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Who benefits from the birther movement?

I asked myself that question last night. Supposedly the birther movement started as a comment at the Free Republic web site, a rumor with no hint of why one should believe it. Some people believed it because they wanted to. Early birthers were some Hillary Clinton supporters, the so-called PUMAs. They got a big boost when Phil Berg filed his lawsuit and made it somehow “official.” Birtherism also got a boost from pro-Israel individuals and web sites, like Ron Polland and the Israel Insider, joined with some participation form white supremacists.

Initially birtherism seemed to be a genuine grassroots movement, primarily a creature of the blogosphere. Who benefited? I’d say that in 2008 no one did. Barack Obama won the election handily and became President, and Phil Berg got entangled in a messy lawsuit.

After the election birther bloggers continued to promote various rumors, but I think that it was the full-scale entry of WorldNetDaily in 2009 that was the tipping point that that turned birtherism mainstream, from a basement operation to an industrial polluter. The other major boost to birtherism was the entry of celebrity Donald Trump into the fray. However, President Obama effectively dealt with Trump, and made him a  national laughingstock when Obama released his the long-form birth certificate, and birther numbers were decimated. Clearly Donald Trump didn’t benefit from the birther movement.

The story didn’t end with Trump’s national disgrace. Birtherism came back. It was, again, bloggers, or more precisely YouTubers who who went ape-dip over proving the long form was a fraud, but YouTube is not really a broadcast medium. It was WorldNetDaily again who made birthers front page news with birther coverage 24-7. They developed their on stable of crackpot experts to analyze the layers of the PDF (in the 60’s there was a TV commercial that posed the question: “Is three enough? Is six too many? You never know with prunes.”). Today if you ask a birther for justification, they will point to Sheriff Arpaio’s Cold Case Posse which is largely a WorldNetDaily/Jerome Corsi production, with WND as writer, director and producer. Also WorldNetDaily’s own attorney Larry Klayman is big news at WND in the Florida Obama ballot challenge case. (I would not be a bit surprised to learn that WND is paying Klayman to represent Voeltz.)

Joseph Farah once said that he created the birther movement. Why do that? The obvious reason is that WND is creating demand for its products. It’s just like commercials that stigmatize dandruff or greasy hair in order to sell products to combat it. I believe the books, the billboards, the streaming videos and the daily run of articles are all not for the purposes of removing President Obama from office, or forestalling his reelection, but rather for the purpose of getting the hoard of conspiracy theorists and Obama-haters to visit WorldNetDaily’s web site and look at their ads.

You can see the WND emphasis in their coverage. Joe Arpaio, with close ties to WND, is featured frequently. Klayman gets prominent mention. Orly Taitz, on the other hand, is mentioned sparsely (and mostly in 2009) and when she is, she’s not the subject of the article, but merely the attorney listed for the case who isn’t quoted. Taitz is competition for those mouse clicks.

Birtherism only exists among people who wouldn’t vote for Obama anyway. The grassroots birther gets no benefit in terms of electoral outcome. It’s toxic to mainstream politicians. Joseph Farah and WorldNetDaily are the ones who really benefit from the birther movement.

96 Responses to Who benefits from the birther movement?

  1. avatar
    Majority Will July 6, 2012 at 9:01 am #

    There was a Tim Adams / WND tie-in as well.

  2. avatar
    Thrifty July 6, 2012 at 9:02 am #

    Birthers do. It’s a psychological coping mechanism. These people didn’t just see the presidential candidate they dislike win the presidency. In their mind, Satan himself won the presidency (figuratively speaking). To their mind, sitting in The White House is a dangerous, far-left extremist signing bills into law and enacting policies that will literally destroy their country. They could never wait for an electoral defeat in the 2012 election, and will probably go even more nuts (if such a thing is possible) should Barack Obama win a second term.

    So in dealing with, what they view as a monumental country destroying tragedy, Birtherism makes an attractive mentally soothing balm. They tell themselves that because Barack Obama is an ineligible usurper, they can get him thrown out of office BEFORE the election. Even better, many seem to believe that they can then push the magic reset button to have all the policies they hate so much undone as well.

    It’s sorta like the “Bargaining” stage of the 5 stages of grief.

  3. avatar
    James M July 6, 2012 at 9:09 am #

    So far, nobody has benefitted more from birtherism than President Obama himself.

  4. avatar
    Majority Will July 6, 2012 at 9:14 am #

    Thrifty: It’s sorta like the “Bargaining” stage of the 5 stages of grief.

    Interesting theory.

  5. avatar
    Lupin July 6, 2012 at 9:18 am #

    I think that with the growing % of hispanics and asians in the US population, some wish to undo the “jus soli” concept or at least create a “supercitizen” class of white people, and the birther agenda is a convenient tool to rope in the gullible bigots.

  6. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 6, 2012 at 9:38 am #

    One of the recurrent themes I heard in my recent trip to eastern Germany was that of underpopulation. Low birthrates were creating a labor shortage and stifling growth. What the nativists do not understand is that a post-industrial society like the United States needs immigrants to supply our labor needs (the recent rise in unemployment is a temporary phenomenon) and to sustain long-term growth. It’s the same today as it was in the 1700’s when we needed immigrants to replace the deaths from disease and deprivation. The US didn’t even have an immigration law before 1875.

    Even China is facing a “baby bust” because of the success of its one-child family policy.

    Lupin: I think that with the growing % of hispanics and asians in the US population, some wish to undo the “jus soli” concept or at least create a “supercitizen” class of white people, and the birther agenda is a convenient tool to rope in the gullible bigots.

  7. avatar
    donna July 6, 2012 at 9:52 am #

    Lupin: i saw your comments on John Woodman’s blog

    i appreciated your clarification of “les parents” – it had always been my understanding that “parents” was mistranslated as “parents” when it usually means “family members” or “relatives”

  8. avatar
    Mitch July 6, 2012 at 9:52 am #

    “Birtherism only exists among people who wouldn’t vote for Obama anyway. ”

    I’m not sure that’s true. I have met people who have expressed doubt. Once I talk to them a while, they seem to understand that the birther’s are spreading lies, but I worry about the other people think that “where there’s smoke, there’s fire.” It spreads doubt among the electorate; doubt which may push some independents to Romney.

    We MUST force Romney and other mainstream Republicans to confront the birthers. This “I can’t tell people what to think” and “I don’t know” crap has got to STOP.

  9. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 6, 2012 at 9:53 am #

    This is why I think birtherism will drop off sharply after the presidential election. WND will not see the money there any more and without their constant promotion, there’s just not enough left to keep the fire going. No WND, no Arpaio, no Klayman. With no ballot challenges left, the lawsuit angle is pretty much exhausted as it was in 2011. The true conspiracy theorists will keep stringing beads together, but there won’t be any more news. Orly Taitz might even move on to some other mania.

  10. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 6, 2012 at 9:55 am #

    But birthers also discredit Republicans in the eyes of other independents. I think the birther effect largely cancels itself out. The extent to which birthers don’t matter in the election is borne out by the serious consideration given to Marco Rubio as the Republican VP candidate.

    Mitch: It spreads doubt among the electorate; doubt which may push some independents to Romney.

  11. avatar
    john July 6, 2012 at 10:08 am #

    At this point Sheriff Arpaio is our last real hope. Birthers should spend their time and money to fund Arpaio’s investigation. I imagine there must me much work to be done in continuing the criminal investigation and to gather enough evidence to prosecute those responsible for the forgery of Obama’s birth Certificate.

  12. avatar
    Lupin July 6, 2012 at 10:12 am #

    donna: Lupin: i saw your comments on John Woodman’s blog

    i appreciated your clarification of “les parents” – it had always been my understanding that “parents” was mistranslated as “parents” when it usually means “family members” or “relatives”

    Thank you. In effect, it means both “parents” AND “relatives”. It has a greater semantic field than in English. (Which is unusual as English words generally have greater semantic fields than French ones.)

  13. avatar
    Lupin July 6, 2012 at 10:17 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: One of the recurrent themes I heard in my recent trip to eastern Germany was that of underpopulation. Low birthrates were creating a labor shortage and stifling growth. What the nativists do not understand is that a post-industrial society like the United States needs immigrants to supply our labor needs (the recent rise in unemployment is a temporary phenomenon) and to sustain long-term growth. It’s the same today as it was in the 1700′s when we needed immigrants to replace the deaths from disease and deprivation. The US didn’t even have an immigration law before 1875.

    The immigration subject is complex because we (in Europe) have very old cultures now forced to deal with 3rd and 4th generation descendents of immigrants. In my region some of the older folks (and I’m no spring chicken) still resent the Spaniards who came here fleeing Franco in the 30s.

    This gets further complicated by world issues — yesterday, a young Jewish man was assaulted by two young Arabic men (all of them French citizens, of course) in a train traveling from Toulouse to Lyon. There are no local issues at stake; it’s mostly an offshoot of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, with a sprinkle on anti-US foreign policy on top.

    But I digress.

  14. avatar
    donna July 6, 2012 at 10:20 am #

    LUPIN: In effect, it means both “parents” AND “relatives”

    je le sais, merci

  15. avatar
    bovril July 6, 2012 at 10:31 am #

    A most timely article as it meshes with a presentation I gave yesterday, mine was around information security and hacking however the similarities are quite striking

    I have snipped most which is technology specific but I started with the WHY section

    Who (Is the target)
    Why (Why are they a potential target)
    What (are the threats)
    When (Occurrence and frequency
    Where (The areas of infiltration)
    How (do we defend)

    Then some of the rationales

    As an Investment Bank and Asset Manager XXXXXXX is a tempting target

    Reasons
    Profit
    Political
    Personal

    Rewards
    Tangible
    Intangible
    Fungible (take an item with no necessary intrinsic worth on its own, combine it with
    some other item and create an asset with worth, real or imaginary)

    Reach
    Piggyback and insertion (Use the compromised target as a path to another target you
    want to attack using the trusted “credentials” of the first)

    Then the evolution over time

    Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow

    For fun -> For status -> For profit

    Movement from large and indiscriminate to small and tightly focused

    Zero-Day to a commodity product (Stuxnet)

    Research, Development, Sales, Advertising

    Structured business models, professional

    The Birther (bowel) movement has the same characteristics where we have seen a small and singular cottage industry of malcontents with a bizarre hobby of hate move over time to a managed, controlled, profitable small scale industry.

    The target started with PUMA’s feeling their Dear Leader had been slighted to outright bigotted hate to overt racism to the managed RNC aim of not only de-legitimizing a legally and Contitutionally elected President to the aim of destroying the acts and party of the target.

    We have seen non funded models move to self funded to a, by now well oiled, mechanism of seperating idiots from their money.

    We also see that the idiocy of the Birfoons and inability to learn ensures that even the re-cycled and plainly cretinous models (the Nigerian 419 scam asking to assist moving free money from country to country) leads to the continuing re-iteration of old debunked garbage. All old is new again……

    Even the piece on current hot spot items of concern can map to Birtherism

    Insider versus Outsider attacks ( Ulsterman and “unnamed sources)

    Advanced Persistent Threats (Continuing, embeddedm multi-layered attacks)

    BYOD (Bring your own device) (web sites, blogging, Tweets etc )

    Cloud/Outsource/Commoditisation (the use of the web and the commercialization of Birferism)

    Expansion and Time to Market (the memes are added to and expanded and are linked to external acts and expanded more quickly. The Shurrifs latest “presser” coincidenty will occur at the same piece of the news cycle as the DoJ actions against him)

    The Web of Trust (the incestuous, referentially linked set of Birther sites that link and feed each other and re-inforce the APPEARANCE of a mass movement with apparent “legitimacy”

    And it links against my article on Birferism as a virus …. 😎

  16. avatar
    bovril July 6, 2012 at 10:34 am #

    Sorry Doc, I keep reviewing the bolding but can’t seem to bold/unbold properly to seperate out the specific sections…..

  17. avatar
    RuhRoh July 6, 2012 at 11:02 am #

    I think it’s possible that Trump did benefit somewhat from his Birther adventures. I’ve noticed that Trump tends to publicly espouse Birtherism when his television shows are heading into sweeps week. Whether or not he got higher ratings as a result, or was able to negotiate a more lucrative contract with NBC for his shows, I couldn’t say as I haven’t checked. I suspect he did get better ratings though and probably also more money in his NBC contract. He raised his profile (infamously as it may have been) and that can translate into $$.

    He also managed to recast his image from that of a Democrat to that of a rabid far right-winger.

    Trump seems to feel he benefited, or he wouldn’t have repeated the Birther nonsense this spring.

  18. avatar
    Keith July 6, 2012 at 11:11 am #

    Lupin:
    I think that with the growing % of hispanics and asians in the US population, some wish to undo the “jus soli” concept or at least create a “supercitizen” class of white people, and the birther agenda is a convenient tool to rope in the gullible bigots.

    I agree.

  19. avatar
    Xyxox July 6, 2012 at 11:12 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    This is why I think birtherism will drop off sharply after the presidential election. WND will not see the money there any more and without their constant promotion, there’s just not enough left to keep the fire going. No WND, no Arpaio, no Klayman. With no ballot challenges left, the lawsuit angle is pretty much exhausted as it was in 2011. The true conspiracy theorists will keep stringing beads together, but there won’t be any more news. Orly Taitz might even move on to some other mania.

    Birtherism will always be an existing undercurrent amongst American conspiracy theorists. There are people to this day who deny the moon landings and with multiple generations since those events being born, it becomes easier to recruit people into the denial conspiracy theories.

    That said, the immediate future after an Obama re-election will be to go down the road of multiple other conspiracy theories about Obama.

  20. avatar
    RuhRoh July 6, 2012 at 11:32 am #

    Lupin:
    I think that with the growing % of hispanics and asians in the US population, some wish to undo the “jus soli” concept or at least create a “supercitizen” class of white people, and the birther agenda is a convenient tool to rope in the gullible bigots.

    I think you’re right, and we’ve really seen growth in that segment since the BC was published. If you follow most of the “two citizen parent” devotees, you’ll usually find that they are absolutely furious with and terrified by immigrants.

  21. avatar
    JPotter July 6, 2012 at 11:45 am #

    RuhRoh: I think it’s possible that Trump did benefit somewhat from his Birther adventures.

    For those willing to revel in notoriety, there’s no such thing as bad publicity. Is birtherism much worse than promoting wrestling? He’s been hip deep with Vince McMahon for 20 years.

    Xyxox: Birtherism will always be an existing undercurrent amongst American conspiracy theorists.

    They’ve laid a well-insulated, triple-reinforced foundation for “next time”. You know there’s gonna be one! What a joke it will be when they crank this foolishness up again. Particularly if there is a racial angle, which will be the most likely for a birther revival. “Soooo…this time it isn’t about race? Promise?” 😛

  22. avatar
    Thinker July 6, 2012 at 12:58 pm #

    Larry Klayman’s ex-wife recently got the $78,000 in back child support that deadbeat dad Larry owed his kids, so they have probably benefited substantially from their formerly broke dad’s birfing.

  23. avatar
    donna July 6, 2012 at 1:27 pm #

    trump benefits

    whenever he rears his hair, it’s before a new season of the apprentice or more recently before the miss usa pageant

  24. avatar
    sactosintolerant July 6, 2012 at 2:26 pm #

    Now Farah is stirring up his cesspool’s followers by saying Obama is guilty of treason. Regardless of who wins from birtherism, WND certainly makes losers of us all.

  25. avatar
    Rickey July 6, 2012 at 2:26 pm #

    I suspect that Susan Daniels has figured out a way to profit from this. She couldn’t have earned much out of her initial database mining for Orly, but she has kept after it. Perhaps the notoriety has helped her business?

    In any event, her birther complaint in Ohio is now available for viewing. It contains nothing new, but if she wrote it herself she at least made it mostly comprehensible.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/99213213/2012-07-02-DANIELS-Complaint-and-Motion-for-Temp-and-Perm-Injunction-and-Mandaus

  26. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 6, 2012 at 4:56 pm #

    Whatever helps you get out of bed in the morning.

    john: At this point Sheriff Arpaio is our last real hope

  27. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 6, 2012 at 4:59 pm #

    For complex comments, you might try an outboard HTML editor like Kompozer.

    There are WSYWIG plug-in editors for WordPress but last time I tried there were problems.

    bovril: Sorry Doc, I keep reviewing the bolding but can’t seem to bold/unbold properly to seperate out the specific sections…..

  28. avatar
    Arthur July 6, 2012 at 6:24 pm #

    “Help us, Sheriff Joe Arpaio; you’re our only hope!” Birther Wars Episode IV: A New Hope

    john: At this point Sheriff Arpaio is our last real hope.

    You know John, instead of pinning your hopes on a shifting gallery of men and women who have done nothing but relieve you of money and leave you disappointed, you might try a constitutional remedy and work to remove “the usurper” through the ballot box. I get the feeling, however, that birthers– so strongly energized by imagination and myth– are infatuated with the idea of a saviour.

  29. avatar
    richCares July 6, 2012 at 6:45 pm #

    “john: At this point Sheriff Arpaio is our last real hope.”
    .
    you have had at least 15 last real hopes, I am sure you could find another one.

  30. avatar
    y_p_w July 6, 2012 at 7:19 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    For complex comments, you might try an outboard HTML editor like Kompozer.

    There are WSYWIG plug-in editors for WordPress but last time I tried there were problems.

    I remember when you had something up that did that, it wasn’t anywhere near perfect. A lot of formatting didn’t work, block quotes didn’t show up, and blank lines didn’t appear.

    I like the idea of putting it through an editor once. I’ve worked on long-winded comments before, only to have something happen such as an accidental reload or sometimes even the browser locks up. I pin that on a particular unnamed browser from a company I’ll call MS. I don’t particularly like using it, but in some cases that was the only browser available to me.

    I would note that there is an issue in that quite a few functions aren’t allowed here. I’ve tried underlining. About all I can get to work are italics and bold.

  31. avatar
    Predicto July 6, 2012 at 7:35 pm #

    I am ashamed to admit that I once thought john was a serious (albeit misguided) poster.

    But now, given how his comment isn’t even remotely related to this discussion, it is clear that

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/54644045@N08/5055032357/

  32. avatar
    Northland10 July 6, 2012 at 7:54 pm #

    y_p_w: I would note that there is an issue in that quite a few functions aren’t allowed here. I’ve tried underlining. About all I can get to work are italics and bold.

    I have found the various html code to not always work but the ability to edit does allow me and go back, check my html cheat sheet and fix things.

    I thought underline worked though I tend to not use it online due to its use in hyperlinks.

  33. avatar
    G July 6, 2012 at 8:04 pm #

    Yeah, that is John in a nutshell.

    Predicto:
    I am ashamed to admit that I once thought john was a serious (albeit misguided) poster.

    But now, given how his comment isn’t even remotely related to this discussion, it is clear that

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/54644045@N08/5055032357/

  34. avatar
    G July 6, 2012 at 9:31 pm #

    It really makes you wonder what WND’s “true motives” are in all this…besides just profit. Obviously, they are driven by an ideological agenda as well.

    After all, these were the same folks who made their mark and fame by inventing the “Swiftboat” propoganda strategy against Kerry in the 2004 campaign.

    There is no doubt that these charlatans are merely being opportunistic by pimping the Birther myths…but to what goal(s)?

    I don’t think there is *only* one motive and goal to Birtherism… (besides sore-losering ODS towards Obama) … but just about all of them smack of one form of bigotry or another….and most disturbingly, from the array of articles at WND, it seems that they pimp all of these various broader bigoted agendas… Obama has merely become a convenient scapegoat for them to try to paint with these various flavors of bigotry, in order to further those goals.

    As Lupin and others have mentioned, there are those that see Birtherism as part of making a bigger xenophobic stance against non-white immigrants. Beyond just the obvious “white-nationalist” motives, I think some of these “2 citizen parent” junkies are attracted to the concept, simply because they fear “anchor babies”… WND sure seems to talk up a lot of anti-immigration material, so I do suspect that they have such broader xenophobic goals in their long-term agenda.

    But beyond that, there is also several strains of religious bigotry that we’ve seen amongst the Birtheristani.

    The mere unusual sounding name of Obama, coupled with the religion of both his birth father and his step-father, plays towards those driven by anti-Muslim fears. For some, perhaps that is just an outgrowth of emotional scarring from 9-11 and our subsequent wars. For some, their own zealous fundamentalism (whether Christian or Jewish) is obsessed with ideas of needing “Holy Wars” or fulfilling “end times prophecy” or simply being concerned that Obama is not sufficiently a “pro-Israel war-hawk” to jump start their long desired direct war against Iran. WND pushes a lot of articles that seem to fit the wheelhouse of each of these various strains of religious-driven agendas as well…

    Then there is the pure political bigotry levels. Sadly, a lot of these far-right types have been raised and brainwashed to autommatically fear and hate Democrats / liberals / progressives as “evil” or “the enemy” or “dangerous”. There seems to be a very strong correlation between this attitude and far right conservative religious fundamentalism. Somehow, this level of dogmatic tribalism has led these folks to unquestioningly and blindly support the GOP (at least at the ballot box) and more importantly, outright unfettered capitalism. These folks are just tools of those powerful greedy folks who really seek to supplant democracies with corporatocricies. For those with that mindset, they’ve bought into Karl Rove’s idea of a “permanent majority”…and therefore any Democratic president is viewed as an “usurper” to their “entitled” reign…and they only accept elections and political appointments in which “their side” wins.

    For this later group, Birtherism is mere political theater towards that purpose. After all, that is what WND’s “Swiftboating” was really designed to do. The problem is that the propagandist manipulators pushing this particular agenda have become too insular and arrogant in their past short-term successes (2004, 2010) and have now limited their ability to keep plying this same tactic. In the longer term picture, it has only served to “cast out” those that they deem insufficiently uncompromising (RINOs) and to turn-off just about everyone else. Our politics have become so polarized BECAUSE of folks with this attitude. The problem with such zealous and unbending tribalistic attitudes is that it quickly becomes cult-like in its behavior. They overestimate their numbers and their appeal, because they only chatter amongst themselves….and tend to turn-off or drive away most everyone else.

    Those still attempting to use Birtherism as part of political propaganda seem to be the biggest fools amongst the shameless charlatans out there. I’ve said many times that I think they are only preaching to their own choir and probably helping Obama fundraise and get out his own base more than anything else.

    For that latter group of political-driven propagandists, I see Birtherism quickly drying up after the election, regardless. Maybe, like the pathetic and bitter PUMAs from last cycle, they will stay noisy and continue court battles for a few months longer, in delusional hopes of either preventing his re-inaugeration or foolishly hoping that there is a “magic reset button” to wipe away his first term. But that will quickly fade and be the end of that. They will simply come up with new political-based conspiracies, in hopes of affecting the next election cycle.

    For now, all of these various types of Birther bigots have a common goal of not wanting to see Obama be re-elected in November. So I see the entire Birther movement, regardless of motivation, pretty much being driven by that singular goal at this point…and therefore, likely to mostly fizzle out once that event has been decided.

    But what about the long-term agendas of those other Birther bigots? I don’t see the Birther angle serving any continued purpose for those with the religious-bigotry driven motives. They too will come up with new conspiracies to replace Birtherism in order to further their agendas.

    The only subset I see that might try to keep playing this Birther game in some form or another are the xenophobes, as they would desperately love to find ways to restrict citizenship rights to those they deem “less entitled” than themselves.

    Beyond that, once the election is settled, BIrtherism will be reduced to a smattering of die-hard ODS-sufferers, forever bitter and obsessed in their personal hatred of Obama, muttering their mythology to themselves and pretty much ignored and shunned by everyone else. They will still exist in the dark and dusty corners of the internet, but will get no more attention than Truthers, Moon Landing Deniers and Flat Earthers get these days…

    sactosintolerant:
    Now Farah is stirring up his cesspool’s followers by saying Obama is guilty of treason. Regardless of who wins from birtherism, WND certainly makes losers of us all.

  35. avatar
    justlw July 6, 2012 at 9:43 pm #

    john: At this point Sheriff Arpaio is our last real hope

    I picture Princess Leia leaning over a droid, although by “Princess Leia” I mean “scary-eyed person of questionable hygiene” and by “droid” I mean “133 MHz Packard Bell on a dinette table.”

  36. avatar
    Majority Will July 6, 2012 at 9:50 pm #

    justlw: I picture Princess Leia leaning over a droid, although by “Princess Leia” I mean “scary-eyed person of questionable hygiene” and by “droid” I mean “133 MHz Packard Bell on a dinette table.”

    LMAO

    Darth Bigot is looking for answers in Alderaan places.

  37. avatar
    Keith July 6, 2012 at 9:56 pm #

    john: At this point Sheriff Arpaio is our last real hope.

    You’re Screwed 😀

  38. avatar
    G July 6, 2012 at 10:15 pm #

    Call me skeptical, but I don’t buy that at all. I’ve run into people making that “claim” as well, but it never holds up under further scrutiny. They always turn out to be people with some other underlying reason for why they are really not voting for Obama…and claims of Birtherism “doubts” is just an excuse of convenience. I’ve yet to find any that even actually voted for Obama the last time around…and often the tale quickly becomes a FOAF (friend-of-a-friend), when pressed… which also never seems to hold up under scrutiny.

    So yeah, that whole line of “where there’s smoke, there’s fire” is merely the short-sighted desired agenda and claims of the political propagandists amongst the Birtheristani. That is what they are really about and hoping for, with making such claims… but I’ve yet to find any substantiated evidence that holds up to back that. It always seems to fall apart, when further pressed.

    Mitch:
    “Birtherism only exists among people who wouldn’t vote for Obama anyway. ”
    I’m not sure that’s true. I have met people who have expressed doubt. Once I talk to them a while, they seem to understand that the birther’s are spreading lies, but I worry about the other people think that “where there’s smoke, there’s fire.”

    *rolls eyes* Don’t buy that either.

    Face it, Romney is about the lamest and weakest candidate to ever make it to this level as a major-party challenger in a Presidential campaign – at least in modern history. He doesn’t have much personal appeal, is about as transparently disingenuous of a politician as we’ve ever seen, and has very little to offer as an agenda, other than to reflexively be opposed to whatever Obama Is doing.

    Romney’s vote is mainly nothing more than an “anti-Obama” vote, not a “pro-Romney vote”. In this day and age of extreme political polarization, that guarantees him a certain locked-in set of people that will cast a vote for him, for no other reason than he has an R by his name and he is “not Obama”. The only other thing he has going for his campaign is lots of money and support of outside groups. But then again, that money is really just the “anti-Obama” donors that would be throwing that money to anyone who was the R candidate.

    If a so-called “independent” goes to Romney, Birtherism will not be the reason. Anyone who would otherwise cast a vote FOR Obama, would not find anything in common in the purported policy positions of Romney to make him a more desirable alternative. If they “claim” to still have such “doubts” about Obama’s NBC status at this stage in the game, then they are really are just looking for a cover excuse for why they have no intention of voting for Obama in the first place.

    The non-partisan, non-“locked-in” pool of the electorate will simply do what they always do – judge an incumbent vs. an alternative based on how they feel the incumbent has done and can do, how they feel about their own life situation in the economy, and whether they think taking a risk on someone else presents a more appealing alternative for the next four years…

    Mitch:
    It spreads doubt among the electorate; doubt which may push some independents to Romney.

    Meh. Really, that is just more political gamesmanship at this point. Birtherism is nothing but an albatross around the GOP’s neck already. We already have learned that the GOP has no shame in its propaganda, so they aren’t going to change their behavior. I agree that their behavior and endless forms of “red-meat” dog-whistles are shameful and need to be openly and routinely condemned when they occur. But they won’t be “forced” to do anything, as they simply have no ethical shame on these matters. Shining a light to their actions is simply helpful for the sake of making the truly unaffiliated aware of their reprehensible behaviors and tactics.

    But I don’t for an instant expect Romney and the rest of the GOP to actually improve their behavior at all. The only thing that will cause them to stop is if they lose the election. But then they will just come up with new dog-whistles for the next cycle… they won’t change their stripes on this sort of overall behavior until some point in which they’ve suffered several unbroken strings of failures in a row.

    Mitch:
    We MUST force Romney and other mainstream Republicans to confront the birthers. This “I can’t tell people what to think” and “I don’t know” crap has got to STOP.

  39. avatar
    G July 6, 2012 at 10:16 pm #

    ROTFLMAO!!! Good one! 😉

    Majority Will: LMAO

    Darth Bigot is looking for answers in Alderaan places.

  40. avatar
    donna July 7, 2012 at 7:18 pm #

    news alert from birtherstan

    apparently arpaio has a “sworn & notarized affidavit” from the “forger” who “forged” obama’s birth certificate

  41. avatar
    JPotter July 7, 2012 at 8:29 pm #

    donna:
    news alert from birtherstan

    apparently arpaio has a “sworn & notarized affidavit” from the “forger” who “forged” obama’s birth certificate

    Is there a source for that …. other than echoes of the super-reliable Globe story? If Arpaio really is going this rout (hey, why not right? 😀 ) and The Globe isn’t just making it up (oh, now, they wouldn’t do that, riiiight?), then it could be a fun, clever ploy. A way to get around the can’t file charges crap. Find a patsy willing to play the part, and start milking it. Depositions, demonstrations, a show trial …. the faithful would eat it up, while Arpaio digs a new sub-basement for his own grave.

  42. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 7, 2012 at 8:35 pm #

    Probably Dr. Ron Polland, who did indeed forge Obama’s long-form birth certificate — not the White House version of course.

    donna: apparently arpaio has a “sworn & notarized affidavit” from the “forger” who “forged” obama’s birth certificate

  43. avatar
    Majority Will July 7, 2012 at 9:13 pm #

    JPotter: If Arpaio really is going this rout . . .

    Nice pun.

  44. avatar
    Scientist July 7, 2012 at 9:23 pm #

    JPotter: Find a patsy willing to play the part, and start milking it.

    Joe put me under bright lights and started whacking me with the Phoenix telephone directory. After about 10 hours I “confessed”.

  45. avatar
    JPotter July 7, 2012 at 11:08 pm #

    I assume the tabloid story is just that … a tabloid punking the birthers, knowing they’d eat it up and once again affirm their gullibility and desperation. I mean, c’mon, if it was part of the script, it would be ‘reported’ by WND, not a random supermarket rag.

    That Arpaio’s handlers would decide to embrace it and roll with it is too much to hope for. How delicious it would be! Unfortunately, I think there’s little chance of it … not because they aren’t craven enough, but because they’re just too slow. It takes WND forever to develop material.

  46. avatar
    Rickey July 8, 2012 at 1:42 pm #

    JPotter:
    I assume the tabloid story is just that … a tabloid punking the birthers, knowing they’d eat it up and once again affirm their gullibility and desperation. I mean, c’mon, if it was part of the script, it would be ‘reported’ by WND, not a random supermarket rag.

    That Arpaio’s handlers would decide to embrace it and roll with it is too much to hope for. How delicious it would be! Unfortunately, I think there’s little chance of it … not because they aren’t craven enough, but because they’re just too slow. It takes WND forever to develop material.

    http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2012/07/joe_arpaio_to_open_al_capones.php#more

  47. avatar
    Lucas Daniel Smith July 9, 2012 at 1:04 am #

    Doc, everyone in the United States of American benefits from the Birther Movement. We are saving the country.

    And to prove it I have three (3) tremendous new blog reports for you and your reader’s review:

    Free on the 4th of July, again! (2012)

    http://www.wasobamaborninkenya.com/blog/barrack-obama-eligibility/free-on-the-4th-of-july-again-2012/

    de facto president Barack Hussein Obama II’s 1961 Coast Province General Hospital (CPGH), Mombasa, British Protectorate of Kenya, Certificate of Birth is always circulating on new youtube channels

    http://www.wasobamaborninkenya.com/blog/barrack-obama-eligibility/de-facto-president-barack-hussein-obama-iis-1961-coast-province-general-hospital-cpgh-mombasa-british-protectorate-of-kenya-certificate-of-birth-is-always-circulating-on-new-youtube-channels/

    Governor Paul LePage: The New Gestapo – IRS Agents

    http://www.wasobamaborninkenya.com/blog/obama-news/governor-paul-lepage-the-new-gestapo-irs-agents/

    Thank you for reading my blog. I implore and encourage aggressive and subjective comments (although I love the objective comments provided by analytical and critical thinkers) under my blog reports. There is no call or stipulation for political correctness in the comments sections of the blog so please speak your mind even if you think it might offend me or hurt my precious feelings. Give me what you’ve got. There will be no banning and there will be no censorship. Posting a comment is much like casting a vote so please exercise your right to do so!

  48. avatar
    Thomas Brown July 9, 2012 at 10:23 am #

    Lucas Daniel Smith: We are saving the country.

    I guess in some bizarro reverse world you would be. Here in the real world you are spreading seditious lies that harm America, and you don’t give a rat’s ass as long as you think you are making political points.

    It is utterly proven without a shred of doubt that BHO was born in Hawaii and eligible to serve. That’s why every court decision that stated a decision has said so.

    You should be put in prison for life as a traitor to this great nation in my opinion.

  49. avatar
    bovril July 9, 2012 at 10:34 am #

    Lucas Smith…..”We’re saving the country”

    Charlie Sheen..”Winning !!!!”

    At least Charlie Sheen is honest about how much of a losing feckwad he was during that stage.

  50. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 9, 2012 at 10:45 am #

    Thomas Brown: I guess in some bizarro reverse world you would be. Here in the real world you are spreading seditious lies that harm America, and you don’t give a rat’s ass as long as you think you are making political points.It is utterly proven without a shred of doubt that BHO was born in Hawaii and eligible to serve. That’s why every court decision that stated a decision has said so.You should be put in prison for life as a traitor to this great nation in my opinion.

    Oh we both know it’s not about political points for Lucas it’s about money and his bottom line. He’s a con artist that’s what he does.

  51. avatar
    Rickey July 9, 2012 at 11:05 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Oh we both know it’s not about political points for Lucas it’s about money and his bottom line.He’s a con artist that’s what he does.

    Yes, let’s not forget that Lucas is a convicted forger and swindler. In fact, his most recent criminal case is scheduled to go to trial next week.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/99549515/05-03-2012-Order-resetting-again-pretrial-conference-and-trail-State-of-Iowa-vs-Lucas-Daniel-Smith-FECR-90875

  52. avatar
    JoZeppy July 9, 2012 at 12:30 pm #

    Lucas Daniel Smith: And to prove it I have three (3) tremendous new blog reports for you and your reader’s review:

    Fighting sooooo hard to still be relevant.

    Sad, really.

  53. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 9, 2012 at 2:21 pm #

    Rickey: Yes, let’s not forget that Lucas is a convicted forger and swindler. In fact, his most recent criminal case is scheduled to go to trial next week.http://www.scribd.com/doc/99549515/05-03-2012-Order-resetting-again-pretrial-conference-and-trail-State-of-Iowa-vs-Lucas-Daniel-Smith-FECR-90875

    Yeah I keep hearing his name come up on Amazon and now they don’t even believe he has a criminal record. I posted the cases against him and times he’s been in jail. The guy is nothing but a swindler.

  54. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 9, 2012 at 2:52 pm #

    Smith could send an affidavit to Sheriff Arpaio, confessing that he is the man who forged Barack Obama’s birth certificate.

    That should re-launch his career.

    JoZeppy: Fighting sooooo hard to still be relevant.

  55. avatar
    JoZeppy July 9, 2012 at 2:56 pm #

    It would probably be one of the first truthful things he ever put to paper

    Dr. Conspiracy: Smith could send an affidavit to Sheriff Arpaio, confessing that he is the man who forged Barack Obama’s birth certificate.That should re-launch his career.

  56. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith July 9, 2012 at 5:48 pm #

    Rickey: Yes, let’s not forget that Lucas is a convicted forger and swindler. In fact, his most recent criminal case is scheduled to go to trial next week.

    In typical Obot fashion you fail to read before offering your erroneous comments. There is no trial, hence the report, “Free on the 4th of July, again! (2012)”. I am a free man.

    07.03.2012. Plea and Sentence. State of Iowa vs Lucas Daniel Smith. FECR 90875.”

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/99549786/07-03-2012-Plea-and-Sentence-State-of-Iowa-vs-Lucas-Daniel-Smith-FECR-90875

  57. avatar
    Rickey July 9, 2012 at 9:38 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: In typical Obot fashion you fail to read before offering your erroneous comments. There is no trial, hence the report, “Free on the 4th of July, again! (2012)”. I am a free man.

    07.03.2012. Plea and Sentence. State of Iowa vs Lucas Daniel Smith. FECR 90875.”

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/99549786/07-03-2012-Plea-and-Sentence-State-of-Iowa-vs-Lucas-Daniel-Smith-FECR-90875

    If you are accusing me of not reading your blog, I plead guilty.

    And speaking of guilty pleas, congratulations for adding another conviction to your record. Theft in the third degree – your family must be proud of you.

  58. avatar
    Reality Check July 9, 2012 at 11:59 pm #

    Congratulations Lucas on being a criminal once again! You are such a role model for Birthers everywhere.

  59. avatar
    JPotter July 10, 2012 at 12:01 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: http://www.scribd.com/doc/99549786/07-03-2012-Plea-and-Sentence-State-of-Iowa-vs-Lucas-Daniel-Smith-FECR-90875

    Theft in the third degree?!? C’mon, LDS! Petty thievery?!? Where’s the ambition?

    Good luck with the probation and suspended sentence, and various associated financial obligations. The court finds you to be a deadbeat …. crime not paying well?

    I think Doc is on to something. If you play patsy for Arpaio, you could probably get a nickel or two worth of birfer bux for your “legal defense fund”.

  60. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith July 10, 2012 at 7:20 pm #

    JPotter: Theft in the third degree?!? C’mon, LDS! Petty thievery?!? Where’s the ambition?

    Good luck with the probation and suspended sentence, and various associated financial obligations. The court finds you to be a deadbeat …. crime not paying well?

    I think Doc is on to something. If you play patsy for Arpaio, you could probably get a nickel or two worth of birfer bux for your “legal defense fund”.

    Thanks for the hate. Why cant you, and other Obotopians, just be happy when a person is not sent to prison? I would never wish prison upon any of you Obotopians. With the exception of murdering Muammar Gaddafi (pick the spelling of his name that you prefer because that’s what Gaddafi always did at whim) I would not want to see Obama in prison for anything that he has done that I know of.

    I was facing 25 years in prison and I defended myself throughout the entire felony case without an attorney, not even a public defender.

    Stop the hate. Try being happy, positive and love your fellow humans.

  61. avatar
    JPotter July 10, 2012 at 9:30 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Why cant you, and other Obotopians, just be happy when a person is not sent to prison?

    Hard to be happy when you’ve worked so hard to deserve it. I’ll be happy if you when you’re living an upright life, paying your own way, contributing. There’s only one massive attitude adjustment between you and your better self.

    Seeing how that’s unlikely, seriously, give the Arpaio “opportunity” some thought. You’re perfect for it.

  62. avatar
    Daniel July 10, 2012 at 9:32 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Stop the hate. Try being happy, positive and love your fellow humans.

    Coming from a birther and a, once again, convicted felon, that’s pretty rich.

    Why don’t you take your own advice and stop stealing from people, forging their documents, and lying about their birthplace and eligibility?

  63. avatar
    Scientist July 10, 2012 at 9:37 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Thanks for the hate. Why cant you, and other Obotopians, just be happy when a person is not sent to prison?

    I am happy you didn’t get sent to prison. The US incarceration rate is about the highest in the world and adding to that number is hardly a good thing. In general, society is not well-served by having non-violent offenders in prison. That said, I would have given you a substantial amount of community service instead of a fine that you can’t and won’t pay.

    What would make me really happy though, Lucas, is if you stopped stealing. It does seem to be a pattern with you.

  64. avatar
    Arthur July 10, 2012 at 10:32 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I was facing 25 years in prison and I defended myself throughout the entire felony case without an attorney, not even a public defender.

    You should be an lawyer.

  65. avatar
    Rickey July 11, 2012 at 2:50 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: .Why cant you, and other Obotopians, just be happy when a person is not sent to prison?

    I’d be happy if you admitted that your “Kenyan Birth Certificate” is a forgery. That would be an important first step in reforming yourself.

    You are 32 years old and you already have an extensive criminal record. Continuing to flog birtherism is no way to get your life straightened out.

  66. avatar
    Thomas Brown July 11, 2012 at 3:29 pm #

    Scientist: I am happy you didn’t get sent to prison.

    Oh, he’ll be there eventually. Criminals will be criminals.

    Personally, I’m hoping he does time in a prison where the smuggled-in drug of choice is Bath Salts.

  67. avatar
    Wile July 11, 2012 at 3:53 pm #

    Rickey:
    You are 32 years old and you already have an extensive criminal record. Continuing to flog birtherism is no way to get your life straightened out.

    “I, Lucas Smith, tried to stand up and fly straight, but it wasn’t easy with that sumbitch Obama in the White House.”

    “We got a word for people like you, I. That name is called recidivism.”

    http://www.hulu.com/watch/12740

    (with apologies to Mr.’s Coen)

  68. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater July 11, 2012 at 5:10 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Thanks for the hate. Why cant you, and other Obotopians, just be happy when a person is not sent to prison? I would never wish prison upon any of you Obotopians. With the exception of murdering Muammar Gaddafi (pick the spelling of his name that you prefer because that’s what Gaddafi always did at whim) I would not want to see Obama in prison for anything that he has done that I know of.I was facing 25 years in prison and I defended myself throughout the entire felony case without an attorney, not even a public defender.Stop the hate. Try being happy, positive and love your fellow humans.

    With the exception? So you’re a Gaddafi supporter

  69. avatar
    JoZeppy July 11, 2012 at 5:59 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Thanks for the hate. Why cant you, and other Obotopians, just be happy when a person is not sent to prison? I would never wish prison upon any of you Obotopians. With the exception of murdering Muammar Gaddafi (pick the spelling of his name that you prefer because that’s what Gaddafi always did at whim) I would not want to see Obama in prison for anything that he has done that I know of.
    I was facing 25 years in prison and I defended myself throughout the entire felony case without an attorney, not even a public defender.
    Stop the hate. Try being happy, positive and love your fellow humans.

    I’m sorry, but what exactly entitles you to “love” of any sort? You’re a petty con man with an ever growing rap sheet. You’re still trying to shill your bad forgery, and stay relevant in the birther community (and if you can’t stay relevant in that bag of mixed nuts, you’re pretty sad indeed). You proudly proclaimed your crime on this board (child molestation, selling illegal nutritional supplements are two that come to mind), and show no signs of reformation.

    You reap what you sow. You have shown us no redeeming qualities what so ever, and don’t get any sympathy points because you lack the common sense to take real legal representation. So a petty criminal who has shown no interest in reforming walks free. Yee hah! The one positive thing is at least you’re not talking up space a violent criminal would.

  70. avatar
    sfjeff July 11, 2012 at 6:27 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I was facing 25 years in prison and I defended myself throughout the entire felony case without an attorney, not even a public defender.
    Stop the hate. Try being happy, positive and love your fellow humans.

    So are your remorseful about your crime?
    Are you trying to make amends for your crime?

    I am more than willing to give a convicted criminal a second chance, but not if he can’t admit his wrong doing- and if he continues with what appears to be an attempt to defraud the American people with a phony BC.

    Why not start here and come clean.

  71. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith July 11, 2012 at 6:34 pm #

    Thomas Brown: Oh, he’ll be there eventually. Criminals will be criminals.Personally, I’m hoping he does time in a prison where the smuggled-in drug of choice is Bath Salts.

    Ive already been to prison. Discharged a 5 year sentence after 3 years behind the fences/walls. And one year (one entire yeae straight) of the three was in the hole (solitarty). Started that bid not long after I turned 20.

    Most obots aleady know this. Where have you been? Your moms basement? I own my own house so dont hate on me please.

  72. avatar
    G July 11, 2012 at 7:01 pm #

    To Lucas,

    If you are still reading here, you know I’ve tried to be as fair and understanding as possible to you. As I have repeatedly said, I think you have it within you to make a better and honest life for yourself.

    So, I’m happy for you that you’ve arrived at a resolution that keeps you out of jail at the moment. I sincerely hope that you take seriously the conditions set forth by the court and try to adhere to satisfying them completely.

    I fully understand why others here have no faith in you…and it is a lesson you really need to take to heart and reflect upon:

    So far, you’ve spent much of your young life simply getting yourself into one mess of trouble or another…and apparently very little towards making amends for your mistakes.

    As others have mentioned, you haven’t really shown any personal responsibility, remorse, or sincere steps towards changing your bad habits. You have only yourself and your past to blame for your credibility being in tatters and I haven’t really seen you do much of anything to try to honestly rebuild that…or to truly break out towards a fresh start in life.

    There is always time for you to make the hard changes that you need to do for yourself. You just need to be willing and care about bettering yourself. Please relfect upon that.

    sfjeff: So are your remorseful about your crime?
    Are you trying to make amends for your crime?

  73. avatar
    Northland10 July 11, 2012 at 8:12 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: With the exception of murdering Muammar Gaddafi (pick the spelling of his name that you prefer because that’s what Gaddafi always did at whim) I would not want to see Obama in prison for anything that he has done that I know of.

    I do believe it was Libyan fighters that captured and killed Gaddafi. You could argue that the NATO support was the cause, but this is not the first time a President would have gone after Gaddafi. Reagan was less successful in his attempt. Apparently, you want Obama to pay for the Libyans removing the person who harbored the Lockerbie bombers for 8 years.

  74. avatar
    misha July 11, 2012 at 10:21 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: With the exception of murdering Muammar Gaddafi (pick the spelling of his name that you prefer because that’s what Gaddafi always did at whim) I would not want to see Obama in prison

    So now you are defending an international criminal?! This is getting crazier by the hour.

  75. avatar
    misha July 11, 2012 at 10:30 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: With the exception of murdering Muammar Gaddafi (pick the spelling of his name that you prefer because that’s what Gaddafi always did at whim) I would not want to see Obama in prison

    How about this: 1986 Berlin discotheque bombing –
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_Berlin_discotheque_bombing

  76. avatar
    donna July 11, 2012 at 11:03 pm #

    AZ – LLF v NDP – Dismissed

    2012-07-11 – LLF AZ – ORDER of Dismissal The Court concludes that Plaintiffs have not met their burden of establishing this

    Court has personal jurisdiction over Defendants the DNC and Congresswoman Wasserman Schultz and therefore dismisses this case. The Court also finds that Defendants have not demonstrated that sanctions against Plaintiff’s attorney are warranted in this case and therefore denies Defendants’ Motion for Sanctions. The Court therefore denies as moot Plaintiffs’ Motion to File Supplemental Response (Doc. 35).

    As to Rule 11 Sanctions, the court issued a warning…

    Given that Rule 11 allows claims that are “warranted by existing law or by a nonfrivolous argument for extending, modifying, or reversing existing law,” and that many of the cases rejecting Plaintiffs’ specific theory had not been decided at the time of Plaintiffs’ Complaint, the Court declines to impose Rule 11 sanctions in this case, but hereby warns Mr. Irion that knowingly continuing to bring claims that have previously been dismissed may warrant sanctions in the future. See Fed. R. Civ. P. 11(b)(2).

    http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/az-llf-v-ndp-dismissed/

    order

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/99852053/2012-07-11-LLF-USDC-AZ-ORDER-of-Dismissal

  77. avatar
    G July 12, 2012 at 12:44 am #

    *sigh*

    Again with just slap on the wrist warnings. Propagandist legal abusers like the Birthers are only emboldened to continue their frivolous and wasteful court games, when they are able to get away with it, like this.

    IMHO, sanctions (at least full reimbursement of defense court costs) are appropriate in ALL of these cases…

    donna: As to Rule 11 Sanctions, the court issued a warning…
    Given that Rule 11 allows claims that are “warranted by existing law or by a nonfrivolous argument for extending, modifying, or reversing existing law,” and that many of the cases rejecting Plaintiffs’ specific theory had not been decided at the time of Plaintiffs’ Complaint, the Court declines to impose Rule 11 sanctions in this case, but hereby warns Mr. Irion that knowingly continuing to bring claims that have previously been dismissed may warrant sanctions in the future. See Fed. R. Civ. P. 11(b)(2).

  78. avatar
    Lupin July 12, 2012 at 5:34 am #

    Lucas is a liar and a thief, a narcissist and likely a sociopath; what he needs is psychiatric care, not prison, and certainly not a meaningless fine. This won’t end well.

  79. avatar
    Lupin July 12, 2012 at 5:36 am #

    G: Again with just slap on the wrist warnings. Propagandist legal abusers like the Birthers are only emboldened to continue their frivolous and wasteful court games, when they are able to get away with it, like this.

    This entire thing has been quite a revelation to me. I had never thought, ever, that your courts (and bar associations, might i add) could be so lenient towards what is obviously a bunch of rabblerousers and/or lunatics.

  80. avatar
    donna July 12, 2012 at 9:36 am #

    lupin: “I had never thought, ever, that your courts (and bar associations, might i add) could be so lenient towards what is obviously a bunch of rabblerousers and/or lunatics.”

    i have made similar comments and have thought about this – in the birther cases, i think the courts just get the litigants in and out and give them their “day in court”- it’s not like these are lengthy litigations that go on for years where there ARE more warnings, sanctions, etc – re the bar, perhaps they are more concerned (and buried) with lawyers who commit crimes which harm litigants – in ny, i know of one attorney who was disbarred for stealing iola funds to pay for his own personal expenses – the birther litigants are more than willing to have these attorneys go into courts all over the country hoping for “any day now” – they do not seem to care that they look like fools (to us) – they LIKE keeping this going on

    lupin, i know you’re an attorney so i bet, when a potential client comes in with their tale of woe, you tell them what the law is and how likely they are to achieve success – with the birthers, they don’t bother with the law, rules, precedent, etc – they would not listen to a ted olson, tribe, etc who would tell them they don’t have a case and will not succeed …… go home and move on with your life –

  81. avatar
    JPotter July 12, 2012 at 10:18 am #

    Can any of those with legal experience here comment on how diffcult it is for sanctions to be entered and enforced? Is it a huge PITA for judges and court staff? Are judges encouraged to view sanctions as a last resort? Is use of sanctions up to the judge’s discretion? They are subject to appeal, aren’t they?

    Several commenters here keep hoping for sanctions in response to repetive, ‘vexatious’ litigants … from the judge’s perspective, already burdened by yet another frivolous lawsuit, is levelling sanctions volunteering for yet another burden?

    Thanks to anyone who can respond from experience …. though hopefully not the experience of having been sanctioned!

  82. avatar
    Lupin July 12, 2012 at 10:48 am #

    donna: lupin, i know you’re an attorney so i bet, when a potential client comes in with their tale of woe, you tell them what the law is and how likely they are to achieve success – with the birthers, they don’t bother with the law, rules, precedent, etc – they would not listen to a ted olson, tribe, etc who would tell them they don’t have a case and will not succeed …… go home and move on with your life –

    In the first phase of my career, I worked for the French bank Credit Lyonnais, which was often like working for a Voldemort afflicted with terminal stupidity. I ended up quitting to start my own practice, representing writers and artists, which was less lucrative but much more satisfying for the soul. In that capacity, I’ve had a lot of, er, “eccentric” clients, some idiots, but no real bad apples. Now I’m semi-retired and only deal with a handful of “old” clients who’re more friends than clients really. Parallel to that, I’ve had (and still enjoy) a career as writer, translator, editor and small press publisher.

  83. avatar
    Lupin July 12, 2012 at 10:52 am #

    donna: i have made similar comments and have thought about this – in the birther cases, i think the courts just get the litigants in and out and give them their “day in court”- it’s not like these are lengthy litigations that go on for years where there ARE more warnings, sanctions, etc – re the bar, perhaps they are more concerned (and buried) with lawyers who commit crimes which harm litigants – in ny, i know of one attorney who was disbarred for stealing iola funds to pay for his own personal expenses – the birther litigants are more than willing to have these attorneys go into courts all over the country hoping for “any day now” – they do not seem to care that they look like fools (to us) – they LIKE keeping this going on

    It’s of course always tricky to generalize, but if pushed, I’d say that, when it comes to sanctioning lunatic/vexatious attorneys, our Bar is probably just as lax as the California Bar refusing to sanction Orly. On the other hand, on the whole, our Courts, judges, etc. seem to me less tolerant & patient than yours (judging purely from the birther cases). The scientologists, who are prone to abuse the system, have been trounced mercilessly by French courts, for example. Obviously counter-examples can be found.

  84. avatar
    donna July 12, 2012 at 10:55 am #

    lupin:

    here, we have prisoners who sue because they don’t like the brand of soap given to them or the food that they eat

  85. avatar
    JPotter July 12, 2012 at 10:56 am #

    Lupin: The scientologists, who are prone to abuse the system, have been trounced mercilessly by French courts, for example.

    Glad to hear it, as “prone to abuse” is putting it lightly. The Scientologists are the classic case study in legal intimidation here. Expect birthers and wingnuts in general to follow their example …. Klayman’s career is doing just that. Not that it’s working so well for them! So far.

  86. avatar
    Keith July 12, 2012 at 11:11 am #

    Lupin: our Bar is probably just as lax as the California Bar refusing to sanction Orly.

    As far as I can tell, the California Bar has no way to sanction Orly. I can’t find anything in their rules about competency or conduct unbecoming or anything like that. Pretty much if you can pass the test, you are in. As long as you don’t actually murder your client or the judge there is nothing they can do.

  87. avatar
    JoZeppy July 12, 2012 at 11:19 am #

    JPotter: Can any of those with legal experience here comment on how diffcult it is for sanctions to be entered and enforced? Is it a huge PITA for judges and court staff? Are judges encouraged to view sanctions as a last resort? Is use of sanctions up to the judge’s discretion? They are subject to appeal, aren’t they?Several commenters here keep hoping for sanctions in response to repetive, ‘vexatious’ litigants … from the judge’s perspective, already burdened by yet another frivolous lawsuit, is levelling sanctions volunteering for yet another burden?Thanks to anyone who can respond from experience …. though hopefully not the experience of having been sanctioned!

    Depends (how’s that for a good lawyerly response?). In my experience, judges really try not to hand out sanctions, particularly monitary sanctions, particularly on pro se litigants (note: although Orly frequently files pro se, courts will still look at her as an attorney). In the case of a true vexatious litigant (which I have dealt with), the most likely sanction would be a pre-filing injunction, meaning anything cannot file anything without first asking the court permission. Now the likes of Orly and Mario are different. Although the case law says that pro se litigants have the same obligations to ensure their case and arguments have merit, the courts are more willing to slap an attorney with the opposing party’s fees, or a fine paid to the court. We saw this happen to both Orly and Mario, only Mario had the sense to try to argue his position was based on research, whereas Orly turned around and accused the judge of treason, and filed another motion, after the court specifically told her to cut the cr@p. Mario wiggled out, Orly had her sanctions doubled. Going forward, both are quickly running out of excuses. Will the courts start imposing sanctions sua sponte? Eh? I’d say the odds are 25 to 40% they would. Easier to just dismiss and make it go away. If let’s say Orly keeps filing her garbage in the same court, which would result in getting assigned the same judge, my guess the judge will get annoyed, and the odds jump to 50/50 whether she gets sanctioned. Now the wild card is if the defendants start asking for costs. I’d think both Mario and Orly are wide open targets in this catagory. They’re both attorneys. They both have argued and lost these exact same cases. They both should know that what they’re arguing is utter B.S. If defendants start asking for attorneys’ fees against those two, I’d say you have about a 60% chance the court will grant them. Against other random pro se defendants? Still not likely. Just a dismissal, and send them away.

  88. avatar
    donna July 12, 2012 at 11:51 am #

    JoZeppy: I’d think both Mario and Orly are wide open targets in this catagory. They’re both attorneys. They both have argued and lost these exact same cases. They both should know that what they’re arguing is utter B.S. If defendants start asking for attorneys’ fees against those two, I’d say you have about a 60% chance the court will grant them. Against other random pro se defendants? Still not likely. Just a dismissal, and send them away.

    good points and from your mouth to GOD’S ears

  89. avatar
    G July 12, 2012 at 4:35 pm #

    Folks like Van Irion and Klayman should also fall in that category….

    donna:
    JoZeppy: I’d think both Mario and Orly are wide open targets in this catagory. They’re both attorneys. They both have argued and lost these exact same cases. They both should know that what they’re arguing is utter B.S. If defendants start asking for attorneys’ fees against those two, I’d say you have about a 60% chance the court will grant them. Against other random pro se defendants? Still not likely. Just a dismissal, and send them away.

    good points and from your mouth to GOD’S ears

  90. avatar
    JPotter July 12, 2012 at 7:07 pm #

    JoZeppy: Depends (how’s that for a good lawyerly response?). … [copious amounts of supreme excellence] … Just a dismissal, and send them away.

    Thanks, JoZeppy, for taking the time to add a perspective I felt was missing, but could not provide. My IANAL cert only goes not very far at all. 😉

    I hope others will chime in.

  91. avatar
    Arthur July 12, 2012 at 7:31 pm #

    I read an interesting article at Talking Points Memo today about a Republican official in Idaho suing a commentator on a newspaper blog:

    “Limits of free speech in the online age were upheld this week, when a district court judge in Idaho ruled that a local newspaper, the Spokesman-Review would have to turn over the identity of an anonymous commenter who has been sued for defamation by a local Republican Party official.”

    http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/07/judge-orders-idaho-newspaper-to-identify-anonymous-commenter.php?ref=fpnewsfeed

    Is such a lawsuit really possible? What are the chances of Mario Apuzzo suing someone on this blog for defamation? Could Mario force Dr. C. to reveal the identities of people he might sue?

  92. avatar
    JPotter July 12, 2012 at 7:50 pm #

    Arthur: Is such a lawsuit really possible? What are the chances of Mario Apuzzo suing someone on this blog for defamation? Could Mario force Dr. C. to reveal the identities of people he might sue?

    Several key differences …. the comments in question were on the website of a small city newspaper, and thus were visible to persons the allegedly defamed knew, setting up a situation in which the allegedly defamed could outline specific, real-world damages stemming from a specific, pointed allegation.

    What damages could Mario demonstrate? emotional distress? It could be argued that Mario is something of a public figure (Yes, I’m serious. Stop laughing) and comments here were aimed at his public business.

    The alleged defamer in Idaho should have used a smiley 🙂

  93. avatar
    Northland10 July 12, 2012 at 8:02 pm #

    JoZeppy: We saw this happen to both Orly and Mario, only Mario had the sense to try to argue his position was based on research, whereas Orly turned around and accused the judge of treason, and filed another motion, after the court specifically told her to cut the cr@p.

    Orly filing motions without the permission of, or even consulting her client, likely led her in the directions of sanctions. Her, accuse the judge of treason response, was the extra bonus to give him reason to up the amount (and the lovely little, Holder in the coffee shop, argument).

    I imagine, having his door darkened by Orly once before was not a point in her favor. He did show some very strong teaching moments during those cases. Too bad it was completely lost on Orlena.

  94. avatar
    Arthur July 12, 2012 at 9:23 pm #

    Thanks for the explanation!

    JPotter: Several key differences …. the comments in question were on the website of a small city newspaper, and thus were visible to persons the allegedly defamed knew, setting up a situation in which the allegedly defamed could outline specific, real-world damages stemming from a specific, pointed allegation.

  95. avatar
    Lupin July 13, 2012 at 12:23 am #

    Arthur: Is such a lawsuit really possible? What are the chances of Mario Apuzzo suing someone on this blog for defamation? Could Mario force Dr. C. to reveal the identities of people he might sue?

    Mario threatened to sue me once, here, if I recall correctly; that was before he found out I’m French & live in France.

  96. avatar
    JPotter July 13, 2012 at 12:33 am #

    Lupin: Mario threatened to sue me once, here, if I recall correctly; that was before he found out I’m French & live in France.

    He should hook up with Taitz. She apparently laid out the cash required to join the International League of Legal Superfriends. Not that I want the Taitz judicially noticing you. 🙂