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And the judge was…

Birther version:

…dismissive, intimidating, belittling and assumed the role of the defense attorney…

Obot version:

…fully prepared, unfailingly polite and infinitely patient…

The former is the allegation of birther investigator Susan Daniels, speaking of judge David L. Fuhry in Ohio. She further alleges that the transcript of the hearing has been altered at the direction of the judge to hide his misconduct. The Obot version comes from Mary, a commenter at The Fogbow, who attended the hearing.

Normally if the judge rules against you, you’re wrong. In this case, according to Daniels, it means “the judge should be removed from the bench” and that is what Daniels is demanding in a filing before the Supreme Court of Ohio Disciplinary Council.

 

Private Investigator Formal Complaint Against Judge Fuhry – Obama Social Security Number Case – by ObamaRelease YourRecords

Daniels is raising a ruckus about the alleged doctored transcript, however the specific errors she claims hardly reflect negatively on the judge. I couldn’t find the actual transcript online.

Read more:

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40 Responses to And the judge was…

  1. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG March 2, 2013 at 2:30 pm #

    “I didn’t get my way! You’re mean for not giving me what I wanted!”
    My three and a half year old does that.

  2. avatar
    Fuhry Us March 2, 2013 at 3:30 pm #

    Fuhry wins the Malihi Prize!

  3. avatar
    donna March 2, 2013 at 4:12 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: My three and a half year old does that.

    let’s issue a prize to see how long birthers can hold their breaths before they die – or perhaps to see how long they can stomp their feet and break joints – the more joints/bones broken, the greater the prize

    there has been no fear injected into the birthers – they have no shame after 7-pages from a judge on how to perfect service …………… 7-pages of instructions to an attorney no less

    there has been no prosecution for someone illegally accessing e-verify while 9 people in iowa were prosecuted and convicted for illegally accessing obama’s loan records …. loans only applicable to americans

    (Iowa: 9 Indicted for Accessing Obama’s Student-Loan Records)

    running from court to court and state to state has allowed them to continue their escapades which have all failed

    jordan retained a former judge (who was not re-elected) to continue her “poor me” rant for a modification – the birther version is that the entire ruling was incorrect ignoring the application for modification

    they post so and so judge/court will “hear” their application (implying “hearing”) when there is no “hearing” scheduled and when there is no hearing, they are denied “discovery” and the judge/court is at fault

    it’s pitiful!!!!!

  4. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 2, 2013 at 4:24 pm #

    I’m not quite sure what you mean by that. Malihi, operating under a different set of rules for an administrative law court, allowed Orly Taitz to present evidence that would have been inadmissible in Fuhry’s court. So Malihi let evidence in, all of it, and perhaps Fuhry didn’t. I haven’t seen the transcript so I don’t know what Fuhry did. I was in Court for the Malihi hearing, and its transcript is online.

    It is an interesting comparison because there was no defense in either case. Malihi offered default to the plaintiffs, but they wanted a trial on the merits. Malihi after considering their evidence didn’t find any merits.

    I am thinking about writing an article called “The Birther Rules of Evidence.”

    Fuhry Us: Fuhry wins the Malihi Prize!

  5. avatar
    donna March 2, 2013 at 4:59 pm #

    georgia:

    Regarding the witnesses presented by Orly Taitz, Judge Malihi found a definite lack of substance, writing:

    The Court finds testimony of the witnesses, as well as the exhibits tendered, to be of little, if any, probative value, and thus wholly insufficient to support Plaintiffs’ allegations.

    The judge criticized Orly Taitz for failing to establish that her witnesses were indeed qualified to give expert testimony. In Georgia, Malihi wrote, “the unqualified testimony of the witness [is] not competent evidence.” He said: “neither witness was properly qualified or tendered as an expert in birth records, forged documents or document manipulation.”

    Judge Malihi then went on to address the claims of plaintiffs Swensson and Powell that Barack Obama is not a natural born citizen because his father was not a US Citizen.

    In 2009, the Indiana Court of Appeals (“Indiana Court”) addressed facts and issues similar to those before this court. [Ankeny] v. Governor, 916 N.E.2d (Ind. Ct. App. 2009). … The Indiana Court rejected the argument that Mr. Obama was ineligible, stating that children born within the United States are natural born citizens, regardless of the citizenship of their parents. … This Court finds the decision and analysis of [Ankeny] persuasive.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/02/malihi-obama-eligible/

  6. avatar
    G March 2, 2013 at 5:29 pm #

    Agreed. Birthers have the biggest false sense of entitlement and sore-loser spoiled brattiness that I’ve ever seen.

    donna:
    Andrew Vrba, PmG: My three and a half year old does that.

    let’s issue a prize to see how long birthers can hold their breaths before they die – or perhaps to see how long they can stomp their feet and break joints – the more joints/bones broken, the greater the prize

    there has been no fear injected into the birthers – they have no shame after 7-pages from a judge on how to perfect service …………… 7-pages of instructions to an attorney no less

    there has been no prosecution for someone illegally accessing e-verify while 9 people in iowa were prosecuted and convicted for illegally accessing obama’s loan records …. loans only applicable to americans

    (Iowa: 9 Indicted for Accessing Obama’s Student-Loan Records)

    running from court to court and state to state has allowed them to continue their escapades which have all failed

    jordan retained a former judge (who was not re-elected) to continue her “poor me” rant for a modification – the birther version is that the entire ruling was incorrect ignoring the application for modification

    they post so and so judge/court will “hear” their application (implying “hearing”) when there is no “hearing” scheduled and when there is no hearing, they are denied “discovery” and the judge/court is at fault

    it’s pitiful!!!!!

  7. avatar
    Kiwiwriter March 2, 2013 at 6:06 pm #

    If the case goes against birthers, the court is rigged. It’s that simple.

    Eric Hoffer said that “true believers” think that all the world is really on their side, and that they only lose when the dark forces “get to” their opponents. They can’t accept the fact that 90 percent of the rest of the world thinks they are idiots.

  8. avatar
    G March 2, 2013 at 6:25 pm #

    Yep. Pretty much. …My only quibble with those stats is that, in many cases, it probably even approaches closer to 99% of the rest of the world, which views such delusional and obstinate “true believers” as idiots…

    Part of it is also a false sense of spoiled entitlement by folks who simply can’t maturely handle ever being wrong or not getting what they want, no matter how unrealistic it is…

    Kiwiwriter:
    If the case goes against birthers, the court is rigged. It’s that simple.

    Eric Hoffer said that “true believers” think that all the world is really on their side, and that they only lose when the dark forces “get to” their opponents. They can’t accept the fact that 90 percent of the rest of the world thinks they are idiots.

  9. avatar
    Kiwiwriter March 2, 2013 at 6:43 pm #

    Problem is, I would have said 99 percent, but there are an incredible amount of nutters in the world, and they seem to have enough money to fork over to keep Orly and the con men in business.

    This has been true forever…from the clowns who impersonated King Sebastian in Portugal in the 1500s to David Duke gambling away his donations at Mississippi riverboats in the 1990s. Duke at least went to jail for the income tax violations. But there is no shortage of donations and money for these jerks, and that’s why I said “10 percent.” Investigators should really follow the money on Ms. Taitz…in both directions.

    As for the entitlement…that’s very huge in America. I think a lot about the white rednecks with their 8th-grade educations, meth labs in the back, and extensive criminal records, who insist that they are racially superior to Whitney Moore Young, Zora Neale Hurston, Garrett A. Morgan, Maya Angelou, Neil De Grasse Tyson, and Colin Powell by virtue of the melanin content in their skins. Right.

    Our society has really made an impression on people that they are entitled to everything they see on television, without working for it. But I suspect that has always existed in humanity…it’s why we fork over money to psychics and fall for get-rich-quick schemes.

  10. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG March 2, 2013 at 6:59 pm #

    Thats the difference between a pre-schooler and a birther though.
    A pre-schooler can be taught, and they are far easier to potty train!

  11. avatar
    misha marinsky March 2, 2013 at 8:40 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: A pre-schooler can be taught, and they are far easier to potty train!

    Have fun house training an Afghan hound.

  12. avatar
    Kris March 3, 2013 at 12:06 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:

    I am thinking about writing an article called “The Birther Rules of Evidence.”

    And thus you’ll write the shortest book in the history of the universe.

  13. avatar
    G March 3, 2013 at 1:58 am #

    Ah, I see your point – looking at nutters “collectively”, as opposed to each crazy claim belief separately. Considering that the paranoid mindset tends to latch onto a whole host of crazy…and rarely sticks with just one illogical myth… yeah, I’d say looking at a broader interrelationship of sheer nuttery makes the 10% figure seem much more sensible…

    Kiwiwriter: Problem is, I would have said 99 percent, but there are an incredible amount of nutters in the world, and they seem to have enough money to fork over to keep Orly and the con men in business.

    This has been true forever…from the clowns who impersonated King Sebastian in Portugal in the 1500s to David Duke gambling away his donations at Mississippi riverboats in the 1990s. Duke at least went to jail for the income tax violations. But there is no shortage of donations and money for these jerks, and that’s why I said “10 percent.” Investigators should really follow the money on Ms. Taitz…in both directions.

  14. avatar
    G March 3, 2013 at 2:02 am #

    Yeah, sadly there is too much celebration of “ugly american syndrome” as well as willful ignorance in our culture…

    …not to mention that it seems to be easier for shameful, crass and ignorant behaviors to seek a level of fame and fortune at “entertainment” (see Jersey Shore, Honey Boo Boo, folks on any show like Jerry Springer…etc, etc, etc) than it does for there to be any sense of actual “shame”…

    Kiwiwriter: As for the entitlement…that’s very huge in America. I think a lot about the white rednecks with their 8th-grade educations, meth labs in the back, and extensive criminal records, who insist that they are racially superior to Whitney Moore Young, Zora Neale Hurston, Garrett A. Morgan, Maya Angelou, Neil De Grasse Tyson, and Colin Powell by virtue of the melanin content in their skins. Right.

    Our society has really made an impression on people that they are entitled to everything they see on television, without working for it. But I suspect that has always existed in humanity…it’s why we fork over money to psychics and fall for get-rich-quick schemes.

  15. avatar
    aarrgghh March 3, 2013 at 3:36 am #

    G: Yeah, sadly there is too much celebration of “ugly american syndrome” as well as willful ignorance in our culture…

    “celebration” may be an understatement. in freeper gulch every day is the fourth of july:

    re_nortex: “McCarthyite!”

    That’s a label to wear with pride along with intolerant, racist, gun nut, anti-choice, Bible thumper, homophobe and other pejoratives that the left uses to diminish Conservatives. One that I personally consider a real badge of honor is: Southern, white, heterosexual, gun-toting, right-wing, born-again Christian male. To the commies, that’s Kryptonite but it describes real Americans, the ones who have a plan of salvation for our country.

    may the spaghetti monster deem us worth saving from our saviors.

  16. avatar
    The Magic M March 3, 2013 at 5:30 am #

    Kiwiwriter: Our society has really made an impression on people that they are entitled to everything they see on television, without working for it.

    A couple of years ago, our chancellor said that nobody is entitled to democracy – which of course caused a huge uproar in the wingnut scene. (Of course she meant that democracy is something that was and must be fought for, not something that comes along by divine intervention.)

  17. avatar
    Kiwiwriter March 3, 2013 at 9:27 pm #

    G:
    Ah, I see your point – looking at nutters “collectively”, as opposed to each crazy claim belief separately.Considering that the paranoid mindset tends to latch onto a whole host of crazy…and rarely sticks with just one illogical myth… yeah, I’d say looking at a broader interrelationship of sheer nuttery makes the 10% figure seem much more sensible…

    Right…I’m simply putting all the birthers in the same cauldron.

  18. avatar
    Kiwiwriter March 3, 2013 at 9:31 pm #

    G:
    Yeah, sadly there is too much celebration of “ugly american syndrome” as well as willful ignorance in our culture…

    …not to mention that it seems to be easier for shameful, crass and ignorant behaviors to seek a level of fame and fortune at “entertainment” (see Jersey Shore, Honey Boo Boo, folks on any show like Jerry Springer…etc, etc, etc) than it does for there to be any sense of actual “shame”…

    Well, it enrages me when I talk with people who know who Snooki and Kim Kardashian are, but cannot name their Congressman and Senators, nor know the name: “Winston Churchill.” There was a thread on Twitter late last year of people being amazed to discover that the movie “Titanic” was a true story, and not a romance novel. The only things fictional in that picture were the insipid love triangle and the cowardice of the ship’s crew…most of the crew died with the ship. People were also asking “Who was Rodney King” and “Who is Steve Jobs?”

    And some clown who gets his news straight from “Entertainment Tonight” and “World Net Daily” thinks that he is smarter than Neil De Grasse Tyson….

  19. avatar
    Kiwiwriter March 3, 2013 at 9:33 pm #

    The Magic M: A couple of years ago, our chancellor said that nobody is entitled to democracy – which of course caused a huge uproar in the wingnut scene. (Of course she meant that democracy is something that was and must be fought for, not something that comes along by divine intervention.)

    People born into a country take it for granted…it’s always interested me that immigrants to America are often more patriotic and knowledgeable about the US than native-borns. Immigrants made a choice to come here, and they take it seriously.

    I saw a similar thing in New Zealand…the native-born Kiwis in Christchurch knew less about Charles Hazlitt Upham than I did, and he was a Christchurch native. Upham was the only combatant to ever receive TWO Victoria Crosses.

  20. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 3, 2013 at 10:52 pm #

    I try diligently to forget mine.

    Kiwiwriter: Well, it enrages me when I talk with people who know who Snooki and Kim Kardashian are, but cannot name their Congressman and Senators,

  21. avatar
    Keith March 3, 2013 at 10:55 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: I saw a similar thing in New Zealand…the native-born Kiwis in Christchurch knew less about Charles Hazlitt Upham than I did, and he was a Christchurch native. Upham was the only combatant to ever receive TWO Victoria Crosses.

    The families of Arthur Martin-Leake and Noel Chavasse will be sad to find out that they have had one of their VC’s withdrawn.

  22. avatar
    Keith March 3, 2013 at 11:12 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: I saw a similar thing in New Zealand…the native-born Kiwis in Christchurch knew less about Charles Hazlitt Upham than I did,

    Despite my correction to your assertion above, I understand exactly what you mean.

    My wife went through the Australian (Victoria) school system at the same time I went through the American (Arizona) system (late 50;s through the 60’s). When we met, I knew more Australian history than she did.

    She did not study Australian history at any time, but studied UK history in excruciating detail. She can name every King and Queen of England back to the dawn of time, but she didn’t have a clue who the first Prime Minister of Australia was. Her uncle was shot down over the Coral Sea, captured alive, and beheaded by his captors, but she didn’t have any understanding about the importance of that battle to the outcome of the war. She had heard of Gallipoli of course, it is memorialized in maudlin detail every ANZAC day, but her most accurate information came from the movie in the 80’s. Same with Kokoda.

    Australians just seem to have had no interest in their own history, for a variety of reasons, possibly including embarrassment over the ‘terra nullius’ lie (there were an awful lot of ‘owners’ living here for 50,000 years before the white man decided there wasn’t anyone here), an inferiority complex to the ‘mother country’ (Australians carried British passports until the mid 1950’s even though they were ‘independent’ since 1901), and uncertainty over their place in the Asia-Pacific region (“two Wongs don’t make a White” after all, but here we are on the opposite side of the globe from the nice understandable Europeans).

    I believe that Australian history is actually taught now-a-days. Thankfully.

  23. avatar
    G March 4, 2013 at 1:02 am #

    *sigh* Yeah, such things truly make me sad about the society we live in…

    Ignorance and infotainment reign supreme… *double-sigh*

    Kiwiwriter: Well, it enrages me when I talk with people who know who Snooki and Kim Kardashian are, but cannot name their Congressman and Senators, nor know the name: “Winston Churchill.” There was a thread on Twitter late last year of people being amazed to discover that the movie “Titanic” was a true story, and not a romance novel. The only things fictional in that picture were the insipid love triangle and the cowardice of the ship’s crew…most of the crew died with the ship. People were also asking “Who was Rodney King” and “Who is Steve Jobs?”

    And some clown who gets his news straight from “Entertainment Tonight” and “World Net Daily” thinks that he is smarter than Neil De Grasse Tyson….

  24. avatar
    G March 4, 2013 at 1:08 am #

    Thanks for sharing all of that. I enjoy learning a lot about the perspectives and reasons from you and the others in other parts of the world. It certainly helps me not only learn more about your culture but also gives me new comparative insights to reflect upon in what I’m familiar with in my own country…

    You and all of our international contributors are a key reason that this site is always a “must visit”…

    Keith: Australians just seem to have had no interest in their own history, for a variety of reasons, possibly including embarrassment over the ‘terra nullius’ lie (there were an awful lot of ‘owners’ living here for 50,000 years before the white man decided there wasn’t anyone here), an inferiority complex to the ‘mother country’ (Australians carried British passports until the mid 1950′s even though they were ‘independent’ since 1901), and uncertainty over their place in the Asia-Pacific region (“two Wongs don’t make a White” after all, but here we are on the opposite side of the globe from the nice understandable Europeans).

    I believe that Australian history is actually taught now-a-days. Thankfully.

  25. avatar
    Kiwiwriter March 4, 2013 at 10:19 am #

    Keith: The families of Arthur Martin-Leake and Noel Chavasse will be sad to find out that they have had one of their VC’s withdrawn.

    Keith, they were not combatants…they were doctors. They earned their hardware a very hard way. And yes, they did earn the double VC. And Chevasse was related via marriage to Upham. Both were World War I Double VCs, by the way. Upham was the sole World War II Double VC.

    Contrary to the views of my schoolteachers 33 years ago, I am not “the stupidest person in class.”

  26. avatar
    Kiwiwriter March 4, 2013 at 1:16 pm #

    Keith: Despite my correction to your assertion above, I understand exactly what you mean.My wife went through the Australian (Victoria) school system at the same time I went through the American (Arizona) system (late 50;s through the 60′s). When we met, I knew more Australian history than she did.She did not study Australian history at any time, but studied UK history in excruciating detail. She can name every King and Queen of England back to the dawn of time, but she didn’t have a clue who the first Prime Minister of Australia was. Her uncle was shot down over the Coral Sea, captured alive, and beheaded by his captors, but she didn’t have any understanding about the importance of that battle to the outcome of the war. She had heard of Gallipoli of course, it is memorialized in maudlin detail every ANZAC day, but her most accurate information came from the movie in the 80′s. Same with Kokoda. Australians just seem to have had no interest in their own history, for a variety of reasons, possibly including embarrassment over the ‘terra nullius’ lie (there were an awful lot of ‘owners’ living here for 50,000 years before the white man decided there wasn’t anyone here), an inferiority complex to the ‘mother country’ (Australians carried British passports until the mid 1950′s even though they were ‘independent’ since 1901), and uncertainty over their place in the Asia-Pacific region (“two Wongs don’t make a White” after all, but here we are on the opposite side of the globe from the nice understandable Europeans). I believe that Australian history is actually taught now-a-days. Thankfully.

    A lot of countries have the problem of trying to interest their own citizens in their nation’s history. The problem in the United States is that it is taught as a dull procession of non-controversial inevitabilities in which the good guys always win, and mistakes, blunders, and errors of policy only serve to teach us moral lessons. The result is that kids grow up thinking that history has no relevance to them in any way, and they can play no part in it. After all, the good guys always win.

    We also sanitize history, to eliminate the unpleasant and the unpalatable, and replace it with inspiring legends. Americans know all about Plymouth Rock, Washington and the Cherry Tree, everyone dying at the Alamo, and that Betsy Ross sewed up the flag. None of the above happened.

    They DON’T know that Woodrow Wilson was a racist who repeatedly sent US troops to “restore order” in the Caribbean, that Helen Keller was a Communist, or that the CIA overthrew Arbenz in Guatemala, Mossadegh in Iran, and Allende in Chile, with horrible consequences for all, particularly the US, in the case of Iran.

    I’ve seen this situation with Britons, Canadians, and New Zealanders…one time I was interviewed on Broadway, right near the World Trade Center site, by a BBC reporter, asking me what Americans would think about 9/11 decades later. I told her I was lousy at forecasting the future, but that would be hard to say. Then I asked her if she remembered Kohima, Mons, Wireless Ridge, Rorke’s Drift, Mafeking, Lundy’s Lane, or the Marne. She wasn’t too familiar with those battles. My relatives had fought in all of those, and still are, serving in Afghanistan. She knew about D-Day, Dunkirk, and the Somme. Through Shakespeare, she knew about Agincourt. Through Peter Weir, she heard of Gallipoli. I told her history had to be taught to be remembered. She got the point.

    When you make history dull, you don’t engage students in it, they will rapidly fall for conspiracy theories, because they make a messy, random, and ambiguous world extremely neat and organized, in best soap-opera style, with causes and results, and the usual twin punch-line: doom looms, and it can only be averted if you give generously to the faux guru’s grandiose cause. And that’s how they gain supporters and money, from people who only know history as bits and pieces and as conspiracies.

    By the way, John Paul Jones never said, “I have not yet begun to fight!” That quote was invented by his descendants. The contemporary account from the British ship, HMS Serapis, merely says, “Asked to surrender, Mr. Jones replied in the most determined negative.”

    He probably said, “Your mother wears army boots!” which would not go down well in the history books.

  27. avatar
    Keith March 4, 2013 at 2:12 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: A lot of countries have the problem of trying to interest their own citizens in their nation’s history….

    Well said.

  28. avatar
    Kiwiwriter March 4, 2013 at 2:37 pm #

    Keith: Well said.

    No, I didn’t…I screwed up on Leake and Chevasse. I know they got their double VCs, and I’ve seen the photograph of Chevasse’s grave with the twin medals. But they were doctors, and earned their hardware for saving lives, not taking them.

    I met Upham’s widow in New Zealand, and thanked her and her husband for their service to Crown, Alliance, and Country, which was a thrill. Then I met Jack Hinton, New Zealand’s then last-living VC, and his wife…wonderful folks. I touched his VC. He had an interesting life. After the war, he went to a lot of VC events, and he had a wall full of photographs of him at them, with other VC recipients, Royalty, generals, even German General F.W. von Mellenthin, who wrote “Panzer Battles,” which Schwarzkopf kept prominently on his desk to impress newsmen before and during Operation Desert Storm.

    When Hinton died, I volunteered to serve as the official US representative to the funeral, and my Navy bosses, aware that I knew the guy and knew history, happily sent me to Christchurch Cathedral for the state funeral. In my dress blues, I stood at attention as his coffin was wheeled out, then went out to the cemetery for the burial, then back to the Returned Services Association for the post-funeral luncheon. I met a whole bunch of Hinton’s buddies from the war, a New Zealand veteran of WW1, and Australia’s official representative, Keith Payne, who gained a Victoria Cross in Vietnam. All signed my copy of the Official New Zealand History of Hinton’s battalion, which Hinton and the book’s author, Bill Glue, had already signed. It was quite a thrill.

    But I should have put in Leake and Chevasse. There is always one more thing.

  29. avatar
    G March 4, 2013 at 3:27 pm #

    Well said!!!

    Kiwiwriter: When you make history dull, you don’t engage students in it, they will rapidly fall for conspiracy theories, because they make a messy, random, and ambiguous world extremely neat and organized, in best soap-opera style, with causes and results, and the usual twin punch-line: doom looms, and it can only be averted if you give generously to the faux guru’s grandiose cause. And that’s how they gain supporters and money, from people who only know history as bits and pieces and as conspiracies.

  30. avatar
    Keith March 4, 2013 at 8:57 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: No, I didn’t…I screwed up on Leake and Chevasse.

    I was referring to the sentiments that ‘G’ seconded. That statement was certainly well said.

    I also didn’t notice that you were referring specifically to twin ‘combat’ VCs. I didn’t pay attention to the specific action that earned the VC. So you were technically right and I was technically wrong, and truth be told, I didn’t study up on the differences between the qualifying actions of the three, I just remembered that there was more than one double winner and looked up their names.

    However, I consider the VC, granted for whatever action, to be an extremely high achievement, and not given out lightly. IMHO, it is not worthy of splitting hairs whether a specific qualifying action is ‘life taking’ or ‘life saving’. To distinguish between the two in a time of war is probably a moot point anyway. ‘Life taking’ actions are usually ‘life saving’ at some level of abstraction.

    Some years ago a US official (Sec. of State Albright? – can’t remember) visited Japan and left a wreath an Atomic Bomb Memorial. On one of the web sites I visit, a particular thread was laying into this action, the first US official to honor the Bomb victims. The sense of the thread was arguing back and forth whether or not dropping the bomb was the moral thing to do and whether or not it saved Allied lives from the invasion.

    The problem is that those arguments have good, honest opinions on both sides, and no one side can possibly ‘win’. The fact is that the US did drop the bomb, and school kids, bus drivers, grandmothers, prostitutes, garbage collectors, scientists, school teachers, mechanics, artists, priests, etc, etc, etc died by the hundreds of thousands. If you take the argument that dropping the bomb saved Allied soldiers lives, then those hundreds of thousands of civilians died saving those Allied soldiers lives, and they deserve to be honored, in exactly the same way as others who died saving lives. If you take the opposite view then they deserve to be honored as the martyrs your view makes of them. On no account is there an argument that they are unworthy of respect and honor.

  31. avatar
    Kiwiwriter March 6, 2013 at 6:06 pm #

    Keith: I was referring to the sentiments that ‘G’ seconded. That statement was certainly well said. I also didn’t notice that you were referring specifically to twin ‘combat’ VCs. I didn’t pay attention to the specific action that earned the VC. So you were technically right and I was technically wrong, and truth be told, I didn’t study up on the differences between the qualifying actions of the three, I just remembered that there was more than one double winner and looked up their names. However, I consider the VC, granted for whatever action, to be an extremely high achievement, and not given out lightly. IMHO, it is not worthy of splitting hairs whether a specific qualifying action is ‘life taking’ or ‘life saving’. To distinguish between the two in a time of war is probably a moot point anyway. ‘Life taking’ actions are usually ‘life saving’ at some level of abstraction.Some years ago a US official (Sec. of State Albright? – can’t remember) visited Japan and left a wreath an Atomic Bomb Memorial. On one of the web sites I visit, a particular thread was laying into this action, the first US official to honor the Bomb victims. The sense of the thread was arguing back and forth whether or not dropping the bomb was the moral thing to do and whether or not it saved Allied lives from the invasion.The problem is that those arguments have good, honest opinions on both sides, and no one side can possibly ‘win’. The fact is that the US did drop the bomb, and school kids, bus drivers, grandmothers, prostitutes, garbage collectors, scientists, school teachers, mechanics, artists, priests, etc, etc, etc died by the hundreds of thousands. If you take the argument that dropping the bomb saved Allied soldiers lives, then those hundreds of thousands of civilians died saving those Allied soldiers lives, and they deserve to be honored, in exactly the same way as others who died saving lives. If you take the opposite view then they deserve to be honored as the martyrs your view makes of them. On no account is there an argument that they are unworthy of respect and honor.

    I’m very familiar with Leake and Chevasse, and Charles Hazlitt Upham. Among the many hats I wear is historian, with an award-winning web page on World War II history, and I write articles regularly for World War II History magazine. To understand World War II, you have to understand World War I, because World War II is pretty much a continuation of World War I, with most of the same countries, many of the same battlefields, a lot of the same figures, and a good deal of the same weapons and tactics…the British found the SMLE rifle as powerful a weapon in 1939 as it was in 1914. Anybody who looks at the photographs of Cassino, the Reichswald, and Anzio will find them very similar to Passchendaele…down to the mule transport used in Italy and Burma. The big difference is the presence of more mechanized vehicles in the 1944 shots.

    The staff officers of 1918 were the general officers of 1939, the young soldiers of 1918 were the Regimental Sergeants-Major and Chief Petty Officers of 1939, and many of the best generals (especially for the British and French) lay in the cemeteries at the Somme and Verdun, cut down in 1916, never to achieve a better destiny than a grave that reads “Known But to God.” Very sad stuff.

    So I have studied up on this stuff…it’s why I said what I said. Leake and Chevasse were doctors. They performed acts of the highest valor without firing a shot. Charles Hazlitt Upham did. All three displayed the most incredible courage under the most horrific circumstances. I don’t even know why this is an issue.

    The Victoria Cross and the Medal of Honor are the highest awards for valor, and anyone who receives that coveted hardware is a role model and example of courage beyond price. I am always astonished, when I meet these actual warriors, how humble they are. They are prouder of their buddies, and regard the men who lie buried in CGWC and USBM cemeteries as the real heroes, and I heartily agree.

    My take on the atomic bomb, such as it is, is very simple. Based on my study of history and knowledge of my father, my take on what would have happened if Truman had not dropped the bomb is a simple epiphany:

    My father would have been killed while moving through a Japanese town in the latter stage of the invasion of Kyushu, by a Japanese kid armed with fanaticism for his country and one of the many ceramic hand grenades they produced in the chinaware factories in and around Sasebo, The kid would have walked up to my father, pleading wounds or abandonment, Dad would have knelt down to help him, and the kid would have whipped out the grenade and blasted both to the next world.

    By the way, I have one of the ceramic grenades. The Japanese made tons of them, but never filled them with explosives. Over the decades, they have been collected and turned into decorative flower pots with glaze. I have one that is not decorated. Looking back, I wish I’d got a glazed one.

  32. avatar
    Keith March 6, 2013 at 10:19 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: The staff officers of 1918 were the general officers of 1939, the young soldiers of 1918 were the Regimental Sergeants-Major and Chief Petty Officers of 1939, and many of the best generals (especially for the British and French) lay in the cemeteries at the Somme and Verdun, cut down in 1916, never to achieve a better destiny than a grave that reads “Known But to God.” Very sad stuff.

    And the First Lord of he Admiralty in 1915 (sacked for poor planning and execution at Gallipoli) was Prime Minister in 1939.

    Speaking of Gallipoli and Military Honors, have you been following the public campaign for recognition John ‘Simpson’ Kirkpatrick and his donkey? The Official Defense Department review has determined that Gallipoli legend of Simpson falls in a donkey vote

  33. avatar
    Rickey March 7, 2013 at 11:57 am #

    Kiwiwriter:

    My take on the atomic bomb, such as it is, is very simple. Based on my study of history and knowledge of my father, my take on what would have happened if Truman had not dropped the bomb is a simple epiphany:

    My father would have been killed while moving through a Japanese town in the latter stage of the invasion of Kyushu, by a Japanese kid armed with fanaticism for his country and one of the many ceramic hand grenades they produced in the chinaware factories in and around Sasebo, The kid would have walked up to my father, pleading wounds or abandonment, Dad would have knelt down to help him, and the kid would have whipped out the grenade and blasted both to the next world.

    My father, who was a doctor in the Pacific with the Army Air Corps, would have been part of the invasion of Japan. It is a bit surreal to contemplate the fact that I might never have existed were it not for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

  34. avatar
    sfjeff March 7, 2013 at 1:52 pm #

    Kiwi- if Doc doesn’t have any objections, I would love to know the address of your WW2 history site.

  35. avatar
    Dave B. March 7, 2013 at 9:52 pm #

    Ever hear of Desmond Doss? No hairs to split there!

    Keith: IMHO, it is not worthy of splitting hairs whether a specific qualifying action is ‘life taking’ or ‘life saving’. To distinguish between the two in a time of war is probably a moot point anyway. ‘Life taking’ actions are usually ‘life saving’ at some level of abstraction.

  36. avatar
    Kiwiwriter March 9, 2013 at 3:27 pm #

    sfjeff:
    Kiwi- if Doc doesn’t have any objections, I would love to know the address of your WW2 history site.

    Piece of cake: http://www.worldwar2plus55.com/

  37. avatar
    Kiwiwriter March 9, 2013 at 3:30 pm #

    Keith: And the First Lord of he Admiralty in 1915 (sacked for poor planning and execution at Gallipoli) was Prime Minister in 1939.

    Speaking of Gallipoli and Military Honors, have you been following the public campaign for recognition John ‘Simpson’ Kirkpatrick and his donkey? The Official Defense Department review has determined that Gallipoli legend of Simpson falls in a donkey vote

    No, I haven’t seen that campaign…I’ll have to look into it. I had rellies at Gallipoli with both the British and the Australian forces.

  38. avatar
    Dave B. March 9, 2013 at 3:49 pm #

    Actually, with the outbreak of war Churchill went from being a voice crying in the wilderness to resume his position as head of the Admiralty, where he remained until May 1940.

    Keith: And the First Lord of he Admiralty in 1915 (sacked for poor planning and execution at Gallipoli) was Prime Minister in 1939.

  39. avatar
    Keith March 9, 2013 at 7:37 pm #

    Dave B.:
    Actually, with the outbreak of war Churchill went from being a voice crying in the wilderness to resume his position as head of the Admiralty, where he remained until May 1940.

    Correct. I knew it was a typo when I typed it but I added the parenthetical (sacked…) phrase before I fixed it, then forgot to fix it.

    Mea Culpa.

  40. avatar
    Dave B. March 9, 2013 at 8:16 pm #

    I’ve sure made much (and many) more egregious errors than that! I brought up his return to the Admiralty because it gives a kind of symmetry to that particular pilgrim’s progress.

    Keith: Correct. I knew it was a typo when I typed it but I added the parenthetical (sacked…) phrase before I fixed it, then forgot to fix it.

    Mea Culpa.