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Extremist birther blogger anticipates martial law in Montana

I looked, and the The JAG Hunter blog isn’t on my Good/Bad/Ugly list, but it probably should be. The military-themed web site is jam packed with birther nonsense and the blogger makes a very prominent show of support for ex-Army doctor Terry Lakin, who was jailed and dismissed after refusing orders until Obama proved his eligibility (JAG Hunter is Walter Fitzpatrick, another veteran who just can’t seem to stay out of jail). JAG Hunter is one of those more paranoid anti-Obama sites that carries stories of the imminent attack on civilians by the evil government.

I’m not much of a military guy, but I did enjoy watching a few episodes of a TV series called Modern Sniper on the Military Channel. That show stressed that modern military activity often took place in urban settings, and that our tactics were changing and our troops were being trained for it. Our JAG Hunter seems to think that this urban warfare emphasis is preparation for an invasion of

Montana scenery showing empty spacesMONTANA1

This is touched on in the article: “UCMJ being reviewed to address urban warfare operation (like maybe in locations like Montana)” and the article: “Newly arrived military reported in Montana: They Are here” – ‘Looks like Martial Law is Next.’

I think JAG Hunter went to the same online school of web design as Orly Taitz — it’s pretty awful. I tell you what, just as soon as Montana is invaded, I’ll go buy a gun.


1OK, Montana is not all like that, but I thought all the gun nuts and militia types were out in the woods.

59 Responses to Extremist birther blogger anticipates martial law in Montana

  1. avatar
    Phil Cave September 4, 2012 at 7:55 pm #

    JAG Hunter is none other than Walter Fitzpatrick.

  2. avatar
    misha September 4, 2012 at 8:18 pm #

    What gives with Montana?
    http://fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/troops-in-kalispell-montana-columbia-fall-under-northcom-command/20551/

    Troops In Kalispell Montana & Columbia Fall Under Northcom Command – The troops are here! Confirmed!! Some of our local residents went to the aluminum plant and saw them, and spoke to them.

    North Com is getting set up with our governor, local sheriffs, local police and fire departments, in ten regions of Montana this week through the weekend: to let the North Com. commander take over the entire state of Montana if any group that Southern Poverty Law Center calls a terrorist group

  3. avatar
    ASK Esq September 4, 2012 at 8:20 pm #

    I’m sorry, but can you really use the words “urban” and “Montana” in the same sentence?

  4. avatar
    misha September 4, 2012 at 8:32 pm #

    ASK Esq: I’m sorry, but can you really use the words “urban” and “Montana” in the same sentence?

    Billings, Montana: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billings,_Montana

    Menorahs in December: How the people of Billings, MT rejected religious hatred in 1993

    Billings Gazette editorial, 1993-DEC-08: http://www.religioustolerance.org/menorah.htm

    “On December 2, 1993, someone twisted by hate threw a brick through the window of the home of one of our neighbors: a Jewish family who chose to celebrate the holiday season by displaying a symbol of faith—a menorah—for all to see. Today, members of religious faiths throughout Billings are joining together to ask residents to display the menorah as a symbol of something else: our determination to live together in harmony, and our dedication to the principle of religious liberty embodied in the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America. We urge all citizens to share in this message by displaying this menorah on a door or a window from now until Christmas. Let all the world know that the national hatred of a few cannot destroy what all of us in Billings, and in America, have worked together so long to build.”

    The Billings Gazette published a full-page image of a menorah in their newspaper. By the end of the week six to ten thousand homes became decorated with menorahs.

  5. avatar
    Paul September 4, 2012 at 8:49 pm #

    JAG Hunter is one of those more paranoid anti-Obama sites that carries stories of the imminent attack on civilians by the evil government.

    I believe, Dr. C, the correct spelling is gummint.

  6. avatar
    G September 4, 2012 at 9:02 pm #

    A very touching story. Good to see these examples of humanity coming together…

    misha: The Billings Gazette published a full-page image of a menorah in their newspaper. By the end of the week six to ten thousand homes became decorated with menorahs.

  7. avatar
    ASK Esq September 4, 2012 at 10:07 pm #

    misha: Menorahs in December: How the people of Billings, MT rejected religious hatred in 1993

    Odd you should mention that. I was at a Bar Mitzvah on Saturday, and the shul has a beautiful print of the picture of the townspeople holding their menorahs, taken through the hole in the window.

  8. avatar
    CarlOrcas September 4, 2012 at 10:09 pm #

    Google “tanks on a train” and you’ll get videos of tanks and armored personnel carriers on trains around the country.

    The comments are hilarious: Some of the folks are absolutely sure they’re on the way to be used by the government against them.

    When someone tries to explain that it is probably nothing more than a routine unit movement – especially in California – the crazies blow them off.

  9. avatar
    misha September 4, 2012 at 11:36 pm #

    CarlOrcas: the crazies blow them off

    Crazy?! I was half asleep, when Max whispered in my ear “four legs good; two legs bad.”

    That’s the thanks I get for cleaning his stupid litter box.

  10. avatar
    foreigner September 5, 2012 at 1:31 am #

    reminds me to the Zullo-interview at deepbunkerradio. Not calling for
    armed revolution since that involves deaths, but maybe resistance
    by not paying taxes or such.
    Is this a new “movement” ? Like hippies in the 70s, rural communes,
    Vietnam protest

  11. avatar
    nbc September 5, 2012 at 2:05 am #

    Phil Cave: JAG Hunter is none other than Walter Fitzpatrick.

    Of course, loud, noisy and poorly informed. Well, he is on his way to prison once again it seems. Such follies

  12. avatar
    G September 5, 2012 at 2:23 am #

    Nope, not new at all. We’ve had these types of paranoid crazies around for at least the past 20 years or more. They really are what we call the “black helicopter” crowd and the “tax-protester nuts”. Some of them gather in enclaves and “bunker down” and sometimes act out in a way that leads to their own demise. The incidents of Ruby Ridge and Waco in the 1990s come to mind…

    foreigner: reminds me to the Zullo-interview at deepbunkerradio. Not calling forarmed revolution since that involves deaths, but maybe resistanceby not paying taxes or such.Is this a new “movement” ? Like hippies in the 70s, rural communes,Vietnam protest

  13. avatar
    Paper September 5, 2012 at 2:47 am #

    This is not even close to being a movement.

    foreigner:

    Is this a new “movement”? Like hippies in the 70s, rural communes,
    Vietnam protest

  14. avatar
    misha September 5, 2012 at 2:55 am #

    Paper: This is not even close to being a movement.

    It’s a movement. I won’t say anything more, because I don’t want to be banned.

  15. avatar
    Lupin September 5, 2012 at 3:19 am #

    Movement or not, if I were you, I’d worry a little (although I’m sure your FBI is on to all this). This is how it started in Sarajevo. The problem with armed dissidence even when from a handful of nuts is that it ends up creating the strong regimes they object to.

  16. avatar
    Paper September 5, 2012 at 3:29 am #

    I know people like this. There are things to worry about, but it is not a movement.

    Lupin:
    Movement or not, if I were you, I’d worry a little (although I’m sure your FBI is on to all this). This is how it started in Sarajevo. The problem with armed dissidence even when from a handful of nuts is that it ends up creating the strong regimes they object to.

  17. avatar
    G September 5, 2012 at 4:42 am #

    Of course we worry a little, as nobody wants to see any harm or damage occur at all. Although, as the SPLC tracks, there has been quite an uptick in fringe groups of “concern”, there is still good reason to be confident that the appropriate branches of law enforcement are monitoring the situation and more importantly – that they can step in to contain and resolve any threat outbeak from these types of groups.

    The chance of the US devolving into another Sarajevo remains fairly minimal still. Yes, there is a reason to be concerned and vigilant; but some fears are overblown and not taking enough factors into account. In fear, I think people can lose sight of some of the unique benefits that the US still has over other places in the world – one of the most modern nations on the planet, with a sizeable population over a very vast area of land, with only two bordering nations and a lot of ocean on either side.

    The crazies are simply too paranoid and too incompetent to be able to pull of anything bigger than a few localized incidents at best. Too much of the rest of our population would be turned off by any such attempts and they would likely garnish more backlash than support a growing movement. We are simply too vast and spread out in size for these various localized pockets of crazy to coordinate and spread, without being detected and addressed in quick fashion. As much as the crazies might be awash in guns and ammo, our legitimate government agencies have access to even more – and more powerful equipment too, along with the ability to quickly transport assets and equipment, in a way that no small band of malcontent insurgents could match. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that such an attempted uprising could get very far, before being found out and “contained” by law enforcement agency resources alone.

    Lupin: Movement or not, if I were you, I’d worry a little (although I’m sure your FBI is on to all this). This is how it started in Sarajevo. The problem with armed dissidence even when from a handful of nuts is that it ends up creating the strong regimes they object to.

  18. avatar
    Lupin September 5, 2012 at 5:33 am #

    G: Of course we worry a little, as nobody wants to see any harm or damage occur at all. Although, as the SPLC tracks, there has been quite an uptick in fringe groups of “concern”, there is still good reason to be confident that the appropriate branches of law enforcement are monitoring the situation and more importantly – that they can step in to contain and resolve any threat outbr

    Plus, as I said, I think your FBI is probably very well informed about all these kooks.

    G: We are simply too vast and spread out in size for these various localized pockets of crazy to coordinate and spread

    eak from these types of groups.

    I don’t think they’d spread; one can’t imagine the Coasts falling prey to this nuttery, no way, no how; but they might fragment or secede, or simply cause ongoing pockets of trouble. This is what you find in some third-world countries: outlying regions where the Central Government lacks the will or resources to enforce its rule.

  19. avatar
    The Magic M September 5, 2012 at 8:04 am #

    CarlOrcas: Some of the folks are absolutely sure they’re on the way to be used by the government against them.

    Whatever happened to the thousands of Chinese soldiers that some people claimed they saw setting up camp somewhere in the desert? It’s always fascinating to revisit the “soon they will…” claims some years after. Of course the conspiracist always has an explanation…

  20. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 5, 2012 at 8:18 am #

    Thanks. Updated.

    Phil Cave: JAG Hunter is none other than Walter Fitzpatrick.

  21. avatar
    Thrifty September 5, 2012 at 10:05 am #

    G: The crazies are simply too paranoid and too incompetent to be able to pull of anything bigger than a few localized incidents at best. Too much of the rest of our population would be turned off by any such attempts and they would likely garnish more backlash than support a growing movement.

    I recently became aware of and quite enjoy the true crime documentary series “I (Almost) Got Away with It”. It’s on either A&E or the National Geographic Channel. I dunno. I usually just catch up when a new season makes it to Netflix on Demand.

    There was a season 2 episode about a standoff with a separatist group in Texas. The FBI ended the standoff with no casualties, so that was good. Two of the separatists escaped. One was caught a day later while the other (the star of this episode) managed to stay on the run for a while longer.

    One of the interesting points the documentary showed was that pretty much everyone in that area of Texas hated the separatists (aside from the separatists themselves). When our star was on the run, he had an exceptionally difficult time finding refuge largely because of this. And this was in rural Texas.

    Of course, people like Lupin are unable to grasp this idea that the vast majority of Americans are not militant extremists and seem to believe that any radical idea expressed by anyone puts the entire nation in jeopardy.

  22. avatar
    CarlOrcas September 5, 2012 at 10:22 am #

    The Magic M: Whatever happened to the thousands of Chinese soldiers that some people claimed they saw setting up camp somewhere in the desert?

    How about all the FEMA camps that are just awaiting orders from Washington to open their gates????

    The list is endless.

  23. avatar
    The Magic M September 5, 2012 at 10:34 am #

    Phil Cave: JAG Hunter is none other than Walter Fitzpatrick.

    I’ve known this for a long time, from back when the Post & Email was still freely accessible and Walt’s rants contained many links to that site. If I had known Doc didn’t know that, I’d have said something earlier.

  24. avatar
    The Magic M September 5, 2012 at 10:36 am #

    CarlOrcas: How about all the FEMA camps that are just awaiting orders from Washington to open their gates?

    Right after the elections… 😉

    Sometimes the wingnuts’ handling of failed predictions reminds me of the endless reiterations from some movie series like “Omen”. First, it’s about preventing the child of the devil to be born to prevent it from bringing forth the apocalypse. Then, after that failed, in the next movie it’s “prevent the child of the devil from having a child” because “that one is going to bring forth the apocalypse, really now, I swear”.

  25. avatar
    Lupin September 5, 2012 at 11:27 am #

    Thrifty: Of course, people like Lupin are unable to grasp this idea that the vast majority of Americans are not militant extremists and seem to believe that any radical idea expressed by anyone puts the entire nation in jeopardy.

    This is, of course, a completely idiotic statement (not surprisingly) on so many levels I don’t know where to start.

    First, no majority of any people anywhere are “extremists”, because of the very definition of “extremism”. Otherwise they wouldn’t be called “extremists”, they’d be mainstream! Besides, revolutions and civil wars were always started by minorities. Areas around the world ruled by warlords or separatists or political extremists are rarely democratic in nature. Still, they exist.

    Two, the “vast majority of Americans” (as you put it) is far more likely to be armed than in most other western nations, and that is not a recipe for stability, unless you have a strong counterforce to weed out the truly dangerous elements. Which is why I mentioned and praised your FBI which I think has done a terrific, even unappreciated, job in that respect. So acting with your usual bad faith, you’re debating a strawman.

    Third, I never said that the “entire nation would be in jeopardy” if a bunch of crazies started shooting at law & order officers in Montana. In fact, I said the very opposite: that such phenomena would bring about a stronger executive. Arguably, it’s already happened: the patriot act and other similar measures have trampled your Constitution, and the police response to the Occupy movement in various cities was truly disgraceful. In other words, in my view you’re not heading towards Mad Max-land, but Putin’s Russia.

    I know your blind chauvinism leads you to overreact to any real or imaginary slight against your country and take it as a personal attack, but you should really take a deep breath and relax.

    It may be hard for you to believe but most of us here would like to see America return to the America we all loved and admired from the 1960s to the 1990s. I’m sure most of you would like that too. But we’re not the ones who trashed your country; you did.

  26. avatar
    CarlOrcas September 5, 2012 at 12:07 pm #

    Lupin: First, no majority of any people anywhere are “extremists”, because of the very definition of “extremism”. Otherwise they wouldn’t be called “extremists”, they’d be mainstream!

    That’s not the definition of extremism but we’ll leave that for another time.

    Lupin: Two, the “vast majority of Americans” (as you put it) is far more likely to be armed than in most other western nations, and that is not a recipe for stability,

    Wrong again. Best estimates are that there are about 80 million gun owners. That’s about a quarter of the population.

    Lupin: It may be hard for you to believe but most of us here would like to see America return to the America we all loved and admired from the 1960s to the 1990s.

    Your ignorance is breathtaking. Loving the America of the 60’s means you love segregation, police dogs attacking black demonstrators, police beating political demonstrators in the streets of Chicago, Watergate, Vietnam. Which of those did you admire the most, Lupin?

    Lupin: I’m sure most of you would like that too. But we’re not the ones who trashed your country; you did.

    There are lots of things to criticize about America – especially since September 11th – but the answer is not to turn back the clock.

  27. avatar
    Dave B. September 5, 2012 at 12:14 pm #

    misha:
    What gives with Montana?
    http://fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/troops-in-kalispell-montana-columbia-fall-under-northcom-command/20551/

    Troops In Kalispell Montana…

    The doofus who wrote the teaser over there said “Kalispell MO”

  28. avatar
    CarlOrcas September 5, 2012 at 1:05 pm #

    Dave B.: The doofus who wrote the teaser over there said “Kalispell MO”

    Deeper down in the blog I found this……..

    http://www.kpax.com/news/columbia-falls-hosts-disaster-training-exercise/

    Another good story ruined by overchecking!!

  29. avatar
    James M September 5, 2012 at 1:24 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Wrong again. Best estimates are that there are about 80 million gun owners. That’s about a quarter of the population.

    Which is Lupin’s point: This makes the average American far more likely to be armed than in any other country (not just “Western” nations.) Second, third, and fourth after us are Serbia, Yemen, and Switzerland. Switzerland doesn’t count because the gun laws there are a _requirement_ to own them.

  30. avatar
    Paper September 5, 2012 at 1:44 pm #

    The loss of a certain mojo out in the world, I understand. But where I have to differ is that this country is not trashed.

    The challenges and issues we face are not even unique in our history; our history is pervaded with the dialect of freedom/authority. The 60s were infested with Hoover’s FBI. The 70s began with Nixon and his legacy. The 80s were brought to us by Reagan, who launched the war on drugs, for one thing. Before all that, to take a step further back, FDR rounded up the Japanese. Let’s not forget, as well, how we have *always* treated the Native Americans.

    I really do not want to return to that America. I love this America, where gay rights are breaking through, and where we have an African-American president. I love that a number of my nephews and nieces are openly having a variety of multiracial relationships. I wish the 60s-90s had been like that for me. I do want an America more active in the great discoveries, inventions and projects of the century. That’s the cool factor of going to the moon in the 60s/70s, of artistic vitality as well. But that is a different concern than thinking this country is trashed.

    I have travelled a lot and dated a few times long distance across the oceans, and I understand the European (as well as Middle Eastern) perspective about Americans. But I also understand it is just as skewed as any such perspective. I’d like America to be considered cool, but the international perspective is more about the opinions of the moment than what is true about this country.

    We have always sucked, and always been great. So at the moment people focus on some of the parts that suck. I have spent much of my life listening to my family talk about America going down the tubes, and those are the ones who are birthers and conspiracy theorists and the like. My parents want to go back to the their childhoods, when all was wonderful, because it was in the 60s that it all started to go bad in their opinion. The period you think was so great, they despise. Except for Reagan, mind you.

    Anyway, feel free to discuss our issues; we certainly do. We may need to up our game, but that is whole different matter than saying the country is trashed.

    In many ways, the country has never been better. We may just need to act like it more.

    Lupin:

    It may be hard for you to believe but most of us here would like to see America return to the America we all loved and admired from the 1960s to the 1990s. I’m sure most of you would like that too. But we’re not the ones who trashed your country; you did.

  31. avatar
    ellen September 5, 2012 at 1:57 pm #

    As you know now, I am an anti-birther.

    Hoping someone will help me take on the embossed/debossed nuts over at this site http://www.topix.com/forum/who/barack-obama/TC6SGHF806TJRRBUB/p4720#lastPost.

    I am getting tired.

  32. avatar
    G September 5, 2012 at 2:14 pm #

    I agree. It is too easy for all of us to selectively focus on current and past elements through oversimplified lenses of good and bad, nostalgia and frustration.

    The reality and whole picture has always been much more complex than that. There certainly is a heightened polarization at this particular point in time and a lot of problems that have suffered neglect for way too long. Some trends in policy are certainly worrisome.

    But at the same time, other trends are encouraging and other advances open up areas of possibility and opportunity that past generations didn’t have.

    So the true picture is always a mixed bag. Yes, I too share the concerns of certain current trends and where they could lead, if left unchecked or not corrected. But I also recognize some of the amazing developments and gains, even if some of those seem as nothing more than baby steps to others…or conversely, seem to “rapid” to manage effectively. I want a better America, but that doesn’t mean that I’ve lost faith in this great country at all, nor that I would wish to go back to the past.

    So while I have certain strong views and concerns, I’ve never lost my sense of optimism, even when I get cycnical. I try to keep my perspective from getting too narrow and keep the bigger perspective in mind. From that vantage point, I do not see any of the current problems or trends as insurmountable or beyond the ability to change or correct. It just requires effort.

    We live in a vast and diverse world, where the pace of change is only going to continue to increase and the interconnectedness between peoples will only become more important. I think the overarching direction of mankind and of America remains intact, (even though it faces constant challenges and strains) – towards progress, advancement and in general, a better treatment and understanding of one another.

    Paper: But I also understand it is just as skewed as any such perspective . I’d like America to be considered cool, but the international perspective is more about the opinions of the moment than what is true about this country.

    We have always sucked, and always been great. So at the moment people focus on some of the parts that suck. I have spent much of my life listening to my family talk about America going down the tubes, and those are the ones who are birthers and conspiracy theorists and the like. My parents want to go back to the their childhoods, when all was wonderful, because it was in the 60s that it all started to go bad in their opinion. The period you think was so great, they despise. Except for Reagan, mind you.

    Anyway, feel free to discuss our issues; we certainly do. We may need to up our game, but that is whole different matter than saying the country is trashed.
    In many ways, the country has never been better. We may just need to act like it more.

  33. avatar
    Thomas Brown September 5, 2012 at 2:23 pm #

    ellen:
    As you know now, I am an anti-birther.

    Hoping someone will help me take on the embossed/debossed nuts over at this site http://www.topix.com/forum/who/barack-obama/TC6SGHF806TJRRBUB/p4720#lastPost.

    I am getting tired.

    I went to John Woodman’s site and searched on “embossed” and a lot turned up, including the fact that he addressed it in his book. And doing a search on “embossed seal” on THIS site turns up info as well.

    That’s all I could do now; I’ll try to find better links or excerpts later. I’m tired as well, but I owe you for calling you a Birther.

  34. avatar
    misha September 5, 2012 at 2:47 pm #

    ellen: As you know now, I am an anti-birther. Hoping someone will help me take on the embossed/debossed nuts over at this site http://www.topix.com/forum/who/barack-obama/TC6SGHF806TJRRBUB/p4720#lastPost. I am getting tired.

    1 – Refer him to my article:
    http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/03/obama-born-in-kenya-no.html

    2 – Tell him to write to his Congressman and two senators, with his concerns. Also, tell him to write to Sheriff Arpaio, and ask when he will present his findings to a Grand Jury and ask for a Congressional investigation.

    3 – Tell him to donate generously to Orly Taitz. I’m sure she will put his money to good use – like the time she flew to Israel, and said on Israeli TV she knows for a fact, that Obama paid off McCain and everyone else.

    4 – At the end of all of this, tell him to get drunk – or Xanax.

  35. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 5, 2012 at 5:03 pm #

    It’s not something I keep up with. Commenter Black Lion mentioned this back in 2010:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/12/another-record-media-month-for-obama-conspiracies/#comment-31091

    Normally my policy is not to reveal the private identities of bloggers, but Fitzpatrick has injected himself into the story under his real name already.

    The Magic M: I’ve known this for a long time, from back when the Post & Email was still freely accessible and Walt’s rants contained many links to that site. If I had known Doc didn’t know that, I’d have said something earlier.

  36. avatar
    Dave B. September 5, 2012 at 5:52 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Deeper down in the blog I found this……..

    Did you catch the one about “Man dressed as Sasquatch hit and killed near Kalispell”? What a world.

  37. avatar
    CarlOrcas September 5, 2012 at 8:05 pm #

    James M: Which is Lupin’s point:This makes the average American far more likely to be armed than in any other country (not just “Western” nations.)Second, third, and fourth after us are Serbia, Yemen, and Switzerland.Switzerland doesn’t count because the gun laws there are a _requirement_ to own them.

    Lupin said: “Two, the “vast majority of Americans” (as you put it) is far more likely to be armed than in most other western nations, and that is not a recipe for stability,”

    The truth is that the “vasty majority of Americans” are not likely to be armed….period.

  38. avatar
    CarlOrcas September 5, 2012 at 8:06 pm #

    Dave B.: Did you catch the one about “Man dressed as Sasquatch hit and killed near Kalispell”?What a world.

    Darn. I missed that one.

  39. avatar
    Woodrowfan September 5, 2012 at 10:05 pm #

    “Whatever happened to the thousands of Chinese soldiers that some people claimed they saw setting up camp somewhere in the desert? ”

    they all deserted and opened restaurants I think….

  40. avatar
    G September 5, 2012 at 10:16 pm #

    Agreed. I sure hope the international community hasn’t been mislead to think that us Americans walk around like cowboys in the wild west…

    It would be strange in most places here to see average folks walking around with guns at all. Just want to reassure our foreign followers of that.

    CarlOrcas: The truth is that the “vasty majority of Americans” are not likely to be armed….period.

  41. avatar
    CarlOrcas September 5, 2012 at 11:06 pm #

    G: Agreed. I sure hope the international community hasn’t been mislead to think that us Americans walk around like cowboys in the wild west…

    I’ve spent a fair amount of time in Europe, Australia and New Zealand and we’ve done a pretty good job of convincing them we are a country of Charles Bronson wannabes.

    The folks who have spent time her know better…..just like those of us who have spent time in other countries and the various parts of our country know that people really aren’t all that different anywhere.

  42. avatar
    brygenon September 6, 2012 at 2:46 am #

    ellen:
    As you know now, I am an anti-birther.

    Hoping someone will help me take on the embossed/debossed nuts over at this site http://www.topix.com/forum/who/barack-obama/TC6SGHF806TJRRBUB/p4720#lastPost.

    I am getting tired.

    Don’t know when or if it will appear there, but I tried.

    Background for other readers: this is the nonsensically trivial issue Dr. C. discussed in http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/05/is-the-seal-bassackwards/ Here’s my reply to the guy pushing it.

    [QUOTE who=”Dave69X69″]
    No court has commented on the seal on the short form. Nice try.
    [/QUOTE]

    Courts don’t vet presidents, but the issue could come up in other cases. I would love to see you, Dave, cite a court rejecting a Hawaii birth certificate, or any other birth certificate, or any other state record, for the reason that the seal was debossed rather than embossed. Has that happened even once?

    [QUOTE who=”Dave69X69″]
    The seal is debossed, not embossed as legally required.[/QUOTE]

    28 USC 1739, in which Congress prescribes how state records shall be proved, uses the language, “[…] and the seal of his office annexed, if there be a seal”. Embossed is not required. “Annexed”. Look it up.

    The State Department’s web page on obtaining a passport call for a birth certificate with a, “Raised, embossed, impressed or multicolored seal of issuing authority”. The law they cite, 22 CFR 51.42(a), merely says, “bear the seal of the issuing office”.

    Finally see, Hawaii Public Health Regulations, Chapter 8b(2.4)(B)(1)(b), with the language, “impressed with the raised seal”. Not embossed with the raised seal. Not carrying a raised seal. They take their raised seal, and impress the document with it, leaving the “debossed” image we see.

  43. avatar
    The Magic M September 6, 2012 at 3:59 am #

    CarlOrcas: I’ve spent a fair amount of time in Europe, Australia and New Zealand and we’ve done a pretty good job of convincing them we are a country of Charles Bronson wannabes.

    I’m not so sure. Agreed, the knowledge that “everyone may own guns” may lead some people to think you all have a good supply of AK-47’s in your basement, but you only need to look at the number of people running amok with a gun compared between Europe and the US and you will realize it doesn’t differ that much.

    Our German gun laws are pretty strict on one side, then again it usually suffices to register as sports shooter to get a permission to own (if your criminal slate is clean).
    “Concealed carry” is pretty much non-existent, I think you need to work for a registered security company to be allowed to do that. Other than that, transport is only allowed if you legally own the gun, keep it in a locked compartment and seperate from ammo.

    My father used to legally own a gun (pistol, not rifle) because of his position in a special part of the armed forces (he was considered an “endangered person” during the Cold War). He returned it last year, realizing it doesn’t make sense for an 88-year-old to have it, he could probably hardly lift it anymore.

    The last guy who ran amok with a gun over here was a 17-year-old who stole the guns from his father (who had neglected to lock them up properly and is currently on trial for damages).

  44. avatar
    Lupin September 6, 2012 at 4:11 am #

    CarlOrcas: The truth is that the “vasty majority of Americans” are not likely to be armed….period.

    You’re correct: according to Gallup, the % of armed Americans is… 47%

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx

    So definitely not the “vast majority” — although almost 1 out of 2. But I was wrong, although in my defense I was comparing it to European countries.

  45. avatar
    Lupin September 6, 2012 at 4:30 am #

    Paper: But where I have to differ is that this country is not trashed.

    Yes, maybe “trashed” is hyperbolic and like all such statements, somewhat of an exaggeration.

    Still, as a lawyer, I’m firmly in the camp of the followers of Glenn Greenwald who believe (and reasonable persons may disagree on this) that, since 2001, the US Government has “trashed” — or shall we say negated or discarded? — many of the rights once enshrined in your Constitution.

    The US Constitution is a splendid document, something truly unique and the admiration of many scholars throughout the world. I was in my early 20ies, a law student, during the Watergate scandal and you can’t imagine how much in awe of your political system we were then. This was something we could only aspire to, especially emerging from the Gaullist regime.

    Frankly, I’m glad that President Obama may be reelected, as his opposition is ghastly beyond words, but for a Constitutional scholar, his record in that area has been appalling.

    Your country’s recent actions in terms of civil rights at home and abroad is terrible, and a very bad example for the rest of us, who once did use the US as a model, but now face a litany of “if the Americans do it, then why shouldn’t we do the same?”

    Interestingly, I was rereading John Le Carré’s THE SECRET PILGRIM in which George Smiley issues the same warning, that after taking down the Bear (the USSR), the danger is that we (you) will become the Bear.

    Don’t get me started on France! But the point is, we were never “good” or a “model” (nor should we have been).

  46. avatar
    Lupin September 6, 2012 at 4:38 am #

    G: The reality and whole picture has always been much more complex than that. There certainly is a heightened polarization at this particular point in time and a lot of problems that have suffered neglect for way too long. Some trends in policy are certainly worrisome.

    But at the same time, other trends are encouraging and other advances open up areas of possibility and opportunity that past generations didn’t have.

    So the true picture is always a mixed bag.

    This is certainly true, but at the end of the day, we can’t be like a Jackie Mason routine and simply go “meh” 🙂

    Certainly, Europe and Russia have undergone enormous changes since the 60s. Some good, some bad, as you say — and the definition of that often depends on whom you’re talking to. In that we agree.

    I don’t think anyone here would argue that America is and will remain unchanging. You’re the elephant in the lifeboat so everyone is interested in what happens to the US. The tricky bit is to try to identify and perhaps even predict these changes.

    I am in fact extremely moderate in my analysis. If you want to read someone far more extreme and yet part of the global discussion, try Dmitry Orlov:
    http://cluborlov.blogspot.fr/

  47. avatar
    CarlOrcas September 6, 2012 at 6:57 am #

    Lupin: You’re correct: according to Gallup, the % of armed Americans is… 47%

    That’s not what the Gallup Poll says. It says “Forty-seven percent of American adults currently report that they have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property…..”

    Further down in the report you cite is the following clarification:

    “Since 2000, Gallup has asked respondents with guns in their households a follow-up question to determine if the gun belongs to the respondent or to someone else. On this basis, Gallup finds that 34% of all Americans personally own a gun.”

    What it means is that a number of people live in homes with someone who owns guns but do not own any their own.

    Lupin: So definitely not the “vast majority” — although almost 1 out of 2. But I was wrong, although in my defense I was comparing it to European countries.

    The Gallup Poll would indicate 1 in 3…..not 1 in 2…..and that’s at the high end of estimates I have seen over the years.

  48. avatar
    Pastor Charmley September 6, 2012 at 8:05 am #

    Once again I am amused by the fact that Birthers are repeating, probably unknowingly, the process that played out among the Truthers four years ago. It makes me wonder what will happen if Romney does get elected. What movement will there be against him? Or will this demonisation of the president one does not like cease? That I doubt; it’s so much easier than actually dealing with real issues.

    Bush did not declare martial law, nor will Obama. also, martial law is not what the nit-wit conspiracy theorists think it is.

  49. avatar
    Paper September 6, 2012 at 9:02 am #

    The core conspiracists In my family think Romney is just as bad….they prefer Ron Paul, who seems to be the only uncorrupt, non-NWO politician in existence. My big question is whether or not they will actually skip voting as they have told me they will, or if they will write in Ron Paul, or if they will decide to vote Romney at the last minute.

    Pastor Charmley:
    Once again I am amused by the fact that Birthers are repeating, probably unknowingly, the process that played out among the Truthers four years ago. It makes me wonder what will happen if Romney does get elected. What movement will there be against him? Or will this demonisation of the president one does not like cease? That I doubt; it’s so much easier than actually dealing with real issues.

    Bush did not declare martial law, nor will Obama. also, martial law is not what the nit-wit conspiracy theorists think it is.

  50. avatar
    G September 6, 2012 at 10:33 am #

    I will take that statement as made in jest by you. I’m fairly sure that you realize that we are not simply going “meh” about these issues. We take them seriously, but we are also take them within a broader context. We are concerned vigilants but not paranoid alarmists.

    Lupin: This is certainly true, but at the end of the day, we can’t be like a Jackie Mason routine and simply go “meh”

    Yes Lupin, please let that key point sink in – there is a vast difference between under half of the population merely owning a gun (or guns) in their household and people walking around, packing heat…

    Again, the streets are simply not filled with armed civilians. This is NOT the wild west. Even in all the places that have passed the concealed-carry laws, there is only a small number of people that do that.

    CarlOrcas: That’s not what the Gallup Poll says. It says “Forty-seven percent of American adults currently report that they have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property…..”Further down in the report you cite is the following clarification:“Since 2000, Gallup has asked respondents with guns in their households a follow-up question to determine if the gun belongs to the respondent or to someone else. On this basis, Gallup finds that 34% of all Americans personally own a gun.”What it means is that a number of people live in homes with someone who owns guns but do not own any their own.The Gallup Poll would indicate 1 in 3…..not 1 in 2…..and that’s at the high end of estimates I have seen over the years.

  51. avatar
    1% Silver Nitrate September 6, 2012 at 10:35 am #

    G: Nope, not new at all. We’ve had these types of paranoid crazies around for at least the past 20 years or more. They really are what we call the “black helicopter” crowd and the “tax-protester nuts”. Some of them gather in enclaves and “bunker down” and sometimes act out in a way that leads to their own demise. The incidents of Ruby Ridge and Waco in the 1990s come to mind…

    Ruby Ridge was Idaho, Waco was Texas. For actual Montana-centric nuttiness, nothing beats the case of the Montana Freemen:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Freemen

  52. avatar
    CarlOrcas September 6, 2012 at 10:37 am #

    The Magic M: I’m not so sure. Agreed, the knowledge that “everyone may own guns” may lead some people to think you all have a good supply of AK-47′s in your basement, but you only need to look at the number of people running amok with a gun compared between Europe and the US and you will realize it doesn’t differ that much.

    Actually murder rates – and particularly gun murder rates – are much higher in the U.S.than they are in virtually all western countries.

    While we don’t have as many gun owners as Lupin thinks, we do have enough that combined with the ease with which one can be acquired makes for a deadly situation particularly for young men.

  53. avatar
    G September 6, 2012 at 10:39 am #

    Yes, unfortunately, that is quite true…

    CarlOrcas: Actually murder rates – and particularly gun murder rates – are much higher in the U.S.than they are in virtually all western countries.While we don’t have as many gun owners as Lupin thinks, we do have enough that combined with the ease with which one can be acquired makes for a deadly situation particularly for young men.

  54. avatar
    The Magic M September 6, 2012 at 10:52 am #

    Pastor Charmley: It makes me wonder what will happen if Romney does get elected. What movement will there be against him? Or will this demonisation of the president one does not like cease?

    It will depend on what happens during the next presidential term.

    First, there’s always a core group of loons who believe “he’s on the NWO payroll” no matter who is President (even if Ron Paul or Lyndon LaRouche became President, some people would believe that).

    Then, you have to remember Bush Derangement Syndrome never was recognizable until 9/11. (At least I wasn’t aware of it as much as truthers and birthers caught my interest.)

    So for some true Romney Derangement Syndrome, you’d need something to happen that fuels it.
    And before you ask: in my opinion, Obama is not a counter-example; in his case, his mere existence as a black President with a Muslim-sounding name was enough to trigger ODS. He didn’t need any wars or scandals or other significant events, though the economic depression surely helped.
    But the mere fact he became President was probably more shocking to potential ODS patients than an A-bomb going off in downtown Dallas.

  55. avatar
    Lupin September 6, 2012 at 11:47 am #

    @ G, CarlOrcas:

    I’m happy to concede that you are right and I was wrong in my reading of the Gallup data — although I think the figures are still high — and further that, as G aptly put it, the streets of America are NOT the Wild West. Point taken.

    Remember, however, that I was using the reference to guns in my original argument purely as a factor that, in my opinion, might add to social unrest and chaos, thereby provoking a stronger reaction from the police and national guards.

    If there is to be some unrest somewhere, would you agree or disagree with me that guns would add an extra volatility factor to the equation?

    That said, I will readily admit that I agree with your own Michael Moore (BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE) when it comes to guns and gun control in America.

  56. avatar
    Keith September 6, 2012 at 6:31 pm #

    Paper:
    The core conspiracists In my family think Romney is just as bad….they prefer Ron Paul, who seems to be the only uncorrupt, non-NWO politician in existence.My big question is whether or not they will actually skip voting as they have told me they will, or if they will write in Ron Paul, or if they will decide to vote Romney at the last minute.

    Which is astounding since Ron Paul is the only politician with an actual conspiracy to destroy America from the inside out – by totally destroying the education system. Main stream Repub’s don’t like edumacation either, but don’t seem to want to wipe it out altogether like Paul.

  57. avatar
    G September 6, 2012 at 7:17 pm #

    Actually, many in the the Tea Party / Evangelical wings of the GOP want to destroy the the education system. Quite a few of them, frighteningly, hold office.

    So sadly, you are wrong in saying that Ron Paul is the “only” politician that wants that… the scary truth is that particular desire is much, more more widely held on that side of the aisle…

    Keith: Which is astounding since Ron Paul is the only politician with an actual conspiracy to destroy America from the inside out – by totally destroying the education system. Main stream Repub’s don’t like edumacation either, but don’t seem to want to wipe it out altogether like Paul.

  58. avatar
    G September 6, 2012 at 7:22 pm #

    Oh, I agree with you on that, absolutely! As I and others have mentioned, you only have to look to previous examples, such as Ruby Ridge and groups like the Montanta Freemen (and yes, Waco) to see how that plays out…

    In more recent times, there have been a number of (thankfully) foiled plots that would have caused such danger. Just last month was the big story about the young military guys who were buying lots of weapons and wanted to cause mass harm, but only got caught, because they ended up killing one of their former buddies and his girlfriend. Then there was the Hutaree Militia group in Michican… and there are many other examples out there.

    That being said, as scary and real as these threats are, it is important to realize that at their worst, they cause no more harm than being very localized and protracted standoffs with our law enforcement…and they always end badly for the crazies that incite them.

    Lupin: If there is to be some unrest somewhere, would you agree or disagree with me that guns would add an extra volatility factor to the equation?

  59. avatar
    CarlOrcas September 6, 2012 at 9:12 pm #

    Lupin: If there is to be some unrest somewhere, would you agree or disagree with me that guns would add an extra volatility factor to the equation?

    Of course guns “add an extra volatility factor” into any situation because……they’re instruments of violence.

    You ask the question as if there hasn’t been violent unrest here in the past. Of course the U.S., like many countries, was founded during violent unrest.

    The following 200 plus years are peppered with incidents precipitated by politics, race, money…..you name it. Some were made worse by the presence of guns and some weren’t.

    The Civil War was the obvious worst case situation but it was a war that grew out of “unrest”.

    In the 20th century, particularly the post WWII period, there were lots of incidences of political and racial unrest and most were not made worse by guns. Kent State is the exception.

    The point is that if the U.S. was going to be thrown into the sort of chaos you envision it could have happened many times in the past 250 years. It wasn’t and the reason, that you don’t seem to understand, is that its strengths are greater than the weaknesses that precipitated those incidents.