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Long forms for sale?

While various official statements from the Hawaii Department of Health say that certified photocopies of original birth certificates (aka “long forms”) are no longer issued by the department, it has been my position that the State would be hard pressed stick to such a policy given current law.

Now a video, purporting to be that of a woman ordering a long form at the counter at the Hawaii Department of Health has been published. The audio is difficult to make out at first, but it is consistent with the claim.

Perhaps someone with better hearing than I might venture to make a transcript.

Here is the video itself:

251 Responses to Long forms for sale?

  1. avatar
    Judge Mental October 18, 2010 at 7:32 pm #

    Can’t help with the transcript.

    According to the youtube caption the video was taken in mid /July 2010.

    Although it is possible that there is some other reason, it is a little hard to imagine why anyone would have filmed this and/or identified it as someone ordering a long form and then posted it on youtube other than in connection with birtherism.

    It’s now October…..if it was a valid order taken in line with Hawaian procedures and if Hawaii do in fact issue long forms why didn’t/don’t the party concerned just publish the long form certificate which she would have surely received by now ( 3 months later)?

    Doesn’t pass the most basic of sniff tests so far.

  2. avatar
    Bovril October 18, 2010 at 7:32 pm #

    Dr C,

    I’m afraid I can’t agree with you on this.

    As far as I can ascertain from the video (dated July of this year) there is confusion on the part of both the woman and the clerk as to whether she is ordering a BC (a COLB) or a HHL BC (a “Longer Form”).

    So, no actaul “Long Form” is either being ordered nor available.

    Patently no such form was ever handed over as otherwise the Birfoon tendency would have splattered this across the Internet.

    As for your concern about the law, I cannot see this as an issue in any manner.

    As pointed out by yourself previously,

    The Federal Government has laid out very specific and detailed minimum criteria for a “short form” to meet BC requirements.

    The Hawai’i COLB meets these requirements

    The Hawai’i state statutes are legal and not in conflict with any Federal, inter state commerce or Constitutional requirements

    There is no policy issue that can be attacked in a court of law.

  3. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 18, 2010 at 7:49 pm #

    It’s no surprise that birfoons can find evidence to support their claim in a muddy video. If you hand them a blank sheet of paper, sure as shootin’, they’ll find evidence to support their claims there too

  4. avatar
    sfjeff October 18, 2010 at 7:55 pm #

    Doesn’t the woman say that she has a “certificate of live birth”?

    I thought that was the holy grail and that the ‘certification of live birth’ is what Birthers consider invalid.

    This doesn’t pass the smell test for me either. I remember hearing something about this a month or two ago, but oddly no one produced the ‘long form’.

  5. avatar
    Dave October 18, 2010 at 9:24 pm #

    Dr C – I’m not clear what you mean by “the State would be hard pressed stick to such a policy given current law.” It seems to me that if HI still has the microfilm of the original birth certificates, then a subpoena could get it. Or if HI has something like FOIA, it could conceivably be obtained that way. But I thought the statement was the HI just didn’t have an administrative procedure for routinely handing out photocopies of the original birth certificate — what current law makes this position untenable?

  6. avatar
    Arthur October 18, 2010 at 9:43 pm #

    She might be asking for a long-form birth certificate–or getting a permit to open a nail salon, or maybe ordering a deep-dish pizza. I couldn’t tell what was going on, where the setting was, or what she was saying. I swear, I just don’t get this new wave of birther auteur directors! And what was that first two minutes about?; exposition or a bad edit?! And honestly, would it kill them to get a steady cam? Come on, people; “The Blair Witch Project” is sooo last century.

  7. avatar
    gorefan October 18, 2010 at 10:23 pm #

    Dr. C.

    As usual, I’m confused. Are you talking about the woman with her back to the camera, talking to the clerk?

    I hear her say, “cuz it turns out, all I…, I thought I had a copy, all I had was that certificate of live birth.”

    But a certificate of live birth is a long form BC, at least that’s is what is written on the Nordyke sister’s BCs. So is the woman looking for a long form or a short form?

  8. avatar
    Keith October 18, 2010 at 10:26 pm #

    When I first saw the link to the video the other day, I tried watching it but couldn’t figure out anything about what was going on and I just couldn’t be bothered.

    The text accompanying the video indicated that you needed to specify that you needed it for the Hawai’ian Homelands program. It that is the case, I don’t think that the President would even begin to qualify for the need, and any attempt at qualifying for the HH would be fraud, Therefore if he did ask for an HH certificate, Obama would be lying. I’m sure the birthers wouldn’t want to try to entrap the President that way now would they?

    I also suspect, like Bovril, that an HH compliant BC would not be the same as the holy grail long form that they are looking for. It would just be a ‘longer’ form, or maybe more accurately a ‘less-short’ form, i.e. a COLB with a few extra fields on it.

  9. avatar
    misha October 18, 2010 at 10:29 pm #

    OK, birthers: produce a “long form,” obtained within the past year.

    C’mon.

    BTW, your idol Lakin posted a “Certification of a vital record.” Ha ha.

  10. avatar
    gorefan October 18, 2010 at 10:38 pm #

    misha: BTW, your idol Lakin posted a “Certification of a vital record.” Ha ha.

    The copy that I saw of Lakin’s certifcate did not have a signature from the doctor, the registrar or even his mother. All the names were typewritten.

  11. avatar
    Keith October 18, 2010 at 10:46 pm #

    This is a much better video to analyze to get inside the birther mind:

    The Birther’s Manifesto

    There isn’t much to see on this one, but I recommend you turn the volume way up, it might be a bit difficult to hear otherwise.

    I found another version, but it seems that somebody got to them with some tips on presentation. It is much, much, more sophisticated. The must have run out of money before they started working on their campaign ads. Volume still helps though.

    The Birther’s Manifesto: Director’s Cut

  12. avatar
    Black Lion October 18, 2010 at 10:58 pm #

    From Gretawire…

    http://gretawire.forums.foxnews.com/topic/disabled-vet-writes-to-bill-oreilly-about-obamas-ineligibility-to-be-potus

    Reader issues challenge to Bill O’Reilly

    http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/10/17/reader-issues-challenge-to-bill-oreilly/

    IS HE INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST, AFRAID OF LOSING HIS HEFTY PAYCHECK, OR BOTH?

    Dear Editor: The following letter has been sent to Bill O’Reilly of the Fox News Channel, who announces every evening who the “patriots” and “pinheads” are but refuses to discuss the most important issue of our time: Obama’s eligibility problem.

    Dear Bill,

    I am a disabled vet and gave my country 20 years of service (ten years in the Air Force and ten years in the Navy) from 1969-1989.

    Back in the 70’s, I had been spit on at the San Francisco airport coming back from the Far East; I never had yellow ribbons welcoming me back home….you get the point.

    But I have NEVER been more upset and demoralized by the following people: You, Beck, Coulter and Malkin…and I could go on with lots more names

    Normally, when I watch your show, Bill, I applaud your loyalty to the “truth” and your determination to have an intelligent discussion with your guests on important issues.

    But when ANYONE at Fox is even approached with the question of Obama’s birth certificate, you go running for the hills.

    I am a VERY good friend of the wonderful conservative radio show host, Barry Farber, in New York (call him and ask him who I am). Barry’s cell is 212-xxx-xxxx) and for the last 1 years, Barry has invited me on HIS show as a guest more than a dozen times to have an INTELLIGENT discussion of the eligibility issue.

    I have a feeling you probably have a modicum of respect for Barry for his intelligence, character and his 50 years of service to the microphone. HE is a devout “birther”…does that make HIM a pinhead?

  13. avatar
    richCares October 18, 2010 at 11:52 pm #

    ”…does that make HIM a pinhead?
    YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  14. avatar
    racosta October 19, 2010 at 12:10 am #

    So she requested a long form in July and here it is October and no view of a long form yet and birthers think this is good! WOW

  15. avatar
    gorefan October 19, 2010 at 12:16 am #

    Bovril: As far as I can ascertain from the video (dated July of this year) there is confusion on the part of both the woman and the clerk as to whether she is ordering a BC (a COLB) or a HHL BC (a “Longer Form”).

    I’m sure you all have been over this a million times, but, according to the Hawaiian Homelands website:

    “The Department of Hawaiian Home Lands accepts both Certificates of Live Birth (original birth certificate) and Certifications of Live Birth because they are official government records documenting an individual’s birth. The Certificate of Live Birth generally has more information which is useful for genealogical purposes as compared to the Certification of Live Birth which is a computer-generated printout that provides specific details of a person’s birth. Although original birth certificates (Certificates of Live Birth) are preferred for their greater detail, the State Department of Health (DOH) no longer issues Certificates of Live Birth. When a request is made for a copy of a birth certificate, the DOH issues a Certification of Live Birth.”

    And I hear the woman say she already has a certificate of live birth. So what exactly does this video show?

  16. avatar
    Hawaiiborn October 19, 2010 at 12:51 am #

    I’m not sure what is going on, as there is no accompanying description.

    The DoH office doesn’t look like that, the one on Punchbowl in Downtown Honolulu. There are no “glass” windows around the clerk.

    So, what office is that? Could be on another island or something, but again the video doesn’t say.

    No context as to why the woman in brown is saying what she is saying

    and as of October 2008, the “Certification of Live birth” no longer exists. It is now a “Certificate of Live Birth)

  17. avatar
    Whatever4 October 19, 2010 at 1:05 am #

    This video shows that the “researcher” from the Post and Email went to the small office, and waited in line filming the people ahead of her. A completely innocent woman ahead of her, oblivious to the filming, is transacting business — what kind of business, we don’t know — and the “researcher” has splashed this poor woman’s backside all over the internet. (The “researcher talked about this in an interview.) Maybe she was applying for some Hawaiian program, maybe she was researching her ancestry, maybe she needed some document for health purposes. We don’t know because she wasn’t acquainted with the person filming. She didn’t film the entire transaction — she was called to another counter and had to stop spying on the civilian.

    We get a snippet of something mundane. Interesting? Nope. An aha moment? Nope. Notice that the videographer didn’t ASK the woman anything? She flew all the way to Hawaii to research the “birth certificate” and didn’t bother to ask someone she filmed what she was doing?

    Since the poor woman wasn’t part of the birthers and has no idea she was filmed (until someone breaks it to her), of COURSE there isn’t the subsequent long form splashed all over the net. There’s also no birthers that have managed to obtain a simple Hawaiian
    $10 long form for themselves, or managed to talk a Hawaiian friend into getting one.

  18. avatar
    AnotherBird October 19, 2010 at 6:22 am #

    Whatever4: There’s also no birthers that have managed to obtain a simple Hawaiian
    $10 long form for themselves, or managed to talk a Hawaiian friend into getting one.

    And that is the main point. We have seen many Certification of Live Births posted using the same format.

  19. avatar
    DaveH October 19, 2010 at 8:07 am #

    I think the point of this video – if there is a point – is that you can order a long form BC from Hawaii. As to IF you get one or not is the question.

    To the person that posted the video. WHERE’S THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE?

  20. avatar
    Sef October 19, 2010 at 9:38 am #

    I notice (via a veromi search) that LTC Lakin spent some time in Hawaii (probably posted there). I wonder if any of his children were born there. If so, he should be able to request this elusive long form BC.

  21. avatar
    mrnopants October 19, 2010 at 10:55 am #

    By the way…this is the umpteenth person who claims to have gotten a ‘long form’ from Hawaii…..crowed about it…THEN DIDN’T SHOW THE FORM AFTERWARDS!..

    ALL LIARS.

  22. avatar
    gorefan October 19, 2010 at 11:29 am #

    Maybe the woman is trying to get a copy of a death certificate? And says to the clerk, “I thought I had a copy [of the death certifcate], all I had was that certificate of live birth [for the person who passed away]”.

    Since she says “that certificate of live birth” instead of “a certificate of live birth” suggests she handed the certificate to the clerk to review.

  23. avatar
    AnotherBird October 19, 2010 at 12:11 pm #

    gorefan: Maybe the woman is trying to get a copy of a death certificate? And says to the clerk, “I thought I had a copy [of the death certifcate],all I had was that certificate of live birth [for the person who passed away]“.Since she says “that certificate of live birth” instead of “a certificate of live birth” suggests she handed the certificate to the clerk to review.

    There are other suspicions that I have with the video.

    I agree she referred to the current birth certificate in her possession as “that Certificate of Live Birth,” which is kind of strange if she is ordering a new birth certificate.

    The transaction could be different that what is attempted to be presented by the author of the video. Hearing only bits of the woman’s conversation, and nothing from the clerk it is impossible to determine the transaction.

    It seems the author of the video is looking for something that really isn’t there.

  24. avatar
    gorefan October 19, 2010 at 12:24 pm #

    AnotherBird: Hearing only bits of the woman’s conversation, and nothing from the clerk it is impossible to determine the transaction.

    There is also almost no conversation between the clerk and the woman before she says, “How long does it take.” This suggests that she’s been to the window at least once before, and the clerk already knew what she wanted. Maybe she had to fill out the form and was returning it to the same window.

    AnotherBird: It seems the author of the video is looking for something that really isn’t there.

    That wouldn’t be the first time.

  25. avatar
    Reality Check October 19, 2010 at 12:38 pm #

    I thought Miki Booth from OK was going to order a long from birth certificate from Hawaii for her son? I haven’t seen that one either. How did her run for Congress go?

  26. avatar
    Greg October 19, 2010 at 1:04 pm #

    Whatever4: This video shows that the “researcher” from the Post and Email went to the small office, and waited in line filming the people ahead of her. A completely innocent woman ahead of her, oblivious to the filming

    Hawaii surveillance laws require that at least one party to the conversation give consent to the recording. If the video-taper went to the window and video-taped his/her own conversation with the clerk, that’s legal. Videotaping someone’s conversation with the clerk, both parties being ignorant of the taping … doesn’t seem legal.

  27. avatar
    Greg October 19, 2010 at 1:05 pm #

    Link for Hawaii surveillance laws. I think I messed up the html in the last post.

  28. avatar
    mrnopants October 19, 2010 at 2:31 pm #

    Miki Booth did order one….THEN DIDN’T SHOW IT ANYWHERE……she obviously didn’t get what she wanted and lied about it……many birfoons claim to have gotten a ‘long form.’….NOT A SINGLE ONE HAS SHOWN IT ANYWHERE.

  29. avatar
    jamese777 October 19, 2010 at 4:38 pm #

    I had a $200 donation to the FreeRepublic.com web site riding on anyone posting a long form Hawai’i birth certificate issued after 2001.
    Just yesterday a poster to freerepublic by the user name of “Danae” said that she had just received her Hawai’i long form. I made the bet sometime back in the Spring of this year and “Danae” took me up on it.
    I told her to scan it and post a copy and I’d pay up. That hasn’t happened yet.

    Lady in brown…Is that YOU Danae?

  30. avatar
    Bovril October 19, 2010 at 4:49 pm #

    Just make sure they don’t try and fob you off with a HHL native blood line BC as a “Long Form”

  31. avatar
    Gregory October 19, 2010 at 7:08 pm #

    To me, it seems clear that the lady is ordering a normal Hawaiian birth certificate (like the one Obama posted online). She probably needs to send her BC to some agency or other. Based on the video, she apparently still has her original birth document, but (for obvious reasons) is unwilling to part with it. She is therefore ordering a new BC so she can send it instead.

    Or, in birtherspeak: the woman in the video has her “long form” BC, and is ordering her “short form” BC.

    How ironic.

  32. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 19, 2010 at 9:03 pm #

    Gregory: To me, it seems clear that the lady is ordering a normal Hawaiian birth certificate (like the one Obama posted online). She probably needs to send her BC to some agency or other. Based on the video, she apparently still has her original birth document, but (for obvious reasons) is unwilling to part with it. She is therefore ordering a new BC so she can send it instead.

    This is certainly a viable theory. She says that “all I have is a Certificate of Live Birth” which is the proper title of the long form.

    Another viable theory is that the audio portion of the video is wholly fabricated.

  33. avatar
    Danae October 19, 2010 at 9:17 pm #

    Oh jamese777…… No, I am not the lady in brown, I have no idea who or what that is.

    But, you will be happy to know that the proof has been posted.

    That’s 200 dollars to Free Republic I do believe… :)

  34. avatar
    Bovril October 19, 2010 at 9:34 pm #

    Linky link please

  35. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 19, 2010 at 9:40 pm #

    Yeah, and make sure we can feel the raised bumps on the seal too

  36. avatar
    Bovril October 19, 2010 at 9:52 pm #

    J’accuse…vous êtes Squeekers….8-)

  37. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 19, 2010 at 9:57 pm #

    lol. You guessed it, bovril

  38. avatar
    GeorgetownJD October 19, 2010 at 10:01 pm #

    Danae: Oh jamese777…… No, I am not the lady in brown, I have no idea who or what that is.But, you will be happy to know that the proof has been posted.
    That’s 200 dollars to Free Republic I do believe…

    You posted a SCAN of some Certificate of Live Birth. With all the redactions there is no way to discern whether it is the “proof” that you claim it is. Your real name is splashed all over the intertoobz so it is no secret — why redact your own name from this document? And where is the authentication that this was issued by the State of Hawaii? How do we know you didn’t Photoshop it? After all, it is a scan and there is no visible raised seal.

    What’s good for the goose …

  39. avatar
    Rickey October 19, 2010 at 10:12 pm #

    Black Lion: (quoting a birther) Dear Bill,I am a disabled vet and gave my country 20 years of service (ten years in the Air Force and ten years in the Navy) from 1969-1989.Back in the 70’s, I had been spit on at the San Francisco airport coming back from the Far East

    Gordon Smith is a liar. The stories about returning Vets being spat upon have been thoroughly discredited. There isn’t a single contemporaneous news story which documents a spitting incident.

    http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=350

    One tip-off is that many of the people spinning these tall tales, such as Smith, say that it happened when they arrived at the San Francisco airport. The problem is that returning soldiers and sailors didn’t fly into San Francisco International. They flew into Travis Air Force Base.

    I flew into Travis Air Force Base in January, 1969 and then took a bus to San Francisco International to catch a flight home. I was in the airport, in uniform, for about eight hours waiting for a flight. Nobody treated me with disrespect. Quite the opposite, in fact. Over the course of the next two years I was in uniform in airports in New York, Los Angeles, San Diego, New Orleans, and Reno, and I never heard as much as a disparaging remark from anyone.

  40. avatar
    gorefan October 19, 2010 at 10:17 pm #

    Danae: But, you will be happy to know that the proof has been posted.

    What procedure did you go through to get a long form? Obviously not the normal fill out the form and send in the $10. Did you tell the DOH that whoever you were submitting your BC to, would not accept the short form? I guess what I’m asking is, did you have to make up a story to get it?

  41. avatar
    Bovril October 19, 2010 at 10:20 pm #

    Linkies

    http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g172/Danae_photos/?action=view&current=SettleTheBet1.jpg

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2606951/posts?q=1&;page=1151

    Not even a good attempt

    NOT a “Long Form”
    No seal
    No signature
    Not (to use the favorite Birfoon phrase) contemperaneous i.e. not just issued

  42. avatar
    Gregory October 19, 2010 at 10:55 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Another viable theory is that the audio portion of the video is wholly fabricated.

    I very much doubt that the audio was fabricated. After all, if the audio were fabricated then the dialogue would presumably be far less ambiguous about the nature of the transaction. Furthermore, the incidental sounds (like the page flipping) match the video precisely. Lastly, the beginning of the conversation between the lady and the clerk is barely audible – even although the jostling of the camera makes the initial exchange pretty much unintelligible.

    Most significantly – in the portion of the conversation that is audible – the lady tells the clerk, “I thought I had a copy but all I could find was this certificate of live birth.” In other words, the lady thought she had an (extra) copy of her BC, but because she could not find such a copy – she now needs to order another copy (for $10 – which is the correct fee in Hawaii) from the clerk.

    I say, case closed.

  43. avatar
    gorefan October 19, 2010 at 10:59 pm #

    Bovril: Not even a good attempt

    Why is there no date from the past several months with a signature from the current registrar and no statement about this begining a true copy of information held by the DOH. Also no raised seal,

    I don’t know that I would dismiss it yet. I’ve always believed that someone could obtain a long form BC if they had a good enough story. And if Danae can explain some of the discrepancies, if might become more believable. If this is a fake it came from the Janna Racheal, 1971 BC.

  44. avatar
    Bovril October 19, 2010 at 11:01 pm #

    What else

    Not on security paper
    No “This copy serves as prima….”
    No “Any alteration invalidates….”
    Etc

  45. avatar
    gorefan October 19, 2010 at 11:19 pm #

    Also date accepted is a Thursday not a Friday as Butterbezillion claims. Also why are their lower fields for the race of the parents? No other BC’s from that period have anything like that.

  46. avatar
    gorefan October 19, 2010 at 11:28 pm #

    Here is an interesting anomaly – on the 1971 Jenna BC, her certifiacte number is 71 015396 and the certification number for Danae is 69 009351. So all of the digits necessary to create Danae’s number were on the Jenna BC. In fact, they could have just reversed them 1539 to become 9351.

  47. avatar
    Hawaiiborn October 19, 2010 at 11:44 pm #

    Bovril: Linkieshttp://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g172/Danae_photos/?action=view&current=SettleTheBet1.jpghttp://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2606951/posts?q=1&;page=1151Not even a good attemptNOT a “Long Form”
    No seal
    No signature
    Not (to use the favorite Birfoon phrase) contemperaneous i.e. not just issued

    wow that is so fake…..

  48. avatar
    gorefan October 19, 2010 at 11:47 pm #

    Here is the Janna BC for anyone who doesn’t have it.

    http://www.rewardforobamasbirthcertificate.com/images/birthcertificate.jpg

  49. avatar
    gorefan October 19, 2010 at 11:52 pm #

    Another anomaly – under the state where the mother is born – Oregon – the line on the printed form becomes faint under the gon in Oregon. This could mean a cut and paste.

  50. avatar
    Hawaiiborn October 19, 2010 at 11:53 pm #

    And there was never a hospital in Honolulu called Kaiser Foundation Hospital; its always been known as Kaiser Medical Center or Moanalua Medical Center or the Kaiser Permanente Honolulu Clinic.

    Kaiser Foundation Hospital is the name of the group (foundation) that runs the individual hospitals in Hawaii, its not a SPECIFIC hospital.

  51. avatar
    Hawaiiborn October 20, 2010 at 12:03 am #

    Also the MD – a quick google search pulled up this doctor of the same name:

    http://www.healthgrades.com/directory_search/physician/profiles/dr-md-reports/dr-larry-moncur-md-74500e66

    Seems to be about the right age (75 as listed on the site)

  52. avatar
    gorefan October 20, 2010 at 12:04 am #

    More anomalies in Danae’s BC – the font size for number and street – 5320-7 Likini Street is different from the the next line the “Mother Mailing Address” line. Both would have been typed in, presumably with the same typewriter, although on the Janna BC the “Mother Mailing Address” is left blank.

    Maybe Danae should have done the same thing. LOL

  53. avatar
    James M October 20, 2010 at 12:40 am #

    Ummmm.. If Obama posted a document exactly like Danae’s it would actually *fuel* the birther movement. It certainly would not satisfy them. This is hilarious.

  54. avatar
    John Patlin October 20, 2010 at 1:04 am #

    Is this the same woman who posted a forged BC on Freerepublic last year? She talked her way out of it enough to satisfy some, but not all. I’m almost sure it was “Danae” but I could be wrong.

  55. avatar
    gorefan October 20, 2010 at 1:04 am #

    James M: If Obama posted a document exactly like Danae’s it would actually *fuel* the birther movement. It certainly would not satisfy them. This is hilarious.

    That is exactly my point in showing the “anomalies”. Do I think that Danae’s BC is a fake? Actually, I don’t know or care. But I can pretty much guarantee you that anything that is put up on the internet will have anomlies and immediately be suspect in certain circles.

    I remember some months back, politico.com asked some Republican Congressman if they would post their BC’s on the internet. One of them Congessman Bob Goodlatte of Virginia took them up on it. And when I looked at it, I thought this could be a forgery. The printed text was very faint, while the handwritten parts were very rich and clear. It looked like someone had made a copy of a copy of a BC, whited out the handwritten info and added new handwritten info.

    So, do I think Congressman Goodlatte posted a forged BC, of course not. But then i’m not a birther.

  56. avatar
    Kupuna October 20, 2010 at 2:18 am #

    Danae: Oh jamese777…… No, I am not the lady in brown, I have no idea who or what that is.But, you will be happy to know that the proof has been posted. That’s 200 dollars to Free Republic I do believe…

    AUWE!! You are full of kukae Danae. You might have fooled some Freepers, but Native Hawaiians like myself, who have made sincere inquiries to the DOH & DHHL for “the old” copies of mine & our family members’ birth documents, know that you are a total liar. As penance, I suggest that you make a $200 donation to Kapiolani Medical Center for Women & Children, the Birthplace of President Barack Hussein Obama.

    Aloha & Goodnight, from Honolulu Hawai’i

  57. avatar
    Keith October 20, 2010 at 3:19 am #

    Rickey: Over the course of the next two years I was in uniform in airports in New York, Los Angeles, San Diego, New Orleans, and Reno, and I never heard as much as a disparaging remark from anyone.

    Thank you for that comment, Rickey. I was as against the war in Viet Nam as much as anybody I knew. I marched, I wrote letters, I participated in sit-ins, I held vigil for the Kent State Massacre. I didn’t burn any flags, or even my draft card. I didn’t take over any ROTC buildings, or barricade myself in the University President’s office, but I was certainly an active participant in “the Movement”.

    I was not unique and I am not claiming any goodness or badness for that. But in all my dealings with anti-War activists, some of whom were much more radical than me (and did take over the ROTC building), I never knew one to be disrespectful of soldiers who chose to serve. They certainly tried to convince them that choice was the wrong choice, or that Canada was an option to escape the draft.

    I will admit that I heard of some name calling at Pentagon Brass (and certainly at civilian politicians), but I never witnessed disrespect to any returning serviceman. Especially at the end – what could possibly be the point of that?

    I never even heard the rumor of spitting and other stuff until at least 1986, and I was in Australia by then and had it repeated to me by an Australian who wasn’t even alive in 1969. I didn’t want to believe it, but I had no way to confirm or deny it. I certainly couldn’t interview every returned serviceman, and there are a lot of weird people out there,

    So thank you for relating your experience, and restoring my faith in my fellow Americans to that extent at least.

  58. avatar
    AnotherBird October 20, 2010 at 5:49 am #

    Bovril: Linkieshttp://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g172/Danae_photos/?action=view&current=SettleTheBet1.jpghttp://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2606951/posts?q=1&;page=1151Not even a good attemptNOT a “Long Form”
    No seal
    No signature
    Not (to use the favorite Birfoon phrase) contemperaneous i.e. not just issued

    Also, no a date indicating it was released on or after 2001.

  59. avatar
    Jules October 20, 2010 at 6:56 am #

    Bovril: Linkieshttp://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g172/Danae_photos/?action=view&current=SettleTheBet1.jpghttp://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2606951/posts?q=1&;page=1151Not even a good attemptNOT a “Long Form”
    No seal
    No signature
    Not (to use the favorite Birfoon phrase) contemperaneous i.e. not just issued

    A certified photocopy would contain a statement that it is a copy of the original. It would also state the date on which the photocopy was produced. The date would be how we would know that it was produced after 2001. Even if it were genuine, it would fail to meet jamese777’s challenge.

  60. avatar
    Jules October 20, 2010 at 7:30 am #

    This Guardian video seems to feature an example of the crazy wing of the American electorate.

    I really don’t know how you can argue with such a voter whose views are so clearly out of touch with reality.

    The members of the British Labour Party whom I know would be shocked to hear that Obama is some sort of socialist. After all, they were rather disappointed when I explained that even the Democrats’ dream of healthcare reform would look nothing like the NHS.

    What that voter describes as “enough information to have doubts” about Obama’s birth in the US is stronger proof of birth in the USA than any other President has ever provided.

    Obama’s supposed presence on “both sides of the religious divide” seems to be what I have long understood to be respect for freedom of religion.

  61. avatar
    Bovril October 20, 2010 at 7:53 am #

    (Puts Birfoon hat on….adds tinfoil…engages reality distortion field)

    Ahhhh but all YOU LIBERALS don’t get IT!!!!!

    Danae didn’t ask for a CERTIFYED COPY!!!!! SO NO SEAL BUT ITS GUD AS ANY OTHER BIRF CERTOFIOCATE.

    SO pay up cOWARDly demo-RAT HAHA

    Tee-Hee.

    (Disengages RDF…removes cranial cover, gargles with bleach/vinegar/mustard gas combo to remove foul taste…)

    We now return to your regularly scheduled programming

  62. avatar
    Sef October 20, 2010 at 9:56 am #

    Danae: Oh jamese777…… No, I am not the lady in brown, I have no idea who or what that is.But, you will be happy to know that the proof has been posted.
    That’s 200 dollars to Free Republic I do believe…

    A couple other points of interest about this “Certificate of Live Birth”. Why did the doctor wait 6 days to sign it? Why is the father’s age visible, but the mother’s expurgated? Inquiring minds want to know. There also does not appear to be a “Date Filed”. The software used to create this was Paint.NET v3.5.5.

  63. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) October 20, 2010 at 10:08 am #

    Hawaiiborn: And there was never a hospital in Honolulu called Kaiser Foundation Hospital; its always been known as Kaiser Medical Center or Moanalua Medical Center or the Kaiser Permanente Honolulu Clinic.Kaiser Foundation Hospital is the name of the group (foundation) that runs the individual hospitals in Hawaii, its not a SPECIFIC hospital.

    I was thinking the same thing last night. Usually their hospitals have separate names or are called Kaiser Permanente, they would not be known as Kaiser Foundation Hospital.

  64. avatar
    ASK Esq October 20, 2010 at 10:10 am #

    Forget about the long form. It doesn’t matter. Even if someone obtains one now, it would have no bearing on the valid COLB that President Obama released. It would simply give the birthers more irrelevant drivel to spout.

    I want to see a birther walk into a Hawaii DOH office and get a BC for someone born in the 1960’s outside of the US that says they were born in Honolulu. According to the birthers, those are easy to get.

  65. avatar
    AnotherBird October 20, 2010 at 10:45 am #

    ASK Esq: I want to see a birther walk into a Hawaii DOH office and get a BC for someone born in the 1960′s outside of the US that says they were born in Honolulu. According to the birthers, those are easy to get.

    It is always easy for birthers to make claims, and as we have seen they rarely follow through. It would have been easier for them to get someone born in Hawaii to attempt to get a “long form” than seemingly lurking around a government office. It harder birthers try the sillier they make themselves seem, and this video is a perfect example.

  66. avatar
    jamese777 October 20, 2010 at 11:52 am #

    FYI:

    The following is from a post on FreeRepublic:
    Kaiser Foundation Hospital

    http://www.ucomparehealthcare.com/hospital/hawaii/kaiser_foundation_hospital.html

    Kaiser Foundation Hospital-
    Medical Jobs in HawaiiHonolulu, Hawaii
    Hospital Address 3288 Moanalua Rd
    Honolulu, HI 96819

    Kaiser Foundation Hospital is a non-profit acute care hospital based at 3288 Moanalua Road in Honolulu, HI. The facility is accredited and provides emergency services.

    http://citehealth.com/hospitals/hawaii/cities/honolulu/kaiser-foundation-hospital

    http://www.ineedahotel.com/map_of_hotels_near_attractions/105293-kaiser_foundation_hospital.html?sortby=distance

  67. avatar
    anonymous October 20, 2010 at 12:24 pm #

    for those of you who belive that barry was born in Hawaii, where do you hang the plaque?

  68. avatar
    richCares October 20, 2010 at 12:36 pm #

    “for those of you who belive that barry was born in Hawaii, where do you hang the plaque?”
    .
    Why, Kapi’olani Hospital, of course. They highlight Obama’s birth in their centenial magazine, they even include a copy of Obama’s letter. Why do you ask?
    http://www.kapiolanigift.org/doc/centennial-magazine.pdf

  69. avatar
    sfjeff October 20, 2010 at 12:38 pm #

    “for those of you who belive that barry was born in Hawaii, where do you hang the plaque?”

    I have it hanging in my living room.

  70. avatar
    Majority Will October 20, 2010 at 12:43 pm #

    anonymous: for those of you who belive that barry was born in Hawaii, where do you hang the plaque?

    Who is Barry? Is that your invisible friend? What does “belive” mean other than you’re an illiterate coward with more spare time than common sense?

  71. avatar
    Rickey October 20, 2010 at 12:45 pm #

    anonymous: for those of you who belive that barry was born in Hawaii, where do you hang the plaque?

    Who is Barry? And why would I “belive” anything about this person?

  72. avatar
    jamese777 October 20, 2010 at 12:50 pm #

    anonymous: for those of you who belive that barry was born in Hawaii, where do you hang the plaque?

    There’s one hanging in the office of the Republican Governor of Hawaii, LInda Lingle.

    The Governor of Hawai’i said: “I had my health director, who is a physician by way of background, go and personally view the birth certiificate in the birth records of the Department of Health, and we issued a news release at that time saying that the President was, in fact, born at Kapi’olani Hospital in Honolulu, Hawai’i. And that’s just a fact. And yet people continue to call up and e-mail and want to make it an issue. And I think it’s, again, a horrible distraction for the country by those people who continue this. It’s been established. He was born here.”

  73. avatar
    anonymous October 20, 2010 at 12:57 pm #

    ok, I’ll bite. who was the doctor?

  74. avatar
    Majority Will October 20, 2010 at 1:05 pm #

    anonymous: ok, I’ll bite. who was the doctor?

    I’ll tell you if you can name the birth hospital for any President before Carter. Just name one. That’s a lot of Presidents.

    You can name at least one, right?

    Go on, birther coward. Put up or STFU.

  75. avatar
    Majority Will October 20, 2010 at 1:06 pm #

    anonymous: ok, I’ll bite. who was the doctor?

    Don’t you mean gum, toothless birther bigot?

  76. avatar
    anonymous October 20, 2010 at 1:14 pm #

    hahahahhahahaha, you guys are dying on the vine

  77. avatar
    jamese777 October 20, 2010 at 1:17 pm #

    ok, I’ll bite. who was the doctor?
    His name was Rodney T. West, MD.

    Do you know the name of George W, Bush’s birth doctor?

  78. avatar
    jamese777 October 20, 2010 at 1:22 pm #

    More on Barack Obama’s birth doctor:
    “I may be the only person left who specifically remembers his birth. His parents are gone, his grandmother is gone, the obstetrician who delivered him is gone,” said Nelson, referring to Dr. Rodney T. West, who died in February at the age of 98.

    Here’s the story: Nelson was having dinner at the Outrigger Canoe Club on Waikiki Beach with Dr. West, the father of her college friend, Jo-Anne. Making conversation, Nelson turned to Dr. West and said: “So, tell me something interesting that happened this week,’” she recalls. His response: “Well, today, Stanley had a baby.

    Now that’s something to write home about.” The new mother was Stanley (later referred to by her middle name of Ann) Dunham, and the baby was Barack Hussein Obama. “I penned the name on a napkin, and I did write home about it,” said Nelson, knowing that her father, Stanley A. Czurles, director of the Art Education Department at Buffalo State College, would be interested in the “Stanley” connection.

    She also remembers Dr. West mentioning that the baby’s father was the first black student at the University of Hawaii and how taken he was by the baby’s name.

    Dr Conspiracy got the following email:

    Our records show that Dr. Rodney T. West was Chief of Staff at Kapiolani Hospital in 1953. He was certified by the American Board of Obstetrics & Gynecology in 1958 and practiced at The Straub Clinic and Hospital until his retirement in December 1977.
    Thank you for your interest.
    The Queens Medical Center
    Mamiya Medical Heritage Center
    On the same thread a poster confirms that Rodney West was in fact still delivering babies.
    Catherine West Dale says:
    March 24, 2010 at 2:58 pm Catherine West Dale(Quote)
    “My great uncle was Dr Rodney West, and he delivered me at Kapiolani Hospital on March 26, 1961, the same year Obama was born. That is a fact and it is on my birth certificate.”

    Catherine West Dale says:

    March 25, 2010 at 11:56 am Catherine West Dale(Quote)
    I’ll ask my dad, he knows a lot more about his uncle than I do.

    Also wanted to add that Dr Rodney T. West delivered my sister at Kapiolani Hospital in Mar 1964.

  79. avatar
    Majority Will October 20, 2010 at 1:27 pm #

    anonymous: hahahahhahahaha, you guys are dying on the vine

    You’re not making sense and you didn’t answer the question. You came here, birther coward. So, you must be pretty lonely and desperate to seek out validation for your delusional bigotry.

    Name the birth hospital for any President before Carter. Just name one. That’s a lot of Presidents.

    You can name at least one, right? Put up or STFU, coward.

    You have set the standard based solely on your own paranoia and fear of dark skinned people unless you can point out where in U.S. law or the Constitution there is a requirement for providing the doctor’s name or birth hospital to prove eligibility.

    Birthers like you are ridiculed for good reason because you’re a dying breed of racist cowards. You are an un-American embarassment to the United States. You will not be missed.

  80. avatar
    Daniel October 20, 2010 at 1:30 pm #

    anonymous: hahahahhahahaha, you guys are dying on the vine

    Yes we are… and getting more and more desperate. Every time we meet birthers in court we lose. Every time…

    71 times and counting and birthers have won every time. It’s so disheartening.

    Oh wait…. no I forgot. It’s the birthers who have lost in court every time.

    I’m sorry.. who was it you thought was dying on the vine?

  81. avatar
    NBC October 20, 2010 at 1:50 pm #

    Bovril: Danae

    Funny how she appears to have had a similar document all this time…

    It was shown in a posting in November 2009, and she still has a picture in her photobucket that dates 0223 2010

    Care to explain Danae?

  82. avatar
    Obsolete October 20, 2010 at 1:52 pm #

    Both of mr. anon’s questions were answered. (hospital, doctor). Did he even thank anyone here? Sheesh!

  83. avatar
    NBC October 20, 2010 at 2:04 pm #

    Perhaps Danae would like to post another iPhone picture showing the background? Will we see some of the telltale folds?

  84. avatar
    NBC October 20, 2010 at 2:07 pm #

    Heck there is a dust speck just above the bottom line in that picture which also appears to show up in the latest document…

    Coincidence….

  85. avatar
    Adam October 20, 2010 at 2:40 pm #

    jamese777: I had a $200 donation to the FreeRepublic.com web site riding on anyone posting a long form Hawai’i birth certificate issued after 2001.Just yesterday a poster to freerepublic by the user name of “Danae” said that she had just received her Hawai’i long form. I made the bet sometime back in the Spring of this year and “Danae” took me up on it.I told her to scan it and post a copy and I’d pay up. That hasn’t happened yet.Lady in brown…Is that YOU Danae?

    Freeper Pissant claims he received a long-form, but he says it was a hasstle and involved lots of phone calls and pestering of the relevant officials. Perhaps you should Freepmail him about your bet.

  86. avatar
    gorefan October 20, 2010 at 2:54 pm #

    Adam: but he says it was a hasstle and involved lots of phone calls and pestering of the relevant officials

    It makes sense that if you have a good enough story, that DOH would send you a long form BC. If you told them that your about to take a new job and the employer won’t accept a short form BC.

  87. avatar
    brygenon October 20, 2010 at 2:55 pm #

    Hawaii has an Open Records Law, part of their Uniform Information Practices Act, which is similar to the federal Freedom of Information Act. See: http://www.state.hi.us/oip/uipa.html If Hawaii has the original long-form record or a microfilm image, the subject ought to be able to obtain a copy. The catch is that a copy of the original document, lacking the seal of the state office and attestation of the record keeper, is not an official birth certificate.
    http://www.state.hi.us/oip/uipa.html

    The seal and attestation are the features Congress specified to prove nonjudicial state records. See 28 U.S.C. 1739. These features do not address the truth of the information on the original record; they simply show that the state presents the document as an official legal record, and thus invoke the “full faith and credit” clause of the U.S. Constitution, Article IV, Section I.

    “Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.”

    Birthers are awfully selective in which parts of the Constitution they respect.

  88. avatar
    NBC October 20, 2010 at 2:58 pm #

    I managed to overlay the two documents, they appear identical, including the dust spec

  89. avatar
    Reality Check October 20, 2010 at 2:58 pm #

    Danae has been busted. They want to believe their lies so badly they will stoop to stunts like this.

  90. avatar
    NBC October 20, 2010 at 3:02 pm #

    Let’s see if Danae posts an actual scan and we can determine if the two documents are indeed the same. The older document shows a seal…

    Any bets where the seal of the ‘latest’ document will be? Do we believe in coincidence?

  91. avatar
    Reality Check October 20, 2010 at 3:17 pm #

    NBC: Let’s see if Danae posts an actual scan and we can determine if the two documents are indeed the same. The older document shows a seal…

    Any bets where the seal of the latest’ document will be? Do we believe in coincidence?

    She will never do it because she knows she has been caught in a fraud. It is time to stonewall.

  92. avatar
    gorefan October 20, 2010 at 3:20 pm #

    NBC: I managed to overlay the two documents, they appear identical, including the dust spec

    So she might have just lightened the background to remove fold marks and smudges, then reposted her old BC? That’s funny. And it certainly explains the washed out look of her “new” document. Also the lack of a current date. Yes, a side by side (old and new) iphone phote is needed.

    I can actually understand the fustration they must have over at birther sites. You are absolutely convince your theories are right but nobody, not the courts (civilian and military), not the law school professors, not the Republican establishment, absolutely nobody accepts agrees with you. That’s got to be fustrating. Especially for someone like Dianna, who gets pretty hysterical over this stuff.

  93. avatar
    GeorgetownJD October 20, 2010 at 3:30 pm #

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

    “Red Steel” and his fellow FReepers are not happy about the scrutiny that [Dannae] COLB is drawing here at Doc’s. Red has stooped so low as to create FReep accounts with our screen names in order to get them zotted:

    Kapuna a Zot

    http://www.freerepublic.com/~Kupuna/

    gorefan a Zot

    http://www.freerepublic.com/~gorefan/

    James M a Zot

    http://www.freerepublic.com/~JamesM/

    Hawaiiborn a Zot

    http://www.freerepublic.com/~Hawaiiborn/

    John Patlin a Zot

    http://www.freerepublic.com/~JohnPatlin/

    Bovril a Zot

    http://www.freerepublic.com/~Bovril/

    Black Lion a Zot

    http://www.freerepublic.com/~BlackLion/

    GeorgetownJD a Zot

    http://www.freerepublic.com/~GeorgetownJD/

    mrnopants a Zot

    http://www.freerepublic.com/~mrnopants/

    An the head Rat Dr. Conspiracy is a Zot

    http://www.freerepublic.com/~drconspiracy/

    I’ve never registered at FReep cause I don’t go slumming at RWNJ sites that require me to register. Never at FReep, never at GretaWire, etc. That leads to only one conclusion: Red registered using my screen name. How desperate that he must resort to fraud.

  94. avatar
    nbc October 20, 2010 at 4:04 pm #

    There is definitely evidence that she lightened out rectangles but she forgot a telltale dust mark. Of course, all she needs to do is post a color scan including the raised seal and date stamp.

    I doubt we will be hearing anymore from Danae..

    gorefan:
    So she might have just lightened the background to remove fold marks and smudges, then reposted her old BC?That’s funny.And it certainly explains the washed out look of her “new” document.Also the lack of a current date.Yes, a side by side (old and new) iphone phote is needed.I can actually understand the fustration they must have over at birther sites.You are absolutely convince your theories are right but nobody, not the courts (civilian and military), not the law school professors, not the Republican establishment, absolutely nobody accepts agrees with you.That’s got to be fustrating.Especially for someone like Dianna, who gets pretty hysterical over this stuff.

  95. avatar
    nbc October 20, 2010 at 4:06 pm #

    Reality Check: Danaehas been busted. They want to believe their lies so badly they will stoop to stunts like this.

    I will share my research on my site later. Photoshop is a nice tool which allows you to align two layers without my effort…

    Remarkable what information can be found, such as the exif information on her jpg (which shows the bottom part) shows it was taken in Oregon on Feb 23, 2010 with an iPhone. In fact, it contains the full location…

    Hilarious…

  96. avatar
    Reality Check October 20, 2010 at 4:18 pm #

    nbc: I will share my research on my site later. Photoshop is a nice tool which allows you to align two layers without my effort…

    I am looking forward to the article, nbc. Great work today. It is very difficult to take a photo in February of a document you will not receive until 8 months in the future.

  97. avatar
    nbc October 20, 2010 at 4:22 pm #

    Reality Check:
    I am looking forward to the article, nbc. Great work today. It is very difficult to take a photo in February of a document you will not receive until 8 months in the future.

    While some of the copies of the original picture had been removed, there were others who had downloaded the jpg and archived it. It took a bit of searching. Now it’s up to Danae to show us an actual photograph of the document… I bet that under one of these rectangle shaped white areas we will find evidence of a staple, remarkably in the same location as the older one… I predict that we will see a seal and date stamp which does not match the expected date.

    Well Danae, you are already running away by refusing to show a real scan unless we meet with you in Portland…

  98. avatar
    nbc October 20, 2010 at 4:24 pm #

    I will grant Danae a presumption of innocence if she is willing to just provide the following

    a color photo of the document, the front and the back, where the only evidence of edits are areas of privacy. Even though in her jpg, you can brighten them up and still see the underlying data.

    Amateurs…

  99. avatar
    truther October 20, 2010 at 4:49 pm #

    Is it a fact that the person who posted the latest Long Form IS Danae? Did the person who posted this at Free Reublic say hser name was danae? Are we comparing apples ans apples?
    Just curious. Still lookin for TRUTH!

  100. avatar
    gorefan October 20, 2010 at 4:57 pm #

    nbc: Remarkable what information can be found, such as the exif information on her jpg (which shows the bottom part) shows it was taken in Oregon on Feb 23, 2010 with an iPhone. In fact, it contains the full location…

    Are you saying that the newest scan that showed up several days ago, can be shown to have been taken with an iphone in Feb.?

  101. avatar
    Mary Adams October 20, 2010 at 5:08 pm #

    anonymous: for those of you who belive that barry was born in Hawaii, where do you hang the plaque?

    Where’s the plaque for GWB? Where are the plaques for any other president or for that matter any celebrity???

    DUH! Hospitals don’t put up plaques for people born there, had triple bypasses there or any other medical procedure.

  102. avatar
    nbc October 20, 2010 at 5:13 pm #

    truther: Is it a fact that the person whoposted the latest Long Form IS Danae? Did the person who posted this at Free Reublic say hser name was danae? Are we comparing apples ans apples?
    Just curious. Still lookin for TRUTH!

    I am not sure you would recognize it if it slapped you in the face…

  103. avatar
    ASK Esq October 20, 2010 at 5:28 pm #

    Danae doesn’t have to worry. I hear that Dr. Ron Polarik will put his years of relevant experience towards the task of proving the authenticity of her newly posted BC.

  104. avatar
    gorefan October 20, 2010 at 5:58 pm #

    ASK Esq: Danae doesn’t have to worry.

    She might have to worry if she had Lucas Smith help her obtain her “new” BC.

  105. avatar
    Reality Check October 20, 2010 at 6:40 pm #

    gorefan: She might have to worry if she had Lucas Smith help her obtain her “new” BC.

    I think she already did. That may explain the problems. :)

  106. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross October 20, 2010 at 7:22 pm #

    To: mojitojoe
    WOW! Unbelievable? ………..Not really.

    It’s really amazing how many FR Zots are on the DR. CON thread. The whole website is nothing but FR Zots.

    Here are three more Zots from there.

    Bob Ross

    http://www.freerepublic.com/~BobRoss/

    ASK Esq

    http://www.freerepublic.com/~ASKEsq/

    Majority Will

    http://www.freerepublic.com/~MajorityWill/

    About 90% of the thread is made up of FR zots. It is Troll central. by Red Steel

    Since Redsteel is reading this. I would have hardly called myself a troll over at freerepublic. I was on that site for an entire 3 posts before I was banned because someone named Commander got his panties in a bunch. He said some stupid stuff on facebook and used to be on my friends list. I called him out, made him look foolish so he went to freerepublic asking for help after he made the claim that 6 lawfirms represented Obama over the eligibility issue. I asked him to prove it and name the firms. He couldn’t so he whined to free republic and lied about the original exchange. I then posted the original exchange while blanking out the real names of the people involved. I got banned because I called Orly Taitz crazy, which she is.

    So yeah I wouldn’t exactly call me a troll since I know you’re reading this redsteel

  107. avatar
    obsolete October 20, 2010 at 7:32 pm #

    Danae is now busted as a liar. It’s obvious she is trying to claim that her old copy is what they sent her. What a loser.

  108. avatar
    nbc October 20, 2010 at 7:34 pm #

    obsolete: Danae is now busted as a liar. It’s obvious she is trying to claim that her old copy is what they sent her. What a loser.

    Give her time to respond… There is always the possibility that she did get the document. A simple photograph would be able to resolve this quickly

  109. avatar
    gorefan October 20, 2010 at 8:07 pm #

    Reality Check: That may explain the problems.

    What is funny is that on her original post (that posted the “new” BC), she says she would have posted it sooner, but got busy. And the freepers accepted that excuse. LOL

    If you were a birther, one who had been waist deep in the BS that passes for birther logic, wouldn’t you post this piece of evidence immediately. Maybe she had to wait for the ink to dry?

    And then she continues that when they asked her if she wanted a certified copy, she said “I don’t know”. Again your a birther, you have been arguing for months about certified copies versus non-certified copies of BC, wouldn’t you just automatically say ‘hell yeah, I want a certified copy!” Even if you didn’t need one. I guess that will be the excuse when asked why there is no date stamp from September, 2010 or signature stamp from the current registrar, or statement about why this copy of a BC is proof of birth in Hawaii. And the Freepers bought that excuse hook, line and sinker.

    And as proof, she posted the receipt she got from the DOH, and there is nothing on the receipt that says if it was a long form or short form that was sent. And the Freepers buy that without a moments hesitation.

    When challenged by James777, she replies that she is willing to scan the envelope the BC came in. As if that would prove that it must have contained a long form BC. What would have happened if the President had posted the envelope that his COLB came in, on his website. The freepers would have called him a moron. But, once again the freepers, so desperate to believe anything, accepted Dianna’s story.

    I can kinda understand why the freepers are afraid to doubt anything she says, she does seem to be one of the smarter ones a fr. Unfortunately, that’s like being the smartest rock in a box of rocks.

  110. avatar
    obsolete October 20, 2010 at 8:08 pm #

    I call BS on Danae for this reason-
    Here in Illinois, when you order a birth certificate, they ask you the reason for ordering. My Mom recently ordered hers for tax purposes, and they sent her a COLB similar to Obama’s.
    I ordered one a few months ago after my dad died for inheritance purposes. In this case they sent me a photocopy of my original, which listed my parents. My mom’s COLB doesn’t list her parents. I guess Illinois figures that she didn’t need a birth certificate that did for her purpose.

    Here is mine:
    http://www.imagehosting.gr/out.php/i1466340_birth-sm.jpg

    Notice some things about mine that is different that Danae’s?
    1. It is a photocopy on security paper- you can see the border of the security paper..
    2. It is certified at the bottom for the date I ordered it (obviously different from my birthday in 1969)

    Danae’s lacks these features- it looks like my original, not as a recent one sent by the state would look with the added features I listed.
    I know her’s is not from Illinois, but do you really think that one from Hawaii would NOT include the extra features mentioned? No security paper & no recent date to certify the copy? Ridiculous- it would have those features.

    She ordered hers from Hawaii, they sent her the same COLB that they send everyone (including the President). She then scanned/photographed her original that she already had, and claimed it is what they sent her. Which has already been disproven by the scan details analysis and EXIF data.

    She is a liar.

    I wish FreeRepublic wasn’t such a cowardly site, but that is how they keep the idiot echo chamber intact.

  111. avatar
    Mary Adams October 20, 2010 at 8:13 pm #

    How about we ask Hawaii DOH if they EVER issue any kind of document without the date of issue on it?

  112. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 20, 2010 at 8:19 pm #

    It’s beyond me why anyone would believe anyone who is part of a group that has spent the past two years lying and fabricating evidence.

  113. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross October 20, 2010 at 8:25 pm #

    nbc:
    Give her time to respond… There is always the possibility that she did get the document. A simple photograph would be able to resolve this quickly

    She has responded at Freerepublic still claiming she won the bet and that we’re now making excuses. I believe the original bet was prove that they issued long forms past 2001. She has not shown any date of issuance on that certificate proving it came post 2001. Also I noticed few weird artifacts like double x near the sex in light print. @ symbols near florida and oregan very lightly. The doctors name has a weird Subscript L that doesn’t line up.

  114. avatar
    nbc October 20, 2010 at 8:25 pm #

    Mary Adams: How about we ask Hawaii DOH if they EVER issue any kind of document without the date of issue on it?

    But they would just be ‘lying’. It’s much better to ask Danae to provide us with a photograph of both sides of the document.

  115. avatar
    Mary Adams October 20, 2010 at 8:38 pm #

    nbc:
    But they would just be lying’. It’s much better to ask Danae to provide us with a photograph of both sides of the document.

    Well, you have already proved that what she claims is a document received recently is just a whitewashed copy of what she posted on the web at the beginning of the year…. down to the dot at the bottom.

    She is a liar and I hope she is brought down like Polland.

  116. avatar
    gorefan October 20, 2010 at 8:43 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross: Also I noticed few weird artifacts like double x near the sex in light print. @ symbols near florida and oregan very lightly.

    If you look at the Janna 1971 BC, there are the same type of marks, like the double xx, the number 2, or the letter a. I’m not sure but they might be some kind of manual check system, to make sure things are spelled correctly or in the correct box.

    http://www.rewardforobamasbirthcertificate.com/images/birthcertificate.jpg

  117. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 20, 2010 at 8:44 pm #

    Idiots who engage in this kind of fraud should be prosecuted. Who was it that originally claimed that Obama’s COLB was fake? Texas Darling or something like that? If she had been investigated and prosecuted for the lies she was telling, there would not have been so many copycats and nutjobs on blogs repeating the lie for two years.

    The only thing I don’t like about being a democrat is that I’m expected not to hammer anybody with the truth, yet you have these nutjob teabaggers calling Obama “The Angel of Death” in their TV ads. They have no reservations about making up a lie and forcing it on everyone

  118. avatar
    nbc October 20, 2010 at 8:46 pm #

    They could have been on the original form, which is laser printed on top of the security paper, typically.

    They are found in both documents, interesting to find out where the came from

    gorefan:
    If you look at the Janna 1971 BC, there are the same type of marks, like the double xx, the number 2, or the letter a.I’m not sure but they might be some kind of manual check system, to make sure things are spelled correctly or in the correct box.http://www.rewardforobamasbirthcertificate.com/images/birthcertificate.jpg

  119. avatar
    nbc October 20, 2010 at 8:50 pm #

    Also, if the dot is on the ‘original’ then they would show up on the same place… What troubles me most right now is the absence of security paper.

  120. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 20, 2010 at 8:57 pm #

    Anyone who claims to have gotten a long form from Hawaii when Hawaii has said they no longer give them out and haven’t since 2001 is just lying…AGAIN!

  121. avatar
    nbc October 20, 2010 at 9:00 pm #

    Not necessarily. If they can show some evidence… But so far what we have seen is inconclusive

    FUTTHESHUCKUP: Anyone who claims to have gotten a long form from Hawaii when Hawaii has said they no longer give them out and haven’t since 2001 is just lying…AGAIN!

  122. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 20, 2010 at 9:06 pm #

    Sorry, nbc, but, yes, necessarily they are lying again as they have been for two friggin’ years. The state of Hawaii knows what is available, and they have said this on their Hawaiian Homelands website.

    “Although original birth certificates (Certificates of Live Birth) are preferred for their greater detail, the State Department of Health (DOH) no longer issues Certificates of Live Birth. When a request is made for a copy of a birth certificate, the DOH issues a Certification of Live Birth.”

    http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/applicants/appforms/applyhhl

    They are just testing to see how much of their lies others will swallow. I gave up long ago believing anything they say, and Hawaii’s statement about the unavailability of the long form is enough for me to prove they are lying….AGAIN!

  123. avatar
    gorefan October 20, 2010 at 9:09 pm #

    nbc: What troubles me most right now is the absence of security paper.

    She is now saying that the reason there is no current date on her “new” BC is that Hawaii sent her an original document and you cannot put a current date on it. Also that the date on the receipt is proof that they were printed at the same time! I’m not kidding, she actually said that. And as ludicrous as that sounds, the freepers bought it.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2606951/posts?q=1&;page=1301

    post number 1348

  124. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 20, 2010 at 9:10 pm #

    When they get you chasing all their red herrings, they win because they will just stick to their lie, and others like them will believe it, especially if you go to great lengths to try to disprove it They are the proverbial jello that you try to nail to the wall.

  125. avatar
    Gary Miller October 20, 2010 at 9:13 pm #

    Where’s “Dr.” Polarik when you need him? Or, better yet, get “Butterdezillion” on the case. She seems to have filled the loony void over there at Free Republic.

    Butterdezillion, if you’re reading this, get some rest, dear.

  126. avatar
    Reality Check October 20, 2010 at 9:17 pm #

    I called the Hawaii Department of Vital Statistics and the office of Alvin T. Onaka, the Registrar for the State of Hawaii, and they said they WILL NOT supply the “long form” birth certificates just as Janice Okubo stated. The computer generated certificate is absolutely all that they will supply. Someone is not truthful and I have an idea who that might be.

  127. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 20, 2010 at 9:23 pm #

    Reality Check: I called the Hawaii Department of Vital Statistics and the office of Alvin T. Onaka, the Registrar for the State of Hawaii, and they said they WILL NOT supply the “long form” birth certificates just as Janice Okubo stated. The computer generated certificate is absolutely all that they will supply. Someone is not truthful and I have an idea who that might be.

    Thank you, RC. That’s exactly what they say on their website, and it’s what these nutjobs should have been told the minute this fraudulent certificate surfaced. One cannot possess something that does not exist and cannot be had. Engaging in all the crapola that comes with trying to prove they’re lying goes nowhere. Now we have another red herring offered by this liar, and they will continue to make them up ad infinitum until people just say, “the hell with it.” And what these nutjobs are left with is the claim that no one has been able to disprove every last one of their red herrings.

  128. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross October 20, 2010 at 9:28 pm #

    gorefan:
    She is now saying that the reason there is no current date on her “new” BC is that Hawaii sent her an original document and you cannot put a current date on it.Also that the date on the receipt is proof that they were printed at the same time!I’m not kidding, she actually said that.And as ludicrous as that sounds, the freepers bought it.http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2606951/posts?q=1&;page=1301post number 1348

    That is ridiculous when I got my COLB from California it was like a scan of the original information printed on security paper and had the seal with the date it was reissued on it. She’s lying. I love the part where she claims the receipt proves it. The receipt proves nothing other than she ordered a record from the department but there’s no proof that she got both items at the same time. The Exif information speaks to her lie

  129. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross October 20, 2010 at 9:29 pm #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP:
    Thank you, RC. That’s exactly what they say on their website, and it’s what these nutjobs should have been told the minute this fraudulent certificate surfaced. One cannot possess something that does not exist and cannot be had. Engaging in all the crapola that comes with trying to prove they’re lying goes nowhere. Now we have another red herring offered by this liar, and they will continue to make them up ad infinitum until people just say, “the hell with it.” And what these nutjobs are left with is the claim that no one has been able to disprove every last one of their red herrings.

    Any chance we could forward the link to the DOH and have them investigate?

  130. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 20, 2010 at 9:50 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross:
    Any chance we could forward the link to the DOH and have them investigate?

    I was thinking of that myself, Bob. These idiots need to be exposed for the frauds they are. No one ever does anything about it when they make these fraudulent claims, they get away with it, and then they just do it more because they know they can get away with it; it’s gone on too long.

  131. avatar
    gorefan October 20, 2010 at 9:55 pm #

    nbc: They could have been on the original form, which is laser printed on top of the security paper, typically.

    Possibly, but the same marks show up in the same boxes on the Janna 1971 BC which according to the date stamp was issues in 1979.

  132. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 20, 2010 at 10:00 pm #

    As far as I am concerned, they should hunt down anyone who made the claim that the certificate President Obama posted on the internet was fake, seize their “evidence,” and compare it to what was posted on the internet. If they altered the certificate so they could claim it was fake, prosecute them for fraud. World Nutjob Daily found that the certificate that was posted on the internet was “authentic” and that those who had claimed it was fake altered it in some fashion. If World Nutjob Daily can do that, why can’t the DoJ/FBI?

  133. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 20, 2010 at 10:06 pm #

    I can guarantee you that if someone came up a letter signed by George W. Bush admitting involvement in the slaughter of 3000 Americans on September 11, 2001, those involved in the forging of President’ Obama’s documents would want that person arrested and shot for treason without a trial

  134. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 20, 2010 at 10:36 pm #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP: If she had been investigated and prosecuted for the lies she was telling, there would not have been so many copycats and nutjobs on blogs repeating the lie for two years.

    Well, telling lies on the Internet is not a crime. It would be a crime, I suppose, if they solicited funds based on the lies, it might be fraud, but a victim of the fraud would have to be the one to complain. The feds don’t go after penny-ante fraud anyway.

  135. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 20, 2010 at 10:46 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Well, telling lies on the Internet is not a crime. It would be a crime, I suppose, if they solicited funds based on the lies, it might be fraud, but a victim of the fraud would have to be the one to complain. The feds don’t go after penny-ante fraud anyway.

    I know, Doc. The president would have to be the one to do something about it since he is the target of the fraud, and he has not done anything on this issue. I know that slander wouldn’t be an option either since he would have had to suffer some financial loss for a case like that to go forward. I’m not an attorney, so I don’t know what could be accomplished in this area, but I would like to see the DoJ do something rather than just allowing these frauds and liars to propagate their propaganda I’m sure that all the talent they have in the agency could come up with something. I believe that when it gets to people threatening the president’s life because of these lies, it’s a matter of national security, and something needs to be done.

  136. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross October 20, 2010 at 10:47 pm #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP:
    I know, Doc. The president would have to be the one to do something about it since he is the target of the fraud, and he has not done anything on this issue. I know that slander wouldn’t be an option either since he would have had to suffer some financial loss for a case like that to go forward. I’m not an attorney, so I don’t know what could be accomplished in this area, but I would like to see the DoJ do something rather than just allowing these frauds and liars to propagate their propaganda I’m sure that all the talent they have in the agency could come up with something. I believe that when it gets to people threatening the president’s life because of these lies, it’s a matter of national security, and something needs to be done.

    Not necessarily if she’s faking her own long form certificate she is creating a fraudulent document especially if she’s trying to pass it off as coming from DOH

  137. avatar
    jamese777 October 20, 2010 at 10:47 pm #

    Adam: Freeper Pissant claims he received a long-form, but he says it was a hasstle and involved lots of phone calls and pestering of the relevant officials. Perhaps you should Freepmail him about your bet.

    Yes, Pissant and I had conversations about Obama’s eligibility in the past but he or she seems to have disappeared from threads on this issue. The bet was open to anyone and Pissant did not choose to enter the contest.
    My original point was that if Obama or anyone else born in Hawai’i could still obtain a certified copy of a long form from the state, why weren’t there literally HUNDREDS of them posted all over the web to embarrass Obama and prove him wrong?
    Two possible and dubious copies of long forms does not a convincing argument make.

  138. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 20, 2010 at 10:50 pm #

    It’s obvious what the lunatic fringe is trying to do in portraying him as an illegal alien, a demon, and the Angel of Death – they’re trying to reach some loosely-wrapped nutjob who may put all this together and assassinate the president. Of course, they’re all lies, but when do we say that enough is enough? After he’s dead?

  139. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 20, 2010 at 10:51 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross:
    Not necessarily if she’s faking her own long form certificate she is creating a fraudulent document especially if she’s trying to pass it off as coming from DOH

    That’s how I look at it too, Bob

  140. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 20, 2010 at 10:54 pm #

    jamese777: Do you know the name of George W, Bush’s birth doctor?

    Dr. Margaret Tyler.

  141. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 20, 2010 at 10:58 pm #

    Bovril: As far as I can ascertain from the video (dated July of this year) there is confusion on the part of both the woman and the clerk as to whether she is ordering a BC (a COLB) or a HHL BC (a “Longer Form”).

    There is no HHL BC as far as I have seen. There is a Certificate of Hawaiian Birth, but that is a form of delayed birth certificate for people registered under a program discontinued years ago.

  142. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 20, 2010 at 11:00 pm #

    Dave: Dr C – I’m not clear what you mean by “the State would be hard pressed stick to such a policy given current law.”It seems to me that if HI still has the microfilm of the original birth certificates, then a subpoena could get it. Or if HI has something like FOIA, it could conceivably be obtained that way. But I thought the statement was the HI just didn’t have an administrative procedure for routinely handing out photocopies of the original birth certificate — what current law makes this position untenable?

    §338-13 Certified copies. (a) Subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18, the department of health shall, upon request, furnish to any applicant a certified copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof.

  143. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 20, 2010 at 11:16 pm #

    I’ve done about everything I know to do. I emailed DoJ and expressed my concerns to them about this. Last week, I emailed “60 Minutes” from their website and suggested that they interview Fukino just so that Hawaii go on the national record to debunk these lies. It’s very frustrating to have to listen to this propaganda day in and day out and not be able to do anything about it.

  144. avatar
    jamese777 October 20, 2010 at 11:18 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Dr. Margaret Tyler.

    Not YOU, silly rabbit, of COURSE you know it…you’re a DOCTOR! ;-)
    I was talking to “anonymous.”

  145. avatar
    Ouch! October 20, 2010 at 11:46 pm #

    Obama and the Hawaii DOH will not do anything about the many claims being leveled against them because they are all complicit in the fraud. The only people that can’t grasp that are you half dozen obamatools.

    When will you finally get it, when the impostor is sitting in a cell awaiting his capital punishment?

  146. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 20, 2010 at 11:54 pm #

    :-“

  147. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 20, 2010 at 11:54 pm #

    :”

  148. avatar
    gorefan October 20, 2010 at 11:57 pm #

    Ouch!: When will you finally get it, when the impostor is sitting in a cell awaiting his capital punishment?

    It is pretty much guaranteed that you will be in jail years before the President ever is. LAYNWY

  149. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 21, 2010 at 12:03 am #

    =>

  150. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 21, 2010 at 12:05 am #

    *whistles*

  151. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 21, 2010 at 12:11 am #

    Last I checked, President Obama was sitting in the Oval Office

  152. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 21, 2010 at 12:23 am #

    Birfoons want it two ways. If he doesn’t do anything, they say he’s not doing anything because he’s hiding something, and if he does do something, they say he’s doing something because he’s hiding something. They’re just that sick.

  153. avatar
    richCares October 21, 2010 at 1:00 am #

    Obama and the Hawaii DOH will not do anything about the many claims being leveled against them because they are all complicit in the fraud
    .
    Rant on dear crazy one, give us more laughs!

  154. avatar
    jamese777 October 21, 2010 at 1:33 am #

    Ouch!: Obama and the Hawaii DOH will not do anything about the many claims being leveled against them because they are all complicit in the fraud. The only people that can’t grasp that are you half dozen obamatools. When will you finally get it, when the impostor is sitting in a cell awaiting his capital punishment?

    Why do you think a Republican administration in Hawai’i is assisting Obama to the degree that they are?

  155. avatar
    Kupuna October 21, 2010 at 2:08 am #

    GeorgetownJD: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!“Red Steel” and his fellow FReepers are not happy about the scrutiny that [Dannae’s] COLB is drawing here at Doc’s. Red has stooped so low as to create FReep accounts with our screen names in order to get them zotted:Kapuna a Zot

    You’d think that, if he’s going to pretend he’s me, he might actually spell my name right? I never have & never will be creating a FReeper account.

  156. avatar
    Kupuna October 21, 2010 at 2:12 am #

    jamese777: Why do you think a Republican administration in Hawai’i is assisting Obama to the degree that they are?

    I can’t wait to see the Birther hysteria when Neil Abercrombie, who actually knew the President’s parents, becomes the Governor of Hawaii. More popcorn please…

  157. avatar
    Daniel October 21, 2010 at 2:35 am #

    Ouch!: The only people that can’t grasp that are you half dozen obamatools.

    You’re very much confused about who the minority fringe element is here bud.

  158. avatar
    DancingRabbit October 21, 2010 at 3:25 am #

    jamese777 Thanks for the $200 donation today to Free Republic.

  159. avatar
    GeorgetownJD October 21, 2010 at 5:40 am #

    jamese777:
    Yes, Pissant and I had conversations about Obama’s eligibility in the past but he or she seems to have disappeared from threads on this issue. The bet was open to anyone and Pissant did not choose to enter the contest.
    My original point was that if Obama or anyone else born in Hawai’i could still obtain a certified copy of a long form from the state, why weren’t there literally HUNDREDS of them posted all over the web to embarrass Obama and prove him wrong?
    Two possible and dubious copies of long forms does not a convincing argument make.

    And yet you gave in, James, notwithstanding the unambiguous terms of the bet that required an issue date on the document. The FReepers are trumpeting this victory.

  160. avatar
    Black Lion October 21, 2010 at 8:53 am #

    GeorgetownJD: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!“Red Steel” and his fellow FReepers are not happy about the scrutiny that [Dannae’s] COLB is drawing here at Doc’s. Red has stooped so low as to create FReep accounts with our screen names in order to get them zotted:Kapuna a Zothttp://www.freerepublic.com/~Kupuna/gorefan a Zothttp://www.freerepublic.com/~gorefan/James M a Zothttp://www.freerepublic.com/~JamesM/Hawaiiborn a Zothttp://www.freerepublic.com/~Hawaiiborn/John Patlin a Zothttp://www.freerepublic.com/~JohnPatlin/Bovril a Zothttp://www.freerepublic.com/~Bovril/Black Lion a Zothttp://www.freerepublic.com/~BlackLion/GeorgetownJD a Zothttp://www.freerepublic.com/~GeorgetownJD/mrnopants a Zothttp://www.freerepublic.com/~mrnopants/An the head Rat Dr. Conspiracy is a Zothttp://www.freerepublic.com/~drconspiracy/I’ve never registered at FReep cause I don’t go slumming at RWNJ sites that require me to register. Never at FReep, never at GretaWire, etc. That leads to only one conclusion: Red registered using my screen name. How desperate that he must resort to fraud.

    GeorgetownJD, I never registered over there either, so he did use our names to “ban” us from that cesspool of ignorance….I find it hilarous the depths that the birthers will stoop to in order to continue their jihad against the President and perpetuate their ridiculous debunked lies….

  161. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) October 21, 2010 at 8:56 am #

    GeorgetownJD: And yet you gave in, James, notwithstanding the unambiguous terms of the bet that required an issue date on the document. The FReepers are trumpeting this victory.

    Really James gave in? She didn’t even fulfill the terms of the bet. The exif information shows the document was created at a totally different time than she said. There’s no seal, no date issued. This is not a valid document.

  162. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) October 21, 2010 at 8:59 am #

    GeorgetownJD: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!“Red Steel” and his fellow FReepers are not happy about the scrutiny that [Dannae’s] COLB is drawing here at Doc’s. Red has stooped so low as to create FReep accounts with our screen names in order to get them zotted:Kapuna a Zothttp://www.freerepublic.com/~Kupuna/gorefan a Zothttp://www.freerepublic.com/~gorefan/James M a Zothttp://www.freerepublic.com/~JamesM/Hawaiiborn a Zothttp://www.freerepublic.com/~Hawaiiborn/John Patlin a Zothttp://www.freerepublic.com/~JohnPatlin/Bovril a Zothttp://www.freerepublic.com/~Bovril/Black Lion a Zothttp://www.freerepublic.com/~BlackLion/GeorgetownJD a Zothttp://www.freerepublic.com/~GeorgetownJD/mrnopants a Zothttp://www.freerepublic.com/~mrnopants/An the head Rat Dr. Conspiracy is a Zothttp://www.freerepublic.com/~drconspiracy/I’ve never registered at FReep cause I don’t go slumming at RWNJ sites that require me to register. Never at FReep, never at GretaWire, etc. That leads to only one conclusion: Red registered using my screen name. How desperate that he must resort to fraud.

    I actually did create an account there. It lasted a whole three hours. I called someone out from facebook who ran to freeperville because he got caught with his pants down making a claim that Obama hired 6 law firms to represent him during this “eligibility issue” I asked him to name them. He switched subjects and deleted my posts off his facebook luckily I copied the conversation. He then tried to lie about the conversation. I made him look foolish they banned me and deleted 2 of my posts.

  163. avatar
    Black Lion October 21, 2010 at 9:19 am #

    it seems like there are many Freepers that like to lurk over here and find out what is going on and designate who are the most conspicous posters…Interesting…I wonder if the Koch brothers are funding them as an anti-Obama crusade….

    The tears are flowing at the OBOT site CONspiracy regarding the long form posting. Their excuses and distortions are mounting.
    They want to see a raised seal…lol..the form must be photo shopped..
    There is panic over there..lol

    1,228 posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 12:45:10 AM by bushpilot1

    OMG .. ROFL!
    They’ve gone over the edge over there .. must
    see the implosion.
    OMG. lmao. And THESE people are supposed to be defending “the real deal” from Obama….. roflmao
    Now that right there is so full of rich irony…!!
    That being said…. All I can think of is I hope Polarik finds his karma. This is why he smeared me. Lol he knows everything I posted was real. He falsely accused me of forgery… So that this would happen… I get it now. Question is why? It was all the real deal. Shoot, I could scan and post the envelop it came in, and they will still call it fake lmao.

    1,239 posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 2:04:44 AM by Danae

  164. avatar
    Black Lion October 21, 2010 at 9:20 am #

    More insanity…

    Have you seen how dumb these people are on Dr Conspiracy’s website about the lady who ordered the Hawaiian Birth Certificate.
    The Hawaiian birth certificate requester in the video has two choices either the short form Certificate of Live Birth (COLB) OR the long form birth certificate.

    A = short form COLB
    B = long form birth certificate
    It is is either ‘A’ or ‘B’ In a simple Boolean logic expression – if not A then B. (if p then q)

    The Transcript:
    “Alright, (crackling) Do you……how long does it take? Is there an expedited fee? Or…… Cause I can come back…I can come over and pick it up in person too. It’s just (inaudible) …it’s just right across the street (inaudible) cause it turns out…all I,… I thought I had it, but all I have is that Certificate of Live Birth, it’s not the same. You said it’s ten dollars? Yes sir. ”

    So if the COLB (A) does not have the information she needs, it has to be the long form birth certificate (B) she needs.
    It so simple to figure out, but After-Birthers at Dr. CON’s website can’t figure it out.

    Note: I see 3 former FR zots on the thread. The website is a Who’s Who of FR zots.

    1,226 posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 12:41:32 AM by Red Steel

  165. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) October 21, 2010 at 9:34 am #

    Black Lion: it seems like there are many Freepers that like to lurk over here and find out what is going on and designate who are the most conspicous posters…Interesting…I wonder if the Koch brothers are funding them as an anti-Obama crusade….The tears are flowing at the OBOT site CONspiracy regarding the long form posting. Their excuses and distortions are mounting.They want to see a raised seal…lol..the form must be photo shopped..There is panic over there..lol1,228 posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 12:45:10 AM by bushpilot1 OMG .. ROFL!They’ve gone over the edge over there .. mustsee the implosion.OMG. lmao. And THESE people are supposed to be defending “the real deal” from Obama….. roflmaoNow that right there is so full of rich irony…!!That being said…. All I can think of is I hope Polarik finds his karma. This is why he smeared me. Lol he knows everything I posted was real. He falsely accused me of forgery… So that this would happen… I get it now. Question is why? It was all the real deal. Shoot, I could scan and post the envelop it came in, and they will still call it fake lmao.1,239 posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 2:04:44 AM by Danae

    Danae still doesn’t understand that she could post any envelope she received from anywhere and claim the document came from it but that wouldn’t necessarily prove its true. Once again the Exif data in the document she posted doesn’t match the time frame and was made much earlier. I find it hillarious that the same complaints the birthers originally had about Obama’s birth certificate (even though you could see the seal faintly because of the poor scan) they now ignore when it comes to Danae

  166. avatar
    Reality Check October 21, 2010 at 9:52 am #

    The scan of the envelope would prove nothing. It would be the envelope in which the computer generated COLB that she ordered and actually received was mailed. Unlike Birthers we were not born yesterday. Until danae comes up with something more concrete than reposting the same BC that she already had posted in her Photobucket account and a receipt showing she ordered “something” (a COLB from 2010) she has nothing.

  167. avatar
    John Patlin October 21, 2010 at 10:39 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
    Danae still doesn’t understand that she could post any envelope she received from anywhere and claim the document came from it

    Danae understands that perfectly. But she knows other Freepers won’t.

  168. avatar
    AnotherBird October 21, 2010 at 11:34 am #

    Black Lion: More insanity…Have you seen how dumb these people are on Dr Conspiracy’s website about the lady who ordered the Hawaiian Birth Certificate.
    The Hawaiian birth certificate requester in the video has two choices either the short form Certificate of Live Birth (COLB) OR the long form birth certificate.
    A = short form COLB
    B = long form birth certificate
    It is is either A’ or B’ In a simple Boolean logic expression – if not A then B. (if p then q)
    The Transcript:
    “Alright, (crackling) Do you……how long does it take? Is there an expedited fee? Or…… Cause I can come back…I can come over and pick it up in person too. It’s just (inaudible) …it’s just right across the street (inaudible) cause it turns out…all I,… I thought I had it, but all I have is that Certificate of Live Birth, it’s not the same. You said it’s ten dollars? Yes sir. ”
    So if the COLB (A) does not have the information she needs, it has to be the long form birth certificate (B) she needs.
    It so simple to figure out, but After-Birthers at Dr. CON’s website can’t figure it out.
    Note: I see 3 former FR zots on the thread. The website is a Who’s Who of FR zots.
    1,226 posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 12:41:32 AM by Red Steel

    Red Steel and other birthers just don’t understand; it is not possible to determine a conversation unless both sides are hear.

    They have been spending over two years trying to dismiss a document that clearly states that it is proof of birth, but want a one-sided conversation as proof of something.

    The most recent document that they have been passing around clearly states “Certificate of Live Birth” and not “Hawaiian Birth Certificate.”

    Even if the woman claims that “it is not the same” as referring to a specific “Hawaiian Birth Certificate” that doesn’t mean the clerk disagreed with her.

    These “investigative reporters” just haven’t been paying much attempt to their TV crime drama’s.

  169. avatar
    AnotherBird October 21, 2010 at 12:01 pm #

    !: “When will you finally get it, when the impostor is sitting in a cell awaiting his capital punishment?”

    ??? … Aw … must be just a flamer. ….

    No matter what the transaction was about it doesn’t change anything not related to the scope of the transaction. It seems that some just don’t get it, but that isn’t the reason I quoted the above comment.

  170. avatar
    jamese777 October 21, 2010 at 12:18 pm #

    GeorgetownJD: And yet you gave in, James, notwithstanding the unambiguous terms of the bet that required an issue date on the document. The FReepers are trumpeting this victory.

    Nah, the birther-Freepers really wanted to claim a victory by having me welch on the bet. I let them know that I was not accepting Danae;s “certificate” as authentic and if and when I receive written confirmation from Dr. Alvin T. Onaka that the long form is NOT available, I will be posting that information on FreeRepublic.

  171. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) October 21, 2010 at 12:20 pm #

    jamese777: Nah, the birther-Freepers really wanted to claim a victory by having me welch on the bet. I let them know that I was not accepting Danae;s “certificate” as authentic and if and when I receive written confirmation from Dr. Alvin T. Onaka that the long form is NOT available, I will be posting that information on FreeRepublic.

    But she didn’t fulfill the terms of the bet. That being an authentic document with the seal which would have had the date issued on it.

  172. avatar
    NBC October 21, 2010 at 1:08 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
    But she didn’t fulfill the terms of the bet.That being an authentic document with the seal which would have had the date issued on it.

    We know that she took a picture with an iPhone of the older document which was posted. So all she needs to do is cover some information and then take a picture. But that would perhaps show the tell tale signs…

    No wonder she rejects any such thing. As such, we cannot determine if the document she claims she received is the one she posted as I can, within 10 minutes or so, fabricate a document that looks just like the last one she posted, starting from the long form that was posted in November 2009.

    Just saying…

    Combine that with the clear statements of the DOH of Hawaii and Danae needs to provide a little more information.
    She is probably aware that the DOH cannot comment on documents she may have requested but they may be able to comment on the document she posted, IF that is not the document.

    Combine that with monetary gains and there may be some interesting times… Who knows…

  173. avatar
    sponson October 21, 2010 at 2:21 pm #

    All Danae is interested in doing is hoodwinking a sufficient percentage of fellow freepers. Meanwhile, redsteel bans anyone with usernames that are on this thread from posting over there, in order to seal the deal. The definition of a highly policed echo chamber. It’s a good thing Dr. C does not post our IPs publicly as we post here, or the freeper administrators would probably be using that information as well to deny anyone from this thread the ability to post over there for a day or so, giving them more than enough time at the other site to declare a Danae “victory.” Curiously, despite their “win” it won’t result in a single news story or headline anywhere…..

  174. avatar
    Gary Miller October 21, 2010 at 2:28 pm #

    jamese777: Nah, the birther-Freepers really wanted to claim a victory by having me welch on the bet. I let them know that I was not accepting Danae;s “certificate” as authentic and if and when I receive written confirmation from Dr. Alvin T. Onaka that the long form is NOT available, I will be posting that information on FreeRepublic.

    You take a lot of abuse over there, my friend. But it is very entertaining reading. Your battles with edge are particulary amusing. I feel a bit sorry for butterdezillion though. She claims to be a woman of faith, and disregards the Ten Commandments on a daily basis. But she doesn’t seem to be intentionally lying, unlike Red Steel and Danae. I enjoy your posts, Loren’s, non-sequiturs, curiousity, mlo, anyone who tries to talk sense over there. Bless your patience.

  175. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) October 21, 2010 at 3:06 pm #

    sponson: All Danae is interested in doing is hoodwinking a sufficient percentage of fellow freepers. Meanwhile, redsteel bans anyone with usernames that are on this thread from posting over there, in order to seal the deal. The definition of a highly policed echo chamber. It’s a good thing Dr. C does not post our IPs publicly as we post here, or the freeper administrators would probably be using that information as well to deny anyone from this thread the ability to post over there for a day or so, giving them more than enough time at the other site to declare a Danae “victory.” Curiously, despite their “win” it won’t result in a single news story or headline anywhere…..

    Yeah I think he banned me within my first post. The truth hurts freepers

  176. avatar
    Mary Adams October 21, 2010 at 4:51 pm #

    The “a”s are also in the fields for the parents’ birth places on the Nordyke twins’ BCs and Alan’s BC.

    http://constitutionallyspeaking.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/m1139416728.gif?w=800&h=515

    http://www.greatdreams.com/2008/hawaii-birth-certificate-1963.jpg

    It’s gotta be a Hawaii DOH internal code.

    Danae tried to erase them?

  177. avatar
    Adam October 21, 2010 at 5:26 pm #

    sponson: redsteel bans anyone with usernames that are on this thread from posting over there, in order to seal the deal. The definition of a highly policed echo chamber.

    I don’t know what Red Steel is doing, but to be fair to FR, there are lots of anti-birthers who post on the birther threads. Most of us are long-time Freepers and even longer-time conservtive activisits who are disgusted by the paranoid, populist style that has infected much of the conservative movement today.

  178. avatar
    Bovril October 21, 2010 at 5:42 pm #

    OK,

    a. Who in the name of Beelzebub left testicle is “Red Steel”, Admin, Owner, Generic Divvie..?

    b. Did he “ban” the League of Evil or did he go and make up some whiney story to an Admin

    c. Who the hell is an Admin over there and how does one contact them.

    This one does actually peeve me……

  179. avatar
    DancingRabbit October 21, 2010 at 7:39 pm #

    https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/donors

    # jamese777

    Thanks again for paying your losing bet to Danae.

  180. avatar
    Mary Adams October 21, 2010 at 8:34 pm #

    jamese777:

    Please notify that idiot Red Steel that despite the fact Danae didn’t meet the conditions of the bet, you paid up.

    She has posted at least 4 times as if you haven’t paid.

  181. avatar
    Majority Will October 21, 2010 at 9:52 pm #

    Bovril: OK,a.Who in the name of Beelzebub left testicle is “Red Steel”, Admin, Owner, Generic Divvie..?b. Did he “ban”the League of Evil or did he go and make up some whiney story to an Adminc.Who the hell is an Admin over there and how does one contact them.This one does actually peeve me……

    A typical, deranged birther coward with eyes shut tight and fingers jammed in both ears while screeching, “LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA.
    I CAN’T HEAR YOU, I CAN’T HEAR YOU, I CAN’T HEAR YOU.”

  182. avatar
    Reality Check October 22, 2010 at 10:47 am #

    One interesting thing about the photo danae posted showing all three birth certificates is that none of them is readily identifiable as a valid birth certificate (I can’t see the raised seal on the COLB on the right nor anything on the others) but the one that is most likely to be a certified document is, you guessed it, the COLB on the right. I wonder how many birthers could grasp that concept?

  183. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) October 22, 2010 at 11:00 am #

    Reality Check: One interesting thing about the photo danae posted showing all three birth certificates is that none of them is readily identifiable as a valid birth certificate (I can’t see the raised seal on the COLB on the right nor anything on the others) but the one that is most likely to be a certified document is, you guessed it, the COLB on the right. I wonder how many birthers could grasp that concept?

    That’s the funny thing about it. The COLB she received looks exactly like Obama’s does. Can’t really tell if it has a raised seal as its mostly covered

  184. avatar
    jamese777 October 22, 2010 at 11:28 am #

    DancingRabbit: https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/donors# jamese777Thanks again for paying your losing bet to Danae.

    The bet was declared over and settled months before Danae posted her “certificate.”
    As I already said here, the person that I made the bet with, Rolling_Stone had posted that he would pay a $100 donation but he never did.
    I made a donation to FreeRepublic but until I get INDEPENDENT and personal confirmation that Danae’s scanned image was recently issued by the Hawaii Department of Health, I do not consider it to be in response to the bet that I had with Rolling_Stone.
    You, however are free to see these events any way that you choose. I don’t begrudge birthers an opportunity to have one little moral victory since you have lost in every court of law that this issue has been adjudicated in, 72 different times now.

  185. avatar
    Mary Adams October 22, 2010 at 1:39 pm #

    To: jamese777

    Thanks for paying the bet. Hope this event gets you the Zot at the drama queen Drconspires site.

    We can protect you. Join us.

    1,584 posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 7:04:20 PM by bushpilot1

  186. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 22, 2010 at 3:46 pm #

    If you really want to make a bet with birfoons, this is what you bet them:

    I bet that Barack Obama will serve out every last minute of every term he’s elected to and will never be removed from office because of the lies and propaganda regarding his being born anywhere other than Hawaii.

    I have tried for at least a year or more for any birfoon to bet me, but all they do is make excuses why they won’t bet. Seems that they don’t even have the courage of their own convictions.

  187. avatar
    Majority Will October 22, 2010 at 4:09 pm #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP: If you really want to make a bet with birfoons, this is what you bet them:I bet that Barack Obama will serve out every last minute of every term he’s elected to and will never be removed from office because of the lies and propaganda regarding his being born anywhere other than Hawaii.I have tried for at least a year or more for any birfoon to bet me, but all they do is make excuses why they won’t bet. Seems that they don’t even have the courage of their own convictions.

    Brilliant!

    Permission please, to re-use in every dank, dark birfer hole I can find?

  188. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 22, 2010 at 4:19 pm #

    Absolutely, Will.

  189. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 22, 2010 at 4:21 pm #

    However, you will most likely have to wait until 2017 to collect on the bet.

  190. avatar
    Majority Will October 22, 2010 at 4:30 pm #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP: However, you will most likely have to wait until 2017 to collect on the bet.

    I’ll charge interest. :-)

  191. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 22, 2010 at 4:33 pm #

    lmao!

  192. avatar
    DancingRabbit October 23, 2010 at 7:43 am #

    “It was never doubted”

    Chief Justice Morrison Waite, quoted in Wong Kim Ark said:

    “…it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

    It was never doubted…a long form birth certificate…could not be obtained…until Danae ordered hers..

    It was never doubted those that defend Obama in his illegal Presidency can say they have a right to keep their shirts on their back…

    This site reeks of misprision…

  193. avatar
    richCares October 23, 2010 at 8:23 am #

    It was never doubted…a long form birth certificate…could not be obtained…until Danae ordered hers..
    .
    so if Obama supplied one that looked like what danae got you would accept it? That this is a “long form”
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, Birthers are really funny!

  194. avatar
    Northland10 October 23, 2010 at 9:04 am #

    So Dancing Rabbit, if the President produced a long form that shows the information on his COLB is consistent with the long form, would you admit that he is now eligible?

  195. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross October 23, 2010 at 9:10 am #

    DancingRabbit: “It was never doubted”Chief Justice Morrison Waite, quoted in Wong Kim Ark said:“…it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”It was never doubted…a long form birth certificate…could not be obtained…until Danae ordered hers..It was never doubted those that defend Obama in his illegal Presidency can say they have a right to keep their shirts on their back…This site reeks of misprision…

    Danae did not produce a long form birth certificate. It is not an official copy and could not be used in court as evidence. She could not get a passport with it. You notice the other thing she got though? Her COLB which looks exactly like Obama’s. The quote by Morrison was not the final decision in Wong Kim Ark. As you read court cases you will notice that justices often refer to other court decisions. In this case they were referring to Minor V Happersett which didn’t actually fully address natural born citizenship as the case wasn’t about it. You’ll also notice in Minor V Happersett that they mention there are only two types of citizens those that are natural born and those that are naturalized. Since Obama couldn’t be naturalized because of his birth on US Soil he is therefore natural born. If you bothered to read through all of Wong Kim Ark and the appellate briefs from the lower court on which the case was based you will see that the Supreme Court upheld the lower court’s determination that Wong Kim Ark was Natural Born.

  196. avatar
    Northland10 October 23, 2010 at 9:18 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross: As you read court cases…

    That seems a stretch..

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross: If you bothered to read…

    Now that sounds normal…

    I would have a much easier time listening to arguments from those like Dancing Rabbit if they actual bothered to do any research/homework/reading on the subject. Instead, all we get is fact and context free quotes lifted off another birther site. If they really cared about the Constitution and America, I would think they would actually put in an effort to research the issue. Instead, we get those who do not care about the Constitution but only hate the President.

  197. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross October 23, 2010 at 9:27 am #

    Northland10:
    That seems a stretch..
    Now that sounds normal…I would have a much easier time listening to arguments from those like Dancing Rabbit if they actual bothered to do any research/homework/reading on the subject.Instead, all we get is fact and context free quotes lifted off another birther site.If they really cared about the Constitution and America, I would think they would actually put in an effort to research the issue.Instead, we get those who do not care about the Constitution but only hate the President.

    Why would they bother doing research when its much easier to parrot donofio, apuzzo and other birther nutjobs

  198. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 23, 2010 at 11:25 am #

    DancingRabbit: “It was never doubted”

    Chief Justice Morrison Waite, quoted in Wong Kim Ark said:

    “…it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

    It was never doubted…a long form birth certificate…could not be obtained…until Danae ordered hers..

    It was never doubted those that defend Obama in his illegal Presidency can say they have a right to keep their shirts on their back…

    This site reeks of misprision…

    And your post reeks of taking things out of context.

    I’ve already said what needs to be said about Minor v. Happersett here:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/03/minor-v-happersett-88-u-s-162-1874/

    Be warned: there is no one who is going to censor rebuttals to your nonsense here like you have at the Free Republic.

  199. avatar
    misha October 23, 2010 at 11:33 am #

    DancingRabbit: It was never doubted…a long form birth certificate…could not be obtained…until Danae ordered hers..

    I found a Kenya BC (Obama’s?) that’s right here and may help you.

  200. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 23, 2010 at 12:46 pm #

    DancingRabbit: Chief Justice Morrison Waite, quoted in Wong Kim Ark said:

    “…it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

    However, the context of this citation is over who is and who is not born a citizen, not distinguishing between citizens and natural born citizens. Waite goes on to say that there is some doubt about the citizenship of those born of alien parents and that he was not going to address that question (Justice Gray in Wong did, deciding that they were citizens).

    Perhaps you could explain a question of precedent and how it might to apply to a hypothetical argument about Barack Obama’s legitimacy as president.

    An attorney commented to me once that US Attorney Generals’ Opinions were “precedents” but that they were not binding on the courts.

    I think that it is fair to say, and I think you would concede, that no constitution provision, no law, and no federal court decision comes right out and says that a president of the United States must be born in the United States and be born of two US citizens. If this were the case Barack Obama would not be president today.

    While there is no constitutional provision, law or court decision defining “natural born citizen”, there is an Attorney General Opinion that does. Here I refer to Attorney General Bates, Opinion on Citizenship (1862). The opinion reads:

    The Constitution itself does not make the citizens, (it is. in fact,made by them.) It only intends and recognizes such of them as are natural—home-born—and provides for the naturalization of such of them as were alien—foreign-born—making the latter, as far as nature will allow, like the former. …

    And our Constitution, in speaking of natural born citizens, uses no affirmative language to make them such, but only recognizes and reaffirms the universal principle, common to all nations, and as old as political society, that the people born in a country do constitute the nation, and, as individuals, are natural members of the body politic.

    If this be a true principle, and I do not doubt it, it follows that every person born in the country is, at the moment of birth, prima facie a citizen; and he who would deny it must take upon himself the burden of proving some great disfranchisement strong enough to override the “natural born” right as recognized by the Constitution in terms the most simple and comprehensive …

    And so strongly was Congress impressed with the great legal fact that the child takes its political status in the nation where it is born, that it was found necessary to pass a law to prevent the alienage of children of our known fellow-citizens who happen to be born in foreign countries. The act of February 10, 1855, 10 Statutes, 604, provides that “persons,” (not white persons,) ” persons heretofore born, or hereafter to be born, out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States, shall be deemed and considered and are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States: Provided, however, That the rights of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers never resided in the United States.”

    Attorney General Edward Bates, Opinion of Attorney General Bates on Citizenship (1852).

    It seems to me that this unequivocal endorsement of natural born citizenship for the children born in the United States forms a precedent under which Barack Obama is a legitimate president of the United States.

    The more arrogant they are, the harder they fall.

  201. avatar
    AnotherBird October 23, 2010 at 4:10 pm #

    DancingRabbit: Chief Justice Morrison Waite, quoted in Wong Kim Ark said

    “…it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

    The quote that was presented actually was from a previous case of Minor v. Happersett. In the Wong Kim Ark ruling after the text quoted Minor v. Happersett case reads.

    Minor v. Happersett (1874), 21 Wall. 162, 166-168. The decision in that case was that a woman born of citizen parents within the United States was a citizen of the United States, although not entitled to vote, the right to the elective franchise not being essential to citizenship.

    This gives a more clear view of the purpose of the quote. However, the full text in the Minor v. Happersett is more interesting and gives a clearer reason why it was used.

    The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens. The words “all children” are certainly as comprehensive, when used in this connection, as “all persons,” and if females are included in the last they must be in the first. That they are included in the last is not denied. In fact the whole argument of the plaintiffs proceeds upon that idea.

    There are reasons why in our culture we find it important to quote text. One is that it always others to go to the original full text, and read the quote in the full context. This is so that we can determine the what was being discussed and the relevance to context that the quote was being used.

    The actual ruling from the Wong Kim Ark case was

    A child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicil and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States, by virtue of the first clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution,

    Taking both cases Wong Kim Ark is a natural born citizen, and so is Obama.

  202. avatar
    DancingRabbit October 23, 2010 at 8:10 pm #

    again you guys do not undestand.and are missing the point…there are numerous references..Obama is an illegal President.

    One of you stated Vattel is “obscure”..Franklin disagrees and the 1787 Congress..we know the 1787 Congress ordered the book…Why would they order an “obscure” book.

    Supreme Court Justices used it.

    Jefferson said..”we must look to Vattel”

    Adams stated he read it 3 times..

    Washington checked it out from the library and never returned the “obscure” book.

  203. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross October 23, 2010 at 8:16 pm #

    DancingRabbit: again you guys do not undestand.and are missing the point…there are numerous references..Obama is an illegal President.One of you stated Vattel is “obscure”..Franklin disagrees and the 1787 Congress..we know the 1787Congress ordered the book…Why would they order an “obscure” book.Supreme Court Justices used it.Jefferson said..”we must look to Vattel”Adams stated he read it 3 times..Washington checked it out from the library and never returned the “obscure” book.

    Repeating the same tripe without backing it up Rabbit makes you look pathetic. There are not numerous references in regards to citizenship. You do know that Benjamin Franklin was responsible for creating the first public library in the US right? He was creating a library he wanted random books in it. Where did Franklin say that the Law of Nations was a great book and we based our constitution on it. Where did Adams state we must look to vattel? Wouldn’t that lend credibility that Washington never actually got around to reading it as he never returned it? Where did they speak of it in reference to US law and not international law? You really need to do better research Rabbit

  204. avatar
    DancingRabbit October 23, 2010 at 8:18 pm #

    Northland10: So Dancing Rabbit, if the President produced a long form that shows the information on his COLB is consistent with the long form, would you admit that he is now eligible?

    Obama can never be a natural born citizen.unless his father was a US citizen…we the long form to see the citizenship of his father….

  205. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross October 23, 2010 at 8:35 pm #

    DancingRabbit:
    Obama can never be a natural born citizen.unless his father was a US citizen…we the long form to see the citizenship of his father….

    Moving those goal posts again. Like most birthers when you get made to look hypocritical and foolish you just make another unsubstantiated claim. Obama is a natural born citizen because he was born on US. The status of the parents does not matter unless they are diplomats. Wong Kim Ark upheld the appellate court decision that stated Wong Kim Ark was a natural born citizen. The law isn’t on your side.

  206. avatar
    Majority Will October 23, 2010 at 8:41 pm #

    DancingRabbit:
    Obama can never be a natural born citizen.unless his father was a US citizen…we the long form to see the citizenship of his father….

    Red Plastic or whatever . . .

    How far removed are you from reality?

  207. avatar
    AnotherBird October 23, 2010 at 8:46 pm #

    DancingRabbit: again you guys do not undestand.and are missing the point…there are numerous references..Obama is an illegal President.One of you stated Vattel is “obscure”..Franklin disagrees and the 1787 Congress..we know the 1787Congress ordered the book…Why would they order an “obscure” book.Supreme Court Justices used it.Jefferson said..”we must look to Vattel”Adams stated he read it 3 times..Washington checked it out from the library and never returned the “obscure” book.

    And all in all that was 1787 and this is 2010. Things have changed over time to include more people who were not previous citizens as citizens. A lot of history and supreme court rules have to be ignored to come the conclusion that you attempt to suggest.

  208. avatar
    misha October 23, 2010 at 8:49 pm #

    DancingRabbit: Obama can never be a natural born citizen.unless his father was a US citizen

    Normally, I don’t respond to drivel. Spiro Agnew’s father, Chester Arthur’s father and James Buchanan’s father were not US citizens when they were born.

    Also, when Wong Kim Ark was declared a natural born citizen, his parents had returned to China, where they lived out their lives and died. Ark returned to the States alone.

  209. avatar
    Rickey October 23, 2010 at 8:55 pm #

    DancingRabbit:
    Obama can never be a natural born citizen.unless his father was a US citizen…we the long form to see the citizenship of his father….

    Obama has always acknowledged that his father was not a U.S. citizen, and this fact was well-known to the 67.8 million Americans who voted for him. So what relevant information do you expect to find in his “long form” which you do not already know?

  210. avatar
    misha October 23, 2010 at 9:06 pm #

    DancingRabbit: Obama can never be a natural born citizen.unless his father was a US citizen

    None of this mental gymnastics went on until Leo Donofrio attempted to overturn the election, and came up with this nonsense.

    Donofrio is a second rate poker player, and third rate lawyer. And that obscure Swiss philosopher was never mentioned until now, either. Orly Taitz is a vile refusenik, like Avigdor Lieberman. They are both racists, in the true sense of the word – they believe they are intellectually superior to Arabs, by birth and biology. And they are Islamophobes.

    Taitz, Lieberman and their crowd are the corollary of Judenrein: they want Israel to be Arab free – and I’m not exaggerating.

  211. avatar
    jamese777 October 23, 2010 at 9:21 pm #

    DancingRabbit: Obama can never be a natural born citizen.unless his father was a US citizen…we the long form to see the citizenship of his father….

    Barack Obama wrote a book entitled “Dreams From My Father” in 1995. That book was about Barack Obama Senior, the father NOT being an American citizen. That was twelve years before Obama announced his candidacy for the presidency.

    If having two American citizen parents were required to be considered a natural born citizen, Chief Justice John Roberts would never have agreed to administer the Oath of Office to a ineligible person. Roberts is a scholar of the history of the Constitution.

    Additionally, at least one out of the 535 members of Congress would have objected to the certification of Obama’s Electoral College votes if he was ineligible. Vice President Cheney certified those votes WITHOUT OBJECTION.

  212. avatar
    Northland10 October 23, 2010 at 10:02 pm #

    DancingRabbit:
    Obama can never be a natural born citizen.unless his father was a US citizen…we the long form to see the citizenship of his father….

    Okay… now that I have moved away so not to be hit by the goal posts moving at the speed of silly..

    Dancing, since you need to see the “long form” to know see the citizenship of his father, maybe you might want to point out where that is on the long form. Since Danae was good enough to post one, you know it states the citizenship, right?

    Funny, I only see birthplace of the parents and not citizenship. Even the President’s COLB states the race of his father as “African” which may be a good indication, he was not born here. I guessed missed this little fact during the election. There were a few thousand news articles (at least) on this before the election.

  213. avatar
    richCares October 23, 2010 at 10:10 pm #

    “Obama can never be a natural born citizen.unless his father was a US citizen…we the long form to see the citizenship of his father….”
    .
    is DancingRabbit retarded, we all know his Father was not an American, don’t need no long form for that as it is widely known and acknowleged.
    .
    In Passing:
    When I attended University of Hawaii (1961/1964) I met an African exchange student who had a pregnant white wife. I remember him telling me he had to go to the hospital to visit his son, I don’t remeber his name but my wife insists it was Obama Sr.(his wife once baby sitted for my daughter) that was 49 years go and hard to remember.

  214. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 24, 2010 at 12:24 am #

    DancingRabbit: Obama can never be a natural born citizen.unless his father was a US citizen…we the long form to see the citizenship of his father….

    Do you know anything at all?

    Hawaiian long forms do not state the citizenship of the parents. It has birthplace, but not citizenship. And we know who Barack Obama’s father was from his published birth certificate, and his citizenship (Citizen of the UK and Colonies) is well known.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/sample-certificatelivebirth-hi-med2.jpg

  215. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 24, 2010 at 12:26 am #

    DancingRabbit: Washington checked it out from the library and never returned the “obscure” book.

    He must have misplaced it.

  216. avatar
    obsolete October 24, 2010 at 1:41 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    He must have misplaced it.

    Is it too late to impeach him?

  217. avatar
    Arthur October 24, 2010 at 10:06 am #

    obsolete:
    Is it too late to impeach him?

    That depends on what the meaning of the word “Is” is.

  218. avatar
    Rickey October 24, 2010 at 3:31 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    He must have misplaced it.

    Or he never got around to reading it.

  219. avatar
    gorefan October 24, 2010 at 4:08 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: He must have misplaced it.

    He didn’t check it out until after he became President. Hard to see how it could have impacted the writing of the Constitution.

  220. avatar
    gorefan October 24, 2010 at 4:24 pm #

    DancingRabbit: Adams stated he read it 3 times..

    President John Adams’ personal library is housed at the Boston Public Library. You can search it online. A search of his library shows no copies of Vattel’s Law of Nations in any language. But he did have two copies of Blackstone’s “Commentaries on the Laws of England.” Both of them contain annotations, in the margins, by Adams in his handwriting.

  221. avatar
    Sef October 24, 2010 at 5:29 pm #

    DancingRabbit: again you guys do not undestand.and are missing the point…there are numerous references..Obama is an illegal President.One of you stated Vattel is “obscure”..Franklin disagrees and the 1787 Congress..we know the 1787Congress ordered the book…Why would they order an “obscure” book.Supreme Court Justices used it.Jefferson said..”we must look to Vattel”Adams stated he read it 3 times..Washington checked it out from the library and never returned the “obscure” book.

    DR, you are the one who misses the point. Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that some of the founders actually read de Vattel’s thesis. The contents of our ACTUAL Constitution, not the one you birthers think exists, proves that any ideas of de Vattel’s were seen as those to be avoided, not emulated.

  222. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 24, 2010 at 7:55 pm #

    Sef: DR, you are the one who misses the point. Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that some of the founders actually read de Vattel’s thesis. The contents of our ACTUAL Constitution, not the one you birthers think exists, proves that any ideas of de Vattel’s were seen as those to be avoided, not emulated.

    I think it fair to say that in the area of international law, de Vattel had some influence. However, there’s nothing in the historical record (except a letter to the editor in a Charleston, SC newspaper) that suggest that anyone looked to de Vattel to define the acquisition of citizenship. On the other hand, de Vattel was cited as one source by the courts on the question of expatriation, since the Constitution is silent on this topic.

  223. avatar
    Northland10 October 24, 2010 at 10:30 pm #

    DancingRabbit: One of you stated Vattel is “obscure”..Franklin disagrees and the 1787 Congress..we know the 1787 Congress ordered the book…Why would they order an “obscure” book.

    Supreme Court Justices used it.

    Jefferson said..”we must look to Vattel”

    Adams stated he read it 3 times..

    Washington checked it out from the library and never returned the “obscure” book.

    Dancing is stating that owning or reading a book is akin to agreeing to everything in the book (or at least the point that proves Dancing’s). Apparently, I am a conservative, liberal, isolationist, internationalist, Marxist, Nazi, Morman-Presbyterian-Episcopalian-Quaker-Muslum, Radical Orthodox-Confessing church theologian, high-church liturgist, music teacher of a democratic classroom method who sees matter as error (along with various levels of hell). No wonder I feel a little unfocused some days.

  224. avatar
    jamese777 October 25, 2010 at 12:47 am #

    Would somebody please explain to me how a Swiss law book concerned with international law can have ANY impact on the law of the land in the United States of America? I don’t get it.

  225. avatar
    DancingRabbit October 25, 2010 at 1:27 am #

    jamese777: Would somebody please explain to me how a Swiss law book concerned with international law can have ANY impact on the law of the land in the United States of America? I don’t get it.

    President John Adams: 1801

    “The reasoning in the letter of our late envoys to France is so fully supported by the writers on the law of nations, particularly by Vattel…,”

    Zachary Taylor:

    “So long as the act of Congress of the 20th of April, 1818, which owes its existence to the law of nations and to the policy of Washington himself..,”

    Lincoln:

    “For myself, I have no doubt of the power and duty of the Executive, under the law of nations, to exclude enemies of the human race from an asylum in the United States. If Congress should think that proceedings in such cases lack the authority of law, or ought to be further regulated by it, I recommend that provision be made for effectually preventing foreign slave traders from acquiring domicile and facilities for their criminal occupation in our country…

    U.S. Supreme Court
    U S v. ARJONA, 120 U.S. 479 (1887)

    1. “Vattel in his Law of Nations, which was first printed at Neuchatel in 1758, and was translated into English and published in England in 1760, uses this language”

    2 “.Vat. Law. Nat. (Phil. Ed. 1876,) bk. 1, c. 10, pp. 46, 47. In a note by Mr. Chitty, in his London edition of 1834, it is said:..

    3 “.Vattel meant when he said: ‘For the same reason that sovereigns are obliged to protect commerce, they are obliged to support this custom;’ ‘namely, exchange, or the traffic of bankers, by means of which a merchant remits immense sums from one end of the world to the other,’ ‘by good laws, in which every merchant, whether citizen or foreigner, may find security.’ ‘

    4. “In the time of Vattel certificates of the public debt of a nation, government bonds, and other government securities, were rarely seen in any other country than that in which they were put..”

    5. “These all rest on the same power of congress that is here invoked, and it has never been supposed they were invalid because they did not expressly declare that the offenses there defined were offenses against the law of nations.”

  226. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 25, 2010 at 1:27 am #

    jamese777: Would somebody please explain to me how a Swiss law book concerned with international law can have ANY impact on the law of the land in the United States of America? I don’t get it.

    It only has impact on the law of the land in the Land of Smoke and Mirrors, james.

  227. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 25, 2010 at 1:31 am #

    Rest assured that Congress is not going to remove a president because of an archaic Swiss philosophy book.

  228. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 25, 2010 at 1:34 am #

    If Congress could have found their “Obama’s Waterloo” in Vattel’s book, they would have used it by now.

  229. avatar
    DancingRabbit October 25, 2010 at 1:40 am #

    Character for life: an American heritage : profiles of great men and women …
    By Don Hawkinson

    “The Founders embraced the views of Leibnez and Vattel…..” page 3.

  230. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP October 25, 2010 at 1:42 am #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP: If Congress could have found their “Obama’s Waterloo” in Vattel’s book, they would have used it by now.

    Should be “Republicans in Congress.”

  231. avatar
    DancingRabbit October 25, 2010 at 1:53 am #

    “Those citing Vattel in legal cases and government were:

    1. Franklin

    2. Adams

    3. John Jay

    4. James Wilson

    5. Alexander Hamilton

    6. John Marshall..

    Im tired listing…but there are more..including Jefferson.

  232. avatar
    richCares October 25, 2010 at 2:23 am #

    Im tired listing…but there are more..including Jefferson
    .
    might as well stop then
    the “law of nations” you are fond of quoting out of context has nothing to do with Vattel, all you are doing here is proving how little you know (like your silly INS comment)
    why don’t you stay at FR where your foolishness is appreciated, here you only provide humor as we laugh at you!

  233. avatar
    sfjeff October 25, 2010 at 2:25 am #

    ““Those citing Vattel in legal cases and government were:”

    By all means then, show us those smoking guns where Franklin says ‘Hey I read De Vattel last night, and he sure has right idea when it comes to natural born citizens!”

    Because when I look at pretty much everyone who talks about what a Natural Born citizen for the last two hundred years, De Vattel is never mentioned, nobody says anything about 2 citizen parents, but some obscure lawyer in 2008 suddenly discovers that Vattel wrote the Constitution!

  234. avatar
    racosta October 25, 2010 at 2:48 am #

    Vattel is very important to birthers, they believe he helped to write the constitution, one proof is guns, Vattel was against citizen owning guns, that is why the constitution banned owning gun. What, we didn’t follow Vattel on guns. Why is that. Why I am sure I saw his name on the Declaration of Independence, what you say not there, why he helped form our nation, it’s in all the textbooks, what you say not in the textbooks. Well he was in America, what he wasn’t. Then what’s all this Vattel crap about, oh it’s birthers, OK got that! They got to have proof on the 2 citizens theory, so we need to believe a complete foreigner decided that issue for America, well I can get you a large inheritance from So. Africa, just send me the filling fee of $500.00. mail it to Berfrstan attn P. Berg.

  235. avatar
    sfjeff October 25, 2010 at 2:49 am #

    Character for life: an American heritage : profiles of great men and women …
    By Don Hawkinson

    “The Founders embraced the views of Leibnez and Vattel…..” page 3.

    I just love actually looking at Birther citations- because they rarely say what Birthers think they say. Hawkinson is talking about religion and “Natural Law”- which amazingly enough is not De Vattel’s sole property.

    But throughout Hawkinson’s writings- not a word about how De Vattel defined Natural born citizen- or even how De Vattel discussed citizenship. Odd isn’t it?

    Its almost like Hawkinson didn’t think that De Vattel had anything to do with the defintion of natural born citizenship.

  236. avatar
    richCares October 25, 2010 at 3:07 am #

    “because they rarely say what Birthers think they say”
    Right on Sfjeff, why that’s a birther truism you can count on! Don’t cha know!

  237. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 25, 2010 at 8:04 am #

    DancingRabbit: “Those citing Vattel in legal cases and government were:

    1. Franklin

    2. Adams

    3. John Jay

    4. James Wilson

    5. Alexander Hamilton

    6. John Marshall..

    Im tired listing…but there are more..including Jefferson.

    Since no work by Vattel used the phrase “natural born citizen” prior to the ratification of the constitution, those citations are moot.

  238. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 25, 2010 at 8:07 am #

    DancingRabbit: Zachary Taylor:

    “So long as the act of Congress of the 20th of April, 1818, which owes its existence to the law of nations and to the policy of Washington himself..,”

    “the law of nations” is a generic term meaning “international law” and not a citation of Emerich de Vattel’s book of which that is a shortened title of the English translation. Are you trying to mislead us? It doesn’t work here.

  239. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) October 25, 2010 at 8:20 am #

    DancingRabbit: “Those citing Vattel in legal cases and government were:1. Franklin2. Adams3. John Jay4. James Wilson5. Alexander Hamilton6. John Marshall..
    Im tired listing…but there are more..including Jefferson.

    you can keep making up stuff all you like prove that they cited vattel’s law if nations specifically in regards to citizenship

  240. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) October 25, 2010 at 8:24 am #

    DancingRabbit:
    President John Adams: 1801“The reasoning in the letter of our late envoys to France is so fully supported by the writers on the law of nations, particularly by Vattel…,”Zachary Taylor:
    “So long as the act of Congress of the 20th of April, 1818, which owes its existence to the law of nations and to the policy of Washington himself..,”Lincoln:“For myself, I have no doubt of the power and duty of the Executive, under the law of nations, to exclude enemies of the human race from an asylum in the United States. If Congress should think that proceedings in such cases lack the authority of law, or ought to be further regulated by it, I recommend that provision be made for effectually preventing foreign slave traders from acquiring domicile and facilities for their criminal occupation in our country…
    U.S. Supreme Court
    U S v. ARJONA, 120 U.S. 479 (1887)
    1. “Vattel in his Law of Nations, which was first printed at Neuchatel in 1758, and was translated into English and published in England in 1760, uses this language”2 “.Vat. Law. Nat. (Phil. Ed. 1876,) bk. 1, c. 10, pp. 46, 47. In a note by Mr. Chitty, in his London edition of 1834, it is said:..3 “.Vattel meant when he said: For the same reason that sovereigns are obliged to protect commerce, they are obliged to support this custom;’ namely, exchange, or the traffic of bankers, by means of which a merchant remits immense sums from one end of the world to the other,’ by good laws, in which every merchant, whether citizen or foreigner, may find security.’ ‘4. “In the time of Vattel certificates of the public debt of a nation, government bonds, and other government securities, were rarely seen in any other country than that in which they were put..”5. “These all rest on the same power of congress that is here invoked, and it has never been supposed they were invalid because they did not expressly declare that the offenses there defined were offenses against the law of nations.”

    i notice how none of your quotes have anything to do with citizenship which is what we were discussing try to keep up. Also your quotes have law of nations in lowercase letters it’s obvious they were talking about the generic term and not the book

  241. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) October 25, 2010 at 9:23 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): i notice how none of your quotes have anything to do with citizenship which is what we were discussing try to keep up. Also your quotes have law of nations in lowercase letters it’s obvious they were talking about the generic term and not the book

    To further iterate. Those that directly address Vattel have nothing to do with citizenship which is what we were talking about. US V Arjona was not a citizenship case. Here is something for you to think about. The constitution talks about offenses against the law of nations. Using your logic that would be a direct reference to Lord Blackstone’s book: Commentaries on the Laws of England Book the Fourth – Chapter the Fifth : Of Offences Against the Law of Nations

  242. avatar
    gorefan October 25, 2010 at 10:26 am #

    DancingRabbit: law of nations

    You seem to be under the impression that Vattel invented the term “law of nations”, it predates him by a number of years.

    “neither shall one man satisfy for the offence of another by reprisals, or other such like odious proceedings, unless justice be denied, or unreasonably delayed, in which case it shall be lawful for that King, whose subject hath suffered the lofs’ and injury, to take any course according to the rules and method of the law of nations, until reparation be made to the sufferer.” From “A Treaty for the composing of “Differences, restraining of Depredations, and establishing of Peace in America, between the Crowns of Great Britain and Spain, concluded at Madrid, the Day of July, in the Year of our Lord 1670.”

    And under English law if you born in the realm (with few exceptions) you were a “natural born” subject even umder the “law of nations”

  243. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) October 25, 2010 at 11:07 am #

    gorefan: You seem to be under the impression that Vattel invented the term “law of nations”, it predates him by a number of years.“neither shall one man satisfy for the offence of another by reprisals, or other such like odious proceedings, unless justice be denied, or unreasonably delayed, in which case it shall be lawful for that King, whose subject hath suffered the lofs’ and injury, to take any course according to the rules and method of the law of nations, until reparation be made to the sufferer.” From “A Treaty for the composing of “Differences, restraining of Depredations, and establishing of Peace in America, between the Crowns of Great Britain and Spain, concluded at Madrid, the Day of July, in the Year of our Lord 1670.”And under English law if you born in the realm (with few exceptions) you were a “natural born” subject even umder the “law of nations”

    Not to mention Christian Wolff also wrote a book entitled the Law of Nations before Vattel this book was written in Latin.

  244. avatar
    Bovril October 25, 2010 at 11:29 am #

    If we want to really start to dig into the roots of the “Law of Nations”, we can further step back into the “Lex Mercatoria” during the early medieval period.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_mercatoria

    This was a codified set of transnational trading laws and agreements set in place and with clear antecedents back to before the 1300’s,

    http://www.stevesachs.com/papers/paper_thesis.html

    Here we have the “Courts – Merchant” and the “Legal – Merchant” cutting across the nation-states and a set of voluntarily entered into international laws.

    Kind before De-Vattel….Or we could carry on back to the late Roman period where the laws between nations as the Law of Nations were codified (to Roman advantage of course).

    The Ius Gentium (“Law of nations”) was the body of common laws that applied to foreigners, and their dealings with Roman citizens.

    Link to both

    http://books.google.com/books?id=6tCMDqb54OQC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=%22Ius+Gentium+%22+codified&source=bl&ots=MEL20HmLIy&sig=9op2CIuidVd2WEiLSJ_FKm2HEQM&hl=en&ei=1qHFTP6DHIG88gbgxu3XBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Ius%20Gentium%20%22%20codified&f=false

    So, Looks like De-VAttel was a bit of a latercomer to the party….Oh and it still has squat to do with President Obab’s nationality……8-)

  245. avatar
    Bovril October 25, 2010 at 11:48 am #

    Monday Morning giggle…

    Just had a quick look at the AWESOME Berg rally video of about 20 people.

    It took a minute to realise that one of the flag holders behind Berg is actually wearing an apparently home made Captain America outfit.

    By there supporters ye shall know them…..

    Cue at about 45 seconds for the “You can’t seeeeee meeeee” shot.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTbUPs8b7bY

  246. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) October 25, 2010 at 11:55 am #

    Bovril: Monday Morning giggle…Just had a quick look at the AWESOME Berg rally video of about 20 people.It took a minute to realise that one of the flag holders behind Berg is actually wearing an apparently home made Captain America outfit.By there supporters ye shall know them…..Cue at about 45 seconds for the “You can’t seeeeee meeeee” shot.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTbUPs8b7bY

    It would have been funny to see waldo during that

  247. avatar
    richCares October 25, 2010 at 12:04 pm #

    what’s amazing is that as you show birthers their errors and it sinks through, they still trust those that mislead them (ex: DancingRabbit’s INS story as well as his hanging on to Vattel bull pupu)
    .
    the only thing that can account for this is mental illness, hating Obama causes brain damage, the entire birther movement is confirmation and proof of this.

  248. avatar
    Rickey October 25, 2010 at 4:11 pm #

    “He’s adopted or acknowledged in Indonesia.”

    I always enjoy the part where Berg and the other birthers claim that there is no evidence that Obama ever “legally changed his name” to Barack Hussein Obama. Of course they ignore the fact that there is no evidence that he ever legally changed his name to Barry Soetoro. First things first, folks.

  249. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) October 25, 2010 at 4:53 pm #

    Rickey: “He’s adopted or acknowledged in Indonesia.”I always enjoy the part where Berg and the other birthers claim that there is no evidence that Obama ever “legally changed his name” to Barack Hussein Obama. Of course they ignore the fact that there is no evidence that he ever legally changed his name to Barry Soetoro. First things first, folks.

    Its like the bogus information of why they want his college transcripts to begin with. Even though those records wouldn’t prove what they want. They still think he was a fulbright scholar based off of some april fools day article