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Trump drops other shoe

It really wasn’t with Donald Trump in mind that I named the latest occasional open thread, “Waiting for the other shoe to drop;” nevertheless, it seems appropriate now, as there has been so much antwitterpation of Donald Trump’s “October Surprise” revelation about Barack Obama.

Big Bird holding sign "Will work for food"It turns out that birther concern troll Trump isn’t revealing anything about Obama beyond an offer to donate $5 million to charity if Obama releases his college and passport records. Big Bird could probably use the money right now. Trump is reported to have a net worth somewhere around $3 billion, so his offer amounts to .1% of his riches. I think Obama should hold out for a lot more money plus Romney’s tax returns.

So what is the reaction on Twitter? Samples from #trump:

  • Somewhere right now, Barack Obama is laughing so hard milk is coming out of his nose.
  • Donald #Trump is a national treasure. Do you know how hard it is to be the village idiot in a place as big as New York?
  • Hey Democrats, let’s do it #Trump style and put out a reward for anyone willing to turn in Mitt Romney’s missing tax returns.
  • Obama asks James Bond for help with Trump’s offer: http://youtu.be/FQw6u8oKHdo
  • Obligatory Donald Trump mockery: Hey, #trump , I’ll donate $500 to the charity of your choice if you let me yank on your head ferret.
  • That’s a Clown October Surprise, bro
  • Willard Mitt Romney: October surprise: I’m a member of cult that wears robes behind closed doors and worships men on other planets
  • I will donate $5 million to charity if Donald Trump will disclose what that thing is on his head
  • #pointless and #trump are trending
  • Remember that time when Geraldo opened up Al Capone’s vault and found nothing but some dusty bottles? That’s what this feels like.
  • #Trump I’m mostly offended that you’d dangle $5mil over the heads of helpless people! As if their plight is a game!
  • Exactly. Treating money like it is nothing when you could do tons of charitable works with it.
  • Only a billionaire megalomaniac would attempt 2 bribe a President by withholding donations to charities #trump
  • Donald Trump is the Honey Boo Boo of rich people #trump
  • Donald Trump gets caught on tape pretending he has $5,000,000 dollars. His accountant demands answers… #trump
  • Remember: It only counts as a letdown if you were expecting more.
  • Someone should make a Kickstarter to offer #Trump 5 million to shut up about #Obama already.
  • Donald Trump to announce plans to leap off Empire State Building, using his hair as a parachute #trump

You might ask about positive comments, but there weren’t any.

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164 Responses to Trump drops other shoe

  1. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund October 24, 2012 at 12:36 pm #

    Trump’s BIG NEWS(tm): $5 million to Obama’s charity of choice if he releases his school records and passport applications.

    Prediction: should Obama actually do so, Birther Nation will declare all records forgeries and include them in future litigation.

  2. avatar
    misha marinsky October 24, 2012 at 12:56 pm #

    W. Kevin Vicklund:Trump’s BIG NEWS: $5 million to Obama’s charity of choice if he releases his school records and passport applications.

    I will donate $5 to charity if Trump releases the adoption papers for the badger on his head.

  3. avatar
    JPotter October 24, 2012 at 1:04 pm #

    W. Kevin Vicklund: Trump’s BIG NEWS(tm): $5 million to Obama’s charity of choice if he releases his school records and passport applications.

    Yougottabefuggin’kiddin’me …. except you’re not:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/wp/2012/10/24/surprise-donald-trumps-major-announcement-is-a-big-nothing/

    LOL! Yeah, that’s a real game changer. Haskins writ large.

    Birfer-related. Called it.

    I’m sure Mitt will chime in any second now. Right? Right … ?

    It would be fun to see Obama call him on it and make a very creative selection of the charity.

    … but it would only be followed by the inevitable birfer weaselry by Trump. “It’s a forgery because it exists, hterefore it must be a forgery, blah, blah…”

  4. avatar
    Majority Will October 24, 2012 at 1:15 pm #

    Sure, as long as the charities are the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and Planned Parenthood.

    Obama campaign strategist David Plouffe told a Washington Post reporter: “Direct those questions to Boston, because Trump is Mitt Romney’s biggest supporter, so he owns everything he says.” (source: Washington Post)

  5. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny October 24, 2012 at 1:16 pm #

    JPotter: All stuff and nonsense … overpromise and underdeliver. Sell, Trump, sell! Shuck that jive!

    For a moment I thought Trump’s bomb shell would be that he is the guy who has been supporting Romney by buying shares at Intrade and now, when Romney’s shares have gone up to 45 because of everybody expecting a bomb shell, he has been quietly selling them and may even be a millionnaire again!

  6. avatar
    The Magic M October 24, 2012 at 1:26 pm #

    JPotter: but it would only be followed by the inevitable birfer weaselry by Trump. “It’s a forgery because it exists, hterefore it must be a forgery, blah, blah…”

    More like “it doesn’t say ‘foreign student’, therefore it must be forged”.

    Then again, that wouldn’t matter, it would still be a huge publicity plus for Obama.
    And the Donald has never spoken about “forgery” on national TV, he’s too clever to go that far out.

    However some birthers might hope he is trying to fabricate a case (as in “You show, I don’t pay, so sue me and prove your records are legit, so I get my fishing expedition”).

    That’s why I believe Obama will not take him up on the issue, although it might gain him some votes if he does.

  7. avatar
    Scientist October 24, 2012 at 1:58 pm #

    Just for fun, I researched the records retention policies for college applications. They are generally kept for 5 years after the student graduates and are then destroyed. This is the case for both public and private universities. So, unless the President has personally kept copies of his college applications 30 years later-I certainly don’t have mine and I doubt any of you have yours- they DO NOT EXIST. Sorry Donald.

    Of course, transcript records (courses taken and grades) are kept permanently, but these would not show a student’s nationality, source of funds or any of the other assorted crap the birthers think would damage the President.

  8. avatar
    Wile October 24, 2012 at 2:08 pm #

    Just for grins, I called the admissions office of the university I attended from 1987 to 1991 to see if it was even possible for me to get a copy of my application. The lady almost busted out laughing.

    She told me there was no process for me to get a copy of it even if I had made the request before it was destroyed…two years after my graduation.

  9. avatar
    Wile October 24, 2012 at 2:16 pm #

    Scientist:
    Just for fun…

    Heh. You beat me to it.

  10. avatar
    DP October 24, 2012 at 2:23 pm #

    What’s amazing is how churlish the whole thing is. Trump, lacking any real self awareness, has simply announced he won’t give to charity unless he gets something in return.

    The cherry on the top is that what he wants is mind bogglingly stupid.

    What a swell fellow.

  11. avatar
    BillTheCat October 24, 2012 at 2:40 pm #

    Human garbage. I knew he had nothing. Loser.

  12. avatar
    RuhRoh October 24, 2012 at 2:58 pm #

    In addition to the impossibility of obtaining his applications, I would guess that there are laws governing access to passport documents which would prohibit Obama from releasing them, similar to the laws around vital records that prohibit release of the “vault copy” BC.

    Maybe one of the attorneys could comment?

  13. avatar
    jayHG October 24, 2012 at 3:16 pm #

    Please…….trump is so full of it…….if President Obama releases….”to my satisfaction”…REAL documents, etc.

    It’s just more pathetic birther “no matter what is released I won’t believe it” BS. Nothing more and the folks over at free republic are NOT HAPPY cause this was their “any day not” finally being TODAY………NOT!!!

  14. avatar
    Horus October 24, 2012 at 3:32 pm #

    Birthers were so excited, thinking Trump was going to release the long awaited proof they have been searching for since Obama was elected.
    What a letdown for them!

  15. avatar
    jayHG October 24, 2012 at 3:33 pm #

    The Magic M: More like “it doesn’t say ‘foreign student’, therefore it must be forged”.Then again, that wouldn’t matter, it would still be a huge publicity plus for Obama.And the Donald has never spoken about “forgery” on national TV, he’s too clever to go that far out.However some birthers might hope he is trying to fabricate a case (as in “You show, I don’t pay, so sue me and prove your records are legit, so I get my fishing expedition”).That’s why I believe Obama will not take him up on the issue, although it might gain him some votes if he does.

    If President Obama bothers with this, it should be to laugh at it. If the President were to even entertain the notion of complying with this exercise in futility, it would LOSE him votes, if anything. There is nothing the President could produce that would not be deemed forgery. The only thing that trump and the birthers will believe is anything from Kenya that says Obama was born in Indonesia……or whatever. This is just more stupid birfer BS.

    Anyone who buys this is and never has been a person who would vote for President Obama, so there is no reason in the world for the president to do anything but mock this fool and the rest of the birthers.

  16. avatar
    RuhRoh October 24, 2012 at 3:42 pm #

    This was the Obama campaign’s response to ABC News: When asked about Trump’s comments, Obama campaign chief David Plouffe told reporters: “Direct your questions to Boston [Mitt Romney's campaign headquarters], he’s Romney’s biggest supporter.”

    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/donald-trump-fails-drop-bombshell-offers-cash-obama/story?id=17553670#.UIhEbVHznwk

  17. avatar
    Scientist October 24, 2012 at 3:46 pm #

    RuhRoh: In addition to the impossibility of obtaining his applications, I would guess that there are laws governing access to passport documents which would prohibit Obama from releasing them, similar to the laws around vital records that prohibit release of the “vault copy” BC. Maybe one of the attorneys could comment?

    IANAL, but since passport records are Federal property and he is the President, I think he could release a copy. Unfortunately for the birthers, the fact that Obama has a US passport means that he has satisfied the State Department that HE IS A US CITIZEN.

    As far as whether a US passport holder has or is eligible for another country’s passport, this is not asked on the application and is not the business of the US government. Nor of Donald Trump.

    Considering that people like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett are giving away virtually their entire fortunes without any conditions, Trump is the cheapest SOB on the planet.

  18. avatar
    RuhRoh October 24, 2012 at 3:51 pm #

    I looked up how to access passport records. http://www.travel.state.gov/passport/npic/npic_872.html

    From the link: “Requesting Your Own Record
    Passport Services maintains United States passport records for passports issued from 1925 to the present. These records normally consist of applications for United States passports and supporting evidence of United States citizenship, and are protected by the Privacy Act of 1974, (5 USC 552(a)). Passport records do not include evidence of travel such as entrance/exit stamps, visas, residence permits, etc., since this information is entered into the passport book after it is issued.”

    So essentially, there is nothing that anyone could learn from Obama’s passport records that they don’t already know from seeing his BC.

    *edit* It might have his SSN.

  19. avatar
    LW October 24, 2012 at 4:05 pm #

    JPotter: Haskins writ large.

    That’s “Dean Haskins, Nationally Syndicated Columnist,” to you, sir.

    Now he can add to his byline: “As emulated by famous überbirther The Donald Trump!”

  20. avatar
    M Heuss October 24, 2012 at 4:16 pm #

    This is, of course, one of the funniest things I have read in years.

    misha marinsky: I will donate $5 to charity if Trump releases the adoption papers for the badger on his head.

  21. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 24, 2012 at 4:23 pm #

    I have no reservations about rubbing this in their faces, hard!
    They keep setting themselves up for this, over and over again!
    Crowing like they’ve got something big, only to get let down yet again. Wont’ stop them from falling for it the next time.

    A dog can be taught, trained. If you smack it’s nose for chewing on a slipper enough times, it stops chewing on the slipper.

    A birther on the other hand would keep going for the slipper, regardless of how many times they get smacked on the nose.

  22. avatar
    LW October 24, 2012 at 5:12 pm #

    Any. (whap!) Day. (whap!) Now. (whap!)

  23. avatar
    American Mzungu October 24, 2012 at 5:52 pm #

    Maybe The Donald was attempting a little diversion. According to the Huffington Post headline:

    Trump Place Fires The Donald: Mogul No Longer The Manager Of Pricey New York High Rise

    The story:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/23/the-donald-fired-from-trump-tower-no-longer-manger-new-york-high-rise_n_2006368.html

  24. avatar
    Joe Acerbic October 24, 2012 at 6:34 pm #

    BTW, that $3 billion is nothing but the Combover Con Man’s own assessment of its “brand value”: in other words it’s only running the ancient scam of pretending to be rich to get gullibles to give it money.

  25. avatar
    donna October 24, 2012 at 7:05 pm #

    Betting Firm Refunds Trump Announcement Wagers

    Donald Trump’s big announcement Wednesday was too lame to gamble on. That’s the word from Paddy Power, an online gambling house that had taken bets on what Trump would reveal after weeks of hype.

    Paddy Power refunded all the bets that came in, and chastised Trump.

    “Donald Trump had us all on the edge of our seat anticipating a game changing announcement and we get this!?” Paddy Power spokesperson Féilim Mac An Iomaire said in a statement. “We imagine that those who bet on the announcement feel as cheated as we do and that the only fair thing to do is to refund them their stakes.”

    Even before the announcement was revealed to be a promise by Trump to donate $5 million to charity in return for Obama’s college records, anticipation of Trump’s big news didn’t prove very attractive to gamblers. Paddy Power reported that “just over $500″ in wagers had been placed before Trump’s announcement was made.

  26. avatar
    Daniel October 24, 2012 at 7:23 pm #

    Am I the only one that thinks his “announcement” looks like it was thrown together at the last minute?

    I can’t help but wonder if the Donald didn’t think he actually did have something really good, which fell through at the last minute, so he made up this “offer” in a desperate attempt to not look like he’d been duped?

  27. avatar
    J.D. Reed October 24, 2012 at 7:47 pm #

    Here’s what one of Free Republic’s paranoid posters wrote yesterday:

    “I hope Trump doesn’t have a heart attach while walking down the street tonight.”
    So this means he’s in need of one?

  28. avatar
    Wile October 24, 2012 at 7:47 pm #

    Daniel:
    Am I the only one that thinks his “announcement” looks like it was thrown together at the last minute?

    You are not. It did seem a little back-up plannish.

    And why only $5Million to unseal these records…when everyone knows that Obama has already paid Perkins-Coie $Eleventy Gazillion to keep these records sealed in the first place?

  29. avatar
    RuhRoh October 24, 2012 at 7:50 pm #

    J.D. Reed:
    Here’s what one of Free Republic’s paranoid posters wrote yesterday:

    “I hope Trump doesn’t have a heart attach while walking down the street tonight.”
    So this means he’s in need of one?

    It’s a Breitbart reference, ’cause dontchaknow Obama killed Brietbart AND his coroner?

  30. avatar
    GeorgetownJD October 24, 2012 at 7:55 pm #

    This begs for the release of a new coffee mug emblazoned with the image of the 1983 Columbia University graduation program.

  31. avatar
    JPotter October 24, 2012 at 8:12 pm #

    RuhRoh: It’s a Breitbart reference, ’cause dontchaknow Obama killed Brietbart AND his coroner?

    Just when that was beginning to slide down the memory hole …. you just had to drag it back out LOL

  32. avatar
    J.D. Reed October 24, 2012 at 8:42 pm #

    RuhRoh: It’s a Breitbart reference, ’cause dontchaknow Obama killed Brietbart AND his coroner?

    I knew that. In fact, that”s why I labelled the poster as paranoid. I was just making a pun on his or her typing the wrong word, attach instead of attack.

  33. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 24, 2012 at 8:42 pm #

    When you throw in the fact that he made a demand that couldn’t possibly be fulfilled (as has been pointed out above), it’s hard to believe that even the Donald is dumb enough to have thought that this would be a game changer. Although, if this was plan B, I’m curious to know what scheme turned out to be so bad they wouldn’t even try it…

    Daniel:
    Am I the only one that thinks his “announcement” looks like it was thrown together at the last minute?

    I can’t help but wonder if the Donald didn’t think he actually did have something really good, which fell through at the last minute, so he made up this “offer” in a desperate attempt to not look like he’d been duped?

  34. avatar
    J.D. Reed October 24, 2012 at 8:46 pm #

    As far as thrown together at the last minute, Daniel, I respectfully disagree. I think the birthers will try to make hay of the president’s “turning down $5 million” to help people in need because he’s got something he has to hide.

  35. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 24, 2012 at 9:07 pm #

    Gimme 2.

    GeorgetownJD: This begs for the release of a new coffee mug emblazoned with the image of the 1983 Columbia University graduation program.

  36. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 24, 2012 at 9:22 pm #

    The article has been updated to include reactions from Twitter. See also this video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQw6u8oKHdo

  37. avatar
    James M October 24, 2012 at 9:38 pm #

    Mr. Trump has offered a bribe.

    The proposition is that, in a quid-pro-quo arrangement, the President takes some action which engenders another party to make a specific cash deposit to a specific organization of the President’s choosing.

    How is this anything but bribery? The President _cannot_ accept this proposition without running afoul of numerous OGE and FEC rules, not to mention the *laws* under 5CFR.

  38. avatar
    jayHG October 24, 2012 at 9:48 pm #

    That Honey Boo Boo comment is hillllllarious!!!!

  39. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 24, 2012 at 10:32 pm #

    If this is his attempt at deflecting attention from getting fired from running his own building, he is just adding insult to his own injuries.

  40. avatar
    JPotter October 24, 2012 at 11:53 pm #

    Well, Trumpkins was right about something: everyone is lau—er, talking about it. In passing at least. Not quite the “big way” that was prophesied, but it’s something.

    “trump obama announcement” get 11.5M googlehits. Letterman is 15 minutes in, and has already hit it at least 4 times. Even the Moonie Times had a chuckle. Yikes!

  41. avatar
    Bernard October 24, 2012 at 11:55 pm #

    It’s worth noting that, although Trump was thinking of throwing his hairpiece in the ring and running for Prez himself, he has no made public his own school records, passport, and the like. And, in the press conference today, he was asked about that and still refuses to make his own records public.

  42. avatar
    donna October 25, 2012 at 12:26 am #

    tonight, trump was on leno

    jay: what’s the deal with trump?

    obama: this all dates back to when we were growing up together in kenya – we had constant run-ins on the soccer field – he wasn’t very good …. resented it – when we finally moved to america, i thought it would be over …. but …………

  43. avatar
    John Reilly October 25, 2012 at 12:38 am #

    I think the President ought to release the records (which I suspect have already been assembled for quite some time) and demand the $5 million be donated to Planned Parenthood.

    Trump is an embarassment.

  44. avatar
    James M October 25, 2012 at 1:33 am #

    John Reilly:
    I think the President ought to release the records (which I suspect have already been assembled for quite some time) and demand the $5 million be donated to Planned Parenthood.

    Trump is an embarassment.

    I have tried to explain that if he did this, it would constitute a crime sufficient for impeachment. The President *may not*, under numerous laws, enter into this kind of quid-pro-quo relationship. Not even when the consideration is a charitable donation.

  45. avatar
    foreigner October 25, 2012 at 2:40 am #

    OK, so Trump offers $5M.
    What’s Obama’s price, how much does he (his charity) require for it ?
    He should say. Maybe there is room for negotiations. $50M ?
    I see a new market emerging …
    trading college-record informations or other documents of prominents

  46. avatar
    foreigner October 25, 2012 at 2:47 am #

    Trump should rather offer to reduce the US-debt by one millionth
    That would be much “bigger” new. Still not big enough for the newspapers
    to pick it up, though. Just enough to delay the debt-increase for a few minutes -
    less than it takes him to make the announcement

  47. avatar
    foreigner October 25, 2012 at 3:03 am #

    so, let’s see what a “concern troll” is That Dr.C also claimed I’m one. Says wikipedia:
    > A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose actual point of view is
    > opposed to the one that the user claims to hold. The concern troll posts in Web forums
    > devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group’s actions or opinions
    > while claiming to share their goals, but with professed “concerns”. The goal is to sow fear,
    > uncertainty and doubt within the group.[24]
    (Eine Anliegen-Troll ist ein falscher Flagge-Pseudonym von einem Benutzer, dessen
    aktueller Sicht dem entgegengesetzt ist, die der Nutzer vorgibt zu halten, erstellt.
    Der Besorgnis-Troll Beiträge in Web-Foren seine deklarierte Sicht gewidmet und
    versucht, der Gruppe Aktionen oder Meinungen schwanken während behauptet,
    ihre Ziele zu teilen, aber mit Profess “betrifft”. Ziel ist es, Angst, Unsicherheit
    und Zweifel innerhalb der Gruppe zu säen.[24])
    ——————————-
    I hope for the Dr.C. he’s one itself here – since if I took him serious on that he would
    look rather silly with all the opposite evidence around.

  48. avatar
    bovril October 25, 2012 at 3:32 am #

    So “gsgs” to use your other tag, based on the very definition you have provided you are a concern troll. Get over it, you are what you are.

  49. avatar
    Lani October 25, 2012 at 3:44 am #

    Thanks, foreigner! I was confused by your strange, seemingly conflicting posts, but providing the “concern troll” definition cleared it up for me. Much appreciated!

    Have a nice day!

  50. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 25, 2012 at 4:18 am #

    Actually bovril, I think Guenter (thanks for letting me know “foreigner” was “gsgs”, by the way…) isn’t so much a concern troll as he is epically naive. The guys over at Woodman’s site seem to feel he made a significant contribution to debunking the LFBC forgery claim and I don’t believe that he thinks that President Obama is ineligible anymore (please correct me if I’m wrong, Guenter), but just about all of his political and legal assessments are pretty much naive to the point of being juvenile. Actually, now that I think about it, he probably is a concern troll—just not a birther concern troll… ;-)

    bovril:
    So “gsgs” to use your other tag, based on the very definition you have provided you are a concern troll. Get over it, you are what you are.

  51. avatar
    The Magic M October 25, 2012 at 4:19 am #

    jayHG: Anyone who buys this is and never has been a person who would vote for President Obama, so there is no reason in the world for the president to do anything but mock this fool and the rest of the birthers.

    My logic was that if Obama takes up the offer, he makes Trump appear even more the idiot. But you may be correct that this is actually impossible. ;)

    foreigner: Eine Anliegen-Troll ist ein falscher Flagge-Pseudonym

    Why do you use Google Translate? A proper German translation of “concern troll” would be “Betroffenheitsheuchler” or “Besorgnisvortäuscher”.

  52. avatar
    The Magic M October 25, 2012 at 4:22 am #

    Trump’s Facebook thread with his “announcement” is a good example for pathological cases of denial.
    Even after this big disappointment, you find some people going “I bet Trump has the records already and will release them when his Oct 31 deadline expires”.

    The birther version of the saying probably goes:
    “Fool me a thousand times, shame on you. Fool me a 1,001st time, shame on you again.”

  53. avatar
    Scientist October 25, 2012 at 7:06 am #

    foreigner: OK, so Trump offers $5M.What’s Obama’s price, how much does he (his charity) require for it ?He should say. Maybe there is room for negotiations. $50M ?I see a new market emerging …trading college-record informations or other documents of prominents

    You sound like the kind of person who “helps” the poor widow of the Nigerian general transfer her funds out of the country.

    The Trump “offer” is a SCAM, Read the fine print-he says,, “If the documents meet my approval”. Of course, no docments would ever meet his approval.

    Besides, I already showed that colleges do not keep applications on file more than a few years after the student graduates. Obama’s college applications DO NOT EXIST TODAY. They are gone, kaput, untergegangen, nicht vorhanden. Do you get it?

  54. avatar
    The Magic M October 25, 2012 at 8:08 am #

    Scientist: They are gone, kaput, untergegangen, nicht vorhanden. Do you get it?

    Futsch, wech, fott, nimmer do, ‘naussiganga, und tschüss. One of these dialects should be yours. ;)

  55. avatar
    JPotter October 25, 2012 at 8:30 am #

    Concerned troll takes break from concern trolling to express concern over being identified as a concern troll.

    How precious.

  56. avatar
    foreigner October 25, 2012 at 9:20 am #

    yes, I do remember slartibartfast from Woodman’s blog.
    He had been generally abusive and insulting to people that
    he perceives as “birthers” . It’s his pattern.
    He had to apologize to me at least twice for being wrong e.g. in this thread
    http:/www.obamabirthbook.com/2012/03/on-the-release-of-report-from-sheriff-joe-arpaio-stating-barack-obamas-birth-certificate-is-a-forgery/
    but still continued later.
    So they chased away Papit and got at least one other person banned, who stayed civil.
    That reminds me to my first experience here back in summer 2011 when “retired intelligence
    officer” (or such) was banned, while being the only one stayed civil in that discussion.

  57. avatar
    foreigner October 25, 2012 at 9:26 am #

    Obama could tell us something about his views on nuclear arms control/reduction.
    This was an important issue during cold war and one of the pretended reasons
    for the Iraq war. It seems that he had spent quite some time on the issue back
    in 1983. And he is well educated and competent. I’d like to read about his opinion.
    I.e. also wrt. possible use of terrorist nukes and how he would react.

  58. avatar
    Scientist October 25, 2012 at 9:34 am #

    foreigner: Obama could tell us something about his views on nuclear arms control/reduction.

    He did. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/09/world/europe/09prexy.html

    The new Start Treaty was signed in Prague, which is fairly near where you live, is it not? Did the German media not cover it? By the way, Rmoney says he was opposed, but that could change depending on the time of day and the phase of the moon..

  59. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater October 25, 2012 at 9:41 am #

    foreigner: OK, so Trump offers $5M.What’s Obama’s price, how much does he (his charity) require for it ?He should say. Maybe there is room for negotiations. $50M ?I see a new market emerging …trading college-record informations or other documents of prominents

    Trump might as well have asked for the nuclear codes. This I’m going to kill a puppy if you don’t meet my demands tactic by trump is ludicrous.

  60. avatar
    foreigner October 25, 2012 at 9:53 am #

    here you expect others to be “good Obots” in that they join the general birther-attacking,
    ridiculing,insulting,hostile mood here. When someone is not perfectly on-line here he’s
    at least a concern troll. You won’t accept neutral opinions or people thinking
    Obama should explain how the pdf was created or release records,
    since that’s already birtherish.
    I think that’s a bit intolerant. And certainly not Obama’s – philosophy,
    from what I read about him in the books.
    Why should I think otherwise (as in the wikipedia definition of “concern troll” ) ?
    It’s what I always said, also on other blogs and forums. Check it.
    And then I’m not hiding my identity as the other request of “concern troll” in the
    wikipedia definition. I posted an extensive bio at fogbow (where they first put me to
    “fema-camp”) and linked to it from here at least 3 times when that came up.
    I posted my birth certificate at Woodman’s blog. I have a long history of internet posts
    that can be checked.
    When I often express a view here different from others, then that is quite natural.
    There is not much to be discussed when you agree 100%, not much interesting
    would come out of that. Except maybe for all these “funny” people here who are trying
    to add funny twists to stories.

  61. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 25, 2012 at 9:55 am #

    Retired Intelligence Officer wasn’t banned for being uncivil, but for lying, slandering and goading others to be uncivil. He was like the soft-spoken villain in a James Bond novel whose speaks politely, but whose intent is to create chaos and destruction. Just as the contrast is designed in the novels to engender outrage in the reader, the same reaction occurred here on the blog.

    foreigner: So they chased away Papit and got at least one other person banned, who stayed civil.
    That reminds me to my first experience here back in summer 2011 when “retired intelligence

  62. avatar
    ASK Esq October 25, 2012 at 10:01 am #

    Stephen Colbert demonstrated very well why those who say there’s no reason for Obama to not go along with Trump’s demand don’t know what they’re talking about.

    The Colbert Report Get More: Colbert Report Full Episodes,Political Humor & Satire Blog,Video Archive

  63. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 25, 2012 at 10:02 am #

    I have my own troll definition, developed from experience, and not from the Wikipedia. One of the determining factors on my list is that when a concern troll is not stirring up enough trouble on topic, they try to shift the argument to the tenor of the discussion itself and comments about “bans” are introduced.

    Another characteristic I’ve noticed is that a concern troll will try to become established and to gradually ramp up the “outrage generating” content of their comments. Then the frequency of commenting increases sharply so as to precipitate a crisis, resulting in them getting banned, which is the goal from the beginning. They can then go bragging around the Internet about how unfair the place that banned them is.

    foreigner: When someone is not perfectly on-line here he’s
    at least a concern troll.

  64. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 25, 2012 at 10:04 am #

    I am putting you in moderation for tread hijacking.

    foreigner: Obama could tell us something about his views on nuclear arms control/reduction.

  65. avatar
    foreigner October 25, 2012 at 10:18 am #

    Dr.C.,
    did it ever occur to you, that it’s maybe those others then, who go to “chaos”
    and started being uncivil who should be blamed ? And reminded to stay civil
    and nonchaotic ? Seems more to me that you encourage them, even join occasionally.
    —————————————–
    Woodman’s blog is closing, he sent me here.
    If you want me to post less, just say it and I’ll try.
    I stay away from most threads.
    —————————————–
    it’s usually not me, who starts these “stirrings”. See how slartybartfast
    was following me from Woodman’s in the latest example.

  66. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater October 25, 2012 at 10:32 am #

    foreigner: it’s usually not me, who starts these “stirrings”. See how slartybartfastwas following me from Woodman’s in the latest example.

    Persecution complex much? How could slarty be following you? Slarty is a long time commenter on this site.

  67. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny October 25, 2012 at 10:35 am #

    The Magic M: Why do you use Google Translate? A proper German translation of “concern troll” would be “Betroffenheitsheuchler” or “Besorgnisvortäuscher”.

    Google helps you out:
    http://globalklima.blogspot.be/2010/01/betroffenheitstrolle.html

    That is, of course, a plural.

  68. avatar
    Scientist October 25, 2012 at 10:51 am #

    foreigner: did it ever occur to you, that it’s maybe those others then, who go to “chaos”
    and started being uncivil who should be blamed ?

    You brought up the issue of wanting to know about Obama’s thoughts on nuclear arms control. I pointed out the Start Treaty he negotiated with Russia. You ignored me. That is rude and shows very bad faith on your part.

    Is that not more relevant than a paper he wrote 30 years ago as a college student? It is typical of the birthers to ignore that Obama has been PRESIDENT FOR THE LAST FOUR FRICKIN YEARS. Everything anyone needs to know about him is right there in front of your nose.

    Now, will you respond or are you a rude, loutish person?

  69. avatar
    Matt October 25, 2012 at 10:53 am #

    If Trump will show us what he looks like without his piece, we’ll donate $5M to charity.
    http://www.indiegogo.com/stump-the-trump

  70. avatar
    The Magic M October 25, 2012 at 11:15 am #

    Paul Pieniezny: Google helps you out:
    http://globalklima.blogspot.be/2010/01/betroffenheitstrolle.html

    I never saw this word in any German forum, not even once. Maybe we simply don’t have as many. ;)

    Paul Pieniezny: That is, of course, a plural.

    I know. :)

  71. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 25, 2012 at 11:44 am #

    foreigner,

    You often get mistaken for a birther because you repeat a pattern that has been carried out on this blog (and every other obot blog) by far too many birther concern trolls to count.

    Let’s examine your behavior on this thread:

    You show up (about six hours after I first posted on this thread, by the way…) making your typically naive “suggestions” regarding what President Obama should do—completely ignoring the comments by Scientist, JayHG, James M and others regarding how doing as you suggest would be impossible, illegal, and politically unwise (I’m not sure you even read them). Then, you started whining about being called a “concern troll” —even though no one was calling you one on this thread (at that point). Furthermore, you never showed any attempts at honestly engaging in the discussion—you just stomped in here like a naive child and and started throwing a self-pitying tantrum. Many examples can be found on this blog that are incredibly similar—nearly always from birther concern trolls. What did you expect the people here to think about you? (I’m guessing that it didn’t even occur to you to think about it)

    foreigner:
    Dr.C.,
    did it ever occur to you, that it’s maybe those others then, who go to “chaos”
    and started being uncivil who should be blamed ?

    Neither lying nor refusing to engage in honest discussion have any place in civil discourse and while ignorance and naivety are not necessarily impolite, once you add “willful” to them, they very much are.

    And reminded to stay civil
    and nonchaotic ? Seems more to me that you encourage them, even join occasionally.

    It seems to me that you have a very poor understanding of the dynamics here—partly excusable by your language issues—and you’ve shown no willingness to honestly engage on the subject (but quite the willingness to whine about it).

    —————————————–
    Woodman’s blog is closing, he sent me here.
    If you want me to post less, just say it and I’ll try.
    I stay away from most threads.
    —————————————–

    Which once again shows how you don’t understand or listen when people try to explain things to you—if Doc C wanted you to post less, I’m sure he would just tell you (although I can’t imagine him doing so). Instead, he has told you what you were doing wrong (hijacking the thread—there is always an open thread which you can comment on anything, but Doc likes to keep his guests on topic here) and put you in diapers until you show that you understand how not to make a mess).

    Doc,

    Sorry about this comment that is (mostly) off-topic, but I thought that Gunter could use the explanations…

    it’s usually not me, who starts these “stirrings”. See how slartybartfast
    was following me from Woodman’s in the latest example.

    As Dr. Ken point out (thanks, Dr. Ken! ;-) ) I’ve been posting on this site for a long time (a lot longer than you’ve been posting on the topic anywhere that I’m aware of)—including, as noted above—posting on this thread hours before you did.

    foreigner:
    yes, I do remember slartibartfast from Woodman’s blog.
    He had been generally abusive and insulting to people that
    he perceives as “birthers” . It’s his pattern.

    Yes, I don’t suffer liars, ignorant fools, nor idiots gladly and I’m not particularly fond of bigots, either. Were you raised to believe that lying is acceptable behavior?

    He had to apologize to me at least twice for being wrong e.g. in this thread
    http:/www.obamabirthbook.com/2012/03/on-the-release-of-report-from-sheriff-joe-arpaio-stating-barack-obamas-birth-certificate-is-a-forgery/
    but still continued later.

    When I make a mistake, I admit it (I don’t believe I have made any mistakes in my comments regarding you here, however) and I’m willing to consider evidence that may prove me wrong—two things that birthers and concern trolls (such as yourself) never seem willing to do.

    So they chased away Papit and got at least one other person banned, who stayed civil.
    That reminds me to my first experience here back in summer 2011 when “retired intelligence
    officer” (or such) was banned, while being the only one stayed civil in that discussion.

    RIO (not the only handle the commenter has used, by the way) was not civil—re-read what I’ve written here if you don’t understand why.

    Gunter (sorry for misspelling your name above—it wasn’t intentional),

    You really should try to understand that not everything is about you nor is everything black and white. You’ve decided to paint me as a bad guy (which is your right), without even acknowledging that I was also defending you (I made it clear that you weren’t a birther—just a concern troll) or explaining how any of the arguments I’ve made were wrong (although you pointed out that I am willing to admit my mistakes, so you were definitely aware that I consider contrary arguments). You’ll get along much better here if you are a little more aware of how your behavior is likely to be perceived by the commenters here and a lot more willing to engage in honest discussion.

    Just sayin’…

  72. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 25, 2012 at 11:52 am #

    foreigner,

    A good way to start reforming your image here would be to make a substantive reply to Scientist’s post. Just a helpful suggestion…

    Scientist: You brought up the issue of wanting to know about Obama’s thoughts on nuclear arms control. I pointed out the Start Treaty he negotiated with Russia.You ignored me. That is rude and shows very bad faith on your part.

    Is that not more relevant than a paper he wrote 30 years ago as a college student? It is typical of the birthers to ignore that Obama has been PRESIDENT FOR THE LAST FOUR FRICKIN YEARS. Everything anyone needs to know about him is right there in front of your nose.

    Now, will you respond or are you a rude, loutish person?

  73. avatar
    Wile October 25, 2012 at 12:01 pm #

    Scientist:
    Just for fun, I researched the records retention policies for college applications.They are generally kept for 5 years after the student graduates and are then destroyed…

    It looks like Occidental College follows a five year policy. Here is their record retention policy (page 4 for student applications)…
    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=occidental%20college%20application%20retention%20policy&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oxy.edu%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fassets%2FCollege_Policies%2FRecord_Retention_Policy.doc&ei=WF-JULiMDI602AXNoIHoBg&usg=AFQjCNEyPgn3JrHpmsZiNct3Hij1xmqnWQ

    Trump’s Great Shoe Drop is merely the droppings from a pompous heel.

  74. avatar
    Scientist October 25, 2012 at 12:35 pm #

    Wile: looks like Occidental College follows a five year policy

    The birthers like to pretend that just because they would like to see a record, it must, therefore, exist. David (ex nihilo) Farrar was on Woodman’s site demanding hospital records of Obama birth. I pointed out that Hawaii law requires such records to be kept for 25 years past the child’s18th birthday, which means that for 1961 births they were no longer needed after 2004 (if they hadn’t already been destroyed years before when the laws were much looser).

    Records retention is costly and has legal consequences and organizations generally destroy them once the laws and their internal policies no longer require they be kept.

  75. avatar
    BillTheCat October 25, 2012 at 12:35 pm #

    Wait, so “Foreigner” is “gsgs”?? Ok, now it all makes sense.

  76. avatar
    pcbbeachgirl52 October 25, 2012 at 12:51 pm #

    I know of a few people that absolutely believe that his transcripts will show his communist connection and that even the secret service has hidden this from the public. How do you combat this?

  77. avatar
    Scientist October 25, 2012 at 1:10 pm #

    pcbbeachgirl52: I know of a few people that absolutely believe that his transcripts will show his communist connection and that even the secret service has hidden this from the public. How do you combat this?

    How exactly would a transcript show such a thing? Suppose someone took a course in Marxist theory? So what? If you are a serious student of political science or economics or history, you should know about Marx, just as you should know about Hume, Locke, Madison, Weber, etc. Especially in 1981, when the USSR and China both claimed to be following Marx. Would someone who took a course in 20th century German history be considered a follower of Schickelgruber?

  78. avatar
    pcbbeachgirl52 October 25, 2012 at 1:21 pm #

    Scientist: How exactly would a transcript show such a thing? Suppose someone took a course in Marxist theory?So what?If you are a serious student of political science or economics or history, you should know about Marx, just as you should know about Hume, Locke, Madison, Weber, etc.Especially in 1981, when the USSR and China both claimed to be following Marx.Would someone who took a course in 20th century German history be considered a follower of Schickelgruber?

    It was just a question, not a statement. I keep hearing these “communist, Nazi accusations and don’t believe it, but have a hard time explaining to these types that it isn’t true. While I’m new on this site, I don’t think I needed to be “jumped on” like that. The question remains.

  79. avatar
    JPotter October 25, 2012 at 1:22 pm #

    Scientist: Suppose someone took a course in Marxist theory?

    Reflecting on my own transcript, I could be construed as a pagan oceanographer, part-time archaeologist, who’s handy with a camera and has a love of clasical fashion and period costume.

    I should be so interesting.

    To the reddest necks, that Obama went to college at all proves he is a Marxist (and a snob :P )

  80. avatar
    Scientist October 25, 2012 at 1:31 pm #

    pcbbeachgirl52: It was just a question, not a statement. I keep hearing these “communist, Nazi accusations and don’t believe it, but have a hard time explaining to these types that it isn’t true. While I’m new on this site, I don’t think I needed to be “jumped on” like that. The question remains

    I not jumping on you, I’m giving you arguments you can use. Point out to those people that simply studying something doesn’t mean you support it. It might man that you want to understand it, so you can combat it. Criminologists study crime, but that doesn’t mean they support it (at least I would hope not).

    Anyway, I don’t see why it matters what someone who has been President for 4 years might have believed when he was a 20-year-old. You either like what he has done in office, or you don’t. Simple as that.

  81. avatar
    pcbbeachgirl52 October 25, 2012 at 2:12 pm #

    @Scientist

    Ok, guess I didn’t understand what you were doing… it doesn’t seem to make any difference to some. People who I’ve thought were pretty smart seem to be really falling for all this hype. People who would never have watched Michael Moore’s movies think that “2016″ is for real and believe everything in it.

    I see in the other posts that colleges don’t keep their records after so many years…not sure how that will change those opinions. You’re right that you either like him or not…but you’d at least hope that they’d base that on facts and not a witch-hunt.

    I did notice on someones link, maybe on Facebook, that the college the President went to had posted the policy for retaining records, it was dated May of 2008….hope that was before Obama declared he was running!!

    Thank you!

  82. avatar
    pcbbeachgirl52 October 25, 2012 at 2:41 pm #

    Dr. C, thanks for this site. I stumbled on it when I googled Obamas records…otherwise might never have found it. I did post this link on my Facebook page…

  83. avatar
    American Mzungu October 25, 2012 at 2:47 pm #

    pcbbeachgirl52: I did notice on someones link, maybe on Facebook, that the college the President went to had posted the policy for retaining records, it was dated May of 2008….hope that was before Obama declared he was running!!

    Your deep concern comes through loud and clear.

  84. avatar
    pcbbeachgirl52 October 25, 2012 at 2:54 pm #

    Just sayin’..I’m sure I wasn’t the only one to notice. I wonder why no one else, other than here, has figured out that the colleges do not keep records forever. One site has a lady stating they keep them until you die…which seems wierd, how would they know I died???

    But, seriously no one else has figured out they don’t keep those kinds of records forever?

  85. avatar
    American Mzungu October 25, 2012 at 3:09 pm #

    pcbbeachgirl52: Just sayin’..I’m sure I wasn’t the only one to notice. I wonder why no one else, other than here, has figured out that the colleges do not keep records forever. One site has a lady stating they keep them until you die…which seems wierd, how would they know I died???

    Your pain is my pain!

  86. avatar
    American Mzungu October 25, 2012 at 3:21 pm #

    But in the interest of full disclosure, I also felt the deep, painful concern of The Donald, who just wants all these honest questions answered so they did not keep him awake at night.

  87. avatar
    pcbbeachgirl52 October 25, 2012 at 3:24 pm #

    Yes, don’t want him to lose any hair…I mean sleep over it…

  88. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 25, 2012 at 3:28 pm #

    One of my favorite beaches too. My late uncle was a Methodist minister there sometime around the early 1960s

    Thanks for joining in the conversation..

    pcbbeachgirl52: Dr. C, thanks for this site. I stumbled on it when I googled Obamas records…otherwise might never have found it. I did post this link on my Facebook page…

  89. avatar
    Scientist October 25, 2012 at 3:28 pm #

    pcbbeachgirl52: Ok, guess I didn’t understand what you were doing… it doesn’t seem to make any difference to some. People who I’ve thought were pretty smart seem to be really falling for all this hype. People who would never have watched Michael Moore’s movies think that “2016″ is for real and believe everything in it.

    Would you mind if we explore this a bit further -in the interests of science? Who are these “people”? Did any of them say, “Gee, I really like the President and think he’s doing a great job, but, if his transcripts show he took a class in the History of Marxism, then I’m voting for Romney, even if he is the shiftiest candidate for office in the entire world and I can’t trust a single thing he says”? Or, on the other hand, did any of them say, “I can’t stand Obama and think he has been a disaster as President, but I see here he only took classes in the US Constitution and the Bible, so he has won my vote”?

    I apologize if my scientific curiosity has caused me to ask these questions,, but I am honestly trying to figure out what difference someone’s college classes would make compared to their 4 year record in office, where they have been on TV almost every day and signed a whole bunch of laws and other stuff.

  90. avatar
    Scientist October 25, 2012 at 3:32 pm #

    pcbbeachgirl52: Just sayin’..I’m sure I wasn’t the only one to notice. I wonder why no one else, other than here, has figured out that the colleges do not keep records forever. One site has a lady stating they keep them until you die…which seems wierd, how would they know I died??? But, seriously no one else has figured out they don’t keep those kinds of records forever?

    Just to be clear, they keep records of the classes you took and the grades you got forever. What they get rid of after 5 years or so is your application (yes, that wonderful essay you wrote that got you into Old Whatever is lining a birdcage now). And if you read Trump’s letter, it specifically demands applications aand transcripts. So, his “offer” is a scam.

  91. avatar
    pcbbeachgirl52 October 25, 2012 at 3:41 pm #

    It’s the fact that they can’t “see” them, they can look up Hillary’s, Bush Jr and Romeny’s but no one seems to be able to look up Obama’s. Sso, therefore he has something to hide and is a closet commie/nazi. It’s probably the same line of thought as the birth certificate. It’s not reasonable to me, so it’s hard to come back with something that would cause them to rethink it. People do change after 4 years of college, 4 years of life, maybe they’re the kind of people that don’t change and therefore no one else changes either. Who knows, sometimes I feel like I’m a dummy for not believing the way they do, then I shake myself and come out of it. They don’t feel he’s a good leader, because he hasn’t “led” anyone, hasn’t changed anything, they blame all the countries ills on him, because everything was “peachy” when Bush left office, or they feel he should have fixed this overnight. I do not know the reasoning behind their thoughts, and if you ask..it’s like you’ve turned into the devil or something.

    Has Pres. Obama been a good leader? I think he has as much as anyone has allowed him to be. Is this his mess or Bushes, well today he has a hand in it, but 1/19/2009 it wasn’t. I don’t think he coud have fixed it all in one fell swoop, not possible. He had so many things he HAD to do once he took office, the rest had to take a back seat. I’m not good at politics, would like to be, but it seems as soon as you have knowledge on something or someone..the rules change and so do facts. It’s like living in the “Twilight Zone” sometimes.

  92. avatar
    pcbbeachgirl52 October 25, 2012 at 3:45 pm #

    I didn’t go to college, so I guess I don’t have to worry about what I wrote back in 1970 or so…and that’s a good thing. Your thoughts and ideals change, mature; at least I think most peoples’ do once they get out in the world.

    Thanks you’ve been helpful…have to go off-line for now but I will respond back.

  93. avatar
    Paper October 25, 2012 at 3:46 pm #

    It could be interesting to a PhD candidate doing a thesis on something about the affects of pedagogy, or how different curriculums get reflected in the culture, or politics of a nation, using this or any president as an example. Zoom in to a specific thesis, more than I am doing here admittedly off the cuff. But of course, Trump and those calling for such things have no such serious intention. If they did, they would get to work on whatever twist of the issue interests them, rather than asking rhetorical questions, just loaded for nuisance/political affect. If it was a criminal interest, as we know, such people would not merely mumble about what their people in Hawaii were finding (Trump), or hold meaningless press conferences (Arpaio and friends). If Crosby was interested in real reporting, he would do a real job of it.

    Serious enquirers don’t play such games as Trump is doing here. We know this. Discerning people know this.

    The concern troll question here (for me) is not whether or not someone is a birther, or is hiding their true beliefs or not, but about ignoring or distracting from real enquiry with “concerns.” My answer typically is: Concerned? Get to work. It’s your concern. Get started on that PhD thesis, or mount a real investigation, put together a real piece of reporting. Defending incompetent or mendacious work is not meaningful.

    Someone like Trump dances fir his pittance. He has become a concern troll of the culture at large, getting attention to market himself and his businesses. His concerns are demonstrably insubstantial. “No one” takes Trump seriously. Which is why someone like Joe Scarborough can admire the “clinic politician” at work when Obama tells Jay Leno that it all started when he and Trump were growing up together in Kenya.

    I use the word “no one” even though I know there are some who take him seriously. Especially if you have business with him, or are n employee. I used to have a *modest* respect for his business skills.

    The point here is that it is a form of, or relative of concern trolling to get in a tizzy about the word “no one” in this observation. Something foreigner was just doing in the other thread about Crosby. Trump at large is a joke. For the purposes of real conversation, it matters not that in some aspects of his life he is competent and not a joke, nor that there are some who do take him seriously. It matters not for real conversation that someone somewhere thinks “classmate” only means course-mate. “No one” thinks that.

    Foreigner, if you are reading this, you may not be a birther (I am agnostic about your motives), but in your posts you often focus on irrelevant details, miss the forest for the trees, chase rabbits down holes. Sometimes you may contribute to some detail; perhaps in life you are good at such things, but you fail at context and relevancy. Just as Trump often fails, jumping from thread to thread without respect to the actual conversation at hand. “Stop asking me about birther stuff,” says Trump to Blitzer (I paraphrase). “Let’s talk about national security or the economy…Oh by the way, Obama should release his college records. But come on people stop talking about me, really! I mean, really. Wait don’t stop. I’ll give some money to charity if he releases his school records. Now can we discuss serious stuff?”

    Thus you, foreigner, jump from the Crosby thread to this thread transporting whatever concerns you have from there to here helter skelter, dropping your “shoes” wherever you feel like, then complain about others. Who really cares if you are a concern troll or not? But your *posts* often read like they are apprentice work for Trump brand trolling.

    Returning to the top, serious enquirers don’t act like Trump, or Crosby, or Arpaio. Defending their minutia is ridiculous. Anyone who wants to do so can, but expect well-deserved laughter when Obama mentions you on Jay Leno’s show. At least Orly Taitz, for example, is more committed than these jokers. I mean, she seems like she would be competent if she could. Her earnest frustration is palpable. Got to give her that. She may be a vexatious litigant, but troll? Not sure.

    Anyway, enough strolling in the woods of such reflections…probably they only end up helping me work out some thoughts about my own band of birthers, with their own varied “concerns.”

    Scientist:

    Anyway, I don’t see why it matters what someone who has been President for 4 years might have believed when he was a 20-year-old. You either like what he has done in office, or you don’t.Simple as that.

  94. avatar
    Wile October 25, 2012 at 3:48 pm #

    pcbbeachgirl52:
    It’s the fact that they can’t “see” them, they can look up Hillary’s, Bush Jr and Romeny’s but no one seems to be able to look up Obama’s.

    You might try, “I think that’s a lie. Show me.”

  95. avatar
    pcbbeachgirl52 October 25, 2012 at 3:55 pm #

    I’m not understanding how they can look up Hillarys’ or Bush Jr’s or Romneys if they’ve been purged. So, calling them on it might work…

    Ya’ll have a good day…cause..

    a bad day at the beach, is better than a good day at work!!

  96. avatar
    Scientist October 25, 2012 at 3:55 pm #

    pcbbeachgirl52: It’s the fact that they can’t “see” them, they can look up Hillary’s, Bush Jr and Romeny’s but no one seems to be able to look up Obama’s.

    Really? How would I look up Hillary’s college records or Romney’s? Where are they? Yes, Bush, Jr and Kerry had their college transcripts LEAKED-that means someone in the college gave them to a reporter WITHOUT permission. No one has done that with Obama or Romney (and whoever did it would be fired on the spot if they were caught). So, no, Obama is not hiding anything (nor is Romney regarding his college records-though his taxes are another matter).

    pcbbeachgirl52: They don’t feel he’s a good leader, because he hasn’t “led” anyone, hasn’t changed anything, they blame all the countries ills on him, because everything was “peachy” when Bush left office, or they feel he should have fixed this overnight

    Anyone is entitled to their opinion on the job Obama has done in office. I don’t see the relationship to his college transcripts. Really and truly I don’t.

  97. avatar
    James M October 25, 2012 at 3:55 pm #

    pcbbeachgirl52:
    It’s the fact that they can’t “see” them, they can look up Hillary’s, Bush Jr and Romeny’s

    Kindly produce a document for Secretary Clinton, President Bush, or Governor Romney, for which you claim the corresponding document is suppressed for President Obama.

    What would that document be? Course transcript? Application for admission? Scholarship application? Loan application? Whatever the 1960s or 1980s equivalent of a FAFSA request would be?

    What, specifically, do you have for the people you named, that you don’t have for President Obama, and why, specifically, do you need it?

  98. avatar
    James M October 25, 2012 at 3:59 pm #

    Scientist: Yes, Bush, Jr and Kerry had their college transcripts LEAKED

    When did the subject change to “transcripts” anyway? The claim is that President Obama applied for (unspecified) financial aid as a foreign student. Of course that claim is made by people who somehow believe that financial aid was more easily obtained by foreign students than by US Citizens in the 1980s.

    I haven’t seen anyone make a coherent case that says what they are actually asking for, just a vague assertion that it is improperly concealed, and the basis for that seems to be “they haven’t seen it (whatever it is).”

  99. avatar
    pcbbeachgirl52 October 25, 2012 at 4:00 pm #

    @ Scientist Well, THAT’S what I’m talking about…how do you go about looking them up, if they aren’t there…so Wile has a good point…but how WOULD you look them up??? if you even can. If I knew where you went to college, could I look yours up? Assuming, of course you graduated 4 years ago?

    If someone told you he hasn’t/can’t lead this country, what would you say?

  100. avatar
    Scientist October 25, 2012 at 4:16 pm #

    James M: When did the subject change to “transcripts” anyway? The claim is that President Obama applied for (unspecified) financial aid as a foreign student. Of course that claim is made by people who somehow believe that financial aid was more easily obtained by foreign students than by US Citizens in the 1980s.

    Yes, it makes me wonder if any of the birthers actually went to college. Foreign students, of course, are ineligible for all the Pell grants, loans, and state/federal scholarships that US students get. They generaly come from well-off families that pay their way or they get support from their home government in exchange for committing to return there after graduation. Now why would the Kenyan or Indoesian governments pay for someone that had lived in the US since he was 10 and showed no intention of going to live in eiither of those countries after graduating? So, in fact, there is less financial aid, not more for those who aren’t US citizens or permanent residents. That’s the issue with the Dream Act and undocumented aliens wannting to go to college. Right now, they can’t, because there is no financial aid for them.

  101. avatar
    Scientist October 25, 2012 at 4:25 pm #

    pcbbeachgirl52: If I knew where you went to college, could I look yours up?

    Absolutely not. You would need my written permission to access any of my college records. Most colleges would confirm that I attended and graduated (as Obama’s colleges have done for him). But that’s it.

    pcbbeachgirl52: If someone told you he hasn’t/can’t lead this country, what would you say?

    Personally, I think Obama has done a very good job. It is my opinion that the economy has turned around (and the stock market shares that opinion) and that if a Republican had been in in 2009 we would now be in a 1930s-like Depression with millions living in tents. Or, the Republican would have done pretty much what Obama did (actually, I think that is what would have happened and they would be arguing the other side, just like Romney with health care). Obama ended the war in Iraq, focussed on Afghanistan as he promised and got bin Laden. What more could anyone do? Romney sys he will do blah-blah-blah, but won’t say how. That is what snake oil salesmen do.

  102. avatar
    pcbbeachgirl52 October 25, 2012 at 4:35 pm #

    I think he’s done a good a job as he can under the circumstances; no help from Congress, even his own party deserted him there for a while. When I ask if “they” think McCain/Palin would have done better, I get the “deer in the headlights look,” and a mumble about something or another. Blahblahblah is right on for Romney….he’s that guy in the Allstate commercials…mayhem.

  103. avatar
    Sudoku October 25, 2012 at 4:36 pm #

    What can you “see” of records belonging to HIllary, GWB or Romney that you cannot for Obama. Please provide lilnks.

    pcbbeachgirl52: It’s the fact that they can’t “see” them, they can look up Hillary’s, Bush Jr and Romeny’s but no one seems to be able to look up Obama’s.

  104. avatar
    pcbbeachgirl52 October 25, 2012 at 5:45 pm #

    @Sudoku I have never tried to look them up and don’t have any links to give you, wouldn’t know where to start. And even if I did, I would need permission to view them, providing that they would still be there.

  105. avatar
    Sudoku October 25, 2012 at 5:52 pm #

    I guess I am missing something. What are you referring to here?

    pcbbeachgirl52: It’s the fact that they can’t “see” them, they can look up Hillary’s, Bush Jr and Romeny’s but no one seems to be able to look up Obama’s. Sso, therefore he has something to hide and is a closet commie/nazi.

  106. avatar
    pcbbeachgirl52 October 25, 2012 at 6:04 pm #

    Did you read the whole blog? Go back and read the whole thing…it’s a bit more complicated and I’m not saying he’s a commie/nazi only that other people are saying that because you can’t “see” these records he has something to hide. Other posters have noted that they wouldn’t be able get them because they do not exist. But, you have to read the whole post..

  107. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 25, 2012 at 6:54 pm #

    It is often said that records are available for people that actually aren’t available. Some will say that George W. Bush released his college transcripts, but in fact they were leaked illegally.

    In any situation such as this, one must ask for the source of these claims.

    pcbbeachgirl52: It’s the fact that they can’t “see” them, they can look up Hillary’s, Bush Jr and Romeny’s but no one seems to be able to look up Obama’s.

  108. avatar
    Paper October 25, 2012 at 7:54 pm #

    Oh my G-d! I just caught this ep. Oh my G-d! Colbert has always been fearless, but that was…woah!

    Indeed, he was on fire for that entire episode.

    Foreigner, do not watch it. You’ll be apoplectic after the first segment on Trump. You think the people here get sharp with their wit and pointed comments? Ouch. The second segment is perhaps a nice demonstration of concern trolling in action. Made me think of some of Scientist’s ripostes to such trolls. The third segment on r@pe is a furious tour de force. Then he wraps it all up in the interview discussing Rome and tossing off Latin like nothing.

    ASK Esq:
    Stephen Colbert demonstrated very well why those who say there’s no reason for Obama to not go along with Trump’s demand don’t know what they’re talking about.

    The Colbert Report Get More: Colbert Report Full Episodes,Political Humor & Satire Blog,Video Archive

  109. avatar
    Sudoku October 25, 2012 at 8:38 pm #

    I agree, except I would edit out the human part.

    BillTheCat:
    Human garbage. I knew he had nothing. Loser.

  110. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 25, 2012 at 9:56 pm #

    THIS vvvvvv

    Paper: The concern troll question here (for me) is not whether or not someone is a birther, or is hiding their true beliefs or not, but about ignoring or distracting from real enquiry with “concerns.” My answer typically is: Concerned? Get to work. It’s your concern. Get started on that PhD thesis, or mount a real investigation, put together a real piece of reporting. Defending incompetent or mendacious work is not meaningful.

  111. avatar
    foreigner October 25, 2012 at 11:13 pm #

    Obama presumably has a copy of his thesis. His professor said it’s
    just an analysis of the negotiations progress. But it shows how
    intelligent he was/is, how he thinks. Obama also likely discussed
    these things with friends. He enjoyed talking to international friends
    from different cultures. Here the university got copies of the thesis/papers
    and puts them publicly in the library.
    Is Obama heading towards a new world order, a world
    government , but in a different way than Bush ? He wants a world without nukes.
    He considers nuclear terrorism the single biggest threat to USA (11 Apr 2010)
    Democracy is more and more going into a direction where the to-be-elected-
    people don’t say what they really want.Not that Obama were less transparent
    than Romney, but I’m more interested in Obama – internationally.

  112. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 25, 2012 at 11:44 pm #

    It’s not really a thesis, just a senior paper. Do you have all of your college papers? I only have a few.

    foreigner: Obama presumably has a copy of his thesis.

  113. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 25, 2012 at 11:45 pm #

    Colbert got out of character for that one.

    Paper: Oh my G-d! I just caught this ep. Oh my G-d! Colbert has always been fearless, but that was…woah!

    Indeed, he was on fire for that entire episode.

  114. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 26, 2012 at 12:09 am #

    foreigner:
    Obama presumably has a copy of his thesis.

    He may, but this is far from certain—in any case, it is an insignificant indicator of the job he’ll do as president when compared to the job he’s done over the last 4 years.

    His professor said it’s
    just an analysis of the negotiations progress. But it shows how
    intelligent he was/is, how he thinks. Obama also likely discussed
    these things with friends. He enjoyed talking to international friends
    from different cultures.

    It is of some interest—if it still exists, hopefully it will be in his presidential library someday, but it’s not pertinent to the question of this election. In other words, why should anyone care right now?

    Here the university got copies of the thesis/papers
    and puts them publicly in the library.

    Okay, please show us a term paper you wrote in your senior year of college—it shouldn’t be a problem if it is in the library.

    Is Obama heading towards a new world order, a world
    government , but in a different way than Bush ?

    You just threw that in from left field, huh? What has President Obama done that you think is “heading towards a new world order”? What do you mean by the term? If you want to intelligently and honestly discuss something you need to define your terms and present your evidence—and an explanation of why you think that President Obama’s senior thesis is relevant to this would be nice as well…

    He wants a world without nukes.

    Is there something wrong with that?

    He considers nuclear terrorism the single biggest threat to USA (11 Apr 2010)

    Again, is this opinion somehow invalid?

    Democracy is more and more going into a direction where the to-be-elected-
    people don’t say what they really want.

    In what way do you think President Obama isn’t saying what he wants? (And is there anything about which Mitt Romney says what he wants besides to be elected president?)

    Not that Obama were less transparent
    than Romney,

    You’re damning with faint praise here—President Obama might not be as transparent as I would like on some issues, but compared to his predecessors he’s see-through and compared to Mitt Romney he’s downright invisible.

    but I’m more interested in Obama – internationally.

    Well, what do you think about what he’s done internationally in the last four years—do you think that he has been good or bad? Why? How do you think that Romney would do things differently? Why?

    You can ignore my questions and scientist’s questions and the questions and comments of pretty much everyone else here, but all that is going to do is convince everyone reading this that you are nothing more than a concern troll. Is that really what you’re trying to accomplish? If so, well done! :-P

  115. avatar
    John Reilly October 26, 2012 at 12:36 am #

    For Foreigner:

    As a Democratic friend has said:

    Osama Bin Laden is dead.
    GM is alive.

    President Obama has gotten us out of Iraq (where I have been), and in the process of getting us out of Afghanistan (where I have been). Kaddafi is dead and gone. (No comment.)

    If those achievements don’t persuade you, but somehow seeing a paper he wrote at Columbia 20 years ago will assist you in choosing who you would vote for if registered in this country, then you are a concern troll, or worse. There are reasons to vote for Gov. Romney rather than Pres. Obama, but no valid reason depends upon what either did 20 years ago. (Although Misha is still mad about that dog thing.)

  116. avatar
    American Mzungu October 26, 2012 at 9:21 am #

    A paper in a class 30 years ago might be interesting to a biographer trying to understand Obama’s development of character and intellectual thought over time. I thought David Maraniss gave a good first cut at Obama’s early years, and I’ll be interested in his work for years when Obama actually enters the political arena. Of course the work of other scholars will also be interesting.

    Thinking back on papers I wrote in politics courses back in college and in grad school makes me realize how much the world has changed and how my thinking has changed as well.

  117. avatar
    Paper October 26, 2012 at 9:25 am #

    Well, even Trump isn’t asking for this paper. Maybe foreigner should be contacting Trump and getting Trump to do something about it, so that foreigner isn’t just spending his time asking idle questions on a blog.

    I would say, however, that foreigner is entitled to his level of concern, interest or idle questioning. He just shouldn’t be surprised when most other people are nonplussed, or even when they think poorly of or mock some of his comments or questions. He shouldn’t be surprised that what he wants to happen doesn’t happen.

    People can want what they want. Voters can vote for or against anyone for any reason, including silly reasons. That is their right. Of course, foreigner is not a voter here, so he doesn’t even get that satisfaction.

    I like this comment on the Trump brand of commentary: “Comedian Andy Borowitz tweeted: ‘Attention parents: if you give your children even the tiniest bit of attention now, maybe they won’t grow up to be Donald Trump.’” Something also applicable perhaps to our field of “expertise,” internet commentary.

    John Reilly:

    If those achievements don’t persuade you, but somehow seeing a paper he wrote at Columbia 20 years ago will assist you in choosing who you would vote for if registered in this country, then you are a concern troll, or worse.There are reasons to vote for Gov. Romney rather than Pres. Obama, but no valid reason depends upon what either did 20 years ago.(Although Misha is still mad about that dog thing.)

  118. avatar
    Paper October 26, 2012 at 9:28 am #

    Exactly.

    American Mzungu:
    A paper in a class 30 years ago might be interesting to a biographer trying to understand Obama’s development of character and intellectual thought over time.I thought David Maraniss gave a good first cut at Obama’s early years, and I’ll be interested in his work for years when Obama actually enters the political arena.Of course the work of other scholars will also be interesting.

    Thinking back on papers I wrote in politics courses back in college and in grad school makes me realize how much the world has changed and how my thinking has changed as well.

  119. avatar
    Paper October 26, 2012 at 9:30 am #

    I thought I saw some personal fury or anger slipping through, along with the comedy, in all three of those segments.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Colbert got out of character for that one.

  120. avatar
    foreigner October 26, 2012 at 10:26 am #

    this is the chance I’d been waiting for …
    time to initialize the process that will lead to a world government
    Obama is the man

  121. avatar
    foreigner October 26, 2012 at 10:28 am #

    slartibartfast wrote:

    >foreigner:
    >> Obama presumably has a copy of his thesis.
    >He may, but this is far from certain – in any case, it is an insignificant
    >indicator of the job he’ll do as president when compared to
    >the job he’s done over the last 4 years.

    how can you know ? He wants to get his message out: election campaign.
    I think his books and papers would be the best way to do that.
    He can add a commentary,2012-foreword,update.

    >>His professor said it’s just an analysis of the negotiations
    >>progress. But it shows how intelligent he was/is, how he thinks.
    >>Obama also likely discussed these things with friends.
    >>He enjoyed talking to international friends from different cultures.
    >It is of some interest – if it still exists, hopefully it will be
    >in his presidential library someday, but it’s not pertinent to the
    >question of this election.In other words, why should anyone care right now?

    why should anyone have cared in 1933 about Hitler’s 1924 book ?
    It could show his ideals, attitudes. Or whether it was just only for
    the University requirements.

    >Here the university got copies of the thesis/papers
    >and puts them publicly in the library.
    >Okay, please show us a term paper you wrote in your
    >senior year of college – it shouldn’t be a problem if it is
    >in the library.

    no colleges here, high-school (Abitur) papers are secret, I could never
    get mine, although they first had said I could get it after 10 years.
    The final University paper,(diplom,not phd) is here:
    http://katalog.ub.uni-bielefeld.de/cgi-bin/titel.cgi?katkey=1166402&teil=&teil2=&start=1&pagesize=10&sess=789ec4c90ed2da39d7d93a7b07712094&query=stertenbrink&vr=1&pagesize=10
    http://www.setbb.com/fluwiki2/viewtopic.php?t=1392&mforum=fluwiki2
    you could see how in 1979 as today I felt the urge to make thinks
    (almost)computer-readable,strictly formal, computer verifyable.

    >>Is Obama heading towards a new world order, a world
    >>government , but in a different way than Bush ?
    >You just threw that in from left field, huh? What has President Obama done
    >that you think is heading towards a new world order ?

    I explained it. His preferrence to discuss with foreign students,
    his frequent traveling the world. His ingeritage, his book.
    His interest in international nuclear reduction treaties. He views
    nuclear terrorism as the single biggest threat to USA. This is an international problem.
    He’d been “organiser”, he wanted to join people, form coalitions.
    As Harold Washington in 1984 when he joined.
    He sees in the future, he has a feeling for the global problems,
    requirements,chances that are coming in the long run.

    >What do you mean by the term? If you want to intelligently and honestly
    >discuss something you need to define your terms and present your
    >evidence and an explanation of why you think that President
    >Obama’s senior thesis is relevant to this would be nice as well

    it was the time when he decided to go into politics rather than
    finance/brokerage. His thesis-like-paper were irrelevant to his
    alternative brokerage future.

    >>He wants a world without nukes.
    >Is there something wrong with that?

    in the contrary. Is it your general expectation of opposition,
    of “birtherism” or conservatism that let’s you ask this ?

    >>He considers nuclear terrorism the single biggest threat
    >>to USA (11 Apr 2010)
    >Again, is this opinion somehow invalid?

    how can an opinion be invalid

    >Democracy is more and more going into a direction where the to-
    >be-elected-people don’t say what they really want.
    >In what way do you think President Obama isn’t saying what he wants?

    in the way described above.And btw. I didn’t say Obama were doing
    this more than others, you now mentioned Obama, suggesting that.

    >(And is there anything about which Mitt Romney says what he wants
    >besides to be elected president ?)

    I haven’t yet found any such longterm, almost philosophical statements
    by Romney. He is more shortterm, fix the economy,budget, even “flipflops”
    within a few years

    >>Not that Obama were less transparent than Romney,
    >You’re damning with faint praise here President
    >Obama might not be as transparent as I would like on some issues,
    >but compared to his predecessors he’s see-through and compared
    >to Mitt Romney he’s downright invisible.

    you exaggerate. In his book he advocates self-censorship, that’s
    how he won against Keyes.

    >but I am more interested in Obama internationally.
    >Well, what do you think about what
    >he’s done internationally in the last four years do you think
    >that he has been good or bad ? Why ? How do you think that Romney
    >would do things differently ? Why ?

    Nato,world government,global warming,pandemics,USA-China relations

    >You can ignore my questions and scientist’s questions and the
    >questions and comments of pretty much everyone else here,

    why do you think your questions and/oe scientist’s are more important
    than all the others ? So far I have little evidence for that

    >but all that is going to do is
    >convince everyone reading this that you are nothing more than
    >a concern troll. Is that really what you’re trying to accomplish?
    >If so, well done!

    just trying to improve discussion here and in internet/USA in general.
    I.e. the current rivalty Dems vs. Reps
    And it looks to me like that’s what bothers you. You are seeking for
    confrontation, me cooperation.

  122. avatar
    Paper October 26, 2012 at 11:04 am #

    Such a strange comment. Particularly as President Obama is so not the man for such an agenda. Getting snarkily ironic?

    foreigner:
    this is the chance I’d been waiting for …
    time to initialize the process that will lead to a world government
    Obama is the man

  123. avatar
    J.D. Reed October 26, 2012 at 1:26 pm #

    Tangentially connected to Trump’s latest:
    The e-rumor that shows a purported Obama student ID for his Columbia days reveals a 15-digt ID number for a student allegedly going by the name Barry Soetoro, as well as labelling “Soetoro” a foreign student.
    What’s interesting is that at several sites you can find an on-line copy of a purported 1998 student ID of one Thomas Lugert, with the same 15-digit number.
    For those with mathematical skills and training, a 15-digit number in in the hundreds of TRILLIONS. So calculate the odds of two students 15 years apart being assigned the same 15-digit ID. It would be like hitting a 15-digit lottery number. The odds against woould be 999 trillion, 999 billioin, 999 million 999 thousand, 999.
    So the only logical conclusion is one is a photoshop of the other. So which one? Well, Mr. Lugert maintains a personal website — http://www.lugert-online.de/Columbia_University/columbia_university.html — on which he shows his Columbia ID, with the same number as “Soetoro’s”. Unless the Lugert website and student ID copy are bogus, there is only one logical conclusion.

    Oh, another thing about the Lugert ID: It identifies him merely as a student, not a foreign student. Yet he was then, and is now, a German. If Columbia identified students as foreigners on their ID cards, why not Mr. Lugert?

  124. avatar
    The Magic M October 26, 2012 at 2:24 pm #

    J.D. Reed: So the only logical conclusion is one is a photoshop of the other

    No, you see, Barry Soetoro stole Mr Lugert’s student ID of course. ;) Makes perfect sense… to a birther.

  125. avatar
    gorefan October 26, 2012 at 2:39 pm #

    J.D. Reed: Columbia days reveals a 15-digt ID number

    Back in the 70s and early 80s a lot of colleges used Social Security numbers as the student ID.

  126. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund October 26, 2012 at 3:04 pm #

    Heck, I graduated in 2000 with my SSN as my StuID.

  127. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 26, 2012 at 3:47 pm #

    A very bad practice by the way. My Student ID in 1968 was only 4 digits (fairly new school).

    gorefan: Back in the 70s and early 80s a lot of colleges used Social Security numbers as the student ID.

  128. avatar
    Paper October 26, 2012 at 4:03 pm #

    International is not the same as world government. Again, you spend a lot of time nit-picking words (such as “no one” being too absolute, or along Slartibartfast here how can he *know* vs. his seemingly likely opinion). But where it really counts, you have at least started to gloss over key distinctions (if you haven’t been doing so along).

    One of my birthers makes the same mistake and has threatened my life in part over his mistake. Many of the new world order conspiracists make this same error. Anyone interested in international cooperation, or working to make a better world, instantly is considered part of the New World Order. I see this conflation happen all the time in my face from people I know.

    You have said many times you are not a birther. You may want to avoid their mistakes.

    foreigner:

    >>Is Obama heading towards a new world order, a world>>government , but in a different way than Bush ?>You just threw that in from left field, huh? What has President Obama done>that you think is heading towards a new world order ?

    I explained it. His preferrence to discuss with foreign students,
    his frequent traveling the world. His ingeritage, his book.
    His interest in international nuclear reduction treaties. He views
    nuclear terrorism as the single biggest threat to USA. This is an international problem.
    He’d been “organiser”, he wanted to join people, form coalitions.
    As Harold Washington in 1984 when he joined.
    He sees in the future, he has a feeling for the global problems,
    requirements,chances that are coming in the long run.

  129. avatar
    Paper October 26, 2012 at 6:26 pm #

    As for cooperation, I’ve been there, done that. It net me a death threat. After a few years of this stuff, my experience makes clear there is no such thing as a real, cooperative birther. If they are truly cooperative, as opposed to faking cooperation, they are not a birther. That’s not just a side effect. That is part of the definition of the term. Anyone who wants to cooperate to find the truth would have discovered the truth long ago, that the President was born here and is eligible for his office.

    If you want to cooperate with the merely birther-curious, that might be possible. Indeed, the only example of actual cooperation in the array of birthers I personally know was with someone merely birther curious, who in the end gave it up. But that was a result of the Long Form. No halfway or quarter-way reasonable reservations left.

    Personally, I don’t see you improving conversation. Mileage may vary. I just think you may be giving your intentions too much credit vs. your actual posts. Just my three cents.

    foreigner:

    just trying to improve discussion here and in internet/USA in general.
    I.e. the current rivalty Dems vs. Reps
    And it looks to me like that’s what bothers you. You are seeking for
    confrontation, me cooperation.

  130. avatar
    LW October 26, 2012 at 7:49 pm #

    Scientist: Kerry had [his] college transcripts LEAKED-that means someone in the college gave them to a reporter WITHOUT permission.

    FWIW, my understanding is that Kerry’s transcripts became public because they were attached to his military records as part of a promotion review; the records in turn were made public via a FOIA request. Clearly a procedural fail on the part of whoever responded to the FOIA action.

  131. avatar
    misha marinsky October 27, 2012 at 2:13 am #

    M Heuss: This is, of course, one of the funniest things I have read in years.

    Thank you. I’ll be here all week.

  132. avatar
    misha marinsky October 27, 2012 at 2:21 am #

    pcbbeachgirl52: I know of a few people that absolutely believe that his transcripts will show his communist connection

    I am a communist. Don’t you believe in free speech?

    Long live Lenin!

  133. avatar
    misha marinsky October 27, 2012 at 2:31 am #

    Slartibartfast: Guenter (thanks for letting me know “foreigner” was “gsgs”, by the way…)

    He may be a Guenter, but he’s no Guenter Grass.

  134. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 27, 2012 at 4:22 am #

    Your lack of ability to format your replies (in addition to the content of said replies) does not speak well of your competence. I know that part of the reason you are poorly understood is that you are writing in a foreign language, but that doesn’t explain why you can’t use the word wrap that just about every freaking text editor in the world has… I would also point out that if you stated your opinion more forcefully and coherently (instead of in the “concern troll” manner of throwing out vague semi-leading statements), I don’t think you would have as much of a translation problem. You’d still have the naivety problem, though…

    foreigner:
    slartibartfast wrote:

    >foreigner:>> Obama presumably has a copy of his thesis.

    You have no cause to presume this to be true.

    >He may, but this is far from certain – in any case, it is an insignificant>indicator of the job he’ll do as president when compared to>the job he’s done over the last 4 years.

    how can you know ?

    If you understood what I said, you would know that I said (a) we don’t know; and (b) it doesn’t matter. Therefore, your question does not make sense.

    He wants to get his message out: election campaign.

    Yes, and his message is about what he’s done for THE LAST FOUR YEARS. If you are going to comment on another country’s elections, don’t you think you should educate yourself as to what the campaigns have been doing? Would you take me seriously if I started talking about German elections without bothering to learn anything about them?

    I think his books and papers would be the best way to do that.

    This is more evidence of the childish nature of your analysis. Why would anyone think that something written decades ago is vitally important as compared to what a person has done for the last four years in a job they are asking to be allowed to continue? Are you really that naive?

    He can add a commentary,2012-foreword,update.

    There is no good reason for him to do this—in other words: doing so would not win him any votes.

    >>His professor said it’s just an analysis of the negotiations>>progress. But it shows how intelligent he was/is, how he thinks.>>Obama also likely discussed these things with friends.>>He enjoyed talking to international friends from different cultures.>

    It is of some interest – if it still exists, hopefully it will be>in his presidential library someday, but it’s not pertinent to the>question of this election.In other words, why should anyone care right now?

    why should anyone have cared in 1933 about Hitler’s 1924 book ?

    A German comparing President Obama to Hitler—do you have any idea how offensive that is? Not to mention your fallacious analogy.

    It could show his ideals, attitudes.

    Because people reveal their souls in essays written for college classes? (that was sarcasm, by the way)

    Or whether it was just only for
    the University requirements.

    Why is there any reason to even think he would have written the essay if not for a class?

    >Here the university got copies of the thesis/papers>and puts them publicly in the library.>Okay, please show us a term paper you wrote in your>senior year of college – it shouldn’t be a problem if it is>in the library.

    no colleges here, high-school (Abitur) papers are secret, I could never
    get mine, although they first had said I could get it after 10 years.
    The final University paper,(diplom,not phd) is here:
    http://katalog.ub.uni-bielefeld.de/cgi-bin/titel.cgi?katkey=1166402&teil=&teil2=&start=1&pagesize=10&sess=789ec4c90ed2da39d7d93a7b07712094&query=stertenbrink&vr=1&pagesize=10
    http://www.setbb.com/fluwiki2/viewtopic.php?t=1392&mforum=fluwiki2
    you could see how in 1979 as today I felt the urge to make thinks
    (almost)computer-readable,strictly formal, computer verifyable.

    Until you allow an independent questioned document examiner to verify its veracity, why should we not assume that it is a forgery? This seems to be the sort of standard you started with for President Obama—why should you be treated differently? You probably killed the person who wrote Ring Toplogies of Skew Fields and stole his identity. Besides, the lack of rigor and logic in your comments doesn’t, at least to me, suggest much in the way of mathematical maturity…

    >>Is Obama heading towards a new world order, a world>>government , but in a different way than Bush ?>

    You just threw that in from left field, huh?

    What has President Obama done>that you think is heading towards a new world order?

    I explained it. His preferrence to discuss with foreign students,

    He had friends that were foreign. He had friends that were not. I was at a conference today on computational infrastructure and in one of the keynote addresses the speaker showed data that teams made up of people from different countries are more successful. President Obama was demonstrating good practices, but I hardly think that this is evidence of his desire for one-world government.

    his frequent traveling the world.

    Really? Anyone who travels internationally and lives abroad for a few years as a child is a part of the New World Order… Who knew?

    His ingeritage,

    I assume you meant “heritage”—why do you assume that his heritage came from the father he hardly knew (other than through the myths his mother told him to give him a father he could be proud of) rather than the extraordinary woman who raised him? You seem to have swallowed a bunch of birther propaganda hook, line, and sinker…

    his book.

    I wasn’t aware he professed a desire to cede US sovereignty in his writings.

    His interest in international nuclear reduction treaties.

    Your standard of evidence here seems to be very similar to that of the birthers—why is that?

    He views
    nuclear terrorism as the single biggest threat to USA.

    Again, not sufficient to sustain your implication.

    This is an international problem.
    He’d been “organiser”, he wanted to join people, form coalitions.
    As Harold Washington in 1984 when he joined.
    He sees in the future, he has a feeling for the global problems,
    requirements,chances that are coming in the long run.

    All of which makes me more convinced that your analysis is naive.

    >What do you mean by the term? If you want to intelligently and honestly>discuss something you need to define your terms and present your>evidence and an explanation of why you think that President>Obama’s senior thesis is relevant to this would be nice as well

    it was the time when he decided to go into politics rather than
    finance/brokerage. His thesis-like-paper were irrelevant to his
    alternative brokerage future.

    Another trait you seem to share with birthers is a wild overestimation of the significance of things.

    >>He wants a world without nukes.>Is there something wrong with that?

    in the contrary. Is it your general expectation of opposition,
    of “birtherism” or conservatism that let’s you ask this ?

    No, it is the conclusions you are drawing that are in no way supported by the facts that you mention.

    >>He considers nuclear terrorism the single biggest threat>>to USA (11 Apr 2010)>

    Again, is this opinion somehow invalid?

    how can an opinion be invalid

    Your comment seemed to suggest as much.

    >Democracy is more and more going into a direction where the to->be-elected-people don’t say what they really want.>

    In what way do you think President Obama isn’t saying what he wants?

    in the way described above.And btw. I didn’t say Obama were doing
    this more than others, you now mentioned Obama, suggesting that.

    All I am suggesting is that the quality of your analysis is poor.

    >(And is there anything about which Mitt Romney says what he wants>besides to be elected president ?)

    I haven’t yet found any such longterm, almost philosophical statements
    by Romney. He is more shortterm, fix the economy,budget, even “flipflops”
    within a few years

    So you think that Mittens is going to fix the economy with a plan that is mathematically impossible? Or that he will be the first modern Republican to lower the deficit (let alone the debt)? Did you know that the deficit has gone down in each year of President Obama’s term?

    >>Not that Obama were less transparent than Romney,>

    You’re damning with faint praise here President>Obama might not be as transparent as I would like on some issues,>but compared to his predecessors he’s see-through and compared>to Mitt Romney he’s downright invisible.

    you exaggerate. In his book he advocates self-censorship, that’s
    how he won against Keyes.

    I’m just going to assume that you’re talking out of the wrong orifice here…

    >but I am more interested in Obama internationally.

    >Well, what do you think about what>he’s done internationally in the last four years do you think>that he has been good or bad ? Why ? How do you think that Romney>would do things differently ? Why ?

    Nato,world government,global warming,pandemics,USA-China relations

    Turkeys, kumquat, supervolcano, anthrax, the Ryder Cup (this is a bunch of non-sequiturs in response to your unresponsive answer.

    >You can ignore my questions and scientist’s questions and the>questions and comments of pretty much everyone else here,

    why do you think your questions and/oe scientist’s are more important
    than all the others ?

    I don’t—but not addressing other people’s arguments is a sign of bad faith in a debate.

    So far I have little evidence for that

    In other words, you can’t support the straw man you just made—shocking!

    >but all that is going to do is>convince everyone reading this that you are nothing more than>a concern troll. Is that really what you’re trying to accomplish?>If so, well done!

    just trying to improve discussion here and in internet/USA in general.
    I.e. the current rivalty Dems vs. Reps
    And it looks to me like that’s what bothers you. You are seeking for
    confrontation,

    No, I’d like to see competence—or at least good faith.

    me cooperation.

    I do not think that word means what you think it means.

  135. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 27, 2012 at 9:42 am #

    I always thought that this was intentional, to stand out, call attention, and mildly annoy. I don’t think you can connect a Commodore 64 to the Internet, but I could be wrong.

    Slartibartfast: Your lack of ability to format your replies (in addition to the content of said replies) does not speak well of your competence.

  136. avatar
    misha marinsky October 27, 2012 at 9:56 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I don’t think you can connect a Commodore 64 to the Internet, but I could be wrong.

    It cannot be done.

  137. avatar
    misha marinsky October 27, 2012 at 10:08 am #

    The Magic M: A proper German translation of “concern troll” would be “Betroffenheitsheuchler” or “Besorgnisvortäuscher”.

    Fahrvergnügen

  138. avatar
    misha marinsky October 27, 2012 at 10:10 am #

    pcbbeachgirl52: I didn’t go to college

    Attention Rick Santorum.

  139. avatar
    misha marinsky October 27, 2012 at 10:13 am #

    pcbbeachgirl52: I’m not saying he’s a commie/nazi

    Yes you are. You just did.

  140. avatar
    misha marinsky October 27, 2012 at 10:15 am #

    pcbbeachgirl52: I’m not saying he’s a commie/nazi

    What is the difference between communism and fascism?

  141. avatar
    misha marinsky October 27, 2012 at 10:19 am #

    John Reilly: There are reasons to vote for Gov. Romney rather than Pres. Obama

    Google “Mormon child abuse.”

    Google “Mormon child bride.”

    Google “Mormon polygamy 21st century.”

  142. avatar
    misha marinsky October 27, 2012 at 10:35 am #

    John Reilly: There are reasons to vote for Gov. Romney rather than Pres. Obama

    SLC deeded public road to Mormon church, which then restricted the area to Mormons:

    http://www.acluutah.org/msappeal.htm

  143. avatar
    misha marinsky October 27, 2012 at 10:38 am #

    John Reilly: There are reasons to vote for Gov. Romney rather than Pres. Obama

    Mormon-Owned NBC Affiliate Refuses to Air Gay-Friendly Sitcom The New Normal

    The NBC affiliate also does not broadcast SNL.

    http://gawker.com/5938094/mormon+owned-nbc-affiliate-refuses-to-air-gay+friendly-sitcom-the-new-normal

  144. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund October 27, 2012 at 11:47 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I don’t think you can connect a Commodore 64 to the Internet, but I could be wrong.

    Actually, you can! Takes some additional hardware and software, though.

  145. avatar
    misha marinsky October 27, 2012 at 11:51 am #

    John Reilly: There are reasons to vote for Gov. Romney rather than Pres. Obama, but no valid reason depends upon what either did 20 years ago.

    Where did Mitt Romney bury the girl he strangled in 1987?

  146. avatar
    misha marinsky October 27, 2012 at 11:55 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I don’t think you can connect a Commodore 64 to the Internet, but I could be wrong.

    W. Kevin Vicklund: Actually, you can!Takes some additional hardware and software, though.

    It would be cheaper to buy a new computer, and give better results.

  147. avatar
    misha marinsky October 27, 2012 at 12:37 pm #

    John Reilly: There are reasons to vote for Gov. Romney rather than Pres. Obama, but no valid reason depends upon what either did 20 years ago.

    Ezra Benson was Eisenhower’s Ag sec., and a Mormon elder. When asked why the Mormon church refused black members, he replied “Darkies are good people, and they have their place.”

    He also called forced integration “a communist plot.”

  148. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 27, 2012 at 1:08 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I always thought that this was intentional, to stand out, call attention, and mildly annoy. I don’t think you can connect a Commodore 64 to the Internet, but I could be wrong.

    It is indeed possible. http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/classic-tech/surf-the-web-on-your-commodore-64/182

  149. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 27, 2012 at 5:27 pm #

    Geunter’s inability to format was discussed at John Woodman’s site and the cause seems to be technical ineptness regarding his text editor and the translation sites he’s using, but he never seemed willing to try to improve his methodology—I don’t understand why he wants his comments to appear inept, but it seems that he does. On the whole, connecting a Commodore 64 to the internet seems much more plausible…

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I always thought that this was intentional, to stand out, call attention, and mildly annoy. I don’t think you can connect a Commodore 64 to the Internet, but I could be wrong.

  150. avatar
    foreigner October 28, 2012 at 4:26 am #

    formatting is bad here(IMO). I cannot easily edit offline, include quote-marks, i.e. nested quoted.
    I think old Usenet-quoting was superior. But even if it were not , that people permanently attack
    me for different formatting (just the Obots, fogbow,slarti,RC – in 15 years of much internet
    postings I _never_ had it elsewhere) shows some intolerance.
    I did try to use long lines in several posts without quoting, or when I replying directly online
    in short posts. But when you download it, you have to cut the lines anyway before editing.
    Actually I wrote a program years back to do it automatically and include the Usenet “>” quotes.
    Slartibartfast is mainly just trying to be provocative and often wrong. I will no longer reply
    in length to his long posts

  151. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 28, 2012 at 1:46 pm #

    Geunter,

    If what you say about me was true, you could point out instances where I’ve been wrong (besides ones where I’ve already corrected myself like you linked upthread)—so you’re making an accusation against me that you can’t back up and immediately saying that you wont even try to support it. That, in my opinion, is extremely duplicitous and cowardly behavior. Every accusation I’ve leveled at you has been accompanied by an explanation of my reasoning or clearly designated as my opinion and I have always been willing to listen to and address any counterargument you or anyone else might make. If I’m wrong on a point, call me out on it (specifically) along with evidence or a rational argument regarding why I’m wrong. If you don’t do this, the obvious conclusion is that you were making a false accusation that you cannot support—one of the most odious of the birther tactics. The burden of proof is on the accuser—I believe I have met mine (and I’m willing to address any issue that anyone would like to substantively contest—meaning give an argument regarding how I am wrong rather than whine about how mean I am while making baseless smears), while you have utterly failed to even attempt to defend yourself in good faith. You have also pointed out that I have, in the past, corrected myself when I’ve been wrong—specifically in respect to statements I have made regarding you. Therefore it’s hard to see why you would hesitate to clear your good name by explaining to the others here why my statements are crap. When, instead, you make allegations against me without providing any support for them, it clearly suggests that you are incapable of doing so and demonstrates that you are willing to use cowardly and dishonest tactics to try and salvage your credibility on this site and damage mine. If nothing else, the use of these tactics here (if you expected them to work) is another example of your naivety.

    Just to make my major assertions regarding you clear (I am assuming that you wont reply to this—after all, it’s certainly “long” compared to most of the posts on this thread…), here is a list of my main points.

    1. You are not a birther

    2. You are a concern troll

    3. Your analysis is often juvenile and naive

    4. You use dishonest and cowardly tactics

    5. You use tactics frequently employed by birthers (not surprising given 4)

    6. You are unwilling to debate in good faith

    I have provided evidence to support all of these points and stand willing to debate any or all of them in good faith as well as honestly consider any evidence which might falsify them. You can either address me and falsify #6 by engaging in honest discussion or, since I’ve met my burden to support my claims and opinions, implicitly concede that my assertions are substantively correct. Assuming you do as you said and cower in fear of the big bad bully Slarti, I will no longer be addressing you—I will be dissecting and discussing your comments (and what I believe they imply about you) with the other posters here. Do what you want, Geunter, but I think you’ll find that an unwillingness to debate in good faith (especially coupled with cowardly and dishonest tactics often favored by birthers) will not serve you well here.

    It’s amazing to me that you’ve posted so much here and at John’s site and completely failed to understand (or apparently even notice) the impressive integrity that both Doc C and Mr. Woodman constantly display. Why do you think that is?

    foreigner: Slartibartfast is mainly just trying to be provocative and often wrong. I will no longer reply
    in length to his long posts

  152. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 28, 2012 at 2:09 pm #

    I forgot to include your formatting amongst the opinions regarding your character and abilities that I’ve expressed:

    foreigner: formatting is bad here(IMO).

    I doubt your naive opinions are significant to anyone here.

    I cannot easily edit offline, include quote-marks, i.e. nested quoted.

    This is your deficiency as none of these things are particularly hard to do and there are many tools which would help easily available (they are called text editors—you should really try one out…).

    I think old Usenet-quoting was superior.

    Again, evidence of your naivety (not that you don’t have the right to hold this opinion, but I’ve got the right to give my opinion as well…).

    But even if it were not , that people permanently attack
    me for different formatting (just the Obots, fogbow,slarti,RC

    It is, in my opinion, disrespectful of your audience to make it more difficult for them to read your comments because you are too lazy to use a reasonably formatting style—especially when, as you frequently did at John’s, you ask people to evaluate your technical arguments. This is, in my opinion, an easy thing for you to correct (especially since any willingness to try would likely be met with helpful suggestions) and your lack of any interest in even attempting to address it seems to me to speak volumes.

    – in 15 years of much internet
    postings I _never_ had it elsewhere) shows some intolerance.

    If it weren’t for your other failings you might get cut more slack, but in light of them it provides corroborating evidence as to your character (or lack thereof).

    I did try to use long lines in several posts without quoting, or when I replying directly online
    in short posts. But when you download it, you have to cut the lines anyway before editing.

    “When you download it”—what do you mean? When you copy and paste from comments into a translation program? Into a text editor? What are you using that doesn’t have word wrap and why do you “have to cut the lines”?

    Actually I wrote a program years back to do it automatically and include the Usenet “>” quotes.

    In other words, you are capable of writing a software tool that helps you to format in a modern way, but you still use an obsolete one. Why is that?

  153. avatar
    MN-Skeptic October 28, 2012 at 5:45 pm #

    If you listen to Trump’s interview on Letterman, it’s obvious that the only thing Trump is “concerned” about is where Obama was born. He somehow thinks that a college transcript will state place of birth. He promotes the idea that the American Public still doesn’t know where Obama was born.

    Trump is pandering to the birthers and is doing nothing less than calling Obama and the government of Hawaii flat out liars. Trump doesn’t care about college papers. He doesn’t care about the courses Obama took or the grades he received. His sole interest is locating some evidence that Obama was born somewhere else than Hawaii. The birthers have apparently convinced him that the evidence exists somewhere in the college records or the passport files.

    After all Obama and the government of Hawaii has done, it’s insulting to be called liars. Trump and the birthers should be ridiculed. I’m glad to see that that’s the approach Obama is taking!

  154. avatar
    liz October 29, 2012 at 9:36 am #

    Mr trump since ur so into the president ,whats up cant u see hes not into u maybe u should try offer romney the 5 millon to sleep w/ him and his 2 dollar cut so u can grow some hair on that funny head of yours and u have the perfect size of mouth to hold romney ,ryan,murdock,sununn andstill have space for colbert offer to drop his BALLS in your mouth before 5 pm oct 31

  155. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 29, 2012 at 4:08 pm #

    I have taken the pledge to ignore Donald Trump.

    http://leftaction.com/action/i-pledge-ignore-donald-trump

  156. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 29, 2012 at 4:44 pm #

    I’ve taken to calling him “The Dolan”.
    Anyone who follows tasteless internet memes will get the reference, but for those who do not, “Dolan” is this horribly deformed looking knock-off of Donald Duck. I think Trump…fits the bill! http://yeahbutton.com/

  157. avatar
    Majority Will October 29, 2012 at 5:05 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I have taken the pledge to ignore Donald Trump.

    http://leftaction.com/action/i-pledge-ignore-donald-trump

    Good idea.

  158. avatar
    misha marinsky October 29, 2012 at 6:36 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I have taken the pledge to ignore Donald Trump.

    http://leftaction.com/action/i-pledge-ignore-donald-trump

    That’s fine, but don’t ignore the welfare of the badger on his head.

  159. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 29, 2012 at 8:38 pm #

    misha marinsky: That’s fine, but don’t ignore the welfare of the badger on his head.

    That badger knew the risks.

  160. avatar
    Underdog October 30, 2012 at 11:57 pm #

    Twitter fights back…
    https://twitter.com/dogboner/status/263317165304856579/photo/1

  161. avatar
    LW October 31, 2012 at 1:17 am #

    Heh.

    “Let’s make the SOB deny it.”

  162. avatar
    The Magic M October 31, 2012 at 5:23 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I don’t think you can connect a Commodore 64 to the Internet

    Yes, you can. Someone even made it run a web server:

    http://www.c64web.com/

    “This site is hosted from a unmodified Commodore 64 built in 1982″