because it’s possible that the boss is covering his butt now? Because you really want it to be true?

  206. avatar
    nc1 June 23, 2010 at 12:11 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The problem is that you must make this stuff up and say it as if it were some kind of fact. You don’t know what you’ve said is true. This is just like your claim that the Hawaii Elections Division was peppered with questions about Obama’s eligibility (and it was proven that no one was asking). Until you can distinguish between your imagination and facts, I’d just as soon you not waste our time.

    It is Takahashi’s word against Adams’. Takahashi cannot say anything different because his job and benefits are on the line.

    The reason why I trust Adams is simple. There would be no need to hide the trivial information about birth in the Kapiolani Hospital if it were true. Observing Obama’s behavior gives you enough clues that the official birthplace story is a fabrication.

  207. avatar
    misha June 23, 2010 at 12:20 pm #

    nc1: It is Takahashi’s word against Adams’. Takahashi cannot say anything different because his job and benefits are on the line. The reason why I trust Adams is simple. There would be no need to hide the trivial information about birth in the Kapiolani Hospital if it were true. Observing Obama’s behavior gives you enough clues that the official birthplace story is a fabrication.

    Adams’ behavior is of a pathological liar.

    Listen, I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. So tell me if this would help your case.

  208. avatar
    nc1 June 23, 2010 at 12:21 pm #

    Greg: Let us review what the state of evidence is: Tim Adams said that he heard from his boss (hearsay 1), who heard from the hospital (hearsay 2), that Obama didn’t have a birth record. The fact that it is a fireable offense to access medical records without authorization and a fireable offense to share medical information without permission makes it less likely that hearsay 2 happened the way the Adams says he heard about from his boss (hearsay 1). It makes it less likely that: exists. It puts the lie to this statement:So, on the one hand, we’ve got double hearsay (a friend of a friend) and on the other we’ve got the boss denying the hearsay and we’ve got a couple of fireable offenses making the hearsay (#2) less likely. Why should we believe Adams, again? Because it’s possible that someone risked their job to share information about medical records? Because it’s possible that the boss is covering his butt now? Because you really want it to be true?

    1. Why would Obama hide the trivial fact about his birthplace if the official story were true?

    2. Before you quote me out of context, read the thread. I never said that email, voice message or fax existed. I said that I hoped that Adams had some kind of material evidence to back up his claim because I anticipated that the state elections office officials would say that Adams is not telling the truth.

    They have to protect their jobs and benefits. Adams can freely speak his mind.

    Obama could end this whole debate in an instant by authorizing the release of the original birth certificate. He won’t do it because there is no document that would indicate Kapiolani as a birth hospital.

  209. avatar
    Scientist June 23, 2010 at 12:23 pm #

    nc1: The reason why I trust Adams is simple

    Adams says that Obama is eligible and those who say otherwise are racists or political hacks. Which one are you?

  210. avatar
    nc1 June 23, 2010 at 12:25 pm #

    misha: Adams’ behavior is of a pathological liar.Listen, I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. So tell me if this would help your case.

    Unlike Adams, Obama has been proven a habitual liar (how many campaign trail promises did he break). How many lies did he tell in his “autobiography”?

    Why would you trust anything he says about his birthplace when an easy verification is possible is beyond my comprehension.

  211. avatar
    Scientist June 23, 2010 at 12:30 pm #

    nc1: Unlike Adams, Obama has been proven a habitual liar (how many campaign trail promises did he break).

    While his record is not perfect, he has actually kept a higher percentage than other recent Presidents. Remember Bush and his “humble” foreign policy.

    nc1: How many lies did he tell in his “autobiography”?

    Name one thing in it that has been proven to be untrue.

    Adams says that Obama is eligible and those who say otherwise are racists or political hacks. Which one are you?

  212. avatar
    misha June 23, 2010 at 12:32 pm #

    nc1: Unlike Adams, Obama has been proven a habitual liar…

    Good point: GWB: “The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa .”

    And, God told me to invade Iraq.

  213. avatar
    nc1 June 23, 2010 at 12:38 pm #

    Bovril: NC1What part of “challenged” are you.?It has already been stated as FACT (not hearsay or supposition) that indeed various forms of data leakage occurs in many many environments.It is also a FACT, that accessing certain categories or classes of data, without the appropriate authorization and approval or without connection with a legitimate end need can lead to be civil and criminal penalitiesThe cases mentioned had individuals who had ACCESS but not AUTHORIZATION or APPROVAL to sensitive data.The act of accessing such data led to the penalties as mentioned by Dr C above.So, this strengthens your thesis that President Obama is not legitimate in what way, please do tell, we would all love to know.

    You have missed the mark completely. I am only saying that it is quite possible that people would leak this kind of information. Obama supporters would want me to believe that a stern warning from a lawyer could somehow prevent people from talking about a confidential issue. Columbia Hospital example shows you that the opposite is true – people are willing to take a chance if they think they could get away with it.

    Takahashi is not stupid – there is no way he will confirm Adams’ story unless there is a material evidence against him. If they only talked about the issue in the office – there is no way you can prove it without a formal investigation.

  214. avatar
    Izzybella June 23, 2010 at 12:40 pm #

    misha: Orly actually said on Israeli TV, that Obama paid off McCain.

    So, Obama has an astonishing amount of power and money in order to influence countless government officials, agencies, judges, news organizations, and individuals to lie for him, and he still has critics? In fact, some of his most vocal critics are on the list of people who are lying and covering up for him. How is it he can shut them up over his birth certificate, but not on any other issues?

  215. avatar
    nc1 June 23, 2010 at 12:44 pm #

    misha: Good point: GWB: “The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa .”And, God told me to invade Iraq.

    Why would you blindly trust a government official when we know that in the past government officials told lies to the public? In Obama’s case the verification of the offical story is trivial compared to the Iraq WMD story. There is no need to invade a foreign country to find out the truth.

    Where is the long form birth certificate indicating Kapiolani hospital as Obama’s birthplace?

  216. avatar
    Scientist June 23, 2010 at 12:44 pm #

    nc1: You have missed the mark completely

    Adams says that Obama is eligible and those who say otherwise are racists or political hacks. Which one are you?

    I will keep asking until I get an answer. There are only 2 choices so it should be easy.

  217. avatar
    misha June 23, 2010 at 12:48 pm #

    nc1: Where is the long form birth certificate indicating Kapiolani hospital as Obama’s birthplace?

    It’s right here!

  218. avatar
    bob June 23, 2010 at 12:49 pm #

    Obama says he was born in Hawaii. Moreover, the State of Hawaii says Obama was born in Hawaii.

    But if some low-level temp, who has no personal knowledge of the matter, and is instead relying on rumor and gossip, and has presented no evidence to support this claim of foreign birth (and no evidence even to support his claim that someone told him anything)….

  219. avatar
    nc1 June 23, 2010 at 12:51 pm #

    Scientist: While his record is not perfect, he has actually kept a higher percentage than other recent Presidents. Remember Bush and his “humble” foreign policy.Name one thing in it that has been proven to be untrue.Adams says that Obama is eligible and those who say otherwise are racists or political hacks. Which one are you?

    Using lies told by Bush to justify lies told by Obama. Wonderful.

    The book claimed that JFK was involved in bringing Obama’s father to US. The truth is different, Obama’s father arrived to Hawaii two years prior to Kennedy’s involvement in that program.

    Adams has no way of knowing what the motivation of the people who question Obama’s eligibility is. It is one thing to talk about facts and another to offer an opinion. He is trying to soften the blow because of the attack on him

  220. avatar
    bob June 23, 2010 at 12:52 pm #

    nc1: Why would you blindly trust a government official when we know that in the past government officials told lies to the public?

    You mean like Tim Adams, a government official employed by the City and County of Honolulu?

  221. avatar
    Black Lion June 23, 2010 at 12:58 pm #

    bob: Obama says he was born in Hawaii. Moreover, the State of Hawaii says Obama was born in Hawaii.But if some low-level temp, who has no personal knowledge of the matter, and is instead relying on rumor and gossip, and has presented no evidence to support this claim of foreign birth (and no evidence even to support his claim that someone told him anything)….

    It is amazing what hating Obama causes people to believe. If we were in court and NC1 was on trial and the major piece of evidence was that someone said that they heard that nc1 was the killer, should we take his word for it just because it was “possible”? Or would you require some sort of additional proof? In this case we have an individual that made a claim that he heard someone say something, provided no evidence, and would not have access to said information. Yet Adams is more believable than the Governor of HI and the director of Health, that stated that “Barack Obama was BORN IN HAWAII”. If you choose to belive Adams, then you are a person that truly wants to believe in conspiracy theories. Because most regular people would believe the director of Health, who’s job it is to see the actual document, over someone that is repeating inadmissible hearsay information.

  222. avatar
    Scientist June 23, 2010 at 1:09 pm #

    nc1: The book claimed that JFK was involved in bringing Obama’s father to US.

    That claim was not made in the book. but in a speech. And there is no evidence it was a lie as opposed to an error. I will be charitable and accept that when you said it was in the book, you made an error rather than told a lie.

    nc1: The truth is different, Obama’s father arrived to Hawaii two years prior to Kennedy’s involvement in that program.

    it was actually one year (September 1959 vs September 1960). Again, I will be charitable and accept that when you said it was 2 years, you made an error rather than told a lie.

    nc1: Adams has no way of knowing what the motivation of the people who question Obama’s eligibility is. It is one thing to talk about facts and another to offer an opinion. He is trying to soften the blow because of the attack on him

    You are now analyzing Adams’ motives. So why can’t he analyze yours? Nothing Adams has said can be deemed facts. You simply choose to credit a few of his statements and ignore the rest.

  223. avatar
    Black Lion June 23, 2010 at 1:31 pm #

    nc1: Using lies told by Bush to justify lies told by Obama. Wonderful. The book claimed that JFK was involved in bringing Obama’s father to US. The truth is different, Obama’s father arrived to Hawaii two years prior to Kennedy’s involvement in that program.Adams has no way of knowing what the motivation of the people who question Obama’s eligibility is. It is one thing to talk about facts and another to offer an opinion. He is trying to soften the blow because of the attack on him

    So believe Adams when he says that he “heard” from other people that Obama did not have a HI birth certificate but don’t believe him when he says that the people who question Obama are racists or political opportunists…OK..We got it…Only believe Adams for the stuff that helps the birthers, but ignore him with everything else…

  224. avatar
    Greg June 23, 2010 at 1:36 pm #

    nc1: The book claimed that JFK was involved in bringing Obama’s father to US.

    Page number, please.

    It’s not in his autobiography.

    And, it wasn’t 2 years before Kennedy’s involvement. Obama Sr. came in the September 1959 airlift, which was funded by dozens of prominent Americans, including Harry Belafonte, Martin Luther King Jr, Thurgood Marshall and Jackie Robinson but not the Kennedys who became involved in July 1960, 10 months later.

    Now, have you told a lie? Or did you make a simple mistake? Apparently, the BBC thought Kennedy was involved. And, Harry Belafonte who did donate to the 1959 airlift, thinks JFK first met with the leaders of the airlift in 1959. Even the Kennedys believed the story.

    To the 69 million people who voted for him, this 10 month discrepancy is the stuff of simple mistake. The airlift was known here as the Kennedy-Kenya airlift and was a big part of the 1960s presidential campaign.

    Why would Obama hide the trivial fact about his birthplace if the official story were true?

    1. How is a letter from the White House to Kapiolani Hospital hiding the fact of his birthplace?

    2. If I act like a crazy person and also ask the President to prove to me that his middle name is really Hussein, does the fact that he doesn’t personally send me confirmation prove that it isn’t?

    Seems to me that if 69 million people vote for him, he’s convinced enough people in the United States that he’s eligible and not responding to every silly question asked of him by a birther could prove only that he thinks the questions are of little value rather than proving that he is avoiding the question.

    I never said that email, voice message or fax existed. I said that I hoped that Adams had some kind of material evidence to back up his claim

    And I said that this possibility was made less likely because it would be a doubly firable offense to share the information.

    The math here is really simple.

    Possibility Adams is mistaken > possibility of a massive coverup!

  225. avatar
    Bovril June 23, 2010 at 2:18 pm #

    nc1: You have missed the mark completely. I am only saying that it is quite possible that people would leak this kind of information. Obama supporters would want me to believe that a stern warning from a lawyer could somehow prevent people from talking about a confidential issue. Columbia Hospital example shows you that the opposite is true – people are willing to take a chance if they think they could get away with it.
    Takahashi is not stupid – there is no way he will confirm Adams’ story unless there is a material evidence against him. If they only talked about the issue in the office – there is no way you can prove it without a formal investigation.

    I have misse not a single iota

    That above BS neothe proces or supports anything about you and your fantasies about the legitimacy of the President….does it, go on, show in any way how data leakage in a wholly unrelated matter has a scintilla of relevance.

    NC1 face the uncomfortable facts, you have no legitimacy, honesty, factual basis or ethical or moral basis to support any of your prejudices.

  226. avatar
    Scientist June 23, 2010 at 2:35 pm #

    If the best that nc1 can come up with for an Obama “lie” is a mis-statement regarding an event that happened to his father before he was born, then Obama must be a very honest person. My late, beloved parents told me many stories, some of which I have repeated. If some clever researcher finds out that I misunderstood what they said or that they were mistaken or embellished, that doesn’t make me a liar. Just a good son.

    And even if everything Obama said about his birth turned out to be untrue (odds <0.0001%) that is still 100x less serious than lies that lead to unnecessary wars.

  227. avatar
    Rickey June 23, 2010 at 2:50 pm #

    nc1:
    The book claimed that JFK was involved in bringing Obama’s father to US. The truth is different, Obama’s father arrived to Hawaii two years prior to Kennedy’s involvement in that program

    The truth is that Obama’s book mentions JFK three times, and none of them have anything to do with Obama’s father. Pages 22, 25 & 67 in the hardcover edition.

    Are you going to acknowledge your untrue allegation?

  228. avatar
    Majority Will June 23, 2010 at 3:19 pm #

    Rickey:
    The truth is that Obama’s book mentions JFK three times, and none of them have anything to do with Obama’s father. Pages 22, 25 & 67 in the hardcover edition.Are you going to acknowledge your untrue allegation?

    If you go to the Washington Independent and look at David Weigel’s articles on birthers (and a few others), you will find a “naturalizedcitizen” (emphasis added on the telling initials) with the same posts based on zero evidence but a HUGE suspicion of conspiracy submitted ad nauseam there that are rehashed almost verbatim in these threads (again ad nauseam). As you can guess, thorough debunking and pointing out outright lies and completely unfounded, bizarre speculation that defies all reason and common sense just sends the troll scurrying down another rabbit hole.

    It’s the “LALALALALALALALA, I Can’t Hear You” Syndrome.

  229. avatar
    Ellid June 23, 2010 at 11:06 pm #

    Even better: Naturalizedcitizen repeatedly insisted that Obama was not telling the truth *and used the example of Colin Powell lying about WMD in Iraq to show that no politician, ever, could be trusted.*

    What’s amusing is that NC has come here, started spouting the same arguments Bearclaw and Monkey99 and Katahdin and I countered, and won’t even acknowledge that I’m here. I guess she figures that if she won’t acknowledge me, I’ll never figure out who she is.

  230. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 23, 2010 at 11:22 pm #

    Ellid: Even better:Naturalizedcitizen repeatedly insisted that Obama was not telling the truth *and used the example of Colin Powell lying about WMD in Iraq to show that no politician, ever, could be trusted.*What’s amusing is that NC has come here, started spouting the same arguments Bearclaw and Monkey99 and Katahdin and I countered, and won’t even acknowledge that I’m here.I guess she figures that if she won’t acknowledge me, I’ll never figure out who she is.

    It sounds like Sally Hill/Scott Brown all over again

  231. avatar
    Mike June 24, 2010 at 4:18 am #

    Ellid: Even better: Naturalizedcitizen repeatedly insisted that Obama was not telling the truth *and used the example of Colin Powell lying about WMD in Iraq to show that no politician, ever, could be trusted.*What’s amusing is that NC has come here, started spouting the same arguments Bearclaw and Monkey99 and Katahdin and I countered, and won’t even acknowledge that I’m here. I guess she figures that if she won’t acknowledge me, I’ll never figure out who she is.

    Don’t forget Borderraven,,,

  232. avatar
    Black Lion June 24, 2010 at 10:37 am #

    I think we are seeing a lot of the hard core birthers coming over here, changing their names, and pretending that they are some sort of new birther that have been swayed by the same birther false facts and are “questioning” the “anti birthers’. What this tells us is that the birthers are upset that Doc’s site is still here debunking their nonsense and it drives them crazy. I guess it must get kind of boring to post the same stuff over at the moderated sites where dissent is prohibited. They come here thinking that they can post their nonsense and no one will challenge them on it. They will eventually get bored and upset and go running back to their “safe sites”….

  233. avatar
    nc1 June 24, 2010 at 11:05 am #

    Black Lion: It is amazing what hating Obama causes people to believe. If we were in court and NC1 was on trial and the major piece of evidence was that someone said that they heard that nc1 was the killer, should we take his word for it just because it was “possible”? Or would you require some sort of additional proof? In this case we have an individual that made a claim that he heard someone say something, provided no evidence, and would not have access to said information. Yet Adams is more believable than the Governor of HI and the director of Health, that stated that “Barack Obama was BORN IN HAWAII”. If you choose to belive Adams, then you are a person that truly wants to believe in conspiracy theories. Because most regular people would believe the director of Health, who’s job it is to see the actual document, over someone that is repeating inadmissible hearsay information.

    Should there be an investigation to find out who is telling the truth? Apparently Obama supprters are scared of the possibility that an investigation could prove them wrong.
    How dificult is it to check the hospital records in order to verify whether the official birthplace story is correct?

    We don’t have to rely on anyone’s word – the evidence is in the archives just needs to be presented to the public.

  234. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 24, 2010 at 11:23 am #

    nc1: Should there be an investigation to find out who is telling the truth? Apparently Obama supprters are scared of the possibility that an investigation could prove them wrong.How dificult is it to check the hospital records in order to verify whether the official birthplace story is correct?We don’t have to rely on anyone’s word – the evidence is in the archives just needs to be presented to the public.

    No one is scared of an investigation. This stuff was investigated and your birther claims have been found wanting. You live in a weird world where innuendo can be used to investigate anything without proof. You must have been a fan of McCarthyism

  235. avatar
    nc1 June 24, 2010 at 11:41 am #

    Bovril: I have misse not a single iotaThat above BS neothe proces or supports anything about you and your fantasies about the legitimacy of the President….does it, go on, show in any way how data leakage in a wholly unrelated matter has a scintilla of relevance.NC1 face the uncomfortable facts, you have no legitimacy, honesty, factual basis or ethical or moral basis to support any of your prejudices.

    I asked the following question earlier but no Obama supporter has been willing to provide an answer. Perhaps you have an explanation:

    Few days ago at the White House press conference Gibbs was asked whether Obama had ever maintained residency in Connecticut.

    He avoided the direct answer to the question and said that the birth certificate has been posted on the web.

    Why does he avoid questions about CT based SSN used by Obama?

  236. avatar
    nc1 June 24, 2010 at 11:49 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): No one is scared of an investigation. This stuff was investigated and your birther claims have been found wanting. You live in a weird world where innuendo can be used to investigate anything without proof. You must have been a fan of McCarthyism

    What is your definition of the word investigation?

    Long form birth certificate is still hidden from public. There is no official confirmation from the DoH that they issued COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007.

  237. avatar
    Black Lion June 24, 2010 at 11:50 am #

    nc1 24. Jun, 2010 at 11:05 am nc1(Quote) #
    Should there be an investigation to find out who is telling the truth? Apparently Obama supprters are scared of the possibility that an investigation could prove them wrong.
    How dificult is it to check the hospital records in order to verify whether the official birthplace story is correct?

    We don’t have to rely on anyone’s word – the evidence is in the archives just needs to be presented to the public.

    Nothing needs to be presented to the public. That is not a Constitutional requirement. 69 million people were satisfied with the proof that was presented. No additional “proof” was required for any of the other 43 Presidents and there is no need for any to be presented for the 44th. Again the governor and the director of Health for HI (who unlike Adams is in the unique position to know and see the relevant documentation), have declared that “Barack Obama was born in HI”. For any rational person, that is all they would need. But the birthers have decided to add some additional requirements. They want the doctor, the hospital and other proof. And even then if that was presented then they would just use the ridiculous “Vattel” definition.

    No one needs to verify anything. I don’t seem to recall that anyone verified where Bush, Clinton, or Reagan was born. I don’t remember there being an issue. “Obama supporters” aren’t afraid of anything because unlike the birthers, they are not trying to rewrite the law and make things up. The word of the governor and the director of Health for HI, along with the COLB is enough for me and most Americans.

  238. avatar
    nc1 June 24, 2010 at 11:55 am #

    Bovril: I have misse not a single iotaThat above BS neothe proces or supports anything about you and your fantasies about the legitimacy of the President….does it, go on, show in any way how data leakage in a wholly unrelated matter has a scintilla of relevance.NC1 face the uncomfortable facts, you have no legitimacy, honesty, factual basis or ethical or moral basis to support any of your prejudices.

    You ignored the points in my answer and proceeded to attack me personally. Why am I not surprised?

    If Obama’s claim of being born in the Kapiolani hospital were true, why is it that the hospital would not confirm it to journalists?

  239. avatar
    nc1 June 24, 2010 at 12:06 pm #

    Scientist: That claim was not made in the book. but in a speech. And there is no evidence it was a lie as opposed to an error. I will be charitable and accept that when you said it was in the book, you made an error rather than told a lie.it was actually one year (September 1959 vs September 1960). Again, I will be charitable and accept that when you said it was 2 years, you made an error rather than told a lie.You are now analyzing Adams’ motives. So why can’t he analyze yours? Nothing Adams has said can be deemed facts. You simply choose to credit a few of his statements and ignore the rest.

    The claim was made by Obama, correct?

    According to the following article Obama’s father was never part of the official airlift:
    “…Although the young Obama Sr. left for the University of Hawaii before the first formal student airlift, he did maintain his friendship with the Hagbergs when he returned to Kenya….”
    http://www.theeastafrican.co.ke/magazine/-/434746/525930/-/view/printVersion/-/i13vxrz/-/index.html

    I read another article claiming that Obama senior came to Hawaii by boat unlike other students who were part of the airlift.

  240. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 24, 2010 at 12:08 pm #

    nc1: What is your definition of the word investigation?Long form birth certificate is still hidden from public. There is no official confirmation from the DoH that they issued COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007.

    I’ve never seen your long form that means you don’t exist right? You’re an illegal alien and undocumented immigrant. This is the same crap you birthers have been saying. A state issued certified copy of Obama’s birth certificate which has been verified by the state. This is more than you’ve seen from any president. What is your definition of the term sanity? It’s obvious you birthers have lost it

  241. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 24, 2010 at 12:10 pm #

    nc1: I asked the following question earlier but no Obama supporter has been willing to provide an answer. Perhaps you have an explanation:Few days ago at the White House press conference Gibbs was asked whether Obama had ever maintained residency in Connecticut. He avoided the direct answer to the question and said that the birth certificate has been posted on the web. Why does he avoid questions about CT based SSN used by Obama?

    This has been explained to you Social Security is a federal entity. They have certain hubs that issue numbers. CT just so happened to be one of them.

  242. avatar
    dunstvangeet June 24, 2010 at 12:11 pm #

    nc1:
    What is your definition of the word investigation?Long form birth certificate is still hidden from public. There is no official confirmation from the DoH that they issued COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007.

    “It’s a valid Hawaii State birth certificate.” –Janice Okubo, Hawaii Department of Health.

    The birth cerficiate “contains all the information for government needs for confirming place of birth” –Janice Okubo, Hawaii Department of Health.

    “Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.” –Cerome Fukino, Director of the Hawaii Department of Health.

    “I cerfity that this is a true abstract or copy of the record on file at the Hawaii Department of Health.” –Alvin T. Onaka, State Registrar.

    You also have statements from the Hawaii Governor, and others that say explicitly that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.

    Just wondering. When you sign your son up for Little League, do they call the state Department of Health to make sure that they issued the birth certificate? When you present your birth certificate for your drivers license, do they check to make sure that the State Department of Health issued it? I’ve never seen the keep the birth certificate for more than 15 seconds, just enough for a quick glance.

    There is absolutely no reason for us to confirm that this was issued on this date. The seal and the signature on the back of it is what certify it, not the date. Hawaii has directly confirmed that Barack Obama was born there in at least 3 ways. Why would they need to confirm that they issued something that was issued to confirm it? Do you want a confirmation on the confirmation on the confirmation…?

    There is absolutely no reason to do this. This hasn’t been done for anybody before, and it’s a classic sign of Birthers moving the goal posts. “Yeah, Hawaii has said multiple times that Barack Obama was born there. However, they haven’t confirmed that they did the confirmation. Once they confirm that, we’ll believe them!” In the unlikely event that that does happen, you’ll probably be asking them to confirm the confirmation of the confirmation.

    Face it. You don’t like Obama. You know deep down that Obama is completely eligible for the Presidency and has proved it beyone a reasonable doubt. However, it’s just easier for you to make up elaborate conspiracy theories and say that he hasn’t proved that they didn’t happen, than it is to accept the very simple fact that Obama won fair and square, and your side lost. It’s easier for you to sit in your dilusions than it is to accept the simple fact that Voters preferred Barack Obama over John McCain.

  243. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 24, 2010 at 12:12 pm #

    nc1: The claim was made by Obama, correct?According to the following article Obama’s father was never part of the official airlift:“…Although the young Obama Sr. left for the University of Hawaii before the first formal student airlift, he did maintain his friendship with the Hagbergs when he returned to Kenya….”http://www.theeastafrican.co.ke/magazine/-/434746/525930/-/view/printVersion/-/i13vxrz/-/index.htmlI read another article claiming that Obama senior came to Hawaii by boat unlike other students who were part of the airlift.

    Aren’t you the one claiming that the quote was in the book? Which book and on which page? Now you’re saying its not

  244. avatar
    Black Lion June 24, 2010 at 12:15 pm #

    nc1 24. Jun, 2010 at 11:55 am nc1(Quote) #
    You ignored the points in my answer and proceeded to attack me personally. Why am I not surprised?

    If Obama’s claim of being born in the Kapiolani hospital were true, why is it that the hospital would not confirm it to journalists?

    You know the answer to this nc1, but you want to play games. As it has been explained to you on numerous occasions, there is this federal law known as HIPAA. This law PREVENTS hospitals from releasing any medical information. And this includes confirming a birth at a specific hospital. If you don’t believe me then call up a hospital and ask them to confirm a birth of someone you are not related to. See if they will. Privacy laws protect every American, even the President. Whether you like it or not that is the way the law is.

  245. avatar
    dunstvangeet June 24, 2010 at 12:15 pm #

    nc1:
    You ignored the points in my answer and proceeded to attack me personally. Why am I not surprised?If Obama’s claim of being born in the Kapiolani hospital were true, why is it that the hospital would not confirm it to journalists?

    It’s called HIPAA. Hospitals don’t talk to reporters and don’t release anything without a signed HIPAA document. Plus, the hospital probably just doesn’t care about it. Let me ask you. Call up the hospital you were born at. Say, “I’m a reporter trying to confirm a few facts. On , claims that he was born here. Can you confirm that?” See what response that you get. Track your claim down, and confirm that. I’d do it myself, but the hospital i was born at is now the American headquarters for Adidas.

  246. avatar
    nc1 June 24, 2010 at 12:16 pm #

    Black Lion: nc1 24. Jun, 2010 at 11:05 am nc1(Quote) #Should there be an investigation to find out who is telling the truth? Apparently Obama supprters are scared of the possibility that an investigation could prove them wrong.How dificult is it to check the hospital records in order to verify whether the official birthplace story is correct?We don’t have to rely on anyone’s word – the evidence is in the archives just needs to be presented to the public.Nothing needs to be presented to the public. That is not a Constitutional requirement. 69 million people were satisfied with the proof that was presented. No additional “proof” was required for any of the other 43 Presidents and there is no need for any to be presented for the 44th. Again the governor and the director of Health for HI (who unlike Adams is in the unique position to know and see the relevant documentation), have declared that “Barack Obama was born in HI”. For any rational person, that is all they would need. But the birthers have decided to add some additional requirements. They want the doctor, the hospital and other proof. And even then if that was presented then they would just use the ridiculous “Vattel” definition. No one needs to verify anything. I don’t seem to recall that anyone verified where Bush, Clinton, or Reagan was born. I don’t remember there being an issue. “Obama supporters” aren’t afraid of anything because unlike the birthers, they are not trying to rewrite the law and make things up. The word of the governor and the director of Health for HI, along with the COLB is enough for me and most Americans.

    Have you ever heard or read about any of the mentioned presidents being born in a foreign country? That is the difference between them and Obama.
    It is trivial to prove the official birth story. The fact that you and other Obama supporters ignore the simplest way of verifying it tells me that you are affraid of the possibility that he was born in a foreign country and is not eligible for the presidency.

  247. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 24, 2010 at 12:19 pm #

    dunstvangeet: It’s called HIPAA. Hospitals don’t talk to reporters and don’t release anything without a signed HIPAA document. Plus, the hospital probably just doesn’t care about it. Let me ask you. Call up the hospital you were born at. Say, “I’m a reporter trying to confirm a few facts. On , claims that he was born here. Can you confirm that?” See what response that you get. Track your claim down, and confirm that. I’d do it myself, but the hospital i was born at is now the American headquarters for Adidas.

    Ahh you a rubber based lifeform

  248. avatar
    nc1 June 24, 2010 at 12:25 pm #

    dunstvangeet: It’s called HIPAA. Hospitals don’t talk to reporters and don’t release anything without a signed HIPAA document. Plus, the hospital probably just doesn’t care about it. Let me ask you. Call up the hospital you were born at. Say, “I’m a reporter trying to confirm a few facts. On , claims that he was born here. Can you confirm that?” See what response that you get. Track your claim down, and confirm that. I’d do it myself, but the hospital i was born at is now the American headquarters for Adidas.

    Why am I not surprised that you are not criticizing Dr. Fukino when she ignores the Hawaii UIPA law.

    Kapiolani promptly removed the letter from White House from their web site when journalists started to ask about his birthplace. Why would Obama be hesitant to authorize the release of the original birth certificate if he told the truth in the first place.

    His behavior does not make sense – actually it does make sense if the official birthplace story was a lie.

  249. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 24, 2010 at 12:29 pm #

    nc1: Why am I not surprised that you are not criticizing Dr. Fukino when she ignores the Hawaii UIPA law. Kapiolani promptly removed the letter from White House from their web site when journalists started to ask about his birthplace. Why would Obama be hesitant to authorize the release of the original birth certificate if he told the truth in the first place. His behavior does not make sense – actually it does make sense if the official birthplace story was a lie.

    There is no hesitation. The COLB is a valid state issued form which the state has vouched for. The original won’t contain a different city or state. Do you have anything to prove he was born elsewhere besides speculation? Anything physical? You and I both know even if the long form was released you would still find some other reason to claim he wasn’t elligible.

  250. avatar
    nc1 June 24, 2010 at 12:31 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Aren’t you the one claiming that the quote was in the book? Which book and on which page? Now you’re saying its not

    I did not read his book – no intention to contribute financially to an usurper to the office.
    I read comments/reviews about it.

    The essence of my claim was correct – Obama made a claim that was not true.

    Since you read the book – is there any claim that Obama Sr. was part of the student airlift?

  251. avatar
    nc1 June 24, 2010 at 12:38 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): There is no hesitation. The COLB is a valid state issued form which the state has vouched for. The original won’t contain a different city or state. Do you have anything to prove he was born elsewhere besides speculation? Anything physical? You and I both know even if the long form was released you would still find some other reason to claim he wasn’t elligible.

    What part of the “there is no official confirmation that Hawaii DoH issued a COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007” do you not get?

    You assume that COLB image presented by Obama campain is based on the offical document. You have to rely on Obama campaign being honest.

    Rather than rely on a politician’s word, I would prefer to verify his claim. In this case the verification is trivial.

  252. avatar
    Black Lion June 24, 2010 at 12:42 pm #

    nc1: Have you ever heard or read about any of the mentioned presidents being born in a foreign country? That is the difference between them and Obama.It is trivial to prove the official birth story. The fact that you and other Obama supporters ignore the simplest way of verifying it tells me that you are affraid of the possibility that he was born in a foreign country and is not eligible for the presidency.

    But it doesn’t matter what you “heard”. I am sure you “heard” that some people think that there are UFO’s and we have been visited by aliens. But no one would seriously give any credence to those stories. In the same vein we don’t give any credence to stories that people have “heard”. The better question should be has there been any legally admissible evidence presented that would suggest birth somewhere other than the state of HI in the USA? No there hasn’t. Until there is real evidence then most rational people tend to believe what makes the most sense. Which in this case is that the President, like Dr. Fukino and the state of HI has stipulated, was born in HI. Those are the facts. No amount of supposition or innuendo is going to change them. The President was born in HI.

  253. avatar
    sfjeff June 24, 2010 at 12:44 pm #

    For our readers enjoyment, I provide a recap of NC1’s claim that Obama is a habitual liar:

    NC1 “Obama has been proven a habitual liar… How many lies did he tell in his “autobiography”?

    NC1 “The book claimed that JFK was involved in bringing Obama’s father to US. The truth is different, Obama’s father arrived to Hawaii two years prior to Kennedy’s involvement in that program.”

    Scientist “That claim was not made in the book. but in a speech. And there is no evidence it was a lie as opposed to an error. I will be charitable and accept that when you said it was in the book, you made an error rather than told a lie…it was actually one year (September 1959 vs September 1960). Again, I will be charitable and accept that when you said it was 2 years, you made an error rather than told a lie.

    And NC1’s reply?

    “The claim was made by Obama, correct?”

    Note that NC1 made two claims- that Obama lied in his autobiography, and that he lied about JFK being involved with bringing his father to Hawaii- stating it was Obama Sr. arrived two year prior to Kennedy’s involvement. When Scientist very charitably pointed out NC1’s own factual errors- noting the difference between an error and a lie, NC1 then changed the subject.

    NC1 refused to continue the natural discussion of the difference between an error and a lie. Was Obama lying or was there an error? Was NC1 lying or was there an error? This could be an interesting discussion- the difference between a material and willful lie and an error regarding immaterial facts regarding family history.

    In my opinion, if that is the best example NC1 can come up with for a lie’ in President Obama’s biography, then I would give it higher marks for honesty than most autobiographies.

    But Obama haters like to paint Obama in broad slanders- that he is habitual liar, but when asked to provide examples they fumble around and only come up with trivial- and immaterial inconsistancies. So are they lying when they call him a habitual liar, or are they merely stating their firm but unsubstantiated conviction?

  254. avatar
    bob June 24, 2010 at 12:47 pm #

    nc1: Have you ever heard or read about any of the mentioned presidents being born in a foreign country? That is the difference between them and Obama.

    I read an article on the Internet that suggested George W. Bush was born in Canada while the family was there on business, and then drove the baby George back to the United States.

  255. avatar
    Black Lion June 24, 2010 at 12:49 pm #

    nc1: Have you ever heard or read about any of the mentioned presidents being born in a foreign country? That is the difference between them and Obama.It is trivial to prove the official birth story. The fact that you and other Obama supporters ignore the simplest way of verifying it tells me that you are affraid of the possibility that he was born in a foreign country and is not eligible for the presidency.

    Additionally no one though that Obama was born anywhere other than HI until one of the early birthers, I believe it was Jerome Corsi made that dubious claim. So if we started a rumor that Sarah Palin, the former half term governor that quit, was born in Canada and not Alaska. Spread rumors and made up fake Canadian BC’s showing she was born in Canada. You would call on her to release her COLB or BC that would prove that she was born in Alaska? We all know you are going to say yes but the fact that no one has any issue with any of the previous 43 Presidental birthplaces, especially when most of them were born at home and there was no proof that they were born in the US, says differently.

  256. avatar
    misha June 24, 2010 at 12:49 pm #

    nc1: Have you ever heard or read about any of the mentioned presidents being born in a foreign country? That is the difference between them and Obama

    -Candidate (1964) Barry Goldwater (R) was born outside the United States, in the Arizona Territory, before Arizona was a state).
    -Candidate (1968) George Romney (R) was born in Mexico to American parents.
    -Candidate (1980) Lowell Weicker (R) was born in Paris, France to US citizens, though his mother was born in India and her father was a British General.
    -Candidate (1916) Charles Evan Hughes (R) was born in the United States to an American mother and a father who was a citizen of the UK at the time of Hughes’ birth.

  257. avatar
    bob June 24, 2010 at 12:51 pm #

    nc1: What part of the “there is no official confirmation that Hawaii DoH issued a COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007‘ do you not get? You assume that COLB image presented by Obama campain is based on the offical document. You have to rely on Obama campaign being honest.Rather than rely on a politician’s word, I would prefer to verify his claim. In this case the verification is trivial.

    There’s the seal and signature. That’s how you know it was issued.

    But I don’t need the COLB to prove Obama was born in Hawaii. The State of Hawaii’s a href=”http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/obama.html”>index data says he was born in Hawaii.

    Your demand for even more proof, especially in the absence of any contradictory evidence, is simply irrational.

  258. avatar
    Scientist June 24, 2010 at 12:53 pm #

    nc1: I did not read his book

    Yet you claim there are lies in his autobiography. Either back up your claim or retract it.

    nc1: Have you ever heard or read about any of the mentioned presidents being born in a foreign country?

    Absolutely. I have heard that Bush II was born in Saudi Arabia. He certainly served their interests throughout his Presidency. Oil prices went up in a straight line almost from the day Bush took office. Who did that help? (Hint:Not working Americans).
    There is also good reason to believe that “Dutch” Reagan was born in Holland. Certainly that may have been what his Hollywood friends were trying to say. Now that those charges are in the public domain, they should be made to show their long form birth certificates, passports, social security records, kindergarten records, etc.

    Tim Adams says that Obama is eligible and those who say otherwise are racists or political hacks. Which one are you?

  259. avatar
    Scientist June 24, 2010 at 1:00 pm #

    Black Lion: So if we started a rumor that Sarah Palin, the former half term governor that quit, was born in Canada and not Alaska.

    She admitted to an audience in Calgary that her family received their medical care in Canada. What is obstetrics but medical care? The place she was supposedly born is <50 miles from the border. Which is more likely:
    1. Ann Dunham travels for at least 3 days, over 10,000 miles at great cost, to a 3rd world country in the midst of a struggle for independence.
    2. Mama Palin drives 1 hour to a peaceful, developed country with excellent care, where the language and culture are familiar. She needs no documents other than a driver's license to cross in either direction and no entry and exit records are kept.

    It's a no-brainer folks.

  260. avatar
    Scientist June 24, 2010 at 1:07 pm #

    nc1: The fact that you and other Obama supporters ignore the simplest way of verifying it tells me that you are affraid of the possibility that he was born in a foreign country and is not eligible for the presidency.

    I would happily bet that no court would declare the child of a US citizen born overseas ineligible. Don’t waste your breath arguing, I am only interested in cash. If you are unwilling to put money on your opinions, well, then we know what they are worth.

  261. avatar
    sfjeff June 24, 2010 at 1:11 pm #

    “I did not read his book – no intention to contribute financially to an usurper to the office.
    I read comments/reviews about it.”

    Even better- you made the claim that Obama was a habitual liar, based upon the supposed lies in his autobiography- but you never even read the autobiography? So you have no actual first hand experience of his supposed lies?

    “The essence of my claim was correct – Obama made a claim that was not true.”

    As did you. Are you then also a habitual liar?

    Or perhaps we can acknowledge there is a difference between making a claim that is later proven not to be true, and knowingly lying?

    I say again, if this is the best ‘lie’ that you can come up with, then Obama must be just about the most honest President we have ever had.

  262. avatar
    sfjeff June 24, 2010 at 1:16 pm #

    “His behavior does not make sense”

    It doesn’t make sense to you, but it makes perfect sense to me. President Obama is ignoring you.

    He has actual real issues to deal with.

  263. avatar
    Majority Will June 24, 2010 at 1:57 pm #

    misha:
    -Candidate (1964) Barry Goldwater (R) was born outside the United States, in the Arizona Territory, before Arizona was a state).
    -Candidate (1968) George Romney (R) was born in Mexico to American parents.
    -Candidate (1980) Lowell Weicker (R) was born in Paris, France to US citizens, though his mother was born in India and her father was a British General.
    -Candidate (1916) Charles Evan Hughes (R) was born in the United States to an American mother and a father who was a citizen of the UK at the time of Hughes’ birth.

    If you confuse her with facts, she’s only going to dart down another rabbit hole.

    Birferstan has an infinite number of rabbit holes. Many of them are exactly the same holes only different.

    “Unlike in Alice in Wonderland, simply saying something is so does not make it so.”
    – U.S. District Court Judge Clay Land

  264. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 24, 2010 at 2:03 pm #

    nc1: I did not read his book – no intention to contribute financially to an usurper to the office.I read comments/reviews about it.The essence of my claim was correct – Obama made a claim that was not true.Since you read the book – is there any claim that Obama Sr. was part of the student airlift?

    Ah so in otherwords you just made up a claim based on what you read from a third party source instead of going to the source. You’re the one making the claim that Obama made a claim that was not true. I assumed that you actually went to the source and had real knowledge instead of bsing again.

  265. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 24, 2010 at 2:05 pm #

    nc1: What part of the “there is no official confirmation that Hawaii DoH issued a COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007‘ do you not get? You assume that COLB image presented by Obama campain is based on the offical document. You have to rely on Obama campaign being honest.Rather than rely on a politician’s word, I would prefer to verify his claim. In this case the verification is trivial.

    No I rely on state officials who vouched for it. If the COLB was fraudulent the Republican Governor of Hawaii as well as the Republican Department of Health would have said something to contradict it. Again you rely on crazy whims that come out of thin air to make your claims instead of on hard physical evidence

  266. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 24, 2010 at 2:08 pm #

    sfjeff: For our readers enjoyment, I provide a recap of NC1’s claim that Obama is a habitual liar:NC1 “Obama has been proven a habitual liar… How many lies did he tell in his “autobiography”?NC1 “The book claimed that JFK was involved in bringing Obama’s father to US. The truth is different, Obama’s father arrived to Hawaii two years prior to Kennedy’s involvement in that program.”Scientist “That claim was not made in the book. but in a speech. And there is no evidence it was a lie as opposed to an error. I will be charitable and accept that when you said it was in the book, you made an error rather than told a lie…it was actually one year (September 1959 vs September 1960). Again, I will be charitable and accept that when you said it was 2 years, you made an error rather than told a lie.And NC1’s reply?“The claim was made by Obama, correct?”Note that NC1 made two claims- that Obama lied in his autobiography, and that he lied about JFK being involved with bringing his father to Hawaii- stating it was Obama Sr. arrived two year prior to Kennedy’s involvement. When Scientist very charitably pointed out NC1’s own factual errors- noting the difference between an error and a lie, NC1 then changed the subject. NC1 refused to continue the natural discussion of the difference between an error and a lie. Was Obama lying or was there an error? Was NC1 lying or was there an error? This could be an interesting discussion- the difference between a material and willful lie and an error regarding immaterial facts regarding family history. In my opinion, if that is the best example NC1 can come up with for a lie’ in President Obama’s biography, then I would give it higher marks for honesty than most autobiographies. But Obama haters like to paint Obama in broad slanders- that he is habitual liar, but when asked to provide examples they fumble around and only come up with trivial- and immaterial inconsistancies. So are they lying when they call him a habitual liar, or are they merely stating their firm but unsubstantiated conviction?

    Not just that Jeff but NC just admitted to me he never read either of Obama’s books and couldn’t tell me which book or page it came from. He said he heard the claim somewhere. So once again hearsay and innuendo is all he has

  267. avatar
    misha June 24, 2010 at 2:13 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): He said he heard the claim somewhere. So once again hearsay and innuendo is all he has

    And that is the sum total of the Denialists’ claims.

  268. avatar
    G June 24, 2010 at 3:10 pm #

    Black Lion: I think we are seeing a lot of the hard core birthers coming over here, changing their names, and pretending that they are some sort of new birther that have been swayed by the same birther false facts and are “questioning” the “anti birthers’.What this tells us is that the birthers are upset that Doc’s site is still here debunking their nonsense and it drives them crazy.I guess it must get kind of boring to post the same stuff over at the moderated sites where dissent is prohibited.They come here thinking that they can post their nonsense and no one will challenge them on it.They will eventually get bored and upset and go running back to their “safe sites”….

    I think that is exactly what is happening in most of these cases.

  269. avatar
    G June 24, 2010 at 3:13 pm #

    nc1: Why does he avoid questions about CT based SSN used by Obama?

    Because such nonsensical questions are to inane to merit a response at all and a waste of time.

  270. avatar
    G June 24, 2010 at 3:24 pm #

    nc1: Have you ever heard or read about any of the mentioned presidents being born in a foreign country? That is the difference between them and Obama.
    It is trivial to prove the official birth story. The fact that you and other Obama supporters ignore the simplest way of verifying it tells me that you are affraid of the possibility that he was born in a foreign country and is not eligible for the presidency.

    NC1, you just seem to repeat the same nonsense over and over again, regardless of how many times others have explained it to you and corrected you on your garbage and how sad you are that you have to pretend otherwise or tell yourself that “others are afraid” instead of dealing with the truth that you are just plain crazy.

    The only actual credible evidence that exists all point to one and only one conclusion – born in Honolulu, HI. Such evidence includes: Ithe HI COLB, the statements from HI officials corroborating it & the HI newspaper birth announcements.

    HI is not a foreign country. Therefore, the only reasonable conclusion, based on existing evidence, is born in Honolulu, HI, which means NBC.

    To come to any other conclusion, you have to make up evidence or elaborate fanciful stories to support your preconceived, hate-based notions.

  271. avatar
    Scientist June 24, 2010 at 4:39 pm #

    nc1: Should there be an investigation to find out who is telling the truth?

    An investigation by whom? The FBI? The act you are alleging (on the basis of no evidence), fraudulently registering a birth, dates back 49 years and the alleged perpetrators are all dead. So the FBI is not going to investigate. Congress? They have broad investigative powers, but no member of either party is interested. Somehow, they seem to feel that the issues the average person cares about-you know, trivial stuff like wars, jobs, the financial system, energy policy- are more important than where someone was born 49 years ago, someone who may very well be eligible for their office regardless of where they were born (Tim Adams says so and I agree).

    And suppose they decided to investigate? They could subpoena birth records and Hawaii could fight the subpoena on the grounds of full faith and credit and state’s rights. Many conservatives would take Hawaii’s side in such a fight. If they got the records in the end (it could easily take beyond Obama’s term) there would be 2 outcomes:
    1. The birth was reported by the hospital. You would have wasted everbody’s time.
    2. The birth was unattended and reported by a relative. All the eyewitnesses are dead and that’s where things would end. You would have wasted everbody’s time.

    Now you see why no one cares to investigate. By the way, it’s not Obama or Obama supporters who are preventing such an investigation. No, it is common sense and the practical difficulties of investigating any event in the distant past.

  272. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 24, 2010 at 4:54 pm #

    Scientist: An investigation by whom? The FBI? The act you are alleging (on the basis of no evidence), fraudulently registering a birth, dates back 49 years and the alleged perpetrators are all dead. So the FBI is not going to investigate. Congress? They have broad investigative powers, but no member of either party is interested. Somehow, they seem to feel that the issues the average person cares about-you know, trivial stuff like wars, jobs, the financial system, energy policy- are more important than where someone was born 49 years ago, someone who may very well be eligible for their office regardless of where they were born (Tim Adams says so and I agree). And suppose they decided to investigate? They could subpoena birth records and Hawaii could fight the subpoena on the grounds of full faith and credit and state’s rights. Many conservatives would take Hawaii’s side in such a fight. If they got the records in the end (it could easily take beyond Obama’s term) there would be 2 outcomes:1. The birth was reported by the hospital. You would have wasted everbody’s time.2. The birth was unattended and reported by a relative. All the eyewitnesses are dead and that’s where things would end. You would have wasted everbody’s time.Now you see why no one cares to investigate. By the way, it’s not Obama or Obama supporters who are preventing such an investigation. No, it is common sense and the practical difficulties of investigating any event in the distant past.

    All good questions Scientist. I would like to know who NC1 would like to handle the investigation. Since most birthers seem to think that there is a mass conspiracy all the way up to the federal level that would mean any investigation by law enforcement or the courts and congress would be corrupt in their eyes. So who would investigate?

  273. avatar
    dunstvangeet June 24, 2010 at 5:41 pm #

    Plus, the investigation would be…

    Obama turns over the exact same birth certificate that he put out on the web, and allowed a fact-checking news agency to photograph to this “investigation”. The investigation would be forced to take this exact same document, and declare that Obama was born in Hawaii!

    Do we really need to spend millions of dollars doing that, when we already know the outcome?

  274. avatar
    Greg June 24, 2010 at 5:50 pm #

    nc1: Have you ever heard or read about any of the mentioned presidents being born in a foreign country?

    Jimmy Carter was the first President to be born in a hospital. The rest claim to have been born in America, but since they were born at home (or in an apartment above a factory in the case of Reagan), how can we rule out the possibility of a lying mother or grandmother falsifying the records?

    Shouldn’t we make sure? In fact, shouldn’t we just operate on the assumption that since they cannot prove their birth with the same information that a current day little leaguer has to provide that they were illegitimate. Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Bush Jr., and Obama, the only legitimate presidents!

  275. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 24, 2010 at 6:01 pm #

    nc1: Rather than rely on a politician’s word, I would prefer to verify his claim. In this case the verification is trivial.

    Yes. It is trivial. One little click: http://hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2009/09-063.pdf

  276. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 24, 2010 at 6:10 pm #

    nc1: I did not read his book – no intention to contribute financially to an usurper to the office.

    Do what I do: buy a used copy to avoid paying royalties to a cause deemed objectionable. One can order used books online from many sources including Barnes & Noble (bn.com).

    I read The Audacity of Hope, but I didn’t like Dreams from My Father, and I never finished it. You won’t see me commenting on what I haven’t read (I have a copy that I can reference if needed).

  277. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 24, 2010 at 6:13 pm #

    nc1: Kapiolani promptly removed the letter from White House from their web site when journalists started to ask about his birthplace.

    It’s still there in a PDF on the site. I checked it just this week and left a link in a comment here.

  278. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 24, 2010 at 6:21 pm #

    nc1: I read another article claiming that Obama senior came to Hawaii by boat unlike other students who were part of the airlift.

    Was it true, or do you think in terms like that?

  279. avatar
    sfjeff June 24, 2010 at 7:13 pm #

    “Do what I do: buy a used copy to avoid paying royalties to a cause deemed objectionable.”

    I did even better- i read the used copy my wife bought- and I didn’t pay her a dime!

    Of course if NC1 was actually interested in reading it, he could have availed himself of that fine socialist institution called the Public Library, and avoided paying anything other than late penalties. (“you have no proof that I returned that book late- where are the witnesses? All you have is this time stamp and we know those can be falsified…”)

  280. avatar
    misha June 24, 2010 at 7:32 pm #

    sfjeff:Of course if NC1 was actually interested in reading it, he could have availed himself of that fine socialist institution called the Public Library

    Actually, the public library is a communist institution. Collective ownership of books and other media, free of charge to the public, even those who do not pay taxes like illegals and tourists.

    And Social Security is pure socialism. Roosevelt got the idea from von Bismarck, who got it from Karl Marx.

  281. avatar
    Keith June 24, 2010 at 8:15 pm #

    nc1:
    Tim Addams said that he was willing to testify in court that there is no long form birth certificate confirming Kapiolani hospital birth.

    So what if he is willing? On what basis will any court accept that testimony? In what capacity is he a subject matter expert on the contents of the Hawai’ian Vital Events repository?

  282. avatar
    Keith June 24, 2010 at 8:25 pm #

    dunstvangeetSo, what you’re saying is that the Hawaii Elections Department broke the law and called up the Hospitals, which would not have kept records on file for 50 years, to ask them whether or not they had a record on file.And the hospital broke the law by saying that they didn’t?Gee, that seems a little farfetched.

    But see that is the beauty of what Adams is saying!

    IF he did call up the hospitals, AND IF the hospitals did say they didn’t any such records, THEN it he is telling the truth. FURTHERMORE, IF he didn’t call up the hospitals, THEN he is still telling the truth.

    The hospital wouldn’t have kept the records for 50 years, certainly not in a format or location that the file could be conjured up for an unverifiable voice claiming to be a worker from an agency that has no business with the information. So whether or not they ever had them, it is unimaginable that they would still have them.

    So Adams can truthfully claim that Hawai’ian hospitals don’t have the records without fear of contradiction.

  283. avatar
    Keith June 24, 2010 at 8:36 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I’m pretty sure that Adams never said anything about hospitals. It was not in his first statement, and he has been backpedaling ever since, not adding details. Birthers when challenged often make up the “facts”. When confronted with the fact that the Elections Division had no access to birth certificate information, they speculated that they “could have” called hospitals (what for?), and in the second generation that speculation became “fact”. We’ve seen this pattern over and over again.

    And I got taken in, too. My bad.

  284. avatar
    Majority Will June 24, 2010 at 9:05 pm #

    Since most birthers seem to think that there is a mass conspiracy all the way up to the federal level that would mean any investigation by law enforcement or the courts and congress would be corrupt in their eyes. So who would investigate?

    You get a choice. Inspector Gadget or Clouseau?

  285. avatar
    Keith June 24, 2010 at 9:56 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Do what I do: buy a used copy to avoid paying royalties to a cause deemed objectionable. One can order used books online from many sources including Barnes & Noble (bn.com).I read The Audacity of Hope, but I didn’t like Dreams from My Father, and I never finished it. You won’t see me commenting on what I haven’t read (I have a copy that I can reference if needed).

    Or how about one of those quaint old institutions called “Libraries”. I heard from a friend of a friend (yeah I know, “hearsay” evidence, but that seems to be the new “eyewitness testimony” these days) that they even let you take books home over night maybe even for a whole two weeks!

  286. avatar
    Keith June 24, 2010 at 10:01 pm #

    OK, too much of a hurry to post before seeing others already discussing my contribution before I even made it.

    Albert Einstein would be proud of me. (Actually in the photo of him on my wall he’s got that sort of bemused look like he’s saying “you did it again dummy; fail”.

    Doh!

  287. avatar
    nc1 June 25, 2010 at 4:45 am #

    bob: There’s the seal and signature. That’s how you know it was issued.But I don’t need the COLB to prove Obama was born in Hawaii. The State of Hawaii’s a href=”http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/obama.html”>index data says he was born in Hawaii.Your demand for even more proof, especially in the absence of any contradictory evidence, is simply irrational.

    How do you know that a seal and a signature are legitimate and not a forgery? A simple question to DoH is being ignored. Evidence supporting the claim of Hawai birth is most likely a birth certificate registering unattended birth. That is why we have not seen it so far.

  288. avatar
    nc1 June 25, 2010 at 5:09 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Was it true, or do you think in terms like that?

    I’ve read too many articles about Obama. It is hard to keep up with all the claims/stories.

    If you search few posts above I put a link to a story from a newspaper claiming that Obama Sr. arrived before the airlift. He did not fly in with other students.

    Few months ago I received a link from Obama supporters about a story on Obama Sr and his days in Hawaii. I did not save the link but I am sure it is possible to find it. The article explicitly mentioned that Obama Sr. arrived to Hawaii by boat.

    It could be the article from journalist Shurei Hirozawa in the Honolulu Star Bulletin on Sept. 18, 1959. I could not find the original article, I don’t have much time for search today.

  289. avatar
    SluggoJD June 25, 2010 at 5:16 am #

    nc1:
    How do you know that a seal and a signature are legitimate and not a forgery?A simple question to DoH is being ignored. Evidence supporting the claim of Hawai birth is most likely a birth certificate registering unattended birth.That is why we have not seen it so far.

    And you never will, because your life is so miserably pathetic, that President Obama feels sorry for you, and wants you to have something to whine about.

    So go ahead. Whine your life away!

  290. avatar
    nc1 June 25, 2010 at 5:22 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Yes. It is trivial. One little click: http://hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2009/09-063.pdf

    Her statement could have been based on a birth registration by a relative. We don’t know – she refuses to answer any follow up questions.

    My statement still stands – Hawaii DoH never confirmed that COLB was issued to Obama on June 6, 2007.

  291. avatar
    nc1 June 25, 2010 at 5:26 am #

    SluggoJD: And you never will, because your life is so miserably pathetic, that President Obama feels sorry for you, and wants you to have something to whine about.So go ahead. Whine your life away!

    Enjoy reading about Obama lies.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/29/AR2008032902031.html?hpid%3Dtopnews&sub=AR

    If reading is not your cup of tea enjoy the video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdYByptC8mY

  292. avatar
    Bovril June 25, 2010 at 6:15 am #

    The World (excluding Birferstan……………The proof provided is inherentkly sufficient and multiply supported

    NC1……..Lies, Lies, they’re all damn lies, there is no truth but the Pest and Fail and my profit/prophet is Joseph Farrah

  293. avatar
    Expelliarmus June 25, 2010 at 6:20 am #

    nc1: Her statement could have been based on a birth registration by a relative.

    It doesn’t matter. If there had been such a registration — it WOULD STILL BE A REGISTRATION! It would still establish that Obama was BORN IN HAWAII.

    You can go round and round with this but the OFFICIAL RECORD is dispositive. You don’t get to go behind it to look at the form of the paperwork to challenge it. It doesn’t matter if it was a home birth or a hospital birth, it doesn’t matter what mechanism led to the recording of the birth.

    The point is that the DOH is the agency that is in charge of maintaining records of births in Hawaii.

  294. avatar
    Expelliarmus June 25, 2010 at 6:28 am #

    nc1: The article explicitly mentioned that Obama Sr. arrived to Hawaii by boat.

    You know, one problem with birthers is that you guys are all too ignorant to look at a map.

    First there was the born-in-Mombasa story, which is patently ridiculous because, among other reason, Mombasa is hundreds of miles away from the village where Obama’s grandmother lived.

    Now you are hypothesizing a ship from Kenya to Hawaii because you probable don’t have a clue as to what that voyage would entail.

    Check this book:
    http://www.amazon.com/Airlift-America-Kennedy-African-Students/dp/0312570759

    The AIRLIFT involved multiple flights from 1959-1963. Roughly 800 African students came to study in the US, at different universities, in different locations, on different planes. There wasn’t one flight and Obama Sr. came sooner or later. There were many flights.

  295. avatar
    misha June 25, 2010 at 7:47 am #

    nc1: Enjoy reading about Obama lies.

    OK, let’s try these: “The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa .”

    How about: God told me to invade Iraq.

    Reagan: “Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do.”

    During a 1983 Congressional Medal of Honor ceremony Reagan told a story about military heroism, that New York Daily News columnist Lars-Erik Nelson wrote never happened. Nelson had checked the citations on all 434 Congressional Medals of Honor awarded during WWII. The scene Reagan described did appear, however, in the 1944 film “A Wing and a Prayer.”

    Attorney General Ed Meese: “I don’t know of any authoritative figures that there are hungry children … people go to soup kitchens because the food is free and that’s easier than paying for it.”

    Don’t forget Iran-Contra—the secret and illegal selling of weapons to our sworn enemy, Iran, to then fund the Contras—was both a constitutional disaster and a foreign policy blunder about which we were asked to believe Reagan knew nothing.

  296. avatar
    misha June 25, 2010 at 7:59 am #

    nc1: My statement still stands – Hawaii DoH never confirmed that COLB was issued to Obama on June 6, 2007.

    Who cares? When you get your JD, with a concentration in Constitutional law, I’ll listen.

  297. avatar
    misha June 25, 2010 at 8:03 am #

    nc1: Few months ago I received a link from Obama supporters about a story on Obama Sr and his days in Hawaii. I did not save the link but I am sure it is possible to find it. The article explicitly mentioned that Obama Sr. arrived to Hawaii by boat.It could be the article from journalist Shurei Hirozawa in the Honolulu Star Bulletin on Sept. 18, 1959.

    Do you have any idea that trip by ship would be over 11,000 miles? Look at a map, and get back to me.

  298. avatar
    Bob Ross June 25, 2010 at 8:07 am #

    nc1:
    I’ve read too many articles about Obama. It is hard to keep up with all the claims/stories.If you search few posts above I put a link to a story from a newspaper claiming that Obama Sr. arrived before the airlift. He did not fly in with other students.Few months ago I received a link from Obama supporters about a story on Obama Sr and his days in Hawaii.I did not save the link but I am sure it is possible to find it.The article explicitly mentioned that Obama Sr. arrived to Hawaii by boat.It could be the article from journalist Shurei Hirozawa in the Honolulu Star Bulletin on Sept. 18, 1959.I could not find the original article, I don’t have much time for search today.

    you still havent told us where you got the claim that Obama said that in his book let alone which book chapter and page it was on. Like James you repeat things you hear without checking the veracity of the stories

  299. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 25, 2010 at 8:13 am #

    nc1: The article explicitly mentioned that Obama Sr. arrived to Hawaii by boat.

    Was it true, or do you think in terms like that?

    I repeat the question because you seem to think that so long as someone says something, whether you have good reason to believe that it is true or not, it’s appropriate for you to use in an argument. So I am asking you whether what you “repeated” was true or not, or whether you even care. From your response, you don’t seem to care.

    I’m not challenging whether you can find a reference to back up your comment that Obama Sr. arrived by boat. You can if you take the time. My challenge is whether it is true.

    Here are references saying Obama Sr. arrived by boat:

    http://socialismisnottheanswer.wordpress.com/2010/01/06/who%E2%80%99s-your-daddy-who%E2%80%99s-your-mama/
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2278969/posts?q=1&amp;;page=201

    Here’s a photo!

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_TahXQ2WiF0s/SRCKlCKNEKI/AAAAAAAAHPw/wNLIBHDxwrs/s400/11+Barack+Obama+Family+Photos.jpg

    I suspect the rumor that he arrived by boat was generated by the photo.

  300. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 25, 2010 at 8:41 am #

    Bob Ross (@ nc1): you still haven’t told us where you got the claim that Obama said that in his book let alone which book chapter and page it was on,

    nc1 just makes stuff up or repeats rumors as facts. We all know that. I suggest that we deal with that and move on.

  301. avatar
    Scientist June 25, 2010 at 9:04 am #

    Let’s not lose the forest for the trees here. nc1 said that Obama’s autobiography is full of lies. I asked her to name one. She cited something that wasn’t even in the autobiography (which she has admitted she has not read). Moreover, let’s assume the statement made in the Selma speech was incorrect. Was it a lie? A lie is a statement that the speaker KNOWS to be untrue. But there is no evidence that Obama knew the statement was untrue, rather than that he simply believed something that his father told him.

    So, we are still waiting for a lie in Obama’s autobiography. The ball is in nc1’s court.

  302. avatar
    BatGuano June 25, 2010 at 10:27 am #

    nc1:
    …she refuses to answer any follow up questions.My statement still stands – Hawaii DoH never confirmed that COLB was issued to Obama on June 6, 2007.

    talk about not being able to see the forrest through the trees. the hawaiian DOH said he was born in hawaii. they would have sent obama a COLB upon request and payment. you think it was just more convenient to forge the document from scratch ?

  303. avatar
    nc1 June 25, 2010 at 10:39 am #

    Expelliarmus: You know, one problem with birthers is that you guys are all too ignorant to look at a map.First there was the born-in-Mombasa story, which is patently ridiculous because, among other reason, Mombasa is hundreds of miles away from the village where Obama’s grandmother lived. Now you are hypothesizing a ship from Kenya to Hawaii because you probable don’t have a clue as to what that voyage would entail. Check this book:http://www.amazon.com/Airlift-America-Kennedy-African-Students/dp/0312570759The AIRLIFT involved multiple flights from 1959-1963. Roughly 800 African students came to study in the US, at different universities, in different locations, on different planes. There wasn’t one flight and Obama Sr. came sooner or later. There were many flights.

    This is the list of students on the flight from Kenya to Hawaii in September 1959.
    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=125349

    Obama Sr is not there. At that time he was already in Honolulu:

    “The first article documenting Barack Obama Sr.’s presence in Hawaii was by journalist Shurei Hirozawa in the Honolulu Star Bulletin on Sept. 18, 1959, only nine days after the Jackie Robinson airlift.
    The article suggested Barack Obama Sr., then fully settled in Hawaii and enrolled at the university, had used personal savings to pay his travel expenses from Kenya to Hawaii and tuition costs at the university…”
    .
    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=125351

  304. avatar
    nc1 June 25, 2010 at 10:51 am #

    Scientist: Let’s not lose the forest for the trees here. nc1 said that Obama’s autobiography is full of lies. I asked her to name one. She cited something that wasn’t even in the autobiography (which she has admitted she has not read). Moreover, let’s assume the statement made in the Selma speech was incorrect. Was it a lie? A lie is a statement that the speaker KNOWS to be untrue. But there is no evidence that Obama knew the statement was untrue, rather than that he simply believed something that his father told him.So, we are still waiting for a lie in Obama’s autobiography. The ball is in nc1′s court.

    He claimed in his book that an article in the Life magazine transformed his life. It was a story about a black man wanting to peel off his skin . The trouble is, nobody could find that article. Obama switched story and said that perhaps it was an article in the Ebony magazine.
    People checked again and found out that the Ebony magazine never published such a story.

    When did Selma march happen? When was Obama Jr born? It is not difficult to see through this lie.

  305. avatar
    nc1 June 25, 2010 at 11:07 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: It could be the article from journalist Shurei Hirozawa in the Honolulu Star Bulletin on Sept. 18, 1959.
    Was it true, or do you think in terms like that?

    I repeat the question because you seem to think that so long as someone says something, whether you have good reason to believe that it is true or not, it’s appropriate for you to use in an argument. So I am asking you whether what you “repeated” was true or not, or whether you even care. From your response, you don’t seem to care.

    I’m not challenging whether you can find a reference to back up your comment that Obama Sr. arrived by boat. You can if you take the time. My challenge is whether it is true.

    Here are references saying Obama Sr. arrived by boat:

    http://socialismisnottheanswer.wordpress.com/2010/01/06/who%E2%80%99s-your-daddy-who%E2%80%99s-your-mama/
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2278969/posts?q=1&amp;;page=201

    Here’s a photo!

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_TahXQ2WiF0s/SRCKlCKNEKI/AAAAAAAAHPw/wNLIBHDxwrs/s400/11+Barack+Obama+Family+Photos.jpg

    I suspect the rumor that he arrived by boat was generated by the photo

    No I did not use the sources described in your post when I read about the arrival by boat story. It was a detailed newspaper article about Obama Sr. Try to find Hirozawa’s article from Honolulu Star Bulletin on Sept. 18, 1959.

  306. avatar
    nc1 June 25, 2010 at 11:12 am #

    BatGuano: talk about not being able to see the forrest through the trees. the hawaiian DOH said he was born in hawaii. they would have sent obama a COLB upon request and payment. you think it was just more convenient to forge the document from scratch ?

    Since Obama paid for COLB (as you claimed) there must be a record for money received by the government agency. Why is it that DoH refused to provide this information when asked about it. Information about people paying for government service should be in the public domain. What is there to hide?

  307. avatar
    bob June 25, 2010 at 11:20 am #

    nc1: How do you know that a seal and a signature are legitimate and not a forgery? A simple question to DoH is being ignored. Evidence supporting the claim of Hawai birth is most likely a birth certificate registering unattended birth. That is why we have not seen it so far.

    1. There’s no evidence that it is a forgery. Speculation is not evidence.

    2. The State of Hawaii says Obama was born in Hawaii. Why forge when a valid COLB is available?

    3. There is no evidence supporting registering an unattended birth. Assuming there was: so? Still born in Hawaii, and no contrary competent evidence indicating otherwise.

  308. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 25, 2010 at 11:30 am #

    nc1: Since Obama paid for COLB (as you claimed) there must be a record for money received by the government agency. Why is it that DoH refused to provide this information when asked about it. Information about people paying for government service should be in the public domain. What is there to hide?

    Its none of your business. Do you want a carbon copy of the receipt as well? Do you want the form he filled out?

  309. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 25, 2010 at 11:31 am #

    nc1: He claimed in his book that an article in the Life magazine transformed his life. It was a story about a black man wanting to peel off his skin . The trouble is, nobody could find that article. Obama switched story and said that perhaps it was an article in the Ebony magazine.People checked again and found out that the Ebony magazine never published such a story.When did Selma march happen? When was Obama Jr born? It is not difficult to see through this lie.

    Oh here you go again. What page in which of his books is this story on? What is the source for your claim?

  310. avatar
    bob June 25, 2010 at 11:35 am #

    nc1: Why is it that DoH refused to provide this information when asked about it. Information about people paying for government service should be in the public domain.

    Because it isn’t in the public domain. Go to your local DMV and ask them for the receipt for your neighbor’s latest vehicle registration; they won’t give it to you.

    The seal and signature is proof that it was issued. You have provided no competent evidence that the COLB is fake, nor a motive as to why someone would forge something that is readily available.

    That you demand more proof than any court would is your problem, not Obama’s.

  311. avatar
    BatGuano June 25, 2010 at 11:36 am #

    nc1:
    Since Obama paid for COLB (as you claimed) there must be a record for money received by the government agency

    are you afraid of forgery or that obama stiffed the state of hawaii for the 12 bucks ?

  312. avatar
    sfjeff June 25, 2010 at 1:00 pm #

    NC1-

    Why do you keep dodging the simple question- did you lie when you said Obama had lied in his autobiography about his father’s airlift- or were you mistaken? Did you lie about how many years difference there was, or were you mistaken?

    Do you even understand the difference between an error and a lie? If you don’t, then the only conclusion is that if you feel Obama lied, then you must also feel that you yourself lied.

    Regarding the Washington Post article- nowhere in that article do they claim Obama lied. They do point out the error, but see, the Washington Post clearly understands that to smear someone with the claim of lying there should be some clear evidence of fabrication, rather than what, on the surface, appears to be a simple error- whether its because Obama was simply stating what he had been told growing up, or whether he misremembered.

    “He claimed in his book that an article in the Life magazine transformed his life. It was a story about a black man wanting to peel off his skin . The trouble is, nobody could find that article. Obama switched story and said that perhaps it was an article in the Ebony magazine. People checked again and found out that the Ebony magazine never published such a story.”

    Oh the horrors! First of all you do realize that simply not finding the article doesn’t mean it never existed. Secondly- and I am going on memory here- I think he read that article when he was a kid in Indonesia. I hate to burst your bubble here- but I have found out- and i am close to Obama’s age- that I have misremembered things about my youth. I was looking through a box of keepsakes from my childhood a few weeks ago(we had to move our items in storage) and I was surprised by several things that I remembered incorrectly. I am always amazed at the trivial details that Obama haters pin their claims on- does it matter whether it was Life or Ebony or some other magazine? Is it material? Even if its completely wrong, its not a lie if thats what President Obama remembered.

    “When did Selma march happen? When was Obama Jr born? It is not difficult to see through this lie.”

    So when you claimed Obama lied in his autobiography about Obama Sr. arriving in the airlift, were you lying or were you mistaken? Again, the Washington Post deals with that fairly- why can’t you?

    Is that it? This is the totality of evidence you have that Obama is a habitual liar? By that evidence I should be calling you a habitual liar, but I won’t. I think you are just mistaken.

    Really- Obama haters out there- If you are so convinced that President Obama is this habitual liar- give us some real substantial lies- lies that really matter.

    Show me verifiable lies where the clear intent was to mislead people for his personal or professional benefit. If Obama is this habitual liar, you should have dozens and dozens of examples easily at your fingertips.

    And one last time- just to keep you on track.

    Were you lying or were you just mistaken? Do you understand the difference?

  313. avatar
    G June 25, 2010 at 1:02 pm #

    nc1: How do you know that a seal and a signature are legitimate and not a forgery?

    The very point of a seal & signature is authenticity. Can such things be forged -yes. But the default assumption, by their very nature is that they are authentic.

    Therefore, unless you have any actual evidence or proof of forgery, you are leaping to conspiracy-based conclusions, without any logical basis to support it.

    Your fanciful whims of speculation and mere emotional reactions to things you don’t like don’t cut it.

    In other words, you are merely being paranoid for the sake of being paranoid and without a credible basis for such, do not deserve to be taken seriously.

  314. avatar
    sfjeff June 25, 2010 at 1:06 pm #

    “Since Obama paid for COLB (as you claimed) there must be a record for money received by the government agency”

    I am sure there is. Rational people don’t care.

    Rational people looked at his posted COLB and came to the conclusion that he was eligible to be President and voted him into office. Congress confirmed him. Chief Justice Roberts swore him in.

    Irrational people cannot accept this, and continue to pursue their firm conviction and faith that somewhere out there, there is proof that President Obama was not eligible, and that once that evidence is found, the military will rise up and depose him, dismiss Congress and impose a new government, all to protect the Constitution.

    God protect us from true Patriots.

  315. avatar
    G June 25, 2010 at 1:19 pm #

    sfjeff: Is that it? This is the totality of evidence you have that Obama is a habitual liar? By that evidence I should be calling you a habitual liar, but I won’t. I think you are just mistaken.

    Really- Obama haters out there- If you are so convinced that President Obama is this habitual liar- give us some real substantial lies- lies that really matter.

    Show me verifiable lies where the clear intent was to mislead people for his personal or professional benefit. If Obama is this habitual liar, you should have dozens and dozens of examples easily at your fingertips.

    And one last time- just to keep you on track.

    Were you lying or were you just mistaken? Do you understand the difference?

    Well said, SFJeff.

    Obviously NC1 at least exhibits the inability to distinguish between simple, common mis-recollection that every single one of us experiences in our life and telling intentional falsehoods.

    Although I will go further than you and outright call NC1 a habitual liar and an intentional one as well.

    NC1s statements & actions here and on other boards seems to show a fairly clear intent to mislead. Therefore, NC1s actions to do such are purposeful and do not appear to be just honest misunderstandings or ignorance.

    In other words, NC1 knowingly chooses to make up stories, spread falsehoods and make misleading insinuations so that completely meaningless or innocuous occurrences or statements appear “sinister”.

    So, it is beyond just mere irony and projection when NC1, who clearly and intentionally lies repeatedly, makes insinuations against the President’s integrity. It is full blown hypocrisy and laughably transparently obvious as such.

  316. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 25, 2010 at 1:21 pm #

    nc1: “The first article documenting Barack Obama Sr.’s presence in Hawaii was by journalist Shurei Hirozawa in the Honolulu Star Bulletin on Sept. 18, 1959, only nine days after the Jackie Robinson airlift.”

    Now back to your comment earlier about the story that Obama Sr. arrived by boat, and I am asking you the third time:

    Is it true, or do you even think in those terms?

  317. avatar
    Greg June 25, 2010 at 1:26 pm #

    nc1: He claimed in his book that an article in the Life magazine transformed his life. It was a story about a black man wanting to peel off his skin . The trouble is, nobody could find that article. Obama switched story and said that perhaps it was an article in the Ebony magazine.

    This one’s in the book. It’s on pages 29-30 of Dreams. He was describing, from memory, a picture he saw around age nine:

    But in one corner I found a collection of Life magazines neatly displayed in clear plastic binders. I thumbed through the glossy advertisements — Goodyear Tires and Dodge Fever, Zenith TV (“Why not the best?”) and Campbell’s Soup (“Mm-mmm good!”), men in white turtlenecks pouring Seagram’s over ice as women in red miniskirts looked on admiringly — and felt vaguely reassured. When I came upon a news photograph, I tried to guess the subject of the story before reading the caption.

    […]

    Eventually I came across a photograph of an older man in dark glasses and a raincoat walking down an empty road. I couldn’t guess what this picture was about; there seemed nothing unusual about the subject. On the next page was another photograph, this one a close-up of the same man’s hands. They had a strange, unnatural pallor, as if blood had been drawn from the flesh. Turning back to the first picture, I now saw that the man’s crinkly hair, his heavy lips and broad, fleshy nose, all had this same uneven, ghostly hue.

    He must be terribly sick, I thought. A radiation victim, maybe, or an albino — I had seen one of those on the street a few days before, and my mother had explained about such things. Except when I read the words that went with the picture, that wasn’t it at all. The man had received a chemical treatment, the article explained, to lighten his complexion. He had paid for it with his own money. He expressed some regret about trying to pass himself off as a white man, was sorry about how badly things had turned out. But the results were irreversible. There were thousands of people like him, black men and women back in America who’d undergone the same treatment in response to advertisements that promised happiness as a white person.

    […]

    We had lived in Indonesia for over three years by that time, the result of my mother’s marriage to an Indonesian man named Lolo, another student she had met at the University of Hawaii.

    So, he misremembered which magazine it happened in?

    Is this the best example of a lie you can find, nc1?

  318. avatar
    Greg June 25, 2010 at 1:39 pm #

    nc1: This is the list of students on the flight from Kenya to Hawaii in September 1959.

    No, it’s a list of the students who flew from Kenya to New York. It says so right on the page. You can see from the records of the group that 81 students flew on their chartered airplane and 3 flew separately. Barack Obama Sr was one of the students whose education in America was funded by the African American Students Foundation. Does it matter if he was on the plane chartered by the group, or met up with the group in New York, or flew directly to Hawaii? The group considers all 84 students to be part of “Project Air-Lift Africa 1959.”

    And, as attested to by Harry Belafonte in the article I linked to above, the group thinks that Barack Obama Sr. was part of the group!

  319. avatar
    nc1 June 26, 2010 at 2:31 pm #

    BatGuano: are you afraid of forgery or that obama stiffed the state of hawaii for the 12 bucks ?

    Obama could not stiff the state of Hawaii. He had to pay the fee in order to get the document issued. If the transaction happened as Obama suggested – there is a record of payment received.

    This would be a proof that DoH issued the COLB document to Obama on June 6, 2007 without disclosing any personal information.

    However, if there is no such record – that would indicate that the COLB image presented to the public is a fake one.

  320. avatar
    Bovril June 26, 2010 at 2:37 pm #

    nc1: However, if there is no such record – that would indicate that the COLB image presented to the public is a fake one.

    Yeah

    Apart from the minor fact that the legally relevant arms of the Hawaii’n government have confirmed on MULTIPLE occassions that Obama is born in Hawai’i, the document is kosher and Birfers are F8ing insane.

    Oh and don’t do your usual cack and say CITE CITE, you have been provided with those on multiple occassions to.

  321. avatar
    BatGuano June 26, 2010 at 2:48 pm #

    nc1:
    Obama could not stiff the state of Hawaii. He had to pay the fee in order to get the document issued.

    so you believe that obama can get the gov and DOH of hawaii to lie for him but couldn’t get around a $12 processing fee.

  322. avatar
    sfjeff June 26, 2010 at 3:11 pm #

    “This would be a proof that DoH issued the COLB document to Obama on June 6, 2007 without disclosing any personal information.”

    Certainly it would be additional evidence. The COLB by itself is evidence that they did. As are the confirmations by Hawaiian officials.

    “However, if there is no such record – that would indicate that the COLB image presented to the public is a fake one”

    No, not really. It would indicate that Hawaii couldn’t find a record of the receipt. What if they were missing the record of the receipt but still had records of issuing the COLB to Obama?

    Of course you are just pulling speculations out of …..the air. You ignore the clear evidence- the COLB, the newspaper postings, the statements by Hawaiian officials but somehow claim if you could only see the receipt that Obama had paid for the COLB suddenly you would accept it. But we know you wouldn’t.

    How? Because you have already gone with your “Grannie Forgery/home birth claim” and the receipt would prove nothing one way or another. Really- you and the rest of the birthers are just throwing a plate of spaghetti at the wall and hoping one of the strands will hit something useful.

    Any NC1- you still haven’t answered- are you a habitual liar or do you just occassionally make statements in error?

  323. avatar
    G June 26, 2010 at 3:19 pm #

    sfjeff: Any NC1- you still haven’t answered- are you a habitual liar or do you just occassionally make statements in error?

    Oooh, oooh. I’ll weigh in with my take.

    I think its both. By the postings we have seen to date, it seems reasonable to conclude that NC1 is definitely a complete pathological habitual liar who frequently makes statements in error.

    There. Fixed!

  324. avatar
    misha June 26, 2010 at 4:21 pm #

    nc1: “The article suggested Barack Obama Sr., then fully settled in Hawaii and enrolled at the university, had used personal savings to pay his travel expenses from Kenya to Hawaii and tuition costs at the university…”

    Yeah, someone who came from a family of goat herders, who lived in a thatched roof hut without electricity or telephone, came up with at least $12,000 in constant dollars.

    Really, those people should stick to writing fiction novels. The have deus ex machina perfected.

  325. avatar
    nc1 June 26, 2010 at 4:36 pm #

    sfjeff: “This would be a proof that DoH issued the COLB document to Obama on June 6, 2007 without disclosing any personal information.”Certainly it would be additional evidence. The COLB by itself is evidence that they did. As are the confirmations by Hawaiian officials. “However, if there is no such record – that would indicate that the COLB image presented to the public is a fake one”No, not really. It would indicate that Hawaii couldn’t find a record of the receipt. What if they were missing the record of the receipt but still had records of issuing the COLB to Obama? Of course you are just pulling speculations out of …..the air. You ignore the clear evidence- the COLB, the newspaper postings, the statements by Hawaiian officials but somehow claim if you could only see the receipt that Obama had paid for the COLB suddenly you would accept it. But we know you wouldn’t.How? Because you have already gone with your “Grannie Forgery/home birth claim” and the receipt would prove nothing one way or another. Really- you and the rest of the birthers are just throwing a plate of spaghetti at the wall and hoping one of the strands will hit something useful. Any NC1- you still haven’t answered- are you a habitual liar or do you just occassionally make statements in error?

    Could you show one source for the claim that Hawaii DoH confirmed that COLB was issued to Obama on June 6, 2007?

    If they were missing a receipt and still had a record indicating that COLB was issued to Obama that would be fine with me. The problem is – they do not want to confirm that this is indeed the truth.

    You call it a clear evidence, but it does not exclude the possibility that Obama’s birth was registered by a relative. It is my opinion, based on the behavior of DoH and Obama’s campaign.

    The following video is very educational:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/TheDrRJP#p/c/C2281523DF8C0230/0/nc5JE0JAqlk

  326. avatar
    nc1 June 26, 2010 at 4:39 pm #

    Bovril: YeahApart from the minor fact that the legally relevant arms of the Hawaii’n government have confirmed on MULTIPLE occassions that Obama is born in Hawai’i, the document is kosher and Birfers are F8ing insane.Oh and don’t do your usual cack and say CITE CITE, you have been provided with those on multiple occassions to.

    A comment on Hawaii official’s behavior:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/TheDrRJP#p/c/C2281523DF8C0230/0/nc5JE0JAqlk

  327. avatar
    nc1 June 26, 2010 at 4:42 pm #

    misha: nc1: “The article suggested Barack Obama Sr., then fully settled in Hawaii and enrolled at the university, had used personal savings to pay his travel expenses from Kenya to Hawaii and tuition costs at the university…”Yeah, someone who came from a family of goat herders, who lived in a thatched roof hut without electricity or telephone, came up with at least $12,000 in constant dollars.Really, those people should stick to writing fiction novels. The have deus ex machina perfected.

    Why do you think that the cost of a boat ticket was $12,000? The same article said that Obama Sr. had a plan to get a job or obtain a scholarship because he was about to run out of personal money.

  328. avatar
    misha June 26, 2010 at 4:52 pm #

    nc1: Why do you think that the cost of a boat ticket was $12,000? The same article said that Obama Sr. had a plan to get a job or obtain a scholarship because he was about to run out of personal money.

    Snore.

  329. avatar
    Bovril June 26, 2010 at 5:26 pm #

    nc1: A comment on Hawaii official’s behavior:

    No, A lying, discredited diatribe without fact or credibility

    Come on NC1, try and ACTUALLY answer any one of the rebuttals.

  330. avatar
    misha June 26, 2010 at 5:32 pm #

    Bovril: Come on NC1, try and ACTUALLY answer any one of the rebuttals.

    Surely, you jest.

  331. avatar
    Whatever4 June 26, 2010 at 5:41 pm #

    nc1: Obama could not stiff the state of Hawaii. He had to pay the fee in order to get the document issued. If the transaction happened as Obama suggested – there is a record of payment received. This would be a proof that DoH issued the COLB document to Obama on June 6, 2007 without disclosing any personal information. However, if there is no such record – that would indicate that the COLB image presented to the public is a fake one.

    You don’t consider your purchases to be private information? The records do exist — but YOU are not entitled to see what someone else purchased.

  332. avatar
    BatGuano June 26, 2010 at 6:50 pm #

    nc1:
    Could you show one source for the claim that Hawaii DoH confirmed that COLB was issued to Obama on June 6, 2007?

    nope. nor could i show a source for the claim that the DMV confirmed that your driver’s license was issued on ( pick a date ).

  333. avatar
    nc1 June 26, 2010 at 10:18 pm #

    Bovril: No, A lying, discredited diatribe without fact or credibilityCome on NC1, try and ACTUALLY answer any one of the rebuttals.

    Are you saying that Hawaii did not change the COLB format as the video claims?

    Did you miss the audio recording (at 5:39) indicating that governor Lingle told a lie. She said in a radio interview that they issued a news release saying that Obama was born in the Kapioalni hospital. The DoH never mentioned Obama being born in the Kapiolani hospital.

  334. avatar
    The Sheriff's A Ni- June 26, 2010 at 10:43 pm #

    nc1: Did you miss the audio recording (at 5:39) indicating that governor Lingle told a lie. She said in a radio interview that they issued a news release saying that Obama was born in the Kapioalni hospital. The DoH never mentioned Obama being born in the Kapiolani hospital.

    Welcome to Birtherstan, where a missed recollection automatically becomes a ‘lie’.

  335. avatar
    Bovril June 26, 2010 at 10:59 pm #

    Still waiting NC!.

    You know, fact, not supposition, proof not wild arsed guess. truth not outright lie.

  336. avatar
    nc1 June 26, 2010 at 11:08 pm #

    The Sheriff’s A Ni-: Welcome to Birtherstan, where a missed recollection automatically becomes a lie’.

    It is OK for her to say that Obama was born in the Kapiolani yet the DoH cannot confirm that they issued Obama’s COLB. Welcome to the land of Obots, where officials can break the law and it is ignored because it helps Obama.

  337. avatar
    The Sheriff's A Ni- June 26, 2010 at 11:36 pm #

    nc1: It is OK for her to say that Obama was born in the Kapiolani yet the DoH cannot confirm that they issued Obama’s COLB. Welcome to the land of Obots, where officials can break the law and it is ignored because it helps Obama.

    Welcome back to Birtherstan where every typo and technicality is evidence of the grand conspiracy to put a black man in the White House.

    And where inconvenient truths brought by Bovril are ducked and evaded.

  338. avatar
    Majority Will June 26, 2010 at 11:42 pm #

    The Sheriff’s A Ni-:
    Welcome back to Birtherstan where every typo and technicality is evidence of the grand conspiracy to put a black man in the White House.And where inconvenient truths brought by Bovril are ducked and evaded.

    You will never get a straight answer from her.
    “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

  339. avatar
    nc1 June 27, 2010 at 3:04 am #

    The Sheriff’s A Ni-: Welcome back to Birtherstan where every typo and technicality is evidence of the grand conspiracy to put a black man in the White House.And where inconvenient truths brought by Bovril are ducked and evaded.

    What typo or technicality are you referring to? Gov. Lindle clearly said in a radio interview “we issued a press-release saying that president was, in fact, born in the Kapiolani hospital in Honolulu”.

    Such press-release was never issued.

    However, this will not stop Obama supporters from claiming that Lingle confirmed Obama’s birth in the Kapiolani hospital.

    I am yet to hear from an Obama supporter criticizing Gov. Lingle for her statement. Why do you apply double standards when it comes to privacy laws?

    If she can claim that Obama was born in the Kapiolani hospital there should be no problem for Hawaii DoH to confirm that they issued COLB to Obama.

  340. avatar
    nc1 June 27, 2010 at 4:29 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: It’s still there in a PDF on the site. I checked it just this week and left a link in a comment here.

    Are you refering to the Centennial Magazine? The letter published in the magazine is not the scan of the original sent by Obama. Hospital arranged the creation of an HTML version of the original and posted it on its web site. It was promptly removed when WND started asking questions.
    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=103633

    An interesting quote from the article:
    ” Kapi’olani spokeswoman Kristy Watanabe today refused to even confirm the existence of an actual letter from the White House, only parroting her previous statement to WND: “Federal law does not permit us to provide any more details concerning information [about Obama’s birth] without authorization from Mr. Obama.”

    WND asked again since they have been celebrating Obama’s own supposed written admission that he was born at the facility, isn’t that authorization?

    “No comment,” Watanabe said.

    WND can also reveal the hospital not only proclaimed itself as Obama’s birth location online, it used the Oval Office disclosure as a major fund-raising tool, giving it massive play on page six in its spring edition of its own Inspire Magazine. ”

    I find it interesting how they try to have it both ways: they used the letter to raise the money but did not stand behind the birthplace claim when asked about it by the media.

  341. avatar
    Greg June 27, 2010 at 6:21 am #

    If she can claim that Obama was born in the Kapiolani hospital there should be no problem for Hawaii DoH to confirm that they issued COLB to Obama.

    If the governor accidentally violates the law, it’s okay for another government agency to deliberately violate the law?

    So, if I speed, it’s okay for you to run a red light?

    WND asked again since they have been celebrating Obama’s own supposed written admission that he was born at the facility, isn’t that authorization?

    Clue: An authorization would look something like this:

    “I authorize the hospital to confirm details to the press.”

    What’s the birther record for legal success? Pretty terrible, right? You’re asking the hospital to release information based on a birther interpretation of HIPAA, for them to risk government fines because you think you’ve interpreted HIPAA to say that this letter is an authorization to share additional information.

    Would you be willing to risk $10,000-50,000 and a year in jail that the birthers have bucked their 0-78 trend and are actually right about a legal interpretation this time?