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What’s he hiding?

Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin and Donald Trump all agree on one thing: there’s something on Obama’s original birth certificate he doesn’t want seen. This idea that there is something on Obama’s hospital birth certificate that he doesn’t want anyone to see is curious. I mean, what could it be? The certificate that Obama has already provided nails down most of what the original birth certificate must contain. All that’s left up in the air is:

  • Box 3: Whether he was a twin or triplet
  • Box 6c: Name of hospital
  • Box 6d: Place of birth in city limits
  • Box 7a-g: Mother’s address
  • Box 10: Age of Father
  • Box 11: Father birthplace
  • Box 12a-b: Father Occupation and business
  • Box 15: Age of Mother
  • Box 16: Mother’s birth place
  • Box 17 a-b: Occupation and date last worked
  • Box 18 a-b: Informant name and date (usually mother)
  • Box 19 a-b: Attendant name and date (Doctor name)
  • Box 21: Signature of registrar

The mother and father information is well documented elsewhereย  and the mother’s address was disclosed through the newspaper announcement, so about the only thing of interest left on the form is the mother and father’s occupation, the name of the hospital and the name of the doctor (Dr. Fukino’s NBC interview disclosed that there was a doctor signature). So I find it hard to imagine where the scandal could come in those pieces of information

453 Responses to What’s he hiding?

  1. avatar
    richCares April 10, 2011 at 11:11 pm #

    it will show he was born in mombasu in the south east part of Krypton to Jor-El and Lara Lor-Van, but that is well known and Obama admited that in a press conference. That will be clearly shown on the birth certificate.
    .
    except for die hard brain damaged birthers, this issue is over!

  2. avatar
    Majority Will April 10, 2011 at 11:12 pm #

    “So I find it hard to imagine where the scandal could come in those pieces of information . . .”

    The registrar was then 48 year old Jimmy Hoffa.

  3. avatar
    Dave April 10, 2011 at 11:22 pm #

    I have pressed birthers on exactly this point, and have not yet found one who will answer.

    In particular, during the Lakin trial there was that whole meme of “Obama could save Lakin from going to trial if he would just show his long-form.” How, I would ask. No answer, but much implication that it was obvious and I was just being difficult.

    So I can only speculate, but the only speculation that seems to fit the manner of not answering my question is that many birthers take it as a given that there is no long form birth certificate, and that the birth certificate we’ve seen is a fake, in which I suppose the government of Hawaii is complicit.

  4. avatar
    gorefan April 10, 2011 at 11:40 pm #

    You forget that birthers assume the COLB is a fake (actually some say that there are four fakes). So they believe that the last box – Evidence for Late Filing or Alteration must have an entry of “amended”.

  5. avatar
    US Citizen April 10, 2011 at 11:57 pm #

    There’s no way Obama would have known what was included on the COLB when he ordered it.
    There was no logical reason to request a long form and they automatically send the standard “short form” COLB for all legal purposes, so how would he know what was to be included or not before ordering it? There was no reason to order something not only possibly unavailable, but also something that wouldn’t be legal.

    Unless of course, he recalled that his original certificate had the now-deleted box 22 “You ain’t from around here are you, boy?”

    Bottom-line: all suspicions include assumption of fraud on the part of the dept of health, which is ridiculous.
    Even if he attempted to bribe them for whatever imaginative reason, no presidential hopeful would ever take such a chance in case he got caught. It’s doubtful anyone could bribe or blackmail Fukino, Onaka AND Lingle.

  6. avatar
    Joey April 10, 2011 at 11:59 pm #

    gorefan:
    You forget that birthers assume the COLB is a fake (actually some say that there are four fakes).So they believe that the last box – Evidence for Late Filing or Alteration must have an entry of “amended”.

    Wouldn’t “amended” then need to be on the COLB?
    Birther “butterdezillion” constantly says that the Hawaii Department of Health has “admitted” that Obama’s COLB was “amended.”

  7. avatar
    Sef April 11, 2011 at 12:02 am #

    US Citizen:
    There’s no way Obama would have known what was included on the COLB when he ordered it.
    There was no logical reason to request a long form and they automatically send the standard “short form” COLB for all legal purposes, so how would he know what was to be included or not before ordering it? There was no reason to order something not only possibly unavailable, but also something that wouldn’t be legal.

    Unless of course, he recalled that his original certificate had the now-deleted box 22 “You ain’t from around here are you, boy?”

    Bottom-line: all suspicions include assumption of fraud on the part of the dept of health, which is ridiculous.
    Even if he attempted to bribe them for whatever imaginative reason, no presidential hopeful would ever take such a chance in case he got caught. It’s doubtful anyone could bribe or blackmail Fukino, Onaka AND Lingle.

    I have not understood why Obama really needed to get a new copy of his birth certificate. As a Senator he had a passport & he undoubtedly needed a BC to get that. He would have known what info was on the BC.

  8. avatar
    Expelliarmus April 11, 2011 at 12:19 am #

    He would not have needed a birth certificate to get his Senate passport — he only would have needed his prior passport. Once you have a passport, you never need a birth certificate to renew the passport – the previous passport always suffices. Since Obama had a passport as a child, there’s no particular reason he would have needed a b.c. at any time since.

  9. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith April 11, 2011 at 12:32 am #

    And what is the name of the attending doctor???

    I rest my case.

  10. avatar
    catbit April 11, 2011 at 12:33 am #

    I remember reading something long ago that indicated his birth certificate had been released to squell rumors his real name was Muhommad. Anyone else remember this?

  11. avatar
    G April 11, 2011 at 12:43 am #

    Sef: I have not understood why Obama really needed to get a new copy of his birth certificate. As a Senator he had a passport & he undoubtedly needed a BC to get that. He would have known what info was on the BC.

    His campaign wanted to order copies early on in the process. That much has been confirmed:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42519951/ns/politics-more_politics

    Her second point — one she made repeatedly in the interview — is that the shorter, computer generated “certification of live birth” that was obtained by the Obama campaign in 2007 and has since been publicly released is the standard document that anybody requesting their birth certificate from the state of Hawaii would receive from the health department.

    The document was distributed to the Obama campaign in 2007 after Obama, at the request of a campaign official, personally signed a Hawaii birth certificate request form downloaded on the Internet, according to a former campaign official who asked for anonymity. (Obama was “testy” when asked to sign the form but did so anyway to put the issue to rest, the former campaign official said. The White House has dismissed all questions about the president’s birth as “fictional nonsense.”)

    The certification that the campaign received back —which shows that Obama was born in Honolulu at 7:24 p.m. on Aug. 4, 1961 — was based on the content of the original document in state files, Fukino said.

    “What he got, everybody got,” said Fukino. “He put out exactly what everybody gets when they ask for a birth certificate.”

    As to why the campaign requested it, we can only speculate…but based on reason and logic, such explanations can be fairly simple:

    A logical assumption is that they wanted to have them handy in case they had to provide them when filing with each state for ballot access. Think about it – if you have to register in 50 states and there is a possibility that one or more SOS might ask for official documenation paperwork in your application, as a campaign staffer, I’d order up a bunch of copies of my BC in preparation too. It would really slow things down to provide the same document and wait to get it back (that presumes they don’t want to keep that official copy on file as part of their filing process) and then move on to the next state, etc.

    Other fairly standard, reasonable and plausible explanations include, that as of 2007, he decided to request a new BC because:

    A) People lose their original documents all the time. That is why it is such a common and standard procedure to allow people to request new certified copies. Although he mentioned finding his BC in his book, that was written well over a decade before his 2007 campaign started. Plenty of time for something to get lost.

    B)…or damaged/tattered and not in a condition to present. Another common reason for requesting a new copy.

    C)…or he simply didn’t want to risk parting with his original. Another common reason people will fork over the nominal fee to get a new copy, if they feel they might have to put that new copy to use.

    in summary, we do know his campaign suggested and got him to agree to request the new certified copy from HI in 2007. As to why they did, there are plenty of reasonable and common innoculous scenarios as to why this would happen during the start up months of his campaign.

  12. avatar
    G April 11, 2011 at 12:54 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: And what is the name of the attending doctor???

    1.) Although you may have personal curiosity as to who the doctor is, such curiosity is relegated to the level of usefulness of being trivia minutae.

    There is no actual legal relevance here to knowing the doctor’s name. Fukino has clearly stated that the doctor’s signature was there on the form she inspected. Who the doctor was is immaterial.

    Further, neither you nor any other individual is entitled to the doctor’s name. Nor does any of that info change the fact that he was born in Honolulu, HI as clearly stated on the rest of the form. That is really the only relevant issue. (that and date/time of birth…also provided on the COLB). Everything else is just trivia and distraction.

    Lucas D. Smith: I rest my case.

    ??? HUH ??? Sorry, Lucas, but you haven’t stated any “case” here, so your single sentence question followed by such a declaration makes absolutely no sense at all.

    I expect better from you than pulling such a simplistic Underpants Gnome leap of nothingness.

  13. avatar
    G April 11, 2011 at 1:00 am #

    catbit: I remember reading something long ago that indicated his birth certificate had been released to squell rumors his real name was Muhommad. Anyone else remember this?

    catbit: I remember reading something long ago that indicated his birth certificate had been released to squell rumors his real name was Muhommad. Anyone else remember this?

    Yes. Those early 2008 rumors appear to be the origin of WHY his campaign decided to post a scan of his COLB on the internet.

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

    However, those rumors likely had nothing to do with his campaign originally requesting the new COLB copy in 2007.

    See my post at April 11, 2011 at 12:43 am in respect to that.

  14. avatar
    gorefan April 11, 2011 at 1:05 am #

    Sef: As a Senator he had a passport & he undoubtedly needed a BC to get that.

    He had a passport since he was a child. Once he started to renew it, he would not necessarily need to keep submitting a BC. Just his old passports.

  15. avatar
    gorefan April 11, 2011 at 1:06 am #

    Joey: Wouldn’t “amended” then need to be on the COLB?

    Yes, it would, that is why birthers claim it has to be a fake.

  16. avatar
    gorefan April 11, 2011 at 1:08 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: And what is the name of the attending doctor???

    Can you look at the Nordyke twins BCs and tell me who the attending doctor is?

  17. avatar
    sponson April 11, 2011 at 1:25 am #

    Since Barack Obama moved abroad with his mother at a very young age, unlike most of us, he never had a moment where, as a teenager or an adult, he applied for a passport and had to take it with him. It means that he may have never seen his original BC at all, so the presumption that he knows what it contains, and that it also has something to “hide,” is truly grasping at straws, which is what Trump is doing.

  18. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith April 11, 2011 at 1:30 am #

    G: 1.) Although you may have personal curiosity as to who the doctor is, such curiosity is relegated to the level of usefulness of being trivia minutae.

    There is no actual legal relevance here to knowing the doctor’s name.Fukino has clearly stated that the doctor’s signature was there on the form she inspected.Who the doctor was is immaterial.

    Further, neither you nor any other individual is entitled to the doctor’s name.Nor does any of that info change the fact that he was born in Honolulu, HI as clearly stated on the rest of the form.That is really the only relevant issue. (that and date/time of birth…also provided on the COLB).Everything else is just trivia and distraction.

    ??? HUH ???Sorry, Lucas, but you haven’t stated any “case” here, so your single sentence question followed by such a declaration makes absolutely no sense at all.

    I expect better from you than pulling such a simplistic Underpants Gnome leap of nothingness.

    What are you talking about? You totally misinterpreted my comment.

    For the record I was referring the bulls–t report from earlier today about the “Former Director of the Hawaii Department of Health, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, made this stunning revelation in an interview with NBC”

    What is so “stunning” about the “revelation”?

    Again, WHAT IS THE DOCTOR’S NAME?

    Do you get it know?

    There is no long form Hawaiian birth certificate for Obama. At best there is an affidavit of birth.

    I expected better from the people on Doc’s blog.

    You people are like little sheep that will believe anything that your owner tells you.

    Tell Dr. Chiyome Fukino to cough up the doctor’s name or shut the pie hole up.

    Again, I rest my case.

    PS. what’s next, Obama tells you that he’s got the birth certificate in his pocket but he can’t pull it to show you but he can assure that it’s a long form birth certificate with an attending doctor? Then you write a story about claiming that the rumors have now been squashed and that Obama really does have a long form Hawaiian bc???

  19. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith April 11, 2011 at 1:37 am #

    You people are like little children. Lol! I have lost all respect for the posters on this forum. I like university style debate but that is no longer possible here.

    Peace my little children. Lol!

  20. avatar
    Joey April 11, 2011 at 1:40 am #

    Lucas D. Smith:
    You people are like little children.Lol! I have lost all respect for the posters on this forum.I like university style debate but that is no longer possible here.

    Peace my little children.Lol!

    It smells like……………………………………………………………………..VIC’TRY!
    (another one bites the dust)

  21. avatar
    richCares April 11, 2011 at 2:06 am #

    I have a large sum of money in South Africa, I need someone to claim it for me, you can get 30%, so I need a list of birther names so I can email them for help.
    email me the list at scammer@goldline.com
    .
    see birthers are good for something

  22. avatar
    G April 11, 2011 at 2:26 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: What are you talking about? You totally misinterpreted my comment.For the record I was referring the bulls–t report from earlier today about the “Former Director of the Hawaii Department of Health, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, made this stunning revelation in an interview with NBC”What is so “stunning” about the “revelation”?Again, WHAT IS THE DOCTOR’S NAME?Do you get it know?There is no long form Hawaiian birth certificate for Obama. At best there is an affidavit of birth.I expected better from the people on Doc’s blog.You people are like little sheep that will believe anything that your owner tells you.Tell Dr. Chiyome Fukino to cough up the doctor’s name or shut the pie hole up.Again, I rest my case.PS. what’s next, Obama tells you that he’s got the birth certificate in his pocket but he can’t pull it to show you but he can assure that it’s a long form birth certificate with an attending doctor? Then you write a story about claiming that the rumors have now been squashed and that Obama really does have a long form Hawaiian bc???

    Settle down there, Cujo! Obviously, you’ve completely snapped by being slapped with Fukino’s latest report and are angry that she gave further details which debunks a lot of your birther nonsense.

    Come back here when you’ve calmed down and aren’t rabidly frothing at the mouth and can talk rationally.

    I find it completely funny that you accuse Fukino and the office in charge of “lying”…that’s quite an ironic claim for you to make, given your past history. The whole point of the HI DOH is to be over such records, so yeah, I’ll take the word of officials from that office over some random individual who doesn’t work there and who has no authority on such matters and who has a very nefarious past any day of the week.

    You keep saying you “rest your case”…yet you have still failed to state any “case” in the first place. Demanding the doctor’s name is hardly a “case”… it is merely a question and not an argument that leads to any conclusion.

    You have yet to explain in any way here why you are entitled to the doctor’s name (hint: you aren’t) nor why it matters (hint: it doesn’t) nor how it is relevant and not a side-issue distraction completely immaterial to the COLB clearly stating (and ALL officials in HI along with all REAL evidence so far clearly backing up) place of birth as HONOLULU, HI.

    My advice to you – take a nap.

  23. avatar
    sfjeff April 11, 2011 at 2:30 am #

    “For the record I was referring the bulls–t report from earlier today about the “Former Director of the Hawaii Department of Health, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, made this stunning revelation in an interview with NBC”

    What is so “stunning” about the “revelation”?

    Again, WHAT IS THE DOCTOR’S NAME?

    Do you get it know?

    There is no long form Hawaiian birth certificate for Obama. At best there is an affidavit of birth.”

    Wow- losing it more than usual Lucas.

    I frankly can’t even decipher what you are trying to say. Except of course your declaration about the birth certificate- I think I will believe Dr. Fukino- a medical professional who actually has credibility and heals people before I believe you….who does neither.

  24. avatar
    Zixi of Ix April 11, 2011 at 3:39 am #

    Many/most birthers seem to believe one or more of the following, regardless of what the certificate of birth/birth certificate, hospital and now Hawaiian officials say:
    1). The birth certificate will show that it was amended to reflect Mr. Obama being adopted by Mr. Sotero.
    2). The birth certificate will show that there was another father and/or another mother listed (some birthers believe that Mr. Obama’s grandfather was really his father and that a prostitute was his mother, that Frank Davis was his father, that Malcolm X was his father, etc.
    3). That the baby is listed as a Muslim. This had fallen out of favor until recently. When Donald Trump mentioned it, it reared its ugly head again.
    4. That the date will show that President Obama was actually born before Hawaii became a state.
    5. That President Obama was actually named Barry, or that his last name was Dunham or some name other than Barack Obama II.
    6. That Mr. Obama was listed as Caucasian.
    7. Other cockamamie goofball theories.

    I would add that regardless of what they believe, nothing will convince birthers of the truth. No document, no testimony, no eyewitnesses. Nothing. They need to believe anything, regardless of how improbable, to support their world view that Obama could not have been elected to office by the American people.

    I would also like to add that the nature of their denials is so odious and nasty, striking at the President’s family, that Democrats would be foolish to allow this sort of opportunity to go to waste in 2012.

  25. avatar
    Hawaiiborn April 11, 2011 at 4:21 am #

    lucas, i dont know the name of the doctor that delivered me, and will never will

    My parents don’t remember, since I was born at Trippler Army Medical Center, and those doctors are rotated out faster than day old swiss cheese.

    The delivery doctor makes no difference. It could have been the attending nurse. It could have been someone in the waiting room in the Emergency room who delivered the baby.

    A delivery doctor means squat to eligibility.

  26. avatar
    The Magic M April 11, 2011 at 4:22 am #

    > I remember reading something long ago that indicated his birth certificate had been released to squell rumors his real name was Muhommad.

    Actually I never quite understood this. What would another middle name have changed? And why did he feel compelled to dispel that rumour when he obviously does not care the slightest bit for the birfer crapfooleries? I may have missed it back then, but was this such a big thing that he felt he needed to clarify his middle name is Hussein and not Muhammad?

    > I frankly can’t even decipher what you are trying to say.

    I think his incoherent babbling is supposed to say something like “since Dr Fukino did not say who the physician was, that info is not there, so there can’t be a long form BC”. It’s probably some illegitimate cousin of the “Abercrombie said he can’t find the BC” idiocy, again desperately trying to read something else/new into what someone said. A new birfer meme and we’re witnessing it’s birth. ๐Ÿ˜‰

  27. avatar
    The Magic M April 11, 2011 at 4:23 am #

    > Again, WHAT IS THE DOCTOR’S NAME?

    Again, Lucas, WHAT IS THE PROPER SPELLING OF DR MAGANGA’S NAME? Until you can get the one right, I’ll consider you the sloppy forger that you are.

  28. avatar
    obsolete April 11, 2011 at 4:29 am #

    AS has been mentioned, the birthers are frothing today all over the internet- They are faced with an epic slap-down that will sting forever.

  29. avatar
    Sean April 11, 2011 at 4:58 am #

    I’m a little confused. Why would the COLB be considered altered?

  30. avatar
    Daniel April 11, 2011 at 5:06 am #

    Lucas D. Smith:
    You people are like little children.Lol! I have lost all respect for the posters on this forum.I like university style debate but that is no longer possible here.

    Peace my little children.Lol!

    Don’t go away mad… just go away.

  31. avatar
    Sean April 11, 2011 at 5:08 am #

    gorefan: Can you look at the Nordyke twins BCs and tell me who the attending doctor is?

    Good point. I took a look and can’t make out the Dr.’s name from the signature. (probably the case for most docs.)

  32. avatar
    US Citizen April 11, 2011 at 6:29 am #

    There’s no birth certificate or delivery doctor’s name for Jesus and he was even likely born with dark skin, yet billions believe in him.
    The difference is that over thousands of years, Jesus basically turned into a white guy.

    Obama? That’s harder to do what with cameras and whatnot and so birthers have no wiggle room here.
    They can’t turn Obama white.

    Therefore, no doctor = no birth.
    No birth = no Obama.
    It’s very simple. They can’t use revisionism or faith here.
    They’re stuck with facts and facts are a huge bother when it comes to birthers.

  33. avatar
    Scientist April 11, 2011 at 6:32 am #

    So now the new birther meme is THE DOCTOR’S NAME. And what exactly would they do with that? There are 2 possibilities:

    1. The doctor is dead-given that a doctor who was 30 in 1961 would be 80 today, this is quite likely. In this case, proceed with the standard slandering of the dead as was done with alleging fraud against Ms Dunham Sr and Jr, despite the lack of a scintilla of evidence against them in this, or any other case. I’m guessing that we will hear that this doctor was bribed with millions of Soros’ bucks (even though Soros had no millions in 1961) to falsely sign a certificate.

    2. The doctor is alive and enjoying a well-earned retirement. In this case, organize a birther mass demonstration at his house or golf course (i.e., 3 people) to demand that he answer questions about this one delivery he did (out of hundreds or thousands during his career) 50 years ago. If he refuses to be interviewed or claims he doesn’t remember anything after all those years, then obviously he is a willing particpant in the greatest cover-up in human history. If he interrupts his golf game to say a few words about the littlle he remembers, then parse every word, pause and “ahem” in his statement for some minor inconsistency and call him a liar. Perhaps he says Nurse Fukushima assisted and it turns out that she wasn’t on duty on August 4 and it was actually Nurse Takahara. Regardless, the birth of a President is monumentally important, even though no one would know it at the time, so how can he not accurately remember every detail 50 years later?

  34. avatar
    US Citizen April 11, 2011 at 6:39 am #

    Pauly: A package arrived at the front gate.
    Tessio hands the package to Sonny, who opens it.
    (a birth certificate is unwrapped revealing two long fake eyelashes)
    Sonny: What the hell is this?
    Tessio: It’s a Sicilian message. It means Lucas Smith sleeps with the birthers.

  35. avatar
    misha April 11, 2011 at 6:52 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: And what is the name of the attending doctor???

    The attending doctor was Dr. Tari. Everyone called him Doc Tari.

    Thank you. I’ll be here all week.

  36. avatar
    Suranis April 11, 2011 at 7:07 am #

    Dammit. I had my money on Doogie Howser MD.

  37. avatar
    misha April 11, 2011 at 7:08 am #

    I have posted this several times before, and I’ll try again.

    Linda Lingle is Jewish. She felt McCain/Palin would be far better for Israel, than Obama.

    If she could have found anything, the GOP would have used it with glee.

  38. avatar
    Twinx April 11, 2011 at 7:22 am #

    You missed one, Doc.

    I can’t make out the number but it’s ‘Mother’s Mailing Address’, right under ‘Mother’s Address’.

    I came across a birther who seems to cherish the notion of that box being filled in with an address that will (he feels) utterly discredit Obmama’s ‘life story’ (which he didn’t write).

    Yoo-hoo, Smiffy! Did you forget to send Dr Fukino the ‘real’ certificate?

    Enjoy your ‘university style’ debates with Arnold Carl Tapp ๐Ÿ˜‰

  39. avatar
    Stanislaw April 11, 2011 at 7:26 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: What are you talking about? You totally misinterpreted my comment.

    For the record I was referring the bulls–t report from earlier today about the “Former Director of the Hawaii Department of Health, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, made this stunning revelation in an interview with NBC”

    What is so “stunning” about the “revelation”?

    Again, WHAT IS THE DOCTOR’S NAME?

    Do you get it know?

    There is no long form Hawaiian birth certificate for Obama.At best there is an affidavit of birth.

    I expected better from the people on Doc’s blog.

    You people are like little sheep that will believe anything that your owner tells you.

    Tell Dr. Chiyome Fukino to cough up the doctor’s name or shut the pie hole up.

    Again, I rest my case.

    PS.what’s next, Obama tells you that he’s got the birth certificate in his pocket but he can’t pull it to show you but he can assure that it’s a long form birth certificate with an attending doctor? Then you write a story about claiming that the rumors have now been squashed and that Obama really does have a long form Hawaiian bc???

    Well if I didn’t know any better, I’d say that the little birther is upset. Quick, somebody call the whaaaambulance.

  40. avatar
    Robert Clark April 11, 2011 at 7:28 am #

    Dave: I have pressed birthers on exactly this point, and have not yet found one who will answer

    Perhaps the physicians name was Dr. Jomo Kenyatta of Mombassa.

    Bob

  41. avatar
    Keith April 11, 2011 at 7:31 am #

    US Citizen: They can’t turn Obama white.

    Never heard of Michael Jackson then, I guess. ๐Ÿ˜Ž

  42. avatar
    Northland10 April 11, 2011 at 7:34 am #

    Scientist: The doctor is alive and enjoying a well-earned retirement. In this case, organize a birther mass demonstration at his house or golf course (i.e., 3 people) to demand that he answer questions about this one delivery he did (out of hundreds or thousands during his career) 50 years ago.

    If there was ever a better reason for the rules against releasing a copy of the birth record (i.e the birther long-form), this is it. If I were the delivering doctor (or their family), I would not want a bunch crazy birthers hounding me, followed eventually by the press. The poor doctor should not have to have his life turned upside down because of a routine deliver almost 50 years ago.

  43. avatar
    Keith April 11, 2011 at 7:37 am #

    Stanislaw: Well if I didn’t know any better, I’d say that the little birther is upset. Quick, somebody call the whaaaambulance.

    Like this?

  44. avatar
    Tarrant April 11, 2011 at 7:39 am #

    Of course the birthers will recover. Much like after the first Hollister rejection by the Supreme Court, on which so many had placed false hope, they will simply expand the conspiracy to include her. Many already did, of course, long before this, but some (like butterdezillion) put her in the “Giving coded phrases to send signals of the truth” category. That will of course no longer be the case. Look at the evolution of the half dozen freep threads on this – within 50 posts (most of the time 5) she’s being nothing but trashed, slandered, called everything short of a whore for simply doing her job, and is branded as In On It(tm).

    Truly this is the biggest conspiracy in history. Most conspiracies have small organizations – the Illuminati, the fake moon landing, even the 9/11 Truthers don’t believe everyone in Bush’s White House down to the janitors was in on it. But at this point birthers claim that pretty much all of Bush’s top people, all of Obama’s, the entire Congress, 50 governors and secretaries of state, the entire court system, and the entire government of the state of Hawaii. Some even include a good number of allied foreign governments. That’s an immense number of people to have in on it without even ONE PERSON spilling the beans. Yet they believe nonetheless.

  45. avatar
    Majority Will April 11, 2011 at 8:59 am #

    sfjeff: I frankly can’t even decipher what you are trying to say.

    It’s a petulant, vile con artist and sociopath realizing his prized forgery has as much value as the pathetic finger painting of his erotic fantasy.

  46. avatar
    Adrian(Usedtobe)InFlorida April 11, 2011 at 9:04 am #

    We moved to the UK at the beginning of March, looks like we left before the real ‘Eligibility’ fireworks started, what with Trumpster (Rhymes with Dumpster, ironic, huh?) jumping into this rightwingnutjob fantasy.

    For a while I thought “Maybe he should just release the ‘long form’ certificate”, but now, it’s more fun to watch the twits foam at the mouth supporting trump, of all people, passing silly laws about having to show a birth certificate to qualify on a state’s presidential ballot (The Certificate shown on Obama’s website is all that will be necessary, as that is all that Hawaii issues) and so on. Meanwhile, people here in Europe laugh hysterically at the Right Wing’s thinly veiled racist rant against a man who is clearly a natural born citizen of the US.

    Oh, well, at least I can still vote in the 2012 elections, maybe I’ll register Rethuglican so as to vote for Palin or Trum in the primaries. ๐Ÿ™‚

  47. avatar
    Sean April 11, 2011 at 9:08 am #

    Suranis:
    Dammit. I had my money on Doogie Howser MD.

    My high school buddy Marcus Redmond played Raymond (Z-Man) on that show.

  48. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 11, 2011 at 9:09 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: And what is the name of the attending doctor???I rest my case.

    Why would you want the doctors name? Are you going to misspell his name on the next forgery you create?

  49. avatar
    Majority Will April 11, 2011 at 9:16 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Why would you want the doctors name?Are you going to misspell his name on the next forgery you create?

    Most likely, Luckless the con artist desperately needs the doctor’s name for an elaborate identity theft scam. It might even involve a demonically possessed painting of the doctor’s wife found in a haunted house. He has his eye on some fourteen year old girls willing to do anything for a piece of the action.

  50. avatar
    The Magic M April 11, 2011 at 9:33 am #

    > then parse every word, pause and “ahem” in his statement for some minor inconsistency and call him a liar

    Or, my favourite, try to find something in what he said to claim it contains a “hidden message” (or “red flag”) trying to give the birfers a helpful hint.

    You know, if he said “I delivered Barack Obama at Kapiolani in Hawaii”, they might twist it into “but he didn’t say it was the same Barack Obama who claims to be POTUS” or “he likely meant ‘deliver’ as in ‘dropped the child off’, not ‘helped give birth to'”. Birfers are so inventive when it comes to out-of-this-world crap…

    > Perhaps the physicians name was Dr. Jomo Kenyatta of Mombassa

    Or Helton/Heltan Maganga was on holidays and wanted to deliver the boy so he could get his name on a BC right this time?

  51. avatar
    thefarleftView April 11, 2011 at 9:40 am #

    more lies from the DEATHERS

    The last shot fired was from Joshua Wisch the enlisted birthgater and spokesman for the Hawaii AG’s Office who flat out lied telling MSNBC:

    “…state law does not in fact permit the release of “vital records,” including an original “record of live birth” — even to the individual whose birth it records.” -Source.

    The amazing and brilliant eligibility researcher Butterdezillion quickly debunks that lie and asks the sane question:

    This is such a load of BS it’s not even funny. The claim of the AG’s spokesperson that HI law does not authorize photocopies to be made is absolutely absurd.

    HRS 338-13 says:

    Ҥ338-13 Certified copies. (a) Subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18, the department of health shall, upon request, furnish to any applicant a certified copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof.

    (b) Copies of the contents of any certificate on file in the department, certified by the department shall be considered for all purposes the same as the original, subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18.

    (c) Copies may be made by photography, dry copy reproduction, typing, computer printout or other process approved by the director of health. [L 1949, c 327, §17; RL

    1955, §57-16; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, §19; HRS §338-13; am L 1978, c 49, §1]”

    even an elections official working in HAwaii, Adams, a democrat stated many times “it is a well known fact among Hawaii DOH supervisors that Obama does not have a real birth certificate on file. A major cover up is going on….”

    can any one say
    COVER UP ????

  52. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 11, 2011 at 9:58 am #

    thefarleftView: more lies from the DEATHERSThe last shot fired was from Joshua Wisch the enlisted birthgater and spokesman for the Hawaii AG’s Office who flat out lied telling MSNBC:“…state law does not in fact permit the release of “vital records,” including an original “record of live birth” — even to the individual whose birth it records.” -Source.The amazing and brilliant eligibility researcher Butterdezillion quickly debunks that lie and asks the sane question:This is such a load of BS it’s not even funny. The claim of the AG’s spokesperson that HI law does not authorize photocopies to be made is absolutely absurd.HRS 338-13 says:“§338-13 Certified copies. (a) Subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18, the department of health shall, upon request, furnish to any applicant a certified copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof.(b) Copies of the contents of any certificate on file in the department, certified by the department shall be considered for all purposes the same as the original, subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18.(c) Copies may be made by photography, dry copy reproduction, typing, computer printout or other process approved by the director of health. [L 1949, c 327, §17; RL 1955, §57-16; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, §19; HRS §338-13; am L 1978, c 49, §1]”even an elections official working in HAwaii, Adams, a democrat stated many times “it is a well known fact among Hawaii DOH supervisors that Obama does not have a real birth certificate on file. A major cover up is going on….”can any one sayCOVER UP ????

    Haha “brilliant” and butterdezillion in the same sentence. That’s an oximoron. Read the statute you just posted again. “copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof” That’s what the COLB is a certified copy. You are not entitled to the original.

    Also Adams, who you claim is a democrat, has been completely discredited. He claimed he worked there during election time and had work with absentee ballots. The problem is that the time period he worked was an interrim period. The Hawaii Caucus took place in February. Adams worked from May to late July before he was put on leave and fired. Absentee ballots aren’t even sent out until about 60 days before the election. So once again Adams is a liar and can’t keep his story straight.

  53. avatar
    Sean April 11, 2011 at 10:00 am #

    thefarleftView:
    more lies from the DEATHERS

    even an elections official working in HAwaii, Adams, a democrat stated many times “it is a well known fact among Hawaii DOH supervisors that Obama does not have a real birth certificate on file. A major cover up is going on….”

    can any one say
    COVER UP ????

    OK, You caught us. I thought my Soros paychecks were going to last forever, but, I guess the jig is up.

    Obama doesn’t want you to find out his Dad’s occupation was a Calypso singer. It’s something the family doesn’t talk about.

    Also, his Mother’s address was a PO Box, a big one that she literally lived in with little Barry.

    Embarrassing.

  54. avatar
    Robert Clark April 11, 2011 at 10:01 am #

    Robert Clark: Perhaps the physicians name was Dr. Jomo Kenyatta of Mombassa.

    Bob

    Note: lest someone take this as the real delivery doctors name after doing a web search on it, this is only a joke.

    Bob

  55. avatar
    sarina April 11, 2011 at 10:10 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: And what is the name of the attending doctor???I rest my case.

    What is the name of the Bushe’s attending doctor? Palin’s? Huckabee?

  56. avatar
    Majority Will April 11, 2011 at 10:12 am #

    Robert Clark: this is only a joke.

    You didn’t get the memo?

    Jokes are supposed to be funny, birther boy.

    P.S. “Someone” would have to be a frightened, paranoid, mentally challenged birther pathetically chasing shadows and delusions in desperation to discredit and disparage the POTUS just to prop up emotionally fragile confirmation biases.

  57. avatar
    JoZeppy April 11, 2011 at 10:30 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: You people are like little children. Lol! I have lost all respect for the posters on this forum. I like university style debate but that is no longer possible here.Peace my little children. Lol!

    OH NO!!! Convicted forger and admitted child molester Lucas Smith has threatened to leave Dr’s board! That has never happened before.

  58. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 11, 2011 at 10:37 am #

    JoZeppy: OH NO!!! Convicted forger and admitted child molester Lucas Smith has threatened to leave Dr’s board! That has never happened before.

    Why would he threaten that? Lucas Smith does not make idle threats!!

  59. avatar
    J. Edward Tremlett April 11, 2011 at 11:31 am #

    Lucas D. Smith:
    And what is the name of the attending doctor???

    Hopefully not the one that performed your lobotomy.

  60. avatar
    Joey April 11, 2011 at 12:00 pm #

    Honolulu CIty Clerk’s office Administrator Glen Takahashi, Tim Adams’ supervisor debunks Adams’ attempt to get his 15 minutes of fame.
    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/right-now/2010/06/there_are_some_people_who.html

  61. avatar
    gorefan April 11, 2011 at 12:14 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Lucas Smith does not make idle threats!!

    That’s true, he makes fake birth certificates.

  62. avatar
    Thrifty April 11, 2011 at 1:11 pm #

    thefarleftView: Ҥ338-13 Certified copies. (a) Subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18, the department of health shall, upon request, furnish to any applicant a certified copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof.

    Jesus Christ. Don’t you nimrods know the meaning of the word “or”? I learned that in 1st grade.

  63. avatar
    Thrifty April 11, 2011 at 1:18 pm #

    thefarleftView: even an elections official working in HAwaii, Adams, a democrat stated many times “it is a well known fact among Hawaii DOH supervisors that Obama does not have a real birth certificate on file. A major cover up is going on….”

    I like how anti-birthers have “Director of Health Chiyome Fukino”, “State Registrar Alvin Onaka” and “Governor Linda Lingle”, but birthers have “an elections official working in Hawaii, Adams”.

    It reminds me of a story from Snopes, about a chain letter. The story of “a boy” from “an American town” who made $71,000 on an E-Mail pyramid scheme, which was featured on “a major news network”.

  64. avatar
    Wile E. April 11, 2011 at 1:32 pm #

    thefarleftView:
    can any one say
    COVER UP ????

    You’re right. Something is definitely getting covered up…

    http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2006/07/see-no-evil_hear-no-evil.jpg

  65. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 11, 2011 at 1:34 pm #

    Thrifty: I like how anti-birthers have “Director of Health Chiyome Fukino”, “State Registrar Alvin Onaka” and “Governor Linda Lingle”, but birthers have “an elections official working in Hawaii, Adams”.It reminds me of a story from Snopes, about a chain letter. The story of “a boy” from “an American town” who made $71,000 on an E-Mail pyramid scheme, which was featured on “a major news network”.

    But Adams isn’t even an official. It reminds me of this kid I used to work with who was a sales manager and had to ask if he was an officer of the company. I’m like does your title say VP in it?

  66. avatar
    Daniel April 11, 2011 at 1:54 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):Lucas Smith does not make idle threats!!

    No, just bad Kenyan BC forgeries

  67. avatar
    Daniel April 11, 2011 at 1:57 pm #

    thefarleftView:

    can any one say
    COVER UP ????

    Yes, any idiot can say it… apparently.

    The burden is in showing it.

    You should really learn the difference, and the significance thereof.

    Sorry about the big words.

  68. avatar
    y_p_w April 11, 2011 at 2:30 pm #

    gorefan: He had a passport since he was a child.Once he started to renew it, he would not necessarily need to keep submitting a BC.Just his old passports.

    Could there be a different requirement for special passports?

    Besides that, the copy of his certified BC used to obtain his original passport would probably have been in the form of a typed transcript.

  69. avatar
    gorefan April 11, 2011 at 2:38 pm #

    y_p_w: form of a typed transcript.

    I’m not sure what mean. When he got his first passport, as a child, I suspect that it looked like the Nordyke’s. Certainly in that format.

  70. avatar
    y_p_w April 11, 2011 at 3:33 pm #

    gorefan: I’m not sure what mean.When he got his first passport, as a child, I suspect that it looked like the Nordyke’s.Certainly in that format.

    I saw an image of a circa 1973-issued typed certified Hawaii BC abstract. I’m not sure when they would have gone to photocopies or if maybe there was an option to select a typed transcript. I posted a link to that one here, but I can’t seem to find it now.

  71. avatar
    gorefan April 11, 2011 at 4:17 pm #

    y_p_w: I saw an image of a circa 1973-issued typed certified Hawaii BC abstract.

    Here is the Nordyke’s BCs

    http://nativeborncitizen.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/nordyke-61.gif

    Something like this, I suspect, was used to get the President’s first passport.

  72. avatar
    Granite April 11, 2011 at 5:04 pm #

    I see that Lucas D. Smith is back, or was back. Well, if he is still here, I challenge him again to show proof that he was ever in Kenya. He has claimed to have gotten an Obama birth certificate in Mombassa Kenya, but Smith never proved that he was in Kenya. It would be easy to show a birth certificate with a Kenya stamp on it, but Smith has not done it.

  73. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 11, 2011 at 5:06 pm #

    gorefan: Something like [the Nordyke twin’s birth certificate], I suspect, was used to get the President’s first passport.

    Maybe and maybe not. Some old certified copies of birth certificates are very much like today’s COLB only hand typed. See, for example, this certificate from 1991, which could have been hand typed or computer typed onto security paper a decade before the Department says they went “paperless.”

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Peter_Boy_Certificate.pdf

    The individual on that certificate is deceased.

  74. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 11, 2011 at 5:14 pm #

    y_p_w: I saw an image of a circa 1973-issued typed certified Hawaii BC abstract. I’m not sure when they would have gone to photocopies or if maybe there was an option to select a typed transcript. I posted a link to that one here, but I can’t seem to find it now.

    This is the link you posted:

    http://www.politicalforum.com/united-states/166397-wtf-i-want-see-birth-certificate-i-mean-wtf-17.html

    I would think it most likely that Barack obtained his first passport either in 1965 when his mother married Lolo Soetoro and applied for her own passport or 1967 when his mother’s passport expired and was renewed. Barack Obama was not listed on his mother’s 1967 renewal application. So Barack Obama had to have a birth certificate issued some time between August 8, 1961 and July 19, 1967. The Nordyke certificate was issued in 1966, which falls comfortably within that range.

  75. avatar
    y_p_w April 11, 2011 at 5:21 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Maybe and maybe not. Some old certified copies of birth certificates are very much like today’s COLB only hand typed. See, for example, this certificate from 1991, which could have been hand typed or computer typed onto security paper a decade before the Department says they went “paperless.”

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Peter_Boy_Certificate.pdf

    The individual on that certificate is deceased.

    The following is what I had in mind. I would point out to Dr C that this person named in the BC is also deceased.

    http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/%7Ebryajw/HardestyPhotos/Keala%20Hardesty%20birth%20certificate.jpg

    I was thinking perhaps they had the option to get a copy from the microfiche (man those things are hard on the eyes) or to order up a typed abstract. It also looks like this particular abstract was hand-signed by the registrar (doesn’t look like a stamp or from a signature machine) and the form notes that it’s official with a raised seal. I would guess that such a form would still be valid as a primary document to obtain a passport. Also – no “date accepted” or “date filed”, but “date recorded”.

    I now understand that they had various means of issuing certified birth certificates in Hawaii.

  76. avatar
    y_p_w April 11, 2011 at 5:23 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: http://www.politicalforum.com/united-states/166397-wtf-i-want-see-birth-certificate-i-mean-wtf-17.html

    Thanks Dr C. I relocated it independently while you posted it.

  77. avatar
    BugZptr April 11, 2011 at 5:27 pm #

    thefarleftView – Quoting butterdezillion:
    more lies from the DEATHERS

    “§338-13 Certified copies. (a) Subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18, the department of health shall, upon request, furnish to any applicant a certified copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof.”

    I parsed that to be : If the request isn’t covered by the requirements of these other 3 listed parts of the statute then it shouldn’t be released. However butterdezillion didn’t actually quote the 3 listed parts, so it’d hard to judge what those requirements are. I’m picking (and am too lazy to actually look them up) they go some way toward specifying who should be given access to the records.

  78. avatar
    gorefan April 11, 2011 at 5:51 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Some old certified copies of birth certificates are very much like today’s COLB only hand typed.

    Well, I learned something new today. That’s interesting.

    What were the circumstances where someone would get that type of certification? or the type of certification that y_p_w linked to?

  79. avatar
    Laura April 11, 2011 at 6:14 pm #

    They just get nutter …

    Monday, April 11, 2011
    Obama Birth Certificate Declaration – Lucas Daniel Smith 04.10.2011 Declaration – Filed today, 04.11.2011, in the Superior Court of the District of Columbia
    128 U.S.C. § 1746 DECLARATION
    THERESA S. CAO, :

    http://thesteadydrip.blogspot.com/2011/04/obama-birth-certificate-decclaration.html

  80. avatar
    Sef April 11, 2011 at 6:30 pm #

    Laura:
    They just get nutter …

    Monday, April 11, 2011
    Obama Birth Certificate Declaration – Lucas Daniel Smith 04.10.2011 Declaration – Filed today, 04.11.2011, in the Superior Court of the District of Columbia
    128 U.S.C. § 1746 DECLARATION
    THERESA S. CAO, :

    http://thesteadydrip.blogspot.com/2011/04/obama-birth-certificate-decclaration.html

    Somebody’s gonna be in biiiiiig trouble!

  81. avatar
    Wile E. April 11, 2011 at 6:33 pm #

    Laura:
    They just get nutter …

    Monday, April 11, 2011
    Obama Birth Certificate Declaration – Lucas Daniel Smith 04.10.2011 Declaration – Filed today, 04.11.2011, in the Superior Court of the District of Columbia
    128 U.S.C. § 1746 DECLARATION
    THERESA S. CAO, :

    http://thesteadydrip.blogspot.com/2011/04/obama-birth-certificate-decclaration.html

    My google browser says do not visit this site. Don’t know why…just passin’ it on.

  82. avatar
    richCares April 11, 2011 at 6:57 pm #

    Laura:
    They just get nutter …

    this is so funny, the only person in the world that doesn’t know it’s fake is Cao
    too much

  83. avatar
    richCares April 11, 2011 at 7:11 pm #

    Doc, those BC copies shown will make charo upset
    they show Filipino,Chinese,American, Hawaiian as races
    my daughters BC shows Mother Japanese, Father Polish
    .
    it appears they have doing this a long time, at least since 1907
    charo will say “they don’t show African”

    the first shows races as Filipino,Chinese ansd then Hawaiian
    the second shows races: American, Hawaiian

  84. avatar
    y_p_w April 11, 2011 at 7:21 pm #

    BugZptr: I parsed that to be : If the request isn’t covered by the requirements of these other 3 listed parts of the statute then it shouldn’t be released. However butterdezillion didn’t actually quote the 3 listed parts, so it’d hard to judge what those requirements are. I’m picking (and am too lazy to actually look them up) they go some way toward specifying who should be given access to the records.

    I’ve gotten confused over this because the title of §338-13 is “Certified Copies”, which means its scope only reflects state law regarding the copies with the registrar’s signature and the official seal. I was under the impression that there is likely some sort of access law that would allow access to one’s own records.

    People have brought up UIPA, and this is the section that looks like it might apply:

    http://hawaii.gov/oip/uipa.html#92F21

    “[92F-23] Access to personal record; initial procedure. Upon the request of an individual to gain access to the individual’s personal record, an agency shall permit the individual to review the record and have a copy made within ten working days following the date of receipt of the request by the agency unless the personal record requested is exempted under section 92F-22. The ten-day period may be extended for an additional twenty working days if the agency provides to the individual, within the initial ten working days, a written explanation of unusual circumstances causing the delay.
    [L 1988, c 262, pt of §1; am L 2000, c 254, §1]”

  85. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 11, 2011 at 7:30 pm #

    y_p_w: It also looks like this particular abstract was hand-signed by the registrar (doesn’t look like a stamp or from a signature machine) and the form notes that it’s official with a raised seal.

    A lot of times when they digitize/film records they focus on the years that are most likely to be issued, newborns, kids entering school and drivers licenses. So issuing a certificate that far back might have involved some special processing.

  86. avatar
    Expelliarmus April 11, 2011 at 7:31 pm #

    Wile E.: My google browser says do not visit this site. Don’t know why…just passin’ it on.

    Malware.

    Here’s another place to pull up the same document via scribd:
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/52792420/Exhibit-THIRTY-SEVEN-Lucas-Daniel-Smith-04-10-2011-Declaration-Filed-04-11-2011-in-the-Superior-Court-of-the-District-of-Columbia-United-States

    Lucas has quite an imagination.

    I think that it will be obvious to any reader that this “affidavit” is a work of fantasy by the time they get to paragraph 4, though paragraph 8 is a doozy.

    The first part of paragraph 9 could be true, however: “Kenyans were amused at how gullible Americans could be ….”

  87. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 11, 2011 at 7:36 pm #

    Expelliarmus: I think that it will be obvious to any reader that this “affidavit” is a work of fantasy by the time they get to paragraph 4, though paragraph 8 is a doozy.

    So what are the legal implications to Smith, if any, should his statement be untrue?

  88. avatar
    Scientist April 11, 2011 at 8:04 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: So what are the legal implications to Smith, if any, should his statement be untrue?

    “Perjury, also known as forswearing, lying under oath or lying on oath, is the willful act of swearing a false oath or affirmation to tell the truth, whether spoken or in writing, concerning matters material to a judicial proceeding.”

    His statement is untrue. However, nothing in it is “material to a judicial proceeding”, since Theresa Cao is charged with disrupting Congress and even if a President were ineligible (some imaginary President could be) that is not a defense to the charges.

    That is why people like Lucas and Tim Adams feel free to make these idiotic affidavits. They know very well that they are not material to any case in any court now or probably ever, so they are lying, but not committing perjury..

  89. avatar
    Wile E. April 11, 2011 at 8:14 pm #

    Expelliarmus: Malware.

    Here’s another place to pull up the same document via scribd:
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/52792420/Exhibit-THIRTY-SEVEN-Lucas-Daniel-Smith-04-10-2011-Declaration-Filed-04-11-2011-in-the-Superior-Court-of-the-District-of-Columbia-United-States

    Lucas has quite an imagination.

    I think that it will be obvious to any reader that this “affidavit” is a work of fantasy by the time they get to paragraph 4, though paragraph 8 is a doozy.

    The first part of paragraph 9 could be true, however:“Kenyans were amused at how gullible Americans could be ….”

    Umm, thanks for the clean link. I’ve never encountered an affidavit that read like a bad soft-porn novel.

  90. avatar
    Black Lion April 11, 2011 at 8:24 pm #

    Wile E.: Umm, thanks for the clean link. I’ve never encountered an affidavit that read like a bad soft-porn novel.

    Bad soft porn is a compliment regarding that piece of trash….Lucas has the active imagination of a 10 year old boy reading Dad’s National Geographic magazine while locking himself in the bathroom….

  91. avatar
    Black Lion April 11, 2011 at 8:29 pm #

    Sef: Somebody’s gonna be in biiiiiig trouble!

    The more you read this the more you laugh….

    “In the month of February 2009 I was on the continent of Africa in the DemocraticRepublic of the Congo. This was not my first trip to the dark continent. The first time that I setfoot on African soil was in the year 2007. In February of 2009 I traveled to the Congo todocument the story of a cryptic (as in cryptozoology) animal that lives there in the Congo. This fabled creature is a dinosaur-like animal that is commonly referred to as Mokele Mbembe.”

    “Trip to the dark continent”? What? Is Lucas now Rudyard Kipling? And we still are waiting to see proof of Lucas Smith, famed convicted felon, ever visited Africa…

  92. avatar
    Passerby April 11, 2011 at 8:37 pm #

    Cryptic?… Should this not be cryptid

  93. avatar
    Expelliarmus April 11, 2011 at 8:40 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: So what are the legal implications to Smith, if any, should his statement be untrue?

    He potentially could be charged with perjury, but the declaration is so outlandish that I’m not sure that any prosecutor would want to waste time on it. I mean, perjury is a specific intent crime (it has to be shown that the declarant had actual knowledge that the statements are false), so “batshit crazy” is a viable defense.

    But more significant is the simple fact that the affidavit is immaterial to the case.

    Here’s a good summary of the federal perjury statute and what it requires:

    The federal perjury statute is 18 USC 1621. The elements of perjury are the following:

    1 A false statement.
    2. On a material issue.
    3. Made willfully and with knowledge that it was false.
    4. Under oath (by someone authorized to administer the oath).
    5. Before an authorized tribunal, officer, or person.

    See 18 USC 1621.

    A material issue is something that, in one way or another, determines the outcome of a legal proceeding. If the false statement would not or could not change the final disposition of a legal proceeding, then it is arguably immaterial and not a basis for perjury charges.

    See: http://www.federalcriminallawyer.us/2010/12/03/a-summary-of-federal-perjury-laws/

    I don’t see how this declaration could in any way be material to the charges against Cao.

    I’d also note that if every statement of fact made in the declaration was taken to be true, all it would show was that Smith was cheated out of $5700 by Kenyans who are amused at the gullibility of Americans. Obviously the attached document is not a valid or official birth certificate, and Smith’s declaration is not an appropriate way of authenticating a document.

  94. avatar
    y_p_w April 11, 2011 at 8:42 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: A lot of times when they digitize/film records they focus on the years that are most likely to be issued, newborns, kids entering school and drivers licenses. So issuing a certificate that far back might have involved some special processing.

    Still – I would have thought that they would at the very least have a rubber stamp with the registrar’s signature.

    I’ve brought up several of the engraved border forms used in California and other states.
    My experience is that the official registrar and/or health director signatures are preprinted on the form. I think the same sheet would be used no matter how old the original record is.

  95. avatar
    Tarrant April 11, 2011 at 8:44 pm #

    And this is why the birthed argument of “If (soandso) wa lying in their affidavit, Obama would prosecute them, thus everything in it must be true!”

    You can write down and sign and even have notarized a statement saying that you are a space alien. The notary is not there to determine whether the document being sworn to them is true or legally correct, their seal simply denoted that it was sworn and signed in their presence, and when. (Note that in some jurisdictions there are legal notaries that ARE also lawyers, but that is rare in the US).

    Birthers love the “sworn affidavit” because it sounds legalistic but means nothing outside of a court of law. Incidentally, it can often mean little inside it – a notarized contract is essential in court as an actual record of a contract signed, but a simple notarized statement by someone like a Tim Adams or Lucas Smith is rarely going to be accepted as they couldn’t be cross-examined. Any competent defense would insist that the plaintiff/prosecution subpoena the person and make them testify and subject to cross-examination (where, as we’ve seen for Tim Adams on Reality Check Radio, his story falls apart with contradictions).

    (Back during the Lisa Murkowski Alaska write-in campaign, there were a lot of complaints on freep that “concerned voters” signed affidavits about all sorts of “vote fraud” yet the Miller campaign didn’t bother submitting them in the various trials. People just didn’t get that a random signed affidavit, despite people hearing about them on The People’s Court, aren’t given much weight and the Miller campaign didn’t want to have their credibility destroyed on cross-examination. An affidavit like this is essentially heresay when the person is otherwise available to give the testimony in the flesh)

  96. avatar
    Keith April 11, 2011 at 9:04 pm #

    y_p_w: I’ve brought up several of the engraved border forms used in California and other states.
    My experience is that the official registrar and/or health director signatures are preprinted on the form. I think the same sheet would be used no matter how old the original record is.

    I find that doubtful. Preprinted signatures would negate the security aspects of the document.

    More likely the signature is digitized and then laser printed. I had such a digitized signature in the mid-80’s, and the place I worked at used them as early as 1979 or 1980.

  97. avatar
    y_p_w April 11, 2011 at 9:24 pm #

    Keith: I find that doubtful. Preprinted signatures would negate the security aspects of the document.

    More likely the signature is digitized and then laser printed. I had such a digitized signature in the mid-80โ€ฒs, and the place I worked at used them as early as 1979 or 1980.

    I think parts of the form were probably not printed on the original sheet, just in case the forms get stolen before reaching the office. However – I’ve seen one of these things being printed up before, and I thought that the “blank” sheet fed into the printer by the clerk already had the name of the government office and all the signatures. I think it might have been prepared in a two step process, where the BC form is the second print.

    I’ve seen several California vital records forms, and there are variations. Some counties/cities have a faint image of their seal in the background, while others leave it blank. Then there are the two different form printers, with slightly different patterns to their borders and backgrounds.

    I do have a school transcript where the registrar’s signature was offset printed right into the border of the sheet. It was a thick white on color and didn’t look anything close to a real signature. I mean – not by signature machine, stamp, or laser printed reproduction. It really didn’t seem all that secure to me. That transcript paper did have watermarks and other “security” features, but it always seemed to be that if sheets were stolen that someone could try to forge a transcript with a laser printer.

  98. avatar
    Keith April 11, 2011 at 9:39 pm #

    y_p_w: I think it might have been prepared in a two step process, where the BC form is the second print.

    That is a reasonable explanation. There may have been a separate ‘signature printing’ machine under harder security than the regular printer. This is a fairly standard precaution, even today, for employee ID badges.

  99. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 11, 2011 at 10:24 pm #

    Keith: That is a reasonable explanation. There may have been a separate signature printing’ machine under harder security than the regular printer. This is a fairly standard precaution, even today, for employee ID badges.

    What you sometimes see is the form burned into Read Only Memory in the printer. I’ve seen this in a couple of states when printing other security documents.

  100. avatar
    G April 11, 2011 at 10:31 pm #

    Expelliarmus: Malware. Here’s another place to pull up the same document via scribd:http://www.scribd.com/doc/52792420/Exhibit-THIRTY-SEVEN-Lucas-Daniel-Smith-04-10-2011-Declaration-Filed-04-11-2011-in-the-Superior-Court-of-the-District-of-Columbia-United-StatesLucas has quite an imagination. I think that it will be obvious to any reader that this “affidavit” is a work of fantasy by the time they get to paragraph 4, though paragraph 8 is a doozy. The first part of paragraph 9 could be true, however: “Kenyans were amused at how gullible Americans could be ….”

    Agreed. Wow…just wow…. Well, Lucas just topped his crazy ghost-house fantasy stories…that much can be said.

    As others have mentioned already, folks like Lucas & Adams know full well that their “affidavits” will never see the light of day in the courtroom and be subject to a challenge. It is a mere con scheme to dupe the rubes into thinking that they are important people willing to put their reputations on the line for their cause.

    Lucas’ latest pulp-adolecent-soft-porn fantasy-adventure screed is as immaterial to Cao’s charges as all of the rest of her exhibits and will never actually make it into the procedings.

    Honestly, the only value Lucas’ bizarre and lurid “affidafit” would be useful for in Cao’s case is as convincing evidence that she’s completely insane and too incompetent to stand trial. After reading it, his sanity needs to come into question too.

  101. avatar
    Keith April 11, 2011 at 11:44 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: What you sometimes see is the form burned into Read Only Memory in the printer. I’ve seen this in a couple of states when printing other security documents

    Yes, that is more common today I suspect. Even in the early 80’s the printer had a ‘form overlay’ memory for boilerplate stuff. (It isn’t ‘read only’ of course or the boilerplate could never be changed, but it is a separate operation to load it and that operation can be secured). We printed thousands of forms a night this way, it was a large insurance company.

    On the other hand, y_p_w reported seeing a report prepared that already had the signature on the ‘pre-printed form’. This speaks to another level of security, one where the signature printer is secured, perhaps in a different part of the building altogether. It is conceivable that that secure printer would be used for other documents as well, perhaps checks or whatever.

    I have seen such dedicated printers, with operator keys only available to supervisors, and further locked in a cupboard. The security paper was secured in a different part of the building again, in a vault. Surprise, surprise, it was a State Government department.

    I had to test just such a setup for a project installing a software package called SAP for a that State Government. SAP was being rolled out to all government departments in waves, and one of the first waves was using old printers that were not supported by SAP. SAP could not seem to send the control codes for loading the signature ‘boilerplate’, so we had to find them new ones that did work.

    In this case, the printer did the entire print job, boilerplate and detail. I have seen other installations where this was split into a two step print job. It was quite a production since they had to account for every page, and couldn’t afford to print one upside down. They would have to suffer the baleful stare of the security officer when they went downstairs to requisition more signed documents and verify the destruction of the ruined ones.

  102. avatar
    y_p_w April 11, 2011 at 11:56 pm #

    Keith:In this case, the printer did the entire print job, boilerplate and detail. I have seen other installations where this was split into a two step print job. It was quite a production since they had to account for every page, and couldn’t afford to print one upside down. They would have to suffer the baleful stare of the security officer when they went downstairs to requisition more signed documents and verify the destruction of the ruined ones.

    You should have seen it when I went to get one certified BC copy. The clerk took a look at the output after he had already run the certificate through the printer. He did a final check before running it through the embosser, only to realize that he had pulled up the wrong file. I’m wondering if they just have a place to store all the mistakes so they can be verified before final destruction. The “blank” form had some sort of serial number on it, and I’m thinking he would eventually have to reconcile it with the receipts.

  103. avatar
    J. Edward Tremlett April 12, 2011 at 12:12 am #

    Black Lion: The more you read this the more you laugh….

    “In the month of February 2009 I was on the continent of Africa in the DemocraticRepublic of the Congo. This was not my first trip to the dark continent. The first time that I setfoot on African soil was in the year 2007. In February of 2009 I traveled to the Congo todocument the story of a cryptic (as in cryptozoology) animal that lives there in the Congo. This fabled creature is a dinosaur-like animal that is commonly referred to as Mokele Mbembe.”

    “Trip to the dark continent”?What?Is Lucas now Rudyard Kipling?And we still are waiting to see proof of Lucas Smith, famed convicted felon, ever visited Africa…

    I’m wondering if the subsequent discovery of the ferocious cryptozoological specimen wasn’t also forged by Mr. Smith.

  104. avatar
    y_p_w April 12, 2011 at 1:57 am #

    Keith:

    On the other hand, y_p_w reported seeing a report prepared that already had the signature on the pre-printed form’. This speaks to another level of security, one where the signature printer is secured, perhaps in a different part of the building altogether. It is conceivable that that secure printer would be used for other documents as well, perhaps checks or whatever.

    I took a close look at those BCs I referenced. I can’t be sure exactly what would be delivered from the security paper supplier, but I could tell what parts weren’t using toner.

    It was pretty easy to tell what black areas are toner and what parts were produced via offset printing when I shined a light from the back. The offset printed areas show more light and look different.

    As an example, here’s a scan of an informational copy of Michael Jackson’s death certificate. This is the standard engraved border form used in California, although I noted there are slight variations.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Michael_Jackson_death_certificate.jpg

    What I saw in our docs was that the government agency listed at the top was obviously not toner. The seal in the lower right corner was also offset printed. The mention about “true certified copy”, etc with the names of the registrar and/or health director were also offset printed. I had one where the only signature was offset printed, while the other had two signatures, where one was laser printed (probably during the clerk’s print run) while the other one was offset printed.

    I’m thinking perhaps they get them delivered from the manufacturer and perhaps have an in-house printing service that adds more standard text and/or signatures. It’s probably up to the agency to decide how they want to deal with it. I noted that I found one document where only one certification signature was laser printed. The Los Angeles County Dept of Health Services specifies the registrar’s signature will be in purple ink (looks like a stamp). This looks different than the Suri Cruise informational BC (from 2006) that has been floating around. That one uses the seal of the county in the lower right corner, while the MJ death certificate uses the seal of the county health dept.

  105. avatar
    dobcn April 12, 2011 at 2:19 am #

    What’s frustrating to me is how in discussions birthers are allowed to frame the argument around his birth certificate. It’s a clever diversion from the fact that they have absolutely nothing to work with in terms of where else he could have been born if not Hawaii. So, they make it sound like Obama’s not being transparent and the reasonable thing to do would be to put it to rest. Rather than this: Obama couldn’t have been born anywhere that Stanley Ann wasn’t, and if there’s no record of her using her leaving Hawaii at the time he was born, then he had to have been born there.

  106. avatar
    The Magic M April 12, 2011 at 4:26 am #

    > It’s a clever diversion from the fact that they have absolutely nothing to work with in terms of where else he could have been born if not Hawaii.

    Remember not all birthers think Obama is hiding a foreign birth. Some think he is “only” hiding “something embarrassing” that might repel his voters.

    Though I still can’t fathom what they are thinking about – a Hawaiian BC would not state the baby’s religion (in case they were thinking “Religion: Muslim” would shy voters away) nor would a different or unknown father have much effect on the voters.

  107. avatar
    The Magic M April 12, 2011 at 4:31 am #

    > Box 3: Whether he was a twin or triplet

    Now that would make a great Hollywood Birther movie – the evil Muslim Marxist Nazi twin Barack Hussein Obama taking over the identity of the All-American Republican Patriot twin John Boy Obama (the one who actually went to Occidental and Harvard and was elected President) on Inauguration Day. Or summin’ like that.

    (Hey, it would even explain the botched Oath of Office – it was all a trick, John Boy was swapped for Barack Hussein who then took the Oath the second time. Oops, I’ll be off to the next birfer site after I’ve finished the script… ;))

  108. avatar
    Bob April 12, 2011 at 8:53 am #

    Today, I see that the Freepers have abandoned Trump and that DrKate has abandoned Lucas D. Smut.

    How sad.

  109. avatar
    obsolete April 12, 2011 at 11:27 am #

    Any links, Bob? I love to taste sweet birther tears!

  110. avatar
    J. Loleczek April 12, 2011 at 12:27 pm #

    “So I find it hard to imagine where the scandal could come in those pieces of information”

    Right. So Obama should put an end to this ASAP, man up, and show the damn birth certificate. Unless…………….., come to think of it, Name of Father should be on your list.
    Just saying. I don’t know. I could be wrong. Educate us and show the BC. Why not? What simple reason does he have to NOT showing it? When he doesn’t show it it is a natural assumption to believe that he is hiding something. To non-birthers – if you do not admit that you now REALLY want to see it, then you are lying to yourselves and are as delusional as the birthers.
    I personally want to see it and I personally regard Obama’s desire to hide it as an affront to this nation. I respect him less because of it. After all, he works for us, not the other way around.

  111. avatar
    Bovril April 12, 2011 at 12:42 pm #

    Ahhhh, The Pest and Offal has thrown Caribou Barbie aside. “One Pissed of Vietnam Vet” asks..

    Why is Sarah Palin STILL in the News?

    (Fecking good question but unexpected from a Birfoon)

    http://www.thepostemail.com/2011/04/12/why-is-sarah-palin-still-in-the-news/

    she’s burned too many bridges to be anything other than a discarded has-been, a sad case of waiting in the wings hoping beyond hope that the front-runners will stumble and fall and she’ll be resurrected as a Miss Liberty Phoenix

    Please don’t embarrass us by embarrassing yourself; just pack your bags and fade away forever, thank you.

    Ahhh, the taste of Birfoon rage when their idols turn out to be both imaginary AND have feet of clay……..

  112. avatar
    gorefan April 12, 2011 at 12:51 pm #

    J. Loleczek: Educate us and show the BC. Why not? What simple reason does he have to NOT showing it?

    Because he already has shown his Hawaiian BC. If you don’t like call Hawaii and have them change their BC format to one that meets your approval.

  113. avatar
    Scientist April 12, 2011 at 12:56 pm #

    J. Loleczek: Right. So Obama should put an end to this ASAP, man up, and show the damn birth certificate

    He’s shown his birth certificate. Are you saying a “damn birth certificate” is different from a plain old birth certificate? Are we now requiring “damn birth certificates”?

    J. Loleczek: I could be wrong

    Really? Could?

  114. avatar
    J. Loleczek April 12, 2011 at 1:07 pm #

    To gorefan and Scientist.

    You know very well the birth certificate I’m talking about.

    Look. Simple fact. Obama is the ONLY one who can stop this.
    It has gained momentum and it will never end.

    I say this whole controversy begins and ends with Obama reluctance to
    accommodate his critics. I know, I know what you’ll say: “he is the President, so there”.
    That’s for the schoolyard.

    Why he doesn’t want this to end is a mystery.
    Who doesn’t like a good mystery?
    Show the BC and be done with it.

  115. avatar
    Scientist April 12, 2011 at 1:15 pm #

    J. Loleczek: You know very well the birth certificate I’m talking about.

    No i don’t. Please explain preciisely what you are looking for. He has released the only birth certificate issued by the State of Hawaii. It looks excatly like the ones that all the members of my family have. if you asked us to get different ones, i wouldn’t know where to start, The President does not control what Hawaii puts on their birth certificates. Where in the Constitution does the power of the President include dictating too states whhat to put on their documents?

  116. avatar
    gorefan April 12, 2011 at 1:27 pm #

    J. Loleczek: Show the BC and be done with it.

    You are not interested in a good mystery, you are looking for good gossip.

    Let’s play a game.

    We will use the Nordyke’s BC as a template. Let’s erase all of the Nordyke information and insert President Obama’s information. I’ll fill in only three of the boxes based on the COLB.

    The name – Barack Obama, the date of birth – August 4, 1961 and the place of birth – Honolulu, Hawaii.

    You can fill in all the other boxes with whatever information you want. Guess what, no matter what you put in your boxes, no matter how derogatory or salacious, he is still eligible to be President of the United States.

  117. avatar
    J. Loleczek April 12, 2011 at 1:28 pm #

    Scientist say: “No i don’t. Please explain preciisely what you are looking for”

    Scientist, perhaps you should reread the article “what’s he hiding” that Dr. Conspiracy has posted and the VERY article that you are posting comments to.

    Simply stated: “This idea that there is something on Obama’s hospital birth certificate that he doesn’t want anyone to see is curious”

    His words, not mine.

    With regards to the Hospital Birth Certificate,
    Dr. Conspiracy gave several examples of what might be shown in addition to the COLB information and I added one more: Name of Father.

    I’m curious.

  118. avatar
    Sean April 12, 2011 at 1:29 pm #

    J. Loleczek:

    Look.Simple fact.Obama is the ONLY one who can stop this.

    Not true. Birthers will either split hairs on the Dr.s signature, or they’ll just call it a fake. Then they’ll find something else they can beat a drum about.

    J. Loleczek:

    It has gained momentum and it will never end.

    Very True.

    J. Loleczek:
    I say this whole controversy begins and ends with Obama reluctance to
    accommodate his critics.

    You don’t accommodate birthers. They’re not interested in evidence or truth. They’ve made that very clear. They want that Black man out of the White House.

  119. avatar
    J. Loleczek April 12, 2011 at 1:36 pm #

    gorefan say: “You can fill in all the other boxes with whatever information you want. Guess what, no matter what you put in your boxes, no matter how derogatory or salacious, he is still eligible to be President of the United States.”

    When did I ever say he was not eligible to be President of the United States?
    Is that what you really are afraid of? That there might be something on the HBC (hospital birth certificate) that might prove him to not be eligible?
    Interesting. Now I even more curious. What could it be?

    If I wanted an eligibility issue I wouldn’t mention the birth certificate.
    I would question the dual nationality of Barack Sr. and the “natural born citizen” clause in the constitution.

    I don’t know enough about both sides of the issue to make an informed opinion.

    Right now I’m just “curious” as to what is on the HBC.

  120. avatar
    gorefan April 12, 2011 at 1:37 pm #

    J. Loleczek: Name of Father.

    Name of father is listed on the COLB. That information is taken directly from the vital record.

  121. avatar
    Sean April 12, 2011 at 1:38 pm #

    J. Loleczek:

    Simply stated:“This idea that there is something on Obama’s hospital birth certificate that he doesn’t want anyone to see is curious”

    His words, not mine.

    Read that again but slower this time. The IDEA is curious. Meaning the idea birthers fantasize about some scandal being on that BC is curious.

    J. Loleczek:

    I added one more:Name of Father.

    And how would that change anything?

  122. avatar
    Scientist April 12, 2011 at 1:39 pm #

    J. Loleczek: With regards to the Hospital Birth Certificate,
    Dr. Conspiracy gave several examples of what might be shown in addition to the COLB information and I added one more: Name of Father

    His father’s name is on the COLB> It is Barack Hussein Obama

    http://msgboard.snopes.com/politics/graphics/birth.jpg

    But beyond that, the State of Hawaiii does not release the original birth certifiicate. It remains in their archives. They don’t even allow you to photocopy it. This is not my decision,, nor Obama’s, it’s the State of Hawaii’s. Your beef is not with obama, nor with me or anyone else here, but with the State of hawaii. Go there and fight with them, but leave us alone here.

  123. avatar
    gorefan April 12, 2011 at 1:40 pm #

    J. Loleczek: That there might be something on the HBC (hospital birth certificate) that might prove him to not be eligible?

    No guy, you don’t get it, there is nothing on the BC that could possibly make him ineligible. Like I said you are just interested in gossip.

    Go read the Globe magazine.

  124. avatar
    Hawaiiborn April 12, 2011 at 1:40 pm #

    J. Loleczek:
    To gorefan and Scientist.

    You know very well the birth certificate I’m talking about.

    oh the one that he has posted and has been double checked by FactCheck.org ? that one? Cause that is the only one he has .

    Funny thing about pieces of paper that originally never belonged to you. They get lost. So what do you do when you lose things? You go to the authority to ask for duplicates. so you have to rely on that authority to provide you with a copy. YOU have no control over that authority as to how they give you that copy, but you get a duplicate made based on their rules and their laws governing it

    Ever lost your Drivers License?

    In the span of the 18 years that I've been driving, Hawaii changed the layout, the texture, the materials that their Drivers License appears on, 7 times. That's almost every 2.5 years they changed their format as technology advanced.

    My DL back in 1991 LOOKS completely different than my DL that I got in 2006. And 2011 DL's from HAwaii, looks different than the DL from 2006

    Things change. RULES change. join us in 2011 will ya

  125. avatar
    sponson April 12, 2011 at 1:43 pm #

    I believe that the President simultaneously has the right to request that his “original birth certificate,” a dead archival document with no legal force be released, and that also he chooses not to. I do not believe it is because he has anything to hide. I can name one simple reason that would immediately trump any cries from people fishing for a scandal. Were he to bow to demands from people that insist that only his “original birth certificate” were sufficient, he would be undermining the validity of thousands and thousands of birth certificates of living Hawaiians, and also Americans in other states who have gone to a modern system of issuing birth certificates. Again, that alone is sufficient reason to ignore the calls for his “original birth certiicate” to be released. It’s a solid, valid reason.

  126. avatar
    J. Loleczek April 12, 2011 at 1:43 pm #

    To gorefan, Scientist and Sean:

    Open your minds. Stop having knee jerk reactions to these questions.
    Stop saying “They want that Black man out of the white house”.

    Simple test. Replace “Obama not wanting to show his BC” with “Bush not wanting to show his birth certificate”.

    Now how do you feel about it?

    Right. You are very curious. No?

  127. avatar
    JoZeppy April 12, 2011 at 1:47 pm #

    J. Loleczek: When did I ever say he was not eligible to be President of the United States?
    Is that what you really are afraid of? That there might be something on the HBC (hospital birth certificate) that might prove him to not be eligible?
    Interesting. Now I even more curious. What could it be?

    Let’s see….location of birth: Hawaii….

    Names of his father and mother on the birth COLB, and neither is a diplomat, so, nope. Nothing on there that could make him not be eligible.

    J. Loleczek: If I wanted an eligibility issue I wouldn’t mention the birth certificate.
    I would question the dual nationality of Barack Sr. and the “natural born citizen” clause in the constitution

    You can question it all you want, but there is nothing in the law to even hint that a dual citizenship/nationality has any impact on being a natural born citizen, and precident that a dual citizen can be a natural born citizen.

  128. avatar
    JoZeppy April 12, 2011 at 1:49 pm #

    J. Loleczek: Simple test. Replace “Obama not wanting to show his BC” with “Bush not wanting to show his birth certificate”.

    Difference being neither Bush ever did, and Obama has.

    J. Loleczek: Now how do you feel about it?

    And I’m still fine with it.

    J. Loleczek: Right. You are very curious. No?

    Nope. Just like with President Obama, all evidence points to them being born in the US, so why do I need to see it?

  129. avatar
    Sean April 12, 2011 at 1:50 pm #

    J. Loleczek:
    To gorefan, Scientist and Sean:

    Open your minds.Stop having knee jerk reactions to these questions.
    Stop saying “They want that Black man out of the white house”.

    Simple test.Replace “Obama not wanting to show his BC” with “Bush not wanting to show his birth certificate”.

    Now how do you feel about it?

    Right.You are very curious.No?

    Emma Watson still refuses to show her nipples.

    What do you think she’s hiding?

  130. avatar
    Scientist April 12, 2011 at 1:51 pm #

    J. Loleczek: Simple test. Replace “Obama not wanting to show his BC” with “Bush not wanting to show his birth certificate”.

    When did Bush show his birth certificate?

    J. Loleczek: Now how do you feel about it?
    Right. You are very curious. No?

    No.

    sponson: I believe that the President simultaneously has the right to request that his “original birth certificate,” a dead archival document with no legal force be released

    You can believe what you want and he can request what he wants. The AG of Hawaii says they DO NOT release original birth certificates. They are the final authority in the matter, not you, me or the President.

  131. avatar
    Majority Will April 12, 2011 at 1:53 pm #

    J. Loleczek: I’m curious.

    It’s NOYFB.

    You had and have no intention for voting for the President.

    Your sense of outrage, entitlement and curiosity for imagined political dirt is irrelevant, pathetic and laughable.

    Affront to the nation? Thank you, Miss Melodrama.

    Unless you, an anonymous birther troll with zero credibility, are the father and you have credible evidence, I’ll stick with the relevant, official information from the legal authority of the state of Hawaii.

    “I would question the dual nationality of Barack Sr. and the “natural born citizen” clause in the constitution.”

    Your amateurish legal opinion is erroneous, immaterial and inconsequential.

  132. avatar
    misha April 12, 2011 at 1:54 pm #

    J. Loleczek: You know very well the birth certificate I’m talking about.

    I agree with you. I think I found the birth certificate you are talking about.

    Thanks for visiting.

  133. avatar
    Obsolete April 12, 2011 at 1:54 pm #

    J. Loleczek:

    Simply stated:“This idea that there is something on Obama’s hospital birth certificate that he doesn’t want anyone to see is curious”

    Once again, birthers show a stunning lack of reading comprehension skills. It is the great unifying birther trait, even more so than racism.

  134. avatar
    J. Loleczek April 12, 2011 at 1:55 pm #

    Well this was fun but there is no real chance of intelligently addressing this issue here.
    What issue? That it is indeed “curious” as to why he won’t release the hospital birth certificate.

    I’m going to pick up the Globe today and see if I can find more juicy gossip.
    Thanks for the tip.

  135. avatar
    Scientist April 12, 2011 at 1:57 pm #

    J. Loleczek: Well this was fun but there is no real chance of intelligently addressing this issue here.
    What issue? That it is indeed “curious” as to why he won’t release the hospital birth certificate.

    Hawaii doesn’t release the hospital birth certificate. Come back when you learn to read.

  136. avatar
    Obsolete April 12, 2011 at 2:00 pm #

    Shorter birther: why won’t anyone answer my questions over and over again? Why won’t the President give me some sort of dirt to use against him?

  137. avatar
    Scientist April 12, 2011 at 2:02 pm #

    I doubt the ignorant boob Loleczek can read, but just in case, here is the official policy of Hawaii:

    “But Wisch, the spokesman for the attorney general’s office, said state law does not in fact permit the release of “vital records,” including an original “record of live birth” — even to the individual whose birth it records.

    “It’s a Department of Health record and it can’t be released to anybody,” he said. Nor do state laws have any provision that authorizes such records to be photocopied, Wisch said. If Obama wanted to personally visit the state health department, he would be permitted to inspect his birth record, Wisch said.

    But if he or anybody else wanted a copy of their birth records, they would be told to fill out the appropriate state form and receive back the same computer generated “certification of live birth” form that everybody else gets — which is exactly what Obama did four years ago.

  138. avatar
    Sean April 12, 2011 at 2:06 pm #

    J. Loleczek:
    Well this was fun but there is no real chance of intelligently addressing this issue here.
    What issue?That it is indeed “curious” as to why he won’t release the hospital birth certificate.

    I’m going to pick up the Globe today and see if I can find more juicy gossip.
    Thanks for the tip.

    Maybe you’ll find Bush’s birth certificate in there.

  139. avatar
    J. Loleczek April 12, 2011 at 2:11 pm #

    OK I said I would leave.
    But Scientist said: “I doubt the ignorant boob Loleczek can read, but just in case, here is the official policy of Hawaii:”

    First, I never, in any of my posts, said anything about Hawaii or having Hawaii release the BC. I don’t care about Hawaii or their rules.

    Second, I was responding to Dr. Conspiracy’s article “What’s he hiding?” in which Dr. Conspiracy himself said that “the idea” that there was something on it that he didn’t want people to see was “curious”.

    Third, I said that Obama was the ONLY person who could put an end to it.
    Not Hawaii, not the birthers, not anyone, only Obama.

    Now I’m a boob, can’t read, ignorant, and what not for also being “curious”.

    Whatever. Enjoy your conspiracy site.

  140. avatar
    richCares April 12, 2011 at 2:13 pm #

    I recently visited my family in Hawaii and told them about Birtherism, they laughed, thought I was joking. My niece said “…strange that after Obama released his Birth Certificate, they still demanded he release it, are birthers required to have a lobotomy?”
    I said no, they just make stuff up, they are driven by hate.

  141. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 12, 2011 at 2:15 pm #

    Joey: Wouldn’t “amended” then need to be on the COLB?

    By law it would have to say “ALTERED.”

  142. avatar
    Scientist April 12, 2011 at 2:17 pm #

    J. Loleczek: First, I never, in any of my posts, said anything about Hawaii or having Hawaii release the BC. I don’t care about Hawaii or their rules.

    J. Loleczek: Third, I said that Obama was the ONLY person who could put an end to it.
    Not Hawaii, not the birthers, not anyone, only Obama.

    Explain how Obama can release a document that is in the custody of the State of Hawaii. Are you proposing he break into the DOH offices and grab his b.c. and run? Is that what you are proposing? Please answer.

    You are a boob and illiterate because you keep repeating nonsense even when the plain facts are presented to you

  143. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 12, 2011 at 2:25 pm #

    J. Loleczek: Third, I said that Obama was the ONLY person who could put an end to it.
    Not Hawaii, not the birthers, not anyone, only Obama.

    Now I’m a boob, can’t read, ignorant, and what not for also being “curious”.

    Given that there were already reports in 2009 that Obama was creating the perfect forgery of his long-form birth certificate and the existing COLB is called a fake all the time, I don’t think that him releasing the hospital birth certificate would make any difference in the big scheme of things.

    Let’s say you had two cans of liquid, one labeled “Can 1 – some stuff” and another labeled “Can 2 – very much like the stuff in Can 1”. Now say you had a fire and you decided to dump Can 1 onto the fire to put it out. The fire gets hotter. Do you try Can 2? Probably not. Now put the COLB in the place of Can 1 and the Hospital version in the place of Can 2 and perhaps you can understand how a long-form birth certificate doesn’t help.

  144. avatar
    J. Loleczek April 12, 2011 at 2:26 pm #

    “Explain how Obama can release a document that is in the custody of the State of Hawaii. Are you proposing he break into the DOH offices and grab his b.c. and run? Is that what you are proposing? Please answer. ”

    OK, I’ll try to answer.

    1) He can release it because he is the President?
    2) Actually the above should cover it.

    I’m going out on a limb here because I really don’t know how I came across this or where,
    or why I remember it.

    Didn’t Obama say, in one of his books like DOMF, that he happened to come across his birth certificate? Maybe someone was paraphrasing him but I remember him saying that he opened up a book and there was the birth certificate. If this is true, then he has a copy in his possession.

    Could someone answer this or am I completely wrong?

  145. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 12, 2011 at 2:27 pm #

    sponson: I believe that the President simultaneously has the right to request that his “original birth certificate,” a dead archival document with no legal force be released, and that also he chooses not to. I do not believe it is because he has anything to hide. I can name one simple reason that would immediately trump any cries from people fishing for a scandal. Were he to bow to demands from people that insist that only his “original birth certificate” were sufficient, he would be undermining the validity of thousands and thousands of birth certificates of living Hawaiians, and also Americans in other states who have gone to a modern system of issuing birth certificates. Again, that alone is sufficient reason to ignore the calls for his “original birth certiicate” to be released. It’s a solid, valid reason.

    The whole scenario reminds me of the movie the Contender. Has anyone seen it? It was a great movie with Jeff Bridges, Joan Allen, Gary Oldman, Sam Elliot, and Christian Slater. Jeff Bridges plays the President and in it his VP has just died unexpectedly. He goes about trying to name a new VP to be confirmed by the House. He picks a woman Senator. Apart of the vetting process they go about digging into her past and a supposed incident in a frat house where she took part in an orgy came out. They asked multiple questions of her and the whole time she refused to answer any of the questions. Anyway come to find out it wasn’t her. The President near the end asks her for the truth and why she didn’t answer the questions and clear her name. She replies along the lines of If she dignified the questions with a response that means that somehow it was right to ask the questions in the first place. “Principles only mean something if you stick by them when they’re inconvenient”.

    This is what it all reminds me of. Obama is under no obligation to answer stupid questions.

  146. avatar
    Hawaiiborn April 12, 2011 at 2:29 pm #

    OK, I’ll try to answer.

    1)He can release it because he is the President?
    2)Actually the above should cover it.

    quoting is not difficult to do . Please use the tags accordingly

    1) Just because he’s the president, HE isn’t above the law.

    2) Actually #1 should cover it

  147. avatar
    Hawaiiborn April 12, 2011 at 2:30 pm #

    Didn’t Obama say, in one of his books like DOMF, that he happened to come across his birth certificate?Maybe someone was paraphrasing him but I remember him saying that he opened up a book and there was the birth certificate.If this is true, then he has a copy in his possession.

    Could someone answer this or am I completely wrong?

    Actually we dont know what he saw. He could have seen something that RESEMBLES a birth certificate, but it might simply have been a Hospital souvenir his mother / father received.

    We don’t know.

    And how long ago was this when he saw it? When he was a teenager? A young adult ready to go to College? In that time frame, things GET LOST.

  148. avatar
    JoZeppy April 12, 2011 at 2:33 pm #

    J. Loleczek: Well this was fun but there is no real chance of intelligently addressing this issue here.What issue? That it is indeed “curious” as to why he won’t release the hospital birth certificate. I’m going to pick up the Globe today and see if I can find more juicy gossip.Thanks for the tip.

    You see, you hit the nail right on the head. “what issue?” Perhaps he won’t release the hospital birth certificate because it’s not in his possession? He already released the one document he has, which is more than any president has before him. Don’t you find it “curious” that no other president has ever released a birth certificate?

  149. avatar
    Scientist April 12, 2011 at 2:33 pm #

    J. Loleczek: ) He can release it because he is the President?

    The President has no authority over the records of the State of Hawaii. Can you cite where in the Constitution he has such power?

    J. Loleczek: Didn’t Obama say, in one of his books like DOMF, that he happened to come across his birth certificate? Maybe someone was paraphrasing him but I remember him saying that he opened up a book and there was the birth certificate. If this is true, then he has a copy in his possession.
    Could someone answer this or am I completely wrong?

    Have you ever lost something? What would you do if you lost your driver’s license? Does that mean you can never driive again or would you call DMV and get a new one?

  150. avatar
    JoZeppy April 12, 2011 at 2:36 pm #

    J. Loleczek: OK, I’ll try to answer.
    1) He can release it because he is the President?
    2) Actually the above should cover it.

    Perhaps you should look into this novel thing we have called laws. And that thing called a Consitution might help. Focus in particular on that 10th Amendment, and it might be particularly helpful.

    J. Loleczek: I’m going out on a limb here because I really don’t know how I came across this or where,
    or why I remember it.
    Didn’t Obama say, in one of his books like DOMF, that he happened to come across his birth certificate? Maybe someone was paraphrasing him but I remember him saying that he opened up a book and there was the birth certificate. If this is true, then he has a copy in his possession.

    You might want to go back and see when he said he came across it. If I recall correctly it was while he was in high school. Now think back to all the little pieces of paper you have lost in the past 30 years.

    Is it entirely unreasonable to say that perhaps he misplaced a document that his stumbled across tucked away in the pages of a book at his mom’s house?

  151. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 12, 2011 at 2:37 pm #

    J. Loleczek: To gorefan, Scientist and Sean:Open your minds. Stop having knee jerk reactions to these questions.Stop saying “They want that Black man out of the white house”.Simple test. Replace “Obama not wanting to show his BC” with “Bush not wanting to show his birth certificate”.Now how do you feel about it?Right. You are very curious. No?

    Bush never released his birth certificate nor showed it. I didn’t care when he didn’t release it.

  152. avatar
    Joey April 12, 2011 at 2:38 pm #

    J. Loleczek:
    “Explain how Obama can release a document that is in the custody of the State of Hawaii. Are you proposing he break into the DOH offices and grab his b.c. and run? Is that what you are proposing? Please answer. ”

    OK, I’ll try to answer.

    1)He can release it because he is the President?
    2)Actually the above should cover it.

    I’m going out on a limb here because I really don’t know how I came across this or where,
    or why I remember it.

    Didn’t Obama say, in one of his books like DOMF, that he happened to come across his birth certificate?Maybe someone was paraphrasing him but I remember him saying that he opened up a book and there was the birth certificate.If this is true, then he has a copy in his possession.

    Could someone answer this or am I completely wrong?

    On Page 26 of “Dreams of My Father”, Obama writes:

    “I discovered this article, folded away among my birth certificate and old vaccination forms, when I was in high school,”

    Just because he saw his birth certificate in the late 1970’s or early 1980’s doesn’t mean that it is still in his possession today.
    I remember my original birth certificate but I have no idea where it is today. I’ve used a computer print out birth certificate since my first passport was issued 30 years ago.

  153. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 12, 2011 at 2:39 pm #

    J. Loleczek: Right. You are very curious. No?

    No. Why should I be curious about Bush’s birth certificate? Everybody knows he wasn’t really born in Texas.

  154. avatar
    J. Loleczek April 12, 2011 at 2:40 pm #

    Just an observation:

    Everyone here behaves like soldier bees protecting the hive from invasion.

    No real discussion.

  155. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 12, 2011 at 2:40 pm #

    J. Loleczek: 1) He can release it because he is the President?
    2) Actually the above should cover it.

    You might want to go back to school and retake your civics class. The President does not have the power to order a state agency to do something he wants. This is a case where the 10th Amendment would actually apply

  156. avatar
    misha April 12, 2011 at 2:44 pm #

    J. Loleczek: Just an observation:

    Just an observation: no white man ever had to show his birth certificate.

  157. avatar
    Joey April 12, 2011 at 2:44 pm #

    I still want a Birther to explain to me why a Republican Governor who campaigned for Johm McCain and delivered one of Sarah Palin’s endorsement speeches at the Republican National Convention would lie and risk her future political career to support Barack Obama, a liberal Democrat.

    “You know, during the campaign of 2008, I was actually in the mainland campaigning for Sen. McCain. This issue kept coming up so much in the campaign, and again I think it’s one of those issues that is simply a distraction from the more critical issues that are facing the country. And so I had my health director, who is a physician by background, go personally view the birth certificate in the birth records of the Department of Health, and we issued a news release at that time saying that the president was, in fact, born at Kapi’olani Hospital in Honolulu, Hawaii. And that’s just a fact. And yet people continue to call up and e-mail and want to make it an issue. And I think it’s, again, a horrible distraction for the country by those people who continue this. … It’s been established. He was born here.”–Former Hawaii Governor Linda Lingle, May 2, 2010

  158. avatar
    Majority Will April 12, 2011 at 2:45 pm #

    J. Loleczek: Now I’m a boob, can’t read, ignorant, and what not for also being “curious”.

    Whatever. Enjoy your conspiracy site.

    You said, “I would question the dual nationality of Barack Sr. and the “natural born citizen” clause in the constitution.”

    Then why bother having a discussion over the validity of a state authorized, legal document?

    You made it abundantly clear that not only is that not possible but that you have a backup plan on the issue of eligibility.

    “I’m just curious” and having amateur, erroneous legal opinions is not someone looking for an “intelligent discussion.

    It’s another birther troll in a line of very similar birther trolls who foolishly believe and parrot endlessly from birther propaganda sites like WND, NewsMax and the Post & E-Mail.

    And It’s someone with airtight, ironclad confirmation biases motivated by hatred, fear and bigotry.

  159. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 12, 2011 at 2:45 pm #

    J. Loleczek: Dr. Conspiracy gave several examples of what might be shown in addition to the COLB information and I added one more: Name of Father.

    Given the law, the only thing that could be on the hospital birth certificate that would differ from the COLB and not trigger the ALTERED mark would be a blank father’s name. However, given that the mother was married and the child was given the husband’s name, I consider the probability of that vanishingly small.

  160. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 12, 2011 at 2:45 pm #

    J. Loleczek: Just an observation:Everyone here behaves like soldier bees protecting the hive from invasion.No real discussion.

    No everyone here has been very patient having to answer the same questions repeatedly over and over again for the last two years. You think this is us being hard on you? This is mild compared to the crap we’ve heard from birthers.

  161. avatar
    Majority Will April 12, 2011 at 2:46 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): You might want to go back to school and retake your civics class.The President does not have the power to order a state agency to do something he wants.This is a case where the 10th Amendment would actually apply

    As if a birther actually had respect for the law. HAH ! ! !

  162. avatar
    Sean April 12, 2011 at 2:46 pm #

    J. Loleczek:
    OK I said I would leave.
    But Scientist said:“I doubt the ignorant boob Loleczek can read, but just in case, here is the official policy of Hawaii:”

    First, I never, in any of my posts, said anything about Hawaii or having Hawaii release the BC.I don’t care about Hawaii or their rules.

    Second, I was responding to Dr. Conspiracy’s article “What’s he hiding?”in which Dr. Conspiracy himself said that “the idea” that there was something on it that he didn’t want people to see was “curious”.

    Third, I said that Obama was the ONLY person who could put an end to it.
    Not Hawaii, not the birthers, not anyone, only Obama.

    Now I’m a boob, can’t read, ignorant, and what not for also being “curious”.

    Whatever.Enjoy your conspiracy site.

    You still can’t read after I explained it out to you. Looks like you’ll have to stay after class again. (sigh!)

    The “idea” doc refers to is the idea that birthers imagine there is something on the original birth certificate that is worth hiding, not the idea that Obama’s trying to hide something.

  163. avatar
    Sef April 12, 2011 at 2:47 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: No. Why should I be curious about Bush’s birth certificate? Everybody knows he wasn’t really born in Texas.

    A better analogy would be matter (or even light) trying to escape from inside the event horizon of a black hole.

  164. avatar
    J. Loleczek April 12, 2011 at 2:49 pm #

    “The President does not have the power to order a state agency to do something he wants.”

    Get real.

    phone rings : “Hello state agency, this is President Obama”
    state agency: “Hello Mr. President what can I do for you”?
    Obama: “Well there’s this nutty conspiracy going around concerning my birth certificate and I would like you to publish it to put an end to it once and for all”
    state agency: “Oh sorry, no can do. Rules are rules you know. Wish I could help but I can’t”
    Obama: “OK then, thought I would try. If you change your mind would you get back to me”?
    state agency: “Sure thing. Bye”

  165. avatar
    Scientist April 12, 2011 at 2:49 pm #

    J. Loleczek: No real discussion

    what would you like to discuss? Are you prepared for a real back and forth? You know where you respond to what is posted?

  166. avatar
    Sef April 12, 2011 at 2:49 pm #

    Sef: A better analogy would be matter (or even light) trying to escape from inside the event horizon of a black hole.

    This was supposed to be a comment to J. Loleczek’s 1440 post.

  167. avatar
    JoZeppy April 12, 2011 at 2:52 pm #

    J. Loleczek: Just an observation:Everyone here behaves like soldier bees protecting the hive from invasion.No real discussion.

    Perhaps you should give us something worthwhile to discuss that hasn’t be said 1000 times before?

  168. avatar
    Sean April 12, 2011 at 2:52 pm #

    Hawaiiborn: Actually we dont know what he saw. He could have seen something that RESEMBLES a birth certificate, but it might simply have been a Hospital souvenir his mother / father received.

    We don’t know.

    And how long ago was this when he saw it? When he was a teenager? A young adult ready to go to College? In that time frame, things GET LOST.

    I have to order a new copy of my Social Security card every time I actually need it, which totals 4 times now. I just can’t seem to stop losing stuff!

  169. avatar
    Scientist April 12, 2011 at 2:56 pm #

    J. Loleczek: phone rings : “Hello state agency, this is President Obama”
    state agency: “Hello Mr. President what can I do for you”?
    Obama: “Well there’s this nutty conspiracy going around concerning my birth certificate and I would like you to publish it to put an end to it once and for all”
    state agency: “Oh sorry, no can do. Rules are rules you know. Wish I could help but I can’t”
    Obama: “OK then, thought I would try. If you change your mind would you get back to me”?
    state agency: “Sure thing. Bye”

    That may the first accurate thing you’ve said here

  170. avatar
    JoZeppy April 12, 2011 at 2:57 pm #

    J. Loleczek: “The President does not have the power to order a state agency to do something he wants.”Get real.phone rings : “Hello state agency, this is President Obama”state agency: “Hello Mr. President what can I do for you”?Obama: “Well there’s this nutty conspiracy going around concerning my birth certificate and I would like you to publish it to put an end to it once and for all”state agency: “Oh sorry, no can do. Rules are rules you know. Wish I could help but I can’t”Obama: “OK then, thought I would try. If you change your mind would you get back to me”?state agency: “Sure thing. Bye”

    Are you suggesting that the President abuse his power, violate the 10th Amendment, and pressure a state Governor to violate their laws and rules to accomodate a personal request?

  171. avatar
    Majority Will April 12, 2011 at 3:01 pm #

    J. Loleczek:
    Just an observation:

    Everyone here behaves like soldier bees protecting the hive from invasion.

    No real discussion.

    Many of the pro-birther, anti-Obama sites like the Free Republic, Post & E-Mail, Mario Apuzzo’s and Dr. Kate’s blog and many others are heavily censored.

    Even polite refutation with factual information and citations to sources are either screened and not published or quickly erased after they are posted. And the poster’s IP address is usually immediately banned to prevent any opposing views.

    Does that remind you of any of the censorship policies of any countries around the world?

    However, anti-Obama site owners like Mario Apuzzo frequent many discussions threads like this one and caaflog.com, for example, without being censored. He has posted a warning on his site that he will not allow dissenting opinions:

    “Please keep in mind this is a moderated blog. This is akin to a court setting and is not a wide open say anything you want, anytime you want, free speech zone like a soap box in a public square. If you want that type of forum you will have to go elsewhere.”

    See the hypocrisy?

  172. avatar
    Sean April 12, 2011 at 3:05 pm #

    J. Loleczek:
    Just an observation:

    Everyone here behaves like soldier bees protecting the hive from invasion.

    No real discussion.

    There’s plenty of discussion. You just keep getting burned with facts and logic.

    But let’s get down to brass tacks:

    -Obama released a standard issue birth certificate, birthers called it a fake or not a BC at all.

    -The State of Hawaii backs the BC up and that Obama was born in Hawaii. Birthers claim Hawaiian officials is lying or that it doesn’t matter if he was born in Hawaii.

    -Two newspapers recorded his birth which was sent by the Health Dept. Birthers say it was put in the paper the grandparents or the notices were simply faked.

    See the pattern here?

  173. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 12, 2011 at 3:06 pm #

    J. Loleczek: Right now I’m just “curious” as to what is on the HBC.

    Some time back, as an exercise, I looked into what the HBC might look like, and I was pretty well able to fill in all the blanks from public sources, except for the Doctor and Registrar’s names. Here’s the article:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/08/the-long-form-reconstructed/

  174. avatar
    Obsolete April 12, 2011 at 3:07 pm #

    J. Loleczek, I actually believe that if Obama wanted to put the personal effort into it, he just might get Hawaii to give him a photocopy of what they have on file.
    However, I don’t think he will bother for these reasons:
    1- He has already provided a legal COLB. He is not required to produce anything else.
    2- He is busy, and birtherism is barely on his radar. As far as he is concerned, for Congress, the Courts, and the public, the issue was settled with the COLB and the statements of Hawaiian officials.
    3- birthers accused his COLB of being a forgery the same day it was released. They also claim his Selective Service card is forged, as is his SS number. Do you think the same baseless accusations will happen if he releases a “long-form”? I sure do.
    4- how would releasing it quiet the Vatell birthers? It won’t.

    There is no birther that will change their mind and vote for him, so there is no upside to release anything else.

  175. avatar
    Majority Will April 12, 2011 at 3:07 pm #

    J. Loleczek:
    “The President does not have the power to order a state agency to do something he wants.”

    Get real.

    phone rings :“Hello state agency, this is President Obama”
    state agency:“Hello Mr. President what can I do for you”?
    Obama:“Well there’s this nutty conspiracy going around concerning my birth certificate and I would like you to publish it to put an end to it once and for all”
    state agency:“Oh sorry, no can do.Rules are rules you know.Wish I could help but I can’t”
    Obama:“OK then, thought I would try.If you change your mind would you get back to me”?
    state agency:“Sure thing.Bye”

    Why do you have such a blatant disrespect for the law? Or did you think the real world is a Fox drama like 24?

  176. avatar
    Sef April 12, 2011 at 3:09 pm #

    Obsolete: 1- He has already provided a legal COLB. He is not required to produce anything else.

    He was not even “required” to produce that.

  177. avatar
    Obsolete April 12, 2011 at 3:13 pm #

    Majority Will
    6 mins ago
    J. Loleczek:
    Just an observation:

    Everyone here behaves like soldier bees protecting the hive from invasion.

    No real discussion.

    Many of the pro-birther, anti-Obama sites like the Free Republic, Post & E-Mail, Mario Apuzzo’s and Dr. Kate’s blog and many others are heavily censored.

    Even polite refutation with factual information and citations to sources are either screened and not published or quickly erased after they are posted. And the poster’s IP address is usually immediately banned to prevent any opposing views.”

    Not only that, but it is the policy of the Post and E-Mail that they will not allow any post that refers to Obama as “President”.

    How funny- birthers say this site doesn’t allow open discussion, when it is among the only sites that do, just like they claim Obama hasn’t released his birth certificate, when he is the only President who has.

  178. avatar
    J. Loleczek April 12, 2011 at 3:15 pm #

    You know, everyone here is tired of defending Obama and his birth certificate and answering the same questions over and over and over.

    I get it.

    Every birther must also be tired of asking the same questions over and over.

    Obama is the ONLY person who can end this.

    In leaving, I’ll only say, like Dr. Conspiracy also said, it’s “curious” that he does not want to end this.

    Why? I have no idea what is behind his motivation.
    Is he hiding something? I have no idea.

    Should he show it? I believe so just so we can get on with important matters.

    Will he show it? My true feeling are that he won’t.

    Amen.

  179. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 12, 2011 at 3:17 pm #

    J. Loleczek: “The President does not have the power to order a state agency to do something he wants.”Get real.phone rings : “Hello state agency, this is President Obama”state agency: “Hello Mr. President what can I do for you”?Obama: “Well there’s this nutty conspiracy going around concerning my birth certificate and I would like you to publish it to put an end to it once and for all”state agency: “Oh sorry, no can do. Rules are rules you know. Wish I could help but I can’t”Obama: “OK then, thought I would try. If you change your mind would you get back to me”?state agency: “Sure thing. Bye”

    That’s not how it works. That is a violation of the powers reserved to the states and the federal government. The same rules that apply to you and me apply to the President.

  180. avatar
    elid April 12, 2011 at 3:19 pm #

    J. Loleczek:
    To gorefan, Scientist and Sean:

    Open your minds.Stop having knee jerk reactions to these questions.
    Stop saying “They want that Black man out of the white house”.

    Simple test.Replace “Obama not wanting to show his BC” with “Bush not wanting to show his birth certificate”.

    Now how do you feel about it?

    Right.You are very curious.No?

    Frankly, I care more about the composition of Donald Trump’s toupee than where, when, or to whom George W. Bush was born.

  181. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 12, 2011 at 3:21 pm #

    J. Loleczek: You know, everyone here is tired of defending Obama and his birth certificate and answering the same questions over and over and over.I get it.Every birther must also be tired of asking the same questions over and over.Obama is the ONLY person who can end this.In leaving, I’ll only say, like Dr. Conspiracy also said, it’s “curious” that he does not want to end this. Why? I have no idea what is behind his motivation.Is he hiding something? I have no idea. Should he show it? I believe so just so we can get on with important matters.Will he show it? My true feeling are that he won’t.Amen.

    He has shown his birth certificate. What would that change for you? You’ve already admitted you have a fall back plan saying he isn’t eligible because of his father’s citizenship. So why do you even want a super special birth certificate that isn’t the form Hawaii uses if it won’t make a difference to you

  182. avatar
    Scientist April 12, 2011 at 3:23 pm #

    J. Loleczek: Obama is the ONLY person who can end this.

    No, he isn’t.

    J. Loleczek: In leaving

    You have already said that several times and haven’t done so.

    J. Loleczek: Should he show it? I believe so just so we can get on with important matters.

    Are you saying that “other matters” haven’t been gotten on with? There has been no discussion of the economy, the wars,, health care, etc? No legislatiion has been passed since Jan 2009, right? Congress and the President have spent all of their time on the birth certificate, right?

    J. Loleczek: Will he show it? My true feeling are that he won’t

    You are right that he won’t. Because it’s in the custody of the State of Hawaii who will not release it even to the President, as is their right.

  183. avatar
    JoZeppy April 12, 2011 at 3:33 pm #

    J. Loleczek: You know, everyone here is tired of defending Obama and his birth certificate and answering the same questions over and over and over.
    I get it.

    Obviously you don’t.

    J. Loleczek: Every birther must also be tired of asking the same questions over and over.

    The difference being their questions have been answered. They have been shown to be 100% in the wrong. And they ignore the answers everyone keeps giving them. Look for ways to parse very clear statements to mean exactly the opposite of what their clear meaning is. Make things up as they go, totally mispresent the laws…etc., etc., You get the picture.

    J. Loleczek: Obama is the ONLY person who can end this.

    Perhaps only by locking the birthers up in their imaginary FEMA camps. Birthers have established a clear patteren of denying any hard evidence that conflicts with their position, and be free of the need of any actual evidence to support their positions.

    J. Loleczek: In leaving, I’ll only say, like Dr. Conspiracy also said, it’s “curious” that he does not want to end this.

    Nothing curious about it. Birthers have made it clear that they will never accept anything he produces. So why should he give them anything they want. If anything, having more than half of the Republican party be birthers helps in. If Republican candidates have to pander to the looney right, they will be less appealing to moderate indpendants. Helps come 2012.

    Sorry we scared you away. Don’t feel bad. Come tomorrow, a new concern troll will fill the void you left. They’ll claim not to be birthers, but only find it strange, or concerning, or suspicious of the fact that he doesn’t release a document he actually did release, or doesn’t release a document he has no control over, or how he doesn’t release the laundry list of irrelevant other documents no other President before him every released. They’ll stomp their fee that they’re not birthers, only concerned Americans, trying to make informed decisions when they vote, although they would never vote for him even if he was running unopposed for city dog catcher. You can see where this is going?

    If you really are concerened, take 5 minutes to actually look at the facts. That’s all it should take to realize that only one side has dealt with any facts at all, and the other is just rumour, speculation, innuendo, and flat out fabrication.

  184. avatar
    sponson April 12, 2011 at 3:33 pm #

    Scientist, the internet figure known as “Danae” seems to have convinced Hawaii to release to her a copy of her older, archival, not-valid original birth certificate document, and some people, include the good Dr. C, believe it and her story to be authentic. I do, also. It may be a minor point but I don’t understand why it’s necessary to believe that the President is somehow barred from obtaining a copy of the document that Dr. Fukino has seen several times recently in Hawaii’s archives. I think he chooses not to request a copy of it and I gave some reasons above that I think are sufficient. I endorse what I believe to be his reasoning, which is that it would be a very bad idea to undermine modern vital records systems at the insistence of a group of people who would not be satisfied with any particular document he released anyway.

  185. avatar
    Bovril April 12, 2011 at 3:38 pm #

    Sponson,

    Just to be accurate what Danae shows is NOT an original birth certificate, It is a compilation of some data records from the original vital records.

    It has no legal validity and would not stand up (other than at best as secondary source) in a court of law.

    Ever Birfoon in the world would scream FAKE!!!!! so why the feck should the President get one?

    Exactly what is it worth….Nothing
    Exactly what would it gain him……Nothing

    NOT ONE SINGLE BIRFOON WOULD CHANGE THEIR MIND, NOT ONE OF THEM DID OR WILL VOTE FOR OBAMA.

  186. avatar
    Scientist April 12, 2011 at 3:41 pm #

    sponson: Scientist, the internet figure known as “Danae” seems to have convinced Hawaii to release to her a copy of her older, archival, not-valid original birth certificate document, and some people, include the good Dr. C, believe it and her story to be authentic.

    With all due respect to you and the good Dr. C, we have an official statement from the office of the Attorney General of Hawaii that they do not release the original birthh certificate nor copies thereof. He was very clear. On the other side we have “Danae” and Miki Booth’s friend’s daughter”. My money is on the Mr Wisch as being a better source for the laws and practices of Hawaii state government than various anonymous internet screen names

  187. avatar
    Majority Will April 12, 2011 at 3:47 pm #

    J. Loleczek: SQUAWK

    You know, everyone here is tired of defending Obama and his birth certificate and answering the same questions over and over and over.

    Who is tired? Speak for yourself, birther troll. And keep generalizing. It reveals your true nature.

    I get it.

    You don’t have a clue.

    Every birther must also be tired of asking the same questions over and over.

    Obviously not. What’s your excuse? And isn’t asking the same question ad nauseam but expecting a different answer each time the definition of insanity?

    Obama is the ONLY person who can end this.

    End what? A fringe group of psychotic bigots who won’t vote for him from whining like mentally challenged, paranoid adolescents?

    Other than notifying the FBI and Secret Service of some the more seditious and violent birthers, why bother?

  188. avatar
    Sean April 12, 2011 at 3:48 pm #

    J. Loleczek:
    In leaving, I’ll only say, like Dr. Conspiracy also said, it’s “curious” that he does not want to end this.

    You just lied.

  189. avatar
    Reality Check April 12, 2011 at 4:07 pm #

    Sharon Rondeau just posted this at the PEE and EEE:

    (Apr. 12, 2011) — Miki Booth has just reported via telephone to The Post & Email that a man born and currently residing in Hawaii went to the Department of Health this morning and requested a copy of his long-form birth certificate. He was refused, told that it was no longer available and that all he could obtain is the short-form document.

    The man had obtained his short-form “Certificate of Live Birth” several weeks ago and reported to Miki that the request form had had two different boxes which could be checked: one indicating that the short-form was being requested and the other that the long-form was desired.

    Today, the man reported that the form has been changed such that that choice is no longer available.

    Therefore, when Dr. Chiyome Fukino spoke with MSNBC on Monday morning, she apparently was not lying when she said that long-form birth certificates are no longer available.

    http://www.thepostemail.com/2011/04/12/breaking-from-hawaii-no-more-long-form-birth-certificates/

  190. avatar
    JoZeppy April 12, 2011 at 4:13 pm #

    Scientist: With all due respect to you and the good Dr. C, we have an official statement from the office of the Attorney General of Hawaii that they do not release the original birthh certificate nor copies thereof. He was very clear. On the other side we have “Danae” and Miki Booth’s friend’s daughter”. My money is on the Mr Wisch as being a better source for the laws and practices of Hawaii state government than various anonymous internet screen names

    I’m not going to go so far as to say that it is impossible to talk some low level clerk from forking over an unofficial photocopy of a vital record with your name on it. I can understand that the state doesn’t issue official copies out of a simple question of keeping things simple, and cheap, but who is to say that someone couldn’t walk in and give a relatively compelling reason why you need a photo copy of the original?

  191. avatar
    misha April 12, 2011 at 4:13 pm #

    Reality Check: Today, the man reported that the form has been changed such that that choice is no longer available.

    Obama’s Chicago thugs got to them.

  192. avatar
    Thrifty April 12, 2011 at 4:26 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Maybe and maybe not. Some old certified copies of birth certificates are very much like today’s COLB only hand typed. See, for example, this certificate from 1991, which could have been hand typed or computer typed onto security paper a decade before the Department says they went “paperless.”
    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Peter_Boy_Certificate.pdf
    The individual on that certificate is deceased.

    Doc that is obviously a forgery. It says “Date Filed” instead of “Date Accepted”.

    Serious question though: Why does it say VOID all over it?

  193. avatar
    Tarrant April 12, 2011 at 4:30 pm #

    I don’t necessarily believe this P&E post – not that the form now doesn’t allow the option, but their claim that a few weeks ago the option was there given they have claimed for YEARS that they don’t give them out.

    We see this over and over with the birther meme – they want us to believe that a few weeks ago someone who KNEW HAWAII CLAIMED NOT TO GIVE THEM OUT was at their office, saw the forms that offered them, but…didn’t take one with them? The anecdote is less useful than the form would have been. Imagine how useful that form would have been! Lakin’s family mentioned he couldn’t get one for his kid…you’d think he’d have mentioned if the form said he could get one but they were refused.

    It’s like the “It’s so easy to get a born-in-Hawaii COLB without being born there, anyone can!” guys. Rather than say it’s easy, simply show a few – or get one. If it was that easy, they should be able to produce them. To date? Zero.

    Or for that matter the “I sent someone to Hawaii to take a picture of the birth index and Obama wasn’t listed there but oh shucks the camera broke/they didn’t know how to use it!” Each time that holy grail is within their grasp some miraculous/ridiculous/incredulous circumstance prevents them from getting it.

    All the sworn affidavits and anecdotes are less useful than one piece of hard evidence, which as of yet is lacking (unless one believe Lucas Smith’s oops-the-administrator-spelled-his-own-name-wrong-and-ignore-the-whole-date-format-thing BC).

  194. avatar
    Hawaiiborn April 12, 2011 at 4:49 pm #

    The man had obtained his short-form “Certificate of Live Birth” several weeks ago and reported to Miki that the request form had had two different boxes which could be checked:one indicating that the short-form was being requested and the other that the long-form was desired.

    Odd, I don’t see “two check boxes” for anything on the form I filled out in person:

    http://img202.imageshack.us/i/hawaiicolbform.jpg/

  195. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 12, 2011 at 4:57 pm #

    Hawaiiborn: Odd, I don’t see “two check boxes” for anything on the form I filled out in person:http://img202.imageshack.us/i/hawaiicolbform.jpg/

    You’d think this was an important piece of information the guy would have scanned and posted before sending it back

  196. avatar
    Scientist April 12, 2011 at 4:57 pm #

    JoZeppy: I’m not going to go so far as to say that it is impossible to talk some low level clerk from forking over an unofficial photocopy of a vital record with your name on it. I can understand that the state doesn’t issue official copies out of a simple question of keeping things simple, and cheap, but who is to say that someone couldn’t walk in and give a relatively compelling reason why you need a photo copy of the original?

    JoZep- Maybe you could, maybe you couldn’t. I was not born in Hawaii so i can’t do the experiment myself. Regardless, I think it would be absolutely inappropriate for the President of the United States (or a US Senator running for Presiident) to walk into the DOH and browbeat some low level clerk into violating the policy of the office. The President is constrained to go through official channels and the official channels say “No copies of original records”.

  197. avatar
    Hawaiiborn April 12, 2011 at 4:58 pm #

    I agree Tarrant.

    Funny, when I ordered my COLB in person when I was in Hawaii, I picked up an extra copy of the request forms, thinkgin “maybe, just maybe, I need to mail in a request at a later date” and “what if I screw up writing in my request, it’ll be good to have a back up copy”.

  198. avatar
    Hawaiiborn April 12, 2011 at 5:01 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): You’d think this was an important piece of information the guy would have scanned and posted before sending it back

    Yup and that’s why debunking these liars are so easy. That form would have just sat in my possession for years if it wasn’t for refuting the stupid claims from birthers. And I just wanted to use it as proof, of how one could request their Birth Record from Hawaii.

    funny how 2 years later, I could use to refute a baseless/evidence free claim so easily

  199. avatar
    JoZeppy April 12, 2011 at 5:11 pm #

    Scientist: JoZep- Maybe you could, maybe you couldn’t. I was not born in Hawaii so i can’t do the experiment myself. Regardless, I think it would be absolutely inappropriate for the President of the United States (or a US Senator running for Presiident) to walk into the DOH and browbeat some low level clerk into violating the policy of the office. The President is constrained to go through official channels and the official channels say “No copies of original records”.

    I totally agree with that. However, I’m just not willing to call others out as being dishonest with the facts I have. I do think it is particularly telling that despite all the birther whining about how simple it would be to just cut a check for $10 (or $20, or $25….again, since facts don’t interest them, they usually don’t bother to find out how much it actually does cost), and “just end the controversy” they have only been able to come up with a plain white photocopy (which, of course, they would never accept from the President), and a tiny scan of what they purport to be a copy on security paper of one recently obtained, of unknown origin. If it was so simple, you would think they would have been able to dig up multiple examples of exactly they expect the President to produce.

  200. avatar
    JoZeppy April 12, 2011 at 5:16 pm #

    Hawaiiborn: Odd, I don’t see “two check boxes” for anything on the form I filled out in person:http://img202.imageshack.us/i/hawaiicolbform.jpg/

    Equally odd is the form you filled out has been in use since 2005. hmmmmm

  201. avatar
    Scientist April 12, 2011 at 5:24 pm #

    JoZeppy: I totally agree with that. However, I’m just not willing to call others out as being dishonest with the facts I have. I do think it is particularly telling that despite all the birther whining about how simple it would be to just cut a check for $10 (or $20, or $25….again, since facts don’t interest them, they usually don’t bother to find out how much it actually does cost), and “just end the controversy” they have only been able to come up with a plain white photocopy (which, of course, they would never accept from the President), and a tiny scan of what they purport to be a copy on security paper of one recently obtained, of unknown origin. If it was so simple, you would think they would have been able to dig up multiple examples of exactly they expect the President to produce.

    Very telling for me is the failure of Terry Lakin to get one for his daughter. His brother has said that he tried and could not get one.

    As for ending the controversy, every controversy has 2 sides. it appears laws my make it difficullt or impossible for the President to release original birth records. However, no law constrains the birthers from ending the controversy. All they need do is:
    1. Drop all appeals of their “lawsuits” that remain alive.
    2. Promise to file no further suits.
    3. Take down all birther web siites.
    4. Stop making birther comments on the web, tallk radio and anywhere else.

    If they do that, I for one will be perfectly happy to never mention the issue again.

  202. avatar
    y_p_w April 12, 2011 at 5:24 pm #

    Hawaiiborn: Odd, I don’t see “two check boxes” for anything on the form I filled out in person:

    http://img202.imageshack.us/i/hawaiicolbform.jpg/

    That hasn’t changed.

    http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/pdf/birth.pdf

    The only thing that would get me is their policy on keeping all fees if no record is found. I know in California, if multiple copies are requested and no record is found, the city/county/state only keeps the cost of one BC and refunds the remainder, while issuing a “no record” document. I suggested that maybe Obama should just order up dozens (or up to a hundred) if they’re ever needed in the electoral process, although I doubt they would have an issue with “no record found” since he already has gotten his BC. I do get the impression that few people would order up dozens .

  203. avatar
    sponson April 12, 2011 at 6:03 pm #

    I enjoy the discussion of what the President’s options theoretically might be even though my position seems to be unpopular, since I contend that the President of the United States, if he felt it was necessary for political reasons, could probably find a way to get the old, non-valid, no-longer-a-lega-birth-certificate document, which we know exists, and has been seen by Dr. Fukino, to be made available to the public. If I were the President, who I am absolutely certain and satisfied was born in the United States, I still would not do so, for various reasons, most importantly because it would have a tendency to undermine the validity of modern vital records systems. I’m aware of the many statements by the Attorney General of Hawaii and others about the fact that if a person born in Hawaii requests a Birth Certificate these days, they will get a modern-style one from the State of Hawaii. Such a document is a 100% valid Birth Certificate for all legal purposes. I just happen to think that in addition, and separately, that if any State holds a non-classified, non-law-enforcement document about one of its citizens or former citizens, that the citizen in question could successfully request a copy.

  204. avatar
    Wile E. April 12, 2011 at 6:51 pm #

    Reality Check:
    Sharon Rondeau just posted this at the PEE and EEE:

    (Apr. 12, 2011) — Miki Booth has just reported via telephone to The Post & Email that a man born and currently residing in Hawaii went to the Department of Health this morning and requested a copy of his long-form birth certificate.He was refused, told that it was no longer available and that all he could obtain is the short-form document.


    The man had obtained his short-form “Certificate of Live Birth” several weeks ago and reported to Miki that the request form had had two different boxes which could be checked:one indicating that the short-form was being requested and the other that the long-form was desired.

    Today, the man reported that the form has been changed such that that choice is no longer available.

    Therefore, when Dr. Chiyome Fukino spoke with MSNBC on Monday morning, she apparently was not lying when she said that long-form birth certificates are no longer available.

    http://www.thepostemail.com/2011/04/12/breaking-from-hawaii-no-more-long-form-birth-certificates/

    I tried to post this to the P&E:
    ************
    “””The man had obtained his short-form “Certificate of Live Birth” several weeks ago and reported to Miki that the request form had had two different boxes which could be checked: one indicating that the short-form was being requested and the other that the long-form was desired.
    Today, the man reported that the form has been changed such that that choice is no longer available.”””

    Can you guys show me a form where an applicant has ever been able to choose between a “long” form or a “short” form?

    Here’s one from Hawai’i’s website which looks the same as I’ve ever seen it:
    http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/pdf/birth.pdf

    And here’s a scan of a hard copy :
    http://img202.imageshack.us/f/hawaiicolbform.jpg/

    I’d love to see an image of the two-box form. Maybe someone can help me out?
    ***********

    Apparently, just asking a couple of civil questions is enough to get someone “moderated off” of P&E.

  205. avatar
    G April 12, 2011 at 9:27 pm #

    Scientist: As for ending the controversy, every controversy has 2 sides. it appears laws my make it difficullt or impossible for the President to release original birth records. However, no law constrains the birthers from ending the controversy. All they need do is:
    1. Drop all appeals of their “lawsuits” that remain alive.
    2. Promise to file no further suits.
    3. Take down all birther web siites.
    4. Stop making birther comments on the web, tallk radio and anywhere else.
    If they do that, I for one will be perfectly happy to never mention the issue again.

    Agreed & well said!

  206. avatar
    Sean April 12, 2011 at 10:35 pm #

    Wile E.:
    Here’s one from Hawai’i’s website which looks the same as I’ve ever seen it:
    http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/pdf/birth.pdf

    And here’s a scan of a hard copy :
    http://img202.imageshack.us/f/hawaiicolbform.jpg/

    This one says it was revised in 2005. Did the guy go there before then?

  207. avatar
    Sef April 13, 2011 at 12:25 am #

    Sean: Wile E.:
    Here’s one from Hawai’i’s website which looks the same as I’ve ever seen it:
    http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/pdf/birth.pdf

    And here’s a scan of a hard copy :
    http://img202.imageshack.us/f/hawaiicolbform.jpg/

    This one says it was revised in 2005. Did the guy go there before then?

    I used the wayback machine and see that a different form was used in 2004 (Rev of 8/1/01). The major difference is that you select whether you want a certified copy or a verification. I see no check for long or short form. The form in 2007 is the 2005 version.

  208. avatar
    sponson April 13, 2011 at 1:03 am #

    I seriously doubt that once Hawaii instituted the new vital records system that anyone had a choice of requesting a “long form” vs. “short form” via a check box. I know nothing about Miki Booth, but as I was saying above I still think that with enough social engineering and careful maneuvering it is possible (or once was, before this high degree of publicity brought on Taitz and now Trump) for a person born in Hawaii to get a copy of their old, no-longer-valid, former birth certificate document. I still don’t see the need to insist that it was always an impossibility for a Presidential candidate or a sitting President to get a copy. I also see why Hawaii discourages such requests, they have very good reasons, but I believe that if push came to shove in a court, if a Hawaiian-born individual wanted such a document, they could get it.

  209. avatar
    G April 13, 2011 at 1:03 am #

    Sef: I used the wayback machine and see that a different form was used in 2004 (Rev of 8/1/01). The major difference is that you select whether you want a certified copy or a verification. I see no check for long or short form. The form in 2007 is the 2005 version.

    Kudos to all of you for your investigative work and examples here!

  210. avatar
    sponson April 13, 2011 at 1:57 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater, belatedly, I did see the film The Contender, and found it quite entertaining. I agree that the President is under no obligation to answer stupid questions about his birthplace, or demands for any particular document, and I’m going even further by opining that he does have the option to give critics or conspiracy theorists the desired “proof” they demand, and chooses not to do so. I applaud him for it.

  211. avatar
    Keith April 13, 2011 at 3:33 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: So Barack Obama had to have a birth certificate issued some time between August 8, 1961 and July 19, 1967

    It occurs to me that that BC may be physically in Indonesia today, sitting, forgotten, in an old suitcase under the bed of someone in the Soetoro family.

    On the other hand, given the humidity there, it may not have survived in a readable state this long.

  212. avatar
    Keith April 13, 2011 at 3:53 am #

    J. Loleczek: Simply stated: “This idea that there is something on Obama’s hospital birth certificate that he doesn’t want anyone to see is curious”

    His words, not mine.

    Yes, his words; your pretzel twist.

    Doc is saying, in plain, uncoded, untwisted English that the “idea that there is something on Obama’s hospital birth certificate that he doesn’t want anyone to see” is curious.

    He is not saying he is curious what is there, he is saying it is curious that the idea exists.

    Before you go too far off the deep end here, let me suggest that, as others have said, if you don’t want to be ridiculed, don’t be ridiculous.

  213. avatar
    Keith April 13, 2011 at 4:07 am #

    J. Loleczek: “The President does not have the power to order a state agency to do something he wants.”

    Get real.

    phone rings : “Hello state agency, this is President Obama”
    state agency: “Hello Mr. President what can I do for you”?
    Obama: “Well there’s this nutty conspiracy going around concerning my birth certificate and I would like you to publish it to put an end to it once and for all”
    state agency: “Oh sorry, no can do. Rules are rules you know. Wish I could help but I can’t”
    Obama: “OK then, thought I would try. If you change your mind would you get back to me”?
    state agency: “Sure thing. Bye”

    Are you running an illegal wire tap? Because that is exactly how such a conversation would go.

  214. avatar
    The Magic M April 13, 2011 at 5:05 am #

    > Simple test.Replace “Obama not wanting to show his BC” with “Bush not wanting to show his birth certificate”.
    > Now how do you feel about it?
    > Right.You are very curious.No?

    Well, why aren’t you birthers curious about the BC’s of all former presidents? I mean, it’s always been your contention that everything an “ineligible president” does and signs is null and void. So why is not a single one of you concerned what international treaties might be null and void (e.g. nuclear disarmament treaties with Russia), what court cases are null and void (because all judges appointed by all former presidents might have been “illegally” given their position), what wars would have been totally illegal etc.?

    This would be much more massive than “only” 2 years of the Obama presidency.

    Yet none of you seems to bother about Clinton’s BC or GWB’s BC or…

    So again it boils down to the question “why is only Obama’s BC relevant and the BC’s of all former presidents are irrelevant”, leading to “what is different about Obama in comparison with all former presidents”, inevitably leaving only the colour of his skin.

    And you wonder why you birthers are called racists if it’s so easy to logically deduce you are. ๐Ÿ˜‰

  215. avatar
    Wild Bill H April 13, 2011 at 11:29 am #

    Amusing that you use the birth announcement for his mothers address…especially without marriage certificate.

    And of course we know for a fact, beyond a shadow of a doubt who that Mrs. Obama was as cited in that announcement and of course, we also know – because we are all psychic that the ‘son’ was our POTUS. I’m not saying it wasn’t referring to Ann Dunham and little Barry – I’m saying it is not proof positive as much as you would like to wish is it.

    I think I’ll try that the next time I’m asked for ID. I’ll just say, oh, I’m Mrs. Bill, surely you know that because there was a newspaper announcement some 42 years ago when my son was born. It said Mr. & Mrs. Wild Bill of such and such address announce the birth of their son.

    And the next time my son is asked for ID, he can just use the same birth announcement and say, see – I’m THAT son. ๐Ÿ™‚

    I’m sure everyone will breathe a sigh of relief to then have proof of who we are and where we once lived.

    What is different about Obama that require We The People to ask for his BC are the questions that he himself have created about his birth circumstances. No hospital in Hawaii claims him, his family don’t seem to remember exactly which hospital it is that doesn’t claim him. I could go on and on, but I’m sure the post won’t allow that many characters.

    And besides, I thought Obama had already provided his BC….oh yeah, I guess that one finally got debunked!

    And personally, I think you are the racist for bringing the race card into the discussion. If McCain had somehow managed to win beyond everything he did to throw the election, I’d be wanting to see his BC too – because he is not a NBC either. The only BC I’ve seen for McCain is a forgery, so I have my doubts that he released it as some report. It wouldn’t have mattered who won – McCain or Obama – they are both ineligible to be POTUS – and McCain would have been a far worse POTUS than Obama has been. Yeah, I’m just so racist!

  216. avatar
    richCares April 13, 2011 at 12:01 pm #

    No hospital in Hawaii claims him, his family don’t seem to remember exactly which “hospital”
    repeating total bull pupu doesn’t maske it true, why don’t you check this false stry out, too lazy?

  217. avatar
    Scientist April 13, 2011 at 12:17 pm #

    Wild Bill H: Wild Bill H

    Isn’t interesting that on another site someone named “Sally Hill” posted your favorite story about having their birth announced in newspapers iin 3 separate cities-where their parents lived and in each of their home towns. Are you transgendered by any chance?

  218. avatar
    MaryMitch April 13, 2011 at 12:19 pm #

    richCares: No hospital in Hawaii claims him, his family don’t seem to remember exactly which “hospital”repeating total bull pupu doesn’t maske it true, why don’t you check this false stry out, too lazy?

    OK, I’m going to assume what you’re trying to say (do a spell check before you post again, will you?).

    There has never been a question by the family as to which hospital President Obama was born in. Never. There was an article in a high school paper that the writer made an assumption. He admitted it and apologized.

  219. avatar
    Rickey April 13, 2011 at 12:46 pm #

    Wild Bill H:
    No hospital in Hawaii claims him, his family don’t seem to remember exactly which hospital it is that doesn’t claim him.

    Continuing to repeat lies such as those does nothing to enhance your credibility.

  220. avatar
    JoZeppy April 13, 2011 at 1:14 pm #

    Wild Bill H: Amusing that you use the birth announcement for his mothers address…especially without marriage certificate.

    And how exactly would the marriage effect the President’s eligibility?

    Wild Bill H: And of course we know for a fact, beyond a shadow of a doubt who that Mrs. Obama was as cited in that announcement and of course, we also know – because we are all psychic that the son’ was our POTUS. I’m not saying it wasn’t referring to Ann Dunham and little Barry – I’m saying it is not proof positive as much as you would like to wish is it.

    Wow…you’re realling going of the rails here. So are you now suggesting you have evidence that the President’s mother wasn’t Stanely Ann Dunham? Well I suppose since birthers aren’t actually required to have any evidence before making looney statements, why stop there? Obama was actually born on the planet Krypton, and found by Ann Duhnam in a field, and she kept him to fill the void left after she sacrificed her real son to the volcano goddess Pele?

    Wild Bill H: think I’ll try that the next time I’m asked for ID. I’ll just say, oh, I’m Mrs. Bill, surely you know that because there was a newspaper announcement some 42 years ago when my son was born. It said Mr. & Mrs. Wild Bill of such and such address announce the birth of their son.
    And the next time my son is asked for ID, he can just use the same birth announcement and say, see – I’m THAT son.
    I’m sure everyone will breathe a sigh of relief to then have proof of who we are and where we once lived.

    No one here has ever claimed that the birth announcement was ID. Guess what, a birth certificate isn’t ID either. The BC is, however proof that he was born in the US, and the announcements corroborate that. That’s all. So far, you’re the only nut to come here and imply that Stanely Ann Dunham didn’t actually give birth to President Obama.

  221. avatar
    richCares April 13, 2011 at 1:18 pm #

    “OK, I’m going to assume what you’re trying to say”
    .
    you missed it, it was a comment by Wild Bill, my comment was “which ‘hospital’repeating total bull pupu doesn’t maske it true, why don’t you check this false stry out, too lazy?”,
    .
    sorry about stry, it should be story, you can snark my spelling but don’t snark me about Wild Bill’s comment, that I resent. My point was that it is a false story, OK!

  222. avatar
    JoZeppy April 13, 2011 at 1:22 pm #

    Wild Bill H: What is different about Obama that require We The People to ask for his BC are the questions that he himself have created about his birth circumstances. No hospital in Hawaii claims him, his family don’t seem to remember exactly which hospital it is that doesn’t claim him. I could go on and on, but I’m sure the post won’t allow that many characters.

    this point really frosts my wheaties. Hey birther…”We the People” refers to all of us. You don’t own that pharse, nor does your small minority get to dictate to the majority of “We the People” who we get to chose as president. “We the People” spoke. “We the People” elected President Obama. More of “We the People” voted for President Obama than any candidate in the history of the US. “We the People” aren’t convince by you recycling the same debunked lies over and over. Sure, you could go on, but you’d only be repeating the same debunked nonsense we’ve heard over and over. Move on.

    Wild Bill H: And besides, I thought Obama had already provided his BC….oh yeah, I guess that one finally got debunked!

    Actually the only thing that has been debunked is the birther claims that he hasn’t produced his BC. The reality based community has accepted it. However, the reality based community also recognizes that there are records containing additional information, that has no impact what-so-ever on his ability to hold office.

    Wild Bill H: And personally, I think you are the racist for bringing the race card into the discussion. If McCain had somehow managed to win beyond everything he did to throw the election, I’d be wanting to see his BC too – because he is not a NBC either. The only BC I’ve seen for McCain is a forgery, so I have my doubts that he released it as some report. It wouldn’t have mattered who won – McCain or Obama – they are both ineligible to be POTUS – and McCain would have been a far worse POTUS than Obama has been. Yeah, I’m just so racist!

    Whatever. I’m sure you have plenty of black friends too.

  223. avatar
    G April 13, 2011 at 1:26 pm #

    The Wild in Wild Bill must be short for “Wild-eyed”…because you certainly do rant and rave like someone who is either insane or taking some crazy drugs. Your points are so ridiculous, it is impossible to conceive that anyone would willingly come across that untethered from reality.

    Wild Bill H:
    Amusing that you use the birth announcement for his mothers address…especially without marriage certificate. And of course we know for a fact, beyond a shadow of a doubt who that Mrs. Obama was as cited in that announcement and of course, we also know – because we are all psychic that the son’ was our POTUS. I’m not saying it wasn’t referring to Ann Dunham and little Barry – I’m saying it is not proof positive as much as you would like to wish is it.

    Um, what is so amusing or unusual about that? If a document lists someone’s address, why do you question it? If a telephone book listed her address, would you require the marriage certificate as proof as well? See how stupid and nonsensical your arguments are?

    Guess what, the divorce documents clearly list the dates of her marriage as well. Face it, ALL evidence found to date fairly consistently corroborates the same info over and over again. We now have more documentation on Obama’s life story and records than just about any other President at this point in their term.

    Bigots like you only demand an endless stream of more and more proof because you are too immature to accept the truth and have to protect your fragile little being with a bubble of fantasy to pretend you live in some alternate reality, because you are too weak to handle the truth. You never cared about these issues for anyone else before Obama…I think the answer there is obvious, especially based on the nonsense you obsess on continuously in your posts…which we’ll see again further down.

    Wild Bill H:
    I think I’ll try that the next time I’m asked for ID. I’ll just say, oh, I’m Mrs. Bill, surely you know that because there was a newspaper announcement some 42 years ago when my son was born. It said Mr. & Mrs. Wild Bill of such and such address announce the birth of their son. And the next time my son is asked for ID, he can just use the same birth announcement and say, see – I’m THAT son.
    I’m sure everyone will breathe a sigh of relief to then have proof of who we are and where we once lived.

    What a stupid argument and completely untethered to anything that actually could have happened in this situation. Your utterly ludicrous examples here only serve to make you look stupid. You make up a crazy and bizarre scenario that doesn’t equate to anything at all. It is pure nonsense.

    Who is asking for the ID matters in the equation. You as some random (and apparently deranged) individual cannot come up off the street and ask me for my ID. Well, you could, but I can tell you to pound salt.

    Now the BMV can ask for my ID. They have clear policies and a list of which documents satisfy them. So, when asked, you provide them with THOSE actual documents. Which is exactly what Obama did in those same standard instances in his life. If I chose to post a copy of my driver’s license on the web for you to see, that would not give you the right to request or see the underlying documents I provided to the BMV in order to obtain that license. More importantly, if I didn’t post any of my info on the web but you for some crazy reason still wanted to see it, you would not be entitled to see my ID from me NOR would the BMV answer any questions you would ask them about my license or anything regarding my application for it.

    Wild Bill H:
    What is different about Obama that require We The People to ask for his BC are the questions that he himself have created about his birth circumstances.

    Um, “We the People” include ALL citizens of this country, not just the crazy folks like you. “We the People” voted Obama into office by an extremely decisive margin, with over 9.5 million more people preferring that option to anything else.

    “We the People” have no entitled rights to see his BC nor that of any other candidate, nor of any other citizen.

    Wild Bill H:
    No hospital in Hawaii claims him, his family don’t seem to remember exactly which hospital it is that doesn’t claim him. I could go on and on, but I’m sure the post won’t allow that many characters.

    Well you do always go on and on…but as always, all you spew is nonsense, lies and twisted misinformation.

    Privacy laws are very clear and strict on what info hospitals can give out. But you’ve already been informed of that, so you are merely being disingenuous. There have been several documented instances that answer and show where he was born: Kapi’olani. But you’ve been told that too and like a child just wish to stick your fingers in your ears and close your eyes and pretend it doesn’t exist.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapiolani_Medical_Center_for_Women_%26_Children

    There are 5 source citations on there alone providing evidence that this was where he was born. I suggest you learn to read and research… but then again, we know you are just a bitter and angry little troll and reminding you of the truth just makes you more unhinged and unhappy.

    Wild Bill H:

    And besides, I thought Obama had already provided his BC….oh yeah, I guess that one finally got debunked!

    He did. The 2007 HI COLB. It has never been debunked. ALL official statements to date have consistently backed it up. But keep living in your pretend alternate-reality fantasy world…good luck with that.

    Wild Bill H:
    And personally, I think you are the racist for bringing the race card into the discussion. If McCain had somehow managed to win beyond everything he did to throw the election, I’d be wanting to see his BC too – because he is not a NBC either. The only BC I’ve seen for McCain is a forgery, so I have my doubts that he released it as some report. It wouldn’t have mattered who won – McCain or Obama – they are both ineligible to be POTUS – and McCain would have been a far worse POTUS than Obama has been. Yeah, I’m just so racist!

    Gee, I notice YOU are the one who most often brings race into these discussions… just why is that Bill?

    Since YOU always bring that up, it must be an issue that you have an extremely unhealthy obsession with… sure seems to say more about you than anything else. Methinks you protest too much.

    Re: McCain. – Bottom line, both he and Obama are NBC. I seriously doubt and don’t believe you that you’d be here squawking about seeing his BC if he had been elected.

    Big deal – you don’t like Obama and you don’t like McCain either. That is all you have to say. Nobody is forcing you to like nor vote for either of them. Election results are going to happen that you don’t like and that end up with winners you didn’t want all the time. That is reality. Deal with it. So, get over it already and stop being such a whiny little baby.

  224. avatar
    Majority Will April 13, 2011 at 2:53 pm #

    Wild Bill H: Amusing

    Give it up, Sally. Are you really lonely again?

  225. avatar
    Robert Clark April 13, 2011 at 3:26 pm #

    sponson:
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater, belatedly, I did see the film The Contender, and found it quite entertaining.I agree that the President is under no obligation to answer stupid questions about his birthplace, or demands for any particular document, and I’m going even further by opining that he does have the option to give critics or conspiracy theorists the desired “proof” they demand, and chooses not to do so.I applaud him for it.

    But the news media IS under an obligation to ask what his SUPPORTERS call stupid questions, because it’s their job to ask their political leaders uncomfortable questions.
    Now if his response is “No comment”, then that would raise different questions …

    Bob

  226. avatar
    misha April 13, 2011 at 3:35 pm #

    Robert Clark: it’s their job to ask their political leaders uncomfortable questions

    Did Glenn Beck rape and murder a girl in 1990? He never denied it.

  227. avatar
    Scientist April 13, 2011 at 3:35 pm #

    Robert Clark: But the news media IS under an obligation to ask what his SUPPORTERS call stupid questions, because it’s their job to ask their political leaders uncomfortable questions.
    Now if his response is “No comment”, then that would raise different questions

    Each reporter at a news conference gets one question, with perhaps a follow up. Are you actually suggesting that rather than use their question to ask about the budget, the Middle East, health care, jobs or something important that they waste it by asking the President to confirm that he wrote a letter that he wrote?

    You are truly an idiot. My apology to idiots for the comparison

  228. avatar
    Majority Will April 13, 2011 at 3:39 pm #

    Scientist: Each reporter at a news conference gets one question, with perhaps a follow up.Are you actually suggesting that rather than use their questtion to ask about the budget, the Middle East, health care, jobs or something important that they waste it by asking the President to confirm that he wrote a letter that he wrot?

    You are truly an idiot. My apology to idiots for the comparison

    OMG, it’s Bob Unruh.

  229. avatar
    G April 13, 2011 at 3:51 pm #

    Scientist: Each reporter at a news conference gets one question, with perhaps a follow up. Are you actually suggesting that rather than use their question to ask about the budget, the Middle East, health care, jobs or something important that they waste it by asking the President to confirm that he wrote a letter that he wrote?You are truly an idiot. My apology to idiots for the comparison

    Agreed.

  230. avatar
    Daniel April 13, 2011 at 4:00 pm #

    Robert Clark: it’s their job to ask their political leaders uncomfortable questions.

    It’s not their job to ask obviously stupid questions, or cater to conspiracy nutbags.

  231. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 13, 2011 at 4:20 pm #

    Scientist: Each reporter at a news conference gets one question, with perhaps a follow up. Are you actually suggesting that rather than use their question to ask about the budget, the Middle East, health care, jobs or something important that they waste it by asking the President to confirm that he wrote a letter that he wrote?You are truly an idiot. My apology to idiots for the comparison

    Imagine how press conferences would have went if the Press asked George W. Bush if the CIA crashed airliners into the twin towers or who ordered the missle strike on the pentagon. According to Bob Clark these wild conspiracy theory questions are questions the press would be obligated to ask

  232. avatar
    Majority Will April 13, 2011 at 5:08 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Imagine how press conferences would have went if the Press asked George W. Bush if the CIA crashed airliners into the twin towers or who ordered the missle strike on the pentagon.According to Bob Clark these wild conspiracy theory questions are questions the press would be obligated to ask

    Or the names and addresses of the arresting officers in George’s DUI or disorderly conduct arrest, the accident in which Laura Bush killed her boyfriend or when Jenna and Barbara were arrested for alcohol related charges twice within 5 weeks.

    Trash for tabloids.

    To quote Daniel, “It’s not their job to ask obviously stupid questions, or cater to conspiracy nutbags.”

  233. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 13, 2011 at 5:16 pm #

    Majority Will: Or the names and addresses of the arresting officers in George’s DUI or disorderly conduct arrest, the accident in which Laura Bush killed her boyfriend or when Jenna and Barbara were arrested for alcohol related charges twice within 5 weeks.Trash for tabloids.To quote Daniel, “It’s not their job to ask obviously stupid questions, or cater to conspiracy nutbags.”

    What about the Margie Shroedinger Case Will?

  234. avatar
    Majority Will April 13, 2011 at 5:45 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): What about the Margie Shroedinger Case Will?

    Maybe Bob wants reporters to demand an exhumation of poor Margie.

    Unless a media blackout is ordered, of course.

  235. avatar
    Robert Clark April 13, 2011 at 11:19 pm #

    G: There have been several documented instances that answer and show where he was born: Kapi’olani. But you’ve been told that too and like a child just wish to stick your fingers in your ears and close your eyes and pretend it doesn’t exist.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapiolani_Medical_Center_for_Women_%26_Children
    There are 5 source citations on there alone providing evidence that this was where he was born.

    At that Wikipedia link with the 5 references, a couple of the links were expired. The earliest one that did open was this one:

    Serafin, Peter (21 March 2004). “Punahou grad stirs up Illinois politics” (Article). Special to the Star-Bulletin (Honolulu Star-Bulletin). http://archives.starbulletin.com/2004/03/21/news/story4.html. Retrieved November 30 2008.

    It did list his birth hospital as Kapiolani, but then it contained this statement:

    “Obama declined Star-Bulletin requests to interview him about his Hawaii years.”

    So even then he would not state on the record he was born at Kapiolani. Still I would like to find out what was the source of the reporters information that he was born at Kapiolani.
    Another one of the references is about the Kapiolani centennial celebration. I couldn’t get that link to open when I accessed it but it probably refers to that purported White House letter that the White House still refuses to acknowledge it wrote.
    The last reference listed discusses the Nordyke twins whose mother has released their long form birth certificates showing they were born at Kapiolani. The mother clearly just says she must have been there the same time as Obama’s mother because it has been widely reported Obama was born there, so this can not be regarded as an independent confirmation he was born there.

    Bob

  236. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 13, 2011 at 11:36 pm #

    Robert Clark: At that Wikipedia link with the 5 references, a couple of the links were expired.

    I fixed the Wikipedia article. All the links are working now.

    This is the main one to look at.

    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2008/Nov/09/ln/hawaii811090361.html

  237. avatar
    sean April 14, 2011 at 8:09 am #

    “Didn’t Obama say, in one of his books like DOMF, that he happened to come across his birth certificate?”

    My absolute favorite birther argument is this one. It breaks down like this:
    1) Obama released something that he claims is his “birth certificate”
    2) What he calls his “birth certificate” is not satisfactory
    3) We know that he has a copy of his birth certificate because of previous claims in which he said he had something which he called his “birth certificate”

  238. avatar
    Stanislaw April 14, 2011 at 11:28 am #

    sean:
    “Didn’t Obama say, in one of his books like DOMF, that he happened to come across his birth certificate?”

    My absolute favorite birther argument is this one.It breaks down like this:
    1) Obama released something that he claims is his “birth certificate”
    2) What he calls his “birth certificate” is not satisfactory
    3) We know that he has a copy of his birth certificate because of previous claims in which he said he had something which he called his “birth certificate”

    In addition, that book was first published in 1995 and it described an event that happened in the past. Birthers completely ignore the possibility that, since so much time had passed between then and the election of ’08, he probably lost it since he moved around quite a bit since then. He’s lived in at least five different states.

  239. avatar
    Robert Clark April 14, 2011 at 1:55 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I fixed the Wikipedia article. All the links are working now.

    This is the main one to look at.

    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2008/Nov/09/ln/hawaii811090361.html

    Thanks. The first article:

    Maraniss, David (24 August 2008). “Though Obama Had to Leave to Find Himself, It Is Hawaii That Made His Rise Possible”. Politics (The Washington Post). http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/23/AR2008082301620.html. Retrieved 2008-10-27.

    is a great article. I’m no fan of Obama but I do appreciate great writing. The author states he was born in Kapiolani but does not give a source. I am inclined to believe he is taking this from earlier newspaper articles such as the one from 2004 in the Honolulu Star-Bulletin.

    The other article that had an expired link:

    Hoover, Will (Sunday, November 9, 2008). “Obama’s Hawaii boyhood homes drawing gawkers”. Honolulu: Honolulu Advertiser. http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20081109/NEWS01/811090361/-1/specialobama08. Retrieved 24 December 2008. “Birthplaces and boyhood homes of U.S. presidents have been duly noted and honored”

    is now just taking you to the newspaper home page. Perhaps they change the links frequently.
    But anyway I was able to pull up the article by doing a web search on the title:
    “Obama’s Hawaii boyhood homes drawing gawkers.” Here it is:

    OBAMA’S BOYHOOD HOMES IN HAWAII
    Obama’s Hawaii boyhood homes drawing gawkers.
    By Will Hoover
    Advertiser Staff Writer
    Posted on: Sunday, November 9, 2008
    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2008/Nov/09/ln/hawaii811090361.html

    It states the source for the information that he was born at Kapiolani was his family. I’ll try to contact the author to see who in his family provided the information.

    Bob

  240. avatar
    Jeffy April 14, 2011 at 4:19 pm #

    Q: WHY WON’T OBAMA RELEASE HIS LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE!?!?!?!??!

    A: Because it would likely end the controversy and Obama would lose a valuable ally in making his foes look like the unhinged wackos they really are.

  241. avatar
    Scientist April 14, 2011 at 4:32 pm #

    Robert Clark: It states the source for the information that he was born at Kapiolani was his family. I’ll try to contact the author to see who in his family provided the information

    So your intent is to harass some member of the Obama/Dunham family? And yet you think the name of the doctor who delivered the President sjould be released so you can harass them too, if they’re still alive (or their family if they’re dead)? You are a sleazebag. zand i apologie to sleazebags for the comparison.

  242. avatar
    gorefan April 14, 2011 at 5:50 pm #

    Bob,

    Thanks for the link to that article. I found this part interesting,

    “While most Obama residences can be traced, the hospital where he was born is difficult to document. The desire of historians to pinpoint where Obama’s life began has crashed head-on with the modern American propensity toward confidentiality. The federal Health Information Privacy Act of 1999 — a law passed to protect medical records from public scrutiny — prevents hospitals from confirming births, administrators contend.”

    “We don’t have plans to do anything,” said Kapiolani Medical Center spokeswoman, Claire Tong, when asked how the center plans to commemorate the soon-to-be 44th U.S. president, who, according to Obama’s family and other sources, was born at that hospital on Aug. 4, 1961.”

    “We can’t confirm or deny it — even though all the information out there says he was born at Kapiolani Hospital. And that’s because of the HIPA law.”

    “Tong acknowledged that the center has received daily inquiries from news agencies far and wide asking for confirmation of Obama’s birthplace. Much as she wishes she could do it, Tong said it’s not possible.”

    “Our hands are tied,” she said.

    I guess that explains the lack of confirmation from the hospital.

  243. avatar
    Robert Clark April 15, 2011 at 12:17 pm #

    Robert Clark: OBAMA’S BOYHOOD HOMES IN HAWAII
    Obama’s Hawaii boyhood homes drawing gawkers.
    By Will Hoover
    Advertiser Staff Writer
    Posted on: Sunday, November 9, 2008
    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2008/Nov/09/ln/hawaii811090361.html

    It states the source for the information that he was born at Kapiolani was his family. I’ll try to contact the author to see who in his family provided the information.

    Bob

    The link to the reporter Will Hoover’s email on that story is no longer valid. Apparently the reporter is now retired:

    Return of the outlaw
    A former journalist reawakens his country music career just as a famed performer covers one of his songs
    By Gary C.W. Chun
    POSTED: 01:30 a.m. HST, Aug 29, 2010
    http://www.staradvertiser.com/features/20100829_Return_of_the_outlaw.html

    However after doing a web search on his name I found this:

    ‘Birthers’ claim Gibbs lied when he said Obama’s birth certificate is posted on the Internet.
    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/28/worldnetdaily/birthers-claim-gibbs-lied-when-he-said-obamas-birt/

    PolitiFact is a fairly well even-handed site on the lines of FactCheck. They talked to Hoover about his article. They write this:

    In Honolulu, the Obama tour buses take you by the old Kapiolani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital, now called Kapi’olani Medical Center for Women & Children. Federal laws prohibit hospital officials from confirming that he was born there, but Hoover said it’s common knowledge among locals.

    That strongly implies that Hoover was not getting his information that Obama was born at Kapiolani from Obama’s family, but just from what was “common knowledge” among the locals. Perhaps that “common knowledge” was coming from that earlier article that said he was born at Kapiolani:

    Serafin, Peter (21 March 2004). “Punahou grad stirs up Illinois politics” (Article). Special to the Star-Bulletin (Honolulu Star-Bulletin). http://archives.starbulletin.com/2004/03/21/news/story4.html. Retrieved November 30 2008

    But as I said Obama chose not to discuss his Hawaii years with that reporter so we still don’t have on the record from him which hospital he was born at.
    I’m trying to contact this reporter Peter Serafin about his source that Obama was born at Kapiolani.

    Bob

  244. avatar
    MichaelN April 16, 2011 at 10:25 pm #

    Obama is hiding the fact that he was born in Kenya, granny filed/registered a home birth in Hawaii under …

    Hawaiian Revised Statute.

    §338-6 Local agent to prepare birth certificate. (a) If neither parent of the newborn child whose birth is unattended as provided in section 338-5 is able to prepare a birth certificate, the local agent of the department of health shall secure the necessary information from any person having knowledge of the birth and prepare and file the certificate.

    (b) The department shall prescribe the time within which a supplementary report furnishing information omitted on the original certificate may be returned for the purpose of completing the certificate. Certificates of birth completed by a supplementary report shall not be considered as “delayed” or “altered”. [L 1949, c 327, §10; RL 1955, §57-9; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, §19; HRS §338-6]

    Granny and/or Stanley Ann probably attempted to provide, by hook or by crook, supplementary evidence of the home birth to no avail, at least until the point in time in 2007, when Obama got issued his CoLB marked as ‘Date Filed by the Registrar’, which he thinks will suffice to do his con-job on the US Citizens and uses for same.

    Such is the audacity of a narcissist. (see Characteristics and Traits) here
    http://open-site.org/Health/Conditions_and_Diseases/Psychiatric_Disorders/Personality/Narcissistic/

    The recent UNOFFICIAL statement by Fukino (which she failed to state in her official capacity) stating that Obama’s vital record has the signature of a doctor is deliberately & mischievously ambiguous, in that the doctor is probably a Kenyan doctor.

    See page 31 of the ‘Scribd’ document that shows Obama claimed by Kenyan government member, as born in Kenya and not a native of USA here ………….

    http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2010/04/member-of-kenyan-assembly-on-march-25th.html

  245. avatar
    MichaelN April 16, 2011 at 10:30 pm #

    Jeffy:
    Q:WHY WON’T OBAMA RELEASE HIS LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE!?!?!?!??!

    A:Because it would likely end the controversy and Obama would lose a valuable ally in making his foes look like the unhinged wackos they really are.

    or A1: Because it doesn’t exist, granny/Stanley Ann file/registered a home birth in Hawaii under Hawaiian Revised Statute..

    §338-6 Local agent to prepare birth certificate. (a) If neither parent of the newborn child whose birth is unattended as provided in section 338-5 is able to prepare a birth certificate, the local agent of the department of health shall secure the necessary information from any person having knowledge of the birth and prepare and file the certificate.

    (b) The department shall prescribe the time within which a supplementary report furnishing information omitted on the original certificate may be returned for the purpose of completing the certificate. Certificates of birth completed by a supplementary report shall not be considered as “delayed” or “altered”. [L 1949, c 327, §10; RL 1955, §57-9; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, §19; HRS §338-6]

  246. avatar
    Robert Clark April 16, 2011 at 11:37 pm #

    Another thing I was puzzled about is that I didn’t remember seeing any baby pictures of Obama. After a web search I did find some of Obama as a young child:

    Barack Obama ‘grew up in Kenya’ says Republican presidential hopeful.
    Mike Huckabee, a front-runner for the Republican presidential candidacy, has suggested Barack Obama’s childhood in Kenya shaped his view of Britain, even though Mr Obama did not visit Kenya until he was in his 20s.
    By Alex Spillius, Washington 5:01PM GMT 02 Mar 2011
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/barackobama/8357494/Barack-Obama-grew-up-in-Kenya-says-Republican-presidential-hopeful.html

    Barack Obama pictures: The early years.
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/070323obama-early-photogallery,0,5458360.photogallery

    That statement by Huckabee in that first article was retracted, but I’m only interested in the photos of Obama as a child accompanying the article. They show images of him outdoors that definitely appear to be in Hawaii such as the one with his grandfather. I estimate in these pictures his age is in the range of 2 to 3 yrs.
    In the second link also with outdoor pictures of him that appear to be in Hawaii he also appears to be about 2 to 3 in the youngest ones.
    What would really be helpful would be images of him as an infant that show outdoor scenes that appear to be in Hawaii. I was only able to find one image of him as an infant, but it’s an indoor scene that does not allow you to determine location:

    Right Wing US conspiracists question Obama’s birth certificate
    On the fringes of the American right, a growing conspiracy claims that Barack Obama is hiding a Kenyan birth certificate, making him ineligible to serve as president.
    By Leonard Doyle in Washington 5:31PM BST 25 Jul 2009
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/barackobama/5907183/Right-Wing-US-conspiracists-question-Obamas-birth-certificate.html

    Anyone know of any other images of him as an infant that would show outdoor scenes allowing you to determine location, perhaps from Obama’s two books?
    They would not have to be outdoor scenes if they showed for instance furnishings known to be contained in the Dunham household.

    Bob

  247. avatar
    G April 16, 2011 at 11:46 pm #

    MichaelN: Obama is hiding the fact that he was born in Kenya, granny filed/registered a home birth in Hawaii under …

    MichaelN: or A1: Because it doesn’t exist, granny/Stanley Ann file/registered a home birth in Hawaii under Hawaiian Revised Statute..

    *sigh* More delusional lies from Austrialian foreigner MichaelN. There is barely any point saying anything more than that to you anymore, as you’ve so consistently shown yourself to be a disingenuous liar with no credibility.

    Go check your closet for scary bogeymen muslims, you pathetic nut.

  248. avatar
    Rickey April 17, 2011 at 12:00 am #

    Robert Clark:
    Another thing I was puzzled about is that I didn’t remember seeing any baby pictures of Obama.

    You find that puzzling? The earliest photo I have of me was taken when I was four years old. If my father ever took a baby picture of me, I’ve never seen it.

    That said, there is one baby photo and several childhood photos of Obama here:

    http://www.barack-obama-photos.com/Obama-Childhood-Photos.html

  249. avatar
    Joey April 17, 2011 at 12:32 am #

    MichaelN: or A1: Because it doesn’t exist, granny/Stanley Ann file/registered a home birth in Hawaii under Hawaiian Revised Statute..

    §338-6 Local agent to prepare birth certificate. (a) If neither parent of the newborn child whose birth is unattended as provided in section 338-5 is able to prepare a birth certificate, the local agent of the department of health shall secure the necessary information from any person having knowledge of the birth and prepare and file the certificate.

    (b) The department shall prescribe the time within which a supplementary report furnishing information omitted on the original certificate may be returned for the purpose of completing the certificate. Certificates of birth completed by a supplementary report shall not be considered as “delayed” or “altered”. [L 1949, c 327, §10; RL 1955, §57-9; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, §19; HRS §338-6]

    Barack Obama’s birth records can be released without his permission under a court order:
    See point 9 below:
    §338-18 Disclosure of records. (a) To protect the integrity of vital statistics records, to ensure their proper use, and to ensure the efficient and proper administration of the vital statistics system, it shall be unlawful for any person to permit inspection of, or to disclose information contained in vital statistics records, or to copy or issue a copy of all or part of any such record, except as authorized by this part or by rules adopted by the department of health.

    (b) The department shall not permit inspection of public health statistics records, or issue a certified copy of any such record or part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant has a direct and tangible interest in the record. The following persons shall be considered to have a direct and tangible interest in a public health statistics record:

    (1) The registrant;

    (2) The spouse of the registrant;

    (3) A parent of the registrant;

    (4) A descendant of the registrant;

    (5) A person having a common ancestor with the registrant;

    (6) A legal guardian of the registrant;

    (7) A person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;

    (8) A personal representative of the registrant’s estate;

    (9) A person whose right to inspect or obtain a certified copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction;

    If anybody really, truly, honestly just must see whether there is an unattended home birth registered for the President, they can go to their favorite judge or the chair of their favorite congressional committee and get a subpoena to look at the documents to see if they say “unattended home birth” or “Kapiolani Hospital” with the signature of Dr. Rodney T. West.

  250. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 17, 2011 at 12:56 am #

    Robert Clark: What would really be helpful would be images of him as an infant that show outdoor scenes that appear to be in Hawaii.

    Are you seriously suggesting that Granny was smart enough to get Obama a Hawaiian Birth Registration so he could be President, but not smart enough to fake a few baby photos with Hawaiian backgrounds?

  251. avatar
    Expelliarmus April 17, 2011 at 2:01 am #

    Robert Clark: Another thing I was puzzled about is that I didn’t remember seeing any baby pictures of Obama

    How come no baby pictures of Obama in Kenya? I mean, if he was born there, wouldn’t there be pictures like this somewhere? http://goo.gl/IQvRz or http://goo.gl/NeIfi

  252. avatar
    obsolete April 17, 2011 at 3:57 am #

    Rickey: http://www.barack-obama-photos.com/Obama-Childhood-Photos.html

    Robert Clark- look at the photo on this page captioned “Obama on the beach with grandfather”. Do you see the strong resemblance? This is one of the reasons I have no patience with birthers who flippantly suggest Malcolm X (or some other black boogyman) must be his father.

    Not that I am accusing you of this, but you do have birther leanings and I just wanted to comment on something that you have surely read on birther sites.

  253. avatar
    Keith April 17, 2011 at 4:57 am #

    Robert Clark: Another thing I was puzzled about is that I didn’t remember seeing any baby pictures of Obama.

    So effing what? I don’t believe any baby pictures exist of me, what does that mean, that I don’t exist?

  254. avatar
    MichaelN April 17, 2011 at 5:53 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Are you seriously suggesting that Granny was smart enough to get Obama a Hawaiian Birth Registration so he could be President, but not smart enough to fake a few baby photos with Hawaiian backgrounds?

    Granny was smart enough to get Obama registered under HRS 338-06 so he would get US citizenship, not necessarily for president.

  255. avatar
    Scientist April 17, 2011 at 5:59 am #

    MichaelN: Granny was smart enough to get Obama registered under HRS 338-06 so he would get US citizenship, not necessarily for president.

    The biological child of a US citizen born abroad is entitled to automatic US citizenship upon arrival in the US. Sucks to be you, MichaelN, .

  256. avatar
    Suranis April 17, 2011 at 8:48 am #

    See ACT 96. AN ACT To PROVIDE FOR THE ISSUANCE OF CERTIFICATES OF HAWAIIAN BIRTH do show that MichealNs scenario using 338-06 to get a birth cert was impossible, as I have explained elsewhere.

    And there’s just one pic of me as a baby and that’s me lying in a cot

  257. avatar
    Scientist April 17, 2011 at 9:07 am #

    Scientist: See ACT 96. AN ACT To PROVIDE FOR THE ISSUANCE OF CERTIFICATES OF HAWAIIAN BIRTH do show that MichealNs scenario using 338-06 to get a birth cert was impossible, as I have explained elsewhere.
    And there’s just one pic of me as a baby and that’s me lying in a cot

    So we have a “crime” with:

    No motive-Since the minor child of a US citizen is and was automatically eligible for citizenship
    No opportunity-As described above
    No evidence-In fact no evidence to suggest there even was a “crime”

    As for infant photos, in those days infants were taken out much less commonly than is done today. All my infant photos are indoors. We have a few outdoors of my children (born much later), but infant photos tend to focus on baby and parents and rarely show much background.

  258. avatar
    Robert Clark April 17, 2011 at 9:47 am #

    obsolete: Robert Clark- look at the photo on this page captioned “Obama on the beach with grandfather”. Do you see the strong resemblance? This is one of the reasons I have no patience with birthers who flippantly suggest Malcolm X (or some other black boogyman) must be his father.Not that I am accusing you of this, but you do have birther leanings and I just wanted to comment on something that you have surely read on birther sites.

    I agree that shows the picture on the beach with his maternal grandfather. It doesn’t show that Barack Obama Sr. was his father.
    Also, because there are photos of him at a young age in Hawaii I consider it very likely he was born there. What still is nagging at me is that his behavior about not releasing his original birth certificate and not coming out publicly saying he was born at Kapiolani hospital is not logical to me.
    Most of us are proud of our birth town and birth hospital. It doesn’t make sense to me that we would not want to trumpet this loudly. I don’t agree with the view that he doesn’t want to release it because he’s mad at the birthers.
    I think overwhelmingly for most people the reaction would be, “What do you mean I’m not an American?? You SOB’s! I was born at Kapiolani hospital and Dr. ________ delivered me. There’s my birth certicate to prove it!”

    Bob

  259. avatar
    Suranis April 17, 2011 at 9:53 am #

    Bob, he did show hos birth certificate, and he wrote a letter saying Kaapiolani was his birth hospital and he even mentioned it in his book mentioned 20 years ago. If you want a confirmation of the confirmation of the confirmation then that’s your problem. The President can’t help you with that but a good psychologist might.

  260. avatar
    Robert Clark April 17, 2011 at 10:09 am #

    Suranis: Bob, he did show hos birth certificate, and he wrote a letter saying Kaapiolani was his birth hospital and he even mentioned it in his book mentioned 20 years ago. If you want a confirmation of the confirmation of the confirmation then that’s your problem. The President can’t help you with that but a good psychologist might.

    We know what the debate is about the orginal long form and the Certification of Live Birth released.
    About that Kapiolani letter, the President or any public official is used to getting follow up questions from different reporters on information.they’ve given out. It doesn’t make sense that the White House is taking a “no comment” attitude in regards to this letter.
    It’s another one of those factors that leave nagging doubts that could be resolved in an instant by the President.

    Bob

  261. avatar
    Robert Clark April 17, 2011 at 10:12 am #

    Robert Clark: We know what the debate is about the orginal long form and the Certification of Live Birth released.About that Kapiolani letter, the President or any public official is used to getting follow up questions from different reporters on information.they’ve given out. It doesn’t make sense that the White House is taking a “no comment” attitude in regards to this letter.It’s another one of those factors that leave nagging doubts that could be resolved in an instant by the President.Bob

    I forgot to also mention that Obama in his book Dreams From My Father only mentions that he saw his birth certificate he didn’t mention which hospital he was born in.

    Bob

  262. avatar
    Scientist April 17, 2011 at 10:12 am #

    Robert Clark: About that Kapiolani letter, the President or any public official is used to getting follow up questions from different reporters on information.they’ve given out. It doesn’t make sense that the White House is taking a “no comment” attitude in regards to this letter.

    Can you tell me how many times an actual reporter has asked this question?

  263. avatar
    Suranis April 17, 2011 at 10:13 am #

    http://www.apa.org/

    I hope you will find someone there that will give you the help you desperately need.

  264. avatar
    Lupin April 17, 2011 at 10:22 am #

    Robert Clark: It’s another one of those factors that leave nagging doubts that could be resolved in an instant by the President.

    There’s no “nagging doubts” except in the minds of racists and bigots.

  265. avatar
    Robert Clark April 17, 2011 at 10:54 am #

    Keith: So effing what? I don’t believe any baby pictures exist of me, what does that mean, that I don’t exist?

    I agree if such phots don’t exist you can’t draw any conclusions from that. But if there were such photos for me that would give further evidence he was born in Hawaii.

    Bob

  266. avatar
    BatGuano April 17, 2011 at 10:59 am #

    Robert Clark: I agree if such phots don’t exist you can’t draw any conclusions from that. But if there were such photos for me that would give further evidence he was born in Hawaii.

    Bob

    wouldn’t birthers dismiss such pictures as photoshopped?

  267. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 17, 2011 at 1:15 pm #

    Scientist: Can you tell me how many times an actual reporter has asked this question?

    My recollection is that they asked Robert Gibbs about it in a briefing, and said he didn’t know. I don’t recall any “no comment” response. If Gibbs had responded later in writing, it wouldn’t have made the Tubes.

  268. avatar
    G April 17, 2011 at 2:07 pm #

    Robert Clark: I agree if such phots don’t exist you can’t draw any conclusions from that. But if there were such photos for me that would give further evidence he was born in Hawaii.Bob

    There is NO real evidence that he was born anywhere else. ALL real evidence to date supports the exact same born in HI conclusion.

    Why would additional info be necessary? Unless you have solid evidence contradicting the existing info, there is no reason to doubt the HI conclusion.

  269. avatar
    Mary Brown April 17, 2011 at 2:26 pm #

    If it were me Robert I wouldn’t give you anything. Why, because nothing will ever be enough. As far as paternity is concerned I would find a picture of his half brother who lives in China. There is a very strong resemblance. His half brother who I believe is named David has a British mother.

  270. avatar
    Mary Brown April 17, 2011 at 2:33 pm #

    As I celebrate Holy Week I am reminded that when Jesus was often silent in front of His accusers. There is a time for silence when being accused and I think the President is correct in remaining mostly silent on this issue. No, I am not comparing the President to Jesus but merely making a comparison with the circumstance-having accusers who are unwilling to listen to the truth.

  271. avatar
    Expelliarmus April 17, 2011 at 2:36 pm #

    MichaelN: Granny was smart enough to get Obama registered under HRS 338-06

    That’s pretty smart to get the state to apply a law in 1961 that wouldn’t be written until 20 years later.

  272. avatar
    katahdin April 17, 2011 at 2:37 pm #

    Mary Brown:
    If it were me Robert I wouldn’t give you anything.Why, because nothing will ever be enough.As far as paternity is concerned I would find a picture of his half brother who lives in China.There is a very strong resemblance.His half brother who I believe is named David has a British mother.

    I think it is President Obama’s brother Mark Obama who lives in China, and his mother is an American Jewish woman. Mark’s younger brother, David, died young in an accident. Mark is Jewish, which I guess makes President Obama a secret Jew.

  273. avatar
    Expelliarmus April 17, 2011 at 2:44 pm #

    Robert Clark: What still is nagging at me is that his behavior about not releasing his original birth certificate and not coming out publicly saying he was born at Kapiolani hospital is not logical to me.

    He released his OFFICIAL birth certificate in the summer 2008 by posting a copy on the internet and allowing Factcheck.org and several news organizations to examine it. (I don’t know which “several” those are, but both CNN & Fox (O’Reilly) reported that, so I am guessing that reps from both CNN/Fox had that opportunity. )

    He wrote and signed a letter on White House letterhead explicitly stating he was born at Kapiolani, in January of 2010 [2009. Doc.] . A copy of that letter was released to the public by that hospital, and the letter was read aloud at an open gathering by the now-Governor of Hawaii.

  274. avatar
    Joey April 17, 2011 at 3:08 pm #

    Expelliarmus: He released his OFFICIAL birth certificate in the summer 2008 by posting a copy on the internet and allowing Factcheck.org and several news organizations to examine it.(I don’t know which “several” those are, but both CNN & Fox (O’Reilly) reported that, so I am guessing that reps from both CNN/Fox had that opportunity. )

    He wrote and signed a letter on White House letterhead explicitly stating he was born at Kapiolani, in January of 2010.A copy of that letter was released to the public by that hospital, and the letter wasread aloud at an open gathering by the now-Governor of Hawaii.

    If Obama had released his ORIGINAL birth certificate, the folded up one that he found in a book, according to Dreams From My Father, birthers would say that it was forged or not official, particularly if there was nothing controversial on it. They would want it examined by experts and carbon dated.
    Since the President did the right thing and had the state of Hawaii (with an administration composed of members of the opposing political party) release proof of his birth that contains all the information that is needed under Article II, Section 1 of the US Constitution, the birthers were outflanked and they just can’t let Obama win.
    If the President ever decides to release his original copy of his birth certificate, it should be at a time much closer to the next presidential election when the release can do maximum political damage to any opposition candidates who are toeing the birther line.
    I think a conservative Republican federal judge who was appointed by President George W. Bush put it best: “A spurious claim questioning the President’s constitutional legitimacy may be protected by the First Amendment, but a Court’s placement of its imprimatur upon a claim that is so lacking in factual support that it is frivolous would undoubtedly disserve the public interest.”–US District Court Judge for the Middle District of Georgia Clay R. Land, Rhodes v MacDonald, September 16, 2009

  275. avatar
    nc1 April 17, 2011 at 3:10 pm #

    Scientist: The biological child of a US citizen born abroad is entitled to automatic US citizenship upon arrival in the US.Sucks to be you, MichaelN, .

    Such a baby would not be a natural born citizen.

  276. avatar
    nc1 April 17, 2011 at 3:24 pm #

    Expelliarmus: He released his OFFICIAL birth certificate in the summer 2008 by posting a copy on the internet and allowing Factcheck.org and several news organizations to examine it.(I don’t know which “several” those are, but both CNN & Fox (O’Reilly) reported that, so I am guessing that reps from both CNN/Fox had that opportunity. )

    He wrote and signed a letter on White House letterhead explicitly stating he was born at Kapiolani, in January of 2010.A copy of that letter was released to the public by that hospital, and the letter wasread aloud at an open gathering by the now-Governor of Hawaii.

    Only Factcheck had access to a document claimed to be Hawaii COLB, no other news agency examined it. Bill O’Lielly, CNN and others used FactCheck as their source.

  277. avatar
    Scientist April 17, 2011 at 3:32 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: My recollection is that they asked Robert Gibbs about it in a briefing, and said he didn’t know. I don’t recall any “no comment” response. If Gibbs had responded later in writing, it wouldn’t have made the Tubes.

    The fact is neither Gibbs nor his successor was present at the birth, so “I don’t know” is neither a dodge nor a lie, but a simple statement of fact. Even the President doesn’t “know”, because the word “know” implies that one personally observed and remembers the event.

    Let’s be rigorous. Mr Clark BELIEVES he was born in a particular hospital. The President BELIEVES he was born in Kapi’olani. Neither one of them KNOWS.

    If absolute knowledge were the criterion before one could write or say a word, then there would be very little ever said or written. Perhaps that wouldn’t be a bad thing…

  278. avatar
    Sef April 17, 2011 at 3:32 pm #

    nc1: Only Factcheck had access to a document claimed to be Hawaii COLB, no other news agency examined it.Bill O’Lielly, CNN and others used FactCheck as their source.

    A correct statement would be: “Only Factcheck availed themselves of the opportunity to see the COLB.”

    Why didn’t you take a trip to Chicago if it was so important to you?

  279. avatar
    Joey April 17, 2011 at 3:33 pm #

    nc1: Such a baby would not be a natural born citizen.

    According to whom? Which US Supreme Court decision or which statute in the US Code of Laws?
    And where is the proof to be presented to a judge or a congressional committee that Barack Hussein Obama II was born outside of the United States?
    “The state of Hawaii has said that he was born there. That’s good enough for me.”–Congressman John Boehner, Speaker of the House of Representatives (R-OH).
    “It’s been established. He was born here.”–Former Governor Linda Lingle (R-HI)

  280. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 17, 2011 at 3:34 pm #

    nc1: Only Factcheck had access to a document claimed to be Hawaii COLB, no other news agency examined it. Bill O’Lielly, CNN and others used FactCheck as their source.

    Which demonstrates the high regard other news organizations have for FactCheck.

  281. avatar
    Scientist April 17, 2011 at 3:36 pm #

    nc1: Such a baby would not be a natural born citizen

    Do you ever look at context? The discussion concerned the allegation that a US citizen would concoct a fraud to get citizenship for their child. I pointed out that would make no sense, since the child would automatically be a citizen.

    Your “theory” (I hate to even dignify your idiocy with such a word) of a fraudllent registration to get citizenship when such citizenship was automatically granted without fraud is the equivalent of accusing me of breaking into my own house to steal my own silverware.

  282. avatar
    nc1 April 17, 2011 at 4:23 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Which demonstrates the high regard other news organizations have for FactCheck.

    Not really – it indicates that other news organizations have lazy staff. How do you explain CNN showing the apartment building (Beretania St.) and claiming that this address was mentioned in the newspaper birth announcement? The same person (John King) claimed that hospital sent the birth announcement information to the newspaper.

    It is amazing that a major news organization reports obviously false information as a fact.

  283. avatar
    Joey April 17, 2011 at 4:40 pm #

    nc1: Not really – it indicates that other news organizations have lazy staff. How do you explain CNN showing the apartment building (Beretania St.) and claiming that this address was mentioned in the newspaper birth announcement?The same person (John King) claimed that hospital sent the birth announcement information to the newspaper.

    It is amazing that a major news organization reports obviously false information as a fact.

    I’m sure that you are aware of the fact that birther-supporting media outlets like Worldnetdaily have continually reported falsehoods as fact like fake Kenyan birth certificates and forged Panama birth certificates for Senator McCain showing him born in Colon, Panama when he was born at Coco Solo Naval Air Station in the Canal Zone.
    ALL news organizations make mistakes because they employ human beings who sometimes make mistakes
    The Pullitzer Prize Winning “Politifact” investigative unit of the St. Petersburg Times also has done thorough investigations of the Obama eligibility issue and the Obama COLB and concluded that Obama is fully eligible and that his COLB is legitimate and genuine.

  284. avatar
    nc1 April 17, 2011 at 4:42 pm #

    Scientist: Do you ever look at context?The discussion concerned the allegation that a US citizen would concoct a fraud to get citizenship for their child.I pointed out that would make no sense, since the child would automatically be a citizen.

    Your “theory” (I hate to even dignify your idiocy with such a word) of a fraudllent registration to get citizenship when such citizenship was automatically granted without fraud is the equivalent of accusing me of breaking into my own house to steal my own silverware.

    1. Not according to the law in effect in 1961. A child born abroad to a foreigner and a US citizen would not get US citizenship automatically. How many times do you need to be reminded of that law?

    2. The main discussion on this blog is eligibility for presidency. A naturalized citizen is not eligible for presidency.

  285. avatar
    Sef April 17, 2011 at 4:50 pm #

    nc1: 1.Not according to the law in effect in 1961.A child born abroad to a foreigner and a US citizen would not get US citizenship automatically. How many times do you need to be reminded of that law?

    2.The main discussion on this blog is eligibility for presidency.A naturalized citizen is not eligible for presidency.

    Unfortunately, score 1 point for nc1. It, of course, doesn’t matter since all our other cards are trump.

  286. avatar
    obsolete April 17, 2011 at 5:07 pm #

    The point is, Obama would have been a citizen. Why would Obama’s family go through the additional hassle and illegalities to arrange for Obama to be a “Natural Born” citizen? Do you think they really believed that he could be President one day? And if so, was the chance so high as to be worth the effort and risk?
    That is ridiculous.

  287. avatar
    obsolete April 17, 2011 at 5:14 pm #

    Robert Clark- How many official White House letters does Obama have to write, release, and have published by the hospital he was proudly born in before you stop asking Obama for such a letter?

  288. avatar
    Suranis April 17, 2011 at 5:45 pm #

    interestingly, the rules for Acquisition of U.S. Citizenship By a Child Born ABROAD (just capitalising it so NC1 and MichealN cant claim they didn’t notice this) say the following thing about the situation:

    ” A child born abroad to two U.S. citizen parents acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under section 301(c) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) provided that one of the parents had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions prior to the child’s birth. The child is considered to be born in wedlock if the child is the genetic issue of the married couple.

    Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock

    A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) of the INA provided the U.S. citizen parent was physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child’s birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen, is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen, is required for physical presence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.) The U.S. citizen parent must be genetically related to the child to transmit U.S. citizenship. ”

    So he probably would not be an NBC (born citizen at birth) in that situation, depending on how you read 5 years after the age of 14. As everyone else has indicated, big deal to a poor mixed race kid in 1961. I couldn’t find the regulations regarding the naturalization of infants born to US citizens abroad.

  289. avatar
    Suranis April 17, 2011 at 5:46 pm #

    Oh the link is http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_5199.html

  290. avatar
    nc1 April 17, 2011 at 5:49 pm #

    obsolete:
    The point is, Obama would have been a citizen. Why would Obama’s family go through the additional hassle and illegalities to arrange for Obama to be a “Natural Born” citizen? Do you think they really believed that he could be President one day? And if so, was the chance so high as to be worth the effort and risk?
    That is ridiculous.

    Obama would not have been a citizen at birth if he was born abroad – do you get it?

  291. avatar
    Suranis April 17, 2011 at 6:05 pm #

    nc1: Obama would not have been a citizen at birth if he was born abroad – do you get it?

    No-one ever claimed he would have been a citizen at birth if born abroad. Duh!

    The point, again, is that he could have gained US naturalized citizenship easily on his return to the United states so there was no need for a really complex plan. Which would have given him 99.999999999% of the benefits of NBC US citizenship, so why bother with the sekret plan involving parachutes to avoid immigration.

    Yeesh. I’m trying really hard to avoid making a special Olympics joke at this point.

  292. avatar
    nc1 April 17, 2011 at 6:21 pm #

    Suranis:
    interestingly, the rules for Acquisition of U.S. Citizenship By a Child Born ABROAD (just capitalising it so NC1 and MichealN cant claim they didn’t notice this) say the following thing about the situation:

    ”A child born abroad to two U.S. citizen parents acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under section 301(c) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) provided that one of the parents had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions prior to the child’s birth. The child is considered to be born in wedlock if the child is the genetic issue of the married couple.

    Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock

    A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) of the INA provided the U.S. citizen parent was physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child’s birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen, is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen, is required for physical presence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.) The U.S. citizen parent must be genetically related to the child to transmit U.S. citizenship. ”

    So he probably would not be an NBC (born citizen at birth) in that situation, depending on how you read 5 years after the age of 14. As everyone else has indicated, big deal to a poor mixed race kid in 1961. I couldn’t find the regulations regarding the naturalization of infants born to US citizens abroad.

    LOL, our resident leprechaun just found about about the US Immigration and Nationality Act from 1952. Welcome to the club.

  293. avatar
    Keith April 17, 2011 at 6:30 pm #

    nc1: Scientist: The biological child of a US citizen born abroad is entitled to automatic US citizenship upon arrival in the US.Sucks to be you, MichaelN, .

    Such a baby would not be a natural born citizen.

    Then John McCain is not a natural born citizen.

  294. avatar
    Suranis April 17, 2011 at 6:35 pm #

    nc1: LOL, our resident leprechaun just found about about the US Immigration and Nationality Act from 1952. Welcome to the club.

    And you spelled it correctly. Well done.

    So what does that have to do with the fact that Obama could have been naturalized on return from Africa, and therefore there was no point in all this complicated plotting and planning? Especially since no-one ever claimed he would have been a citizen at birth?

  295. avatar
    Suranis April 17, 2011 at 6:37 pm #

    Keith: Quote

    I thought McCain was born to 2 US citizens abroad, thereby making him an NBC. Could be wrong of course.

  296. avatar
    Keith April 17, 2011 at 6:38 pm #

    Sef: nc1: 1.Not according to the law in effect in 1961.A child born abroad to a foreigner and a US citizen would not get US citizenship automatically. How many times do you need to be reminded of that law?

    2.The main discussion on this blog is eligibility for presidency.A naturalized citizen is not eligible for presidency.

    Unfortunately, score 1 point for nc1. It, of course, doesn’t matter since all our other cards are trump.

    Except for the continuous prattling on about a law that didn’t exist 1961 allowing ‘anyone’ to get a birth certificate from Hawai’i even though they were born overseas.

    So deduct a point for that and he’s back where he/she was: at minus 100 (or something like that).

  297. avatar
    nc1 April 17, 2011 at 6:39 pm #

    Keith: Then John McCain is not a natural born citizen.

    Of course he is not. That is why he did not challenge Obama’s eligibility.

  298. avatar
    Scientist April 17, 2011 at 6:42 pm #

    nc1: LOL, our resident leprechaun just found about about the US Immigration and Nationality Act from 1952. Welcome to the club.

    The section you are quoting involves acquisiton of US Citizenship AT BIRTH. There is another section of the law for NATURALIZATION of the biological children of US citizens born abroad. Under this section, if a US ciitizen has a child abroad that is not a US citizen at birth if that child is brought to the US, the parent can immediately go to the nearest Immigration and Naturaliization office with the child and the child will be instantly granted US citizenship. We went through this here exhaustively some time ago. I could find the exact law,if I felt like poring through the old files again.

    The law was mostly used by US servicemen who fathered a child overseas and wanted to bring the child here. It would also apply to a US citizen mother who couldn’t pass BIRTH CITIZENSHIP because of age or residency. We are not arguing such a child is eligiblle to be President. We are arguing that since that chiid would easily gain citizenship as a legitimate right, there would be no need to commit fraud to gain citizenship.

    Is that clear or do i have to say it again?

  299. avatar
    Scientist April 17, 2011 at 6:44 pm #

    Suranis: I thought McCain was born to 2 US citizens abroad, thereby making him an NBC.

    He was and is. My post above discusses someone born abroad to a single citizen parent who does not become a citizen at birth, but is eligiible to do so automatically as soon as they arrive in the US.

  300. avatar
    Suranis April 17, 2011 at 6:47 pm #

    Scientist: He was and is.My post above discusses someone born abroad to a single citizen parent who does not become a citizen at birth, but is eligiible to do so automatically as soon as they arrive in the US.

    Thanks Scientist.

  301. avatar
    obsolete April 17, 2011 at 6:51 pm #

    my

    nc1: Obama would not have been a citizen at birth if he was born abroad – do you get it?

    I think you don’t get it- my point was this; Obama was a citizen (not natural born). The only advantage to being “natural born” is the ability to be President.
    So you must be positing that Obama’s family decided that him being a citizen wasn’t enough- it was so likely that he could be elected President one day (if he were only eligible) that his family decided to break several laws and put a lot of effort and deception into fraudulently making him “natural-born”. Again, for the sole purpose of allowing a half-black baby in 1960 to run for President in 50 years.

    That is ridiculous.

    Conversation caught on the “B” side of the “Whitey” tape:
    Obama’s mom: “You know, little Barry is so smart and Presidential at six weeks! I shouldn’t have gone to Africa and had him- I ruined his chances to be President!”

    Obama’s Grandmother: “Don’t worry darling! I have an idea- even though there is no record of crimes by anyone in our family, I will come up with a genius criminal mastermind plan to save the day!, Why, it would only involve bribing & threatening a mere dozens of officials over many years- it’s a cinch!”

    Obama’s Mom: “Thanks! Now I need to go pose nude for photos and read Marx to little Barry before his nap.”

    Additionally, if they were so smart as to pull this off, and having a potential President in the family was so important to them, why weren’t they smart enough to just stay home and have the baby at their local hospital?

  302. avatar
    Rickey April 17, 2011 at 6:54 pm #

    nc1: Obama would not have been a citizen at birth if he was born abroad – do you get it?

    I sometimes have a difficult time deciding if you are deliberately obtuse or if you really do not comprehend simple declarative sentences.

    1. No one – as far as I can determine – has claimed that Obama would have been a natural-born citizen if he was born in Kenya.

    2. Donald Trump made the claim that Obama’s grandparents falsely reported his birth in Hawaii – not because they wanted him to be eligible to be President, but because they wanted him to be a U.S. citizen.

    3. If Obama was in fact born in Kenya, or anywhere else outside of the United States, he would have been granted U.S. citizenship when his mother came to the U.S. with him. Stanley Ann could have been 14 years old when she gave birth overseas and this still would be the case.

    4. It therefore follows that Trump’s claim is false. Obama’s grandparents had absolutely no motivation to falsely report his birth as having taken place in Hawaii, unless they were already planning for him to run for President some day. Do you really believe that was on their minds?

  303. avatar
    obsolete April 17, 2011 at 6:55 pm #

    obsolete: think you don’t get it- my point was this; Obama was a citizen (not natural born).

    I mean this, of course, if the African birth of Obama was true. For the sake of my argument…

  304. avatar
    Keith April 17, 2011 at 7:00 pm #

    Suranis: I thought McCain was born to 2 US citizens abroad, thereby making him an NBC. Could be wrong of course.

    McCain’s specific circumstance has never been challenged. However according to the statute you quoted above:


    ”A child born abroad to two U.S. citizen parents acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under section 301(c) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) provided that one of the parents had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions prior to the child’s birth.

    I assert that neither parent had a residence in the US or one of its outlying possessions prior to the child’s birth. The Canal Zone was not an outlying possession. Furthermore, even if the CZ is considered an outlying possession for the purposes of this act, the child is acquiring “citizenship at birth under section 301(c) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA)” which is an act of Congress which means it is a ‘naturalization’ process. There can be no such thing as a ‘naturalized’ Natural Born Citizen, you are one or the other.

    I reiterate, this has never been challenged, so my opinion may, in future, be ‘refudiated’. If so, I would not be disappointed in the least.

    I do not think that McCain should be ‘punished’ because his parents choose to serve their country, the circumstances of his birth to serving members of the US Military at their official overseas posting should not bar him from serving his country as President. I just don’t think that the authors of the Constitution and its amendments foresaw such a circumstance, and McCain unfortunately falls into that hole.

    It is worth noting that Congress agrees with me that if there is a question about his about his eligibility, there shouldn’t be: it unanimously passed a non-binding resolution that it would not challenge his eligibility should he win the election. It is also worth noting that AFAIK, Congress did not see the need to pass such a resolution in favor of Barrack Obama.

  305. avatar
    nc1 April 17, 2011 at 7:06 pm #

    Keith: Except for the continuous prattling on about a law that didn’t exist 1961 allowing anyone’ to get a birth certificate from Hawai’i even though they were born overseas.

    So deduct a point for that and he’s back where he/she was: at minus 100 (or something like that).

    Fraudulent home birth registration.

  306. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 17, 2011 at 7:09 pm #

    nc1: Fraudulent home birth registration.

    Sorry, ruled out by physician signature.

  307. avatar
    Scientist April 17, 2011 at 7:13 pm #

    nc1: Fraudulent home birth registration.

    Explain why they would commit a fraud when he was entitled to be naturalized upon arrival in the US. You can’t.

    Doc-What is the point of allowing someone who endlessly repeats lies? Is that what this site should facilitate? Stop this person, please.

  308. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 17, 2011 at 7:14 pm #

    Rickey: No one “ as far as I can determine “ has claimed that Obama would have been a natural-born citizen if he was born in Kenya.

    Some have made that argument, saying that the Obama marriage was null and void because Obama Sr. was already married (bigamous marriages are null ab inito in Hawaii). If Stanley Ann Dunham were not married, then Barack Obama II would have been born a citizen of the US under the statues existing in 1961 no matter where he was born, and the majority of scholars say that those born citizens are natural born citizens.

  309. avatar
    Lil' Red April 17, 2011 at 7:15 pm #

    Rickey: 3. If Obama was in fact born in Kenya, or anywhere else outside of the United States, he would have been granted U.S. citizenship when his mother came to the U.S. with him. Stanley Ann could have been 14 years old when she gave birth overseas and this still would be the case.

    If you’re going to accuse someone of being obtuse, you would do well to first look in the mirror.

    The law in force at the time of Obama’s birth was 8 USC 1601 –Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952. Under that Act, Stanley Ann was too young to pass citizenship to a child born overseas. Obama’s only citizenship would have been British citizenship. She could have brought him back into the U.S. as her British citizen child, but he would not have acquired U.S. citizenship simply because she brought him into the U.S. with her.

    If you have evidence of some law to the contrary, please present it.

    Therefore, Donald Trump’s suggestion that Obama’s grandparents would have been motivated to file a fraudulent birth registration in order to gain him U.S. citizenship is plausable.

  310. avatar
    Suranis April 17, 2011 at 7:16 pm #

    nc1: Fraudulent home birth registration.

    Would have taken a lot longer than 4 days. Sworn affidavit and all.

    You keep running into that pesky time issue all the time. You scenario is physically impossible under hawai’in law at the time. It could not be done.

  311. avatar
    Scientist April 17, 2011 at 7:18 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Some have made that argument, saying that the Obama marriage was null and void because Obama Sr. was already married (bigamous marriages are null abnito in Hawaii). If Stanley Ann Dunham were not married, then Barack Obama II would have been born a citizen of the US under the statues existing in 1961 no matter where he was born, and the majority of scholars say that those born citizens are natural born citizens.

    So there are 2 possibilities if born in Kenya:

    1. Marriage is void-Citizen at birth
    2. Marriage is vallid- Citizen upon arrival in the US

    Either way a citizen; no fraud required.

    Can we ban further menttion of “theories” that have been endlessly repeated and don’t make sense? Let nc1 come up with a new ridiculous “theory” and we’ll eagerly tackle that one

  312. avatar
    Scientist April 17, 2011 at 7:20 pm #

    Lil' Red: The law in force at the time of Obama’s birth was 8 USC 1601 –Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952. Under that Act, Stanley Ann was too young to pass citizenship to a child born overseas. Obama’s only citizenship would have been British citizenship. She could have brought him back into the U.S. as her British citizen child, but he would not have acquired U.S. citizenship simply because she brought him into the U.S. with her.
    If you have evidence of some law to the contrary, please present it.

    Yes he would have acquired ciitizenship upon arrriival in tthe US, under section 320. We covered at length many moons ago. You’re late to the party.

  313. avatar
    nc1 April 17, 2011 at 7:40 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Sorry, ruled out by physician signature.

    Really? Have you seen the document – what is the name of attending physician? Who signed the document – a physician or a grandma?

    Anything coming from Dr. Fukino cannot be trusted – it must be verified.

    We know that the official birthplace story (Kapiolani Hospital) is a myth. Abercrombie mentioned “actually written” note.

    This was one of the points Orly mentioned in the most recent CNN interview. Even Fukino felt the need to describe the document she saw as half handwritten.

  314. avatar
    G April 17, 2011 at 7:45 pm #

    nc1: Really? Have you seen the document – what is the name of attending physician? Who signed the document – a physician or a grandma? Anything coming from Dr. Fukino cannot be trusted – it must be verified.We know that the official birthplace story (Kapiolani Hospital) is a myth. Abercrombie mentioned “actually written” note. This was one of the points Orly mentioned in the most recent CNN interview. Even Fukino felt the need to describe the document she saw as half handwritten.

    Keep living in denial, there NC1. As usual, you are wrong about everything you say.

  315. avatar
    Suranis April 17, 2011 at 7:45 pm #

    Ok, now NC1 is just getting pathetic.

  316. avatar
    Scientist April 17, 2011 at 7:48 pm #

    nc1: Anything coming from nc1 cannot be trusted – it must be verified.

    Fixed it

  317. avatar
    Lil' Red April 17, 2011 at 7:53 pm #

    Scientist: Yes he would have acquired ciitizenship upon arrriival in tthe US, under section 320. We covered at length many moons ago.

    Really? Section 320 (aka 8 USC 1431) is only applicable when the alien parent is naturalized.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001431—-000-notes.html

    It’s easy to arrive at the wrong conclusion when you don’t read the law you’re trying to apply.

  318. avatar
    nc1 April 17, 2011 at 8:07 pm #

    Scientist: Explain why they would commit a fraud when he was entitled to be naturalized upon arrival in the US.You can’t.

    Doc-What is the point of allowing someone who endlessly repeats lies? Is that what this site should facilitate?Stop this person, please.

    I am not repeating lies – just giving you my interpretation of a possible scenario based on available information. I don’t have to know all details about Obama’s birth to understand that the official birthplace story is a lie.

    DoH would not confirm a direct question about issuing a copy of birth certificate to Obama on June 6, 2007. Their behavior makes no sense if the official birthplace story were true.

    When Dr. Fukino was the DoH director she had the authority to release the COLB to the public after the copy was published on Obama campaign’s web site. If there was nothing to hide and the official copy would have been the same as document presented by Obama’s campaign – nobody would be able to challenge such a decision.

    She never claimed that the document on file backs the Kapiolani Hospital birth.

    How difficult is it to prove birthers wrong? Orly went on national TV and accused Obama of fraud. If her accusations are false Obama’s team ought to start legal action against her. Obama once said: “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun”.

    Was he taling about a water squirt pistol?

  319. avatar
    Suranis April 17, 2011 at 8:12 pm #

    Lil' Red: It’s easy to arrive at the wrong conclusion when you don’t read the law you’re trying to apply.

    And its easy to be a smartass when the link you provide does not even go to the section of the law you are trying to debunk, just in case some casual viewer will actually click on the link (like you obviously didn’t) and perhaps actually find that you are full of crap.

    For the record that link is to a list of amendments. Come back when you actually have the real section 320. or anything pertaining to naturalization of infants.

    Idiot.

  320. avatar
    nc1 April 17, 2011 at 8:24 pm #

    Scientist: Fixed it

    You misssed the fact that (unlike Obots) Obama’s critics ask for verification of facts – I have no problem with you or anybody else verifying correctness of my understanding of Obama birthplace circumstances. I wish US government officials were not as corrupt – this issue could have been resolved long time ago.

  321. avatar
    Suranis April 17, 2011 at 8:26 pm #

    nc1: I am not repeating lies – just giving you my interpretation of a possible scenario based on available information.I don’t have to know all details about Obama’s birth to understand that the official birthplace story is a lie.

    Yes you have all the details. I have personally gave given you information 3 times over and I have only been posting here a couple of weeks, and you keep coming back with the same stupid ‘questions’

    DoH would not confirm a direct question about issuing a copy of birth certificate to Obama on June 6, 2007. Their behavior makes no sense if the official birthplace story were true.

    The did however confirm a copy was requested, but could not say to whom. But only members of Obamas family could request one. That’s you lying by omission.

    When Dr. Fukino was the DoH director she had the authority to release the COLB to the public after the copy was published on Obama campaign’s web site. If there was nothing to hide and the official copy would have been the same as document presented by Obama’s campaign – nobody would be able to challenge such a decision.

    No she did not have the authority. Hawai’i and state privacy laws. That’s you lying by fact.

    She never claimed that the document on file backs the Kapiolani Hospital birth.

    Her spokesperson did. Her Boss, Republican Governor Lingle did. Fukino just said he was born in Hawai’i and is a NATURAL BORN AMERICAN CITIZEN.

    That’s you lying by stupidity.

    How difficult is it to prove birthers wrong?Orly went on national TV and accused Obama of fraud.If her accusations are false Obama’s team ought to start legal action against her.Obama once said: “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun”.

    Why bother? Orly made a show of herself in that interview. Birtherism has done nothing but help his campaign since 2008 and has done nothing to harm Obama. The widely anticipated Arizona birther law will do more to hurt Republican candidates than Obama as it was drafted to remove any document Obama has, which naturally cuts out any document any other candidate might have too. Especially since the Sec of State, a lifelong republican, has said he would accept a physical copy Obamas COLB as shown.

    I can actually see there not being a primary in Arizona because of all the lawsuits.

    Was he taking about a water squirt pistol?

    Why bring one when your opponents are busy shooting themselves in the foot with their own guns? Much better to stand there and smile.

  322. avatar
    Robert Clark April 17, 2011 at 8:46 pm #

    Scientist: … The President BELIEVES he was born in Kapi’olani…

    The problem is we don’t even know that since he won’t state on the record that he was.

    Bob

  323. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 17, 2011 at 8:56 pm #

    Suranis: I have personally gave given you information 3 times over and I have only been posting here a couple of weeks, and you keep coming back with the same stupid questions’

    They say that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

  324. avatar
    Suranis April 17, 2011 at 8:56 pm #

    nc1: You misssed the fact that (unlike Obots) Obama’s critics ask for verification of facts

    Sure, that’s why you keep repeating that its really easy for someone born in a foring country to get a hawai’in birth certificate, despite the fact that in 4 years of trying no birther has ever come up with someone that actually did it. And you kept repeating the law that you said proved that fact until it had to be yelled into your ear that that law was not passed till the 1980s. And even then you still tried to claim it still proved he could have.

    And don’t you dare bring up Sun Yet Sen. That was 110 years ago, under no law that existed when Obama was born and the laws were changed afterwords to prevent that happening again. Sen was 50 years in his grave when Obama first drew breath.

    Robert Clark: The problem is we don’t even know that since he won’t state on the record that he was.

    He put it into his autobiography and sent a letter to Kaapiolani and allowed it to be read at their celebrations AND be used for fund-raising. How much more on the record do you want? Carved onto his stomach, maybe?

    Some questions are just so pointless and stupid so as to not deserve an answer.

  325. avatar
    Suranis April 17, 2011 at 8:58 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: They say that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

    Very true, but I keep thinking of someone that might be here for the first time and actually think we can’t answer her endlessly repeated and endlessly debunked questions.

  326. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 17, 2011 at 9:01 pm #

    nc1: You misssed the fact that (unlike Obots) Obama’s critics ask for verification of facts – I have no problem with you or anybody else verifying correctness of my understanding of Obama birthplace circumstances.I wish US government officials were not as corrupt – this issue could have been resolved long time ago.

    ahh yes the all popular government officials must be corrupt claim. So you just gave yourself another out. Even if you had confirmation you would still claim it wasn’t enough to have confirmations triple sourced because the source would then be claimed to be corrupt. But enough of this NC you’re a liar. No amount of confirmation would matter since you already said Obama wouldn’t be eligible because of his father’s citizenship.

  327. avatar
    Daniel April 17, 2011 at 9:22 pm #

    nc1: You misssed the fact that (unlike Obots) Obama’s critics ask for verification of facts – I have no problem with you or anybody else verifying correctness of my understanding of Obama birthplace circumstances.I wish US government officials were not as corrupt – this issue could have been resolved long time ago.

    Noooooooooo…

    The problem is that you won’t accept the plethora of facts that serve to verify Obama’s birth place as Hawaii. In essence you simply refuse to acknowledge any fact which serves to disagree with your preconceived position. The end result is that you have no facts, only conjecture arising from supposition.

    Birthers don’t ask for verification of facts. They demand their delusions be treated as fact. There is a very great difference between the two.

  328. avatar
    Daniel April 17, 2011 at 9:23 pm #

    Robert Clark: The problem is we don’t even know that since he won’t state on the record that he was.

    Bob

    Too bad for you there’s no requirement for him to do so.

  329. avatar
    Robert Clark April 17, 2011 at 9:28 pm #

    Scientist: Can you tell me how many times an actual reporter has asked this question?

    I found two mainstream sources that say the White House declined to comment on Gov. Abercrombie’s attempt to prove Obama’s Hawaiian birth:

    Hawaii’s Governor Takes On Birthers’By SHERYL GAY STOLBERG
    Published: December 24, 2010
    “The governor, a Democrat and former congressman, said he has initiated conversations with the state’s attorney general and the chief of its Health Department about how he can release more explicit documentation of Mr. Obama’s birth on Aug. 4, 1961, at Kapiolani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital. He said he has done so of his own accord, without consulting the White House, which declined to comment.”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/25/us/25hawaii.html

    Obama run in 2012 may cause boom in birth certificate requests.
    Posted on January 3, 2011
    BY GREG WILES
    “… Abercrombie stoked discussion of the Birther issue again in late December when he unexpectedly brought the subject up with a Los Angeles Times’ reporter. He subsequently spoke with the New York Times, saying he was looking for ways to release additional evidence of Obama’s birth on Aug. 4, 1961 at what is now Kapiolani Medical Center for Women and Children.
    “Let’s put this particular canard to rest,” Abercrombie told the New York Times.
    Dela Cruz said she wasn’t aware of anyone from the governor’s office talking with the White House about the issue. A White House spokesman did not respond to questions, including whether officials had contacted Abercrombie’s office after the articles appeared.”
    http://watchdog.org/7752/obama-run-in-2012-may-cause-boom-in-birth-certificate-requests/

    Note that both of these articles appeared after that letter was written in 2009 to Kapiolani hospital which Abercrombie read at the hospital’s centennial on video. The White House would not comment on the record on Abercrombie’s attempt to show Obama was born at Kapiolani even though supposedly the White House had already written a letter saying so.

    Bob

  330. avatar
    Robert Clark April 17, 2011 at 9:37 pm #

    Suranis: He put it into his autobiography and sent a letter to Kaapiolani and allowed it to be read at their celebrations AND be used for fund-raising. How much more on the record do you want? Carved onto his stomach, maybe?Some questions are just so pointless and stupid so as to not deserve an answer.

    As I mentioned already, he never said in his autobiography he was born at Kapiolani. He only said he said he saw his birth certificate.
    The White House still has not confirmed or denied that it wrote that letter to Kapiolani hospital or even commented on it after two years.

    Bob

  331. avatar
    Rickey April 17, 2011 at 9:54 pm #

    Keith:
    I assert that neither parent had a residence in the US or one of its outlying possessions prior to the child’s birth.

    I disagree with that. An overseas military base has never been considered to be a military family’s legal residence. If it were, soldiers and sailors stationed overseas would not be eligible to vote.

    I assume that the McCains had a residence of record in the United States, and I’m sure that would have been considered their legal residence when their son was born in Panama.

  332. avatar
    Suranis April 17, 2011 at 9:58 pm #

    Robert Clark: As I mentioned already, he never said in his autobiography he was born at Kapiolani. He only said he said he saw his birth certificate

    He did actually. He writes about being driven past it as a child and being told that that was the hospital where he was born.

  333. avatar
    Rickey April 17, 2011 at 10:58 pm #

    Regarding the INA, Lil’ Red may have a point. It appears that the automatic citizenship wording in Section 320 was not included until 2000. The original language of 320 seems to say that the child’s U.S. citizenship doesn’t kick in automatically until and unless the alien parent naturalizes. See here and scroll down to Section 320:

    http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED205670.pdf

    Comments, anyone? Am I missing something?

  334. avatar
    misha April 17, 2011 at 11:31 pm #

    Rickey: Regarding the INA, Lil’ Red may have a point…Comments, anyone? Am I missing something?

    Yes, you are. The Kenya birth scenario is physically impossible:

    http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/03/obama-born-in-kenya-no.html

  335. avatar
    G April 17, 2011 at 11:46 pm #

    Robert Clark: I found two mainstream sources that say the White House declined to comment on Gov. Abercrombie’s attempt to prove Obama’s Hawaiian birth:

    Yeah, declining to comment is simply not giving the issue any attention.

    I think that is what bothers you whiny birthers the most. You can’t stand that the President and his Admin simply ignores you completely, except for occasionally cracking jokes to mock you.

    Simply put, they don’t take your nonsense seriously. Neither do we. There is no need to dignify birther questions with answers. Sit and spin. Sit and spin.

  336. avatar
    Keith April 17, 2011 at 11:52 pm #

    Robert Clark: Scientist: … The President BELIEVES he was born in Kapi’olani…

    The problem is we don’t even know that since he won’t state on the record that he was.

    Bob

    A signed letter published to the world is just about as ‘on the record’ as you can get.

  337. avatar
    Keith April 17, 2011 at 11:57 pm #

    Rickey: If it were, soldiers and sailors stationed overseas would not be eligible to vote.

    Sure they would.

    I’m permanently resident in Australia and I vote, and I’m not even in the military.

  338. avatar
    Suranis April 18, 2011 at 12:05 am #

    Rickey:
    Regarding the INA, Lil’ Red may have a point. It appears that the automatic citizenship wording in Section 320 was not included until 2000. The original language of 320 seems to say that the child’s U.S. citizenship doesn’t kick in automatically until and unless the alien parent naturalizes. See here and scroll down to Section 320:

    http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED205670.pdf

    Comments, anyone? Am I missing something?

    Thanks for the link Rickey. For anyone else its on page 118 to 119 of the PDF. took me ages to find it.

    Upon reading it, the section that deals with the naturalization of a child of a citizen parent and born outside the United States is actually section 322 on page 119, and its pretty clear that the child would be eligible for naturalization if under the age of 18 and the parent is residing permanently in the US, and the child is residing with the parent.

    So yeah, reading this, its another birther Mythbusted.

  339. avatar
    nc1 April 18, 2011 at 12:13 am #

    Suranis: Yes you have all the details. I have personally gave given you information 3 times over and I have only been posting here a couple of weeks, and you keep coming back with the same stupid questions’

    The did however confirm a copy was requested, but could not say to whom. But only members of Obamas family could request one. That’s you lying by omission.

    No she did not have the authority. Hawai’i and state privacy laws. That’s you lying by fact.

    Her spokesperson did. Her Boss, Republican Governor Lingle did. Fukino just said he was born in Hawai’i and is a NATURAL BORN AMERICAN CITIZEN.

    That’s you lying by stupidity.

    Why bother? Orly made a show of herself in that interview. Birtherism has done nothing but help his campaign since 2008 and has done nothing to harm Obama. The widely anticipated Arizona birther law will do more to hurt Republican candidates than Obama as it was drafted to remove any document Obama has, which naturally cuts out any document any other candidate might have too. Especially since the Sec of State, a lifelong republican, has said he would accept a physical copy Obamas COLB as shown.

    I can actually see there not being a primary in Arizona because of all the lawsuits.

    Why bring one when your opponents are busy shooting themselves in the foot with their own guns? Much better to stand there and smile.

    ==============================================================

    It is not my fault that you cannot distinguish between the following:
    * a request for copy of birth certificate (by a person who has a tangible interest, in this case Obama)
    * request for confirmation that a document has been issued to Obama (could be asked by anyone)

    I was referring to the second item when I said that DoH refuses to confirm that DoH issued copy of birth certificate to Obama on June 6, 2007. It does not mean that this was a request for issuing the copy of COLB to a person without tangible interest.

    If DoH issued a COLB to Obama they had to record this transaction (and payment received). The request was made for confirmation that the transaction took place on that specific date – not for the content of the document.

    Got it now?

    Using the same UIPA law the AP writer Mark Niesse was able to obtain the contact information about people who inquired DoH about Obama’s status.

    When Dr. Fukino made a legal statement that Obama is a natural-born American citizen, documents used by her to come to that conclusion must be released to the public upon request. Government officials cannot issue legal announcements while hiding evidence to support their statements – this is the main reason why UIPA law has been passed: government cannot operate in secrecy from citizens/residents.

    This is the same kind of government that in Ireland decided to screw honest taxpayers by taking the obligation to pay debts incurred by private banks. Did you have a chance to vote on this issue? Was there a public debate (prior to government signing for this obligation)?

    The biggest difference between me and Obots is this: I do not trust government officials by default.

  340. avatar
    Rickey April 18, 2011 at 12:14 am #

    Suranis:

    Upon reading it, the section that deals with the naturalization of a child of a citizen parent and born outside the United States is actually section 322 on page 119, and its pretty clear that the child would be eligible for naturalization if under the age of 18 and the parent is residing permanently in the US, and the child is residing with the parent.

    So yeah, reading this, its another birther Mythbusted.

    Thanks for that. It had been posted here that Section 320 was the operative section, so that was as far as I went.

  341. avatar
    Rickey April 18, 2011 at 12:26 am #

    Keith: Sure they would.
    I’m permanently resident in Australia and I vote, and I’m not even in the military.

    I was brain-dead when I made the comment about voting. Can I assume that your ballot comes from the state and district where you last were registered in the U.S.?

    Nevertheless, an overseas duty station is not a military person’s legal residence. Everyone in the military has a stateside “home of record” in his or her service record, even if their dependents live overseas with them. If they don’t actually own a home in one of the states, they will use the address of parents.

  342. avatar
    Suranis April 18, 2011 at 12:29 am #

    nc1:
    It is not my fault that you cannot distinguish between the following:
    *a request for copy of birth certificate (by a person who has a tangible interest, in this case Obama)
    *request for confirmation that a document has been issued to Obama (could be asked by anyone)

    I was referring to the second item when I said that DoH refuses to confirm that DoH issued copy of birth certificate to Obama on June 6, 2007.It does not mean that this was a request for issuing the copy of COLB to a person without tangible interest.

    If DoH issued a COLB to Obama they had to record this transaction (and payment received). The request was made for confirmation that the transaction took place on that specific date – not for the content of the document.

    Got it now?

    And its not my fault that you cant grasp that they could not confirm that Obama requested the document in 2007 nor specific details, but they could and did confirm that it WAS requested in 2007.

    Which is all reasonable people need to verify the thing is genuine as a valid BC was requested before the Image was released by the Obama campaign. Therefore there was no need to fake a BC image.

    And the date stamp on the back is self verifying, just like the rest of the Birth certificate is. That’s under federal law and the US Constitution.

    And just so you know, the bank guarantee was presented before Parliament, debated in Parliament and passed by a legal vote of our Parliament. So yes we had a vote through our representatives.

  343. avatar
    G April 18, 2011 at 12:37 am #

    nc1: It is not my fault that you cannot distinguish between the following:

    It is all your fault. You have an utter lack of comprehension on the issues at hand. So, yes, it is absolutely 100% your fault that you always get it wrong and you repeat the same debunked lies over and over and over again.

    nc1: When Dr. Fukino made a legal statement that Obama is a natural-born American citizen, documents used by her to come to that conclusion must be released to the public upon request. Government officials cannot issue legal announcements while hiding evidence to support their statements – this is the main reason why UIPA law has been passed: government cannot operate in secrecy from citizens/residents.

    Doesn’t work that way. But you’ve been told that repeatedly.

    Put your money where your mouth is and put in a UIPA request yourself. What are you afraid of? Why are you too lazy to do something that simple if this *really* is an important issue for you? Is it because you know you are too incompetent to handle that?

    Of course, you’ll actually have to follow the UIPA request instructions properly…something that crazy BZ couldn’t seem to do right. Since you’ve demonstrated such a consistent problem with basic reading comprehension, you’ll probably screw up the whole thing and then cry about it and blame everyone else for your ineptitude except yourself.

    nc1: The biggest difference between me and Obots is this: I do not trust government officials by default.

    Um…yeah… your being excessively paranoid delusional is nothing to brag about….

  344. avatar
    Scientist April 18, 2011 at 1:08 am #

    Robert Clark: I found two mainstream sources that say the White House declined to comment on Gov. Abercrombie’s attempt to prove Obama’s Hawaiian birth:

    That wasn’t my question. You said the White House refused to comment on the letter to Kapi’olani. I asked whether they had been asked to comment. In fact, regarding the letter, they have not said “No comment” because no one has asked.

  345. avatar
    Scientist April 18, 2011 at 1:13 am #

    Suranis: Upon reading it, the section that deals with the naturalization of a child of a citizen parent and born outside the United States is actually section 322 on page 119, and its pretty clear that the child would be eligible for naturalization if under the age of 18 and the parent is residing permanently in the US, and the child is residing with the parent.
    So yeah, reading this, its another birther Mythbusted.

    I apologize for citing the wrong section. I said I didn;t have time to consult the 1952 statute, It is Section 322, not 320, which is the section currently.

    The bottom line is there would have been no need for the supposed “fraud” to gain citizenship. In fact the “fraud” would have risked losing the citizenship that the child would have been entitled to, not to mention exposing the one who committed it to criminal sanctions.

  346. avatar
    Scientist April 18, 2011 at 1:38 am #

    Robert Clark: The White House still has not confirmed or denied that it wrote that letter to Kapiolani hospital or even commented on it after two years.

    Who has asked them to?

  347. avatar
    James M April 18, 2011 at 4:23 am #

    Scientist: Who has asked them to?

    There are only twelve birthers. They can’t be expected to do *everything*.

  348. avatar
    The Magic M April 18, 2011 at 4:24 am #

    > The problem is we don’t even know that since he won’t state on the record that he was.

    You didn’t read his letter to Kapiolani, did you?

    All you can resort to when the facts fly in your face are your typical “confirmations of confirmations of confirmations”.

    He published his COLB and Hawaii says it’s authentic, yet you ask for another “confirmation” that he actually requested it.

    He sent a letter to Kapiolani, Kapiolani published it, yet you ask for another confirmation that he really wrote the letter and Kapiolani really thinks he was born there.

    If he presented your desired “original long form BC” tomorrow (which you said will “end it all”), you’ll be asking for confirmation from Hawaii that this really is his long form, that he requested it, that it was sent, who sent it, who hired the guy who sent it, who hired the guy who hired the guy who sent it, who received it, who made the scan, who published it online, who at Google was responsible for taking it into their search index, who was the mail man who delivered the BC, who signed the driver’s license of the mail man who delivered the BC and so on.
    Just so you can still make up your “… won’t confirm that …” lies. Keep living in your delusional world, I pity you fool.

  349. avatar
    nc1 April 18, 2011 at 4:27 am #

    Scientist: Who has asked them to?

    WND’s White House correspondent Les Kinsolving asked Gibbs about it in 2009:
    “…While you and the President were overseas on July the 7th, there was on the Internet a copy of a letter on White House letterhead dated January the 24th, 2009, with the signature “Barack Obama,” which stated “The place of my birth was Honolulu’s Kapi’olani Medical Center.” And my question is, can you verify this letter? Or if not, would you tell us which Hawaiian hospital he was born in, since Kapi’olani, which used to publicize this, now refuses to confirm?…”
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Briefing-by-White-House-Press-Secretary-Robert-Gibbs-7-13-09/

    For those of you who did not follow the topic in 2009, Kapiolani web site displayed a copy of the letter; it was an HTML document, not a scan of the actual letter. Soon after WND started asking questions about its authenticity the document was removed from Kapiolani’s web page.

    The following link shows the image of that document:
    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=103633

  350. avatar
    James M April 18, 2011 at 4:33 am #

    misha: Yes, you are. The Kenya birth scenario is physically impossible:

    http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/03/obama-born-in-kenya-no.html

    Oh, I don’t agree that it was “impossible”, just highly unlikely given certain assumptions about the timeline. After all, Obama Sr. got from Mombasa to Hawaii and back more than once. There has been a railway from Nairobi to Mombasa since the 19th century. To me it’s far simpler than being “impossible”. It simply didn’t happen, as there is no evidence that Dunham ever left the country in 1961.

    I’d steer clear of this whole “impossible to go to Kenya” argument, because it might play into some birthers’ hands.

  351. avatar
    Expelliarmus April 18, 2011 at 5:05 am #

    Robert Clark: The White House still has not confirmed or denied that it wrote that letter to Kapiolani hospital or even commented on it after two years.

    The letter stands for itself.

    It is signed by Barack Obama and in it he explicitly states that Kapiolani Medical center is “the place of my birth.”

    A written letter doesn’t need “confirmation.”

  352. avatar
    nc1 April 18, 2011 at 5:07 am #

    Suranis: And its not my fault that you cant grasp that they could not confirm that Obama requested the document in 2007 nor specific details, but they could and did confirm that it WAS requested in 2007.

    Which is all reasonable people need to verify the thing is genuine as a valid BC was requested before the Image was released by the Obama campaign. Therefore there was no need to fake a BC image.

    And the date stamp on the back is self verifying, just like the rest of the Birth certificate is. That’s under federal law and the US Constitution.

    And just so you know, the bank guarantee was presented before Parliament, debated in Parliament and passed by a legal vote of our Parliament. So yes we had a vote through our representatives.

    Could you provide a link to the story describing DoH confirmation that Obama’s COLB was issued in 2007?
    Artifacts on a forged document prove nothing.

    I see, your wise representatives signed you up for slavery to German bondholders.

  353. avatar
    nc1 April 18, 2011 at 5:23 am #

    Expelliarmus: The letter stands for itself.

    It is signed by Barack Obama and in it he explicitly states that Kapiolani Medical center is “the place of my birth.”

    A written letter doesn’t need “confirmation.”

    There were two versions of the letter presented to the public. On top of it Abercrombie read different text than what was shown in the letter.

    Now you know why people became suspicious about its authenticity. I think that this was Abercrombie’s idea, to use Kapiolani centennial celebration to silence the birthers.

    This would explain his eagerness to search for birth certificate once he became the governor. However, he was punk’d by Obama.

  354. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny April 18, 2011 at 5:23 am #

    James M: After all, Obama Sr. got from Mombasa to Hawaii and back more than once.

    James, are you trying to stir up the spirits of the birfers, by feeding them nonsense? Or did you forget that Obama Sr did NOT live in Mombasa?

    As for there being a railroad between Nairobi and Mombasa, technically you are right, because the railroad from Mombasa to Kampala in 1899 reached Nairobi, where a depot was built to house the Headquarters of the Lunatic Express (basically because it was so cold there that there was no chance of catching malaria) – only at the time, no one was living there, it was still wilderness.

    Travelling by train from Nairobi to Mombasa is still quite an adventure. It takes more than eleven hours, and thtrains run three times a week.
    http://www.eastafricashuttles.com/train.htm

  355. avatar
    Suranis April 18, 2011 at 5:58 am #

    nc1: WND’s White House correspondent Les Kinsolving asked Gibbs about it in 2009:
    “…While you and the President were overseas on July the 7th, there was on the Internet a copy of a letter on White House letterhead dated January the 24th, 2009, with the signature “Barack Obama,” which stated “The place of my birth was Honolulu’s Kapi’olani Medical Center.”And my question is, can you verify this letter?Or if not, would you tell us which Hawaiian hospital he was born in, since Kapi’olani, which used to publicize this, now refuses to confirm?…”
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Briefing-by-White-House-Press-Secretary-Robert-Gibbs-7-13-09/

    For those of you who did not follow the topic in 2009, Kapiolani web site displayed a copy of the letter; it was an HTML document, not a scan of the actual letter.Soon after WND started asking questions about its authenticity the document was removed from Kapiolani’s web page.

    The following link shows the image of that document:
    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=103633

    I notice you deliberatly decided NOT to include Gibbs answer to the question. Lets take the FULL account shall we?

    “Q Thank you very much. Just two questions.

    MR. GIBBS: It was probably only one when I passed over you the first time. (Laughter.)

    Q Six or seven.

    MR. GIBBS: All right, all right, easy on the first two rows. Les, you can’t sit in the second row and complain about all the questions in the second row. You got to go like
    way back and — I’m kidding, go ahead.

    Q I appreciate it. While you and the President were overseas on July the 7th, there was on the Internet a copy of a letter on White House letterhead dated January the 24th, 2009, with the signature “Barack Obama,” which stated “The place of my birth was Honolulu’s Kapi’olani Medical Center.” And my question is, can you verify this letter? Or if not, would you tell us which Hawaiian hospital he was born in, since Kapi’olani, which used to publicize this, now refuses to confirm?

    MR. GIBBS: Goodness gracious. I’m going to be, like, in year four describing where it is the President was born. I don’t have the letter at my fingertips, obviously, and I don’t know the name of the exact hospital.

    Q Can you check on this?

    MR. GIBBS: I will seek to interview whoever brought the President into this world. But can we just — I want to do this once and for all, Lester. Let’s just do this once and for all. You can go on this — I hope you’ll take the time not just to Google “President, January 24, Hawaii hospital, birth” and come up with this letter, but go on the Internet and get the birth certificate, Lester, and put —

    Q It’s not a birth certificate.

    MR. GIBBS: I know. (Laughter.) Just a document from the state of Hawaii denoting the fact that the President was indeed born in the state of Hawaii.

    Q But it doesn’t say where he was born or who the doctor was.

    MR. GIBBS: You know, Lester, I — I want to stay on this for a second, Lester, I want to stay on this for a second, because you’re a smart man, right?

    Q Hypothetical. (Laughter.)

    MR. GIBBS: All right, all right, settle down in here. Only I get to make jokes like that.
    No, Lester, let’s finish this one. Do all of your listeners and the listeners throughout this country the service to which any journalist owes those listeners, and that is the pursuit of the noble truth. And the noble truth is that the President was born in Hawaii, a state of the United States of America. And all of this incredible back-and-forth — I get e-mails today from people who inexplicably can figure out very easily the White House e-mail address, and want proof of where the President was born.

    Lester, the next time you ask me a question I’m going to ask you what reporting you’ve done to demonstrate to your listeners the truth, the certificate, the state, so that they can look to you for that momentous search for the truth, and you can wipe away all the dark clouds and provide them with the knowing clarity that comes with that certainty”

    So, Gibbs answered the guy, straight out that Obama was born in Hawai’i. Which is what the letter said. And the guy was obviously satisfied because he immediately moved onto an unrelated question about a fireworks display.

    Gee, I wonder why you didn’t want to give the full transcript if the exchange. Not.

    Soon after WND started asking questions about its authenticity…

    WND is the same bunch that breathlessly Ran as story with the headline “Hawaii governor can’t find Obama birth certificate!” and then posted a link to a story that said the Hawaii Governor actually HAD had found Obamas birth records, confirmed they exist, but he could not legally release them.

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=252833

    WND are liars. If they say something, the opposite is likely true. And they trust their brand of readership never to verify their stories, as as long as they are saying bad things about the black guy in the white house their readers are happy.

    What was that about Obots not verifying facts?

    nc1: Could you provide a link to the story describing DoH confirmation that Obama’s COLB was issued in 2007?
    Artifacts on a forged document prove nothing.

    I see, your wise representatives signed you up for slavery to German bondholders

    Oh, you’ve probably seen it before and railed at the source because it tells the verifiable truth., and unlike WND its links dont say the opposite of that the story says.

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/13/obamas-birth-certificate/

    “Shortly after we posted this document on June 12, 2008, some PolitiFact readers questioned its authenticity.

    “You have shown a Certificate of Live Birth — not a birth certificate,” one e-mailed. “There is a difference. Look at state laws regarding the completion of both forms.”

    Another wrote: “I have serious doubts about the purported ‘birth certificate’ you were sent.”

    To verify we did indeed have the correct document, we contacted the Hawaii Department of Health, which maintains such records.

    “It’s a valid Hawaii state birth certificate,” spokesman Janice Okubo said June 13, 2008, after we e-mailed her our copy.

    Okubo said a copy of the birth certificate was requested in June 2008, but she wouldn’t specify by whom. But as we know from our attempts to get the record in April 2008, Hawaii law states that only family members can access such records.”

    The June 2008 date is a misprint, obviously, since the date on the BC is June 2007. But it confirms it was ordered before it appeared. Which means the date was confirmed, its just that you don’t want it to have been confirmed.

    You might sneer at me, but you are a slave to your own lies. You might have started out as a funny way to try and get at Obama, but now you can’t get out. When you cant tell the difference between truth, lies eat you up from the inside out. Your existence must be completely miserable. I’ll say a prayer for you, but the only person that can get you out of this spinning nightmare is you.

  356. avatar
    The Magic M April 18, 2011 at 7:02 am #

    > Now you know why people became suspicious about its authenticity.

    No, birthers did.

    Besides, by your own birther logic, since Obama never denied writing that letter, he wrote that letter. Since Kapiolani never denied the contents of the letter are true, they are true.

    It’s funny how you birthers use “tacit admission” in one situation, yet refuse to use it and require “explicit confirmation” in another, only depending where it suits your argument. That’s, again, intellectually dishonest.

  357. avatar
    Scientist April 18, 2011 at 7:38 am #

    nc1: WND’s White House correspondent Les Kinsolving asked Gibbs about it in 2009:
    “…While you and the President were overseas on July the 7th, there was on the Internet a copy of a letter on White House letterhead dated January the 24th, 2009, with the signature “Barack Obama,” which stated “The place of my birth was Honolulu’s Kapi’olani Medical Center.” And my question is, can you verify this letter? Or if not, would you tell us which Hawaiian hospital he was born in, since Kapi’olani, which used to publicize this, now refuses to confirm?…”

    And here is Gibbs’ answer:

    MR. GIBBS: Goodness gracious. I’m going to be, like, in year four describing where it is the President was born. I don’t have the letter at my fingertips, obviously, and I don’t know the name of the exact hospital.

    A perfectly correct answer. Gibbs can’t be expected to know every commemorative letter of the thousands that the White House sends out every year. Such a fixation on picayune crap could only be held by a poster who has never had an actual job, which I’m sure is the case with nc1. Real people with real jobs don’t have time for such nonsense.

    nc1: I think that this was Abercrombie’s idea, to use Kapiolani centennial celebration to silence the birthers.

    Do you think it unusual for a Governor to be present at a ceremony honoring an important instuiution of his state? Especially in a small state like Hawaii? Would it be odd if Gov Cuomo went to a centennial for Sloan-Kettering? Would it be odd if the President wrote a letter stating that his mother got excellent care there?

    The world doesn’t revolve around the birthers. They are a pimple. The only reason I even read your posts is that i have an interest in psychopathology.

  358. avatar
    Robert Clark April 18, 2011 at 7:47 am #

    The Magic M: > The problem is we don’t even know that since he won’t state on the record that he was.You didn’t read his letter to Kapiolani, did you?All you can resort to when the facts fly in your face are your typical “confirmations of confirmations of confirmations”. He published his COLB and Hawaii says it’s authentic, yet you ask for another “confirmation” that he actually requested it.He sent a letter to Kapiolani, Kapiolani published it, yet you ask for another confirmation that he really wrote the letter and Kapiolani really thinks he was born there

    It happens ALL the time that reporters want to ask questions about some information put out by the White House. On some occasions the White House takes the attitude of “No further comment beyond what’s in this release will be made available” when reporters want to ask further questions.
    Cases like for instance when a President puts out a news release that he did not have sex with an intern…

    Bob

  359. avatar
    Suranis April 18, 2011 at 8:07 am #

    Robert Clark: Cases like for instance when a President puts out a news release that he did not have sex with an intern…

    He actually said sexual relations. He never said he had sex with her.

    In this case, President Obama has said he was born in kaap’iolani and the governor who comes from the opposing party said the same thing WHILE SHE WAS CAMPAIGNING FOR OBAMAS OPPONENT.

    Its not like he said I that he never had birtical relations with that hospital or something equally stupid. He was clear and unequivocal and so was his political opponent.

  360. avatar
    Scientist April 18, 2011 at 8:17 am #

    Robert Clark: On some occasions the White House takes the attitude of “No further comment beyond what’s in this release will be made available” when reporters want to ask further questions.

    But that’s not what Gibbs said about the letter to Kapi’olani. He said he didn’t know.

    How do you know where you were born? Do you remember it?

  361. avatar
    The Magic M April 18, 2011 at 8:27 am #

    > Cases like for instance when a President puts out a news release that he did not have sex with an intern…

    What a crappy example. If Clinton had written such a letter, the White House’s willingness or refusal to confirm Clinton wrote it would have no bearing on the contents of the letter.

    So even if the White House had said “yes, Clinton wrote it”, it wouldn’t have made a lie into truth.

    Thus, the WH confirming Obama wrote the letter does not mean its contents are true and, consequently, the WH not confirming Obama wrote the letter does not mean its contents are false (or that Obama didn’t write it).

    You are so dense you can’t even get this simple logic into what you pass off as a brain.

  362. avatar
    Rickey April 18, 2011 at 10:41 am #

    Scientist: I apologize for citing the wrong section.I said I didn;t have time to consult the 1952 statute,It is Section 322, not 320, which is the section currently.

    The bottom line is there would have been no need for the supposed “fraud” to gain citizenship.In fact the “fraud” would have risked losing the citizenship that the child would have been entitled to, not to mention exposing the one who committed it to criminal sanctions.

    The only real difference is that under Section 322 the child’s U.S. citizenship was not automatic – the U.S. citizen parent had to apply for it. However, Section 322 makes it clear that approval was virtually guaranteed.

    I was puzzled because the old wording of Section 320 made no provision for such a child to become a U.S. citizen prior to age 18 if the parents got divorced, or if the alien parent died, etc.

    So under the old Section 320, citizenship for the minor child was automatic when and if the alien parent naturalized. And under Section 322, the minor child would be granted citizenship upon application by the citizen parent.

    So the point has been conclusively made. There was absolutely no motivation for Obama’s grandparents – by all accounts, always law-abiding citizens – to make a false report of birth. As you say, why would they run such a risk? What if DOH asked them for proof that the baby existed?

  363. avatar
    Rickey April 18, 2011 at 10:50 am #

    Scientist:
    The world doesn’t revolve around the birthers.They are a pimple. The only reason I even read your posts is that i have an interest in psychopathology.

    It’s also worth noting Kinsolving’s “follow-up question”:

    Q Another question. (Laughter.) The Washington Times and gawker.com report that of the 60 or more reporters who regularly cover these briefings, only 30 were invited to the White House to watch the July 4th fireworks, and they were ordered not to report this. And my question, why does the President believe it is fair to exclude so many, including even Helen Thomas, who was invited — (laughter) — by so many previous Presidents to this event?

    Is it any wonder that Gibbs doesn’t take Kinsolving seriously? Kinsolving gets to ask two questions at a White House briefing, and his questions are about the hospital where Obama was born and about reporters not being invited to the White House to watch fireworks.

  364. avatar
    Robert Clark April 18, 2011 at 11:06 am #

    Suranis: He did actually. He writes about being driven past it as a child and being told that that was the hospital where he was born.

    Do you have a page reference for that? I’ve never seen the book mentioned as a reference for where his birth hospital is given.

    Bob

  365. avatar
    Scientist April 18, 2011 at 11:57 am #

    Robert Clark: Do you have a page reference for that? I’ve never seen the book mentioned as a reference for where his birth hospital is given.

    I have one but I think you should answer my question first: “How do you know where you were born?”

  366. avatar
    Robert Clark April 18, 2011 at 12:15 pm #

    It’s the

    Scientist: I have one but I think you should answer my question first:“How do you know where you were born?”

    By having seen the birth certificate and for people who grew up close to the hospital where you were born as Obama apparently did and I did being reminded by your parents when you drive by it growing up.

    Bob

  367. avatar
    Robert Clark April 18, 2011 at 12:22 pm #

    The Magic M:
    > Cases like for instance when a President puts out a news release that he did not have sex with an intern…
    What a crappy example. If Clinton had written such a letter, the White House’s willingness or refusal to confirm Clinton wrote it would have no bearing on the contents of the letter.
    So even if the White House had said “yes, Clinton wrote it”, it wouldn’t have made a lie into truth…

    The point is for good reporters the White House not wanting to be questioned further on the contents should raise red flags. The fact is by questioning further you find that Clinton is using a very unusual definition of “sex” that excludes what most other people would consider sex. By just accepting the letter itself as valid and not questioning further you are losing out on an important truth that the White House wanted to keep concealed.

    Bob

  368. avatar
    Scientist April 18, 2011 at 12:27 pm #

    Robert Clark: By having seen the birth certificate and for people who grew up close to the hospital where you were born as Obama apparently did and I did being reminded by your parents when you drive by it growing up.

    But, Bob, what if your birth certificate were a fraud that your parents obtained by bribing a clerk in the hospital and what if your parents lied to you about where you were born? Now I’m not saying that’s what happened, but you have offered no proof to the contrary. Not a shred. If I called the hospital would they confirm that you were born there? What about the DOH of your supposed birthplace? Supposing I said your parents might have been fraudsters; would you take offense at that?.

    Now, regarding the President, in his book, he mentions his father’s visit to Hawaii when he was 10 years old (1971). He mentions driving around the island with his father and grandparents and going “past the hospital where I was born which was recently remodeled”. Guess which hospital in Hawaii added a surgical wing in 1966?
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5978320

  369. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 18, 2011 at 12:40 pm #

    Robert Clark: The point is for good reporters the White House not wanting to be questioned further on the contents should raise red flags. The fact is by questioning further you find that Clinton is using a very unusual definition of “sex” that excludes what most other people would consider sex. By just accepting the letter itself as valid and not questioning further you are losing out on an important truth that the White House wanted to keep concealed.

    Bob

    No again a total misreading of the situation as usual by you Bob. Clinton didn’t have an “unusual definition” of sex. He thought like a woman. To most women just giving a blowjob or receiving isn’t counted as actual sex. Besides that though the prosecution laid out a definition of sex that pretty much excluded oral. So Clinton was merely following the definition laid out by the prosecution in his statement. Good reporters don’t ask stupid questions repeatedly.

  370. avatar
    Daniel April 18, 2011 at 12:42 pm #

    Robert Clark: The point is for good reporters the White House not wanting to be questioned further on the contents should raise red flags.

    Apparently you don’t know much about reporting.

    Refusing to answer about an issue that is relevant and unresolved will raise red flags.

    Not bothering to address fringe nutbag questions about a non-issue that was resolved to any reasonable person’s satisfaction ages ago, does not raise any flags at all.

    Journalists have limited time and airspace. Why would they waste time and airspace on something that neither the POTUS, nor the general public cares about? Journalists sometimes write ABOUT nutbag fringe, but rarely if ever FOR the nutbag fringe.

  371. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 18, 2011 at 12:43 pm #

    Robert Clark: The point is for good reporters the White House not wanting to be questioned further on the contents should raise red flags. The fact is by questioning further you find that Clinton is using a very unusual definition of “sex” that excludes what most other people would consider sex. By just accepting the letter itself as valid and not questioning further you are losing out on an important truth that the White House wanted to keep concealed.

    And likewise a blind literalism should not be applied to statements made by certain persons in Africa related to “home.”

    “Sex” may have a number of meanings, but “place of my birth” does not.

  372. avatar
    Rickey April 18, 2011 at 1:18 pm #

    Scientist:

    Now, regarding the President, in his book, he mentions his father’s visit to Hawaii when he was 10 years old (1971).He mentions driving around the island with his father and grandparents and going “past the hospital where I was born which was recently remodeled”.Guess which hospital in Hawaii added a surgical wing in 1966?
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5978320

    And for Bob’s sake, It’s on page 66:

    A month. That’s how long we would have together, the five of us in my grandparents’ living room most evenings, during the day on drives around the island or on short walks past the private landmarks of a family; the lot where my father’s apartment had once stood; the remodeled hospital where I had been born; my grandparents’ first house in Hawaii…

    So Obama is on record as saying that he was born in a hospital in Hawaii, which has been confirmed by Dr. Fukino. And while Obama did not specifically identify the hospital
    as Kapiolani, there can be little doubt about that since Kapiolani was remodeled while Obama was living in Indonesia.

  373. avatar
    Rickey April 18, 2011 at 1:29 pm #

    Robert Clark:

    By having seen the birth certificate and for people who grew up close to the hospital where you were born as Obama apparently did and I did being reminded by your parents when you drive by it growing up.

    My New York birth certificate says nothing about where I was born other than the city and state. I wasn’t born in New York City, but my birth certificate is very similar to this:

    http://exposethemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/trumbc1.jpg

    Note that there is no space for listing the name of the hospital.

  374. avatar
    Robert Clark April 18, 2011 at 1:35 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): No again a total misreading of the situation as usual by you Bob.Clinton didn’t have an “unusual definition” of sex.He thought like a woman.To most women just giving a blowjob or receiving isn’t counted as actual sex.Besides that though the prosecution laid out a definition of sex that pretty much excluded oral.So Clinton was merely following the definition laid out by the prosecution in his statement.Good reporters don’t ask stupid questions repeatedly.

    We’re getting too far afield, but I think the overwhelming majority of people would call “oral sex” sex. That’s why the word is part of the phrase.

    Bob

  375. avatar
    Robert Clark April 18, 2011 at 1:44 pm #

    Rickey: My New York birth certificate says nothing about where I was born other than the city and state. I wasn’t born in New York City, but my birth certificate is very similar to this:

    http://exposethemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/trumbc1.jpg

    Note that there is no space for listing the name of the hospital.

    The big debate in the regards to the “birth certificate” is the difference between the original long form and the short form called a “Certification of Live Birth” in Obama’s case. The one you showed is the short form, usually a computer printed summary of the data on file. Those usually do not show the hospital, delivery doctor or parents addresses.
    The original long form usually does give that information.

    Bob

  376. avatar
    Robert Clark April 18, 2011 at 1:49 pm #

    Daniel: Apparently you don’t know much about reporting.

    Refusing to answer about an issue that is relevant and unresolved will raise red flags.

    Not bothering to address fringe nutbag questions about a non-issue that was resolved to any reasonable person’s satisfaction ages ago, does not raise any flags at all.

    Journalists have limited time and airspace. Why would they waste time and airspace on something that neither the POTUS, nor the general public cares about? Journalists sometimes write ABOUT nutbag fringe, but rarely if ever FOR the nutbag fringe.

    I gave two examples of reporters who wanted to question the White House about Abercrombies attempt to provide further evidence that Obama was born at Kapiolani. These were definitely not fringe reporters or “birthers”, yet their request was denied.

    Bob

  377. avatar
    Joey April 18, 2011 at 1:56 pm #

    Robert Clark: The big debate in the regards to the “birth certificate” is the difference between the original long form and the short form called a “Certification of Live Birth” in Obama’s case. The one you showed is the short form, usually a computer printed summary of the data on file. Those usually do not show the hospital, delivery doctor or parents addresses.The original long form usually does give that information.

    Bob

    “Short forms” are abstracts of the data on a long form. Article II, Section 1 of the US Constitution requires that a President (and a Vice President) be at least age 35, be born in the US or not born in the continental US but born of American parents under legally specified circumstances) and that a President/Vice President has lived in the US for 14 years.
    Any state’s certified short form provides the data required to establish constitutional eligibility. There is no additional information on a longer form that is constitutionally relevant.
    Article II, Section 1 does not require a president’s/vice president’s birth in a hospital, delivery by a physician or a registered mid-wife or that a birth be witnessed.

  378. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 18, 2011 at 2:00 pm #

    Robert Clark: We’re getting too far afield, but I think the overwhelming majority of people would call “oral sex” sex. That’s why the word is part of the phrase.

    Bob

    This is based on what? Your own thinking. Okay show of hands here how many of you here consider receiving oral sex as “getting laid”?

  379. avatar
    JoZeppy April 18, 2011 at 2:18 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): This is based on what? Your own thinking. Okay show of hands here how many of you here consider receiving oral sex as “getting laid”?

    If you want to get all legalistic, it can be very easily argued that oral sex does not count as sex. I forget which state it was, but there was a case where a court refused to count a lesbian affair as martial infidelity, because lesbians could not have intercourse, thus never “had sex” by the court’s defintion. A consumation of a marriage occurs with intercourse, not oral, so by that definition, oral is not sex either, and finally, go to your average high school, and take a survey…ask how many females provided oral sex, and if they are still virgins? Not a particularly far reach I would say.

  380. avatar
    Joey April 18, 2011 at 2:26 pm #

    For the record, President Obama is doing interviews today begining at 3:05 EDT with reporters from KCNC Denver, WRAL Raleigh, WFAA Dallas and WTHR Indianapolis.
    The interviewers can ask questions on any issue.

  381. avatar
    Rickey April 18, 2011 at 2:30 pm #

    Robert Clark: The big debate in the regards to the “birth certificate” is the difference between the original long form and the short form called a “Certification of Live Birth” in Obama’s case. The one you showed is the short form, usually a computer printed summary of the data on file. Those usually do not show the hospital, delivery doctor or parents addresses.The original long form usually does give that information.

    I’m well aware of that. My point is that New York, the second-largest state in the country, does not issue “long form” birth certificates. I have never had anything but short form birth certificates, yet they were sufficient for me to get a Social Security Number, a driver’s license, enlist in the U.S. Navy, get a Top Secret clearance, register to vote, and get a U.S. passport. Apparently there is a “long form” birth certificate for me on file with the State of New York, but I have never seen or needed a copy.

    By the way, one of my “short form” birth certificates is in fact an original. It was issued a week after I was born and is signed by the registrar. It says “This certificate is evidence of age, parentage and place of birth and should be carefully preserved.”

    So I have proof that I was born in New York, but I do not have a proof that I was born in a hospital.

  382. avatar
    Robert Clark April 18, 2011 at 2:45 pm #

    Joey:
    For the record, President Obama is doing interviews today begining at 3:05 EDT with reporters from KCNC Denver, WRAL Raleigh, WFAA Dallas and WTHR Indianapolis.
    The interviewers can ask questions on any issue.

    Thanks for that. Looking forward to hearing the topics they ask about.

    Bob

  383. avatar
    Scientist April 18, 2011 at 3:13 pm #

    Bob: I think I proved at 12:27 that even were you to show a birth certificate, I could claim that it was a forgery or that you parents pulled a scam to register you fraudulently (even if it were a hospitall certificate). If your parents are alive and they came out and confirmed the story, I could call them liars. If I called the hospital and the DOH of the place you were born, they would refuse to confirm your birth to me (properlly so). i could claim they were part of a giant conspiracy.

    In fact, your situation is not different from the President’s, except that you not have shown any certificate (he has) and your parents or older siibllings may be alive to speak on your behalf (I don’t know). It’s hardly the President’s fault if his parents are dead and he is the elder siibling.

    Despte the possibility that you and your family are fraudsters, I would be perfectly willing to believe what you said about your birth and what was on your certificate without any further question. Especially if no one in your immediiate family had any record of committing fraud or forgery. You seem unwilling to extend that sense of fair play to the President.

  384. avatar
    Scientist April 18, 2011 at 3:19 pm #

    Robert Clark: I gave two examples of reporters who wanted to question the White House about Abercrombies attempt to provide further evidence that Obama was born at Kapiolani. These were definitely not fringe reporters or “birthers”, yet their request was denied.

    You’re moving your goalposts. The reporters did not ask about where the President was born. They asked about what the Governor was doing. It was quite appropriate for the White House not to comment on what the Governor was doing since the White House may not have known. Those questions should have bbeen directed to the Governor.

  385. avatar
    misha April 18, 2011 at 3:37 pm #

    Robert Clark: I found two mainstream sources that say the White House declined to comment on Gov. Abercrombie’s attempt to prove Obama’s Hawaiian birth:

    Lester Kinsolving is a third rate reporter for a fifth rate Baltimore radio station, and writes for a crank website.

  386. avatar
    Robert Clark April 18, 2011 at 3:44 pm #

    Scientist:
    Bob: I think I proved at 12:27 that even were you to show a birth certificate, I could claim that it was a forgery or thatyou parents pulled a scam to register you fraudulently (even if it were a hospitall certificate).

    Good. Now show it to me.

    Bob

  387. avatar
    Scientist April 18, 2011 at 4:05 pm #

    Robert Clark: Good. Now show it to me.

    Show you what? Your birth certificate? I don’t have it and I’m beginning to suspect you don’t either.

  388. avatar
    Robert Clark April 18, 2011 at 4:07 pm #

    Rickey: I’m well aware of that. My point is that New York, the second-largest state in the country, does not issue “long form” birth certificates. I have never had anything but short form birth certificates, yet they were sufficient for me to get a Social Security Number, a driver’s license, enlist in the U.S. Navy, get a Top Secret clearance, register to vote, and get a U.S. passport. Apparently there is a “long form” birth certificate for me on file with the State of New York, but I have never seen or needed a copy.
    By the way, one of my “short form” birth certificates is in fact an original. It was issued a week after I was born and is signed by the registrar. It says “This certificate is evidence of age, parentage and place of birth and should be carefully preserved.”
    So I have proof that I was born in New York, but I do not have a proof that I was born in a hospital.

    Someone else on this forum, I can’t remember if it was you or not, mentioned that in New York they only send out the short-form BC. I did a web search on “New York”, “birth certificate”, and “long form” and found this:

    Getting a NY Birth Certificate with Apostille.
    May 17, 2007

    This posting is a public service for anyone born in New York City (Bronx, Kings, Manhattan, Queens, Staten Island) needing a birth certificate with Apostille.

    I need it to get married in France.

    The 3-step process – which I could not find fully explained anywhere on the Internet – goes as follows below: (There are also commercial services, but I found I did not need one.)

    Step 1

    Contact the Bureau of Vital Records in New York City at the department of health by telephone.

    Important: Do NOT order via the very speedy and efficient online VitalCheck service, they only issue a “short form” birth certificate. You need to call and specifically request a “long form” (or “vault copy”) of the birth certificate with letter of exemplification. The cost is about $35 dollars and it takes about five days from the time they receive your request.

    http://www.thomascrampton.com/uncategorized/getting-a-ny-birth-certificate-with-apostille/

    I was able to confirm this with the current version of the application form which shows the “vault” copy is the same as the “long form”:

    http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/vr/birth1.pdf

    Bob

  389. avatar
    Robert Clark April 18, 2011 at 4:08 pm #

    Scientist: Show you what?Your birth certificate?I don’t have it and I’m beginning to suspect you don’t either.

    Obama’s.

    Bob

  390. avatar
    Rickey April 18, 2011 at 4:17 pm #

    Robert Clark: I gave two examples of reporters who wanted to question the White House about Abercrombies attempt to provide further evidence that Obama was born at Kapiolani. These were definitely not fringe reporters or “birthers”, yet their request was denied.

    Your examples are bogus. The reporters were asking for comments about what Abercrombie was doing. They were not asking about where Obama was born and they were not asking the White House to confirm the authenticity of the Kapiolani letter. The White House clearly was neither encouraging nor discouraging Abercrombie from doing what he was doing. Hence, no comment.

    And let’s clear something up. Abercrombie was not specifically looking for evidence that Obama was born at Kapiolani. He was looking for some contemporaneous document(s) that prove Obama was born in Hawaii and which he could legally make public. He was then advised by his Attorney General that there is nothing which he could release.

    The birthers, feverishly at work in their word pretzel factory, dishonestly twisted this to mean that Abercrombie couldn’t find the “long-form” birth certificate.

  391. avatar
    Rickey April 18, 2011 at 4:20 pm #

    Robert Clark: Someone else on this forum, I can’t remember if it was you or not, mentioned that in New York they only send out the short-form BC. I did a web search on “New York”, “birth certificate”, and “long form” and found this:

    Getting a NY Birth Certificate with Apostille.

    That’s New York City, which has its own rules and procedures. The records of anyone born in the state but outside of New York City are maintained by the State Department of Health in Albany.

  392. avatar
    Scientist April 18, 2011 at 4:30 pm #

    Robert Clark: Obama’s

    http://msgboard.snopes.com/politics/graphics/birth.jpg

    Now yours. Failure to show it will lead me to conclude you don”t have one.

  393. avatar
    Robert Clark April 18, 2011 at 4:39 pm #

    Rickey: That’s New York City, which has its own rules and procedures. The records of anyone born in the state but outside of New York City are maintained by the State Department of Health in Albany.

    One of the posters on that “Getting a NY Birth Certificate with Apostille” page also said he was able to get a long form from New York State by specifically requesting it:

    Getting a NY Birth Certificate with Apostille.
    May 17, 2007
    “guest [Moderator] 11 months ago
    I just ordered a New York State birth certificate (not NYC), and I ordered it through VitalChek before seeing this website. I was able to call up VitalChek, and after about 30 mins on hold, I was able to update the order so that they would send me the long form. There is no option to do this online, but if you call them up, you may be able to have them make the change (depending on what state’s records you are ordering). It took about 1 minute after I got through to someone, and it didn’t cost me any extra money.”
    http://www.thomascrampton.com/uncategorized/getting-a-ny-birth-certificate-with-apostille/#comment-46791154

    Bob

  394. avatar
    James M April 18, 2011 at 4:47 pm #

    Robert Clark: he was able to get a long form from New York State by specifically requesting it

    If only President Obama were born in New York.

  395. avatar
    Scientist April 18, 2011 at 4:54 pm #

    Robert Clark: One of the posters on that “Getting a NY Birth Certificate with Apostille” page also said he was able to get a long form from New York State by specifically requesting it:

    isn’t it interesting that Bob repeats what an anonymous poster on some web site says as the Gospel, yet is willing to call every official in Hawaii a liar.

  396. avatar
    Robert Clark April 18, 2011 at 5:02 pm #

    Scientist: isn’t it interesting that Bob repeats what an anonymous poster on some web site says as the Gospel, yet is willing to call every official in Hawaii a liar.

    Dude, obviously I’m not saying the same thing has to apply Hawaii. It is easy enough for Rickey or anyone else from New York to verify whether of not it is true in New York state.

    Bob

  397. avatar
    Expelliarmus April 18, 2011 at 5:25 pm #

    nc1: There were two versions of the letter presented to the public

    But only one paper letter bearing Obama’s signature, from which an image was made that is now available for viewing on the internet.

    If someone chooses to read a document aloud such as a letter, book excerpt, poem, etc, and the reader deviates from the printed text — that does not change the provenance of what the author wrote — and certainly does not require the author to “confirm” the original writing.

  398. avatar
    Rickey April 18, 2011 at 6:38 pm #

    Robert Clark: One of the posters on that “Getting a NY Birth Certificate with Apostille” page also said he was able to get a long form from New York State by specifically requesting it:

    I haven’t spoken to anyone at VitalChek, but their website shows only one type of birth certificate available for New York State. There is no option for selectiing “Apostille” as the reason for requesting it (New York City does have an opltion for Apostille). I sent them an e-mail to clarify if they can get me a copy of my long-form certificate.

    You anonymous poster may or may not be telling the truth. I’ll report back when I get a response from VitalChek.

    Incidentally, VitalChek shows only the short form as being available from Hawaii.

  399. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny April 18, 2011 at 7:34 pm #

    Rickey: I was puzzled because the old wording of Section 320 made no provision for such a child to become a U.S. citizen prior to age 18 if the parents got divorced, or if the alien parent died, etc.

    In case some people are still wondering, section 321 part (3) grants automatic naturalization to the child of divorced parents when the parent who has got custody naturalizes. There has to be a work-around to avoid the silly situation where the child of divorced parents would be a US citizen if the parent with custody was naturalized, but NOT if the parent with custody was a natural born citizen. That cannot be right.

    If I say that the law as presented in this PDF sounds complicated and convoluted, that is an understatement. No wonder it was later re-arranged with 322 being integrated into 320.

  400. avatar
    Robert Clark April 18, 2011 at 8:01 pm #

    Suranis: I notice you deliberatly decided NOT to include Gibbs answer to the question. Lets take the FULL account shall we?“Q Thank you very much. Just two questions.MR. GIBBS: It was probably only one when I passed over you the first time. (Laughter.)Q Six or seven.MR. GIBBS: All right, all right, easy on the first two rows. Les, you can’t sit in the second row and complain about all the questions in the second row. You got to go likeway back and — I’m kidding, go ahead.Q I appreciate it. While you and the President were overseas on July the 7th, there was on the Internet a copy of a letter on White House letterhead dated January the 24th, 2009, with the signature “Barack Obama,” which stated “The place of my birth was Honolulu’s Kapi’olani Medical Center.” And my question is, can you verify this letter? Or if not, would you tell us which Hawaiian hospital he was born in, since Kapi’olani, which used to publicize this, now refuses to confirm?MR. GIBBS: Goodness gracious. I’m going to be, like, in year four describing where it is the President was born. I don’t have the letter at my fingertips, obviously, and I don’t know the name of the exact hospital.Q Can you check on this?MR. GIBBS: I will seek to interview whoever brought the President into this world. But can we just — I want to do this once and for all, Lester. Let’s just do this once and for all. You can go on this — I hope you’ll take the time not just to Google “President, January 24, Hawaii hospital, birth” and come up with this letter, but go on the Internet and get the birth certificate, Lester, and put –Q It’s not a birth certificate.MR. GIBBS: I know. (Laughter.) Just a document from the state of Hawaii denoting the fact that the President was indeed born in the state of Hawaii.Q But it doesn’t say where he was born or who the doctor was.MR. GIBBS: You know, Lester, I — I want to stay on this for a second, Lester, I want to stay on this for a second, because you’re a smart man, right?Q Hypothetical. (Laughter.)MR. GIBBS: All right, all right, settle down in here. Only I get to make jokes like that.No, Lester, let’s finish this one. Do all of your listeners and the listeners throughout this country the service to which any journalist owes those listeners, and that is the pursuit of the noble truth. And the noble truth is that the President was born in Hawaii, a state of the United States of America. And all of this incredible back-and-forth — I get e-mails today from people who inexplicably can figure out very easily the White House e-mail address, and want proof of where the President was born.Lester, the next time you ask me a question I’m going to ask you what reporting you’ve done to demonstrate to your listeners the truth, the certificate, the state, so that they can look to you for that momentous search for the truth, and you can wipe away all the dark clouds and provide them with the knowing clarity that comes with that certainty”So, Gibbs answered the guy, straight out that Obama was born in Hawai’i. Which is what the letter said. And the guy was obviously satisfied because he immediately moved onto an unrelated question about a fireworks display. Gee, I wonder why you didn’t want to give the full transcript if the exchange. Not.WND is the same bunch that breathlessly Ran as story with the headline “Hawaii governor can’t find Obama birth certificate!” and then posted a link to a story that said the Hawaii Governor actually HAD had found Obamas birth records, confirmed they exist, but he could not legally release them.http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=252833WND are liars. If they say something, the opposite is likely true. And they trust their brand of readership never to verify their stories, as as long as they are saying bad things about the black guy in the white house their readers are happy.What was that about Obots not verifying facts?Oh, you’ve probably seen it before and railed at the source because it tells the verifiable truth., and unlike WND its links dont say the opposite of that the story says. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/13/obamas-birth-certificate/“Shortly after we posted this document on June 12, 2008, some PolitiFact readers questioned its authenticity.“You have shown a Certificate of Live Birth — not a birth certificate,” one e-mailed. “There is a difference. Look at state laws regarding the completion of both forms.”Another wrote: “I have serious doubts about the purported birth certificate’ you were sent.”To verify we did indeed have the correct document, we contacted the Hawaii Department of Health, which maintains such records.“It’s a valid Hawaii state birth certificate,” spokesman Janice Okubo said June 13, 2008, after we e-mailed her our copy.Okubo said a copy of the birth certificate was requested in June 2008, but she wouldn’t specify by whom. But as we know from our attempts to get the record in April 2008, Hawaii law states that only family members can access such records.”The June 2008 date is a misprint, obviously, since the date on the BC is June 2007. But it confirms it was ordered before it appeared. Which means the date was confirmed, its just that you don’t want it to have been confirmed.You might sneer at me, but you are a slave to your own lies. You might have started out as a funny way to try and get at Obama, but now you can’t get out. When you cant tell the difference between truth, lies eat you up from the inside out. Your existence must be completely miserable. I’ll say a prayer for you, but the only person that can get you out of this spinning nightmare is you.

    Hey, Suranis you have poetic streak. Hard to tell with short posts. But anyway for that passage:

    WND are liars. If they say something, the opposite is likely true. And they trust their brand of readership never to verify their stories, as as long as they are saying bad things about the black guy in the white house their readers are happy. What was that about Obots not verifying facts?

    I’ll make the argument that if he were a white guy hiding his birth certificate , you’d be all over the guy.

    Bob

  401. avatar
    misha April 18, 2011 at 8:07 pm #

    Robert Clark: I’ll make the argument that if he were a white guy hiding his birth certificate , you’d be all over the guy.

    No white man ever had to show his birth certificate.

  402. avatar
    Scientist April 18, 2011 at 8:18 pm #

    Robert Clark: I’ll make the argument that if he were a white guy hiding his birth certificate , you’d be all over the guy

    You’re hiding yours and I have no idea what color you are (I suspect kind of a puke green).

    On the other hand Obama has shown his. Was that his white half or black hallf that showed his b.c.?

  403. avatar
    Suranis April 18, 2011 at 8:18 pm #

    Robert Clark: Hey, Suranis you have poetic streak. Hard to tell with short posts. But anyway for that passage:

    I’ll make the argument that if he were a white guy hiding his birth certificate , you’d be all over the guy.

    What, like John McCain?

    McCain was eligible. End of story.

  404. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny April 18, 2011 at 8:18 pm #

    By the way, an apostille needed to use an official document of country A in country B, has nothing to do with long forms, or original vault forms. An apostille is an internationally accepted certificate of authentication. It authenticates the signature (or seal) of the official who “executed” the document and confirms that (s)he was authorized to do so. Apostilles are typically added by a department of a country’s Ministry of the Interior, who have all the signatures of Mayors, Secretaries of State, Head Clerks of Registration, notaries, … and perhaps even priests on file. Through diplomatic services, the department of the Interior Ministry of country B will have the signature of the clerks in country B who are allowed to add apostilles, on file.

    Of course, it is just possible that some birth certificates may be so short they do not have a signature of an official that can be authenticated. An added problem with New York City may be that foreigners may believe that New York City itself is not authorized to execute birth certificates.

    But the two terms (apostille and long form) are completely separate entities. And funnily, the New York City website http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/vr/vr-forms.shtml does not mention long forms, but the application form you can download there mentions both long forms and original vault copies. Hm, seems it is not as simple as short versus long And it could be part of a pattern here. A long form may look more complete and obviously older and more original. You never know, let us get the long form.

    All this was caused because someone wanted to marry in France. But why would (s)he need a long form? I would guess that the only thing a French offical would be interested in would be whether any of the parents had French citizenship. Would that be on a New York City long form?

  405. avatar
    Robert Clark April 18, 2011 at 8:35 pm #

    Robert Clark: MR. GIBBS: I will seek to interview whoever brought the President into this world. But can we just — I want to do this once and for all, Lester. Let’s just do this once and for all. You can go on this — I hope you’ll take the time not just to Google “President, January 24, Hawaii hospital, birth” and come up with this letter, but go on the Internet and get the birth certificate, Lester, and put –

    That’s an interesting passage. That means that Gibbs knew of the letter beforehand and most likely read it. The question: would he have asked Obama about it? Consider, since he quoted that web search he must have tried it already.I’ll assume he was able to pull up the letter. However, a key fact is that he or someone else had to know of the letter beforehand,
    Since he knew of it wouldn’t you think he would have gotten the answer from Obama already? I mean if it was such a simple answer. Perhaps a simple answer like yes of no didn’t fit the scenario.
    Now why did Gibbs resign? And why did that director of the Hawaiian health department selected by the new governor resign?

    Bob

  406. avatar
    Robert Clark April 18, 2011 at 8:40 pm #

    Scientist: You’re hiding yours and I have no idea what color you are (I suspect kind of a puke green).On the other hand Obama has shown his. Was that his white half or black hallf that showed his b.c.?

    Let’s approach this logically, Scientist. Will you agree that if it were a white guy in the same way refusing to release his original birth certificate then you would say he should show it?

    Bob

  407. avatar
    Joey April 18, 2011 at 8:48 pm #

    Robert Clark: That’s an interesting passage. That means that Gibbs knew of the letter beforehand and most likely read it. The question: would he have asked Obama about it?Consider, since he quoted that web search he must have tried it already.I’ll assume he was able to pull up the letter. However, akey fact is that heor someone else had to know of the letter beforehand,Since he knew of it wouldn’t you think he would have gotten the answer from Obama already? I mean if it was such a simple answer. Perhaps a simple answer like yes of no didn’t fit the scenario.Now why did Gibbs resign? And why did that director of the Hawaiian health department selected by the new governor resign?

    Bob

    The House of Representatives can convene a special investigative committee to look into President Obama’s eligibility and they can subpoena Robert Gibbs, Dr. Fukino, Dr. Fukino’s replacement who resigned and officials from Kapiolani Medical Center for Women and Children.
    Except Congress isn’t interested.
    A state Attorney General in any state where the name “Barack Hussein Obama” might have appeared on the state election ballot and been there fraudulently can convene a Grand Jury investigation to look into a possible election fraud charge. Then records and individuals can also be subpoenaed.
    Except no state Attorney General is interested.

  408. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 18, 2011 at 8:49 pm #

    Scientist: isn’t it interesting that Bob repeats what an anonymous poster on some web site says as the Gospel, yet is willing to call every official in Hawaii a liar.

    Isn’t it also funny that the guy on the website never posted any proof and notice his little line “oops I lost the photo”

  409. avatar
    Joey April 18, 2011 at 8:49 pm #

    Robert Clark: Let’s approach this logically, Scientist. Will you agree that if it were a white guy in the same way refusing to release his original birth certificate then you would say he should show it?

    Bob

    President Obama’s birth certificate has been available to see on the internet for the last three years.

  410. avatar
    Scientist April 18, 2011 at 8:51 pm #

    Robert Clark: Let’s approach this logically, Scientist. Will you agree that if it were a white guy in the same way refusing to release his original birth certificate then you would say he should show it?

    Let’s see 42 white guys have been President before Obama. Some similar number have been Veeps. Most were after the grandfather clause expired. So we’re talking something like 70 or so white guys. None showed any b.c. at all. No one complained.

    So, no, I don’t think anyone should show their birth certificate. I want to hear what they plan to do as President not which doctor slapped them on the butt. That’s the ONLY thing that matters, not what hospiital, doctor, who your dadddy was. All that is bull. And you know it is. So I think you’re a phony. It’s a sense I get about you and I am very seldom wrong about such things.

  411. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 18, 2011 at 8:55 pm #

    Robert Clark: I’ll make the argument that if he were a white guy hiding his birth certificate , you’d be all over the guy.

    Bob

    And that’s the funny thing is how stupid you just made yourself sound. McCain is hiding his birth certificate why aren’t you all over him? Oh yeah because he’s white and privileged. Actually no one here cares if McCain hid his birth certificate or not. You just gave away your whole entire reason for whining about the birth certificate all comes down to Obama being black. Thanks for revealing your true motives.

  412. avatar
    Joey April 18, 2011 at 8:55 pm #

    Barack Obama cannot submit a federal income tax return without a valid, SINGLE Social Security Number and his 2010 Federal return is now been made public:
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=13401680

  413. avatar
    Robert Clark April 18, 2011 at 9:29 pm #

    Joey: Barack Obama cannot submit a federal income tax return without a valid, SINGLE Social Security Number and his 2010 Federal return is now been made public:http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=13401680

    Was his SS# redacted?

    Bob

  414. avatar
    Robert Clark April 18, 2011 at 9:33 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): And that’s the funny thing is how stupid you just made yourself sound. McCain is hiding his birth certificate why aren’t you all over him? Oh yeah because he’s white and privileged. Actually no one here cares if McCain hid his birth certificate or not. You just gave away your whole entire reason for whining about the birth certificate all comes down to Obama being black. Thanks for revealing your true motives.

    If McCain were President and he was refusing to release his long form birth certificate then democrats would be all over him, as they rightly ought to be.

    Bob

  415. avatar
    Expelliarmus April 18, 2011 at 9:37 pm #

    Robert Clark: That’s an interesting passage. That means that Gibbs knew of the letter beforehand and most likely read it. The question: would he have asked Obama about it?

    No, he’s not an idiot. He can read what is written plainly in front of him. He was not hired for the purposes of asking the president dumb questions. He was hired with the assumption that he could read and figure things out by himself, so that he could answer other people’s questions.

    Consider, since he quoted that web search he must have tried it already.I’ll assume he was able to pull up the letter. However, a key fact is that he or someone else had to know of the letter beforehand,

    Yest, it is obvious from the press conference that he remembered the date of the letter and had probably seen the letter, but couldn’t remember offhand the name of the hospital. So he told the idiot reporter the simply Google search that he (Gibbs) would use if he wanted to find the letter. Because Gibbs knows how to use Google.

    Since he knew of it wouldn’t you think he would have gotten the answer from Obama already? I mean if it was such a simple answer. Perhaps a simple answer like yes of no didn’t fit the scenario.

    No, again that is a really stupid question to ask. The President writes a letter that says that Kapioloni hospital is the “place of my birth.” Gibbs reads the letter. What’s he supposed to say — “Mr. President, I know you are busy trying with the budget and Libya and all, but can you please answer my question. When you say that this hospital is ‘the place’ where you were born, do that mean that you were born there? Oh, and by the way, someone called and wanted to mail us something? What’s the street address of the White House again? We’re on Pennsylvania Avenue, right?”

    Now why did Gibbs resign

    He got really, really tired of answering endless questions from idiots.

  416. avatar
    Scientist April 18, 2011 at 9:41 pm #

    Robert Clark: Was his SS# redacted?

    He used his actual SSN. Just like you do, assuming you actually file taxes (I would say the odds are <50/50 that you do). How do we know this? That is the SSN on the record for his house in Chicago (which is likely how the # got into the database). He deducts mortgage interest on that house. Mortgage interest is reported on a 1098. Guess what the IRS does if the # on the 1098 and the 1040 don't match?

  417. avatar
    Scientist April 18, 2011 at 9:44 pm #

    Robert Clark: If McCain were President and he was refusing to release his long form birth certificate then democrats would be all over him, as they rightly ought to be

    I doubt it since, the Senate unanimously said he was qualified. And why would it be right to spend 4 years piddling over a birth certificate?

    Do you think there are actual issues that the country should be concerned about? What is this fixation you have about birth? Some Oedipal thing? As I said above, there is something phony about you.

  418. avatar
    Robert Clark April 18, 2011 at 9:48 pm #

    Scientist: http://msgboard.snopes.com/politics/graphics/birth.jpgNow yours. Failure to show it will lead me to conclude you don”t have one.

    Everybody, and his long lost Chinese cousin could get one of those.

    Bob

  419. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 18, 2011 at 9:50 pm #

    Robert Clark: If McCain were President and he was refusing to release his long form birth certificate then democrats would be all over him, as they rightly ought to be.

    Bob

    Umm Obama released his before the election McCain did not. 42 other white guys before Obama didn’t release their long form after they became president. Where was your whining then? No the democrats wouldn’t be all over him.

  420. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 18, 2011 at 9:52 pm #

    Robert Clark: Everybody, and his long lost Chinese cousin could get one of those.

    Bob

    Prove it

  421. avatar
    Joey April 18, 2011 at 9:55 pm #

    Governor Brewer of Arizona has vetoed the “birther” bill.
    http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/041811_brewer_vetoes

  422. avatar
    Scientist April 18, 2011 at 9:56 pm #

    Robert Clark: Everybody, and his long lost Chinese cousin could get one of those

    Where’s yours?

    You are phony i can smell it through the computer, The more you type, the more clear it is.

  423. avatar
    James M April 18, 2011 at 10:02 pm #

    Joey:
    Governor Brewer of Arizona has vetoed the “birther” bill.
    http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/041811_brewer_vetoes

    Says Brewer:

    “In addition, I never imagined being presented with a bill that could require candidates for president of the greatest and most powerful nation on Earth to submit their ‘early baptismal circumcision certificates’ among other records to the Arizona secretary of state,” she said. “This is a bridge too far.”

    She also vetoed a bill that was aimed at protesting Obamacare and another one that would have allowed guns on college campuses.

  424. avatar
    misha April 18, 2011 at 10:04 pm #

    Robert Clark: Everybody, and his long lost Chinese cousin could get one of those.

    My wife is from China, so STFU. The best thing you are, is an anus.

  425. avatar
    Suranis April 18, 2011 at 10:09 pm #

    Robert Clark: Everybody, and his long lost Chinese cousin could get one of those.

    You know it is an interesting question. Its been 3 years since the birthers started claiming that anyone could get a Hawaiin COLB and it was easy to do, Yet not ONE has actually proven it. it would be the coup of the century. Actually waving the BC that shows them born in honolulu when they were born in Chicago or Paris or something. It would blow Obama’s whole nativity story. And yet not one person has actually shown one.

    I mean they have also been trying to prove that anyone can get still long forms and a couple of those have popped up, and I have no doubt that one is genuine.(Danae’s non certified copy) If its apparently so easy to get and everyone keeps saying it is, wheres the birth certificate?

  426. avatar
    G April 18, 2011 at 11:21 pm #

    Robert Clark: If McCain were President and he was refusing to release his long form birth certificate then democrats would be all over him, as they rightly ought to be.
    Bob

    No they wouldn’t! What a fallacious, straw man argument!

    They headed that one off at the bat by passing the Senate resoution early in the campaign. Note his primary Democratic oppostion (both HRC & Obama) were key sponsors to that.

    Stop being so full of BS arguments, you PUMA. You’re petty spitefulness is truly sad.

  427. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 18, 2011 at 11:26 pm #

    Robert Clark: Was his SS# redacted?

    Was that a rhetorical question, or are you too lazy to click a link and look for yourself?

  428. avatar
    G April 18, 2011 at 11:27 pm #

    Robert Clark: Was his SS# redacted?Bob

    To the IRS – no.

    On what is shown to the public… I would certainly hope so!

    You are a totally moron if you think it is a good idea to broadcast anyone’s SSN currently in use. Obviously, you haven’t been paying attention to the massive issues of identity theft that can occur when people access your SSN.

  429. avatar
    Obsolete April 18, 2011 at 11:31 pm #

    Robert Clark- put up or shut up.
    Show us an example of the State of Hawaii issuing a COLB to someone that states they were born in Hawaii, but actually weren’t, or leave here branded as the liar I believe you are.

  430. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 18, 2011 at 11:33 pm #

    Robert Clark: If McCain were President and he was refusing to release his long form birth certificate then democrats would be all over him, as they rightly ought to be.

    It’s kind of ridiculous to ask for a birth certificate AFTER the election. BEFORE the election, McCain refused to release his birth certificate (for rather obvious reasons) and I don’t recall any big deal being made over it.

  431. avatar
    The Magic M April 19, 2011 at 5:15 am #

    > Now why did Gibbs resign? And why did that director of the Hawaiian health department selected by the new governor resign?

    Why don’t you ask them? “Ooh, it’s all a big mystery” is not a rational argument. Assuming it has anything to do with Obama is about as rational as assuming they were both caught cheating on their wives with Orly.

    Here’s a question of mystery for you, birther: why was the Ankeny case not appealed to SCOTUS? Maybe because that would have put an end to the “you need two citizen parents to be NBC” lie the birthers spout?
    Why is the most prominent birther lawyer utterly unable to even properly serve the defendant, something every law student in his first semester can understand? Does she want to lose?
    Riddle me those mysteries, birther!

  432. avatar
    Lupin April 19, 2011 at 6:31 am #

    Robert Clark: Let’s approach this logically, Scientist. Will you agree that if it were a white guy in the same way refusing to release his original birth certificate then you would say he should show it?

    Shorter version: If only the President wasn’t a n***.

  433. avatar
    Robert Clark April 19, 2011 at 6:47 am #

    James M: Says Brewer:“In addition, I never imagined being presented with a bill that could require candidates for president of the greatest and most powerful nation on Earth to submit their early baptismal circumcision certificates’ among other records to the Arizona secretary of state,” she said. “This is a bridge too far.” She also vetoed a bill that was aimed at protesting Obamacare and another one that would have allowed guns on college campuses.

    Even some Republicans like Obama. Like Fukino.

    Bob

  434. avatar
    Robert Clark April 19, 2011 at 6:49 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Was that a rhetorical question, or are you too lazy to click a link and look for yourself?

    I presume that means yes? Can wesee the first few digits?

    Bob

  435. avatar
    Robert Clark April 19, 2011 at 6:54 am #

    G: No they wouldn’t! What a fallacious, straw man argument!They headed that one off at the bat by passing the Senate resoution early in the campaign. Note his primary Democratic oppostion (both HRC & Obama) were key sponsors to that.Stop being so full of BS arguments, you PUMA. You’re petty spitefulness is truly sad.

    If you had a republican President and, say, a republican led congress, you mean democrats wouldn’t be doing whatever they can to weaken him politically?
    What, are they too gentlemanly to do that?

    Bob

  436. avatar
    Robert Clark April 19, 2011 at 7:01 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: It’s kind of ridiculous to ask for a birth certificate AFTER the election. BEFORE the election, McCain refused to release his birth certificate (for rather obvious reasons) and I don’t recall any big deal being made over it.

    Probably because most people including me believed it had been released because of what was shown on the internet. However, most likely those were false. It very well may have been McCain’s camp let those remain out there uncontested so that there would be no calls to release the real one.
    However, if he had become President with the realization that he still had not shown a valid one I think there would have been a great call to release it.

    Bob

  437. avatar
    The Magic M April 19, 2011 at 7:19 am #

    > Probably because most people including me believed it had been released because of what was shown on the internet.

    Most people including you? You gotta be kidding! You birthers found all kinds of invented stuff to complain about when Obama released his COLB on the web. You even claim it’s obvious it’s “only an internet image”. Yet you had no problem with the “internet image” shown by McCain? Well, that again begs the question what distinguishes Obama from McCain…

    > if he had become President with the realization that he still had not shown a valid one

    What realization? You just said what McCain released was fine with you and everyone else.

    > If you had a republican President and, say, a republican led congress, you mean democrats wouldn’t be doing whatever they can to weaken him politically?

    If Democrats had wanted to weaken McCain politically, why didn’t they say “he’s not an NBC”?
    You’re still running the debunked birfer meme of “both McCain and Obama didn’t address the issue because they both were affected by it”. That however assumes erroneously Obama is not an NBC because of his British citizen father – something no constitutional expert agrees with.

    > Even some Republicans like Obama. Like Fukino.

    You do realize you’re sounding like a typical conspiracy wingnut? “Everyone from his opponent party who disagrees with us is secretly in league with him”, that’s what you’re
    saying.
    You fools believe any crap that’s anti-Obama (like Tim Adams claiming what some unnamed person allegedly told him) and don’t believe anything that would undermine your story (like several Hawaiian officials confirming his Hawaiian birth). That’s fine with me, just don’t call that attitude “factual”.

  438. avatar
    Suranis April 19, 2011 at 7:42 am #

    Robert Clark: If you had a republican President and, say, a republican led congress, you mean democrats wouldn’t be doing whatever they can to weaken him politically?What, are they too gentlemanly to do that?

    I didn’t see John Kerry waving flip flops around and calling Bush a flip flopper when there was plenty of evidence he was. Or pointing out Bushes heroic service defending alcohol in Texas during Vietnam while Kerry was busy being shot. Or, you know, lying.

    Robert Clark: Probably because most people including me believed it had been released because of what was shown on the internet. However, most likely those were false. It very well may have been McCain’s camp let those remain out there uncontested so that there would be no calls to release the real one.However, if he had become President with the realization that he still had not shown a valid one I think there would have been a great call to release it.

    Just quoting this to preserve for all eternity one of the most pathetic evasions I’ve ever seen on the internet.

  439. avatar
    Northland10 April 19, 2011 at 7:54 am #

    Robert Clark: Now why did Gibbs resign?

    The birthers, so in need of a conspiracy to cover their conspiracies, find great mystery in people resigning from a White House position. If this is so, then why did Bush II burn through 4 press secretaries and Clinton 4 (or 5, depending on the definition).

    The simple fact is that working in the White House is extremely long hours and, I would imagine, very stressful. History has shown that White House staff rotate quite often. They tend to leave so they can have a more “normal” life and spend more time with their families.

  440. avatar
    Reality Check April 19, 2011 at 7:59 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: It’s kind of ridiculous to ask for a birth certificate AFTER the election. BEFORE the election, McCain refused to release his birth certificate (for rather obvious reasons) and I don’t recall any big deal being made over it.

    I have a post up about the ongoing and shocking McCain BC coverup. http://rcradioshow.blogspot.com/2011/04/shocking-news-mccain-spent-26-million.html

  441. avatar
    Robert Clark April 19, 2011 at 8:14 am #

    Scientist: Where’s yours? You are phony i can smell it through the computer, The more you type, the more clear it is.

    Phony, in what way? I do have a short-form birth certificate which my state sends out. I was curious about whether you could get a copy of the long form from this state so I called the state department of health.
    When I asked the clerk on the phone if I could get the long form her immediate response was no. But then she asked what do I need it for? I told her I want to do genealogical research on my family background.(I wasn’t particularly interested in this but my mother has been asking me to do this for years.) The clerk then told me she would mail out the form and on it I had to be sure to write on it “include all available records”, or something to that effect.
    I have the form. It does look like the standard form that would also be used to order the short form. I’ll send it in with that notation for the more extensive record and see what I get back.

    Bob

  442. avatar
    Robert Clark April 19, 2011 at 8:21 am #

    The Magic M: > Probably because most people including me believed it had been released because of what was shown on the internet.Most people including you? You gotta be kidding! You birthers found all kinds of invented stuff to complain about when Obama released his COLB on the web…>

    I had no interest in McCain, one way or the other. I had no plans for voting for a republican at the time so just took at face value the statements I read and the images I saw he had posted his on the internet. BUT if Hillary had won the democratic nomination you can be damn sure I would be looking into more closely if he really was eligible.

    Bob

  443. avatar
    Robert Clark April 19, 2011 at 8:57 am #

    Rickey: I haven’t spoken to anyone at VitalChek, but their website shows only one type of birth certificate available for New York State. There is no option for selectiing “Apostille” as the reason for requesting it (New York City does have an opltion for Apostille). I sent them an e-mail to clarify if they can get me a copy of my long-form certificate.You anonymous poster may or may not be telling the truth. I’ll report back when I get a response from VitalChek.Incidentally, VitalChek shows only the short form as being available from Hawaii.

    I did a web search for Hawaii birth certificates and apostille and found this:

    Who is Eligible to Apply for an Apostille?
    “A certified copy of a birth, death, marriage, or divorce certificate issued by the State of Hawaii may need to be officially authenticated in order that it be recognized and accepted by government officials of foreign countries.
    “In the United States of America, each state has the authority to authenticate documents created within the state’s jurisdiction for international certification or legalization.
    “For those foreign countries who are nations that have joined the 1961 Hague Convention, the authentication process requires just one official form called an Apostille to accompany the birth, death, marriage, or divorce certificate. In the State of Hawaii, Apostilles are prepared by the Office of the Lieutenant Governor.
    “For nations who have not joined the Convention, the authentication process requires two separate forms to accompany the certificate. In Hawaii, one of these forms is called a Certification and is prepared by the Lieutenant Governor’s Office. The third form is called an Authentication and is prepared by the State Circuit Court.
    “Any person applying for a certified copy of a birth, death, marriage, or divorce certificate is eligible to apply for its authentication, if necessary, for international purposes.”
    http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/vital-records/apostille.html

    For New York City the original long form must be used to apply the apostille. It would be interesting to find out if that also holds in Hawaii.

    Bob

  444. avatar
    Scientist April 19, 2011 at 9:32 am #

    Robert Clark: I had no interest in McCain, one way or the other. I had no plans for voting for a republican at the time so just took at face value the statements I read and the images I saw he had posted his on the internet. BUT if Hillary had won the democratic nomination you can be damn sure I would be looking into more closely if he really was eligible

    Yet you said in another post that you voted for McCain as “a vote against Obama”.

    So of the 2 candidates, one actually released a valid birth certificate (whether you like its length or not, that’s what it is) showing him born in the US. The other released nada (you couldn’t even be bothered to find that out until people here told you) and was not born in the US.

    This is why I call you a phony. The birth certificate meant nothing to you in 2008 and means nothing to you now. It’s simply a drum to bang against someone you don’t like. And the question is why? No one is tellling you you are forbidden from disliking Obama. We are all human and we all dislike certain people (I dislike you for example). You are entitled to dislike Obama for any reason you want, whether because of his ethnicity, his being a law professor, his being a White Sox fan, any or all of the above or anything else. Your post is an admission that it isn’t about the birth certificate, it’s about your personal feelings. You are entitled to your feelings, but not to the phoniness.

    And that’s why I say you are a certified phony. Phony. Phony.

  445. avatar
    Scientist April 19, 2011 at 9:37 am #

    Robert Clark: Phony, in what way? I do have a short-form birth certificate which my state sends out. I was curious about whether you could get a copy of the long form from this state so I called the state department of health.
    When I asked the clerk on the phone if I could get the long form her immediate response was no. But then she asked what do I need it for? I told her I want to do genealogical research on my family background.(I wasn’t particularly interested in this but my mother has been asking me to do this for years.) The clerk then told me she would mail out the form and on it I had to be sure to write on it “include all available records”, or something to that effect.
    I have the form. It does look like the standard form that would also be used to order the short form. I’ll send it in with that notation for the more extensive record and see what I get back.

    So after all this fuss, and despite the fact that you would “proudly show your long form if you ran foor President”, you don’t actually know for a fact that you can get it or what it will look like. In fact, you haven’t even actually sent in the order.

    Phony. Phony. Phony.

  446. avatar
    The Magic M April 19, 2011 at 9:47 am #

    > I had no interest in McCain, one way or the other.

    By “one way or the other” you mean “no matter if he had won or not”?

    > BUT if Hillary had won the democratic nomination you can be damn sure I would be looking into more closely if he really was eligible

    So you don’t really care about the eligibility of the president, you only care of the eligibility of the candidate who runs against your favourite candidate? Is that what you’re saying?

    And now suddenly you care for Obama’s eligibility even though Hillary is out of the race and you couldn’t care less, according to your own twisted reasoning?

    But you don’t care at all if any former president was eligible and if all GWB and Clinton did might be null and void, including laws, taxes, …?

    The question is: why? What singles out Obama from a white Republican and a white Democrat? Could it be because he is b….

  447. avatar
    The Magic M April 19, 2011 at 9:52 am #

    I forgot:

    > But you don’t care at all if any former president was eligible and if all GWB and Clinton did might be null and void, including laws, taxes, …?

    Just imagine – 16 years of void laws, void judge nominations, void disarmament treaties with Russia/China, void economy treaties with the entire world, void resolutions in the UN security council (note to the sane: I’m arguing birther-style on purpose here)…

    Yet all you care about is Obama, though you claim eligibility was your concern regardless of what president it affects. Hypocrit, liar, fool!

  448. avatar
    G April 19, 2011 at 10:21 am #

    Robert Clark: Even some Republicans like Obama. Like Fukino.Bob

    Which is why she actively campaigned for McCain over him???

    Stop being so delusional. You only make yourself come across foolish.

  449. avatar
    G April 19, 2011 at 10:24 am #

    Robert Clark: If you had a republican President and, say, a republican led congress, you mean democrats wouldn’t be doing whatever they can to weaken him politically?What, are they too gentlemanly to do that?Bob

    Ahh…so now you are onto false equivocation straw man arguments?

    They wouldn’t be pulling birther nonsense. Some things are beyond the pale of sane politics.

  450. avatar
    G April 19, 2011 at 10:27 am #

    Robert Clark: Probably because most people including me believed it had been released because of what was shown on the internet. However, most likely those were false. It very well may have been McCain’s camp let those remain out there uncontested so that there would be no calls to release the real one.However, if he had become President with the realization that he still had not shown a valid one I think there would have been a great call to release it.Bob

    Except the COLB he released in 2008 *is* the HI official BC. It was then and still is now.

    The only difference between then and now is somehow, you’ve allowed your petty spite and anger to overwhelm your senses and you trick your mind into believing any trash rumor that will slander. You are suffering from a strong case of ODS.

    In otherwords, you’ve allowed yourself to become a gullible brainwashed fool.

  451. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 19, 2011 at 11:20 am #

    Robert Clark: If you had a republican President and, say, a republican led congress, you mean democrats wouldn’t be doing whatever they can to weaken him politically?

    I can only answer for myself, and the answer is “no.”

    Ponder the word “integrity.”

  452. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 19, 2011 at 11:35 am #

    Robert Clark: For New York City the original long form must be used to apply the apostille. It would be interesting to find out if that also holds in Hawaii.

    Well, why don’t you find out and report back?

  453. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 19, 2011 at 11:37 am #

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