Main Menu

Doubting Thomas

Second Sunday in Easter, 2013

In the Christian Easter story Jesus appears alive to some of his students after his execution, but not to all of them. One named Thomas was not present at the appearance, and he refused to accept what his friends said without proof.

The resurrection of someone from the dead is an extraordinary claim and one cannot fault Thomas, at least from a rational stance, for demanding physical evidence.

President Obama’s birth in Honolulu was in all the papers, and given that thousands of children were born in Honolulu that year, one more is not an extraordinary event. Nevertheless, birthers are getting better at propaganda than they used to be and in some of their rhetoric, they try to make it sound as if folks like me who believe the President was born in Hawaii do so out of faith rather than from evidence.

That is, of course, not how it is at all. Before the President released his long-form birth certificate 2 years ago this month (it seems longer), I wrote an article titled, “I believe Barack Obama was born at Kapi’olani Medical Center.” That was not a belief based on faith, but upon evidence. Since then, of course, the President released his birth certificate proving that belief to be true, and the State of Hawaii has separately verified it three times to other state officials and to a court.

Meanwhile, birthers have their own beliefs that, for example, the Obama birth certificate is a forgery. That is assuredly a faith-based belief because the expert testimony has never appeared. We have a man who has lied about evidence before, promising something in the next half a year, even though it has been two years already. Indeed, the purveyors of this theory flee from the courts and from debates.

To say that the President of the United States, and the state officials from two administrations, lied about the facts of his birth is an extraordinary claim, and I will not accept it without proof, and there is none.

,

105 Responses to Doubting Thomas

  1. avatar
    CarlOrcas April 7, 2013 at 4:30 pm #

    When I was a young boy our first TV was a huge cabinet job with a very small screen and I was mesmerized by it. (When we fist got it we even watched the test pattern!)

    In addition to Tex Ritter I was fascinated by Oral Roberts and his “show” where he healed the deaf, the lame, etc.

    I remember asking my mother if he was really healing those folks and her answer was probably appropriate for a five year old: “I’ve sure THEY believe he is.” It seemed reasonable to me so I also believed…..until I was about seven or so.

    I think that’s what we’re dealing with here with John and other birthers: Five year old minds believing what they desperately want to.

  2. avatar
    Deborah April 7, 2013 at 4:43 pm #

    This is a good article, and it gets to the heart of the matter. The persecution of Obama (and Obama defenders) by religious zealots is unacceptable. Obama is a citizen and a human being, like everyone else. The fact that he happens to be president does not excuse the abuse. That same abuse would not be accepted by the local community if it was perpetuated on one of our very own neighbors.

    “Christianity” is not a well-defined catch-all phrase that everyone agrees upon. No religion is. When someone refers to a chair, we all agree what a chair is. Not so with Christianity. This is why it has no place in government.

    When this is all over, Christianity could suffer a back lash in retrospect to the abuse they have committed. In my view, they rightfully deserve to be scorned. Of course should such a back lash occur they will call it “religious persecution.”

    Obviously you can’t lump all Christians under one umbrella, and I don’t. I’m glad I know at least a couple Christians that are not engaged in this anti-Obama garbage. But they have created a new stereotype for themselves- big, fat, white, blue-eyed, faith-driven bigots with poor reading comprehension and language skills.

  3. avatar
    Serpico April 7, 2013 at 4:53 pm #

    Did anyone hear the rado program Friday with Mike Zullo taking calls. He revealed that new evidence has been turned over to the Cold Case Posse within the last two days from other law enforcement. That was two days prior to the 5th. I wonder what was turned over to them and by which law enforcement?

  4. avatar
    Majority Will April 7, 2013 at 5:07 pm #

    Serpico:
    Did anyone hear the rado program Friday with Mike Zullo taking calls. He revealed that new evidence has been turned over to the Cold Case Posse within the last two days from other law enforcement. That was two days prior to the 5th. I wonder what was turned over to them and by which law enforcement?

    His banana bread recipe.

  5. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater April 7, 2013 at 5:23 pm #

    Serpico:
    Did anyone hear the rado program Friday with Mike Zullo taking calls. He revealed that new evidence has been turned over to the Cold Case Posse within the last two days from other law enforcement. That was two days prior to the 5th. I wonder what was turned over to them and by which law enforcement?

    Probably nothing. Look how many times Zullo has claimed to have new evidence only to reveal nothing but a brain fart.

  6. avatar
    Daniel April 7, 2013 at 5:25 pm #

    Serpico:
    Did anyone hear the rado program Friday with Mike Zullo taking calls. He revealed that new evidence has been turned over to the Cold Case Posse within the last two days from other law enforcement. That was two days prior to the 5th. I wonder what was turned over to them and by which law enforcement?

    A new paypal button Icon

  7. avatar
    misha marinsky April 7, 2013 at 5:33 pm #

    Serpico: I wonder what was turned over to them

    A new annotated edition of “Alice In Wonderland.” Also, the latest NADA used car price guide.

    Zullo, like Randall Terry, are used car salesmen. Birds of a feather…

  8. avatar
    Bob April 7, 2013 at 6:02 pm #

    Serpico: I wonder what was turned over to them and by which law enforcement?

    Perhaps it’s some warmed-over vague innuendo because that’s all Birthers have ever had. More likely Zullo won’t be turning over anything to anybody because he’s just stringing the Birthers along with his promises.

  9. avatar
    misha marinsky April 7, 2013 at 6:04 pm #

    Deborah: Of course should such a back lash occur they will call it “religious persecution.”

    Gingrich already is: Gingrich Loves “Downton Abbey,” Frets About “A Drive to Outlaw Christianity”

    Complete story: http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2013/04/04/newt_gingrich_loves_downton_abbey_frets_about_a_drive_to_outlaw_christianity.html

  10. avatar
    Saynomorejoe April 7, 2013 at 6:07 pm #

    The trouble with birthers and anti-birthers is that neither one will believe the evidence provided by the other, and all claim that the other evidence is not valid.

    So, they attack each other, on their beliefs , but not on their evidence.

    I am always willing to discuss evidence, but evidence is not what may happen in compurters or printers, but , instead is what the display shows and evidence to show that it actually happened , and is not just a theoritcal possiblitey

    It is possible that a fake bc could be issued by a state, so why deny that it could happen in a particular state.

    When I have shown that state has issued fake BC’s they simply say prove it happened in Hawaii!

    Now, face it, no one can prove a darn thing about a bc filed in a state, unless you are allowed to look at the original bc.

    Certification and verification verifies that the information is on file, and that is all it verifies!

    Bustamante X111 case verified that the state does not know if a bc is correct when they are asked for a certification of the BC as they certified a fake bc.

  11. avatar
    Steve April 7, 2013 at 6:21 pm #

    Saynomorejoe:
    The trouble with birthers and anti-birthers is that neither one will believe the evidence provided by the other, and all claim that the other evidence is not valid.

    So, they attack each other, on their beliefs , but not on their evidence.

    I am always willing to discuss evidence, but evidence is not what may happen in compurters or printers, but , instead is what the display shows and evidence to show that it actually happened , and is not just a theoritcal possiblitey

    It is possible that a fake bc could be issued by a state, so why deny that it could happen in a particular state.

    When I have shown that state has issued fake BC’s they simply say prove it happened in Hawaii!

    Now, face it, no one can prove a darn thing about a bc filed in a state, unless you are allowed to look at the original bc.

    Certification and verification verifies that the information is on file, and that is all it verifies!

    Bustamante X111 case verified that the state does not know if a bc is correct when they are asked for a certification of the BC as they certified a fake bc.

    You forgot to sign this ex animno.

  12. avatar
    richCares April 7, 2013 at 6:23 pm #

    “I wonder what was turned over to them and by which law enforcement?”
    what a silly question, just use his past performance to see Nothing ever is revealed

  13. avatar
    misha marinsky April 7, 2013 at 6:25 pm #

    Saynomorejoe: So, they attack each other, on their beliefs , but not on their evidence.

    I am going to try one more time *sigh* – Linda Lingle is Jewish and a Republican. Sounds crazy, I know.

    Lingle believed McCain/Palin would be better for Israel than Obama. If she could have found anything, the GOP would have used it with glee. She publicly stated there isn’t anything.

    The world is filled with journalists and bloggers wanting to be the next Woodstein. No one has come up with an iota of evidence that Obama was born anywhere other than Hawaii.

    I have written extensively about this. Obama Born In Kenya? No

    Read on:
    http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/03/obama-born-in-kenya-no.html

  14. avatar
    CarlOrcas April 7, 2013 at 6:26 pm #

    Serpico:
    Did anyone hear the rado program Friday with Mike Zullo taking calls. He revealed that new evidence has been turned over to the Cold Case Posse within the last two days from other law enforcement. That was two days prior to the 5th. I wonder what was turned over to them and by which law enforcement?

    Nonsense!

    No real “law enforcement” agency would turn over real evidence to the Cold Case Posse because the cold case posse has no law enforcement authority.

    That, of course, ignores the fact that a real police officer wouldn’t be talking about that sort of real development on the radio.

  15. avatar
    CarlOrcas April 7, 2013 at 6:30 pm #

    Saynomorejoe: Now, face it, no one can prove a darn thing about a bc filed in a state, unless you are allowed to look at the original bc.

    If you were allowed to examine the document that is in the Hawaii archive and that was copied to produce the certified long form we’ve seen how would determine its validity…..or lack thereof?

  16. avatar
    G April 7, 2013 at 6:39 pm #

    There is an existing thread that deals with this already. See:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2013/04/maricopa-county-countdown/

    Serpico:
    Did anyone hear the rado program Friday with Mike Zullo taking calls. He revealed that new evidence has been turned over to the Cold Case Posse within the last two days from other law enforcement. That was two days prior to the 5th. I wonder what was turned over to them and by which law enforcement?

  17. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny April 7, 2013 at 6:40 pm #

    My sermon today was about that one. Like so many words and expressions from the Bible being used again and again without us actually knowing that it is biblical and and without us realizing the true 100% meaning, expressions can start to lead a life of their own. “Doubting Thomas” sounds like a reprimand, but we must also be careful when Jesus seems to reprimand someone, as after all He did not come to earth for the righteous, but to bring sinners to repentance. Jesus did not call Thomas “doubting” – he called him the Twin. We’ll never know why – but just imagine he was called the Twin because he looked so much like US. Jesus is describing his future community of followers, and not as people who were certain of their salvation but as a real community of people full of faith, hope and charity. Oh, and how can there be faith when and where there is certainty? Here endeth the lesson.

    Now compare that to the now well-established community of birfers. First they asked to see the birth certificate. Then they wanted the long form. Surprise, surprise, one of their own (I guess their very own version of “doubting Thomas”) found contemporary birth announcements. Well, well, not content to see the hands and to have put their fingers in the side, they still wanted more. They got the long form. Not enough, the PDF has been “manipulated”. But someone actually held the paper form in her hand . Not enough. And so on…

    I surely would not like being called a doubting Thomas when I say I will not believe any evidence presented by Corsi. Ever.

  18. avatar
    Serpico April 7, 2013 at 6:43 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Nonsense!

    No real “law enforcement” agency would turn over real evidence to the Cold Case Posse because the cold case posse has no law enforcement authority.

    That, of course, ignores the fact that a real police officer wouldn’t be talking about that sort of real development on the radio.

    What if the law enforcement agency turned it over to Arpaio instead? That’s a possibility.

  19. avatar
    BatGuano April 7, 2013 at 6:44 pm #

    Saynomorejoe:
    The trouble with birthers and anti-birthers is that neither one will believe the evidence provided by the other, …..

    not true. when the mariam goderich bio-blurb was discovered by brietbart.com you didn’t hear any accusations from anti-birthers that it was fraudulent or part of some greater conspiracy.

  20. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny April 7, 2013 at 6:54 pm #

    Saynomorejoe: Bustamante X111 case verified that the state does not know if a bc is correct when they are asked for a certification of the BC as they certified a fake bc.

    Good grief. What are you talking about. Comparing what happended in Hawaii – hey, what you pretend happened in Hawaii to what happened with Bustamante in California?
    http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1608338.html

    Read the dissent. It is clear what happened. Bustamante’s Californian BC was a delayed registration of birth based on a, wait for it, baptismal certificate (that was probably fake – the government had a witness for that one ). Now compare that to Obama. Delayed registration is impossible because of the newspaper announcements. Even people who had some political interest to find dirt on Obama proclaimed the record was genuine.

    Note that prior to 1900, presidential candidates had only the baptismal declaration, often hand written by a priest in the family bible to prove where they were born. Note also that Reagan and Eisenhower had less evidence to prove their birth in the USA than Bustamante. Why did you never question them. Oh wait, it could not be because they were both Republicans and er, you know?

  21. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 7, 2013 at 6:55 pm #

    I wonder if there is any truth at all to the statement. Zullo has been caught lying before.

    Serpico: I wonder what was turned over to them and by which law enforcement?

  22. avatar
    G April 7, 2013 at 6:55 pm #

    Utter BS and false equivocation by you on this. You clearly have no clue what “evidence” actually means, or you wouldn’t make such a silly statement.

    Sorry, but the real evidence, as it relates to this specific matter, ALL points to the same conclusion and backs Obama’s NBC birth in HI.

    What you and the rest of your kooky birther clan come up with is nothing more than mere speculation and specious insinuation at best, without anything remotely approaching tangible, concrete and directly relevant evidence, whatsoever at all.

    Saynomorejoe: The trouble with birthers and anti-birthers is that neither one will believe the evidence provided by the other, and all claim that the other evidence is not valid.

    So, they attack each other, on their beliefs , but not on their evidence.

    Again, how is your generalized speculation on “possible” in any way directly relevant to the actual situation at hand? It is not and it is not remotely “evidence” of anything. You just demonstrate that you don’t know what you are talking about when you say such silly things.

    Saynomorejoe: It is possible that a fake bc could be issued by a state, so why deny that it could happen in a particular state.

    Yes, because there is NO evidence that it happened in Hawaii and we are talking about a matter of a birth that took place *in* Hawaii, not anywhere else…and not just “any” birth in Hawaii either, but a *specific* individual’s birth…duh!

    So yeah, if you don’t have any SPECIFIC credible, tangible and real evidence that CONTRADICTS the existing official birth evidence for a particular and specific individual…then you’ve got NOTHING on them whatsoever at all. Simple as that.

    Saynomorejoe: When I have shown that state has issued fake BC’s they simply say prove it happened in Hawaii!

    Incorrect. The officials in HI in charge of managing birth records have repeatedly verified that the INFORMATION on his BC matches their records in addition to confirming that they retain his records on file. Sorry that you are unhappy with that, but that is as good as it gets and as good as it can get.

    Saynomorejoe: Now, face it, no one can prove a darn thing about a bc filed in a state, unless you are allowed to look at the original bc.

    Certification and verification verifies that the information is on file, and that is all it verifies!

    *yawn* Completely irrelevant to Obama. Again, you simply flap your arms around madly about cases that have no direct connection nor correlation to one another.

    Come back when you have something SPECIFIC to Obama. Until then, you and your ilk still have nothing.

    Saynomorejoe: Bustamante X111 case verified that the state does not know if a bc is correct when they are asked for a certification of the BC as they certified a fake bc.

  23. avatar
    CarlOrcas April 7, 2013 at 6:59 pm #

    Serpico: What if the law enforcement agency turned it over to Arpaio instead? That’s a possibility.

    The nice thing about making up your own questions and accepting any answer is that it really opens up the field. Anything is possible!!

    Given Zullo’s track record with this “investigation” I know where I’ll put my money.

  24. avatar
    Deborah April 7, 2013 at 7:03 pm #

    misha marinsky: misha marinsky April 7, 2013 at 6:25 pm (Quote) #

    Lingle believed McCain/Palin would be better for Israel than Obama. If she could have found anything, the GOP would have used it with glee. She publicly stated there isn’t anything.

    That’s exactly the issue, Misha. It appears American Xtians want to be slaves to radical Israel ideology and a perfect state of no-mixed-race-marriages. The end of the world they forsee will result in a major reduction of the population by that standard, and they eagerly anticipate our demise. The no-mixed-marriage-thing only makes sense when considering that many Xtians truly believe in the myth of Adam and Eve, and they believe the radical element of Israel will bring about this restored state. Muslims are just as gullible as Christians in this respect.

  25. avatar
    CarlOrcas April 7, 2013 at 7:04 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I wonder if there is any truth at all to the statement. Zullo has been caught lying before.

    Easier question to answer: When has Zullo been caught telling the truth?

    I’m serious. Think about it.

  26. avatar
    Deborah April 7, 2013 at 7:12 pm #

    Serpico:
    Did anyone hear the rado program Friday with Mike Zullo taking calls. He revealed that new evidence has been turned over to the Cold Case Posse within the last two days from other law enforcement. That was two days prior to the 5th. I wonder what was turned over to them and by which law enforcement?

    Serpico, there is a thread on that from just a day or two ago titled Maricopa County Countdown.

  27. avatar
    misha marinsky April 7, 2013 at 7:37 pm #

    Deborah: It appears American Xtians want to be slaves to radical Israel ideology and a perfect state of no-mixed-race-marriages.

    OT: The reason Evangelicals support Jewish only housing developments in Israel is two-fold. First, it will hasten the return of their lord. Second, if they can help create Jewish only housing, they can create Christian only developments here in the States. Reproductive freedom will of course be outlawed.

    Note: it is not mixed race marriages. It’s mixed religion marriages. For example, a Jewish man from Russia marries a Jewish woman from Ethiopia. The children are considered Jewish.

    Deborah: But they have created a new stereotype for themselves- big, fat, white, blue-eyed, faith-driven bigots with poor reading comprehension and language skills.

    Like this – they brought it on themselves. “Sundays With The Christianists: Home-Schooled Biology So Bad It Lost A Lawsuit”

    Read more at http://wonkette.com/509246/sundays-with-the-christianists-home-schooled-biology-so-bad-it-lost-a-lawsuit#GPpDKAGyT128xUuQ.99

  28. avatar
    misha marinsky April 7, 2013 at 7:51 pm #

    Two Japanese men go to a Tokyo synagogue. They tell the rabbi they want to convert.

    “Why do you want to become Jewish?”, asked the rabbi.

    “We want to learn Jewish business secrets,” said one of the Japanese men.

    “Don’t cheat your customers. Good-bye.”

  29. avatar
    Birther Weary April 7, 2013 at 8:24 pm #

    What I want to know is why the hell are we still talking about this five years later? We all must be as insane as the birthers.

  30. avatar
    Rickey April 7, 2013 at 8:31 pm #

    Serpico: What if the law enforcement agency turned it over to Arpaio instead? That’s a possibility.

    What if if was turned over to the Keystone Kops? That’s a possibility. Or maybe Columbo is on the case. You never know.

  31. avatar
    Majority Will April 7, 2013 at 8:35 pm #

    Rickey: What if if was turned over to the Keystone Kops? That’s a possibility. Or maybe Columbo is on the case. You never know.

    Chief Inspector Jacques Clouseau!

  32. avatar
    richCares April 7, 2013 at 8:36 pm #

    It seems that the gullible believe that “any day now” will happen, they grasp at any BS that leads them to “any day now”. It’s fun to see them spout their garbage in their hate for Obama. (but kind of sad they waste their lives on birtherism). The reality that the birther issue is over seems to go over their heads.

  33. avatar
    Deborah April 7, 2013 at 8:36 pm #

    Tx for the links, Misha, I read them and traveled off to some of the links of the links.

    I think, that for all the claims that Obama is the anti-christ, they should at least come up with some clear and convincing scientific evidence that he was born of a jackal.

  34. avatar
    SluggoJD April 7, 2013 at 8:39 pm #

    Serpico: What if the law enforcement agency turned it over to Arpaio instead? That’s a possibility.

    You’re back for more punishment?

    Haven’t you lost enough blood already for 2013?

  35. avatar
    SluggoJD April 7, 2013 at 8:48 pm #

    Saynomorejoe:
    The trouble with birthers and anti-birthers is that neither one will believe the evidence provided by the other, and all claim that the other evidence is not valid.

    So, they attack each other, on their beliefs , but not on their evidence.

    I am always willing to discuss evidence, but evidence is not what may happen in compurters or printers, but , instead is what the display shows and evidence to show that it actually happened , and is not just a theoritcal possiblitey

    It is possible that a fake bc could be issued by a state, so why deny that it could happen in a particular state.

    When I have shown that state has issued fake BC’s they simply say prove it happened in Hawaii!

    Now, face it, no one can prove a darn thing about a bc filed in a state, unless you are allowed to look at the original bc.

    Certification and verification verifies that the information is on file, and that is all it verifies!

    Bustamante X111 case verified that the state does not know if a bc is correct when they are asked for a certification of the BC as they certified a fake bc.

    Pure BS.

    YOU HAVE NO FRACKING EVIDENCE…period…none, because nothing sinister ever happened. It is impossible to have any evidence when there is nothing you can have evidence about.

    If you were an honest person, you would admit this.
    If you were a smart person, you would know this.
    If you were an honorable person, you wouldn’t post BS.

    But you are piece of elephant dung, nothing more.

    This isn’t a 50/50 thing. This ain’t Louisville vs Michigan. It ain’t a debate over economic philosophies. it ain’t a search for the God Particle, with theories ever-polished until finally the elusive thing was found.

    This is a black and white thing. And black wins. Truth wins. And you and your disgusting ilk lose.

    Obama was born in Hawaii at the hospital. Newspapers printed announcements about his birth. He is a natural born citizen per the law. AND AS SOON AS YOU GO OFF ON SOME WILD SCREWED UP TANGENT, AND IGNORE THE BASIC TRUTHS I JUST POSTED, YOU ARE IN LALA RACISM LAND.

    Now go buy yourself some Tide detergent, and drink up.

  36. avatar
    nbc April 7, 2013 at 8:52 pm #

    Saynomorejoe: The trouble with birthers and anti-birthers is that neither one will believe the evidence provided by the other, and all claim that the other evidence is not valid.

    You certainly may speak for yourself but do not pretend to speak for others, especially those who have spent real time and effort debunking the many birther claims.

  37. avatar
    nbc April 7, 2013 at 8:55 pm #

    Saynomorejoe: It is possible that a fake bc could be issued by a state, so why deny that it could happen in a particular state.

    Anything is possible. But in order to make a legal or logical case you need more than a mere assertion.

    We know that the document that was created was created from the original on file in the vaults of the DOH, as witnessed and certified by the Director. So if you want to argue that the document is a fake, and that all these officials are liars then you have to do better than a pure assertion.

    Of course the alternative is that the 1961 document was fraudulently filed but given the existence of a 1961 document, attested to and signed, I’d say that is a tough case as well.

    If you are interested in pursuing a case against President Obama, then you have to do better than pointing to the mere possibility and have to address the plausibility.

    I have shown how algorithmic explanations are far more plausible than the ‘forger’.

  38. avatar
    nbc April 7, 2013 at 8:57 pm #

    Saynomorejoe: Certification and verification verifies that the information is on file, and that is all it verifies!

    So you accept that the information is on file. So now you have to argue that the original document is fraudulent But that requires someone in 1961 to have convinced a hospital to provide for a fraudulent document.

    Very unlikely but possible. Good luck with that one..

    I guess the CCP’s ‘claims’ that the PDF shows evidence of a forgery is not that appetizing to you anymore. I do not blame you.

  39. avatar
    nbc April 7, 2013 at 8:58 pm #

    Deborah:
    Serpico:
    Did anyone hear the rado program Friday with Mike Zullo taking calls. He revealed that new evidence has been turned over to the Cold Case Posse within the last two days from other law enforcement. That was two days prior to the 5th. I wonder what was turned over to them and by which law enforcement?

    Serpico, there is a thread on that from just a day or two ago titled Maricopa County Countdown.

    Nothing really of relevance… Don’t you understand why they have to say this?

  40. avatar
    J.D. Sue April 7, 2013 at 8:59 pm #

    they try to make it sound as if folks like me who believe the President was born in Hawaii do so out of faith rather than from evidence.

    As a corollary, they also repeatedly accuse us of seeing the President as a messiah. Very annoying and pure projection of their own religious messiah/antichrist obsession.

    And, even the non-religious who have issues with race, have accused me of the faith/messiah thing. I had a long time friend (?!) who threw our relationship away while accusing me of the Obama-messiah thing. It made no sense to me at the time–she knew I didn’t believe in looking for a messiah (I’ve always figured, let the veil be lifted and all the dead rise first…). And she knew me as a very political person with post-graduate degrees in social policy and law, and as a Chicago civil rights lawyer (who did cases with Obama’s old firm) who was excited to see one of our own run. Regardless, she just kept angrily shaking her head accusing me of the messiah thing. It was bizarre, and I couldn’t figure it out, until she got drunk and started spouting off about black people ….

    Fact is, try as we might, it’s an exercise in futility to attempt rational discussions with people who are determined to protect their irrational fears and hatreds at any cost. Very annoying, very sad.

  41. avatar
    nbc April 7, 2013 at 9:00 pm #

    Saynomorejoe: Bustamante X111 case verified that the state does not know if a bc is correct when they are asked for a certification of the BC as they certified a fake bc.

    Now the reality

    To prove that allegation, the government introduced a document appearing to be a transcription of Bustamante’s birth certificate from the Philippines.

    Surely you did read the case did you not?

    You do realize that this has nothing in common with Obama’s situation?

    Shameful…

  42. avatar
    john April 7, 2013 at 9:03 pm #

    We know Hawaii is covering up – Too many conflicting statements from Hawaii Officials:

    Dr. Fukino – Seen Vital RecordS but only 1 record was released.

    Dr. Fukino – Said the Birth Certificate was Half typed and half written but what was released doesn’t seem to conform to this characteristic.

    Governor Abercrombie – Said he could only find a state archived notation regarding the birth – doesn’t sound like a birth certificate.

    Alan Onaka – To AZ SOS – Would not state the BC was an legal and accurate representation as requested. Only stated it MATCHED. Onaka also refers to Obama’s Certificate of Live Birth as an ORIGINAL RECORD

    Alvin Onaka – To KS SOS – States the birth certificate “matches” but does not state it is “identical” as requested. Finally refers to Obama’s BC as Obama’s Original Certificate of Live Birth as maintained by the HI DOH.

    Alvin Onaka – To MS Lawyers – Alivin Onaka states the BC “matches” when asked if it “matches” Refers to Obama’s BC as Obama’s Original Certificate of Live Birth as maintained b the HI DOH.

  43. avatar
    Deborah April 7, 2013 at 9:13 pm #

    I “had” a friend who drives around town with a poster on the back window of her car that says, “God said an abomination would come…guess what?” (Referring to Corsi’s “Obamanation). At the time I recall thinking, gosh, doesn’t she realize how abusive that is?

    It is abusive to call Obama an “abomination,” and/or the anti-christ and these creeps need to be called out and thrown into mental institutions. Sure, Obama can over-look it, perhaps forgive them, perhaps leave them in a state of grace…but there are those of us who will not do that- not now or in the future. Corsi should be investigated. Charged with sedition. Have we ever seen the petition of 200 people leading up to Arpaio’s CCP? Or were those just a group of people Corsi paid off?

    Anyhow, I am no longer friends with that lady.

  44. avatar
    G April 7, 2013 at 9:32 pm #

    Yes, so sad yet so TRUE…

    J.D. Sue: Fact is, try as we might, it’s an exercise in futility to attempt rational discussions with people who are determined to protect their irrational fears and hatreds at any cost. Very annoying, very sad.

  45. avatar
    Deborah April 7, 2013 at 9:32 pm #

    To the innocent-minded, meaning the objective-minded willing to weigh the birther claims against the simple tale the passport records, birth certificate, school records told, Obama came up innocent. To the evil-minded, those looking for evil, those unwilling to consider the possibility of innocence, Obama came up evil…

  46. avatar
    G April 7, 2013 at 9:35 pm #

    Agreed. All that they do is nothing more than PROJECTION of their own internal flaws in how they perceive the world. I sincerely think that many of them are simply incapable of anything but pure faith based thinking and therefore they cannot understand a world actually comprised of reason and facts and people that can grasp such things… it is simply beyond their own limitations…

    J.D. Sue: they try to make it sound as if folks like me who believe the President was born in Hawaii do so out of faith rather than from evidence.

    As a corollary, they also repeatedly accuse us of seeing the President as a messiah. Very annoying and pure projection of their own religious messiah/antichrist obsession.

  47. avatar
    Lupin April 8, 2013 at 2:39 am #

    In his history of contemporary America, THE GLORY AND THE DREAM, William Manchester goes into great details about the irrational hatred of FDR and what some folks at the time used to believe or say about the President, so obvioudsly this thread of insanity in the American body electoral is nothing new — it is likely magnified by the internet (and also made more visible), but it isn’t new.

    I remember some pretty rabid opposition to De Gaulle when I was a kid, and let’s face it, DAY OF THE JACKAL is based on facts, but the opposition to De Gaulle was entirely rational. (It mostly had to do with his decision to “abandon” French Algeria.)

    Recently, we had a pretty hotly contested election between Sarkozy and Hollande — IMHO the most hotly contested since 1981 — and though a few fringe supporters of Sarkozy might be deemed guilty of excesses when attacking Hollande, we are very far from the utterly lunatic attacks directed at Obama from the American fringe right.

    So while this is not a new phenomenon, I’m inclined to believe it is somewhat peculiar to America. My experience about developing countries is limited and I’m not too sure it’s applicable, but it seems to me that Obama’s lunatic opponents have more in common with some folks in Africa or Brazil who can be swayed by accusations of voodoo, curses, etc. than citizens of a first-world nation. I could be wrong, of course, but I’m struck by both the faith-based & irrationality of their attacks.

  48. avatar
    The Magic M April 8, 2013 at 4:09 am #

    they try to make it sound as if folks like me who believe the President was born in Hawaii do so out of faith rather than from evidence

    Since many birthers are also evolution deniers (and climate change deniers), it’s no wonder they learn from the propaganda tactics of the latter:

    1. The claim that “Barack Obama was born in Hawaii” is a belief rather than knowledge based on a clear preponderance of the evidence. (“Evolutionists believe but can’t prove.”)

    2. The claim that “there is no birth certificate in the HI archives”. (“There are no transitional fossils.”)

    3. The claim that anti-birthers are America-hating Marxists. (“Evolutionists are atheists.”)

    4. Claims of guilt by association, “the Communist Party endorses Obama”. (“Hitler was an evolutionist.”)

    and ultimately

    n. The last straw of “I don’t believe anything until I’ve seen it with my own eyes”. (“Nobody ever watched a species evolve into something new.”)

  49. avatar
    The Magic M April 8, 2013 at 4:15 am #

    Lupin: we are very far from the utterly lunatic attacks directed at Obama from the American fringe right

    Same here. You just don’t see that type of political “culture” in Germany.
    The last time I saw over-the-top rhethoric of a similar type was shortly after reunification when the former East German regime party SED was rebuilt as PDS (Party of Democratic Socialism) and tried to paint itself as a mainstream left-leaning platform.
    When our established Social Democratic Party considered a coalition with them after the upcoming elections, the conservatives accused them of trying to turn Germany into a socialist regime of the former East German kind. Their slogan was “they want a different republic”, basically telling people that a vote for the Social Democrats was a vote for communism.
    Since neither the world nor German democracy ended back then (the PDS never made it into a nationwide coalition but in many state governments), that kind of rhethoric has been unheard of ever since.

  50. avatar
    nbc April 8, 2013 at 4:18 am #

    The Magic M: Since many birthers are also evolution deniers (and climate change deniers), it’s no wonder they learn from the propaganda tactics of the latter:

    1. The claim that “Barack Obama was born in Hawaii” is a belief rather than knowledge based on a clear preponderance of the evidence. (“Evolutionists believe but can’t prove.”)

    2. The claim that “there is no birth certificate in the HI archives”. (“There are no transitional fossils.”)

    3. The claim that anti-birthers are America-hating Marxists. (“Evolutionists are atheists.”)

    4. Claims of guilt by association, “the Communist Party endorses Obama”. (“Hitler was an evolutionist.”)

    and ultimately

    n. The last straw of “I don’t believe anything until I’ve seen it with my own eyes”. (“Nobody ever watched a species evolve into something new.”)

    Very interesting and meaningful comparison. Ignorance and fear runs deep in both cases.

  51. avatar
    ellen April 8, 2013 at 8:52 am #

    Re: John’s: “We know Hawaii is covering up – Too many conflicting statements from Hawaii Officials.”

    For Obama to have been born in a foreign country BOTH (1) the officials in Hawaii of BOTH parties and the public Index Data file and the birth notices sent to the Hawaii newspapers in 1961 by the DOH would ALL have to be lying (not to mention the teacher who wrote home to her father about the birth in Hawaii of a child to a woman named Stanley), AND (2) Obama’s relatives would have had to have had enough money (and Obama’s American grandfather was only a furniture salesman and his grandmother a low-level employee in a bank at the time; and his father came to Hawaii from Kenya on free flights) and be willing to waste it sending their pregnant only daughter on a trip ALONE to a foreign country (since WND has proven that Obama senior stayed in Hawaii throughout 1961) at high risk (the rate of stillbirths were high at the time)—–when there were perfectly good hospitals in Hawaii.

  52. avatar
    ScottRS April 8, 2013 at 10:05 am #

    john:
    We know Hawaii is covering up – Too many conflicting statements from Hawaii Officials:(snip)

    John, your feckless, ill-informed and dishonest parsing of the words of others (Fukino, Onaka, et. al.), let alone your outright lies about what people said or did not say (Gov. Abercrombie), do not in any way form a proof of anyone “covering [anything] up”. They only indicate your unwillingness or inability to discern reality.

  53. avatar
    Lupin April 8, 2013 at 10:12 am #

    The Magic M: Same here. You just don’t see that type of political “culture” in Germany.
    The last time I saw over-the-top rhethoric of a similar type was shortly after reunification when the former East German regime party SED was rebuilt as PDS (Party of Democratic Socialism) and tried to paint itself as a mainstream left-leaning platform.
    When our established Social Democratic Party considered a coalition with them after the upcoming elections, the conservatives accused them of trying to turn Germany into a socialist regime of the former East German kind. Their slogan was “they want a different republic”, basically telling people that a vote for the Social Democrats was a vote for communism.
    Since neither the world nor German democracy ended back then (the PDS never made it into a nationwide coalition but in many state governments), that kind of rhethoric has been unheard of ever since.

    And even that rethoric pales before some of the wildest, unfounded and crazy attacks hurled at Bill Clinton or Barack Obama.

    The rethoric you mention is rooted in reality — just blown out of proportion.

    We have a little taste of this here when the rabid sarkozistes who are really sore losers are accusing President Hollande of being a communist trojan horse. It’s crazy, but the general ballpark is real.

    The same when Americans accuse Obama of being a “s*ci*list” — other than being a display of rank political ignorance, it is not utterly insane.

    On the other hand, take the accusation of murdering Vince Foster, and there, you’re in cuckooland. Or Obama being born in Kenya and being a secret Muslim. Or the FEMA camps.

    I mean, some of the statements we read here from the birthers are literally insane.

    I understand being fiercely opposed to Mr Obama and everything he stands for, but why find refuge in sheer looniness?

  54. avatar
    bgansel9 April 8, 2013 at 10:41 am #

    Deborah: When this is all over, Christianity could suffer a back lash in retrospect to the abuse they have committed. In my view, they rightfully deserve to be scorned. Of course should such a back lash occur they will call it “religious persecution.”

    My understanding of Christian religious persecution is that the Christians seem to scream about being persecuted only when they can’t persecute others for different beliefs.

  55. avatar
    Paper April 8, 2013 at 11:13 am #

    Fools exist. No doubt. But are you yourself a fool? I suppose you think someone should prove that you are a fool before calling you one. But fools exist. Can you deny that fools exist? When we know fools exist, why do you simply say “prove *I* am a fool before calling me one?” Now face it, no one can prove you are an intelligent, sensible human being without studying your brain. The fact that you can write complete sentences after all just verifies that you learned English and that is all it verifies. There are plenty of cases where parents have been proven wrong when they have said their children are not fools.

    Saynomorejoe:

    It is possible that a fake bc could be issued by a state, so why deny that it could happen in a particular state.

    When I have shown that state has issued fake BC’s they simply say prove it happened in Hawaii!

    Now, face it, no one can prove a darn thing about a bc filed in a state, unless you are allowed to look at the original bc.

    Certification and verification verifies that the information is on file, and that is all it verifies!

    Bustamante X111 case verified that the state does not know if a bc is correct when they are asked for a certification of the BC as they certified a fake bc.

  56. avatar
    Rickey April 8, 2013 at 11:44 am #

    nbc:

    I guess the CCP’s ‘claims’ that the PDF shows evidence of a forgery is not that appetizing to you anymore. I do not blame you.

    Every time I see the initials “CCP” I’m reminded of a Soviet Union hockey jersey.

    http://cdn.ebbets.com/images/uploads/585_1723_popup.gif

  57. avatar
    CarlOrcas April 8, 2013 at 12:00 pm #

    ellen:
    Re: John’s: “We know Hawaii is covering up – Too many conflicting statements from Hawaii Officials.”

    For Obama to have been born in a foreign country BOTH (1) the officials in Hawaii of BOTH parties and the public Index Data file and the birth notices sent to the Hawaii newspapers in 1961 by the DOH would ALL have to be lying (not to mention the teacher who wrote home to her father about the birth in Hawaii of a child to a woman named Stanley), AND (2) Obama’s relatives would have had to have had enough money (and Obama’s American grandfather was only a furniture salesman and his grandmother a low-level employee in a bank at the time; and his father came to Hawaii from Kenya on free flights) and be willing to waste it sending their pregnant only daughter on a trip ALONE to a foreign country (since WND has proven that Obama senior stayed in Hawaii throughout 1961) at high risk (the rate of stillbirths were high at the time)—–when there were perfectly good hospitals in Hawaii.

    Oh Ellen…..you just need to approach this with the same open mindedness that John has demonstrated.

    It’s obvious that George Soros, who was 31 when Obama was born, has been behind all this from the very beginning. Soros came to the US in the mid-50’s and that’s when the whole thing picked up steam. You don’t think he got rich just because he’s a smart guy, do you?

    And then, of course, there is our own Misha Marinsky who has bragged about his involvement in a certain world wide conspiracy. You don’t think he found this blog just because he like’s witty conversation….do you?

    Now….think about it and you’ll see how it all fits together.

  58. avatar
    J.D. Sue April 8, 2013 at 12:12 pm #

    ellen: sending their pregnant only daughter on a trip ALONE to a foreign country (since WND has proven that Obama senior stayed in Hawaii throughout 1961) at high risk (the rate of stillbirths were high at the time)—–when there were perfectly good hospitals in Hawaii.


    Ah yes, this is my one of my favorites. A pregnant American girl flies (probably on a propeller plane in those days) alone–very far away from her mother and doctor–to a third world war-torn African nation to give birth among strangers who don’t approve of her, and does so for no articulable reason…

  59. avatar
    Plantmaster April 8, 2013 at 12:52 pm #

    john:

    We know Hawaii is covering up – Too many conflicting statements from Hawaii Officials:

    *************
    John, you are like a stuck phonograph needle re: Zullo, Arpaio, Onaka, Orly & every judge who sends Orly packing. I can’t believe somebody actually could come up with every cockamamie excuse in the book to defend birtherism. Unless, perhaps, you don’t want to admit to the REAL reason for persisting in this nonsense.

    Be honest, like Shame on Liberals Shame. Stand in front of a mirror and say out loud: MY NAME IS JOHN, AND I DON’T WANT NO COLORED PERSON IN THE WHITE HOUSE!

  60. avatar
    Plantmaster April 8, 2013 at 12:57 pm #

    CarlOrcas:
    Oh Ellen…..you just need to approach this with the same open mindedness that John has demonstrated.

    It’s obvious that George Soros, who was 31 when Obama was born, has been behind all this from the very beginning. Soros came to the US in the mid-50′s and that’s when the whole thing picked up steam. You don’t think he got rich just because he’s a smart guy, do you?

    And then, of course, there is our own Misha Marinsky who has bragged about his involvement in a certain world wide conspiracy. You don’t think he found this blog just because he like’s witty conversation….do you?

    Now….think about it and you’ll see how it all fits together.
    *************
    I LOVE the smell of Conspiracy in the morning. Smells like victory…;-) (I guess it goes with being a good bleeding heart…)

  61. avatar
    Kiwiwriter April 8, 2013 at 1:37 pm #

    Lupin: In his history of contemporary America, THE GLORY AND THE DREAM, William Manchester goes into great details about the irrational hatred of FDR and what some folks at the time used to believe or say about the President, so obvioudsly this thread of insanity in the American body electoral is nothing new — it is likely magnified by the internet (and also made more visible), but it isn’t new.I remember some pretty rabid opposition to De Gaulle when I was a kid, and let’s face it, DAY OF THE JACKAL is based on facts, but the opposition to De Gaulle was entirely rational. (It mostly had to do with his decision to “abandon” French Algeria.)Recently, we had a pretty hotly contested election between Sarkozy and Hollande — IMHO the most hotly contested since 1981 — and though a few fringe supporters of Sarkozy might be deemed guilty of excesses when attacking Hollande, we are very far from the utterly lunatic attacks directed at Obama from the American fringe right.So while this is not a new phenomenon, I’m inclined to believe it is somewhat peculiar to America. My experience about developing countries is limited and I’m not too sure it’s applicable, but it seems to me that Obama’s lunatic opponents have more in common with some folks in Africa or Brazil who can be swayed by accusations of voodoo, curses, etc. than citizens of a first-world nation. I could be wrong, of course, but I’m struck by both the faith-based & irrationality of their attacks.

    “The Glory and the Dream” is THE best narrative history of the United States from 1932 to 1972 ever written…it’s one of my “books to take on a desert island where I know that the rescue ship will arrive in two days and there is plenty of food.”

    If I’m on any other desert island, I want a book called, “How to get off a desert island using local supplies.”

    But yes, the hatred for FDR was staggering…the extreme right was even planning a coup d’etat to remove him, exposed by Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler, two-time recipient of the Medal of Honor. In some ways, it was worse back then, in that FDR was accused of being a syphilitic Jew, and Eleanor of being a mulatto, attacks that would not fly so easily today. On the other hand, FDR did not have to deal with “birthers” and the Internet. Just Hitler and Stalin.

  62. avatar
    Cletus April 8, 2013 at 2:01 pm #

    All documents that prove eligibility, like birth certificates, require a certain degree of faith that they are accurate.
    Conversely, any document has a small chance of forgery or manipulation, however unlikely.

    Fortunately, our founding fathers enshrined in the Constitution, a clause which keeps us from the eternal questions and skepticism that we’ve seen in the President’s BC.

    Article IV, Section 1. ” Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state.

    In other words, the president’s BC is valid because Hawaii says it’s valid. And has verified its validity several times. All other States and State Courts must therefore recognize it as valid. Per the United States Constitution.

  63. avatar
    misha marinsky April 8, 2013 at 2:05 pm #

    Plantmaster: there is our own Misha Marinsky who has bragged about his involvement in a certain world wide conspiracy. You don’t think he found this blog just because he likes witty conversation….do you?

    I’ll let you in on the secret to a good marriage. My wife and I go to a restaurant, twice a week. A little wine, nice meal, live music.

    She goes on Tuesday, I go on Friday.

    Thank you. I’ll be here all week.

  64. avatar
    misha marinsky April 8, 2013 at 2:10 pm #

    ellen: sending their pregnant only daughter on a trip ALONE to a foreign country…at high risk (the rate of stillbirths were high at the time)—–when there were perfectly good hospitals in Hawaii.

    J.D. Sue: Ah yes, this is my one of my favorites.

    I have deconstructed this scenario, which is physically impossible:

    http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/03/obama-born-in-kenya-no.html

  65. avatar
    donna April 8, 2013 at 2:12 pm #

    misha :

    you did GREAT work!!!!!

  66. avatar
    nbc April 8, 2013 at 2:35 pm #

    Well stated

    Cletus:
    All documents that prove eligibility, like birth certificates, require a certain degree of faith that they are accurate.
    Conversely, any document has a small chance of forgery or manipulation, however unlikely.

    Fortunately, our founding fathers enshrined in the Constitution, a clause which keeps us from the eternal questions and skepticism that we’ve seen in the President’s BC.

    Article IV, Section 1.” Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state.

    In other words, the president’s BC is valid because Hawaii says it’s valid. And has verified its validity several times.All other States and State Courts must therefore recognize it as valid.Per the United States Constitution.

  67. avatar
    CarlOrcas April 8, 2013 at 2:56 pm #

    nbc: In other words, the president’s BC is valid because Hawaii says it’s valid. And has verified its validity several times.All other States and State Courts must therefore recognize it as valid.Per the United States Constitution.

    Yes, yes….that’s how it works in the United States but in Lower Birtherstan they have different standards.

  68. avatar
    nbc April 8, 2013 at 3:03 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Yes, yes….that’s how it works in the United States but in Lower Birtherstan they have different standards.

    So they not like our Constitution?

  69. avatar
    JD Reed April 8, 2013 at 3:27 pm #

    So, since Maricopa County is a subdivision of a state, and thus bound by the “full faith and credit” provision in the constitution, seems to this non-lawyer that it cannot maintain any action, civil or criminal, in regards to the president’s legitimacy. No court of a single state has a smidgen of authority in regards to the legitimacy of a president. Certainly it could not decide for the other 49 states. If it were to decide the President was not an eligible candidate in Arizona, what could Maricopa County do? The only presidential election votes in the eyes of the U.S. Constitution are the electoral votes, and in Arizona Mr. Obama received none. Looks moot to me. (Judge Moore in Alabama should take note.)
    And of course, Congress, not the courts, possesses the ultimate authority to decide whether an individual is a legitimate president.

    .

  70. avatar
    nbc April 8, 2013 at 3:42 pm #

    Hence the angle: falsification of a birth certificate but that is also a long shot given that the document was verified by the DOH.

    JD Reed:
    So, since Maricopa County is a subdivision of a state, and thus bound by the “full faith and credit” provision in the constitution, seems to this non-lawyer that it cannot maintain any action, civil or criminal, in regards to the president’s legitimacy.

  71. avatar
    Paper April 8, 2013 at 4:16 pm #

    Ellen, I finally figured out the reason. A psychic had told them that if, and only if, she gave birth to her son on Kenyan soil would he become President of the United States. After that, they scraped together every cent to send her there, but could only afford enough to send her herself without any escort. It was ironic and strange and beyond belief at the time to have to do such a thing, but their faith in that psychic obviously paid off.

    ellen:

    … AND (2) Obama’s relatives would have had to have had enough money (and Obama’s American grandfather was only a furniture salesman and his grandmother a low-level employee in a bank at the time; and his father came to Hawaii from Kenya on free flights) and be willing to waste it sending their pregnant only daughter on a trip ALONE to a foreign country (since WND has proven that Obama senior stayed in Hawaii throughout 1961) at high risk (the rate of stillbirths were high at the time)—–when there were perfectly good hospitals in Hawaii.

  72. avatar
    Kiwiwriter April 8, 2013 at 4:27 pm #

    Paper: Ellen, I finally figured out the reason. A psychic had told them that if, and only if, she gave birth to her son on Kenyan soil would he become President of the United States. After that, they scraped together every cent to send her there, but could only afford enough to send her herself without any escort. It was ironic and strange and beyond belief at the time to have to do such a thing, but their faith in that psychic obviously paid off.

    Yeah, but don’t forget that Dionne Warwicke had 8,000 psychics on her payroll, and they somehow couldn’t warn their boss that she would 1) suffer a burglary at her home that would take some of her jewelry and awards and 2) go bankrupt.

    Kind of a poor advertisement for their profession, huh?

  73. avatar
    CarlOrcas April 8, 2013 at 4:38 pm #

    nbc: So they not like our Constitution?

    You’ve never been to the backwoods of West Virginia have you?

  74. avatar
    nbc April 8, 2013 at 4:40 pm #

    CarlOrcas: You’ve never been to the backwoods of West Virginia have you?

    Shudder, no…

  75. avatar
    Xyxox April 8, 2013 at 4:51 pm #

    john:
    We know Hawaii is covering up – Too many conflicting statements from Hawaii Officials:

    That statement alone makes you an idiot or a liar.

    Come clean, which one is it?

  76. avatar
    Kiwiwriter April 8, 2013 at 4:54 pm #

    One thing about West Virginia and the “Hatfields and McCoys” stuff…they were portrayed in the media as long-bearded, ignorant, inbred yokels, then and later.

    They were not…they were farmers and small businessmen. The Hatfield family were big in timber and one of them was a judge. The McCoys numbered a lawyer in their family, which is why some of their bitterness went to court.

    The feud was fueled by a good deal of economic rivalry, as the Hatfields were from Mingo County in West Virginia, the McCoys from the opposing side of the Tug Fork River in Kentucky.

    Mingo County became “Bloody Mingo” during the West Virginia coal mine wars of the early 1920s, in which the miners sought to unionize, and the mine owners sought to stop them, bringing in private detectives as union-busters. In those days coal mine companies had their workers mining under machine-guns, and they lived in company houses, using company furniture, were paid in company scrip, only usable at the company store, to which they were in perpetual debt.

    Sid Hatfield, of the famous feuding family, was Town Constable in Matewan in Mingo, where the Hatfields lived, and he stood up against the mine owners and their hired goons, who were known to intercept milk cans going to the local school and pour bitter-tasting fluid into it. The “Matewan Massacre” was the basis of the John Sayles movie on the subject.

    The mine owners won, with help from the West Virginia National Guard, and it took John L. Lewis and the New Deal to unionize the mines, but William Howard Taft’s Supreme Court, at least, struck down “company scrip” in the 1920s.

    By then, the feud had petered out, and the combination of unionization and World War II changed the economic dynamics of that area. There is a wartime newspaper photograph of a Hatfield woman and a McCoy woman who worked together in a defense factory.

    In the late 1990s, the Hatfields and McCoys began reaching out to each other, and started staging joint reunions in the historic area, which continue to this day. They include the usual festivities: church services, picnics, walking tours of historic sites, and a softball game between the two families and a tug-of-war over the Tug Fork River, again between the two families.

    In 2003, the heads of the two clans, responding to 9/11, decided to sign a formal “treaty” between the two families, ending the feud for all time, as a demonstration of American unity in the face of terrorist attack.

    Since the History Channel did its Emmy-winning Kevin Costner mini-series on the families, tourism in that part of Kentucky and West Virginia has shot up, with people descending to see the scene of the feud.

    The most famous fictional member of the McCoy family is Leonard “Bones” McCoy of “Star Trek,” who is, according to the “Star Trek” bible (new movie, that is) a descendant of the family.

  77. avatar
    bgansel9 April 8, 2013 at 6:53 pm #

    JD Reed:
    So, since Maricopa County is a subdivision of a state, and thus bound by the “full faith and credit” provision in the constitution, seems to this non-lawyer that it cannot maintain any action, civil or criminal, in regards to the president’s legitimacy.

    Arpaio calls himself an officer of the State even though he was elected by county voters. I’ve never been able to figure that one out. I think he’s under the mistaken impression that since he has some authority over the border issue (even though Maricopa is not a border county) that he is a state officer.

  78. avatar
    CarlOrcas April 8, 2013 at 7:07 pm #

    bgansel9: Arpaio calls himself an officer of the State even though he was elected by county voters. I’ve never been able to figure that one out.

    In the section of the Arizona Constitution dealing with the formation of counties the sheriff is one of five or six elected officers required.

    That’s where Arpaio comes up with that one. He goes even further with the common law notion of the sheriff as the “chief law enforcement officer” and that’s the basis for his illegal alien sweeps throughout the county, including cities with their own police departments.

    Like all Arizona peace officers he does have authority anywhere in the state but it’s considered rude to run around other people’s jurisdictions….without, at least, letting them know what you’re up to.

  79. avatar
    Paper April 8, 2013 at 7:44 pm #

    True, but this was a real psychic, one of the few true psychics, just doing their patriotic duty, making sure the future came to be as foreseen. How do I know? Well, Barack Obama is the president, isn’t he?

    Kiwiwriter: Yeah, but don’t forget that Dionne Warwicke had 8,000 psychics on her payroll, and they somehow couldn’t warn their boss that she would 1) suffer a burglary at her home that would take some of her jewelry and awards and 2) go bankrupt.

    Kind of a poor advertisement for their profession, huh?

  80. avatar
    Kiwiwriter April 8, 2013 at 8:20 pm #

    Paper:
    True, but this was a real psychic, one of the few true psychics, just doing their patriotic duty, making sure the future came to be as foreseen.How do I know?Well, Barack Obama is the president, isn’t he?

    Hey, these psychics all know what’s going to happen to famous celebrities, but they can’t tell us where the next traffic accident or terrorist attack will take place.

  81. avatar
    misha marinsky April 9, 2013 at 12:24 am #

    Kiwiwriter: Hey, these psychics all know what’s going to happen to famous celebrities, but they can’t tell us where the next traffic accident or terrorist attack will take place.

    My favorite psychic:
    http://www.johnhartstudios.com/wizardofid/strips/2011/february/WZ_Sun_02_13_11cbm.jpg

  82. avatar
    J.D. Sue April 9, 2013 at 1:48 am #

    misha marinsky: I have deconstructed this scenario, which is physically impossible:
    http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/03/obama-born-in-kenya-no.html


    Wow, Outstanding!

  83. avatar
    Bran Mak Morn April 9, 2013 at 5:07 am #

    When this is all over, Christianity could suffer a back lash in retrospect to the abuse they have committed. In my view, they rightfully deserve to be scorned. Of course should such a back lash occur they will call it “religious persecution.”

    You are just as bad as the birthers, with your hate for Christianity seen throughout this thread. The thing is Obama is a Christian, so he should suffer a backlash for what “Christianity” has done? “Christianity” hasn’t done anything. The fact that there are some crazies who are Christian who are birthers doesn’t mean that Christianity is doing anything, just like Stalin’s actions doesn’t mean “atheism” did something. And there are atheist birthers, too. And then there is Geir Smith…. it has nothing to do with Christianity and to make it as such is to fall for the same fallacious thinking as the birthers.

  84. avatar
    Dave April 9, 2013 at 8:55 am #

    There is a tendency in the media, and in this thread, to use the term “Christian” to mean those Christians who fit the pattern of Pat Robertson or Judge Roy Moore — that is, bigoted right-wing extremists bent on turning the country into a theocracy of their particular version of Christian theology. Problem is, these people, though they are numerous, are a minority of Christians. So using the term “Christian” to refer to them is quite misleading.

  85. avatar
    Kiwiwriter April 9, 2013 at 9:36 am #

    Dave: There is a tendency in the media, and in this thread, to use the term “Christian” to mean those Christians who fit the pattern of Pat Robertson or Judge Roy Moore — that is, bigoted right-wing extremists bent on turning the country into a theocracy of their particular version of Christian theology. Problem is, these people, though they are numerous, are a minority of Christians. So using the term “Christian” to refer to them is quite misleading.

    This is quite true…it is unfair to the millions of devout Christians of many versions of the faith, all around the world, who do not behave with such bigotry. In fact, far from it — we must remember that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Mother Teresa, for example, defined their advocacy and humanitarianism in the strongest Christian terms and tenets of faith.

    I often wonder how clergymen running small churches and working with and in their communities react when they see these televangelists, in their gilded palaces, begging for money, denouncing their straw men, and getting nailed for sexual scandals.

  86. avatar
    Graham Shevlin April 9, 2013 at 10:00 am #

    Dave:
    There is a tendency in the media, and in this thread, to use the term “Christian” to mean those Christians who fit the pattern of Pat Robertson or Judge Roy Moore — that is, bigoted right-wing extremists bent on turning the country into a theocracy of their particular version of Christian theology. Problem is, these people, though they are numerous, are a minority of Christians. So using the term “Christian” to refer to them is quite misleading.

    It may be misleading, but there is an old quote that is applicable to this situation. “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing”. If Pat Robertson, Roy Moore et al do not represent or speak for the majority of Christians, then it is up to those Christians to say so. I do not hear or see any Christian leaders speaking up and saying “Pat Robertson can say what he likes, but he represents Pat Robertson, not my church” or words to that effect. Until moderate Christians tell these censorious intolerant nitwits to shut up, many people will consider them to be truly representative of modern American Christianity.

  87. avatar
    Keith April 9, 2013 at 10:17 am #

    Dave: Problem is, these people, though they are numerous, are a minority of Christians. So using the term “Christian” to refer to them is quite misleading.

    Personally, I have a great deal of trouble identifying those people as “Christian” in any meaningful way.

  88. avatar
    richCares April 9, 2013 at 10:54 am #

    well in ancient Rome, the Lions loved Christians, yum yum

  89. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny April 9, 2013 at 10:59 am #

    Graham Shevlin: It may be misleading, but there is an old quote that is applicable to this situation. “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing”. If Pat Robertson, Roy Moore et al do not represent or speak for the majority of Christians, then it is up to those Christians to say so. I do not hear or see any Christian leaders speaking up and saying “Pat Robertson can say what he likes, but he represents Pat Robertson, not my church” or words to that effect. Until moderate Christians tell these censorious intolerant nitwits to shut up, many people will consider them to be truly representative of modern American Christianity.

    Ha, I wonder if you found that on the Internet and replaced “muslim” with “Christian” and Osama Bin Laden with Pat Robertson. I would never call myself a “moderate” Christian but still think these televangelists are un-christian or even ant-christian crooks. I know a Lutheran priest who prays for their souls every Sunday and I hope he’s successful.

    As for the word “moderate” – I wonder what it means in this context. Peaceful? Not wanting to burn followers of another faith at the stake? Uninterested in replacing the constitution with a literal interpretation of the Bible? I believe there are a lot of Christians who feel that way, but aren’t pussies in their religious fervor either.

  90. avatar
    Graham Shevlin April 9, 2013 at 11:04 am #

    Paul Pieniezny: Ha, I wonder if you found that on the Internet and replaced “muslim” with “Christian” and Osama Bin Laden with Pat Robertson.

    Nope, I wrote it myself. I leave plagiarism to lesser mortals. and Yes to the rhetorical questions in the last paragraph. Until Christians who are hostile to a religious theocratic system in the USA start speaking up, crackpots and dominionists will continue to monopolize the airtime.

  91. avatar
    Horus April 9, 2013 at 12:42 pm #

    Deborah:
    I “had” a friend who drives around town with a poster on the back window of her car that says, “God said an abomination would come…guess what?” (Referring to Corsi’s “Obamanation). At the time I recall thinking, gosh, doesn’t she realize how abusive that is?

    It is abusive to call Obama an “abomination,” and/or the anti-christ and these creeps need to be called out and thrown into mental institutions. Sure, Obama can over-look it, perhaps forgive them, perhaps leave them in a state of grace…but there are those of us who will not do that- not now or in the future. Corsi should be investigated. Charged with sedition. Have we ever seen the petition of 200 people leading up to Arpaio’s CCP? Or were those just a group of people Corsi paid off?

    Anyhow, I am no longer friends with that lady.

    The number of relationships that were destroyed with President Obama’s election is uncountable because it is a number so high.
    People in our lives who seemed absolutely normal became unhinged and those relationships will never be the same again.
    Racism had reared it’s ugly head and we could not abide.

  92. avatar
    misha marinsky April 9, 2013 at 1:56 pm #

    Graham Shevlin: Until Christians who are hostile to a religious theocratic system in the USA start speaking up, crackpots and dominionists will continue to monopolize the airtime.

    I drove to Colorado Springs from DC, in the hope of relief from severe asthma. I quickly found out, non-Christians are not welcome in the Springs. I spent three days there, and returned to DC.

    Google “Colorado Springs forced baptism.”

    Ted Haggard: “Pastor Ted, who talks to President George W. Bush or his advisers every Monday, is…most comfortable in denim. He likes to say that his only disagreement with the President is automotive; Bush drives a Ford pickup, whereas Pastor Ted loves his Chevy.

    When Bush invited him to the Oval Office to discuss policy with seven other chieftains of the Christian right in late 2003, Pastor Ted regaled his whole congregation with the story via email. “Well, on Monday I was in the World Prayer Center”— New Life’s high-tech, twentyfour- hour-a-day prayer chapel —“and my cell phone rang.” It was a presidential aide; “the President,” says Pastor Ted, wanted him on hand for the signing of the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act. Pastor Ted was on a plane the next morning and in the President’s office the following afternoon. “It was incredible,” wrote Pastor Ted. He left it to the press to note that Dobson wasn’t there.

    Pastor Ted hadn’t come to Colorado Springs for his health; he had come to wage “spiritual war.”

    He moved the church to a strip mall. There was a bar, a liquor store, New Life Church, a massage parlor. His congregation spilled out and blocked the other businesses. He set up chairs in the alley. He strung up a banner: SIEGE THIS CITY FOR ME, signed JESUS. He assigned everyone in the church names from the phone book they were to pray for. He sent teams to pray in front of the homes of supposed witches—in one month, ten out of fifteen of his targets put their houses on the market. His congregation “prayer-walked” nearly every street of the city.

    Complete story: http://www.rickross.com/reference/fundamentalists/fund196.html

  93. avatar
    misha marinsky April 9, 2013 at 2:07 pm #

    Horus: People in our lives who seemed absolutely normal became unhinged and those relationships will never be the same again.

    Eric Dondero on Whether He Would Let a Democrat Drown

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/11/eric-dondero-boycott-democrat-libertarian.html

    But nobody had the same reaction as Eric Dondero, a former Ron Paul aide who blogs…In a post yesterday, Dondero, reasoning that the only recourse to Obama’s victory is “outright revolt,” laid out the terms of the “personal boycott” against Democrats which he plans to maintain for the rest of his life and that he hopes his followers will as well. What does the boycott entail? Cutting all ties with Democratic family members, friends, and lovers; refusing to work for a Democratic boss; spitting on the ground when a Democrat talks to you; and possibly [crapping] on your Democratic neighbor’s lawn, among other things:

    All family and friends, even close family and friends, who I know to be Democrats are hereby dead to me. I vow never to speak to them again for the rest of my life, or have any communications with them. They are in short, the enemies of liberty. They deserve nothing less than hatred and utter contempt.

    I strongly urge all other libertarians to do the same. Are you married to someone who voted for Obama, have a girlfriend who voted ‘O’. Divorce them. Break up with them without haste. Vow not to attend family functions, Thanksgiving dinner or Christmas for example, if there will be any family members in attendance who are Democrats.

    Do you work for someone who voted for Obama? Quit your job. Co-workers who voted for Obama. Simply don’t talk to them in the workplace, unless your boss instructs you too for work-related only purposes. Have clients who voted Democrat? Call them up this morning and tell them to take their business elsewhere.

    Have a neighbor who votes for Obama? You could take a crap on their lawn. Then again, probably not a good idea since it would be technically illegal to do this. But you could have your dog take care of business. Not your fault if he just happens to choose that particular spot.

  94. avatar
    misha marinsky April 9, 2013 at 4:17 pm #

    CarlOrcas: I was fascinated by Oral Roberts and his “show” where he healed the deaf, the lame, etc.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/religion-obituaries/6827907/Oral-Roberts.html

    Roberts routinely attempted to heal his followers of a wide range of diseases – from cancer to haemorrhoids – by placing his healing hand against the lens of the camera and asking the afflicted to touch their television screens. The miracle cures thus effected were often accompanied by requests for “seed faith” donations – “twenty dollars, Visa, Amex, whatever the Lord leads you to do”.

    By the early 1980s the Oral Roberts Evangelistic Association employed 2,300 people and was grossing $110 million a year in donations.

  95. avatar
    Northland10 April 9, 2013 at 6:33 pm #

    Graham Shevlin: It may be misleading, but there is an old quote that is applicable to this situation. “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing”. If Pat Robertson, Roy Moore et al do not represent or speak for the majority of Christians, then it is up to those Christians to say so. I do not hear or see any Christian leaders speaking up and saying “Pat Robertson can say what he likes, but he represents Pat Robertson, not my church” or words to that effect. Until moderate Christians tell these censorious intolerant nitwits to shut up, many people will consider them to be truly representative of modern American Christianity.

    Is it right for “many people” to pre-judge all Christians based on the very non-Christian behavior of a few who are sensational enough that the press like to cover them? Many Christians would rather express their faith by working to help others, protect civil rights, and show love in the world instead of getting in a shouting match with those whose ears are closed.

    As it is, the likes of Robertson are failing anyway.

  96. avatar
    Graham Shevlin April 9, 2013 at 7:02 pm #

    Northland10: Is it right for “many people” to pre-judge all Christians based on the very non-Christian behavior of a few who are sensational enough that the press like to cover them?Many Christians would rather express their faith by working to help others, protect civil rights, and show love in the world instead of getting in a shouting match with those whose ears are closed.

    It is not right, but this is an example of where perception becomes reality. I learned a long time ago in politics and mass movement public relations that if all the public sees is the behavior of the most extreme of your supporters, then they will associate the views and attitudes of those supporters with the whole of your party. The only way to prevent that “guilt by association” is to either persuade the supporters to modify their behavior, or remove them from the party. Simply ignoring them and pretending they don’t exist doesn’t make them go away, and leaves you unable to answer the awkward question “is this what your movement is really about?”

  97. avatar
    Northland10 April 9, 2013 at 7:39 pm #

    Graham Shevlin: I learned a long time ago in politics and mass movement public relations that if all the public sees is the behavior of the most extreme of your supporters, then they will associate the views and attitudes of those supporters with the whole of your party. The only way to prevent that “guilt by association” is to either persuade the supporters to modify their behavior, or remove them from the party.

    Do you think that, just because people claim the term Christian, they are part of the same “group?” We are not a political party or even some cohesive movement (remember that reformation thing?). Al-Qaeda does not speak for those who were finally able to build their Mosque in Murfreesboro despite the bigots who tried to stop it, and Refusenik’s do not speak for those of the Jewish faith and Israel (I hope I got the term correct, Misha). Why must we be held to a different standard?

    When a child is hungry, should we instead shout down the Robertsons and Hagees? Maybe we could win the perception fight, but the child is still hungry. For many of us Christians, it is not about winning the PR fight, or controlling the people, it is simply about showing God’s love in this world. If people want to hate us for that, so be it.

  98. avatar
    CarlOrcas April 9, 2013 at 7:47 pm #

    misha marinsky: By the early 1980s the Oral Roberts Evangelistic Association employed 2,300 people and was grossing $110 million a year in donations.

    I found myself living in Tulsa for a short time in the late 80’s when the association was at its peak. Roberts was, as they say down there, the big dog in town.

    The university was humming and the City of Faith was still a year or two away from closing. At some point the medical and law schools closed or moved out of town and Oral took off to live in southern California while the kids fought over the remains of the empire.

  99. avatar
    Bran Mak Morn April 10, 2013 at 7:19 am #

    Once again, I see many people here doing the exact same thing as the birthers and WND like people do.

    1) Assuming the birther issue is big and so must be responded to. It isn’t. It’s a joke. There is a good reason why many Christians say nothing — it’s a joke. Indeed, if you look at those who voted for Obama, Christians are high on the list.

    2) Guilt by association. Really? Just like all the Beck rants? Really?

    3) “I didn’t hear anything, so it’s not vocal enough.” Really? You want to follow the racist memes?

    Seriously, the problem I have with many who respond to birthers is that many of them are just as bigoted as the birthers. But unlike those idiots, I don’t judge the anti-birthers by the remarks of such lunacy. But it just shows that you get two of the same coin, and then the rest of us who understand the bs joke this is.

  100. avatar
    Deborah April 11, 2013 at 11:32 pm #

    Northland10: Northland10 April 9, 2013 at 7:39 pm (Quote) #

    In retrospect, I cannot name one single instance in all my years of Christianity that I can say for certain that God “saved” me and I must give the credit to Jesus, though I desperately tried to believe.

    The birthers are the last straw in my Christianity. I am no longer a Christian.

  101. avatar
    misha marinsky April 12, 2013 at 11:57 am #

    Deborah: I must give the credit to Jesus, though I desperately tried to believe.

    Jesus saves, but Moses invests.

  102. avatar
    misha marinsky April 12, 2013 at 11:59 am #

    Deborah: The birthers are the last straw in my Christianity. I am no longer a Christian.

    You should join the Pastafarians. The FSM is a riot.

  103. avatar
    Deborah April 12, 2013 at 8:40 pm #

    What a waste of time it has all been Misha! But I am glad to be free of religion (agnostic only).

  104. avatar
    misha marinsky April 12, 2013 at 9:08 pm #

    Deborah: What a waste of time it has all been Misha! But I am glad to be free of religion.

    The real goal of the right-to-life mob is outlawing reproductive freedom, and subverting the 1st Amendment.

    Perversely, they guard the 2nd Amendment.

  105. avatar
    Deborah April 12, 2013 at 9:28 pm #

    I agree, Misha. I am not a fan of Margaret Sanger (founder of Planned Parenthood). I recommend the book Not Fit for Our Society by Peter Schrag (former editor of the Sacramento Bee).