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Tabulating the cost of defending a birther lawsuit

You should have known better

imageAttorneys for the Democratic Party are getting in line for a piece of the birthers. This time it’s in Tennessee in the case of Liberty Legal Foundation v. National Democratic Party of the USA, Inc. (sic). The US District Court for the Western District of Tennessee dismissed the suit and granted reasonable attorney’s fees to be awarded to the defendants.

In a document filed late last week, the Defense details what those fees are. According the filing, the total cost of defending the lawsuit amounted to $69,932.50. Only the portion allocated to the Motion to dismiss and the Sanctions motion is to be awarded, and that comes to $22,800.

The sanctions order is being appealed.

Can you imagine what the fees would be for Orly Taitz in her case styled Judd v. Obama with no less than 31 defendants? Half a million?

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121 Responses to Tabulating the cost of defending a birther lawsuit

  1. avatar
    foreigner September 18, 2012 at 11:33 am #

    so, only ~1/3 of the dismissing fees are paid
    Wouldn’t it be better to decide once and for ever
    instead of dismissing again and again …

  2. avatar
    DaveH September 18, 2012 at 11:50 am #

    There’s no reason to decide. The law is clear.

    foreigner:
    so, only ~1/3 of the dismissing fees are paid
    Wouldn’t it be better to decide once and for ever
    instead of dismissing again and again …

  3. avatar
    Thrifty September 18, 2012 at 11:57 am #

    Did you ever consider that the cases being dismissed ARE the matter being decided? I think Birthers have this weird delusion that the only valid court decisions are “yes” and “maybe”–that “no” just doesn’t exist.

    foreigner:
    so, only ~1/3 of the dismissing fees are paid
    Wouldn’t it be better to decide once and for ever
    instead of dismissing again and again …

  4. avatar
    Thrifty September 18, 2012 at 12:07 pm #

    In a document filed late last week, the Defense details what those fees are. According the filing, the total cost of defending the lawsuit amounted to $69,932.50. Only the portion allocated to the Motion to dismiss and the Sanctions motion is to be awarded, and that comes to $22,800.

    Ouch.

    I actually feel sorry for Orly Taitz. That’s got to be one scary headspace to be living it. I mean sure, we can point to her abrasive attitude, her constant labelling of her opponents as traitors, her frivolous law suits, her tendency to rile up her supporters to incite a lone wolf to take violent action, and her web site’s terrible formatting.

    But… I mean.. I don’t think she’s a bad person. I think that she thinks that she’s doing the right thing. Imagine if you were in her mind. You think that the election was illegally stolen by a man who has perpetuated multiple frauds. You think that this man is dragging the country down into a Hellish dystopia. You think that this man has committed multiple felonies, and he’s getting away with it. You try to fight, but every judge is on his side. No matter how hard you fight, you are defeated at every turn. And the defeat is made all the more agonizing by how high you think the stakes are.

    It’s like if you had severe delusions that an alien fleet was coming to destroy the Earth. They could be defeated, but only if the armies of the world built your anti-alien death ray for the modest price of 20 billion dollars. 20 billion dollars is a drop in the bucket to save humanity! But of course, they won’t, because they know you’re a nutcase and they have better things to waste 20 billion dollars on. So you spend your days terrified of the impending doom, forever fighting to try and get your death ray built, but never coming close to succeeeding.

    It’s just a terrible mental state to be, and I’d hate to be there.

  5. avatar
    Scientist September 18, 2012 at 12:15 pm #

    foreigner: so, only ~1/3 of the dismissing fees are paidWouldn’t it be better to decide once and for everinstead of dismissing again and again …

    As pointed out, dismissal IS a decision. But suppose one case went to trial and got an actual ruling? Nothing would stop some other birther from filing another case.

    You seem very naive to me in your persistent belief that somehow, if only Obama would “say the right words” or follow a certain strategy, lunatics would stop being lunatics.

  6. avatar
    G September 18, 2012 at 12:15 pm #

    Agreed!

    Thrifty:
    Did you ever consider that the cases being dismissed ARE the matter being decided?I think Birthers have this weird delusion that the only valid court decisions are “yes” and “maybe”–that “no” just doesn’t exist.

  7. avatar
    The Magic M September 18, 2012 at 12:16 pm #

    Thrifty: I actually feel sorry for Orly Taitz.

    We all have felt this way, I guess. But at some point, you simply start to believe that she had it coming and deserves it. She’s not the pitiful kind of crazy who fights the almighty windmills, she’s the one who sends stalkers after anyone who dares to tell her “no” and the one who thinks the world should work at her command.
    She’s not Don Quixote crazy, she’s Mussolini crazy.

  8. avatar
    G September 18, 2012 at 12:20 pm #

    The ONLY reason that 1/3 of the dismissing fees are being paid is clear in the ruling – because ONLY the fees in regards to the MTD documment portion of the case and not the entire case, were ruled as being recoverable here.

    The rest of your question is absurd and backwards. The rational conclusion is the opposite: the Birthers are the ones that start 100% of these cases and therefore THEY are the ones who are responsible for wasting a huge amount of time and money in people having to respond to such frivolous nonsense.

    The courts HAVE ruled on several hundred of these cases now. ALL conclusions have been the same and ALL Birthers have been properly told NO under the law. NO is a valid answer. What part of NO do you no grasp or understand after several hundred similar attempts???

    How can you really be this dense? Why is this so hard for you to grasp??? This is a really simple concept.

    foreigner:
    so, only ~1/3 of the dismissing fees are paid
    Wouldn’t it be better to decide once and for ever
    instead of dismissing again and again …

  9. avatar
    Loren September 18, 2012 at 12:28 pm #

    foreigner:
    so, only ~1/3 of the dismissing fees are paid
    Wouldn’t it be better to decide once and for ever
    instead of dismissing again and again …

    How quickly some people forget: in Georgia, it *was* decided. The Birthers got to put forth all their evidence and witnesses and legal arguments, and they LOST.

    Birthers don’t keep filing lawsuits in the hopes that some judge will decide that Obama is eligible. No, Birthers keep filing lawsuits in the hopes that some judge will decide that he’s NOT.

  10. avatar
    gorefan September 18, 2012 at 12:32 pm #

    Loren: How quickly some people forget: in Georgia, it *was* decided. The Birthers got to put forth all their evidence and witnesses and legal arguments, and they LOST.

    New Jersey, too

  11. avatar
    donna September 18, 2012 at 12:43 pm #

    Foreigner:

    why don’t you purchase the ditz’s DVD?

    from her website (emphasis mine)

    DVD of the HISTORIC TRIAL in GA (SHE LOST) and DVD of a HISTORIC TESTIMONY in NH (SHE LOST), where EVIDENCE WAS PROVIDED showing Obama using a forged birth certificate and a stolen social security number.

    IN FACT, the NH REPUBLICAN House Majority Leader D.J. Bettencourt wrote:

    “Please, Dr. Taitz, go away and leave New Hampshire alone”

  12. avatar
    G September 18, 2012 at 12:45 pm #

    Well said.

    I would additionally argue that at least 7-8 states now have court rulings that have clearly and openly decided as definitively as GA. Further, the AZ SOS’s decision has also accepted his HI BC info, via the HI confirmation, as decisive.

    Loren: How quickly some people forget: in Georgia, it *was* decided.The Birthers got to put forth all their evidence and witnesses and legal arguments, and they LOST.

    Birthers don’t keep filing lawsuits in the hopes that some judge will decide that Obama is eligible.

    No, Birthers keep filing lawsuits in the hopes that some judge will decide that he’s NOT.

  13. avatar
    foreigner September 18, 2012 at 12:57 pm #

    why do they say “dismissed”, when they mean “no” ?

  14. avatar
    misha September 18, 2012 at 1:01 pm #

    foreigner: Wouldn’t it be better to decide once and for ever

    It was: United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898), is a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court held that virtually everyone born in the United States is a U.S. citizen. This decision established an important precedent in its interpretation of the Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Wong_Kim_Ark

    The only way Obama could not be NBC, is if his father had diplomatic status.

  15. avatar
    misha September 18, 2012 at 1:04 pm #

    foreigner: why do they say “dismissed”, when they mean “no” ?

    When the court rules “dismissed”, it is because the suit is without merit.

  16. avatar
    Scientist September 18, 2012 at 1:04 pm #

    foreigner: why do they say “dismissed”, when they mean “no” ?

    Dismissed is actually a stronger “no” than going to trial and losing. It means your case was so weak that the bother and expense of a trial was pointless.

  17. avatar
    misha September 18, 2012 at 1:13 pm #

    The Magic M: She’s not Don Quixote crazy, she’s Mussolini crazy.

    Which has been my contention all along: she is a fascist, in the literal meaning of the word.

    The $20K did not shut her up. I think she is either on the edge of a breakdown, or her husband read her the riot act.

    With Romney’s video going viral, the Denialists must be frothing at the mouth.

  18. avatar
    misha September 18, 2012 at 1:15 pm #

    Scientist: Dismissed is actually a stronger “no” than going to trial and losing.It means your case was so weak that the bother and expense of a trial was pointless.

    And Mario has been hanging around drunks too long.

  19. avatar
    foreigner September 18, 2012 at 1:33 pm #

    misha, wikipedia says it’s controversial, although most scholars (>90%?) seem to believe
    that born in USA is sufficient.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born-citizen_clause#Academic_opinions
    > but the Supreme Court has never directly addressed the question of a specific
    > presidential or vice-presidential candidate’s eligibility as a natural-born citizen.
    ———————————————————————-
    misha, usually dismissed because of “lack of standing”. You must prove in USA that
    the issue has a direct effect to you. That doesn’t mean the issue itself is without merit.
    (as I understand)
    ———————————————————————-

  20. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 18, 2012 at 1:38 pm #

    This thing has been decided at least 7 times already. Having been decided, all that is left is to dismiss with sanctions.

    The reason that only 1/3 of the fees were assessed is due to a technical error on the part of the defense missing a deadline.

    foreigner: so, only ~1/3 of the dismissing fees are paid
    Wouldn’t it be better to decide once and for ever
    instead of dismissing again and again …

  21. avatar
    RuhRoh September 18, 2012 at 1:39 pm #

    Strunk was presented with a half million in legal bills back in May of this year, with only some of the defense attorneys submitting fees.

    I never did hear the outcome of that May sanctions hearing I attended.

  22. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 18, 2012 at 1:40 pm #

    Please don’t. I have a long-time fear of going crazy. It’s why I don’t drink.

    Thrifty: Imagine if you were in her mind.

  23. avatar
    Scientist September 18, 2012 at 1:46 pm #

    foreigner: but the Supreme Court has never directly addressed the question of a specific
    > presidential or vice-presidential candidate’s eligibility as a natural-born citizen.

    They don’t have to. Lower courts have said Obama is eligible. By doing nothing the Supreme Court makes those decisions the law of the land. Like Mike Godkin, you seem to believe that state courts and federal district courts don’t count. But they do. 100%.

    foreigner: misha, usually dismissed because of “lack of standing”. You must prove in USA that
    the issue has a direct effect to you. That doesn’t mean the issue itself is without merit.
    (as I understand)

    Do you actually read this site? Quite a few courts have specifically ruled that Obama is eligible, including several in the last few months. The idea that all the birther cases were dismissed without an examination of the merits is simply a lie. Do you know what we call people who repeat lies? Liars.

  24. avatar
    realist September 18, 2012 at 2:00 pm #

    foreigner:
    misha, wikipedia says it’s controversial, although most scholars (>90%?) seem to believe
    that born in USA is sufficient.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born-citizen_clause#Academic_opinions
    > but the Supreme Court has never directly addressed the question of a specific
    > presidential or vice-presidential candidate’s eligibility as a natural-born citizen.
    ———————————————————————-
    misha, usually dismissed because of “lack of standing”. You must prove in USA that
    the issue has a direct effect to you. That doesn’t mean the issue itself is without merit.
    (as I understand)
    ———————————————————————-

    They don’t have to. That ridiculous birther meme that they’ve not decided re a specific candidate is like saying Roe v Wade only applied to “Roe”.

  25. avatar
    Bob September 18, 2012 at 2:05 pm #

    Birthers need their own legal system . . . designed for their own country . . . somewhere . . . far, far away.

  26. avatar
    misha September 18, 2012 at 2:10 pm #

    foreigner: misha, wikipedia says it’s controversial, although most scholars (>90%?) seem to believe that born in USA is sufficient.

    but the Supreme Court has never directly addressed the question of a specific
    presidential or vice-presidential candidate’s eligibility as a natural-born citizen.
    ———————————————————————-
    misha, usually dismissed because of “lack of standing”. You must prove in USA that
    the issue has a direct effect to you. That doesn’t mean the issue itself is without merit.
    (as I understand)
    ———————————————————————-

    First, you are writing from Germany. Second, I am fed up with Denialists.

    The same people who scream about Obama were willing to amend the Constitution, so Arnold could run for president.

    And the issue is without merit. Obama will be re-elected, and Cory Booker will follow.

    Buffalo, NY, where both of my degrees are from, elected Byron Brown, a black man, as mayor. Buffalo is 65% white.

  27. avatar
    G September 18, 2012 at 2:10 pm #

    You are being dishonest again. Your very link does NOT imply at all what you just claimed.

    There is NO real controversy about NBC via birth on US soil – period.

    The ONLY areas of possible “controversy” are amongst those ADDITIONAL “jus sanguinis” permutation scenarios, in which the birth takes place outside of US soil.

    Stop pretending to be ignorant. You read this site. You’ve posted here for a long time. This issue has been discussed and covered repeatly and in much detail.

    You have NO excuse for feigning such ignorance on the matter on this point. You are just coming across as a shameless and deceptive liar.

    foreigner: misha, wikipedia says it’s controversial, although most scholars (>90%?) seem to believe
    that born in USA is sufficient.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born-citizen_clause#Academic_opinions
    > but the Supreme Court has never directly addressed the question of a specific
    > presidential or vice-presidential candidate’s eligibility as a natural-born citizen.

  28. avatar
    misha September 18, 2012 at 2:13 pm #

    realist: That ridiculous birther meme that they’ve not decided re a specific candidate is like saying Roe v Wade only applied to “Roe”.

    Thank you.

  29. avatar
    G September 18, 2012 at 2:16 pm #

    Dismissed means that the court has REJECTED your case. Whether it gets rejected very early or after a long court process, cases still get “dismissed” all the time. That is the proper legal term for the court saying NO.

    Further, as others already pointed out, you are being dishonest again here and ignoring that many (at least 7) of the recent cases this year have stated in their ruling that Obama IS eligible.

    You are not some casual stranger who is unaware of these things and who can pretend that they haven’t been following both this site and these cases fairly closely for a long time.

    So you have NO excuse to feign such ignorance. You are now just deceptively and openly lying. That is disrespectful. Please stop and act like an honest person and drop your clear and blatent Concern Troll act. No one is buying it and it is offensive that you would foolishly attempt to treat us with such disrespect for our awareness and memories of your own knowledge of these things.

    foreigner: misha, usually dismissed because of “lack of standing”. You must prove in USA that
    the issue has a direct effect to you. That doesn’t mean the issue itself is without merit.
    (as I understand)

  30. avatar
    JoZeppy September 18, 2012 at 2:18 pm #

    foreigner: > but the Supreme Court has never directly addressed the question of a specific
    > presidential or vice-presidential candidate’s eligibility as a natural-born citizen.

    You say that like a Supreme Court opinion is necessary for there to be a conclusive answer. The Supreme Court only hears 70 to 80 caes per term. Pretty much the only time the court will grant cert is if there are conclicting opinions among the lower courts, or a majority of the justices believe there is a decent chance the lower court will be reversed. According to the birther scorecard, the question has been kicked up to the Supreme Court 22 times (including cert petitions, and remands). Sure, many of them have been standing decisions, but there have been many appeals that directly invovled the definition of NBC…and to anyone with even a passing knowledge of the Court, if the Court really wants to address a question, they’ll find a way. So why, when presented with 22 opportunities, has the Supreme Court of the United States not only never granted a birther case cert, but has never so much as asked for a respondant brief (a respondant who believes the cert pertition is completely without merit can waive filing a response brief…if so much as one Justice feels a response is necessary, he can require the respondant to file a brief…has never happened)? Quite simply, all the lower courts to address the question came to the same results: birthers’ arguments are wholly without merit. Additionally, by denying cert and recon of denials of cert, the Court is making a ruling…the Court is saying the lower courts got it right. So there you have it. By consistently denying cert, the Supreme Court of the US has spoken. So there’s your answer. The SCOTUS doesn’t feel the need to answer stupid questions.

  31. avatar
    Rickey September 18, 2012 at 2:35 pm #

    foreigner:
    so, only ~1/3 of the dismissing fees are paid
    Wouldn’t it be better to decide once and for ever
    instead of dismissing again and again …

    You have demonstrated time and again that you do not understand how our justice system works, so let me try to make it as simple for your as possible.

    Let’s say that I am driving my car and I am stopped at a stop sign. The driver of a car behind me fails to stop and slams into the rear of my car. The driver of that car is injured, and he decides to sue me despite the fact that I did nothing wrong.

    Now, he is perfectly within his rights to sue me, but that does not mean that he is automatically entitled to have a jury decide the case. He first has to make a prima facie case that I was negligent. Since he cannot do that, my response is to file a motion to dismiss the lawsuit.

    When the court grants my motion to dismiss, it is telling the plaintiff “NO!”

    The problem is that birthers do not take “NO!” for an answer. They have been told “NO!” more than 150 times, including several times by the Supreme Court, but the lawsuits continue to be filed. You can’t make rats go away by trying to reason with them.

  32. avatar
    Rickey September 18, 2012 at 2:46 pm #

    RuhRoh:
    Strunk was presented with a half million in legal bills back in May of this year, with only some of the defense attorneys submitting fees.

    I never did hear the outcome of that May sanctions hearing I attended.

    Strunk filed a Notice of Appeal in late May, so the case likely is going to be in limbo for a while.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/94592853/2012-05-23-STRUNK-Notice-of-Appeal-With-Attachments

  33. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 18, 2012 at 3:37 pm #

    The LLF sanctions order has been appealed:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/106160627/TN-2012-09-16-Appeal-LLF-Appeal-Statement-of-Parties-and-IssuesF

  34. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 18, 2012 at 5:30 pm #

    I may feel sorry for Orly, but remember I am paying to defend part of this lawsuits as a taxpayer. Is it right for me and my fellow citizens to pay the costs for her actions? If she is legally insane, then yes, but otherwise no.

    The Magic M: We all have felt this way, I guess. But at some point, you simply start to believe that she had it coming and deserves it.

  35. avatar
    misha September 18, 2012 at 5:38 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: If she is legally insane, then yes, but otherwise no.

    The breakdown is coming, believe me.

  36. avatar
    John Reilly September 18, 2012 at 5:38 pm #

    I agree with the negative comments addressed to Foreigner. If the Supreme Court took the case and declared President Obama eligible and rejected all alternate theories, the Birthers would not go away. Dr. Taitz would not go away. They would keep filing suits and objections. We’d hear how Justice Scalia was threatened.We’d hear about how they will all be strung up for treason. Birthers are simply not interested in the law or the truth.

  37. avatar
    Thrifty September 18, 2012 at 5:58 pm #

    Well… it’s like… if someone is severely deranged and carves up 5 people because he believe they are zombies out to eat his brain, I feel sorry for the victim, and the victim’s families but I also feel a bit sorry for the perpetrator who’s mind was so defective that he sincerely believed zombies were after him. Of course, he should still be stopped and placed in a position where he cannot be a danger to society.

    So while he had his imprisonment coming to him, it’s still sad that mental defects drove him to that point in the first place.

    The Magic M: We all have felt this way, I guess. But at some point, you simply start to believe that she had it coming and deserves it. She’s not the pitiful kind of crazy who fights the almighty windmills, she’s the one who sends stalkers after anyone who dares to tell her “no” and the one who thinks the world should work at her command.
    She’s not Don Quixote crazy, she’s Mussolini crazy.

  38. avatar
    Thrifty September 18, 2012 at 6:03 pm #

    I’m trying to imagine if there were a portal like in Being John Malkovich, but instead of leading to John Malkovich, it led to Orly Taitz. The movie would move from comedy/drama to surreal horror.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Please don’t. I have a long-time fear of going crazy. It’s why I don’t drink.

  39. avatar
    Andy September 18, 2012 at 6:05 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I may feel sorry for Orly, but remember I am paying to defend part of this lawsuits as a taxpayer. Is it right for me and my fellow citizens to pay the costs for her actions? If she is legally insane, then yes, but otherwise no.

    If she is legally insane, then definitely no. If she is insane she shouldn’t be allowed to proceed without clearance from a judge in the first place.

  40. avatar
    G September 18, 2012 at 6:58 pm #

    Definitely surreal horror.

    Thrifty: The movie would move from comedy/drama to surreal horror.

    Agreed. I don’t have sympathy for her, just because she’s a functioning mental patient. Her ugly narcissism and persecution disorders make her dangerous and vile IMHO.

    Andy: If she is legally insane, then definitely no. If she is insane she shouldn’t be allowed to proceed without clearance from a judge in the first place.

  41. avatar
    john September 18, 2012 at 7:56 pm #

    “How quickly some people forget: in Georgia, it *was* decided. The Birthers got to put forth all their evidence and witnesses and legal arguments, and they LOST.”

    Boy, the was a close call for Obama. Irion, Hattfield and Orly screwed up that case royally. Because Obama didn’t show up, they could brought forward say Herb Titus to testify as expert witness on meaning of NBC. Given Titus’s credentials, he would have had no trouble being entered into the record as an expert witness.

    The judge could easily rendered a decision that Obama was NOT an NBC based on “Unrefuted expert witness testimony.”

    Unfortunately, neither parties brought an expert witness on NBC and Obama dodged a close bullet. It was a royal screw up.

  42. avatar
    john September 18, 2012 at 8:07 pm #

    Further, Irion, Hattfield and Orly didn’t use Obama’s lack of attendance to their advantage. The judge said in his decision he was very pursauded by the Ankeny decision in IN. If this is true, the it is reasonable to argue that Obama, had he shown up, would have argued this case vigorously. For that reason, Orly and company should made forward the argument that Ankeny decision should not be considered because it would be giving Obama the benefit of a best defense. Since Obama did not show to argue such a pursuasive case, it would not be fair for the court to argue that best case for him. In that argument, the judge would reject Ankeny rely on what was in the record.

  43. avatar
    H September 18, 2012 at 8:18 pm #

    There’s nothing explaining conspiracies here!

    It’s just a bunch of dry details about legal proceedings.

    blah blah blah

  44. avatar
    Keith September 18, 2012 at 8:44 pm #

    Thrifty:
    I’m trying to imagine if there were a portal like in Being John Malkovich, but instead of leading to John Malkovich, it led to Orly Taitz.The movie would move from comedy/drama to surreal horror.

    Oh, jeeze! I love Being John Malkovich! At least I used to.

    Now I’m never going to see that film again without thinking of this horrible, perverted, alternate universe version.

    What the hell is your psychological problem that causes you to come up with such debauched grotesquenesses?

    My Brain! IT HURTS! MAKE IT STOP!

  45. avatar
    Thrifty September 18, 2012 at 8:48 pm #

    On second thought, maybe a portal into Orly’s brain would be kinda like that part in Nightmare on Elm Street 6 where the heroine goes into Freddy Krueger’s brain. Only more unpleasant.

  46. avatar
    Keith September 18, 2012 at 8:55 pm #

    Thrifty:
    On second thought, maybe a portal into Orly’s brain would be kinda like that part in Nightmare on Elm Street 6 where the heroine goes into Freddy Krueger’s brain.Only more unpleasant.

    OK. I’m not much of a Freddy Krueger fan.

    But I do like this Freddy

  47. avatar
    misha September 18, 2012 at 9:05 pm #

    john: The judge could easily rendered a decision that Obama was NOT an NBC based on “Unrefuted expert witness testimony.”

    Svetlana Auerbach Orly Taitz was a streetwalker in Moldova and Romania.

  48. avatar
    Andy September 18, 2012 at 9:17 pm #

    john:
    “How quickly some people forget: in Georgia, it *was* decided. The Birthers got to put forth all their evidence and witnesses and legal arguments, and they LOST.”

    Boy, the was a close call for Obama.Irion, Hattfield and Orly screwed up that case royally.Because Obama didn’t show up, they could brought forward say Herb Titus to testify as expert witness on meaning of NBC.Given Titus’s credentials, he would have had no trouble being entered into the record as an expert witness.

    The judge could easily rendered a decision that Obama was NOT an NBC based on “Unrefuted expert witness testimony.”

    Unfortunately, neither parties brought an expert witness on NBC and Obama dodged a close bullet.It was a royal screw up.

    Or, you know, the court would have just looked at Wong Kim Ark, and known that Herb Titus was full of shit.

  49. avatar
    Stanislaw September 18, 2012 at 9:36 pm #

    john:
    Further, Irion, Hattfield and Orly didn’t use Obama’s lack of attendance to their advantage.The judge said in his decision he was very pursauded by the Ankeny decision in IN.If this is true, the it is reasonable to argue that Obama, had he shown up, would have argued this case vigorously.For that reason, Orly and company should made forward the argument that Ankeny decision should not be considered because it would be giving Obama the benefit of a best defense.Since Obama did not show to argue such a pursuasive case, it would not be fair for the court to argue that best case for him.In that argument, the judge would reject Ankeny rely on what was in the record.

    This is literally too stupid to make fun of. I’m calling Poe’s Law on this one. There’s no way “john” can be serious.

  50. avatar
    misha September 18, 2012 at 9:53 pm #

    H: There’s nothing explaining conspiracies here!

    Explain where Mitt Romney buried the girl he strangled to death in 1987.

  51. avatar
    Rickey September 18, 2012 at 9:54 pm #

    john:
    Further, Irion, Hattfield and Orly didn’t use Obama’s lack of attendance to their advantage.The judge said in his decision he was very pursauded by the Ankeny decision in IN.If this is true, the it is reasonable to argue that Obama, had he shown up, would have argued this case vigorously.For that reason, Orly and company should made forward the argument that Ankeny decision should not be considered because it would be giving Obama the benefit of a best defense.Since Obama did not show to argue such a pursuasive case, it would not be fair for the court to argue that best case for him.In that argument, the judge would reject Ankeny rely on what was in the record.

    If anyone can translate John’s ramblings into English, I would appreciate it.

  52. avatar
    misha September 18, 2012 at 10:11 pm #

    Rickey: If anyone can translate John’s ramblings into English, I would appreciate it.

    Urtherfay, Irionway, Attfieldhay andway Orlyway idnday’tay useway Obamaway’say acklay ofway attendanceway otay eirthay advantageway.Ethay udgejay aidsay inway ishay ecisionday ehay asway eryvay ursaudedpay ybay ethay Ankenyway ecisionday inway INWAY.Ifway isthay isway uetray, ethay itway isway easonableray otay argueway atthay Obamaway, adhay ehay ownshay upway, ouldwayavehay arguedway isthay asecay igorouslyvay.Orfay atthay easonray, Orlyway andway ompanycay ouldshay ademay orwardfay ethay argumentway atthay Ankenyway ecisionday ouldshay otnay
    ebay onsideredcay ecausebay itway ouldway ebay ivinggay Obamaway ethay enefitbay ofway away estbay efenseday.Incesay Obamaway idday otnay owshay otay argueway uchsay away ursuasivepay asecay, itway ouldway otnay ebay airfay orfay ethay ourtcay otay argueway atthay estbay asecay orfay imhay.Inway atthay argumentway, ethay udgejay ouldway ejectray Ankenyway elyray onway atwhay asway inway ethay ecordray.

  53. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 18, 2012 at 11:04 pm #

    Well the conspiracy stuff is sort of old now. But you can find stuff here:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/debunk

    H: It’s just a bunch of dry details about legal proceedings.

  54. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 18, 2012 at 11:09 pm #

    It doesn’t work that way. Experts testify giving their opinions on evidence, not on the law. Titus would have had no relevance. The judge decides the law.

    john: “How quickly some people forget: in Georgia, it *was* decided. The Birthers got to put forth all their evidence and witnesses and legal arguments, and they LOST.”

    Boy, the was a close call for Obama. Irion, Hattfield and Orly screwed up that case royally. Because Obama didn’t show up, they could brought forward say Herb Titus to testify as expert witness on meaning of NBC. Given Titus’s credentials, he would have had no trouble being entered into the record as an expert witness.

    The judge could easily rendered a decision that Obama was NOT an NBC based on “Unrefuted expert witness testimony.”

    Unfortunately, neither parties brought an expert witness on NBC and Obama dodged a close bullet. It was a royal screw up.

  55. avatar
    Language September 18, 2012 at 11:12 pm #

    Because that is how judges talk.

    Why do Germans say “nein” when they mean “no” ?

    Why do the Spanish say “de nada” when they mean “you’re welcome”?

    Why do the English say “lift” when they mean “elevator”?

    foreigner:
    why do they say “dismissed”, when they mean “no” ?

  56. avatar
    brygenon September 18, 2012 at 11:32 pm #

    john: Boy, the was a close call for Obama. Irion, Hattfield and Orly screwed up that case royally.

    You’d think beating an empty table would be easy. Alas, not for team-birther. They’ve gotten no stronger since.

    We’ll never know how many budding birthers found and accepted competent counsel. We don’t hear about those.

  57. avatar
    brygenon September 18, 2012 at 11:35 pm #

    DaveH: Wouldn’t it be better to decide once and for ever
    instead of dismissing again and again

    Dismissed is what you get when you try to litigate what was already decided once and forever.

  58. avatar
    misha September 18, 2012 at 11:37 pm #

    Language: Why do the English say “lift” when they mean “elevator”?

    Why do the English say “boot” when they mean “trunk”?

    Why do the English say “bonnet” when they mean “hood”?

    Why do the English say “windscreen” when they mean “windshield”?

    Why do the English say “loo” when they mean “bathroom”?

    Why does the sun rise in the east?

  59. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG September 18, 2012 at 11:42 pm #

    You left one out!
    Why does Samuel L Jackson continue to threaten to shoot me, when all I asked him was “What?”

  60. avatar
    misha September 19, 2012 at 12:10 am #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG:Why does Samuel L Jackson continue to threaten to shoot me, when all I asked him was “What?”

    I’d tell you, but then I’d have to kill you.

  61. avatar
    foreigner September 19, 2012 at 12:30 am #

    The controversy clearly exists : books,talkshows,articles,webpages,
    lawsuits,fees,internet pages,… prove it.
    A former Supreme Court decision would have clarified and put to rest this,
    ongoing for >200 years now and the problem is increasing with Mexican immigration.
    Dismissions only delay. What’s the estimated yearly “cost” of this uncertainety
    and what costs a Supreme Court decision ?

  62. avatar
    Sudoku September 19, 2012 at 12:38 am #

    The only “controversy” that exists is the same as that for whether the earth is flat or evolution. Sure, their are those who just don’t believe it, but that does not make it a controversy. The same people who don’t believe Obama is eligible now, will not believe it is the Supreme Court says so. They will just say someone got to them, or they chickened out or sold out.

    foreigner:
    The controversy clearly exists : books,talkshows,articles,webpages,
    lawsuits,fees,internet pages,…prove it.
    A former Supreme Court decision would have clarified and put to rest this,
    ongoing for >200 years now and the problem is increasing with Mexican immigration.
    Dismissions only delay. What’s the estimated yearly “cost” of this uncertainety
    and what costs a Supreme Court decision ?

  63. avatar
    G September 19, 2012 at 12:43 am #

    Well said!!! I completely agree and 100% demonstrated by the existing pattern of their behavior over these 4 years. Foreigner should know better by now. No excuse for his Concern Troll act anymore…

    Sudoku:
    The only “controversy” that exists is the same as that for whether the earth is flat or evolution. Sure, their are those who just don’t believe it, but that does not make it a controversy.The same people who don’t believe Obama is eligible now, will not believe it is the Supreme Court says so.They will just say someone got to them, or they chickened out or sold out.

  64. avatar
    Rickey September 19, 2012 at 12:49 am #

    foreigner:
    The controversy clearly exists : books,talkshows,articles,webpages,
    lawsuits,fees,internet pages,…prove it.
    A former Supreme Court decision would have clarified and put to rest this,
    ongoing for >200 years now and the problem is increasing with Mexican immigration.
    Dismissions only delay. What’s the estimated yearly “cost” of this uncertainety
    and what costs a Supreme Court decision ?

    I’m never quite sure if you are deliberately obtuse or if you are an idiot. Either way, your act has grown tiresome.

  65. avatar
    G September 19, 2012 at 12:50 am #

    Somehow, our country continues to run just fine…not that our internal affairs are any real concern of yours.

    How America addresses our immigration issues is something that we Americans have a say in, not some foreigner from Germany. You deal with your own nation’s laws. We’ll live by ours, thank you. We after all, have always been a nation of immigrants. We just need to figure out how to fix a broken system of properly managing that.

    But our Presidential election system works just fine and will continue to do so, despite ficticious “controversies” thrown about by desperate and bitter losers.

    Other than a problem of frivolous and vexatious litigants wasting taxpayer’s money and court’s time, which is a matter of tort reform considerations only, there is ZERO “cost” of any real “uncertainty”, as you deem it. Every election will have winners and losers. The losers need to get over it and deal with it, until the next election cycle. Nothing more.

    foreigner: ongoing for >200 years now and the problem is increasing with Mexican immigration.
    Dismissions only delay. What’s the estimated yearly “cost” of this uncertainety
    and what costs a Supreme Court decision ?

  66. avatar
    MattR September 19, 2012 at 1:14 am #

    Sudoku:
    The only “controversy” that exists is the same as that for whether the earth is flat or evolution.Sure, their are those who just don’t believe it, but that does not make it a controversy.The same people who don’t believe Obama is eligible now, will not believe it is the Supreme Court says so.They will just say someone got to them, or they chickened out or sold out.

    I’d add the sovereign citizen movement as an example. They have a twisted interpretation of law and the Constitution that ignores all the case law that contradicts their views and which has been repeatedly ruled against in state and federal courts but, as far as I know, the Supreme Court has never taken an explicit stand. Yet nobody thinks there is actually a controversy about whether individuals can renounce their federal citizenship and become a citizen of the state who does not have to pay and federal, state or local taxes and is subject to common law rather than federal or state laws.

  67. avatar
    foreigner September 19, 2012 at 1:19 am #

    sudoku, come on. See the history of this very website.
    Scholarly articles were written about it and quoted
    and discussed. You won’t find that with flat-earth-theory.
    How often have I heard this “nothing would convince
    birthers anyway”, still everyone jumps on them when
    they appear, still we “debunk” them, still the polls
    clearly show the fluctuations.

  68. avatar
    foreigner September 19, 2012 at 1:21 am #

    sometimes I wonder whether lawyers and judges are “cultivating” a judical system
    of complexity and controversy and delayed/unclear decisions.
    knowingly or unknowingly,directly or indirectly
    Since that’s what they make their living from.
    Is there a word for this phenomenon, how can I find about it with google

  69. avatar
    foreigner September 19, 2012 at 1:46 am #

    show us the wikipedia article about flat-earth-theory, so we can compare

  70. avatar
    foreigner September 19, 2012 at 1:47 am #

    US – “standing” rule:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_(law)

  71. avatar
    Fazil Iskander September 19, 2012 at 3:05 am #

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

    If you want to compare birtherism with the belief in a flat earth, you should really compare our time with pre-copernican times when the theory of a round Earth was new.

    In fact, what’s most interesting about flat-earthism is the persistent idea behind its modern day defense: the idea that, because a small number still believe in something (ie. a flat earth), it is necessary to debunk it to the complete satisfaction of everyone before the idea of a flat earth is truly disproved. But science has never needed complete accord in order to go forward. There have been flat-earthers since Copernicus, but science simply ignores them because their idea (that the earth is flat) is not workable, does not fit the physical model of the universe on which our current astronomical ideas are based. Astronomy, if it were based on the idea of flat planets, would contradict the Physics the vast majority of physicists and astronomers work with and navigate the universe with.

    So it is with birtherism and the courts. It’s unlikely that there will ever be a time when birtherism is entirely refuted. There will always be someone for whom the two parent idea of Natural Born Citizenship is “right”. The law we practice will not be based on this idea, however, so its irrelevance will become more and more clear to the general population while an eccentric minority will go on about the lack of proof that Barack Husein Obama is/was a NBC.

    Web-sites like this one don’t exist in order to entirely suppress birtherism. They exist in order to chart the strange progress of an idea (birtherism) and to make sure that the ideas behind birtherism aren’t left uncontested or unrefuted for the layman. The law itself long ago decided that the two parent theory of NBC is irrelevant. Civil and constitutional law simply doesn’t accept the argument’s merit, even though birthers do and will continue to for the future.

    foreigner:
    show us the wikipedia article about flat-earth-theory, so we can compare

  72. avatar
    The Magic M September 19, 2012 at 4:34 am #

    foreigner: See the history of this very website.
    Scholarly articles were written about it and quoted
    and discussed. You won’t find that with flat-earth-theory.

    So we are back to the old birther argument “if birtherism was absurd, nobody would bother debunking it”? And of course if there was no debunking, you would say “if birtherism was wrong, why is nobody debunking it?”. Don’t play Catch-22 with me, dude.

    foreigner: sometimes I wonder whether lawyers and judges are “cultivating” a judical system
    of complexity and controversy and delayed/unclear decisions.
    knowingly or unknowingly,directly or indirectly
    Since that’s what they make their living from.

    The vast majority of cases does not revolve around “controversial” (by whatever standards) legal questions but factual ones – did Google really violate Oracle’s patents, did you really pay me the $1,000 you owe me, was it really a contract when I said “yeah I’ll buy this bugger” etc.
    Those will never die, no matter how “clearly” the courts rule on questions of law.

    So that’s just another conspiracy theory with no basis in reality.

    foreigner: How often have I heard this “nothing would convince
    birthers anyway”, still everyone jumps on them when
    they appear, still we “debunk” them, still the polls
    clearly show the fluctuations.

    Because some misconceptions are more complex and therefore more prone to lure people in than others.

    The “ID vs. evolution” thingy, trutherism, birtherism – those thrive because they feed on preconceived notions (that my faith cannot be wrong, that government is inherently evil, that politicians lie).
    The more outlandish theories (the moon landing hoax, flat Earth, hollow Earth etc.) don’t because they have no such notions to build on, *and* because most of them are contrary to common sense even for “simple” people.
    If we lived inside Hollow Earth, why does a ship go *down* towards the horizon and not up? Simple.
    But to believe that a couple hundred people in different positions of government orchestrated some kind of dark plan involving forged documents? Entirely credible to many.

    But that doesn’t make birtherism one iota more credible. Because birtherism isn’t just a theory in the general sense, it claims to be a theory in the scientific sense – with proof-positive about BC here and two citizens there. But since all this “proof” is really bunk, it’s no better than Hollow Earth, it’s just harder to see it, that’s why people fall for it (cf. swiftboating). And that’s why it needs more solid debunking, and that’s why it tends to get washed back up to the surface every now and then. (Quite similar to the ever-popular “the Jews are behind it” that has popped up throughout history whenever a scapegoat was needed.)

  73. avatar
    Northland10 September 19, 2012 at 7:37 am #

    Fazil Iskander: Web-sites like this one don’t exist in order to entirely suppress birtherism. They exist in order to chart the strange progress of an idea (birtherism) and to make sure that the ideas behind birtherism aren’t left uncontested or unrefuted for the layman.

    Well said.

    This comment and the Doc’s statement, “fishing for gold coins in a bucket of mud,” reminds me of the sludge test we had to do in 8th grade chemistry. This and other debunker sites will often take the beaker of sludge (also known as a legal filing from a birther) and break it down into its component parts only to see that the component parts have no basis in law or history.

  74. avatar
    foreigner September 19, 2012 at 8:58 am #

    Fazil,Keith,
    no more scientific articles about hollow Earth since decades/centuries
    not >20% of US-citizens believe in it etc.
    ————————————————-
    MagicM,
    the scholarly articles were written _before_ birtherism emerged
    the majority of cases are resolved outside the Courts, but according to the
    guidelines that the Courts give
    And if it’s harder debunked, IMO that _does_ make it more credible
    ——————————————————
    Northland10,
    but then we have the heated exchange about pencil codes and graphic “experts” with Corsi and such
    ——————————————————

  75. avatar
    G September 19, 2012 at 9:43 am #

    Foreigner –

    What are you trying to argue now? Of course Flat Earthers have become much more fringe and stale. Their pathetic movement has been whimpering along for over 400 years now. However, when it began, it had a large percentage of adherents for many, many decades.

    Corsi and his ilk are intentional propagandists. He makes up lies to push his agenda. Right now the big agenda of the con artists who make myths about Obama is because they hate him and don’t want to see him in office or get re-elected. So they make up lies and spread false rumors to try to damage him in the public’s eye. That was what the “Swift Boat” campaign in 2004 was all about. So of course you see these con artists coming up with and trying to push new bogus arguments desperately right now, because there are only a few months left until re-election. Birtherism is nothing more than an intentional scam, designed to manipulate gullible people who are uncomfortable with the reality of Obama’s presidency.

    foreigner:
    Fazil,Keith,
    no more scientific articles about hollow Earth since decades/centuries
    not >20% of US-citizens believe in itetc.
    ————————————————-
    MagicM,
    the scholarly articles were written _before_ birtherism emerged
    the majority of cases are resolved outside the Courts, but according to the
    guidelines that the Courts give
    And if it’s harder debunked, IMO that _does_ make it more credible
    ——————————————————
    Northland10,
    but then we have the heated exchange about pencil codes and graphic “experts” with Corsi and such
    ——————————————————

  76. avatar
    misha September 19, 2012 at 9:49 am #

    foreigner: how can I find about it with google

    This is better: run around your block three times, click your heels and say, “I wish I was in Kansas.”

  77. avatar
    foreigner September 19, 2012 at 10:41 am #

    so, you mean birtherism now is like flat-earth-theory before Kopernikus ?
    Then I misunderstood.
    Is it really an intentional scam are are they just more willing to grasp
    the ideas, without much inspection, but not knowing they are wrong either ?

  78. avatar
    G September 19, 2012 at 10:49 am #

    After Galileo’s findings were accepted would be a better analogy, but yes.

    foreigner:
    so, you mean birtherism now is like flat-earth-theory before Kopernikus ?
    Then I misunderstood.

    Yes, that is exactly what it is. You must understand that the folks that fall for it are not looking for truth. They simply are looking to grab onto any excuse they can use to pretend that he’s not really the President, because they cannot accept him emotionally. Their thinking is mostly emotional and fear based – reason and truth are not what they care about at all. They just want to hear things that “feel good” to them.

    foreigner:
    Is it really an intentional scam are are they just more willing to grasp
    the ideas, without much inspection, but not knowing they are wrong either ?

  79. avatar
    Daniel September 19, 2012 at 10:49 am #

    foreigner:
    sometimes I wonder whether lawyers and judges are “cultivating” a judical system
    of complexity and controversy and delayed/unclear decisions.
    knowingly or unknowingly,directly or indirectly
    Since that’s what they make their living from.
    Is there a word for this phenomenon, how can I find about it with google

    Do you also wonder how they made those moon landing films look so real?

  80. avatar
    Rickey September 19, 2012 at 1:14 pm #

    foreigner:
    still the polls clearly show the fluctuations.

    48% of Americans believe in ghosts, and 22% claim that they have actually seen or felt the presence of a ghost. That doesn’t make the scientific question of the existence of ghosts a controversy.

    Only 49% of Americans know that President Obama is a Christian. Ignorance (of which there is more than enough to go around) does not make a controversy.

  81. avatar
    BillTheCat September 19, 2012 at 2:28 pm #

    Gotta love this – Foreigner is actually making the argument that if enough people believe a lie, and enough made-up “proof” of that lie is collected into a big enough pile – then it could be true and it is now a “controversy” worth investigating. Goebbels would be so proud!

  82. avatar
    Rickey September 19, 2012 at 2:46 pm #

    foreigner:
    .
    A former Supreme Court decision would have clarified and put to rest this,

    Recently the Supreme Court ruled that “ObamaCare” is constitutional. So what did Orly Taitz do afterwards? She filed a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of ObamaCare.

    What does that tell you?

  83. avatar
    G September 19, 2012 at 2:48 pm #

    Indeed!

    There do seem to be delusional people out there that really believe that perception can trump actual physical reality…

    …part of a magical thinking mindset.

    BillTheCat:
    Gotta love this – Foreigner is actually making the argument that if enough people believe a lie, and enough made-up “proof” of that lie is collected into a big enough pile – then it could be true and it is now a “controversy” worth investigating. Goebbels would be so proud!

  84. avatar
    misha September 19, 2012 at 4:01 pm #

    BillTheCat: Foreigner is actually making the argument that if enough people believe a lie, and enough made-up “proof” of that lie is collected into a big enough pile – then it could be true and it is now a “controversy” worth investigating. Goebbels would be so proud!

    Of course. He’s writing from Germany. What do you expect?

  85. avatar
    chancery September 19, 2012 at 9:55 pm #

    Fazil Iskander:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

    If you want to compare birtherism with the belief in a flat earth, you should really compare our time with pre-copernican times when the theory of a round Earth was new.
    * * * There have been flat-earthers since Copernicus ***.

    Flat Eartherism is an essentially modern phenomenon, beginning in the 19th century. Nobody (of any significance) objected to the Copernican system because of a belief in a flat earth. That ship had sailed
    over
    the
    horizon
    many centuries earlier.

  86. avatar
    Rickey September 19, 2012 at 10:20 pm #

    chancery: Flat Eartherism is an essentially modern phenomenon, beginning in the 19th century. Nobody (of any significance) objected to the Copernican system because of a belief in a flat earth. That ship had sailed
    over
    the
    horizon
    many centuries earlier.

    There is a persistent myth that it was believed that the earth was flat when Columbus set sail. In fact, even in the late 15th century most educated people knew that the earth is not flat. Columbus never worried about sailing over the edge.

  87. avatar
    Fazil Iskander September 19, 2012 at 10:51 pm #

    I’m really not sure what your point is, here. The fact that “no one of significance” believed in a flat earth post-Copernicus is true but my point was that there were and continued to be believers in a flat earth for centuries after the physical sciences rejected the idea, just as there will no doubt be believers in a two-parent requirement for natural born citizenship, though the courts have, explicitly, rejected any constitutional basis for the two-parent model.

    Foreigner was trying to deride this website’s continuing arguments against birtherism on the grounds that attacking a position is a form of admitting that the position has merit. (Why attack, otherwise? is Foreigner’s implicit question.) but although one naturally attacks, say, flat-eartherism, the attack is in a no way a admission of flat-eartherism’s merit. Also, hiding behind Foreigner’s assumption is the idea that a point is proved only when everyone agrees that it is proved. This is, obviously, not true. It hides a false notion of “certainty”. In science, for instance, “certainty” does not mean that every scientist believes this or that theory or idea. Universal accord is virtually impossible. “Certainty” is not much more than an admission that, for a majority of the practitioners of a science, arguments about theory x are pointless, in that theory x is useable within the parameters of that science. For instance, it is possible to argue that the earth, not the sun, is the center of our universe. Why not? Space being infinite, if it is infinite, every single point must, logically, be central. But for Astro-physicists, it’s customary to work with the sun as central to ourvsolar system. Arguments for the earth’s centrality are beside the point.

    In the same way, the fact that Mario Apuzzo can argue about two citizen parents being necessary for natural born citizenship does not mean that his arguments have any more weight in the courts than arguments about the earth’s centrality in our solar system have with Astro-physicists.

    (my examples aren’t the best, but I hope my argument is clear …)

    chancery: Flat Eartherism is an essentially modern phenomenon, beginning in the 19th century. Nobody (of any significance) objected to the Copernican system because of a belief in a flat earth. That ship had sailed
    over
    the
    horizon
    many centuries earlier.

  88. avatar
    John Potter September 20, 2012 at 1:48 am #

    Get that foreigner some philosophy. Poor chap is lost in The Cave!

    Got to get back to teaching thinking, and stop simply filling heads with pre-approved thoughts. Kids these days.

  89. avatar
    The Magic M September 20, 2012 at 4:23 am #

    foreigner: And if it’s harder debunked, IMO that _does_ make it more credible

    So IYO it’s “more credible” that quantum theory is bogus because it’s harder to debunk anti-quantum-theory arguments than to debunk Hollow Earth arguments?
    It’s “more credible” that *all* scientists in the world are part of a conspiracy?

    foreigner: not >20% of US-citizens believe in it

    More than 20% believe evolution theory is bogus (in Germany as well, BTW, according to a chart I saw the other day). Does that mean it’s “more credible” that all scientists are conspiring against (Judeo-Christian) religion? Does that mean it’s “more credible” that some book of fiction is “the word of God” any more than “Lord of the Rings” describes actual history?

  90. avatar
    bovril September 20, 2012 at 5:46 am #

    So,

    Based on “foreigners” Weltanschauung if enough people believe a non existent thing to be true then the quantum state of the universe in that locale will change to make it so……

    Based on that thesis (not a theory) all victims of mass starvation or natural disasters can change their ground state by wishing it away if more than a certain small critical mass wish really, really, really hard.

    Hel, we can now wish away global warning, the laws of economics and gravity, cure all disease anf generally move on to paradise.

    Same magical thinking that gave us trickle down economics, 47% of all US citizens are squalid suckers on the gubmint teat and WND’s in Iraq.

  91. avatar
    The Magic M September 20, 2012 at 6:36 am #

    bovril: WND’s in Iraq

    Wishful thinking typo? 😉

  92. avatar
    Northland10 September 20, 2012 at 7:18 am #

    Fazil Iskander: Foreigner was trying to deride this website’s continuing arguments against birtherism on the grounds that attacking a position is a form of admitting that the position has merit.

    He misses the fact that flat-earthers are not attempting to remove a legitimately elected President or prevent him from running again. This site and others exist, in part, to ensure that theirs is not the only voice heard and to remind those that are listening what the laws, and Constitution of the United States really state. Part of its existence is to keep the birthers from leading people astray. If the flat-earthers attempted to cause issues in our country and laws, then sites debunking their nonsense would likely appear.

    The Sovereign Citizen movement is full of positions that are bunk (liens, made up bonds, etc.). However, many know that, in difficult economic times, some people may be lead astray by the SovCits promise of “redemption.” This is how the SovCits ideological predecessor, the Posse Comitatus, was able to grow, building on the distraught mid-western farmers losing their land in the 70s. Even though their positions have no merit, groups exist to debunk and keep and eye on them for they are not only an issues of clogging up the courts with bogus financial claims, they are a real proven threat of violence.

    It should be noted, there are some birthers who hold some SovCit views. As such, there is a need to keep a constant light shown on their dark places, less they move on to more radical resolutions and take the unknowing with them.

  93. avatar
    GGG September 20, 2012 at 7:55 am #

    He is an embarrassment to Germans. I come from German immigrants. I have visited Germany, have German friends. While I agree with your disdain of foreigner, I kind of wish you would not automatically go for the trite stereotype about Germans at large. I understand, but….

    misha: Of course. He’s writing from Germany. What do you expect?

  94. avatar
    misha September 20, 2012 at 7:57 am #

    GGG: I understand, but….

    I apologize.

  95. avatar
    Paper September 20, 2012 at 8:02 am #

    Well said, Northland.

    In case anyone is wondering, I suggest traveling around the world. I have circumnavigated the planet, and so yes I don’t need the Supreme Court on this issue.

    Northland10: He misses the fact that flat-earthers are not attempting to remove a legitimately elected President or prevent him from running again.

  96. avatar
    Fazil Iskander September 20, 2012 at 8:21 am #

    Great post. I do wonder, though, about the danger of “birtherism”. It may be just me, but I can’t really think of the movement as being as toxic as Posse Commitatus. It really isn’t a social movement. More of an ad hoc, amateur legal pseudo-collective. Birthers believe a number of sometimes contradictory things. Orly Taitz’s rhetoric is violent, but it’s clear from her inability to draw anything like a significant crowd, that she’s not taken all that seriously. The worst you can imagine happening is that the small number of those who believe some form of birtherism might influence a close election. But Mittens seems intent on widening the gap between himself and Obama. He himself is making birtherism irrelevant.

    Northland10: He misses the fact that flat-earthers are not attempting to remove a legitimately elected President or prevent him from running again.This site and others exist, in part, to ensure that theirs is not the only voice heard and to remind those that are listening what the laws, and Constitution of the United States really state.Part of its existence is to keep the birthers from leading people astray.If the flat-earthers attempted to cause issues in our country and laws, then sites debunking their nonsense would likely appear.

    The Sovereign Citizen movement is full of positions that are bunk (liens, made up bonds, etc.).However, many know that, in difficult economic times, some people may be lead astray by the SovCits promise of “redemption.”This is how the SovCits ideological predecessor, the Posse Comitatus, was able to grow, building on the distraught mid-westernfarmers losing their land in the 70s.Even though their positions have no merit, groups exist to debunk and keep and eye on them for they are not only an issues of clogging up the courts with bogus financial claims, they are a real proven threat of violence.

    It should be noted, there are some birthers who hold some SovCit views.As such, there is a need to keep a constant light shown on their dark places, less they move on to more radical resolutions and take the unknowing with them.

  97. avatar
    Paper September 20, 2012 at 8:23 am #

    Hey, stop with the spoilers for the new season of The Walking Dead! It’s getting so I can’t even waste time on a blog about birther conspiracies without getting spoiled about the more important matters in life, such as television show developments.

    Thrifty:
    Well… it’s like… if someone is severely deranged and carves up 5 people because he believe they are zombies out to eat his brain, I feel sorry for the victim, and the victim’s families but I also feel a bit sorry for the perpetrator who’s mind was so defective that he sincerely believed zombies were after him.Of course, he should still be stopped and placed in a position where he cannot be a danger to society.

  98. avatar
    Language September 20, 2012 at 8:29 am #

    Especially when the sun doesn’t *rise.*

    Why isn’t foreigner addressing that uncertainty of language?

    misha:
    Why does the sun rise in the east?

  99. avatar
    ObiWanCannoli September 20, 2012 at 8:42 am #

    If president Obama is reelected and when the congress affirms his election, what else the birthers can possibly do? IIRR, Orly claimed in a youtube video in 2009 that she will remove Obama from office within 30 days because a judge ordered him to show up to the court with his documents. I am still waiting. I think courts are getting tired of the sideshows. There will be more sanctions and awards. Orly will not stop until she is send to jail and sanctioned heavily.

  100. avatar
    G September 20, 2012 at 9:06 am #

    Yes, the SovCit claptrap is certainly alive within the halls of Birtherism. You see it come out in the peculiar language descriptions that certain Birthers use to describe things.

    Funny you should mention Birther SovCits – one of their most prominent members, TimTurner, the self-proclaimed “President” of the sovereign citizen group “Republic for the united States of America,” just got arrested for paper terrorism and various financial fraud schemes.

    Patrick over at BadFiction has the best compiled coverage of it I’ve seen so far:

    http://badfiction.typepad.com/badfiction/2012/09/dispatches-from-birtherstan-18-19-september-2012.html

    He is facing quite the legal penalty for his SovCit crimes:

    If convicted, Turner faces a maximum of 164 years in federal prison, a maximum fine of $2,350,000 and mandatory restitution.”

    Tim Turner was quite the SovCit Birther figure in the earlier years of Birtherism, providing vivid fantasy tales of plots to overthrow Obama and that his personal “shadow government” was really running this country…

    Northland10: It should be noted, there are some birthers who hold some SovCit views. As such, there is a need to keep a constant light shown on their dark places, less they move on to more radical resolutions and take the unknowing with them.

  101. avatar
    G September 20, 2012 at 9:23 am #

    I strongly disagree with you here and have nearly an opposite view of Birtherism’s danger.

    First of all, I have always felt the most significant threat of Birtherism and folks like Orly is to incite some “lone wolf” or small group to commit acts of violence or target individuals for attempted assassination.

    There are a lot of dark undercurrents that bubble to the surface in Birther conversations, which makes me view them as retaining the potential for inciting dangerous and violent criminals, even if the vast majority of them are just geriatric keyboard commandos themselves.

    To me, the least likely threat of Birtherism these days is that it would be a factor impacting this election. I realize that is actually one of the main reasons and intent for Birtherism and its propaganda machine in the first place. However, their actions and results over the past four years have left me ever-so increasingly convinced that they’ve failed so badly and left such an indelible public stench, that they’ve only served to innoculate the non ODS-suffering portion of the public from Birtherism and that ironically, the only influence they still retain outside of their meager little insular bubbles, is to offend the sensibilities of the rest of the populace, which can actually strengthen the dedication and resolve of Obama leaning supporters. But beyond that, in terms of the vote calculus, the pool of Birthers are people who were never voting for Obama regardless, so they are probably the most inconsequential demographic there is , towards impacting they dynamics of voting results.

    Fazil Iskander: Great post. I do wonder, though, about the danger of “birtherism”. It may be just me, but I can’t really think of the movement as being as toxic as Posse Commitatus. It really isn’t a social movement. More of an ad hoc, amateur legal pseudo-collective. Birthers believe a number of sometimes contradictory things. Orly Taitz’s rhetoric is violent, but it’s clear from her inability to draw anything like a significant crowd, that she’s not taken all that seriously. The worst you can imagine happening is that the small number of those who believe some form of birtherism might influence a close election. But Mittens seems intent on widening the gap between himself and Obama. He himself is making birtherism irrelevant.

  102. avatar
    The Magic M September 20, 2012 at 9:41 am #

    misha: Of course. He’s writing from Germany. What do you expect?

    The vast majority in Germany is not like “foreigner”, so I take objection to that.

  103. avatar
    The Magic M September 20, 2012 at 9:43 am #

    G: First of all, I have always felt the most significant threat of Birtherism and folks like Orly is to incite some “lone wolf” or small group to commit acts of violence or target individuals for attempted assassination.

    Precisely. And I suppose many of the birther talking heads are secretly (or not so secretly) hoping for that to happen.

    Although I think that the core birther movement consists of people who wouldn’t get up from behind their keyboards if North Korean troops were at their door, some more violent types might be pushed over the edge by birtherism as the “final straw”.

  104. avatar
    G September 20, 2012 at 9:49 am #

    The Birthers have demonstrated that they are too insane as a movement, to learn from the lessons of their failures. Therefore, I fully anticipate that his re-election will be followed by yet another desperate round of crazed angry-letter writing campaigns and phone harrassment to Congress, coupled with more court filings to try to block every step of the process between the election and his re-inauguration.

    I expect these attempts to be swatted down and fail much more quickly and spectacularly then last cycle, as the Birthers have only succeeded in building such a strong case history against themselves and have reduced all official’s tolerance levels for entertaining this sore loser nonsense.

    I also expect the rhetoric to become more desperate and possibly dangerous for a period of time, once the election is over. Expect to see more angry demands for sedition, secession, “second amendment remedies” and various “end-times” prophecies of doom.

    But how long can that last? I look at the arc of the bitter PUMA movement from last cycle as a comparison. The timeframe between the election and inauguration was one of their most active periods of bitter online anger, fury and activity. That was enough to sustain activity by them for several more months past the inauguration, but they quickly began to dissipate and fade into dusty obscurity after that. I suspect we will see a similar timeline arc to birtherism happen here and unless they can flesh out and rev-up a new meme by then, there will be barely anything left to report on them, by next spring.

    ObiWanCannoli:
    If president Obama is reelected and when the congress affirms his election, what else the birthers can possibly do?IIRR, Orly claimed in a youtube video in 2009 that she will remove Obama from office within 30 days because a judge ordered him to show up to the court with his documents.I am still waiting.I think courts are getting tired of the sideshows.There will be more sanctions and awards.Orly will not stop until she is send to jail and sanctioned heavily.

  105. avatar
    G September 20, 2012 at 9:51 am #

    Yep. I agree 100% on both points.

    The Magic M: Precisely. And I suppose many of the birther talking heads are secretly (or not so secretly) hoping for that to happen.

    Although I think that the core birther movement consists of people who wouldn’t get up from behind their keyboards if North Korean troops were at their door, some more violent types might be pushed over the edge by birtherism as the “final straw”.

  106. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 20, 2012 at 9:59 am #

    If Obama is re-elected, I fully expect to see the “Where’s the birth certificate?” signs and bumper stickers replaced with “Impeach Obama.”

    ObiWanCannoli: If president Obama is reelected and when the congress affirms his election, what else the birthers can possibly do?

  107. avatar
    G September 20, 2012 at 10:06 am #

    I can see them going that route. Not that I see where they have any actual argument to make or succeed with it, but yeah, that will probably be their new 2013+ slogan and WND merchandising core effort.

    As there is also a strong undercurrent of anti-immigrant xenophobia in Birtherism, I can also see some spin-off attempts, trying to use the bogus arguments that Birthers created in order to push for anti-immigrant legislation.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    If Obama is re-elected, I fully expect to see the “Where’s the birth certificate?” signs and bumper stickers replaced with “Impeach Obama.”

  108. avatar
    Thrifty September 20, 2012 at 10:12 am #

    Paper terrorism? Is that like the time I went to that paper warehouse and played Edward Scissorhands on a loop for 48 hours straight?

    G: Funny you should mention Birther SovCits – one of their most prominent members, TimTurner, the self-proclaimed “President” of the sovereign citizen group “Republic for the united States of America,” just got arrested for paper terrorism and various financial fraud schemes.

  109. avatar
    John Potter September 20, 2012 at 10:24 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: If Obama is re-elected, I fully expect to see the “Where’s the birth certificate?” signs and bumper stickers replaced with “Impeach Obama.”

    …. on grounds of [ fill-in the blank with randomly-selected birfer meme(s) ]

    ‘Impeachers’, eh?

    There’s always a base level of mouthy support for violent overthrow of the federal gubbermint (always seems to want someone else to do the overthrowing….). They’ll get a boost.

    NPR played a clip yesterday about East Texas gun owners. Interviewed a judge who agreed that his friends who were buying 1000s of rounds at a time were being excessive … but then lapsed into recycled Clinton-era crazy about UN treaties, UN troops, confiscations, etc.,etc. He didn’t mention FEMA camps or black helicopters (I mean, come on, he isn’t crazy), but there was a priceless line: “This isn’t a black thing. It’s a liberal thing.”

    And I actually believe him on that one. The UN / gun control meme is levelled against all liberals by gun nuts.

  110. avatar
    G September 20, 2012 at 10:37 am #

    😉

    But seriously, for those unfamiliar with the term:

    Paper terrorism is a neologism to refer to the use of false liens, frivolous lawsuits, bogus letters of credit, and other legal documents lacking sound factual basis as a method of harassment, especially against government officials. These methods are popular among some anti-government groups and those associated with the redemption movement. Mark Pitcavage of the ADL states that these methods were pioneered by the Posse Comitatus. Some victims of paper terrorism have been forced to declare bankruptcy. An article by the Southern Poverty Law Center states that another tactic is filing reports with the Internal Revenue Service falsely accusing their political enemies of having unreported income. Such frivolous lawsuits also clog the court system making it more difficult to process other cases and including using challenges to the titles of property owned by government officials and others. Another method of paper terrorism is filing bankruptcy petitions against others in an effort to ruin their credit ratings.

    The ‘Republic of Texas’, a militia group claiming that Texas was legally independent, carried out what it called “a campaign of paper terrorism” using bogus land claims and bad checks to try to congest Texas courts.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_terrorism

    Thrifty:
    Paper terrorism?Is that like the time I went to that paper warehouse and played Edward Scissorhands on a loop for 48 hours straight?

  111. avatar
    Ggg September 20, 2012 at 10:38 am #

    Thanks.

    misha: I apologize.

  112. avatar
    chancery September 20, 2012 at 3:18 pm #

    Fazil,

    My post was not at all intended to dispute or even to address your points in opposition to foreigner, viz., that disputing an issue does not concede its validity and that universal agreement is not required for an issue to be fully settled. I completely agree with you.

    I was going off on a tangent to mention that the notion that any educated person post 3d century B.C. believed that the earth is flat (prior to the miniscule flat earth cults starting in 19th century England) is wrong The interesting wikipedia article cited below is short, well written, and (I believe) correct. It’s one of my personal hobbyhorses, and I apologize for the thread jack.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

    (I also bristle at the widespread notion that Copernicus’s theory was self-evidently better than the Ptolemaic geocentric system. It didn’t fit the evidence better, nor was it simpler. It was hugely influential and ultimately vindicated, in modified form, by Kepler and Newton, et al., but it remains a puzzle in the history of science. Again, wildly off topic; it’s hard for me to keep my attention focused on the “arguments” of foreigner and his crew.)

    Cheers,

    Chancery

    Fazil Iskander:
    I’m really not sure what your point is, here. The fact that “no one of significance” believed in a flat earth post-Copernicus is true but my point was that there were and continued to be believers in a flat earth for centuries after the physical sciences rejected the idea, just as there will no doubt be believers in a two-parent requirement for natural born citizenship, though the courts have, explicitly, rejected any constitutional basis for the two-parent model. * * *

    chancery: Flat Eartherism is an essentially modern phenomenon, beginning in the 19th century. Nobody (of any significance) objected to the Copernican system because of a belief in a flat earth. That ship had sailed
    over
    the
    horizon
    many centuries earlier.

  113. avatar
    misha September 20, 2012 at 7:21 pm #

    The Magic M: The vast majority in Germany is not like “foreigner”, so I take objection to that.

    As I said to GGG above, I apologize. I should not stereotype. I let prejudice get the better of me.

    Why are Israelis moving to Germany?
    http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/why-are-israelis-moving-to-germany-1.384831

    Thousands of Israelis, among them many artists, have chosen to live in Berlin because of its relaxed atmosphere and relatively low cost of living, even if it means living in a country with a fraught history.

    Two blue-and-white balloons at the compound’s gate announce that we are at the Tel Aviv Beach Party.

    It is a wintry Sunday in August under gray Berlin skies…

  114. avatar
    misha September 20, 2012 at 7:27 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: If Obama is re-elected, I fully expect to see the “Where’s the birth certificate?” signs and bumper stickers replaced with “Impeach Obama.”

    Remember, impeachment is the trial. It does not mean automatic guilt or removal. Clinton was impeached, but not convicted.

    I agree with you.

  115. avatar
    Ggg September 20, 2012 at 9:06 pm #

    I appreciate your forthrightness, and generally I really like your sharp wit.

    One of my dearest friends, a semi-surrogate mother really, lost family in the concentration camps. She would shake when talking about it. I tear up just writing about it. She left us a few years back.

    So trust me, I have no kind thoughts for relentless deniers and birther-sympathizers such as foreigner. I understand the deep value of free speech, even for and especially for fools, but emotionally, I also get Germany’s law against holocaust denial. I still would say it is better to let fools and monsters reveal their true colors, and I would vote for free speech in any imaginable scenario, even about the holocaust. But I get it and appreciate the unique reality of this topic for Germany.

    I thought of my friend because I know she could never have moved back there, no matter the changes. Near the end of her life, though, the Germans became very interested in her and in recognizing her as one of their own (she was somewhat famous in her field). She was a bit bemused by that.

    misha: As I said to GGG above, I apologize. I should not stereotype. I let prejudice get the better of me.

    Why are Israelis moving to Germany?
    http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/why-are-israelis-moving-to-germany-1.384831

    Thousands of Israelis, among them many artists, have chosen to live in Berlin because of its relaxed atmosphere and relatively low cost of living, even if it means living in a country with a fraught history.

    Two blue-and-white balloons at the compound’s gate announce that we are at the Tel Aviv Beach Party.

    It is a wintry Sunday in August under gray Berlin skies…

  116. avatar
    The Magic M September 21, 2012 at 4:00 am #

    misha: As I said to GGG above, I apologize. I should not stereotype. I let prejudice get the better of me.

    No offense taken. I’m guilty of stereotyping myself every now and then, I just wanted to set the record straight.

    Ggg: I also get Germany’s law against holocaust denial. I still would say it is better to let fools and monsters reveal their true colors, and I would vote for free speech in any imaginable scenario, even about the holocaust. But I get it and appreciate the unique reality of this topic for Germany

    Germany has pretty strict laws against libel and slander anyway (something I know is controversial in the view of other countries), so it was quite natural to extend it to this case (since Holocaust denial is pretty much telling every survivor he is a liar).

    And our DA’s are quite over-zealous in that regard anyway. It took a ruling from the highest court before an anti-Nazi activist who distributed stickers with a cross-out swastika to go free. The DA wanted to indict him because he considered this obvious anti-Nazi action “distribution of Nazi symbols”.

  117. avatar
    Rickey September 21, 2012 at 3:19 pm #

    misha: Remember, impeachment is the trial. It does not mean automatic guilt or removal. Clinton was impeached, but not convicted.

    I agree with you.

    And Nate Silver now says that the Democrats have a 75% chance of retaining a majority in the Senate, so even in the unlikely event that the House was ever to vote for impeachment there is zero chance of ever getting 2/3 of the Senate to vote for conviction.

  118. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 2, 2012 at 9:32 am #

    I left this comment on Orly’s blog about the Judd case:

    I’m really trying to be helpful here. I did some back-of-the-envelope calculations on this case with 30 defendants, and it looked to me like when it gets dismissed (for all the reasons you’ve seen a dozen times) that it is likely that you will be assessed costs and fees that could be pushing half a million dollars. You’re particularly vulnerable on the defamation actions that are subject to the California anti-SLAPP statute.

    It’s your life, but I’m just suggesting that you count the inevitable cost of your misguided crusade and its likely bad ending.

  119. avatar
    Majority Will October 2, 2012 at 9:41 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    It’s your life, but I’m just suggesting that you count the inevitable cost of your misguided crusade and its likely bad ending.

    Yosef might have to sell the Tesla Roadster or Orly gives up makeup and haute cuisine for a month.

  120. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 2, 2012 at 9:44 am #

    I was told when I visited Germany earlier this year that even the sale of Mein Kamph was illegal in Germany. I took this photo of graffiti in Wittenberg:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/FNazis.png

    Ggg: I understand the deep value of free speech, even for and especially for fools, but emotionally, I also get Germany’s law against holocaust denial.