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The occasional open thread: Tra la!

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Tra la.

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151 Responses to The occasional open thread: Tra la!

  1. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG November 16, 2012 at 12:08 am #

    So, what do you guys think of Barney Fife wanting an invitation to the White House?
    I mean after all his “investigative” shenanigans, does he honestly thing that Obama wants to be in the same room with him?

  2. avatar
    G November 16, 2012 at 4:37 am #

    Yeah, that is just bizarre. More proof that Arpaio is nothing but a sad little attention whore.

    Obama would be wise to completely ignore him.

    Andrew Vrba, PmG:
    So, what do you guys think of Barney Fife wanting an invitation to the White House?
    I mean after all his “investigative” shenanigans, does he honestly thing that Obama wants to be in the same room with him?

  3. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 16, 2012 at 9:37 am #

    Fellowship of the Minds added to Bad list below;

    https://fellowshipofminds.wordpress.com

  4. avatar
    The Magic M November 16, 2012 at 9:46 am #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: I mean after all his “investigative” shenanigans, does he honestly thing that Obama wants to be in the same room with him?

    Next up on the CCP findings: “he smells Kenyan”

  5. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG November 16, 2012 at 10:22 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Fellowship of the Minds added to Bad list below;

    https://fellowshipofminds.wordpress.com

    Thanks, Doc! I was running out of funny shenanigans to read.

  6. avatar
    J.D. Reed November 16, 2012 at 10:29 am #

    I simply can’t believe Zullo is clinging to the executive-order-sealing-his-records meme. Anybody with minimal search skills and who’s reasonably well educated can find all presidential executive orders on line, back to FDR’s days. The fact that Zullo can’t, or won’t, or is simply dissembling, speaks volumes about his skills and/or ethics as a detective. And of course, it speaks volumes about this sheriff that he would collude with Zullo.

  7. avatar
    misha marinsky November 16, 2012 at 10:44 am #

    J.D. Reed: I simply can’t believe Zullo is clinging to the executive-order-sealing-his-records meme.

    Zullo thinks along the lines of used car odometer tampering.

  8. avatar
    misha marinsky November 16, 2012 at 10:47 am #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: So, what do you guys think of Barney Fife wanting an invitation to the White House? – I mean after all his “investigative” shenanigans, does he honestly thing that Obama wants to be in the same room with him?

    Same for Bibi. They insult Obama on TV, and then want an invitation.

    Schmucks.

  9. avatar
    donna November 16, 2012 at 12:24 pm #

    VT – Paige v Obama – Dismissed – POOR MARIO

    Another one bites the dust… And the fact that Paige proposed much of the Apuzzo failed arguments is particularly sweet.

    A Vermont judge has thrown out a lawsuit brought by a former Republican U.S. Senate hopeful who claimed President Barack Obama was improperly elected in 2008 because he is not a “natural born citizen.”

    Judge Robert Bent, in a seven-page decision filed Wednesday at Vermont Superior Court in Montpelier, ruled that the case brought by H. Brooke Paige of the town of Washington was improperly filed in state court instead of federal court, but lacked merit anyway.

    “Mr. Paige’s lawsuit, interesting as it is for its extensive historical analysis, has no viability because he has no standing and the court has no jurisdiction,” Bent wrote. “It is dismissed in its entirety.”

    Vermont judge tosses ‘natural born citizen’ anti-Obama lawsuit

    http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2012311150036&nclick_check=1

    And Ankeny keeps on giving…

    Bent cited a 2009 decision by an Indiana court that addressed a similar claim and concluded the natural-born-citizen challenge to Obama’s claim on the presidency lacked merit.

    “The expression ‘natural born citizen’ is not dependent on the nationality of the parents but reflects the status of a person born into citizenship instead of having citizenship subsequently bestowed,” Bent wrote.

    http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2012/11/16/vt-paige-v-obama-dismissed/

  10. avatar
    G November 16, 2012 at 1:18 pm #

    Has anyone noticed that there seems to be a connection between Mario having some loser turkey of a case about to be smacked down in court and Mario popping up at this site to spew and blather in useless hissy fits???

    It is the saddest display of honey boo-boo style attention whore trolling I’ve ever seen.

    donna: Another one bites the dust… And the fact that Paige proposed much of the Apuzzo failed arguments is particularly sweet.

  11. avatar
    donna November 16, 2012 at 2:31 pm #

    G:

    hmmm good point – didn’t think of that one – the other night i had a “conversation” with him about rubio and now i read that the new tea party darling, ted cruz, thinks he can be president – he was born in canada

    “The Constitution requires that one be a natural-born citizen, and my mother was a U.S. citizen when I was born,”

    i hope the birthers are as fierce with others as they were with obama (wink wink)

  12. avatar
    Sunny Side November 16, 2012 at 5:37 pm #

    Hmmm…

    I was just reading this article, which starts with this sentence:

    “Psychopaths are everywhere. You might even be reading the words of one right now! But how can you tell?”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-dutton/boss-psychopath_b_2083799.html

    G:
    Has anyone noticed that there seems to be a connection between Mario having some loser turkey of a case about to be smacked down in court and Mario popping up at this site to spew and blather in useless hissy fits???

    It is the saddest display of honey boo-boo style attention whore trolling I’ve ever seen.

  13. avatar
    JPotter November 16, 2012 at 6:19 pm #

    G: Has anyone noticed that there seems to be a connection between Mario having some loser turkey of a case about to be smacked down in court and Mario popping up at this site to spew and blather in useless hissy fits???

    You think his time would be better spent in last minute preparation? Revising and refining statements, questions, answers?

    The baseless and hubris and confidence of the ignorant cannot be overestimated! ;)

  14. avatar
    jdkinpa November 16, 2012 at 10:20 pm #

    I just ran across several stories of a person who was apparently even to crazy for the Georga TEA Party, if that is even possible. I’d never heard of this guy, Field Searcy, until I read about him at Huffpo, Raw story and Mother Jones. Seems he was quite a popular guy with the Republicans down in Georgia. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/11/15/georgia-lawmakers-meet-over-obamas-mind-control-un-dictatorship-plot/ http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/11/georgia-senate-gets-52-minute-briefing-united-nations-takeover http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/15/agenda-21-georgia-chip-rogers_n_2140438.html Was he flying under the radar, or so crazy even Doc Conspiracy wasn’t interested.

  15. avatar
    Arthur November 16, 2012 at 10:49 pm #

    jdkinpa: Was he flying under the radar, or so crazy even Doc Conspiracy wasn’t interested.

    Actually, Doc reported on this on Nov. 15, “Georgia Lawmakers Briefed on Obama Mind Control Plot.”

  16. avatar
    jdkinpa November 16, 2012 at 10:51 pm #

    O.K. thanks, I missed that. Need to spend more time here rather than bounce around the web.

  17. avatar
    egh November 17, 2012 at 8:14 am #

    Allan West has his redo of the St Lucie early votes! The flippers have just hit the backstroke in the voter fraud medley! (i’m still pushing for the truther-birther-flipper trifecta; Benghazi-gate stole the other obvious name.)

  18. avatar
    bob j November 17, 2012 at 8:15 am #

    So I was reading one of Orly’s filings and I saw this;

    “Cook case was a success for Taitz, as it became crystal clear that if Obama were to have any papers, the military would have provided them, rather than endanger the whole campaign of deployment to Afghanistan with rescission of Cook’s orders”

    I was under the assumption that Major Stephan Cook lost his security clearance because of this action, and was relieved of duty, and so was not deployed. Looking on the archives it seems that Major Cook died a couple of years ago. How can Orly put this in her filings?

  19. avatar
    Northland10 November 17, 2012 at 11:00 am #

    bob j:
    So I was reading one of Orly’s filings and I saw this;

    “Cook case was a success for Taitz, as it became crystal clear that if Obama were to have any papers, the military would have provided them, rather than endanger the whole campaign of deployment to Afghanistan with rescission of Cook’s orders”

    I was under the assumption that Major Stephan Cook lost his security clearance because of this action, and was relieved of duty, and so was not deployed. Looking on the archives it seems that Major Cook died a couple of years ago. How can Orly put this in her filings?

    From the one who trumpets her “historic trial” that was actually a loss to an empty chair, this is not surprising. Her “success” not only severely damaged Major Cook’s army and civilian career, it was before Judge Lamb who eventually sanctioned her in her next “successful case” of Rhodes v. Obama.

    Delusional does not even begin to describe her.

  20. avatar
    Northland10 November 17, 2012 at 11:01 am #

    I was just noticing the the same thing the other day.

    G:
    Has anyone noticed that there seems to be a connection between Mario having some loser turkey of a case about to be smacked down in court and Mario popping up at this site to spew and blather in useless hissy fits???

    It is the saddest display of honey boo-boo style attention whore trolling I’ve ever seen.

  21. avatar
    Rickey November 17, 2012 at 3:58 pm #

    bob j:

    I was under the assumption that Major Stephan Cook lost his security clearance because of this action, and was relieved of duty, and so was not deployed. Looking on the archives it seems that Major Cook died a couple of years ago. How can Orly put this in her filings?

    What actually happened is that Cook was a reservist who volunteered for active duty. Then, when he received his orders, he filed his lawsuit, with Orly as his attorney. The lawsuit challenged the validity of his orders based upon Obama’s supposed ineligibility to be President.

    However, the Army has rules in place which permit a volunteer reservist to change his or her mind at any point prior to deployment. It was obvious that Cook never had any intention of deploying – his volunteering was simply a ploy, as Orly was desperately trying to find a plaintiff who had standing. When the lawsuit was filed, the Army simply rescinded Cook’s orders on the basis that he obviously had changed his mind about deploying. The lawsuit was then dismissed as moot.

    The security clearance had to do with Cook’s civilian employment. He was working for a defense contractor but he lost his job when his security clearance was revoked. As I recall Orly tried to file another lawsuit over the security clearance revocation, but that went nowhere.

  22. avatar
    Bran Mak Morn November 18, 2012 at 3:50 pm #

    I love it.

    Those who say they want out of the United States, that they want their state to leave the union — are upset people are saying we can at least get you out if you want.

    “How dare you strip my citizenship away.”

    WTF?!?! These people are utter morons.

    First, they want their state to leave the union. But then they don’t want to lose citizenship. Which is it?

    And they say, “Well, it’s free speech.” So it is to also sign a petition asking for your citizenship revoked. At least it is consistent with the idea you signed up for!

  23. avatar
    Keith November 18, 2012 at 3:52 pm #

    Frank Zappa: Prophet.

    Counterpoint 1986

  24. avatar
    Keith November 18, 2012 at 6:28 pm #

    One of the great success stories of this election cycle.

    Congratulations America.

    On Election Day, Republicans Suffered Consequences of Voter Suppression Strategy

  25. avatar
    charo November 18, 2012 at 6:59 pm #

    I don’t go to the doctor often; I went last month and had to present my license (I am not from Phillie).

    http://philosecurity.org/2009/05/28/doctors-require-photo-id-for-treatment

    Medical Treatment Suppression Strategy? Granted, we don’t have a constitutional right to health care…. err wait, hasn’t that been an argument somewhere?

  26. avatar
    donna November 18, 2012 at 8:20 pm #

    charo: I don’t go to the doctor often; I went last month and had to present my license (I am not from Phillie).

    what if you don’t have a driver’s license? medicare cards don’t have photos on them nor do insurance cards – when i change insurance carriers, i present my new (non photo) card, they photocopy it and return it to me –

    from your link: This can give hospital insiders with criminal tendencies access to a treasure trove of photographic, biometric, and other information that may have been unavailable to them before. The result can be more identity theft (medical and otherwise).

    medicare cards contain your SS# – it seems to me that exposes MILLIONS to identity theft

  27. avatar
    gorefan November 18, 2012 at 8:31 pm #

    charo: I don’t go to the doctor often; I went last month and had to present my license

    More fallout from 9/11?

    I’ve had to present a DL for as long as I can remember, I guess it depended on your healthcare provider..

    Here is the AMA’s letter protesting the implimentation of the FTC’s “Red Flag” rule. That rule included some healthcare providers in 2003 but wasn’t really finalized until 2007 with implimented to began in 2008, that was then delayed until August, 2009.

    http://www.ftc.gov/os/closings/staff/090204amaredflagsrule.pdf

    We live in a changed world.

  28. avatar
    JPotter November 18, 2012 at 9:26 pm #

    charo: we don’t have a constitutional right to health care…. err wait, hasn’t that been an argument somewhere?

    No, it has been argued that health is something more basic than a constitutional right; it’s a human right.

    Know your rights, dear ;)

  29. avatar
    donna November 18, 2012 at 9:48 pm #

    JPotter:

    actually the vatican calls universal healthcare an “inalienable right”

  30. avatar
    charo November 18, 2012 at 9:59 pm #

    donna:
    JPotter:

    actually the vatican calls universal healthcare an “inalienable right”

    As it does the right to be born, particularly without scissors being shoved into the head while partially delivered. Talk about human rights. If that baby makes it through the birth canal, then the child is entitled to healthcare. A few seconds prior to that, there are no rights at all.

    Mere seconds can determine whether one is a human entitled to human rights.

  31. avatar
    donna November 18, 2012 at 11:35 pm #

    charo : If that baby makes it through the birth canal, then the child is entitled to healthcare. A few seconds prior to that, there are no rights at all.

    so when doctors perform surgery in-utero on a fetus, that is not covered by health insurance?

    January 28, 2006 – In-Utero Surgery Offers Hope

    The operation was both delicate and complex, requiring the expertise of 16 specialists who worked together in November to thread a lifesaving stent into a malformed human heart. The procedure might have been routine were it not for the patient: a fetus nestled in her mother’s womb.

    After the surgery, on a heart the size of a grape, Grace VanDerwerken became the world’s first fetus to have a cardiac device implanted, doctors said. Yesterday, Grace, just 17 days old, was discharged from Children’s Hospital Boston, and she will fly home today to Loudoun County with her parents.

    doctors at Children’s Hospital Boston and Brigham and Women’s Hospital have performed more than 60 in-utero procedures on the heart

    February 9, 2011 Major benefits for spina bifida surgery in the womb

    Right before Christmas 2002, Tara Hallman was told her 20-week-old fetus had spina bifida, a common birth defect of the spine.

    There is no cure, only treatment, so some parents choose to end the pregnancy. If the pregnancy is carried to term, the newborn needs an operationa few days later, so the spinal cord can be pushed back into the spinal column.

    Hallman was presented with a third option: Doctors could operate on her baby while it was still in the womb.

    charo: As it does the right to be born, particularly without scissors being shoved into the head while partially delivered.

    1.1% of abortions are performed at 21+ weeks

    why do you think republicans wanted those transVAGINAL probes aka state sponsored rape?

    they wanted women to see a zygote the size of a blueberry with a tail and no arms nor legs and say “oh how cute, ok i changed my mind” – non-invasive sonograms are not performed until the second trimester – nearly 90% of abortions are performed within the 1st trimester (61.3% < 9 weeks)

  32. avatar
    G November 19, 2012 at 12:31 am #

    Yeah, it seems like how the issue is being handled differs at the healthcare provider level, NOT from the federal government. From Charo’s link, it seems like this FTC controversy started in 2009…

    Now my wife has certain health issues and so has had a number of visits to different medical providers. I’ve had a few visits in that ensuing time to a few people myself. I honestly can’t recall being asked to go through such a hassle as described by the folks at Charo’s web link…

    I do always recall having to nearly always fill out a lot of invasive paperwork, detailing everything I can remember about my entire life health history though… which is why I am a huge proponent of much needed improvements in both privacy protection of medical records as well as standardized portability of them. Hey, I’m the fricking patient…they are the professionals. It should not be my job or responsibility to have to know and remember off the top of my head, every date and detail of every medical procedure I’ve had in my entire life. That is the medical pros job and they should start moving into the 21st century and just need to verify who I am sufficiently enough to get my permission to access my records somehow…

    Which seems to go back to what the actual intent of that controversial FTC law is…and as repeatedly noted in the comments in Charo’s article, it seems obvious that the problems in abusing the regulations are being done by individual medical providers, who are going overboard and creating more problems than they are solving.

    It also seems clear in those comments that any photocopying and scanning of driver’s licenses and photo IDs is violating other privacy laws and just increasing the risk of identity theft instead of reducing it… and that there is NOTHING in those FTC regulations that even directly refers to photo ID at all!

    As one commenter noted, the actual text of the FTC regulation seems fairly vague and generalized:

    The Rule itself is actually fairly general. According to the FTC:

    If you’re covered by the Rule, your program must:
    1. Identify the kinds of red flags that are relevant to your practice;
    2. Explain your process for detecting them;
    3. Describe how you’ll respond to red flags to prevent and mitigate identity theft; and
    4. Spell out how you’ll keep your program current.

    That’s basically it. The specifics are determined by your organization.

    There are certainly alternatives to checking ID. For example, patients are often asked to sign forms when they arrive at the doctor’s office. Signature checking is an effective means of verifying a person’s identity, which has worked for the banking industry for decades. Rather than regularly asking for an updated copy of the patient’s photo ID, office staff could simply check that the current signature matches the one already on file from previous visits. If not, that would be considered a red flag, and then staff could potentially ask for further verification (depending on the organization’s response policy).

    So my response to Charo would be that I can understand opposition to how this particular medical provider is behaving…but the blame lies with that individual private sector business owner and how they have chosen on their own to establish and dictate policy for their clients and employees. If they are blaming their bad practices on regulations, then they are simply full of BS and passing the buck…as the actual regulations do not suggest anything at all like what they have put in place all on their own.

    So yeah, this has nothing to do with the false meme of “big government”…and everything to do with irresponsibility within the private sector itself…and a miscasting of blame for where the real faults in policy behavior lay.

    gorefan: I’ve had to present a DL for as long as I can remember, I guess it depended on your healthcare provider..

  33. avatar
    gorefan November 19, 2012 at 1:21 am #

    G: it seems like this FTC controversy started in 2009…

    It actually started in 2003 when the FTC first issued the “Red Flags” rule which was finalized in 2007. It was published in the Federal Register in November, 2007. The rule was mainly aimed at financial institutions but there is this statement in the final rule.

    “For instance, creditors in the health care field may be at risk of medical identity theft (i.e., identity theft for the purpose of obtaining medical services) and, therefore, must identify Red Flags that reflect this risk.”

    http://www.hipaa.com/documents/071109redflags.pdf

    As the letter from the American Medical Association indicates staff attorneys at the FTC determined that physcians could be considered “creditors’ and would be bound by the rule. The AMA disagreed.

    The “Red Flags” was original scheduled to go into effect on November 1st, 2008. That date was then postponed until May 1st, 2009 and then postponed again until August 1, 2009.

  34. avatar
    gorefan November 19, 2012 at 3:10 am #

    LA Times article about Romney. The picture at the top of the article is hilarious.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-republicans-abandoning-romney-gifts-20121118,0,7640109.story

  35. avatar
    US Citizen November 19, 2012 at 3:24 am #

    Just for the hell of it, I typed “Romney will win” into Google.
    (Google also suggested all sorts of other alternatives and provided over a million pages to choose from.)

    Some of the best pages are the predictions from various political authors on-staff with actual publications and news outlets.
    Dean Chambers’ Unskewed Polls seems to be low-hanging fruit, but some of these other predictions were just as far off.
    It’s comical to read a long and detailed analysis for every swing state and get every one of them wrong.

  36. avatar
    Scientist November 19, 2012 at 7:49 am #

    US Citizen: Just for the hell of it, I typed “Romney will win” into Google.(Google also suggested all sorts of other alternatives and provided over a million pages to choose from.)Some of the best pages are the predictions from various political authors on-staff with actual publications and news outlets.Dean Chambers’ Unskewed Polls seems to be low-hanging fruit, but some of these other predictions were just as far off.It’s comical to read a long and detailed analysis for every swing state and get every one of them wrong.

    What amazes me is that those “expert pundits” who made those disastrously wrong predictions are continuing on pontificating as though they actually knew something. There was George Will (Romney 321 EVs) in his usual spot on ABC’s “This Week” dispensing his wisdom to the unwashed. But, given that he convincingly demonstrated how out of touch he is with where the country is in 2012, why would anyone pay him even a penny for his thoughts? Why not fire the entire crew of washed-up has-beens and bring in a new crew of pundits who at least called things correctly?

    For the record, I note again that I predicted in January 2009 that unemployment in October 2012 would be below 8% and trending down and that if it were, Obama would be re-elected. I’m not saying I should have George Will’s job (or am I?)….

  37. avatar
    Scientist November 19, 2012 at 8:03 am #

    charo: Medical Treatment Suppression Strategy? Granted, we don’t have a constitutional right to health care…. err wait, hasn’t that been an argument somewhere?

    I think I have pointed out here before that the Constitution was intended as a FLOOR of rights, not a ceiling. Just because a right is not specifically mentioned in the Constitution doesn’t mean that it is not valid. The 9th amendment makes that point quite clearly.

    The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which the US not only signed, but which largely owes its existence to a great American, Eleanor Roosevelt, states: “Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control” Article 25

    Article 21 states: “Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.” which implies a right to vote.

  38. avatar
    donna November 19, 2012 at 9:42 am #

    US Citizen : Just for the hell of it, I typed “Romney will win” into Google.

    i did that with “romney landslide” and came out with a whole list of erroneous prognosticators – my fave was from rush “mitt BIG 300+ EV”

    david frum: The problem with the Republican leaders is that they’re cowards, not that they’re fundamentally mistaken. The real locus of the problem is the Republican activist base and the Republican donor base. They went apocalyptic over the past four years, and that was exploited by a lot of people in the conservative world. I won’t soon forget the lupine smile that played over the head of one major conservative institution when he told me that our donors think the apocalypse has arrived, that Republicans have been fleeced and exploited and lied to by a conservative entertainment complex.

  39. avatar
    The Magic M November 19, 2012 at 9:51 am #

    US Citizen: It’s comical to read a long and detailed analysis for every swing state and get every one of them wrong.

    Well, even the longest argument can break down from one fallacy. In case of “unskewed polls”, the argument was usually “yeah Obama is slightly ahead even after ‘unskewing’, but Reps are more energized and independents lean Romney, so Obama will still lose”. And that was nothing but bias and wishful thinking.

  40. avatar
    Scientist November 19, 2012 at 10:39 am #

    charo: Talk about human rights. If that baby makes it through the birth canal, then the child is entitled to healthcare. A few seconds prior to that, there are no rights at all.

    Moral and religious questions aside, as a matter of public policy, what would passing laws accomplish? We’ve seen the fabulous efficacy of legal prohibitions on alcohol and drugs. Do you think adding doctors and women to the already swollen US prison populations (we’re #1!, at least when it comes to incarceration) is some kind of solution? If abortion were made illegal, the well-off would simply go to other countries while the less well-off would go to the back alleys.

    Ireland has had great success (not) with its policies. Now, they are being called out in international fora because an Indian woman died when she had a miscarriage and the doctors wouldn’t intervene while the fetal heart was beating? http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/16/from-india-pressure-on-ireland-over-abortion-laws/?src=rechp
    That’s a terrific model, isnt it?

  41. avatar
    donna November 19, 2012 at 10:51 am #

    Scientist: “an Indian woman died when she had a miscarriage and the doctors wouldn’t intervene while the fetal heart was beating”

    remember what wingnut joe walsh said:

    “With modern technology and science, you can’t find ONE INSTANCE” of an abortion necessary to save the life of the mother, Walsh said after a debate with Tammy Duckworth, his Democratic opponent, according to the Chicago Tribune. “… There is no such exception as life of the mother, and as far as health of the mother, same thing.”

  42. avatar
    JPotter November 19, 2012 at 11:42 am #

    Scientist: There was George Will (Romney 321 EVs) in his usual spot on ABC’s “This Week” dispensing his ‘wisdom’ to the unwashed. But, given that he convincingly demonstrated how out of touch he is with where the country is in 2012,

    FIFY, sir. He dispenses it with polish, but it’s the same wisefoolery that runs deep in America, and goes waaaaayyyyyy back. It’s the same childish, “I’m too wised to be blamed for it” pessimism that’s poisoned conservatism since …. forever?

    Will gave a talk here last summer. The Tea Party turned out in droves. At the time he was rejecting the extreme crazy as voiced there in the Q&A, but over the past month, he’s gone over the edge. Is this election what will finally send him teetering over to the fullblowm crazy?

    He should stick to baseball. It’s more contemporaneous with him.

    Steve Forbes was on board with the 321 number. It was a popular prediction …not that these guys crowdsource their reality or anything:
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveforbes/2012/11/06/steve-forbes-romney-will-win-decisively/

    Congrats on your prognostication. I stated O would win with 300+EVs last January … posted that here and there …. based solely on the dumbfounding stupidity of the entire Republican field, their rejection of Huntsman, and the inevitability of rMoney. The People will vote for stupid, but only if presented well enough. If you can’t manage to market yerself as well as The Shrub (Dubya), please stay home.

    And all the Red soothsayers …. winning the EC with 300+ isn’t winning BIG. Obama didn’t win BIG. It’s a winner take all system. 360 is big. 390 is bigger. 420 is bigger-est. It’s going to take a transformative vision to put a win like that together again.

  43. avatar
    The Magic M November 19, 2012 at 12:05 pm #

    Found this over at Dr Kate’s, the latest idiotic misunderstanding of the Constitution:

    From article on Patriot Action Network. There might be a way out:

    According to Article II of the U.S. Constitution AND the 12th Amendment – if 1/3rd of the States do not cast their votes in the Electoral College, then the matter falls onto the House of Representatives to choose the President.

    Obviously these people have a hard time understanding basic English whenever it suits their deluded needs…

    Of course the House can only choose the President if neither candidate gets a majority in the EC (and then there is a 2/3′s requirement for the House).

    If it were as the loons believe, any third of the states (say, the smallest third) could always nullify a Presidential election and put the House in control. Oh the idiocy!

  44. avatar
    donna November 19, 2012 at 3:09 pm #

    speaking of the next in line, rubio who’s ON THE SCIENCE COMMITTEE:

    Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) isn’t qualified to answer a question about how old the earth is, he told GQ in a recent interview.

    “I’m not a scientist, man. I can tell you what recorded history says, I can tell you what the Bible says, but I think that’s a dispute amongst theologians and I think it has nothing to do with the gross domestic product or economic growth of the United States,” Rubio told GQ’s Michael Hainey. “I don’t think I’m qualified to answer a question like that. At the end of the day, I think there are multiple theories out there on how the universe was created and I think this is a country where people should have the opportunity to teach them all.”

    Rubio continued, refusing to take a stance on the planet’s age, which scientists have long estimated at 4.54 billion years.

    “Whether the Earth was created in 7 days, or 7 actual eras, I’m not sure we’ll ever be able to answer that,” he said. “It’s one of the great mysteries.”

  45. avatar
    JPotter November 19, 2012 at 6:31 pm #

    donna: speaking of the next in line, rubio who’s ON THE SCIENCE COMMITTEE:

    Ain’t that just always the way? Lil weasel trying to play it both ways. I swear the Reds send members to the science committees based on capacity for magical thinking.

    Okieland tripled down on denial re: Obamacare today, believeing that, again as if by magic, a smaller pool (Okieland) will attain greater efficiency than a large one.

    They literally believe that one state holding out will bring the entire ACA tumbling down like a house of cards.

    Because, like, you know, the law was designed on the assumption that every state, no matter how backwards, would play ball, right? …. right?

    Never mind us, America, we’ll be here in the breakdown lane. Please go around.

  46. avatar
    G November 19, 2012 at 7:03 pm #

    The only thing that Rubio said truthfully there is that he isn’t qualified…

    With his asinine pandering statement, he has sure proven that to be true…

    donna:
    speaking of the next in line, rubio who’s ON THE SCIENCE COMMITTEE:

    Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) isn’t qualified to answer a question about how old the earth is, he told GQ in a recent interview.

    “I’m not a scientist, man. I can tell you what recorded history says, I can tell you what the Bible says, but I think that’s a dispute amongst theologians and I think it has nothing to do with the gross domestic product or economic growth of the United States,” Rubio told GQ’s Michael Hainey. “I don’t think I’m qualified to answer a question like that. At the end of the day, I think there are multiple theories out there on how the universe was created and I think this is a country where people should have the opportunity to teach them all.”

    Rubio continued, refusing to take a stance on the planet’s age, which scientists have long estimated at 4.54 billion years.

    “Whether the Earth was created in 7 days, or 7 actual eras, I’m not sure we’ll ever be able to answer that,” he said. “It’s one of the great mysteries.”

  47. avatar
    donna November 19, 2012 at 8:25 pm #

    Rubio joins the ranks of other REPUBLICAN brain trusts on the SCIENCE committee like Dana Rohrabacher – “Republican’s Climate Solution: Clear-Cut the Rain Forest”.

    AND “legitimate rape” akins who thinks rape victims have a SHUT OFF VALVE against pregnancies

    AND Paul Broun: “All that stuff I was taught about evolution and embryology and the Big Bang Theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of He !!. And it’s lies to try to keep me and all the folks who were taught that from understanding that they need a savior.”

    “You see, there are a lot of scientific data that I’ve found out as a scientist that actually show that this is really a young Earth,” he told the crowd. “I don’t believe that the Earth’s but about 9,000 years old. I believe it was created in six days as we know them. That’s what the Bible says.”

    the congressman told the crowd that his strict biblical readings have guided his legislative career.

    “What I’ve come to learn is that it’s the manufacturer’s handbook, is what I call it,” he said. “It teaches us how to run our lives individually, how to run our families, how to run our churches. But it teaches us how to run all of public policy and everything in society. And that’s the reason as your congressman I hold the holy Bible as being the major directions to me of how I vote in Washington, D.C., and I will continue to do that.”

  48. avatar
    misha marinsky November 19, 2012 at 10:33 pm #

    ‘Communism’ and ‘Glenn Beck’ each have nine letters. Hmmm…

  49. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG November 19, 2012 at 10:50 pm #

    Birthers are stuck in a corrupted version of the Kübler-Ross model. They never hit stage five. Instead they hit four, then loop right back to one. Rinse, repeat. I think the guy who ran Birthers.org was the only one who finally got to five, packed up, and then left.

  50. avatar
    Keith November 19, 2012 at 11:55 pm #

    Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!

    The Invisible Killer

    Dihydrogen monoxide is colorless, odorless, tasteless, and kills uncounted thousands of people every year. Most of these deaths are caused by accidental inhalation of DHMO, but the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide do not end there. Prolonged exposure to its solid form causes severe tissue damage. Symptoms of DHMO ingestion can include excessive sweating and urination, and possibly a bloated feeling, nausea, vomiting and body electrolyte imbalance. For those who have become dependent, DHMO withdrawal means certain death.

    Dihydrogen monoxide:

    * is also known as hydroxyl acid, and is the major component of acid rain.
    * contributes to the “greenhouse effect.”
    * may cause severe burns.
    * contributes to the erosion of our natural landscape.
    * accelerates corrosion and rusting of many metals.
    * may cause electrical failures and decreased effectiveness of automobile brakes.
    * has been found in excised tumors of terminal cancer patients.

    I think I need to start a new White House petition before the petition to stop White House petitions passes.

  51. avatar
    JPotter November 20, 2012 at 9:25 am #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: Birthers are stuck in a corrupted version of the Kübler-Ross model. They never hit stage five. Instead they hit four, then loop right back to one.

    Unfortunately, the primary cause of their dilemma, “reality”, is pretty darn consistent. They’re just never ready to accept it, and like you say, bounce right back around to denial.

    Even Birthers.org ‘moved on’ in a “taking my toys and going home” kind of way LOL

  52. avatar
    The Magic M November 20, 2012 at 10:15 am #

    Keith: I think I need to start a new White House petition before the petition to stop White House petitions passes.

    I think we need a petition to stop petitions to stop petitions first!

    JPotter: Unfortunately, the primary cause of their dilemma, “reality”, is pretty darn consistent.

    On the contrary, reality is pretty inconsistent, at least at a certain level of detail. Which is why so many “anomalies” pop up if you just look long and hard enough. The belief that everything is always in line with everything else is what prompts facilitates the invention of conspiracy theories in the first place. Find just one tiny bit that seems “odd” (as in: imperfect) and off you go looking for the wildest explanations for that perceived oddity.

  53. avatar
    G November 20, 2012 at 10:23 am #

    Funny you should mention this! I just finished reading an interesting article about Karl Rove’s fictional influences on his realpolitik actions, which totally confirms what you are saying here:

    A must read:

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/20/what-karl-rove-s-learned-from-jorge-luis-borges.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+thedailybeast%2Fpolitics+%28The+Daily+Beast+-+Politics%29

    The Magic M: I think we need a petition to stop petitions to stop petitions first!

    On the contrary, reality is pretty inconsistent, at least at a certain level of detail. Which is why so many “anomalies” pop up if you just look long and hard enough. The belief that everything is always in line with everything else is what prompts facilitates the invention of conspiracy theories in the first place. Find just one tiny bit that seems “odd” (as in: imperfect) and off you go looking for the wildest explanations for that perceived oddity.

  54. avatar
    dunstvangeet November 20, 2012 at 10:29 am #

    Keith:
    * is also known as hydroxyl acid, and is the major component of acid rain.

    Hydroxl Acid is not it’s proper name. It’s Hydroxic Acid!

  55. avatar
    Keith November 20, 2012 at 10:34 am #

    dunstvangeet: Hydroxl Acid is not it’s proper name.It’s Hydroxic Acid!

    Who are you to challenge the authority of a cut and paste job?

  56. avatar
    JPotter November 20, 2012 at 10:37 am #

    The Magic M: On the contrary, reality is pretty inconsistent, at least at a certain level of detail. Which is why so many “anomalies” pop up if you just look long and hard enough.

    True, very true. I was thinking of the reality of the White House occupant, which they won’t accept, as they aren’t prepared to admit error. As you remind, the chaos of all the little things keeps throing out “rays of hope” to minds desperate for reasons to resist acceptance.

    Another depressing thought about these unfortunates; in an effort to fortify their refusal of reality, they polluted their minds with untruths, untruths that they will apparently carry on until they croak.

    It’s human to be ignorant, to not even know what you don’t know, no one can know everything. But to be wilfully misinformed?

    Well, OK, that isn’t rare or unusual, either. See creationism, climate denial, etc.

    But to intentionally self-inflict mind damage over something as fleeting as politics?

  57. avatar
    JPotter November 20, 2012 at 10:40 am #

    Keith: Who are you to challenge the authority of a cut and paste job?

    I thought it was hysterical, Keith, thanks for sharing! My high school chem teach used to refer to …. uh …. that dangerously common chemical that way.

    I almost didn’t get the “causes severe burns” part. To wicked witches and the like, of course. I’m so slow in the mornings. ;)

  58. avatar
    Rickey November 20, 2012 at 10:49 am #

    In breaking news, people who lived in red states are more likely to die in auto accidents than people who live in blue states.

    http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/20/15224677-red-state-blue-state-divide-reflected-in-grim-statistic-fatal-traffic-accidents?lite

  59. avatar
    JPotter November 20, 2012 at 1:24 pm #

    Rickey: In breaking news, people who lived in red states are more likely to die in auto accidents than people who live in blue states.

    It’s not at all surprising, it’s urban v. rural combined with basic math.

    Open space, long driving distances, no congestion, faster speeds, more violent collisions and more of them. Also a lack of hyperdense urban pops relying on public transport to water down the statistics. Also, far more hazardous driving conditions in rural areas. And young drivers …. and the classic, small-town, nothing to do syndrome.

    Naturally, blue states are 90+% rural areas too, but the preponderance of their population are in cities. Take New York. A third(?) of the people are in the NYC megapolis, with greatly reduced opportunity to kill themselves in a car. The study calls out WY … not a traffic jam in sight there.

    Seriously, congestion is a life saver. It may get you later due to the accumulated stress, but at least you got home in one piece.

    All that said, have you seen the action on the highways in Houston? Iesus! How has the population of that city grown? Oh, right, the underclass that can’t afford cars….

  60. avatar
    Keith November 20, 2012 at 4:49 pm #

    JPotter: I almost didn’t get the “causes severe burns” part.

    When in its gaseous state.

  61. avatar
    Keith November 20, 2012 at 4:59 pm #

    JPotter: All that said, have you seen the action on the highways in Houston?

    30+ years ago I drove from Tucson to Houston to visit my sister who lived in Huntsville.

    They were in the process of adding a lane to one of the ring roads, I forget which one. They had gotten about two thirds of the way around, but the lane that had been completed hadn’t been opened to traffic yet.

    It seems they couldn’t afford to keep cleaning up the piles of trash that had filled it up from people throwing their crap out the window and they wanted to do it just once. Houston didn’t have a taxpayer funded garbage collection, so anyone who couldn’t afford or didn’t want to pay for garbage pickup, just found someplace to throw it. Cul-de-sacs, the river, freshly paved but as yet opened freeway lanes…

  62. avatar
    charo November 21, 2012 at 9:45 am #

    donna:
    speaking of the next in line, rubio who’s ON THE SCIENCE COMMITTEE:

    Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) isn’t qualified to answer a question about how old the earth is, he told GQ in a recent interview.

    “I’m not a scientist, man. I can tell you what recorded history says, I can tell you what the Bible says, but I think that’s a dispute amongst theologians and I think it has nothing to do with the gross domestic product or economic growth of the United States,” Rubio told GQ’s Michael Hainey. “I don’t think I’m qualified to answer a question like that. At the end of the day, I think there are multiple theories out there on how the universe was created and I think this is a country where people should have the opportunity to teach them all.”

    Rubio continued, refusing to take a stance on the planet’s age, which scientists have long estimated at 4.54 billion years.

    “Whether the Earth was created in 7 days, or 7 actual eras, I’m not sure we’ll ever be able to answer that,” he said. “It’s one of the great mysteries.”

    Q: Senator, if one of your daughters asked you—and maybe they already have—“Daddy, did god really create the world in 6 days?,” what would you say?

    A: What I’ve said to them is that I believe that God created the universe and that the six days in the Bible may not be six days as we understand it … it may not be 24-hour days, and that’s what I believe. I know there’s always a debate between those who read the Bible literally and those who don’t, and I think it’s a legitimate debate within the Christian community of which I’m a part. My belief is that the story that the Bible tells about God creating this magnificent Earth on which we live—that is essentially true, that is fundamentally true. Now, whether it happened exactly as we might understand it reading the text of the Bible: That, I don’t presume to know.

    ****
    Who is the Senator above? Does the person actually say “[l]egitimate debate within the Christian community?” and “I don’t presume to know?” If it’s a legitimate debate, wouldn’t that imply discussion? How would that apply in a secular class room? Evangelical Fundamentalists believe in sola scriptura; Catholics (and other Christians) do not. I agree with the Senator’s answer above. If you believe God is all powerful, He could have made the world in any amount of time. The question I have for Fundamentalists is how does their view square with the idea that God created “time” as we know it on the fourth day?

  63. avatar
    Scientist November 21, 2012 at 10:24 am #

    charo: Who is the Senator above?

    It has been fairly well publiczed that that was Sen Obama in 2008. Here is the difference between his answer and Sen Rubio’s. The question posed to Obama was specifically posed in the religious context; the questioner mentioned God up front. The question posed to Rubio was in a factual, non-religious context. There is also a huge difference in POLICY between Obama and the Democrats and Rubio and the Tea Partiers. One accepts scientific truth on issues such global climate (even if I and many others are dissatisfied with their lack of action) and one does not. Discussions on how best to deal with climate change are perfectly valid; pretending it doesn’t exist is not.

    PS-I give your Church good grades on that issue.

    As for religious beliefs being taught, I have absolutely no problem with public schools teaching that Christians believe this, Hindus believe that, certain Native American tribes believe this, etc. My wife is a Spanish teacher and presents Aztec myths as well as the story of the Virgin of Guadalupe because they are important parts of Mexican history. But science classes do a grave disservice pretending that creationism is a valid scientific theory or that the earth is 9000 years old. The justification that parents might believe that is specious-if some parents are in the KKK would we insist that American History classes prsennt a “balanced view” of slavery in which it might have been OK?

  64. avatar
    charo November 21, 2012 at 10:48 am #

    Scientist: It has been fairly well publiczed that that was Sen Obama in 2008.Here is the difference between his answer and Sen Rubio’s.The question posed to Obama was specifically posed in the religious context; the questioner mentioned God up front.The question posed to Rubio was in a factual, non-religious context.There is also a huge difference in POLICY between Obama and the Democrats and Rubio and the Tea Partiers. One accepts scientific truth on issues such global climate (even if I and many others are dissatisfied with their lack of action) and one does not.Discussions on how best to deal with climate change are perfectly valid; pretending it doesn’t exist is not.

    PS-I give your Church good grades on that issue.

    As for religious beliefs being taught, I have absolutely no problem with public schools teaching that Christians believe this, Hindus believe that, certain Native American tribes believe this, etc.My wife is a Spanish teacher and presents Aztec myths as well as the story of the Virgin of Guadalupe because they are important parts of Mexican history.But science classes do a grave disservice pretending that creationism is a valid scientific theory or that the earth is 9000 years old. The justification that parents might believe that is specious-if some parents are in the KKK would we insist that American History classes prsennt a “balanced view” of slavery in which it might have been OK?

    I don’t see how the context matters in this instance. The idea presented on the thread that I quoted is that Rubio is a wacko based on that one answer, not any of the ideas that you mentioned (climate change,…). Obama basically said that he believes that creation days were not specific 24 hour periods, but that he felt it was open to discussion, and that he did not presume to know the answers. His answer then (which may have morphed since) does not suggest that both views should be taught along side each other, with the one view being presented as the clearly wrong belief of stupid fundamentalists (of which I am not a member).

    I see a smear campaign starting early for Rubio.

  65. avatar
    Scientist November 21, 2012 at 11:15 am #

    charo: Obama basically said that he believes that creation days were not specific 24 hour periods, but that he felt it was open to discussion, and that he did not presume to know the answers. His answer then (which may have morphed since) does not suggest that both views should be taught along side each other, with the one view being presented as the clearly wrong belief of stupid fundamentalists (of which I am not a member).

    Religious views, as taught in comparative religion curricula, should never be and are not labelled as wrong or stupid. They should be and are taught as “This is what such and such religion believes.”

    My beef is when people like Governor Jindal (I don’t know where Rubio stands) wants them presented in science class as scientific theories. The word theory has a precise meaning in science and creationism fails those tests miserably. As a biologist, I can assure you that creationism has no scientific validity whatsoever. It is simply not accepted by biologists, including ones who are very religious (a notable example is Francis Collins, head of the Genome Institute at NIH). Fringe beliefs do not belong in grade school and high school. Those kids have enough trouble assimilating the basic nuts and bolts of mainstream science. If one of them wants to grow up and believe whatever they like as an adult, that is their right. But school is for learning the various disciplines as they are practiced by the experts of our time.

  66. avatar
    charo November 21, 2012 at 11:30 am #

    Also, the election results, at least to my understanding, indicates that climate change and creationists’ views were not that much of a factor. A slim margin in four key states believed that Obama should be have another four years. I am open to differing ideas on immigration, taxes, but I am closed on some issues. If the voters that Republicans need to draw in have views that conflict with my core beliefs, I would be disheartened, but I would not adopt the attitude, “if you can’t beat’em, join’em.” I don’t believe that you would do that either.

    Scientist: Religious views, as taught in comparative religion curricula, should never be and are not labelled as wrong or stupid.They should be and are taught as “This is what such and such religion believes.”

    My beef is when people like Governor Jindal (I don’t know where Rubio stands) wants them presented in science class as scientific theories.The word theory has a precise meaning in science and creationism fails those tests miserably.As a biologist, I can assure you that creationism has no scientific validity whatsoever.It is simply not accepted by biologists, including ones who are very religious (a notable example is Francis Collins, head of the Genome Institute at NIH).Fringe beliefs do not belong in grade school and high school.Those kids have enough trouble assimilating the basic nuts and bolts of mainstream science.If one of them wants to grow up and believe whatever they like as an adult, that is their right.But school is for learning the various disciplines as they are practiced by the experts of our time.

    It seems to me that in your view, there is no supernatural in the religious sense. I think the whole idea of the age of the earth whether presented as creationism or otherwise, can be skipped without damaging the child’s education. As you said, they can believe what they want as an adult.

    Also, the election results, at least to my understanding, indicates that climate change and creationists’ views were not that much of a factor. A slim margin in four key states believed that Obama should be have another four years. I am open to immigration ideas, taxes and some other issues, but I am closed on others. If the voters that Republicans need to draw in have views that conflict with my core beliefs, I would be disheartened, but I would not adopt the attitude, “if you can’t beat’em, join’em.” I don’t believe that you would do that either.

  67. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 21, 2012 at 11:38 am #

    I strongly disagree. To omit a major scientific finding from a standard course in “Earth Science” for the sole purpose of not exposing a child to an idea which is contrary to somebody’s religion is acting to establish that religion, and as such is unconstitutional.

    charo: . I think the whole idea of the age of the earth whether presented as creationism or otherwise, can be skipped without damaging the child’s education. As you said, they can believe what they want as an adult.

  68. avatar
    Scientist November 21, 2012 at 11:56 am #

    charo: Also, the election results, at least to my understanding, indicates that climate change and creationists’ views were not that much of a factor.

    Hurricane Sandy was likely exacerbated by rising sea levels and some Republican sages (perhaps a contradiction in terms) believe the storm was decisive for Obama. Mayor Bloomberg’s endorsement was based on that,and while endosements are rarely that big a deal, his may have helped Obama with moderates (whom Obama won quite decisively).

    Where science unquestionably helped Obama was that his campaign made use of the latest findings in behavioral research, including assembling a team of top experts and listening very carefully to their advice. For all the talk of how motivated Republicans were (by hatred, mostly) Team Obama kicked their butts in getting their voters to turn out.

    charo: It seems to me that in your view, there is no supernatural in the religious sense.

    In the religious sense there is supernatural. In fact, religion is very little else. But in science there is none, since science is about nature and things beyond nature (supernatural) are, by definition, unscientific.

    charo: I think the whole idea of the age of the earth whether presented as creationism or otherwise, can be skipped without damaging the child’s education.

    I’m with Doc. That is absurd. We shouldn’t teach about our planet becaue someone might diagree? Pretty soon, there would be nothing taught at all since, for just about anything, I could doubtless find someone who disagrees.

  69. avatar
    Scientist November 21, 2012 at 12:00 pm #

    charo: I see a smear campaign starting early for Rubio.

    There is no need to smear Rubio, since, as you surely know, he is ineligible to be President. Vattel said you must be born in the US with citizen ancestors (correct translation from the French) as Obama was, but Rubio, Jindal and Cruz were not.

  70. avatar
    charo November 21, 2012 at 12:02 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I strongly disagree. To omit a major scientific finding from a standard course in “Earth Science” for the sole purpose of not exposing a child to an idea which is contrary to somebody’s religion is acting to establish that religion, and as such is unconstitutional.

    A private school could do it. My daughter in 6th grade has Earth Science as one of her subjects in a charter school. Ironically, the topic yesterday was the age of the earth. We talked about it briefly and moved on. The Creationist version is absent because charter schools have to follow state curriculum. If she were to develop an interest in earth science, we would delve further. God and science co-exist in my belief system. How God created all things and how that related to time is something that I will not be able to prove.

  71. avatar
    charo November 21, 2012 at 12:10 pm #

    Scientist: There is no need to smear Rubio, since, as you surely know, he is ineligible to be President.Vattel said you must be born in the US with citizen ancestors (correct translation from the French) as Obama was, but Rubio, Jindal and Cruz were not.

    We’ll see how that pans out in the future for any challenges. I have no doubt that Rubio will be a contender for the presidency at some point.

  72. avatar
    charo November 21, 2012 at 12:14 pm #

    Scientist: For all the talk of how motivated Republicans were (by hatred, mostly) Team Obama kicked their butts in getting their voters to turn out.

    I would phrase it that the Republicans did so poorly in turning out their voters. Obama had significantly less voters this time around. The machine behind the win prepared for that and zeroed in on the voters they needed.

  73. avatar
    charo November 21, 2012 at 12:20 pm #

    Scientist: I’m with Doc. That is absurd. We shouldn’t teach about our planet becaue someone might diagree? Pretty soon, there would be nothing taught at all since, for just about anything, I could doubtless find someone who disagrees.

    The whole age of the earth issue for me boils down to the issue of sola scriptura. That is why you don’t really see the Creationist theory as a Catholic hold out position.

  74. avatar
    Scientist November 21, 2012 at 12:20 pm #

    charo: I have no doubt that Rubio will be a contender for the presidency at some point.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QsNXd57Ppw

  75. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 21, 2012 at 12:25 pm #

    One might characterize what you said is that Obama won because his team was competent. Having a president who puts together a competent team is a big deal in my book, and one of the reasons I supported his re-election.

    Scientist: Where science unquestionably helped Obama was that his campaign made use of the latest findings in behavioral research, including assembling a team of top experts and listening very carefully to their advice. For all the talk of how motivated Republicans were (by hatred, mostly) Team Obama kicked their butts in getting their voters to turn out.

  76. avatar
    charo November 21, 2012 at 12:27 pm #

    BTW, this is a scientific area of study. The Creighton Model…

  77. avatar
    charo November 21, 2012 at 12:33 pm #

    Scientist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QsNXd57Ppw

    Movies ain’t what they used to be.

  78. avatar
    donna November 21, 2012 at 3:06 pm #

    charo: Also, the election results, at least to my understanding, indicates that climate change and creationists’ views were not that much of a factor.

    Sixty-eight percent of Americans see climate change as a “serious problem,” according to a poll released on Friday.

    The poll was conducted by Rasmussen on Monday, the DAY BEFORE the U.S. presidential election.

    The poll marks a huge shift for Americans. In 2009, a Rasmussen poll showed that only 46 percent of Americans thought climate change was a serious issue.

    Friday’s poll reflects one released in July by the Washington Post in which 60 percent of Americans surveyed said they believed climate change was real.

    being anti-science, like akins, broun & walsh, who LOST and are on the SCIENCE committee, certainly reflects how out of the mainstream those on the right are

    Polling In Swing States Shows, ‘Candidates Who Take A Pro-Climate-Action Stance Will Find It To Be A Vote Winner’

    a candidate advocating climate action splits the anti-science Tea Party extremists from independents and even some moderate Republicans who favor cutting carbon pollution.

    “Our polling shows that in swing states, Democratic candidates who take a pro-climate-action stance will find it to be a vote winner for them.” “The extra votes will come from independents.”

    Gallup: 65% of Americans Have More Guts Than Obama, Support ‘Imposing Mandatory Controls On CO2 Emissions’

  79. avatar
    Rickey November 21, 2012 at 3:26 pm #

    charo: I would phrase it that the Republicans did so poorly in turning out their voters.Obama had significantly less voters this time around.The machine behind the win prepared for that and zeroed in on the voters they needed.

    That’s a bit misleading, because the Obama campaign didn’t work to turn out the vote this time in states where he had no chance of winning and in states where he had no chance of losing, and voter turnout was down in the northeast because of the hurricane. Turnout for Obama in battleground states, however, was comparable to 2008. For example:

    In 2008 Obama got 2,708,685 votes in Ohio; in 2012 he got 2,698,320 votes.

    In 2008 Obama got 1,958,370 votes in Virginia; in 2012 he got 1,961,356 votes.

    In 2008 Obama got 531,884 votes in Nevada; in 2012 he got 531,363 votes.

    In 2008 Obama got 4,143,957 votes in Florida; in 2012 he got 4,235, 270 votes

    In Kansas, on the other hand, where Obama did not campaign, he received roughly 200,000 fewer votes in 2012 than he got in 2008. In Texas Obama got about 230,000 fewer votes this time around. He got about 100,000 few votes in Georgia.

    In New York Obama got 500,000 fewer votes this year, but he still won with the same percentage of the vote. A lot of people just didn’t bother to vote because it was a foregone conclusion that Obama would carry the state. And then there also was the Sandy effect. In New Jersey Obama’s vote went from 2,085,051 to 1,960,744, but he actually increased his percentage of the vote.

    Incidentally, Romney’s latest vote total has him slightly ahead of McCain’s total in 2008. However, he now trails Obama by more than 4 million votes. Ironically, there is a good chance that when the final numbers are tabulated Romney will have 47% of the vote.

  80. avatar
    charo November 21, 2012 at 5:04 pm #

    donna:
    charo: Also, the election results, at least to my understanding, indicates that climate change and creationists’ views were not that much of a factor.

    Sixty-eight percent of Americans see climate change as a “serious problem,” according to a poll released on Friday.

    The poll was conducted by Rasmussen on Monday, the DAY BEFORE the U.S. presidential election.

    The poll marks a huge shift for Americans. In 2009, a Rasmussen poll showed that only 46 percent of Americans thought climate change was a serious issue.

    Friday’s poll reflects one released in July by the Washington Post in which 60 percent of Americans surveyed said they believed climate change was real.

    being anti-science, like akins, broun & walsh, who LOST and are on the SCIENCE committee, certainly reflects how out of the mainstream those on the right are

    Polling In Swing States Shows, ‘Candidates Who Take A Pro-Climate-Action Stance Will Find It To Be A Vote Winner’

    a candidate advocating climate action splits the anti-science Tea Party extremists from independents and even some moderate Republicans who favor cutting carbon pollution.

    “Our polling shows that in swing states, Democratic candidates who take a pro-climate-action stance will find it to be a vote winner for them.” “The extra votes will come from independents.”

    Gallup: 65% of Americans Have More Guts Than Obama, Support ‘Imposing Mandatory Controls On CO2 Emissions’

    Does any of this comes from the 2012 Presidential election results?

  81. avatar
    charo November 21, 2012 at 5:09 pm #

    Rickey: Incidentally, Romney’s latest vote total has him slightly ahead of McCain’s total in 2008. However, he now trails Obama by more than 4 million votes. Ironically, there is a good chance that when the final numbers are tabulated Romney will have 47% of the vote.

    This is what CNN has currently:
    http://www.cnn.com/election/2012/results/main 51%-48%

    The new numbers have Romney besting McCain, but there are so many voters that could have been tapped. We are still a very divided country.

  82. avatar
    LW November 21, 2012 at 6:32 pm #

    charo: We are still a very divided country.

    I’m trying to suss out what that even means in this context. Do you mean “we are a country with a two-party system that has swung between popular vote margins of .5% to 26% over most of its history, but with one exception in the last ten elections has been below 10% and today seems to be at 3.2%”?

    Then, yes.

  83. avatar
    Keith November 21, 2012 at 6:39 pm #

    charo: A slim margin in four key states believed that Obama should be have another four years.

    I am curious where you got the idea that ’4 key states’ are all it took to re-elect President Obama?

    By my count the President won 27 ‘key states’ (including DC). The popular vote margins varied between them, sure, but very few were ‘slim’, and the Electoral College margin is approaching landslide proportions.

    If you want to address the closeness of the popular vote and the importance of specific ‘swing’ states, you need to define how close is close. Obama won 3 states by less than 4%, 2 by less than the national average of the vote (Romney won 1 state by less than 4%). Had Obama lost all 3 of those states, he still would have been reelected.

  84. avatar
    JPotter November 21, 2012 at 8:00 pm #

    63 million people believed Obama should have another 4 years, at least believed it enough to take the time to vote that way. Or believed keeping rMoney to himself was important enough to vote for Obama as an alternative.

  85. avatar
    Rickey November 21, 2012 at 8:38 pm #

    charo: This is what CNN has currently:
    http://www.cnn.com/election/2012/results/main 51%-48%

    The new numbers have Romney besting McCain, but there are so many voters that could have been tapped.We are still a very divided country.

    CNN’s numbers are out of date. These are the latest numbers:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjYj9mXElO_QdHpla01oWE1jOFZRbnhJZkZpVFNKeVE#gid=19

    As for turnout, Romney currently has 95,000 more votes in Ohio than McCain got in 2008. He also outperformed McCain in Wisconsin, Colorado, Florida, Michigan, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, and Virginia, yet he lost all of those states.

    Blaming the loss on turnout allows Republican to refuse to come to grips with their fundamental problems with the electorate.

  86. avatar
    Rickey November 21, 2012 at 8:48 pm #

    charo: .We are still a very divided country.

    I would argue that the country is less divided than it was in 2000 (when Bush lost the popular vote) and 2004 (when Bush won the popular vote by 3 million votes and the electoral vote by 35 votes).

    If you look at the chart which I linked to above, you will see that turnout in the battleground states was almost the same as it was in 2008. However, turnout in non-battleground states was down by 5.31%. Those numbers are subject to revision because in some states absentee ballots and provisional ballots are still being counted.

  87. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 21, 2012 at 9:54 pm #

    That’s cute.

    I have come to the conclusion that we should do away with the Electoral College and elect the president by popular vote.

    Rickey: Ironically, there is a good chance that when the final numbers are tabulated Romney will have 47% of the vote.

  88. avatar
    misha marinsky November 21, 2012 at 10:25 pm #

    charo: The whole age of the earth issue for me boils down to the issue of sola scriptura.

    There is a scientific explanation for everything.

    My maternal uncle (my mother’s brother) discovered Element 61:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/3342979/Cyborg-found-in-outer-space.html
    and
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_A._Marinsky

  89. avatar
    misha marinsky November 21, 2012 at 10:29 pm #

    charo: God and science co-exist in my belief system.

    So where was this god in Auschwitz, or at slave auctions, when children were sold from their parents?

  90. avatar
    Rickey November 21, 2012 at 10:29 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:

    I have come to the conclusion that we should do away with the Electoral College and elect the president by popular vote.

    Agreed. Republicans were making noise about it when it appeared that Romney would lose the electoral vote but might win the popular vote, but I don’t hear them talking about it now.

    Eliminating the Electoral College would virtually eliminate voter fraud as an issue. It’s one thing to stuff the ballot box in a few key districts, but everywhere?

    Election Day should be a holiday, and there should be at least two weeks of early voting in every state.

    The popular vote is the only way to make sure that every vote counts.

  91. avatar
    Rickey November 21, 2012 at 10:40 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    That’s cute.

    Romney is currently at 47.51% and the ballots which are still being counted are favoring Obama.

  92. avatar
    misha marinsky November 21, 2012 at 10:40 pm #

    Scientist: Rubio, Jindal and Cruz were not

    Piyush Howdy Doody Bobby Jindal was conceived in India, and was born in Louisiana 7 months after his parents arrived.

    As you know, conservatives believe in full civil rights, from the moment of conception. Jindal can never be NBC on several counts, starting with the fact he was a complete human being in India.

    Plus, his famous exorcism in which he smelled sulfur. That alone will provide endless material for late night comedians.

    Whenever someone claims they are possessed, they should see a Jewish psychiatrist.

  93. avatar
    Rickey November 21, 2012 at 10:55 pm #

    Keith:

    If you want to address the closeness of the popular vote and the importance of specific ‘swing’ states, you need to define how close is close. Obama won 3 states by less than 4%, 2 by less than the national average of the vote (Romney won 1 state by less than 4%). Had Obama lost all 3 of those states, he still would have been reelected.

    These are the latest percentages in the battleground states:

    Colorado: Obama 52%, Romney 46%
    Florida: Obama 50%, Romney 49%
    Iowa: Obama 52%. Romney 46%
    Michigan: Obama 54%, Romney 45%
    Minnesota: Obama 53%, Romney 45%
    Nevada: Obama 53%, Romney 46%
    New Hampshire: Obama 52%, Romney 46%
    North Carolina: Obama 48%, Romney 50%
    Ohio: Obama 50%, Romney 48%
    Pennsylvania: Obama 52%, Romney 47%
    Virginia: Obama 51%, Romney 47%
    Wisconsin: Obama 53%, Romney 46%

    As you pointed out, If Obama had lost the two close ones – Ohio and Florida – he still would have won the electoral vote, 285-253.

  94. avatar
    The Magic M November 22, 2012 at 5:48 am #

    LW: I’m trying to suss out what that even means in this context. Do you mean “we are a country with a two-party system that has swung between popular vote margins of .5% to 26% over most of its history, but with one exception in the last ten elections has been below 10% and today seems to be at 3.2%”?

    Indeed, most countries are in pretty much similar conditions, with two mainstream movements which split most of the popular vote rather evenly between them, even if they have more parties (which then tend to form coalitions).

    By that definition, almost every country in the world is “divided”, and that’s expected, given that most statistical values, including political affiliations, tend to distribute according to a Gaussian curve.

    An actual division takes more; it would require both sides to oppose one another not just on a polite ideological level (= disagreement) but on one that borders on enmity.

    Approx. 50% saying “I disagree with the way the administration is handling things” is normal; a similar number saying “the other side is deliberately destroying the country, we need a revolution or secession” is something different altogether.

    As long as the wingnuts are still a vocal but small minority, there is no reason to invoke images of division and irreconcilability.

  95. avatar
    misha marinsky November 22, 2012 at 6:55 am #

    charo: The idea presented on the thread that I quoted is that Rubio is a wacko based on that one answer…Obama basically said that he believes that creation days were not specific 24 hour periods, but that he felt it was open to discussion, and that he did not presume to know the answers.

    Hitchens was right. Religion poisons everything:

    Willful ignorance of science is a bipartisan value.
    http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/11/rubio_and_obama_and_the_age_of_earth_politicians_hedge_about_whether_universe.html

    Politicians aren’t scientists and they aren’t pastors, either. Instead they’ve learned to follow a different set of laws—those that dictate what to say, not what to think. That’s why Rubio and Obama sound so much alike. They’re taking notes from the same textbook.

  96. avatar
    Scientist November 22, 2012 at 7:27 am #

    The Magic M: Indeed, most countries are in pretty much similar conditions, with two mainstream movements which split most of the popular vote rather evenly between them, even if they have more parties (which then tend to form coalitions).

    Francois Hollande won the French Presidency this year by 51.64% – 48.36% (only the top 2 candidates from the first round are on the ballot in the 2nd round). That is a margin almost identical to Obama’s.

    Nor are a run of very close elections unprecdented in the US:

    year PV margin (%)

    1876 -3.2 (PV winner lost)
    1880 0.1
    1884 0.2
    1888 -1.0 (PV winner lost)
    1892 3.4
    1896 4.4
    1900 6.2

    The EVs were close in those years as well and there were clear geographic divisions, with the South solidly D and the Midwest and New England solidly R. New York was the main swing state. So the game was the same, only the players changed.

  97. avatar
    The Magic M November 22, 2012 at 8:24 am #

    misha marinsky: Politicians aren’t scientists

    The “I’m not an expert” answer is one that ideally comes when someone is asked a question that he really has neither an idea nor an opinion of – not one that comes only when someone wants to dodge an issue.

    Do we really want politicians who are either so dumb that they have to say “I will have to ask my advisors about that” or so dishonest that they have to say “I believe that issue is not totally settled” when faced with basic questions of well-settled science (such as the approximate age of the Earth, the development of species by evolution or the question what revolves around what)?

    (Actually I’m kinda surprised Obama made a statement similar to Rubio’s; I always thought he had less fear of offending the religious zealots, compare his open endorsement of same-sex marriage.)

  98. avatar
    G November 22, 2012 at 10:55 am #

    You are totally ignoring the different context between those the questions asked and the answers given in those two examples.

    Rubio was asked specifically a science question and chose to inject some bizarre wishy-washy religious pandering to fundamentalists and not address science.

    Obama was asked a question in a religious forum, directly about teaching religion to his own young daughters. It was not a science question it was a religious one. While you can critique his answer as hedging within that context, this is still completely an apples and oranges comparison between the two very different situations.

    The Magic M: (Actually I’m kinda surprised Obama made a statement similar to Rubio’s; I always thought he had less fear of offending the religious zealots, compare his open endorsement of same-sex marriage.)

  99. avatar
    donna November 22, 2012 at 11:15 am #

    charo: Does any of this comes from the 2012 Presidential election results?

    if you read any of the analyses of obama’s campaign machine, his “scientists” practically knew what people ate for breakfast it was THAT micro-targeted

    ALL of the credible pre-election polling on issues was reflected in the way people voted on election day -

    issues meaning women’s issues, immigration, how to deal with the deficit/taxes, etc

    por ejemplo:

    The GOP Talent Gap

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/11/the-gop-talent-gap/265333/

    How Obama’s data crunchers helped him win

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/07/tech/web/obama-campaign-tech-team/index.html

    re mitt and 47%

    Poetic justice: Romney likely to finish at 47 percent

    Dave Wasserman of the nonpartisan Cook Political Report says new votes in from Maryland put Romney at 47.56 percent. He predicts with certainty that with all of New York and California counted, Romney will end up below 47.5 percent of the vote.

    Rounded, of course, that would put the final tally at 51-47. Anticipating this moment, Markos Moulitsas has inaugurated the “Romney 47 percent watch.”

    At risk of piling on, a 47 percent finish would represent a perfect conclusion to the Romney political saga.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/poetic-justice-romney-likely-to-finish-at-47-percent/2012/11/20/8a84ad4e-3351-11e2-9cfa-e41bac906cc9_blog.html

    if you google: age earth

    4.54 billion years
    Earth, Age

  100. avatar
    LW November 22, 2012 at 1:52 pm #

    The Magic M: Approx. 50% saying “I disagree with the way the administration is handling things” is normal; a similar number saying “the other side is deliberately destroying the country, we need a revolution or secession” is something different altogether.

    +1

    Where are the false equivalency yappers, saying “Hey, you libs all wanted to secede because, Bush”? Because that didn’t happen.

  101. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 22, 2012 at 3:29 pm #

    I will admit to making some remark about moving to Australia when Reagan was elected, but I grew up.

    LW: Where are the false equivalency yappers, saying “Hey, you libs all wanted to secede because, Bush”? Because that didn’t happen.

  102. avatar
    Keith November 22, 2012 at 6:39 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I will admit to making some remark about moving to Australia when Reagan was elected, but I grew up.

    I did move to Australia when Reagan was elected.

    But not because Reagan was elected.

  103. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 23, 2012 at 8:04 am #

    Obama and Australian Prime Minister Gillard anti-birther mashup.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n30c1sfTZN8

    Keith: I did move to Australia when Reagan was elected.

  104. avatar
    Lani November 23, 2012 at 8:14 am #

    Orly has awakened from her turkey stupor and released a series of rants:

    “I wrote time and again that in our day and age, with development of medicine, it is shocking that there is no attending physician report, no records in any hospital of Obama being born, of his mother and grandmother passing away. This bizarre family without any valid IDs can be consistent with either some type of CIA made up family story or something made up by a foreign intelligence or some space alien family for crying out loud.

    In normal families there are valid genuine documents from a hospital, from attending physician, not cheap computer forgeries created 50 years later. I am wondering, how much people are being paid to cover it up and to harass and intimidate attorneys like me. …”
    http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/?p=363460

  105. avatar
    The Magic M November 23, 2012 at 8:24 am #

    So the “it does not exist because nobody paid attention to MEEEEEE and made all those efforts to show me documents that no politician has ever released” mindset never really dies.

    Lani: of his mother and grandmother passing away

    Not to mention his children’s DNA test results and the receipts for any flu shot he ever got.

  106. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 24, 2012 at 12:38 am #

    I dumped the US Flag widget because it was occasionally causing slow page load times.

    The birthers love to pretend to be patriotic by displaying American symbols amidst their attacks on the United States and its institutions. Well, I am much more patriotic than the birthers, as proven by my new flag, or more precisely 6 of them ;)

  107. avatar
    JPotter November 24, 2012 at 1:42 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I am much more patriotic than the birthers, as proven by my new flag, or more precisely 6 of them

    Indeed …. those are only a few of the ones flying in you front yard, right?

  108. avatar
    donna November 25, 2012 at 1:26 pm #

    How Obama-Hate Destroyed WorldNetDaily

    WND spewed a steady stream of anti-Obama smears and lies for more than four years — and Obama still won re-election. Instead, WND’s war against Obama obliterated any journalistic credibility it had.

    For the past four-plus years, WorldNetDaily has dedicated itself to the personal destruction of Barack Obama.

    It failed to stop Obama’s election in 2008, and Obama’s re-election last week demonstrates that the ensuing steady stream of Obama-hate at WND during Obama’s first term have also utterly failed.

    The cost of WND’s hate? The utter obliteration of what little credibility WND had.

    Let’s look back at WND’s increasingly pathological Obama obsession over the years.

    http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/stories/2012/wndobamafail.html

  109. avatar
    misha marinsky November 25, 2012 at 2:29 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I am much more patriotic than the birthers, as proven by my new flag, or more precisely 6 of them

    When I worked as an optician in Leesburg, VA, I drove along Route 15. There was a one room cabin along the highway, which always had a Confederate flag in front.

  110. avatar
    Sudoku November 25, 2012 at 3:05 pm #

    From the Department of Redundancy Department, “Mick” (Michael Voeltz, I believe) at Mario’s site has posted that he will be filling another lawsuit in FL.

    “Indeed you are correct Mr. Appuzo. SCOTUS has already ruled with precedence on what a nbC is (in Minor), so in reality it can never be a “political question”. US law is being ignored, but that is probably because there is an illegal POTUS in the chair, thus since he is the executor of the laws, there is no law and no Constitution. I am filing a contest of election in Fla (Fl. ss. 102.168(1)(3)(b)(5)(7). By the statutes I am guarenteed a hearing. I will be asking the court to alert the Florida Presidential Electors as to Obama’s eligibility. My action will be perfectly filed w/in the statutes, but I have no illusions. I will make them all lie in the light of history, and history will know who committed treason and sold out the Republic. There will be a public record of the treason committed. I realize that I am asking the judiciary to preserve the law and Constitution which no longer exists. Obama represents the death of the Republic.”
    http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=7466841558189356289&postID=968986705120566780

  111. avatar
    donna November 25, 2012 at 3:54 pm #

    mario et al should learn the english translation of the french “les parents”

    j’ai des parents en italie mais mes parents sont ici en amérique DOES NOT translate to i have some parents in italy but my parents are here in the us

    ANY 1st year french student would know the difference

  112. avatar
    Northland10 November 26, 2012 at 7:06 am #

    donna: ANY 1st year french student would know the difference

    And I suspect any 1st year law student would not cite authority that actually says the opposite of what the claim says it says (or was the losing side of an argument in the Congress, or….).

  113. avatar
    The Magic M November 26, 2012 at 7:22 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The birthers love to pretend to be patriotic by displaying American symbols amidst their attacks on the United States and its institutions.

    Shouldn’t they display flags with much less stars, given how much they support secessionist activities?

  114. avatar
    Thrifty November 26, 2012 at 12:17 pm #

    I used to believe that correlation implied causation. Then I took a statistics class, and now I don’t.

    Keith: I did move to Australia when Reagan was elected.

    But not because Reagan was elected.

  115. avatar
    The Magic M November 26, 2012 at 12:29 pm #

    Thrifty: I used to believe that correlation implied causation.

    Most people don’t even understand causation/causality (in a legal sense) to begin with.

    Example: A drives drunk on a priority street. B crashes into A, violating A’s priority.

    Many people would claim “A was drunk, therefore he shouldn’t have driven, therefore his actions were causal for the crash, therefore it was his fault by 50%/100%”.

    The actual causal logic is “Since the accident would’ve happened just the same if A had been sober (since it was B who violated traffic rules), A’s inebriety wasn’t causal for the crash, therefore it is B’s fault by 100%”.

    Because the proper test is “If either side had acted according to the rules, would the accident not have taken place?” and the proper test for A is “if he had been sober” and not “if he had stayed home because he was drunk”.

    (If the latter were the case, you could just run me over with your car as long as you can prove I crossed a red traffic light 20 minutes before so “therefore he couldn’t have been where I ran him over if he had obeyed traffic rules”.)

    I would guess that more then 90% of people will get this wrong.

  116. avatar
    donna November 26, 2012 at 9:13 pm #

    remember when taitz was running for senate in ca against, among others, diane feinstein?

    Feinstein’s record: 7.3 million votes

    Dianne Feinstein is the most popular senator in U.S. history.

    If you measure by votes won, that is. The latest, semi-official tally from the California secretary of state reports the Democratic senator won nearly 7.3 million votes on Nov. 6, breaking the previous Senate record held by her colleague, Democratic Sen. Barbara Boxer.

    Feinstein won 7,297,972 votes on Election Day – 342,244 more votes than Boxer in her 2004 re-election romp.

    As a senator from the nation’s most populous state, Feinstein’s vote totals will always be higher than most of her colleagues. But the combination of presidential year turnout and a landslide re-election win (62-38) amped up her totals this year.

  117. avatar
    Keith November 27, 2012 at 12:08 am #

    The Magic M: Because the proper test is “If either side had acted according to the rules, would the accident not have taken place?” and the proper test for A is “if he had been sober” and not “if he had stayed home because he was drunk”.

    But the correct answer for the “if he had been sober” is that the accident would not have occurred because nobody would be on that street at that time of the day if they were sober. So A is partly at fault ;)

  118. avatar
    Keith November 27, 2012 at 12:41 am #

    Wow : Donald Trump’s Kids Told Their Father To Mitigate Obama Bashing: Report

    Now if only those close to Orly would take the hint.

  119. avatar
    The Magic M November 27, 2012 at 5:30 am #

    Keith: But the correct answer for the “if he had been sober” is that the accident would not have occurred because nobody would be on that street at that time of the day if they were sober.

    No, that’s the fallacy. If A had been sober sitting in that car at that very moment, the accident would’ve happened just the same. Because it was not his inebriety that caused the accident, not even by 1%, since B would’ve hit a sober driver just the same.
    A’s violation (driving drunk) caused him to be there, but it did not cause the accident.
    “Being there” is simply not *causing* the accident, otherwise anyone would carry a partial blame for any accident he was involved in, even if he did nothing wrong.

  120. avatar
    Keith November 27, 2012 at 10:28 am #

    The Magic M: No, that’s the fallacy. If A had been sober sitting in that car at that very moment, the accident would’ve happened just the same. Because it was not his inebriety that caused the accident, not even by 1%, since B would’ve hit a sober driver just the same.
    A’s violation (driving drunk) caused him to be there, but it did not cause the accident.
    “Being there” is simply not *causing* the accident, otherwise anyone would carry a partial blame for any accident he was involved in, even if he did nothing wrong.

    And the problem with that concept is…? ;)

  121. avatar
    Keith November 27, 2012 at 10:45 am #

    Keith: And the problem with that concept is…?

    The Magic M: No, that’s the fallacy. If A had been sober sitting in that car at that very moment, the accident would’ve happened just the same. Because it was not his inebriety that caused the accident, not even by 1%, since B would’ve hit a sober driver just the same.
    A’s violation (driving drunk) caused him to be there, but it did not cause the accident.
    “Being there” is simply not *causing* the accident, otherwise anyone would carry a partial blame for any accident he was involved in, even if he did nothing wrong.

    P.S. You misquoted me. You left off the ” ;)

  122. avatar
    The Magic M November 27, 2012 at 12:17 pm #

    Yes, maybe I’m too tired, but I just don’t get it…

  123. avatar
    Thrifty November 27, 2012 at 2:49 pm #

    Wrong response. I guess you’re not an XKCD fan. :(

    The Magic M: Most people don’t even understand causation/causality (in a legal sense) to begin with.

  124. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 27, 2012 at 4:03 pm #

    I have removed “President Barack Obama 2012 the Out of Office Countdown Wall Calendar” from the recommended books list.

  125. avatar
    JPotter November 27, 2012 at 5:48 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: President Barack Obama 2012 the Out of Office Countdown Wall Calendar

    But why … ? It’s now a collector’s item ;)

    As with the “In the Year 2000″ skit, it’s all the funnier post post annum. And, like “Dewey Defeats Truman”, will grow more poignant over time!

  126. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG November 27, 2012 at 6:02 pm #

    Oh! I remember those!
    “In the year 2000, zombies will roam the earth and eat the flesh of the living. When there is no more flesh, they will eat dirt. When there is no more dirt, they will eat at Olive Garden!”

  127. avatar
    RuhRoh November 27, 2012 at 8:12 pm #

    Way off topic, if I may. I’ve been invited to an event honoring Sandy volunteers, and I feel really weird about going. It’s not as though I volunteered in an effort to be recognized, and this is probably going to be in the paper as it is the local shelter event. And it’s not as though I pulled someone from a burning or flooded building or did CPR or something. I donated toiletries, showed up, I cooked and cleaned, entertained the little kids, sorted a trailer. Nothing “above and beyond”.

    Would you go to some ceremony and get put in the paper? That just seems….odd to me. Maybe that’s just me though?

  128. avatar
    JPotter November 27, 2012 at 9:09 pm #

    The Magic M: Shouldn’t they display flags with much less stars, given how much they support secessionist activities?

    See, “State Flag of Texas” for greatly reduced stars and stripes.

    (ok, ok, blatant Texas bashing. Many states have stars on their flags, several have “lone stars” … but Texas’ really does resemble a secessionist’s dream American flag! ;) …. yes, yes, with good reason, but seriously, it’s been 156 years, move on already …. )

  129. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 27, 2012 at 9:22 pm #

    Absolutely, They also serve who cook and clean.

    RuhRoh: I donated toiletries, showed up, I cooked and cleaned, entertained the little kids, sorted a trailer. Nothing “above and beyond”.

    Would you go to some ceremony and get put in the paper? That just seems….odd to me. Maybe that’s just me though?

  130. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 27, 2012 at 9:22 pm #

    Ah, but we have the moon!

    http://www.theodora.com/flags/state_flags/south_carolina_state_flag.gif

    JPotter: Many states have stars on their flags,

  131. avatar
    Northland10 November 27, 2012 at 9:25 pm #

    RuhRoh: And it’s not as though I pulled someone from a burning or flooded building or did CPR or something. I donated toiletries, showed up, I cooked and cleaned, entertained the little kids, sorted a trailer. Nothing “above and beyond”.

    Would you go to some ceremony and get put in the paper? That just seems….odd to me. Maybe that’s just me though?

    Blessed are those who cooked and cleaned, because it needed to be done.

    As for going to the ceremony, I can understand your reluctance as I would feel the same. For you, the true value in this is if it could inspire more to do the same the next time it is needed. It can remind others, that in times of trouble we need not only those who can pull someone from a burning or flooded building but we need those who show up, cook and clean, entertain the kids and do those jobs that just need to be done.

  132. avatar
    RuhRoh November 27, 2012 at 9:41 pm #

    Thanks, guys. My brother also pointed out to me that as this is the local shelter, maybe the beneficiaries feel a need to give a formal sort of thanks. I would feel bad if I left them feeling beholden in some way, as that was certainly not my intention.

    You’re all correct. If everyone did just a little as they were able, that would be wonderful. I guess I shouldn’t poo-poo it. But really, my need to just do something to help out was probably almost equal in some ways to the needs of the shelter inhabitants. I feel thankful that there was an organized effort to which I could lend my time and effort. I guess that’s what bugs me about this. I know that I was helped by being allowed to volunteer so it seems weird to be thanked in such a formal way, as though it were totally selfless and of no benefit to myself.

  133. avatar
    donna November 28, 2012 at 10:08 am #

    Orly and reading comprehension

    Apparently upset that Time Magazine did not consider HER as ‘man of the year’, Orly shows ‘outrage’

    The sign of moral degradation during Obama regime: Sandra Fluke, a lazy shameless moocher, who wants others to pay for a box of condoms for her, is the “Time” person of the year. Gone are the times of Susan B. Anthony, Thurgood Marshall, Thomas Edison and Nicolas Tesla. The main virtue: being a shameless moocher

    As usual, Orly is wrong, Sandra Fluke is one of 40 people who have been nominated and the final decision will come from voters.

    The daughter of a conservative Christian pastor, Sandra Fluke, 31, became a women’s-rights activist in college and continued her advocacy as a law student at Georgetown. After she complained about being denied a chance to testify at a Republican-run House hearing on insurance coverage for birth control, Rush Limbaugh called Fluke a “slut.” Democrats and many Republicans reacted with outrage, and the left made Limbaugh’s slur Exhibit A in what they called a GOP “war on women.” Fluke, meanwhile, weathered the attention with poise and maturity and emerged as a political celebrity. Democrats gave her a national-convention speaking slot as part of their push to make reproductive rights a central issue in the 2012 presidential campaign — one that helped Barack Obama trounce Mitt Romney among single women on Election Day. [Time, 11/26/12]

    The narrow minded and hate-filled right wing media was quick to respond. And they wonder why they lost…

    http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/educating-the-confused-orly-and-reading-comprehension/

    AND I ADD: did anyone see who the house named as (19) committee chairs?

    ALL WHITE & ALL MALE

  134. avatar
    The Magic M November 28, 2012 at 11:03 am #

    donna: AND I ADD: did anyone see who the house named as (19) committee chairs?

    ALL WHITE & ALL MALE

    That’s probably their version of “affirmative action”…

  135. avatar
    donna November 28, 2012 at 1:16 pm #

    The Magic M: That’s probably their version of “affirmative action”…

    yeah the dying white male majority is in the minority

    the photo array is TELLING not to mention the radicals they tapped – my FAVE is the “SCIENCE” committee head tho Hensarling on financial services runs a close second

    Meet The Radical Republicans Chairing Important House Committees

    http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/11/28/1180181/meet-the-radical-republicans-chairing-important-house-committees/

    and to follow up on judson’s op-ed in wing nuts daily (which they had to correct due to “discovered” info in the constitution), Tea Partiers Refuse to Give Up Their Electoral College Scheme to Elect Romney

    http://www.politicususa.com/tea-partiers-refuse-give-electoral-college-scheme-elect-romney.html

  136. avatar
    LW November 28, 2012 at 4:33 pm #

    I noticed this heartwarming story on the Twitter feed:

    The Dangers of Donald: Macy’s popularity plummets for failing to dump the Trump Collection” (Adweek)

    Remember that so-called “birther” issue from the presidential campaign? Remember all that press coverage of Donald Trump demanding that Barack Obama turn over his birth certificate—then doubting that the one the president did turn over was authentic? Remember the national sigh of relief when the whole issue finally just went away?

    Well, it hasn’t. At least, not for Macy’s.

    According to figures just released by YouGov BrandIndex, Macy’s loyalty rating among female consumers tumbled 45 percent—hardly tidings of comfort and joy as the holiday shopping season moves into high gear. Having enjoyed a score of 31 back in November, Macy’s is now slumming in the 17 range. Just for the sake of comparison, J.C. Penney’s score is 38. Ouch. The dip owes itself to The Donald—specifically, Macy’s refusal to pull the Trump Signature Collection from store shelves.

    There’s no telling if the nation’s No. 2 retailer is surprised by the popularity plummet, but it shouldn’t be. In November, protestors massed outside Macy’s Herald Square flagship, demanding that the store discontinue Trump’s signature line of pink power ties and French-cuffed dress shirts (just the thing to wear to your next leveraged buyout). The demonstrators, some of whom made a show of taking scissors to their Macy’s credit cards, claimed that Trump’s bleating over Obama’s birth-certificate constituted racism [...]

    Of course, Adweek is no doubt one of those leftist commie pinko Muslim fascist rags…

  137. avatar
    donna November 28, 2012 at 5:35 pm #

    LW:

    At press time, many of the Trump Collection items were wearing a “Extra 20 percent Off” tag.

    Keep watching, shoppers: Soon, those tags might say “Clearance.”

    or seen at the dollar store

  138. avatar
    Greenfinches November 28, 2012 at 5:40 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I have come to the conclusion that we should do away with the Electoral College and elect the president by popular vote.

    One consequence of this would be that there will be no prompt decision – you would surely not know even now what the 2012 result was?

    That may be fine and dandy, but it is an issue to address….

    I must say the photo of a dishevelled rMoney putting fuel in his own car was a treasure, and you would deprive me of it!

  139. avatar
    Keith November 28, 2012 at 5:59 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Ah, but we have the moon!

    http://www.theodora.com/flags/state_flags/south_carolina_state_flag.gif

    So what’s that Islamic symbol doing on the flag?

  140. avatar
    donna November 28, 2012 at 6:53 pm #

    for those interested, here’s a link for the election results which are ongoing & frequently updated- the spreadsheet is quite comprehensive

    currently

    obama 65,063,274 ……….. 50.90%

    mitt 60,560,658 ………… 47.38% ……… mitt’s wish the 47%

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AjYj9mXElO_QdHpla01oWE1jOFZRbnhJZkZpVFNKeVE&toomany=true#gid=19

    other trivia

    bush in 2004 with 286 electoral votes and a lower margin of victory: Let me put it to you this way: I earned capital in the campaign, political capital, and now I intend to spend it. It is my style. That’s what happened in the — after the 2000 election, I earned some capital. I’ve earned capital in this election — and I’m going to spend it for what I told the people I’d spend it on

    Obama’s Margin of Victory is Now Bigger than Both of George W. Bush’s Wins (and more)

    http://www.politicususa.com/obamas-margin-victory-bigger-george-w-bushs-wins.html

  141. avatar
    gorefan November 29, 2012 at 2:48 pm #

    Florida election challenge?

    From the comments section by Mick on November 27, 2012:

    FILED IN Fla.:

    STATEMENT OF FACTS
    7. As a Florida elector, claimant has taken an oath to “protect and defend the Constitution of the United States” (Art. 6 s. 3 Florida Constitution).

    Vattel, Vattel, Vattel, ect.

    18. The U.S Supreme Court’s definition of the term of art natural born Citizen mirrors Vattel’s “The Law of Nations” in The Venus, 12 US 253, 289 (1814), Wong Kim Ark, 169 US 649, 679, 680 (1898), and with precedence in Minor v. Happersett, 88 US 162, 167, 168. Thus the definition stated therein is the law of the United States.

    http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=44353

  142. avatar
    gorefan November 29, 2012 at 3:13 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Ah, but we have the moon!

    Not if the CIA had their way.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2238242/Cold-War-era-U-S-plan-bomb-moon-nuclear-bomb-revealed.html

  143. avatar
    Sudoku November 29, 2012 at 7:12 pm #

    Yes, he has the same thing on Mario’s POS. I posted something about it the other day. I am pretty sure he is Michael Voeltz, of Voeltz v Obama, I, II, and the appeal.

    Sudoku: From the Department of Redundancy Department, “Mick” (Michael Voeltz, I believe) at Mario’s site has posted that he will be filling another lawsuit in FL.

    gorefan: Florida election challenge?

    From the comments section by Mick on November 27, 2012:

  144. avatar
    gorefan November 29, 2012 at 7:45 pm #

    Sudoku: I am pretty sure he is Michael Voeltz

    Has there been a ruling in the appeal?

    How does he overcome the two previous Florida court cases?

  145. avatar
    Sudoku November 29, 2012 at 8:03 pm #

    As far as I know, nothing is happening on the appeal. I haven’t seen anything and couldn’t find anything quickly. IIRC, he filed the second case before he appealed the first.

    I just checked, he has filed a new one today! SMH.

    http://judicial.clerk.leon.fl.us/image_orders.asp?caseid=64293606&jiscaseid=&defseq=&chargeseq=&dktid=39501469&dktsource=CRTV

    gorefan: Has there been a ruling in the appeal?

    How does he overcome the two previous Florida court cases?

  146. avatar
    Keith November 29, 2012 at 9:40 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Ah, but we have the moon!

    http://www.theodora.com/flags/state_flags/south_carolina_state_flag.gif

    As an exercise in “Stultividus-Vanus Analysis (SVA)” ® I have researched the flags of the 13 original states to demonstrate beyond all doubt that the United States, when founded was NOT a Christian Nation.

    The symbology used by the founding fathers is clearly the most direct route to their secret intentions for the nation. Published words are the public ‘propaganda’ ideas, meant only for the ears of the unenlightened, the foolish, the easily led. Symbology however is the ‘secret knowledge’ to be handed down to the enlightened ones (the Illuminatti) in each generation. And since we know that all of the founding fathers were 33 degree Masons, secret knowlege and coded messages were their stock in trade.

    So here is my SVA of the flags of the 13 Original States:

    Connecticut: Grape Vines (Orgiastic)
    Clearly the Founding Fathers in Connecticut were advertising their state as the party state. Although they had a bit of competition from Delaware and Maryland, the almost complete lack of any other symbology on their flag indicates they were ‘all in’ on the good time charlie circuit.

    Delaware: Bull (Pagan Sacrifice; also associated with the moon: Islam) ; Soldier threatening Farmer (obvious);
    These Founding Fathers could not have been more non-Christian. The bull is one of the most important of the pagan symbols, crossing over both Sun worship (Zoroastrianism) and Moon worship (Islam). The bull is also associated with Bacchanalia and could be indicating that want some of the party business being touted by Connecticut. That they would stoop to military threats on the farming class in order to support their dark rites and orgiastic excesses is, in my opinion, just plain sadistic.

    Georgia: No ‘official’ flag until the Civil War (secrecy, penal colony)
    The Founding Fathers continued to use Georgia as a Penal Colony, just as our colonial masters had before the ‘revolution’. Jails (or gaols as they were called back then) don’t need flags to advertise their services, the ‘justice’ courts know what they are their for.

    Maryland: Heraldic Symbols for 2 land owning families; (Aristocracy; Exclusiveness; Royalists); Psychedelic pattern (Orgiastic, Libertines)
    Maryland’s Founding Fathers seems to be making no secrecy of the fact that it was controlled by the foreign aristocracy, in particular Calvert family (black and yellow). After the Civil War, a second family, the Crossland family (red and white) wrested some control from the Calverts and forced their colors to be included on the flag.

    Massachusetts Bay: Single Star (Communism); Indian (‘oppressed’ proletariat); arm with sword (violent suppression)
    The Communist Founding Fathers of Massachusetts Bay encoded their agenda of the violent suppression of the people and their forced subjugation to the communist ideal.

    New Hampshire: ; Rising Sun (foreign control); Warship (violent suppression)
    New Hampshire’s Fathers encoded their continuing faith in British Rule by depicting a warship coming out of the rising sun (the East, Europe, Britain) to impose its will on the people.

    New Jersey: Severed horse’s head (Illuminati/Mafia)
    What could be clearer about New Jersey’s secret societies, their hidden agenda, and the implied threat if they were ‘crossed’ than a severed horse’s head? Associated with organized crime in the 20th century, it was borrowed from the State Flag for just that reason.

    New York: Rising Sun (Foreign Control); American Eagle threatened by Sword (Restrictions on freedom); Commercial vessel threatened by warship (Violently enforced restrictions on Capitalism);
    New York’s founders published the same message that they continue to publish today. What’s mine is mine, what’s yours is mine, and if you have any complaints about it, discuss it with my friends, Smith, Wesson, and Howitzer.

    North Carolina: Single Star (Communism)
    There doesn’t need to be much said about this. A single star and a red fly. Pinkos.

    Pennsylvania: Bound horses (BDSM) crushing the state seal and threatening the American Eagle (violent suppression of sovereignty and freedom)
    Pennsylvania seems to be competing for the perversion party market. Tying up animals for sexual gratification is just sick. Blatantly showing their agenda is the moral and political destruction of its citizenry shows hubris beyond measure.

    Rhode Island and Providence Plantations: “HOPE” crushed by the anchor of depression, Stars forming an “O” (later adopted by Obama campaign as a propaganda tool)
    The Rhode Island Fathers must have been very depressing individuals, or perhaps they were just telling the people that there was no hope of ever beating them out of their God given right to rule over them.

    South Carolina: Crescent moon (Islam)
    I’m not sure why they didn’t just go ahead and name the place South Carolinistan.

    Virginia: Woman violently suppressing a Man (Feminazi)
    Is there any more blatant advertisement for the Feminazi cause? It would be an interesting historical investigation to find out why the Feminazi’s in Virginia thought they could get away with such blatant publicity, even while the other states carefully covered their tracks.

    Conclusion: there was clearly nothing Christian about the Founding Fathers or their goals for their States or the Country as a whole. They were pagan/communist/Islamic/orgiastic/hippie/aristocratic/feminazi/violent/militaristic/depressed/bondage freaks.

  147. avatar
    gorefan November 29, 2012 at 10:24 pm #

    Sudoku: I just checked, he has filed a new one today!

    Klayman again!

    Voeltz v. Obama – Act III

    It is rare that a sequel is as sucessful as the original. And the original was a total failure.

    Thanks for the link.

  148. avatar
    JPotter November 29, 2012 at 11:35 pm #

    Here Come the Black Helicopters!: UN Global Governance and the Loss of Freedom[Hardcover]

    by …..

    Dick Morris

    I kid ye not.

    Good stuff. My new most wanted xmas present. Please buy used. And not from a wingnut.