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Crazy people

Dr. Conspiracy

We throw around terms like “crazy birthers” freely when describing the antics of anti-Obama denialists. Check out our “Batshirt Crazy” awards in times past. I hope that people understand that when I use these terms, I do so not in a clinical way. I know of a least one notable birther who really is undergoing treatment for mental disease, but I would never say that name, nor allude to who it is. On a number of occasions I have quietly deleted comments left by visitors saying things like: “you forgot your meds.” Mental illness is not funny and it is cruel to ridicule someone with a disability.

This brings us the real subject of this story, Dr. Jerome Corsi. Corsi has a PhD from Harvard in Political Science which in my book probably means he’s a pretty smart guy (even smarter than Donald Trump). So for him to be hawking the fake birth certificate conspiracy theory might lead one to think that Corsi is either a very bad man or that he is crazy.

Recent commentary on Corsi points out that he is, in addition to being a birther, a 9/11 conspiracy nut and a believer in a theory that the center of the Earth contains an unlimited supply of oil. That’s some pretty heavy crazy. However, what has clinched it for me, the tipping point in my personal opinion of whether Corsi is crazy or not, is this remark he made:

Appearing on the Alex Jones Show, Corsi said that he now completely discounted the apparent efforts of Donald Trump to force the release of Obama’s birth certificate, stating, “I’m completely convinced at this point Donald Trump was subterfuge, that he…. was working with Obama.”

Paul Joseph Watson
InfoWars.com

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265 Responses to Crazy people

  1. avatar
    Majority Will May 23, 2011 at 1:05 pm #

    I was leaning toward very bad man.

  2. avatar
    Thrifty May 23, 2011 at 1:13 pm #

    Majority Will: I was leaning toward very bad man.

    Agreed. I think that Jerome Corsi is a perfectly sane, highly immoral, reasonably intelligent human being who doesn’t believe what he says, but is lacking enough in dignity and decency not to be shamed by it.

  3. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 1:33 pm #

    he is a scam artist, note he always has a fund raising made of any anti-Obama issue. He is now raising funds to sue Esquire Magazine (not really sue but get the paypal pushed). His billboard fundraising, his send your email fund raising, et. all. I feel sorry for those siily enough to push that paypal. THe fact that each issue gets a paypal is strong enough proof that he is a scammer.

  4. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 1:48 pm #

    I am not finding much in the way of serious debate here, on this issue. While you go about saying that you are such a nice guy to delete scornful comments, at the same time you offer the same put downs , in a backhand way.

    Taking Corsi’s view of Trumps possible duplicity out of context …was meant to unfairly ridicule. The question now is: does the released long form BC hold up to professional scrutiny? Unfortunately , it does not- not even close.

  5. avatar
    bjphysics May 23, 2011 at 1:58 pm #

    Marshal: I am not finding much in the way of serious debate here, on this issue. While you go about saying that you are such a nice guy to delete scornful comments, at the same time you offer the same put downs , in a backhand way. Taking Corsi’s view of Trumps possible duplicity out of context …was meant to unfairly ridicule. The question now is: does the released long form BC hold up to professional scrutiny? Unfortunately , it does not- not even close.

    Whatever

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/05/whatever/

  6. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 2:02 pm #

    “does the released long form BC hold up to professional scrutiny?”
    doesn’t need to, the State of Hawaii states “On April 27, 2011 President Barack Obama posted a certified copy of his original Certificate of Live Birth.”
    gives these links
    http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/News_Release_Birth_Certificate_042711.pdf
    .
    let me repeat that:
    State of Hawaii states “On April 27, 2011 President Barack Obama posted a certified copy of his original Certificate of Live Birth.”
    http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/obama.html
    .
    should I repeat that once more?

  7. avatar
    Thrifty May 23, 2011 at 2:10 pm #

    Marshal: The question now is: does the released long form BC hold up to professional scrutiny? Unfortunately , it does not- not even close.

    Well if you’re a birther and start with the conclusion, then try to make the facts conform to the conclusion, no.

  8. avatar
    Majority Will May 23, 2011 at 2:10 pm #

    richCares: State of Hawaii states “On April 27, 2011 President Barack Obama posted a certified copy of his original Certificate of Live Birth.”
    http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/obama.html

    State of Hawaii states “On April 27, 2011 President Barack Obama posted a certified copy of his original Certificate of Live Birth.”
    http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/obama.html

    I wanted to repeat it as well. Thanks.

    Then there’s the fact that the COLB was adequate for proof of birth in the United States.

    And that the President was never required to show either certified document to anyone.

  9. avatar
    Bovril May 23, 2011 at 2:15 pm #

    H’mmm define “professional scrutiny”..

    (ps that implicitly excludes nut jobs on the Internet with no understanding of law, data forensics, chain of custody, rukes if evidence, hearsay etc)

  10. avatar
    vma224 May 23, 2011 at 2:22 pm #

    As the State of Hawaii attests to and links to Obama’s long form, what is the AfterBirther talk of fraudulent certificate come from, the certificate released has been legally certified , is this the last stand of a failed attempt to remove Obama? Are they saying that Hawaii issues fraudulent birth certificates? There are close to 79 million people involved in the cover up. The Birther movement no longer has a goal, it has failed, yet the Birthers continue down the same failed path. Why is that?

  11. avatar
    Tarrant May 23, 2011 at 2:25 pm #

    Marshal:
    I am not finding much in the way of serious debate here, on this issue. While you go about saying that you are such a nice guy to delete scornful comments, at the same time you offer the same put downs , in a backhand way.

    Taking Corsi’s view of Trumps possible duplicity out of context …was meant to unfairly ridicule.The question now is: does the released long form BC hold up to professional scrutiny? Unfortunately, it does not- not even close.

    The thing is, it doesn’t have to. Let me repeat that. It. Doesn’t. Have. To. The question is, does the state back the document? The answer is “Yes”. That’s it. Case closed. These “professionals” wouldn’t even be allowed to testify if the BC issue went to court because the Constitution says that if the state certifies the document then it must be taken as real. Congress could, if they wanted, investigate, but the courts, via the Full Faith and Credit clause and Federal Rules of Evidence, won’t.

    Let’s look at an example – a trial is taking place and someone introduces a letter that they claim you wrote. The court is not going to go have competing experts “verify” that you wrote the letter. The first thing they will do is ask you if you actually did write the letter. If you say “Yes, I did write that letter” then the court in question isn’t going to bother with anything else. At that point, barring immense – and I mean immense – irregularities, which would have to be of a form where it is not just proved that you didn’t write it, but also proven that someone else DID, and that you would have reason to lie – they will simply reject any further questioning of the issue.

    Hawaii says the document is real. A court will ignore any and all arguments to the contrary because a joint group of Republican and Democratic state officials would have no reason to lie. Getting past the Constitution’s FFAC clause at that point is a hurdle almost no document could ever overcome (furthermore, you wouldn’t WANT it to be, else any police officer could say “Soooo…this is your state driver’s license? Well, I want your original license application and video of you in the DMV to prove it!”).

  12. avatar
    Thrifty May 23, 2011 at 2:27 pm #

    People like Corsi are professional liars. I think he knows that Barack Obama is a fully eligible natural born citizen, born in Hawaii, to an American mother and Kenyan father. He just lies and looks like a fool because money is more important than honesty or a good public image.

    I’m not sure what to make of the rank-and-file birthers who do believe this stuff though. I think that there are some folks who would be certifiable. Some folks have some way out there beliefs.

    But I think a lot of belief in Birtherism can be attributed to good old fashioned stubborness. I know that in my own life, I have clinged to beliefs in the face of strong evidence to the contrary. I dunno why. I guess I positioned myself in an adversarial mindset, whereby admitting I was wrong was giving a gift of sorts to an enemy. And who wants to give a gift to an enemy?

    Which is what I guess happens with birthers. They get so entrenched in their position, and develop a mindset of “us versus Obama”, that it becomes less about facts and more about being against Obama. Just look at the way anti-birthers are always labeled “liberals” or “Obots” and the like, regardless of their actual feelings about the president. The hardcore birther is trapped in a mind that is otherwise sane, but is dominated by a mentality of “An Obama supporter cannot be right!”

  13. avatar
    obsolete May 23, 2011 at 2:30 pm #

    Has anyone confirmed Corsi’s claims of a Harvard Phd? Scammers frequently list Harvard or other Ivy League schools for their fake credentials- the theory being that nobody checks the claims because nobody would be willing to lie so big.

    So, has anyone confirmed Corsi’s claims of a Harvard Phd?

  14. avatar
    J. Edward Tremlett May 23, 2011 at 2:31 pm #

    Corsi also writes Da Vinci Code knockoffs. All this is doing is applying a fantastic conspiracy plot to real life and pulling a lot of pseudoscience out of the ether to back it up.

  15. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 23, 2011 at 2:38 pm #

    obsolete: So, has anyone confirmed Corsi’s claims of a Harvard Phd?

    For reasons of no interest here, I had occasion to want to read Jerome Corsi’s PhD thesis from Harvard, and I was able to obtain a microfilm copy directly from the Harvard Library, thereby confirming his degree.

  16. avatar
    Scientist May 23, 2011 at 2:38 pm #

    Marshal: The question now is: does the released long form BC hold up to professional scrutiny? Unfortunately , it does not- not even close.

    it’s clearly a fraud, since the folks in Moneygall, Ireland toasted Obama over Guiness with “Welcome home, Mr President!”

  17. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 2:39 pm #

    according to WikiPedia, he has Phd
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerome_Corsi
    interesting quote from a Corsi book:
    “Jerome R. Corsi and Craig R. Smith expose the fraudulent science that has been sold to the American people in order to enslave them — the belief that oil is a fossil fuel and a finite resource. On the contrary, this book presents authoritative research, currently known mostly in the scientific community, that oil is not a product of decaying dinosaurs and prehistoric forests. Rather, it is a natural product of the Earth. The scientific evidence cited by Corsi and Smith suggests that oil is constantly being produced by the Earth, far below the planet’s surface, and that it is brought to attainable depths by the centrifugal forces of the Earth’s rotation.
    are birthers silly enough to buy into this?

  18. avatar
    Scientist May 23, 2011 at 2:39 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Yes, I confirmed his degree back during the 2004 election. I even have a microfilm copy of his dissertation that I bought directly from the Harvard Library.

    What did he write his thesis on?

  19. avatar
    Suranis May 23, 2011 at 2:43 pm #

    Marshal:
    I am not finding much in the way of serious debate here, on this issue. While you go about saying that you are such a nice guy to delete scornful comments, at the same time you offer the same put downs , in a backhand way.

    Taking Corsi’s view of Trumps possible duplicity out of context …was meant to unfairly ridicule.The question now is: does the released long form BC hold up to professional scrutiny? Unfortunately, it does not- not even close.

    Hello there and welcome.

    If you are interested in serious debate might be interested in reading the discussion we had on the layers issue on this blog the day after the LFBC release, and the solutions we came up with

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/04/layers-and-layers-and-layers-oh-my/

    You might also enjoy reading the opinion of a real professional forensic expert on the long form.

    http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/428-After-Birth.html

    And in other news, I forgot to take my anti-depressant meds today. You see, even crazy people do think the long form is genuine. 🙂

  20. avatar
    Joey May 23, 2011 at 2:49 pm #

    There’s an interesting thread over at freerepublic.com, one of the main “birther” web sites.
    The founder and administrator of freerepublic, Jim Robinson found out that Jerome Corsi is going on 9/11 truther Alex Jones’ “Info-wars” program.
    Robinson is banning all things Corsi from freerepublic because of Corsi hawking his book on Info-wars.
    The birthers at freerepublic are up in arms but Robinson is standing his ground, no Alex Jones conspiracies and no more Corsi.
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2723478/posts?q=1&;page=1#1

  21. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 3:12 pm #

    Suranis, I liked that link, especially this quote from it:
    “Before I begin, I need to point out two critical items for this evaluation. First, digital document analysis can detect manipulation, but it cannot determine whether the original subject is authentic. The authenticity can only be determined by the State of Hawaii, and they already said that it is authentic.”
    .
    I will type the primary comment slowly so that a birther can follow it:
    “The authenticity can only be determined by the State of Hawaii, and they already said that it is authentic.”

  22. avatar
    Tarrant May 23, 2011 at 3:13 pm #

    Also on free republic, Jim Robinson has had to get involved in a number of recent birther threads and demand that birthers stop harassing, calling Obama supporters, etc. longstanding freepers just because they aren’t birthers. In some cases he’s had to practically threaten with a ban people who simply can’t accept that there might be people that aren’t Obama supporters but aren’t birthers (Robinson being one of them).

    I think this is similar to what’s happened with many of the core Republicans and why the upcoming Republican primaries will be fascinating – the candidates for too long winked an eye, dog-whistled, and didn’t confront the birthers, and let them take control. Now they’re out there and have “voting power” and the party doesn’t know what to do – they’re afraid to offend them and lose the not-insignificant number of votes they bring in the primary, but don’t want to say anything so concrete (“Yeah! He’s not eligible!”) that it could be used against them in a general election campaign commercial.

  23. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 3:17 pm #

    I think only one person above tried to address my concern in a serious manner, and I will look to where I was directed.

    The fact remains that the huge majority of forensic experts- I mean people who work with documents and printing for a living- they say the BC is a forgery, and not even a very good one. So we probably have a forged document, the state of Hawaii’s endorsement notwithstanding.

    Go to the videos, pro and con, like I did, and see for yourself The BC is a complete mess, this isn’t just about the layers.

    ( PS , since it does seem to be a forgery, the con videos vastly outnumber the pro, this cant be helped much. If the forgery was made better, then yes, you might have more to pick from to support the BC)

    If it was real, why wait over two yrs to release it? Why release that prior abbreviated form, and then tell the world that this is it, you are not going to get anything else, and if you ask for the long form, you are crazy, ? Dems and others jumped all over McCain about the same issue until Congress intervened….

    Obama is phoney baloney, hes not a great liberal, hes just a statist corporatist banker pawn, not much different than that goofy George Bush…If you defend Obama you defend budget busting, warmongering, and police state laws, so lets send Bushbama packing. asap

  24. avatar
    Hawaiiborn May 23, 2011 at 3:24 pm #

    Joey:
    There’s an interesting thread over at freerepublic.com, one of the main “birther” web sites.
    The founder and administrator of freerepublic, Jim Robinson found out that Jerome Corsi is going on 9/11 truther Alex Jones’ “Info-wars” program.
    Robinson is banning all things Corsi from freerepublic because of Corsi hawking his book on Info-wars.
    The birthers at freerepublic are up in arms but Robinson is standing his ground, no Alex Jones conspiracies and no more Corsi.
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2723478/posts?q=1&;page=1#1

    they shouldn’t have endorsed or supported corsi since the beginning because he’s been on alex jones’ show several times, pimping 9/11 conspiracy theories.

  25. avatar
    Hawaiiborn May 23, 2011 at 3:28 pm #

    Marshal:

    The fact remains that the huge majority of forensic experts- I mean people who work with documents and printing for a living- they say the BC is a forgery, and not even a very good one. So we probably have a forged document, the state of Hawaii’s endorsement notwithstanding.

    The only “expert” that has said anything was an “affidavit” by one Douglas Vogt, of whic Dr. has already addressed as to why its nothing but Bull.

    there isn’t a “huge majority” of any forensic experts that say its a forgery. its the repeated claims of debunked non-authorities.

    Marshal:

    Go to the videos, pro and con, like I did,and see for yourself The BC is a complete mess, this isn’t just about the layers.

    ( PS , since it does seem to bea forgery, the con videos vastly outnumber the pro, this cant be helped much. If the forgery was made better, then yes, you might have more to pick from to support the BC)

    And you fail yet again ath all this BS on the PDF of the COLB is irrelavant.

    As has been stated over and over again, all that matters is the original document from which the PDF’s were made.

    You know the one that birthers haven’t seen in person, yet many reporters have, and attest to the authenticity of the COLB and that it even has a raised seal.d Bushbama packing. asap

  26. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 3:28 pm #

    “I mean people who work with documents and printing for a living- they say the BC is a
    forgery”
    then you wouldn’t mind naming a few of them would you. That would be an amazing thing to do do right, name a few experts, give a little proof. Not hard to do is it.
    .
    in addition, explaiin why forensic proof is necessary as “The authenticity can only be determined by the State of Hawaii, and they already said that it is authentic.”

  27. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 23, 2011 at 3:33 pm #

    richCares: He is now raising funds to sue Esquire Magazine

    Are you confusing Corsi with Farah?

  28. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 23, 2011 at 3:36 pm #

    Marshal: I am not finding much in the way of serious debate here, on this issue. While you go about saying that you are such a nice guy to delete scornful comments, at the same time you offer the same put downs , in a backhand way.

    Taking Corsi’s view of Trumps possible duplicity out of context …was meant to unfairly ridicule. The question now is: does the released long form BC hold up to professional scrutiny? Unfortunately , it does not- not even close.

    After the first 1,000 or so articles, I kinda got tired of debating people who won’t listen. If you dig back in to the 93,000 comments you will find some good debate, but after 3 years, you don’t debate the boy who keeps crying “wolf.”

    Since you claim Corsi’s remarks are out of context, I will check up on that. I think I faithfully reported my source, but that source is not the original.

    There are a number of articles here on the authenticity of the long form birth certificate, but I frankly have not seen ANYTHING worth debating. The only really qualified expert I know of is the one quoted by Fox News who said it was legit.

    But hey, if you think you have something worth debating, pick out something specific (not a mind-numbingly long text dump) and verifiable, and I’m sure you will get a debate. However, I never debate people who won’t show up here, and that includes all of your YouTube document experts.

  29. avatar
    Tarrant May 23, 2011 at 3:38 pm #

    Marshal:
    I think only one person above tried to address my concernin a serious manner, and I will look to where I was directed.

    The fact remainsthat the huge majority of forensic experts- I mean people who work with documents and printing for a living- they say the BC is a forgery, and not even a very good one. So we probably have a forged document, the state of Hawaii’s endorsement notwithstanding.

    Go to the videos, pro and con, like I did,and see for yourself The BC is a complete mess, this isn’t just about the layers.

    ( PS , since it does seem to bea forgery, the con videos vastly outnumber the pro, this cant be helped much. If the forgery was made better, then yes, you might have more to pick from to support the BC)

    If it was real, why wait over two yrs to release it? Why release that prior abbreviated form, and then tell the world that this is it, you are not going to get anything else, and if you ask for the long form, you are crazy, ?Dems and others jumped all over McCain about the same issue until Congress intervened….

    Obama is phoney baloney, hes not a great liberal, hes just a statist corporatist banker pawn, not much different than that goofy George Bush…If you defend Obama you defend budget busting, warmongering, and police state laws, so lets send Bushbama packing. asap

    First, if one believes it is real, one is not going to create a video. Furthermore, most “real” experts are not going to make one as it will affect their career. Note that being someone that uses the software often is NOT the same as being a certified expert in analysis. You see lots of the former, not of the latter.

    Second, the belief that Democrats were “up in arms” and hounding McCain for “months” is revisionist history. None of the Republican candidates really brought it up, and none of the Democratic candidates did either. There were a few lawsuits filed, but there was no amazing groundswell and the Senate quickly and with little fanfare declared him eligible (in a completely non-binding resolution).

    Third, if you want to oppose Obama on policy (your last paragraphs), GREAT! That is your right. You can work to elect a different candidate. As was often said to Robert Clark, one does not have to be a birther to disagree with him on policy and you don’t need a birther excuse to do so. So drop the birtherism, and simply declare the truth – you disagree with the man on a political level, and work to elect someone of your choice.

  30. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP May 23, 2011 at 3:39 pm #

    Brace yourselves for the onslaught of Irish birth certificates for President Obama. He was in Ireland today, and the PM of Ireland said that President Obama had “come home.” Then the president said that he had “come home to Ireland” in his speech just a few minutes later.

  31. avatar
    Suranis May 23, 2011 at 3:42 pm #

    Marshal: The fact remains that the huge majority of forensic experts- I mean people who work with documents and printing for a living- they say the BC is a forgery, and not even a very good one.

    Name three.

  32. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 23, 2011 at 3:46 pm #

    Marshal: The fact remains that the huge majority of forensic experts- I mean people who work with documents and printing for a living- they say the BC is a forgery

    OK, we can start there. Let’s debate that sentence. You start with the affirmative position and explain why you believe that statement is true.

    If the rest of the folks would hold off commenting, I would appreciate it. We can’t expect Marshal to keep half a dozen conversations going on at the same time.

  33. avatar
    Greg May 23, 2011 at 3:48 pm #

    First, Marshal, I have seen no “expert” who could be certified by a court take issue with the document. I have seen only pseudo-experts and Internet experts.

    Second, set aside all of the “experts” and look at the question logically. Hawaii, on Monday gave Obama two pieces of paper they claimed were the original, certified, official “long form” birth certificates.

    Were these the forgeries? If so, then all the experts have been proven moot, because they are talking about layers and PDF anomalies, buy Hawaii didn’t give Obama PDFs, they handed his lawyer two pieces of paper.

    On Wednesday, Obama released the long form to the world and posted a PDF of it on his website.

    Was that the forgery? Okay, why, then did Hawaii not notice that what Obama posted online wasn’t what they had handed him on Monday? Two high-ranking officials looked at the original and the copy they handed him on Monday and said they were the same. Either forgery was of so little import that no one would notice it, or the Hawaiian officials are in on it.

    If the Hawaiian officials are in on it, though, it seems stupid and a half to give an unforged copy to Obama on Monday and not object on Wednesday. In fact, though, they endorsed the PDF released on Wednesday – pointing everyone there from their website. So, if we assume a Wednesday forgery, there are, floating around, two copies that are unforged and waiting to blow up in Obama’s face, right?

    Any claim of forgery needs to deal with reality before we even get to dealing with the fake experts!

  34. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 3:48 pm #

    The Suranis link: (I will type very slowly so you can follow it)
    “Before I begin, I need to point out two critical items for this evaluation. First, digital document analysis can detect manipulation, but it cannot determine whether the original subject is authentic. The authenticity can only be determined by the State of Hawaii, and they already said that it is authentic.”
    .
    now explain how you looking at a computer image enables you to spot forgery. Not a single birther expert has looked at the base document, only scanned copies. Does this go over your head. Do I need to type more slowly.

  35. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 3:53 pm #

    I don’t think the use of ‘African’ has been satisfactorily explained, or why the birth order number is wrong compared to the Nordyke twins, or why you have faded pixels inside the doc and sharp pixles toward the outside, or why Onaka’s stamp has a misspelled word, when hundreds of his other stamps don’t show this, or why the non curvature of words like ‘male’ appears, when there should be some curving. Very little is correct with this doc.

    I’d love to debate Obama people on issues like warmongering, budget busting, police state laws and tactics like renewing the Patriot Act or TSA gate raping that he could end with one phone call but wont, etc but offering a false doc like this a crime, and it is an issue also.

  36. avatar
    dunstvangeet May 23, 2011 at 3:53 pm #

    Marshal:
    The fact remains that the huge majority of forensic experts- I mean people who work with documents and printing for a living- they say the BC is a forgery, and not even a very good one. So we probably have a forged document, the state of Hawaii’s endorsement notwithstanding.

    Which experts? What are their credentials? Are any of them qualified Forensic Document Examiners? Do you even have their names, or are you just going to be general about it? If you’re going to do an appeal to authority here, you had better be ready to back up the credentials of those supposed experts. How many of them would be accepted in a court of law as actual experts? What are their degrees in? How many cases have they testified in as Forensic Document Examiners? This is what we’re getting at. They’re not actually experts any more than the guy on the soapbox yelling about how the Rapture has happened and we’ve all been left behind is an expert in any sort of religion.

    Go to the videos, pro and con, like I did,and see for yourself The BC is a complete mess, this isn’t just about the layers.

    And the videos are basically a bunch of hooey. What we have on our side is a document that has a distinct chain of evidence and transfer, endorsed as being “a true copy or abstract of the record on file in the Hawaii Department of Health.” by the State Registrar. On your side, you have a bunch of random people that remind me of Grandpa Simpson yelling at the clouds, and then you want us to believe that the incoherent rants are somehow credible.

    Fact is that we have the facts on our side, and all you have is conjecture that confirms to your already concrete belief that Obama is ineligible. Obama was right. Nothing will convince you that he’s eligible.

    Funny thing is I expected that this exact thing would happen if Obama actually released it. 1. They’d claim that it was false. 2. They claim that it doesn’t prove anything. 3. They’d claim that it doesn’t matter anyways, because he’s ineligible by another reason.

    ( PS , since it does seem to bea forgery, the con videos vastly outnumber the pro, this cant be helped much. If the forgery was made better, then yes, you might have more to pick from to support the BC)

    So, you have a forgery that is endorsed and confirmed by the Hawaii Department of Health as being the “true copy or abstract of the record on file in the Hawaii Department of Health”. It is signed by the Registrar of the Hawaii Department of Health, and there are affidavits by the director of the Hawaii Department of Health that they personally witnessed the entire process from the creation of the document, and handing it off to the personal representative of the President of the United States. The Hawaii Department of Health has further linked directly to the online version that the White House set up on their website, therefore giving it more credibility. Furthermore, nobody with any actual credibility has ever said that it’s a forgery, and the Hawaii Department of Health would be in the position to know.

    On the other side, you have a wild conspiracy theory that the Hawaii Department of Health forged a document in order to cover for Obama, and yet did it in such a horrible way that they left clues that internet yahoos can point to and say definitivally that it’s a forgery, despite having no actual background in Forensic Document Examination.

    If it was real, why wait over two yrs to release it?

    Because Obama released, in the words of the Hawaii Department of Health, “a valid Hawaii state birth certificate” over 2 years ago. Furthermore, in order to get this thing released, he had to ask for an exception to the Hawaii Department of Health rules from the Director of the Hawaii Department of Health, which was only released to Obama because he was the President of the United States.

    Why release that prior abbreviated form, and then tell the world that this is it, you are not going to get anything else, and if you ask for the long form, you are crazy, ?

    Because, that is all that the Hawaii Department of Health actually normally releases. When you request a birth certificate, that is what you get. It is legal proof in any court of law to the facts of birth. It is sufficient to prove that Obama was born in Hawaii to anybody who isn’t actually insane.

    Dems and others jumped all over McCain about the same issue until Congress intervened….

    McCain was an interesting legal question that hadn’t been answered. Jus Soli has a 500+ years of history of being Natural Born Citizen. There are previous precedents of being born outside the United States (as in an actual state), but born inside a territory (Charles Curtis, Al Gore, and Barry Goldwater come to mind). However, there has been no actual precedent for someone born a U.S. Citizen, but born outside any sort of territory of the United States. Generally, the opinion was that McCain was eligible, but that was still an interesting legal question.

    Nobody, and I do mean nobody, ever attacked him personally on this, ever suggested that his mother fraudently registered his birth and that the entire world was in a conspiracy to hide the fact that he was somehow secretly born half-way around the world from the place where he was actually born.

    Obama is phoney baloney, hes not a great liberal, hes just a statist corporatist banker pawn, not much different than that goofy George Bush…If you defend Obama you defend budget busting, warmongering, and police state laws, so lets send Bushbama packing. asap

    Just as I thought. I’ve never met a true birther who would actually vote for Obama even if they somehow marachaously believed that he was eligible. I’m still waiting for that mythical birther.

  37. avatar
    Zixi of Ix May 23, 2011 at 3:58 pm #

    Dr Conspiracy said: I know of a least one notable birther who really is undergoing treatment for mental disease, but I would never say that name, nor allude to who it is.

    I can think of a few who need it, and don’t mean that in an insulting or degrading way at all. There shouldn’t be anything shameful about getting mental health treatment.

    I’ve read too many birthers comments which indicate that they have alienated family members, friends, and/or coworkers with their obsession. It can’t possibly be healthy.

    The offhanded way in which some birthers describe family alienation is nothing short of tragic. Being banned from seeing your adult children or grandchildren because you won’t stop hammering away at loved ones who don’t agree with your political views is incredibly sad. The fact that they can easily dismiss people they were formerly close with isn’t healthy.

    If I ever have any friends who were so afflicted, I hope they will listen long enough to let someone help them find help.

  38. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 4:05 pm #

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2L5a_KS6iw

    here is one of many….

  39. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 4:11 pm #

    hey Marshall, I apologize, I can’t type any slower, so convincing you is a waste of time, good luck with your objective, whatever that is.
    .
    as for the “African”, African exchange students I met never used the American racial terms, ever. They call themselves African. You don’t have to accept that, but get a helmet that can lessen the banging of your head against the walls. The birther issue is gone, staying there is not a healthy thing to do. In 2012 don’t vote for him, OK. What is your end game, prevent Obama’s kids from running for office? Last week US Soldiers cheered Obama, today thousands of Irish cheered Obama and America. I guess you don’t like that

  40. avatar
    Greg May 23, 2011 at 4:15 pm #

    Marshal: I don’t think the use of African’ has been satisfactorily explained

    How is it explained by forgery?

    I repeat. On Monday, the Department of Health handed Obama’s lawyer 2 copies of the long form birth certificate that the Director and the Registrar personally verified were exact copies of what they had in their files.

    Do you imagine that the files had been doctored to say “African,” or was the race changed to African after Hawaii handed Obama the copies? If it was the former, why prattle on about layers and such? If it was the latter, how did the director and Registrar not notice that the race had changed on Wednesday?

    It’s not like the COLB, released in 2008 said something different. It’s not like the COLB in 2008 wasn’t attacked because it said “African,” too! The Director and Registrar must have known that the father’s race was an issue to birthers – the DOH had been asked about it specifically in the past!

    (NB: The Registrar swore in 2008 that the COLB was a true abstract of what the long form said. He has never said otherwise. He has never cast doubt on the accuracy of the COLB, and hasn’t mentioned that what he attested to on Monday was different than what was released on Wednesday.)

    Also, the “African” race has been discussed, thoroughly on this blog in multiple posts by the author, since 2008. How, specifically, is he wrong?

    Marshal: or why the birth order number is wrong compared to the Nordyke twins,

    This, too, has been discussed by Dr. C. And, now, we have a third individual to compare, and his birth certificate number suggests that, if your theory is true, that hundreds of children were born on the Saturday after Obama. Or, it suggests that, like Dr. C. has claimed, the birth certificates were numbered in alphabetical order – Nordyke, Obama, Waidelich.

    Marshal: or why you have faded pixels inside the doc and sharp pixles toward the outside, or why Onaka’s stamp has a misspelled word, when hundreds of his other stamps don’t show this, or why the non curvature of words like male’ appears, when there should be some curving.

    You think Obama was born a female?

    Why would the forgers recreate every cell? They were handed a real, physical document, 2 copies in fact, on Monday, and surely those copies said that Obama was a male child.

    If it didn’t say that Obama was male, wouldn’t the Director and Registrar have noticed it?

    Marshal: Very little is correct with this doc.

    It fits the facts as we know them. It confirms the COLB. It confirms the newspaper announcements. It confirms the letter Obama sent to Kapiolani Hospital. It confirms the remembrances of Waidelich’s mother. It confirms the remembrances of that teacher that remembered talking with Dr. West. It confirms every detail provided by extraneous evidence.

    And it accords with reality, where the DOH handed two physical copies of the long form to Obama’s attorney on Monday, a PDF was released of those copies on Wednesday, and no one complained that they were not the same as the copies given on Monday!

    Marshal: I’d love to debate Obama people on issues like warmongering, budget busting, police state laws and tactics like renewing the Patriot Act or TSA gate raping that he could end with one phone call but wont,

    None of which make him ineligible.

  41. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 4:19 pm #

    “here is one of many….”
    another fake expert that did not see the base document, you cannot judge the validaity of a document by looking at a scanned copy. In a court of law the Hawaii statements are all that is necesarry, “The authenticity can only be determined by the State of Hawaii, and they already said that it is authentic.” So the “fake” thing a sham to get paypal’s pushed. But go ahead keep your fantasy, let it guide through a life of misery. push that paypal.

  42. avatar
    misha May 23, 2011 at 4:20 pm #

    Marshal: So we probably have a forged document, the state of Hawaii’s endorsement notwithstanding.

    You have just accused at least 10 people of perjury. Name one lawyer who will file perjury charges.

    Marshal: The fact remains that the huge majority of forensic experts- I mean people who work with documents and printing for a living- they say the BC is a forgery, and not even a very good one.

    Name them, their CVs, and provide links.

    You’re new here, so I’ll repeat this: Linda Lingle is Jewish. She felt McCain/Palin would be far better for Israel, than Obama. If she could have found anything, the GOP would have used it with glee.

    Sorry pal.

  43. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 23, 2011 at 4:21 pm #

    Marshal: I don’t think the use of African’ has been satisfactorily explained

    You really don’t seen to understand what debate is. In a debate you take a position and you support it with evidence and reason. Debating is not throwing out an opinion and expecting everybody to prove you wrong.

    And for the record, I explained “African” in my article, The African Race, over two years ago.

  44. avatar
    BatGuano May 23, 2011 at 4:21 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:

    If the rest of the folks would hold off commenting, I would appreciate it. We can’t expect Marshal to keep half a dozen conversations going on at the same time.

    will do and look forward to your debate.

  45. avatar
    dunstvangeet May 23, 2011 at 4:23 pm #

    Marshal:
    I don’t think the use of African’ has been satisfactorily explained,

    Actually, that has been explained, and explained for the last 3 years. The fact that you stuck your head in the sand for the last 3 years has absolutely no bearing on this. Hawaii Department of Health allows self-identification for those fields. I have no trouble believing that someone from Africa would identify themselves as African, especially since that is how they were identified in an Kenyan Census as “African”. Do you? Other entries that I’ve seen in there is “Japanese/Hawaiian” and “Caucasian Hawaiian”. How does that fit into your predefined categories?

    or why the birth order number is wrong compared to the Nordyke twins

    That’s also easy. There was another birth certificate for someone born on the day after Obama. His birth certificate was transferred on the same day’s as Obama’s to the Hawaii Department of Health. His number is a good 300 after Obama’s and the Nordykes. The simpliest explanation is that these numbers have no exact sorting between date and time and the number. It’s much more likely that they were given in a stack. Some have been speculating some sort of alphabetic sorting (which would put Obama right after Nordyke)

    , or why you have faded pixels inside the doc and sharp pixles toward the outside

    Have you ever worked with photocopiers, where you actually photocopy something? It’s easily explained if you have.

    I’ll end it there for now.

  46. avatar
    Greg May 23, 2011 at 4:24 pm #

    Marshal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2L5a_KS6iw

    Posted by “stormcloudsgathering” a guy who believes that flouridation is evil. It’s a repost of kdenniger’s video. He’s “Former CEO of MCSNet in Chicago, now trading the capital markets for a living.”

    Please explain how either of these folks count as an expert in document analysis?

  47. avatar
    Thrifty May 23, 2011 at 4:25 pm #

    Marshal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2L5a_KS6iwhere is one of many….

    Random dude with a YouTube channel does not equal document expert.

  48. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 23, 2011 at 4:25 pm #

    Marshal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2L5a_KS6iw

    here is one of many….

    A URL is not a debate. You came here complaining about the lack of debate, yet seem singularly unwilling to start one.

  49. avatar
    Scientist May 23, 2011 at 4:27 pm #

    Marshal: I don’t think the use of African’ has been satisfactorily explained

    Since your argument is that everyone knows that “Negro” was what people used in 1961 (even when they were actually from the continent of Africa) wouldn’t a forger know that too? I mean to my mind, the so called “flaws” that you seem to find actually argue for authenticity, since someone forging an important document woulld take great care, while a civil servant preparing one of the 1,000 or so birth certificates for the month, as they did every month, wolld be more likely to be sloppy.

    If I may, though, since Barack Obama obviously exists, then he must have been born somewhere. Would you be so kind as to suuggest whhere and provide evidence to support your argument.

    Marshal: If you defend Obama you defend budget busting, warmongering, and police state laws, so lets send Bushbama packing. asap

    I’m sure you’ve read the Constitution. You know that if you send Obama “packing” Biden takes over. Even if you can get rid of him, there’s Boner. Are you seriouslly pretendiing theyy’d be an improvement. I mean it’s not like Bernie Sanders or Dennis Kucinich is in line. So whomever you might support can”t possibly take overr until 2013. That’s the breaks, kid..

  50. avatar
    JoZeppy May 23, 2011 at 4:29 pm #

    Marshal: The fact remains that the huge majority of forensic experts- I mean people who work with documents and printing for a living- they say the BC is a forgery, and not even a very good one. So we probably have a forged document, the state of Hawaii’s endorsement notwithstanding.

    The please list them all. I’ve seen one real expert, that has actually testified in court as a computer expert, say there is no evidence of any tampering. I’ve seen another crack-pot affidavit full of every bit of birther b.s. he could throw in…but hardly what I would consider an expert. And then, of course, there is the issue that what really matters is the paper copy, and the fact that the state of Hawaii back the document up. So again, you have exactly nothing.

    Marshal: Go to the videos, pro and con, like I did, and see for yourself The BC is a complete mess, this isn’t just about the layers.
    ( PS , since it does seem to be a forgery, the con videos vastly outnumber the pro, this cant be helped much. If the forgery was made better, then yes, you might have more to pick from to support the BC)

    So now anyone who posts something on youtube is an expert qualified to testify in a court of law??? And on top of that, we judge things by the number of videos people post on youtube? You do realize how insanely stupid that is? I have no trouble, even today, finding countless videos on youtube claiming the rapture will occur on May 21st. I wonder what that must mean? Oh yeah, that any idiot can put up a video on the internet. Every time I think I’ve heard the dumbest comment out of a birther, you guys just insist on one upping each other.

    Marshal: If it was real, why wait over two yrs to release it? Why release that prior abbreviated form, and then tell the world that this is it, you are not going to get anything else, and if you ask for the long form, you are crazy, ? Dems and others jumped all over McCain about the same issue until Congress intervened….

    It wasn’t an abbreviated form. It was the official birth record that the State of Hawaii releases today. It is a document that on its own is legally sufficient to establish the facts of the President’s birth. As for your revisionist history, who exactly jumped all over McCain? Oh yeah, one crack pot birther named Berg…no where exactly have I heard that name before? Hardly “Dems and others” but a single nutter. And please note who co-sponsored that Senate resolution. The Democracts hardly had much interest in making anything of McCain’s birth, and to be honest, his status as a natural born citizen is actually a debatable question of law.

    Marshal: Obama is phoney baloney, hes not a great liberal, hes just a statist corporatist banker pawn, not much different than that goofy George Bush…If you defend Obama you defend budget busting, warmongering, and police state laws, so lets send Bushbama packing. asap

    And what exactly does that have to do with where he was born? But thank you for providing your real motivation for swallowing the most nonsensical agruments to undermine the President’s legitmacy.

  51. avatar
    vma224 May 23, 2011 at 4:37 pm #

    Not liking Obama nor his politics is shared by many conservatives. This valid and part of political discourse, it’s normal in our system of government. It’s what 2 party politics is about. The Birther stuff though is very silly. It is not political discourse, it is irrational hate. The main political action that birtherism brings is sure re-election of Obama as it makes people on the right appear obnoxious. Is it possible that Marshal works for Obama, Corsi says Trump worked for Obama. Fess up Marshal, do you work for Obama. Is your goal the re-election of Obama? Are you asking for donations?

  52. avatar
    Scientist May 23, 2011 at 4:40 pm #

    Greg: It’s a repost of kdenniger’s video. He’s “Former CEO of MCSNet in Chicago, now trading the capital markets for a living.”

    Denninger’s great claim to fame is calling the crash of 2008 (along with anyone who paid attention). So did I and sold a good part of my stocks in late 2007. However, Denninger has remained unflinchingly bearish since then and totally missed the market doubling from March 2009 to today (losing a bundle being short). I, on the other hand, started buying like crazy in March 2009 and only began selling some this month. So, I believe I am much smarter than Denninger and I say the b.c. is 100% genuine. Why should anyone believe Denninger rather than me?

  53. avatar
    Suranis May 23, 2011 at 4:40 pm #

    Marshal:
    I don’t think the use of African’ has been satisfactorily explained,

    Every single African exchange student I met in College, and a a few Blacks from africa I’ve met since have described themselves as African.

    or why the birth order number is wrong compared to the Nordyke twins,

    Why are you assuming the Nordykle twins Certs are genuine> You didn’t do any examination of them at all.

    In any case they are in order if you look at them alphabeticly.

    or why you have faded pixels inside the doc and sharp pixles toward the outside,

    Ever try scanning a book? Look at the left side of the BC. It curls away from the scanner as the original is park of a book. That means that the inside of the book was putting different pressure on the scanner of the photocopier than the other side. So the light diffusion would be slightly different.

    This is actually a point in favour of authenticity

    or why Onaka’s stamp has a misspelled word, when hundreds of his other stamps don’t show this,

    Have you personally seen hundreds of his stamps? I doubt anyone has. Besides he has seperatly authenticated that thats his stamp. I think he would know.

    In any case the X in TXE is clearly a H with some pits of ink missing if you magnify it to take a closer look. Or why hasnt anyone complained the the OF Beside it looks like an OP

    or why the non curvature of words like male’ appears, when there should be some curving. Very little is correct with this doc.

    Very little is correct with your questions. In any case the male is on the edge of the Curved part if the photocopy. The 2 beside it shows curving and the “Child” above it shows curving

    I’d love to debate Obama people on issues like warmongering, budget busting, police state laws and tactics likerenewing the Patriot Act or TSA gate raping that he could end with one phone call but wont, etc but offering a false doc like this a crime, and it is an issue also.

    Doesn’t look like you are interested in any of that to me.

  54. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 4:40 pm #

    Most people here are saying that the doc is legit , because the people associated with the doc say so….this is absurd.

  55. avatar
    Suranis May 23, 2011 at 4:42 pm #

    And by the way, Marshal, you have not named one single forensic expert that said it was a forgery despite repeated requests to do so.

    All I’ve seen from you are slogans. I’ve answered your questions, Now you answer the single question I and Dr C have put to you.

  56. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 4:43 pm #

    “African” is not a race and was not used in the Hawaii for birth doc in 1961

  57. avatar
    vma224 May 23, 2011 at 4:46 pm #

    “….this is absurd”
    Man, my irony meter broke on that one.
    again, dear birther “The authenticity can only be determined by the State of Hawaii, and they already said that it is authentic.” , the birther issue is over: Get a life.

  58. avatar
    Suranis May 23, 2011 at 4:46 pm #

    Marshal:
    Most people here are saying that the doc is legit , because the people associated with the doc say so….this is absurd.

    If you are a police officer, and you pull someone over and ask for their drivers license, then say it was a fake, if the driver was to pull out a letter from the department of transportation certifying that this license was genuine, and a letter from a lawyer stating the steps he took when he personally delivered it, and a letter from the governor that issued the license, and a letter from the head of the department AND the guy who stamped the license certifying that it was a real license, you would be a really foolish copy to keep insisting the license was a forgery.

    If the whitehouse had altered the document would the Hawai’i DOH have put a link to the Whitehouse form on their own website? Be serious.

  59. avatar
    Scientist May 23, 2011 at 4:47 pm #

    Marshal: Most people here are saying that the doc is legit , because the people associated with the doc say so….this is absurd

    So, if I have a $100 bill and the Federal Reserve says it’s legit, but some guy on YouTube says it’s counterfeit I should throw it out, right? I mean just because the Federal Reserve ISSUES the bills, doesn’t mean they can vouch for it.

    Can you please tell me whose expertise on Hawaiian State doxcuments is suuperior to the State of Hawaii’s?

  60. avatar
    Thrifty May 23, 2011 at 4:48 pm #

    Marshal: “African” is not a race and was not used in the Hawaii for birth doc in 1961

    It’s self reported. It’s not a multiple choice question. This has been explained to you.

  61. avatar
    Greg May 23, 2011 at 4:49 pm #

    Marshal: Most people here are saying that the doc is legit , because the people associated with the doc say so….this is absurd.

    What’s absurd is to think that the people associated with the document on Monday would hand a non-forged document to Obama’s lawyer then not object when the document was produced in forged form on Wednesday.

    That’s what you are claiming when you say that the PDF was forged, electronically.

    If the Hawaiian officials were in on the forgery, why were they not in on the forgery ON MONDAY?!?

    Marshal: “African” is not a race and was not used in the Hawaii for birth doc in 1961

    This claim has been discussed and debunked. Here, for example. Hawaii used whatever the father said. The question specifically asks what the father considers himself to be, and allows the person filling out the form to check “other” and write in what the father answers.

    So, prove to me that Kenyans didn’t refer to themselves as African. Given that they were instructed to do so for the Kenyan census, I think that such proof won’t be forthcoming!

  62. avatar
    Suranis May 23, 2011 at 4:50 pm #

    Marshal:
    “African” is not a race and was not used in the Hawaii for birth doc in 1961

    No other place in the world used the word negro in 1961, or ever. Its an American term only. If Obamas father had described himself as Negro that would be a cause of suspicion as HE was a foreigner. I’d never heard of the word.

    And seriously if you asked an African what he is He would probably say his tribe or African before saying his home country. That’s the culture of the continent.

  63. avatar
    dunstvangeet May 23, 2011 at 4:52 pm #

    Marshal:
    “African” is not a race and was not used in the Hawaii for birth doc in 1961

    Tell me, what were all the things used in the birth documents in 1961? If you are asserting that, then you must have a list of things that were used.

    Tell me, is “Caucasian Hawaiian” used? Is “Japanese/Hawaiian” used? How do those actually conform to your little list. I’ve seen both of those on birth certificates provided by birthers.

    As far as “African”, in the 1963 Kenyan Census, African was a valid answer for race. So, why do you have a hard time believing that someone from Kenya would identify themselves as “African”?

  64. avatar
    bjphysics May 23, 2011 at 4:58 pm #

    Marshal: “African” is not a race and was not used in the Hawaii for birth doc in 1961

    If my parents are Chinese immigrants living in San Francisco at the time of my birth there, can they have their race listed as WHITE on my birth certificate in 1961?

  65. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 5:00 pm #

    I attended University of Hawaii in 1961 and knew African exchange students, possibly even Obama’s father. They referred to their race as “African”, the 1960’s Kenyan census instructions suggest using “African” as a race. In Hawaii nationalities often used as race, my daugter’s BC shows father Polish, mother Japanese.Among the races are Chinese, Filipino, Hawaiian, German, White, Polynesian, etc. My nephew’s says Okinawan. You need to let this obsession go, find and support a candidate to oppose Obama in 2012. Stop wasting your time on the dead birther issue. This irrational hate can hurt you and your family. It gets you nowhere. Unless of course your goal is to re-elct Obama.

  66. avatar
    sactosintolerant May 23, 2011 at 5:05 pm #

    You know how they have Adopt a Highway programs where you help clean part of the highway? I suggest an Adopt a Birther program… I’ll do my part by reimbursing one lucky birther the cost of a logic class at their local junior college if they provide me a grade report (A- or higher!) and all receipts. If we all did this, we could change the world!

  67. avatar
    Hawaiiborn May 23, 2011 at 5:08 pm #

    Marshal:I don’t think the use of African’ has been satisfactorily explained

    http://www.hist.umn.edu/~rmccaa/IPUMSI/CensusForms/Africa/ke1962ef_kenya_enumeration_forms.en.pdf

    Column 5. Race.- Write European, Arab, Somali, or African, etc. Asians write Indian or Pakistan.

    since Obama Sr. was from Kenya, he would follow the standards of what his nation would ascribe themselves to be. Not a term he would be unfamiliar with (and the use of Negro was rarely used in Hawaii)

  68. avatar
    Hawaiiborn May 23, 2011 at 5:12 pm #

    According to the 1962 Kenya Census, they would call themselves African

    http://www.hist.umn.edu/~rmccaa/IPUMSI/CensusForms/Africa/ke1962ef_kenya_enumeration_forms.en.pdf

  69. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 5:12 pm #

    African is not a race…If a Kenyan self identifies, they would likely use their tribal designation, since they are so proud of their tribe. Obama Sr. never lived with Stanley Dunham as man and wife, I doubt he was in the same hospital with her during the birth, wherever that was. I dont think Sr. was there to insist on the African designation, which would be a very rare thing no matter what. Were there afro-polish self designators also? The Hawaii birth docs in 1961 had about eight racial designations, and African wasn’t one.

    The reason a forger might have messed up and used African is easy- this person either was ignorant of the proper terms used in 1961, or felt inner pressure to conform to some sense of political correctness. ( If the doc were correct, it would use negro)

    Also,can someone produce that third persons BC, so we can see if it looks right, to check the birth order numbers.

    The ad hominem attack on the youtube guy has been noted. This happens constantly, thank you very much. Anyone want to analyze what was said in the vid?

  70. avatar
    Thrifty May 23, 2011 at 5:15 pm #

    Marshal: The ad hominem attack on the youtube guy has been noted. This happens constantly, thank you very much. Anyone want to analyze what was said in the vid?

    How about you present your own points instead of regurgitating links? You presented the Youtube guy as an expert in document analysis without providing any qualifications.

  71. avatar
    Tarrant May 23, 2011 at 5:16 pm #

    Marshal:
    Most people here are saying that the doc is legit , because the people associated with the doc say so….this is absurd.

    No. They aren’t claiming it is real because Obama says so. They are claiming it is real because Hawaii says so, and they issued the document. There is no other higher authority. You can’t “debunk” the issuing authority as their word trumps anyone else’s.

    When you show your driver’s license to a police officer, he isn’t taking your word for it – it seems like it, but in reality he’s taking the state’s word for it. If it went to court, they wouldn’t ask you, they’d ask the state if it was a valid license. If the state says yes, then the matter is closed.

    RIO last week would try to counter that argument by saying “Well, sometimes people go and make a fake ID”. But the state isn’t going to stand by such a document. If the state certifies it as authentic, then authentic it must be. In this case, they have stated more than once that:

    1. Both the original COLB and this long certificate are authentic.
    2. That the race of the father was recorded as given by the father, NOT just a box checked by an attendant without input.
    3. They provided a complete chain of custody from their offices to Obama including witnessing the copying of the original document.

    It is you that has to overcome that burden, and it is a massive one to overcome. And it isn’t just a burden resulting from Congressional law (which it is), or the Federal Rules of Evidence (which it also is), it’s one placed by the Constitution by way of the Full Faith and Credit Clause, which essentially states that if a State certifies a document is real (and in this case they do) and it meets guidelines defined by Congress (and the COLB does) then under the Constitution all other states MUST accept it as valid.

    If you give something to me, and I say “Hey, Marshal gave this to me!”

  72. avatar
    Thrifty May 23, 2011 at 5:21 pm #

    I was reading an article on Yahoo News today about a species of stink bugs that came over from Asia in 1998. I see the ugly little buggers all the time around my house. They’re very slow and easy to kill. Just grab a paper towel and walk up to it, no more stink bug. Apparently they’re a huge pestilence because there are so many of them. No matter how many you kill, there’s plenty more.

    Birthers are like that too. No matter how many you get rid of, there’s always more.

  73. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 5:22 pm #

    I believe the fake was inserted into the record about April 2…. This fake is what we see now , and the WH and their partisan allies in Hawaiian records know its fake. They offered contradictory info- the doc is not half written, its all typed, and the records custodians are wrong but how could that be, hmm?

  74. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 5:23 pm #

    “No. They aren’t claiming it is real because Obama says so. They are claiming it is real because Hawaii says so”
    Tarrant, you did not type this slow enough for a birther, you need to slow down to match their reading skills. Marshall is locked into a myth driven by hate, poor guy.

  75. avatar
    Suranis May 23, 2011 at 5:24 pm #

    Marshal: The Hawaii birth docs in 1961 had about eight racial designations, and African wasn’t one.

    Actually what you are talking about was the census statistics designation. People went through the birth documentation and sorted the responses into 8 different categories for end of year statistics. That did not affect what was on the BC itself which was self reported. Africans would have been classed as Negro in the statistics numbers, but it had nothing whatsowver to do with what was written down on the BC itself.

    And you don’t think that Obama Senior could not have told his wife what to put down as his race?

    And you haven’t given one single person who proved the BC was a forgery.

    The reason a forger might have messed up and used African is easy- this person either was ignorant of the proper terms used in 1961, or felt inner pressure to conform to some sense of political correctness.

    Guess what term was used for Obama Sr.s race on the 2008 released COLB? That’s right, African. I didn.t hear anyone screaming about African not being valid or anything about political correctness over the last 3 years, did you?

    You didn’t even know African was on the 2008 BC, did you?

    Marshal: The ad hominem attack on the youtube guy has been noted. This happens constantly, thank you very much. Anyone want to analyze what was said in the vid?

    I don’t see you analyzing the evidence I and others gave you. Why should we bother if you don’t?

  76. avatar
    Thrifty May 23, 2011 at 5:29 pm #

    Marshal: I believe the fake was inserted into the record about April 2…. This fake is what we see now , and the WH and their partisan allies in Hawaiian records know its fake. They offered contradictory info- the doc is not half written, its all typed, and the records custodians are wrong but how could that be, hmm?

    As it must, the argument boils down to “everyone is in on it”.

  77. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 5:29 pm #

    Guys, there is almost nothing correct about the BC, face it.

  78. avatar
    Foggy May 23, 2011 at 5:30 pm #

    For what it’s worth, our guest on Reality Check Radio last Thursday, Jonathan Kay (author of Among the Truthers) said that he had personally interviewed both Jerome Corsi and Joseph Farah, and he had no doubt that they are what he called “true believers,” not just pretending to believe in birtherism in order to sell books.

  79. avatar
    Hawaiiborn May 23, 2011 at 5:31 pm #

    Marshal:
    Guys, there is almost nothing correct about the BC, face it.

    Yet you can’t provide evidence that there is anything wrong with it. Please go back to the la-la land you live in. It seems you can’t handle reality

  80. avatar
    bjphysics May 23, 2011 at 5:34 pm #

    bjphysics: If my parents are Chinese immigrants living in San Francisco at the time of my birth there, can they have their race listed as WHITE on my birth certificate in 1961?

    Answer the question.

  81. avatar
    Suranis May 23, 2011 at 5:34 pm #

    Marshal:
    Guys, there is almost nothing correct about the BC, face it.

    That’s nice. That opinion and $3 might get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

  82. avatar
    Scientist May 23, 2011 at 5:34 pm #

    Marshal: I believe the fake was inserted into the record about April 2….

    I believe I can fly
    I believe I can touch the sky
    I think about it every night and day
    Spread my wings and fly away
    I believe I can soar
    I see me running through that open door
    I believe I can fly
    I believe I can fly
    I believe I can fly

    Marshal: the doc is not half written, its all typed

    No, the medical information part, which was not released is almost certainly written, since it is entered by a nurse at the bedside.

    Answer my question-If the Federal Reserve confirms a $100 bill is real, under what scenario is it counterfeit?

  83. avatar
    Hawaiiborn May 23, 2011 at 5:34 pm #

    Marshal:
    African is not a race…If a Kenyan self identifies,they wouldlikely use their tribal designation, since they are so proud of their tribe.

    He would have followed what he would have been accustomed to reporting.

    From the 1962 Census report:

    Column 5. Race.- Write European, Arab, Somali, or African, etc. Asians write Indian or Pakistan.

  84. avatar
    Greg May 23, 2011 at 5:35 pm #

    Marshal: The Hawaii birth docs in 1961 had about eight racial designations, and African wasn’t one.

    That is incorrect. I gave you a link to the part of this website which discusses the question posed to the parents.

    There were THIRTEEN options available, and OTHER was one of them.

    Are you just making stuff up, now?

    Marshal: The reason a forger might have messed up and used African is easy

    Which forger? The COLB in 2008 said African.

    The Hawaiian DOH handed copies of the long form to Obama’s lawyer on Monday. Did those documents also say “African?” Are the documents in the Hawaiian files forged? If so, why are you prattling on about layers? Wouldn’t the White House simply make a copy of the forged document that the Hawaiian DOH handed them on Monday?

    If the documents that Hawaii handed Obama on Monday didn’t say African, then how did the officials at the DOH miss that when it was released on Wednesday? They didn’t just stay silent when the PDF was released, they link to the PDF from their own website! They have endorsed the document as the official stance of Hawaii!

    Marshal: The ad hominem attack on the youtube guy has been noted. This happens constantly, thank you very much.

    You were the one who called him an expert. Please support that assertion. Is he an expert? If so, how?

    As for the substance, refer back to my original post. There is nothing to debate about the PDF until it is placed into the context of reality. Why would a forgery of a PDF make sense, given the involvement of Hawaiian officials on Monday?

    Two Hawaiian officials swear that what they gave Obama was a true and accurate copy of what is in their files. If what is in their files is a forgery, then a PDF forgery is superfluous. If what is in their files is not a forgery, then the PDF forgery has to make sense with the State of Hawaii missing any forged bits of it, and then posting that same PDF forgery on their own website!

    Show me how a PDF forgery makes sense in the reality-based world, and then I’ll be ready to discuss the specifics of this person you have said was an expert.

  85. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 5:37 pm #

    hanging on to “fake” document story at this point is very irrational, it has become absurd. To them Obama has to be the OTHER, has to be, or their world view is wrong. Marshall says it’s a fake document, State of Hawaii says it’s authentic. Wow, who do I believe, I need more time. Looking at anomalies in a computer PDF file for proof the original is fake, who would a thunk that. It has reached the point where marshal needs to seek help, needs therapy.

  86. avatar
    Majority Will May 23, 2011 at 5:37 pm #

    Marshal: If a Kenyan self identifies, they would likely use their tribal designation, since they are so proud of their tribe.

    According to whom? Source?

  87. avatar
    Greg May 23, 2011 at 5:39 pm #

    Marshal: I believe the fake was inserted into the record about April 2

    So why create a new forgery sometime between April 25 and April 27?

    Your experts are talking about evidence contained within the PDF, but the DOH didn’t give Obama a PDF, they gave him a document which was turned into a PDF!

    Do you not understand that?

    So, they’ve got a perfectly good forgery, inserted into the record on or about April 2, and instead of making a simple PDF without layers, without any of the electronic artifacts you claim as evidence of forgery, they create a brand new forgery?

    Please, try to make some sense!

  88. avatar
    Suranis May 23, 2011 at 5:42 pm #

    Greg: So why create a new forgery sometime between April 25 and April 27?

    Your experts are talking about evidence contained within the PDF, but the DOH didn’t give Obama a PDF, they gave him a document which was turned into a PDF!

    Do you not understand that?

    So, they’ve got a perfectly good forgery, inserted into the record on or about April 2, and instead of making a simple PDF without layers, without any of the electronic artifacts you claim as evidence of forgery, they create a brand new forgery?

    Please, try to make some sense!

    That’s actually a pretty good point Greg. Why do birthers want to have both positions true when it actually hurts the case they are trying to make? Its almost like they want to have villainy on every single part of the process.

  89. avatar
    Majority Will May 23, 2011 at 5:43 pm #

    Marshal:
    Guys, there is almost nothing correct about the BC, face it.

    “I think only one person above tried to address my concern in a serious manner, and I will look to where I was directed.”

    So, you were being serious?

    “Face it” is your way of addressing a concern with a serious reply?

    Seriously?

  90. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 5:50 pm #

    he sadness of it all
    My neighbor took in their granddaughter as the birther father was too deep into birtherism. I talked to the birther as a favor to the teen, to no avail. Like Marshal, he spouts Corsi talking points. He was wiling to give up a relationship with his daughter for his birther myths. The girl asked him not to attend her graduation next month, she can no longer handle his delusions. There have been other posters with similar stories. When you see how deep marshal is into his myths you can see potential disaster looming. What will these people do when Obama is re-elected.What do they expect their delusions to accomplish?

  91. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 5:51 pm #

    The circular logic here is astounding…”its legit because Hawaii says so” haha

  92. avatar
    sactosintolerant May 23, 2011 at 5:51 pm #

    Just a quickie on the so-called non-curvature of the word “Male” on the birth certificate. I think that claim, which Marshal made, is the best test for whether a birther is even worth debating. The curvature is visible to the naked eye, and anyone who says they don’t see it is beyond help. They have literally closed their eyes to anything that debunks whatever any birther YouTuber has posted.

    There was a recent thread on Free Republic where a non-birther drew lines showing how the M in “Male” IS slanted and the birthers on there STILL refused to see it. Props to those of you who still try to engage these people, but they won’t hear it. It is an “obvious forgery” in their eyes, and they’ve found people willing to tell them what they want to believe. Heck, some of the birthers knew it was a forgery before they saw it. Good luck arguing with that!

  93. avatar
    dunstvangeet May 23, 2011 at 5:55 pm #

    Marshal:
    The circular logic here is astounding…”its legit because Hawaii says so” haha

    Ultimately, that is what it comes down to…

    Which is a whole lot better than what your side has, which is “It’s a forgery because a couple of annoymous yahoos who claim to be experts but don’t have the credentials to back it up say so.”

  94. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 5:57 pm #

    To richCares, the classmate and friend of Obama sr. Thank you for your character assassination fables, , and the way you totally side step real debate.

    You guys are the reason the birther movement grew- you are too quick to resort the put downs and name calling. and avoiding the issues….Obama is the ultimate birther though- he created this whole mess- he could have released this long ago, and he could have released a more credible forgery.

  95. avatar
    misha May 23, 2011 at 6:00 pm #

    Marshal: ….Obama is the ultimate birther though- he created this whole mess- he could have released this long ago, and he could have released a more credible forgery.

    He took this course of action to make people like you miserable. Mission accomplished – unlike Iraq.

  96. avatar
    Hawaiiborn May 23, 2011 at 6:00 pm #

    Marshal: Hawaiibo

    as has been told to you. Its not “Obama” says so. Its that the recognized director of the Hawaii State Department of Health says so.

    The one, who has authority of such records.

  97. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 6:00 pm #

    You people are naive and very nutty if you think a Hawaiian officials say so is the final word on this.

  98. avatar
    Greg May 23, 2011 at 6:00 pm #

    Marshal:
    The circular logic here is astounding…”its legit because Hawaii says so” haha

    No, it’s legit because a forgery doesn’t make sense based on the facts we know.

    That you cannot even attempt to place this forgery in a narrative that makes sense with reality isn’t a character assassination, it’s a flaw in your argument.

  99. avatar
    Hawaiiborn May 23, 2011 at 6:01 pm #

    Marshal:
    To richCares, the classmate and friend of Obama sr. Thank you for your character assassination fables,, and the way you totally side step real debate.

    You guys are the reasonthe birther movement grew- you are too quick to resort the put downs and name calling. and avoiding the issues….Obama is the ultimate birther though- he created this whole mess- he could have released this long ago, and he could have released a more credible forgery.

    Name calling? Hello, it was the birthers who called themselves birthers.

    and as for calling non-experts non -experts, that isn’t name calling

    calling known liars, liars that isn’t name calling

    calling lawyers who don’t know how to litigate, bad lawyers, that’s not name calling.

  100. avatar
    Greg May 23, 2011 at 6:03 pm #

    Marshal:
    You people are naive and very nuttyif you think a Hawaiian officials say so is the final word on this.

    Given that the number of birthers has plummeted, and every Republican has repudiated you guys, I think that we can safely say that these Hawaiian officials word is final.

    Given that the Hawaiian officials’ words fit with reality and your forgery notions don’t (as I’ve pointed out and you’ve pointedly refused to address) any rational person would see that their words are final, as well.

  101. avatar
    Hawaiiborn May 23, 2011 at 6:03 pm #

    Marshal:
    You people are naive and very nuttyif you think a Hawaiian officials say so is the final word on this.

    when I want to get an opinion of whether or not I have cancer and how to treat it, I wouldn’t go and see my dentist for his/her opinion.

    The director of the Hawaii State Department of Health is responsible for the accurate dissemination of information on certified forms of a birth records. She/he has the FINAL say on what is correct.

  102. avatar
    Greg May 23, 2011 at 6:04 pm #

    Marshal:
    You people are naive and very nuttyif you think a Hawaiian officials say so is the final word on this.

    Says the guy who complains about name-calling.

    Did you present any evidence that the forgery was done on April 2? Did you attempt to put any of your forgery notions into a coherent narrative?

    No. All you have a base accusations and name calling.

  103. avatar
    dunstvangeet May 23, 2011 at 6:04 pm #

    I also love the terminology of the “ad hominum” attack…

    First, he makes an appeal to authority argument. Then when we say prove that the guy you’re appealing to is actually an authority, he claims that it’s an ad hominum attack.

    Marshal, if your only argument is an appeal to authority, which you claim in previous posts, then your argument rests on the credentials of the supposed authority.

    It makes a whole lot more sense if your authority is an actual expert in Forensic Document Examination, rather than just some old guy standing on a side walk, yelling at the clouds. Prove to us that he’s the former, rather than the latter…

  104. avatar
    Hawaiiborn May 23, 2011 at 6:05 pm #

    notice how quickly Marshal becomes a troll

    I smell, smelly socks.

  105. avatar
    Tarrant May 23, 2011 at 6:09 pm #

    Marshal:
    You people are naive and very nuttyif you think a Hawaiian officials say so is the final word on this.

    The Constitution of the United States of America says that, indeed, the say-so of Hawaiian officials IS, in fact, the final word on this. Perhaps you are anti-Constitution, but I’m not willing to make such an accusation.

  106. avatar
    obsolete May 23, 2011 at 6:09 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: obsolete: So, has anyone confirmed Corsi’s claims of a Harvard Phd?

    For reasons of no interest here, I had occasion to want to read Jerome Corsi’s PhD thesis from Harvard, and I was able to obtain a microfilm copy directly from the Harvard Library, thereby confirming his degree.

    Were there any anomalies?

  107. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 6:10 pm #

    “notice how quickly Marshal becomes a troll”
    RIO returned is my guess
    he is either making stufff up or he dived deep into the rabbit hole
    How can any rational person accept what he claims
    it’s time to say good bye to marshall!

  108. avatar
    dunstvangeet May 23, 2011 at 6:12 pm #

    Marshal:
    You people are naive and very nuttyif you think a Hawaiian officials say so is the final word on this.

    Just wondering, Marshal. In a court of law, how do you think you’d authenticate it?

    Would you call the people that are actually responsible for the document, have handled millions (my estimation is currently about 1.5 million documents), and actually authenticates it?

    That guy says that it’s legitimate. There is no further “expert” that is needed on this, and definitely not someone who is an anonymous yahoo who doesn’t actually have the expertise to back up his claims.

  109. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 6:14 pm #

    You guys need to wake up and smell the corruption. All you guys do is offer insults, you people remind me of high school. This irrational, near religious faith in a Hawaiian official is not even funny anymore. You guys don’t know much about how politics works, do you?

  110. avatar
    Tarrant May 23, 2011 at 6:14 pm #

    richCares:
    “notice how quickly Marshal becomes a troll”
    RIO returned is my guess
    he is either making stufff up or he dived deep into the rabbit hole
    How can any rational personaccept what he claims
    it’s time to say good bye to marshall!

    I started to believe a few posts ago that Marshal is simply a sockpuppet for RIO. He started his posting the same way – trying to act as a curious person, but devolved into cutting and pasting birther talking points faster than RIO did.

    No evidence, of course, but it follows the same posting evolution.

  111. avatar
    JoZeppy May 23, 2011 at 6:17 pm #

    Marshal: Most people here are saying that the doc is legit , because the people associated with the doc say so….this is absurd.

    No, what is absurd is whining about a document that is good enough to establish the facts of the President’s birth in any court of law in the US based on the rantings of anonomous youtube videos.

  112. avatar
    dunstvangeet May 23, 2011 at 6:18 pm #

    DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!

  113. avatar
    Tarrant May 23, 2011 at 6:19 pm #

    Marshal:
    You guys need to wake up and smell the corruption.All you guys do is offer insults, you people remind me of high school. This irrational,near religious faith in a Hawaiian official is not even funny anymore. You guys don’t know much about how politics works, do you?

    So let’s stop beating around the bush. Essentially, if you do not take the word of officials from Hawaii, then your accusation now, a la RIO, is that the officials of the state of Hawaii – both Republican and Democratic administrations, as well as non-partisan officers like Onaka – are committing felonies of the highest order.

    That got RIO banned. I see no reason why it shouldn’t do the same for you.

  114. avatar
    Scientist May 23, 2011 at 6:19 pm #

    Marshal: …”its legit because Hawaii says so”

    Well, yesssss. Just like a $100 bill is worth $100 if the Federal Reserve says so.

  115. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 6:20 pm #

    “You guys don’t know much about how politics works, do you?”
    won the election!
    will win the next one!
    so I guess you are not right!

  116. avatar
    Suranis May 23, 2011 at 6:20 pm #

    I don’t believe I have given a single “ad nominem” attack or insult to Marshal. I even welcomed him to the board. However he has not addressed a single post I made.

    I’m pretty disappointed…

  117. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 6:21 pm #

    If Obama were serious about putting this to rest, he would not have allowed just a handful of sympathetic associates see the original.

    He would have offered the copy and or original up for an independent analysis. Instead, he turned to the carnival barkers in his mostly allied media to embrace the fake- note how they embraced it instantly, there was no”hey wait, lets examine this thing and report back later….nope.

    The people who accept the BC so naively are of the same ilk who swallowed Bushs WMD claims….gullible media entranced zombies.

  118. avatar
    Scientist May 23, 2011 at 6:22 pm #

    Marshal: This irrational, near religious faith in a Hawaiian official is

    I’m not depending on Hawaiian officials. i know nothing about documents.

    However i was PERSONALLY present when Barack Obama was born in Hawaii. I PERSONALLY slapped his behind. and started him breathing.

    What do you say to that my friend???

  119. avatar
    Hawaiiborn May 23, 2011 at 6:23 pm #

    Marshal:
    You guys need to wake up and smell the corruption.All you guys do is offer insults, you people remind me of high school. This irrational,near religious faith in a Hawaiian official is not even funny anymore. You guys don’t know much about how politics works, do you?

    Its apparent that you don’t know what Prima Facie evidence means. this isn’t politics. this is fact based evidence, that would stand up in a court of law.

    troll is obvious.

    name calling. Not a single reply to you when you started on your hellbent “its fake” tirade from comment 60+, has anyone called anyone names.

  120. avatar
    Tarrant May 23, 2011 at 6:25 pm #

    Marshal:
    IfObama were serious about putting this to rest, he would not have allowed just a handful of sympathetic associates see the original.

    He would have offered the copy and or original up for an independent analysis. Instead, he turned to the carnival barkers in his mostly allied media to embrace the fake- note how they embraced it instantly, there was no”hey wait, lets examine this thing and report back later….nope.

    The people who accept the BC so naively are of the same ilk who swallowed Bushs WMD claims….gullible media entranced zombies.

    Official documents do not need “independent verification”. When you show your driver’s license the police officer cannot say “I can’t accept this it has to go to a 3rd party even though the state says it is yours and they issued it.”

    If the state of Hawaii says they issued it and that it is valid, every court in the nation will accept it even if every document expert you could find said it wasn’t so, because the Constitution requires they do so.

  121. avatar
    JoZeppy May 23, 2011 at 6:25 pm #

    Marshal: I believe the fake was inserted into the record about April 2…. This fake is what we see now , and the WH and their partisan allies in Hawaiian records know its fake. They offered contradictory info- the doc is not half written, its all typed, and the records custodians are wrong but how could that be, hmm?

    What you believe is utterly irrelevant. You have no proof at all. You have had two Hawaiian administrations, one Republican, one Democrat, that have consistently verified the existence of the document. The best you have is parsing words to literalism like the “half written” on a document that includes both handwriting, and typing. Get some evidence to support your “beliefs.”

  122. avatar
    Hawaiiborn May 23, 2011 at 6:25 pm #

    Marshal:
    IfObama were serious about putting this to rest, he would not have allowed just a handful of sympathetic associates see the original.

    He did. Several reporters were at the White House, got to see the documents in person, that was provided to him via the Hawaii State Department of Health.

    Several have taken pictures.

    and seeing that you are exactly the type of person it would not satisfy, he is no more obligated to do anything than what he had done so far (which was already too much).

  123. avatar
    dunstvangeet May 23, 2011 at 6:27 pm #

    He’s done offering anything useful, any coherent arguments.

    His only argument is that there’s a conspiracy dating back 50 years that is somehow powerful enough to incorporate the entire State of Hawaii government (including Republicans who supported Barack Obama’s rival for the Presidency), the U.S. Government, and about 2,000 other people…

    And yet incompetent enough that they’d leave these trails for anonymous yahoos with no actual expertise to find what they think is proof that this is fake.

  124. avatar
    JoZeppy May 23, 2011 at 6:28 pm #

    Marshal: You people are naive and very nutty if you think a Hawaiian officials say so is the final word on this.

    Actually, they are. You see, that’s how these documents work. Unless you have actual evidence (and youtube doesn’t count) as to why the document should not be relied on, the Hawaiian officials are the final word on it. That is neither naive nor nutty. That is how the law works in this country.

  125. avatar
    dunstvangeet May 23, 2011 at 6:29 pm #

    Again, I say: DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!

  126. avatar
    BatGuano May 23, 2011 at 6:31 pm #

    Marshal:
    The Hawaii birth docs in 1961 had about eight racial designations,….

    please list these eight and your source. thank you.

  127. avatar
    JoZeppy May 23, 2011 at 6:33 pm #

    Marshal: You guys need to wake up and smell the corruption. All you guys do is offer insults, you people remind me of high school. This irrational, near religious faith in a Hawaiian official is not even funny anymore. You guys don’t know much about how politics works, do you?

    Perhaps if you has some evidence of corruption?
    And you don’t know about how evidence works, do you?

    As for someone whining about insults, I can’t say I see very many of yours that aren’t insult laden.

  128. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 6:33 pm #

    not to change the topic, but did anyone catch the reception of Obama in Ireland. What a fantastic reception, thousands and thousands of people cheering USA and Obama while waving American flags. What an impressive display it was. One comment they made in introducing Obama was “….he just doesn’t talk the American dream, he is the American dream”, the cheers on that were deafening. Strange, not a single person yelled “usurper”.

  129. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP May 23, 2011 at 6:35 pm #

    LMAO. Back to the old “if Obama wanted to put this to rest” crap. Just moving the goalposts again.

  130. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP May 23, 2011 at 6:38 pm #

    richCares:
    not to change the topic, but did anyone catch the reception of Obama in Ireland. What a fantastic reception, thousands and thousands of people cheering USA and Obama while waving American flags. What an impressive display it was. One comment they made in introducing Obama was “….he just doesn’t talk the American dream, he is the American dream”, the cheers on that were deafening. Strange, not a single person yelled “usurper”.

    I did. It was great. But as I pointed out earlier, the PM said that President Obama had “come home,” and the president said minutes later that he had “come home to Ireland.” This is going to drive the birthers batty for another year or two

  131. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 6:41 pm #

    “come home to Ireland.”
    Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
    you owe me a keyboard!

  132. avatar
    obsolete May 23, 2011 at 6:46 pm #

    If I had a $100 bill that I suspected was phony, and visited my local Secret Service branch, and they:
    1. Confirmed to me it was genuine
    2. Issued a certified letter from the head of the Secret Service, asserting its authenticity
    3. Issued a second certified letter from the Secretary of the Treasury asserting its authenticity
    4. Issued a letter documenting its printing date, and documented the chain of custody from treasury printing press to Federal Reserve in NYC to my local bank, where it was handed to me

    I would feel pretty confident that I could spend that bill and not worry about being arrested for counterfeiting it.

    Marshal- face it. You have no idea how evidence works in either a court setting or by law. There is no reputable forensics expert who would even take on the job of forensically examining the LFBC after reading Hawaii’s accompanying letters.

    There is no higher authority on what is or isn’t a legit Hawaiian birth certificate than the Hawaiian DOH, and they have gone to extraordinary lengths to vouch for its authenticity.

    The ONLY argument that you have left is, is that they are “in on it”. Everybody is “in on it”.
    The greatest, lengthiest, and most vast & far reaching conspiracy known to man.

    Good luck convincing a majority of voters with that. The majority of voters are not clinically insane and paranoid.

  133. avatar
    Suranis May 23, 2011 at 6:48 pm #

    richCares:
    not to change the topic, but did anyone catch the reception of Obama in Ireland. What a fantastic reception, thousands and thousands of people cheering USA and Obama while waving American flags. What an impressive display it was. One comment they made in introducing Obama was “….he just doesn’t talk the American dream, he is the American dream”, the cheers on that were deafening. Strange, not a single person yelled “usurper”.

    I didn’t actually catch it, (was working all day) but I’ve been hearing reports all day and I have to say I was surprised at the extent of the welcome given to the guy. My impression was that Obama was not terribly popular in Ireland but I seem to have been proven wrong (again).

    It is possible though that He benefited from the afterglow of the EXTREAMLY successful 4 day visit by the British Queen that ended Saturday.

  134. avatar
    obsolete May 23, 2011 at 6:48 pm #

    Marshal: and now you guys dont understand being provoked…

    Are you admitting to being a troll here for the sole purpose of annoying the grown-ups?

  135. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 6:50 pm #

    You guys are just your own echo chamber…must be nice. I cant respond to everyone, there are too many here.

    There is almost nothing right about the BC, how hard is that for you to understand……? Send me some YT showing how its A OK, and then I will be able to swamp you. is that the fear? I sent one and no one dissected it, they just made fun of the dudes other interests.

    And yes two or yes, even three officials in Hawaii can conspire, thank you. To think otherwise is folly. Also- when the Fed issues notes as part of the backdoor bailouts, it is a form of counterfeit money. ($9 plus trillion, thank you Mr O) thank God for sen, Bernie Sanders..

    The argument that this is a decades long conspiracy for political gain is one of the most ridiculous dem pushed canards Ive ever run into. NO birther I ever heard of ever thought that.

  136. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 6:53 pm #

    So here on this site we have TWO people who either knew Obama Sr. or Jr. ?

  137. avatar
    Hawaiiborn May 23, 2011 at 6:54 pm #

    Marshal:
    You guys are just your own echo chamber…must be nice.I cant respond to everyone, there are too many here.

    excuses excuses.

    There is almost nothing right about the BC, how hard is that for you to understand……?

    How hard is it for you to understand that the State of Hawaii has authenticated the copies that Obama has provided? that means they do not find anything wrong with it.

    Send me some YT showing how its A OK, and then I will be able to swamp you.is that the fear? I sent one and no one dissected it, they just made fun of the dudes other interests.

    Majority of documenation isn’t done by YouTube. Its done by researched reports and published. In the case of evidence, that report is submitted to a court of law.

    And yes two or yes, even three officials in Hawaii can conspire, thank you.To think otherwise is folly.

    Provide evidence. Otherwise your assertions are folly.

    Also- when the Fed issues notes as part of the backdoor bailouts, it is a form of counterfeit money.($9 plus trillion, thank you Mr O) thank God for sen, Bernie Sanders..

    Irrelevant.

    The argument that this is a decades long conspiracy for political gain is one of the most ridiculous dem pushed canards Ive ever run into.NO birther I ever heard of ever thought that.

  138. avatar
    Hawaiiborn May 23, 2011 at 6:54 pm #

    Marshal:
    You guys are provoking ME

    asking for evidence is provoking you? wow, if you were ever in a court case, and the Prosecutor wants your side of the story, are you going to say that he is provoking you?

  139. avatar
    Hawaiiborn May 23, 2011 at 6:55 pm #

    Marshal:
    So here on this site we have TWO people who either knew Obama Sr. or Jr. ?

    Who has claimed this?

  140. avatar
    Rickey May 23, 2011 at 6:58 pm #

    First Marshal says that the long-form BC doesn’t hold up to “professional scrutiny” and then he claims “The fact remains that the huge majority of forensic experts- I mean people who work with documents and printing for a living- they say the BC is a forgery, and not even a very good one.”

    Ever since he posted his first two notes he has pointedly refused to support his initial contentions.

    To substantiate the claim that “the huge majority of forensic experts” say the birth certificate is a forgery, a real debater would have to do the following:

    1. Define “professional scrutiny” and “forensic experts.” People who merely work with documents and printing for a living are not forensic experts.

    2. Provide proof regarding how many forensic experts have examined the birth certificate and then provide a tally of how many say it is a forgery and how many say it is legitimate.

    How many of Marshal’s “forensic experts” are members of the American Board of Forensic Document Examiners? My guess is none. Here are the requirements for certification:

    http://www.abfde.org/htdocs/certification/QualificationsandRequirementsforCerts.pdf

    If Marshal bothers to read the requirements, he will see that merely “working with documents and printing” doesn’t come close to cutting it.

    Ironically, Sandra Lines is a member of ABFDE. Unfortunately for Marshal, she has acknowledged that it is impossible to ascertain the authenticity of a document by analyzing an image of it.

  141. avatar
    Scientist May 23, 2011 at 7:00 pm #

    Marshal: So here on this site we have TWO people who either knew Obama Sr. or Jr. ?

    Yes, and our PERSONAL testimony beats anything you have…..

    Marshal: Also- when the Fed issues notes as part of the backdoor bailouts, it is a form of counterfeit money.

    Fine, please take your life savings out of the bank and covert them to cash and send it all to me. After all, you believe the banknotes are counterfeit so you won’t be llosing anything, right?

  142. avatar
    JoZeppy May 23, 2011 at 7:03 pm #

    Marshal: There is almost nothing right about the BC, how hard is that for you to understand……?

    According to whom? It goes back to that evidence thing, that you continue to have nothing of. How hard is that to understand. If you make an accusation, you have to support it.

    Marshal: Send me some YT showing how its A OK, and then I will be able to swamp you. is that the fear? I sent one and no one dissected it, they just made fun of the dudes other interests.

    You do understand that anyone can stick something on YouTube? YouTube is evidence of nothing. How about you come back with something called admissable evidence?

    Marshal: And yes two or yes, even three officials in Hawaii can conspire, thank you. To think otherwise is folly.

    That’s nice. Do you have any evidence of a conspiracy? That would be a big NO, woudln’t it. What is within the abstract realm of possibility doesn’t really matter. It is what you actually have evidence of.

    Marshal: Also- when the Fed issues notes as part of the backdoor bailouts, it is a form of counterfeit money. ($9 plus trillion, thank you Mr O) thank God for sen, Bernie Sanders..

    Besides being irrelevant….says who, You?

    Marshal: The argument that this is a decades long conspiracy for political gain is one of the most ridiculous dem pushed canards Ive ever run into. NO birther I ever heard of ever thought that.

    Actually, every birther argument is pretty ridiculous…but when you take everything into consideration, that is what you are claiming. If you are claiming the birth certificate is fake, then everything from his birth (including the annoucements, people claiming to have seen him/his parents, etc), up until now, is a long conspiracy, one way or the other. How else do you explain it. But at least you admit it is ridiculous.

  143. avatar
    sfjeff May 23, 2011 at 7:05 pm #

    Marshal: and now you guys dont understand being provoked…

    I certainly don’t understand what you are attempting to do.

    You said we didn’t have serious debate, and yet you haven’t offered any.

    You have made unsupported statements and accusations- is that what you call debate?

    You still haven’t name any of the ‘majority of experts’ you claimed

    You still haven’t provided any evidence of corruption in Hawaii.

    When you want a serious debate, make a claim and back it up.

  144. avatar
    obsolete May 23, 2011 at 7:06 pm #

    Marshal: And yes two or yes, even three officials in Hawaii can conspire, thank you. To think otherwise is folly.

    Your conspiracy would require hundreds to be “in on it”, over several decades and administrations, including Republicans in Hawaii who worked for John McCain’s campaign. It becomes a staggering number, in the tens of thousands, who must be “in on it” on a Federal and State level as the conspiracy reaches into every branch of Government.

    It.Is.Ridiculous.

    It is pointless to examine the photocopy of the birth certificate (which is really all a scan is). To determine a fake, you would have to examine the paper itself, which has already been verified authentic by the State of Hawaii.

    If you insist on wasting your time by picking apart a photocopy, this is a good primer that addresses many issues birthers have brought up:
    The Fogbow: Birthers Debunked :: Adobe Special Report
    http://www.thefogbow.com/special-reports/adobe-special-report/

    Here is another place of interest:
    Expert: No Doubt Obama’s Birth Certificate Is Legit
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/29/expert-says-obamas-birth-certificate-legit/?test=latestnews

    Take a deep breath, and pick, oh, lets say, THREE items that are birther claims about Obama that you believe and want debunked.

    Then we get to ask you a question or two…

  145. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 7:08 pm #

    Guys, very few experts thinks that the BC is genuine Can anybody send me some info on how its for real? Its 144 posts ;later and I got just two so far, and they weren’t very good

  146. avatar
    JoZeppy May 23, 2011 at 7:10 pm #

    Marshal: Guys, very few experts thinks that the BC is genuine Can anybody send me some info on how its for real? Its 144 posts ;later and I got just two so far, and they weren’t very good

    name one expert that thinks it isn’t genuine. ONE qualified expert.

  147. avatar
    Suranis May 23, 2011 at 7:11 pm #

    Marshal: Send me some YT showing how its A OK, and then I will be able to swamp you. is that the fear? I sent one and no one dissected it, they just made fun of the dudes other interests.

    I had a look at it. The guy spent a whole load of time talking about the fact that the BC pdf was altered (which everyone knows) but not a moment showing that the information was deliberately altered by human hands, rather than a computer program. And he used Adobe Illustrator, which is a fabulous program for vector graphics and designing illustrations, but useless for examining digital photographic information.

    Fact is the layers were pulled out of the background by the program and optomised, which is why there are the white spaces behind the letters that were thickened and blackened.

    There, another opinion by another someone that has used Illustrator and Photoshop in Graphic Design.

  148. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 7:11 pm #

    “knew Obama Sr”
    in the summer session of 1961 I met an African student that had a white wife that had just given birth, I don’t remember any names, that was a long time ago, but as I think about it , it must have been Obama. My niece (who was 9 at the time) said “don’t you remember, his wife had a boys name”)
    I can’t swear that’s who it was, but it does seem likely.
    .
    One name I remember from college is “John Fahey” guitarist, who was my room mate.
    He also met who I think was Obama Sr. He played great guitar (bottle neck blues) yet his biography doesn’t mention University of Hawaii, he was there only one semester. I tried contacting him recently but found he past away.
    .
    I remember few others plus my bestman (wedding)

  149. avatar
    obsolete May 23, 2011 at 7:18 pm #

    Speaking of crazy people (the thread’s title), here is a comment from FreeRepublic as linked above:

    “I bought the book, TXF.

    What is amazing is how much of it I already knew, some as long ago as April, 2008.

    The difference is Mr.Corsi has documentation, while all mine disappeared when a hacker (actually referred by other computer nerds as a cracker’) wiped my hard drives.

    Note: my ethical hacking nephew followed the cracker’s’ trail, and it led to a Senate office building in Washington, D.C. My computer was consequently invaded twice more, once from Chicago, IL, and again from Washington, D.C.”
    by SatinDoll (NOT FOREIGN NATIONALS AS OUR PRESIDENT)

    This is a common paranoid birther belief- that Obama’s evil workers not only scrubbed the entire internet of damaging items, but that many people had saved damaging items about Obama (such as his supposed admission of being foreign-born in a debate with Alan Keyes) onto their computer and hard drives, only to have them wiped by his hackers.

    But yet their brilliant computer forgery falls apart because the word “THE” is misspelled.
    So close, and yet so far.

  150. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 7:26 pm #

    I wrote a computer program that generated pages of parts data directly from a dBase database to create pdf parts liting files for customers to print. So I have many years experience with Acrobat, I also did extensive consultng on Acrobat. All the errors marshall sees are BS. Again, you cannot verify a document as being real or forged from a pdf scan. Nobody, no how, no way, can do that. That’s what the birher ex-perts did. (Did I type that slow enough for him)

  151. avatar
    Bob May 23, 2011 at 7:28 pm #

    I’m sure there are some Birthers that have screwed up personal or professional relationships but I’d bet that 99.9% of them are too ashamed too bring up their weird addiction in their real lives.

  152. avatar
    Thrifty May 23, 2011 at 7:31 pm #

    Marshal: If Obama were serious about putting this to rest, he would not have allowed just a handful of sympathetic associates see the original.

    You mean like a Republican governor who was campaigning for his opponent in the election?

  153. avatar
    El Diablo Negro May 23, 2011 at 7:32 pm #

    obsolete: Are you admitting to being a troll here for the sole purpose of annoying the grown-ups?

    Sounds like an admission of guilt to me.

  154. avatar
    Scientist May 23, 2011 at 7:41 pm #

    Marshal: Guys, very few experts thinks that the BC is genuine

    i do. I have a PhD from a well-known university.

    Marshal: Can anybody send me some info on how its for real?

    It’s 100% real. Here is what is correct on it::

    The child’s name
    The child’s gender
    The date of biirth
    The time of birth
    The place of birth
    The parents’ names
    that the birth was not a multiple
    The mother’s address
    That the mother’s address was not a farm
    That the mother’s address was within the city limits
    The mother’s age
    The parents’ places of birth
    The parent’s occupations
    The doctor’s name
    The parent’s races (including African whether you like it or not, that’s what he was)

    In fact everything on it is correct, with the possiible exception of the father’s age, which he may have mis-stated.

    So, whatever you may think of the visuals of the document, the information on it is correct, which is what matters.

  155. avatar
    Thrifty May 23, 2011 at 7:46 pm #

    Ugh. Don’t feed the trolls sounds like a good axiom for today.

  156. avatar
    J. Edward Tremlett May 23, 2011 at 7:52 pm #

    speaking of corsi’s book

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/23553441@N04/5747046413/

  157. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 8:08 pm #

    Wow, the deluded slink off….these people actually think a President isnt part of a criminal racket, that he doesn’t lie and steal and plunder and murder…. this stuff is just politics 101, if our leaders lips are moving they are lying, grow up. stop believing the fairy tales

    No one here even laid a glove on me

  158. avatar
    Majority Will May 23, 2011 at 8:09 pm #

    Thrifty:
    Ugh.Don’t feed the trolls sounds like a good axiom for today.

    Agreed.

  159. avatar
    Majority Will May 23, 2011 at 8:17 pm #

    Marshal:
    You guys are provoking ME

    Would you like some cheese with that whine?

  160. avatar
    sfjeff May 23, 2011 at 8:18 pm #

    Marshal: Wow, the deluded slink off….these people actually think a President isnt part of a criminal racket, that he doesn’t lie and steal and plunder and murder…. this stuff is just politics 101, if our leaders lips are moving they are lying, grow up. stop believing the fairy tales No one here even laid a glove on me

    Seriously- I don’t think anyone wants to handle you with gloves or without.

    But since you started off accusing us of not being willing to debate, and so far you have refused to engage in any debate, just do us all a favor- declare yourself the winner and go back to Birther boards where you can all sit in a circle and agree with each other about how Barack is not the President.

  161. avatar
    Laura May 23, 2011 at 8:21 pm #

    Whatever !!!!!

  162. avatar
    Laura May 23, 2011 at 8:22 pm #

    Opps, should have been to Marshal ….

    Whatever

  163. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 8:24 pm #

    I looked over this site and never saw any reference the research of Wayne Madsen, or the unusual claims of Larry Sinclair. These omissions are strange, like in the Sherlock Holmes story about not hearing the dog barking at night….if im wrong, and this site deals with these two, then I apologize.

  164. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP May 23, 2011 at 8:28 pm #

    Marshal:
    Wow, the deluded slink off….these people actually think a President isnt part of a criminal racket, that he doesn’t lie and steal and plunder and murder…. this stuff is just politics 101, if our leaders lips are moving they are lying, grow up.stop believing the fairy tales

    No one here even laid a glove on me

    That president left office about two and a half years ago

  165. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 8:29 pm #

    Whatever!

  166. avatar
    dunstvangeet May 23, 2011 at 8:30 pm #

    dunstvangeet: TROLL

    I stand by my statement…

  167. avatar
    dunstvangeet May 23, 2011 at 8:31 pm #

    Do not feed them, I should say…

  168. avatar
    Greg May 23, 2011 at 8:34 pm #

    Yeah, no one laid a glove on you. Sure. Where are those “experts?” And still waiting for a story of forgery that makes even a lick of sense. Apparently, in your world, the White House forged an already forged document.

    But, yeah, no gloves on you. Keep believing that.

  169. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 8:36 pm #

    Note that not once here did I ever say Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii- its possible. But the BC is messed up.

  170. avatar
    dunstvangeet May 23, 2011 at 8:37 pm #

    Do not Feed the Trolls…

  171. avatar
    Majority Will May 23, 2011 at 8:37 pm #

    Whatever.

  172. avatar
    Thrifty May 23, 2011 at 8:38 pm #

    Marshal:
    Ive heard this several times today, but what, in you guys and your opinions, is a troll? (srsly- dont just say “you”).

    Someone who posts to an Internet forum with the purpose of provoking people and stirring up trouble.

    Someone who comes to a blog dedicated to debunking birtherism, and then makes repeated assertions without backing them up, is at best arguing in bad faith and at worst a troll. Neither is worth attempting to communicate with.

  173. avatar
    Thrifty May 23, 2011 at 8:40 pm #

    Okay my apologies for feeding the troll and not standing by my earlier pledge.

    *promptly zips lip*

  174. avatar
    Tarrant May 23, 2011 at 8:43 pm #

    Me as well. There’s no point.

  175. avatar
    misha May 23, 2011 at 8:45 pm #

    Marshal: Ive heard this several times today, but what, in you guys and your opinions, is a troll?

    I’ve read some of your arguments, and you have some good points. I did an extensive ‘net search, and I think I found a Kenya BC for Obama. Check it out.

  176. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 8:49 pm #

    Well, I dont exactly agree with that troll stuff…I’m more like a polemicist. I thew out the arguments that no one could refute- we all watched the videos, about 20 tore apart the BC and about 2 supported it. The dearth of supportive videos is an indication that there isnt much there to support. (prima facia) ? ha.

  177. avatar
    El Diablo Negro May 23, 2011 at 8:49 pm #

    mmhmmh…..troll food.

  178. avatar
    El Diablo Negro May 23, 2011 at 8:51 pm #

    Marshal:
    Well, I dont exactly agree with that troll stuff…I’m more like a polemicist. I thew out the arguments that no one could refute- we all watched the videos, about 20 tore apart the BC and about 2 supported it. The dearth of supportive videos is an indication that there isnt much there to support.(prima facia) ? ha.

    It’s because the truth does have to be repeated over, and over, and over, and over……

  179. avatar
    Suranis May 23, 2011 at 9:06 pm #

    You know, the troll tried to suck us into a stupid political argument and everyone rightly gave him the finger, but I saw this line on another forum and its such a good line I have to use it, as it sums up pretty much everything anyone could say really

    Things the GOP are good at:
    1. Starting wars
    2. Being the party of fiscal responsibility

    Things the GOP are bad at:
    1. Fighting wars
    2. Being fiscally responsible

    Stupid troll ignore mode active.

  180. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 9:23 pm #

    Well, I always hated George Bush, and his father. and Newt sucks just as bad. The reason Bush and Cheney will NEVER go to jail, where they belong? Because Obama and Holder are the best legal shields around. Its childish to think that one party is good and one bad- grow up. We have continuity of agenda, folks, face it.

    All the evidence ive seen shows kerning on the BC, an impossibility with old typewriters. And Ive seen kerning examples from many different sources, so dont tell me that I saw a bad one, and that kerning doesn’t exist on the BC, or it occurred due to the method used to present the doc to us. Blow it up ,and kerning is there, when it shouldn’t be.

  181. avatar
    El Diablo Negro May 23, 2011 at 9:30 pm #

    I don’t have fealty to any party (independent). But I will call out nonsense when I see it. Do you even know what kerning is? Have you worked with fonts & kerning? or are you just repeating what others have said. Nit-picking at its best.

  182. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 9:40 pm #

    El diablo, can you offer something incisive or not? SHOW us that there is no kerning, direct me to the spot. Everywhere else ive been screams Kerning kerning kerning, no one says NO kerning…..you be the first, go head Dont just mock the use of the word.

    ok, lights out for me, goodnight gotta go

  183. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) May 23, 2011 at 9:43 pm #

    Marshal:
    El diablo, can you offer something incisive or not?SHOW us that there is no kerning, direct me to the spot. Everywhere else ive been screams Kerning kerning kerning, no one says NO kerning…..you be the first, go headDont just mock the use of the word.

    ok, lights out for me, goodnight gotta go

    I think you mean decisive. You keep using that word kerning. I don’t think that word means what you think it does

  184. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP May 23, 2011 at 9:43 pm #

    Marshal:
    Well, I always hated George Bush, and his father. and Newt sucks just as bad.The reason Bush and Cheney will NEVER go to jail, where they belong? Because Obama and Holder are the best legal shields around.Its childish to think that one party is good and one bad- grow up. We have continuity of agenda, folks, face it.

    Well, maybe you should alert the conservatives to the crooks they are voting into office because they think that their presidents are God’s gifts to humans when they are in office, and I don’t see a whole lot of independents or anyone else telling them how lousy their presidents are.

    I agree with you, they all protect each other regardless of party, and the reasons for that transcend any president or party. It’s the money that does that

  185. avatar
    Joey May 23, 2011 at 9:47 pm #

    Marshal:
    Well, I always hated George Bush, and his father. and Newt sucks just as bad.The reason Bush and Cheney will NEVER go to jail, where they belong? Because Obama and Holder are the best legal shields around.Its childish to think that one party is good and one bad- grow up. We have continuity of agenda, folks, face it.

    All the evidence ive seen shows kerning on the BC, an impossibility with old typewriters. And Ive seenkerning examples from many different sources, so dont tell me that I saw a bad one, and that kerning doesn’t exist on the BC, or it occurred due to the method used to present the doc to us. Blow it up ,and kerning is there, when it shouldn’t be.

    You DO realize that internet scanned copies of documents are legally irrelevant, don’t you?
    If any court of law or any congressional committee ever needed to subpoena the President’s birth records, they wouldn’t be subpoenaeing scanned images of the documents obtained off the internet.
    The previous Republican Administration of Governor Linda Lingle verified Barack Obama’s birth records as authentic and the current Democratic Administration of Governor Neil Abercrombie re-verified the records.
    Under Article IV, Section 1 of the Constitution of the United States, the “Full Faith and Credit Clause,” those verifications by the state of Hawaii are all that will ever be needed.
    U.S. Constitution – Article 4 Section 1

    ——————————————————————————–

    Article 4 – The States
    Section 1 – Each State to Honor all Others

    Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

  186. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny May 23, 2011 at 9:50 pm #

    obsolete: This is a common paranoid birther belief- that Obama’s evil workers not only scrubbed the entire internet of damaging items, but that many people had saved damaging items about Obama (such as his supposed admission of being foreign-born in a debate with Alan Keyes) onto their computer and hard drives, only to have them wiped by his hackers.

    Considering how long Orly’s website has been spreading obfuscated zombying links, pests and exploits (many connected with the Russian Business Network now operating from Kazakhstan) there is of course reason to believe that people who have birfer files on their computer also are at a very high risk of of seeing their hard drives wiped. But many more have computers handicapped and slowed down by being RBN zombie machines.

    Occam’s razor says that these people visited Orly Taitz’ website. She has just got rid of another pest.

  187. avatar
    gorefan May 23, 2011 at 9:54 pm #

    Marshal: All the evidence ive seen shows kerning on the BC,

    Here is a site that shows kerning is possible with a typewriter and this guy is a well known birther.

    http://paraleaglenm.wordpress.com/2011/05/10/debunking-birth-certificate-forgery-claims/

  188. avatar
    Reality Check May 23, 2011 at 9:55 pm #

    Marshal, if you are referring to the uneven spacing or even overlapping of letters that has been explained as a function of mechanical typewriters and the response of the carriage to different stroke rhythms. It is interesting that you would use the number of YouTube videos as some sort of measure of accuracy of the claims. A plausible explanation is the motivation of the amateur sleuths to please a willing and gullible audience. Legitimate document forensic experts understand the folly of the doubters.

    I have a bitter dose of reality medicine for Birthers everywhere: You can post on blogs, make YouTube videos, lie, buy hundreds of copies of Jerry Corsi’s piece of crap book, swear at the media, write your Congress person, and stamp your feet but as long as the State of Hawaii vouches for the authenticity of both documents you are screwed. You will never see the inside of a courtroom, Congressional hearing room, or be taken seriously by the legitimate media.

  189. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 9:55 pm #

    No, I meant incisive. Decisive could work too, both might have worked in my missive, but I meant I wanted something sharp and clear, to the point…. not necessarily the final word, though…

    You guys give WAAYYYYYY too much credence to what elected politicians – and their appointees- say on this issue.

  190. avatar
    Greg May 23, 2011 at 9:56 pm #

    If you could define kerning and why it’s used you’d know that it is not kerning you’re seeing on the certificate. Kerning doesn’t give you differing spaces between letters.

  191. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 9:57 pm #

    This state of Hawaii stuff is boring. You are really just talking about three people, right?

  192. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 10:05 pm #

    So by extension, the US govt is always right, they never fool anyone, their say so in court is the final word too, they never try to fool anyone about anything either? If Hawaii is bulletproof, then the Feds must be too? Or are the Hawaiians immune from being infected with political chicanery? haha

  193. avatar
    Greg May 23, 2011 at 10:05 pm #

    It’s not about the number of people, it’s about the number of forgeries. According to you, a forgery was put in the files on April 2. But, then, the PDF shows signs of forgery, too, according to your “experts.” Doesn’t fit with reality.

    And, yes, reality is boring. There’re significantly fewer conspiracies in real life.

  194. avatar
    Greg May 23, 2011 at 10:07 pm #

    Since some people have killed people, you must be a murderer. I’m totally reporting you to the police.

  195. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 10:07 pm #

    Gred I never said Kerning was about spaces between letters, that is way way off

  196. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 10:10 pm #

    Kerning is the total even alignment of letters horizontally along the base of the word, more or less as created via certain processes.

  197. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 10:10 pm #

    Greg & Reality Check
    the proper response is “Whatver” (you too gorefan)
    OK, got it?
    .
    he won the argument, Obama will be removed by Monday. So please, no answer other than “Whatever” (Doc is right on this)

  198. avatar
    El Diablo Negro May 23, 2011 at 10:13 pm #

    Marshal:
    El diablo, can you offer something incisive or not?SHOW us that there is no kerning, direct me to the spot. Everywhere else ive been screams Kerning kerning kerning, no one says NO kerning…..you be the first, go headDont just mock the use of the word.

    ok, lights out for me, goodnight gotta go

    What? YOU brought up kerning. Did YOU do the research? show me. You make the claim, back it up!

  199. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 10:13 pm #

    Whatever

  200. avatar
    Greg May 23, 2011 at 10:15 pm #

    Marshal:
    Kerning is the total even alignment of letters horizontally along the base of the word, more or less as created via certain processes.

    Nope. Not true. Kerning is about the white space between letters.

  201. avatar
    El Diablo Negro May 23, 2011 at 10:17 pm #

    Greg: Nope. Not true. Kerning is about the white space between letters.

    BLAM!

  202. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 10:19 pm #

    Yes, the FBI will be presented with evidence very soon-within weeks- showing that Obama committed a felony when he released the fake BC, and this is just for starters….a failure to convince the FBI to issue an arrest warrant for Obama will only trigger an effort by the citizens/militias to arrest the President, eventually.

  203. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 10:20 pm #

    In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
    .
    the only valid anser to a troll is “whatever”
    OK?

  204. avatar
    Thrifty May 23, 2011 at 10:25 pm #

    So if I’m ever accused of a crime, I can save money by not hiring a lawyer, and instead just hiring a couple guys to make some YouTube videos attesting to my honesty. Apparently, YouTube videos supersede all other forms of evidence in Birther law. So I figure the prosecution will provide one attorney. I need two guys who are willing to make YouTube videos explaining why I’m innocent and all the evidence the prosecution has is forged. I’m offering 200 bucks. Any takers?

  205. avatar
    Marshal May 23, 2011 at 10:28 pm #

    thrify offered whats called in court a ‘faulty analogy’

    see I contribute I am not a troll,, haha

  206. avatar
    Greg May 23, 2011 at 10:28 pm #

    Any conspiracy nut worth anything knows that kerning is the spacing between letters because that’s what got CBS – the forged National Guard letter was kerned. Unkerned type has equidistant spaces between each letter. So, the “I” has huge amounts of white space as a “w” is wide. Kerned type shaves the white space around the “I” so that it sits closer to the other letters. Kerned type looks typeset.

    What kerned text does not do is create DIFFERING spaces around the same letter. Kerning doesn’t make the “H” overlap one letter and not another. It doesn’t make the “n” and “o” of Honolulu closer on one spot of the form and farther apart on another.

    If one looks at the “i” and “t” combinations, one can see obviously un-kerned text!

  207. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 10:31 pm #

    Trifty, do you now get the “Whatever” point?
    please do, the troll is tiresome!

  208. avatar
    Greg May 23, 2011 at 10:31 pm #

    Kerning is the result of improper kerning

    I see the Wikipedia joke flew over your head. Read this very carefully:

    Keming is the result of improper kerning.

    Keming
    Kerning

  209. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 10:32 pm #

    Greg, you to should now get the “Whatever” point.
    please do, the troll is tiresome!

  210. avatar
    vma224 May 23, 2011 at 10:37 pm #

    WND’s Dr. Jerome Corsi stated on the Bill Cunningham Radio Show that he’s going to file criminal charges against the White House’ over the latest birth certificate forgery.
    .
    that should help Obama’s re-election, should be a good pick up for Obama in the campaign. go get ’em Corsi!

  211. avatar
    Greg May 23, 2011 at 10:42 pm #

    I’m enjoying watching the troll dance. Thinks kerning has to do with horizontal lines. Goes to Wikipedia and flubs the hilarious kerning joke they tell.

    It’s much more fun than MichaelN.

  212. avatar
    Obsolete May 23, 2011 at 10:49 pm #

    At this point, Marshal should post evidence of fraud committed by anyone in any branch of the Hawaiian government regarding Obama’s vital records, apologize for making baseless accusations of decent civil servants, or be banned for lying and libel.

    Judging by his “everyone in state and federal government are liars and killers and only I am smart enough to see this” juvenile mentality, I doubt he is of legal age to participate in most online forums. We should expect an angry letter from his mother soon.

  213. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2011 at 10:53 pm #

    another Corsi block buster, (the 127,889th OMG Corsi moment)
    Corsi to release the name of the person who forged Obama’s BC soon
    Any Day Now Corsi is Any Daying it again, he’s got more Any Day Now’s than Linus missing the football. Push that pay pal.
    .
    this latest salvo from Corsi means Obama can’t return to the White House! He will be marched out in chains by Tueday with all 6 birthers cheering. It’s Over!

  214. avatar
    G May 23, 2011 at 10:56 pm #

    Marshal: Yes, the FBI will be presented with evidence very soon-within weeks- showing that Obama committed a felony when he released the fake BC, and this is just for starters….a failure to convince the FBI to issue an arrest warrant for Obama will only trigger an effort by the citizens/militias to arrest the President, eventually.

    Citizen/militias arresting the President???

    You do realize that what you are calling for is sedition and a high crime AGAINST this country, don’t you?

  215. avatar
    BatGuano May 23, 2011 at 11:01 pm #

    Marshal:

    All the evidence ive seen shows kerning on the BC, an impossibility with old typewriters.

    a typed letter from 1957 with multiple examples of kerning:

    http://www.manhattanrarebooks-literature.com/LIT-PICS/tolkien/wrenn.jpg

  216. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP May 23, 2011 at 11:02 pm #

    Corsi is going to file charges against the president? LMAO. Then what? A strait jacket?

  217. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP May 23, 2011 at 11:04 pm #

    A citizen cannot file criminal charges against another citizen; a charging authority must do that

  218. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP May 23, 2011 at 11:07 pm #

    Uh-oh

    Obama in jubilant Ireland: `I’ve come home’

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110524/ap_on_re_eu/eu_obama

  219. avatar
    Randy May 23, 2011 at 11:12 pm #

    To Marshall, Mark Twain is quoted as saying “a lie will travel round the world in the time it takes the truth to lace it’s shoes”

  220. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP May 23, 2011 at 11:22 pm #

    I hope it’s on Pay-Per-View. I would pay good money to watch the birther klan get mowed down by the US military. Those A-10’s are something to watch

  221. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 23, 2011 at 11:57 pm #

    Marshal: see I contribute I am not a troll,, haha

    If it walks like a troll, and it smells like a troll, then it’s probably a troll. Troll characteristics:

    • — Flurry of short comments
    • — Comments focusing attention on the troll like “I’m leaving” or “I’m back”
    • — Failing to acknowledge substantive opposing argument
    • — Frequent and unjustified claims of having “won”
    • — Focusing on winning rather than conversation
    • — Talking about the debate rather than participating in the debate
    • — Insulting other commenters
    • — Claiming to be clever, or more clever than anyone else
    • — Negative generalizations about other commenters
    • — Failure to state a clear position, but leading others to jump to a conclusion which the troll then denies
    • — Ignoring the topic of conversation, and blurting in unrelated material

    Yup, sounds like a troll. I tell you what, I’ll set the moderation filter to let me review your comments before they appear on the blog. I have a 100% guaranteed troll test that I will perform on your future comments. I should be able to complete the test in a few days.

  222. avatar
    SluggoJD May 24, 2011 at 12:06 am #

    Thrifty: Agreed.I think that Jerome Corsi is a perfectly sane, highly immoral, reasonably intelligent human being who doesn’t believe what he says, but is lacking enough in dignity and decency not to be shamed by it.

    I also agree, Corsi is just an evil dude.

  223. avatar
    richCares May 24, 2011 at 12:07 am #

    “Obama in jubilant Ireland: `I’ve come home’”
    .
    that was great, too bad the FBI has to arrest him on his return
    Corsi is so excited he even pushed his own pay pal, no more usurper
    and it was Charlie Brown not Linus on the football
    This will be Corsi’s income thru 2016 (Obama’s second term)
    Afterbirthing forever!

  224. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny May 24, 2011 at 12:10 am #

    Marshal: SHOW us that there is no kerning, direct me to the spot.

    (Sorry, Richcares) I do not usually answer trollish comments, but this one proves the logical fallacy of birferism is. They demand that the (sane) opponent proves a negative.

    They want proof that Obama’s parents DID NOT fly to Mombasa in 1961. Proof that Obama is NOT a secret Muslim. Proof that a Republican governor in the midst of her campaign for Mc Cain DID NOT lie about Obama’s birth certificate. Proof that Vattel is NOT the basis and the source of the USD Constitution. And so on, NOT.

    It is nearly impossible to prove a negative. German and English soccer fans are still discussing the third English goal at Wembley in 1966, although video technology today says the chance that the ball was really in, is very, very small. But that one is still a thousand times likelier than the chance that any of the birfer illusions I mentioned is real.

    Occam’s razor. Before I discuss anything with people who argue that way, I want them to prove that Orly Taitz (WBUH) is NOT Svetlana Averbukha, a KGB sleeper reactivated by Putin to start a campaign to make the Republicans look like stupid fools and that Donald Trump (or should I say Donard Tlump) has found out about it (you canNOT believe what else his research team has found out), but canNOT reveal it because he is a secret agent of China himself.

  225. avatar
    richCares May 24, 2011 at 12:16 am #

    “who doesn’t believe what he says,”
    foggy is convinced that Corsi believes his own stuff, that he is as deluded as his readers.
    foggy has a good track record, so I agree with that.

  226. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP May 24, 2011 at 12:19 am #

    I agree. Corsi is as crazy as a shithouse rat, just like all the birthers

  227. avatar
    richCares May 24, 2011 at 12:33 am #

    “A citizen cannot file criminal charges against another citizen; a charging authority must
    do that”
    .
    you don’t understand, this is Corsi, this is what his followers believe and expect. Now Corsi wouldn’t lie, would he. He can do it, but he needs funds, push his pay pal, I sent $320,000.01 so far, he needs more. “Any Day Now” = Corsi’s motto!
    Just you wait! Drum Roll and Obama’s gone.

  228. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 24, 2011 at 12:44 am #

    Marshal: All the evidence ive [sic] seen shows kerning on the BC, an impossibility with old typewriters.

    Kerning is essentially the adjustment of the horizontal spacing between characters generally for aesthetic reasons.

    On a manual typewriter all the characters have the same width and are positioned as if each letter were placed in a grid (typically 10 or 12 characters per horizontal inch and 6 or 8 characters per vertical inch). Because each letter appears in a separate grid square, ideally one would not expect any part of one character to overlap any part of another.

    However, one can spend just a few minutes looking at real historical typewriter print to find these overlaps all over the place. In fact manual typewriters typically have some “play” in their mechanisms, or their keys are bent a little, and so what the birthers claim is “impossible” actually happens all the time.

    Therefore, anyone who claims expertise in typewriters and claims the letters never overlap is a liar, either about his expertise or his conclusion.

    Fonts used by word processing programs may have what are called “kerning pairs” which are just special spacing to use between particular pairs of letters. However, fixed-width fonts, and in particular what are called “typewriter” fonts are always fit exactly in the grid. Perfect positioning of each character in a grid is indicative of either a word processing program, or a really good typewriter. Uneven positioning between letters is indicative of a real typewriter.

    Marshal’s argument is hereby shown to be hogwash, as is any YouTube video with the same claim.

  229. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 24, 2011 at 12:59 am #

    Marshal: I looked over this site and never saw any reference the research of Wayne Madsen, or the unusual claims of Larry Sinclair.

    Well, all I can say is that you didn’t look very hard.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/tag/wayne-madsen/
    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/tag/larry-sinclair/

    Both are supermarket tabloid quality sources and of limited interest.

  230. avatar
    richCares May 24, 2011 at 1:10 am #

    Corsi’s latest paypal stuff is to donate to help his suit of Esquire Magzine, a suit that will never take place, but can line Corsi’s pockets. In person you can spot a birther, they have a worn spot on their forefinger (paypal pushing)
    at wnd you will see that Obama’s day of reckoning is coming soon, push the pay pal to speed it up. Any Day Now!
    what did that guy from Ringling Bros say?
    .
    without paypal Corsi is finished!

  231. avatar
    Expelliarmus May 24, 2011 at 2:51 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Perfect positioning of each character in a grid is indicative of either a word processing program, or a really good typewriter. Uneven positioning between letters is indicative of a real typewriter.

    I think that even positioning of letters,, whether a proportional or monospaced type, was probably not achieved until the IBM selectric with its golf-ball typing element came onto the market in 1961. Up until that time, the mechanics of a typewriter simply could not guarantee even spacing of letters. Anyone who has ever typed using a conventional typebar typewriter — see http://site.xavier.edu/polt/typewriters/tw-parts.html — would probably have the experience of the typebars colliding jamming if the typist struck the keys too quickly. There simply wasn’t an easy way mechanically for the platen to advance at a consistent rate while the typist also managed to maintain a steady rhythm, in a way that enabled an array of typebars coming from different positions to each manage to strike the center of the type guide in exactly the same manner.

    I think electric typewriters certainly made the task a little easier and less error prone, but the problem still remained. Most people were not expert typists, and the placement of various keys on the keyboard invariably makes it likely that some letter combinations will be hit in more rapid succession than others.

    It’s highly likely that the birth certificate was typed on a manual typewriter, because of the several instances of flying capital letters — capitals that are imprinted above the baseline. That’s the result of a shift key issue, and as the keys on electric typewriters are easier to press, those types of errors are less common.

  232. avatar
    obsolete May 24, 2011 at 3:33 am #

    I love it-
    now the obvious effects of a manual typewriter used in 1961 is somehow evidence of fraud.

    Hey Marshal,
    If you volunteer to get a DNA sample from Larry Sinclair maybe we can reopen that sorry topic…

  233. avatar
    AnotherBird May 24, 2011 at 5:52 am #

    gorefan: Here is a site that shows kerning is possible with a typewriter and this guy is a well known birther.

    http://paraleaglenm.wordpress.com/2011/05/10/debunking-birth-certificate-forgery-claims/

    Doesn’t he even think for a moment why a forensic analysis hasn’t come forward to claim that the document is a forgery? It is disheartening to read these guys trying to “explain away the moon.”

  234. avatar
    bjphysics May 24, 2011 at 6:01 am #

    Marshal: Yes, the FBI will be presented with evidence very soon-within weeks- showing that Obama committed a felony when he released the fake BC, and this is just for starters….a failure to convince the FBI to issue an arrest warrant for Obama will only trigger an effort by the citizens/militias to arrest the President, eventually.

    Victory is at hand, “soon-within weeks” or, if not that “eventually”; your long nightmare is almost, sort of, kind of, maybe soon, eventually over. Lawrence Welk music will be restored to the Whitehouse.

  235. avatar
    bjphysics May 24, 2011 at 6:13 am #

    Marshal: No one here even laid a glove on me

    Yes, you are winning because you have tiger blood. Can I borrow your porno goddesses?

  236. avatar
    misha May 24, 2011 at 7:05 am #

    Marshal: Yes, the FBI will be presented with evidence very soon-within weeks- showing that Obama committed a felony when he released the fake BC, and this is just for starters….a failure to convince the FBI to issue an arrest warrant for Obama will only trigger an effort by the citizens/militias to arrest the President, eventually.

    Threatening the president – always a smart idea. Hope you have a nice stay in SuperMax.

  237. avatar
    The Magic M May 24, 2011 at 7:09 am #

    > the FBI will be presented with evidence very soon

    You mean like you birthers did with the allegedly “forged COLB”? How did that work out for you, Skippy?

    > trigger an effort by the citizens/militias to arrest the President

    And that’s gonna go over well with the Secret Service. Suuurrre. I bet bigmouth birfers such as you won’t be in the front line when this happens. But you aren’t by chance that special idiot over at Orly’s who recommended to “bring a rope or handcuffs”?

  238. avatar
    The Magic M May 24, 2011 at 7:12 am #

    > Therefore, anyone who claims expertise in typewriters and claims the letters never overlap is a liar, either about his expertise or his conclusion.

    Our special deluded friend KBOA over at YouTube tries to explain this away by claiming a distinction between overlapping (due to typewriter’s hardware or typing style) and kerning (deliberately done for optical impression).
    However she, of course, offers no explanation how to tell the difference, especially when letters like “a” and “p” in “Kapiolani” don’t kern the way “A” and “V” in “AVIATION” do on systems that offer kerning.
    Just the same, she offers no explanation why a fixed-width computer font (which she claims generated the LFBC typing) would have kerning when this is reserved for proportional fonts.

  239. avatar
    Stanislaw May 24, 2011 at 7:26 am #

    misha: Threatening the president – always a smart idea. Hope you have a nice stay in SuperMax.

    Nothing says “I love the Constitution” quite like threatening to overthrow the government and form a lynch mob to get the President because your guy didn’t win. Ah, conservativism….

  240. avatar
    Northland10 May 24, 2011 at 7:44 am #

    With the various trolls and other birthers bringing up the “African” race thing again, I thought I might point out what I happened to fall upon in a 1913 Boy’s Life Magazine (note: this reflects the period it was written in, emphasis mine):

    The naturalization laws of the United States apply to aliens, – immigrants to this country who wish to become citizens. Generally speaking, only such immigrants can be naturalized who are of the white or Caucasian race. This bars Chinese, Japanese, Hindoos(sic), etc.; but because the negro has been admitted to citizenship in this country, Africans may also naturalized. Anarchists are barred by the naturalization laws from becoming citizens.

    It sure looks to me that they are referring to 2 races, “negro” and “African,” as they said Africans “may also” be naturalized.

    Page 17:
    http://books.google.com/books?id=Mjv37V85ybUC&lpg=PA39&ots=PWPCJQYurT&dq=books%20boys%20life%20civics&pg=PA17#v=onepage&q=books%20boys%20life%20civics&f=false,

  241. avatar
    roadburner May 24, 2011 at 9:00 am #

    Marshal: I believe the fake was inserted into the record about April 2…. This fake is what we see now ,

    riiight!

    so, someone snuck into the hawaii DOH, removed the book the LFBC is in (it isn´t a loose leaf in a folder, it´s bound , hence the curvature) and A) removed the page tha had someone elses BC on it and inserted the forgery so that the numbers ran in sequence. or B) inserted the forgery and changed all the other numbers to make sure the sequence ran correctly, and then after A or B rebound the book carefully and replaced it.

    o.k, now this is starting to get REALLY silly.

    that is of course, unless you know of an easier way to `insert a forgery on april 2nd´.

  242. avatar
    The Magic M May 24, 2011 at 9:14 am #

    > someone snuck into the hawaii DOH, removed the book the LFBC is in

    You forgot “opened the safe the book is in”.

    It shows how desperate the birfers have become. They have avoided for a long time to claim the Hawaiian DoH itself created a false BC on file or even that someone snuck in a false BC without the DoH noticing. And with good reason because that would necessarily remove Obama from the list of prime suspects (he could always claim he had no idea if that really were the case) – and we know both the deluded and the racist part of the birfers can’t allow that to happen.
    That some of them now claim a version that would allow Obama to say “I didn’t know anything, I’ve believed for my entire life I was born in Hawaii” is telling. They’re already sacrificing the “Obama is the evil mastermind criminal” meme, at least in part.

  243. avatar
    AdrianInEngland May 24, 2011 at 9:37 am #

    Cross, like most of the freepers he runs with, spend so much time in their echo chamber of delusion, that they truly start to believe the stories and theories they concoct. If that bunch had one tenth of the knowledge of constitutional law or international law, they’d be brilliant. Alas they are what we called ‘Sea Lawyers’ in the navy. Full of advice that, if you follow it, you’ll end up in deep trouble

  244. avatar
    Majority Will May 24, 2011 at 9:52 am #

    The Magic M:
    > someone snuck into the hawaii DOH, removed the book the LFBC is in

    You forgot “opened the safe the book is in”.

    It shows how desperate the birfers have become. They have avoided for a long time to claim the Hawaiian DoH itself created a false BC on file or even that someone snuck in a false BC without the DoH noticing. And with good reason because that would necessarily remove Obama from the list of prime suspects (he could always claim he had no idea if that really were the case) – and we know both the deluded and the racist part of the birfers can’t allow that to happen.
    That some of them now claim a version that would allow Obama to say “I didn’t know anything, I’ve believed for my entire life I was born in Hawaii” is telling. They’re already sacrificing the “Obama is the evil mastermind criminal” meme, at least in part.

    And yet occasionally the racism extends to the paranoid fear and mistrust of (dark skinned) Hawaiians as foreigners. There is the meme that Hawaii was never really a state or that names like Fukino and Onaka aren’t “American” (thank you Huckabee and other dog whistling GOP racists for implicitly endorsing their own special brand of xenophobia and bigotry).

  245. avatar
    richCares May 24, 2011 at 11:39 am #

    in the news:
    ABC News’ Devin Dwyer (@devindwyer) reports: Less than two months after formally launching his bid for reelection, President Obama is demonstrating why he could be on track to set a new campaign fundraising record in 2012.
    .
    Obama has helped the Democratic National Committee collect more than $14 million last month, more than double the amount raised by Republicans, according to Federal Election Commission filings.
    .
    the Usurper!

  246. avatar
    roadburner May 24, 2011 at 1:09 pm #

    richCares: in the news:ABC News’ Devin Dwyer (@devindwyer) reports: Less than two months after formally launching his bid for reelection, President Obama is demonstrating why he could be on track to set a new campaign fundraising record in 2012..Obama has helped the Democratic National Committee collect more than $14 million last month, more than double the amount raised by Republicans, according to Federal Election Commission filings..the Usurper!

    SHOCK, HORROR, PROBE!! OBAMA RAISES !$ MILLION TO FIGHT LEGAL CASES!

    well, that´ll probably be on NWD or orly taitz site pretty soon.

  247. avatar
    J. Edward Tremlett May 24, 2011 at 1:43 pm #

    And it’s book stunt time!

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=302673

    The title of the video makes it sound like Corsi is going to file CRIMINAL CHARGES based on his assertions.

    Shark, prepare to be jumped.

  248. avatar
    sponson May 24, 2011 at 3:14 pm #

    I’d like once again to advance my own “conspiracy theory,” one in which Donald Trump was “working for” the Republican Party. His role was to bring the “birther issue” to a head and put it away before the 2012 elections. He succeeded. Although it has no direct bearing on the validity of this theory, I espoused it before the President released his older once-a-birth-certificate document, not just afterwards. It seems obvious that the Republicans very much needed to sanitize the issue and get it away from their primary nominees, and Trump did that quite neatly.

  249. avatar
    richCares May 24, 2011 at 3:25 pm #

    Corsi’s accusation that Trump was working for Obama came after Corsi tried to get Trump back on board. Basically Trump said “fool me once, but fool me again…..”, you know the one!

  250. avatar
    misha May 24, 2011 at 3:47 pm #

    richCares: Basically Trump said “fool me once, but fool me again…..”, you know the one!

    GW Bush: There’s an old saying in Tennessee.. I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee.. that says: fool me once, shame on.. .. shame on you?.. .. Fool me.. you can’t get fooled again.

    – Rarely is the question asked, is our children learning?
    – Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.
    – Well, the jury is still out on evolution, you know.

  251. avatar
    El Diablo Negro May 24, 2011 at 4:14 pm #

    It also looks like Orly has a subpoena issued for Loretta Fuddy. I am no law person so I cant verify the credibility of this document. Also it is from a birther site. I am not sure you can issue a subpoena for this, could be just a hail mary.

    http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2011/05/subpoena-issued-for-loretta-fuddy.html

  252. avatar
    misha May 24, 2011 at 4:17 pm #

    El Diablo Negro: It also looks like Orly has a subpoena issued for Loretta Fuddy.

    Orly was a streetwalker in Moldova. She never denied it.

  253. avatar
    Thrifty May 24, 2011 at 4:29 pm #

    I think things got a little too heated in here yesterday. I suggest that whenever you find birther stubborness starting to piss you off, you look at this picture and relax.

    http://i.imgur.com/C5gAx.gif

  254. avatar
    El Diablo Negro May 24, 2011 at 4:29 pm #

    Mike Tyson eats children, I heard him say it. So it must be true.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4l0ZyKmeNE

  255. avatar
    Thrifty May 24, 2011 at 4:31 pm #

    El Diablo Negro: It also looks like Orly has a subpoena issued for Loretta Fuddy. I am no law person so I cant verify the credibility of this document. Also it is from a birther site. I am not sure you can issue a subpoena for this, could be just a hail mary.http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2011/05/subpoena-issued-for-loretta-fuddy.html

    I saw that on Orly’s site. I meant to ask, what’s up with that? Doesn’t a subpeona have to be signed by a judge? Certain legislative bodies have that right too, don’t they?

  256. avatar
    misha May 24, 2011 at 4:47 pm #

    Thrifty: Doesn’t a subpeona have to be signed by a judge?

    Yes.

    Thrifty: Certain legislative bodies have that right too, don’t they?

    Yes.

  257. avatar
    Thrifty May 24, 2011 at 5:10 pm #

    When I was a kid, we used to get these catalogs and they had these professional playkits in them. I think I remember there was a doctor, a lawyer, and a banker. I always wanted one, but my mom would never buy them for me. Is it possible that Orly got her hands on one of these lawyer playkits, and mistook it for law school and a license to practice law?

    Open question to the group. Which is sillier, Orly Taitz’s subpeona, or those Citizen Grand Juries?

  258. avatar
    misha May 24, 2011 at 5:13 pm #

    Thrifty: Open question to the group. Which is sillier, Orly Taitz’s subpeona, or those Citizen Grand Juries?

    Equally ludicrous.

  259. avatar
    JoZeppy May 24, 2011 at 5:43 pm #

    Thrifty: I saw that on Orly’s site. I meant to ask, what’s up with that? Doesn’t a subpeona have to be signed by a judge? Certain legislative bodies have that right too, don’t they?

    Actually, an attorney can sign a subpoena to support active litigation during discovery. There are limitations, of course, and Orly’s screws everything up. First off, you have to be authorized to practice either where the deposition is to take place, or where the case is pending. Orly is neither. Secondly, a valid subpoena must be issued under the court where the production and deposition are to take place. Orly issues a DC subpoena for a deposition to take place in Hawaii. Not a valid subpoena. Finally, you cannot require the disclosure of privileged or other protected material, which is what she is requesting. So yes, an attorney can, under certain circumstances issue a subpoena. Can Orly do what she did? Nope.

  260. avatar
    Arthur May 24, 2011 at 6:08 pm #

    Thrifty:

    Open question to the group.Which is sillier, Orly Taitz’s subpeona, or those Citizen Grand Juries?

    Because they involve the active participation of dozens of people, I go with the Citizen Grand Juries as the sillier of the two.

  261. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 24, 2011 at 8:00 pm #

    misha: Thrifty: Doesn’t a subpeona have to be signed by a judge?

    Yes.

    Guess again.

  262. avatar
    bjphysics May 24, 2011 at 8:27 pm #

    JoZeppy: Actually, an attorney can sign a subpoena to support active litigation during discovery. There are limitations, of course, and Orly’s screws everything up. First off, you have to be authorized to practice either where the deposition is to take place, or where the case is pending. Orly is neither. Secondly, a valid subpoena must be issued under the court where the production and deposition are to take place. Orly issues a DC subpoena for a deposition to take place in Hawaii. Not a valid subpoena. Finally, you cannot require the disclosure of privileged or other protected material, which is what she is requesting. So yes, an attorney can, under certain circumstances issue a subpoena. Can Orly do what she did? Nope.

    I assume much of what you posted derives from Rule 45, Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. The exclusion of privileged or other protected material makes sense but I don’t see it in Rule 45. Can you direct us to the source of that guidance?

  263. avatar
    Rickey May 24, 2011 at 9:30 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Guess again.

    Actually, it depends. Different districts have different local rules. In the Southern District of New York, all subpoenas have be signed by the assigned judge, although sometimes you can find a friendly clerk who will provide you with blank subpoenas which are stamped with the judge’s signature.

    I’m not sure what the rules are in D.C., but this subpoena will not fly anywhere. In addition to the deficiencies in the subpoena which JoZeppy posted above, the government just filed its answer and a motion to strike the complaint yesterday, so the case is not ripe for discovery of any kind. The subpoena will be quashed.

  264. avatar
    Rickey May 24, 2011 at 9:43 pm #

    The motion to strike relates to the fact that Orly violated Federal Rule of Civil Procedure (big surprise there) by filing a complaint and exhibits which include unredacted Social Security Numbers of multiple individuals.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/56109472/TAITZ-v-ASTRUE-11-MOTION-to-Strike-1-Complaint-3-RECAP-Amended-Complaint-and-Attached-Exhibits-gov-uscourts-dcd-146770-11-0

  265. avatar
    JoZeppy May 24, 2011 at 10:10 pm #

    bjphysics: I assume much of what you posted derives from Rule 45, Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. The exclusion of privileged or other protected material makes sense but I don’t see it in Rule 45. Can you direct us to the source of that guidance?

    That would be correct….Exclusion of protected material is Rule 45(C)(3)(a)(iii).

    Sorry…I should cite these things more often.