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Chris Matthews plays “hard ball”

Chris Matthews

MSNBC personality Chris Matthews took on Republican leader Mitch McConnell about his non-comment comment about Barack Obama’s religion. Speaking about McConnell’s remarks  on the Meet the Press program, Matthews said:

It’s really quite sleazy the way they’re doing it. They don’t have the nerve to go out and say he’s not American and he’s a secret member of another religion. They do it what Senator Mitch McConnell did Sunday, encourage that notion, underwrite the crazies – meanwhile, undermining any positive action by the government they’ve sworn to serve.

Quote courtesy of The Irish Times.

Matthews described McConnell as “playing ball with the birther crowd.”

So is this political correctness run amok, and unfairly chastising McConnell, or is McConnell engaging in a cynical smear campaign?

297 Responses to Chris Matthews plays “hard ball”

  1. avatar
    Bovril August 30, 2010 at 8:36 am #

    On a related note, the Brian WIlliams interview the President gave where he gave a somewhat tetchy response to the Birfer issue is being hailed in Birferstan with the traditional ullulations of “sweating bullets”, “having a meltdown”, “proof he’s a fake” etc etc.

    The specific commnet they are all wetting themselves like incontinent puppies over being……

    “I can’t spend all my time with my birth certificate plastered on my forehead.”

    Waiting on a followup from the Sven and the Puppets in 3….2….1…

  2. avatar
    Mark August 30, 2010 at 9:39 am #

    I don’t care about the color of Obama’s skin or his religious affiliation. What I just can’t get past is why on earth would he not show the long form birth certificate and end this madness, I for one would be relieved ! I know, I know,…….there will be claims that nothing will satisfy the “Birther” crowd and there may be some validity to that claim but there are many such as myself that would just like it to end…………..please.

    Mark.

  3. avatar
    JoZeppy August 30, 2010 at 10:00 am #

    Mark: I don’t care about the color of Obama’s skin or his religious affiliation. What I just can’t get past is why on earth would he not show the long form birth certificate and end this madness, I for one would be relieved ! I know, I know,…….there will be claims that nothing will satisfy the “Birther” crowd and there may be some validity to that claim but there are many such as myself that would just like it to end…………..please.Mark.

    Why do you hate your country so much that feels you have the perrogative to ignore its laws and Constitution? I would think the words “prima facie evidence” and “full faith and credit” would mean something a real American.

  4. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 10:01 am #

    Mark: I don’t care about the color of Obama’s skin or his religious affiliation. What I just can’t get past is why on earth would he not show the long form birth certificate and end this madness, I for one would be relieved ! I know, I know,…….there will be claims that nothing will satisfy the “Birther” crowd and there may be some validity to that claim but there are many such as myself that would just like it to end…………..please.Mark.

    Ah another “mark” concern trolling. What more would you get from the Long Form that establishes his birth in Hawaii? What other details would show that he was born in Hawaii more than the Birth Certificate that Hawaii gave Obama?

  5. avatar
    richCares August 30, 2010 at 10:08 am #

    Hawaii only supplies one form of birth certificate, that’s what Obama showed. So Mark, stop your phony “show me the long form” crap and go back to birtherstan.

  6. avatar
    Arthur August 30, 2010 at 10:17 am #

    Mark:

    Birthers are guided by conspiratorial thinking, not by objective evidence or reasonable argument. Practical experience and scientific research demonstrate that once people have fallen into a conspiratorial mindset, it’s extraordinarily difficult for them to accept information that contradicts what they believe to be true. Moreover, in the face of irrefutable proof, they will develop outlandish explanations as to why this proof is a lie. Providing more evidence of President Obama’s birth in Hawaii won’t satisfy birthers and isn’t needed by the rest of the country.

  7. avatar
    Black Lion August 30, 2010 at 10:26 am #

    And of course our friends over at the Post and Fail have jumped all over this….I think the harp playing Sharon Rondeau is starting to really lose it….Some snippets of her rant are below….It looks like it has gone way beyond any attempt at journalism…

    “In an interview with MSNBC anchor Brian Williams earlier today, Barack Hussein Obama complained that he “can’t spend all of my time with my birth certificate plastered on my forehead.” The fact is, he doesn’t have to, and no one is asking him to.

    The childish rant of a compulsive thug who bamboozled more than 67,700,000 adults into voting for him in November 2008 comes from the most dishonest, conniving and fraudulent individual ever to attain political office in U.S. history.

    For him to acknowledge “birthers” but fail to show a document which would cost him $10.00 to obtain when his wife and daughter vacation in Spain, then the entire family enjoyed golf and relaxation at Martha’s Vineyard while “the worst offshore oil spill in U.S. history” rages on is a sign of his mental instability and inability to function in society.

    The only thing is, his original “vital record” is not an American birth certificate. Not one hospital in the country claims his birth. Not one witness has come forward stating his or her presence at his entrance into the world on U.S. soil. He is a lying, conniving cheater who, by his own words to Williams, knows that he is ineligible to serve as president and realizes that he is over his head because the American people will demand the truth about him.

    Why should we believe he’s a Christian when he caters to the Muslim world, groveling at the feet of those with terrorist ties and bowing to his Saudi master? And how about his Ramadan dinners?

    A Christian does not favor government funding of abortions as Obama does.

    Is Obama mentally ill? Maybe he should vacation in his home country.

    Where did Obama’s stepfather, Lolo Soetoro, get his nickname?

    Are Obama’s parents really Stanley Ann Dunham and Barack Obama Sr.?”

    http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/08/29/is-obama-losing-his-grip-on-reality/

  8. avatar
    Scientist August 30, 2010 at 10:31 am #

    Black Lion: Not one witness has come forward stating his or her presence at his entrance into the world on U.S. soil.

    I have. Why does every one ignore that?

  9. avatar
    charo August 30, 2010 at 10:46 am #

    Bovril: On a related note, the Brian WIlliams interview the President gave where he gave a somewhat tetchy response to the Birfer issue is being hailed in Birferstan with the traditional ullulations of “sweating bullets”, “having a meltdown”, “proof he’s a fake” etc etc.The specific commnet they are all wetting themselves like incontinent puppies over being…… “I can’t spend all my time with my birth certificate plastered on my forehead.”Waiting on a followup from the Sven and the Puppets in 3….2….1…

    If you read through this portion of the interview, you can see that Obama wanted to concentrate on deflecting the birther topic because Williams clearly was referring to the Muslim topic. Williams then changed the subject to Glen Beck.

    BRIAN WILLIAMS: And yet, increasing and now significant numbers of Americans in polls, upwards of a fifth of respondents are claiming you are neither. A fifth of the people, just about, believe you’re a Muslim.

    PRESIDENT OBAMA: Keep in mind, those two things — American born and Muslim — are not the same. So — but I understand your point.

    BRIAN WILLIAMS: Either or the latter, and the most recent number is the latter. This has to be troubling to you. This is, of course, all new territory for an American President.

    PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, look, the — the facts are the facts, right? So, we went through some of this during the campaign. You know, there is a mechanism, a network of misinformation, that in a new media era can get churned out there constantly. We dealt with this when I was first running for the U.S. Senate. We dealt with it when we were first running for the Presidency. There were those who said I couldn’t win as U.S. Senator because I had a funny name. And people would be too unfamiliar with it. And yet, we ended up winning that Senate seat in Illinois because I trusted in the American people’s capacity to get beyond all this nonsense and focus on is this somebody who cares about me and cares about my family and has a vision for the future? And so, I will always put my money on the American people. And I’m not going to be worrying too much about whatever rumors are floating on — out there. If I spend all my time chasing after that then I wouldn’t get much done.

    BRIAN WILLIAMS: Even a number as sizeable as this — what does it say to you? Does it say anything about your communications or the effectiveness of your opponents to —

    PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, look, Brian, I — I would say that I can’t spend all my time with my birth certificate plastered on my forehead. (LAUGHS) It — it is what — the facts are the facts. And so, it’s not something that I can I think spend all my time worrying about. And I don’t think the American people want me to spend all my time worrying about it.

    This was a very good response to the question about Beck:

    PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, I have to say, I — I did not watch the rally. I think that one of the wonderful things about this country is that at any given moment any group of people can decide, you know, “We want to — our voices heard.” And — and so, I think that Mr. Beck and the rest of those folks were exercising their rights under our Constitution exactly as they should.

  10. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 10:58 am #

    Good lord what a vile lady. How many times can you say someone is a liar, cheater, etc in one story? All this is code for the underlying Dr. Laura rant.

  11. avatar
    AnotherBird August 30, 2010 at 11:23 am #

    Mark: I don’t care about the color of Obama’s skin or his religious affiliation. What I just can’t get past is why on earth would he not show the long form birth certificate and end this madness, I for one would be relieved ! I know, I know,…….there will be claims that nothing will satisfy the “Birther” crowd and there may be some validity to that claim but there are many such as myself that would just like it to end…………..please.Mark.

    What madness Mark? Are you talking about the madness that no other president has shown his birth certificate, long form or otherwise? Are you talking about the madness, that the State of Hawaii had to confirm twice that they have his birth records? The only madness is those people who believe the president isn’t constitutionally eligible.

    You said “I for one would be relieved.” My question is “Why don’t you accept the State of Hawaii confirmations?”

  12. avatar
    Black Lion August 30, 2010 at 11:29 am #

    Good article from Media Matters….

    Newsweek’s Alter Slams Fox-Promoted Obama Myths
    August 30, 2010 9:48 am ET by Joe Strupp

    Just days after PolitiFact criticized the 18% of respondents in a recent poll who believe President Obama is Muslim — awarding them its “Pants-On-Fire” false rating — Newsweek’s Jonathan Alter offers a strong case against that and other myths and lies about the president.

    In a cover story today titled “The Making of a Terrorist-Coddling, War-Mongering, Wall Street-Loving, Socialist, Godless, Muslim President – who isn’t actually any of these things,” Alter goes myth-by-myth to correct the record and critique those who perpetuate it.

    Our maddening times demand that the truth be forthrightly stated at the outset, and not just that the president has nothing in common with the führer beyond the possession of a dog. The outlandish stories about Barack Hussein Obama are simply false: he wasn’t born outside the United States (the tabloid “proof” has been debunked as a crude forgery); he has never been a Muslim (he was raised by an atheist and became a practicing Christian in his 20s); his policies are not “socialist” (he explicitly rejected advice to nationalize the banks and wants the government out of General Motors and Chrysler as quickly as possible); he is not a “warmonger” (he promised in 2008 to withdraw from Iraq and escalate in Afghanistan and has done so); he is neither a coddler of terrorists (he has already ordered the killing of more “high value” Qaeda targets in 18 months than his predecessor did in eight years), nor a coddler of Wall Street (his financial-reform package, while watered down, was the most vigorous since the New Deal), nor an enemy of American business (he and the Chamber of Commerce favor tax credits for small business that were stymied by the GOP to deprive him of a victory). And that’s just the short list of lies.

    He later adds:

    The blame for this extends from Fox News and the Republican leadership, to the peculiar psychology of resentment in public opinion, to the ham-handed political response of the Obama White House. Whatever the cause, if smash-mouth tactics are validated by huge GOP gains in the midterm elections, then Big Lie politics may be with us for good.

    In some ways, it has always been with us, going back to the 18th-century calumny of James Callender against John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Alexander Hamilton. More recently, the Rev. Jerry Falwell sponsored a film that falsely accused President Clinton of ordering murders and dealing drugs. What’s changed about politics as a contact sport is the reach of the lies. With the exception of Father Charles Coughlin, the anti-Semitic “radio priest” of the 1930s, reactionaries haven’t generally had big audiences. But now the cranks who once could do little more than write ranting letters to the editor on the red ribbons of their typewriters (loaded with exclamation points and in all caps, of course) can spread their venom virally, with the help of right-wing billionaires underwriting their organizations. And while the cable network they watch, Fox News, might not actively promote the idea that the president is a foreign-born Muslim, it does little to knock it down. Fox often covers Obama’s place of birth and religion more as matters of opinion than of fact.

    http://mediamatters.org/strupp/201008300028

  13. avatar
    Sean August 30, 2010 at 12:12 pm #

    Mark: I don’t care about the color of Obama’s skin or his religious affiliation. What I just can’t get past is why on earth would he not show the long form birth certificate and end this madness, I for one would be relieved ! I know, I know,…….there will be claims that nothing will satisfy the “Birther” crowd and there may be some validity to that claim but there are many such as myself that would just like it to end…………..please.Mark.

    But Mark, you seem of the notion that his “Long-form” would say something different than the standard issue BC Obama posted online.

    And if you don’t care about the color of Obama’s skin, why aren’t you calling out for Biden’s BC, or Bush, Clinton, etc….

  14. avatar
    Majority Will August 30, 2010 at 12:36 pm #

    Mark: I don’t care about the color of Obama’s skin or his religious affiliation. What I just can’t get past is why on earth would he not show the long form birth certificate and end this madness, I for one would be relieved ! I know, I know,…….there will be claims that nothing will satisfy the “Birther” crowd and there may be some validity to that claim but there are many such as myself that would just like it to end…………..please.Mark.

    I’m trying to find YOUR standard of eligibility in the Constitution. Please point it out for us.

    Unless you have credible evidence that contradicts the state of Hawaii’s legal authority and statement that the President is a natural born citizen from the state of Hawaii then you’re nothing more than an irrelevant, annoying, little birther troll.

    You are entitled to nothing more than the law allows and your utter contempt for U.S. law and the Constitution is revolting.

  15. avatar
    Scientist August 30, 2010 at 12:41 pm #

    Mark: What I just can’t get past is why on earth would he not show the long form birth certificate

    Obama has shown his long form. He is well above average in height. As for whether other parts of his form are similarly long, you’d have to ask Michelle.

  16. avatar
    misha August 30, 2010 at 12:44 pm #

    Mark: What I just can’t get past is why on earth would he not show the long form birth certificate and end this madness

    Mark, I am glad you pointed this out. I found a Kenya BC (Obama’s?) that’s right here!

    Thanks for visiting.

  17. avatar
    jamese777 August 30, 2010 at 12:57 pm #

    There is no additional information on a 1961 Hawaii long form birth certificate that is relevant to the Article 2, Section 1 requirements to be president.
    The Constitution does not require parents’ occupations, attending physician’s name, or any of the other extraneous information on a long form.

    In my humble opinion Obama does not show the long form for three reasons:
    1) The state of Hawaii no longer releases long forms since 2001 and if Obama released a copy under his own initiative, no birther would accept it as a genuine document because it was released by Obama. However it is very telling that the original document could be released under a subpoena and no birther has yet sought a subpoena for that document. That fact alone says to me that birtherism is not a serious issue.
    2) The Certification of Live Birth (COLB) that has been shown has been authenticated as genuine by the state of Hawaii by the Republican Governor, the Republican Attorney General, the Director of Health and the Registrar of Vital Statistics. That document contains the constitutionally required information, place of birth and date of birth.
    3) For purely crass political reasons keeping the birther issue alive works to Obama’s political advantage with his base of political support, particularly with Latinos who also have their citizenship constantly challenged and the birther issue is a “divide and conquer” wedge issue within the conservative camp. You’ve got hard core conservatives like Ann Coulter and Karl Rove calling birthers “cranks” and “conspiracy nuts.”
    Obama is well aware that no one who questions his birthplace or religious affiliation would ever vote for him in the first place.

  18. avatar
    Dave August 30, 2010 at 1:01 pm #

    About Mitch McConnell’s comment. I have become used to Republicans lying through their teeth, so I would rate this comment Not As Bad As Usual. Still, I have not become used to reporters letting people get away with lying — that is, reporters do this pretty much constantly, but it still irks me every time — so I’m glad Matthews called attention to it. I would be happier if Matthews and other reporters did this a little more regularly. I would have been happier if someone on Meet the Press asked McConnell how he would respond if someone asked him if he were secretly a Muslim.

  19. avatar
    Bovril August 30, 2010 at 1:08 pm #

    On the brighter side it look like Offshore Bob of the American Grand Jury meme is accelerating his implosion so hopefully we’ll see less of the “pre-resentments” of whatever the hell they call them.

    http://americangrandjury.org/the-brotherhood-of-darkness-part-two-changing-of-the-guard

    Basically it appears that Obama is in fact a direct agent of Satan, furthering the original Satanic One World NWO plan led by them damn English Imperialists.

    It seems further that Old Nick is himself feeling a bit of the old economic pinch and for furthering his plans he does in fact have to work with Investment Banking cabals such as “AIG’s, General Electric’s, Goldman Sack’s ” to get his Earthly funding (I see a new sub prime market in souls……)

    Other tasty morsels

    Islam is also Satanic
    Obama is in power due to his occult powers
    Obama is of course a variant of Hitler
    Churchill and Da Ebil English Empire were all in on it AND deliberately extended the Second World War (no particular reason brought up, something to do with banking..?)
    Obama and Da Ebil American Gubmint are all pushing satanic symbols as…..”Remember, the Devil is a “big” symbolism freak. ”
    Etc
    Etc

    Bob’s dwindling rag tag set of muppets chime in with a couple of Nostradamus’s, a bevy of bible quotes and then usual retch of Nazi/Mooslem/Commie/Psychopath/Darth Vader(I jest not)/Usurpers.

    Entertaining in a “WTF, lets go and poke the insane with a stick down at Bedlam for sport” sort of way

  20. avatar
    Scott Brown August 30, 2010 at 1:20 pm #

    Mark, I would have to agree with everyone else – he doesn’t have to show his long form, and nor should he be expected to.

    Although I would be remiss if I didn’t point out one small err: RichCares stated that Hawaii only supplies one form of birth certificate. That’s just silly and obviously /sarcasm on his part. As we all know, there are times when ONLY the long-form will suffice and the Hawaiian DOH is well capable of supplying its citizens with a long-form when correctly requested. So, of course the DOH maintains the original long-form, just as Fukino stated. The only difference in the short and long form has nothing to do with anatomy as Scientist would have you believe, but rather the small supporting details of the birth. The short-form is more of a summary, if you will, which is representative of the long-form presenting the information in a condensed way. Therefore, I think it is safe to say, Obama was in fact born in Hawaii as the COLB shows.

    In today’s information technology explosion, to think for one second that the government no longer has birth weight, length, hospital, and attending signatures is being totally and completely naive. Remember, we are talking about the government who GPS’s street addresses in the name of Census taking – there is not one shred of individual information that the government does not keep, catalog, index, and cross reference, don’t kid yourself into thinking otherwise.

    I’m sorry that Misha felt the need to patronize you, that wasn’t very nice, but if you hang around this blog very long, you will find out that most of the posters here are not very nice, which is unfortunate that we cannot be civil and speak respectfully to our fellow Americans.

    I understand your frustration, but Obama shouldn’t be expected to show any of his documents to the public. In the past, Presidents have done so out of their own self-willingness to appease the public, but it should in no way be required after you are in office. That’s what the vote is about. The time to question Obama was BEFORE you visited your voting booth, not now. I’m guessing, although not assured, that you’ll have another chance to question him – in 2012.

  21. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 30, 2010 at 1:32 pm #

    Mark: I don’t care about the color of Obama’s skin or his religious affiliation. What I just can’t get past is why on earth would he not show the long form birth certificate and end this madness, I for one would be relieved ! I know, I know,…….there will be claims that nothing will satisfy the “Birther” crowd and there may be some validity to that claim but there are many such as myself that would just like it to end…………..please.

    Hi Mark. Thanks for your comment. These discussions typically consist of some head butting and no real dialog, but I would really like to know know more about your thinking. Particularly I am interested in your phrase “end this madness.” Could you take some time and talk about what you see is the “madness” and how it affects you personally. Is your concern a personal discomfort wondering about the President’s constitutional eligibility, or are you anxious about the existence of a lot of folks who do not recognize the legitimacy of the government?

    If your concern is personal, then I’d like to understand why the issue is important enough that you’re here commenting on the Internet and asking for relief. If your concern has to do with a large number of folks who do not recognize the legitimacy of the government, then I share that concern and I do, as you say, believe that a certified copy of Obama’s original birth certificate would have little impact on the birther movement for reasons I have written about at length in articles on this web site.

    I look forward to your reply.

  22. avatar
    Ellid August 30, 2010 at 1:33 pm #

    Mark: I don’t care about the color of Obama’s skin or his religious affiliation. What I just can’t get past is why on earth would he not show the long form birth certificate and end this madness, I for one would be relieved ! I know, I know,…….there will be claims that nothing will satisfy the “Birther” crowd and there may be some validity to that claim but there are many such as myself that would just like it to end…………..please.Mark.

    Mark, or whatever your name is:

  23. avatar
    Ellid August 30, 2010 at 1:35 pm #

    Mark: I don’t care about the color of Obama’s skin or his religious affiliation. What I just can’t get past is why on earth would he not show the long form birth certificate and end this madness, I for one would be relieved ! I know, I know,…….there will be claims that nothing will satisfy the “Birther” crowd and there may be some validity to that claim but there are many such as myself that would just like it to end…………..please.Mark.

    That should have been “Mark, or whatever your name is:

    THE PRESIDENT ALREADY RELEASED HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE TWO YEARS AGO.

    Mark, or whatever your name is:

    HE ALREADY DID. TWO YEARS AGO.

  24. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 1:41 pm #

    Scott Brown: Mark, I would have to agree with everyone else – he doesn’t have to show his long form, and nor should he be expected to. Although I would be remiss if I didn’t point out one small err: RichCares stated that Hawaii only supplies one form of birth certificate. That’s just silly and obviously /sarcasm on his part. As we all know, there are times when ONLY the long-form will suffice and the Hawaiian DOH is well capable of supplying its citizens with a long-form when correctly requested. So, of course the DOH maintains the original long-form, just as Fukino stated. The only difference in the short and long form has nothing to do with anatomy as Scientist would have you believe, but rather the small supporting details of the birth. The short-form is more of a summary, if you will, which is representative of the long-form presenting the information in a condensed way. Therefore, I think it is safe to say, Obama was in fact born in Hawaii as the COLB shows.In today’s information technology explosion, to think for one second that the government no longer has birth weight, length, hospital, and attending signatures is being totally and completely naive. Remember, we are talking about the government who GPS’s street addresses in the name of Census taking – there is not one shred of individual information that the government does not keep, catalog, index, and cross reference, don’t kid yourself into thinking otherwise.I’m sorry that Misha felt the need to patronize you, that wasn’t very nice, but if you hang around this blog very long, you will find out that most of the posters here are not very nice, which is unfortunate that we cannot be civil and speak respectfully to our fellow Americans.I understand your frustration, but Obama shouldn’t be expected to show any of his documents to the public. In the past, Presidents have done so out of their own self-willingness to appease the public, but it should in no way be required after you are in office. That’s what the vote is about. The time to question Obama was BEFORE you visited your voting booth, not now. I’m guessing, although not assured, that you’ll have another chance to question him – in 2012.

    You know what’s silly Sally Hill, how often you come here whining and crying about how you’re never going to post here again only to come back posting the same discredited BS you posted last time. If it was so easy to get a long form you birthers would have produced a Hawaiian long form birth certificate after 2001 when they changed the forms. Where is one? Besides what would be different on a long form than what’s in the COLB which would establish he was born in Hawaii? The COLB says he was born in Hawaii, the long form will say the same thing.

    No there are not times when only the long form will suffise. Just because we’ve found two states that have that doesn’t mean Hawaii does as well. We have found no proof that Hawaii has the same statutes as Texas. Most of the other 48 states show a COLB to be sufficient. I also find your previous story to be humorous considering you didn’t bother naming the state until after Doc described which states that happens in.

    As for your bit about previous presidents revealing more information. That’s crap and you know it. Please link to George H.W. Bush, Clinton, George W. Bush’s birth certificates let alone their long forms. Until then put up or shut up. You may recommence with your whining now.

  25. avatar
    Scott Brown August 30, 2010 at 1:42 pm #

    The misinformation that gets slung around this blog is atrocious!

    Why does everyone insist that Hawaii no longer issues long-form certificates? Skirting or stretching the truth does not help your argument. In my opinion, it speaks to your insecurities regarding the subject.

    My state, which is Texas (although most ppl here think I’m lying about that), no longer ‘routinely’ issues long-forms – just like Hawaii. HOWEVER, that is NOT to say they no longer release long-forms – they just don’t do it routinely. You must verbally ask for and state a reason for needing the long-form, just as I did when it was required to obtain my passport, since the State Department refused to accept my short form.

    Please show me where the Constitution states that only place of birth and date of birth is required information for running for President. Where did you get your copy of the Constitution? Mine mentions NOTHING about place / date of birth. Again, you hurt your argument significantly when you rant on about fallacious issues.

    I will agree with jamese777 on one issue – yes, this controversy does work in Obama’s favor – presently. I have a feeling it will work against him in 2012, simply because many who DID vote for him in 2008, now question his eligibility and might change their vote if given the opportunity. We’ll just have to wait and see if they are even given the opportunity to do so.

    Dave, your post was both curious and humorous. I’d comment further, but I’m not sure if you were being /sarcastic or not.

  26. avatar
    misha August 30, 2010 at 1:43 pm #

    Scott Brown: I’m sorry that Misha felt the need to patronize you

    I’m not patronizing. I’m engaging in satire.

  27. avatar
    Hulu August 30, 2010 at 1:46 pm #

    Mark,

    I hope you didn’t come here looking for understand. All questions regarding Obama are met with ridicule.

    They don’t know who submitted Obama’s birth report. They won’t even acknowledge that the status of Obama’s parents provided a situation in which the likelihood of birth outside the U.S. was greatly increased. To them, it is not important.

    They will never acknowledge that an image on the internet, that was not published by the DOH, IS NOT prima facie evidence.

    What if Obama was not born in the U.S.? There is no “proof” that he was born in Hawaii. All we have is that someone filed a report. The only reason Obama will not permit the source for his COLB to be released, and end the debate in the eyes of most, is that he knows the source would not be considered to be reliable. The logical conclusion is that it was filed by a relative.

    When you place national security in the hands of the “whatever makes us feel good” crowd, you should not expect any of them to be able to recognize the consequences.

    Loss of respect for human life.
    Illegal immigrants.
    Permit the government to disarm the citizens.
    Even distribution of wealth.

    These are all things promoted by the progressive/liberal crowd. What would that mean?

    What if Obama was not born in the U.S.?

    I fully expect sarcasm to be the primary response.

  28. avatar
    Gregory August 30, 2010 at 1:46 pm #

    Mark: What I just can’t get past is why on earth would he not show the long form birth certificate and end this madness.

    There is no “long form” birth certificate. In Hawaii, vital records are kept in an electronic database. The “Certification of Live Birth” is really nothing more than a printout of that record. Note that when Hawaii digitized their vital records they kept only the information necessary to prove the date and location of a birth – and did not bother to digitize extraneous information (like the name of the hospital or attending doctor) because those circumstances have absolutely no legal value whatsoever.

    So the irony here is that the COLB that Obama displayed is the only type of birth certificate issued by the State of Hawaii. Yes, Dr Fukino did state (just to appease the Birthers) that she had seen Obama’s original birth record – but where did she find that record? In the archives. In other words, the so-called “long form” birth certificate is now a historical (and historic) document – but it is no longer in the eyes of the Hawaii Department of Vital Records – any kind of birth certificate.

    And to claim that Obama should produce the “long form” birth certificate (without ever specifying how) is – at best – a completely disingenuous assertion. After all, if someone is not satisfied with a valid birth certificate from the State of Hawaii, then what is the chance that a musty old record (which would be far easier to forge than the COLB presented) would satisfy that person? The answer is: zero to no chance.

  29. avatar
    AnotherBird August 30, 2010 at 1:49 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
    You know what’s silly Sally Hill, how often you come here whining and crying about how you’re never going to post here again only to come back posting the same discredited BS you posted last time.If it was so easy to get a long form you birthers would have produced a Hawaiian long form birth certificate after 2001 when they changed the forms.Where is one?Besides what would be different on a long form than what’s in the COLB which would establish he was born in Hawaii?The COLB says he was born in Hawaii, the long form will say the same thing.No there are not times when only the long form will suffise.Just because we’ve found two states that have that doesn’t mean Hawaii does as well.We have found no proof that Hawaii has the same statutes as Texas.Most of the other 48 states show a COLB to be sufficient.I also find your previous story to be humorous considering you didn’t bother naming the state until after Doc described which states that happens in.As for your bit about previous presidents revealing more information.That’s crap and you know it.Please link to George H.W. Bush, Clinton, George W. Bush’s birth certificates let alone their long forms.Until then put up or shut up.You may recommence with your whining now.

    Excellent…

  30. avatar
    J. Edward Tremlett August 30, 2010 at 1:50 pm #

    Hulu: how about if we just ignore you?

    After I post this, of course. ; )

  31. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 1:51 pm #

    Scott Brown: The misinformation that gets slung around this blog is atrocious!Why does everyone insist that Hawaii no longer issues long-form certificates? Skirting or stretching the truth does not help your argument. In my opinion, it speaks to your insecurities regarding the subject.My state, which is Texas (although most ppl here think I’m lying about that), no longer routinely’ issues long-forms – just like Hawaii. HOWEVER, that is NOT to say they no longer release long-forms – they just don’t do it routinely. You must verbally ask for and state a reason for needing the long-form, just as I did when it was required to obtain my passport, since the State Department refused to accept my short form.Please show me where the Constitution states that only place of birth and date of birth is required information for running for President. Where did you get your copy of the Constitution? Mine mentions NOTHING about place / date of birth. Again, you hurt your argument significantly when you rant on about fallacious issues.I will agree with jamese777 on one issue – yes, this controversy does work in Obama’s favor – presently. I have a feeling it will work against him in 2012, simply because many who DID vote for him in 2008, now question his eligibility and might change their vote if given the opportunity. We’ll just have to wait and see if they are even given the opportunity to do so.Dave, your post was both curious and humorous. I’d comment further, but I’m not sure if you were being /sarcastic or not.

    If it is so easy Sally Hill why hasn’t the birther movement produced one from Hawaii post 2001? Serious if its so easy you would have done it by now. The amount of BS that comes from your keyboard puts you in line with war crimes. See I can use sensationalist language as well.

    Hawaii is different than Texas. Every state has different rules which brings me back to, if it was so easy Birthers would have produced one by now.

    Tell me where in the constitution it requires a long form birth certificate of the president to be released to the public let alone any birther who asks for one. Its not in there, so as you just said “Again, you hurt your argument significantly when you rant on about fallacious issues.” You have no right to the birth certificate. You had no right to even see the COLB and yet Obama appeased you crazies when he posted it online.

    Common mistake birthers make, they exaggerate their numbers greatly. Look at Orly Taitz she couldn’t even raise 20,000 from the birther movement to pay her sanction.

  32. avatar
    misha August 30, 2010 at 1:51 pm #

    Scott Brown: I have a feeling it will work against him in 2012

    I have talked with several black people who work and live in my building. The usual reply is “no white man ever had to show his birth certificate.”

    Let them scream about “two citizen parents.” It will backfire when Jindal runs in ’12.

    It will help him with Hispanic voters, too.

  33. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 1:53 pm #

    Hulu: Mark,I hope you didn’t come here looking for understand. All questions regarding Obama are met with ridicule.They don’t know who submitted Obama’s birth report. They won’t even acknowledge that the status of Obama’s parents provided a situation in which the likelihood of birth outside the U.S. was greatly increased. To them, it is not important.They will never acknowledge that an image on the internet, that was not published by the DOH, IS NOT prima facie evidence.What if Obama was not born in the U.S.? There is no “proof” that he was born in Hawaii. All we have is that someone filed a report. The only reason Obama will not permit the source for his COLB to be released, and end the debate in the eyes of most, is that he knows the source would not be considered to be reliable. The logical conclusion is that it was filed by a relative.When you place national security in the hands of the “whatever makes us feel good” crowd, you should not expect any of them to be able to recognize the consequences. Loss of respect for human life.Illegal immigrants.Permit the government to disarm the citizens.Even distribution of wealth.These are all things promoted by the progressive/liberal crowd. What would that mean?What if Obama was not born in the U.S.?I fully expect sarcasm to be the primary response.

    What if aliens entered your room last night and performed experiments on you while you slept? What would that mean? So intense… Double rainbow all the way…

    It makes as much sense as your illegal alien president scenario

  34. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 1:54 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): What if aliens entered your room last night and performed experiments on you while you slept? What would that mean? So intense… Double rainbow all the way…It makes as much sense as your illegal alien president scenario

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQSNhk5ICTI
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX0D4oZwCsA

  35. avatar
    AnotherBird August 30, 2010 at 1:55 pm #

    Hulu: There is no “proof” that he was born in Hawaii. All we have is that someone filed a report. The only reason Obama will not permit the source for his COLB to be released, and end the debate in the eyes of most, is that he knows the source would not be considered to be reliable. The logical conclusion is that it was filed by a relative.

    The document that Obama posted on the internet is proof that he was born in Hawaii. Come on you know that, and you seem more interested in ignoring laws when they proven your arguments are absurd.

  36. avatar
    Majority Will August 30, 2010 at 1:56 pm #

    Hulu: Irrelevant birther squawking and the usual lies.

    Nothing to see here.

  37. avatar
    Sef August 30, 2010 at 1:57 pm #

    Hulu: They will never acknowledge that an image on the internet, that was not published by the DOH, IS NOT prima facie evidence.

    Wrong, wrong, wrong! Everyone who understands anything understands that the scan is NOT what is referred to as prima facie evidence. If there ever were a need to produce the COLB in a legal setting it would be the ORIGINAL PAPER document which the HI DOH provided to Obama in 2007, or Obama would request the HI DOH to send another copy directly to the Court, thus conveniently sidestepping any questions of chain of custody or validity. No JPEG image (or TIFF, or PDF) would be presented to the Court. It is the signed & sealed PAPER document which is prima facie evidence.

  38. avatar
    misha August 30, 2010 at 1:58 pm #

    Hulu: What if Obama was not born in the U.S.?

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): What if aliens entered your room last night and performed experiments on you while you slept?

    What if you were on an airplane, and the pilot and co-pilot both had fatal heart attacks?

  39. avatar
    AnotherBird August 30, 2010 at 2:00 pm #

    Scott Brown: The misinformation that gets slung around this blog is atrocious!

    Why does everyone insist that Hawaii no longer issues long-form certificates?

    Well Scottie, go and fine one that was issued after 2002, or when the State of Hawaii Department of Health finalized the change of their system for maintaining vital records. No one has yet to produce one. It has been over 2 years since Obama has released his birth certificate.

    P.S. Texas isn’t Hawaii.

  40. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 2:01 pm #

    misha: What if you were on an airplane, and the pilot and co-pilot both had fatal heart attacks?

    If 7/11 is open 24 hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year, why do they put locks on their doors?

  41. avatar
    Hulu August 30, 2010 at 2:03 pm #

    What if Obama really was not born in the U.S.? What are the consequences?

  42. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 2:04 pm #

    Hulu: What if Obama really was not born in the U.S.? What are the consequences?

    Nothing. De Facto Officer doctrine. it would be the same thing if they found out the 2000 election was fraudulent. The fact is though, that Obama was born in the US and the state of Hawaii has said so.

  43. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 2:06 pm #

    Hulu: What if Obama really was not born in the U.S.? What are the consequences?

    You might want to read up on the election of Rutherford B. Hayes

  44. avatar
    Sef August 30, 2010 at 2:09 pm #

    AnotherBird:
    The document that Obama posted on the internet is proof that he was born in Hawaii. Come on you know that, and you seem more interested in ignoring laws when they proven your arguments are absurd.

    A little correction: The “proof” of his Hawaiian birth is not the Internet image, but our understanding & acceptance that the Internet image represents a true & accurate depiction of the paper document provided to Obama by HI DOH. I have no problem accepting that, but all scenarios the birthers come up with allow them to cry fake. They will never believe anything.

  45. avatar
    Majority Will August 30, 2010 at 2:11 pm #

    Hulu: What if Obama really was not born in the U.S.? What are the consequences?

    Absolutely nothing.

  46. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 2:13 pm #

    Majority Will: Absolutely nothing.

    They somehow think that if Obama was removed from office magically all legislations, appointments, etc would be undone

  47. avatar
    Black Lion August 30, 2010 at 2:15 pm #

    Hulu: What if Obama really was not born in the U.S.? What are the consequences?

    The same if Bush had been born in Canada and not allegedly in CT. However this is a moot point. Obama was born in Hawaii. This has been confirmed by the Republican governor as well as other state officials. Just because you choose not to believe them is meaningless.

    But let’s play your game for a second. Can you provide us with one piece of legally admissible evidence that suggests a birth anywhere other than Hawaii? Can Scott Brown, aka Sally Hill provide even one example of someone receiving their so called long form BC from HI since 2006? Or better yet, can any birther provide ONE example of a person, not born in HI, receiving a COLB or BC stating that they were BORN in HI since it became a state? These questions have nothing to do with opinion but proof. Since we are a nation of laws, lets see some proof. Birthers like to scream about how easy it is to get a HI COLB and it was issued to anyone, so lets see one. Come on. HI has been in existence since 1959 as a state. That is 61 years. In that time if it was so easy you are telling me that the President was the only person that took advantage of that loophole? That defies common sense and logic. Instead of the truth that Obama was born in HI, you continually choose to believe in farfetched scenarios. Which is why sometimes brither posts are met with sarcasm and ridicule….

  48. avatar
    Sef August 30, 2010 at 2:16 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
    They somehow think that if Obama was removed from office magically all legislations, appointments, etc would be undone

    I think I would accept that reversal if the BP tragedy in the Gulf were also reversed.

  49. avatar
    Hulu August 30, 2010 at 2:17 pm #

    Sef: I have no problem accepting that, but all scenarios the birthers come up with allow them to cry fake. They will never believe anything.

    Many people have stated that they would consider a certified copy of the original vital record, released directly by the Hawaii DOH, to be considered reliable proof (if that proof demonstrates that Obama was born in Kapi’olani Hospital), but Obama has not done that.

    When proof is readily available, but withheld, you should expect the skeptics to be even more skeptical.

  50. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 2:21 pm #

    Hulu: Many people have stated that they would consider a certified copy of the original vital record, released directly by the Hawaii DOH, to be considered reliable proof (if that proof demonstrates that Obama was born in Kapi’olani Hospital), but Obama has not done that.When proof is readily available, but withheld, you should expect the skeptics to be even more skeptical.

    Conspiracy theorists always create more conspiracies as time goes along. I guess I’m skeptical that Bush Jr or Reagan or Bush Sr were born in the US as they failed to release their birth certificates during their term in office. Do you not think if the scanned COLB online was fake that the Republican Governor who tried to get McCain elected would have investigated it and had her Department of Health all over it? The fact also is that FactCheck held it in their hands, took photos of it others could have went at the time but chose not to.

  51. avatar
    Black Lion August 30, 2010 at 2:23 pm #

    Hulu: Many people have stated that they would consider a certified copy of the original vital record, released directly by the Hawaii DOH, to be considered reliable proof (if that proof demonstrates that Obama was born in Kapi’olani Hospital), but Obama has not done that.When proof is readily available, but withheld, you should expect the skeptics to be even more skeptical.

    Again you have made a claim that “proof is readily available but being withheld”, can you tell us what proof that Obama is supposedly withholding? Because may birthers have said that they would only accept the so called long form. And then many birthers have said that they would not accept anything because Obama’s father was not a citizen. And some have already set up the infamous 1960 era typewriter from Canada that Obama’s brownshirts have acquired which would allow them to forge any document from that era so they would not believe anything. So can you specify what “skeptics” you are referring to?

  52. avatar
    richCares August 30, 2010 at 2:23 pm #

    If you don’t like Obama, that’s fine with us, if you find and support a candidate to oppose him in 2012, that’s also fine, a respectable position. But this birther nonsense is silly, it makes your position very foolish. It has not been a successful position and continues to go nowhere. It just earns you ridicule.

    I am from Hawaii and I can’t get a long form, so take up the challenge and show us a long from of someone from Hawaii issued after 2001. I bet you won’t, what do you say. (chirping)

  53. avatar
    Sef August 30, 2010 at 2:25 pm #

    Hulu:
    Many people have stated that they would consider a certified copy of the original vital record, released directly by the Hawaii DOH, to be considered reliable proof (if that proof demonstrates that Obama was born in Kapi’olani Hospital), but Obama has not done that.When proof is readily available, but withheld, you should expect the skeptics to be even more skeptical.

    But “many people” & “skeptics” don’t matter. The only people who matter are the people charged with validating the eligibility, such as courts (potentially), state election officials, the electors in the Electoral College & Congress. All of them were satisfied with whatever was presented to them. See you in 2012.

  54. avatar
    misha August 30, 2010 at 2:32 pm #

    How Hitler did it:
    http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/08/how-hitler-did-it.html

  55. avatar
    Sef August 30, 2010 at 2:37 pm #

    misha: How Hitler did it:
    http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/08/how-hitler-did-it.html

    The difference between those 2 pics show why it will never work here. In the left pic everyone is in neat rows & columns, highly structured, whereas in the right pic the people are randomly distributed.

  56. avatar
    Majority Will August 30, 2010 at 2:38 pm #

    “Many people have stated that they would consider . . . ”

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ! ! ! ! ! (whew)

    That’s just precious.

    No one in a position of authority gives a rat’s patoot about meaningless, irrelevant, anecdotal, paranoid birther drivel.

  57. avatar
    AnotherBird August 30, 2010 at 2:40 pm #

    Hulu:
    Many people have stated that they would consider a certified copy of the original vital record, released directly by the Hawaii DOH, to be considered reliable proof (if that proof demonstrates that Obama was born in Kapi’olani Hospital), but Obama has not done that.

    When proof is readily available, but withheld, you should expect the skeptics to be even more skeptical.

    What hypocrisy.

    Hulu: translation …
    I wouldn’t accept the official confirmation and certifed document from the State of Hawaii. However, I would accept an official certified document as an official confirmation from the State of Hawaii.

    Hulu, you aren’t a skeptic. Skeptics always look at the big picture.

    So, the statement by the State of Hawaii Department of Health through the governor’s office isn’t sufficient proof. So, a COLB released directly by the Department of Health isn’t sufficient proof.

    A COLB is a certified copy of the vital records. Not all the information is included in the vital records may not be included, but that is what you wanted.

    You are not a skeptic, but a person making excuses.

  58. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 2:41 pm #

    Majority Will: “Many people have stated that they would consider . . . ”BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ! ! ! ! ! (whew)That’s just precious.No one in a position of authority gives a rat’s patoot about meaningless, irrelevant, anecdotal, paranoid birther drivel.

    They’re like toddlers who throw tantrums until their parents give in. However in this situation the parents aren’t giving in and so the toddlers just keep getting louder and more obnoxious

  59. avatar
    Hulu August 30, 2010 at 2:42 pm #

    Black Lion: Again you have made a claim that “proof is readily available but being withheld”, can you tell us what proof that Obama is supposedly withholding? Because may birthers have said that they would only accept the so called long form. And then many birthers have said that they would not accept anything because Obama’s father was not a citizen. And some have already set up the infamous 1960 era typewriter from Canada that Obama’s brownshirts have acquired which would allow them to forge any document from that era so they would not believe anything. So can you specify what “skeptics” you are referring to?

    I am relying on Fukino’s statement that she has seen the “original vital records”. In order to be the “original” it would have to be what most consider to be the long form.

    I have no problem accepting an affirmation of birth by a physician. I would, however, have a problem accepting an affirmation made by one of Obama’s relatives.

    The only question I expect to be resolved by having the DOH release the “original vital records” is that his birth was reported by a non-interested person, who was the employee of a hospital.

    As to the one or two citizen parent alleged requirement; that could only be settled in a court of law.

  60. avatar
    Greg August 30, 2010 at 2:45 pm #

    Hulu: Many people have stated that they would consider a certified copy of the original vital record

    52.9% of Americans were convinced that Obama was both eligible and the best candidate to be President. 45.7% of Americans thought McCain was eligible and the best candidate to be President.

    That’s the only poll that matters.

    Scott Brown: Why does everyone insist that Hawaii no longer issues long-form certificates?

    Because the DOH is on record telling a newspaper that they do not issue so-called long-form certificates.

    If I’m trying to prove what the state of Hawaii does or does not issue, I’ll take the word of the State of Hawaii versus your anecdote about what the state of Texas does.

    By the way, if you’re really from Texas, you can tell us where the saying, “Don’t Mess with Texas” comes from. Here’s a clue, it was coined in 1986. Can you tell us without googling it?

  61. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 2:47 pm #

    Hulu: I am relying on Fukino’s statement that she has seen the “original vital records”. In order to be the “original” it would have to be what most consider to be the long form.I have no problem accepting an affirmation of birth by a physician. I would, however, have a problem accepting an affirmation made by one of Obama’s relatives.The only question I expect to be resolved by having the DOH release the “original vital records” is that his birth was reported by a non-interested person, who was the employee of a hospital.As to the one or two citizen parent alleged requirement; that could only be settled in a court of law.

    No nothing would appease you. Fukino said she verified the original records and that everything was in order and that he was born in Hawaii. That’s all you really need to know the doctor doesn’t matter. You had a state official saying he was born in Hawaii.

    The two citizen parent mumbo jumbo has already been settled in court. You only have to be born on US soil.

  62. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 2:48 pm #

    Greg: 52.9% of Americans were convinced that Obama was both eligible and the best candidate to be President. 45.7% of Americans thought McCain was eligible and the best candidate to be President. That’s the only poll that matters. Because the DOH is on record telling a newspaper that they do not issue so-called long-form certificates. If I’m trying to prove what the state of Hawaii does or does not issue, I’ll take the word of the State of Hawaii versus your anecdote about what the state of Texas does. By the way, if you’re really from Texas, you can tell us where the saying, “Don’t Mess with Texas” comes from. Here’s a clue, it was coined in 1986. Can you tell us without googling it?

    I’m not even from Texas and I know that. It has nothing to do with what most people think it does

  63. avatar
    Sef August 30, 2010 at 2:51 pm #

    Greg: By the way, if you’re really from Texas, you can tell us where the saying, “Don’t Mess with Texas” comes from.

    Along that line has anyone commented on the state of the Mall after Beck’s festivities this past weekend before the Park Service arrived?

  64. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 2:53 pm #

    Sef: Along that line has anyone commented on the state of the Mall after Beck’s festivities this past weekend before the Park Service arrived?

    You mean all 87,000 of them? Wow Beck is really a tour de force.

  65. avatar
    Greg August 30, 2010 at 2:53 pm #

    Hulu: In order to be the “original” it would have to be what most consider to be the long form.

    Actually, what the hospital files and the “long form” are different things. The paperwork the hospital files has more information than is generated on any birth certificate.

    For example, have you seen any long form that tells the APGAR score of the infant?

    Hulu: I have no problem accepting an affirmation of birth by a physician. I would, however, have a problem accepting an affirmation made by one of Obama’s relatives.

    Let’s play pretend for a second.

    If the DOH releases their records, and they show that a family member affirmed the birth, does that create any new evidence that Obama was born somewhere else?

    No.

    The records say that he was born in Hawaii, and they have the same evidentiary value in a court of law regardless of who affirmed the birth.

    You are still in the same boat – you have zero admissible evidence that Obama was not born in Hawaii.

    Basically, the only way you get within spitting distance of court is if you rewrite all the rules of evidence.

  66. avatar
    Hulu August 30, 2010 at 2:54 pm #

    Greg: 52.9% of Americans were convinced that Obama was both eligible and the best candidate to be President. 45.7% of Americans thought McCain was eligible and the best candidate to be President.

    Greg,

    I have a hard time believing that you are as ignorant as the information you attempt to present. I doubt that half of those who voted for Obama could have cited the constitutionally mandated qualifications, let alone made a concious determination that he met the qualifications.

    Prior to the election, what percentage of voters do you think ever heard of Wong Kim Ark, or Minor v Happersett? In addition, when did the MSM present any information that would cause the voters to consider the question?

  67. avatar
    Majority Will August 30, 2010 at 2:54 pm #

    ” . . . is that his birth was reported by a non-interested person, who was the employee of a hospital.”

    The overwhelming majority of U.S. Presidents all the way up to Carter were not born in a hospital. Some of them had midwives or relatives assist with the delivery with no physician present.

    Birther FAIL.

  68. avatar
    misha August 30, 2010 at 2:56 pm #

    Sef: In the left pic everyone is in neat rows & columns, highly structured, whereas in the right pic the people are randomly distributed.

    The photograph on the left was carefully staged by Leni Riefenstahl. There wasn’t any director for the DC rally photograph.

  69. avatar
    AnotherBird August 30, 2010 at 2:57 pm #

    Hulu:
    I am relying on Fukino’s statement that she has seen the “original vital records”. In order to be the “original” it would have to be what most consider to be the long form.

    I have no problem accepting an affirmation of birth by a physician. I would, however, have a problem accepting an affirmation made by one of Obama’s relatives.

    The only question I expect to be resolved by having the DOH release the “original vital records” is that his birth was reported by a non-interested person, who was the employee of a hospital. As to the one or two citizen parent alleged requirement; that could only be settled in a court of law.

    It is the state of Hawaii who determines who is eligible to have there birth added to their vital records. The birth was confirmed by the attending doctor when Obama was born. The issue of parentage has been settled by the courts. Absolutely nothing will satisfy you.

  70. avatar
    Rickey August 30, 2010 at 2:58 pm #

    Hulu:
    I have no problem accepting an affirmation of birth by a physician. I would, however, have a problem accepting an affirmation made by one of Obama’s relatives.The only question I expect to be resolved by having the DOH release the “original vital records” is that his birth was reported by a non-interested person, who was the employee of a hospital.

    It doesn’t matter if Hawaii accepted the birth report from the hospital, a midwife or a cab driver. The State of Hawaii was satisfied that Obama was born in Honolulu. If you want to disprove that, find admissible evidence that he was born somewhere else. This has been going on for two years, and you birthers have come up with nothing.

    As to the one or two citizen parent alleged requirement; that could only be settled in a court of law.

    That has already been settled by at least two courts of law. See United States v. Wong Kim Ark and Ankeny v. Governor of the State of Indiana.

  71. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 2:59 pm #

    Hulu: Greg,I have a hard time believing that you are as ignorant as the information you attempt to present. I doubt that half of those who voted for Obama could have cited the constitutionally mandated qualifications, let alone made a concious determination that he met the qualifications.Prior to the election, what percentage of voters do you think ever heard of Wong Kim Ark, or Minor v Happersett? In addition, when did the MSM present any information that would cause the voters to consider the question?

    Yeah and how many of the voters knew that Ronald Reagan had a birth certificate that was signed and “accepted” decades after his birth. At least with Obama you had more information about him through his books, the COLB, his online campaign than any previous president released to the public in recent memory

  72. avatar
    Black Lion August 30, 2010 at 2:59 pm #

    Hulu: I am relying on Fukino’s statement that she has seen the “original vital records”. In order to be the “original” it would have to be what most consider to be the long form.I have no problem accepting an affirmation of birth by a physician. I would, however, have a problem accepting an affirmation made by one of Obama’s relatives.The only question I expect to be resolved by having the DOH release the “original vital records” is that his birth was reported by a non-interested person, who was the employee of a hospital.As to the one or two citizen parent alleged requirement; that could only be settled in a court of law.

    You do realize that if it doesn’t matter who made the affirmation, right? If it happened to have been made by Obama’s parents, then it would still be the same as if he was born in a hospital. He would have been according to the state of HI born there. The burden of proof would be for you again to find some admissible evidence that he was born somewhere other than HI. That is why your response is disingenous at best. Because you would be implying that somehow his family and the HI DOH would be complicit in some sort of fraud without any evidence to support that theory. Remember you need proof to make an accusation, that is why people are innocent until proven guilty.

  73. avatar
    Greg August 30, 2010 at 3:11 pm #

    Hulu: I have a hard time believing that you are as ignorant as the information you attempt to present.

    Face facts, Hulu, you are never going to get into a courtroom. You are never going to be able to present your so-called “facts” to a judge or jury.

    You have to convince 51% of voters that Obama is ineligible. You will have your opportunity to do so in 2012. I don’t think you’re going to be able to do so.

    By the way, if Obama’s father’s nationality was an issue, why didn’t any birther mention it in 2004 when Obama told the nation at the DNC that his father was a Kenyan? Why did it take until October 2008 to manufacture the two-citizen parent theory?

  74. avatar
    Hulu August 30, 2010 at 3:11 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Fukino said she verified the original records and that everything was in order and that he was born in Hawaii.

    I have oftened wondered why the Obots hang out here. It must be to disseminate false information. If your intent was to promote an honest exchange, you would not have made false allegations regarding Fukino’s statement(s).

  75. avatar
    Greg August 30, 2010 at 3:13 pm #

    Hulu: If your intent was to promote an honest exchange, you would not have made false allegations regarding Fukino’s statement(s).

    I’ll get the popcorn. This will be good.

    What do you think Fukino said?

  76. avatar
    Hulu August 30, 2010 at 3:17 pm #

    Greg: By the way, if Obama’s father’s nationality was an issue, why didn’t any birther mention it in 2004 when Obama told the nation at the DNC that his father was a Kenyan? Why did it take until October 2008 to manufacture the two-citizen parent theory?

    Do you even think about what you say? Do you think I watched the 2004 DNC? Do you think it would have made any difference to me that his father was a Kenyan? Hell, for him to be Senator, that doesn’t make any difference. Until somebody wins the primary, who in the opposition is going to spend their time researching the candidate?

    It is painfully evident that you want to change the subject from demonstrating proof that Obama’s birth was filed by a non-interested party to that of the definition of NBC. Why is that?

  77. avatar
    Scientist August 30, 2010 at 3:18 pm #

    Hulu: I have no problem accepting an affirmation of birth by a physician.

    I was PERSONALLY present at Obama’s birth at Kapi’olani Medical center in Honolulu. i am not a relative of Obama’s. Are you going to call me a liar? Answer carefully, becuase there are many attorneys here.

  78. avatar
    Black Lion August 30, 2010 at 3:19 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): You mean all 87,000 of them? Wow Beck is really a tour de force.

    Yes all 87,000…However some of the Beck supporters are claiming that it was a as much as 4 times that number….Remember even FOX reported it as in the thousands and not the hundred of thousands….So in other words we are taling about less that 1% of the population of the US….or less that take the LIRR commuter railroad on any given day….Impressive….

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20014993-503544.html

    “An estimated 87,000 people attended a rally organized by talk-radio host and Fox News commentator Glenn Beck Saturday in Washington, according to a crowd estimate commissioned by CBS News.

    Beck, who predicted that at least 100,000 people would show up, opened his comments with a joke: “I have just gotten word from the media that there is over 1,000 people here today.”

    Or from Think progress…

    http://thinkprogress.org/2010/08/29/wallace-beck-credibility/

    “Today on Fox News Sunday, host Chris Wallace waded into Beck’s psyche to try to clarify Beck’s true beliefs. Noting Beck’s claim that “divine providence” allowed him to reclaim the civil rights movement from “racial politics,” Wallace asked Beck about his previous declaration that President Obama was racist and wondered if he has any credibility “reclaiming the civil rights movement” because of that statement:

    Beck later said he regretted calling Obama a racist and that the real problem with the President is his alleged belief in “liberation theology.” When Wallace then noted that Beck called President Obama’s faith “a perversion of the gospel of Jesus Christ,” and wondered who made him “the God Squad,” Beck called the President “demonic”:

    Though Beck has indulged in tying President Obama to the Lucifer before, he insists he’s not a member of the “God Squad.” Noting that Beck is also not a “newsman,” “preacher,” or “politician,” Wallace finally asks Beck, “What are you?” In response, Beck offered a rambling response, calling himself a “concerned citizen” who “didn’t know his butt from his elbow” 15 years ago, and now “wants to figure out what the real truth is and inconsistencies bother me.”

    http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201008290003

    “Confronted with fact that King’s march had economic agenda, Beck replies: “That’s a part of it that I don’t agree with”

  79. avatar
    Greg August 30, 2010 at 3:23 pm #

    Fukino said she verified the original records…

    “I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Director of the Hawai’i State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen. I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October 2008 over eight months ago.”

    Press release July 27, 2009

    and that everything was in order…

    Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawaii, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

    “No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawaii.

    Press Release Oct. 31, 2008

    and that he was born in Hawaii.

    “I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Director of the Hawai’i State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen. I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October 2008 over eight months ago.”

    Press release July 27, 2009

    They not only HAVE Obama’s birth records, not only do those records CONFIRM that Obama was born in Hawaii, but those records are being kept in accordance with state policies and procedures.

    If the records are not in order, how are they being kept “in accordance with state policies and procedures?”

  80. avatar
    Hulu August 30, 2010 at 3:26 pm #

    Greg,

    What portion of the original vital records “confirms” that Obama was born in Hawaii?

    How would that be different from a birth report that was made fraudulently?

  81. avatar
    Greg August 30, 2010 at 3:29 pm #

    Hulu: Until somebody wins the primary, who in the opposition is going to spend their time researching the candidate?

    He won the primary LONG before birthers first manufactured the two-citizen parent theory (out of whole cloth).

    I

    Hulu: It is painfully evident that you want to change the subject from demonstrating proof that Obama’s birth was filed by a non-interested party to that of the definition of NBC. Why is that?

    I’m still waiting for YOU to answer MY questions about the non-interested party nonsense. In response to my questions about the non-interested party theory, you mentioned Minor v. Happersett and Wong Kim Ark.

    What do you think those cases have to do with interested/disinterested affirmants on Vital Records?

    Did you miss my questions?

    Let’s play pretend for a second.

    If the DOH releases their records, and they show that a family member affirmed the birth, does that create any new evidence that Obama was born somewhere else?

    No.

    The records say that he was born in Hawaii, and they have the same evidentiary value in a court of law regardless of who affirmed the birth.

    You are still in the same boat – you have zero admissible evidence that Obama was not born in Hawaii.

    Basically, the only way you get within spitting distance of court is if you rewrite all the rules of evidence.

    Take a gander at the Federal Rules of Evidence, Hulu. Vital records from the state are self-authenticating and come into evidence as an exception to the hearsay rule. Those are true regardless of who affirms the information contained therein. What evidence do you have that could actually get into court that suggests Obama was born anywhere other than Hawaii?

  82. avatar
    Hulu August 30, 2010 at 3:29 pm #

    My doctor’s office has many records that are kept IAW state and federal laws. The fact that records are kept IAW policy, procedure, or law does nothing to support the veracity of the record itself.

  83. avatar
    Scientist August 30, 2010 at 3:29 pm #

    Hulu: How would that be different from a birth report that was made fraudulently?

    The birth report was NOT made fraudulently. I know this for a FACT. You can’t ignore FACTS. Barack Obama was born in Hawaii. I saw it with my own eyes. You didn’t, but I did.

  84. avatar
    Rickey August 30, 2010 at 3:30 pm #

    Hulu:
    Do you even think about what you say? Do you think I watched the 2004 DNC? Do you think it would have made any difference to me that his father was a Kenyan? Hell, for him to be Senator, that doesn’t make any difference. Until somebody wins the primary, who in the opposition is going to spend their time researching the candidate?

    Do you think about what you say?

    Obama announced his candidacy for President on February 20, 2007. By that time he had not only given his speech at the 2004 DNC, he had also written two best-selling books which repeatedly emphasized that his father was a Kenyan.

    He repeated that fact in his acceptance speech at the 2008 DNC:

    “Four years ago, I stood before you and told you my story, of the brief union between a young man from Kenya and a young woman from Kansas who weren’t well-off or well-known, but shared a belief that in America their son could achieve whatever he put his mind to.”

    And now you want us to believe that nobody made an issue during the campaign about his father being a Kenyan because people weren’t aware of it?

    Nobody made an issue of it because it is a non-issue.

  85. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 3:30 pm #

    Hulu: I have oftened wondered why the Obots hang out here. It must be to disseminate false information. If your intent was to promote an honest exchange, you would not have made false allegations regarding Fukino’s statement(s).

    Because I actually have a genuine interest in citizenship law and statutes of our country as opposed to the fearmongering you birthers do. Why is it you guys come out from your safe moderated blogs and then when challenged disappear for a while only to come back and promote the same discredited BS? I didn’t make any false allegations. Fukino confirmed Obama was born in Hawaii according to the records she has seen.

  86. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 3:32 pm #

    Hulu: Do you even think about what you say? Do you think I watched the 2004 DNC? Do you think it would have made any difference to me that his father was a Kenyan? Hell, for him to be Senator, that doesn’t make any difference. Until somebody wins the primary, who in the opposition is going to spend their time researching the candidate?It is painfully evident that you want to change the subject from demonstrating proof that Obama’s birth was filed by a non-interested party to that of the definition of NBC. Why is that?

    Alan Keyes was his opponent in the 2004 Senate election. Don’t you think Keyes knowing in 2004 that Obama’s father was Kenyan would have come to Hillary in 2007 and McCain in 2008 saying that Obama wasn’t elligible because of his father not being a citizen? Keyes had plenty of opportunity and only made this rule up after the fact.

  87. avatar
    Black Lion August 30, 2010 at 3:32 pm #

    Hulu: I have oftened wondered why the Obots hang out here. It must be to disseminate false information. If your intent was to promote an honest exchange, you would not have made false allegations regarding Fukino’s statement(s).

    Again you made a statement without factual support. What false allegations were made? The only people that make allegations against Dr. Fukino are birthers who accusing her of lying when she states that she has seen the President’s vital records and HE WAS BORN IN HAWAII…..However birthers have twisted that simple statement to mean everything other than what it means, that President Obama was born in Hawaii.

    Secondly we do hang out at Doc’s site to dismantle the foolish so called birther theories….So far the ones that have been dismantled are:

    -A travel ban to Pakistan for Americans.
    -Someone could get a COLB from HI that states they were born in HI if they were born elsewhere
    -Obama’s grandmother could have registered his birth
    -that someone could get their so called “long form BC” from the state of HI after 2001
    -Obama was adopted by Lolo
    -Obama lost his US citizenship

    How about you tell us what “proof” you have that Obama was not born in HI so that it could be dismantled also….

  88. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 3:33 pm #

    Black Lion: Yes all 87,000…However some of the Beck supporters are claiming that it was a as much as 4 times that number….Remember even FOX reported it as in the thousands and not the hundred of thousands….So in other words we are taling about less that 1% of the population of the US….or less that take the LIRR commuter railroad on any given day….Impressive….http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20014993-503544.html“An estimated 87,000 people attended a rally organized by talk-radio host and Fox News commentator Glenn Beck Saturday in Washington, according to a crowd estimate commissioned by CBS News.Beck, who predicted that at least 100,000 people would show up, opened his comments with a joke: “I have just gotten word from the media that there is over 1,000 people here today.”Or from Think progress…http://thinkprogress.org/2010/08/29/wallace-beck-credibility/“Today on Fox News Sunday, host Chris Wallace waded into Beck’s psyche to try to clarify Beck’s true beliefs. Noting Beck’s claim that “divine providence” allowed him to reclaim the civil rights movement from “racial politics,” Wallace asked Beck about his previous declaration that President Obama was racist and wondered if he has any credibility “reclaiming the civil rights movement” because of that statement:Beck later said he regretted calling Obama a racist and that the real problem with the President is his alleged belief in “liberation theology.” When Wallace then noted that Beck called President Obama’s faith “a perversion of the gospel of Jesus Christ,” and wondered who made him “the God Squad,” Beck called the President “demonic”: Though Beck has indulged in tying President Obama to the Lucifer before, he insists he’s not a member of the “God Squad.” Noting that Beck is also not a “newsman,” “preacher,” or “politician,” Wallace finally asks Beck, “What are you?” In response, Beck offered a rambling response, calling himself a “concerned citizen” who “didn’t know his butt from his elbow” 15 years ago, and now “wants to figure out what the real truth is and inconsistencies bother me.”http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201008290003“Confronted with fact that King’s march had economic agenda, Beck replies: “That’s a part of it that I don’t agree with”

    Well they often inflate their numbers just like the birthers. Remember the 9/12 march that gathered about 100,000 people or so and they were claiming 2 million? Bachmann was claiming a million for the beck march

  89. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 3:35 pm #

    Hulu: Greg,What portion of the original vital records “confirms” that Obama was born in Hawaii?How would that be different from a birth report that was made fraudulently?

    The proof is on you to show that the birth report was made fraudulently. Do you have any proof of this?

  90. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 3:35 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): The onus is on you to show that the birth report was made fraudulently. Do you have any proof of this?

  91. avatar
    Greg August 30, 2010 at 3:35 pm #

    Hulu: What portion of the original vital records “confirms” that Obama was born in Hawaii?

    How would that be different from a birth report that was made fraudulently?

    I would imagine the birth records confirm that Obama was born in Hawaii.

    If you have evidence of fraud, go ahead and present it!

    Let’s say that I’m challenging the paternity of Child X. Mr. and Mrs. X come into court and present the vital records they obtained long ago, which says: 1) X was the child of Mr. X; and 2) the vital record was affirmed by Mrs. X.

    Do you think that helps my paternity challenge? If I have no other evidence?

    With just that information, how do I prove the vital record was fraudulent? Is there any rule of evidence that disallows the introduction of the vital record?

  92. avatar
    Hulu August 30, 2010 at 3:36 pm #

    Greg: Let’s play pretend for a second.
    If the DOH releases their records, and they show that a family member affirmed the birth, does that create any new evidence that Obama was born somewhere else?
    No.
    The records say that he was born in Hawaii, and they have the same evidentiary value in a court of law regardless of who affirmed the birth.
    You are still in the same boat – you have zero admissible evidence that Obama was not born in Hawaii.
    Basically, the only way you get within spitting distance of court is if you rewrite all the rules of evidence.

    If Obama’s birth was reported by a family member, it (according to Dr. Conspiracy) would not be legal. Dr. Conspiracy has stated that a family member could not have filed the report. According to Dr. Conspiracy, only the parent could have filed a report of home birth.

    Are you now going to tell me that a birth report that was illegally filed would be considered reliable evidence to support his birth? Which is it?

  93. avatar
    jamese777 August 30, 2010 at 3:39 pm #

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1961_Hawaii_Certificate_Of_Live_Birth.jpg

    Above is a link to a jpeg of a 1961 Hawaii long form Certificate of Live Birth. Can anybody tell me what information on the long form is relevant to being eligible to be president of the United States under Article 2, Section 1 of the Constitution that isn’t also available on a certified copy of a Hawaii Certification of Live Birth (short form)?

  94. avatar
    Greg August 30, 2010 at 3:39 pm #

    Hulu: My doctor’s office has many records that are kept IAW state and federal laws. The fact that records are kept IAW policy, procedure, or law does nothing to support the veracity of the record itself.

    You said that this statement was false:

    Fukino said she verified the original records and that everything was in order and that he was born in Hawaii.

    I showed how each and every part of the statement was supported by what Fukino said in her two press releases.

    Tell us how that statement is false, and please support it with quotes from Fukino’s press releases.

  95. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 3:42 pm #

    Hulu: If Obama’s birth was reported by a family member, it (according to Dr. Conspiracy) would not be legal. Dr. Conspiracy has stated that a family member could not have filed the report. According to Dr. Conspiracy, only the parent could have filed a report of home birth.Are you now going to tell me that a birth report that was illegally filed would be considered reliable evidence to support his birth? Which is it?

    Incorrect now you’re misstating what Dr. Conspiracy actually said. He did not say that a birth reported by a family member would not be legal. But once again you’re going off IFs and theories. What proof do you have that the birth report was fraudulent? What proof do you have that it was filed by another family member?

  96. avatar
    Scientist August 30, 2010 at 3:42 pm #

    Hulu: Are you now going to tell me that a birth report that was illegally filed would be considered reliable evidence to support his birth?

    Yes. unless some other record contradicts it. Is there one?

  97. avatar
    Hulu August 30, 2010 at 3:43 pm #

    What we have here is a situation in which fraud is perpetuated.

    What do you think the State Department does if a birth certificate is presented and they feel there is something fishy about the birth certificate? Do you really believe it would be a case of “too bad, it says prima facie on the document”?

    Any document should be able to be verified by the issuing authority.

  98. avatar
    Scientist August 30, 2010 at 3:45 pm #

    Since Barack Obama was born in Hawaii, any record affirming that fact is true and any record saying otherwise would be fraudulent (actually, there aren’t any). Hulu obviously slept through logic 101.

  99. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 3:45 pm #

    Hulu: What we have here is a situation in which fraud is perpetuated.What do you think the State Department does if a birth certificate is presented and they feel there is something fishy about the birth certificate? Do you really believe it would be a case of “too bad, it says prima facie on the document”?Any document should be able to be verified by the issuing authority.

    And it was verified by the issuing authority. So now all you have is your guesses based on nothing. You have no proof that anything is “fishy” or fraudulent otherwise you would have presented it by now.

  100. avatar
    JoZeppy August 30, 2010 at 3:46 pm #

    Hulu: I have no problem accepting an affirmation of birth by a physician. I would, however, have a problem accepting an affirmation made by one of Obama’s relatives.

    You do realize whether or not you have a problem accepting something doesn’t amount to a hill of beans. You don’t make the rules. The State of Hawaii already accepted whatever is on file. That is good enough for the law. Good enough for the Constitution. You don’t get to pick and choose what parts of the laws of the states or the Constution of the US you like, and what ones you feel you can ignore. Under the Constitution and law of the US, Obama has already established is eligiblity to be President. Get over it, and stop acting like a petulant child.

  101. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 3:46 pm #

    Scientist: Since Barack Obama was born in Hawaii, any record affirming that fact is true and any record saying otherwise would be fraudulent (actually, there aren’t any). Hulu obviously slept through logic 101.

    Obviously the lifeguard was off duty in the gene pool the day Hulu fraudulent birth report was filed.

  102. avatar
    Hulu August 30, 2010 at 3:47 pm #

    Greg: You said that this statement was false:
    Fukino said she verified the original records and that everything was in order and that he was born in Hawaii.
    I showed how each and every part of the statement was supported by what Fukino said in her two press releases.

    Verifying that they have the records and verifying the records themselves are two different things. Just like keeping them IAW state laws is not the same as verify that everything on the record is in order.

  103. avatar
    Greg August 30, 2010 at 3:47 pm #

    Hulu: If Obama’s birth was reported by a family member, it (according to Dr. Conspiracy) would not be legal.

    Compare and contrast:

    Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawaii, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

    If the birth certificate is illegal, is it “in accordance with state policies and procedures?”

    There are dozens of cases about the introduction of vital records into evidence, Hulu. Please find me one that shows a familial signature invalidates the vital record for evidence purposes.

    While you’re looking for that, take a look at the Federal Rules of Evidence – see, especially, the hearsay exceptions, Hulu. There are at least 4 different rules that allows evidence in of Obama’s birth in Hawaii, evidence above and beyond the COLB. What do you think you can present that shows Obama was born elsewhere?

  104. avatar
    Scientist August 30, 2010 at 3:47 pm #

    Hulu: What do you think the State Department does if a birth certificate is presented and they feel there is something fishy about the birth certificate?

    But the State Dept issued Obama a passport, so obviously they didn’t have any problem with his papers. Not just as President, by the way, but as a Senator and as a private citizen.

  105. avatar
    jamese777 August 30, 2010 at 3:48 pm #

    Scott Brown: The misinformation that gets slung around this blog is atrocious!Why does everyone insist that Hawaii no longer issues long-form certificates? Skirting or stretching the truth does not help your argument. In my opinion, it speaks to your insecurities regarding the subject.My state, which is Texas (although most ppl here think I’m lying about that), no longer routinely’ issues long-forms – just like Hawaii. HOWEVER, that is NOT to say they no longer release long-forms – they just don’t do it routinely. You must verbally ask for and state a reason for needing the long-form, just as I did when it was required to obtain my passport, since the State Department refused to accept my short form.Please show me where the Constitution states that only place of birth and date of birth is required information for running for President. Where did you get your copy of the Constitution? Mine mentions NOTHING about place / date of birth. Again, you hurt your argument significantly when you rant on about fallacious issues.I will agree with jamese777 on one issue – yes, this controversy does work in Obama’s favor – presently. I have a feeling it will work against him in 2012, simply because many who DID vote for him in 2008, now question his eligibility and might change their vote if given the opportunity. We’ll just have to wait and see if they are even given the opportunity to do so.Dave, your post was both curious and humorous. I’d comment further, but I’m not sure if you were being /sarcastic or not.

    Can you provide any back up for the assertion that Hawaii still issues long form birth certificates to anybody for any reason? I had a $200 bet riding on anyone born in Hawaii being able to order a copy of a long form birth certificate since 2001. My bet was with committed birthers on the freerepublic.com conservative website. After eight weeks of waiting no one was able to order a long form and post it. The only possible exception that I know of are native, indigenous Hawaiians under the Hawaiian Homelands Act.
    It is my belief that if long forms were still available, someone, anyone would have posted a copy on the web by now just to embarrass Obama into ordering his copy.

  106. avatar
    JoZeppy August 30, 2010 at 3:49 pm #

    Hulu: What we have here is a situation in which fraud is perpetuated.What do you think the State Department does if a birth certificate is presented and they feel there is something fishy about the birth certificate? Do you really believe it would be a case of “too bad, it says prima facie on the document”?Any document should be able to be verified by the issuing authority.

    No. There is not even a hint of fruad. If the State Department has evidence of fraud, they go back to the state and follow up. If the state confrims the details, that’s the end of it. But here there isn’t even an iota of evidence of fraud. And on top of that, you have confirmation from the state government that the records are in order, and that President Obama was born in Hawaii. End of story. You have nothing.

  107. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 3:49 pm #

    Hulu: Verifying that they have the records and verifying the records themselves are two different things. Just like keeping them IAW state laws is not the same as verify that everything on the record is in order.

    You obviously have a problem with what the word verify means:

    verification   /ˌvɛrəfɪˈkeɪʃən/ Show Spelled[ver-uh-fi-key-shuhn] Show IPA
    –noun
    1. the act of verifying.
    2. the state of being verified.
    3. evidence that establishes or confirms the accuracy or truth of something: We could find no verification for his fantastic claims.
    4. a formal assertion of the truth of something, as by oath or affidavit.
    5. the process of research, examination, etc., required to prove or establish authenticity or validity.
    6. Law . a short confirmatory affidavit at the end of a pleading or petition.

    It isn’t just looking at the document to see if its there. It is actually examining it and establishing authenticity and validity. Again what proof do you have that Dr Fukino is lying?

  108. avatar
    Hulu August 30, 2010 at 3:50 pm #

    Scientist: Hulu: Are you now going to tell me that a birth report that was illegally filed would be considered reliable evidence to support his birth?
    Yes. unless some other record contradicts it. Is there one?

    Only someone who uses the name “scientist” would consider a report that was “illegally filed” to stand unless a contradictory record surfaced.

  109. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 3:52 pm #

    Hulu: Only someone who uses the name “scientist” would consider a report that was “illegally filed” to stand unless a contradictory record surfaced.

    Only an idiot would claim something is illegally filed without proof that it was illegally filed. Once again what is your proof hulu?

  110. avatar
    Greg August 30, 2010 at 3:52 pm #

    Hulu: What we have here is a situation in which fraud is perpetuated.

    Most emphatically no.

    What we have here is a situation in which cranks are alleging fraud exists with ZERO evidence of fraud!

    Hulu: Any document should be able to be verified by the issuing authority.

    I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Director of the Hawai’i State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen. I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October 2008 over eight months ago.

    If the State Department asked the Hawaii DOH to verify the information in the document, I think they’d take the word of the DOH instead of following unsupported allegations down the rabbit-hole!

  111. avatar
    misha August 30, 2010 at 3:53 pm #

    Hulu: there is something fishy about the birth certificate

    I completely agree with you: There certainly is something fishy about his BC.

  112. avatar
    jamese777 August 30, 2010 at 3:56 pm #

    Hulu: Only someone who uses the name “scientist” would consider a report that was “illegally filed” to stand unless a contradictory record surfaced.

    I’m trying to figure out a logical reason why a Republican Governor, a Republican state Attorney General and appointees of the Republican Governor, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Director of Health and Dr. Alvin T. Onaka, Registrar of Vital Statistics would all be covering for, lying for and risking their careers and potential lawsuits or jail terms on behalf of a Democratic President?
    Can you give me a logical explanation for their behavior?

  113. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 3:57 pm #

    jamese777: I’m trying to figure out a logical reason why a Republican Governor, a Republican state Attorney General and appointees of the Republican Governor, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Director of Health and Dr. Alvin T. Onaka, Registrar of Vital Statistics would all be covering for, lying for and risking their careers and potential lawsuits or jail terms on behalf of a Democratic President?Can you give me a logical explanation for their behavior?

    Two words: Porkchop Sandwiches

  114. avatar
    jamese777 August 30, 2010 at 3:58 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Two words: Porkchop Sandwiches

    In Hawaii,it would be SPAM sandwiches.

  115. avatar
    misha August 30, 2010 at 4:02 pm #

    jamese777: I’m trying to figure out a logical reason why a Republican Governor

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Two words: Porkchop Sandwiches

    Linda Lingle is Jewish. You should bite your tongue.

  116. avatar
    jamese777 August 30, 2010 at 4:03 pm #

    One more time, for the slow learning group:
    “It’s been an odd situation,” Governor Lingle said, referring to the continuing controversy over the disputed natural-born citizenship of Obama. “This issue kept coming up so much in the campaign, and again I think it’s one of those issues that is simply a distraction from the more critical issues that are facing the country.

    “So I had my health director, who is a physician by background, go personally view the birth certificate in the birth records of the Department of Health, and we issued a news release at that time saying that the president was, in fact, born at Kapi’olani Hospital in Honolulu, Hawaii. And that’s just a fact and yet people continue to call up and e-mail and want to make it an issue and I think it’s again a horrible distraction for the country by those people who continue this.” –Linda Lingle, Governor of Hawaii (R)

  117. avatar
    jamese777 August 30, 2010 at 4:05 pm #

    misha: Linda Lingle is Jewish. You should bite your tongue.

    Ah, but is she Reform? 😉

  118. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 4:06 pm #

    misha: Linda Lingle is Jewish. You should bite your tongue.

    Yeah but there was a whole bunch of other people included in that list

  119. avatar
    Sef August 30, 2010 at 4:08 pm #

    jamese777:
    Ah, but is she Reform?

    So who nailed the theses to the temple door?

  120. avatar
    Majority Will August 30, 2010 at 4:08 pm #

    Hulu: What we have here is a situation in which fraud is perpetuated.What do you think the State Department does if a birth certificate is presented and they feel there is something fishy about the birth certificate? Do you really believe it would be a case of “too bad, it says prima facie on the document”?Any document should be able to be verified by the issuing authority.

    Prove it or STFU. Paranoid, delusional birther.

  121. avatar
    Hulu August 30, 2010 at 4:11 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): You obviously have a problem with what the word verify means:verification   /ˌvɛrəfɪˈkeɪʃən/ Show Spelled[ver-uh-fi-key-shuhn] Show IPA–noun1. the act of verifying.2. the state of being verified.3. evidence that establishes or confirms the accuracy or truth of something: We could find no verification for his fantastic claims.4. a formal assertion of the truth of something, as by oath or affidavit.5. the process of research, examination, etc., required to prove or establish authenticity or validity.6. Law . a short confirmatory affidavit at the end of a pleading or petition. It isn’t just looking at the document to see if its there. It is actually examining it and establishing authenticity and validity. Again what proof do you have that Dr Fukino is lying?

    Noisewater,

    Maybe it would help if you used the words in context. Dr. Fukino did not say that she “vefified the records”. She said she verified that they have the records, and those records verify that Obama was born. A fraudulent birth report would be supported by the same statements.

  122. avatar
    jamese777 August 30, 2010 at 4:11 pm #

    Hulu: Only someone who uses the name “scientist” would consider a report that was “illegally filed” to stand unless a contradictory record surfaced.

    Aren’t you forgetting that Barack Hussein Obama II’s “report” has been standing since August 4, 1961? He announced his candidacy in February of 2007 and he is the duly elected 44th President of the United States, and no court of law nor congressional inquiry has successfully challenged his eligibility under that “record.”

  123. avatar
    Majority Will August 30, 2010 at 4:11 pm #

    Hulu:
    Only someone who uses the name “scientist” would consider a report that was “illegally filed” to stand unless a contradictory record surfaced.

    Your lack of understanding of the U.S. legal system is laughable and all too predictable.

  124. avatar
    Majority Will August 30, 2010 at 4:14 pm #

    Hulu:
    Noisewater,Maybe it would help if you used the words in context. Dr. Fukino did not say that she “vefified the records”. She said she verified that they have the records, and those records verify that Obama was born. A fraudulent birth report would be supported by the same statements.

    And yet your proof of fraud is nothing more than paranoid, unsubstantiated rambling of zero consequence in the real world. I’ll choose to respect the legal authority of the state of Hawaii over a mouth breathing birther with more spare time than common sense.

  125. avatar
    jamese777 August 30, 2010 at 4:16 pm #

    Hulu: Noisewater,Maybe it would help if you used the words in context. Dr. Fukino did not say that she “vefified the records”. She said she verified that they have the records, and those records verify that Obama was born. A fraudulent birth report would be supported by the same statements.

    I have trouble believing that you are really as ignorant as you are trying to appear. You’re just playing dumb for the sake of argument, right?
    I know that you are fully capable of reading and comprehending Dr. Fukino’s words: “…verifying Barack Hussein Obama was BORN IN HAWAI’I AND IS A NATURAL BORN AMERICAN CITIZEN.”
    Please stop pretending to be stupid and debate these issues straight up.

  126. avatar
    Hulu August 30, 2010 at 4:18 pm #

    jamese777,

    These two statements you made were enough to tell me that you had no interest in the truth:

    “1) The state of Hawaii no longer releases long forms since 2001 and if Obama released a copy under his own initiative, no birther would accept it as a genuine document because it was released by Obama. However it is very telling that the original document could be released under a subpoena and no birther has yet sought a subpoena for that document. That fact alone says to me that birtherism is not a serious issue.
    2) The Certification of Live Birth (COLB) that has been shown has been authenticated as genuine by the state of Hawaii by the Republican Governor, the Republican Attorney General, the Director of Health and the Registrar of Vital Statistics. That document contains the constitutionally required information, place of birth and date of birth.”

    Are you an idiot? Do you really believe that the State of Hawaii DOH can refuse to permit you to view and copy your original vital records? Even though a statute requires them to permit you to?

    No one in Hawaii has ever authenticated the COLB. Got that? NO ONE!

  127. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 4:18 pm #

    Hulu: Noisewater,Maybe it would help if you used the words in context. Dr. Fukino did not say that she “vefified the records”. She said she verified that they have the records, and those records verify that Obama was born. A fraudulent birth report would be supported by the same statements.

    Umm she said that she saw them and that the records verify that Obama was born in Hawaii. Spin that any way you like but the fact remains that you have nothing to back up your statements. What proof do you have that the birth report is fraudulent? Answer the question already.

  128. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 4:22 pm #

    Hulu: jamese777,These two statements you made were enough to tell me that you had no interest in the truth:“1) The state of Hawaii no longer releases long forms since 2001 and if Obama released a copy under his own initiative, no birther would accept it as a genuine document because it was released by Obama. However it is very telling that the original document could be released under a subpoena and no birther has yet sought a subpoena for that document. That fact alone says to me that birtherism is not a serious issue.2) The Certification of Live Birth (COLB) that has been shown has been authenticated as genuine by the state of Hawaii by the Republican Governor, the Republican Attorney General, the Director of Health and the Registrar of Vital Statistics. That document contains the constitutionally required information, place of birth and date of birth.”Are you an idiot? Do you really believe that the State of Hawaii DOH can refuse to permit you to view and copy your original vital records? Even though a statute requires them to permit you to?No one in Hawaii has ever authenticated the COLB. Got that? NO ONE!

    Good lord are you dumb or just one of Palin’s kids? The COLB is a copy of the original vital records. Answer you seem to miss the part where there’s a signature on the birth certificate by Alvin Onaka. The fact that Fukino has verified the certificate. Or how about that the DOH hasn’t pressed charges against Obama. Use your head already

  129. avatar
    Hulu August 30, 2010 at 4:23 pm #

    jamese777: I have trouble believing that you are really as ignorant as you are trying to appear. You’re just playing dumb for the sake of argument, right?I know that you are fully capable of reading and comprehending Dr. Fukino’s words: “…verifying Barack Hussein Obama was BORN IN HAWAI’I AND IS A NATURAL BORN AMERICAN CITIZEN.”Please stop pretending to be stupid and debate these issues straight up.

    Jamese,

    You can’t even tell us what Fukino relied on to determine that Obama is a “natural born American citizen! Can you? She never disclosed that information. Did she?

    Is the determination of natural born American citizen part of medical school education? Not according to any doctor I know. She must have got it from somewhere else. If you are going to consider her statement to be a reliable deduction, you should be able to provide us with the source she used to arrive at her conclusion.

  130. avatar
    Hulu August 30, 2010 at 4:25 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): The fact that Fukino has verified the certificate

    Show me where Fukino verified the signature, sport?

  131. avatar
    jamese777 August 30, 2010 at 4:25 pm #

    Hulu: jamese777,These two statements you made were enough to tell me that you had no interest in the truth:“1) The state of Hawaii no longer releases long forms since 2001 and if Obama released a copy under his own initiative, no birther would accept it as a genuine document because it was released by Obama. However it is very telling that the original document could be released under a subpoena and no birther has yet sought a subpoena for that document. That fact alone says to me that birtherism is not a serious issue.2) The Certification of Live Birth (COLB) that has been shown has been authenticated as genuine by the state of Hawaii by the Republican Governor, the Republican Attorney General, the Director of Health and the Registrar of Vital Statistics. That document contains the constitutionally required information, place of birth and date of birth.”Are you an idiot? Do you really believe that the State of Hawaii DOH can refuse to permit you to view and copy your original vital records? Even though a statute requires them to permit you to?No one in Hawaii has ever authenticated the COLB. Got that? NO ONE!

    “No one” except Dr. Chiyome Fukino. In her testimony before the Hawaii Senate Government Operations Committee on the Vexatious Requestor Bill, Dr. Fukino said the following, under oath: “For more than a year, the Department of Health has continued to receive approximately 50 e-mail inquiries a month seeking access to President Barack Obama’s birth certificate in spite of the fact that President Obama has posted a copy of the certificate on his former campaign website.”
    I submit that Dr. Chiyome Fukino IS in fact SOMEONE from Hawaii! 😉

  132. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 4:26 pm #

    Hulu: Jamese,You can’t even tell us what Fukino relied on to determine that Obama is a “natural born American citizen! Can you? She never disclosed that information. Did she?Is the determination of natural born American citizen part of medical school education? Not according to any doctor I know. She must have got it from somewhere else. If you are going to consider her statement to be a reliable deduction, you should be able to provide us with the source she used to arrive at her conclusion.

    The birth certificate as Fukino said. Anyone born on US Soil is a natural born citizen.

  133. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 4:26 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): The birth certificate as Fukino said. Anyone born on US Soil is a natural born citizen.

    Excluding children of foreign diplomats

  134. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 4:28 pm #

    Hulu: Show me where Fukino verified the signature, sport?

    She verified the Birth Certificate sport. Show me where the DOH filed charges against Obama. Show me proof that the birth report was fraudulent. Show proof that the COLB is fraudulent. Thus far you’ve presented nothing “sport”

  135. avatar
    Rickey August 30, 2010 at 4:28 pm #

    Hulu:

    What we have here is a situation in which fraud is perpetuated.

    Par for the course for birthers. A claim of fraud. Evidence of fraud, non-existent.

    What do you think the State Department does if a birth certificate is presented and they feel there is something fishy about the birth certificate? Do you really believe it would be a case of “too bad, it says prima facie on the document”?Any document should be able to be verified by the issuing authority.

    If the State Department believes that a birth certificate might be fraudulent, they can go back to the issuing authority and verify it.

    The State Department obviously has had no such concerns about Obama’s birth certificate, because he has been issued a U.S. passport.

  136. avatar
    Majority Will August 30, 2010 at 4:29 pm #

    Hulu: More birther troll stupidity and deranged drivel.

    State Registrar and Chief of the Office of Health Status Monitoring of the Hawaii Department of Health.
    Alvin T. Onaka, Ph.D.

    Office of the Director of Health
    Director: Chiyome Fukino, M.D.
    The Director is the chief health and environmental official for the state. She oversees the operations of the entire department and sits on a number of key boards and committees.

    “State declares Obama birth certificate genuine
    The Associated Press

    Fri, Oct 31, 2008 (4:18 p.m.)

    State officials say there’s no doubt Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.

    Health Department Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said Friday she and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have personally verified that the health department holds Obama’s original birth certificate.

    Fukino says that no state official, including Republican Gov. Linda Lingle, ever instructed that Obama’s certificate be handled differently.

  137. avatar
    Black Lion August 30, 2010 at 4:33 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Umm she said that she saw them and that the records verify that Obama was born in Hawaii. Spin that any way you like but the fact remains that you have nothing to back up your statements. What proof do you have that the birth report is fraudulent? Answer the question already.

    Hulu is playing the birther card word game perfected by NC1. Which is never address question they cannot answer. First of all Hulu CANNOT supply even one iota of evidence which supports the claim of fraud. His argument is that there is a possibly that it could be fraud. So what? There is a possibility that anyone’s birth information could be fraudulent. Instead of providing evidence to support his claim like a rational person, he persists to just keep repeating prove it is not fraudulent. Missing out on the entire fact that the responsibility is on the person making the claim.
    Secondly Hulu cannot provide even one example of a fraudulent birth record for the state of HI. Yet he makes the wild accusation that Obama’s must be fraudulent because he says so. Amazing. And when you remind him that no other President has ever shown a BC or COLB to the public, nor does the US Constitution require one, they ignore this fact and keep repeating the same line…”Baiscally I know it is fraudulent because some little green guys from a spaceship gave me a red suit and told me Obama’s birth information was fraudulent….”

  138. avatar
    sfjeff August 30, 2010 at 4:34 pm #

    Oh Hulu- I really don’t expect you to reply to my responses, but I post this the same way I still make a wish when I blow out birthday candles.

    “I hope you didn’t come here looking for understand. All questions regarding Obama are met with ridicule”

    Not all questions, but sure, ridiculous questions often get ridiculed. Questions that are irrelevant and that have been answered hundreds of times before often get ridiculed. But I will try hard not to offend you. .

    “They don’t know who submitted Obama’s birth report. They won’t even acknowledge that the status of Obama’s parents provided a situation in which the likelihood of birth outside the U.S. was greatly increased. To them, it is not important.”

    And as I recall, you never explained how the status of Obama’s parents changed the likelihood of Obama being born outside the United States. Because mathematically it doesn’t. Here is my bet to you: I bet there are more children born of two American citizens outside the United States every year, than there are children born of a single Kenyan parent and a U.S. Citizen each year. Just a hunch on my part, but thats of course what you are acting on.

    “They will never acknowledge that an image on the internet, that was not published by the DOH, IS NOT prima facie evidence.”

    We have repeatedly acknowedged that that image is not the evidence- but the document used to make the image is. You will never acknowledge that.

    “What if Obama was not born in the U.S.? There is no “proof” that he was born in Hawaii. All we have is that someone filed a report.”

    Why do you lie about this? Not only is there proof- and yes the statements of Dr. Fukino could be used as evidence(i.e. proof), but without any doubt, the proof that has been presented is more complete than that presented by any other President. You are asking for an unprecidented degree of proof, when neither the law, nor the public required it.

    “The only reason Obama will not permit the source for his COLB to be released, and end the debate in the eyes of most, is that he knows the source would not be considered to be reliable. The logical conclusion is that it was filed by a relative.”

    That is purely speculative- let me put it further- it is a wild guess on your part. My speculation is that President Obama just doesn’t feel a need to humor you.

    “When you place national security in the hands of the “whatever makes us feel good” crowd, you should not expect any of them to be able to recognize the consequences.”

    Since when has respect for the law, and the principle of treating all people equally been considered “whatever makes us feel good”?

    “Loss of respect for human life.
    Illegal immigrants.
    Permit the government to disarm the citizens.
    Even distribution of wealth.”

    Oh lordy. You do realize that this is just a silly list. Illegal immigrants? You think this is a new situation? You probably don’t remember Reagan signing a bill to ‘solve’ illegal immigration do you?

    Respect for human life? I would say a blockade of a country that resulted in 100,000 children dieing due to lack of medicine perhaps a lack of respect for human lives. I am always amazed how ‘respect for human life’ only seems to relate to unborn not those who have already been born.

    And how many people have had their guns taken away from them under Obama? Remember this was a big talking point of conservatives right after he was elected- gun companies used that to sell thousands of guns prior to the inauguration. So have your guns been taken away yet?

    “These are all things promoted by the progressive/liberal crowd. What would that mean?”

    Actually that is a huge conservative smear, that you are promoting- why are making such a false statement?

    “What if Obama was not born in the U.S.?”

    Well, since he has been President for two years now, I would expect it would be very similar to exactly what it is today whether he was born in the U.S. or not.

    ” What are the consequences?”

    I am sure that Fox News would call for his impeachment, as would a number of other organizations. There are plenty of anti-Obama folks in Congress that would rush to start an investigation as a preliminary to trying to impeach him. Thats how our system would work.

    “Many people have stated that they would consider a certified copy of the original vital record, released directly by the Hawaii DOH, to be considered reliable proof (if that proof demonstrates that Obama was born in Kapi’olani Hospital), but Obama has not done that.”

    Nor should he. President Obama shouldn’t humor Birthers by providiing one more piece of evidence until he wants to. I suspect he will show more documentation to reporters prior to the 2012 election.

    “When proof is readily available, but withheld, you should expect the skeptics to be even more skeptical.”

    You haven’t even shown that the ‘proof’ you are asking for is available.

    “I am relying on Fukino’s statement that she has seen the “original vital records”. In order to be the “original” it would have to be what most consider to be the long form.”

    i agree with you. But just because Dr. Fukino has seen it, doesn’t mean that it is available upon request- it is an original document.

    “I have no problem accepting an affirmation of birth by a physician. I would, however, have a problem accepting an affirmation made by one of Obama’s relatives.”

    That is your right- but certainly not something I am concerned about, nor were the voters.

    “As to the one or two citizen parent alleged requirement; that could only be settled in a court of law.”

    The voters already spoke about that. You mock voters by asking how many of them really knew the eligibility requirements, but see, I have more faith in voters and the Constitution than you do. Just last night my 11 year old daughter was mentioning how one of her classmates was “born in another country, but is a citizen- that means he can’t be President”. This is what I was taught in school. Born in the U.S.- no reference to the mythical citizen parents- this is what I was taught by my ultra-conservative, evangelical civics teacher.

    Birthers embrace this whole Vattel nonsense and insist that this must be the rule, but the voters knew their stuff, and didn’t care who Obama’s father was. Prior to Obama essentially no one had heard or promoted this whole two-citizen parent NBC idiocy. It isn’t what we were taught in school, its not what the Supreme Court has said- it is an argument whose only agenda is excluding President Obama.

    Note, I tried hard not to ridicule you, though I did ridicule some of your arguments(Vattel- what a joke)

  139. avatar
    Scientist August 30, 2010 at 4:35 pm #

    Hulu: How do we know China exists? All those good marked “Made in China” could be a scam perpetrated by Wal-Mart. Those people who are supposedly “Chinese” could all be from Flushing, Queens and faking a bad accent. Oh, and anyone who claims they’ve been to “China” is part of the conspiracy. No, there is absolutely no proof that “China’ exists. None.

  140. avatar
    jamese777 August 30, 2010 at 4:36 pm #

    Hulu: Jamese,You can’t even tell us what Fukino relied on to determine that Obama is a “natural born American citizen! Can you? She never disclosed that information. Did she?Is the determination of natural born American citizen part of medical school education? Not according to any doctor I know. She must have got it from somewhere else. If you are going to consider her statement to be a reliable deduction, you should be able to provide us with the source she used to arrive at her conclusion.

    Yes, I can tell you because Governor Lingle discussed what happened in her recent radio interview in which the Governor declared Obama to have been born at Kapi’olani Medical Center.

    According to Governor Lingle Dr. Fukino relied on the information found on the Obama Certificate of Live Birth which says that he was born at 7:24 p.m. on August 4, 1961 (it was a Friday) and that he was born in the City of Honolulu, in the County of Honolulu, on the Island of Oahu and in the state of Hawai’i, in the United States of America.

    Dr. Fukino then used her training as a physician and in her position as Director of Health for the state of Hawaii to surmise that a person born in Hawaii would be a natural born American citizen. Now that may not be good enough for you, but it has been good enough for every court that has looked at this issue and summarily dismissed every lawsuit. Thus far in 72 court proceedings including 8 appeals at the US Supreme Court, no judge or justice has ruled differently.

    Here’s what one Chief US District Court Judge appointed by Ronald Wilson Reagan had to say on the issue: “This is one of several lawsuits filed by Ms. Taitz in her quixotic attempt to prove that President Obama is not a natural born citizen as required by the Constitution. See Const. Art II, S 1. This Court is not willing to go tilting at windmills with her.” –Chief US District Court Judge for the District of Columbia Royce C. Lamberth in dismissing the quo warranto claim in Taitz v Obama, April 14, 2010.

  141. avatar
    sfjeff August 30, 2010 at 4:56 pm #

    Its so easy to get caught up in refuting each of Hulu’s points- frankly its kind of fun because its easy.

    But essentially Hulu’s argument I believe is this

    a) There exists a long form original Birth Certificate in Hawaii
    b) President Obama hasn’t presented this to the public
    c) President Obama not producing it is evidence that he is not eligible to be President.
    d) Therefore President Obama must be forced to prove he is actually President.

    Isn’t that it in the nutshell?

    It doesn’t matter that no other President, or candidate has ever produced this document to the public for review, that there is no legal requirement to produce one, or that the voters didn’t feel like there was any compelling reason to need to see it.

    For Hulu, and the Birthers, the President not bowing to their demands is not only proof that he is hiding something, it is validation of their confirmed beliefs that President Obama is another (fill in the blanks- choose any of the following) liberal-communist-marxist-islamofascist-gunconfiscating-progressive-homosexual-fascist-brownshirt-hippie-alien-illegal alien-racist-black activist.

  142. avatar
    katahdin August 30, 2010 at 5:08 pm #

    Hulu: As to the one or two citizen parent alleged requirement; that could only be settled in a court of law.

    That was setttled over a hundred years ago. The case was called US v. Wong Kim Ark.
    You will never find a reputable constitutional expert (hint: Orly Taitz isn’t one) who will say that both parents must be citizens in order for someone to be a NBC. And you will never find a court that will rule the way that birthers demand, no matter how many judges they harrass.

  143. avatar
    Hulu August 30, 2010 at 5:26 pm #

    May 2010 – http://www.brendan-nyhan.com/blog/2010/05/abcwp-birther-poll-more-of-the-same.html

    Aug 2010 – http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/112619-poll-27-of-americans-doubt-obamas-birthplace

    The number of those quesioning Obama’s birth story continues to increase! The Obots have been assisted by the MSM, yet those pesky birthers are gaining momentum.

    May be that is why the Obots on this site coldn’t answer the question (What if Obama really wasn’t born in the U.S.?)

    Somewhere between scientific fact and political fact lies truth (as most would understand it to be). For Obots, it is a verified fact that Obama was born in Hawaii. They consider it to be a fact without knowing who filed the birth report. For the birthers, who filed the report is important since it would put the possibility of foreign birth/filing a fraudulent report to rest.

    If the birthers are wrong, they are guilty of having the audacity to question a politician (we all know they are completely honest) and the integrity that we should expect from the Hawaii DOH. (An office which has repeatedly violated their own information practices laws.)

    If the Obots are wrong, we have a person occupying the Office of Commander in Chief, who obtained that office by means of fraud.

    One side is looking to protect the Constitution and United States of America. The other side is defending the man.

  144. avatar
    richCares August 30, 2010 at 5:32 pm #

    One side is looking to protect the Constitution and United States of America. The other side is defending the man.
    .
    WOW, amazing irony from our birther troll. This issue is over, forget it.

  145. avatar
    Scientist August 30, 2010 at 5:36 pm #

    Hulu: What if Obama really wasn’t born in the U.S.?)

    Does China exist? What actual proof do you have?

  146. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 30, 2010 at 5:45 pm #

    Hulu: May 2010 – http://www.brendan-nyhan.com/blog/2010/05/abcwp-birther-poll-more-of-the-same.htmlAug 2010 – http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/112619-poll-27-of-americans-doubt-obamas-birthplaceThe number of those quesioning Obama’s birth story continues to increase! The Obots have been assisted by the MSM, yet those pesky birthers are gaining momentum.May be that is why the Obots on this site coldn’t answer the question (What if Obama really wasn’t born in the U.S.?)Somewhere between scientific fact and political fact lies truth (as most would understand it to be). For Obots, it is a verified fact that Obama was born in Hawaii. They consider it to be a fact without knowing who filed the birth report. For the birthers, who filed the report is important since it would put the possibility of foreign birth/filing a fraudulent report to rest.If the birthers are wrong, they are guilty of having the audacity to question a politician (we all know they are completely honest) and the integrity that we should expect from the Hawaii DOH. (An office which has repeatedly violated their own information practices laws.)If the Obots are wrong, we have a person occupying the Office of Commander in Chief, who obtained that office by means of fraud.One side is looking to protect the Constitution and United States of America. The other side is defending the man.

    We answered that question over and over again troll. Nothing would change. Do you think because the president is removed that somehow everything done in office would be undone? De facto officer doctrine look it up.

    Oh wow 20 something percent question his birth. More people believe 9/11 was an inside job, that we never landed on the moon or that aliens have been to earth. There is always a fringe minority of dead enders that believe in weird conspiracies. Usually it is people who are extremely gullible. Like you know that Miriam Webser is removing the word gullible from the dictionary.

    It doesn’t matter at this point who filed the birth record because nothing will change the fact that he was born in Hawaii. Regardless of who filed the report he was still born in Hawaii. You have nothing that’s why you continue talking in circles, why you won’t answer any questions put to you.

    Oh here we go again another lie by you. What information practices have the Department of Health violated?

    No there are two sides. Those who defend Obama and protect the constitution are on the same side, those on the other side, the birthers and wingnuts want to overthrow the constitution, ignore our laws, talk about armed insurrection all out of hatred for one man. This is the same crap you wingnuts tried pulling on Clinton. You were always trying to delegitimize his election.

  147. avatar
    Jerry Reed August 30, 2010 at 5:56 pm #

    Hulu, one side is trying to pry an elected president out of office on a technicality. They claim to bellieve he was born in Kenya and brought to America shortly afterward. Just for the sake of argument assuming he was born in Kenya, how different is he from what he would have been had be been born in the US? None at all; he was too young to have been affected by his place of birth.
    On the other hand, what if he were to be declared a citizen on the technicality that his mother and father weren’t legally married — he had a wife back in Kenya that he had not been divorced? Can you imagine he howls emanating from birthers if the courts were to say the president inherited ciizenship through his mother, and was therefore eligible to run for president?

  148. avatar
    Majority Will August 30, 2010 at 5:58 pm #

    “One side is looking to protect the Constitution and United States of America. The other side is defending the man.”

    Pure birther b.s.

    Every birther regularly and repeatedly takes a steaming dump on U.S. law and the Constitution.

    Birthers are despicable, un-American cowards with a non-existent grasp of reality.

  149. avatar
    richCares August 30, 2010 at 6:09 pm #

    just thought of something interesting, not a single birther has come up with any proof of their position, not a one. They make charges and spout bull pupu but no proof. HULU is another example, spouts buzzwords and offers no proof. Why is That?

  150. avatar
    JoZeppy August 30, 2010 at 6:21 pm #

    Hulu: Somewhere between scientific fact and political fact lies truth (as most would understand it to be). For Obots, it is a verified fact that Obama was born in Hawaii. They consider it to be a fact without knowing who filed the birth report. For the birthers, who filed the report is important since it would put the possibility of foreign birth/filing a fraudulent report to rest.

    Both of which are unrelated to the law. Under the law, who filed the birth report doesn’t matter. It was accepted by the state, and is proof of his birth in Hawaii. Under the law, if you don’t like it, you need to provide some evidence that fraud occured. Not just some wild possibility that it could occur, but evidence of actual fraud. I understand you have no respect for the laws of this country. That is obvious in your sense of entitlement. And let’s be honest, it won’t matter to birthers who filed the report. You had a parade of annonmous pseudo experts claiming it was a photo shop of his sister’s certificate (even though there is no proof his half sister ever had a Hawaiian COLB). Even though totally debunked, there are armies of birthers that still claim it was proven they were forgeries.

    Again why should anyone provide people that show a total disregard for the laws of our country (and reality) anything?

  151. avatar
    Majority Will August 30, 2010 at 6:22 pm #

    richCares: just thought of something interesting, not a single birther has come up with any proof of their position, not a one. They make charges and spout bull pupu but no proof. HULU is another example, spouts buzzwords and offers no proof. Why is That?

    Paraphrenic schizophrenia and dementia?

  152. avatar
    JoZeppy August 30, 2010 at 6:25 pm #

    richCares: just thought of something interesting, not a single birther has come up with any proof of their position, not a one. They make charges and spout bull pupu but no proof. HULU is another example, spouts buzzwords and offers no proof. Why is That?

    Because birthers hate our country. They would prefer to live in a one party state, as long as the one party is one that fits their world view. Anyone who goes against that world view, is presumed guilty, and must prove his innocence, of whatever charge they can conjure up on a given day. They would be perfectly happy living under the Taliban, so long as it is their own Christain Taliban.

  153. avatar
    misha August 30, 2010 at 6:32 pm #

    JoZeppy: They would be perfectly happy living under the Taliban, so long as it is their own Christain Taliban.

    That is exactly what they want: http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/08/coincidence.html

  154. avatar
    Hulu August 30, 2010 at 6:35 pm #

    Jerry Reed: Hulu, one side is trying to pry an elected president out of office on a technicality. They claim to bellieve he was born in Kenya and brought to America shortly afterward. Just for the sake of argument assuming he was born in Kenya, how different is he from what he would have been had be been born in the US? None at all; he was too young to have been affected by his place of birth.On the other hand, what if he were to be declared a citizen on the technicality that his mother and father weren’t legally married — he had a wife back in Kenya that he had not been divorced? Can you imagine he howls emanating from birthers if the courts were to say the president inherited ciizenship through his mother, and was therefore eligible to run for president?

    Jerry,

    There is only one problem with your conclusion. If he was not born in the U.S., not only would he not be eligible to hold the office, he would not even be a citizen of the U.S. You see, the law at the time of Obama’s birth would not permit his mother to pass citizenship if he was born abroad. (5 years after the age of 14) He would have been a British Subject at birth. A British subject who was never naturalized into the U.S.

    I think that law was pretty stupid. I don’t see any difference between a 19 year old passing citizenship and an 18 year old. However, the law is the law. When we find it to be ridiculous, we change it. When we, as you seem to suggest, choose to just ignore the law (because we don’t think it makes sense) we cease to be a nation of laws.

  155. avatar
    JoZeppy August 30, 2010 at 6:45 pm #

    Hulu: I think that law was pretty stupid. I don’t see any difference between a 19 year old passing citizenship and an 18 year old. However, the law is the law. When we find it to be ridiculous, we change it. When we, as you seem to suggest, choose to just ignore the law (because we don’t think it makes sense) we cease to be a nation of laws.

    Coming from someone who feels that he is entitled to have the President disprove his baseless accusations of fraud, the irony is quite deep.

  156. avatar
    Majority Will August 30, 2010 at 6:59 pm #

    “When we, as you seem to suggest, choose to just ignore the law (because we don’t think it makes sense) we cease to be a nation of laws.”

    And many birthers are obviously flaming hypocrites. What a tool.

  157. avatar
    katahdin August 30, 2010 at 7:05 pm #

    sfjeff: For Hulu, and the Birthers, the President not bowing to their demands is not only proof that he is hiding something, it is validation of their confirmed beliefs that President Obama is another (fill in the blanks- choose any of the following) liberal-communist-marxist-islamofascist-gunconfiscating-progressive-homosexual-fascist-brownshirt-hippie-alien-illegal alien-racist-black activist.

    You forgot: he’s also an athiest who wants to nail all the white wimmen.

  158. avatar
    Scientist August 30, 2010 at 7:10 pm #

    Hulu: If he was not born in the U.S., not only would he not be eligible to hold the office, he would not even be a citizen of the U.S.

    Laws are not just the words on a statute, but the judicial interpretation thereof. Furthermore, there is the issue of whether his parent’s marriage was valid, in view of Obama’s father’s “village marriage’ in Kenya prior to his coming to the US. If his mother was found to actually be unmarried, then the bar on passing citizenship would not have applied. In addition, there were provisions that any child of a US citizen born abroad could be immediately naturalized upon arrival in the US.

    The fact is that no one knows how a judge would rule. If in fact, you could show that some fictional President were born abroad-not obama who we know was born in the US-that would only be the start, not the end of a long legal road.

    As usual, your simplifications violate truth.

  159. avatar
    Keith August 30, 2010 at 7:18 pm #

    Hulu: As to the one or two citizen parent alleged requirement; that could only be settled in a court of law.

    That ‘question’ has been settled by the 14th amendment. Please read:


    Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    Repeat for effect: All persons born, not “all persons with two citizen parents” – All persons born.

  160. avatar
    jamese777 August 30, 2010 at 7:21 pm #

    Hulu: Jerry,There is only one problem with your conclusion. If he was not born in the U.S., not only would he not be eligible to hold the office, he would not even be a citizen of the U.S. You see, the law at the time of Obama’s birth would not permit his mother to pass citizenship if he was born abroad. (5 years after the age of 14) He would have been a British Subject at birth. A British subject who was never naturalized into the U.S.I think that law was pretty stupid. I don’t see any difference between a 19 year old passing citizenship and an 18 year old. However, the law is the law. When we find it to be ridiculous, we change it. When we, as you seem to suggest, choose to just ignore the law (because we don’t think it makes sense) we cease to be a nation of laws.

    I see a nation of laws doing exactly what a nation of laws is supposed to do. Its rather sad that Hulu has so little faith and belief in the American system of jurisprudence. Every Obama eligibility lawsuit has had its day in court. The problem for birthers is that they have failed to present any plaintiffs who have legal standing to sue Obama on eligibility grounds. The primary person who would have standing to sue is Senator John McCain, the only other person to receive Electoral College votes but McCain is not interested in filing suit.

    Our nation of laws has investigated the Obama eligibility issue 72 times now in courts of law from Hawaii to Georgia and everywhere in between. Eight different appeals have been submitted for Justices’ conferences at the Supreme Court of the United States. No court has ruled that Obama is not a natural born citizen.
    What Hulu appears to be saying is because no court has ruled the way Hulu wants them to rule, we are not a nation of laws. That’s the way they used to think in the Soviet Union. In America we still have a presumption of innocence for all defendants.

    If anybody really, seriously wanted to see Obama’s original, long form birth certificate they would go to a prosecuting attorney, present evidence of a crime such as forgery, election fraud, or tampering with official documents and that prosecutor would convene a Grand Jury investigation and get a judge to issue a subpoena for the vault copy documents. Any district attorney, state attorney general or US attorney in the nation could convene a Grand Jury INVESTIGATION of this issue and the fact that none has speaks volumes to me.

    Furthermore, there is no way on earth that a conservative constitutional scholar like Chief Justice John Roberts would have agreed to administer the oath of office to Barack Obama, TWICE, if he had any doubts about Obama’s eligibility.

    Finally, with all the constitutional attorneys that there are in America, not one attorney who has EVER actually argued a case before the US Supreme Court has taken up the Obama eligibility issue. There are many brilliant conservative, originalist constitutional law firms in the US. Not one of them has gone anywhere near a birther lawsuit.
    The attorneys for birther lawsuits have been ambulance chasers with next to no constitutional law background.

  161. avatar
    Scientist August 30, 2010 at 7:23 pm #

    Hulu: However, the law is the law. When we find it to be ridiculous, we change it. When we, as you seem to suggest, choose to just ignore the law (because we don’t think it makes sense) we cease to be a nation of laws.

    So, are the cops supposed to give a ticket to every single car on the highway that is doing even 1 mph over the speed limit? They shouldn’t ignore the law. Should someone go to jail for overestimating the value of an item donated to charity by a few bucks? The IRS shouldn’t ignore the law.

    Oh wait, I forgot that you’re too young to drive or pay taxes, so I guess it doesn’t matter to you.

  162. avatar
    Keith August 30, 2010 at 7:44 pm #

    Hulu: Greg,What portion of the original vital records “confirms” that Obama was born in Hawaii?

    The data item listed under the heading “City, Town, or Location of BIrth”. In Obama’s case it reads ‘HONOLULU’.

    How would that be different from a birth report that was made fraudulently?

    Ah, you see, there’s the rub! That is a rabbit hole you can go down forever and ever and ever. It doesn’t matter if the info comes off the original hospital record, or a true extract of the information on the original hospital record, it is the true data item.

    Speculations, without evidence, of how a fraud might have been committed 50 years ago, cannot impeach the veracity of the extremely regulated vital records systems of the state of Hawai’i. Especially when those speculations are based on known lies.

    State vital records systems that are specifically designed to prevent these questions. At some point you have to climb off the hamster wheel of “yeah, but” and accept that there is an ‘official’ ultimate truth – the State Vital Record System.

    The State of Hawai’i Vital Record System shows that our President was born in Honolulu in 1961. He is therefore old enough and is a Natural Born Citizen.

    End of information that can be gleaned from the Hawai’ian Vital Records System. Period.

  163. avatar
    Keith August 30, 2010 at 7:50 pm #

    Hulu: What we have here is a situation in which fraud is perpetuated.

    The only fraud being perpetrated here is by you by continuing to spread unfounded innuendo.

    What do you think the State Department does if a birth certificate is presented and they feel there is something fishy about the birth certificate? Do you really believe it would be a case of “too bad, it says prima facie on the document”?Any document should be able to be verified by the issuing authority.

    What would be ‘fishy’ about it? No raised seal? No inked signature? They would contact the person applying for the passport (assumption of scenario) and ask for a proper one, not a photocopy.

  164. avatar
    aarrgghh August 30, 2010 at 8:28 pm #

    jamese777: … McCain is not interested in filing suit. … No court has ruled that Obama is not a natural born citizen. … Any district attorney, state attorney general or US attorney in the nation could convene a Grand Jury INVESTIGATION of this issue and the fact that none has speaks volumes to me.Furthermore, there is no way on earth that a conservative constitutional scholar like Chief Justice John Roberts would have agreed to administer the oath of office to Barack Obama, TWICE, if he had any doubts about Obama’s eligibility.Finally, with all the constitutional attorneys that there are in America, not one attorney who has EVER actually argued a case before the US Supreme Court has taken up the Obama eligibility issue. There are many brilliant conservative, originalist constitutional law firms in the US. Not one of them has gone anywhere near a birther lawsuit …

    sorry, my friend, but all that means is that they’re all in on it, every last one of ’em!

  165. avatar
    Ellid August 30, 2010 at 8:54 pm #

    “My state, which is Texas (although most ppl here think I’m lying about that), no longer routinely’ issues long-forms – just like Hawaii. HOWEVER, that is NOT to say they no longer release long-forms – they just don’t do it routinely. You must verbally ask for and state a reason for needing the long-form, just as I did when it was required to obtain my passport, since the State Department refused to accept my short form.”

    Funny, Scott old sport, but the Texas Department of Vital Statistics doesn’t say a thing about verbally requesting this: http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/vs/reqproc/certified_copy.shtm.

  166. avatar
    Ellid August 30, 2010 at 9:00 pm #

    Hulu:
    Greg,I have a hard time believing that you are as ignorant as the information you attempt to present. I doubt that half of those who voted for Obama could have cited the constitutionally mandated qualifications, let alone made a concious determination that he met the qualifications.Prior to the election, what percentage of voters do you think ever heard of Wong Kim Ark, or Minor v Happersett? In addition, when did the MSM present any information that would cause the voters to consider the question?

    A President has to be a natural born citizen, over thirty-five, and resident in the United States for at least fourteen years. Obama met these qualifications, as did McCain, making them both eligible. I voted for the one I thought had better judgment (especially in the choice of an experienced legislator over a half-term theocrat for vice president), like 69 million of my fellow Americans. That YOU don’t like the outcome is irrelevant.

  167. avatar
    Scientist August 30, 2010 at 9:03 pm #

    By the way, let me give an example from recent history of laws regarding presidential eligibility that were ignored. Dick Cheney was CEO of a large corporation that was headquartered in Houston, Texas. He lived and worked in Houston, Texas. Yet, when he ran for Vice President he managed to claim he was a resident of Wyoming, despite the fact that for the preceding decade, he had only gone there occasionally for vacation.

    Why is this important? Because Texas electors were barred by the Constitution from voting for a Texas resident for both President and Vice President. Since George Bush was indisputably a Texas resident, their votes should have been denied to Dick Cheney. And guess what? Without Texas’ votes, Joe Lieberman would have been VP, not Dick Cheney.

    The matter was taken to court and thrown out. And guess what happened next? There was plenty of criticism of Dick Cheney’s policies on the left, but no “residenters” screaming about “usurper”. Not a single web site as far as I know, talking about Cheney not being eligible. And yet, there were good reasons to consider that Dick Cheney was not eligible under the language and intent of the Constitution, solid reasons based on actual provable fact, rather than wild speculation as is the case with the birthers and Obama. The difference is quite striking.

  168. avatar
    jamese777 August 30, 2010 at 9:03 pm #

    aarrgghh: sorry, my friend, but all that means is that they’re all in on it, every last one of em!

    RIGHT! 😉

  169. avatar
    Ellid August 30, 2010 at 9:04 pm #

    Hulu:
    I have oftened wondered why the Obots hang out here.

    Because I despise untruths, especially when promulgated by people who damn well know better.

  170. avatar
    Ellid August 30, 2010 at 9:11 pm #

    Hulu:
    Jamese,You can’t even tell us what Fukino relied on to determine that Obama is a “natural born American citizen! Can you? She never disclosed that information. Did she?Is the determination of natural born American citizen part of medical school education? Not according to any doctor I know. She must have got it from somewhere else. If you are going to consider her statement to be a reliable deduction, you should be able to provide us with the source she used to arrive at her conclusion.

    Wow. This should be part of a new reality series, “When Birthers Melt Down.” What a hissy fit!

  171. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 30, 2010 at 9:56 pm #

    Hulu: If he was not born in the U.S., not only would he not be eligible to hold the office, he would not even be a citizen of the U.S.

    If the moon were made of green cheese, mice would be happy there. What’s your point?

  172. avatar
    misha August 30, 2010 at 9:58 pm #

    Hulu: If he was not born in the U.S., not only would he not be eligible to hold the office, he would not even be a citizen of the U.S.

    If my grandmother had wheels, she would have been a trolley car. If I had wings, I would be a Piper Cub.

  173. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 30, 2010 at 10:07 pm #

    Hulu: May be that is why the Obots on this site coldn’t answer the question (What if Obama really wasn’t born in the U.S.?)

    While it completely hypothetical, it is an interesting question and one we might argue about, but not likely come to a satisfactory conclusion. As you may well know, Stanley Ann Obama had not lived the requisite number of years in the United States to pass on her citizenship to a child born outside the United States PROVIDED that she was married. That is where it gets tricky. You see, Barack Obama Sr. was already married (with children) before he “married” Stanley Ann. The State of Hawaii does not recognize bigamous marriages, saying they are null ab initio. The legal analysis here is complicated because it involves the laws of the US and Kenya. If Hawaii recognized Obama Sr.’s first marriage, then Stanley Ann was not married when the President was born, and he would have been born a citizen, no matter where in the world that was. This then opens up the whole can of worms about whether someone born a citizen of the United States overseas is a natural born citizen. Most constitutional scholars would say yes, but not all.

  174. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 30, 2010 at 10:11 pm #

    sfjeff: Isn’t that it in the nutshell?

    Pun intended?

  175. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 30, 2010 at 10:15 pm #

    Hulu: Jamese,You can’t even tell us what Fukino relied on to determine that Obama is a “natural born American citizen! Can you? She never disclosed that information. Did she?

    According to Dr. Fukino’s statement, she checked Obama’s original birth certificate. If you’re asking about the specific phrase “natural born”, I can only guess she got it in high school civics class, or any legal dictionary, or text about the Constitution.

  176. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 30, 2010 at 10:20 pm #

    Hulu: Show me where Fukino verified the signature, sport?

    I hope next time you get pulled over by a cop that he charges you with driving without a license and hauls you off to jail because your “drivers license” doesn’t have the signature of the person who administered the driving test.

  177. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 30, 2010 at 10:22 pm #

    Hulu: Are you an idiot?

    You are being put in moderation for disrespecting the community.

  178. avatar
    Sef August 30, 2010 at 10:26 pm #

    jamese777: Furthermore, there is no way on earth that a conservative constitutional scholar like Chief Justice John Roberts would have agreed to administer the oath of office to Barack Obama, TWICE, if he had any doubts about Obama’s eligibility.

    It’s bubble busting time. While it would have caused a “Constitutional crisis” if Roberts had not sworn in Obama, it was not necessary for him to become President. Every moment of time since noon ET on 1/20/09 Obama has been President. Similarly with Kennedy/Johnson. After Kennedy’s death Johnson became President. He did not need to be sworn in on AF1 to make him so.

  179. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 30, 2010 at 10:29 pm #

    Hulu: Maybe it would help if you used the words in context. Dr. Fukino did not say that she “vefified the records”. She said she verified that they have the records, and those records verify that Obama was born. A fraudulent birth report would be supported by the same statements.

    She also said that the records were filed according to regulation. The records are in order. She didn’t of course call the police and have them bang on doors looking for people who signed the form 48 year ago. That would be silly. Yes, that would be silly. The reason we register births in this country is exactly so these witch hunts should never happen.

  180. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 30, 2010 at 10:42 pm #

    Hulu: If Obama’s birth was reported by a family member, it (according to Dr. Conspiracy) would not be legal. Dr. Conspiracy has stated that a family member could not have filed the report. According to Dr. Conspiracy, only the parent could have filed a report of home birth.

    More precisely stated the law says that in the case of an unattended birth parents are required to file the certificate. It’s not that someone else filing the certificate is illegal, but rather that it would not be accepted unless it could be shown that the parents were unable to file the certificate.

    Frankly I do not see why birthers are so enamored with a grandmother filing the certificate. Why involve that complication? If a family member filed the certificate, then it much more likely that a parent filed it (this is overwhelmingly the case in real vital statistics data for unattended births). You know that there were ONLY 100 unattended births in all of the State of Hawaii that year.

  181. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 30, 2010 at 10:50 pm #

    Hulu:What do you think the State Department does if a birth certificate is presented and they feel there is something fishy about the birth certificate? Do you really believe it would be a case of “too bad, it says prima facie on the document”?

    Ah, in that case the State Department doesn’t write an internal memorandum (see page 38) in 1967 saying that Stanley Ann Soetoro’s son was born in Honolulu. OOPS, the State Department DID write an internal memo saying that. I guess they didn’t have any questions. (You kinda stepped right into that one.)

  182. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 30, 2010 at 11:00 pm #

    Hulu: Prior to the election, what percentage of voters do you think ever heard of Wong Kim Ark, or Minor v Happersett? In addition, when did the MSM present any information that would cause the voters to consider the question?

    I daresay that every legal affairs analyst/consultant of every major newspaper and television network has heard of Wong Kim Ark, and certainly every immigration lawyer in the country has. Certainly some of the lawyers in Congress had, and SURELY a few important Republicans had. That should tell you something. It SHOULD tell you something. What does it tell you? How big the conspiracy is?

  183. avatar
    jamese777 August 30, 2010 at 11:10 pm #

    Hulu: Jamese,You can’t even tell us what Fukino relied on to determine that Obama is a “natural born American citizen! Can you? She never disclosed that information. Did she?Is the determination of natural born American citizen part of medical school education? Not according to any doctor I know. She must have got it from somewhere else. If you are going to consider her statement to be a reliable deduction, you should be able to provide us with the source she used to arrive at her conclusion.

    One more time for Hulu, here is the complete and direct quotation from the Governor of Hawaii, Linda Lingle: “You know, during the campaign of 2008, I was actually in the mainland campaigning for Senator McCain. This issue kept coming up so much in the campaign, and again I think it’s one of those issues that is simply a distraction from the more critical issues that are facing the country. And so I had my health director, who is a physician by background, go personally view the birth certificate in the birth records of the Department of Health, and we issued a news release at that time saying that the president was, in fact, born at Kapi’olani Hospital in Honolulu, Hawaii. And that’s just a fact. And yet people continue to call up and e-mail and want to make it an issue. And I think it’s, again, a horrible distraction for the country by those people who continue this. … It’s been established. He was born here.”—Governor of Hawaii Linda Lingle (R)

  184. avatar
    jamese777 August 30, 2010 at 11:40 pm #

    Sef: It’s bubble busting time. While it would have caused a “Constitutional crisis” if Roberts had not sworn in Obama, it was not necessary for him to become President. Every moment of time since noon ET on 1/20/09 Obama has been President. Similarly with Kennedy/Johnson. After Kennedy’s death Johnson became President. He did not need to be sworn in on AF1 to make him so.

    From the Wikipedia entry:
    “The oath of office of the President of the United States is an oath or affirmation REQUIRED by the United States Constitution before the President begins the execution of the office. The wording is specified in Article Two, Section One, Clause Eight:

    “ I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

    Here’s the exact wording of clause eight from the Constitution: “Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:

    “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

  185. avatar
    Frederick N. August 31, 2010 at 12:13 am #

    Matthews attack on McConnell is looney. When asked about Obama’s religion, he said, ”
    The President says, the President says he’s a Christian. I take him at his word. I don’t think that’s in dispute.” What more is McConnell supposed to do to prove he doesn’t believe Obama is a Muslim? Ridiculous. Matthews choosing not to believe him is paranoid and hateful.

  186. avatar
    DadBode August 31, 2010 at 12:57 am #

    The most cogent item to appear in this blog so far:
    Innocent until proven guilty. It is the standard of American jurisprudence that so many choose to ignore. As a longtime championship debate coach, the burden of proof is always on the prosecuting side, the affirmative, if you will. If one claims Barack Obama is not a citizen, he/she accepts the burden of proof.
    To date, I have yet to see proof.
    Conjecture, innuendo and hearsay are not proof.
    Straw man arguments are not proof.
    Settled Case Law is precedent.
    Precedent dictates that he is President.

  187. avatar
    Gorefan August 31, 2010 at 1:09 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: certainly every immigration lawyer in the country has

    Have you heard of any law school professors, who have come forward and joined the birthers or agreed with their arguments for two citizen parents or native versus natural born citizens?

  188. avatar
    SFJEFF August 31, 2010 at 1:20 am #

    What Hulu propose is that Voters are too ignorant to understand the natural born citizen requirements.

    Only Berg and a small cabal of supporters have managed to decode the message on the back of the Constitution that clearly states that the definition of Natural Born Citizen is a person born in the United States to two citizen parents. Why they chose to hide this message and instead let generation after generation of school children be ignorant of this important requirement is a sacred mystery.

    See- this is why the voters are all ignorant, but Hulu and Berg are entrusted with the truth.

  189. avatar
    Lupin August 31, 2010 at 1:56 am #

    Scientist: The matter was taken to court and thrown out. And guess what happened next? There was plenty of criticism of Dick Cheney’s policies on the left, but no “residenters” screaming about “usurper”. Not a single web site as far as I know, talking about Cheney not being eligible. And yet, there were good reasons to consider that Dick Cheney was not eligible under the language and intent of the Constitution, solid reasons based on actual provable fact, rather than wild speculation as is the case with the birthers and Obama. The difference is quite striking.

    As I have said here, ad nauseam, the Three Law of Birthertics are:

    1. No n*** could ever be elected president legitimately
    2. If one is, there must be fraud.
    3. Shut up!

  190. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 31, 2010 at 6:04 am #

    SFJEFF: What Hulu propose is that Voters are too ignorant to understand the natural born citizen requirements.

    I think what Hulu is saying, and I agree with it, is that the vast majority of the voters couldn’t tell you the three requirements for presidential eligibility in Article II and that they didn’t vote for Obama with them in mind. I think that when such issues impact a particular candidate it is the duty of the news media and opposition political candidates/parties to highlight them. In the case of Barack Obama eligibility was not a legitimate issue and neither the press nor the opposition candidate raised it for that reason.

  191. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 31, 2010 at 6:12 am #

    DadBode: As a longtime championship debate coach, the burden of proof is always on the prosecuting side, the affirmative, if you will.

    So how does the argument “everybody is lying” get judged?

  192. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 31, 2010 at 6:22 am #

    Frederick N.: Matthews attack on McConnell is looney. When asked about Obama’s religion, he said, ”The President says, the President says he’s a Christian. I take him at his word. I don’t think that’s in dispute.” What more is McConnell supposed to do to prove he doesn’t believe Obama is a Muslim? Ridiculous. Matthews choosing not to believe him is paranoid and hateful.

    Frederick brings out an important point, that McConnell’s remark concluded with the final sentence “I don’t think that’s in dispute.”

    The larger context of the remark is:

    SEN. McCONNELL: The president says he’s a–the president says he’s a Christian, I take him at his word. I don’t think that’s in dispute.

    MR. GREGORY: And do you think–how, how do you think it comes to be that this kind of misinformation gets spread around and prevails?

    SEN. McCONNELL: I have no idea, but I take the president at his word.

  193. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 31, 2010 at 7:13 am #

    Sef: It’s bubble busting time. While it would have caused a “Constitutional crisis” if Roberts had not sworn in Obama, it was not necessary for him to become President.

    It is my understanding that anyone authorized to certify an oath, even a notary public, could swear in the President.

  194. avatar
    ellid August 31, 2010 at 7:40 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    It is my understanding that anyone authorized to certify an oath, even a notary public, could swear in the President.

    A Justice of the Peace can and has sworn in a President (Calvin Coolidge, who was sworn in by his father in the family parlor after receiving word of President Harding’s death). I’m a notary and I’m not sure if I could do it, but I’d have to check the General Laws to be sure. I know I could if I were a JP.

  195. avatar
    ellid August 31, 2010 at 7:43 am #

    And I just looked it up and I stand corrected: notaries can indeed swear in a President, based on the Coolidge precedent. I can’t imagine that I ever would be called upon to do such a thing, but if I had to….

  196. avatar
    Bovril August 31, 2010 at 8:40 am #

    I’m not sure even a notary is required, this is not testimony in a court of law or a deposition etc, it is an affirmation.

    So long as an affirmation is witnessed and recorded it counts as an affirmation.

    Lets us take a classic Cold War scenario as an example, this was an example of an actual war gamed scenario of 60’s and 70’s.

    First strike from the Orange Forces kicks off with a backpack nuke detonation during a session in the House killing or rendering incapable the President, Vice-President, Speaker, President pro-tempore of the Senate and Secretary of State.

    The Sec of the Treasury is next in sucession and is on vacation in “Butt Kiss God Knows Where”. No access to a JP or a notary just the folks with him/Her and the Secret Service team.

    The 25th Amendment is clear that the succession means that that person is President right then and there, nothing else required.

    The 25th basically removed the requirement for an oath

    Section 1. In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President.

  197. avatar
    Mark August 31, 2010 at 9:39 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
    Ah another “mark” concern trolling.What more would you get from the Long Form that establishes his birth in Hawaii?What other details would show that he was born in Hawaii more than the Birth Certificate that Hawaii gave Obama?

    I have a dear friend on Cape Cod who was incredibly pissed off that I would even care about the long form birth certificate, he basically offered the same comment that you have just made so while he was still on the phone i got my birth certificate from the state of NY and started to read it to him. By way of example, it even gave the date my parents had been tested for syphilis! I was born in 1950, do some research and look at a NY birth Certificate and I think you will have to agree that there is a lot more information shown than on a computer generated abstract.

    I’m actually surprised that so many intelligent people spend so much time defending the Presidents decision not to release the long form birth certificate. Just release the damn thing! I for one would be relieved. At the end of the day, if there is nothing wrong or nothing to hide then why would anyone in their right mind not release the document and be done with it ! Make me go away, please !!!!!!!

    Mark.

  198. avatar
    Sean August 31, 2010 at 9:41 am #

    During the inoguaration, the oath was bungled a little by the Justice administering. I remember Chris Wallace of Fox News was quick to say that he doesn’t think Obama is legitimately President because of the flub.

    I thought to myself, hmm, I guess Chris got the memo from Fox to disparage Obama for any reason no matter how small (fistbumps and cheeseburgers).

  199. avatar
    BatGuano August 31, 2010 at 10:01 am #

    Mark: At the end of the day, if there is nothing wrong or nothing to hide then why would anyone in their right mind not release the document and be done with it ! Make me go away, please !!!!!!!

    if you believe that the COLB is a possible forgery and is being backed by the hawaiian DoH then what’s to stop them from forging a long form ?

  200. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 31, 2010 at 10:18 am #

    Mark: I have a dear friend on Cape Cod who was incredibly pissed off that I would even care about the long form birth certificate, he basically offered the same comment that you have just made so while he was still on the phone i got my birth certificate from the state of NY and started to read it to him. By way of example, it even gave the date my parents had been tested for syphilis! I was born in 1950, do some research and look at a NY birth Certificate and I think you will have to agree that there is a lot more information shown than on a computer generated abstract.I’m actually surprised that so many intelligent people spend so much time defending the Presidents decision not to release the long form birth certificate. Just release the damn thing! I for one would be relieved. At the end of the day, if there is nothing wrong or nothing to hide then why would anyone in their right mind not release the document and be done with it ! Make me go away, please !!!!!!!Mark.

    When was your birth certificate issued? Have you tried getting one recently? Again you miss my question. How would the long form differ from the COLB? Both forms are legal and are used in court. Sure there is a lot more information there is also other information not included on the long form like blood type abscar score, etc. If the pertinent information is that Obama be born in the United States and the COLB says he was born in Honolulu, Hawaii how would the long form change that if the City and State he was born printed on the COLB comes from the Long Form. What does the other information matter if where he was born is the same on both?

    How exactly are you not relieved? Again intelligent people don’t ask stupid questions like you are.

  201. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 31, 2010 at 10:19 am #

    BatGuano: if you believe that the COLB is a possible forgery and is being backed by the hawaiian DoH then what’s to stop them from forging a long form ?

    Because of the way the long form is made it is a lot easier to forge the long form certificate than the COLB which has security featured built into it

  202. avatar
    Gorefan August 31, 2010 at 10:39 am #

    Mark: By way of example, it even gave the date my parents had been tested for syphilis! I was born in 1950,

    Thanks for telling us what is in the NY BC. My California Certificate of Live Birth (also from the 1950’s) has very little medical info. For me, it only lists sex, day, time of birth and whether I was part of a mulitple birth (twins, etc.) For my parents just age, place of birth, race, and address, and occupation (only for the father). Every State has different requirements.

    Nothing listed on my long form California BC has any impact on my eligibilty to be President, other then place of birth. And the same is true for your New York BC. And that is clearly, listed on the President’s COLB. So what info do you need to see? Will you vote for President Obama if he was born a Kapiolani Hospital, but not if he was born at Queens Hospital? Do you really need to see the mother’s place of birth? father’s race?

    If you lost your NY 1950 BC, and had to get another. And if they sent you an abstracted COLB, would you get angry, demand they send you a new long form? Would it be your fault that NY only sent you a COLB? The President asked Hawaii to send him a copy of his BC and they sent him the COLB, that he posted on his website. Is it his fault that they sent an abstracted COLB?

  203. avatar
    Ellid August 31, 2010 at 10:44 am #

    Mark:
    I have a dear friend on Cape Cod who was incredibly pissed off that I would even care about the long form birth certificate, he basically offered the same comment that you have just made so while he was still on the phone i got my birth certificate from the state of NY and started to read it to him. By way of example, it even gave the date my parents had been tested for syphilis! I was born in 1950, do some research and look at a NY birth Certificate and I think you will have to agree that there is a lot more information shown than on a computer generated abstract.I’m actually surprised that so many intelligent people spend so much time defending the Presidents decision not to release the long form birth certificate. Just release the damn thing! I for one would be relieved. At the end of the day, if there is nothing wrong or nothing to hide then why would anyone in their right mind not release the document and be done with it ! Make me go away, please !!!!!!!Mark.

    First, I do not believe for one minute that your concern trolling would cease.

    Second, I do not believe that the date of your parents’ pre-marital Wasserman tests would appear on a birth certificate.

    Third, it’s up to Doc C to make you go away, not the President.

  204. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 31, 2010 at 11:03 am #

    Ellid: First, I do not believe for one minute that your concern trolling would cease.Second, I do not believe that the date of your parents’ pre-marital Wasserman tests would appear on a birth certificate.Third, it’s up to Doc C to make you go away, not the President.

    I’m curious why just syphilis? Of all the STDs to test for why did only the “testing for syphilis” show up?

  205. avatar
    Greg August 31, 2010 at 11:03 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I think what Hulu is saying, and I agree with it, is that the vast majority of the voters couldn’t tell you the three requirements for presidential eligibility in Article II and that they didn’t vote for Obama with them in mind.

    See The Wisdom of Crowds.

    See the anecdote the author tells in the introduction.

    It doesn’t matter that the average individual didn’t know Minor v. Happersett, since the crowd’s wisdom was correct that there was no issue with Obama’s eligibility.

  206. avatar
    JoZeppy August 31, 2010 at 11:11 am #

    Mark: I have a dear friend on Cape Cod who was incredibly pissed off that I would even care about the long form birth certificate, he basically offered the same comment that you have just made so while he was still on the phone i got my birth certificate from the state of NY and started to read it to him. By way of example, it even gave the date my parents had been tested for syphilis! I was born in 1950, do some research and look at a NY birth Certificate and I think you will have to agree that there is a lot more information shown than on a computer generated abstract.I’m actually surprised that so many intelligent people spend so much time defending the Presidents decision not to release the long form birth certificate. Just release the damn thing! I for one would be relieved. At the end of the day, if there is nothing wrong or nothing to hide then why would anyone in their right mind not release the document and be done with it ! Make me go away, please !!!!!!!Mark.

    And it surprises me at how many people have so little respect for the institutions of our country that they will cling to any excuse to denegrate the duly elected leader of our nation. First, it is the state of Hawaii that does not issue the “long form.” The President has very little to do with it. Unless you are suggesting the President abuse his power and demand the State make special exceptions just for him. And secondly, can you please tell me what information that appears on the “long form” would make any difference on his eligibility to hold office? Can you point me to where in the consitution it says that a person’s whose parents were not tested for syphilis cannot hold the office of president? Just because a document contains more information does not make that document more conclusive than the short form if all the additional information is not germane to the question of where he was born. The short form says he was born in Hawaii. That is all he needs to be a natural born citizen. The name of the doctor that delivered him doesn’t make him more or less a natural born citizen, nor does the hospital (which we know anyway). Don’t you think the President has better things to do than to answer each new line of questions a small group of ungovernable malcontents throw in front of him as an excuse to disrepect him, his office, and our country? Best solution is to ignore the nutters.

  207. avatar
    Majority Will August 31, 2010 at 11:16 am #

    Mark:
    I have a dear friend on Cape Cod who was incredibly pissed off that I would even care about the long form birth certificate, he basically offered the same comment that you have just made so while he was still on the phone i got my birth certificate from the state of NY and started to read it to him. By way of example, it even gave the date my parents had been tested for syphilis! I was born in 1950, do some research and look at a NY birth Certificate and I think you will have to agree that there is a lot more information shown than on a computer generated abstract.I’m actually surprised that so many intelligent people spend so much time defending the Presidents decision not to release the long form birth certificate. Just release the damn thing! I for one would be relieved. At the end of the day, if there is nothing wrong or nothing to hide then why would anyone in their right mind not release the document and be done with it ! Make me go away, please !!!!!!!Mark.

    Did the state of Hawaii and the state of New York sit down together with every other state to decide on uniform records keeping methods and self-authenticating, legal documents issuance procedures?

    Do you know what the following means and where it is documented? (Hint: It’s real important so pay attention.)

    “Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.”

    Are you insinuating that the state of Hawaii has committed fraud?

    Or that they are complicit in this vast conspiracy spanning nearly fifty years you have concocted?

    “Just release the damn thing! I for one would be relieved.”

    Arrogant, irrelevant and entirely missing the point. You’re not entitled as much as you fantasize that you are. And has been said ad nauseam, the information on the legally produced COLB is sufficient evidence of place and date of birth establishing natural born citizenship status.

    Where was your self-righteous indignation for any other President or Presidential candidate? Did you demand to see McCain’s “long form”? You know, the guy born in Panama.

    What’s the harm? Purely my opinion, but I’ve read enough posts by deranged, seemingly unstable, hate driven birthers who would pounce on any more information coming from any source to create a more sinister and more vast conspiracy with the sole intent of destroying the President and his administration.

    Want examples? Head over to the Post & Email and read just a handful of reader’s comments. You’ll find calls for sedition, assassination, humiliation, arrest (unlawful) and bizarre, deeply disturbing allegations with no evidence whatsoever to support the endless rants of some these lunatics. Why give them more ammunition?

    The legal authority of the state of Hawaii has provided sufficient information.

    Want to change the eligibility requirement for the future? You want privacy laws to be different in the future for Presidential candidates?
    Go for it. Petition Congress to change the laws affecting all states’ rights.
    It would be far more productive than gnashing your teeth over the legally protected vital records of the state of Hawaii.

  208. avatar
    Rickey August 31, 2010 at 11:41 am #

    Mark:
    i got my birth certificate from the state of NY and started to read it to him. By way of example, it even gave the date my parents had been tested for syphilis! I was born in 1950, do some research and look at a NY birth Certificate and I think you will have to agree that there is a lot more information shown than on a computer generated abstract.

    I have two copies of my New York birth certificate. The older of the two was issued one week after I was born in 1948. The other is a copy which I ordered in 1988. Both certificates contain the same information:

    1, My name
    2. My date of birth
    3. City and State of birth
    4. My sex
    5. My father’s name and my mother’s maiden name
    6. Date filed
    7. Signature of registrar

    That’s it. So I’m tempted to call you out on your claim, but I’ll give you a chance to prove that you are telling the truth.

    My 1948 certificate has this form no.: Form V.S. 68 9-18-47-100M (7A-544)

    My 1988 certificate has this form no.: DOH-1901 (1/88) VS-68

    So please tell us what the form no. is for your 1950 birth certificate, the one which supposedly includes the date when your parents were tested for syphilis. I will then contact NYS DOH and confirm that such a form existed and what information it contained.

    I eagerly await your response.

  209. avatar
    BatGuano August 31, 2010 at 11:51 am #

    JoZeppy: Unless you are suggesting the President abuse his power and demand the State make special exceptions just for him.

    exactly! if the president were to be provided with a document that wasn’t available to the public the birthers would claim that it’s absolute proof of a forgery, imo.

  210. avatar
    jamese777 August 31, 2010 at 12:26 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: It is my understanding that anyone authorized to certify an oath, even a notary public, could swear in the President.

    You are correct Dr.C. anyone can perform the swearing in but taking the Oath of Office IS a constitutional requirement. The Chief Justice doing it is just a formality to give gravitas to the occasion.
    George Washington was administered the oath by the Chancellor of New York State but every other regularly scheduled inauguration has had the Chief Justice perform the ceremony..

  211. avatar
    jamese777 August 31, 2010 at 12:31 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I think what Hulu is saying, and I agree with it, is that the vast majority of the voters couldn’t tell you the three requirements for presidential eligibility in Article II and that they didn’t vote for Obama with them in mind. I think that when such issues impact a particular candidate it is the duty of the news media and opposition political candidates/parties to highlight them. In the case of Barack Obama eligibility was not a legitimate issue and neither the press nor the opposition candidate raised it for that reason.

    However both the Clinton and the McCain campaigns said that they DID in fact investigate the issue and could find nothing there so they dropped it.

  212. avatar
    jamese777 August 31, 2010 at 12:41 pm #

    Mark: I have a dear friend on Cape Cod who was incredibly pissed off that I would even care about the long form birth certificate, he basically offered the same comment that you have just made so while he was still on the phone i got my birth certificate from the state of NY and started to read it to him. By way of example, it even gave the date my parents had been tested for syphilis! I was born in 1950, do some research and look at a NY birth Certificate and I think you will have to agree that there is a lot more information shown than on a computer generated abstract.I’m actually surprised that so many intelligent people spend so much time defending the Presidents decision not to release the long form birth certificate. Just release the damn thing! I for one would be relieved. At the end of the day, if there is nothing wrong or nothing to hide then why would anyone in their right mind not release the document and be done with it ! Make me go away, please !!!!!!!Mark.

    Would you trust a document released by Obama? How would an Obama released long form be any different in terms of credibility with birthers from the already released and verified by the State of Hawaii short form?
    Perhaps Obama doesn’t want the issue to go away for political reasons.
    If anybody seriously wants to see the long form, get a subpoena, then Obama will have no impact on the release of the document. A subponeaed document may happen in the Lakin Court Martial if the military judge is inclined to be extremely generous to the defense. More likely will be a telephone deposition taken from Dr. Fukino in Hawaii.

  213. avatar
    dunstvangeet August 31, 2010 at 1:14 pm #

    jamese777More likely will be a telephone deposition taken from Dr. Fukino in Hawaii.

    Even this is a stretch. By saying this, the court would be saying that Obama’s status has some relevance on the case. They’d be ignoring the de facto officer doctorine that is firmly established in juris prudence.

    Much more likely, the Court says, “even if Obama was ineligible (which this court finds impossible…), the order would still be valid. Therefore, Obama’s eligibility is not relevant to the case at hand.”

    If the evidence is not relevant, then why would Fukino sit down for a deposition?

  214. avatar
    Ellid August 31, 2010 at 1:38 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
    I’m curious why just syphilis?Of all the STDs to test for why did only the “testing for syphilis” show up?

    Many states require a Wasserman test before they will issue a marriage license. I believe it started as a way to prevent hereditary syphilis.

  215. avatar
    Expelliarmus August 31, 2010 at 1:40 pm #

    Mark: I’m actually surprised that so many intelligent people spend so much time defending the Presidents decision not to release the long form birth certificate. Just release the damn thing! I for one would be relieved.

    I’m surprised that so many supposedly intelligent people don’t understand that the President of the United States has no authority whatsoever over state agencies, including the Hawaii Health Department. He can no more “release” the “long form birth certificate” than can any other citizen — it is up to Hawaii state authorities, following the laws and administrative regulations in place in that state, to decide what they will and will not “release”.

  216. avatar
    jamese777 August 31, 2010 at 1:45 pm #

    dunstvangeet: Even this is a stretch. By saying this, the court would be saying that Obama’s status has some relevance on the case. They’d be ignoring the de facto officer doctorine that is firmly established in juris prudence.Much more likely, the Court says, “even if Obama was ineligible (which this court finds impossible…), the order would still be valid. Therefore, Obama’s eligibility is not relevant to the case at hand.”If the evidence is not relevant, then why would Fukino sit down for a deposition?

    You are exactly right however in military court martials, Military Judges have been known to allow a lot more latitude to the defense than found in civilian trials.

    The Investigating Officer for the Lakin Court Martial, Colonel Dan Driscoll recommended allowing Allan Keyes and Major General (Ret) Paul Vallely (a birther) to testify on Lakin’s behalf. The only reason for Keyes and Vallely to be a defense witness is because he sued Obama on eligibility grounds in Keyes v Obama (Barnett v Obama).

    From the IO’s Memorandum: “With respect to the Defense requests to present testimony from Major General (Retired) Paul Vallely and Mr. Alan Keyes, the Government correctly asserts that the Defense offers no explanation of relevance as required by the Manual for Courts-Martial and my 6 May 2010 Memorandum. Nevertheless, again for reasons of thoroughness and inclusiveness, I will hear testimony from these witnesses.”

    I doubt that any Obama eligibility testimony or evidence will be allowed but we’ll all have to wait and see.
    Allowing great latitude in the trial court undermines the grounds for appeal.

  217. avatar
    Majority Will August 31, 2010 at 2:40 pm #

    Looking at the comments on Irish Central, it’s amazing how often the same debunked birther nonsense spreads to even relatively obscure websites.

    http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Chris-Matthews-condemns-Birther-tactics-smearing-Obama-101637308.html?commentspage=1

  218. avatar
    Sean August 31, 2010 at 2:43 pm #

    Expelliarmus:
    I’m surprised that so many supposedly intelligent people don’t understand that the President of the United States has no authority whatsoever over state agencies, including the Hawaii Health Department.He can no more “release” the “long form birth certificate” than can any other citizen — it is up to Hawaii state authorities, following the laws and administrative regulations in place in that state, to decide what they will and will not “release”.

    My best friend’s son was born in Hawaii. I’ll ask him to call Hawaii DOH and ask if he can get a copy of his original.

  219. avatar
    sfjeff August 31, 2010 at 2:54 pm #

    “I think what Hulu is saying, and I agree with it, is that the vast majority of the voters couldn’t tell you the three requirements for presidential eligibility in Article II and that they didn’t vote for Obama with them in mind”

    Doc, while I agree with you that the majority couldn’t quote all three requirements, I do contend that the vast majority of voters do know that the President must be a natural born citizen, and that they understand that a NBC is anyone born in the United States.

    As I have mentioned, I remember learning that in Jr. High School and the age requirement , even though I forgot the residency requirements. My 11 year old daughter told me that someone not born in the United States wasn’t eligible to be President. The born in the U.S. part is probably the best known requirement.

    What to me is more telling is that the voters were unconcerned about the knowledge that the Presidents father was not a U.S. Citizen. The voters- and I contend this is based upon their memories of what they learned in school or citizenship classes- did not think that having an alien father disqualified Obama for President.

    I will go even further and say that even if Schwartzenegger now, or Kissinger in his day managed to get on a Presidential ballot, that they would be voted down by voters who know that they are not qualified. Everyone knows the born in the U.S. requirement.

  220. avatar
    Majority Will August 31, 2010 at 4:00 pm #

    sfjeff: “I think what Hulu is saying, and I agree with it, is that the vast majority of the voters couldn’t tell you the three requirements for presidential eligibility in Article II and that they didn’t vote for Obama with them in mind”Doc, while I agree with you that the majority couldn’t quote all three requirements, I do contend that the vast majority of voters do know that the President must be a natural born citizen, and that they understand that a NBC is anyone born in the United States.
    As I have mentioned, I remember learning that in Jr. High School and the age requirement , even though I forgot the residency requirements. My 11 year old daughter told me that someone not born in the United States wasn’t eligible to be President. The born in the U.S. part is probably the best known requirement.
    What to me is more telling is that the voters were unconcerned about the knowledge that the Presidents father was not a U.S. Citizen. The voters- and I contend this is based upon their memories of what they learned in school or citizenship classes- did not think that having an alien father disqualified Obama for President.
    I will go even further and say that even if Schwartzenegger now, or Kissinger in his day managed to get on a Presidential ballot, that they would be voted down by voters who know that they are not qualified. Everyone knows the born in the U.S. requirement.

    If Jindal runs in 2012, it will be interesting to see how his eligibility is treated by the media, the far right conservatives and the hardcore birthers.

  221. avatar
    Jimbo August 31, 2010 at 4:14 pm #

    DadBode: The most cogent item to appear in this blog so far:Innocent until proven guilty. It is the standard of American jurisprudence that so many choose to ignore. As a longtime championship debate coach, the burden of proof is always on the prosecuting side, the affirmative, if you will. If one claims Barack Obama is not a citizen, he/she accepts the burden of proof.To date, I have yet to see proof.Conjecture, innuendo and hearsay are not proof.Straw man arguments are not proof.Settled Case Law is precedent.Precedent dictates that he is President.

  222. avatar
    Jimbo August 31, 2010 at 4:24 pm #

    Jimbo:

    DadBode: The most cogent item to appear in this blog so far:Innocent until proven guilty. It is the standard of American jurisprudence that so many choose to ignore. As a longtime championship debate coach, the burden of proof is always on the prosecuting side, the affirmative, if you will. If one claims Barack Obama is not a citizen, he/she accepts the burden of proof.To date, I have yet to see proof.Conjecture, innuendo and hearsay are not proof.Straw man arguments are not proof.Settled Case Law is precedent.Precedent dictates that he is President.

    So when you are responding to a want ad do you tell them ” Prove I’m not qualified” ?

  223. avatar
    Jimbo August 31, 2010 at 4:34 pm #

    Expelliarmus: I’m surprised that so many supposedly intelligent people don’t understand that the President of the United States has no authority whatsoever over state agencies, including the Hawaii Health Department. He can no more “release” the “long form birth certificate” than can any other citizen — it is up to Hawaii state authorities, following the laws and administrative regulations in place in that state, to decide what they will and will not “release”.

    He can give them permission to release it. That is all that’s needed. If it does not exist then they sure have pretended it does. (Just like Saddam and the WMDs)

  224. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 31, 2010 at 4:44 pm #

    Greg: See The Wisdom of Crowds.

    Yes that was an interesting anecdote. There is a web site (the name of which escapes me at the moment) that uses this principle to aggregate guesses on things (the best guess wins a prize as an incentive to guessers). I am not surprised by Galton’s result, but I also know that “conventional wisdom” can be totally wrong sometimes. I don’t think the Galton experiment would have gotten that result if the guessers were completely uninformed about the question they were guessing.

    It reminds me of a fictional anecdote. Supposedly no one had ever seen the Emperor of China. The question arose as to the length of the Emperor’s nose. To solve the problem, a poll of all the Chinese people was taken, asking how long the Emperor’s nose was. The result had a precision of many decimal places. The accuracy is another matter. My guess is that if the experiment were really done, the result would approximate the length of the average Chinese nose, which is the best guess under the circumstances.

    What I think was going on with the Galton experiment was the aggregation of heuristics. That might work pretty well in estimation. I am reminded, on the other hand, of the number of human societies that have gone horribly wrong. Sorry, I’m rambling.

  225. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP August 31, 2010 at 4:45 pm #

    Jimbo: So when you are responding to a want ad do you tell them ” Prove I’m not qualified”?

    It’s up to Congress to check his credentials if there is any doubt, and there is no collective effort on the part of the 219 elected Republicans in Congress, who are sworn to uphold the Constitution, to pursue this matter.

  226. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 31, 2010 at 4:49 pm #

    Jimbo: So when you are responding to a want ad do you tell them ” Prove I’m not qualified” ?

    Ah funny. The problem with your comparison is that after you’ve already looked at the guy’s credentials, his references, called his employers, done a background check and then given him the job you then ask him to continue providing more information that has nothing to do with the job.

  227. avatar
    Jimbo August 31, 2010 at 4:49 pm #

    jamese777: Would you trust a document released by Obama? How would an Obama released long form be any different in terms of credibility with birthers from the already released and verified by the State of Hawaii short form?Perhaps Obama doesn’t want the issue to go away for political reasons.If anybody seriously wants to see the long form, get a subpoena, then Obama will have no impact on the release of the document. A subponeaed document may happen in the Lakin Court Martial if the military judge is inclined to be extremely generous to the defense. More likely will be a telephone deposition taken from Dr. Fukino in Hawaii.

    If we can’t trust documents than let’s see.. how about the doctor’s, nurses, teachers, friends..somebody must have been there… The man is not even 50 years old and not a living soul will come forth to speak on his behalf that was anywhere around when he first saw the light of day. I find that sad. Maybe he’ll put that in his memoirs.

  228. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 31, 2010 at 4:49 pm #

    Jimbo: He can give them permission to release it. That is all that’s needed. If it does not exist then they sure have pretended it does. (Just like Saddam and the WMDs)

    If the long form didn’t exist the COLB wouldn’t exist.

  229. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 31, 2010 at 4:51 pm #

    Jimbo: If we can’t trust documents than let’s see.. how about the doctor’s, nurses, teachers, friends..somebody must have been there… The man is not even 50 years old and not a living soul will come forth to speak on his behalf that was anywhere around when he first saw the light of day. I find that sad. Maybe he’ll put that in his memoirs.

    Tell me Jimbo have you ever worked in a hospital? Do you have any idea how many babies might be delivered on a given day? Now you want people to remember a baby being born 4 decades later after he’s become famous. Do you know all the nurses, assistants, doctors, friends who were there when you were born?

  230. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 31, 2010 at 4:53 pm #

    Mark: I’m actually surprised that so many intelligent people spend so much time defending the Presidents decision not to release the long form birth certificate. Just release the damn thing! I for one would be relieved. At the end of the day, if there is nothing wrong or nothing to hide then why would anyone in their right mind not release the document and be done with it ! Make me go away, please !!!!!!!

    Well in all candor, I’m surprised that so many people of any intelligence level are agitating to see the original copy of a document the essential facts of which have been officially confirmed by the State of Hawaii.

    But really, nobody is forcing you to be here. If you are suffering from some kind of a obsessive compulsive thing, there are drugs for that. What you might find interesting, though, are the comments left on my article “Why are you here?” It will at least help you understand why folks on the “no doubt” side hang out here.

  231. avatar
    jamese777 August 31, 2010 at 4:59 pm #

    “If we can’t trust documents than let’s see.. how about the doctor’s, nurses, teachers, friends..somebody must have been there… The man is not even 50 years old and not a living soul will come forth to speak on his behalf that was anywhere around when he first saw the light of day. I find that sad. Maybe he’ll put that in his memoirs.”

    Well there are those two birth announcements for a son born to Mr. and Mrs. Barack Obama that appeared in the August 13th and August 14th, 1961 editions of the Honolulu Advertiser and the Honolulu Star-Bulliten.

    And there’s this.

  232. avatar
    JoZeppy August 31, 2010 at 5:00 pm #

    Jimbo: So when you are responding to a want ad do you tell them ” Prove I’m not qualified” ?

    That would be a very good analogy, except for the minor details that he already proved his qualifications for the job, and was hired.

  233. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 31, 2010 at 5:00 pm #

    ellid: And I just looked it up and I stand corrected: notaries can indeed swear in a President, based on the Coolidge precedent. I can’t imagine that I ever would be called upon to do such a thing, but if I had to….

    If memory serves me right (it was along time ago), Chester A. Arthur was sworn in by a state court judge in New York. He was later sworn ceremonially by the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court.

  234. avatar
    JoZeppy August 31, 2010 at 5:02 pm #

    Jimbo: He can give them permission to release it. That is all that’s needed. If it does not exist then they sure have pretended it does. (Just like Saddam and the WMDs)

    Really? And what do you base this conclusion on? Please provide us with the Hawaii statute or regulation that says the DOH will publicly release a private document that they no longer issue.

  235. avatar
    jamese777 August 31, 2010 at 5:07 pm #

    Sorry for the bad link. If you want to read the article, just google teacher from kenmore recalls Obama was a focused student.

    [I fixed it, Doc.]

  236. avatar
    Scientist August 31, 2010 at 5:08 pm #

    Jimbo: If we can’t trust documents than let’s see.. how about the doctor’s, nurses, teachers, friends..somebody must have been there… The man is not even 50 years old and not a living soul will come forth to speak on his behalf that was anywhere around when he first saw the light of day.

    i was personally present at Barack Obama’s birth. This is a fact that no one has disputed.

  237. avatar
    Majority Will August 31, 2010 at 5:08 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
    Ah funny.The problem with your comparison is that after you’ve already looked at the guy’s credentials, his references, called his employers, done a background check and then given him the job you then ask him to continue providing more information that has nothing to do with the job.

    Well said. That’s the birther mentality in a nutshell. A very small nutshell.

  238. avatar
    JoZeppy August 31, 2010 at 5:17 pm #

    Jimbo: If we can’t trust documents than let’s see.. how about the doctor’s, nurses, teachers, friends..somebody must have been there… The man is not even 50 years old and not a living soul will come forth to speak on his behalf that was anywhere around when he first saw the light of day. I find that sad. Maybe he’ll put that in his memoirs.

    Let’s for a second think about the sheer stupidity of this comment. My wife and I had a child last year. The OBGyn that delivered our child was 50 years old. The odds of him seeking our child’s 50th birthday are pretty slim. The nurses that cared to my wife and child took care of a wing of women and babies. Odds of them even knowing our names two weeks later, much less 50 years later are slim to none. Not to mention, even the youngest nurse was probably in her early 30s, and that would run her up to her 80s by the time our child will reach 50. So again, chances are a good number of those nurses will be dead 50 years from now. Who else came to visit? Well, both of our parents. I suppose the President’s grandmother might have been there, but she passed away on the eve of the election, so I guess you can’t ask her (but considering much of the birth conspiracy myth is based on her committing fraud to create the legal document that is prima facie evidence of his birth in Hawaii, I’m guessing you wouldn’t believe her anyway). The I suppose there are always the parents, but sadly, both the President’s parents died at an early age, so you can’t ask them.

    Now the question is, why would a remotely sane person be surprised that there is no one that was around who remembers when the President was born 50 years ago(although this is also inaccruate since there was the story of the Doctor who remembered the President’s birth, but my recollection was it was a hearsay story by someone the doctor told the story to, so this would be inadmissiable in court).

  239. avatar
    Sean August 31, 2010 at 5:20 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
    Tell me Jimbo have you ever worked in a hospital?Do you have any idea how many babies might be delivered on a given day?Now you want people to remember a baby being born 4 decades later after he’s become famous.Do you know all the nurses, assistants, doctors, friends who were there when you were born?

    That’s why they have birth announcements in newspapers.

  240. avatar
    jamese777 August 31, 2010 at 5:22 pm #

    JoZeppy: Let’s for a second think about the sheer stupidity of this comment. My wife and I had a child last year. The OBGyn that delivered our child was 50 years old. The odds of him seeking our child’s 50th birthday are pretty slim. The nurses that cared to my wife and child took care of a wing of women and babies. Odds of them even knowing our names two weeks later, much less 50 years later are slim to none. Not to mention, even the youngest nurse was probably in her early 30s, and that would run her up to her 80s by the time our child will reach 50. So again, chances are a good number of those nurses will be dead 50 years from now. Who else came to visit? Well, both of our parents. I suppose the President’s grandmother might have been there, but she passed away on the eve of the election, so I guess you can’t ask her (but considering much of the birth conspiracy myth is based on her committing fraud to create the legal document that is prima facie evidence of his birth in Hawaii, I’m guessing you wouldn’t believe her anyway). The I suppose there are always the parents, but sadly, both the President’s parents died at an early age, so you can’t ask them.Now the question is, why would a remotely sane person be surprised that there is no one that was around who remembers when the President was born 50 years ago(although this is also inaccruate since there was the story of the Doctor who remembered the President’s birth, but my recollection was it was a hearsay story by someone the doctor told the story to, so this would be inadmissiable in court).

    Except there is that lady who now lives in Buffalo, New York’s suburbs who had a conversation with Dr. West who delivered Barack Hussein Obama.
    See the link in my post (jamese777) at 4:49 pm today.

  241. avatar
    misha August 31, 2010 at 5:23 pm #

    Scientist: i was personally present at Barack Obama’s birth. This is a fact that no one has disputed.

    I want to confirm that Scientist WAS present at Barack Obama’s birth.

  242. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 31, 2010 at 5:27 pm #

    misha: I want to confirm that Scientist WAS present at Barack Obama’s birth.

    I want a confirmation of Misha’s confirmation of Scientist being present.

  243. avatar
    Scientist August 31, 2010 at 5:27 pm #

    misha: I want to confirm that Scientist WAS present at Barack Obama’s birth.

    Of course, we both were. Then we went to the luau afterwards. I demand that any birther posting prove we were not there.

  244. avatar
    Ellid August 31, 2010 at 5:28 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    If memory serves me right (it was along time ago), Chester A. Arthur was sworn in by a state court judge in New York. He was later sworn ceremonially by the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court.

    Both Arthur and Coolidge were also sworn in when they got to Washington just in case someone raised the issue of a state appointee swearing in a federal official, just as Obama took the oath a second time after the Chief Justice flubbed the words. In all cases the President was still the President but they wanted to head off any possible challenge.

    The exception to this is President Johnson, who was sworn in by Judge Sarah Hughes aboard Air Force One after President Kennedy’s death. Judge Hughes was a *federal* judge, so there was no question that she was legally qualified to administer the oath of office…but just in case they checked with the Justice Department (Nicholas Katzenbach in this case because, well….)

  245. avatar
    misha August 31, 2010 at 5:37 pm #

    Scientist: Then we went to the luau afterwards.

    There’s only one thing about that luau. I’ve never seen an apple served that way before.

    Thank you. I’ll be here all week. Don’t forget to tip your waitress, and drive safely.

  246. avatar
    Sean August 31, 2010 at 5:49 pm #

    Ellid:
    Both Arthur and Coolidge were also sworn in when they got to Washington just in case someone raised the issue of a state appointee swearing in a federal official, just as Obama took the oath a second time after the Chief Justice flubbed the words.In all cases the President was still the President but they wanted to head off any possible challenge.The exception to this is President Johnson, who was sworn in by Judge Sarah Hughes aboard Air Force One after President Kennedy’s death.Judge Hughes was a *federal* judge, so there was no question that she was legally qualified to administer the oath of office…but just in case they checked with the Justice Department (Nicholas Katzenbach in this case because, well….)

    Just imagine if Obama didn’t swear in a 2nd time!

  247. avatar
    Jimbo August 31, 2010 at 6:14 pm #

    JoZeppy: That would be a very good analogy, except for the minor details that he already proved his qualifications for the job, and was hired.

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Tell me Jimbo have you ever worked in a hospital? Do you have any idea how many babies might be delivered on a given day? Now you want people to remember a baby being born 4 decades later after he’s become famous. Do you know all the nurses, assistants, doctors, friends who were there when you were born?

    I am older than the president and there are people on the planet that can prove with photos and other contacts that I existed in a certain city and year. If such is available for this fellow I can assume that Chris Matthews refuses to be the first to break the story.

  248. avatar
    Scientist August 31, 2010 at 6:17 pm #

    Jimbo: I am older than the president and there are people on the planet that can prove with photos and other contacts that I existed in a certain city and year.

    Misha and I have photos of Barack’s birth. i would be happy to show you them. We also have photos from the luau, but you can’t see those. What Misha did with that pineapple is no one’s busines but his.

  249. avatar
    Jimbo August 31, 2010 at 6:24 pm #

    Scientist: Misha and I have photos of Barack’s birth. i would be happy to show you them. We also have photos from the luau, but you can’t see those. What Misha did with that pineapple is no one’s busines but his.

    I look forward to seeing your exclusive with Anderson Cooper. Think of it. You’ll be famous.. .

  250. avatar
    misha August 31, 2010 at 6:24 pm #

    Jimbo: I am older than the president and there are people on the planet that can prove with photos and other contacts that I existed in a certain city and year. If such is available for this fellow I can assume that Chris Matthews refuses to be the first to break the story.

    Scientist: Misha and I have photos of Barack’s birth. i would be happy to show you them.

    Check out this!

  251. avatar
    Scientist August 31, 2010 at 6:30 pm #

    Jimbo: look forward to seeing your exclusive with Anderson Cooper. Think of it. You’ll be famous.. .

    I already am. I am only interested in cash. Cooper and Matthews don’t pay for interviews. Do you? If so, contact me. If not, get lost.

  252. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 31, 2010 at 7:01 pm #

    Jimbo: I am older than the president and there are people on the planet that can prove with photos and other contacts that I existed in a certain city and year. If such is available for this fellow I can assume that Chris Matthews refuses to be the first to break the story.

    Which people can prove from memory that you were born where you were born the exact time and date. I’m talking non-family here. Do you have anything or are you just talking out of your ass? Again you’re not basing this on reality. Doctors do several deliveries a day several days a week over a 40 year period. Do you honestly think any doctor is going to be able to remember one specific child?

  253. avatar
    misha August 31, 2010 at 7:10 pm #

    Jimbo: I am older than the president and there are people on the planet that can prove with photos and other contacts that I existed in a certain city and year.

    Here is my child’s photo album.

  254. avatar
    BatGuano August 31, 2010 at 7:13 pm #

    Jimbo: …..that can prove with photos….

    like a 4 year old playing in the surf with his gandpa or wearing a shirt that says “hawaii” ?

    as for myself, i’m younger than the president but would be hard pressed to find someone to vouch for my US birth. my parents are dead, my grandparents are dead, the doctor is dead and our oldest family friends didn’t meet me till i was 2. even most of the baby photos i have of myself were taken in the UK and mexico.

  255. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 31, 2010 at 7:16 pm #

    misha:
    Here is my child’s photo album.

    Nice digs Misha

  256. avatar
    Jimbo August 31, 2010 at 7:20 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Which people can prove from memory that you were born where you were born the exact time and date. I’m talking non-family here. Do you have anything or are you just talking out of your ass? Again you’re not basing this on reality. Doctors do several deliveries a day several days a week over a 40 year period. Do you honestly think any doctor is going to be able to remember one specific child?

    Since you have decided to be rude my only response is…You’ll find out. Tell Barry to go easy on the salt.

  257. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 31, 2010 at 7:23 pm #

    Jimbo:
    Since you have decided to be rude my only response is…You’ll find out.Tell Barry to go easy on the salt.

    Rude? Hardly. So instead of answering questions you get all uptight and wish harm on the president. That’s nice. Are you sure you’re not 2 years old?

    You just admitted in your little bit above that you have no one who has direct knowledge that is alive that can attest first hand to your birth yet you ask it of Obama. Photos are not direct witnesses which is what you were asking from Obama

  258. avatar
    Majority Will August 31, 2010 at 7:43 pm #

    Jimbo:
    Since you have decided to be rude my only response is…You’ll find out.Tell Barry to go easy on the salt.

    Who is Barry and why are you here?

  259. avatar
    BatGuano August 31, 2010 at 7:53 pm #

    Jimbo: Since you have decided to be rude…

    what part was rude ?

  260. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 31, 2010 at 7:59 pm #

    BatGuano:
    what part was rude ?

    The part where I asked him questions. Remember birthers don’t have to answer any questions

  261. avatar
    Northland10 August 31, 2010 at 8:01 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Doctors do several deliveries a day several days a week over a 40 year period. Do you honestly think any doctor is going to be able to remember one specific child?

    I love how the birthers claim that people should remember everything and everybody about a person, no matter how long ago (or where we left those old pictures). If the doctor the delivered Obama is still alive and was not just out of residency, he would be, at minimum, in mid to upper 80s. Now many do quite well at that age. As for me, however, I would be content to remember who I am.

    Even if the doctor is alive and can even remember the event, do you think he wants to open himself up to the constant annoyances from birthers and the press. Delivering a baby almost 50 years ago should not require them to be a public figure now.

  262. avatar
    Scientist August 31, 2010 at 8:06 pm #

    Jimbo: Since you have decided to be rude my only response is…

    Rude is when a fellow human says he was born somewhere (the place where his parents lived at the time of his birth) and has valid documents to prove it and you cast aspersions on the basis of zero evidence to the contrary. That’s rude. Birthers are rude.

  263. avatar
    Sean August 31, 2010 at 8:16 pm #

    misha:
    Here is my child’s photo album.

    I love your child! I have a lynx-point siamese named Bill.

  264. avatar
    Majority Will August 31, 2010 at 8:19 pm #

    I’ll bet the birther bigots freak out when our President gives a speech from the Oval Office.

  265. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP August 31, 2010 at 8:36 pm #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP:
    It’s up to Congress to check his credentials if there is any doubt, and there is no collective effort on the part of the 219 elected Republicans in Congress, who are sworn to uphold the Constitution, to pursue this matter.

    And let me just add that the 219 Republicans in Congress have been looking for “Obama’s Waterloo” for more than a year and a half yet have totally ignored this issue which, if there was any truth to it, would fit the bill.

  266. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 31, 2010 at 8:50 pm #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP: And let me just add that the 219 Republicans in Congress have been looking for “Obama’s Waterloo” for more than a year and a half yet have totally ignored this issue which, if there was any truth to it, would fit the bill.

    They all know that Obama has that long form in his back pocket to pull out if they ever stick their necks out too far.

  267. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 31, 2010 at 8:52 pm #

    Majority Will I’ll bet the birther bigots freak out when our President gives a speech from the Oval Office

    He had the audacity to change the carpet!

  268. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 31, 2010 at 8:57 pm #

    Sean: Just imagine if Obama didn’t swear in a 2nd time!

    Just proves that President Obama respects the Constitution.

  269. avatar
    Majority Will August 31, 2010 at 9:05 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    He had the audacity to change the carpet!

    I had hoped. And he changed the wallpaper!

  270. avatar
    sfjeff August 31, 2010 at 9:05 pm #

    I am two years older than the President. The only person alive who was present at my birth is my mother. A good witness you say? Heck she was drugged up at the time- I mean I am confident that she is my mother and I was born in that hospital but why the heck would you take her testimony over that of a Birth Certificate issued by my State?

  271. avatar
    Majority Will August 31, 2010 at 9:07 pm #

    sfjeff: I am two years older than the President. The only person alive who was present at my birth is my mother. A good witness you say? Heck she was drugged up at the time- I mean I am confident that she is my mother and I was born in that hospital but why the heck would you take her testimony over that of a Birth Certificate issued by my State?

    So you took off the hospital bracelet or did you just finally outgrow it?

  272. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP August 31, 2010 at 9:25 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    They all know that Obama has that long form in his back pocket to pull out if they ever stick their necks out too far.

    Yeah, the “Waterloo” would be on them. lol

  273. avatar
    Sean August 31, 2010 at 9:26 pm #

    sfjeff: I am two years older than the President. The only person alive who was present at my birth is my mother. A good witness you say? Heck she was drugged up at the time- I mean I am confident that she is my mother and I was born in that hospital but why the heck would you take her testimony over that of a Birth Certificate issued by my State?

    You might have been rushed to Kenya, born and then brought back. It’s possible, and that’s all I need to make up my mind, Jeff the Kenyan.

  274. avatar
    Majority Will August 31, 2010 at 9:33 pm #

    Sean:
    You might have been rushed to Kenya, born and then brought back. It’s possible, and that’s all I need to make up my mind, Jeff the Kenyan.

    And when he makes that atrocious noise while eating soup again, I shall be forced to call Jeff the USLURPER ! ! ! USLURPER ! ! USLURPER ! !

  275. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 31, 2010 at 9:45 pm #

    james777: Except there is that lady who now lives in Buffalo, New York’s suburbs who had a conversation with Dr. West who delivered Barack Hussein Obama.

    Mrs. Nelson didn’t actually say West delivered Obama. This was clarified in a follow-up interview. She only talked to West about the baby’s unusual name (West was practicing at Kapi’olani at the time). The Buffalo News reporter embellished the story. While I personally think it likely that Dr. Rodney T. West did deliver Barack Obama, the evidence is only circumstantial. There is a picture of Dr. West here from my January 2001 article.

  276. avatar
    Northland10 August 31, 2010 at 9:49 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: He had the audacity to change the carpet!

    Now there’s change I can believe in. I was so hoping to get rid of the Bush Carpet as I never cared for it.

  277. avatar
    DadBode August 31, 2010 at 10:04 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    So how does the argument “everybody is lying” get judged?

    He/she who proves beyond a doubt that “everybody is lying” regarding a particular contention, succeeds in destroying the contention.

    No proof by one who makes the assertion? Then the status quo prevails.

    “Everybody is lying”? or
    “Everybody but me is lying”?
    Do I hear some paranoia?

  278. avatar
    Majority Will August 31, 2010 at 10:09 pm #

    Northland10:
    Now there’s change I can believe in.I was so hoping to get rid of the Bush Carpet as I never cared for it.

    Because Bush’s carpet didn’t match the drapes?

  279. avatar
    DadBode August 31, 2010 at 10:12 pm #

    Jimbo: So when you are responding to a want ad do you tell them ” Prove I’m not qualified”?

    Lack of causal nexus here.
    Innocence vs. guilt as a standard of American jurisprudence cannot be successfully equated with (generally or specifically) qualified vs. (generally or specifically) unqualified.
    Jump shifts in argumentation lose.

  280. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 31, 2010 at 10:23 pm #

    DadBode:
    He/she who proves beyond a doubt that “everybody is lying” regarding a particular contention, succeeds indestroying the contention.No proof by one who makes the assertion? Then the status quo prevails.
    “Everybody is lying”? or
    “Everybody but me is lying”?
    Do I hear some paranoia?

    My mother has that problem. The church is out to get her my dad throws at her the argument “If multiple people are telling you that something is a certain way and you’re the only one saying something is this way not everyone can be wrong.”

    Its a typical psychosis that paranoid schizophrenics go through.

  281. avatar
    Ellid August 31, 2010 at 10:27 pm #

    @Misha – what a lovely kitty! I have a flamepoint mix named Malfoy who has the intelligence of a stump, but he’s quite lovely.

  282. avatar
    Ellid August 31, 2010 at 10:30 pm #

    Majority Will: I’ll bet the birther bigots freak out when our President gives a speech from the Oval Office.

    Some of them are already freaking out about him redecorating when people are out of work, oil spill, blah blah blah. Somehow they seem unaware that a) EVERY President redecorates the Oval Office, b) not one dime of taxpayer money went to it, c) Bush’s rug and draperies likely are needed for his own Presidential library, and d) Bush installed HIS tchotchkes when we had a two front war and were dealing with the aftermath of 9/11.

    The double standard is really getting a bit much.

  283. avatar
    Expelliarmus August 31, 2010 at 11:15 pm #

    Jimbo:
    He can give them permission to release it. That is all that’s needed.

    If their policy is NOT to release any document other than the COLB, then it doesn’t matter what “permission” someone gives. If they interpret state law and/or administrative regs as either prohibiting the “release” of that document or allowing them to refuse to provide it… then “permission” doesn’t change anything.

  284. avatar
    jamese777 August 31, 2010 at 11:19 pm #

    jamese777: Sorry for the bad link. If you want to read the article, just google teacher from kenmore recalls Obama was a focused student.[I fixed it, Doc.]

    Thanks so much, Doc.

  285. avatar
    jamese777 August 31, 2010 at 11:24 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Mrs. Nelson didn’t actually say West delivered Obama. This was clarified in a follow-up interview. She only talked to West about the baby’s unusual name (West was practicing at Kapi’olani at the time). The Buffalo News reporter embellished the story. While I personally think it likely that Dr. Rodney T. West did deliver Barack Obama, the evidence is only circumstantial. There is a picture of Dr. West here from my January 2001 article.

    A doctor who remembers that the father was the first black student at University of Hawaii is good enough for me but nothing is good enough for birthers.

  286. avatar
    katahdin August 31, 2010 at 11:45 pm #

    Jimbo: If we can’t trust documents than let’s see.. how about the doctor’s, nurses, teachers, friends..somebody must have been there… The man is not even 50 years old and not a living soul will come forth to speak on his behalf that was anywhere around when he first saw the light of day. I find that sad. Maybe he’ll put that in his memoirs.

    That’s untrue. Congressman Neil Abercrombie, who was friends with President Obama’s parents in college, has known the president since he was born.

  287. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 1, 2010 at 1:11 am #

    Northland10: Now there’s change I can believe in. I was so hoping to get rid of the Bush Carpet as I never cared for it.

    Laura Bush designed the old carpet.

  288. avatar
    joeymac September 1, 2010 at 2:41 am #

    Hulu said:

    Mark,I hope you didn’t come here looking for understand. All questions regarding Obama are met with ridicule.They don’t know who submitted Obama’s birth report. …

    You are absolutely correct that I don’t care who submitted Obama’s birth report–be it his mother, grandmother, the mailman, or a household boarder. It makes absolutely no difference to Obama’s eligibility. The fact remains that the Hawaiian Registrar of Births accepted the evidence presented, and therefore, the matter is settled legally.

    There is no “proof” that he was born in Hawaii. All we have is that someone filed a report. …

    For that matter, all the proof we have for anyone’s birth, is that someone filed a report. That includes GHWB, WJC, Shrub, and Reagan (oops, maybe not Reagan).

    The only reason Obama will not permit the source for his COLB to be released, and end the debate in the eyes of most, is that he knows the source would not be considered to be reliable.

    That is an oxymoronic statement. You claim that releasing the birth records would “end the debate,” yet, you follow up with “he knows the source would not be considered reliable.” Therein, you have telegraphed your fallback position if the records were made available. If I were Obama, I would say “Why bother?”

  289. avatar
    Keith September 1, 2010 at 6:49 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): “If multiple people are telling you that something is a certain way and you’re the only one saying something is this way not everyone can be wrong.”

    Tell that to Barry…

    Goldwater that is.

    for those who came in late, after being crushed by Johnson in 1964 he said: “27 Million Americans can’t be wrong”.

    But then, what does that say about the 44 Million who voted for Johnson?

  290. avatar
    ellid September 1, 2010 at 7:13 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Laura Bush designed the old carpet.

    I never minded the Bush carpet. I figure it’s the President’s office and the President’s choice, and was expecting to see a new look around now anyway. Why the Right is getting so bent out of shape is beyond me.

  291. avatar
    Northland10 September 1, 2010 at 7:39 am #

    ellid:
    I never minded the Bush carpet.I figure it’s the President’s office and the President’s choice, and was expecting to see a new look around now anyway.Why the Right is getting so bent out of shape is beyond me.

    I agree that the President can decorate it any way he pleases. Thus my dislike for the previous version by Mrs. Bush had nothing to do with any political or personal dislike but just a silly decorating opinion. I am amazed how people can actually get all uptight over the current change. If I recall, Obama held off for a while because of the perception of redocorating at the lowest point of the recession.

  292. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 1, 2010 at 8:05 am #

    Northland10: If I recall, Obama held off for a while because of the perception of redecorating at the lowest point of the recession.

    We’d be out of this recession if folks and businesses with money spent more of it on redecoration or whatever, rather than hoarding it in fear. One of the features of the Obama carpet is that it has inspirational phrases woven into it around the circular margin, one of which from Franklin Roosevelt: The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself. Very apt.

  293. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 1, 2010 at 8:15 am #

    joeymac: For that matter, all the proof we have for anyone’s birth, is that someone filed a report. That includes GHWB, WJC, Shrub, and Reagan (oops, maybe not Reagan).

    My father was born in 1916, and not in a hospital. His birth was not registered until he was an adult, about the time he was drafted into the US Army to fight in the Pacific in World War II. His certificate is attested to solely by the testimony of his mother. There’s not a damned thing wrong with that.

    Normal people who have an ounce of decency in them do not insult members of other peoples’ families without a solid reason to do so. Nevertheless, the birthers call Obama’s family liars and frauds just to excuse their warped world view.

  294. avatar
    JoZeppy September 1, 2010 at 9:56 am #

    Northland10: Now there’s change I can believe in. I was so hoping to get rid of the Bush Carpet as I never cared for it.

    Actually, there was a story about Jerry Brown being governor of California back in the day. The carpet in the governor’s office was worn and damaged, but he refused to have it repaired. His belief was that if someone came into his office looking for money for a pet project, seeing his refusal to use the state’s money to pretty up his office might make them think twice about how their request would be received by the governor.

  295. avatar
    HORUS September 1, 2010 at 12:31 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): All this is code for the underlying Dr. Laura rant.

    BINGO!

  296. avatar
    HORUS September 1, 2010 at 12:35 pm #

    Northland10: I am amazed how people can actually get all uptight over the current change.

    They are so consumed with Racism any excuse is as good as the next to bash Obama.

  297. avatar
    Sean September 1, 2010 at 1:19 pm #

    HORUS:
    BINGO!

    About 3 days before the Dr. Laura rant, I mentioned to a friend that with the direction Glenn Beckand Rush was going, I was waiting for one of them to feel comfortable enough to say the N-word.

    Dr. Laura beat them to it.