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Birthers doubt Doc FOIA response

Well this is interesting. I conclusively proved that the Cold Case Posse showed a 1968 vital statistics manual in one of their videos, claiming it was from 1961. This was proven by links to copies of the 1968 manual on a government web site.

However, I further showed an FOIA response I received last year which is the real 1961 data specification. Now a birther is questioning the veracity of that document. Well if they question Barack Obama’s birth certificate, verified by the State of Hawaii, I suppose one should expect them to pick at my document. Heck, it might even have layers! I hope the birthers forensic document experts will spend a few weeks working on that!

Long term, it’s trivial to verify my document. Just file a FOIA with DHS and you might even mention my request number 11-00673. However, there were some specific objections (in italics), and I will answer those now.

  1. I am quoted as saying: “In 1961 Hawaii, for the first time, participated in the National Center of Health Statistics statistical report on births, 1961 Vital Statistics of the US – Volume 1: Natality (VSUS).” The objection is that Hawaii also participated in 1960; therefore, I’m not credible. Well, I’m not infallible, and in this case I was wrong. When I am wrong, I correct my mistakes as I have this inconsequential one made last March.
  2. Dr. Conspiracy claims to have obtained through a freedom of information request, (sic) it gives separate coding categories for Aleut, Eskimo, Filipino, Hawaiian and Part-Hawaiian, supposedly used in 1960 and 1961. The 1960 Natality Report says that those classifications were simply lumped together as “other races.” IOW, they wern’t (sic) coded separately. However, the VSUS doesn’t say that they weren’t coded separately, but that they were statistically reported together. Computers are really good at adding numbers. This objection is nonsense.
  3. The 1961 Report specifically says: “Births in the United States in 1961 are classified for vital statistics into white, Negro, American Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Aleut, Eskimo, Hawaiian and Part-Hawaiian (combined), and “other nonwhite. Dr. Conspiracy’s alleged coding document doesn’t allow for Hawaiian and Part-Hawaiian to be combined.” Of course, this rather proves the problem with the Cold Case Posse report. The 1961 federal report shows separate tabulations (in a footnote) for Eskimo and Aleut, which is impossible with Zullo’s video code set which doesn’t distinguish between them. To this specific objection, a computer can combine two codes into one; it just can’t turn one into two. This objection is nonsense.
  4. The heading on Dr. Conspiracy’s alleged document refers to a “Vital Statistics Programming Branch” … after a google search for this exact phrase, the only results go to Dr. Conspiracy’s site. As for the other organization, the “Division of Data Processing” … this wasn’t formed until 1963 according to a booklet on the history of the National Center for Health Statistics:

    “Effective in September 1963, NCHS was reorganized, with the Division of Vital Statistics becoming one of five operating divisions. This reorganization separated support activities, such as data processing and publication activities, from the substantive vital statistics program operations.”

    Odd that the 1961 VSUS (link above) says: “In conjunction with national estimates prepared by the Nation Office of Vital Statistics (the National Statistics Division since 1961)…” page 5-4. As for why the Google doesn’t list the “Vital Statistics Programming Branch” I cannot say, except to mention that the 1961 manuals aren’t on the Internet to be found by a search engine.

I have this web site to attest to my integrity and honesty, and without those, I am wasting my time. While I can document many things and do, there are some things that you just have to take on trust or not as you see fit. You only have my word for the FOIA document (that and any internal proof you find in it). To be doubted by a birther places me in good company.

I suppose I could have published the FOIA cover letter I got, not that such things cannot be faked. Here it is. Sorry it’s a little blurry but that is because of the circular object that I put in front of it on the scanner to obscure my address. Insiders will know what that yellow thing is and how it adds to my credibility. Not just anyone has one of those in his drawer. Click to enlarge.

FOIA Cover 11-006730001

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241 Responses to Birthers doubt Doc FOIA response

  1. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG July 19, 2012 at 6:18 pm #

    Doc, if you produce a document saying that breathing is necessary for human survival, the birther problem will take care of itself.

  2. avatar
    Scientist July 19, 2012 at 6:32 pm #

    Doc, this nitpickimg plays into the birther’s hands. The big picture is that the President was born in Hawaii. That is discernable even if birth certificates had never been invented or all Hawaiian records washed away in a tsunami. His parents lived in Hawaii and there is no evidence they went anywhere else around the time of his birth. Therefore, birth in Hawaii is the only possibility unless and until someone proves biirth elsewhere.

    Don’t get caught in their spider webs of intrigue.

  3. avatar
    Chef July 19, 2012 at 6:36 pm #

    When O gives Arpaio the paper document this will all be solved, and no more electrons will have to sacrifice their lives for this site.

    Greenly.

  4. avatar
    BillTheCat July 19, 2012 at 6:45 pm #

    Proves for the 1,345,627,00th time that birthers and their ilk will NEVER be satisfied, EVER. It’s all about goalpost moving. But they aren’t racist or bigots, nope nope. Just concerned for all of us!

  5. avatar
    charo July 19, 2012 at 6:54 pm #

    http://myveryownpointofview.wordpress.com/

    Does It Exist? The 1961 Vital Stat Instruction Manual

    Interesting- reference to “not stated” code

  6. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 6:55 pm #

    I ran across your site. Interesting argument as is the opposite point of view. I tore apart the BC doc a year ago and there are so many weird anomolies that I asked myself. Why not bring the document out at the press conference and show it under a live cam. Apparently, according to the defense of the hidden curled back portion, the claim is, it was scanned from a bound book. Really? Then the curl would have gone all the way to the edge. The pages behind that one would have prevented that from happening. The only way for that to happen is if it were not bound. Those codes that are hidden on the left are intentional without a doubt and if they were scanned from a bound book. It was not in the hands of Obama. When someone requests a BC, they receive a hard paper copy. Remember the few people who claim to have seen it and even scanned it? You expect us to believe same layers have multiple pixel sizes and the 1 in the record number is color while the rest is in black and white there are lots of pencil codes to deal with. The pencil code 9 does not match up in any document manual as African, yet that is the word written in English on the page. I doubt he was born here, because of BC, SSN and draft registration. But, the American people deserve him for voting him into office. What is sad – is that people are calling northers idiots when there are so many red flags.

  7. avatar
    john July 19, 2012 at 6:59 pm #

    Dr. Corsi has stated that they were able to get the 1961 Code book after months of inquiry. Doc C. never got the code book. It appears his FOIA is conflict of what is really in the 1961 Code Book that Doc C. doesn’t have but apparently the COLD Case Posse has. Doc C. also make the following cautions on his previous article which brings into questionthe veracity of his claims.

    Limitations of the methodology

    There are a number of cautions that should be stated prior to decoding the data from the form:

    We do not have any documentation from the State of Hawaii as to what instructions were given to form coders in 1961, and whether such instructions were consistent with NCHS documentation.
    We do not know that coding done on every birth certificate conformed to official instructions; that is, people make mistakes.
    We do not know whether the keying instructions provided to the states conforms to the final tape layout of the national file. We know, for example, that New York’s race data was re-coded by the NCHS before inclusion in the national tape (discussion of this later).
    We do not know if more detailed instructions from the NCHS for coders found in Parts II-a and II-b of the Vital Statistics Instruction Manual would change our interpretation and use of the NTFUS.

    This was clearly up with the Cold Case Posse contacting Verna Lee to confirm their suspicions about the codes.

  8. avatar
    Scientist July 19, 2012 at 7:06 pm #

    Yon: I doubt he was born here, because of BC, SSN and draft registration.

    Where was he born? Can you give me a coherent story and some evidence? Otherwise, who cares?

    Yon: But, the American people deserve him for voting him into office.

    Yes, actually that is true. The people are entitled to elect whom they choose. Should Romney release more tax returns? Don’t you think that what someone did as an adult 5 years ago is at least as important as where someone was born (which they have no control over)?

    Yon: What is sad – is that people are calling northers idiots when there are so many red flags.

    What is a norther?

  9. avatar
    Graham Shevlin July 19, 2012 at 7:09 pm #

    Yon, the burden of proof rests with you, not the President. Get working on that compelling evidence, then go and get a court date. Bear in mind that the current state-level score is 0-138 against opponents of eligibility.

  10. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 7:16 pm #

    Those arguments you give are very hypocritical and sad. I am all for Romney ( who I dont really like either ) releasing all of his tax forms, and everything else. I would also like Obama to release his college transcripts and everything else. I am curious why his publist claimed he was born in Lenya until 2007. It sure ain’t a typo. All these things should be open to the public since all of our politicians our crookes. I am an independent. I don’t have to prove anything to anyone to believe he wasn’t born here. Do I? It is my belief and it is alright with me if you don’t agree.

  11. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 7:21 pm #

    What is the deal with you guys messing up scanned documents. The date contrast is out of sync with the letter and that funny graphic hides the direct link.

  12. avatar
    Scientist July 19, 2012 at 7:24 pm #

    Yon: I am curious why his publist claimed he was born in Lenya until 2007. It sure ain’t a typo

    Where is Lenya? Are you sure that isn’t a typo? How sure?

    Yon: I am all for Romney ( who I dont really like either ) releasing all of his tax forms, and everything else.

    Everything else being what? No one can possibly release “everything else”. I don’t have that receipt from dinner in 1986. Sorry. The fact is that every candidate in recent history has released 10 years of tax returns, including Romney Sr. So that is a reasonable request. No candidates have released transcripts, so that isn’t.

    So, that is neither hypocriticall nor sad, but fair and balanced. I’ll tell you what, though-if Romney releases transcripts and 10 years of taxes, then Obama should release transcripts. How does that grab you? I am a fair-minded guy,

    Yon: I don’t have to prove anything to anyone to believe he wasn’t born here. Do I? It is my belief and it is alright with me if you don’t agree.

    Sure, you can believe what you want. But let me ask, what evidence do you have that Romney was born here?

  13. avatar
    Jim July 19, 2012 at 7:25 pm #

    Yon:
    All these things should be open to the public since all of our politicians our crooks.

    Well, that’s why you are given a single vote. If you don’t like the info that the politician gives you, you are free to vote for someone else. But here’s a question for you…should a candidate be required to drop his pants and prove whether or not he’s been circumcised as was being required by the State of Arizona at one time?

  14. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 7:28 pm #

    I am really confused why and organization that was formed in 1992 would have the document you claim from 1961. Where did the get them from?

  15. avatar
    Majority Will July 19, 2012 at 7:32 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG:
    Doc, if you produce a document saying that breathing is necessary for human survival, the birther problem will take care of itself.

    Brilliant!

  16. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 7:34 pm #

    Jim, Scientist your responses are really sad. You speak out of two sides of your mouth. Romney needs to give 12 years of tax returns, but Obama should not have to drop his pants. You go to extremes, the right does as well. You follow the pattern of our divider president and our do nothing congress. Neither they or you seem to be capable of a rational fair argument.

  17. avatar
    Majority Will July 19, 2012 at 7:34 pm #

    Chef:
    When O gives Arpaio the paper document this will all be solved, and no more electrons will have to sacrifice their lives for this site.

    Greenly.

    Arpaio’s indictment hand delivered? Nice touch.

  18. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 7:36 pm #

    Why don’t you put something over you adress and scan it again, in focus?

  19. avatar
    richCares July 19, 2012 at 7:37 pm #

    “I am curious why his publist claimed he was born in Lenya until 2007”
    .
    I don’t know where Lenya is but that bio was for a book that was never published so it just languished out there till some birther, like you, noticed it. Latch on to it as that’s all you got!

  20. avatar
    misha July 19, 2012 at 7:38 pm #

    Scientist: Where is Lenya?

    It’s right next to Threenesia:

    Threenesia Declares Independence
    http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s3i39832

  21. avatar
    Majority Will July 19, 2012 at 7:39 pm #

    Yon: Those arguments you give are very hypocritical and sad. I

    You’re funny too. Can you prove where you were born?

  22. avatar
    charo July 19, 2012 at 7:40 pm #

    Jim: Well, that’s why you are given a single vote.If you don’t like the info that the politician gives you, you are free to vote for someone else.But here’s a question for you…should a candidate be required to drop his pants and prove whether or not he’s been circumcised as was being required by the State of Arizona at one time?

    Well, not exactly.

    THE BILL:

    A certified copy of the presidential candidate’s long form birth certificate that includes at least the date and place of birth, the names of the hospital and the attending physician, if applicable, and signatures of any witnesses in attendance. If the candidate does not possess a long form birth certificate as required by this paragraph, the candidate may attach two or more of the following documents that shall take the place of the long form birth certificate if the candidate swears to their authenticity and validity and the documents contain enough information for the secretary of state to determine if the candidate meets the requirements prescribed in article II, section 1, constitution of the United States:

    (a) Early baptismal or circumcision certificate.

    (b) Hospital birth record.

    (c) Postpartum medical record for the mother or child signed by the doctor or midwife or the person who delivered or examined the child after birth.

    (d) Early census record.

    Still overly stringent and on the side of ridiculousness, but not what you claim. My son was circumcised in the hospital, and I don’t know if I ever got a certificate; it’s probably only found as a medical record. I should get a hold of it now in case he ever runs for President.

  23. avatar
    Paper July 19, 2012 at 7:41 pm #

    All this debate has got me worried. I’m beginning to think I wasn’t born here. All I’ve got is what my parents told me and this worthless birth certificate.

  24. avatar
    Xyxox July 19, 2012 at 7:43 pm #

    I know the Birfoons spew madness, but their posts are very entertaining and are the main reason I come here.

  25. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 7:45 pm #

    Yes, as a matter of fact. I do have a BC right out of the national archives in hard paper form, several original documents from the original Army field hospital in Berlin. Both my parents were citizens and married according to the law in 1963. I was the first boy, so there are several funny rewards from the miltary and to boot I have a real draft registration with the full date 19xx and two valid SSN numbers that can be referenced in a database.

  26. avatar
    Jim July 19, 2012 at 7:46 pm #

    Yon:
    Jim, Scientist your responses are really sad.You speak out of two sides of your mouth. Romney needs to give 12 years of tax returns, but Obama should not have to drop his pants. You go to extremes, the right does as well. You follow the pattern of our divider president and our do nothing congress.Neither they or you seem to be capable of a rational fair argument.

    Actually, I’m just proving a point…that you agree with. That there are and should be limits to what we expect a candidate to do and show. And, those expectation should be the same for ALL the candidates. So, what were Romney’s grades like in College? Oh wait, he hasn’t released them either. In fact, iirc, no candidate has ever released their College transcripts. So, what we basically have is the candidates make decisions on how much info they want to give the voter, and the voters decide if they have given enough to merit their votes. It’s actually a pretty nice system. Back when I first started voting in the 70’s, tax returns were not provided by the candidates. Nor did I really care. Nowadays, they are a big thing. And, pressure for Romney to release his will continue until Romney finally does release them or lose votes because of his secrecy.

  27. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 19, 2012 at 7:46 pm #

    Yon: I would also like Obama to release his college transcripts and everything else. I am curious why his publist claimed he was born in Lenya until 2007. It sure ain’t a typo

    Of course. No one ever makes a typo.

  28. avatar
    charo July 19, 2012 at 7:47 pm #

    Yon: Romney needs to give 12 years of tax returns, but Obama should not have to drop his pants.

    Yon,

    I think that needs a little rephrasing.

  29. avatar
    Scientist July 19, 2012 at 7:49 pm #

    Yon: Jim, Scientist your responses are really sad. You speak out of two sides of your mouth. Romney needs to give 12 years of tax returns, but Obama should not have to drop his pants.

    No, Obama has released 12 years of taxes. What is your ratiionale why Romney shouldn’t? You have none. That is what is sad. Romney’s birth certificate was cut off at the bottom and said “VOID” yet you have no criticism of it. But let a pencil mark be astray on Obama’s and it’s a calamity of epic proportions. That is sad.

    Yon = sad

  30. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 19, 2012 at 7:51 pm #

    Yon: am really confused why and organization that was formed in 1992 would have the document you claim from 1961. Where did the get them from?

    What organization are you talking about?

  31. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 7:51 pm #

    I would note. I lost my BC after I started work where I work, but Obama himself signed a law that I had to prove I was born here to keep working. I thought it was redicolous at the time, so I think he should have to do the same. Bring a hard paper copy to an SSN official and have it thoroughly inspected. When his ssn pops up.

    I am typing this from an iPhone, so the mistakes are great. I am a PC guy.

  32. avatar
    Majority Will July 19, 2012 at 7:51 pm #

    Yon:
    Yes, as a matter of fact. I do have a BC right out of the national archives in hard paper form, several original documents from the original Army field hospital in Berlin. Both my parents were citizens and married according to the law in 1963. I was the first boy, so there are several funny rewards from the miltary and to boot I have a real draft registration with the full date 19xx and two valid SSN numbers that can be referenced in a database.

    Great. Can you prove it? Talk is cheap.

  33. avatar
    john July 19, 2012 at 7:54 pm #

    Romney can produce his Tax Returns when Obama produces his college records.
    Quid pro quo Obama!

  34. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 19, 2012 at 7:54 pm #

    You mean Health and Human Services? In 1960 the National Office of Vital Statistics was
    merged with the National Health Survey to establish the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS). The NCHS in 1961 was a part of the Department of Health Education and Welfare, and today it is part of the Department of Health and Human Services. Knowing that the NCHS is part of the CDC, that’s where I went first and was referred to DHHS, their parent agency, to file the FOIA.

    Yon: I am really confused why and organization that was formed in 1992 would have the document you claim from 1961. Where did the get them from?

  35. avatar
    misha July 19, 2012 at 7:54 pm #

    Yon: Neither they or you seem to be capable of a rational fair argument.

    Not true. I have attended the Argument Clinic:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

  36. avatar
    Scientist July 19, 2012 at 7:56 pm #

    .

    Yon: two valid SSN numbers that can be referenced in a database

    I’m sorry, TWO SSNs? How do you have TWO? By the way, the President had only ONE and it was valid. He worked and filed taxes with it for 30 years. He has a new one now because birthers leaked it all over the intertubes.

  37. avatar
    Graham Shevlin July 19, 2012 at 7:56 pm #

    Yon, here are some tips for you if you intend to stick around:

    1. Learn the facts behind the debate
    As I stated in an earlier message, the burden of proof rests with people who do not believe that Barack Obama is eligible to be the POTUS. You can believe what you like, but guess what? Obama is going to be on the ballot this Fall, he was confirmed in 2008, sworn in and is the current POTUS. You don’t get to alter reality because YOU think differently.

    2.. Don’t recycle BS from other sources.
    The “born in Kenya” meme has been undercut already by the author of the pamphlet in question, who has stated publicly that it was a typo. If you come in here and try recycling nonsense like that, you will be eviscerated and ridiculed in short order. We are used to recycled BS, and like original BS, it just gets smellier over time.

    3. Don’t talk about typos without spell-checking your own words
    It makes you look like a fool, and opens you to ridicule, as I am sure you have noticed.

    4. Create an argument
    One of the reasons that you are being mocked here is because you have failed to assemble even a semblance of an argument thus far. As a general rule, having heard just about every cockanamie weird-shit story about why the POTUS is a usurper, we are well-used to nonsense, and we will rip you a new one for it. Give us something interesting to chew on and you will at least get a hearing. Unlike a number of sites run by other folks, Doc does not toss people who disagree with the prevailing view, unless they are major-league jerks.

  38. avatar
    Jim July 19, 2012 at 7:56 pm #

    charo:

    Still overly stringent and on the side of ridiculousness, but not what you claim.My son was circumcised in the hospital, and I don’t know if I ever got a certificate; it’s probably only found as a medical record.I should get a hold of it now in case he ever runs for President.

    Hehehe…yeah I was being a little ridiculous to make a point. Although, there were folks calling for him to prove he was circumcised and basically demand that he drop his drawers for them.

    Yon:
    Yes, as a matter of fact. I do have a BC right out of the national archives in hard paper form,

    Is it your original BC? Issued in what year, if you don’t mind me asking.

  39. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 7:56 pm #

    I mean the CDC see sig.

  40. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 7:58 pm #

    I can prove it, but that would be a real dumb thing to do on the Internet. Nice try

  41. avatar
    donna July 19, 2012 at 7:58 pm #

    Yon: I would also like Obama to release his college transcripts and everything else. I am curious why his publist claimed he was born in Lenya [sic] until 2007.

    WHY?

    have you read what she said about that

    let’s see

    obama was a client of that firm

    the pamphlet was created in 1991 AFTER obama had given interviews in 1990

    From the New York Times (which uses real fact checkers), February 5, 1990:

    The new president of the [Harvard Law] Review is Barack Obama, a 28-year-old graduate of Columbia University who spent four years heading a community development program for poor blacks on Chicago’s South Side before enrolling in law school. His late father, Barack Obama, was a finance minister in Kenya and his mother, Ann Dunham, is an American anthropologist now doing fieldwork in Indonesia. Mr. Obama was BORN IN HAWAII.

    1990 latimes:

    Barack Obama’s Law : Personality: Harvard Law Review’s first black president plans a life of public service. His multicultural background gives him unique perspective.

    Born in Hawaii, where his parents met in college …..

    http://articles.latimes.com/1990-03-12/n

    1990 chicago tribune

    Activist In Chicago Now Heads Harvard Law Review

    Born in Hawaii to the late Barack Obama …..

    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1990-

    so in birtherstan, obama told people in 1990 (and before) that he was born in hawaii but then, a year later, “he told” a publicist that he was born in kenya and then in his book (in 2005) he wrote that he was born in hawaii??????

    the “publicist” said she NEVER SPOKE with obama

  42. avatar
    richCares July 19, 2012 at 8:01 pm #

    The codes in question neither support nor refute allegations of forgery. Only Hawaii can say if one of their BC’s is a forgery and they have already said that it is valid, that it is not a forgery. done deal!

  43. avatar
    misha July 19, 2012 at 8:03 pm #

    Yon: I am a PC guy.

    And I am the walrus. Goo goo g’joob.

  44. avatar
    Scientist July 19, 2012 at 8:03 pm #

    Yon: I can prove it, but that would be a real dumb thing to do on the Internet. Nice try

    Maybe it would be a dumb thing for Obama to release some stuff on the internet too….

  45. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 8:07 pm #

    Let me correct myself. No one can prove much of anything. The BC issue could be compared to the looking at the book of Isaiah and reading the Taylor prism. One person will say that is proof that it happened that way in 700 bc and another will find another document that refutes it. Even the the two writers were opposing enemies and had no reason to agree. We don’t prove anything anywhere. It is a matter of agreed upon belief systems. I believe he was born elsewhere based on the arguments. The only thing that would remove him from office is not a minority belief system, but a majority believe system. Neither one of those systems were present the day Obama was born.

  46. avatar
    misha July 19, 2012 at 8:07 pm #

    Yon:
    I can prove it, but that would be a real dumb thing to do on the Internet. Nice try

    Here’s my actual BC to prove it.

  47. avatar
    Majority Will July 19, 2012 at 8:08 pm #

    Yon:
    I can prove it, but that would be a real dumb thing to do on the Internet. Nice try

    I don’t believe a word you’ve posted. You could easily be a foreign spy.

  48. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 8:13 pm #

    Wait. Who set the standard of 12 years of taxes? Obama not Romney have anything to hide legally since the IRS is not chasing them. Romney has been on a private payroll. While Obama got his off the taxpayers back all his life. There is nothing personal in Obama’s tax records. It is an unfair comparison and there is no law regarding how many a canidate should release. Therefore the demand for 12 years can be likened to dropping your pants.

  49. avatar
    Scientist July 19, 2012 at 8:14 pm #

    Yon: I believe he was born elsewhere based on the arguments.

    Whare is elsewhere? Near Lenya? Do you have a story regarding the birth? Why did his mother travel? How did she finance the trip? What papers did she use to bring the baby into the US?

  50. avatar
    BillTheCat July 19, 2012 at 8:14 pm #

    Wow Doc you really have them coming out of the woodwork here 🙂

  51. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 19, 2012 at 8:17 pm #

    Part of the problem is that you don’t understand what you’re looking at.

    The Birth Certificate original is in a bound volume in Hawaii. The Hawaii Department of Health copied it onto security paper, then added the impressed seal and Dr. Onaka’s signature stamp to certify the copy (two copies actually). The edges are curved, of course, because it wasn’t removed from the volume. The security paper is not curved because it is the paper stock used for printing, not a part of the original certificate (which is never on security paper because security paper is designed not to copy well). Those certified copies were transported by Obama’s attorney from Honolulu to Washington where one of the certified copies was scanned into a PDF document put on the White House web site, and photocopied in higher resolution to hand out to the press.

    The actual certified copy was also available at the Press Conference because the NBC News White House correspondent, Savannah Guthrie, took a picture of it and said that she “felt the raised seal.” However, the press didn’t take any video of it.

    Pencil code “9” does match up with African; the Cold Case Posse lied about the 1961 codes, showing a chart from 1968 and calling it 1961. (This is documented in my article http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/07/code-9-the-cold-case-posses-big-lie/ .)

    As for the scanning characteristics you mentioned, I got the same results scanning my birth certificate. it would have a signature with half in the bitmap layer and half in the colored layer and there were multiple one-bit layers.

    The red flags all point to birther misrepresentations and incompetence. I’ve been studying this for 3 and a half years, and believe me, it’s all junk

    And as to the Selective Service registration, would you explain to us exactly why the Bush Administration would release a forged Selective Service form AND computer record for Obama under FOIA in 2008? The Cold Case Posse analysis, is pure bunk technically. I have an article on it if you are interested, or buy Woodman’s book:

    http://www.obamabirthbook.com/get-obama-birth-certificate-book/

    Yon: I ran across your site. Interesting argument as is the opposite point of view. I tore apart the BC doc a year ago and there are so many weird anomolies (sic) that I asked myself. Why not bring the document out at the press conference and show it under a live cam. Apparently, according to the defense of the hidden curled back portion, the claim is, it was scanned from a bound book. Really? Then the curl would have gone all the way to the edge. The pages behind that one would have prevented that from happening. The only way for that to happen is if it were not bound. Those codes that are hidden on the left are intentional without a doubt and if they were scanned from a bound book. It was not in the hands of Obama. When someone requests a BC, they receive a hard paper copy. Remember the few people who claim to have seen it and even scanned it? You expect us to believe same layers have multiple pixel sizes and the 1 in the record number is color while the rest is in black and white there are lots of pencil codes to deal with. The pencil code 9 does not match up in any document manual as African, yet that is the word written in English on the page. I doubt he was born here, because of BC, SSN and draft registration. But, the American people deserve him for voting him into office. What is sad – is that people are calling northers idiots when there are so many red flags.

  52. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 8:17 pm #

    Scientist. According to selective service and other databases the conn number that starts with 042 is invalid

    I have two because my mom applied for one, then they lost the paper work and after she applied for the next one I got another. I get two statements but only use one. The same happened to my grandson.

  53. avatar
    Scientist July 19, 2012 at 8:18 pm #

    Yon: Wait. Who set the standard of 12 years of taxes?

    George Romney, among others.

    Yon: Romney has been on a private payroll. While Obama got his off the taxpayers back all his life

    Actually, before he was elected to the Illinois Senate, Obama worked for a law firm and taught at a private university (The U of Chicago). And Romney was Governor of MA.

    Yon: there is no law regarding how many a canidate should release

    Nor is there a law about releasing a birth certificate.

    Logic and consistency are not your strong suit.

  54. avatar
    donna July 19, 2012 at 8:20 pm #

    Yon: Who set the standard of 12 years of taxes?

    george romney, mitt’s father, released 12 years of returns and said: “One year could be a fluke, perhaps done for show”

    mitt gave 23 YEARS of returns to mccain when he was being vetted for VP

  55. avatar
    Not Birther John July 19, 2012 at 8:21 pm #

    Hey, I’ll bet dollars to donuts I know where and when the Birther wrote up and posted his disputes with Dr C….. I was the one arguing with him……

    John

  56. avatar
    Majority Will July 19, 2012 at 8:25 pm #

    Yon: there is no law regarding how many a canidate should release

    You just blew up a perfectly good irony meter.

    “No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”

    Point out the part that requires a candidate to release any personal documents, privately or publicly, including a birth certificate.

    Take your time.

  57. avatar
    DP July 19, 2012 at 8:28 pm #

    Yon:
    Let me correct myself. No one can prove much of anything. The BC issue could be compared to the looking at the book of Isaiah and reading the Taylor prism. One person will say that is proof that it happened that way in 700 bc and another will find another document that refutes it. Even the the two writers were opposing enemies and had no reason to agree. We don’t prove anything anywhere. It is a matter of agreed upon belief systems.I believe he was bornelsewhere based on the arguments. The only thing that would remove him from office is not a minority belief system, but a majority believe system. Neither one of those systems were present the day Obama was born.

    That’s simply deranged.

    In this case, the official state government has stated what its record say, provided a copy of said records, and verified the authenticity of the information multiple times. Sane people understand that to represent a factual confirmation from reality. The “belief” of any one individual is irrelevant to the dicussion. Otherwise, nothing any official entity created to maintain records on any subject said could be taken as meaning anything.

    You obviously don’t like Obama’s policies. Fair enough. But you’ve strayed into the common flaw of thinking that spouting birther gibberish strengthens your arguments. It actually discredits them. For example, state that you don’t like Obama’s tax policy. There are valid subpoints to support such an opinion. Correctly stated in a rational manner, they give you credibility. No birther nonsense is needed.

    But add in the birther gibberish, and you’re simply a racist or a fool. Or both.

  58. avatar
    Majority Will July 19, 2012 at 8:28 pm #

    donna:
    Yon: Who set the standard of 12 years of taxes?

    george romney, mitt’s father, released 12 years of returns andsaid: “One year could be a fluke, perhaps done for show”

    mitt gave 23 YEARS of returns to mccain when he was being vetted for VP

    My favorite recent quote:

    (excerpt) Why pick Palin, not Romney, as a running mate?

    “Oh come on, because we thought Sarah Palin was the better candidate,” John McCain told reporters Tuesday. “Why did we not take Pawlenty, why did we not take any of the other 10 other people. Why didn’t I? Because we had a better candidate, the same way with all the others.”

    (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/post/sarah-palin-was-the-better-choice-says-mccain/2012/07/17/gJQAxWhorW_blog.html)

  59. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 8:30 pm #

    Dr. How could you study Obama’s bc for 3.5 years when it has not been out that long?

    Where is think link to the picture taken of the cert copy with the raised seal? Show me that cause that would make me believe the BC is authentic for sure.

    As for calling names, ect to everyone and my typos. I explained what I was typing on and you know darn well what I mean. If you wish to sway anyone’s belief, then don’t be a turn off with the picking and calling people birthers. I myself can’t stand many of the birther arguments, but that said I can’t stand those who are driven by hate.

  60. avatar
    Xyxox July 19, 2012 at 8:30 pm #

    Scientist:
    Actually, before he was elected to the Illinois Senate, Obama worked for a law firm and taught at a private university (The U of Chicago).And Romney was Governor of MA.

    He also received residual income from Dreams from My Father and generated more income from The Audacity of Hope than he did from his income as a US Senator.

  61. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 19, 2012 at 8:32 pm #

    Site traffic was way up yesterday, 3,153 different folks came by and on average read 5 pages. The percentage of new visitors was up as well from a typical 30% to 60%. The Arpaio press conference has sent a few people scurrying for information.

    It’s good for birthers to get away from birther blogs now and again.

    BillTheCat:
    Wow Doc you really have them coming out of the woodwork here :)

  62. avatar
    john July 19, 2012 at 8:35 pm #

    “Only Hawaii can say if one of their BC’s is a forgery and they have already said that it is valid, that it is not a forgery. done deal!”

    The problem with this that Hawaii has offered no proof that what they saying is true. Are we to accept their word? No way! We want to see the BC. Hawaii has stonewalled at virtually every opportunity to bring this matter to resolution. in fact, Hawaii has spent a small fortune trying to keeping Obama’s records locked up tighter than Fort Knox. What is Hawaii hiding?

  63. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 8:35 pm #

    No a father is able to force a standard on the son? There is no agreed upon standards by the party or law, so you have no right to demand him giving out to people who are irrationally setting standards

  64. avatar
    Scientist July 19, 2012 at 8:35 pm #

    Yon: Scientist. According to selective service and other databases the conn number that starts with 042 is invalid

    As I said, they gave him a new one after birthers leaked the original one.

    Yon: I have two because my mom applied for one, then they lost the paper work and after she applied for the next one I got another. I get two statements but only use one. The same happened to my grandson.

    Frankly, that is a very dubious story. Yet you have the chutzpah (look it up) to talk about Obama. I don’t see how having 2 SSNs is legal, whether or not you use both. I am forwarding this to Sherriff Joe for his immediate investigation.

  65. avatar
    Xyxox July 19, 2012 at 8:36 pm #

    Yon:
    Dr. How could you study Obama’s bc for 3.5 years when it has not been out that long?

    Barack Obama first released a copy of his Certificate of Live Birth via Daily Kos on June 12, 2008.

    That’s more than four years ago, skippy.

    That document had the raised seal and the signature of Onaka on the back. That document is what is required to receive a passport. I know, the DHS refused to accept my original birth certificate and required me to get a Certificate of Live Birth from Maryland when I applied for a passport.

  66. avatar
    Paper July 19, 2012 at 8:37 pm #

    Obama released his birth certificate in June 2008. That is how.

    Yon:
    Dr. How could you study Obama’s bc for 3.5 years when it has not been out that long?

  67. avatar
    Scientist July 19, 2012 at 8:38 pm #

    Yon: There is no agreed upon standards by the party or law, so you have no right to demand him giving out to people who are irrationally setting standards

    And what right does anyone have to demand a birth certificate?

  68. avatar
    Majority Will July 19, 2012 at 8:41 pm #

    Yon: you have no right to demand him giving out to people who are irrationally setting standards

    Correct. The President is under no obligation to satisfy the doubts of every citizen.

    Birthers and other political enemies are irrationally setting non-existent standards.

    I’m glad you understand.

  69. avatar
    Xyxox July 19, 2012 at 8:44 pm #

    Yon:
    No a father is able to force a standard on the son? There is no agreed upon standards by the party or law, so you have no right to demand him giving out to people who are irrationally setting standards

    HAHAHA, yes, there is no legal requirement that he turn over his tax returns, just like there is no legal requirement that voters not take into account the fact that he’s hiding something in his tax returns.

  70. avatar
    Northland10 July 19, 2012 at 8:45 pm #

    Scientist: What is a norther?

    Hello?

  71. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 19, 2012 at 8:47 pm #

    Birthers picked at Obama’s first birth certificate in June of 2008. I’m only skimming comments, and am not aware of what you are typing on. Even birthers use the word “birther.” Try not to be so sensitive; it sounds like an appeal for pity.

    Yon: Dr. How could you study Obama’s bc for 3.5 years when it has not been out that long?

  72. avatar
    Northland10 July 19, 2012 at 8:49 pm #

    john:
    Romney can produce his Tax Returns when Obama produces his college records.
    Quid pro quo Obama!

    Since Obama has already released multiple times more info than Romney, John, you are not asking quid pro quo, you are asking, Show your papers, boy!!!.

    Sorry John, your behavior here is nothing more than vile and un-American.

  73. avatar
    Graham Shevlin July 19, 2012 at 8:50 pm #

    Yon, you are failing to understand the arguments and legal reality once again. There is NOTHING in any presidential eligibility requirement regulation or ruling that requires a presidential candidate to have a valid Social Security number. NOTHING.
    This is what I meant in point 1 of my previous message (Learn The Facts). This is another non-argument. It is totally irrelevant.

  74. avatar
    Xyxox July 19, 2012 at 8:52 pm #

    Hey Doc, DailyKos cites you on the debunking of the penciled numbers!

  75. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 19, 2012 at 8:55 pm #

    OK. Here it is:

    http://lockerz.com/s/96540937

    You have to zoom it. The top of the seal is at the number labeling block “21”.

    Yon: Where is think link to the picture taken of the cert copy with the raised seal? Show me that cause that would make me believe the BC is authentic for sure.

  76. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 8:56 pm #

    Graham, you are incorrect. A person who is employed, pays taxes with an invalid SSN is guilty of a felony and therefore, it is a requirement.

  77. avatar
    Stanislaw July 19, 2012 at 9:04 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    OK. Here it is:

    http://lockerz.com/s/96540937

    You have to zoom it. The top of the seal is at the number labeling block “21″.

    If this convinces you, you’re gonna make me feel really odd.

    Somehow I doubt that’s going to be enough for our latest birther visitor. He’ll probably want a pony as well.

  78. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 9:05 pm #

    Doc, ok, so you mean the short form. The long form since April 2011.

    As far as pity. You misunderstand where I am coming from. I am 49. I tell people what I think and it is up to them to hold a rational argument with resorting to name calling. I differ from birthed because they want to remove Obama from office. Like I said, America gets wait she deserves. It is a form of mob rule and I don’t think we will last as long as the Roman Republic. It just won’t happen. So knowing the future of our Republic, it just does not matter who is in office. I am curious about both sides arguments only from the perspective of understaing how history repeats itself and world history.

    Meanwhile, I appeal to both sides to speak respectfully to each other, because otherwise it only speeds up the fall. I have children and grandchildren.

  79. avatar
    Stanislaw July 19, 2012 at 9:07 pm #

    Yon:
    I myself can’t stand many of the birther arguments, but that said I can’t stand those who are driven by hate.

    *blinks eyes in disbelief*

  80. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 19, 2012 at 9:10 pm #

    Yon: I mean the CDC see sig.

    It would help if you used the quote back feature so people know who you are responding to.

    If you are responding to my question then you might want to consider that the predecessor organizations to the Centers go back to 1943.

    You might consider checking with Mr. Google before you say silly things.

  81. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 19, 2012 at 9:12 pm #

    Yon: Wait. Who set the standard of 12 years of taxes?

    Actually I believe Romney’s father did it.

  82. avatar
    Scientist July 19, 2012 at 9:13 pm #

    Yon: It is a form of mob rule and I don’t think we will last as long as the Roman Republic.

    If not the voters, which group of elite poobahs should pick the President? Iceland is the world’s oldest democracy and has survived since about 900 or so. The Iroquois had a good functioning democracy from around 1100 until the present.

  83. avatar
    Majority Will July 19, 2012 at 9:14 pm #

    Yon:
    Graham, you are incorrect. A person who is employed, pays taxes with an invalid SSN is guilty of a felony and therefore, it is a requirement.

    You missed Graham’s point entirely. And your understanding of U.S. law and how the IRS works is just bizarre.

    Are you accusing the President of identity theft? Is he impersonating Barack Hussein Obama II?

  84. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 19, 2012 at 9:15 pm #

    Yon: Scientist. According to selective service and other databases the conn number that starts with 042 is invalid

    Selective Service validates Social Security Numbers? Really? Your source for that would be….???

  85. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 19, 2012 at 9:21 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: You have to zoom it. The top of the seal is at the number labeling block “21″

    Here’s another source with more pictures and a better shot of the raised seal:

    http://www.barack-obama-photos.com/Obama-Birth-Certificate-Photos.html

  86. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 9:32 pm #

    Doc. Dang! That is not was I was hoping to see.

    I see what resembles a seal that is half way out of the BC itself. Bottom left. Correct? That is a serious error and there is no initial or date with it. Compare it with this BC with the whole seal on the actual bc.

    http://omgq.com/13.jpg

  87. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 9:36 pm #

    Will, are you smoking dope? That is the argument I was using. There is no requirement.

  88. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 9:44 pm #

    Doc, darn. Really, I liked your initial argument, but now you have shown me one more thing wrong with the forgery.

    I wish you happiness, peace and all that good stuff. I also wish both sides will be kind to one another and look at things with an open mind. I may come back here again on day to check things out. Interesting debate.

  89. avatar
    DP July 19, 2012 at 9:48 pm #

    john:
    “Only Hawaii can say if one of their BC’s is a forgery and they have already said that it is valid, that it is not a forgery. done deal!”

    The problem with this that Hawaii has offered no proof that what they saying is true.Are we to accept their word?No way!We want to see the BC.Hawaii has stonewalled at virtually every opportunity to bring this matter to resolution.in fact, Hawaii has spent a small fortune trying to keeping Obama’s records locked up tighter than Fort Knox.What is Hawaii hiding?

    This is simply retarded. The state of Hawaii is the official record keeper of vital statistics in Hawaii. As such, its statements are definitive in a court of law. State documents, even the dreaded COLB, are legal documents accepted as fact in a court of law. State verifications of their own data are accepted as fact in a court of law.

    The burden of proof is on you, John. State records are not cast into doubt simply because ignorant fools blather about them. And no one cares about your desire to see documents you are not legally entitled to see.

  90. avatar
    Jim July 19, 2012 at 9:50 pm #

    Yon:
    Doc, ok, so you mean the short form. The long form since April 2011.

    As far as pity. You misunderstand where I am coming from. I am 49. I tell people what I think and it is up to them to hold a rational argument with resorting to name calling.

    Well, then you’ll have to forgive everyone here. Because, we’ve been listening to what people who don’t want President Obama in the White House have been saying for almost 4 years and when you strip away all the amateurish forensics, the misstatement of laws, the outright lies of fact, and total lack of honest debate that they’ve thrown at us, you can see why we may be a little short with another person coming on here and basically saying that the President is lying and he isn’t who he says he is when there is a boatload of evidence that he was born in Hawaii and not ONE SINGLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE he was born anywhere else. If you are truly interested in the truth, it’s all right here and at John Woodman’s site: http://www.obamabirthbook.com/

    These 2 sites debunk ALL the lies, crazy theories, and outright crazy made-up facts that have been brought up against the President. Now, if you’re an honest person, you’d be pissed at people who straight up lie to you like Sheriff Arpaio, Jerome Corsi, and Mario Apuzzo have done. If, on the other hand, you refuse to read what is basically almost 3 books worth of facts, laws, and history that debunks all the birther talking points, then don’t go away mad…just go away.

    And, if you were willing to do the comparison of what proof is there that the President is eligible against the total lack of any evidence that he’s not, you’ll see exactly why EVERYONE in Congress won’t even touch it.

  91. avatar
    Xyxox July 19, 2012 at 9:53 pm #

    Yon:
    Will, are you smoking dope? That is the argument I was using. There is no requirement.

    This from the birfoon demanding civility.

  92. avatar
    Northland10 July 19, 2012 at 9:54 pm #

    Majority Will: Are you accusing the President of identity theft? Is he impersonating Barack Hussein Obama II?

    Steve Dunham has stolen his identity because it would be easier to run for president as a black man with a funny name whose father was from Kenya. It’s very simple and logical.

  93. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 9:57 pm #

    One more thing. I don’t see a talkback feature on the iPhone.

    The bizarre comments about what I said and did not say are just plain silly. I never demanded a BC. I never even followed the subject until the long form BC was released and the I downloaded it, looked at all the prices Of every layer and the embedded code myself. That is the day I became interested.

    I never said anything about Obama’s tax policies. This comes from reading the word IRS and making wild assumptions.

    Perhaps some of you should go back, read everything I wrote and not add to it.

    The reference to the picture with state seal outside the bc area of the paper just gave me more reason to suspect it is a forgery.

  94. avatar
    Andy July 19, 2012 at 10:00 pm #

    Yon:

    The reference to the picture with state seal outside the bc area of the paper just gave me more reason to suspect it is a forgery.

    How many BCs have you seen that were printed on larger, more modern security paper? There isn’t a requirement that the seal be in any specific location, especially since Hawaii doesn’t issue LFBCs anymore. So why would that make you suspicious?

  95. avatar
    Paper July 19, 2012 at 10:05 pm #

    Just checked my own b.c. The seal is on the bottom right, well outside of what you are calling the bc area of the paper. There are no initials, just a signature and stamped date, very similar to the image in the link Dr. C just provide to you.

    Yon:

    The reference to the picture with state seal outside the bc area of the paper just gave me more reason to suspect it is a forgery.

  96. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 10:11 pm #

    No paper. The perforated punch out clearly shown that is curled back on the left is the BC the paper outside the perforation is not part of the BC. Show me a picture that has a seal that is not on the BC and I will believe it is possible.

  97. avatar
    OllieOxenFree July 19, 2012 at 10:14 pm #

    Yon

    Care to show us the “seal” on the recently released Romney certificate? If you cannot produce that, then should we assume that the document is a forgery as well?

  98. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 10:16 pm #

    XY, you will notice I asked. It it a question of an expression. I did not say he was a Bafoon as a statement or say he was smoking dope, high or anything else.

  99. avatar
    Paper July 19, 2012 at 10:21 pm #

    I don’t understand what you are saying. The seal on the President’s certificate on the link Dr. C provided is above the date stamped near the bottom, in that open space, with the top of it reaching up to Box # 21. The official signature is to the right.

    Mine is similar with the seal on the lower open space on the page with no initials (not like the one you posted). I’m not about to post mine.

    Yon:
    No paper. The perforated punch out clearly shown that is curled back on the left is the BC the paper outside the perforation is not part of the BC. Show me a picture that has a seal that is not on the BC and I will believe it is possible.

  100. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 10:22 pm #

    Ollie. I am not a Birther. I never asked Obama to prove his citizenship. Birthers did. I got interested in this discussion when the news broke he willingly posted it on Whitehouse.gov. I would have ignored the silly birthed arguments up to that point.

    Being a computer programmer and creating graphics for interfaces, I looked at the document and then became convinced that there were issues with it.

  101. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 10:28 pm #

    A partial seal on any document makes it invalid.

  102. avatar
    Paper July 19, 2012 at 10:29 pm #

    It is not partial. It is complete. From what you are saying, it seems you are not actually looking at the seal.

    Yon:
    A partial seal on any document makes it invalid.

  103. avatar
    OllieOxenFree July 19, 2012 at 10:29 pm #

    Yon

    “Being a computer programmer and creating graphics for interfaces, I looked at the document and then became convinced that there were issues with it.”

    And yet you spent no time with the Romney birth certificate that was released? If you are truly interested on documentation that has been released… Obama or Romney… then why have you not spent any time with the Romney released birth certificate? Do your reserve your objections only for those who you are politically opposed to or is there another reason for your lack of interest in Romney’s documentation?

    You seem to find reason to question Obama’s certificate even though it is certified and has been verified by the very same state officials who created the document, but have no problems with the photocopied birth certificate that Romney released that has yet to be verified by anyone?

  104. avatar
    Paper July 19, 2012 at 10:30 pm #

    Meanwhile, here is the COLB with its seal in better light:

    http://factcheck.org/Images/image/birth_certificate_images/birth_certificate_5.jpg

  105. avatar
    OllieOxenFree July 19, 2012 at 10:32 pm #

    Yon

    It is not a “partial seal.” It is a complete seal and was observed by a reporter who “ran her fingers” over the seal and even took a better photograph of it. You are making an assumption that it is not a complete seal based on the scan of a document. An assumption for which you have absolutely no proof of, and yet you state as fact that it is “partial.” You simply do not know that. You are making an assumption and stating it as fact in order to support your predrawn conclusion.

  106. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 10:32 pm #

    Paper. On your BC, is there a portion which can be torn off because of a perforation? Like a check, with the top or bottom portion torn off with other information that is for your records only?

    The stamp on Obama’s BC mostly resides on the non-document.

  107. avatar
    Jim July 19, 2012 at 10:36 pm #

    Yon: “Being a computer programmer and creating graphics for interfaces, I looked at the document and then became convinced that there were issues with it.”

    Oh come on now, if you were what you say you are then you’d KNOW that the graphics you create would look different on different computers, different graphics cards, different operating systems, different browsers, and different settings. You’d also know that graphic images can be manipulated either for the simple purpose of making them load faster or to enhance the image. And, you’d further KNOW that you could not say an image on the web is a forgery or not unless you had the underlying document to actually look at. I’ve been a programmer for over 30 years and when they came out with that analysis, I was rolling on the floor about the stupidity of their so-called forensic analysis. In fact, REAL forensic experts told them THE SAME THING, they couldn’t tell a forgery from an image. So, basically, either you are a TERRIBLE programmer who knows nothing about the field you’re in, or you’re LYING OUT YOU A$$.

  108. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 10:36 pm #

    Yes there is a selective service confirmation site based on SSN, name, birthdate.

    https://www.sss.gov/Regver/mobile/mVerification.aspx

  109. avatar
    Andy July 19, 2012 at 10:39 pm #

    Yon:
    Paper. On your BC, is there a portion which can be torn off because of a perforation? Like a check, with the top or bottom portion torn off with other information that is for your records only?

    The stamp on Obama’s BC mostly resides on the non-document.

    Mine certainly doesn’t have that, and neither does Obama’s. There isn’t a trace of perforation the the document.

    There is, on the left side, dark areas where the book binding prevented the document from being fully on the scanner. But that isn’t a perforation of any sort, it’s simply the dark edges created by non-contact with the photocopier. (I get that all the time when copying things out of books).

  110. avatar
    Andy July 19, 2012 at 10:43 pm #

    Yon:
    Yes there is a selective service confirmation site based on SSN, name, birthdate.

    https://www.sss.gov/Regver/mobile/mVerification.aspx

    And it shows Obama registered in 1980, just as the Selective Service Administration says. Weird. They all agree! It must be a conspiracy if all the evidence agrees with the other side!

  111. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 10:43 pm #

    Jim, different graphics cards do not display two sizes of pixels on the same layer or lie about embedded coding in the file. I program is C/Java/Netlinx/basic. I can’t draw worth a darn, si I rely on pixel edits and copying certain portion from already produced free graphics to make an image.

  112. avatar
    Ton July 19, 2012 at 10:49 pm #

    Not 042 xx Andy. It does not. At least not, last year when the BC was released. It said the record did not exist or something to that effect. What Ssn did you use? The Conn one?

  113. avatar
    Andy July 19, 2012 at 10:51 pm #

    Ton:
    Not 042 xx Andy. It does not. At least not, last year when the BC was released. It said the record did not exist or something to that effect.What Ssn did you use? The Conn one?

    I used Obama’s SSN, not a Connecticut one. (Since they aren’t reserved for specific states.)

    And I checked right after the SSN was released, and it’s ALWAYS said he registered in 1980.

  114. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 10:53 pm #

    Can you not see that after the bottom line in box 22, that the official copy of the BC has ended? The seal falls well outside this line. It is not a legal document inside of the perforations because of this

  115. avatar
    Andy July 19, 2012 at 10:55 pm #

    Yon:
    Can you not see that after the bottom line in box 22, that the official copy of the BC has ended? The seal falls well outside this line. It is not a legal document inside of the perforations because of this

    There are no perforations, Yon. The paper it is printed on is modern security paper. It is bigger than the old BC. No perforations. The ENTIRE piece of paper is the document, not just the old form in the middle. (You’ll notice that the signature is outside the box, as well as the stamp.)

    Can you see perforations? If so, you’re imagining them…

  116. avatar
    Paper July 19, 2012 at 10:55 pm #

    No there is no such perforation on my document. The seal the President’s certificate is fully on the document, which has no perforations.

    Yon:
    Paper. On your BC, is there a portion which can be torn off because of a perforation? Like a check, with the top or bottom portion torn off with other information that is for your records only?

    The stamp on Obama’s BC mostly resides on the non-document.

  117. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 19, 2012 at 10:56 pm #

    How would you know what a legal document is? We already have enough birthers making stuff up here, thank you very much.

    Yon: Can you not see that after the bottom line in box 22, that the official copy of the BC has ended? The seal falls well outside this line. It is not a legal document inside of the perforations because of this

  118. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 19, 2012 at 10:57 pm #

    You don’t have a clue what that means, do you?

    Yon: Jim, different graphics cards do not display two sizes of pixels on the same layer or lie about embedded coding in the file.

  119. avatar
    OllieOxenFree July 19, 2012 at 10:58 pm #

    Yon

    “It is not a legal document inside of the perforations because of this…”

    Says who? Can you please provide the requirements for placement of a state seal that makes a document valid or invalid… or are you just guessing? If you are going to state this as fact, then I have to ask that you please provide the legal requirements by the state of Hawaii that outline where the state seal should be placed on a document in order to consider that document valid.

  120. avatar
    Paper July 19, 2012 at 10:58 pm #

    This is exactly how mine looks, but the seal is even lower. Mine is actually from a state that still does what looks like a long form, and it is an old image, with my parents signatures even, from long ago printed out on new paper from this year. I guess mine is not legal, and I should tell my state they sent me a non-legal document?

    I mean I was joking with my mother saying she had me out of the country (There are pictures of me as a baby in a foreign country after all), but maybe I was actually hitting it spot on?

    Yon:
    Can you not see that after the bottom line in box 22, that the official copy of the BC has ended? The seal falls well outside this line. It is not a legal document inside of the perforations because of this

  121. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 10:58 pm #

    Andy you are wrong. Even snopes shows the flag

    Why Barack Obama’s Social Security card application might have included a Connecticut mailing address is something of a curiosity, as he had no known connection to that state at the time, but by itself that quirk is no indicator of fraud. The most likely explanation for the discrepancy is a simple clerical or typographical error: the ZIP code in the area of Honolulu where Barack Obama lived is 96814, while the ZIP code for Danbury, Connecticut, is 06814. Since ‘0’ and ‘9’ are similarly shaped numbers and are adjacent on typewriter keyboards, it’s not uncommon for handwritten examples to be mistaken for each other, or for one to be mistyped as the other (thereby potentially resulting in a Hawaiian resident’s application mistakenly being routed as if it had originated from Connecticut).
    Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/ssn.asp#CjbYweOEpp1XwHuV.99

  122. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 19, 2012 at 10:59 pm #

    That’s where they put them in Hawaii.

    Yon: The stamp on Obama’s BC mostly resides on the non-document.

  123. avatar
    ObiWanCannoli July 19, 2012 at 10:59 pm #

    Yon:
    Jim, different graphics cards do not display two sizes of pixels on the same layer or lie about embedded coding in the file. I program is C/Java/Netlinx/basic. I can’t draw worth a darn, si I rely on pixel edits and copying certain portion from already produced free graphics to make an image.

    Who does programming in C and Basic these days?

  124. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 19, 2012 at 11:02 pm #

    Classic Dunning-Kruger.

    Yon: Being a computer programmer and creating graphics for interfaces, I looked at the document and then became convinced that there were issues with it.

  125. avatar
    Andy July 19, 2012 at 11:03 pm #

    Yon:
    Andy you are wrong. Even snopes shows the flag

    Why Barack Obama’s Social Security card application might have included a Connecticut mailing address is something of a curiosity, as he had no known connection to that state at the time, but by itself that quirk is no indicator of fraud. The most likely explanation for the discrepancy is a simple clerical or typographical error: the ZIP code in the area of Honolulu where Barack Obama lived is 96814, while the ZIP code for Danbury, Connecticut, is 06814. Since ’0′ and ’9′ are similarly shaped numbers and are adjacent on typewriter keyboards, it’s not uncommon for handwritten examples to be mistaken for each other, or for one to be mistyped as the other (thereby potentially resulting in a Hawaiian resident’s application mistakenly being routed as if it had originated from Connecticut).
    Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/ssn.asp#CjbYweOEpp1XwHuV.99

    No, Yon, I’m not. They USED to be assigned by where the return address was from. But that doesn’t and has never made it a “Connecticut Social Security Number.” But they were not, at the time, reserved for specific residents of specific states. You could be visiting in another state, get a social security number with a different number than your home state, and it is still perfectly legitimate.

    So would you like to try again? Or are there too many perforations in that, too?

  126. avatar
    nbc July 19, 2012 at 11:04 pm #

    Yon: Can you not see that after the bottom line in box 22, that the official copy of the BC has ended? The seal falls well outside this line. It is not a legal document inside of the perforations because of this

    Oh how creative and ill informed… Fascinating the amount of delusion birther are willing to endure just because they hate our President.

    Such follies.

  127. avatar
    y_p_w July 19, 2012 at 11:05 pm #

    Paper:
    It is not partial.It is complete.From what you are saying, it seems you are not actually looking at the seal.

    That a vital record or any other official document might have a weakly stamped seal isn’t unusual.

    Over the years I’ve received any number of documents including vital records and official college records that were certified with an embossed seal. Sometimes they’ve been extremely crisp – even extremely readable if a pencil shading was made on another piece of paper. Sometimes I couldn’t see what they said. I’ve seen some of them using an electric embosser where the result was that it tore through the paper a little bit. Some of them might have been from a hand stamp that received too light a pressure or even a die that was worn or slightly misaligned.

    I’ve submitted some of the weakly sealed documents for official purposes. My kid’s BC from the California DPH has a seal that sort of looks like the Great Seal of California. That didn’t stop the State Dept from accepting it and issuing my kid a passport.

    I honestly believe that Obama’s LFBC copies were “one off” documents that received special consideration from the HDOH. The DOH and Registrar say that they personally oversaw the copying process. I’ve thought that it was most likely that the seal was a specific hand embosser sitting on the desk of either the DOH or Registrar and not the electric embosser with the stylized version of the seal that’s used for most certified copies of vital records.

  128. avatar
    nbc July 19, 2012 at 11:06 pm #

    Yon: A partial seal on any document makes it invalid.

    Note the absence of any references or arguments. But the seal is in fact complete.

    Such follies. Why do people hate reason so much that they are willing to expose themselves to well deserved ridicule?

  129. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 11:08 pm #

    Doc, I won’t give up my own credentials. For similar things I stated on other websites, I almost lost my job even though I did not break a rule, it became political.

    I cam here hoping to here a good argument. Rather, I found a partial seal. Just as all the arguments with Obama, there is a clerical argument somewhere. A red flag here, a red flag there such as his ssn, selective services, bc, his Kenya birth brochure and his sealed records.

    I am most certainly not promoting Romney. His religious beliefs bother me and I am sure there is dirt in his other tax documents.

    That is not the subject at hand though.

  130. avatar
    y_p_w July 19, 2012 at 11:08 pm #

    Andy: No, Yon, I’m not.They USED to be assigned by where the return address was from.But that doesn’t and has never made it a “Connecticut Social Security Number.”But they were not, at the time, reserved for specific residents of specific states.You could be visiting in another state, get a social security number with a different number than your home state, and it is still perfectly legitimate.

    Or someone could have entered the wrong zip code (0 instead of 9) and it still ended up sent to the proper recipient.

  131. avatar
    linda July 19, 2012 at 11:13 pm #

    No, it is not perorated, it is creased from being folded.

    Yon:
    Paper. On your BC, is there a portion which can be torn off because of a perforation? Like a check, with the top or bottom portion torn off with other information that is for your records only?

    The stamp on Obama’s BC mostly resides on the non-document.

  132. avatar
    nbc July 19, 2012 at 11:15 pm #

    y_p_w: Or someone could have entered the wrong zip code (0 instead of 9) and it still ended up sent to the proper recipient.

    Yep, that is a very likely explanation but one the birthers will refuse to even address. Poor souls. Their hate is driving them down a path of ignorance, allowing others control over them. Such sock puppets.

  133. avatar
    Paper July 19, 2012 at 11:19 pm #

    But it’s not partial. Moreover, if you go look at the COLB from 2008 it is clearly stamped in better light.

    More to the point, Hawaii has verified the information more than once officially, as well as providing a link on their own website to the White House image.

    Yon:

    I cam here hoping to here a good argument. Rather, I found a partial seal. Just as all the arguments with Obama, there is a clerical argument somewhere. A red flag here, a red flag there such as his ssn, selective services, bc, his Kenya birth brochure and his sealed records.

    I am most certainly not promoting Romney. His religious beliefs bother me and I am sure there is dirt in his other tax documents.

    That is not the subject at hand though.

  134. avatar
    Yon July 19, 2012 at 11:23 pm #

    I presented you with a legal seal on a Hawaii Bc that was within the Bc document and you do not accept that.

    You do not accept all the decrepancies I showed you. Who programs in C? I am on an iPhone, sorry I did not add the ++, but hey. No mention of Java and the others and yes, I still love vbscript for quick testing before production code because I do not have declare variables and I do many things that are not normal. I did receive a national award before a regional and state one, but I could not care if you believe me.

    You won’t even look at the clarical errors and think to yourself that there are just too many of them to be statistically doubtful. No different to me then when a birther is proven wrong. He will go on arguing the point anyway.

  135. avatar
    y_p_w July 19, 2012 at 11:23 pm #

    Yon:
    Can you not see that after the bottom line in box 22, that the official copy of the BC has ended? The seal falls well outside this line. It is not a legal document inside of the perforations because of this

    OK?

    I’ve ordered several copies of my kid’s certified birth certificate from local agencies and the State of California. The actual information on the birth certificate is in a small area near the center, and it’s pretty clear where this information ends. The embossed seal on each and every one of these copies lies outside of the informational area. The location also varies, from lower left to lower right. That’s never stopped government agencies from accepting these as proof of my kid’s birth and citizenship. I’d think that if it wasn’t a valid document because the seal was outside of this area, my kid would have never been issued a US passport.

    I’ve gotten multiple certified copies of our marriage certificate from the county where we obtained our marriage license. The first one was almost edge to edge so the seal (which is really hard to read) is overlaid over some of the actual information. However, the other copies are all reduced size for the image, so the embossed seal was placed in an otherwise blank spot in the vital records paper. So these are not legal documents? Someone tell the State Department this. Someone tell the other government agencies that accepted these documents.

    Exactly what are you smoking and where can I get me some of that?

  136. avatar
    Paper July 19, 2012 at 11:27 pm #

    I can accept the image you posted. But that has nothing to do with the President’s certificate. It is stamped in a different space on a single sheet of paper, no perforations. It is not stamped over the text of the document, but it is still on the same piece of paper. Mine is much the same, with the stamp all the way towards the bottom of the page not even overlapping.

    It obviously and clearly need not be stamped over the text of the certificate. And, again, there are no perforations, nor is it a partial seal.

    Yon:
    I presented you with a legal seal on a Hawaii Bc that was within the Bc document and you do not accept that.

  137. avatar
    y_p_w July 19, 2012 at 11:28 pm #

    nbc: Yep, that is a very likely explanation but one the birthers will refuse to even address. Poor souls. Their hate is driving them down a path of ignorance, allowing others control over them. Such sock puppets.

    I’ve tried explaining that to birthers. The claims have included that “Social Security mailings aren’t allowed to be corrected for address” or that a “temporary address is not allowed to be used”.

  138. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 19, 2012 at 11:37 pm #

    That’s fine, but you cannot expect any rational person to accept you on face value when the State of Hawaii has repeatedly verified the document you suspect is a fake. The very fact that you mix other non-certificate issues into your argument screams bias and conspiracy thinking (not to mention that those issues are bogus too).

    Simple question, are you an expert in MRC compression or even know what it is? If the answer is no, then you’re not qualified to have an expert opinion.

    Dr. Neal Krawetz is a recognized expert in the analysis of electronic documents, has presented papers at national conferences and authored software to do analysis of suspected fake documents. He says the long form is completely normal. I know who he is and his credentials. Why should I believe you?

    Ivan Zatkovich often testifies about documents in court. He says the document is consistent with optimization of readability and doesn’t indicate fraud.

    Another expert who has his own forensics company said (and this was a private email so I can’t name him): “My cursory review found no evidence to suggest anything other than an authentic document.” Another expert interviewed on a Phoenix TV station, who has a data security company, said it was OK

    Have you read John Woodman’s book, http://www.obamabirthbook.com/get-obama-birth-certificate-book/ ? He spent hundreds of hours testing and demolishing every birther argument about the long form, and he’s a Tea Party Conservative.

    I have no reason to believe you because your argument is nothing more than an appeal to authority, your own. You say that something should be this way, and can’t be that way. Where’s your authority for saying that? Missing.

    You can make an argument from authority, but you have to cite a recognized authority. I don’t recognize you.

    Yon: Doc, I won’t give up my own credentials. For similar things I stated on other websites, I almost lost my job even though I did not break a rule, it became political.

  139. avatar
    US Citizen July 19, 2012 at 11:38 pm #

    ObiWanCannoli: Who does programming in C and Basic these days?

    Actually a lot of people. Myself included.
    Programming PICs and other programmable logic can be done in C or apps like PICBASICPro.
    Same instructions as common BASIC for the most part, but without the line numbers of yore and able to compile to hardware.
    Some PICs even use BASIC directly and interpret the instructions in real time.
    As to an artist that can’t draw, I’ll leave that one alone… unless a DJ shows up and calls himself a “musician”. 😉

  140. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 19, 2012 at 11:46 pm #

    There aren’t any clerical errors. Zullo lied about the codes.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/07/code-9-the-cold-case-posses-big-lie/

    Yon: You won’t even look at the clarical errors and think to yourself that there are just too many of them to be statistically doubtful. No different to me then when a birther is proven wrong. He will go on arguing the point anyway.

  141. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 19, 2012 at 11:50 pm #

    Yon: Show me a picture that has a seal that is not on the BC and I will believe it is possible.

    You just saw one. It was issued by the State of Hawaii.

  142. avatar
    richCares July 19, 2012 at 11:50 pm #

    He trys to act reasonable, says he is not a birher, and says real proof will convice him. Well he is abirther and a lying one at that. State of Hawaii has repeatedly verified the document that he suspects is a fake. so what do I call him?
    a lying sack of shinola. I give you one guess to whom I refer (hint: you don’t need 3 guesses)
    .
    I programmed in C++ and interfaced through and with PDF documents, creating sets of data from a vey large database and producing the output as a PDF file.

  143. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 19, 2012 at 11:52 pm #

    I was probably developing software before you were born (1968). But knowing how to program and knowing how to use Photoshop is not the skill set you need for the long form. You need to know the compression algorithms, and that’s not something you come across normally.

    Why don’t you actually try to make an argument rather than an assertion based on an appeal to an anonymous authority (yourself)?

    BTW, I got out my own birth certificate and the seal barely touches a line that outlines the entire form. No text touches it at all. I got a passport with that certificate, so I know it’s legal.

    Yon: I presented you with a legal seal on a Hawaii Bc that was within the Bc document and you do not accept that.

    You do not accept all the decrepancies I showed you. Who programs in C? I am on an iPhone, sorry I did not add the ++, but hey. No mention of Java and the others and yes, I still love vbscript for quick testing before production code because I do not have declare variables and I do many things that are not normal. I did receive a national award before a regional and state one, but I could not care if you believe me.

  144. avatar
    justlw July 19, 2012 at 11:52 pm #

    Doc: Is it a bad sign that when I saw the [redacted by lw, in case you wanted to preserve the mystery] in the image above, a little shiver ran down my spine?

    EDIT: Heh, I hadn’t even read the last paragraph yet.

  145. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 19, 2012 at 11:56 pm #

    Yon: Yes there is a selective service confirmation site based on SSN, name, birthdate

    This confirms Selective Service registration for men born after 1960. It does not verify Social Security numbers…..as you claimed.

  146. avatar
    justlw July 19, 2012 at 11:59 pm #

    CarlOrcas: born in Lenya until 2007. It sure ain’t a typo

    Of course. No one ever makes a typo.

    Bwa ha ha.

  147. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 19, 2012 at 11:59 pm #

    Andy: And it shows Obama registered in 1980, just as the Selective Service Administration says. Weird. They all agree! It must be a conspiracy if all the evidence agrees with the other side!

    Jimmy Carter was President in 1980. Wow! So he was in on it as well.

  148. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 20, 2012 at 12:00 am #

    I did a forms application that used the Adobe Acrobat API to print, TA DA, birth certificates! In fact, if you get a birth certificate today in the US, chances are about 1 in 12 that some code I wrote is involved.

    richCares: I programmed in C++ and interfaced through and with PDF documents, creating sets of data from a very large database and producing the output as a PDF file.

  149. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG July 20, 2012 at 12:01 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I was probably developing software before you were born (1968).

    That. Is. AWESOME!!!

  150. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 20, 2012 at 12:03 am #

    Oh, I thought you meant C:\.

    Yon: sorry I did not add the ++

  151. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 20, 2012 at 12:03 am #

    ObiWanCannoli: Who does programming in C and Basic these days?

    High school kids?

  152. avatar
    justlw July 20, 2012 at 12:03 am #

    Yon: Wait. Who set the standard of 12 years of taxes?

    Oh, chuckle. You should look it up. Two hints: his son is a presumptive major party candidate for US president in 2012, and he was born outside of the United States.

    That narrows it down to two people. I’ll let you work it out from there.

  153. avatar
    justlw July 20, 2012 at 12:08 am #

    Yon: Dr. How could you study Obama’s bc for 3.5 years when it has not been out that long?

    Ya know, you might want to try this show out in the sticks before you take it to Broadway.

  154. avatar
    misha July 20, 2012 at 12:15 am #

    Yon: Dr. How could you study Obama’s bc for 3.5 years when it has not been out that long?

    You owe me a new keyboard and screen, plus I might have to go to an Otolaryngologist about the coffee in my nose.

    Thanks for nothing, pal.

  155. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 20, 2012 at 12:17 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: BTW, I got out my own birth certificate and the seal barely touches a line that outlines the entire form. No text touches it at all. I got a passport with that certificate, so I know it’s legal

    Out of curiosity I went looking for mine and found a photocopy of a 1953 photostat of my original handwritten 1947 birth certificate. Guess where the seal is? Off one end outside the birth info area.

    I have a newer one out of the state system that looks pretty much like Obama’s short form.

  156. avatar
    justlw July 20, 2012 at 12:27 am #

    ObiWanCannoli: Who does programming in C

    According to the web site I most often refer to for such questions, the most popular programming languages in use today are:

    1. C
    2. Java
    3. Objective C
    4. C++
    5. C#
    6. Visual Basic

    Considering how much Java owes to C and C++, and how much C# rips off, er, owes to Java, that’s a lot of C up there… .

  157. avatar
    gorefan July 20, 2012 at 12:40 am #

    Yon: I presented you with a legal seal on a Hawaii Bc that was within the Bc document and you do not accept that.

    Have you seen the Nordyke BCs? The seal on their BCs is not in the BC but completely below it by the signatures.

  158. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 20, 2012 at 12:48 am #

    john: We want to see the BC.

    You have…..two of them.

    What, exactly, do you want to see other than that?

  159. avatar
    JPotter July 20, 2012 at 12:52 am #

    Yon: I am typing this from an iPhone, so the mistakes are great. I am a PC guy.

    Worst excuse for typos ever! What about an operating system influences typing accuracy? And why would a preference for Windows affect a person ability to use a phone? This is the first time I’ve heard this lame one. Sounds like logic from iPhone4 vs HTC Evo!

  160. avatar
    justlw July 20, 2012 at 12:52 am #

    Yon: I would have ignored the silly birthed arguments up to that point.

    Being a computer programmer and creating graphics for interfaces, I looked at the document and then became convinced that there were issues with it.

    Being a programmer, do you understand the difference between an object, and a pointer to the object?

    A pointer is not the object. Even if a pointer is corrupt, it does not corrupt the object itself. If you change the value of a pointer, you are not changing the object.

    This is why, no matter what flaws you think you see in the PDF, it has no bearing on the validity of the president’s birth certificate. None.

  161. avatar
    justlw July 20, 2012 at 12:57 am #

    JPotter: What about an operating system influences typing accuracy?

    Nahh, I’ll give him that one, too. iOS just loves to “fix” text for you. In fact, it’s kind of notorious for it.

    And apparently it knows more about Lotte Lenya than it does about African countries.

    On the other hand, anyone who’s owned an iPhone for more than a week knows this, and checks that the phone is registering what they think it should be registering.

  162. avatar
    JPotter July 20, 2012 at 12:59 am #

    Yon: I lost my BC after I started work where I work, but Obama himself signed a law that I had to prove I was born here to keep working.

    1) Take better care of your papers, and, 2) what law?, and 3) you claim to be born overseas, Obama wasn’t, tough. Natural-born citizenship hath its privileges.

  163. avatar
    misha July 20, 2012 at 1:03 am #

    JPotter: 2) what law?

    Moore’s Law

  164. avatar
    JPotter July 20, 2012 at 1:04 am #

    justlw: Nahh, I’ll give him that one, too. iOS just loves to “fix” text for you. In fact, it’s kind of notorious for it.

    Nope, no points. Autocorrect is nothing new. Microsoft applications are also notorious for it (I have been trying for a year to get $%^&*ing Outlook to recognize the name “Martie” … not “Marty” … it ain’t happening). True, iOS offers less control over such settings. Yawn just needs to learn to type.

  165. avatar
    Majority Will July 20, 2012 at 1:07 am #

    justlw: Nahh, I’ll give him that one, too. iOS just loves to “fix” text for you. In fact, it’s kind of notorious for it.

    And apparently it knows more about Lotte Lenya than it does about African countries.

    On the other hand, anyone who’s owned an iPhone for more than a week knows this, and checks that the phone is registering what they think it should be registering.

    And auto-correct can easily be turned off.

    Settings > General > Keyboard > Auto-Correction > Off

  166. avatar
    Majority Will July 20, 2012 at 1:09 am #

    JPotter: iOS offers less control over such settings. Yawn just needs to learn to type.

    Or just turn it off.

    Settings > General > Keyboard > Auto-Correction > Off

  167. avatar
    y_p_w July 20, 2012 at 1:13 am #

    ObiWanCannoli: Who does programming in C and Basic these days?

    Where’d you get the handle?

    The first time I’d ever heard the pun “Obi Wan Cannoli” was on the menu at the cafe at the Yerba Buena Center for the Arts in San Francisco. It was just after Christmas 1994 and they had lines around the block trying to get into the exhibit The Art of Star Wars featuring original models and matte background paintings used in the actually Star Wars Trilogy. They had stuff like one of the original Darth Vader costumes and a Yoda puppet. One could also see odd stuff like a representation of San Francisco’s Transamerica Pyramid in the landing bay of the new Death Star and a smiley face painted on a Stormtrooper.

    Besides the “Obi Wan Cannoli”, another punnish menu item was a “Wookie Cookie”.

  168. avatar
    justlw July 20, 2012 at 1:14 am #

    And wayyy off topic… I clicked through on my own link, and I thought I’d share some autocorrected TV show personalities and names:

    Tilapia Tequila
    America’s Got Tourettes
    Touched by an Asian
    Law and Order: Special Cucumber Unit
    or… Law and Order: Special Vacuuming Unit
    Ninja Worrier
    Golden Gorillas

  169. avatar
    justlw July 20, 2012 at 1:20 am #

    And this is why I never turn autocorrect off. The results can be most edifying. Think how much the poorer we’d be without Lenya.

  170. avatar
    JPotter July 20, 2012 at 1:21 am #

    Yon: No paper. The perforated punch out clearly shown that is curled back on the left is the BC the paper outside the perforation is not part of the BC. Show me a picture that has a seal that is not on the BC and I will believe it is possible.

    Yon:

    Wow. Another birther takes another cake! What a mental lapse. No understanding of how a certified copy is made.

    HINT: photocopiers don’t do embossing.

  171. avatar
    JPotter July 20, 2012 at 1:24 am #

    Yon: Jim, different graphics cards do not display two sizes of pixels on the same layer or lie about embedded coding in the file.

    Another instant classic! Pray your employer / clients don’t recognize the handle. Yikes.

  172. avatar
    Yon July 20, 2012 at 1:24 am #

    Ok. I see and understand the seal now. I am slow, but I see the stamp applies to the date of the request/release of the certified copy, not the actual BC itself. The stamps on those are not visible if they are there.

    Questions:

    Maybe you can explain to me why LEE Verna did not sign their certificates when she appears to be the signature still in 1962?

    Also. Only the number 9 as regard to race was addressed ealier, however – I see the word African and not other.

    What about the codes where he was born in a place other than a hospital? Codes which appear on the left, education and other codes.

    Please look into these.

  173. avatar
    JPotter July 20, 2012 at 1:26 am #

    y_p_w: Besides the “Obi Wan Cannoli”, another punnish menu item was a “Wookie Cookie”.

    Wookiee Cookies: A Star Wars Cookbook

  174. avatar
    Yon July 20, 2012 at 1:27 am #

    CarlOrcas., it is a self confirmation which requires SSN to perform it. If you have a three fields, it will confirm or deny

  175. avatar
    gorefan July 20, 2012 at 1:30 am #

    Yon: Maybe you can explain to me why LEE Verna did not sign their certificates when she appears to be the signature still in 1962?

    President Obama’s was signed by Lee on the 8th, the Nordykes was signed on the 11th. Maybe she had the day off or maybe there were more than one local registars who could stamp.

  176. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 20, 2012 at 1:31 am #

    Yon: CarlOrcas., it is a self confirmation which requires SSN to perform it. If you have a three fields, it will confirm or deny

    It confirms Selective Service registration. You cannot use it to confirm a Social Security number.

  177. avatar
    gorefan July 20, 2012 at 1:32 am #

    Yon: Only the number 9 as regard to race was addressed ealier, however – I see the word African and not other

    There are other Hawaiian BCs on the net were Portugese/English/German is listed as race. It is whatever the parents put on the BC.

  178. avatar
    gorefan July 20, 2012 at 1:39 am #

    Yon: What about the codes where he was born in a place other than a hospital? Codes which appear on the left, education and other codes.

    Read Box 6c.

    Hospital or Institution (if not in hospital or institution, give street address).

    There is a hospital name listed on the President’s BC, not a street address. And there is no code in box 6c.

  179. avatar
    justlw July 20, 2012 at 1:42 am #

    Yon: What about the codes where he was born in a place other than a hospital? Codes which appear on the left, education and other codes.

    The codes you are referring to are for the boxes on the facing page.

    EDIT: The code to the left of “hospital” is for some box on the facing page. There is no box for “education.”

  180. avatar
    Yon July 20, 2012 at 1:42 am #

    No Doc, I am not an expert on MRC, but I have studied both sides of the argument and much depends on the argument of bit depth of the hardware and what the object is, that is being scanned. I was building microprocessors using ACLU, other supporting chips around the time a 6800.

    Having said that can’t imagine the single bit/ multi bit / non searchable text in the document. I can’t come up with answers even though I have read shady explanations on both sides.

    With the quality equipment and resolutions of today, I cannot see how we can have 1 bit depth and then chromigraphic errors right next to each other on the same layer.

  181. avatar
    justlw July 20, 2012 at 1:46 am #

    I remember using the ACLU chip. It was very good about accepting any programming language, no matter its origin.

    Please, whatever you do: do not turn auto-correct off.

  182. avatar
    Yon July 20, 2012 at 1:50 am #

    Potter, never seen dang you auto correct? It does the total opposite that windows does. You have to hit the x and pay attention or it overwrites.

  183. avatar
    justlw July 20, 2012 at 1:52 am #

    Yon: Having said that can’t imagine the single bit/ multi bit / non searchable text in the document. I can’t come up with answers even though I have read shady explanations on both sides.

    You really need to read up on MRC.

    Also, please see my tortured analogy above. Even if you prove that the PDF was tampered with by Adobe Spetznaz cryowarriors, it has no impact on the validity of the president’s birth certificate.

  184. avatar
    justlw July 20, 2012 at 1:58 am #

    Dang, just missed the edit timer. See JPotter’s excellent post about MRC.

  185. avatar
    Yon July 20, 2012 at 2:00 am #

    Doc. I was born in 1963. Besides programming with binary using switches, I began in 6800 hex, then assembly, then on from there.. I was not even in 1st grade when you were programming 🙂

    Perhaps that is why I found your initial argument positive. It was logical without emotions. That Is a rate thing.

  186. avatar
    justlw July 20, 2012 at 2:03 am #

    Yon: I began in 6800 hex, then assembly, then on from there..

    Yeah, but did you ever write COMPASS subroutines to interface with a Fortran 77 main program, using overlay capsules, so the PPU would accept single character input?

  187. avatar
    justlw July 20, 2012 at 2:04 am #

    And did you ever use LOGO to make the turtle turn left… then right?!?!?

  188. avatar
    Yon July 20, 2012 at 2:09 am #

    See, autocorrect messes up rare with rate. But, it also helps me finish words on the keyboard faster. I have turned it on and off.

    Mostly good arguments and as you will note, I admitted the seal mistake I made which was something that I thought was new.

    Peace!

  189. avatar
    JPotter July 20, 2012 at 2:10 am #

    Yon: Please look into these.

    If you give a mouse a cookie…..

  190. avatar
    JPotter July 20, 2012 at 2:13 am #

    Yon: Potter, never seen dang you auto correct?

    No, I have never seen me auto correct when dang’d. When dang’d I first must realize that I have been dang’d, or have dang’d myself, and then contemplate on the best way to undang myself. This is never an automatic process.

  191. avatar
    y_p_w July 20, 2012 at 2:16 am #

    justlw: You really need to read up on MRC.

    Also, please see my tortured analogy above. Even if you prove that the PDF was tampered with by Adobe Spetznaz cryowarriors, it has no impact on the validity of the president’s birth certificate.

    It’s not that hard. When files are compressed, all sorts of odd things can happen with the algorithms used to achieve really tiny files sizes. I’ve played around with JPEG compression, and there are some funky things that happen if you really want to bring down the file size.

  192. avatar
    JPotter July 20, 2012 at 2:20 am #

    justlw: Dang, just missed the edit timer. See JPotter’s excellent post about MRC.

    I appreciate it, but not really so excellent, more like “take-my-word-for-it” naysaying. The references i give are excellent—and very easily found!—but if a person was up to understanding / acknowledging them despite bias, they wouldn’t be birfing.

    I would love to whip out a killer series of demos along with a thunderous, doorslamming tech explainer, but why bother? I don’t need to convince myself. those that could benefit, won’t. I put it all together in my own mind 6 months too late. To those who no doubt were on top of it from day one, it’s too obvious to bother with.

  193. avatar
    JPotter July 20, 2012 at 2:23 am #

    Yon: I cannot see how we can have 1 bit depth and then chromigraphic errors right next to each other on the same layer.

    Typical, typical …. “I cannot imagine what I don’t know.” Well, then, try

    You’d be better off starting with the assumption that you know nothing.

  194. avatar
    justlw July 20, 2012 at 2:25 am #

    y_p_w: I’ve played around with JPEG…

    True enough, but “MRC on the copier/scanner” really fits the known data here. I wish someone could get just ten seconds on an appropriately-configured Xerox Document Centre. (Psst, CCP: if you were running a square game, that “someone” would have been you.)

    But in any event, the key point remains that there is no point in trying to find true Buddha nature within the PDF. Entertaining, sure; but, utterly and totally irrelevant.

  195. avatar
    Yon July 20, 2012 at 2:31 am #

    Here Is another side too it. You people have more time then I do.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/07/m-new_obama_birth_certificate_forgery_proof_in_the_layers.html

  196. avatar
    JPotter July 20, 2012 at 2:31 am #

    justlw: I wish someone could get just ten seconds on an appropriately-configured Xerox Document Centre.

    You just have to select “Use MRC Compression?” under the “Scan to PDF” settings.

  197. avatar
    richCares July 20, 2012 at 2:33 am #

    Just for a bit of clarification, if try to search for characters in the White House PDF file it will give the following message (in Acrobat Pro)
    ************************************************************************************************
    This page contains only an image of a scanned page. There are no text characters. Would you like to run character analysis to make text on the page accessible (OCR)?
    ************************************************************************************************.
    Which means unless your run the OCR, there is no text in this PDF file!
    so what are those silly layers?

  198. avatar
    JPotter July 20, 2012 at 2:35 am #

    Yon: Here Is another side too it. You people have more time then I do.

    Zebest again?!? You guys really do swim in the same cesspools!

    You know how to tell when you’ve found the right explanation? Look for the one that’s demonstrable, and never changes. Birfers are always ginning “new” refutations, and telling you that the LFBC can’t be recreated. I’m telling you it can, and how, and will repeat the same in 6 months or 6 years.

  199. avatar
    richCares July 20, 2012 at 2:38 am #

    forgot to mention, I don’t think birthers have the right Acrobat version to run as OCR, Acrobat Reader does not have an OCR engine.

  200. avatar
    Joe Acerbic July 20, 2012 at 3:32 am #

    justlw: You really need to read up on MRC.

    Also, please see my tortured analogy above. Even if you prove that the PDF was tampered with by Adobe Spetznaz cryowarriors, it has no impact on the validity of the president’s birth certificate.

    If the White House had Capuchin monks making copies of the birth certificate by feather pen on parchment so they can mail one to every birfoon, it would have no impact on the validity of the information the State of Hawaii has verified.

  201. avatar
    Craig July 20, 2012 at 3:44 am #

    But on the other hand, all those birthers would have some awesome wall art… those dudes have exquisite handwriting!

  202. avatar
    justlw July 20, 2012 at 3:44 am #

    JPotter: You just have to select “Use MRC Compression?” under the “Scan to PDF” settings.

    Not on all the machines I have access to. My impression that it’s an extra-cost option, and only available on color models.

  203. avatar
    richCares July 20, 2012 at 3:45 am #

    Acrobat 10X Pro and Foxpro Phantom allow you to see layers in a PDF file, In Acrobat Pro go to Views, then Show/Hide then Navigation pane followed by layers.
    Load the White House PDF (which is an image file) and count the layers HOW MANY?
    Being an image file you can’t select any text at all, why is that?

  204. avatar
    Lupin July 20, 2012 at 3:50 am #

    OT I once wrote a program in Fortran when I was in college (1974) for an IBM 1130 with punched cards, etc. You kids get off my lawn! 🙂

    Like most normal people (unlike autistic birthers like yon) I accept that the proper issuing authority is the final arbiter of information. If the proper Hawaiian authorities say that Obama was born there (which appears to be confirmed by a mountain of other evidence), then that’s what it is. There is in fact no other likely scenario.

  205. avatar
    justlw July 20, 2012 at 3:56 am #

    richCares: there is no text in this PDF file!
    so what are those silly layers?

    First, it has nothing to do with OCR. Second, they’re not “layers.” That’s where the wheels start to come off on their theories.

    The document has one image of the entire document, rendered in color.

    It then has 8 additional images of different regions of the document, where the MRC algorithms determined there was black imagery (not necessarily text!) that could be hypercompressed into monochrome rather than full color.

    As I understand it, the algorithm then goes back to the full color image and “reserves” those black regions by making them white. That’s why when you remove something like the date stamp region, you can still see it there in the main image, but only in white.

    (The CCP and “white dot” brigade never really show you this effect on the main image. They actually seem to be hiding it, in fact, leaving the viewer/reader with the impression that the main image is only of the safety paper background. Wonder why.)

    When you go to view or print the document, the PDF rendering software places the black regions where they belong on the document.

    These algorithms are of an “idiot savant” level of intelligence very common in computer science: they’re very good at recognizing these compressible regions, but have no idea what they are to humans. These particular algorithms, for example, do not do OCR.

    The algorithms also consider dark or light grey to be “color,” not “black,” so big swaths of what you or I would consider “black text” are left on the main image. The CCP never shows you that, either.

  206. avatar
    G July 20, 2012 at 3:57 am #

    LOL! I did!!! I remember programming in LOGO and doing that on an Apple II+ back in the early 80’s…

    justlw:
    And did you ever use LOGO to make the turtle turn left… then right?!?!?

  207. avatar
    G July 20, 2012 at 4:03 am #

    Great analogy!!! Anyone with a real programming background (at least in either procedural or object oriented programming) should easily grasp the concept of pointers!

    If “Yon” can’t grasp this, then his programming claims are one more area of his statements that fall apart…

    If he *can* grasp this, then how does he explain his irrational fixation on irrelevant PDFs, that have ZERO to do with the actual physical document and its DATA, which have been REPEATEDLY vouched for by the HI DOH… i.e, the ONLY offficial authority on a BC from that state…

    So please “Yon”… what is your explanation here???

    justlw: Being a programmer, do you understand the difference between an object, and a pointer to the object?

    A pointer is not the object. Even ifa pointer is corrupt, it does not corrupt the object itself.If you change the value of a pointer, you are not changing the object.

    This is why, no matter what flaws you think you see in the PDF, it has no bearing on the validity of the president’s birth certificate.None.

  208. avatar
    G July 20, 2012 at 4:07 am #

    *facepalm*

    Wow… well, you’ve just outed your gullibility there. If “American Stinker” is your idea of a credible source, then you’ve just proved that “thinking” is not your strong point, to put it mildly.
    ” ”
    Why don’t you give us links to National Enquirer articles about Bat Boy or “Elvis’ Baby Found on the Moon” next…

    *sheesh*

    Yon:
    Here Is another side too it. You people have more time then I do.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/07/m-new_obama_birth_certificate_forgery_proof_in_the_layers.html

  209. avatar
    justlw July 20, 2012 at 4:12 am #

    Yon: Here Is another side too it. You people have more time then I do.

    And this may shock you, but we’ve kinda seen it before. This is what you’re looking for (or not looking for, depending on how strong your confirmation bias is):

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/59087668/Response-to-Zebest

    (I’m basing this on JPotter’s imprecation — I didn’t actually follow the American Thinker link, because their logo always makes me feel like I’m barging in on Uncle Sam at a particularly private moment.)

  210. avatar
    Keith July 20, 2012 at 4:21 am #

    justlw: Yeah, but did you ever write COMPASS subroutines to interface with a Fortran 77 main program, using overlay capsules, so the PPU would accept single character input?

    I didn’t do that, but I have a COMPASS manual on my bookshelf. Interfacing COMPASS with FORTRAN77 (or any compiler on a 6000 series (or up) machine was trivial. I loved the CDC machines.

    Unlike on an 360 series (or up) machine where you had to jump through hoops to interface two different languages. I wrote several FORTRAN subroutines that needed to be used in CICS, but the IBM manuals basically said it couldn’t be done. I just had to write a stub that would initialize the FORTRAN runtime environment and then find the anchor point for the I/O routines and modify the Operating System wait with a CICS wait. Easy! It only took me 6 weeks of reading, arguing with the CICS support people in Hursley, and reading the compiler runtime library code off microfiche. But then after that it was easy to fake the FORTRAN into reading multiple volume tapes and records longer than 256 bytes long. We had an OLD compiler and the boss would spring for the new one; the 1970 Census tapes were multi-volume and had big records our FORTRAN choked on both. And of course our voter precinct project wanted to read the tapes with SPSS which was, of course, just a library of FORTRAN subroutines at the time.

  211. avatar
    G July 20, 2012 at 4:24 am #

    LOL! I remember my dad bringing home punchcards and 10 inch floppy disks! Thankfully, punch cards were going out of style by the time I had to do any mainframe coding. I did have to fix and write several FORTRAN programs and mainframe Assembly programs on a Prime mainframe back in the day…that wasn’t fun. Particularly as I only knew x8086 Assembler at that time, and the registers were MUCH different for messing with the bit buckets. I also hadn’t learned FORTRAN and just had to pick it up on the fly…with deadlines. So no, not fun memories at all. …But at least I only had the good fortune of only having to use 80-column sheets to code things out in advance and only worry about placement issues and thankfully *not* punch cards… egads!

    Lupin: OT I once wrote a program in Fortran when I was in college (1974) for an IBM 1130 with punched cards, etc. You kids get off my lawn!

  212. avatar
    Keith July 20, 2012 at 4:28 am #

    Lupin:
    OT I once wrote a program in Fortran when I was in college (1974) for an IBM 1130 with punched cards, etc. You kids get off my lawn!

    Like most normal people (unlike autistic birthers like yon) I accept that the proper issuing authority is the final arbiter of information. If the proper Hawaiian authorities say that Obama was born there (which appears to be confirmed by a mountain of other evidence), then that’s what it is. There is in fact no other likely scenario.

    I wrote my first FORTRAN program on an IBM 1401 in 1968. My older brother was working on a newer 1130 at the U of Arizona Lunar and Planetary Lab.

    The 1401 FORTRAN compiler was much better than the 1130 FORTRAN compiler. The 1401 had a logical IF, the 1130 didn’t.

  213. avatar
    foreigner July 20, 2012 at 6:49 am #

    gorefan: There are other Hawaiian BCs on the net were Portugese/English/German is listed as race. It is whatever the parents put on the BC.

    what pencilmarks did those have ?

  214. avatar
    Majority Will July 20, 2012 at 6:58 am #

    Yon:
    Here Is another side too it. You people have more time then I do.

    Citing americanthinker on anything is like citing Ronald McDonald’s expertise on particle physics.

  215. avatar
    Majority Will July 20, 2012 at 7:01 am #

    Yon: I am slow

    Honesty from a birther is rare.

  216. avatar
    Lupin July 20, 2012 at 7:31 am #

    Boy, we sure are a bunch of old farts!

  217. avatar
    Craig July 20, 2012 at 8:22 am #

    Majority Will: Citing americanthinker on anything is like citing Ronald McDonald’s expertise on particle physics.

    I don’t know about you, but gravity always feels heavier after eating at McD’s. I wonder if they’re mixing Higgs Bosons with the ketchup when nobody’s looking…

  218. avatar
    Majority Will July 20, 2012 at 9:10 am #

    Craig: I don’t know about you, but gravity always feels heavier after eating at McD’s.I wonder if they’re mixing Higgs Bosons with the ketchup when nobody’s looking…

    That’s what makes it zingy.

  219. avatar
    El Diablo Negro July 20, 2012 at 9:31 am #

    McD’s fries puts my digestion in fast-forward mode. Thus, lessening the effect of gravity.

    Craig: I don’t know about you, but gravity always feels heavier after eating at McD’s.

  220. avatar
    y_p_w July 20, 2012 at 9:55 am #

    Majority Will: Citing americanthinker on anything is like citing Ronald McDonald’s expertise on particle physics.

    There was an episode of Futurama where a member of the Harlem Globetrotters was also a distinguished particle physicist.

    However, that doesn’t apply to americanthinker.

  221. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG July 20, 2012 at 11:21 am #

    El Diablo Negro:
    McD’s fries puts my digestion in fast-forward mode. Thus, lessening the effect of gravity.

    Depends. For some it McD’s acts as a hostile laxative.

  222. avatar
    gorefan July 20, 2012 at 11:23 am #

    Yon: With the quality equipment and resolutions of today, I cannot see how we can have 1 bit depth and then chromigraphic errors right next to each other on the same layer.

    Have you seen the high resolution copy of the BC?

  223. avatar
    justlw July 20, 2012 at 12:13 pm #

    Keith: I didn’t do that, but I have a COMPASS manual on my bookshelf. …

    There were giants in those days.

  224. avatar
    JPotter July 20, 2012 at 12:33 pm #

    justlw: Not on all the machines I have access to. My impression that it’s an extra-cost option, and only available on color models.

    Well, naturally, justlw, from the your post-referencing a “correctly configured” machine, I took it as a given you meant one with the appropriate software and hardware, and that by “configured” you were referring to a question of settings.

    It isn’t limited to color machines, but is not offered on all models.

  225. avatar
    Jim July 20, 2012 at 1:38 pm #

    Keith: I wrote my first FORTRAN program on an IBM 1401 in 1968. My older brother was working on a newer 1130 at the U of Arizona Lunar and Planetary Lab.

    The 1401 FORTRAN compiler was much better than the 1130 FORTRAN compiler. The 1401 had a logical IF, the 1130 didn’t.

    OMG…the memories of the old card-punch days! Remembering the hard way to always carry rubber bands. Proof reading the cards to make sure there were no typos so you didn’t have to stand in line AGAIN to get them compiled. The joy of finding the unknown card-punch machine in the furnace room in the basement of the old engineering library. The end-of-semester punch card bonfire and kegger. Oh yes, those were the days. Kids have it soooooo easy!!! 😀

  226. avatar
    Whatever4 July 20, 2012 at 2:43 pm #

    Yon:
    I presented you with a legal seal on a Hawaii Bc that was within the Bc document and you do not accept that.

    OK, here’s a legal seal outside the BC document. Two, actually. The Nordyke Twins.
    http://obamanotqualified.com/images/nordyke-twins-1961-hawaian-birth-certificate-01c.jpg

  227. avatar
    Whatever4 July 20, 2012 at 3:17 pm #

    foreigner: what pencilmarks did those have ?

    There are very few Hawaii LFBCs on the web. (I count less than 10?) There used to be many more COLBs (vernacular for Short forms, even though the Long Forms are also labeled COLB). Either people have pulled their documents off the web for privacy reasons or the massive volume of Obama-related BC images has overwhelmed Google and Bing. Here’s one: Filipino Spanish http://hawaiiartbymichelle.com/publishImages/biography~~element3.JPG

  228. avatar
    DP July 20, 2012 at 5:12 pm #

    Whatever4: There are very few Hawaii LFBCs on the web. (I count less than 10?) There used to be many more COLBs (vernacular for Short forms, even though the Long Forms are also labeled COLB). Either people have pulled their documents off the web for privacy reasons or the massive volume of Obama-related BC images has overwhelmed Google and Bing. Here’s one: Filipino Spanish http://hawaiiartbymichelle.com/publishImages/biography~~element3.JPG

    The exact placement of the seal?

    What a bunch of total nincompoops. But I suppose everything is laden with heavy significance to people who don’t understand anything. Or don’t want to understand.

  229. avatar
    predicto July 20, 2012 at 6:41 pm #

    Well, I threw my punch cards on the floor, and went off to hunt the wumpus with my crooked arrows

  230. avatar
    Keith July 20, 2012 at 8:25 pm #

    justlw: There were giants in those days.

    Seymour Cray Rules! (or did until 1996 I believe)

    Jim: OMG…the memories of the old card-punch days!

    A good friend of mine, kept a wad of punch cards in his pocket for writing notes on until the day he died a month and a half ago. (RIP Maurie).

    His wife and I went through all his cards to get his bank account passwords and wine subscriptions and association memberships and insurance policies and TAB account and basically all those life things that you don’t think about until after you are gone and your relatives don’t have a clue about how to pick up the pieces. He was meticulous in recording everything, and it was straight forward.

    He had about year and a half to plan it from when he was diagnosed, but I suspect most of us don’t have that time and don’t want to think about it.

  231. avatar
    linda July 20, 2012 at 8:36 pm #

    All this talk makes me feel old(er). In college in the early 80’s, a programming professor with a mean streak assign a program to be written on punchcards, on obsolete machines the university had hung on to. Ugh!

    G: LOL! I did!!! I remember programming in LOGO and doing that on an Apple II+ back in the early 80′s…

  232. avatar
    jdkinpa July 21, 2012 at 12:31 am #

    I’ve had a grand old time reading through all of this thread. (I noticed John didn’t stay long).. Unless I missed it somewhere; no one has commented on this: “”Insiders will know what that yellow thing is and how it adds to my credibility. Not just anyone has one of those in his drawer.””

    There are many insiders and I dare say ‘old timers’ that should know what it is. Having worked in computer rooms in Germany, Netherlands, and the USA beginning in 1974, I was a 74D and trained in AIT on the UNIVAC 1005, then had to learn to run an IBM 1401 at my first duty station. We had trays of IBM cards we used for a process called SORT 7. We kept two just in case you dropped a tray.

    I hope that my eyes are still able to pick up the distinct shape of this often annoying but very important tool of the trade.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tapeprotection.jpg

    If I’m wrong them my eyes just aren’t what they used to be…

  233. avatar
    misha July 21, 2012 at 12:55 am #

    jdkinpa: I was a 74D and…AIT on the UNIVAC 1005, then…an IBM 1401…of IBM…for…SORT 7.

    I have to take my M-O-U-S-E to the ER for some IDAKNOW.

    mishainphilly

  234. avatar
    richCares July 21, 2012 at 12:55 am #

    Historiandude says to Doc see link:
    “This is not true. Hawaii participated in the 1960 natality report, which can be seen here: link to 1960 Natality Report In the document Dr. Conspiracy claims to have obtained by a freedom of information request, it gives separate coding categories for Aleut, Eskimo, Filipino, Hawaiian and Part-Hawaiian, supposedly used in 1960 and 1961. The 1960 Natality Report says that those classifications were simply lumped together as “other races”
    .http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2012/07/joe_arpaios_new_birther_eviden.php

    Yet the 1960 report he links to http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsus/nat60_1.pdf says:
    Race and color
    Births in the United States in 1960 are classified for vital statistics into white, Negro, American Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Aleut, Eskimo, Hawaiian and Part-Hawaiian (combined), and “other nonwhite.”
    .
    Did he lie or couldn’t find it as you can’t search for text in a image file
    The word “combined” refers to Hawaiian and Part Hawaiian
    .
    The 1960 Natality Report is a image file of 228 pages, being an image file you can’t search h for text unless you OCR it, which I did.

  235. avatar
    justlw July 21, 2012 at 6:31 pm #

    jdkinpa: Unless I missed it somewhere; no one has commented on this

    I did. It made me happy to know that the letter couldn’t be overwritten.

    EDIT: Whoops! Sorry, that’d be “ring out.” It’s been a while.

  236. avatar
    Rickey July 22, 2012 at 1:25 am #

    Yon:

    Maybe you can explain to me why LEE Verna did not sign their certificates when she appears to be the signature still in 1962?

    It is irrational to believe that Verna Lee was the only person authorized to sign birth certificates at the time. What do you suppose happened when she went on vacation or if she became ill? Do you believe that the birth certificates were then allowed to simply pile up until she returned to work?

  237. avatar
    nbc July 22, 2012 at 1:56 am #

    Yon: What about the codes where he was born in a place other than a hospital? Codes which appear on the left, education and other codes.

    He was born in Kapiolani hospital, did you miss the entry on the form? Geez…

  238. avatar
    Plutodog July 22, 2012 at 3:02 pm #

    I recognized it as well from old days working on a Navy communications mainframe but I sure couldn’t place it (and can’t remember the name of that old bay of equipment either). Old age is catching up, maybe.

  239. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny July 22, 2012 at 5:57 pm #

    justlw: Being a programmer, do you understand the difference between an object, and a pointer to the object?

    A pointer is not the object. Even ifa pointer is corrupt, it does not corrupt the object itself.If you change the value of a pointer, you are not changing the object.

    This is why, no matter what flaws you think you see in the PDF, it has no bearing on the validity of the president’s birth certificate.None.

    Now that one is funny. And also brings back memories.

  240. avatar
    Northland10 July 22, 2012 at 8:52 pm #

    justlw: Being a programmer, do you understand the difference between an object, and a pointer to the object?

    A pointer is not the object. Even ifa pointer is corrupt, it does not corrupt the object itself.If you change the value of a pointer, you are not changing the object.

    This is why, no matter what flaws you think you see in the PDF, it has no bearing on the validity of the president’s birth certificate.None.

    A mistake in building a Crystal report does not change the data but just try to explain that to some users, even after they looked at the correct data in the CRM.

  241. avatar
    JPotter July 22, 2012 at 11:40 pm #

    Northland10: A mistake in building a Crystal report does not change the data but just try to explain that to some users, even after they looked at the correct data in the CRM.

    Recall Orly’s recent revelation that tons of voters registered in CA were born on 1/1/1850 😉