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Why the birth certificate?

This is something that’s been bugging me for some time.

I remember seeing (but can’t find now) a comment attributed to an Obama campaign staffer that said the campaign had obtained several birth certificates for Senator Obama in 2007. When the issue began to be raised seriously about where Obama was born, the campaign posted the famous scan of the 2007 Certification of Live Birth.

When questions were raised about where McCain was born, a McCain campaign staffer showed McCain’s birth certificate to Michael Dobbs of the Washington Post.

The fact that two presidential campaigns had birth certificates for their candidates at the ready suggests to me that the campaigns thought they needed them. Why is that? The most likely answer is that they did need them, but if so, what for?

125 Responses to Why the birth certificate?

  1. avatar
    Scientist August 17, 2010 at 7:43 pm #

    Wouldn’t Secretaries of State have the discretion to ask to see it before placing a candidate on the ballot? They don’t have to and probably rarely, if ever, do, but I believe they would have the right to do so.

  2. avatar
    misha August 17, 2010 at 7:51 pm #

    “The most likely answer is that they did need them, but if so, what for?”

    IRS audit.

  3. avatar
    G August 17, 2010 at 8:38 pm #

    Scientist: Wouldn’t Secretaries of State have the discretion to ask to see it before placing a candidate on the ballot?They don’t have to and probably rarely, if ever, do, but I believe they would have the right to do so.

    Agreed. I’m sure this was the reason. Also, we cannot say that various SoS didn’t ask for and inspect such documents from the candidates as part of their ballot vetting process. We simply aren’t privy to see all documents they receive and inspect. That is their job, simple as that.

    Same reason that I had to show my documents when renewing my license at the BMV today, but nobody else has a right to see them or be made aware that I had to provide them.

  4. avatar
    jay August 17, 2010 at 8:46 pm #

    I don’t think he did it for any proof that he is a NBC, his passport — which he has since a young child — would have done that. In fact given that he has had passport since he was a young child he never had a need of a birth certificate as the passport would serve as proof of identity and age.

    I suspect it was done so they could release it to demonstrate his middle name was not Mohammed. You can find references on the web before his official announcement that his middle name as Mohammed. I think they realized the issue was not going way and sent away for a birth certificate and then just waited until it seemed “necessary” to release it. Just another reason why he wound up elected — great foresight and planning.

  5. avatar
    BatGuano August 17, 2010 at 8:51 pm #

    G: Also, we cannot say that various SoS didn’t ask for and inspect such documents from the candidates as part of their ballot vetting process.

    always been curious if anyone has contacted all 50 SoS to see if a COLB was required.

  6. avatar
    G August 17, 2010 at 9:20 pm #

    jay: I don’t think he did it for any proof that he is a NBC, his passport — which he has since a young child — would have done that.In factgiven that he has had passport since he was a young child he never had a need of a birth certificate as the passport would serve as proof of identity and age.I suspect it was done so they could release it to demonstrate his middle name was not Mohammed.You can find references on the web before his official announcement that his middle name as Mohammed.I think they realized the issue was not going way and sent away for a birth certificate and then just waited until it seemed “necessary” to release it.Just another reason why he wound up elected — great foresight and planning.

    Except that he requested the BC in 2007 and the Mohammed rumors nonsense didn’t start until early 2008 and then took several months to rise to a level of even considering a campaign response.

    The most likely answer is he requested several copies in 2007 because that is when he officially started his campaign and wanted to be prepared with any necessary documentation they might ask him for during his filings with each state.

  7. avatar
    Scientist August 17, 2010 at 9:34 pm #

    jay: I suspect it was done so they could release it to demonstrate his middle name was not Mohammed

    His passport shows his middle name as Hussein, so i doubt that’s why he needed the BC. I believe it was to show Secs of State if asked, since a passport only proves citizenship, not natural born,

    Incidentally, I never quite understood why Mohammed would be more politically toxic than Hussein as a middle name. Both are Arab/Islamic in origin.

  8. avatar
    jay August 17, 2010 at 9:51 pm #

    The Mohammed rumors started very early. I personally heard about it shortly after he announced in my local coffee shop. I would be surprised if his campaign hadn’t picked up on it, he campaign org was very sensitive to anything about his “connections” to Islam. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if they had created hundreds of possible scenarios and how to deal with it. The Obama campaign learned a lot from the swift boating of Kerry.

    For instance take a look at http://www.buckeyestateblog.com/barack_obama_announcing_now — there is a reference to a woman calling into show wanting to know why he changed his middle name to Mohammed.

    Admittedly it didn’t catch fire until later, but it was out of the gate very quickly.

  9. avatar
    G August 17, 2010 at 10:37 pm #

    jay: The Mohammed rumors started very early.I personally heard about it shortly after he announced in my local coffee shop.I would be surprised if his campaign hadn’t picked up on it, he campaign org was very sensitive to anything about his “connections” to Islam.In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if they had created hundreds of possible scenarios and how to deal with it.The Obama campaign learned a lot from the swift boating of Kerry.For instance take a look at http://www.buckeyestateblog.com/barack_obama_announcing_now — there is a reference to a woman calling into show wanting to know why he changed his middle name to Mohammed.Admittedly it didn’t catch fire until later, but it was out of the gate very quickly.

    Thanks for that info & link, Jay. Wow. That reference was a whole year before I had ever heard of it (and I’m also from Ohio) and thought I was following all of the campaigns rather closely at the time.

    So, obviously the Mohamed rumors and Muslim claims go further back than I had thought. I still think the 2007 timing of his BC requests had their primary basis in gathering documentation for if it was needed to get on the ballots.

  10. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 17, 2010 at 11:20 pm #

    Scientist: Wouldn’t Secretaries of State have the discretion to ask to see it before placing a candidate on the ballot?

    I think some might. Recall that Eldridge Cleaver was denied access to some state ballots (Hawaii and California for example) because he was ineligible.

  11. avatar
    Mary Brown August 18, 2010 at 12:05 am #

    The Mohammed thing might be just a side issue. It is silly. My nephew, whose dad is Pakistani, has that middle name. I guess I just don’t get it. Maybe they had an idea that Obama’s rather different family history might be used just as our corrupt politics uses all kinds of issues that have little to do with the problems we are facing.

  12. avatar
    Loren August 18, 2010 at 12:41 am #

    I’ve always felt certain that birth certificates were simply ordered for the contingency of state qualification standards. I certainly am not familiar with the ballot access laws of all fifty states, but it wouldn’t surprise me if some required some supporting documentation, either for the general election or the primary. If you’re running a high-stakes Presidential campaign, the last thing you want to have happen is finding yourself needing a document on short notice and being unable to procure it in time.

    Birthers, on the other hand, tend to automatically assume that none of the states required anything at all. Just because that’s convenient to their narrative.

    Also, with regard to the middle name ‘Muhammed’ rumor, while you can indeed find random, scattered instances of that dating back well into 2007, none of those managed to achieve meme status. They never caught on as rumors, and tended to be quickly corrected (and even acknowledged) as mistakes. Instead, the Muhammed middle name rumor first got traction starting with a popular e-mail forward from December 2007, which started achieving significant online presence in early January 2008. The rumor then enjoyed an even greater resurgence a few months later with the Loren & Celeste Davis email forward in March/April 2008.

  13. avatar
    G August 18, 2010 at 12:52 am #

    Loren: Also, with regard to the middle name ‘Muhammed’ rumor, while you can indeed find random, scattered instances of that dating back well into 2007, none of those managed to achieve meme status. They never caught on as rumors, and tended to be quickly corrected (and even acknowledged) as mistakes. Instead, the Muhammed middle name rumor first got traction starting with a popular e-mail forward from December 2007, which started achieving significant online presence in early January 2008. The rumor then enjoyed an even greater resurgence a few months later with the Loren & Celeste Davis email forward in March/April 2008.

    That’s the time frame I was familiar with pretty much. I recall hearing some isolated mentions as early as Jan 2008, but it wasn’t until around March/April 2008 that it had picked up enough steam in the urban legend / rumor mill to start to rise towards having a campaign dignify it by commenting on it. I think I’ve heard that it was Mark Penn’s operatives that were mainly behind pushing it in those early months of 2008.

  14. avatar
    AnotherBird August 18, 2010 at 5:42 am #

    Why the birth certificate?

    The most likely answer is that they did need them, but if so, what for?

    It seems more like a preparatory move for both inquiries from the media and requests from state officials. Both Obama and McCain are people who are running for president of America. They need the simplest document to demonstrate that they are citizens by birth, and passports don’t do that. Birth certificates allow people to check with the issuing agency to verify if the document is authentic. However, unfortunately they don’t prove that they belong to the person who possess them.

    American politics is a “blood sport.” We have Clinton’s affairs. Bush junior’s military record. McCain’s child. It isn’t the truth but what voters believe.

    Serious candidates have to be prepared. This includes preparing your speeches, your talking points, and honing your debating skills. Just as much as the advisers want to candidate to win, and would look make sure that everything is ready. This will start with 3 questions, and the birth certificate answers 2 of them.

  15. avatar
    Bovril August 18, 2010 at 6:10 am #

    More than likely the BC, along with various other potentially useful documents, marriage certs, tax returns etc, were sourced on the principle of “better to have and not need than need and not have”

  16. avatar
    James August 18, 2010 at 9:46 am #

    I think the BC’s were kept for inquiry and documenatation purposes. The problem with Obama was actually the release of his BC. Early in the campaign, many started to question Obama’s contention that he was born in Hawaii. The Obama camp released the COLB which showed that Obama was born in Hawaii. The problem with the COLB is that is lack any ‘real’ evidence that Obama was actually born in Hawaii such as the hospital or doctor’s name. While this would really be of no concern for anyone, when people started to investigate and discovered cirumstancial evidence that pointed to a Kenyan birth and the lax and loose laws regarded obtaining a COLB in 1961, people wanted to see the long-form BC.

    The problem is that Hawaii DOH says the long-form BC is suppose to exist.

    The COLB serves as Prima Facie Evidence of his Hawain birth.

    The problem is the existance that of the long form BC which Obama absolutely refuses to release under financial sanction and personal threats to individuals would allow the Primia Facie evidence of the COLB to be brought into question.

  17. avatar
    HORUS August 18, 2010 at 10:41 am #

    Mohammed is the most common given name in many countries.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_common_given_name

  18. avatar
    Majority Will August 18, 2010 at 10:43 am #

    HORUS: Mohammed is the most common given name in many countries.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_common_given_name

    What’s the most common taken name?

  19. avatar
    Sean August 18, 2010 at 1:05 pm #

    Majority Will:
    What’s the most common taken name?

    McLovin

  20. avatar
    Rickey August 18, 2010 at 1:14 pm #

    Speaking of birth certificates, the Illinois State Officers Electoral Board has smacked down Sharon Meroni. The transcript is here:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/36035299/MERONI-OBJECTIONS-TO-CANDIDATES-OFFICIAL-TRANSCRIPT-Meroni-Objections-Hearing-8-6-2010-FoPJ

  21. avatar
    Majority Will August 18, 2010 at 1:18 pm #

    Sean:
    McLovin

    Good answer! It sure beats Mangina.

  22. avatar
    Arthur August 18, 2010 at 1:18 pm #

    Sean:
    McLovin

    Score!

    On internet dating sites, I’ve found that the most common taken name among women who are forty and over is some variation of “prettylady4u.” Not that I know anything about internet dating sites . . . or being over forty.

  23. avatar
    Majority Will August 18, 2010 at 1:28 pm #

    Arthur:
    Score!
    On internet dating sites, I’ve found that the most common taken name among women who are forty and over is some variation of “prettylady4u.”Not that I know anything about internet dating sites . . . or being over forty.

    But you are pretty? 🙂

  24. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 18, 2010 at 2:48 pm #

    James: I think the BC’s were kept for inquiry and documenatation purposes.The problem with Obama was actually the release of his BC.Early in the campaign, many started to question Obama’s contention that he was born in Hawaii.The Obama camp released the COLB which showed that Obama was born in Hawaii.The problem with the COLB is that is lack any real’ evidence that Obama was actually born in Hawaii such as the hospital or doctor’s name.While this would really be of no concern for anyone, when people started to investigate and discovered cirumstancial evidence that pointed to a Kenyan birth and the lax and loose laws regarded obtaining a COLB in 1961, people wanted to see the long-form BC.The problem is that Hawaii DOH says the long-form BC is suppose to exist.The COLB serves as Prima Facie Evidence of his Hawain birth.The problem is the existance that of the long form BC which Obama absolutely refuses to release under financial sanction and personal threats to individuals would allow the Primia Facie evidence of the COLB to be brought into question.

    I take exception to two remarks from James not supported by the facts:

    “lax and loose laws regarded obtaining a COLB in 1961”

    I have the Hawaii laws from 1959 (that cover 1961) there is noting lax about them or different from the legislation in other states.

    “Obama absolutely refuses to release under financial sanction financial sanction and personal threats personal threats to individuals”

    I don’t what this is supposed to refer to. When has Obama ever threatened anyone about the release of his birth certificate?

  25. avatar
    Joey August 18, 2010 at 2:55 pm #

    James: I think the BC’s were kept for inquiry and documenatation purposes. The problem with Obama was actually the release of his BC. Early in the campaign, many started to question Obama’s contention that he was born in Hawaii. The Obama camp released the COLB which showed that Obama was born in Hawaii. The problem with the COLB is that is lack any real’ evidence that Obama was actually born in Hawaii such as the hospital or doctor’s name. While this would really be of no concern for anyone, when people started to investigate and discovered cirumstancial evidence that pointed to a Kenyan birth and the lax and loose laws regarded obtaining a COLB in 1961, people wanted to see the long-form BC.The problem is that Hawaii DOH says the long-form BC is suppose to exist.The COLB serves as Prima Facie Evidence of his Hawain birth.The problem is the existance that of the long form BC which Obama absolutely refuses to release under financial sanction and personal threats to individuals would allow the Primia Facie evidence of the COLB to be brought into question.

    Obama has no power to release his long form birth certificate. The state of Hawaii only issues the short form since they went paperless in 2001 and after Obama’s experience with the FighttheSmears.com COLB, it is unlikely that those who question Obama’s Hawaii birth would accept a long form released by him as being valid anyway.

    If anyone really needs to see the original, long form, vault copy 1961 Certificate of Live Birth, they can go to a judge, get a subpoena and have it released without Obama being involved in the release at all. In my humble opinion, that is the appropriate way to release the original birth record, via subpoena.

  26. avatar
    Majority Will August 18, 2010 at 3:17 pm #

    “Hospital or doctor’s name”

    Birtherspeak for “give us more dirt on the President and let a few lunatics move the goalposts on a non-issue because they are deranged narcissists with zero respect for U.S. law who have an obsession with harassing anyone connected to the President.

    What’s the birth hospital for any President before Carter? There aren’t any?

    BIRTHER FAIL.

    Where is the requirement for the name of the birth hospital and doctor in the Presidential eligibility section of the Constitution? It’s not in there?

    BIRTHER FAIL.

  27. avatar
    sfjeff August 18, 2010 at 3:51 pm #

    “Early in the campaign, many started to question Obama’s contention that he was born in Hawaii.”

    Actually there were wide spread email campaigns not only about whether he was born in America, but accusing him of being a drug addict, a homosexual, a supporter of Communists in Africa, and a myriad of other accusations- many of which were embraced by those looking for a reason for their predetermined hatred of Obama.

    After the election was over, these type of emails smears went down in volume, since it would no longer affect his election. I don’t think this is an accident. The smears after the election have focused on ‘proving’ that he is not really the President.

    “The problem with the COLB is that is lack any real’ evidence that Obama was actually born in Hawaii such as the hospital or doctor’s name. ”

    Ummm the COLB is evidence.

    “While this would really be of no concern for anyone, when people started to investigate and discovered cirumstancial evidence that pointed to a Kenyan birth and the lax and loose laws regarded obtaining a COLB in 1961, people wanted to see the long-form BC.”

    The problem with your statement is that there is no such circumstantial evidence, or lax and loose laws.

    “The problem is the existance that of the long form BC which Obama absolutely refuses to release under financial sanction and personal threats to individuals would allow the Primia Facie evidence of the COLB to be brought into question.”

    The problem is that a few people are more willing to accept as true the rantings of convicted criminals than certified state documents and statements from State government officials, and those people insist that the President should indulge in refuting their idiocy.

  28. avatar
    Loren August 18, 2010 at 4:18 pm #

    “Early in the campaign, many started to question Obama’s contention that he was born in Hawaii.”

    ‘Fraid not. I’ve seen many a Birther attempt to backdate the start of the ‘Where was he born?’ allegations to 2007 or earlier, but that’s just faulty memory.

    “Many” did not start to question Obama’s birthplace until June 2008, when Jim Geraghty mentioned a birthplace rumor alongside a couple of rumors about Obama’s name. The birthplace rumor in question can be traced back to its creation in March 2008, and you can practically count on your fingers the number of people who repeated it between March and June. June 2008 was when it suddenly tipped from being an incredibly obscure and silly rumor to being a widespread and popular one.

    While earlier examples of mistakes as to Obama’s birthplace do exist, none of them got repeated or caused “many people to question” Obama’s Hawaiian birthplace. No, that only happened after he won the Democratic nomination.

  29. avatar
    James August 18, 2010 at 4:37 pm #

    http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/DENVER-CO/KHOW-AM/081310PETE6A.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=DENVER-CO&NG_FORMAT=&SITE_ID=636&STATION_ID=KHOW-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=Peter_Boyles&PCAST_CAT=Spoken_Word&PCAST_TITLE=Peter_Boyles_Show

    Recent update on LTC Terry Lakin.

    Margaret Hemenway is the best. She really knows her stuff and is Washington DC insider.

    Mario Apuzzo and Charles Kerchner come in second.

    Phil Berg is worst to listen to. Berg always says the same thing right to a T and word for word like he’s talking from a teleprompter.

  30. avatar
    AnotherBird August 18, 2010 at 8:03 pm #

    James: The problem with the COLB is that is lack any real’ evidence that Obama was actually born in Hawaii

    Such as the words “This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceedings”. Those words are actually on the COLB, and a judge would accept it as evidence. Honestly, James you need better arguments.

  31. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 18, 2010 at 8:45 pm #

    Loren: June 2008 was when it suddenly tipped from being an incredibly obscure and silly rumor to being a widespread and popular one.

    And that’s when the Obama Campaign released the COLB, which satisfied all normal people, and cleared the way for him to be elected handily.

  32. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP August 18, 2010 at 8:47 pm #

    Joey:
    Obama has no power to release his long form birth certificate. The state of Hawaii only issues the short form since they went paperless in 2001 and after Obama’s experience with the FighttheSmears.com COLB, it is unlikely that those who question Obama’s Hawaii birth would accept a long form released by him as being valid anyway.If anyone really needs to see the original, long form, vault copy 1961 Certificate of Live Birth, they can go to a judge, get a subpoenaand have it released without Obama being involved in the release at all. In my humble opinion, that is the appropriate way to release the original birth record, via subpoena.

    There is only one reason why they want the “long form” that Hawaii no longer issues – so they can claim that it is fake too.

  33. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP August 18, 2010 at 9:02 pm #

    If he posted it online, some idiot would just download it, alter it with Photoshop, and then claim that the president faked it, just like they did with the COLB when he posted it online. Even if he did have access to a long form, he wouldn’t let these morons get their dirty, lying mitts on it by posting it on the internet.

  34. avatar
    Majority Will August 18, 2010 at 9:10 pm #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP: If he posted it online, some idiot would just download it, alter it with Photoshop, and then claim that the president faked it, just like they did with the COLB when he posted it online. Even if he did have access to a long form, he wouldn’t let these morons get their dirty, lying mitts on it by posting it on the internet.

    Exactly.

  35. avatar
    Joey August 18, 2010 at 9:18 pm #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP: There is only one reason why they want the “long form” that Hawaii no longer issues – so they can claim that it is fake too.

    Yes, that and they are hoping that there is some incriminating information on the long form that was omitted from the short form.
    I’ve been debating with birthers on another website who maintain that the original document was altered in some way. There are also birthers who still maintain that there will be proof that Obama’s grandmother registered his birth in Hawaii while he was actually born in Kenya.

  36. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP August 18, 2010 at 9:28 pm #

    Joey:
    Yes, thatand they are hoping that there is some incriminating information on the long form that was omitted from the short form.
    I’ve been debating with birthers on another website who maintain that the original document was altered in some way. There are also birthers who still maintain that there will be proof that Obama’s grandmother registered his birth in Hawaii while he was actually born in Kenya.

    It has gone way beyond verifying his citizenship. They want to INVESTIGATE him to try to find something wrong in his past, and if they don’t find anything, they’ll just make it up. He would be a fool to release anything to them after all the propaganda and lies from them, and the president is no fool. They tried to burn him once with their dirty tricks, and he’s not going to let them do it again.

  37. avatar
    G August 18, 2010 at 9:37 pm #

    James: Recent update on LTC Terry Lakin.

    Margaret Hemenway is the best. She really knows her stuff and is Washington DC insider.

    Mario Apuzzo and Charles Kerchner come in second.

    Phil Berg is worst to listen to. Berg always says the same thing right to a T and word for word like he’s talking from a teleprompter.

    LOL!

    Ah, James, James, James… You choose to worship fools and con artists. You eat up and buy into any silly nonsense they say and slavishly believe them, which is why you birthers are destined to endless disappointment and failure. And you wonder why sane folks laugh at you and shake their heads.

    Keep plucking that chicken.

  38. avatar
    Majority Will August 18, 2010 at 9:52 pm #

    G:
    LOL!Ah, James, James, James…You choose to worship fools and con artists.You eat up and buy into any silly nonsense they say and slavishly believe them, which is why you birthers are destined to endless disappointment and failure.And you wonder why sane folks laugh at you and shake their heads.Keep plucking that chicken.

    James will die a fool.

  39. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 18, 2010 at 9:54 pm #

    James: http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/DENVER-CO/KHOW-AM/081310PETE6A.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=DENVER-CO&NG_FORMAT=&SITE_ID=636&STATION_ID=KHOW-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=Peter_Boyles&PCAST_CAT=Spoken_Word&PCAST_TITLE=Peter_Boyles_ShowRecent update on LTC Terry Lakin.Margaret Hemenway is the best.She really knows her stuff and is Washington DC insider.Mario Apuzzo and Charles Kerchner come in second.Phil Berg is worst to listen to.Berg always says the same thing right to a T and word for word like he’s talking from a teleprompter.

    Once again James the old idiom holds true. Its better to stay silent than to open your mouth and be proven a fool

  40. avatar
    Rickey August 19, 2010 at 12:19 am #

    James: Recent update on LTC Terry Lakin.Margaret Hemenway is the best.She really knows her stuff and is Washington DC insider.

    Does she enjoy writing letters? I’m sure that Lakin would like to receive some mail while he serves his sentence in Leavenworth.

  41. avatar
    AnotherBird August 19, 2010 at 12:58 am #

    James: Recent update on LTC Terry Lakin.

    … What that his court martial ended and he got sent to jail? Don’t rush it.

  42. avatar
    Bovril August 19, 2010 at 6:41 am #

    James: Recent update on LTC Terry Lakin.
    Margaret Hemenway is the best. She really knows her stuff and is Washington DC insider.

    James, dear boy

    If that nasty little blue falcon and his handlers are so super, fab amd wonderful why is the unanimous consensus over at CAFFLOG, by real JAGS and military lawyers, that’s he’s toast..?

    Well unanimous except for the occasional Birfer like LieGuy

  43. avatar
    Sean August 19, 2010 at 12:47 pm #

    Does anyone have any other links that confirm the article “Hawaii acceeds to birther demands”?

    Not that I doubt it, I just was challenged to come up with another source.

  44. avatar
    AnotherBird August 19, 2010 at 6:42 pm #

    Sean: Does anyone have any other links that confirm the article “Hawaii acceeds to birther demands”?

    Not that I doubt it, I just was challenged to come up with another source.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2010/07/hawaii-acceeds-to-birther-demands/

    The magic of …

  45. avatar
    Sean August 19, 2010 at 6:58 pm #

    AnotherBird:
    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2010/07/hawaii-acceeds-to-birther-demands/The magic of …

    I meant outside of this website is there anything to confirm Hawaii changed the nomenclature of the COLB.

  46. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 19, 2010 at 7:25 pm #

    Sean: Does anyone have any other links that confirm the article “Hawaii acceeds to birther demands”?

    E-gad that misspelling has just been sitting there all this time.

    There is certainly plenty of discussion of the new format on blogs, primarily birther blogs and Dr. Ron Polland talks about the changes in his “Blue Hawaii” YouTube video although the actual images he uses are fake. So while I could give you lots of links to mention of the 08/2010 revision of the Hawaii Certificate of Live Birth, I don’t have anything that would count as a “source.”

  47. avatar
    Frederick N. August 19, 2010 at 7:52 pm #

    McCain had faced “natural born citizen” questions before, see this from 1998. The New York Times discussed it in 2004. I think there was some sort of legal challenge about it against McCain prior to any about Obama as well.

  48. avatar
    Black Lion August 19, 2010 at 8:27 pm #

    Frederick N.: McCain had faced “natural born citizen” questions before, see this from 1998. The New York Times discussed it in 2004. I think there was some sort of legal challenge about it against McCain prior to any about Obama as well.

    So what is your point? At the end of the day the fact remains that Obama was born in the United States and McCain was not….Different situations….So it is understandable that their might have been some question regarding McCain…..

  49. avatar
    Frederick N. August 19, 2010 at 10:47 pm #

    Black Lion: So what is your point? At the end of the day the fact remains that Obama was born in the United States and McCain was not….Different situations….So it is understandable that their might have been some question regarding McCain…..

    Dr. Conspiracy had wondered why the McCain campaign had his birth certificate handy. What’s your point?

  50. avatar
    Black Lion August 19, 2010 at 11:21 pm #

    Frederick N.: Dr. Conspiracy had wondered why the McCain campaign had his birth certificate handy. What’s your point?

    Doc and other commenters had already speculated that it was probably due to the campaign….And since everyone knew that McCain was born in Panama, bringing up the earlier questioning was irrelevant….The bottom line is that McCain needed the finding by former solicitor Ted Olson and the Senate resolution…Obama by virtue of being born in the US…did not…

  51. avatar
    Frederick N. August 19, 2010 at 11:34 pm #

    Black Lion: Doc and other commenters had already speculated that it was probably due to the campaign….And since everyone knew that McCain was born in Panama, bringing up the earlier questioning was irrelevant….The bottom line is that McCain needed the finding by former solicitor Ted Olson and the Senate resolution…Obama by virtue of being born in the US…did not…

    McCain wasn’t born in Panama. McCain’s birth certificate documents his birth in the U.S. adminstered territory of the Canal Zone.

  52. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 20, 2010 at 12:00 am #

    Frederick N.:
    McCain wasn’t born in Panama. McCain’s birth certificate documents his birth in the U.S. adminstered territoryof the Canal Zone.

    Where is this McCain birth certificate stating such?

  53. avatar
    misha August 20, 2010 at 12:07 am #

    Frederick N.: McCain’s birth certificate documents his birth in the U.S. adminstered territory of the Canal Zone.

    Links please.

  54. avatar
    Frederick N. August 20, 2010 at 12:08 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Where is this McCain birth certificate stating such?

    If you are curious, you should start by reading the WaPo article linked in the post, though I’m not sure why you ask, since you believe seeing candidates birth certificates is none of your business.

  55. avatar
    Majority Will August 20, 2010 at 12:10 am #

    Frederick N.:If you are curious, you should start by reading the WaPo article linked in the post, though I’m not sure why you ask, since you believe seeing candidates birth certificates is none of your business.

    “McCain wasn’t born in Panama. McCain’s birth certificate documents his birth in the U.S. adminstered territory of the Canal Zone.”

    You’re dancing again and you’re a really bad dancer. Shouldn’t you be in bed by now?

  56. avatar
    Frederick N. August 20, 2010 at 12:12 am #

    misha: Links please.

    Here’s a link.

  57. avatar
    Frederick N. August 20, 2010 at 12:13 am #

    Majority Will: “McCain wasn’t born in Panama. McCain’s birth certificate documents his birth in the U.S. adminstered territory of the Canal Zone.”You’re dancing again and you’re a really bad dancer. Shouldn’t you be in bed by now?

    You repeatedly fail to comprehend simple statements.

  58. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 20, 2010 at 12:19 am #

    Frederick N.:
    If you are curious, you should start by reading the WaPo article linked in the post, though I’m not sure why you ask, since you believe seeing candidates birth certificates is none of your business.

    The birth certificate isn’t mentioned nor is it linked in the article. Once again Obama has shown more than McCain and yet you still complain. Where is McCain’s birth certificate?

  59. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 20, 2010 at 12:20 am #

    Frederick N.:
    You repeatedly fail to comprehend simple statements.

    You weren’t old enough to vote in the election. Your opinion doesn’t count for jack.

  60. avatar
    Frederick N. August 20, 2010 at 12:24 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): The birth certificate isn’t mentioned nor is it linked in the article. Once again Obama has shown more than McCain and yet you still complain. Where is McCain’s birth certificate?

    You obviously haven’t read the linked article.

  61. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 20, 2010 at 12:25 am #

    Frederick N.:
    You obviously haven’t read the linked article.

    Yeah I obviously have where is the link with McCain’s birth certificate?

  62. avatar
    Frederick N. August 20, 2010 at 12:25 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): You weren’t old enough to vote in the election. Your opinion doesn’t count for jack.

    What a silly notion.

  63. avatar
    Frederick N. August 20, 2010 at 12:27 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Yeah I obviously have where is the link with McCain’s birth certificate?

    You stated “The birth certificate isn’t mentioned”, so you obviously haven’t read the linked article. Feel free to do so.

  64. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 20, 2010 at 12:27 am #

    Frederick N.:
    What a silly notion.

    Its not a silly notion. You didn’t vote in the last election. You had no say you weren’t old enough. Your complaints after the fact are ridiculous

  65. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 20, 2010 at 12:28 am #

    Frederick N.:
    You stated “The birth certificate isn’t mentioned”, so you obviously haven’t read the linked article. Feel free to do so.

    Yeah I did read the article the word Birth Certificate appears nowhere in the Wapo article

  66. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 20, 2010 at 12:30 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
    Yeah I did read the article the word Birth Certificate appears nowhere in the Wapo article

    So yes when I said the Birth Certificate wasn’t mentioned. I was 100% correct.

  67. avatar
    Frederick N. August 20, 2010 at 12:31 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Its not a silly notion. You didn’t vote in the last election. You had no say you weren’t old enough. Your complaints after the fact are ridiculous

    The merit of opinions and the factual validity of statements are independent of voting status or of having voted. None of my comments in this thread have been complaints about the past election.

  68. avatar
    Frederick N. August 20, 2010 at 12:33 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Yeah I did read the article the word Birth Certificate appears nowhere in the Wapo article

    You aren’t a very good reader, it’s mentioned in paragraph six.

  69. avatar
    SluggoJD August 20, 2010 at 12:37 am #

    Frederick N.:
    You aren’t a very good reader, it’s mentioned in paragraph six.

    Freddy, it’s past your bedtime.

    Good night.

  70. avatar
    SluggoJD August 20, 2010 at 12:39 am #

    SluggoJD:
    Freddy, it’s past your bedtime.Good night.

    Sorry Freddy, forgot something – with age comes wisdom, sometimes.

    Get more sleep, and hopefully you’ll be blessed like me.

  71. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 20, 2010 at 12:42 am #

    Frederick N.:
    The merit of opinions and the factual validity of statements are independent of voting status or of having voted. None of my comments in this thread have been complaints about the past election.

    Considering you haven’t shown a valid basis for your opinion I chalk it up to naivety and lack of experience. You’re no different than people who complain about someone but then didn’t bother to vote

  72. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 20, 2010 at 12:46 am #

    Paragraph Six talks about George Romney not McCain. Once again nowhere in the Wapo article does it talk about his Birth Certificate or the release thereof. You ask for Obama’s long form but nowhere has McCain released any version of his birth certificate to the public

    Frederick N.:
    You aren’t a very good reader, it’s mentioned in paragraph six.

  73. avatar
    Frederick N. August 20, 2010 at 12:48 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Considering you haven’t shown a valid basis for your opinion I chalk it up to naivety and lack of experience. You’re no different than people who complain about someone but then didn’t bother to vote

    My statements are supported by linked articles, which you have chosen, or are incapable, of reading.

  74. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 20, 2010 at 12:50 am #

    Frederick N.:
    My statements are supported by linked articles, which you have chosen, or are incapable, of reading.

    Your statements aren’t supported by anything. I’ve read your articles they make no mention of the same stuff you require of Obama. Nowhere is there a mention of McCain releasing his birth certificate. The phrase birth certificate isn’t mentioned in the article

  75. avatar
    Frederick N. August 20, 2010 at 12:52 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Paragraph Six talks about George Romney not McCain. Once again nowhere in the Wapo article does it talk about his Birth Certificate or the release thereof. You ask for Obama’s long form but nowhere has McCain released any version of his birth certificate to the public

    I’m not sure what article you are reading, it is not the one linked in the post we are discussing.

    Since you object to any inquiries about Obama’s birth certificate you really have no business complaining about McCain’s. As I’ve stated in the past, as a strong believer in open government I would like to see his long form birth certificate. Unlike you, who thinks the entire subject should be off limits.

  76. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 20, 2010 at 12:55 am #

    Frederick N.:
    I’m not sure what article you are reading, it is not the one linked in the post we are discussing.Since you object to any inquiries about Obama’s birth certificate you really have no business complaining about McCain’s. As I’ve stated in the past, as a strong believer in open governmentI would like to see his long form birth certificate. Unlike you, who thinks the entire subject should be off limits.

    You’re the one telling me the birth certificate was mentioned in the Wapo article you posted. It was not mentioned at all. In fact they barely touched on the birth issue. Then a McCain spokesman says that McCain is elligible. Excuse me but Obama released his COLB. I’m just curious about why you’re so one sided about this. You ask more of Obama but then don’t ask the same from McCain. So why aren’t you asking for McCain’s long form?

  77. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 20, 2010 at 12:57 am #

    Okay so lets see the original link that Doc posted about says McCain did not release his birth certificate to the public. So once again you’re asking more from Obama than you did of McCain

  78. avatar
    dunstvangeet August 20, 2010 at 12:59 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
    You’re the one telling me the birth certificate was mentioned in the Wapo article you posted.It was not mentioned at all.In fact they barely touched on the birth issue.Then a McCain spokesman says that McCain is elligible.Excuse me but Obama released his COLB.I’m just curious about why you’re so one sided about this.You ask more of Obama but then don’t ask the same from McCain.So why aren’t you asking for McCain’s long form?

    While I agree with you, it is mentioned that McCain’s campaign showed it to a Washington Post reporter.

    He’s talking about the Washington Post article linked in the main body of the article.

    By the way, Frederick. McCain showed his birth certificate to 1 person. McCain also refused to let that person take pictures of it. Obama showed his birth certificate to at least 2 people, and allowed pictures. Furthermore, he scanned it and posted it online so that everybody could see it.

    McCain did virtually nothing compared to what Obama has done.

  79. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 20, 2010 at 12:59 am #

    dunstvangeet:
    While I agree with you, it is mentioned that McCain’s campaign showed it to a Washington Post reporter.He’s talking about the Washington Post article linked in the main body of the article.By the way, Frederick.McCain showed his birth certificate to 1 person.McCain also refused to let that person take pictures of it.Obama showed his birth certificate to at least 2 people, and allowed pictures.Furthermore, he scanned it and posted it online so that everybody could see it.McCain did virtually nothing compared to what Obama has done.

    But remember Freddy is just asking questions he just has a different standard for McCain than Obama

  80. avatar
    Frederick N. August 20, 2010 at 1:04 am #

    dunstvangeet: While I agree with you, it is mentioned that McCain’s campaign showed it to a Washington Post reporter.He’s talking about the Washington Post article linked in the main body of the article.By the way, Frederick. McCain showed his birth certificate to 1 person. McCain also refused to let that person take pictures of it. Obama showed his birth certificate to at least 2 people, and allowed pictures. Furthermore, he scanned it and posted it online so that everybody could see it.McCain did virtually nothing compared to what Obama has done.

    Pictures of his COLB, not his birth certificate. He also didn’t show it to an adversarial reporter.

  81. avatar
    Frederick N. August 20, 2010 at 1:10 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): You’re the one telling me the birth certificate was mentioned in the Wapo article you posted. It was not mentioned at all. In fact they barely touched on the birth issue. Then a McCain spokesman says that McCain is elligible. Excuse me but Obama released his COLB. I’m just curious about why you’re so one sided about this. You ask more of Obama but then don’t ask the same from McCain. So why aren’t you asking for McCain’s long form?

    Not only don’t you read linked articles, you don’t read responses to your questions, either.

  82. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 20, 2010 at 1:13 am #

    Frederick N.:
    Pictures of his COLB, not his birth certificate. He also didn’t show it to an adversarial reporter.

    The COLB is a birth certificate. It is a certified copy of a birth certificate which is more than McCain ever did. McCain showed his to a friendly reporter didn’t release it to the public, didn’t allow pictures. Again double standard by you

  83. avatar
    misha August 20, 2010 at 1:14 am #

    The truth about McCain is here and here.

  84. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 20, 2010 at 1:14 am #

    Frederick N.:
    Not only don’t you read linked articles, you don’t read responses to your questions, either.

    I read your linked articles. You’re talking in circles and the information you provided in the articles did not provide any information on McCain that you were asking from Obama

  85. avatar
    Frederick N. August 20, 2010 at 1:24 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): The COLB is a birth certificate. It is a certified copy of a birth certificate which is more than McCain ever did. McCain showed his to a friendly reporter didn’t release it to the public, didn’t allow pictures. Again double standard by you

    Dobbs is not your run of the mill journalist, and you have no basis for calling him “friendly” to McCain

  86. avatar
    misha August 20, 2010 at 1:27 am #

    Frederick N.: Dobbs is not your run of the mill journalist

    True. He went from reasonable to crank.

  87. avatar
    Frederick N. August 20, 2010 at 1:30 am #

    misha: True. He went from reasonable to crank.

    Actually he went from reporter to guest scholar at the Woodrow Wilson Center in Washington DC, not that you care, or know who he is, or have ever read any of his articles or books.

  88. avatar
    sfjeff August 20, 2010 at 1:34 am #

    Welcome back Fred. I am sure we will have just as much fun as last time.

    The link didn’t work for me, but I am assuming it should link to a post.

    But I am not sure what your point is. I still haven’t seen any McCain birth certificate, and I have seen a copy of Obama’s. I believe you when you say you would like to see the originals of the birth certificates of both men, but I assume from our previous conversations, you want this out of mere personal curiousity?

    Do you think you are entitled to them, or do you think this is just a curiosity on your part that you would like to be indulged in?

    Do you think that politicians should indulge voters in all personal questions?

    Should Sarah Palin provide nude photo’s of herself just because I am curious about how fit she really is?

  89. avatar
    Frederick N. August 20, 2010 at 1:42 am #

    sfjeff:The link didn’t work for me, but I am assuming it should link to a post.

    The link in the post? It works fine for me.

    “I believe you when you say you would like to see the originals of the birth certificates”

    Thanks.

    “Should Sarah Palin provide nude photo’s of herself just because I am curious about how fit she really is?”

    We should wait until we know for sure McCain isn’t running again before demanding nude photos of the presidential candidates.

  90. avatar
    G August 20, 2010 at 1:48 am #

    Frederick N.:
    Here’s a link.

    Cheeseburger stabbing? I guess that’s your personal version of “Rick Rolled”, eh? (It was a funny image)

    The problem is that type of stunt only works as a good joke when you’re trying to get gullible people to believe in nonsense. When you make claims and can’t provide links to back them up, you only make yourself look foolish.

  91. avatar
    misha August 20, 2010 at 1:51 am #

    Frederick N.: Here’s a link.

    You may know the words, but you don’t know the tune.

  92. avatar
    Frederick N. August 20, 2010 at 1:51 am #

    G: Cheeseburger stabbing? I guess that’s your personal version of “Rick Rolled”, eh? (It was a funny image)The problem is that type of stunt only works as a good joke when you’re trying to get gullible people to believe in nonsense. When you make claims and can’t provide links to back them up, you only make yourself look foolish.

    That link was in response to and suited for Misha.

  93. avatar
    misha August 20, 2010 at 1:53 am #

    Frederick N.: That link was in response to and suited for Misha.

    misha: You may know the words, but you don’t know the tune.

  94. avatar
    G August 20, 2010 at 1:55 am #

    Frederick N.: As I’ve stated in the past, as a strong believer in open government I would like to see his long form birth certificate. Unlike you, who thinks the entire subject should be off limits.

    “Open government” and “transparency” simply refers to government matters and actions.

    It has nothing to do with personal information, which are covered by privacy acts.

    You don’t seem to understand or comprehend the issues you are trying to discuss, which is why your comments have not been well received. If you would think or do your homework before your “speak”, maybe you could present yourself better so that people could take you seriously. Honestly, so far you have just come across as somewhat ignorant, yet very opinionated.

  95. avatar
    misha August 20, 2010 at 1:56 am #

    G: so far you have just come across as somewhat ignorant, yet very opinionated.

    Typical conservative and birther.

  96. avatar
    Frederick N. August 20, 2010 at 1:58 am #

    misha:

    I write the songs, I write the songs.

  97. avatar
    Frederick N. August 20, 2010 at 1:59 am #

    G: “Open government” and “transparency” simply refers to government matters and actions. It has nothing to do with personal information, which are covered by privacy acts. You don’t seem to understand or comprehend the issues you are trying to discuss, which is why your comments have not been well received. If you would think or do your homework before your “speak”, maybe you could present yourself better so that people could take you seriously. Honestly, so far you have just come across as somewhat ignorant, yet very opinionated.

    Privacy acts aren’t relevant.

  98. avatar
    Frederick N. August 20, 2010 at 1:59 am #

    misha: Typical conservative and birther.

    I’m not a birther, I’m an unsealer, and I’m not a conservative, I’m a fascist.

  99. avatar
    G August 20, 2010 at 2:04 am #

    Frederick N.: Pictures of his COLB, not his birth certificate. He also didn’t show it to an adversarial reporter.

    1. The COLB is a birth certificate. It is the “official” document that the state of HI provides for such things.

    2. Um, when you scan a physical document, you end up with a “picture” of that document as a result. Hate to tell you, but that’s the only way to post something like that publicly online. In other words, WonkaVision doesn’t exist kid, so you can’t reach into the screen and pull out a physical document.

    3. You are truly gullible if you think Factcheck is somehow in on some “conspiracy” and is not simply an impartial organization that does just that – fact checking . They investigate issues of many sorts and all across the political spectrum.

    I have to say, you are coming across as being just as much “in denial” as those particular Muslims you pointed out on another thread that refuse to accept that Arabs were behind 9/11…

  100. avatar
    sfjeff August 20, 2010 at 2:08 am #

    “We should wait until we know for sure McCain isn’t running again before demanding nude photos of the presidential candidates.”

    Heh- its been awhile since we have had a guest who could make a good joke- thanks

  101. avatar
    G August 20, 2010 at 2:09 am #

    Frederick N.: That link was in response to and suited for Misha.

    I did find it amusing, so I got the joke, as I’m sure Misha did as well.

    I just wish you would act intellectually honest and provide evidence that backs up your assertions. When you make boasts and statements that you can’t back up, you are only making yourself look bad and damaging your own credibility.

    So, are you here to just troll because that gives you your kicks or do you have actual questions and the ability to carry on a grown up dialog?

  102. avatar
    misha August 20, 2010 at 2:12 am #

    Frederick N.: I’m not a conservative, I’m a fascist.

    As is Palin, Beck, Huck and the rest of their coterie. The ultimate Christofascist was Ted Haggard, until he fell on his own sword.

    Here’s the whole story: http://www.rickross.com/reference/fundamentalists/fund196.html

  103. avatar
    sfjeff August 20, 2010 at 2:12 am #

    “As I’ve stated in the past, as a strong believer in open government I would like to see his long form birth certificate”

    Could you expand upon this? I too am a strong believer in open government. I am against closed door meetings and governement documents being classified for little or no reason.

    So do you consider all long form birth certificates governement documents and that anyone should have access to any long form birth certificates?

    Do you think that we should have access to anyones social security information?

    Are you against privacy laws?

    Just hoping you can make it clear what your general beliefs are, other than those that you have specifically about Obama

  104. avatar
    G August 20, 2010 at 2:12 am #

    Frederick N.: Privacy acts aren’t relevant.

    Care to explain? That really doesn’t make any sense as a stand alone statement, nor does it address anything within the context of the broader discussion thread.

  105. avatar
    dunstvangeet August 20, 2010 at 2:14 am #

    Frederick,

    1. A certification of Live Birth is “a valid Hawaii State Birth Certificate”. No matter how many times you close your eyes, cover your ears, and yell at the top of your lungs, “It’s not true” doesn’t mean that it’s not. You’re starting to remind me of arguing with a 6-year-old. When he knows he’s lost the argument, he just screams at the top of his lungs.

    2. I’m a big believer in Open Government. Therefore, I would like to see your birth certificate, to prove that you’re actually a citizen, and not an invisible pink unicorn. I therefore should supoena the government and should be able to get your permission to look at your birth certificate, since you believe that all government documents should be public domain. Any Objections to me looking at your birth certificate?

  106. avatar
    G August 20, 2010 at 2:18 am #

    Frederick N.: I’m not a birther, I’m an unsealer, and I’m not a conservative, I’m a fascist.

    LOL! In other words…you are a birther.

    “Unsealer”…LMAO! Yeah, I read that crazy screed that came out days ago proclaiming what “unsealers” were. In essence, you are birthers in a further state of denial – realizing on some level that birtherism is not a serious matter and therefore trying to carry the same birther positions while running away from the title at the same time…

    …seems very similar to all these “conservative independents” and “tea party” folks that claim that they are not Republicans, yet practically have always voted straight GOP and plan to do so again in the fall. Simply people trying to run from the Bush Administration’s disaster record while continuing to be in denial and cling to the same failed policy positions…

    In regards to the second part of your statement, that you are a fascist and not a conservative, I have no comment or opinion, as I do not know you or your positions enough to respond to that.

  107. avatar
    G August 20, 2010 at 2:20 am #

    sfjeff: “We should wait until we know for sure McCain isn’t running again before demanding nude photos of the presidential candidates.”

    Heh- its been awhile since we have had a guest who could make a good joke- thanks

    I thought that was a pretty good response too. Of course, for those who wish to indulge their imaginations, there’s always the ‘Nailin Palin spoof video that Hustler put out… 😉

  108. avatar
    misha August 20, 2010 at 2:24 am #

    misha: As is Palin, Beck, Huck and the rest of their coterie. The ultimate Christofascist was Ted Haggard, until he fell on his own sword.Here’s the whole story: http://www.rickross.com/reference/fundamentalists/fund196.html

    Here is the story in pdf: http://jeffsharlet.com/content/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/soldiers_of_christ.pdf

  109. avatar
    G August 20, 2010 at 3:11 am #

    misha: misha: As is Palin, Beck, Huck and the rest of their coterie. The ultimate Christofascist was Ted Haggard, until he fell on his own sword.Here’s the whole story: http://www.rickross.com/reference/fundamentalists/fund196.html

    Here is the story in pdf: http://jeffsharlet.com/content/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/soldiers_of_christ.pdf

    Wow. Well, I read through the whole thing. At first, it just seemed like a bunch of evangelicals looking to create their own little conservative “Mecca” and as harmless as the Amish…but then as I read about their tactics of aggressively running others out of town, involving themselves in politics, aligning themselves with big business and against local mom & pop businesses downtown and taking such a militant and hostile attitude towards minorities, gays, other religions, other countries…etc…wow. it was just scary.

    These people are totally the American Taliban and a hostile threat. And the way they self-exclude themselves from their “neighbors” that they neither “know” nor “like”…just reminds me of a Jonestown type cult.or another Waco in the making.

    Obviously this all was written before Ted Haggart’s “fall from grace”…so I did get some laughs in reading things, such as this ironic statement:

    “Pastor Ted believed, worked for the devil. Pastor Ted soon began upsetting the devil’s plans. He staked out gay bars, inviting men to come to his church”

    ROTFL!

  110. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 20, 2010 at 4:04 am #

    I see our guest troll, Frederick N. is back. I’m putting him in moderation for excessive posting (26 short posts in one evening).

  111. avatar
    misha August 20, 2010 at 4:06 am #

    G: aggressively running others out of town

    They were also harrassing Jews. The Cornerstone Baptist church in the Springs was taking Jewish children and baptizing them. Church members would tell Jewish parents they are going to the mall, and would your children like to go with us.They then would take the children to the church, and baptize them.

    Haggard and his crowd are anti-semites.

  112. avatar
    Bovril August 20, 2010 at 6:20 am #

    Dearr Freddy,

    I see your personal belief is “Privacy acts aren’t relevant.”

    As such you will of course have no issues with divulging your real name, address, SSN, post your COLB (or equivalent), have Dr C release your purported email address and actual IP address, your bank account details, medical records, psychiatric and criminal records, mothers maiden name, schools attended, tax records…..to start with.

  113. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 20, 2010 at 8:09 am #

    What is your basis for calling dobbs an enemy of mccain. Once again you’re asking more of obama than you do of mccain, why is that?

    Frederick N.:
    Dobbs is not your run of the mill journalist, and you have no basis for calling him “friendly” to McCain

  114. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 20, 2010 at 8:13 am #

    Considering nothing is sealed that you have a right to it seems birther fits you perfectly

    Frederick N.:
    I’m not a birther, I’m an unsealer, and I’m not a conservative, I’m a fascist.

  115. avatar
    Bovril August 20, 2010 at 8:46 am #

    WTF is an “unsealer”, the only reference I can seem to find is a misogynistic religious rant about the innate perfidity of womankind.

    “And do you not know that you are an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the devil’s gateway: you are the unsealer of that tree: you are the first deserter of the divine law: you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God’s image, man. On account of your desert that is, death even the Son of God had to die.”

  116. avatar
    Majority Will August 20, 2010 at 8:48 am #

    Frederick N.:
    You repeatedly fail to comprehend simple statements.

    You shouldn’t talk to yourself, little one. Repeatedly.

    “I’m a fascist.” Wow, a neo-Nazi birther! It’s Tim Adams clone!
    I’ll bet your mommy is SO PROUD! Did you get new jackboots and a brown shirt for your birthday?

  117. avatar
    Majority Will August 20, 2010 at 8:50 am #

    Frederick N. drooled:
    “You repeatedly fail to comprehend simple statements.”

    You shouldn’t talk to yourself, little one. Repeatedly.

    “I’m a fascist.” Wow, a neo-Nazi birther! It’s Tim Adams’ clone!
    I’ll bet your mommy is SO PROUD! Did you get new jackboots and a brown shirt for your birthday?

  118. avatar
    Majority Will August 20, 2010 at 8:51 am #

    Bovril: WTF is an “unsealer”, the only reference I can seem to find is a misogynisticreligious rant about the innate perfidity of womankind.“And do you not know that you are an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the devil’s gateway: you are the unsealer of that tree: you are the first deserter of the divine law: you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God’s image, man. On account of your desert that is, death even the Son of God had to die.”

    I think he meant unhinged.

  119. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 20, 2010 at 8:54 am #

    Bovril: WTF is an “unsealer”, the only reference I can seem to find is a misogynistic religious rant about the innate perfidity of womankind.“And do you not know that you are an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the devil’s gateway: you are the unsealer of that tree: you are the first deserter of the divine law: you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God’s image, man. On account of your desert that is, death even the Son of God had to die.”

    Yeah usually one breaking the seal has to do with sex

  120. avatar
    Bovril August 20, 2010 at 1:29 pm #

    Lets parse out Freddies little descriptor shall we

    I’m not a birther, I’m an unsealer, and I’m not a conservative, I’m a fascist.

    Based on your self describes status as an “unsealer” and the quotation I provided, it would appear you are misogynistic, religiously intolerant, sexually confused, self loathing, self righteous prig with delusions of sexual adequacy

    Now, as I’m sure you are further aware Freddie dear, as a self declared Fascist…

    Fascism seeks to organize a nation according to corporatist perspectives, values, and systems, including the political system and the economy.

    Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong

    Fascists believe that the economic classes are not capable of properly governing a nation, and that a merit-based aristocracy of experienced military persons must rule through regimenting a nation’s forces of production and securing the nation’s independence.

    Mass mobilization with militarization of political relationships and style and the goal of a mass party militia

    You know, that kinda sounds a hell of a lot like the cack in Birferstan with their lust for the iron boot of totalitarianism, demands for military coups, violent threats and rejection of the viewpoints of others. In point of fact it talks directly to the insane muppets of the Restore America Plan and the ravings of Sovereign citizens and AGJ/militias.

    So, yes Freddie dearest you are by your own words painted an intolerant birfer with mommy issues, a deep abiding hatred of the female of the species, rigorously suppresed latent homosexuality and a pronounced hatred of the democratic processes and Constitution.

    Have I missed anything..?

  121. avatar
    Frederick N. August 20, 2010 at 3:03 pm #

    Bovril: Based on your self describes status as an “unsealer” and the quotation I provided

    It’s someone who doesn’t doubt Obama’s citizenship but believes documents relating to his background – original birth certificate, SAT/LSAT scores, college transcripts, etc., should be made available to the public.

  122. avatar
    G August 20, 2010 at 7:21 pm #

    Frederick N.:
    It’s someone who doesn’t doubt Obama’s citizenship but believes documents relating to his background – original birth certificate, SAT/LSAT scores, college transcripts, etc., should be made available to the public.

    Ok. To be clear, you are admitting that you accept that Obama was born in America and you do not question his NBC status. Is that correct?

    You claim your entire issue is that you wish you could see his personal records. Is that correct also?

    Would you say this is just mere personal curiosity on your part or do you have some specific reason for wanting to see this info, other than as some historical footnote of trivia?

    I hope you fully understand that there is no requirement or legal reason that candidates would have to provide such info and as Obama is no longer just a candidate but now President, the info is even more irrelevant to the office he currently holds. When he runs for reelection in 2012, he will be judged then by how people perceive his performance in office during his first term vs. the potential qualifications of those that run against him. His resume prior to his current job (President) is no longer even a real factor.

    Finally, your term “unsealer” is still incorrect in such a scenario.

    He didn’t “seal” any of these records. He just chooses not to release them and is under no obligation or requirement to do so. Records of his that are the properly of either medical, government or educational institutions do fall under privacy laws and you have no right to request to see that info from them on him, just as none of us have the right to go to places like that and ask to see your personal records. We have no direct link or legal interest nor entitlement to them. Simple as that.

    So, instead of “unsealer” I guess what you really mean is that you are just plain “nosy”. That would be a more appropriate term, based on what you claim is your intent.

  123. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 20, 2010 at 8:15 pm #

    Frederick N.:
    It’s someone who doesn’t doubt Obama’s citizenship but believes documents relating to his background – original birth certificate, SAT/LSAT scores, college transcripts, etc., should be made available to the public.

    And yet you don’t apply the same standard to McCain. I’ll tell you what Freddie in 2012 you’ll be old enough to vote you can complain then

  124. avatar
    Majority Will August 20, 2010 at 10:26 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
    And yet you don’t apply the same standard to McCain.I’ll tell you what Freddie in 2012 you’ll be old enough to vote you can complain then

    Doubtful on the age. This is an immature, fascist pupa or even larva.

  125. avatar
    Jerry Reed August 28, 2010 at 6:22 pm #

    Maybe we’re using the wrong parts of speech in arguing abourt COLBs and birth certificates (both noun terms.) Let’s try verbs. What does a certificate do? It certifies.
    What does a certification do? Well, let’s see. I’m guessing … it certifies! What does a birth certificate certify? The facts of birth as printed on the face of the document? And a COLB? Again, the facts of birth .as printed on the face of the document?
    So how is Obama’s deficient, given the wording at the bottom about being prima facie evidence in any court proceeding? I know, some persist in calling the document false (never proven), or alleging that the state knowingly issues COLBs attesting to Hawaiian birth in instances the Dept. of Health employee knows the subject is born outside Hawaii. Often asserted, but also never proven — and it would be so easy to prove if it were true.