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Cold Case Posse: backed into a corner

In the ongoing saga of the crumbling credibility of the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office, Sheriff Arpaio, and their “Cold Case Posse” led by Mike Zullo, we find some backpedaling, actually backing into a corner.

I showed in my two articles that the Cold Case Posse used a race code table as the centerpiece of their recent press conference, and the code table they showed was a fake (a different table from another year).

The CCP is making noises like they used the code table from 1968 as a convenience instead of the real code table from 1961 that they claimed it was. This makes no sense. Why would they even have tables from the wrong year if they had the right year, and how, if it is the same, is it more convenient to show a fake rather than the real one? However, it’s worse than that. Not only did they use a fake from 1968, they ALSO used a fake from 1969 later in the video! How is it convenience to get two fake tables from 7 and 8 years in the future instead of using a real one?

In this same video, the CCP claims that the records were coded for the purpose of receiving federal money for the data. Here’s what they said in the video:

It’s now known that these markings indicate a document has been coded for vital statistic recording purposes. Though states were paid only pennies per document by the federal government for their work, the task was well worth the effort as federal funding was and still is tied to population.

That, however, is not true of 1961 (although it is true today). Here is what The 1961 Vital Statistics of the US – Volume 1: Natality (Page 5-3) says about who coded the federal data:

With the exceptions noted in the next paragraph [California, Michigan, Georgia and New York], natality tabulations for 1961 are based on information obtained from microfilm copies of the original certificates. These copies were received from the registration offices of all States, certain cities, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands. The statistical information on these records was edited, classified [i.e. coded], placed on punchcards, and tabulated in the National Vital Statistics Division (NVSD).

This is an important point. The Cold Case Posse believed that the State of Hawaii coded the date for federal use, that it was coded based on a federal table, and that the 1968 federal table was the same as the 1961 table. Of course, I proved in my two articles that the 1968 table was not the same as the 1961 table and was not the table used by the federal government for 1961 tabulations.

In fact, I noted back in my March 2012 article on the codes that there were items coded that corresponded to no field in the federal data set, indicating coding by Hawaii for its own use. Further, the federal statistics were based on even-numbered certificates only, and there would have been no reason to code Obama’s odd-numbered form. All the evidence points to the fact that the penciled notations on the 1961 birth certificates were done by the State of Hawaii for their own purposes independently of the federal government, although they certainly could have used federal race codes.

It is clear from the video that the Cold Case Posse did not know this. However, since their faux 1961 code table has been exposed and shown not to be a 1961 federal table, they are claiming that they are uniquely Hawaiian codes, and that they have had a copy of these codes all along, and that they magically match the 1968 federal codes years before the federal codes came out. Discounting the time travel theory altogether, there are further objections to the claim that they have Hawaiian codes:

  1. They believed that Hawaii coded the forms to earn federal money. If they had Hawaiian instruction manual, they would have know that the coding was different from the federal coding.
  2. The CCP codes don’t match what the State of Hawaii has certified as an accurate birth certificate for Barack Obama.
  3. They haven’t produced the code book they claim to have. Rather than publishing the book and ending any question, they let the question fester while changing their story.

I think the Cold Case Posse, and by implication Jerome Corsi have been well and fully caught. They aren’t going to produce the 1961 manual they claim to have because they don’t have it. Instead of “Where’s the Birth Certificate?” it’s going to be “Where’s the 1961 vital statistics instructions?” I have a copy of Barack Obama’s birth certificate, but the Cold Case Posse does not have the 1961 Hawaiian birth data coding manual.

I would suggest that the CCP look for a scapegoat real fast.


Update:

I commented preceding that the CCP has changed its story. A lot of what I meant comes from the comments made by CCP video producer Mark Gillar on his video at the TeaPartyPowerHour YouTube channel.

We start from the video itself that says on the screen: “The Posse is Confident it has the Correct Manual.” But did they have any 1961 manual at all? The the video narration references “the 1961 vital statistics instruction manual.” So at one point, they said they had the 1961 manual.

Gillar comments:

We have the 1961 manual. Stop making an ass out of yourself. The 9 code for race means not stated. 2 would have been Negro. We have the V.K.L. recording and the manual.  Only a few left in the US. Hard to get. I know you must be upset about it.

Gillar then says:

According to Dr. C. Not according to the government officials from MD.

Do you really think this would have been placed in the PC if MD officials hadn’t provided the posse with documentation of the meaning of the 9.

This is the same claim that Johannson and Crosby made to explain where they got their manual, from “Maryland”. However, everyone who has claimed to have that manual has shown a false image from something else, except me. I had the real 1961 federal manual with different codes.

Now the story changes. Gillar says:

The one thing I can tell you is that according to the cold case posse who spoke with a government official who referenced the 1961 manual, both list 2 as negro and 9 and as not stated. The CCP said they have this confirmation documented. I have no reason not to believe them. Since we both agree that code 2 was for negro in both the 1961 and 1969 manuals why wouldn’t his father be coded a 2? There’s nothing confusing about his appearance is there? Is he purple, blue, pink?

So where did the manual go? I said that they didn’t have a manual, and now they are essentially admitting it.

I just sent the following email to Jerome Corsi:

I understand you have been reading my recent blog articles and finding them amusing. Let me get serious for a minute.

In September of last year, you published an image of a 1961 birth certificate on WorldNetDaily.

http://www.wnd.com/2011/09/342937/

The race for Father and Mother, while redacted, still show the code value of "3" for both. If you folks at the Cold Case Posse presented honest codes used by Hawaii in 1961, then those race entries would be [American] "Indian."

So now you know.

Sleep well.

Kevin Davidson
(Dr. Conspiracy)


Update 2

The story has changed again according to a new article at WorldNetDaily:

“The values were curious,” Zullo told Klein. “If you look at Mr. Obama Sr.’s race, the box says ‘African,’ and that’s always been a point of contention, because in the ’60s ‘African’ wasn’t a race designator. Next to it is the number 9. We learned the statistical codings in the 1960s for the federal government – and actually through the remainder of the decade – number 9 stands for unstated or information not supplied.”

No claim of 1961 codes now and no “vital statistics instruction manual”, but that the general federal codes were consistent across the decade justifying their claim that it was OK to use the 1968 manual. Well that ain’t gonna fly.

75 Responses to Cold Case Posse: backed into a corner

  1. avatar
    richCares July 22, 2012 at 3:50 pm #

    The frog marching was expected to start when Joe identified the forger (or is that froger), but no such evidence surfaced. However, the Trump investigators were found hiding in a leper colony in Molokai, their findings were turned over to Sheriff Joe, as they were in a bat cave most of their findings consisted of droppings, so frog marching was cancelled. Live with it john.

  2. avatar
    JPotter July 22, 2012 at 3:54 pm #

    Zullo claimed to have used Corsi as a go-between to talk to Lee over the phone. He stated Corsi told her he was a “reporter”. There was no mention of getting codes on that phone call. More importantly, why would Lee just happen to have 50-yr old work materials at her home? Random souvenirs?!? (Ha). A reporter worth a flip would have to insist on seeing the manual itself and getting a copy.

    Can you cite these birther claims, Doc? Or are you referring to randomcomments here and there?

  3. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 22, 2012 at 4:07 pm #

    JPotter: Zullo claimed to have used Corsi as a go-between to talk to Lee over the phone. He stated Corsi told her he was a “reporter”. There was no mention of getting codes on that phone call.

    Questions:

    Is this Zullo talking at the news conference? I haven’t watched the whole thing.

    Has the audio/transcript of the conversation been posted anywhere or is Zullo the only source?

  4. avatar
    Scientist July 22, 2012 at 4:13 pm #

    So the posse says it’s OK to show a phony document for “convenience”. So why were they bothering to investigate whether Obama showed a “phony” birth certificate, since that is perfectly OK by their own admission?

  5. avatar
    Bernard July 22, 2012 at 4:14 pm #

    I am sure that Zullo did not get the codes from Verna Lee. I cannot imagine a 95 year old woman keeping codes from 50 years ago, esp if they had been repeatedly superseded, and, even if she had them in the attic or basement, I cannot see her rummaging around to find them for Zullo – who evidently communicated with her only by phone and pretending to be a reporter.

    However, if this is Zullo’s excuse then it immediately undermines his own claim that Lee’s memory is still sharp.

    So far, Crazy Joe’s birther crusade has not attracted the assistance of any other, genuine, law enforcement agencies.

  6. avatar
    Paper July 22, 2012 at 4:34 pm #

    I could see it, in theory–keeping old manuals. I have old manuals and work materials from at least twenty odd years ago. Some more worth keeping than others. But I don’t know about the likelihood of them being handed over in some random way. Still, if they had them from her, you would think they would use them.

    Bernard:
    I am sure that Zullo did not get the codes from Verna Lee.I cannot imagine a 95 year old woman keeping codes from 50 years ago, esp if they had been repeatedly superseded, and, even if she had them in the attic or basement, I cannot see her rummaging around to find them for Zullo – who evidently communicated with her only by phone and pretending to be a reporter.

  7. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 22, 2012 at 4:45 pm #

    I can appreciate your question, because I too would like to read something more official. Primarily I am relying on the discussion, and particularly comments by Mark Gillar (the video producer) on his YouTube channel, on the Video #2 linked in my story.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yft0kz_fbnA&feature=player_embedded

    I may or may not be relying on unpublished comments from an email exchange between RC and Jerome Corsi.

    JPotter: Can you cite these birther claims, Doc? Or are you referring to randomcomments here and there?

  8. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 22, 2012 at 4:52 pm #

    Most likely. I had a few old manuals I kept for sentimental reasons in my office that were maybe 30 years old, but when I retired I pretty much threw everything out. But you have get out of the birther universe for a minute. Obama was born in Hawaii, and his birth certificate is authentic. Therefore, whatever code “9” is, it is almost certainly correct.

    Again, I do not think that Corsi or Zullo intentionally used a code table that they thought didn’t represent the data they were looking at, but they lied about which table they had and tried to make an iron-clad determination my misrepresenting the evidence, as the Cold Case Posse has done with ALL of the things they presented.

    Bernard: I am sure that Zullo did not get the codes from Verna Lee. I cannot imagine a 95 year old woman keeping codes from 50 years ago, esp if they had been repeatedly superseded, and, even if she had them in the attic or basement, I cannot see her rummaging around to find them

  9. avatar
    Scientist July 22, 2012 at 4:58 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Most likely. I had a few old manuals I kept for sentimental reasons in my office that were maybe 30 years old, but when I retired I pretty much threw everything out.

    Those manuals were the property of the state and it would actually be illegal for an employee to take them home upon retiring. Not saying it couldn’t happen, but she would potentially be risking her pension and every state worker I have ever known values their pension above life iitself.

  10. avatar
    Jim July 22, 2012 at 5:04 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I can appreciate your question, because I too would like to read something more official. Primarily I am relying on the discussion, and particularly comments by Mark Gillar (the video producer) on his YouTube channel, on the Video #2 linked in my story.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yft0kz_fbnA&feature=player_embedded

    I may or may not be relying on unpublished comments from an email exchange between RC and Jerome Corsi.

    Well, Doc, you would have to assume that they were collecting this data to use in some kind of reporting. So, there is probably a Hawaii Department of Health annual report for 1961 somewhere which does the breakdowns. I’ve searched the web, but I can only locate back to 1971. There’s also been other studies that used the data. In fact, one very interesting study was done by Eleanor Nordyke for the East-West Center on Population.

    http://www.eastwestcenter.org/about-ewc/search-this-site/Nordyke

    I cannot bring up the book, but in researching I found this very interesting article…

    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2008/Dec/22/ln/hawaii812220320.html

  11. avatar
    gorefan July 22, 2012 at 5:19 pm #

    Since there was no field on the standard Certificate of Live Birth for the child’s race, would the States coded the race of the parents and the Feds derived the code for the child from the parents code?

  12. avatar
    HistorianDude July 22, 2012 at 5:40 pm #

    gorefan:
    Since there was no field on the standard Certificate of Live Birth for the child’s race, would the States coded the race of the parents and the Feds derived the code for the child from the parents code?

    Almost certainly. By 1968 they have even made that the formal process, since most (all?) birth certificates did not carry the race of the child.

    In the 1968 natality file key, they are explicit that Race of the Child is “Determined from Parents race.”

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/image_thumb31.png

  13. avatar
    Keith July 22, 2012 at 5:46 pm #

    The statistical information on these records was edited, classified [i.e. coded], placed on punchcards, and tabulated in the National Vital Statistics Division (NVSD).

    I didn’t know that. I assumed Hawai’i did it.

    That means the codes could actually be from the late 1990’s or when ever Hawai’i actually loaded them into their database. I’m not sure I could justify encoding them in 1961 if it wasn’t for the Feds and therefore they might as well do the whole thing.

    They would have had IBM 729 tape drives available (maybe 3.5MB per 2000 ft tape) I think. They would also have had IBM 650 disk drives (holding 6MB per drive) The 1405 and 1301 would not be available to them until at least early 1962 (both were announced in 61, but would not have been available).

    Hawai’i may well have been an early adopter for IBM so they might have got early access to the new disk drives. I expect it would have been a plum assignment for SE’s to work on the new drives in Honolulu, and the new State would have had vendors crawling all over the purchasing offices in order to be first in line. Now that I think about it that way, Hawai’i may well have had the 1405’s for use with their 1401 computer.

    So OK. The combination of a new State wanting to prove it is as modern or more than its mainland brothers, vendors clamoring for access, probably lots of Federal grant money to improve its processes, yeah, I guess that would do it. They may not have had a specific NEED to computerize their BC’s quite yet for Vital Records purposes, but they would have a fair bit of incentive to do it for statistical analysis.

    But what would be the point of sending microfiche to DC to be encoded there? Sounds nuts to me.

  14. avatar
    Thinker July 22, 2012 at 5:46 pm #

    Doc: So, assuming that you are correct and only even-numbered birth certificates were coded for federal purposes, and that coding was done by the federal government based on microfilm copies, how do you account for the coding on the original of Obama’s LFBC? Did Hawaii code all birth certificates for their own purposes?

    Regardless of what the CCP defenders are saying now, Zullo unequivocally said that the coding was done by the state of Hawaii for federal government statistics. Here’s what he said:

    “Back in 1960, birth certificates would come into the central location at the Department of Health in Hawaii. They would come in in what was known as regions or batches. Those documents were taken in, those documents were then looked at by a human being, this was 1960, and they were coded by hand with numerals that meant something to the federal government. The federal government required this because they would take that coded information which is of a numeric value and they would use it on magnetic tape for their census records and other statistical records that they needed. This document would have been coded and then according to Mrs. Lee, the document would have been rechecked by another employee of Department of Health, then signed by the registrar…”

  15. avatar
    Mary Adams July 22, 2012 at 6:14 pm #

    Bernard: I cannot imagine a 95 year old woman keeping codes from 50 years ago, esp if they had been repeatedly superseded

    Exactly. I cannot imagine someone 40 years younger remembering the codes that were in effect for a specific year unless it was their last on the job and even then, why waste brain space on something so useless?

  16. avatar
    Whatever4 July 22, 2012 at 7:02 pm #

    I agree that it looks like there was a completely different set of codes for Hawaii, and Hawaii coded every cert. We have so few LFBCs from any source. I know of 4 in August 1961 (3 odd, 1 even. Ah’nee, Obama, Nordyke, Nordyke) and they are all coded. From 1963, there’s the Alan BC, # unknown, coded. From 1962, the Edith Coates BC, Even #, not coded. Are there any others?

    The Alan BC has an R for usual occupation of the father.

    Has anyone heard of a Hawaii HUIP for the manual and/or statistical reports from Hawaii? If not, I’d like to make one.

    BTW Doc — is the Flag widget new? It’s great.

  17. avatar
    gorefan July 22, 2012 at 7:15 pm #

    Thinker: how do you account for the coding on the original of Obama’s LFBC?

    The states may have coded for themselves.

    A good example is the birth place of the parents.

    The Standard Certificate for Live Births labels the boxes (box 10 and box 15) for parents birth place as:

    Birth Place (State or Foreign Country)

    For Hawaii’s BC (box 11 and box 16):

    Birth Place (Island, State or Foreign Country)

    For Stanley Ann’s, The Nordyke mother and father the code is “a”.
    For Obama Sr. the code is 2
    For the girl born on August 23rd, 1961 the parents’ birthplace is codedis the code is 1.

    If Hawaii wasn’t keeping their own statistics then why code the parents birth place, as it doesn’t appear the Feds were coding it themselves.

  18. avatar
    gorefan July 22, 2012 at 7:28 pm #

    HistorianDude: Almost certainly

    That being the case, in the 1965 Vital Statistics when it says,

    “In 1965, as in years prior to 1964, ill-defined or not clearly identifiable races such as “oriental” or “yellow” were assigned to a specific category such as non-white, Chinese or Japanese.”

    They are talking about the parents’ race not the child’s.

  19. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 22, 2012 at 9:22 pm #

    Apparently, the Feds coded the data, and they would have looked at the text for Parent’s race. The 1961 Natality report gives the coding rules.

    gorefan: Since there was no field on the standard Certificate of Live Birth for the child’s race, would the States coded the race of the parents and the Feds derived the code for the child from the parents code?

  20. avatar
    donna July 22, 2012 at 9:34 pm #

    gorefan: If Hawaii wasn’t keeping their own statistics then why code the parents birth place, as it doesn’t appear the Feds were coding it themselves.

    this might help:

    The main reason why Hawaii demands racial identity on birth certificates is for the benefit of ethnic Hawaiians, who receive race-based benefits from more than 160 federally funded programs, numerous state-funded programs, and numerous private race-based institutions. All such programs are for ethnic Hawaiians exclusively, and require the beneficiaries to prove their racial identity.

    Approximately 20% of Hawaii’s people have at least one drop of Hawaiian native blood; i.e., at least one ancestor (probably of Tahitian heritage) who lived in Hawaii before Captain Cook’s arrival in 1778. Nearly all ethnic Hawaiians are of mixed race; and perhaps 3/4 of them have less than 1/4 Hawaiian native blood. Nevertheless, many ethnic Hawaiians (including those with very low native blood quantum) choose to identify themselves solely as “Native Hawaiian” as a matter of racial pride.

    If one parent has 1/8 native blood and the other has 1/16 native blood, and if they choose to list only “Native Hawaiian” as their race on their baby’s birth certificate, then the baby with 3/32 native blood will appear to be a “pure” native Hawaiian, making himself and his children appear to be eligible for a Hawaiian homestead.

    there’s more

    http://www.angelfire.com/big09a/BirthCertificatesRaceRequired.html

  21. avatar
    gorefan July 22, 2012 at 9:55 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Apparently, the Feds coded the data, and they would have looked at the text for Parent’s race. The 1961 Natality report gives the coding rules.

    So you’re saying the Feds didn’t even look at the “9”. Or were the rules outlined in the 1961 Natality Report followed by the States when they coded the parents?

    Also, did you see my question about the second race table in the 1961 Tape File Information?

  22. avatar
    gorefan July 22, 2012 at 9:58 pm #

    donna: The main reason why Hawaii demands racial identity on birth certificates is for the benefit of ethnic Hawaiians,

    I understand that but the fact that there are codes on fields not required by the Feds and not needed for the “Native Hawaiian Program” suggests that they were also keep birth statistics for their own analysis.

  23. avatar
    Graham Shevlin July 22, 2012 at 10:04 pm #

    What evidence is there that Verna Lee even exists, is still alive and that she was interviewed, and that the information contained in the CCP report and press conference is information that was revealed in an interview?

  24. avatar
    donna July 22, 2012 at 10:10 pm #

    Graham Shevlin:

    there IS a 95 year old verna lee located on … wait for it ….. malia st (obama’s daughter’s name is malia) – her phone # is even listed on line (or was when her name was announced)

    the rest? who knows? ….. any day now

  25. avatar
    ASK Esq July 22, 2012 at 10:19 pm #

    Gillar: “Since we both agree that code 2 was for negro in both the 1961 and 1969 manuals why wouldn’t his father be coded a 2? There’s nothing confusing about his appearance is there? Is he purple, blue, pink?”

    Perhaps I’m confused about when those codes were entered. I was under the impression that they were done after the fields on the form were completed, based on what was on the form. Thus, the “9” would have been in response to “African,” which could mean more than one thing. If so, how would the person (Ms. Lee, presumably) have known what Obama Sr. looked like?

  26. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 22, 2012 at 11:06 pm #

    So was Zullo lying in the video or is he lying now?

    The codes that the CCP put on the screen aren’t 1960 census codes any more than they are 1961 vital statistics codes. (Obama was born in 1961 and the next census wasn’t until 1970.)

    And besides, they don’t enter birth certificates into the census. Census records are who LIVES there, not who was BORN there.

    I have no problem believing Hawaii coded the data for its own use. Zullo is just now figuring that out. What he hasn’t figured out is how to explain his misrepresentation before, and how there is anything left of his “evidence” of fraud.

    Thinker: Regardless of what the CCP defenders are saying now, Zullo unequivocally said that the coding was done by the state of Hawaii for federal government statistics. Here’s what he said:

    “Back in 1960, birth certificates would come into the central location at the Department of Health in Hawaii. They would come in in what was known as regions or batches. Those documents were taken in, those documents were then looked at by a human being, this was 1960, and they were coded by hand with numerals that meant something to the federal government. The federal government required this because they would take that coded information which is of a numeric value and they would use it on magnetic tape for their census records and other statistical records that they needed. This document would have been coded and then according to Mrs. Lee, the document would have been rechecked by another employee of Department of Health, then signed by the registrar…”

  27. avatar
    JPotter July 22, 2012 at 11:19 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Is this Zullo talking at the news conference? I haven’t watched the whole thing.

    Has the audio/transcript of the conversation been posted anywhere or is Zullo the only source?

    Carl, yes, when I described Zullo’s claims, I was referring to statements he made in his 7/17 presentation. I am not 100% on what Zullo has said since …. Doc has been reporting on them.

    Full video from 7/17 is here:
    http://www.westernjournalism.com/watch-joe-arpaios-press-conference-live/

    The relevant section starts at 12:00. Later in the Q&A, he was asked about the nature of contact with VK Lee, that’s right at the 1-hour mark. Zullo’s justification of their approach on Lee is not to be missed. All Hawaiians distrust all police, y’know.
    __________

    My favorite quote, “Shee-yow uzzzz the …. micruh-fimm. Shee-yow uzzzz the …. micruh-fimm.” is at 53:00 😛

  28. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 22, 2012 at 11:28 pm #

    Unless she knew him personally, she could not have. “African” was entered at the hospital. Lee worked for the Health Department.

    ASK Esq: If so, how would the person (Ms. Lee, presumably) have known what Obama Sr. looked like?

  29. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 22, 2012 at 11:39 pm #

    There is a new article at WND where Zullo is interviewed by Aaron Klein.

    http://www.wnd.com/2012/07/secret-of-obamas-phantom-numbers-uncovered/

    The story has changed again.

    JPotter: Carl, yes, when I described Zullo’s claims, I was referring to statements he made in his 7/17 presentation. I am not 100% on what Zullo has said since …. Doc has been reporting on them.

  30. avatar
    JPotter July 22, 2012 at 11:46 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: by Aaron Klein.

    Ahhh, yes, Mr. Klein …. another author whose work is pimped by WND:
    http://www.wnd.com/2012/07/leaked-obamas-devastating-2nd-term-plans/

    Tight little hive of busy birther bees!

    LOL, Klein calls him “Mike Zulu”!

  31. avatar
    foreigner July 22, 2012 at 11:48 pm #

    it looks to me like Corsi et.al make things up.
    They aren’t just looking at the BC and examining it
    so to find odd things, driven by curiosity.
    They pick from the already known things and
    reflect how they could present it in a suitable
    (new) way so it looks good to support their case.
    The truth is not so interesting, the presentation is.
    Do they really believe their own stuff ?
    Of course, they shouldn’t make these silly mistakes, though.
    ————————————–
    Hawaii must have known, that they didn’t use federal codes.
    And they issued a statement about the press conference,
    but only talked about the “security threat” accusations.
    Why didn’t they point out the error with the codes ?
    They probably looked at the whole presentation
    when they issued a statement like that ?!?
    ————————————-
    now the Dr.C is getting all exited using many posts and bad
    words at Gillars youtube channel, “spamming” the internet
    as he said, emailing Corsi, using classical pictures.
    I think it’s inappropriate and exaggerated. Looks unprofessional,
    don’t you agree ? Or is it just the long history of “fights” with
    birthers that has this effect and people just don’t realize
    how they become abusive,childish,insulting, birther-like ?
    ——————————————

  32. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 22, 2012 at 11:51 pm #

    JPotter: My favorite quote, “Shee-yow uzzzz the …. micruh-fimm. Shee-yow uzzzz the …. micruh-fimm.” is at 53:00

    Oh lordy. I don’t know if my brain can handle an hour of this stuff…….but I’ll try.

  33. avatar
    justlw July 22, 2012 at 11:56 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Unless she knew him personally, she could not have. “African” was entered at the hospital. Lee worked for the Health Department.

    Previously, Mark Gillar unloads a snark bomb:

    Since we both agree that code 2 was for negro in both the 1961 and 1969 manuals why wouldn’t his father be coded a 2? There’s nothing confusing about his appearance is there? Is he purple, blue, pink?

    At least we know one thing without any doubt: Gillar’s color would be “maroon.”

    (source: B. Bunny)

  34. avatar
    JPotter July 23, 2012 at 12:00 am #

    CarlOrcas: Oh lordy. I don’t know if my brain can handle an hour of this stuff…….but I’ll try.

    Good luck! I play their foolery in the background while doing other things.

  35. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 23, 2012 at 12:00 am #

    foreigner: Looks unprofessional,
    don’t you agree

    No. I think he has shown admirable restraint in dealing some incredibly disreputable people.

  36. avatar
    justlw July 23, 2012 at 12:01 am #

    The values were curious,” Zullo told Klein. “If you look at Mr. Obama Sr.’s race, the box says ‘African,’ and that’s always been a point of contention, because in the ’60s ‘African’ wasn’t a race designator.

    “Gaining speed; losing altitude,” as my old boss used to say.

  37. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 23, 2012 at 12:08 am #

    1. I personally think Corsi and Zullo believe their own stuff. Corsi believes several crank ideas, including that petroleum is mineral and not plant based.

    2. I doubt on short notice that anyone in Hawaii new what codes they used. I asked the Department of Health once about what forms they used in 1961, and they told me that no one from that time still works there. If they didn’t have copies of standard forms, I doubt they kept a keypunch manual. Maybe, but even if they did, they wouldn’t have it for the Attorney General’s office in a few hours.

    3. This is a blog. it’s not a professional site. I write for my audience and for myself. I think the content is appropriate, or I wouldn’t publish it.

    “Spamming the Internet” consisted of 8 comments left. I only sent Corsi 1 email after he had insulted me several times in emails to other people. I was quite restrained in what I wrote Corsi, and never slighted him in any way.

    foreigner: it looks to me like Corsi et.al make things up.
    They aren’t just looking at the BC and examining it
    so to find odd things, driven by curiosity.
    They pick from the already known things and
    reflect how they could present it in a suitable
    (new) way so it looks good to support their case.
    The truth is not so interesting, the presentation is.
    Do they really believe their own stuff ?
    Of course, they shouldn’t make these silly mistakes, though.
    ————————————–
    Hawaii must have known, that they didn’t use federal codes.
    And they issued a statement about the press conference,
    but only talked about the “security threat” accusations.
    Why didn’t they point out the error with the codes ?
    They probably looked at the whole presentation
    when they issued a statement like that ?!?
    ————————————-
    now the Dr.C is getting all exited using many posts and bad
    words at Gillars youtube channel, “spamming” the internet
    as he said, emailing Corsi, using classical pictures.
    I think it’s inappropriate and exaggerated. Looks unprofessional,
    don’t you agree ? Or is it just the long history of “fights” with
    birthers that has this effect and people just don’t realize
    how they become abusive,childish,insulting, birther-like ?

  38. avatar
    nbc July 23, 2012 at 1:35 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: 1. I personally think Corsi and Zullo believe their own stuff. Corsi believes several crank ideas, including that petroleum is mineral and not plant based.

    Which matches the research findings about the ‘conservative mind’. Conservatives are far more likely to reject solid science when such science is seen as a threat to their comfort in over simplified views of the world.

    It’s fascinating to me how Christian fundamentalism, scientific ignorance and the conservative Tea Party need for authoritarianism are all genetically related.

  39. avatar
    nbc July 23, 2012 at 1:36 am #

    CarlOrcas: No. I think he has shown admirable restraint in dealing some incredibly disreputable people.

    Exactly…. But Corsi and others rightly are running scared as Dr C is exposing their true credentials.

  40. avatar
    nbc July 23, 2012 at 1:39 am #

    foreigner: Why didn’t they point out the error with the codes ?

    Perhaps because they may themselves not have documents that go back to 1961? Or because there is a limit to them exposing the Cold Case Posse’s ignorance on Hawaiian law?

    Far moe damning that some pencil scratches but now that the CCP has managed to show a 1968 while pretending it to be a 1961 document and have failed to show any evidence of a 1961 manual that supports them, it is time to FOIA Hawaii or get them to comment on this.
    It would be quite devastating to the foolish claims by the Cold Case Posse.

    Time to expose them for their shoddy research, once more.

  41. avatar
    foreigner July 23, 2012 at 2:25 am #

    Dr.Conspiracy,
    thanks for replying. Corsi must at least know that there are problems
    and he must know that he picks the things which he presents in a biased way.
    I.e., when he finds evidence for the contrary he is trying to hide it.
    Zullo – I got the impression that he does little own research but just presents
    what others (Corsi) tell him.
    Hawaii (those who issue the statements) may not know the exact codes, but they should
    know/should have figured out, that they had their own codes.

  42. avatar
    foreigner July 23, 2012 at 2:40 am #

    Hawaii may have ordered the race-codes by Hawaiian frequency,
    which would have been for births in 1961:
    ~5400 white,~4900 (Part-)Hawaiian.~3800 Japanese,~800 Chinese,
    ~200 Negro, ~40 Indian
    and maybe Filipino,Aleuts,Pacific Islanders,others,not stated/unknown
    Maybe the frequencies were different when they developed the system (1959 ?).
    The feds had separate categories for Hawaiians and Part-Hawaiians
    in the death certificates, but zero were put into the Hawaiian category.
    It was probably different when the system was developed, else they would
    not have introduced the extra category.
    ———————————————-
    1961 death certificates had:
    white,01,1199
    japanese,05,1060
    hawaiian,09,0
    part-hawaiian,10,436
    filipino,08,396
    chinese,04,213
    black,02,16
    indian,03,4
    aleut,06,0
    eskimo,07,1
    all other races,11,115
    ——————————————–
    there were 17000 births in Hawaii in 1961 but only 3400 deaths.
    This is probably because of the military and the population movements
    after WW2. (and not BC-tourism as suggested by Zullo)
    However, we have 4900 Part-Hawaiian births and only 436 deaths.
    This could be due to the privileges that Hawaiians got ?
    ——————————————————
    Apparently death statistics was given priority over birth statistics
    so my guess would be
    1=white
    2=Japanese
    3=Hawaiian
    4=Part-Hawaiian
    5=Filipino
    6=Chinese
    9=others/unknown

    while their instructions to the employees probably also included
    Aleut,Eskimo,Indian,Negro , just because the feds have it.
    But it would make some sense, if even Negros were subsumed
    under “others” for Hawaiian statistics.

  43. avatar
    nbc July 23, 2012 at 2:42 am #

    foreigner: Zullo – I got the impression that he does little own research but just presents what others (Corsi) tell him.

    Wow, is he not the lead ‘investigator’ of the Cold Case Posse but is taking his marching orders from Corsi?
    Something smells funny here. Or is it just me?

  44. avatar
    G July 23, 2012 at 2:44 am #

    I agree with you on all 3 points you just made and share your assessment.

    foreigner:
    Dr.Conspiracy,
    thanks for replying. Corsi must at least know that there are problems
    and he must know that he picks the things which he presents in a biased way.

    I.e., when he finds evidence for the contrary he is trying to hide it.
    Zullo – I got the impression that he does little own research but just presents
    what others (Corsi) tell him.

    Hawaii (those who issue the statements) may not know the exact codes, but they should
    know/should have figured out, that they had their own codes.

  45. avatar
    foreigner July 23, 2012 at 3:43 am #

    and Arpaio – I think he has no clue. He may well believe all these things
    that he says

  46. avatar
    G July 23, 2012 at 4:03 am #

    Hard to tell with him, especially with all the legal troubles he is currently facing. There are lots who suspect that his real motivation here is to distract from his other problems…

    foreigner:
    and Arpaio – I think he has no clue. He may well believe all these things
    that he says

  47. avatar
    Paper July 23, 2012 at 10:16 am #

    Try listening to any of many Corsi conversations with Alex Jones, and you will hear him making stuff up on the fly so to speak. To my ear, I hear the sound of glee in his voice as he segues from one piece of nonsense to the next. To my perception, he loves this kind of garbage, using his intelligence to such ends. He follows his bliss. What can you say.

    foreigner:
    Dr.Conspiracy,
    thanks for replying. Corsi must at least know that there are problems
    and he must know that he picks the things which he presents in a biased way.
    I.e., when he finds evidence for the contrary he is trying to hide it.
    Zullo – I got the impression that he does little own research but just presents
    what others (Corsi) tell him.
    Hawaii (those who issue the statements) may not know the exact codes, but they should
    know/should have figured out, that they had their own codes.

  48. avatar
    JPotter July 23, 2012 at 10:20 am #

    Paper: you will hear him making stuff up on the fly so to speak.

    “… Mike”.

  49. avatar
    Paper July 23, 2012 at 11:26 am #

    I can’t speak to other people’s insults. What I can say is that it is a false equivalence. Someone such as Corsi deserves no respect. That sometimes people go overboard with their language about him, and his colleagues of spirit, does not take away from the despicable nature of his actions.

    You yourself note that it looks to you like Corsi makes things up. I differ with Dr. C on Corsi believing what he says, or would make a distinction; I think he convinces himself as he says it or thinks. It’s the ego of his own thought that convinces him. He latches onto an idea, seduced by it, and rearranges the evidence around that idea. Makes him perfect as a political hit man, as he was with John Kerry. Corsi’s one of the key players behind “swift boating.” Your own description of how you think they are operating is in synch with this observation.

    I have known of Corsi since the swift boating days. This is his modus operandi.

    If this here were a courtroom, the judges would deal with him just as they do with someone like Mario Apuzzo. Dismiss without merit. End of story. Etc. That is professionalism at work. They don’t sit on the bench calling the fool a fool. But if you could read their minds, I’m fairly sure some or many of them would sound like commenters on a blog.

    There are certain people, such as Corsi, who are not operating in good faith. In the courtroom, we have seen what happens to them. But let’s take this to a personal level to be clear what we are talking about. I grew up in a neighborhood with at least one extreme gossip. Imagine such a person is your neighbor. They speak just like Corsi (or your pick of any of these gentle folk). But everything they say is about you. All of it as much a lie as with Corsi. I’m not saying to start calling your neighbor names. Let’s say you’ve already made your case directly and simply that the neighbor is lying and any of your honest neighbors understand what is going on, that you are actually upstanding and this other person is lying. Are you then really going to treat that neighbor’s utterances as if they deserve respect and the local equivalent of a Congressional hearing? You think that will have any affect? Or will you just be giving that neighbor power? What will you think as some other people start saying that maybe someone forged the time code on a camera at the local store, for instance. So that the camera footage demonstrating your utter innocence is not real. Nevermind that you also were vacationing in Spain at the time, have all the tickets to prove it, and all your new Spanish friends have sent you emails and come to visit you in Germany.

    Now be professional. I’m not saying you have to call any of those people names. But will you really answer their gossip tit for tat? The police mind you are on your side and have dismissed the issue. But your neighbor still calls for the police to examine the time code!

    That is what is going on here on the bigger political level.

    foreigner:
    it looks to me like Corsi et.al make things up.
    They aren’t just looking at the BC and examining it
    so to find odd things, driven by curiosity.
    They pick from the already known things and
    reflect how they could present it in a suitable
    (new) way so it looks good to support their case.
    The truth is not so interesting, the presentation is.
    Do they really believe their own stuff ?
    Of course, they shouldn’t make these silly mistakes, though.
    ————————————–
    Hawaii must have known, that they didn’t use federal codes.
    And they issued a statement about the press conference,
    but only talked about the “security threat” accusations.
    Why didn’t they point out the error with the codes ?
    They probably looked at the whole presentation
    when they issued a statement like that ?!?
    ————————————-
    now the Dr.C is getting all exited using many posts and bad
    words at Gillars youtube channel, “spamming” the internet
    as he said, emailing Corsi, using classical pictures.
    I think it’s inappropriate and exaggerated. Looks unprofessional,
    don’t you agree ? Or is it just the long history of “fights” with
    birthers that has this effect and people just don’t realize
    how they become abusive,childish,insulting, birther-like ?
    ——————————————

  50. avatar
    bovril July 23, 2012 at 12:25 pm #

    Speaking of Sooper Mario, “The second worst lawyer in the Western World”, he is currently spending an inordiante amount of electrons over at Amazon on the reviews of Lakin’s failure of a “book”

    http://www.amazon.com/review/R21QR4ZLQBQ2NN/ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0578086646&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=#wasThisHelpful

    If anyone wishes to see Birffon failure at it’s most pathetic, I recommend the comments…..

    Please feel free to say Hi…… 😎

  51. avatar
    Rickey July 23, 2012 at 1:06 pm #

    Graham Shevlin:
    What evidence is there that Verna Lee even exists, is still alive and that she was interviewed, and that the information contained in the CCP report and press conference is information that was revealed in an interview?

    I’m satisfied that they found the correct person, Her full name is Verna K. Lee and she was born in 1917. However, we do not know what she said to Corsi or what the context was, since the CCP has refused to release the tape recording which supposedly exists.

    Incidentally, Verna Lee lives in an upscale nursing home called a “continuing care retirement community.” We of course have no idea what her current physical and mental capabilities are.

  52. avatar
    nbc July 23, 2012 at 1:20 pm #

    bovril: Speaking of Sooper Mario, “The second worst lawyer in the Western World”, he is currently spending an inordiante amount of electrons over at Amazon on the reviews of Lakin’s failure of a “book”

    Why would he defend Lakin? Or is he?

    Mario is a funny guy whose musings have now been solidly rejected by multiple courts. It’s time he finds a new focus for his hobbies.

  53. avatar
    Arthur July 23, 2012 at 1:24 pm #

    bovril: Speaking of Sooper Mario, “The second worst lawyer in the Western World”, he is currently spending an inordiante amount of electrons over at Amazon on the reviews of Lakin’s failure of a “book”

    The Lord bless and keep Mario Apuzzo . . . far away from us!

  54. avatar
    bovril July 23, 2012 at 1:28 pm #

    Oh it’s all the usual re-treads of his debunked copy n’ paste BS about a majical 3rd category of US citizen. You know the speshul 14th Amendment citizen one.

    He is also getting somewhat hot under the collar when he is being regularly asked why he failed to follow his obligations as a purported officer of the court by failing to report criminal activity he witnessed.

    That would be the Mario post (on this very blog) where he stated that he witnessed a nice piece of theft, assault, criminal damage etc in an NJ Barnes and Noble and did bog all about it.

    Lies of course as no such activity occurred but hey, it’s Mario, what does one expect……

  55. avatar
    misha July 23, 2012 at 5:29 pm #

    Arthur: The Lord bless and keep Mario Apuzzo . . . far away from us!

    – “Rabbi, is there a blessing for the Tsar?”
    – “Of course. May the lord bless and keep the Tsar…far away from us.”
    Fiddler on the Roof

  56. avatar
    misha July 23, 2012 at 5:37 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: There is a new article at WND where Zullo is interviewed by Aaron Klein.

    Aaron Klein is a latter day concentration camp capo. Move along, nothing to see here.

  57. avatar
    Arthur July 23, 2012 at 6:13 pm #

    misha: Fiddler on the Roof

    I was remembering my college production.

  58. avatar
    Bernard July 23, 2012 at 8:05 pm #

    If Verna Lee lives at a retirement facility I am quite sure she doesn’t have the 1961 b/c codes on her bookshelf. So, apart from her insistence that the proper codes were entered during her watch, we have no specifics about Obama’s b/c. As these codes were penciled onto the copy of Obama’s b/c in the Hawaiian files, it would appear that the coding was done in Mrs. Lee’s office, not someplace federal.

    If the doctor’s report said the father was “African”, Mrs. Lee would probably not try to second-guess the designation but simply copy it (especially since it didn’t clarify that he wasn’t a white South Afrikander). Doctors are notorious for ignoring or never learning bureaucratic details.

    Will this craziness ever cease?!

  59. avatar
    misha July 23, 2012 at 8:18 pm #

    Bernard: Will this craziness ever cease?!

    No, because it is a form of mental illness. I am not being facetious.

  60. avatar
    G July 23, 2012 at 9:55 pm #

    I am in 100% agreement with you on this.

    misha: No, because it is a form of mental illness. I am not being facetious.

  61. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG July 23, 2012 at 10:01 pm #

    Oh its a mental illness for sure.
    There is some fancy name for it, but its basically the inability to accept reality. Not dementia, but something not far removed from it.

  62. avatar
    Bernard July 24, 2012 at 8:52 am #

    Speaking of mental illness, there is a particular delusion — there is a name for it but I cannot remember it now — in which the patient is convinced that the people in his household and/or workplace have somehow all been replaced by imposters or lookalikes or pod people. This with “the American President isn’t really American” seems to fit that category.

    My real concern, rather than laugh at this insanity, is that the repeated whispering (and shouting) campaign that Obama is a “usurper” and the like is going to inspire an assassination attempt.

  63. avatar
    misha July 24, 2012 at 9:01 am #

    Bernard: My real concern, rather than laugh at this insanity, is that the repeated whispering (and shouting) campaign that Obama is a “usurper” and the like is going to inspire an assassination attempt.

    Without any qualifications, that is precisely what Orly Taitz and her ilk are trying to do. Her attempts to inspire a lone wolf are transparent to anyone who is rational.

    If anything happens, I say in advance to her and her crowd: J’accuse.

  64. avatar
    Majority Will July 24, 2012 at 9:19 am #

    Bernard:
    Speaking of mental illness, there is a particular delusion — there is a name for it but I cannot remember it now — in which the patient is convinced that the people in his household and/or workplace have somehow all been replaced by imposters or lookalikes or pod people. This with “the American President isn’t really American” seems to fit that category.

    My real concern, rather than laugh at this insanity, is that the repeated whispering (and shouting) campaign that Obama is a “usurper” and the like is going to inspire an assassination attempt.

    Capgras Syndrome

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capgras_delusion

  65. avatar
    misha July 24, 2012 at 10:11 am #

    Bernard: My real concern, rather than laugh at this insanity, is that the repeated whispering (and shouting) campaign that Obama is a “usurper” and the like is going to inspire an assassination attempt.

    misha: If anything happens, I say in advance to her and her crowd: J’accuse.

    OT, but related: Congratulations, Michele Bachmann! Huma Abedin Now Getting Death Threats –
    http://jezebel.com/5928250/congratulations-michele-bachmann-huma-abedin-now-getting-death-threats?tag=conspiracy-theories

    My favorite comment: “MB–Muslim Brotherhood. MB–Michele Bachmann. Coincidence? I think not.”

  66. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 4:19 pm #

    Thanks for sharing those insights. I think Bernard might be onto something. Not actual Capgras, but in some ways, almost inducing a similar response.

    When reading that link on Capgras, what stood out is that the sufferer’s delusions seemed to stem from a sense of “loss of familiarity”.

    With Birtherism and other RW forms of exculsionary “tribalism”, we see a pattern and emotional need to redefine their opponents as not just having different views, but truly being “other”. That type of dehumanizing allows them to slander and attack those they disagree with, nearly “guilt free”, because they train themselves to no longer see their opponents as fellow people, but “enemies”.

    That sure comes across to me as a self-induced and wilfull attempt to create and brainwash a sense of “loss of familiarity”.

    I agree too that dangerous consequences can arise from that….definitely a concern.

    Majority Will: Capgras Syndrome
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capgras_delusion

    Bernard: Speaking of mental illness, there is a particular delusion — there is a name for it but I cannot remember it now — in which the patient is convinced that the people in his household and/or workplace have somehow all been replaced by imposters or lookalikes or pod people. This with “the American President isn’t really American” seems to fit that category.

  67. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 4:26 pm #

    I strongly share those concerns. That is a dark aspect of concern that I’ve had since the beginning of monitoring the PUMA and then Birther phenomenon.

    It definitely is a potential consequence of the type of dehumanizing that these hate-based folks are likely to invoke. You can see the warning signs from the number of violent and threat based posts at many of these RWNJ sites.

    That is why it remains important to monitor these idiots beyond just the baffling entertainment of watching absurdity play out. There is a real danger that some of them could snap and cause real harm to themselves or others. The best way to try to prevent that is to keep a close eye on them and their levels of unstableness…

    Bernard: My real concern, rather than laugh at this insanity, is that the repeated whispering (and shouting) campaign that Obama is a “usurper” and the like is going to inspire an assassination attempt.

    misha: Without any qualifications, that is precisely what Orly Taitz and her ilk are trying to do. Her attempts to inspire a lone wolf are transparent to anyone who is rational.
    If anything happens, I say in advance to her and her crowd: J’accuse.

    misha:
    OT, but related: Congratulations, Michele Bachmann! Huma Abedin Now Getting Death Threats –
    http://jezebel.com/5928250/congratulations-michele-bachmann-huma-abedin-now-getting-death-threats?tag=conspiracy-theories

    My favorite comment: “MB–Muslim Brotherhood. MB–Michele Bachmann. Coincidence? I think not.”

  68. avatar
    bgansel9 July 24, 2012 at 4:56 pm #

    Majority Will: Capgras Syndrome

    “The delusion is common in patients diagnosed with neurological disorders such as schizophrenia, brain injury and dementia”

    I’ve been considering them paranoid schizophrenics myself. This seems to fit in nicely. Thanks.

  69. avatar
    Majority Will July 24, 2012 at 5:39 pm #

    bgansel9: “The delusion is common in patients diagnosed with neurological disorders such as schizophrenia, brain injury and dementia”

    I’ve been considering them paranoid schizophrenics myself. This seems to fit in nicely. Thanks.

    But we can’t yet definitively rule out alien pods either. Do birthers avoid airport scanners and x-rays?

  70. avatar
    misha July 24, 2012 at 5:58 pm #

    Majority Will: Do birthers avoid airport scanners and x-rays?

    They just cover themselves with tinfoil beforehand.

  71. avatar
    donna July 24, 2012 at 6:09 pm #

    john woodman

    Exposed: Sheriff Joe Arpaio Birther Scam — Here’s the Proof that Arpaio’s Posse Fabricated Evidence and Lied to the Nation

    http://www.obamabirthbook.com/http:/www.obamabirthbook.com/2012/07/exposed-sheriff-joe-arpaio-corsi-birther-scam-heres-the-proof-that-arpaios-posse-fabricated-evidence-and-lied-to-the-nation/

  72. avatar
    JOHN WAYNE July 24, 2012 at 6:43 pm #

    Obama’s Ratings Dive

    Tuesday, July 24, 2012 6:02:29 PM by Hojczyk

    His personal favorability, once a strong point for Obama, has vanished and is now being replaced by a personal dislike that is dragging him down. These data, buried deep in the latest NY Times/CBS poll (of registered voters, not likely voters) are both stark and important. In April, Obama had a 42-45 favorable/unfavorable rating, itself a shock given his vastly higher favorable ratings only a few months before. Now, he has a favorable rating of only 36% and an unfavorable rating of 48%. The NY Times poll showed Romney getting 47% of the vote compared to 46% for Obama (again,…

  73. avatar
    Majority Will July 24, 2012 at 6:51 pm #

    JOHN WAYNE: Obama

    Off topic spam.

  74. avatar
    Thomas Brown July 24, 2012 at 7:35 pm #

    JOHN WAYNE:
    Obama’s Ratings Dive

    Doesn’t matter. Rmoney isn’t eligible anyway; he’s not a Natural Born Citizen. The Birth Certificate he showed is garbage, marked “VOID,” and probably forged at that.

    Soon we’ll be filing Ballot Challenges in all 50 states blocking Rmoney from being on the Ballot. No birth certificate (and Selective Service record, and proof he has a valid SS#), no candidate!

  75. avatar
    nbc July 24, 2012 at 7:52 pm #

    JW has been spamming my site as well. I tried to engage in an intellectual discussion with him but it appears to have gone way over his head.

    Poor soul. So afraid that he allows others to manipulate him with lies and falsehoods. And yet he accuses others of being ‘traitors’…

    Fascinating