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More typewriter issues raised with the long form

An interesting article appears over at the American Thinker. The gist of it is that if you take the word “Hospital” and the word “Highway” from the Savannah Guthrie photo and line them up (cut & paste), the author claims that you can easily see that the words are typed at two different pitches (number of horizontal characters per inch). They say that different pitch implies different typewriters, and different typewriters implies fraud. The image from the article that supposedly shows the different pitches is:

image

Here’s what you are supposed to see:

Looking at the above pictures, you can then see that the pitch of the two words is different, as the H of "Highway" is well to the right of the o of "Hospital."  You can clearly see that the two words were typed by different typewriters ….  Even the size of the letters is visibly smaller in the word "Highway" than in the word "Hospital."

Is the image showing a real difference in pitch, or is it an illusion, an artifact of the way Guthrie made the photo? Let’s see.

First look at the top line of the certificate form. It is not horizontal – the whole image is rotated! I took their image and rotated it back to the vertical using the top horizontal line on the form for alignment with the grid. Here’s what the image looks like “on the level.”

image

You can see two things. First the “H” in Highway doesn’t look so far over, and second the horizontal line above “Island” isn’t quite level, demonstrating some aberration in the photo, presumably taken up close with a cell phone camera.

The next photo shows another problem, and that is that they didn’t properly position one word over the other. When I drew, with great care, lines connecting the “a,” they weren’t vertical.

image

What would a properly-done positioning of the two words for comparison look like? I went to the source for the Guthrie photo and did my own analysis. I found out that how you did the experiment affected the results.

I took the second Guthrie photo because it was bigger. Instead of pasting one word next to another, and giving the possibility of a visual illusion, I pasted the second word, “Highway” on top of “hospital,” and made it 50% transparent.  I tried to perfectly overlay the letter “a” in the experiment.

image

Overlaying the “H” it is clear that one is not bigger than the other:

image

So is this all just artifacts of Guthrie’s tiny lens camera, off angle, not level and with spherical aberration? I’m took the high-resolution press version of the certificate to look at. Again, rather than pasting the words over each other and leaving the possibility of illusion, I have made the word “Highway” semi-transparent and actually placed on top of “Hospital” and aligned the letter “a”:

image

The letter “H” appears very slightly to the right, but we already know that the typewriter used for the long form has variation in the horizontal spacing of letters and this “H” seems to be reasonable. I overlaid the two “H” instances and one can see that both are identical in size.

image

Typewriters type in one of two pitches, 10 characters per inch and 12 characters per inch. I used Microsoft word to create a precise 10 pitch and a 12 pitch example. The numbers show that the pitch is done correctly:

image

What it really looks like when you compare the two pitches (again aligning the “a”):

image

You can see that real different pitches make a huge difference, not the tiny fly speck the birthers see.

Essentially the “H” is a bit to the right on the birther certificate and the author has created an image that makes the shift appear larger than it is. In essence the mechanical play in the typewriter was first erroneously called “kerning” and now the same artifact is called “different pitch.”

The birthers are still looking at the clouds and seeing the face Santa Claus. Or is it the smiling face of Alvin Onaka.

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131 Responses to More typewriter issues raised with the long form

  1. avatar
    Chef April 12, 2012 at 11:00 am #

    LFBC PDF forgery-deniers’ illusions biting dust:

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/04/do_it_yourself_proof_of_the_obama_birth_certificate_fraud.html

  2. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 12, 2012 at 12:13 pm #

    Should be worth an article.

    Chef: LFBC PDF forgery-deniers’ illusions biting dust:

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/04/do_it_yourself_proof_of_the_obama_birth_certificate_fraud.html

  3. avatar
    gorefan April 12, 2012 at 12:31 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Should be worth an article.

    This may be the noteworthy part of this article,

    “I was a typist in the Italian Army” LOL

  4. avatar
    y_p_w April 12, 2012 at 12:40 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Should be worth an article.
    Chef: LFBC PDF forgery-deniers’ illusions biting dust:
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/04/do_it_yourself_proof_of_the_obama_birth_certificate_fraud.html

    Wow! Now I’ve seen everything. So doing a cut and paste proves that it was “manufactured” because the type is smaller. How deep.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_(visual)

    I guess the example here of the railroad tracks must have been done in Photoshop since the width of the rails at the top is smaller than the width of the rails at the bottom.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Railroad-Tracks-Perspective.jpg

  5. avatar
    y_p_w April 12, 2012 at 1:00 pm #

    gorefan: This may be the noteworthy part of this article,“I was a typist in the Italian Army” LOL

    But apparently not a photographer.

    http://www.photofidelity.com/blog/dwindling-size-perspective.html
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/53922689@N03/5489053657/

    It’s pretty clear that she took the photo at a slight angle where the bottom was closer to the lens than the top. Besides that, there can be lens distortion – especially with the tiny lenses that you’d find on a camera phone.

    And of course as has been mentioned many times, the movement of the carriage for each keystroke can be inconsistent for any number of reasons, including typing too quickly as well as mechanical wear.

  6. avatar
    y_p_w April 12, 2012 at 1:16 pm #

    Like I said earlier in another comment, more likely a visual diminishing perspective and/or carriage advance inconsistency from a manual typewriter.

    If you put it in a scanner, this won’t happen. A handhelf camera at an angle is a different matter.

  7. avatar
    richCares April 12, 2012 at 1:18 pm #

    “So the birthers are again imagining things.”
    that’s all they ever had

  8. avatar
    Rickey April 12, 2012 at 1:28 pm #

    The very idea that a forger would use two different typewriters to create a single document is preposterous.

  9. avatar
    Tarrant April 12, 2012 at 1:52 pm #

    Rickey:
    The very idea that a forger would use two different typewriters to create a single document is preposterous.

    Indeed…it’s one of the more amusing claims, to me, that in the case of the “layers” on the LFBC, they point to the fact that at times some individual letters in the middle of words are on different layers, and actually expect one to believe that some weird-ass forger decided instead of creating entire words, to do 6 letters out of 7 in a word, then paste in the last letter from somewhere else.

    As I’ve said before, birthers want us to believe that the President and his ‘goons’ are strong enough to threaten the entire US political system, every member of the media, top conservative talk show hosts and columnists, the governments of every state including the governors and secretaries of state, can change the internet at a whim to eliminate stories on this issue…(but whose powers of persuasion and threat aren’t enough to get those same people to support his health care bill, JUST to prevent them from reporting on eligibility and NO OTHER ISSUE AT ALL).

    But could only find the worst forger in the world who creates 80% of a word then decides to add in a middle letter later.

  10. avatar
    Wile April 12, 2012 at 2:23 pm #

    Tarrant:*snip*
    But could only find the worst forger in the world who creates 80% of a word then decides to add in a middle letter later.

    Well, it all makes sense when you think about it from just the right angle. From the comments section of the American Thinker article…

    “””Hey folks, drop this idea, Obama and his minions intentionally let out a fake document to drive us all crazy.”””

    I’m thinking not a lotta gas was spent on that trip.

  11. avatar
    justlw April 12, 2012 at 2:58 pm #

    I’m confused. How did Ms. Guthrie take a picture of a PDF?

  12. avatar
    Sam C April 12, 2012 at 3:41 pm #

    Tarrant:… birthers want us to believe that the President and his ‘goons’ are strong enough to threaten the entire US political system, every member of the media, top conservative talk show hosts and columnists, the governments of every state including the governors and secretaries of state, can change the internet at a whim to eliminate stories on this issue…(but whose powers of persuasion and threat aren’t enough to get those same people to support his health care bill, JUST to prevent them from reporting on eligibility and NO OTHER ISSUE AT ALL).

    You omitted that these schemers also stole Dr Who’s Tardis to travel back in time and put false birth announcements in two Hawai’i newspapers. And that was probably how they also flew Obama’s mother between Kenya and Hawai’i without her appearing in the immigration records or statistics. Is there nothing these Democrats can’t do?

    Isn’t the site American Thinker one of the most inappropriately named websites around? It’s a cacophony of deluded toads screeching “I’m a prince! I’m a prince!”. I haven’t seen such an unashamed collection of pure-bred morons for a long time.

  13. avatar
    richCares April 12, 2012 at 3:45 pm #

    “I’m confused. How did Ms. Guthrie take a picture of a PDF?”
    when the certified copies from Hawaii were shown to the press, Mrs Gunthrie took a photo of it, it was not a PDF, it had the raised seal, so your question makes no sense.

  14. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 12, 2012 at 4:14 pm #

    Essentially what we see here is what the birthers called “Kerning” relabeled as “pitch.”

  15. avatar
    y_p_w April 12, 2012 at 4:15 pm #

    richCares: “I’m confused. How did Ms. Guthrie take a picture of a PDF?”when the certified copies from Hawaii were shown to the press, Mrs Gunthrie took a photo of it, it was not a PDF, it had the raised seal, so your question makes no sense.

    I’m pretty sure that was meant to be sarcastic given that the birthers have recently hung their hats on various “anomolies” of the PDF hosted on the WH website while ignoring the Guthrie photos.

  16. avatar
    Sef April 12, 2012 at 4:27 pm #

    Sam C: You omitted that these schemers also stole Dr Who’s Tardis to travel back in time and put false birth announcements in two Hawai’i newspapers. And that was probably how they also flew Obama’s mother between Kenya and Hawai’i without her appearing in the immigration records or statistics. Is there nothing these Democrats can’t do?

    You’re all missing the obvious. President Obama is a Teselecta. Thus he was able to do all these things without the need of The Doctor’s tardis.

  17. avatar
    Bob April 12, 2012 at 4:58 pm #

    Every new piece of “evidence” and new theory these grifters and cranks come up with just prolongs the torture for the Birthers.

  18. avatar
    justlw April 12, 2012 at 5:26 pm #

    Every time I see the American Thinker masthead, I think, “Oh, sorry, Uncle Sam. Didn’t know you were in there.”

  19. avatar
    justlw April 12, 2012 at 5:33 pm #

    y_p_w: he birthers have recently hung their hats on various “anomolies” of the PDF hosted on the WH website while ignoring the Guthrie photos.

    Not just ignoring the photos (and the paper copies that were handed out at the press gaggle, which this very post makes use of); the CCP’s claim is that the paper certified LFBC shown and photographed at the gaggle never existed.

  20. avatar
    Tarrant April 12, 2012 at 5:37 pm #

    Sam C: You omitted that these schemers also stole Dr Who’s Tardis to travel back in time and put false birth announcements in two Hawai’i newspapers. And that was probably how they also flew Obama’s mother between Kenya and Hawai’i without her appearing in the immigration records or statistics. Is there nothing these Democrats can’t do?

    Isn’t the site American Thinker one of the most inappropriately named websites around? It’s a cacophony of deluded toads screeching “I’m a prince! I’m a prince!”. I haven’t seen such an unashamed collection of pure-bred morons for a long time.

    Butterdezillion has us covered there – she believes that his Goon Squad went all over the WORLD and found every single copy and microfiche of said newspapers, removed them, and introduced forged/altered copies with the President’s birth added. No TARDIS necessary :-)

  21. avatar
    Mary Adams April 12, 2012 at 5:39 pm #

    Rickey:
    The very idea that a forger would use two different typewriters to create a single document is preposterous.

    But the idea that the clerks would is not.

    During slow periods it is very likely that they would fill in parts like the hospital name, city, county etc – things that will be the same for all births at that hospital, so that if they get slammed with births, all they have to do is fill in the stuff specific to that one baby. We do this kind of thing all the time in hospitals ’cause when it rains, it pours.

  22. avatar
    ellen April 12, 2012 at 6:05 pm #

    Probably I am missing something, but could someone explain to me how even if it were true that multiple typewriters were used, that would prove that there was a forgery?

    Say a clerk who is using typewriter A remembers that she has a doctor’s appointment and takes what she was doing out of the typewriter and hands it to another clerk and says: “I gotta run to an appointment, would you please finish this for me?” Is that illegal? Would the fact that it was done even hint that the birth certificate was forged?

    Furthermore, I agree with Mary Adams, another explanation is that some clerks filled in common information, such as the name of the hospital, and then when a child was born, the specific information was filled in, which could have involved multiple typewriters, of course.

  23. avatar
    Bob April 12, 2012 at 6:11 pm #

    The only thing more indicative of a forgery than evidence of multiple typewriters and/or typewriter settings being used is no evidence of multiple typewriters and/or typewriter settings being used.

  24. avatar
    Rickey April 12, 2012 at 6:30 pm #

    Mary Adams: But the idea that the clerks would is not.

    During slow periods it is very likely that they would fill in parts like the hospital name, city, county etc – things that will be the same for all births at that hospital, so that if they get slammed with births, all they have to do is fill in the stuff specific to that one baby. We do this kind of thing all the time in hospitals ’cause when it rains, it pours.

    That’s an excellent point.

  25. avatar
    justlw April 12, 2012 at 7:03 pm #

    ellen: Probably I am missing something, but could someone explain to me how even if it were true that multiple typewriters were used, that would prove that there was a forgery?

    Because all forgers are like Batman arch-enemies: they’re compelled to insert clues about their handiwork — leaving out numbers, switching typewriters, adding smiley faces, making up names that sound like musical instruments… .

    It’s the mark of a true professional. And they’d get away with it, too, if it wasn’t for those meddling birthers.

  26. avatar
    y_p_w April 12, 2012 at 7:21 pm #

    ellen: Probably I am missing something, but could someone explain to me how even if it were true that multiple typewriters were used, that would prove that there was a forgery?

    Honestly – it looks like the same typewriter. However, the slight angle that it was taken with coupled with the closeness of the camera to the document created a slight diminishing perspective. Think of it like a photo of railroad tracks that vanishes into the distance. There was also an imprecise carriage advance, as we’ve seen quite often on the document.

    I think their theory is that instead of getting a real typewriter, someone went out and searched for different images of typewritten text, then pasted those images into a single document. The theory would also be that they came from different sources where the size of the type may not have been exactly the same.

  27. avatar
    JPotter April 12, 2012 at 9:10 pm #

    Birthers have yet to discover perspective? Keep having to ratchet my expectations downward.

    What’s truly telling about the selective presentation in this new(?) meme is that they chose to compare only 2 words. The page was rippled and photographed at an angle. Take every word and overlay them all, you’ll wind up with a spectrum of apparent letter sizes.

    Now wouldn’t that make their heads explode?

    Here’s an image birfers could have fun with. ;)

  28. avatar
    JPotter April 12, 2012 at 9:13 pm #

    … or this one ….

    … and this one is really fun!

  29. avatar
    JPotter April 12, 2012 at 9:15 pm #

    ellen: Probably I am missing something, but could someone explain to me how even if it were true that multiple typewriters were used, that would prove that there was a forgery?

    Because all birthers know that in real life, everyone starts a task and immediately finishes it, w/o interruption. I know all my work days go that way.

    In truth, it’s just another symptom of the underappreciation for the complexity and chaos present in all human systems.

  30. avatar
    elmo April 12, 2012 at 9:18 pm #

    Well, ok. Let’s assume the birth certificate is a forgery. How do birthers then explain the fact that the government officials responsible for keeping birth records in Hawaii have publicly and repeatedly confirmed that their official legal records reflect that Obama was indeed born in Hawaii?

  31. avatar
    Hawaiiborn April 12, 2012 at 9:20 pm #

    ellen:
    Probably I am missing something, but could someone explain to me how even if it were true that multiple typewriters were used, that would prove that there was a forgery?

    Say a clerk who is using typewriter A remembers that she has a doctor’s appointment and takes what she was doing out of the typewriter and hands it to another clerk and says: “I gotta run to an appointment, would you please finish this for me?” Is that illegal? Would the fact that it was done even hint that the birth certificate was forged?

    Furthermore, I agree with Mary Adams, another explanation is that some clerks filled in common information, such as the name ofthe hospital, and then when a child was born, the specific information was filled in, which could have involved multiple typewriters, of course.

    Or simply, the ribbon ran out on one typewriter, and the clerk in the midst of typing this document out, took it out of the typewriter, moved to one that had a good ribbon and finished it up there before getting a replacement ribbon.

    I can’t count how many times I’ve done a report on a typewriter and the ribbon ran out in the middle of my typing…..we couldn’t afford one of those new fangled contraptions called a compoooooooter with that fancy word processing program….

  32. avatar
    Rickey April 12, 2012 at 9:47 pm #

    Coincidentally,.I received an e-mail from Hammacher Schlemmer today alerting me to the fact that they are carrying a new model manual typewriter.

    http://www.hammacher.com/Product/81898?promo=search

  33. avatar
    Thomas Brown April 12, 2012 at 10:03 pm #

    elmo:
    Well, ok. Let’s assume the birth certificate is a forgery. How do birthers then explain the fact that the government officials responsible for keeping birth records in Hawaii have publicly and repeatedly confirmed that their official legal records reflect that Obama was indeed born in Hawaii?

    Easy. The Rothschilds and George Soros funded a rogue element of the Illuminati to bribe the Aliens living under the Bermuda Triangle with the first-born children of the Conservatives imprisoned in FEMA camps to create perfect copies of the Hawaiian officials, and then use their time-travel abilities to send the Muslim Brotherhood to Hawaii to substitute these impostors for the real officials (who were bumped off by the Clintons to appease Obama so he wouldn’t kill Chelsea) in time to vouch for the forged Birth Certificate.

    They then (naturally) left it to the Freemasons to round up all the microfilm copies of the Hawaiian Newspapers and plant new versions created by the CIA in every library they found them in with fake images of the announcements of Obama’s birth there.

    Then it was only necessary to make a high-resolution paper copy of the LFBC from the low-resolution compressed computer-generated photo-shopped .pdf from the White House and have the freshly-minted reptilian shape-shifting body doubles plant it in the Hawaii archives… leaving absolutely no traces behind or witnesses who weren’t part of the conspiracy alive.

    Childishly simple, really.

  34. avatar
    y_p_w April 12, 2012 at 11:31 pm #

    Rickey:
    Coincidentally,.I received an e-mail from Hammacher Schlemmer today alerting me to the fact that they are carrying a new model manual typewriter.

    http://www.hammacher.com/Product/81898?promo=search

    You know, a good typewriter might really be nice for addressing envelopes.

    I know a lot of printing programs can print labels or directly onto envelopes. However, toner has a nasty habit of rubbing off with friction, and inkjets cost too much to run and/or bleed when wet.

  35. avatar
    ASK Esq April 13, 2012 at 12:20 am #

    elmo: Well, ok. Let’s assume the birth certificate is a forgery. How do birthers then explain the fact that the government officials responsible for keeping birth records in Hawaii have publicly and repeatedly confirmed that their official legal records reflect that Obama was indeed born in Hawaii?

    There’s a couple of hardcore birthers on the Hannity board who say that, since Hawaiian law (in their interpretation) prevents any HDOH employee from verifying any information on a birth certificate to anyone without a tangible interest, any statements made by employees to the effect that Barack Obama weas born in Hawaii are null and void.

    That would be an interesting defense. “Well, You Honor, I did run the red light and hit that 86 year old woman who was crossing the street. But, since the law says I’m not allowed to do that, it didn’t happen.”

  36. avatar
    misha April 13, 2012 at 12:49 am #

    Rickey: Coincidentally,.I received an e-mail from Hammacher Schlemmer today alerting me to the fact that they are carrying a new model manual typewriter. http://www.hammacher.com/Product/81898?promo=search

    Most likely, it was made in India, but that is conjecture: “The story being picked up is one that originated in India’s Business Standard, in which a representative for Godrej & Boyce, who have produced typewriters in India since the 1950s, said that the company had ceased production on the machines back in 2009.

    The typewriter is “far from dead,” [says] Ed Michael, General Manager of Sales at Moonachie, NJ-based Swintec.

    “We have manufacturers making typewriters for us in China, Japan, Indonesia,” Michael says. “We have contracts with correctional facilities in 43 states to supply clear typewriters for inmates so they can’t hide contraband inside them,” Michael explained.”

    Read on: http://gawker.com/5795649/relax-theyre-still-making-typewriters

    Hammacher Schlemmer was my favorite store, when I lived in New York.

  37. avatar
    misha April 13, 2012 at 12:52 am #

    Rickey: I received an e-mail from Hammacher Schlemmer today alerting me to the fact that they are carrying a new model manual typewriter.

    I forgot to add that all of my high school and college papers, were typed on an Underwood, my mother bought new in 1950. I stopped using it when I bought a Mac 512E.

  38. avatar
    misha April 13, 2012 at 12:59 am #

    Thomas Brown: Easy. The Rothschilds and George Soros funded a rogue element of the Illuminati…leaving absolutely no traces behind or witnesses who weren’t part of the conspiracy alive.

    As an officer in the International Jewish Conspiracy™, I have to warn you that you are now being watched. All I can say is, ‘be careful.’

    And thanks for letting the cat out of the bag. (Apologies to Max.)

  39. avatar
    misha April 13, 2012 at 1:04 am #

    ASK Esq: That would be an interesting defense. “Well, You Honor, I did run the red light and hit that 86 year old woman who was crossing the street. But, since the law says I’m not allowed to do that, it didn’t happen.”

    Here’s what I want to see: A state passes a personhood law. Then, a pregnant woman drives alone in the HOV lane. At the trial, her lawyer says with a straight face, “Your Honor, my client was not alone in the car. She is pregnant, so there were two people in the car.”

  40. avatar
    misha April 13, 2012 at 1:08 am #

    richCares: “So the birthers are again imagining things.” that’s all they ever had

    You beat me to it.

  41. avatar
    y_p_w April 13, 2012 at 3:04 am #

    misha: Most likely, it was made in India, but that is conjecture: “The story being picked up is one that originated in India’s Business Standard, in which a representative for Godrej & Boyce, who have produced typewriters in India since the 1950s, said that the company had ceased production on the machines back in 2009.

    The company that owns the trademark no longer markets typewriters. This looks to be more like a modern mechanical typewriter with the Royal name slapped on it.

    Brother still makes electric typewriters. The ones I’ve seen are mostly daisy-wheel type.

    http://www.brother-usa.com/typewriters/default.aspx?src=productIndex

    And as others reminisce about using typewriters, I remember composing a college essay on the spot with an IBM Selectric II. That thing had perfect monotype spacing, but was loud. I also made good use of the lift-off correction tape.

  42. avatar
    Evil Saint April 13, 2012 at 3:42 am #

    Birfer’s apparently can’t grasp the concept of the scientific method.
    I’m a fan of the TARDIS notion, I’m suprised there isn’t a youtube video.
    Dr. Who Theme 1963-1969
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NPJ6GMXM3E

  43. avatar
    traderjack April 13, 2012 at 3:43 am #

    All that playing around moving things leads to the same concerns!

    why not just grid the darn think and see if they all fit in the same grids.

    Once it is in the typewriter the keys fill the same spaces and sizes and variations in size would be self evident.

  44. avatar
    traderjack April 13, 2012 at 4:19 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy
    “The letter “H” appears very slightly to the right, but we already know that the typewriter used for the long form has variation in the horizontal spacing of letters and this “H” seems to be reasonable. I overlaid the two “H” instances and one can see that both are identical”

    Now this is the type of statement that the birthers would make.

    We do not know that the typewriter has variations in the horizontal spacing, we think it has such variation based upon what we believe is accurate information. But the information we are basing our truths on, is what is claimed to be a forgery.

    Pretty difficult to take information from a forgery and make it a truism for our beliefs.

    Secondly. Aligning the letters H would not change the apparent variation of the indexing of the letter as the letter have not moved on the page and must bear the same relationship to each other letter regardless of which is aligned.

    Am I wrong on that point?

  45. avatar
    misha April 13, 2012 at 4:30 am #

    traderjack: Am I wrong on that point?

    1 – When are you going to notify the FBI?
    2 – Who cares? Obama is going to be re-elected. Intrade has Obama at 60.8%.

    Better get used to it.

  46. avatar
    The Magic M April 13, 2012 at 5:19 am #

    JPotter: Birthers have yet to discover perspective?

    Well, the same issue popped up when I discussed the PDF with Paul Irey on WND.
    Both Irey and Vogt missed such elementary things as the paper obviously being curved during scanning, accounting for letters towards the “top” appearing larger and even slightly distorted horizontally. This pretty much shot down his “different fonts, different font sizes” argument. (With an additional catch being the fact that the curvature isn’t constant from top to bottom.)

    So yes, birthers have always been third-dimensionally challenged.

    Apart from that, there are two things that make me wonder:

    1. Why didn’t they make the same argument about the PDF? (Answer: the PDF doesn’t have perspective issues – only 3D issues – so the argument can’t be reproduced for it.)

    2. Why did it take them so long to find even one potential issue with the Guthrie photos? (Possible answers: They really could not find any for a year, though they found “dozens” about the PDF within days. Also, most of them want to ignore the photos as their mere existence shoots down the claim that the PDF was the base – or “original” – forgery.)

  47. avatar
    Northland10 April 13, 2012 at 7:02 am #

    traderjack: But the information we are basing our truths on, is what is claimed to be a forgery.

    Pretty difficult to take information from a forgery and make it a truism for our beliefs.

    If you start from the assumption that is a forgery, you will most likely only find your supposed “evidence” that it is a forgery. Since a few grifters claim it, and you want to believe it therefore, nothing else is possible. Welcome to the wonderful world of prejudice (i.e. you have pre-judged the document).

    Now, I assume you will next say that, “well, the Obots are prejudging that it is not forged.” There is likely some truth to that but, since Hawaii has stated that he was born there and they indeed sent the birth certificate to him, the list of initial evidence is already in existence.

    The list of your initial evidence was, you don’t like him.

    It is not that you can’t handle the truth but that you and the Birthers do not want the truth. Enjoy your anger and delusion, for in the end, it is all you will have.

  48. avatar
    elmo April 13, 2012 at 8:14 am #

    ASK Esq: There’s a couple of hardcore birthers on the Hannity board who say that, since Hawaiian law (in their interpretation) prevents any HDOH employee from verifying any information on a birth certificate to anyone without a tangible interest, any statements made by employees to the effect that Barack Obama weas born in Hawaii are null and void.

    Well, ok, let’s play along. Hawaiian law about nondisclosure of birth information might explain what Hawaiian officials would not contradict Obama when he publicized his “forged” certificate, but why would Hawaiian officials confirm the “forgery” if it contradicted what was in their records? Even Republican Governor Lingle, who at the time of the 2008 campaign was McCain’s state campaign manager?

    Oh, what a tangled web we weave….

  49. avatar
    J. Potter April 13, 2012 at 8:54 am #

    The Magic M: 2. Why did it take them so long to find even one potential issue with the Guthrie photos?

    Because they have breezed over their existence, most likely!

    Another ‘problem’ with those photos is going to be spherical distortion … taken up close with a cell phone camera, basically a pinpoint lens? Yikes.

    And simple minded birfers like Troller Jack say “Throw a grid on it!”

    Oy.

  50. avatar
    The Magic M April 13, 2012 at 9:06 am #

    elmo: but why would Hawaiian officials confirm the “forgery” if it contradicted what was in their records?

    I think the number of birthers who still hang on to this contorted and contrived way of thinking is very small. The vast majority has settled for “Hawaii is in on it and has no problem with openly lying”. They don’t bother trying to convince other people who say “I don’t believe Hawaii is part of a conspiracy” anymore.

  51. avatar
    justlw April 13, 2012 at 9:36 am #

    J. Potter: And simple minded birfers like Troller Jack say “Throw a grid on it!”

    “Do some pushups, maybe it’ll go away!”

  52. avatar
    Sef April 13, 2012 at 10:43 am #

    Thomas Brown: Easy. The Rothschilds and George Soros funded a rogue element of the Illuminati to bribe the Aliens living under the Bermuda Triangle with the first-born children of the Conservatives imprisoned in FEMA camps to create perfect copies of the Hawaiian officials, and then use their time-travel abilities to send the Muslim Brotherhood to Hawaii to substitute these impostors for the real officials (who were bumped off by the Clintons to appease Obama so he wouldn’t kill Chelsea) in time to vouch for the forged Birth Certificate.

    They then (naturally) left it to the Freemasons to round up all the microfilm copies of the Hawaiian Newspapers and plant new versions created by the CIA in every library they found them in with fake images of the announcements of Obama’s birth there.

    Then it was only necessary to make a high-resolution paper copy of the LFBC from the low-resolution compressed computer-generated photo-shopped .pdf from the White House and have the freshly-minted reptilian shape-shifting body doubles plant it in the Hawaii archives… leaving absolutely no traces behind or witnesses who weren’t part of the conspiracy alive.

    Childishly simple, really.

    This is not so far-fetched when you consider who runs the Hawaii Polynesian Cultural Center.

  53. avatar
    Mary Brown April 13, 2012 at 10:45 am #

    I am interested in the analysis and believe it is important to respond but nothing will ever be enough for these folks. I know someone who believes the moon landings were fake and you will never convince her otherwise. Maybe some things are just so unacceptable to some-like and African American President- that fantasy is their only way to deal with it.

  54. avatar
    Sef April 13, 2012 at 11:44 am #

    Now that Ms. Hill, in NJ, has confirned what we have been saying all along about the PDF, let me just add that if the WH had been intending for the PDF to have any legal significance they would have taken great pains in its production. They would have made sure that there was only 1 layer, they would have used an application which could attach a digitall signature, they would have created a method where the signature could be unambiguously verified, a method would be created to detect a man-in-the-middle attack, and they would have performed OCR so that screen scrapers could textually see the data. None of this was done so they never had any intention for its use legally.

  55. avatar
    Northland10 April 13, 2012 at 1:09 pm #

    It does come down to the simple issue. When Birthers ask why his BC has not been presented in a court or to a legal authority, they miss the simple, no court or legal authority have actually requested it.

  56. avatar
    JPotter April 13, 2012 at 2:04 pm #

    The Magic M: So yes, birthers have always been third-dimensionally challenged.

    So, when they ponder the various images of the LFBC, they feel like I do when contemplating Klein bottles and hypercubes on the weekend? ;)

  57. avatar
    Thomas Brown April 13, 2012 at 3:16 pm #

    justlw: “Do some pushups, maybe it’ll go away!”

    You guys are nothing but a pack of cards.

  58. avatar
    JPotter April 13, 2012 at 3:36 pm #

    I was just editing some PDFs here at the birth certificate factory ( ;) ) … has anyone pointed out to the birthers that Acrobat calls its text editor the “Typewriter”? Heh. And text typed by the user “typewritten text”?

  59. avatar
    y_p_w April 13, 2012 at 3:40 pm #

    Northland10: It does come down to the simple issue. When Birthers ask why his BC has not been presented in a court or to a legal authority, they miss the simple, no court or legal authority have actually requested it.

    There are only a few cases where only a birth certificate is an acceptable document for a legal authority. I can be useful to get a passport, but once you get a passport, they can be renewed indefinitely by providing another passport. And as a visitor here once stated, it used to be possible to get a passport with only a “hospital birth certficate” until there were increased cases of fraudulent once circulating.

    Once you have a passport, that can be used to get all sorts of other documents, including a SSN card, driver license, etc. About the only organization that pretty much only accepts birth certificates is Little League Baseball, and they’ll make exceptions to accept other proof of age from passports or other documents.

    I don’t think I’ve ever had my birth certificate used for any official purpose since I was an infant. I had other legal documents including my passport that indicated age and legal status in the US.

  60. avatar
    Paper April 13, 2012 at 6:04 pm #

    Not for me. I use the original crayon version as reference for all my truths.

    traderjack:

    We do not know that the typewriter has variations in the horizontal spacing, we think it has such variation based upon what we believe is accurate information.But the information we are basing our truths on, is what is claimed to be a forgery.

  61. avatar
    The Magic M April 13, 2012 at 6:31 pm #

    JPotter: So, when they ponder the various images of the LFBC, they feel like I do when contemplating Klein bottles and hypercubes on the weekend?

    Bah, four-dimensional stuff is so easy. And so is visualizing a lifted curve in a tangent bundle over a compact manifold.
    I’m currently trying to visualize 11 dimensions so I can finally understand string theory. ;)
    (Disclaimer: I’ve got a master’s degree in maths, though I’ve never had to use it in a real fight. People at work usually come to me when they’ve forgotten some elementary trigonometry. *sigh*)

  62. avatar
    Scientist April 13, 2012 at 6:47 pm #

    All this discussion of the birth certificate is very nice, but we should remember an aphorism that is taught to every first year medical student- “When you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras”. In the medical context this means that you will read of many rare and exotic diseases during your time in medical school. However, in the clinic, you should not begin to entertain those diagnoses until you have ruled out the common ailments that would be expected in a population such as you are caring for.

    As applied to the President’s birth it means: when a couple, especially the mother, llves in Hawaii before and after a child’s birth, one must first conclusively eliminate the most likely possiblity-birth in Hawaii, before entertaining elaborate, totally unsupported theories about births elsewhere and conspiracies involving all of humankind except for 50 people. And, so far, there is not a shred of evidence that the President was not born in Hawaii. Even if someone is unwilling to accept the copious evidence that he WAS born there, Hawaii remains the default birthplace until some other one is proven.

  63. avatar
    Hoofing It April 13, 2012 at 7:52 pm #

    Lies are the hoof beats of politicians.

    So when a politician does what no other has done since the founding of this country (shown everyone their birth certificate), the default diagnosis is the birth certificate is forged.

    See? birther logic on 1% hydrocortisone (the hard stuff). ;-}

    Scientist:
    “When youhear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras”.In the medical contextthis means that you will read of many rare and exotic diseases during your time in medical school.However, in the clinic, you should not begin to entertain those diagnoses until you have ruled out the common ailments that would be expected in a population such as you are caring for.

  64. avatar
    Scientist April 13, 2012 at 8:10 pm #

    Hoofing It: Lies are the hoof beats of politicians.

    There is no evidence that politiicians lie at any greater frequency than anyone else. You are showing confirmation bias.

    Hoofing It: So when a politician does what no other has done since the founding of this country (shown everyone their birth certificate), the default diagnosis is the birth certificate is forged.

    I don’t follow the logic. Personallly, I didn’t think Obama should have ever shown any birth certifiicate ever, including the COLB. But how does showing it make the defaullt forgery? By definiition, the default on ALL documents is that they are real and the default on where people are born is where their parents lived and where they say theu were born, because 99.999% of people are born where they say they were and certainly that is true when their parents lived there.

  65. avatar
    J. Potter April 13, 2012 at 8:37 pm #

    traderjack: We do not know that the typewriter has variations in the horizontal spacing, we think it has such variation based upon what we believe is accurate information. But the information we are basing our truths on, is what is claimed to be a forgery.

    The idea that manual typewriters have play in striking is not based on any particular image or document, but on the entire history of type, and, most importantly, on direct personal experience with typewriters.

    Your invented, nihilistic contradictions are flimsy. Put more effort into’em, please.

  66. avatar
    Hoofing It April 13, 2012 at 9:02 pm #

    I even put in the wink after calling 1% hydrocortisone the hard stuff!

    That was a step by-step guide to birther logic. Of course, *you* don’t follow it. It’s nonsense. They start from a premise that seems oh so true, in an unexamined way, but allows for disbelievers to be sneered at (as in: oh? you don’t think politicians lie? Really? Really?). Thus, having secured their premise with the scientific method (as understood by third graders), they can thus armor their argument with the unassailability of their logic, and rest assured that anyone questioning their logic has ulterior (conspiratorial) motives.

    Scientist: There is no evidence that politiicians lie at any greater frequency than anyone else.You are showing confirmation bias.

    I don’t follow the logic.Personallly, I didn’t think Obama should have ever shown any birth certifiicate ever, including the COLB. But how does showing it make the defaullt forgery?By definiition, the default on ALL documents is that they are real and the defaulton where people are born is where their parents lived and where they say theu were born, because 99.999% of people are born where they say they were and certainly that istrue when their parents lived there.

  67. avatar
    Sef April 13, 2012 at 9:14 pm #

    traderjack: We do not know that the typewriter has variations in the horizontal spacing

    Have you proven that they were not using an IBM Selectric? After all, it was introduced on July 31, 1961. Plenty of time to get one out to HI by Aug 4. Maybe they were a demo site & had an early model with all the bells and whistles and oodles of typeballs. Better check it out.

  68. avatar
    Sef April 13, 2012 at 9:17 pm #

    Sef: Have you proven that they were not using an IBM Selectric? After all, it was introduced on July 31, 1961. Plenty of time to get one out to HI by Aug 4. Maybe they were a demo site & had an early model with all the bells and whistles and oodles of typeballs. Better check it out.

    Also have you excluded the Varityper?

  69. avatar
    traderjack April 13, 2012 at 9:54 pm #

    Northland10: If you start from the assumption that is a forgery, you will most likely only find your supposed “evidence” that it is a forgery. Since a few grifters claim it, and you want to believe it therefore, nothing else is possible. Welcome to the wonderful world of prejudice (i.e. you have pre-judged the document).Now, I assume you will next say that, “well, the Obots are prejudging that it is not forged.” There is likely some truth to that but, since Hawaii has stated that he was born there and they indeed sent the birth certificate to him, the list of initial evidence is already in existence.The list of your initial evidence was, you don’t like him.It is not that you can’t handle the truth but that you and the Birthers do not want the truth. Enjoy your anger and delusion, for in the end, it is all you will have.

    Hawaii can not say he was born there as all they have is a birth certificate on record.

    They can not and will not say that the information in the birth certificate is accurate, only that the information was filed in the records.and what they have produced is a copy or abstract of that information.

  70. avatar
    misha April 13, 2012 at 10:05 pm #

    traderjack: Hawaiican not say he was born thereas all they have is a birth certificate on record. Theycan not and will not say that the information in the birth certificate is accurate, only that the information was filed in the records.and what they have produced is a copy or abstract of that
    information.

    Notify the FBI, and stop sitting around.

  71. avatar
    Sef April 13, 2012 at 10:05 pm #

    traderjack: Hawaii can not say he was born there as all they have is a birth certificate on record.

    “I can’t prove I was born, but you can’t deny I’m here.” — W. Rogers

  72. avatar
    misha April 13, 2012 at 10:24 pm #

    traderjack: Hawaii can not say he was born there as all they have is a birth certificate on record. They can not and will not say that the information in the birth certificate is accurate, only that the information was filed in the records.and what they have produced is a copy or abstract of that information.

    You have just accused everyone from the governor down the line, of corruption and perjury. When are you going to notify the FBI, or are you just an armchair warrior?

  73. avatar
    bovril April 13, 2012 at 10:44 pm #

    Yeah yeah Jackie, no one can prove anything, all life is an illusion, we live in the Matrix.

    So tell me, based on YOUR cretinous idiocy how can you prove you were ever born?

    Even if you have living parents, which based upon our own statements of age you don’t, even then anything they say would be at BEST hearsay.

    So…?

  74. avatar
    elmo April 13, 2012 at 10:55 pm #

    traderjack: Hawaiican not say he was born thereas all they have is a birth certificate on record.

    Theycan not and will not say that the information in the birth certificate is accurate, only that the information was filed in the records.and what they have produced is a copy or abstract of that information.

    Except, they did say he was born there.

    http://hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2009/09-063.pdf

  75. avatar
    Jamese777 April 14, 2012 at 12:00 am #

    traderjack: Hawaiican not say he was born thereas all they have is a birth certificate on record.

    Theycan not and will not say that the information in the birth certificate is accurate, only that the information was filed in the records.and what they have produced is a copy or abstract of that information.

    When Hawaii released the two certified copies of President Obama’s long form birth certificate, the state government issued this statement:
    “The Hawai’i State Health Department recently complied with a request by President Barack Obama for certified copies of his original Certificate of Live Birth, which is sometimes referred to in the media as a “long form” birth certificate.
    “We hope that issuing certified copies of the original Certificate of Live Birth to President Obama will end the numerous inquiries related to his birth in Hawai’i,” Hawai’i Health Director Loretta Fuddy said. “I have seen the original records filed at the Department of Health and attest to the authenticity of the certified copies the department provided to the President that further prove the fact that he was born in Hawai’i.”

    So, TraderJack, you are wrong yet again. The state of Hawaii has on several different occasions confirmed that President Obama was born at 7:24 p.m. on Friday, August 4, 1961 at Kapi’olani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital in Honolulu, Hawai’i. The attending physician for his birth was Dr. David A Sinclair, M.D. and his birth was registered with the state of Hawai’i on August 8, 1961. Birth notices appeared in both the Honolulu Star-Bulliten newspaper an the Honolulu Advertiser on August 13th and August 14, 1961.
    http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/News_Release_Birth_Certificate_042711.pdf
    “Health Bureau Statistics:”
    http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/obama-1961-birth-announcement-from-honolulu-advertiser0000.gif
    “Marriage Applications, Births, Deaths:”
    http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/ObamaBirthStarBulletin.jpg

  76. avatar
    J. Potter April 14, 2012 at 12:04 am #

    traderjack: Hawaii can not say he was born there as all they have is a birth certificate on record.

    They can not and will not say that the information in the birth certificate is accurate, only that the information was filed in the records.and what they have produced is a copy or abstract of that information.

    No doubt if his mother was still alive, you’d happily take her word for it? After all, no matter where the birth occurred, she was there, and would definitely know.

    Nah, you’re low enough to call a guy’s mom a liar.

  77. avatar
    Thrifty April 14, 2012 at 12:13 am #

    Do you even understand why records exist? It’s so that you can keep track of vital information without being forced to rely on human memory and oral recollection. This isn’t 5000 BC.

    traderjack: Hawaiican not say he was born thereas all they have is a birth certificate on record.

    Theycan not and will not say that the information in the birth certificate is accurate, only that the information was filed in the records.and what they have produced is a copy or abstract of that information.

  78. avatar
    AnotherBird April 14, 2012 at 1:02 am #

    That is it they came to a conclusion based on a page that is a copy of a page that is obviously not flat. Birthers see conspiracies everywhere.

  79. avatar
    misha April 14, 2012 at 1:05 am #

    AnotherBird: That is it they came to a conclusion based on a page that is a copy of a page

    Here’s what I’ve been looking for
    A genuine copy of a fake Dior
    – Allan Sherman

  80. avatar
    nbc April 14, 2012 at 1:49 am #

    traderjack: Hawaiican not say he was born thereas all they have is a birth certificate on record.

    Except of course that they do say that he was born there. You’re such a tool

  81. avatar
    nbc April 14, 2012 at 1:50 am #

    “We hope that issuing certified copies of the original Certificate of Live Birth to President Obama will end the numerous inquiries related to his birth in Hawai„i,” Hawai„i Health Director Loretta Fuddy said. “I have seen the original records filed at the Department of Health and attest to the authenticity of the certified copies the department provided to the President that further prove the fact that he was born in Hawai„i.”

    Traderjack is so clueless.. and continues to be totally wrong or irrelevant.

  82. avatar
    Keith April 14, 2012 at 2:13 am #

    AnotherBird:
    That is it they came to a conclusion based on a page that is a Certified, TRUE copy of a page that is obviously not flat. Birthers see conspiracies everywhere.

    FIFY

  83. avatar
    traderjack April 14, 2012 at 4:31 am #

    Scientist: All this discussion of the birth certificate is very nice, but we should remember an aphorism that is taught to every first year medical student- “When you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras”. In the medical context this means that you will read of many rare and exotic diseases during your time in medical school. However, in the clinic, you should not begin to entertain those diagnoses until you have ruled out the common ailments that would be expected in a population such as you are caring for.As applied to the President’s birth it means: when a couple, especially the mother, llves in Hawaii before and after a child’s birth, one must first conclusively eliminate the most likely possiblity-birth in Hawaii, before entertaining elaborate, totally unsupported theories about births elsewhere and conspiracies involving all of humankind except for 50 people. And, so far, there is not a shred of evidence that the President was not born in Hawaii. Even if someone is unwilling to accept the copious evidence that he WAS born there, Hawaii remains the default birthplace until some other one is proven.

    And you are probably correct, however, there does appear to be scant evidence of her presence in Hawaii in the 4-5 months prior to the evidence of a birth certificate.

    In fact, I think that is one of the things that bothered most of the “birthers’. Where is the evidence she was in Honolulu during that time. There appears to be no pictures or such evidence and she was not in school

  84. avatar
    Majority Will April 14, 2012 at 7:21 am #

    traderjack: In fact, I think

    No. You don’t. You don’t admit any of the many, many mistakes you have made based on bigotry and hatred.

    You are a bitter, old troll.

    I am disgusted by people pretending to be patriotic. I will be glad when they die off like James von Brunn.

  85. avatar
    Scientist April 14, 2012 at 7:23 am #

    traderjack: And you are probably correct, however, there does appear to be scant evidence of her presence in Hawaii in the 4-5 months prior to the evidence of a birth certificate.
    In fact, I think that is one of the things that bothered most of the “birthers’. Where is the evidence she was in Honolulu during that time. There appears to be no pictures or such evidence and she was not in school

    Have you been through the Dunham family photo albums? This was the pre-cell phone era when taking photos required substantial effort and cost. And the photos were not time/date stamped, so unless someone wrote on the back it would be hard to know when they were taken. And unless a known landmark was shown, how would you know where they were taken?

    In fact, you have things backwards. When someone lives in Hawaii the default position is that they are in Hawaii. The burden is on those who say they were elsewhere to prove their case. Where are the photos or other evidence suggesting she was NOT in Hawaii where she lived and where probability suggests she would have the highest likelihood of being?

    Extraordinary claims require strong evidence. If you tell me you flipped a coin 100 times and got 52 heads, I will happily take your word for it. Tell me you got 95 heads and I will want to examine the coin, see videos, talk to witnesses, etc. For someone who lived in Hawaii, their giving birth in Hawaii is the 52 heads; the travelling halfway round the world is the 95 heads (at least).

    As an aside, I am currently reading “Thinking Fast and Slow” by Nobel Laureate Daniel Kahneman. I heartily recommend it. It explains the errors that the birthers and other cultists make in the clearest possible manner. A brilliant work by a great thinker.

  86. avatar
    Paper April 14, 2012 at 9:31 am #

    I think what bothers most birthers is that Ann Dunham could not even have said that she gave birth to Barack Obama. For that matter, no mother can prove they gave birth to their sons or daughters. All they have are memories. Plus, some have unverifiable documents and photographs and witnesses. But, they wake up, it’s a new day; how can they prove all the yesterdays actually existed? All they have are memories, and some paperwork that proves nothing. Friends and other family members even tell them it is true, but who are they to believe? Where is the proof?

    Even if (in a lame “scientific” effort to connect memory to actual history) the physical changes in a woman’s body is directly linked to childbirth, still, how can they say their child wasn’t switched at birth?

    After all he paperwork is parsed, this is what concerns most birthers, is it not? None of us Obots can prove the real Barack wasn’t switched at birth with a foreign-born sleeper agent.

    QED.

    Or as we used to say around the laboratory at moments of profoundest insight: XYZ PDQ.

    traderjack: And you are probably correct, however, there does appear to be scant evidence of her presence in Hawaii in the 4-5 months prior to the evidence of abirth certificate.

    In fact, I think that is one of the things that bothered most of the “birthers’.Where is the evidence she was in Honolulu during that time.There appears to be no pictures or such evidence and she was not in school

    traderjack: Hawaiican not say he was born thereas all they have is a birth certificate on record.

    Theycan not and will not say that the information in the birth certificate is accurate, only that the information was filed in the records.and what they have produced is a copy or abstract of that information.

  87. avatar
    Tarrant April 14, 2012 at 9:51 am #

    traderjack: And you are probably correct, however, there does appear to be scant evidence of her presence in Hawaii in the 4-5 months prior to the evidence of abirth certificate.

    In fact, I think that is one of the things that bothered most of the “birthers’.Where is the evidence she was in Honolulu during that time.There appears to be no pictures or such evidence and she was not in school

    I lived in California from the time I was 2 until I was 9. I can’t give you one shred of hard evidence of it. Maybe my mother saved a report card in a scrapbook, but certainly not all of them during that time. The only people I saw with any regularity that I would have any idea how to contact today are a friend from the era, Keith (who I haven’t spoken to in years and should contact as I miss our intellectual discussions), one senile aunt, and my father. Even then one could claim that they can’t conclusively say things about any specific one month period.

    Then I moved to Arizona for 10 years. There’s perhaps two additional people I could contact about those years, and maybe a few pictures. My father still lives there. Perhaps my high school still has my records.

    After that it becomes easier – I have college friends I still speak to and post-PhD my employer can easily say that I’ve showed up.

    But the reality is few people could give hard evidence for every month of their life when they were young. But it’s logical to assume they continued to be where they lived unless real evidence is available of them being somewhere else.

  88. avatar
    bovril April 14, 2012 at 10:11 am #

    So,

    Based on Jackie’s ideas’s and since he is drawing Social Security and filing taxes under a name that he cannnot prove is his, then ipso facto Jackie is a lying, thieving criminal

  89. avatar
    Northland10 April 14, 2012 at 10:54 am #

    traderjack: And you are probably correct, however, there does appear to be scant evidence of her presence in Hawaii in the 4-5 months prior to the evidence of a birth certificate.

    And zero evidence she was anywhere else. Scant is still larger than zero.

    There is also zero evidence you care anything about the facts or truth (not scant but zero). Given the constant moving of goalposts in ways that would make some Birthers blush, I am figuring you care little about the issue but you are here to troll and be a general pest. On this, you appear to be succeeding.

  90. avatar
    Majority Will April 14, 2012 at 12:16 pm #

    Northland10: And zero evidence she was anywhere else.Scant is still larger than zero.

    There is also zero evidence you care anything about the facts or truth (not scant but zero).Given the constant moving of goalposts in ways that would make some Birthers blush, I am figuring you care little about the issue but you are here to troll and be a general pest.On this, you appear to be succeeding.

    The stench of lonely, old, racist idiot is the birther’s cologne of choice.

  91. avatar
    JD Reed April 14, 2012 at 12:29 pm #

    “They can not and WILL NOT say that the information in the birth certificate is accurate, only that the information was filed in the records.and what they have produced is a copy or abstract of that information.” (emp[hasis added to highliught what Hawaiian officials defdnitely did day)

    TraderJack, it just amazes me that someone will assert something that is demonstrably false to people, such as this blog’s readers and contributors, who know for certain that it is false. You’re like a 3-year-old who breaks a vase in front of his mother’s eyes, then vehemently denies to her that he did it.

  92. avatar
    SluggoJD April 14, 2012 at 1:50 pm #

    traderjack: And you are probably correct, however, there does appear to be scant evidence of her presence in Hawaii in the 4-5 months prior to the evidence of abirth certificate.

    In fact, I think that is one of the things that bothered most of the “birthers’.Where is the evidence she was in Honolulu during that time.There appears to be no pictures or such evidence and she was not in school

    Please post photos of your mom giving birth to you, or else just stfu you racist slime.

  93. avatar
    John Reilly April 14, 2012 at 3:24 pm #

    Tradeejack, what bothers most of the birthers is that there is a Black man in the White House.

  94. avatar
    Northland10 April 14, 2012 at 5:36 pm #

    JD Reed: You’re like a 3-year-old who breaks a vase in front of his mother’s eyes, then vehemently denies to her that he did it.

    Brilliant!!

  95. avatar
    Rickey April 14, 2012 at 5:55 pm #

    J. Potter: No doubt if his mother was still alive, you’d happily take her word for it? After all, no matter where the birth occurred, she was there, and would definitely know.

    Nah, you’re low enough to call a guy’s mom a liar.

    We have seen birthers who were low enough to call McCain’s mother a liar. Some of them insisted that he was born in a civilian hospital even though she remembers being in the base hospital and hearing people singing in the Officer’s Club.

  96. avatar
    traderjack April 14, 2012 at 7:38 pm #

    It is not my concern as to whether or not Hawaii said he was born there as all they know is what we know.

    Someone filed a birth certificate that was filled out and put in the records of Hawaii.

    Now you, in you infinite wisdom, have come to the conclusion that the birth records are 100% accurate, and would never have false information on them.

    You ignore, in your infinite ability to ignore facts, that the Hawaiian birth records are not infallible, as they provide for correction and amendment to said document, that the HDOH permits and authorizes the issuance of fake birth certificates at the request of governmental agencies, that the HDOH authorizes the issuance of new birth certificates for the adopted, and the HDOH had a system that allowed born out of county/state birth certificates to be issued to persons born out of state,

    Somewhere in you biased minds you have managed to convince yourself that your belief is so accurate that all of these possibilities could not have happened to the magic BC of Obama, the Leader of Hope and Change.

    Spewing vitrolic statements is a sign of a weak mind , unable to articulate your beliefs and desires in a manner that could be easily understood.

    To cheer you all up ,and give you some more to ruminate about, chew your cud on this.

    Orly has file RICO against a number of people.

    She may be crazy, insane, nuts, but she does perservere in her beliefs!

    [338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.

    (b) Proof of legal residency shall be submitted to the director of health in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate. The director of health may also adopt any rules pursuant to chapter 91 that he or she may deem necessary or proper to prevent fraudulent applications for birth certificates and to require any further information or proof of events necessary for completion of a birth certificate.

    (c) The fee for each application for registration shall be established by rule adopted pursuant to chapter 91. [L 1982, c 182, 1]

    Ah, but that is only the law , that is not what happens, is it?

  97. avatar
    gorefan April 14, 2012 at 7:41 pm #

    traderjack: Someone filed a birth certificate that was filled out and put in the records of Hawaii.

    You could substitute any state in the union for Hawaii in that statement. Are you saying that all birth certificates in the United States are meaningless?

  98. avatar
    gorefan April 14, 2012 at 7:49 pm #

    traderjack: [L 1982, c 182, 1]

    The L 1982 ius the year the law was written. It didn’t exist before that date.

    Ruminate on that.

  99. avatar
    Scientist April 14, 2012 at 7:51 pm #

    traderjack: You ignore, in your infinite ability to ignore facts, that the Hawaiian birth records are not infallible, as they provide for correction and amendment to said document, that the HDOH permits and authorizes the issuance of fake birth certificates at the request of governmental agencies, that the HDOH authorizes the issuance of new birth certificates for the adopted, and the HDOH had a system that allowed born out of county/state birth certificates to be issued to persons born out of state,

    Got evidence to support any of those? Didn’t think so.

    Anyway, I don’t need to believe in Hawaiian law. I have the laws of probability that say babies are born where their mother lives at a probabliliity of 99.9999%. That is WAYYY beyond any reasonable doubt.

    Chew on THAT, pal….

  100. avatar
    Rickey April 14, 2012 at 8:02 pm #

    traderjack:

    Ah, but that is only the law , that is not what happens, is it?

    When Hawaii issues a birth certificate to someone who was not born in Hawaii, the birth certificate does not say that the person was born in Hawaii. It lists the actual place of birth.

    When Hawaii amends a birth certificate, the amended birth certificate says “Amended” on it.

    If Obama had not been born in Hawaii, he could not have been issued a Hawaii birth certificate in 1961, as Hawaii law made no provision for it then.

    traderjack:

    Orly has file RICO against a number of people.

    She may be crazy, insane, nuts, but she does perservere in her beliefs!

    Crazy people do tend to persevere in their beliefs. However, mental health experts do not regard that as a good thing.

  101. avatar
    Scientist April 14, 2012 at 8:18 pm #

    By the way, using birth certificates to determine presidential eligibility violates the Constitution, since they didn’t have them in 1788. How did they determine where someone was born in 1788? They assumed the birth took place at the parents’ home.

    Chew on that jack….

  102. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater April 14, 2012 at 8:39 pm #

    gorefan: The L 1982 ius the year the law was written.It didn’t exist before that date.

    Ruminate on that.

    He was told this on the amazon boards. He knows what he’s saying is a lie but continues to say it anyway

  103. avatar
    Northland10 April 14, 2012 at 8:55 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: He was told this on the amazon boards.He knows what he’s saying is a lie but continues to say it anyway

    And so, we are back to JD Reed’s comment:

    JD Reed: You’re like a 3-year-old who breaks a vase in front of his mother’s eyes, then vehemently denies to her that he did it.

  104. avatar
    J. Potter April 14, 2012 at 11:06 pm #

    traderjack: Spewing vitrolic statements is a sign of a weak mind , unable to articulate your beliefs and desires in a manner that could be easily understood.

    Indeed.

    traderjack: Orly has file RICO against a number of people.

    Been donating to Taitz, again, Troller Jack? Guess what? Orly isn’t a prosecutor. She can’t file charges against anyone! She can file frivolous, redundant exercises in legal harassment in civil courts until the legal system finally tires of her, but, thanksully, her heart’s desire—to play judge, jury, and lead prosecutor in a mad kangaroo court—is simply beyond her grasp.

    Thanks for confirming, again, the bias, pessimism, and ignorance you have burdened yourself with.

  105. avatar
    Paper April 15, 2012 at 12:13 am #

    It doesn’t matter if they are not 100% accurate. That is a false measure. People can strive hard to be accurate, but what in life is 100% accurate all the time? If it is wrong and you can’t show it is wrong, that means it is right, for all legal purposes. Life needs to move on, and society and governments certainly need to not get stuck on nonsense.

    The answer is it is good enough, and where it isn’t, deal with that when it isn’t.

    If you can’t show Obama was born anywhere else, then it doesn’t matter that you think the Hawaii birth certificate has some chance of being wrong. No one will ever take that seriously. Life doesn’t work that way.

    traderjack: Now you, in you infinite wisdom, have come to the conclusion that the birth records are 100% accurate, and would never have false information on them.

  106. avatar
    JD Reed April 15, 2012 at 12:22 am #

    Oh, Trader, why do you keep looking into the wrong end of the telescope? You imply that because humans aren’t 100 percent perfect, and it’s possible for the DoH to have made a mistake on Mr. Obama’s birth records, that you have built a case of probable cause to suspect his records are erroneous. But the default is clearly on the side of the info’s being accurate, surely by 99 percent-plus. And if they’re wrong, it’s up to someone to prove they’re wrong, by what standard, I’m not sure, but most likely at least by clear and convincing evidence. You’re nowhere near there yet.
    As for brnging up the law that authorized the state of Hawaii to issue birth documents to people norn outside the state, a couple of additions to the fact that hte law was passed in 1982:
    1. The DoH says that such a document lists the actual place of birth, for anyone born out of state. Else by law, Hawaii would be creating fraudulent documents. Birthers have insisted tthat contrary to the DoH’s assertion the law authorized the state to issue born-in-Hawaii documents to people the oH knows were born outside the state.
    2. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, Jack. If this were indeed the law and the practice, don’t you thinnk a sizable number of people would have availed themselves? But as far as the record shows,such instances are still as scarce as unicorns.
    Powerful proof, that.

  107. avatar
    Majority Will April 15, 2012 at 4:44 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater:
    gorefan: The L 1982 ius the year the law was written.It didn’t exist before that date.

    Ruminate on that.

    He was told this on the amazon boards. He knows what he’s saying is a lie but continues to say it anyway

    That’s despicable and pathetic.

  108. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 15, 2012 at 12:05 pm #

    Having worked for decades on vital records information systems, I can tell you that they are not 100% accurate. And having worked on fraud prevention for vital records process engineering I know that there is fraud in vital records.

    From that experience, I also know the indicators for fraud and that Barack Obama’s certificate lacks them, specifically that it is not late registration and that it was not a home birth.

    However, what you and the rest of the birthers are consistently doing online and in the various lawsuits is to try to shift the burden of proof from the challenger to the candidate. You are the one arguing against the status quo, and you have been totally ineffective in making that argument. Every birther lawsuit says “Obama hasn’t proven” and while I would disagree, still he doesn’t have to. The birthers haven’t proven and cannot prove and that’s why they’re wasting their time.

    traderjack: It is not my concern as to whether or not Hawaii said he was born there as all they know is what we know.

    Someone filed a birth certificate that was filled out and put in the records of Hawaii.

    Now you, in you infinite wisdom, have come to the conclusion that the birth records are 100% accurate, and would never have false information on them.

  109. avatar
    Arthur April 15, 2012 at 12:42 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Every birther lawsuit says “Obama hasn’t proven”

    Which really means, “He hasn’t proven to me,” and which really, really means, “I wouldn’t believe him no matter what proves.”

  110. avatar
    SluggoJD April 15, 2012 at 1:35 pm #

    traderjack:
    It is not my concern as to whether or not Hawaii said he was born there as all they know is what we know.

    Someone filed a birth certificate that was filled out and put in the records of Hawaii.

    Now you, in you infinite wisdom…You ignore, in your infinite ability…Somewhere in you biased minds…Spewing vitrolic statements…

    LOL you turd, you really think using words like “infinite” and “biased” at the beginning of your paragraphs gives you some sort of sleight-of-hand boost in morality and ethics, compared to reality-based folks?

    I bet that sentence went right over your racist, inferior little mind, too.

    We get it. You hate black and brown people, but don’t have the courage to come right out and say it, so you craft BS instead.

    We get it.

  111. avatar
    traderjack April 16, 2012 at 1:29 am #

    I do not hate black and brown people, I was born in the Phillipines, had friends in Hawaii, lived in San Diego and in high school had friends that were Mexican, there were no blacks in my High School, but there where when I worked for the state, and I had friend that were black who were my subordinates ,and my superiors, and played tennis with blacks mexicans and asians.

    I hate no one!

    I don’t like individuals, but don’t blame their race for their failings.

    Some people are junk and some are good.

  112. avatar
    J. Potter April 16, 2012 at 2:21 am #

    traderjack: Some people are junk and some are good.

    A reasonable position on the subject of typewriters.

    Mine is 50 years old, and quite good. I recent a column today, writer of which assessed his despite as junk, despite being only 40 years old.

    So which category would you place the typewriters possessed by HDOH in, say, 1961?

  113. avatar
    James M April 16, 2012 at 10:52 am #

    traderjack:
    I do not hate black and brown people,I was born in the Phillipines,had friends in Hawaii, lived in San Diego and in high school had friends that were Mexican, there were no blacks in my High School, but there where when I worked for the state, and I had friend that were black who were my subordinates ,and my superiors, and played tennis with blacks mexicans and asians.

    I hate no one!

    I don’t like individuals, but don’t blame their race for their failings.

    Some people are junk and some are good.

    You are not the first person to try to deny that they are racists by making intensely racially motivated statements.

    I don’t know if you are driven by hate, but you are driven by something other than logic, when it comes to President Obama. I’m actually leaning toward you simply being a contrarian, and that if we weren’t here defending the President, you wouldn’t be here attacking him. You are attempting to be a funhouse mirror.

  114. avatar
    James M April 16, 2012 at 10:53 am #

    traderjack:

    Ah, but that is only the law , that is not what happens, is it?

    Showing that a system is not infallible is not the same thing as demonstrating that it failed in some particular instance.

  115. avatar
    Rickey April 16, 2012 at 11:51 am #

    traderjack:
    I do not hate black and brown people,I was born in the Phillipines,had friends in Hawaii, lived in San Diego and in high school had friends that were Mexican, there were no blacks in my High School, but there where when I worked for the state, and I had friend that were black who were my subordinates ,and my superiors, and played tennis with blacks mexicans and asians.

    That’s the second time you have said that you were born in the Philippines and the second time you have misspelled it.

    It is spelled PHILIPPINES, not Phillipines.

    Maybe you should let us see your birth certificate.

    .

  116. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 16, 2012 at 12:19 pm #

    Rickey: That’s the second time you have said that you were born in the Philippines and the second time you have misspelled it. It is spelled PHILIPPINES, not Phillipines. Maybe you should let us see your birth certificate..

    Jack has been asked to prove his birth status before on Amazon he’ll just change the subject.

  117. avatar
    Rickey April 16, 2012 at 12:42 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Jack has been asked to prove his birth status before on Amazon he’ll just change the subject.

    One would think that by now he would have learned to spell the country of his birth, but then poor spelling appears to be endemic among birthers.

  118. avatar
    Northland10 April 16, 2012 at 1:12 pm #

    I understand. It must be upsetting that people think you are racist because birthers can be , and some really are, racist. It is probably unfair to assume that, because you could be racist does not mean you, specifically, are. It would probably be better if to have specific evidence about your racism, don’t you think.

    traderjack:
    I do not hate black and brown people,I was born in the Phillipines,had friends in Hawaii, lived in San Diego and in high school had friends that were Mexican, there were no blacks in my High School, but there where when I worked for the state, and I had friend that were black who were my subordinates ,and my superiors, and played tennis with blacks mexicans and asians.

    I hate no one!

    I don’t like individuals, but don’t blame their race for their failings.

    Some people are junk and some are good.

  119. avatar
    Keith April 17, 2012 at 12:01 am #

    Northland10: It would probably be better if to have specific evidence about your racism, don’t you think.

    I see what you did there.

  120. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 17, 2012 at 3:36 am #

    I have updated this article with additional analysis and illustrations. It has also been reorganized for clarity.

  121. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 17, 2012 at 3:44 am #

    This is certainly plausible and one possibility that I considered. However, there is no real indication of two typewriters in the first place, and so it’s not necessary to complicate the explanation.

    Mary Adams: During slow periods it is very likely that they would fill in parts like the hospital name, city, county etc – things that will be the same for all births at that hospital, so that if they get slammed with births, all they have to do is fill in the stuff specific to that one baby. We do this kind of thing all the time in hospitals ’cause when it rains, it pours.

  122. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 17, 2012 at 4:33 am #

    Go right ahead.

    traderjack: All that playing around moving things leads to the same concerns!

    why not just grid the darn think and see if they all fit in the same grids.

  123. avatar
    The Magic M April 17, 2012 at 4:55 am #

    Rickey: poor spelling appears to be endemic among birthers

    Even more striking (and possibly a real symptom of ODS) is their widespread inability to handle homonyms. They constantly mix up sight/site/cite, dual/duel, martial/Marshall, sense/since etc. I hardly ever see this on any other type of websites, but on birther sites, it abounds. Another possible explanation is that there are only a handful of paid birthers who post under dozens of identities. (Would make sense since (*g*) they claim Obots are doing that and we all know how much projection there is behind birtherism.)

  124. avatar
    Keith April 17, 2012 at 5:34 am #

    The Magic M: Another possible explanation is that there are only a handful of paid birthers who post under dozens of identities

    Another possible explanation is that they are all 12 years old.

  125. avatar
    The Magic M April 17, 2012 at 6:03 am #

    The Magic M: They constantly mix up sight/site/cite, dual/duel, martial/Marshall, sense/since

    Not to mention they’re/their, you’re/your and its/it’s.

    Keith: Another possible explanation is that they are all 12 years old.

    No 12-year-old would find enough amusement in this to stick to the issue for more than 5 minutes.
    However, at least the ALL CAPS WRITERS appear to be 60+ years of age.
    And not forgetting that special subgroup that Capitalizes Every Word They Write. I don’t know where that comes from, maybe from trying to read like the Constitution or (sub)consciously associating themselves with the writing style from the Founders’ time?

  126. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 17, 2012 at 6:25 am #

    Having many such problems myself (in drafts) it might be advanced age rather than youth that’s the cause.

    Keith: Another possible explanation is that they are all 12 years old.

  127. avatar
    The Magic M April 17, 2012 at 9:41 am #

    I’ve been to many forums, including some with a high average age, never seen such an amalgamation of said issues as in birther contexts. So I don’t think it’s age alone that is responsible for this “condition”.

    I occasionally make such mistakes myself (and I’m still a far cry from 50), but usually correct myself before posting.

  128. avatar
    bovril April 17, 2012 at 10:56 am #

    Based upon both the writings. self identification via posts and the turn outs at the varying Birther get togethers, the general demographic is….

    60+
    White
    Blue collar
    Republican
    Evangelical or other strong Christian identity
    Retired/fixed income
    Not technically strong
    Gullible

    Strongest feelings

    Fear and loathing of anything and anyone not the same as themselves
    Bigotry
    Suspicious and fearful of government
    Strong feeling of entitlement to the exclusion of others (Hands off my SS, Hands of my Medicare etc), lots of ME and MINE and little WE and OUR
    Old/Traditional = Good, New/Different = Bad
    Paranoia
    Exclusionary

  129. avatar
    justlw April 17, 2012 at 1:52 pm #

    I observe that the proto- “typewriter story” — the alleged Bush Texas Air National Guard memos — has resurfaced, with a new article in Texas Monthly.

    Author covers some of the ground that’s been gone over here, pointing out that there actually were typewriters in that era that could do proportional spacing and superscripts.

    However, I think Kevin Drum at Mother Jones has it right when he points out (again: as people also have here), that just because such typewriters existed doesn’t mean the Texas ANG would have ‘em, and in fact they didn’t.

    I’m of the opinion, given just how much the memos looked like they were done in Word, and the overall hinkiness of their supposed origin, that they were indeed a forgery.

    But I also think it’s clear Bush flaked out on his term of service. The one interesting thing in the new article is the author’s conjecture why: that Bush had to deal with a community service gig based on some conviction that has been thoroughly swept under the rug.

    I’m still somewhat ambivalent on whether or not this was a Rove-ian trap that Dan Rather and his producer walked right into. I certainly wouldn’t rule it out.

  130. avatar
    Sef April 17, 2012 at 3:44 pm #

    bovril:
    Based upon both the writings. self identification via posts and the turn outs at the varying Birther get togethers, the general demographic is….

    60+
    White
    Blue collar
    Republican
    Evangelical or other strong Christian identity
    Retired/fixed income
    Not technically strong
    Gullible

    Strongest feelings

    Fear and loathing of anything and anyone not the same as themselves
    Bigotry
    Suspicious and fearful of government
    Strong feeling of entitlement to the exclusion of others (Hands off my SS, Hands of my Medicare etc), lots of ME and MINE and little WE and OUR
    Old/Traditional = Good, New/Different = Bad
    Paranoia
    Exclusionary

    D**n! I only got 1 point out of 14.

  131. avatar
    Sef April 17, 2012 at 3:45 pm #

    Sef: D**n! I only got 1 point out of 14.

    Sorry, 2 pts.