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Obama taught Vattel at The University of Chicago

President Obama, when an adjunct professor at the University of Chicago Law School, taught a course  on Constitutional Law and one titled “Current Issues in Racism and the Law.” The New York Times published the syllabus for the latter back in July of 2008 in an article called “Teaching Law, Testing Ideas, Obama Stood Slightly Apart.”

There are some interesting items in the reading list Obama gave his students. On the issue of the removal of Indians, he cited Vattel’s The Law of Nations. We don’t have the over 500-page reading packet itself, so we don’t know what the particular reading from Vattel was1. It is nevertheless instructive that then professor Obama picked such a source, which in modern times is rather obscure. Obama also included a reading about the Dred Scott case and the Slaughterhouse Cases (both having been cited in the Presidential eligibility debate). Of course no discussion of citizenships is complete without the Fourteenth Amendment and the Civil Rights Act of 1866, both of which appear in the Obama syllabus.

While the Obama reading list is extensive, still it is remarkable that there is as much overlap between it and what we talk about on this site, and I do not think that this is a coincidence, because a discussion about racism is one of the practice of discrimination and exclusion and eligibility criteria are about the same thing.


1I suggest that the text might have been from The Law of Nations, Book 2:

§ 97 The savages of North America had no right to appropriate all that vast continent to themselves; and since they were unable to inhabit the whole of those regions, other nations might, without injustice, settle in some parts of them, provided they left the natives a sufficiency of land. If the pastoral Arabs would carefully cultivate the soil, a less space might be sufficient for them. Nevertheless, no other nation has a right to narrow their boundaries, unless she be under an absolute want of land. For, in short, they possess their country; they make use of it after their manner; they reap from it an advantage suitable to their manner of life, respecting which they have no laws to receive from any one. In a case of pressing necessity, I think people might, without injustice, settle in a part of that country, on leading the Arabs the means of rendering it, by the cultivation of the earth, sufficient for their own wants, and those of the new inhabitants.

Vattel, of course, had no notion of the vast size of the native population of the Americas before it was decimated by diseases from the European explorers.

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253 Responses to Obama taught Vattel at The University of Chicago

  1. avatar
    donna April 16, 2013 at 11:38 pm #

    an ineresting tidbit from John C. Eastman, Dean and Donald P. Kennedy Chair in Law at Chapman University and a former clerk to Justice Clarence Thomas regarding obama at University of Chicago Law School:

    Although Senator Obama’s teaching position at the University of Chicago Law School overlapped my own time there as a student, I did not have occasion to take one of his classes—I tended to register for the classes of the full-time tenured faculty rather than those taught by adjuncts such as Mr. Obama—but I am not surprised to see the intellectual diversity for which Chicago is famous reflected in then-Professor Obama’s course syllabi and examinations.

    […..]

    I was particularly pleased to see a reading from the classic work by Vattel, one of the leading international law theorists in all of human history, The Law of Nations. What is more, it is evident from the sampling of proposed topics for group presentations contained in the syllabus that this spectrum of authors was included for more than mere exposure. Rather, it appears that then-Professor Obama was leading his students in an honest assessment of competing views regarding some of the most difficult legal and policy issues our nation has ever faced—a refreshing change from what passes for debate about contested questions in our political classes these days.

    NYT

  2. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 17, 2013 at 1:19 pm #

    This very much deserves an article. Thank you!

    donna: an ineresting tidbit from John C. Eastman, Dean and Donald P. Kennedy Chair in Law at Chapman University and a former clerk to Justice Clarence Thomas regarding obama at University of Chicago Law School:

  3. avatar
    donna April 17, 2013 at 2:07 pm #

    prego, doc

    after all YOU DO ………. glad to add something of relevance

    i had previously read that article but apparently skipped over the vattel reference

    i only returned to the article after some said obama never taught constitutional law – at the end of the article are 7 of his constitutional law exams

    having covered vattel, etc, he must be very amused by the return of vattel by the birthers and “competing views”

  4. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG April 17, 2013 at 2:37 pm #

    Gotta wonder how many birther’s will have a stroke over this one. lol

  5. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 17, 2013 at 3:06 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG:
    Gotta wonder how many birther’s will have a stroke over this one. lol

    They’ll just claim that this means that he knows he’s ineligible and is flaunting this.

  6. avatar
    misha marinsky April 17, 2013 at 4:15 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: Gotta wonder how many birthers will have a stroke over this one.

    Popcorn

  7. avatar
    Paper April 17, 2013 at 4:55 pm #

    Well, when I first read the headline, I thought it meant that Obama taught the actual person, Vattel when he was a young student, that in fact Vattel originally learned the basis of the law of nations from Obama himself. You would think that that reading wouldn’t make any sense. But therein lies the real conspiracy. The reason Vattel did NOT say that natural born citizens must be born of two citizen parents is only because Obama corrupted him in his youth.

    As for how such a thing would be possible, I will leave that conspiratorial explanation to our cracker-jack team of theoretical physicists, or biology PhDs.

    Andrew Vrba, PmG:
    Gotta wonder how many birther’s will have a stroke over this one. lol

  8. avatar
    Deborah April 17, 2013 at 5:11 pm #

    Any leader of any country that engages in trade with other nations should be familiar with the law of nations (natural rights that apply to any citizen of any country), for diplomatic purposes alone. Stupid local yokel Americans think the Constitution makes them superior to other nations and they forget the U.S. is daily engaged with other nations.

  9. avatar
    Sef April 17, 2013 at 6:15 pm #

    Paper: As for how such a thing would be possible, I will leave that conspiratorial explanation to our cracker-jack team of theoretical physicists, or biology PhDs.

    It’s an engineering problem.

  10. avatar
    US Citizen April 17, 2013 at 6:59 pm #

    “Obama taught Vattel at The University of Chicago”

    Another lie!!

    I have it on good authority that Vattel died long before Obama was even born!

    😉

  11. avatar
    misha marinsky April 17, 2013 at 7:02 pm #

    US Citizen: I have it on good authority that Vattel died long before Obama was even born!

    Liar! Vattel and Obama grew up together.

  12. avatar
    aarrgghh April 17, 2013 at 7:04 pm #

    finally! proof that our lazy, incompetent, weak, narcissistic drug-addled, infantile, teleprompter-addicted puppet-usurper is in fact the diabolical elite cloward/priven-groomed marxist trilateral power-obsessed alien overlord mastermind we always knew him to be …

    </birf>

  13. avatar
    Dave April 17, 2013 at 8:41 pm #

    There is obviously some meaning of the word “Arab” with which I am unfamiliar.

  14. avatar
    Jim April 17, 2013 at 8:44 pm #

    Now we know where the birthers got their material and ideas…taught by Professor Obama to them after they saw his course material. They found out where to look! 😀

  15. avatar
    Northland10 April 17, 2013 at 10:20 pm #

    Dave:
    There is obviously some meaning of the word “Arab” with which I am unfamiliar.

    I believe he is referring to both Native Americans and Arabs. The chapter is “Independent families in a country” and so, his reference is to groups who are “wandering in a country” (various nomadic tribes and such).

  16. avatar
    JPotter April 17, 2013 at 10:36 pm #

    Sounds like Vattel was endorsing lebensraum. No wonder rightwingers are attracted to him.
    Heh.

    Interestingly, the passage implies that need grants rights. Is this Vattel dude a full-blown commie, or just a little pink? Or perhaps elsewhere he makes it clear that the needs of the many are the basis of rights, or at least can be a righteous basis for a sovereign to make a claim on, but that the needs of individuals are of no concern. If so, now we’re getting somewhere.

    Somewhere far to the right.

  17. avatar
    Keith April 17, 2013 at 11:00 pm #

    JPotter:
    Sounds like Vattel was endorsing lebensraum. No wonder rightwingers are attracted to him.
    Heh.

    Interestingly, the passage implies that need grants rights. Is this Vattel dude a full-blown commie, or just a little pink? Or perhaps elsewhere he makes it clear that the needs of the many are the basis of rights, or at least can be a righteous basis for a sovereign to make a claim on, but that the needs of individuals are of no concern. If so, now we’re getting somewhere.

    Somewhere far to the right.

    Supposedly, Geo. Washington checked a copy of Vattel out of the library.

    Has anybody checked to see if Herr Shicklegruber had access to a copy while he was in prison writing his screed?

  18. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 18, 2013 at 1:52 am #

    That would be consistent with his right to carry of women of there were a shortage and neighboring countries wouldn’t provide any.

    JPotter: Interestingly, the passage implies that need grants rights.

  19. avatar
    Joe Acerbic April 18, 2013 at 2:43 am #

    The idea that it’s quite ok to steal someone else’s land if you think they don’t really need it all or you can teach them to make do with less doesn’t quite seem to fit modern concepts of justice. Perhaps this Vattel dude belongs to the garbage bin of history…

  20. avatar
    Craig HS April 18, 2013 at 2:53 am #

    I’m pretty sure that Obama’s tenure with the Mars Teleportation project when he was a teen was just cover for the REAL goal… TIME TRAVEL! Because the Birthers are on to him, he’s gotten a covert branch of NASA to build him a time machine to go back to himself as a teenager, and send his younger self back to Vattel to get the right levels of disinformation into the Law of Nations in order to mislead the Birthers of the current day!

  21. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 18, 2013 at 3:41 am #

    How strange, the birthers were using Vattel as a foundation for their position on some of the problems with the birth of the President, and , the anti-birther were chastizing them for using Vattel as he was an old frenchman and should not be considered in any way part of the American law.

    Now, lo and behold, the President taught Vattel at CU and now everyone thinks it is a grand course to teach as it is so important to the laws of the world.

    Beliefs are strange, and strange things change beliefs, when foes or friend utter them!

  22. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 18, 2013 at 3:46 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: That would be consistent with his right to carry of women of there were a shortage and neighboring countries wouldn’t provide any.

    Overpowering neighboring countries has always resulted in the carrying away of women! Now a days they are called “war brides”

    In fact, it was common practice in the days of Moses and throughout the world.

    The Vikings were great warriors who also carried away the women and sold them into slavery.

    I don’t know if it ever will change, as the weak can not stop the strong!

  23. avatar
    The Magic M April 18, 2013 at 4:09 am #

    Christopher Nolan made a movie about that. It’s called The Prez Teached.

    bada-bing

  24. avatar
    The Magic M April 18, 2013 at 4:12 am #

    Craig HS: Because the Birthers are on to him, he’s gotten a covert branch of NASA to build him a time machine to go back to himself as a teenager, and send his younger self back to Vattel to get the right levels of disinformation into the Law of Nations in order to mislead the Birthers of the current day!

    But the birther resistance also sent a member back in time to make sure Vattel’s “naturel ou indigènes” would be translated to “natural-born citizen”. I think his name was Jerome Schwarzenpuzzo aka The Birthinator.

  25. avatar
    KenyanBornObama April 18, 2013 at 6:20 am #

    lolol

    DO DO DO DO DO DO DO DO

    Obama knew he wasn’t eligible all along…

  26. avatar
    Paper April 18, 2013 at 7:03 am #

    There is this word called “perspective.” Another word called “proportion.” There also is this phrase: “pay attention.”

    If you paid attention, you would have seen people on this site acknowledging where Vattel has an actual legacy, which just so happens to have nothing to do with our President’s eligibility.

    This would be an example of you trying to make an issue out of something that is at best a quibble, or an exaggeration or untruth, but regardless something that has nothing to do with the actual point.

    saynomorejoe:
    How strange, the birthers were using Vattel as a foundation for their position onsome of the problems with the birth of the President, and , the anti-birther were chastizing them for using Vattel as he was an old frenchman and should not be considered in any way part of the American law.

    Now, lo and behold, the President taught Vattel at CU and now everyone thinks it is a grand course to teach as it is so important to the laws of the world.

    Beliefs are strange, and strange things change beliefs, when foes or friend utter them!

  27. avatar
    Paper April 18, 2013 at 7:16 am #

    Right. Moebius strip. Whether in the actual time vortex or in the imaginarium, it remains a matter of bending and constraining elements to create an engineered result. Should have thought of that.

    Sef: It’s an engineering problem.

  28. avatar
    bovril April 18, 2013 at 9:26 am #

    Yay, Trace is in the house……

    So Tracey dear, hows the old lawsuit going in MD..?

    Nowhere slowly it looks like.

  29. avatar
    Thomas Brown April 18, 2013 at 9:36 am #

    Tracy’s just waiting for the day someone makes a cigarette that also contains Vicodin and bourbon.

  30. avatar
    Arthur April 18, 2013 at 9:40 am #

    Thomas Brown: someone makes a cigarette that also contains Vicodin and bourbon.

    Yeah, I’d buy that.

  31. avatar
    nbc April 18, 2013 at 9:44 am #

    The situation between the immigrants and the native population of what became the United States was indeed guided by the Law of Nations, especially since for a long time, the native population was considered to be a separate nation.

    Geez…

    saynomorejoe:
    How strange, the birthers were using Vattel as a foundation for their position onsome of the problems with the birth of the President, and , the anti-birther were chastizing them for using Vattel as he was an old frenchman and should not be considered in any way part of the American law.

    Now, lo and behold, the President taught Vattel at CU and now everyone thinks it is a grand course to teach as it is so important to the laws of the world.

    Beliefs are strange, and strange things change beliefs, when foes or friend utter them!

  32. avatar
    Rickey April 18, 2013 at 10:33 am #

    saynomorejoe:
    How strange, the birthers were using Vattel as a foundation for their position onsome of the problems with the birth of the President, and , the anti-birther were chastizing them for using Vattel as he was an old frenchman and should not be considered in any way part of the American law.

    Now, lo and behold, the President taught Vattel at CU and now everyone thinks it is a grand course to teach as it is so important to the laws of the world.

    Beliefs are strange, and strange things change beliefs, when foes or friend utter them!

    I have never heard anyone refer to the University of Chicago as CU. I have heard it called UC or U of C, but never CU.

    Vattel is and was influential in international law, but he had little or no influence on the U.S. Constitution.

    You spout off about Vattel as if you actually know something about him, and then you say something stupid like “he was an old Frenchman.” He wasn’t French. He was Swiss. Look it up. Learn something.

  33. avatar
    nbc April 18, 2013 at 10:37 am #

    The problem is that even Vattel recognizes that every country has the right to pass its own laws on who are its citizens and that the ‘Law of Nations’ has no real relevance to such issues.

    Vattel’s principles never were part of the Common Law in the early US states or in the colonies which all followed English Common Law.

    Not that hard to understand really…

    Birthers beg the question as courts have outlined quite clearly.

  34. avatar
    Rickey April 18, 2013 at 10:41 am #

    bovril:
    Yay, Trace is in the house……

    So Tracey dear, hows the old lawsuit going in MD..?

    Nowhere slowly it looks like.

    She should be resting up for when Orly asks her to individually serve every member of Congress.

  35. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 18, 2013 at 11:46 am #

    I believe this is what is called a “straw man argument.”

    saynomorejoe: How strange, the birthers were using Vattel as a foundation for their position on some of the problems with the birth of the President, and , the anti-birther were chastizing them for using Vattel as he was an old frenchman and should not be considered in any way part of the American law.

    Now, lo and behold, the President taught Vattel at CU and now everyone thinks it is a grand course to teach as it is so important to the laws of the world.

    Beliefs are strange, and strange things change beliefs, when foes or friend utter them!

  36. avatar
    donna April 18, 2013 at 12:08 pm #

    saynomorejoe:

    CU is the University of Colorado Boulder

    U OF C is The University of Chicago

    pleasssse, joe “say no more”

  37. avatar
    Jim April 18, 2013 at 12:14 pm #

    donna:

    CU is the University of Colorado Boulder

    CU is Champaign-Urbana…home to the University of Illinois!

    at least around here it is. 😀

  38. avatar
    Larry April 18, 2013 at 12:29 pm #

    Press release

    Law Offices of Orly Taitz

    04.18.2013

    18 high ranking officers of the U.S. military signed letters urging Judge Morrison C. England, Chief District Judge of the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of California to hear on the merits the legal challenge brought by Attorney Orly Taitz on behalf of Presidential Candidates and Presidential Electors in light of evidence of forgery in Obama’s IDs. Contrary to reports of a 100% controlled and censored U.S. main stream media, aka Obama regime propaganda machine, none of the legal challenges against Obama was ever ruled upon on the merits. Not one single judge compelled production of the original IDs for Obama, not one single judge or jury saw the original birth certificate, original Selective Service certificate, original Social Security application and all the copies released so far were deemed by experts to be flagrant crude forgeries. Not one single judge or jury have seen the application SS-5 for the Connecticut Social Security number 042-68-4425,which Obama is fraudulently using, even now, in the White House, while it failed both E-Verify and SSNVS and showed in multiple databases to be assigned to an immigrant from Russia, Harrison J. Bounel, who was born in 1890, presumed to be deceased without heirs and whose number was illegally assumed by Obama. Why doesn’t he have a valid Social Security number? Sworn affidavits of top law enforcement officers and experts show him using a forged birth certificate, forged Selective Service certificate, Indonesian citizenship and a last name not legally his. Top ranking officers of the U.S. military have a right to know whether we have a legitimate Commander-in-Chief giving them orders. Other members of the U.S military, law enforcement, FBI, Sheriffs, police officers, District Attorneys, assistant U.S. attorneys and assistant AGs, who share the same concerns as Major General Childers and other officers can write to Attorney Taitz at orly.taitz@gmail.com.

    http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Letter-from-Major-General-Childers.jpg

  39. avatar
    JJolly April 18, 2013 at 1:25 pm #

    Larry:
    Press release

    Law Offices of Orly Taitz

    04.18.2013

    18 high ranking officers of the U.S. military signed letters urging Judge Morrison C. England, Chief District Judge of the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of California to hear on the merits the legal challenge brought by Attorney Orly Taitz on behalf of Presidential Candidates and Presidential Electorsin light of evidence of forgery in Obama’s IDs. Contrary to reports of a 100% controlled and censored U.S. main stream media, aka Obama regime propaganda machine, none of the legal challenges against Obama was ever ruled upon on the merits. Not one single judge compelled production of the original IDs for Obama, not one single judge or jury saw the original birth certificate, original Selective Service certificate, original Social Security application and all the copies released so far were deemed by experts to be flagrant crude forgeries. Not one single judge or jury have seen the application SS-5 for the Connecticut Social Security number 042-68-4425,which Obama is fraudulently using, even now, in the White House, while it failed both E-Verify and SSNVSand showed in multiple databases to be assigned to an immigrant from Russia, Harrison J. Bounel, who was born in 1890, presumed to be deceased without heirs and whose number was illegally assumed by Obama. Why doesn’t he have a valid Social Security number? Sworn affidavitsof top law enforcement officers and experts show him using a forged birth certificate, forged Selective Service certificate, Indonesian citizenship and a last name not legally his. Top ranking officers of the U.S. military have a right to know whether we have a legitimate Commander-in-Chief giving them orders. Other members of the U.S military, law enforcement, FBI, Sheriffs, police officers, District Attorneys, assistant U.S. attorneys and assistant AGs, who share the same concerns as Major General Childers and other officers can write to Attorney Taitz at orly.taitz@gmail.com.

    http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Letter-from-Major-General-Childers.jpg

    If this wasn’t so funny I’d cry! Larry…Active duty retiree and National Guard retiree are two different animals. A two star active duty retiree would not have a problem telling you a two star Guard retiree is not his equal. I would be more impressed if Orly had a letter from an active duty member. Then again, if she did, like Terry Lakin they would be putting their career on the line. I have to admit, I enjoyed following Terry’s stuidity! To all birthers I do say keep it up! I do enjoy the entertainment!

  40. avatar
    The Magic M April 18, 2013 at 3:05 pm #

    Rickey: She should be resting up for when Orly asks her to individually serve every member of Congress.

    … and of the Electoral College. That’s more than 1,000 letters to serve properly. But even with that number, it’s doubtful they’ll get even one right.

  41. avatar
    richCares April 18, 2013 at 3:14 pm #

    Larry, Larry, Larry
    there are no forged documents, it’s Orly’s ruse to get paypal pushes
    that SSN is only tied to Obama, no one else
    tell us how many of Obama’s tax returns have been returned, which would happen if he used someone elses SSN
    .
    go back an push Orly’s paypal

  42. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 18, 2013 at 3:53 pm #

    Rickey: I have never heard anyone refer to the University of Chicago as CU. I have heard it called UC or U of C, but never CU. Vattel is and was influential in international law, but he had little or no influence on the U.S. Constitution. You spout off about Vattel as if you actually know something about him, and then you say something stupid like “he was an old Frenchman.” He wasn’t French. He was Swiss. Look it up. Learn something.

    I must assume you are of recent education as you seem to not completely read the words written in the posting:
    ” the anti-birther were chastizing them for using Vattel as he was an old frenchman and should not be considered in any way part of the American law.”

    And you read that as meaning that I said those words?

    OK your opinion is just a valid as mine!

  43. avatar
    SluggoJD April 18, 2013 at 3:58 pm #

    aarrgghh:
    finally! proof that our lazy, incompetent, weak, narcissistic drug-addled, infantile, teleprompter-addicted puppet-usurper is in fact the diabolical elite cloward/priven-groomed marxist trilateral power-obsessed alien overlord mastermind we always knew him to be …

    </birf>

    LOLOL

  44. avatar
    SluggoJD April 18, 2013 at 4:02 pm #

    saynomorejoe:
    How strange, the birthers were using Vattel as a foundation for their position onsome of the problems with the birth of the President, and , the anti-birther were chastizing them for using Vattel as he was an old frenchman and should not be considered in any way part of the American law.

    Now, lo and behold, the President taught Vattel at CU and now everyone thinks it is a grand course to teach as it is so important to the laws of the world.

    Beliefs are strange, and strange things change beliefs, when foes or friend utter them!

    Why are you still here?

    You’ve been shamed countless times, proven to lie over and over, display overt racism which is unwelcome here, smell really bad, and you’re basically dumber than a rock.

    Haven’t you suffered enough?

  45. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 18, 2013 at 4:04 pm #

    CU Ciudad Universitaria

    Actually I was worried that you folks would think it was Columbia!

    Adjunct Professor, indeed!

    May the highest entity bless you and keep you safe!

  46. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 18, 2013 at 4:07 pm #

    SluggoJD: Why are you still here?You’ve been shamed countless times, proven to lie over and over, display overt racism which is unwelcome here, smell really bad, and you’re basically dumber than a rock.Haven’t you suffered enough?

    Suffering is not something I practice! Suffering is what a a simple fool needs to keep alive!

    I also refuse to believe I am dumber than you, but , your opinion is valid for you!, so continue with your beliefs.

  47. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 18, 2013 at 4:13 pm #

    richCares: Larry, Larry, Larrythere are no forged documents, it’s Orly’s ruse to get paypal pushesthat SSN is only tied to Obama, no one elsetell us how many of Obama’s tax returns have been returned, which would happen if he used someone elses SSN.go back an push Orly’s paypal

    Well, you have inside knowledge that no one else has! Is it your opinion, or do you have evidence that Obama was born in 1890 and lived in Connecticut?

    How would the IRS know whether a SSN is correct or not , the first time it is used?

    I used a fake SSN in 1944 and they still accept my present number and do not seem to know about my fake number! Isn’t that strange In fact , I used two fake numbers in 1944 as I did not have a SSN for myself!

    But I do have my 1947 draft card in my wallet which I received after leaving the USN in 1946

  48. avatar
    richCares April 18, 2013 at 4:25 pm #

    saynomorejoe.
    There is no valid date showing born in 1890, those numbers showed up with Obama’s address in Chicago (1968), no validity to the 1890 birthdate, get a life. Barack Obama will be remembered as long as the Republic lives. Eventually he’ll be on a postage stamp, his home will be a National Park Service site, and there’ll be schools and buildings and ships named after him. Orly, you and all the other birthers will wind up in the trash can of history.
    say no more

  49. avatar
    richCares April 18, 2013 at 4:28 pm #

    “How would the IRS know whether a SSN is correct or not , the first time it is used?”
    after 30 years they may get a clue, irs places funds into social security, you say they errored for 30 years, sure, take off the tin foil hat

  50. avatar
    MattR April 18, 2013 at 4:32 pm #

    saynomorejoe: or do you have evidence that Obama was born in 1890 and lived in Connecticut?

    What evidence do you have that Obama ever lived in Connecticut?

    saynomorejoe: How would the IRS know whether a SSN is correct or not , the first time it is used?
    I used a fake SSN in 1944 and they still accept my present number and do not seem to know about my fake number! Isn’t that strange In fact , I used two fake numbers in 1944 as I did not have a SSN for myself!

    The IRS currently checks each and every return to make sure that the SSN number and name exactly matches what is in the Social Security database. They may not have had the technical means to do that for every person in the 1940’s but they do now. Since Obama has been using the same “fake” number his entire life, at least one year’s taxes should have kicked out with error code 0500. It is not the least bit strange that they currently accept your tax returns with the correct SSN even though you used a fake one in the past.

  51. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 18, 2013 at 4:33 pm #

    richCares: saynomorejoe.There is no valid date showing born in 1890, those numbers showed up with Obama’s address in Chicago (1968), no validity to the 1890 birthdate, get a life. Barack Obama will be remembered as long as the Republic lives. Eventually he’ll be on a postage stamp, his home will be a National Park Service site, and there’ll be schools and buildings and ships named after him. Orly, you and all the other birthers will wind up in the trash can of history.say no more

    And you really are sure of your facts, are you?

    And he was in Chicago in 1968?

    Or was in 1978?

    Or , perhaps, 1988?

    Take your choice there,partner as all of them are wrong!

  52. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 18, 2013 at 4:34 pm #

    Ah, solved! Barack Hussein Obama in 1968 got the number and Obama ll used in after his father died!

  53. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 18, 2013 at 4:40 pm #

    MattR: What evidence do you have that Obama ever lived in Connecticut?The IRS currently checks each and every return to make sure that the SSN number and name exactly matches what is in the Social Security database. They may not have had the technical means to do that for every person in the 1940′s but they do now. Since Obama has been using the same “fake” number his entire life, at least one year’s taxes should have kicked out with error code 0500. It is not the least bit strange that they currently accept your tax returns with the correct SSN even though you used a fake one in the past.

    And that is your opinion, but what as is SSN in 1975 when he worked in Honolulu!

    you may have forgotten that checking SSN’s is not possible if the person does not need to file income tax returns!
    And , actually, if they do that , why do they have so many returns being paid to people with fake id’s and ssn’s when the people are in jail and not working!

    He, may have, yes , may have had a SSN in Occidental that was a 999-99-999 number as one was shown somewhere in the search.

    But, hey, he is an attorney , and attorneys never commit crimes , do they?

  54. avatar
    MattR April 18, 2013 at 4:45 pm #

    saynomorejoe: And , actually, if they do that , why do they have so many returns being paid to people with fake id’s and ssn’s when the people are in jail and not working!

    Because those returns are filed using a name and SSN number that are real and in the SSA database(ie. the prisoner). That is why the person needs a fake ID. So he can pretend to be that prisoner and collect the fake refund.

  55. avatar
    predicto April 18, 2013 at 5:00 pm #

    So saynomorejoe was discharged from the Navy in 1946. That means he is at least in his late 80s, right?

    Perhaps birtherism can be explained best by the sad onrushing of senility.

  56. avatar
    richCares April 18, 2013 at 5:09 pm #

    “Ah, solved! Barack Hussein Obama in 1968 got the number and Obama ll used in after his father died!”
    Wow, where did this come from. Give it up, this issue is dead!
    In Susan Daniels affidavit we find (In Obama’s Somerville address)
    1. DOB: 1990, issued 1977
    2. DOB: 1890, issued 1977
    So you say there are 2 Obama’s that lived in Somerville, one born 1990, the other 1890, no wonder Orly and Daniels are laughed at.
    Every other listing shows DOB: 08/04/1961 and all sow issue date of 1977, no date is shown as year only
    See Daniels source http://www.thefogbow.com/special-reports/social-security-number/
    Note page 13 of her attachment.

  57. avatar
    Paper April 18, 2013 at 5:35 pm #

    Hey, thanks for sharing that bit of information. I would have thought the odds were good that at least one of the many lawyers with whom I have worked would have been guilty of something, even if never caught. But I guess not. Good to know all lawyers are saints.

    saynomorejoe:
    But, hey, he is an attorney , and attorneys never commit crimes , do they?

  58. avatar
    Paper April 18, 2013 at 5:37 pm #

    That has been explained to you before. MattR explains it here again for you. Got it yet?

    saynomorejoe:
    And , actually, if they do that , why do they have so many returns being paid to people with fake id’s and ssn’s when the people are in jail and not working!

  59. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 18, 2013 at 5:41 pm #

    saynomorejoe: Well, you have inside knowledge that no one else has!Is it your opinion, or do you have evidence that Obama was born in 1890 and lived in Connecticut?

    1. There’s no evidence that Obama ever lived in Connecticut. There is absolutelly no reason why someone who has never lived in Connecticut would not get a Connecticut SSN. There’s nothing suspecious about that at all. From the SSA website: “Note: One should not make too much of the geographical code. It is not meant to be any kind of useable geographical information. The numbering scheme was designed in 1936 (before computers) to make it easier for SSA to store the applications in our files in Baltimore since the files were organized by regions as well as alphabetically. It was really just a bookkeeping device for our own internal use and was never intended to be anything more than that.”

    So, let me ask you this: If the SSA assigned someone the wrong Geographic Code, why would they go back and correct it later?

    We’ve given you examples of people, including President Eisenhower himself, who was assigned a SSN from a state that he never lived or worked in.

    How would the IRS know whethera SSN is correct or not , the first time it is used?

    Because computers are wonderful things. They are able to talk to eachother and match things. Someone files a tax return using the name Joe Smith, and using SSN 999-12-3456 (fake number used for purposes of showing you), the Treasury database will go out and talk to the SSN database, and show whether or not Joe Smith has a SSN assigned to him, and whether or not it’s that number.

    I used a fake SSN in 1944 and they still accept my present number and do not seem to know about my fake number! Isn’t that strangeIn fact , I used two fake numbers in 1944 as I did not have a SSN for myself!

    They didn’t require people to have a SSN for filing taxes until 1968, so I don’t see why they’d care.

  60. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 18, 2013 at 5:46 pm #

    saynomorejoeHe, may have, yes , may have had a SSN in Occidental that was a 999-99-999 number as one was shown somewhere in the search.

    The SSN 999-99-9999 would have been red-flagged because just on a curseory look on it, it’s an invalid number since no number starting with a 9 is valid, since the SSA doesn’t assign those (just like any number starting with a 666 is invalid). So, my question is if Obama really wanted to use an SSN that was not his, then why would he use an SSN that would immediately be kicked out as invalid to anybody who reviewed his file to issue him whatever refund that he had? Do you really think that the IRS, wouldn’t at least glance at your tax return? And if they did, don’t you think that they would have noticed an invalid SSN, considering that they deal with these every day?

    And if a Computer was processing it, then why wouldn’t they program the computer to only look at valid SSNs that could actually be assigned?

  61. avatar
    richCares April 18, 2013 at 5:58 pm #

    “saynomorejoe: Well, you have inside knowledge that no one else has!Is it your opinion,
    or do you have evidence that Obama was born in 1890 and lived in Connecticut?”
    1890 appears at Obama’s Sommervilee address
    also
    1990 appears at Obama’s Sommervilee address
    both show the ssn was issued in 1977
    how did someone born in 1990 get a ssn in 1977

  62. avatar
    Rickey April 18, 2013 at 6:13 pm #

    saynomorejoe: I must assume you are of recent education as you seem to not completely read the words written in the posting:
    ” the anti-birther were chastizing them for using Vattel as he was an old frenchman and should not be considered in any way part of the American law.”

    Andyou read that as meaning that I said those words?

    You wrote those words, claiming that anti-birthers consider Vattel to be an old Frenchman. I have never heard an “anti-birther” refer to Vattel as a Frenchman. We all know that he was Swiss, not French.

  63. avatar
    Rickey April 18, 2013 at 6:28 pm #

    saynomorejoe:

    How would the IRS know whether a SSN is correct or not , the first time it is used?

    That’s easy. The first time the IRS receives either withholding tax from an employer or a tax return from the individual they cross-check the name and number with the Social Security Administration.

    Obama has been filing Federal Income Tax returns for years with the same Social Security Number. If his name and SSN did not match the Social Security Administration records, his tax returns would be rejected.

  64. avatar
    Northland10 April 18, 2013 at 6:34 pm #

    saynomorejoe:
    Now, lo and behold, the President taught Vattel at CU and now everyone thinks it is a grand course to teach as it is so important to the laws of the

    He didn’t teach Vattel, he taught a course that Vattel as one of the sources. Did you even read beyond Doc’s eye-catching title?

    Do you, and KBOA, realize that citing a text in a course or having it on a reading list does not mean the professor or class agrees with all or even a part of the text? The point in a class would be, does the text bring a broad perspective on the issue from writers in that period. A class on “the evils of communism” would be useless without a study of what Marx actually said and how Lenin and others used that thinking.

  65. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 18, 2013 at 7:10 pm #

    Ah, the great minds are scurrying in the heads of the believers. And coming up with theories to solve all of the problems,.

    first things first!

    IF, and it is a big IF, a file has been doctored for any reason, it can not be used to verify the information in the file!

    And, IF, a person submits a document, and , IF the document is different than other document filed from the same office on the same day, then, IF the viewer of the document is unbiased, then, IF, the viewer is honest, the viewer will suspect that the document might be false or erroneously filed.

    But, IF , the viewer thought that was an impossible thing to occur, and , IF, the viewer had a biased reason to accept a position that everything was correct with the information provided on the document, then, That viewer would never accept a POSSIBLITY that something was strange about the document.

    So, the world is filled with viewers who believe what they want to believe and will never accept anything that might cause them to believe otherwise,

    I, myself, am absolutely willing to accept that a clerk will accept money to perform an illegal act, and , indeed, there are now reports that even IRS employees cheat the government by filing unemployment claims!

    You may believe in the honesty and trustworthyness of the political employees, but, I , myself, have seen the dishonesty and corruption in said employees, as , I believe, most people have!

  66. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 18, 2013 at 7:38 pm #

    saynomorejoe:

    No, we aren’t coming up. I’m just stating fact. You stated that Obama may have used the SSN 999-99-9999 back when he went to occidential. There is absolutely nothing to support that other than a database that is riddled with errors. It makes no sense for Obama to use 999-99-9999. Anybody who knew anything about SSNs would realize that it was fake within 2 seconds, since the 1st digit of the SSN cannot be 9 (SSN doesn’t issue that number). You provide no explaination as to why he’d use this one, rather than a SSN that was at least on the face facially valid.

    You simultaneously claim that he’s an all-power dictator who ingeniously orchistrated his rise to the top to hide the fact that he’s ineligible, and yet he’s so incompentant that he’d use a SSN that was invalid for some reason, and then later switch to an SSN that the IRS would accept without question, and nobody’s the wiser?

    Isn’t it more likely that the database you’re claiming is infalible has an error in the data there? And if it has an error, then according to your logic, then everything must be questioned coming from that database. So, my question is how do you know that Obama used the birthdate of 1890? It’s obvious from their reporting of the SSN 999-99-9999, that it has errors in it, so could this be another error with the data, rather than something that Obama did?

  67. avatar
    Larry April 18, 2013 at 7:40 pm #

    richCares: “that SSN is only tied to Obama, no one else
    tell us how many of Obama’s tax returns have been returned, which would happen if he used someone elses SSN”

    Yes, and it fails E-varify and SSNVS. I don’t need to tell you what would happen if YOUR SSN failed those tests. Or do I?

  68. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 18, 2013 at 7:41 pm #

    And Saynomorejoe, let me pose to you this question…

    How do you propose your citizenship? You say that you were born overseas to one citizen, and one foreigner. How do we know that it’s true? We all know State Department Employees are corrupt, and therefore, they could have fraudently submitted your record. So, how do we know that you were born to a U.S. Citizen? By your definition, because public employees can falsify data, then we can’t accept anything from what any public employee does, and therefore we can’t accept any sort of birth certificate, because there’s a possibility that the public employee fraudently inserted that birth certificate into the state database!

  69. avatar
    sfjeff April 18, 2013 at 7:44 pm #

    Larry: P>Yes, and it fails E-varify and SSNVS. I don’t need to tell you what would happen if YOUR SSN failed those tests. Or do I?

    Who says it fails E-verify?

    Here is what I always point out- in order to have used the E-verify system to check Obama’s employment status, a person would have had to lie.

    So when a person claims that he checked, and Obama failed E-verify- we automatically know that the person is either lying about checking E-Verify- or lied when using E-verify.

    Once we have established that the person is willing to lie- why would we assume they would be honest about anything?

  70. avatar
    Larry April 18, 2013 at 8:03 pm #

    sfjeff: Who says it fails E-verify?

    Sworn affidavit of private investigator Susan Daniels:

    http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/AffidavitSusanDaniels.pdf

    Sworn affidavit of Linda Jordan

    http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Affidavit-Linda-Jordan-Obamas-SSN1.pdf

    Sworn affidavit of anyone who said it passes . . . still waiting on that one . . .

  71. avatar
    gorefan April 18, 2013 at 8:10 pm #

    Larry: Sworn affidavit of private investigator Susan Daniels:

    I read the Susan Daniels’ affidavit it does not mention e-verify.

  72. avatar
    Larry April 18, 2013 at 8:15 pm #

    gorefan: I read the Susan Daniels’ affidavit it does not mention e-verify.

    Only mentions SSNVS. “No names associated with this SSN” – What does that mean?

  73. avatar
    gorefan April 18, 2013 at 8:22 pm #

    Larry: Only mentions SSNVS

    On which page?

    Also I read the Jordan affidavit – she ran it in August, 2011. The checked reason is “SSA record does not verify, other reasons.” It specifically does not check the box for wrong name, DOB, or US Citizenship. President Obama’s SSN was widely published on the internet in December, 2009. Could his SSN be flagged in the SSA’s system?

    If your SSN was widely published on the internet would you expect the SSA to flag it in their system?

  74. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 18, 2013 at 8:27 pm #

    One occasional crook in public employment doesn’t characterize everyone. What the birthers allege is such massive fraud that one cannot easily count the number of people that would have to be involved.

    On the other hand, I have seen birthers lie up and down, so I know that they have no trustworthiness or competence at all.

    saynomorejoe: You may believe in the honesty and trustworthyness of the political employees, but, I , myself, have seen the dishonesty and corruption in said employees, as , I believe, most people have!

  75. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 18, 2013 at 8:28 pm #

    Since checking it would be a crime, don’t hold your breath waiting for a report from an honest citizen.

    I should point out that the Susan Daniels affidavit you linked to does not say Obama’s SSN failed eVerify. She knows checking it would be a crime.

    Larry: Sworn affidavit of anyone who said it passes . . . still waiting on that one . . .

  76. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 18, 2013 at 8:33 pm #

    It doesn’t say she checked SSNVS either.

    Larry:
    gorefan: I read the Susan Daniels’ affidavit it does not mention e-verify.

    Only mentions SSNVS. “No names associated with this SSN” – What does that mean?

  77. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 18, 2013 at 8:34 pm #

    Larry:
    Sworn affidavit of Linda Jordan

    http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Affidavit-Linda-Jordan-Obamas-SSN1.pdf
    Sworn affidavit of anyone who said it passes. . . still waiting on that one . . .

    Let’s start with Linda Jordan. In her affidavit, it says, “On August 27, 2011, I went back to the E-Verify website and saw that there was a “self-service” function that was more streamlined and easier to use when checking an employee’s eligibility.”

    There is no “Self-Service” option. There is a Self-Check, which is only to be used by the person checking their own eligibility within the system, and not to be used by employers. Part of the terms and services of this is the following, and agree to it:

    Your use of Self Check is for the purpose of learning about your work authorization status and the accuracy of your related government records only. By using the Self Check service, you agree that you will not submit biographical or employment authorization document data that relates to anyone other than yourself. You also agree that you will not run a Self Check query at the request of another party or attempt to use the results of your Self Check query to prove to another party that you are authorized to work or eligible for admission to any organization or receipt of any benefit.

    So, my question to you, Larry. Is she Barack Obama? She must be if she agreed that she would not submit biographical data that relates to anyone other than her? And if she’s not Barack Obama, we know that she’s already lied once. So, why should we believe her when she says that he didn’t verify?

  78. avatar
    Larry April 18, 2013 at 8:40 pm #

    gorefan:

    Page 4

    Also on page 6 says Names Associated with SSN: Garofalo, Michael, Matt

    “SSA record does not verify, other reasons.” – Your guess is as good as mine but still the nagging “SSA record does not verify”. Nothing to be concerned about though I guess?

  79. avatar
    Larry April 18, 2013 at 8:40 pm #

    Dr Conspiracy: Since checking it would be a crime, don’t hold your breath waiting for a report from an honest citizen :

    Sworn affidavit of Linda Jordan

    http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Affidavit-Linda-Jordan-Obamas-SSN1.pdf

  80. avatar
    Larry April 18, 2013 at 8:44 pm #

    dunstvangeet :

    why should we believe her when she says that he didn’t verify?:

    Sworn affidavit of Linda Jordan

    http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Affidavit-Linda-Jordan-Obamas-SSN1.pdf

    And let the courts decide . . . So far no prosecution of Jordan

  81. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 18, 2013 at 8:46 pm #

    Larry,

    She violated the terms and services and illegally obtained that information at the very least. She’s not honest. In order to access that information, she had to agree that she would only submit information about herself, and then submitted information about Barack Obama.

    So, we’re left with two alternatives,

    Either she is Barack Obama.

    Or, she lied to the Self-Check system. And if she lied to the self-check system and obtained this information illegally, then why should we trust her to tell us the truth now?

  82. avatar
    gorefan April 18, 2013 at 8:50 pm #

    Larry: Page 4
    Also on page 6 says Names Associated with SSN: Garofalo, Michael, Matt

    You’re an idiot.

    Page 4 is the SSN for Thomas Woods his is xxx-xx-4424
    Page 6 is the SSN for Michael Garolalo his is xxx-xx-4426

    President Obama’s is xxx-xx-4425.

  83. avatar
    Larry April 18, 2013 at 8:51 pm #

    dunstvangeet

    we’re left with two alternatives,

    or a third:

    maybe we have 2 crooks (one checking on another)? Whether the info was obtained legit or not I don’t know. But the results returned were a little, uh, interesting.

  84. avatar
    gorefan April 18, 2013 at 8:52 pm #

    Larry: Sworn affidavit of Linda Jordan

    When did she do the e-verify?

    When was President Obama’s SSN published on the internet?

    Please show us the results of e-verify before his SSN was broadcast on the internet.

  85. avatar
    Larry April 18, 2013 at 8:57 pm #

    gorefan

    Page 5 “Date of birth associated with SSN: 1890 AND 1961

    This SSN is questionable.

  86. avatar
    Larry April 18, 2013 at 9:00 pm #

    gorefan

    He didn’t flatten the file when it was posted on the internet etc. Everybody knows the story – The number was visible and the same one checked by Jordon et al.

  87. avatar
    gorefan April 18, 2013 at 9:01 pm #

    Larry: You’re an idiot and this SSN is questionable.

    Where is the SSNVS in the Daniels’ affidavit? You are either an idiot or a liar. There is no third choice.

  88. avatar
    Larry April 18, 2013 at 9:07 pm #

    gorefan

    Where is the SSNVS in the Daniels’ affidavit?

    Page 5: SSN Verifier Plus = SSNVS

    See item 9 – “True and correct copies obtained are attached”

  89. avatar
    Majority Will April 18, 2013 at 9:10 pm #

    Larry: or a third:

    maybe we have 2 crooks (one checking on another)?

    Or a fourth could be that you’re babbling incoherently about a system of which you have no clue while blinded by severe ODS.

    Do you take the fifth?

  90. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 18, 2013 at 9:10 pm #

    Larry:
    gorefan

    He didn’t flatten the file when it was posted on the internet etc. Everybody knows the story –The number was visible and the same one checked by Jordon et al.

    And it’s perfectly reasonable that once Obama’s SSN was published out on the internet, he got a new one. It happens all the time. One of the more famous cases was the LifeLock CEO who used his real SSN in his advertizements, well he got a new SSN, and people started using his SSN fraudently. Did that ever occur to you?

    But I ask you again, Linda Jordan obtained that information by lying to the E-Verify system. She claimed that she was Barack Obama. She’s a liar, plain and simple, and if she was ever to be put up on a stand, that would come out to impeach her.

  91. avatar
    gorefan April 18, 2013 at 9:14 pm #

    Larry:
    gorefan

    He didn’t flatten the file when it was posted on the internet etc. Everybody knows the story –The number was visible and the same one checked by Jordon et al.

    Apparently you do not know the story. Orly Taitz published his SSN in December, 2009 in a letter to Attorney General Holder. The e-verify was ran in August, 2011.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2408352/posts

    Since you mention the DOB of 1890. Here is another Daniels’ affidavit,

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/31235646/Private-Investigator-Susan-Daniels-Court-Affidavit-Regarding-Obama-s-Social-Security-Number-s

    Page 13 –

    Fifth record for 365 Broadway B, Somerville, Massachusetts 02145, First reported in 08/01/1988 – 09/01/1988, SSN issued 1977-1979 in CT, DOB 1990

    Twelfth record for 365 Broadway B, Somerville, Massachusetts 02145, SSN issued 1977-1979 in CT, DOB 1890

    How is a SSN issued in 1977-1979 and entered in the credit databases in 1988 have a 1990 DOB?

    The databases are questionable.

  92. avatar
    Larry April 18, 2013 at 9:16 pm #

    dunstvangeet

    “And it’s perfectly reasonable that once Obama’s SSN was published out on the internet, he got a new one. It happens all the time.”

    Yeah, that’s probably it.

    “She’s a liar, plain and simple”

    Or maybe she didn’t read the fine print before using the system . . . “It happens all the time”

  93. avatar
    gorefan April 18, 2013 at 9:18 pm #

    Larry: Page 5: SSN Verifier Plus = SSNVS

    That says the only name associated with that SSN is Barack Obama. It says nothing about not passing or mismatch.

  94. avatar
    gorefan April 18, 2013 at 9:19 pm #

    Larry: Everybody knows the story

    Apparently you do not know the story.

    Orly Taitz published his SSN in December, 2009 in a letter to Attorney General Holder. The e-verify was ran in August, 2011.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2408352/posts

  95. avatar
    MattR April 18, 2013 at 9:19 pm #

    Larry: Page 5: SSN Verifier Plus = SSNVS

    How do we know this?

  96. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 18, 2013 at 9:20 pm #

    It’s not that fine print. It’s published all-over the website, including in the FAQs.

    http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=b9239a47044ad210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=68d27cd67450d210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD

    If she just checked that. Then she had to go through the Terms and Services, which included on the very first paragraph of that self-check system, it says that you agree that you’re only. It requires you to say that you’ve read the terms and services, and agree to them. So, either she lied that she had read them and agreed to them, she didn’t read anything about the self-check system, or she directly lied.

  97. avatar
    Larry April 18, 2013 at 9:23 pm #

    gorefan

    “That says the only name associated with that SSN is Barack Obama. It says nothing about not passing or mismatch.”

    Your question was “Where is the SSNVS in the Daniels’ affidavit?”

    It’s on Page 5 with birthdate (s)? 1890 and 1961 associated with SSN. This is associated with item #8 on affidavit.

  98. avatar
    Larry April 18, 2013 at 9:30 pm #

    dunstvangeet :

    “If she just checked that. Then she had to go through the Terms and Services, which included on the very first paragraph of that self-check system, it says that you agree that you’re only. It requires you to say that you’ve read the terms and services, and agree to them. So, either she lied that she had read them and agreed to them, she didn’t read anything about the self-check system, or she directly lied.”

    I know you always read the terms and conditions with computer software but to some it’s just time consuming legal gobilty-gook. They check the box “Yes I read it” and move on with their lives. Sometimes they actually get away with that ie if you’re installing Excel or something. Anyway, I don’t know if she did that – just a thought at the time.

  99. avatar
    gorefan April 18, 2013 at 9:32 pm #

    Larry:
    gorefan

    “That says the only name associated with that SSN is Barack Obama. It says nothing about not passing or mismatch.”

    Your question was “Where is the SSNVS in the Daniels’ affidavit?”

    It’s on Page 5 with birthdate (s)? 1890 and 1961 associated with SSN. This is associated with item #8 on affidavit.

    You can understand my confusion, first, you said it was on page 4 and page 6.

    BTW, SSNVS is not the same as SSN Verifier Plus. SSNVS is a government program run by the Social Security Administration and is free to employers, while SSN Verifier Plus is fee based program run by a private company (National Employment Screening).

    http://www.national-employment-screening.com/social-security-verifier-plus.htm

  100. avatar
    gorefan April 18, 2013 at 9:38 pm #

    Larry: “Where is the SSNVS in the Daniels’ affidavit?”

    SSNVS is not the same as SSN Verifier Plus. SSNVS is a government program run by the Social Security Administration and is free to employers, while SSN Verifier Plus is fee based program run by a private company (National Employment Screening).

  101. avatar
    Larry April 18, 2013 at 9:39 pm #

    dunstvangeet / gorefan

    “Oh, and the SSNVS is a private site not affiliated with the system, and their data isn’t accurate. I ran it on myself. It is probably a simple program that stats approximately when it was issued (it was not accurate when I ran it on myself), and what state. I ran it on myself, and it put my SSN as being issued 6 years after I know it was . . .”

    I am no expert on this stuff either – for me it’s just concerning that the SSN comes up with questions in these programs and nobody has every said definitely why. When you put that up with Arpaio/Zullo’s findings and the b.certificate controversies (I know – another can of worms) . . .

  102. avatar
    gorefan April 18, 2013 at 9:40 pm #

    Hi Doc.

    I have several comments to Larry that are being held up in moderation. Maybe because they have links?

  103. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 18, 2013 at 9:46 pm #

    So, you agree that she lied when she stated that she read the terms and agreements, and therefore, her data was illegally obtained. There’s no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

    Is Linda Jordan, “Barack Obama”? When it asked her questions about “you” (there’s about 4 questions that you have to go through which specifically reference “you” such as “At which of the following, now or in the past, have you worked?”, “Which of the above is your start date of the above referenced employer?”, “On which of the following streets have you lived?”, or “Which of the following is either your current phone number, or your previous phone number?” to verify her identity as Barack Obama.

    They all asked her questions with the word “You” on it, asking her questions about Barack Obama. None of them have the word “the person”, none of them have the word “your employee” on them. None of them have anything to indicate that they are asking questions about anybody but “you”. So, in order for you to believe that she had no idea is the following: She had to not read the terms and conditions, then she had to figure that when they were asking questions about “you”, they really meant Barack Obama, her employee, and not the person running the check. And never realize that she was using it illegitimately?

  104. avatar
    gorefan April 18, 2013 at 9:46 pm #

    Larry: I am no expert on this stuff either – for me it’s just concerning that the SSN comes up with questions in these programs and nobody has every said definitely why.

    The databases that are being used have mistakes and errors.

    You obviously didn’t know that the same database that shows a 1890 on the same page shows a 1990 DOB and that the 1990 entry was first entered in the database in 1988 while it says his SSN was issued in 1977-1979.

    The databases are questionable.

    These databases are aggregators of other databases. If the clerk entering your data transposes a number, that’s how it is reported.

  105. avatar
    MattR April 18, 2013 at 9:52 pm #

    Since we are talking about SSN mismatches, this post from July 9, 2008 might be instructive.

    In Canada, it is rare to find somebody with two Social Insurance Numbers (SIN). Where this happens it may be a case of clerical error or a reference to a former SIN appropriated by an identity thief. The former reason is extremely rare. In thirty years I have only encountered this once. The Canadian SIN is used as an identifier less than the SSN is in the USA.

    However, in the USA the case is somewhat different. According to Susan Daniels, of Daniels and Associates Investigations, Inc. in Chardon Ohio, when searching through database aggregators such as IRB, it is common to find a subject referenced with two or three Social Security Numbers (SSN). Here are some of the reasons a person may show-up with multiple SSN’s:

    a wife’s or child’s SSN could end up with father’s name
    a parent’s SSN could show up with a child
    the subject bought something with someone else and the SSNs could end up with each other’s name
    the database producer is relating several SSN’s to one address
    an error by whoever entered the data

  106. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 18, 2013 at 9:52 pm #

    Larry: I am no expert on this stuff either – for me it’s just concerning that the SSN comes up with questions in these programs and nobody has every said definitely why. When you put that up with Arpaio/Zullo’s findings and the b.certificate controversies (I know – another can of worms)

    Arpaio/Zullo have been caught fabricating evidence and lying. Furthermore, they refuse to accept the Hawaii Department of Health which has said at least 5 different times that Barack Obama’s birth certificate is either “valid” or that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.

  107. avatar
    Larry April 18, 2013 at 9:53 pm #

    gorefan

    “The databases are questionable.

    These databases are aggregators of other databases. If the clerk entering your data transposes a number, that’s how it is reported.”

    Also “SSNVS is not the same as SSN Verifier Plus.”

    Thanks for these.

    Here is the SSNVS link showing “Results – failed”.

    http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/SSNVS-verification1.pdf

  108. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 18, 2013 at 9:59 pm #

    And again, Fraudently obtained, because in order to get that, you have to agree that you are Obama’s employer, which you are not (the Federal Government is. No single person is the employer of Obama under that law).

    Obama probably has a new SSN with his SSN being published all over the internet. Why would his old SSN verify?

  109. avatar
    gorefan April 18, 2013 at 10:03 pm #

    Larry: Here is the SSNVS link showing “Results – failed”.

    This is not the work of Susan Daniels but of Colonel Greg Hollister. He ran the check in 2010. Again this is one year after the President’s SSN was first published on the internet.

    If your SSN was published on several websites would want the Social Security Administration to at the least flag your number, so no one else could use it?

  110. avatar
    MattR April 18, 2013 at 10:04 pm #

    dunstvangeet: Obama probably has a new SSN with his SSN being published all over the internet. Why would his old SSN verify?

    Larry – If you ever want to get any of us to consider your theory that Obama is using a fake SSN, you have to explain why all the evidence you have provided would not also exist if Obama had received a new SSN after his initial one was published all over the Internet (or why the evidence is inconsistent with that theory)

  111. avatar
    Majority Will April 18, 2013 at 10:05 pm #

    “When you put that up with Arpaio/Zullo’s findings and the b.certificate controversies (I know – another can of worms) . . .”

    Sane people see a mountain of crap fabricated by liars and con artists.

    Birther bigots see yummy chocolate coins.

  112. avatar
    Larry / gorefan April 18, 2013 at 10:05 pm #

    dunstvangeet

    “they refuse to accept the Hawaii Department of Health which has said at least 5 different times that Barack Obama’s birth certificate is either “valid” or that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.”

    The problem here, (again, as I understand it), is that the issuers of the document in dispute (as a possible forgery) are the ones verifying the document and won’t let anyone else see it.

    Regarding Arpaio/Zullo fabricating evidence and lying I haven’t heard of that at all, but I am concerned/flabergasted that if they have “admissible evidence” why they have not filed charges of some kind.

    A lot of questions – man I’m not sure I want to get into all this tonight. Thanks for the discussion.

  113. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 18, 2013 at 10:16 pm #

    Larry…

    Of course they won’t anybody see it, because it’s against the law for them to do so, and doesn’t make sense for anybody to just show up at the Hawaii Department of Health, demand to see the original birth certificate, and get out. There’s no provision in the law for anybody to get into those vaults but employees of the Hawaii Department of Health. But I’ll digress.

    As far as people seeing the birth certificate. We have the ones from the Obama Campaign and Obama Administration. The press have seen physical copies of both, and they have been deemed good enough that even WND’s own White House Correspondent said that it settled the issue for him.

    Factcheck has seen the short-form, and taken 9 high-resolution photographs of it. You can see those photographs here:

    http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_1.jpg

    Replace the number 1 with any number between 1 and 9 to see other photographs.

    Politifact emailed a image to Janice Okubo, the Hawaii Department of Health, and got this response back: “It’s a valid Hawaii state birth certificate.” Hawaii not only officially certified this.

    Then when it comes to the Long-Form, you have an affidavit from not only Alvin Onaka (State registrar), but also from Loraine Fuddy (the director of the Hawaii Department of Health). You have an almost-impeccible chain of custody (given directly to the lawyer of Obama, who flew it to the White House). You have the official certification of that document, and reporters saying that they saw the actual document and felt the seal.

    Then you have the official verifications of that document. The Hawaii Department of Health directly told the Arizona Attorney General that Obama was born in Hawaii, and that all the information contained on the PDF was true. They did the same thing on a Mississippi Court Case as well.

    The birth certificate is the only admissible thing that the Cold Case Posse actually has.

  114. avatar
    Paper April 18, 2013 at 10:17 pm #

    Never mind that she allegedly is a lawyer. Never mind how amusing it would be to hear her use that excuse on a judge. “Your honor, I didn’t read it because it is just legal gobilty-gook.”

    Larry:

    I know you always read the terms and conditions with computer software but to some it’s just time consuming legal gobilty-gook. They check the box “Yes I read it” and move on with their lives. Sometimes they actually get away with that ie if you’re installing Excel or something. Anyway, I don’t know if she did that – just a thought at the time.

  115. avatar
    Majority Will April 18, 2013 at 10:21 pm #

    Paper:
    Never mind that she allegedly is a lawyer.Never mind how amusing it would be to hear her use that excuse on a judge.“Your honor, I didn’t read it because it is just legal gobilty-gook.”

    Why would a birther bigot show any respect for the law?

  116. avatar
    Larry April 18, 2013 at 10:22 pm #

    dunstvangeet:

    Several posts have been yanked.

    I think you mentioned something about Hawaii verifying the BC several times. My issue there was that the issuers of the document in dispute (as a possible forgery) are verifying the document and won’t let anyone else see it.

    Arpaio/Zullo – I have not heard of them falsifying anything but if they have “admissible evidence” then my question is why have they not filed charges?

    As in my yanked post – enough already – thanks for the discussion.

  117. avatar
    Whatever4 April 18, 2013 at 10:32 pm #

    When E-verify Self-Check was launched in March 2011, it didn’t cover all states until March 2012. Illinois was not one of the states covered on 8/17/2011, did the system consider Obama’s address to be DC or IL? http://www.legallanguage.com/legal-articles/e-verify-self-check-expands/

    According to the press release from DHS, far more than just name, DOB, and SSN were required, but that’s all that Jordan says she entered. A quiz to ensure identity was required. http://www.dhs.gov/news/2011/03/21/fact-sheet-dhs-launches-e-verify-self-check

    What bothers me is that Jordan’s work can’t be checked. What message would be generated if there was a state mismatch? Or if Obama’s SSN was flagged as belonging to a celebrity?

    Also from a 9/26/2011 article: “Groups have also criticized the E-Verify system as being fraught with inaccuracies, leading to many individuals being rejected for employment due to systemic problems.”

  118. avatar
    Rickey April 18, 2013 at 11:00 pm #

    Larry:

    Arpaio/Zullo – I have not heard of them falsifying anything but if they have “admissible evidence” then my question is why have they not filed charges?

    The answer is that they have no evidence of a crime, admissible or otherwise. All they have is gossip, innuendo, and crank theories from “experts” who have no discernible expertise. And even if they did have evidence of crime, they do not have jurisdiction.

    Zullo falsified information about the birth certificate codes which were being used by Hawaii in 1961. Zullo is not a police officer, and Arpaio hasn’t said anything about this since last summer.

  119. avatar
    BillTheCat April 18, 2013 at 11:29 pm #

    Ouch, Larry seems to be a dim bulb. E-Verify, lol… Try harder. And no one cares what Zullo has, the Cold Cuts Posse is a scam based on lies, and nothing they “have” will ever be presented in a court of law. He should go back to used car sales before it’s too late.

  120. avatar
    e.vattel April 18, 2013 at 11:50 pm #

    Is this website claiming the ‘savages” chapter posted above is from Vattel?

  121. avatar
    Larry April 18, 2013 at 11:53 pm #

    “Of course they won’t anybody see it, because it’s against the law for them to do so, and doesn’t make sense for anybody to just show up at the Hawaii Department of Health, demand to see the original birth certificate, and get out. There’s no provision in the law for anybody to get into those vaults but employees of the Hawaii Department of Health. ”

    a. The issuers of the document in dispute as a possible forgery (making them possible participants in forgery) verify the document and won’t let anyone else see it. What could possibly go wrong? Can you see a potential problem there?

    b. Why did Gov. Abercrombie, who was going to solve this whole thing by producing the BC, come up empty-handed. As I recall, he had some blather about “Oh, well, yes, there’s something there, part handwritten, yes, ah, part typed” (not what was released to press, internet, court or anyone else). The Gov should have been able to get his hands on the document in minutes by picking up the telephone – the Gov (the GOV !) couldn’t and did not produce the BC as he advertised. Why? Is there a BC? Did he see it or didn’t he? It’s just a BC. Why all this? Sorry, but something just doesn’t add up here.

  122. avatar
    Larry April 19, 2013 at 12:05 am #

    Above post was reply to dunstvangeet

  123. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 19, 2013 at 12:22 am #

    Larry:a. The issuers of the document in dispute as a possible forgery (making them possible participants in forgery) verify the document and won’t let anyone else see it. What could possibly go wrong? Can you see a potential problem there?

    Hate to tell you this, but you have a set of problems.

    1. The State of Hawaii cannot forge a Hawaiian birth certificate. By definition, they can’t do it. So, what you’re wanting is the State of Hawaii to open their archives, lead someone down to the room that by law nobody but Hawaii Department of Health employees can set foot in, and then allow some random yahoo to inspect it, just to disprove something that is a legal impossibility? Where in Hawaiian law do you find this. The Hawaii Department of Health has said that Obama was born there. You don’t get to go, “Well, you say he was born there, but I think, though I have absolutely no evidence to counter it, that it may be forged. So, I want you to allow me to inspect the record you have on file.”

    2. There is actually no evidence that the birth certificate is forged. What you have is a bunch of random yahoos claiming to be experts, doing things that would not stand up to a Daubert hearing in a court of law and then claiming that something that’s completely innocuous that they don’t understand is evidence of Forgery. Not one of the people who have declared the birth certificate to be a forgery is an expert in either Computer Forensics, or Questioned Document Examination. And in fact, at least 5 real experts who have looked at it have said that they find nothing suspicious about the so-called anomalies that the birthers say is innocuous.

    b. Why did Gov. Abercrombie, who was going to solve this whole thing by producing the BC, come up empty-handed. As I recall, he had some blather about “Oh, well, yes, there’s something there, part handwritten, yes, ah, part typed” (not what was released to press, internet, court or anyone else). The Gov should have been able to get his hands on the document in minutes by picking up the telephone – the Gov (the GOV !) couldn’t and did not produce the BC as he advertised. Why? Is there a BC? Did he see it or didn’t he? It’s just a BC. Why all this? Sorry, but something just doesn’t add up here.

    Gov. Abercrombie said that a birth certificate was there. However, Hawaii and Federal Law prevent him from releasing it. Furthermore, he was looking towards trying to get other information released, but found out that privacy laws prevented from it being released. There’s nothing suspicious about it.

    Both of these have been covered in depth on this website.

  124. avatar
    gorefan April 19, 2013 at 12:31 am #

    e.vattel:
    Is this website claiming the ‘savages” chapter posted above is from Vattel?

    Book II CHAPTER VII Effects of the Domain, between Nations

    1797 edition

    The savages of North America had no right to appropriate all that vast continent to themselves

    1758 edition

    Les Sauvages de l’Amérique septentrionale n’avoient point droit de s’appropriér tout ce vaste Continent;

  125. avatar
    gorefan April 19, 2013 at 12:32 am #

    Larry: What could possibly go wrong? Can you see a potential problem there?

    That would be true for every birth certificate in the United States. All someone has to do is make an unsubstantiated claim about forgery.

  126. avatar
    Keith April 19, 2013 at 1:03 am #

    Larry: My issue there was that the issuers of the document in dispute (as a possible forgery) are verifying the document and won’t let anyone else see it.

    And what could possibly motivate them to perpetuate a fraud that happened almost 60 years ago? How many of DoH Directors and other functionaries have held office in those 60 years? Why would they want to endanger their own reputation and that of Hawai’i and the very purpose of the office they held when the next Director may well just decide to expose them all?

  127. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 19, 2013 at 1:13 am #

    dunstvangeet: No, we aren’t coming up. I’m just stating fact. You stated that Obama may have used the SSN 999-99-9999 back when he went to occidential. There is absolutely nothing to support that other than a database that is riddled with errors. It makes no sense for Obama to use 999-99-9999. Anybody who knew anything about SSNs would realize that it was fake within 2 seconds, since the 1st digit of the SSN cannot be 9 (SSN doesn’t issue that number). You provide no explaination as to why he’d use this one, rather than a SSN that was at least on the face facially valid.You simultaneously claim that he’s an all-power dictator who ingeniously orchistrated his rise to the top to hide the fact that he’s ineligible, and yet he’s so incompentant that he’d use a SSN that was invalid for some reason, and then later switch to an SSN that the IRS would accept without question, and nobody’s the wiser?Isn’t it more likely that the database you’re claiming is infalible has an error in the data there? And if it has an error, then according to your logic, then everything must be questioned coming from that database. So, my question is how do you know that Obama used the birthdate of 1890? It’s obvious from their reporting of the SSN 999-99-9999, that it has errors in it, so could this be another error with the data, rather than something that Obama did?

    Nothing is obvious to anyone except those that want to believe fairy storys!

    You use 999-99-9999 when you apply for a job in the 1980s where you do not expect to have withholding paid or pay taxes! Or just to put it in place to get a part-time job where the employer requires it.

    I don’t know that Obama did anything at all, as all of the information is sealed and not available to me, might be available to you but not to me!

    When I worked for the government, if I wanted to create a file, I took a document filled it in, stamped it received, and placed it in the file where I wanted it to be. With hand stamps you just change the date to what every you want it to be, stamp it received, and then put the stamp back with an up-to-date entry in it.

    When people go to look at the file they can not tell when it was received , unless I would be stupid enough to use a form dated after the date I stamped on it. And that appears to have happened in some cases.

    You must be naive to not know how to do these things in the days of paper!

    You must realize the birth certificate fraud, driver’s license fraud, and id fraud was rampant in those days, and still is today.

    So something the other day that a birth certificate and driver’s license costs $100 in Los Angeles from the fraudsters.

  128. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 19, 2013 at 1:20 am #

    dunstvangeet: And Saynomorejoe, let me pose to you this question…How do you propose your citizenship? You say that you were born overseas to one citizen, and one foreigner. How do we know that it’s true? We all know State Department Employees are corrupt, and therefore, they could have fraudently submitted your record. So, how do we know that you were born to a U.S. Citizen? By your definition, because public employees can falsify data, then we can’t accept anything from what any public employee does, and therefore we can’t accept any sort of birth certificate, because there’s a possibility that the public employee fraudently inserted that birth certificate into the state database!

    you don’t know a darn thing about me birth certificate, just like you don’t know a darn thing about Obama’s bc, because you have never seen it.

    I served in the USN in 1940, when you had to be a citizen to serve in the Navy!

    But that means nothing to non-believers as you can not prove anything.

    Just like Obama I can not prove anything, the only people that can are the judicial branch employees and they have to take the word of the investigators.

  129. avatar
    e.vattel April 19, 2013 at 1:24 am #

    2nd request: Is this website claiming the ‘savages” chapter posted above is from Vattel?

  130. avatar
    gorefan April 19, 2013 at 1:26 am #

    e.vattel:
    2nd request:Is this website claiming the ‘savages” chapter posted above is from Vattel?

    2nd response

    Book II CHAPTER VII Effects of the Domain, between Nations

    1797 edition

    The savages of North America had no right to appropriate all that vast continent to themselves

    1758 edition

    Les Sauvages de l’Amérique septentrionale n’avoient point droit de s’appropriér tout ce vaste Continent;

  131. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 19, 2013 at 1:26 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: One occasional crook in public employment doesn’t characterize everyone. What the birthers allege is such massive fraud that one cannot easily count the number of people that would have to be involved. On the other hand, I have seen birthers lie up and down, so I know that they have no trustworthiness or competence at all.

    With due respect, Dr. Conspiracy, is everything you say an absolute fact, or just, sometimes, you opinion as to the facts of the matter.

    you are just like me, in that you will interpret the information in a way that best suits your beliefs.

  132. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 19, 2013 at 1:31 am #

    Keith: And what could possibly motivate them to perpetuate a fraud that happened almost 60 years ago? How many of DoH Directors and other functionaries have held office in those 60 years? Why would they want to endanger their own reputation and that of Hawai’i and the very purpose of the office they held when the next Director may well just decide to expose them all?

    Just what would make you assume that the fraud, if it happened, happened 60 years ago!

    It is a simple matter to insert things into computer files, and into paper files, when someone in the government wants it done!

    Take the issuance of fake bc for witness protections, they are created , filed in the proper sequence, and then the original is sealed from view, and the fake put in its place with the same number.

    Everything disappears into the files

  133. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 19, 2013 at 1:33 am #

    gorefan: That would be true for every birth certificate in the United States. All someone has to do is make an unsubstantiated claim about forgery.

    You do remember that the Bustamante Xlll was issued and when subject to inspection by the gov ernment determined to be a fraudulent filing of documents.
    And the response to that is to issue a copy of the complete bc, which the child is entitled to recieve under the law, and subject that to examination by the examiners.

  134. avatar
    BillTheCat April 19, 2013 at 1:33 am #

    saynomorejoe: With due respect, Dr. Conspiracy, is everything you say an absolute fact, or just, sometimes, you opinion as to the facts of the matter.

    you are just like me, in that you will interpret the information in a way that best suits your beliefs.

    Nope. We work with FACTS, verifiable ones – not fantasy, conjecture, biased opinion, and not lies.

  135. avatar
    Rickey April 19, 2013 at 1:37 am #

    saynomorejoe

    You use 999-99-9999 when you apply for a job in the 1980s where you do not expect to have withholding paid or pay taxes!Or just to put it in place to get a part-time job where the employer requires it.

    Nonsense. There is no such thing as a job where you do not expect to have withholding taxes. The only way an employee can avoid withholding is to fill out a W-4 and claim enough exemptions to zero out your withholding – but you have to put a valid SSN on the W-4. Even part-time workers at McDonald’s have to fill out a W-4 when hired.

  136. avatar
    Rickey April 19, 2013 at 1:38 am #

    e.vattel:
    2nd request:Is this website claiming the ‘savages” chapter posted above is from Vattel?

    Did you bother to click on the link at the top of the page?

  137. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 19, 2013 at 1:40 am #

    dunstvangeet: 1. The State of Hawaii cannot forge a Hawaiian birth certificate. By definition, they can’t do it. So, what you’re wanting is the State of Hawaii to open their archives, lead someone down to the room that by law nobody but Hawaii Department of Health employees can set foot in, and then allow some random yahoo to inspect it, just to disprove something that is a legal impossibility?

    there is no such law in the Hawaiian laws that state that only employees of the HDOH can go into the archives.

    That is self evident because the AG’s office can go into any office in the State of Hawaii!

  138. avatar
    gorefan April 19, 2013 at 1:43 am #

    saynomorejoe: You use 999-99-9999 when you apply for a job in the 1980s where you do not expect to have withholding paid or pay taxes!

    The problem with the 999 as it concerns President Obama is that the 999 SSNs first showed up in the databases after 2005. By then he was a US Senator.

  139. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 19, 2013 at 1:46 am #

    dunstvangeet: As far as people seeing the birth certificate. We have the ones from the Obama Campaign and Obama Administration. The press have seen physical copies of both, and they have been deemed good enough that even WND’s own White House Correspondent said that it settled the issue for him.

    Double standards, No qualified examiner has seen the documents, but the Press has seen them and think they are good enough.

    And the Press is now qualified to tell fake from true!

    And you believe the Press always tells the truth?

    And then the Press that says it is fake is accurate? Or only the ones that you believe are accurate are acceptable?

  140. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 19, 2013 at 1:51 am #

    OK back to the facts.

    Why is it possible that places like Enron, JP Morgan, and other big companies can create fake documents , such as Madoff did, and the Government can not create a fake birth certificate when the HDOH allows them to do just that?

    And that it is and was such a big problem that they OIG of HHS investigated it three times and each time found that it was a big problem for the government

    You actually don’t believe that the government and businesses can create fake documents, get them in files, and make them believable?

    Do you watch the news?

  141. avatar
    e.vattel April 19, 2013 at 1:52 am #

    Let’s be clear..is this site claiming the “savages” paragraph posted above is from Vattel. It’s all I’m asking.

    Either it is or it isn’t.

  142. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 19, 2013 at 1:54 am #

    gorefan: The problem with the 999 as it concerns President Obama is that the 999 SSNs first showed up in the databases after 2005. By then he was a US Senator.

    See how easy it is, as they were used in 1980 at Occidental, according to information that may or may not be accurate.

    So they stuck them in there, perhaps, in the 1980 index!

  143. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 19, 2013 at 1:58 am #

    gorefan: This is not the work of Susan Daniels but of Colonel Greg Hollister. He ran the check in 2010. Again this is one year after the President’s SSN was first published on the internet. If your SSN was published on several websites would want the Social Security Administration to at the least flag your number, so no one else could use it?

    To use it , wouldn’t they have to say they were Barack Hussein Obama ll as the checking would throw it out with a different name!

  144. avatar
    Rickey April 19, 2013 at 2:01 am #

    e.vattel:
    Let’s be clear..is this site claiming the “savages” paragraph posted above is from Vattel. It’s all I’m asking.

    Either it is or it isn’t.

    http://www.constitution.org/vattel/vattel_02.htm

  145. avatar
    gorefan April 19, 2013 at 2:03 am #

    saynomorejoe: See how easy it is, as they were used in 1980 at Occidental, according to information that may or may not be accurate.

    They can also be entered by someone other then President Obama, filling out a store credit application as a joke.

    How many SSNs are associated with Mick E. Mouse have?

    The point is that the public databases are worthless by themselves, someone has to go out and show that the particular piece of information is legit. So far no one has followed up on the SSNs that supposedly are associated with President Obama’s name. No one has shown any link between him and any of these SSNs.

    It is not a coincidence that all of these SSNs don’t show up in the database until after he becomes famous. Think about it, if he was using fake SSNs when he was a starving student or before he ran for the US Senate, the first reports of these SSNs in the databases would be in the 1980s and 1990s, but the first reports are after 2000 and in almost every case after 2004.

  146. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 19, 2013 at 2:05 am #

    An example of debunking,

    Obama SSN from connecticut, shows that it was issued because the typist missed typed the number by using 0 instead of 9, which shows that the SSN was ok as it was just a typographical error.

    But, of course, it was just happenstance that the typo was in the first number, as it could not have happened with the other four numbers., Right!
    I chance if 5 that the typo would result in the exact way it did, but that is the only explanation needed.

    And it just happened to hit a number that had already been issued !

    But, hey, we know it must have been that way, otherwise we would have to admit there is a problem

  147. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 19, 2013 at 2:06 am #

    saynomorejoe: there is no such law in the Hawaiian laws that state that only employees of the HDOH can go into the archives.

    That is self evident because the AG’s office can go into any office in the State of Hawaii!

    Hawaii Administrative Rules, Chapter 111, Public Health Regulations, Chapter 8B. Read it.

    http://gen.doh.hawaii.gov/sites/har/AdmRules1/8%208A%20B%20VR%20Admin%20Rules.pdf

    Vital Records authorized under Chapter 388, Hawaii Revised Statues, are not available for or open to public inspection

    And then we have this Gem…

    The State Registrar, the assistant State Registrar, and Employees of the Research and Statistics Office shall have access…

  148. avatar
    gorefan April 19, 2013 at 2:07 am #

    saynomorejoe: To use it , wouldn’t they have to say they were Barack Hussein Obama ll as the checking would throw it out with a different name!

    SSNVS is for employers – if I recall Hollister lie on the form and claimed he was President Obama’s employer.

    E-verify has a self-check option. If I recall Jordan lied and said she was Barack Obama.

  149. avatar
    gorefan April 19, 2013 at 2:09 am #

    saynomorejoe:
    An example of debunking,

    Obama SSN from connecticut, shows that it was issued because the typist missed typed the number by using 0 instead of 9, which shows that the SSN was ok as it was just a typographical error.

    But, of course, it was just happenstance that the typo was in the first number, as it could not have happened with the other four numbers.,Right!
    I chance if 5 that the typo would result in the exact way it did, but that is the only explanation needed.

    And it just happened to hit a number that had already been issued !

    But, hey, we know it must have been that way, otherwise we would have to admit there is a problem

    Where is the 9 relative to the 0 on a typewriter keyboard?

  150. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 19, 2013 at 2:13 am #

    Rickey: Nonsense. There is no such thing as a job where you do not expect to have withholding taxes. The only way an employee can avoid withholding is to fill out a W-4 and claim enough exemptions to zero out your withholding – but you have to put a valid SSN on the W-4. Even part-time workers at McDonald’s have to fill out a W-4 when hired.

    http://www.ehow.com/facts_5824814_gets-999-social-security-numbers_.html

    Some universities have assigned nine-digit “temporary” Social Security numbers to post-graduate foreign nationals beginning with 999. The temporary number is designed to be replaced once the graduate student has received a valid SSN.

    Considerations
    A number beginning in 999 may be an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN), a tax processing number issued by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). This number is also nine digits, and it always begins with the number nine.

  151. avatar
    e.vattel April 19, 2013 at 2:46 am #

    The citizens are the members of the civil society: bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.

    From the same Vattel posted in the “savages chapter” in the 1797 edition.

  152. avatar
    e.vattel April 19, 2013 at 2:48 am #

    Y’all said it was Vattel’s words in the 1797 edition.

  153. avatar
    gorefan April 19, 2013 at 2:51 am #

    e.vattel: From the same Vattel posted in the “savages chapter” in the 1797 edition.

    “The children of aliens born in this state are considered as natural born subjects and have the same rights with the rest of the citizens.”

    From Zephaniah Swift’s “A system of the Laws of the State of Connecticut: in Six Books”, 1795.

  154. avatar
    gorefan April 19, 2013 at 2:53 am #

    e.vattel: Y’all said it was Vattel’s words in the 1797 edition.

    So what.

  155. avatar
    Lupin April 19, 2013 at 3:17 am #

    I think I have mentioned in the past here an excellent book on Vattel’s proper role & influence on modern international law:

    http://www.brill.com/vattels-international-law-xxist-century-perspective-le-droit-international-de-vattel-vu-du-xxie-siec

    It is in both French anfd English, and highly recommended. The price is a bit stiff but if you’re an attorney you might legitinately get your fitm to pay for it as part of any ongoing education program or write it off as a business expense.

    As someone who deals with a fair amount of French-language 18th and 19th century texts (presuming the same holds true in other languages), one quickly learns to recognize the innate prejuduces of these less-enlightened times. I belong to the school of thought which believes it is unfair to judge these people by modern criteria.

    Vattel’s writings remain of great interest to historians and scholars interested in the slow development of international law over three centuries, but I’d hazard the guess that no jurist would consider them applicable today.

  156. avatar
    misha marinsky April 19, 2013 at 3:30 am #

    e.vattel: Y’all said it was Vattel’s words

    Do you mean Mattel?

  157. avatar
    Rickey April 19, 2013 at 3:46 am #

    saynomorejoe:

    You use 999-99-9999 when you apply for a job in the 1980s where you do not expect to have withholding paid or pay taxes!Or just to put it in place to get a part-time job where the employer requires it.

    I forgot to mention that even if an employee is paying no Federal income tax, he or she still has to pay FICA tax, and a valid SSN is required to pay FICA tax.

    Obama could not have used the SSN 999-99-9999 while he was attending Occidental or at any other time.

  158. avatar
    Keith April 19, 2013 at 4:45 am #

    saynomorejoe: chance if 5 that the typo would result in the exact way it did, but that is the only explanation needed.

    1 chance in a bazillion that someone would have the correct lottery numbers. But it happens all the time.

    There are 2,598,960 possible 5 card poker hands. But everybody who plays gets 1of those hands, so the odds of getting that specific hand is 1 in 2,598,960. It is much less likely for you to get the exact 5 cards you have than 1 in 5 – and yet those are the cards you have – how could that happen?

    1 chance in 5 is a heck of a lot better than the 1 chance in a billion (lets be a bit conservative here) that 10 or 15 sets of Hawai’ian political appointee officials over 60 years have been completely faithful in the ‘cover up’.

  159. avatar
    The Magic M April 19, 2013 at 5:47 am #

    saynomorejoe: But, of course, it was just happenstance that the typo was in the first number, as it could not have happened with the other four numbers., Right! […]

    And it just happened to hit a number that had already been issued !

    1. Keith already pointed out that an ex post analysis of a random event does not make it any more or less probable. It happened, therefore it happened. You cannot say “it was so improbable to happen, so it cannot have happened”.
    By any other logic, everyone playing any card game is cheating because it’s so improbable anyone ever got the hand he got.
    Or are you saying nobody ever was struck by lightning because that’s so improbable, therefore all those who claim they were must be lying?

    2. The number has not been issued before. Where do you get this stuff?

  160. avatar
    Majority Will April 19, 2013 at 6:33 am #

    The Magic M: 2. The number has not been issued before. Where do you get this stuff?

    You’ve already answered your own question:

    “Some people have been desperate to “get even” ever since Watergate.
    Some people are simply old racists (just like my father is still an old anti-Semite) who can’t get over the fact someone who was a second class citizen in their day is now the Commander in Chief.
    Some people have lost their minds.
    Some people simply don’t care what they say as long as it advances their political agenda.”

    The goal of a jackass . . .

  161. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater April 19, 2013 at 8:39 am #

    saynomorejoe: With due respect, Dr. Conspiracy, is everything you say an absolute fact, or just, sometimes, you opinion as to the facts of the matter.

    you are just like me, in that you will interpret the information in a way that best suits your beliefs.

    He’s nothing like you trolljack. You get your answer and you then play word games to avoid accepting the answer.

  162. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater April 19, 2013 at 8:40 am #

    e.vattel:
    Let’s be clear..is this site claiming the “savages” paragraph posted above is from Vattel. It’s all I’m asking.

    Either it is or it isn’t.

    They’ve answered your question already Gary.

  163. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater April 19, 2013 at 8:45 am #

    e.vattel:
    The citizens are the members of the civil society: bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.

    From the same Vattel posted in the “savages chapter” in the 1797 edition.

    1797, the constitution was already in place before that English translation. These aren’t vattel’s words per say since Vattel didn’t use the equivalent of natural born in french. The translator took the liberty of adding that.

  164. avatar
    Northland10 April 19, 2013 at 8:53 am #

    gorefan: So what.

    e. Vattel here believes only Anglo-Saxons can be president. All you Britons, Normans, Picts, Celts, Franks, Lombards and Visigoths are out of luck.

  165. avatar
    nbc April 19, 2013 at 8:57 am #

    And yet there were birth announcements in the newspapers…

    Logic not mere possibility. The birthers have been quite good at finding possible but extremely unlikely and totally unsupported scenarios but the facts so far point at a simple straightforward story.

    Maybe for some a bit hard to accept…

    saynomorejoe: Just what would make you assume that the fraud, if it happened, happened 60 years ago!

    It is a simple matter to insert things into computer files, and into paper files, when someone in the government wants it done!

    Take the issuance of fake bc for witness protections,they are created , filed in the proper sequence, and then the original is sealed from view, and the fake put in its place with the same number.

    Everything disappears into the files

  166. avatar
    nbc April 19, 2013 at 9:00 am #

    saynomorejoe: And it just happened to hit a number that had already been issued !

    No there is no evidence that the number had already been issued.

    Obama has consistently used this number since he registered for selective services and there is no evidence that the number has been assigned to anyone else.

  167. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 19, 2013 at 9:08 am #

    I didn’t say that, and my quotation was not from the 1797 edition. It was from a later edition.

    e.vattel: Y’all said it was Vattel’s words in the 1797 edition.

  168. avatar
    gorefan April 19, 2013 at 9:21 am #

    saynomorejoe: Some universities have assigned nine-digit “temporary” Social Security numbers to post-graduate foreign nationals beginning with 999.

    President Obama was not in post-graduate school in 2005 when the 999 first appeared in the databases associated with his name.

  169. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 19, 2013 at 9:24 am #

    That’s nonsense. The SSA system would always assign a new number no matter what the typo, in this case a new number from the Connecticut series.

    If you think that Obama’s SSN was already issued, who was it issued to? Nobody.

    saynomorejoe: I chance if 5 that the typo would result in the exact way it did, but that is the only explanation needed.

    And it just happened to hit a number that had already been issued !

  170. avatar
    The Magic M April 19, 2013 at 9:54 am #

    saynomorejoe: It is a simple matter to insert things into computer files, and into paper files, when someone in the government wants it done!

    So you’re back to “no records can be trusted, ever”. And since “witnesses” (e.g. about place of birth) can be lying, how exactly was GWB “vetted” and why was that to your satisfaction? Simply because nobody bothered to consider “what if…” until the black guy became President doesn’t mean you can just gloss over it. For what it’s worth, it’s just as likely (actually much more likely) that GWB was actually born in Canada and adopted by Bush sr. as it is that Obama’s mother traveled to Kenya highly pregnant and got her child in a hospital hundreds of miles away from both the airport and her husband’s family’s home town*.
    By your suggestion and the typical birther goalpost moving, GWB must’ve shown hospital records and doctor’s records and affidavits from neighbours and whatnot to Congress to satisfy the level of proof you seem to require (because obviously neither his BC nor his parents can be trusted, right?). Did he? How can you be sure he did?

    No birther can answer that, so I don’t expect you’ll even try.

    ____
    (* I still don’t get the Mombasa fixation, maybe just the old “never change a previous claim because that might make people think I was wrong somewhere else, too”.)

  171. avatar
    Paper April 19, 2013 at 10:13 am #

    I believe, and why not, that the whole Kenyan birth conspiracy angle is a false flag operation to hide the truth behind the idiot/ridiculous birther concerns. Everybody is so involved ridiculing the ridiculous, as it should be ridiculed, that no one is paying attention to the simple truth, that the Obamas went on a “three hour cruise” that went horribly wrong, and that as a result the President was born on an uncharted island in international waters.

    It was all covered up, though there was a television show made about it. The details changed, but people in the know still recognize the connection. A famous tv show.

    To avoid lawsuits, the cruises had been officially sponsored state of Hawaii cruises, Hawaii agreed to accept a fake birth certificate.

    No one is going to discover that truth interacted as they are by the silly Kenyan birthers, or two citizen parents birthers.

    As always, here is the proof:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

    The Magic M: … as it is that Obama’s mother traveled to Kenya highly pregnant and got her child in a hospital hundreds of miles away from both the airport and her husband’s family’s home town*.

  172. avatar
    Rickey April 19, 2013 at 12:45 pm #

    saynomorejoe:

    Some universities have assigned nine-digit “temporary” Social Security numbers to post-graduate foreign nationals beginning with 999. The temporary number is designed to be replaced once the graduate student has received a valid SSN.

    Considerations
    A number beginning in 999 may be an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN), a tax processing number issued by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). This number is also nine digits, and it always begins with the number nine.

    An ITIN is not a Social Security Number, and we have been talking about Social Security Numbers.

    Regardless, colleges and universities do not “assign” ITINs to students who need them. The schools are merely “acceptance agents” who assist in processing the paperwork. The paperwork is then forwarded to the IRS and the IRS assigns the ITIN.

    Besides, an ITIN is not going to appear on someone’s credit report because an ITIN cannot be used to obtain credit. Its only purpose is that it allows someone who does not have a SSN to file an income tax return. I have worked with thousands of credit reports in my work and I have never seen an ITIN on one.

  173. avatar
    Sef April 19, 2013 at 1:18 pm #

    gorefan: Where is the 9 relative to the 0 on a typewriter keyboard?

    Not to infer that the SSA had one of these in the late 1970s, but I recall learning to type on an old typewriter on which it was necessary to use a capital letter O for a number zero as there was no zero key. This was waaay before ASCII was ever a dream and the look on the paper was all that mattered.

  174. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 19, 2013 at 1:28 pm #

    saynomorejoe:Some universities have assigned nine-digit “temporary” Social Security numbers to post-graduate foreign nationals beginning with 999. The temporary number is designed to be replaced once the graduate student has received a valid SSN.

    Actually, these colleges do assign student ID numbers for use within their own system, however, they would not, and could not, be used to get credit. So, no clue why this number would show up on a credit report.

    A number beginning in 999 may be an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN), a tax processing number issued by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). This number is also nine digits, and it always begins with the number nine.

    Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers came out of a 1996 program to allow people who were not eligible for Social Security to file taxes. They weren’t created back then, and they are only given to people who do not have SSNs. At the time, we know, that Obama was using an SSN, so why would he apply for an ITIN? Furthermore, these were not created until 10+ years after he went to Occidential College.

    Another swing and a miss.

    Why can’t you just admit that the database data that you’re relying upon might be erronious?

  175. avatar
    Sef April 19, 2013 at 2:18 pm #

    Sef: Not to infer that the SSA had one of these in the late 1970s, but I recall learning to type on an old typewriter on which it was necessary to use a capital letter O for a number zero as there was no zero key. This was waaay before ASCII was ever a dream and the look on the paper was all that mattered.

    Sorry, my bad. Imply, not infer.

  176. avatar
    gorefan April 19, 2013 at 2:35 pm #

    Sef: Sorry, my bad. Imply, not infer.

    That’s what I inferred from the context.

  177. avatar
    Paper April 19, 2013 at 3:02 pm #

    Your “ifs” continue to be irrelevant. If you had forged a carton of one hundred dollar bills, you would have committed forgery. If you stole merchandise from Walmart, you’d be a shoplifter. If you were interested in truth, you wouldn’t be talking about things the way you do.

    See how none of those ifs apply to you? Notice how irrelevant ifs are?

    saynomorejoe:
    If…if….if…if…if…

  178. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 19, 2013 at 4:23 pm #

    dunstvangeet: Hawaii Administrative Rules, Chapter 111, Public Health Regulations, Chapter 8B. Read it.http://gen.doh.hawaii.gov/sites/har/AdmRules1/8%208A%20B%20VR%20Admin%20Rules.pdfAnd then we have this Gem…

    And I continued to be amazed at the one sided interpretation of statements.

    Not open to the public , does not mean it is not open to qualified individuals!

    ” 338-18 Disclosure of records. (a) To protect the integrity of vital statistics records, to ensure their proper use, and to ensure the efficient and proper administration of the vital statistics system, it shall be unlawful for any person to permit inspection of, or to disclose information contained in vital statistics records, or to copy or issue a copy of all or part of any such record, except as authorized by this part or by rules adopted by the department of health.

    (b) The department shall not permit inspection of public health statistics records, or issue a certified copy of any such record or part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant has a direct and tangible interest in the record. The following persons shall be considered to have a direct and tangible interest in a public health statistics record:

    (1) The registrant;

    (2) The spouse of the registrant;

    (3) A parent of the registrant;

    (4) A descendant of the registrant;

    (5) A person having a common ancestor with the registrant;

    (6) A legal guardian of the registrant;

    (7) A person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;

    (8) A personal representative of the registrant’s estate;

    (9) A person whose right to inspect or obtain a certified copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction;

    (10) Adoptive parents who have filed a petition for adoption and who need to determine the death of one or more of the prospective adopted child’s natural or legal parents;

    (11) A person who needs to determine the marital status of a former spouse in order to determine the payment of alimony;

    (12) A person who needs to determine the death of a nonrelated co-owner of property purchased under a joint tenancy agreement; and

    (13) A person who needs a death certificate for the determination of payments under a credit insurance policy.

    (c) The department may permit the use [of] the data contained in public health statistical records for research purposes only, but no identifying use thereof shall be made.

    (d) Index data consisting of name and sex of the registrant, type of vital event, and such other data as the director may authorize shall be made available to the public.

    (e) The department may permit persons working on genealogy projects access to microfilm or other copies of vital records of events that occurred more than seventy-five years prior to the current year.

    (f) Subject to this section, the department may direct its local agents to make a return upon filing of birth, death, and fetal death certificates with them, of certain data shown to federal, state, territorial, county, or municipal agencies. Payment by these agencies for these services may be made as the department shall direct.

    (g) The department shall not issue a verification in lieu of a certified copy of any such record, or any part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant requesting a verification is:

    (1) A person who has a direct and tangible interest in the record but requests a verification in lieu of a certified copy;

    (2) A governmental agency that, for a legitimate government purpose, maintains and needs to update official lists of persons in the ordinary course of the agency’s activities. Notwithstanding other provisions of this section, upon request from a governmental agency of the State of Hawaii or its political subdivisions, the department may further disclose to that governmental agency the date of the vital event that has been verified;

    (3) A governmental agency, or private, social, or educational agency or organization that seeks confirmation of a certified copy of any such record submitted in support of or information provided about a vital event relating to any such record and contained in an official application made in the ordinary course of the agency’s or organization’s activities by an individual seeking employment with, entrance to, or the services or products of the agency or organization;

    (4) A private or government attorney who seeks to confirm information about a vital event relating to any such record that was acquired during the course of or for purposes of legal proceedings; or

    (5) An individual employed, endorsed, or sponsored by a governmental agency, or private, social, or educational agency or organization who seeks to confirm information about a vital event relating to preparation of reports or publications by the agency or organization for research or educational purposes. [L 1949, c 327, 22; RL 1955, 57-21; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, 19; am L 1967, c 30, 2; HRS 338-18; am L 1977, c 118, 1; am L 1991, c 190, 1; am L 1997, c 305, 5; am L 2001, c 246, 2; am L 2012, c 86, 2]

    NOW WILL YOU ADMIT YOU MIGHT, JUST POSSIBLY, BE WRONG!
    Rulemaking, see chapter 91.

  179. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 19, 2013 at 4:28 pm #

    dunstvangeet: Actually, these colleges do assign student ID numbers for use within their own system, however, they would not, and could not, be used to get credit. So, no clue why this number would show up on a credit report.Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers came out of a 1996 program to allow people who were not eligible for Social Security to file taxes. They weren’t created back then, and they are only given to people who do not have SSNs. At the time, we know, that Obama was using an SSN, so why would he apply for an ITIN? Furthermore, these were not created until 10+ years after he went to Occidential College.Another swing and a miss.Why can’t you just admit that the database data that you’re relying upon might be erronious?

    Have you heard of college book stores, student loans, board and room, books, tuition , etc. and you don’t think that those would be on credit reports?

    I was pointing out that 999 was used, and never said that ITIN were used.

    So, there is a possiblity, slight, large, tiny, or something, that a 999 was used by someone in LA who had the name BHO, is there not?

  180. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 19, 2013 at 4:41 pm #

    And the Administrative Rules are who actually go down and and have access to the original records which are still on file. The Administrative Rules are what flush out and actually regulate the various departments.

    The Administrative Rules are what actually regulate access to that room. And Department of Health Employees are the only ones who have access to it, unless under very controlled circumstances (where the person agrees not to release any information found there.)

    Again, the laws (which include the Hawaii Administrative Rules) are what regulate it…

  181. avatar
    richCares April 19, 2013 at 4:43 pm #

    “So, there is a possiblity, slight, large, tiny, or something, that a 999 was used by someone in LA who had the name BHO, is there not?”
    Well, his student loan required a valid SSN, so that eliminates 999

  182. avatar
    donna April 19, 2013 at 4:48 pm #

    and before obama sat for the bar exam he was fingerprinted and had to pass a background check (at least that’s the rule in most states i know of)

  183. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 19, 2013 at 4:50 pm #

    Sef: Not to infer that the SSA had one of these in the late 1970s, but I recall learning to type on an old typewriter on which it was necessary to use a capital letter O for a number zero as there was no zero key. This was waaay before ASCII was ever a dream and the look on the paper was all that mattered.

    Darn, you must be as old as I am, And we used L for 1.

    I will await someone explaning that!

    Oh, wait, the SSN was filed in 1977 according to rules and they might have had computers in the SSS offices by that date, as I had them in the early 70’s.

  184. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 19, 2013 at 4:55 pm #

    donna: and before obama sat for the bar exam he was fingerprinted and had to pass a background check (at least that’s the rule in most states i know of)

    Absolutely, perhaps, but , at that time, there was no questioning about his citizenship as it was not a concern as he was not running for any political office, was he?

    And , even if he admitted that he was born in Kenya it would not affect his background check would it?

    I am not saying he was born in Kenya, but saying if he had said it , it would make no difference on the application!

  185. avatar
    donna April 19, 2013 at 5:25 pm #

    IF he had numerous SSNs assigned to him (or the wrong one) and IF he had not filed for the selective service, etc that would have come up in a background test

  186. avatar
    Jim April 19, 2013 at 5:30 pm #

    saynomorejoe: Absolutely, perhaps,but , at that time, there was no questioning about his citizenship as it was not a concern as he was not running for any political office, was he?

    And , even if he admitted that he was born in Kenya it would not affect his background check would it?

    I am not saying he was born in Kenya, but saying if he had said it , it would make no difference on the application!

    Why would he admit he was born in Kenya? First off he wasn’t, second off if he was so keen on becoming President, as you folks seem to think he was coming out of the chute, why would he provide a reason to have his test rejected? That makes no sense at all!!!

  187. avatar
    e.vattel April 19, 2013 at 6:03 pm #

    from the link referencing Vattel:

    212. Citizens and natives.

    The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.

    These are Vattel’s words according to Dr. Conspiracy.

  188. avatar
    Rickey April 19, 2013 at 6:04 pm #

    saynomorejoe:

    So, there is a possiblity, slight, large, tiny, or something, that a 999 was used by someone in LA who had the name BHO, is there not?

    No, it is not possible that anyone ever used a SSN that begins with 999. Somebody at some point may have tried to use a fake SSN that begins with 999, but it would have been rejected the first time it was used to obtain credit or employment.

  189. avatar
    Rickey April 19, 2013 at 6:10 pm #

    e.vattel:
    from the link referencing Vattel:

    212. Citizens and natives.

    The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.

    These are Vattel’s words according to Dr. Conspiracy.

    No, those are Vattel’s words as mangled by an interpreter.

    Just because an interpreter makes an error in one portion of a translation it does not necessarily follow that every other portion of the translation is in error.

    As several people who are fluent in French have pointed out, Vattel never used the phrase “natural-born citizen,” and in the passage quoted by you he did not use the word “parents.” Lupin not only is fluent in French, he is an attorney who has actually studied Vattel, and he knows more about Vattel than you will ever be able to squeeze into your tiny brain.

  190. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater April 19, 2013 at 6:37 pm #

    saynomorejoe: Darn, you must be as old as I am, Andwe used L for 1.

    I will await someone explaning that!

    Oh, wait, the SSN was filed in 1977 according to rules and they might have hadcomputers in the SSS offices by that date, as I had them in the early 70′s.

    Why should anyone take you seriously Jack? You’ve already admitted on Amazon that you’re a criminal who stole someone else’s social and tried using it as your own.

  191. avatar
    Northland10 April 19, 2013 at 6:37 pm #

    e.vattel:
    from the link referencing Vattel:

    212. Citizens and natives.

    The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.

    These are Vattel’s words according to Dr. Conspiracy.

    No, these are Vattel’s words.

    . 212. Les Citoyens sont les membres de la Société Civile: Liés cette Société par certains devoirs, & sourmis son Autorité, il participent avec égalité ses avantages. Les Naturels, ou Indigènes sont ceux qui sont nés dans le pays, de Parens Citoyens. La Société ne pouvant se soutenir & se perpétuer que par les enfans des Citoyens; ces enfans y suivent naturellement la conditionn de leurs Pères, & entrent dans tous leurs droits. La Société est censée le vouloir ainsi; par une suite de ce qu’elle doit sa propre conservation ; & l’on présume de droit que chaque Citoyen, en entrant dans la Société, réserve ses enfans le droit d’en être membres La Patrie des Pères est donc celle des enfans ; & ceux-ci deviennent de véritables Citoyens, par leur simple consentement tacite. Nous verrons bien-t’t, si parvenus l’âge de raison, ils peuvent renoncer leur droit, & ce qu’ils doivent la Société dans laquelle ils sont nés. Je dis que pour être d’un pays, il faut être né d’un père Citoyen, car si vous y êtes né d’un Etranger, ce pays sera seulement le lieu de votre naissance, sans être votre Patrie.

  192. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG April 19, 2013 at 7:02 pm #

    The way birthers cling to mistranslated Vattel, reminds me of how RWNJs cling to mistranslations in the Bible as linchpin explanations for why its okay for them to be bigots.

  193. avatar
    Paper April 19, 2013 at 8:44 pm #

    I watch the news. I listen to the news. I read the news. Are you saying you are a bomber? Because that is what is in the news. I know you would admit that that is possible. Of course, it isn’t very likely at all. But feel free to prove me wrong and turn yourself in to the FBI. Once you do that, I promise to rethink how likely it is that Barack Obama’s birth certificate is faked. I can’t promise I’ll change my mind without actual evidence, but turn yourself in, and I *will* rethink it. Deal?

    saynomorejoe:
    OK back to the facts.

    Why is it possible that places like Enron, JP Morgan, and other big companies can create fake documents , such as Madoff did, and the Government can not create a fake birth certificate when the HDOH allows them to do just that?

    And that it is and was such a big problem that they OIG of HHS investigated it three times and each time found that it wasa big problem for the government

    You actually don’t believe that the government and businesses can create fake documents, get them in files, and make them believable?

    Do you watch the news?

  194. avatar
    Keith April 19, 2013 at 8:45 pm #

    saynomorejoe: Just what would make you assume that the fraud, if it happened, happened 60 years ago!

    The fact that the record is also in an independent, unimpeachable source: the newspaper files.

  195. avatar
    Keith April 19, 2013 at 8:54 pm #

    The Magic M: 2. The number has not been issued before. Where do you get this stuff?

    I think he was talking about the Zip code that resulted.

  196. avatar
    Keith April 19, 2013 at 9:08 pm #

    Paper: Obamas went on a “three hour cruise” that went horribly wrong, and that as a result the President was born on an uncharted island in international waters.

    I always wanted to marry Mary Ann myself.

  197. avatar
    Keith April 19, 2013 at 9:11 pm #

    Paper: Your “ifs” continue to be irrelevant. If you had forged a carton of one hundred dollar bills, you would have committed forgery. If you stole merchandise from Walmart, you’d be a shoplifter. If you were interested in truth, you wouldn’t be talking about things the way you do.

    See how none of those ifs apply to you?

    Assumes testimony not in evidence.

  198. avatar
    Keith April 19, 2013 at 9:20 pm #

    e.vattel: 212. Citizens and natives.

    And the concluding sentence in 214: (from the 1758 translation)

    … Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalizes the children of a foreigner,

  199. avatar
    misha marinsky April 19, 2013 at 9:39 pm #

    saynomorejoe: I am not saying he was born in Kenya

    Yes you are.

  200. avatar
    misha marinsky April 19, 2013 at 9:44 pm #

    The Magic M: it’s just as likely (actually much more likely) that GWB was actually born in Canada

    GWB was born in Saudi Arabia. Romney was born in Canada, as was Palin.

  201. avatar
    misha marinsky April 19, 2013 at 9:48 pm #

    Northland10: Visigoths are out of luck

    What about the Goths?

  202. avatar
    Whatever4 April 19, 2013 at 10:08 pm #

    misha marinsky: What about the Goths?

    Out of mascara.

  203. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 19, 2013 at 10:28 pm #

    saynomorejoe: you don’t know a darn thing about me birth certificate, just like you don’t know a darn thing about Obama’s bc, because you have never seen it.

    You’re right, I don’t. I do know that public employees are corrupt, therefore we can’t accept anything that they say. Therefore, we cannot accept your birth certificate as proof of your citizenship.

    I served in the USN in 1940, when you had to be a citizen to serve in the Navy!

    And Barack Obama got student aide that was only available to Citizens. By your logic this proves that Barack Obama was a citizen. But furthermore,

    But that means nothing to non-believers as you can not prove anything.

    We don’t have to prove anything. We’re not making the claims that go against the official records from the state. The Birth Certificate is Prima Facie evidence of his birth. He’s met his burden of proof, you now have to prove that the documentation is false.

    Just like Obama I can not prove anything, the only people that can are the judicial branch employees and they have to take the word of the investigators.

    If this ever got into a court of law, the judge would take a look at the COLB and declare Obama eligible. However, it will never get that far, because the Judiciary is constitutionally barred from hearing theoretical cases.

  204. avatar
    gorefan April 19, 2013 at 10:37 pm #

    saynomorejoe: Have you heard of college book stores, student loans, board and room, books, tuition , etc. and you don’t think that those would be on credit reports?

    I was pointing out that 999 was used, and never said that ITIN were used.

    So, there is a possiblity, slight, large, tiny, or something, that a 999Nn was used by someone in LA who had the name BHO, is there not?

    No, there is no possibility. You don’t understand how the credit databases work. The first time the 999 SSN appeared in the databases was in 2005. He was not in LA in 2005.

  205. avatar
    Paper April 20, 2013 at 12:37 am #

    Well, my next post goes on to suggest he prove me wrong by turning himself in for his alleged crimes.

    Keith: Assumes testimony not in evidence.

  206. avatar
    Paper April 20, 2013 at 12:54 am #

    You do remember that the President of the United States is Barack Obama and not Bustamante?

    saynomorejoe: You do remember that the Bustamante Xlll was issued and when subject to inspection by the gov ernment determined to be a fraudulent filing of documents.

  207. avatar
    SluggoJD April 20, 2013 at 2:33 am #

    saynomorejoe:
    An example of debunking,

    Obama SSN from connecticut, shows that it was issued because the typist missed typed the number by using 0 instead of 9, which shows that the SSN was ok as it was just a typographical error.

    But, of course, it was just happenstance that the typo was in the first number, as it could not have happened with the other four numbers.,Right!
    I chance if 5 that the typo would result in the exact way it did, but that is the only explanation needed.

    And it just happened to hit a number that had already been issued !

    But, hey, we know it must have been that way, otherwise we would have to admit there is a problem

    You know, when you’re driving along in your car and you pick your nose, and you know you shouldn’t do it cause it’s nasty but you do it anyways, you know how you are at that time, right? Disgusting, nasty, but you just can’t help yourself.

    Anyways, next time, why don’t you put them all in your mouth and eat them. You already do nasty stuff, so what’s wrong with more nasty stuff?

    Meanwhile, while you’re busy picking your nose and eating the boogers, President Obama will be hanging around at the White House, or wherever he wants to hang out, and talking to world leaders, and flying wherever he wants to go, and eating whatever food he wants to eat, shooting a few hoops, partying with friends, and anything else he wants to do.

    You’ll be eating boogers.
    And Obama will still be the most powerful man in the world.

    But perhaps it’s not too late for you. Perhaps you can leave and never come back, and accept reality even though you can’t stand it. Work on your education, as well as your bad breath and bad diet, and maybe someday you will become more than just another stupid birther nutcase.

    Good luck!

  208. avatar
    Lupin April 20, 2013 at 4:11 am #

    e.vattel: from the link referencing Vattel:

    212. Citizens and natives.

    The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.

    These are Vattel’s words according to Dr. Conspiracy.

    You really don’t understand Vattel at all, do you?

    I’d suggest you start by reading the fair amount of materials published on this site, written by myself and others.

    This “canard” you’re quoting — to begin with — is a group plural, as in “only children whose parentS are club members may use use the pool” ie: it doesn’t mean (in French or in English) that both parents must belong to the club for their child to use the swimming pool; one membership is enough.

    Two, “parents” (or more accurately “parens”) doesn’t just mean parents but also blood relatives.

    There is more, but I won’t go into it again.

    The bottom line is, (1) IF Vattel’s treatise was seemed applicable here (which it is NOT), and (2) if you equated Vattel’s terminology with “Natural-born citizen” (which is highly debatable), then Obama would be fully eligible.

    OK?

  209. avatar
    Plantmaster April 20, 2013 at 5:28 pm #

    predicto
    So saynomorejoe was discharged from the Navy in 1946. That means he is at least in his late 80s, right?

    Perhaps birtherism can be explained best by the sad onrushing of senility.
    **************

    He says he was in the USN in 1940. If he was 16 when he entered (with parental signature, like my uncle), at the very least he would be as old as my mother (turning 89 next month).

  210. avatar
    Daniel April 20, 2013 at 8:42 pm #

    Assuming you can trust anything saytoomuchjoe says on any subject. I suspect he makes up the details of his life with as much abandon as he makes up laws and history.

  211. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 20, 2013 at 10:59 pm #

    Rickey: No, it is not possible that anyone ever used a SSN that begins with 999. Somebody at some point may have tried to use a fake SSN that begins with 999, but it would have been rejected the first time it was used to obtain credit or employment.

    With due respect, might I point out that in 1961, and in 1980, and ever since, false id’s , social security numbers, etc, have been rampant in the USA.

    If you walk into a job, to pick up the trash on the job site, you make up a name and a social security number, take your $50 cash payment, and leave the job site.

    No withholding, no insurance, no FICA, just cash on the line! But the employer has a name and a social security number on file.

    The other way to do it, is to hire contract workers, where you pay the for the work done and the worker is responsible for all of the issues with the Government!

    Farm laborers are a good example of that type of work

    But, hey, believe as you wish as nothing will change your mind!

    And the typewriter did not have a 0 or a 1 in those years.,

  212. avatar
    Paper April 20, 2013 at 11:25 pm #

    Which is all irrelevant.

    Also, there is a difference between lying, and having your lie go the distance. The lies you mention here are fly-by-night lies that are not meant to last or survive any real review.

    We are not discussing here such paper-thin lies. They have nothing to do with the presidency.

    Returning to Rickey’s point, you can lie but 999 is not a valid social security number.

    As for your point about universities, here is what DePaul says on their website for example:

    “Please note that the 9 digit number you may have been assigned by DePaul University at the time of admission (usually beginning with ‘999’ – example: 999-98-3201) is not a social security number.”

    saynomorejoe: With due respect, might I point out that in 1961, and in 1980, and ever since, false id’s , social security numbers, etc, have been rampant in the USA.

    Etc. etc….

  213. avatar
    Rickey April 20, 2013 at 11:50 pm #

    saynomorejoe: With due respect, might I point out that in 1961, and in 1980, and ever since, false id’s , social security numbers, etc, have been rampant in the USA.

    If you walk into a job, to pick up the trash on the job site, you make up a name and a social security number, take your $50 cash payment, and leave the job site.

    No withholding, no insurance, no FICA, just cash on the line! But the employer has a name and a social security number on file.

    The other way to do it, is to hire contract workers, where you pay the for the work done and the worker is responsible for all of the issues with the Government!

    Farm laborers are a good example of that type of work

    Apples and oranges, examples which have absolutely no relevance to Obama’s situation.

    You are talking about people who use a fake SSN for a period of time which is too short for the IRS or the SSN to take notice. By the time the discrepancy is noted the employee or independent contractor is long gone.

    Obama used the same SSN from the time that he was 15 or 16 up to and including his time as President. During that time he has filed Federal and State tax returns, he has registered to vote, he has gotten a driver’s license, he has been issued a U.S. passport, and yes, he has been elected President of the United States. If he was using a fake SSN or some else’s SSN it would have been noticed decades ago.

  214. avatar
    Lani April 21, 2013 at 12:52 am #

    saynomorejoe:

    And the typewriter did not have a 0 or a 1 in those years.,

    Just making up one lie after another.

    I earned my way through higher education as a typist in the 1970’s. Here’s one of my favorite machines during that time. http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9202898/Image_gallery_Computing_keyboards_from_classic_to_virtual

    I never could accurately touch-type the numbers and preferred the lowercase L for 1 and the uppercase O for zero. However, 1 and 0 keys were definitely available.

  215. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 21, 2013 at 2:57 am #

    Lupin: You really don’t understand Vattel at all, do you?I’d suggest you start by reading the fair amount of materials published on this site, written by myself and others.This “canard” you’re quoting — to begin with — is a group plural, as in “only children whose parentS are club members may use use the pool” ie: it doesn’t mean (in French or in English) that both parents must belong to the club for their child to use the swimming pool; one membership is enough.Two, “parents” (or more accurately “parens”) doesn’t just mean parents but also blood relatives. There is more, but I won’t go into it again.The bottom line is, (1) IF Vattel’s treatise was seemed applicable here (which it is NOT), and (2) if you equated Vattel’s terminology with “Natural-born citizen” (which is highly debatable), then Obama would be fully eligible.OK?

    So, youseem to think that children are born of uncles and aunts, and not mothers and fathers?

  216. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 21, 2013 at 3:03 am #

    Paper: Which is all irrelevant.Also, there is a difference between lying, and having your lie go the distance. The lies you mention here are fly-by-night lies that are not meant to last or survive any real review.We are not discussing here such paper-thin lies. They have nothing to do with the presidency.Returning to Rickey’s point, you can lie but 999 is not a valid social security number. As for your point about universities, here is what DePaul says on their website for example: “Please note that the 9 digit number you may have been assigned by DePaul University at the time of admission (usually beginning with ’999′ – example: 999-98-3201) is not a social security number.”

    A valid SSn , as far as the employee is concerned , is the one that gets him , or her, employed.

    It is routine for employees to use fake numbers in the past, as that is the reason that the Government went to verification of numbers by the employer.

    How do you think the chicken giants ever got so many illegal immigrants on the workforce when they did not have SSN’s, legal ones, that is?

    Or do you think that there are no fraudulent SSN’s in usage today!

  217. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 21, 2013 at 3:35 am #

    Lani: Just making up one lie after another. I earned my way through higher education as a typist in the 1970′s. Here’s one of my favorite machines during that time. http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9202898/Image_gallery_Computing_keyboards_from_classic_to_virtualI never could accurately touch-type the numbers and preferred the lowercase L for 1 and the uppercase O for zero. However, 1 and 0 keys were definitely available.

    they may have been available, but they were not universal

    And, yes, they all have different keyboards based on cost, and area of world.

  218. avatar
    Keith April 21, 2013 at 3:43 am #

    saynomorejoe: So, youseem to think that children are born of uncles and aunts, and not mothers and fathers?

    No. He is saying the the French word ‘parens‘ as used by Vattel (and I believe even the French today) means ‘relatives’, or perhaps ‘close relatives’, or perhaps ‘blood relatives’.

    But definitely not “both mother and father and no one else”.

    Lupin is a native French speaker and lawyer. He knows what he is talking about.

  219. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 21, 2013 at 3:49 am #

    dunstvangeet: You’re right, I don’t. I do know that public employees are corrupt, therefore we can’t accept anything that they say. Therefore, we cannot accept your birth certificate as proof of your citizenship.And Barack Obama got student aide that was only available to Citizens. By your logic this proves that Barack Obama was a citizen. But furthermore, We don’t have to prove anything. We’re not making the claims that go against the official records from the state. The Birth Certificate is Prima Facie evidence of his birth. He’s met his burden of proof, you now have to prove that the documentation is false.If this ever got into a court of law, the judge would take a look at the COLB and declare Obama eligible. However, it will never get that far, because the Judiciary is constitutionally barred from hearing theoretical cases.

    The judge gets to decide if it is eligble to be entered without more authentication than the certified copy, the decision on its value is based upon the evidence submitted that it might be fake.

    the jurist , or the jury, must consider any evidence that is submitted that might indicate there is a flaw in the original document that has been certified!

    http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/prima-facie-evidence/

    Prima facie evidence is that evidence which is sufficient to establish a fact or sustain a judgment unless it is rebutted or contradictory evidence is produced. The prima facie evidence rule does not shut out evidence; instead it declares that a particular conduct shall be enough as evidence until and unless the opposing party produces contradictory evidence.

  220. avatar
    Lani April 21, 2013 at 3:50 am #

    saynomorejoe: they may have been available, but they were not universal

    And, yes, they all have different keyboards based on cost, and area of world.

    Maybe you should take a look at other and older typewriters, then, if you are interested in the truth. /snark

    All this blather reminds me of Orly. You might enjoy yourself more on her site where people can make up their own “facts” unchallenged. The current post about a small plane crash might be right up your alley. Folks are shocked that US media is hiding the death! Yeah, unless you google the pilot’s name and find it widely reported, complete with local tv news coverage.

  221. avatar
    Keith April 21, 2013 at 3:53 am #

    saynomorejoe: A valid SSn , as far as the employee is concerned , is the one that gets him , or her, employed.

    That may be true of folks who have no interest in interacting with the IRS for filing income tax returns or the SSA for pension benefits.

    President Obama has filed many tax returns, all of which have been ‘vetted’ by the IRS and all of which have passed that vetting.

    This is a blog site about conspiracies involving President Obama, not escaped convicts or undocumented immigrants trying to keep out of the public eye. The issue of whether or not there are fraudulent or misappropriated SSN’s being reported to employers has nothing whatever to do with the President.

  222. avatar
    Lupin April 21, 2013 at 3:54 am #

    saynomorejoe: So, youseem to think that children are born of uncles and aunts, and not mothers and fathers?

    No I’m saying that the word “parens” used by Vattel (and even “parents” in modern French) means not just “parents” but “relatives” as we understand that term in English, and that the transfer of citizenship to a child could include grandparents on either sides or even uncles.

    There are other use of the same word (“parens”) by Vattel elsewhere in his treatise that makes this unambiguously clear. (I provided the exact reference in an earlier thread.)

    My point is simply that birthers constantly and persistently misunderstand what Vattel wrote and that, in fact, Vattel would consider Obama a natural-born citizen (conflating the different terminologies).

    There’s been a fair amount of scholarly analysis and commentaries written on Vattel in French over the years (see the link I provided elsewhere) and no one, at any time, has ever asserted that Vattel meant that you had to have both a citizen father and a citizen mother in order to be born a citizen. This is a rubbishy and entirely false interpretation created by birthers.

  223. avatar
    Lupin April 21, 2013 at 3:56 am #

    saynomorejoe: So, youseem to think that children are born of uncles and aunts, and not mothers and fathers?

    Let me add that when you write a reply like this, in answer to a perfectly simple post pointing out the rather common usage of group plural in a sentence (and indee in the entire paragraph), you come across as either illiterate or very dense.

  224. avatar
    Keith April 21, 2013 at 3:59 am #

    saynomorejoe: they may have been available, but they were not universal

    Yes they were. We are talking 1970, not 1870 for crying out loud.

    Cripes, in the 1970’s I used my sister’s typewriter from the 1950’s and it had all the numbers. Government typewriters were replaced more often than my sister’s was in my family.

    My mother even had a dirt cheap typewriter from Sears that had a fancy italic ‘script like’ font!

  225. avatar
    Keith April 21, 2013 at 4:11 am #

    Keith: saynomorejoe: they may have been available, but they were not universal

    Yes they were. We are talking 1970, not 1870 for crying out loud.

    By the way, and perhaps more to the point, in 1970 computer keypunches had all 10 digits too. See here: IBM 026 Keypunch

    Notice that although the ‘0’ and ‘9’ on the keypunch are a long way apart on the keypunch, the ‘0’ happens to be exactly where the ‘9’ key is on a typewriter (above and to the left of the ‘O’ letter key)!

    How easy for a converted clerk touch typist to make that mistake? I dunno.

  226. avatar
    Keith April 21, 2013 at 4:28 am #

    Keith: By the way, and perhaps more to the point, in 1970 computer keypunches had all 10 digits too. See here: IBM 026 Keypunch

    And finally, the IBM 3270 terminal (released in 1971) had all ten digits on the top character row just like on a typewriter. (See 3270 terminal)
    See 3270e keyboard)

    I was using one of these at the City of Tucson in 1972. So if a City government was using them (and they were all over city hall not just in the IT department where I was) , you can bet your behind that the Feds were using them first.

    (sorry this took 3 posts, I kept thinking of more stuff after submitting it. I won’t give any more examples, I’m finished).

  227. avatar
    Northland10 April 21, 2013 at 7:03 am #

    Keith:

    (sorry this took 3 posts, I kept thinking of more stuff after submitting it. I won’t give any more examples, I’m finished).

    It’s not like it will matter to Troll Joe. He will just use another false equivalency, move the goal posts or just outright lie.

  228. avatar
    Paper April 21, 2013 at 7:15 am #

    And again, that is irrelevant. Liars exist. Big deal. What’s your point?

    I will note, just to be a clear about words (as you have made a big deal yourself about what words mean), that a fake ssn is not “valid,” no matter how many times it is successfully used. It may be effective but it’s still fake. Just to be clear.

    The original point here was that a fake ssn by itself will not get past the IRS, unless it is a stolen number submitted with the matching stolen name. Saying that there are temporary ways to fool employers, who may or may not care, is irrelevant.

    saynomorejoe: A valid SSn , as far as the employee is concerned , is the one that gets him , or her, employed.

    Or do you think that there are no fraudulent SSN’s in usage today!

  229. avatar
    SluggoJD April 21, 2013 at 7:21 am #

    saynomorejoe: The judge gets to decide if it is eligble to be entered without more authentication than the certified copy,the decision on its value is based upon the evidence submitted that it might be fake.

    the jurist , or the jury, must consider any evidence that is submitted that might indicate there is a flaw in the original document that has been certified!

    http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/prima-facie-evidence/

    Prima facie evidence is that evidence which is sufficient to establish a fact or sustain a judgment unless it is rebutted or contradictory evidence is produced. The prima facie evidence rule does not shut out evidence; instead it declares that a particular conduct shall be enough as evidence until and unless the opposing party produces contradictory evidence.

    Still eating those nasty boogers huh.

    Dude, what are you good for? You lie without remorse, make stuff up, you’re a racist and a con artist, you stink, and you eat boogers. Man, if you were on life support, I’d pull the plug myself.

    Yeah, it’s President Barack Obama vs Joe, the Booger Eater. That’s your whole life. I suppose such fantasies give you something to live for.

  230. avatar
    Paper April 21, 2013 at 7:30 am #

    And again, so what? Do you think no one here understands how prima facie evidence works?

    After all, you are just basically repeating what dunstvangeet told you, that: “The Birth Certificate is Prima Facie evidence of his birth. He’s met his burden of proof, you now have to prove that the documentation is false.”

    You don’t get to say someone is wrong by quoting a definition as if the person didn’t just tell you the same thing.

    saynomorejoe (quoting a legal definition):

    Prima facie evidence is that evidence which is sufficient to establish a fact or sustain a judgment unless it is rebutted or contradictory evidence is produced. The prima facie evidence rule does not shut out evidence; instead it declares that a particular conduct shall be enough as evidence until and unless the opposing party produces contradictory evidence.

  231. avatar
    Paper April 21, 2013 at 7:37 am #

    By the way, one judge already did decide.

    See:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2013/01/on-the-merits/

    saynomorejoe: The judge gets to decide…

  232. avatar
    Paper April 21, 2013 at 7:39 am #

    Please note, saynomorejoe, it says contradictory evidence, not contradictory made-up nonsense.

  233. avatar
    nbc April 21, 2013 at 9:56 am #

    SO far no valid contradictory evidence has been provided other than the foolish suggestion that a copy of the certified copy shows compression artifacts.

    Given the contemporaneous nature of the birth announcements, the fact that the document has been signed by the attending physician, its nature as ‘prima facie’ evidence will be close to impossible to overcome.

    Wishful thinking or mere possibilities do not impress the court much…

  234. avatar
    nbc April 21, 2013 at 9:59 am #

    saynomorejoe: Or do you think that there are no fraudulent SSN’s in usage today!

    sure, but that’s not the case with President Obama’s SSN which he used as early as when he filed his selective services registration and has been consistently used on his tax returns.

    There is no credible evidence at all that links President Obama’s SSN to a fake number.

  235. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 21, 2013 at 11:42 am #

    saynomorejoe: The judge gets to decide if it is eligble to be entered without more authentication than the certified copy,the decision on its value is based upon the evidence submitted that it might be fake.

    Actually, it’s not the judge, it’s the rules of evidence. Birth Certificates are self-authenticating documents. They do not need any external evidence of authentication. The Birth Certificate would be entered in. Now, the other side can try to refute it, but they would actually have to have evidence, which they have none, and you have none. And you’d have to have specific evidence related to this paticular birth certificate. You can’t just go, “You know, I’ve heard that public employees in Maine entered a fraudulent birth certificate in once, so therefore we must assume that this one was entered in fraudenlently.

    the jurist , or the jury, must consider any evidence that is submitted that might indicate there is a flaw in the original document that has been certified!

    Again, only admissible evidence. I could get the Birthers evidence kicked as valid evidence, and I’m not a lawyer. Request a Daubert Hearing to decertify every one of the birthers as experts then object to everything that they say as opinion, and based upon hearsay. Basically what Judge Malahi did in the Georgia Case. That would leave the birth certiificate and the birth certificate only. So, it would go our way.

    Prima facie evidence is that evidence which is sufficient to establish a fact or sustain a judgment unless it is rebutted or contradictory evidence is produced. The prima facie evidence rule does not shut out evidence; instead it declares that a particular conduct shall be enough as evidence until and unless the opposing party produces contradictory evidence.

    Yes, like I said, Obama has met his burden of proof just by the birth certificate. Now, it’s upto you to produce specific evidence that the birth certificate is forged. So far, all I’ve heard from you is basically an argument that we can’t trust any birth certificate, because public employees are corrupt, and may have placed it in fraudulently.

    And actually, what you’d have to do is provide evidence that Barack Obama was born somewhere else. So far, you have yet to do that. All you’ve done is make vague suggestions that we can’t trust any birth certificate because it may have been fraudulent

  236. avatar
    nbc April 21, 2013 at 2:42 pm #

    dunstvangeet: Actually, it’s not the judge, it’s the rules of evidence. Birth Certificates are self-authenticating documents. They do not need any external evidence of authentication. The Birth Certificate would be entered in. Now, the other side can try to refute it, but they would actually have to have evidence, which they have none, and you have none.

    Exactly… The document is self authenticating and will as such be admissible in court as evidence, assuming it would ever get past the issue of standing etc etc

  237. avatar
    Rickey April 21, 2013 at 2:58 pm #

    saynomorejoe:

    And the typewriter did not have a 0 or a 1 in those years.,

    You’re making up stuff again, I see.

    I learned to touch type in high school in 1966. From 1967 to the end of 1970 I was in communications in the U.S. Navy. While in the Navy I typed nearly every day, on both manual typewriters and teletype machines. I have never in my life typed on a typewriter which did not have keys for 0 and 1.

    In 1968 I bought a Smith-Corona electric typewriter at the Navy Exchange in Subic Bay. It had keys for 0 and 1.

    The only times I ever used a lower case L for 1 was when the 1 key wasn’t striking properly.

    Obama’s SSN was issued in 1976 or 1977. The only typewriters in use then which did not have the numbers 0 and 1 were antiques.

  238. avatar
    saynomorejoe April 22, 2013 at 1:36 am #

    Suppostion is not fact, and , I will agree to that!

    But, supposition on the postive side and on the negative side is still just supposition!

    The original bc has not been disclosed, in the situation being discussed, so without a verification of the original document , and not a verification of a certified copy of the document, is still , in fact, unknown information to the posters on this board.

    Dispute this all you wish!

    HDOH has never verified the original document, they have verified that the information that was requested to be verified is , in fact , the information on the recorded document!

    And that is all they are able to do, as they refuse to disclose to the public a photocopy of the original document, before it has been processed through computers.

    It is very easy to do! You go to the bound volume, open to the page, take a hi-resolution film picture, develop the negative, print the positive, and make copies for distribution.

    then place the certification on the print copy of the negative and everything is clear and confirmed.

    A Polaroid might be sufficient!

    But, that won’t happen, will it?

  239. avatar
    Keith April 22, 2013 at 2:09 am #

    saynomorejoe: It is very easy to do! You go to the bound volume, open to the page, take a hi-resolution film picture, develop the negative, print the positive, and make copies for distribution.

    then place the certification on the print copy of the negative and everything is clear and confirmed.

    Its been done at the President’s request. By a the State of Hawai’i used a photocopier, not a camera, but Savanna Guthrie used a camera, a digital camera, but a photograph none-the-less. Of course her digital camera resulted in a pixelated image encoded in a computer file.

    A Polaroid might be sufficient!

    But, that won’t happen, will it?

    Of course not.

    First and foremost, because to do that on their own initiative as you would have them do is against the law. both State and Federal law.

    Second, because Paloroid cameras are now expensive antiques, Polaroid company is out of business. I believe there may be one small factory in Czechoslovkia making filmpacks for the tiny artist market, but Polaroid film is basically unobtanium.

    Third, because it is 100% pointless. As you admit, Hawai’i has already verified 100% of the information on the birth certificate. 100%. The information is the only thing that is important about the document – it is the reason for the document’s existence.

    Get that through your head – the document exists to carry the information in a secure way. Period. The information has been verified every way possible – there is nothing more to demonstrate. End of story.

  240. avatar
    SluggoJD April 22, 2013 at 2:11 am #

    saynomorejoe:
    Suppostion is not fact, and , I will agree to that!

    But, supposition on the postive side and on the negative side is still just supposition!

    The original bc has not been disclosed, in the situation being discussed, so without a verification of the original document , and not a verification of a certified copy of the document, is still , in fact, unknown information to the posters on this board.

    Dispute this all you wish!

    HDOH has never verified the original document, they have verified that the information that was requested to be verified is , in fact , the information on the recorded document!

    And that is all they are able to do, as they refuse to disclose to the public a photocopy of the original document, before it has been processed through computers.

    It is very easy to do!You go to the bound volume, open to the page, take a hi-resolution film picture, develop the negative, print the positive, and make copies for distribution.

    then place the certification on the print copy of the negative and everything is clear and confirmed.

    A Polaroid might be sufficient!

    But, that won’t happen, will it?

    FU. Take your racism and shove it up you arse. And choke on your boogers. You and your ilk never asked for stuff like this from anyone else. You only do it now because you’re a racist piece of cow dung. Go to hell.

  241. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 22, 2013 at 2:40 am #

    saynomorejoe:
    Suppostion is not fact, and , I will agree to that!

    But, supposition on the postive side and on the negative side is still just supposition!

    The original bc has not been disclosed, in the situation being discussed, so without a verification of the original document , and not a verification of a certified copy of the document, is still , in fact, unknown information to the posters on this board.
    How about a photocopy? We have the Hawaii Department of Health taking a photocopy of the document, and certifying that photocopy (actually 2 photocopies) with the official stamp and seal which certifies birth certificates. Why do they need a high-resolution photograph? A photocopy is a high-resolution photograph, basically. They even photocopied it onto official Hawaii Department of Health Security Paper.

    That photocopy was then shown to the Press, and even the White House Coorispondent for WorldNetDaily said that this laid it to rest for him. The birthers still call them forgeries.

    Dispute this all you wish!

    HDOH has never verified the original document, they have verified that the information that was requested to be verified is, in fact , the information on the recorded document!

    Actually, they have.

    “Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.”

    And that is all they are able to do, as they refuse to disclose to the public a photocopy of the original document, before it has been processed through computers.

    You mean like show the press a photocopy of it? Obama did that. Savannah Guthrie held the photocopy of it, felt the seal that they certified it with, and yet you still insist that nobody has actually seen it. Are you calling Savannah Guthrie a liar?

  242. avatar
    The Magic M April 22, 2013 at 5:35 am #

    Keith: but Polaroid film is basically unobtanium

    Aren’t we used to birthers demanding the impossible? Like asking for the doctor who delivered Obama to be still alive in his 90’s or 100’s to provide witness testimony?

    The Polaroid goalpost is obviously motivated by the belief that somehow analog media are less likely to be manipulated than digital media. (Note he specifically didn’t ask for a photograph taken with a digital Hasselblad, for example.) Nothing could be further from the truth. Especially if he’s talking about “print a positive” and not “forensically examine the negative to make sure it’s not been tampered with”.

  243. avatar
    aarrgghh April 22, 2013 at 6:53 am #

    saynomorejoe: A Polaroid might be sufficient!

    my investments in birfer goalposts just hit another high.

  244. avatar
    The Magic M April 22, 2013 at 8:00 am #

    I heard it will all go away if Hawaii just provided an oral verification by Ms Verna Lee recorded on a 78 rpm shellac record. C’mon, give birthers some credit, it’s not like they’re asking for the moon. 😉

  245. avatar
    Paper April 22, 2013 at 8:11 am #

    But again a birth certificate is prima facie evidence, which means your philosophical equivalence between positive and negative is irrelevant. You are the one who has to provide negative evidence, not negative supposition. You are the one who needs to dispute the birth information with hard evidence, not soft supposition.

    saynomorejoe:
    Suppostion is not fact, and , I will agree to that!

    But, supposition on the postive side and on the negative side is still just supposition!

  246. avatar
    Paper April 22, 2013 at 8:14 am #

    The whole point of the birth certificate system is to avoid such autistic silliness. Unless you have hard evidence of fraud, we have seen what we need to see.

    I also have not seen the atoms of the floor through a tunneling microscope, and yet I still walk on the floor.

    You are the one who needs to dispute with hard evidence that “the floor is not actually real.” Because we have the prima facie evidence of walking on it just fine.

    saynomorejoe:
    The original bc has not been disclosed, in the situation being discussed, so without a verification of the original document , and not a verification of a certified copy of the document, is still , in fact, unknown information to the posters on this board.

    Dispute this all you wish!

  247. avatar
    Paper April 22, 2013 at 8:16 am #

    And that is all they need to do. It also is more than has been done for any other president. If you don’t have evidence of fraud, then I am afraid you will have to accept President Obama being treated like any other law-abiding citizen. That’s how we do it in America.

    saynomorejoe:
    HDOH has never verified the original document, they have verified that the information that was requested to be verified is , in fact , the information on the recorded document!

    And that is all they are able to do…

  248. avatar
    Keith April 22, 2013 at 9:41 am #

    saynomorejoe: But, of course, it was just happenstance that the typo was in the first number, as it could not have happened with the other four numbers., Right!
    I chance if 5 that the typo would result in the exact way it did, but that is the only explanation needed.

    And it just happened to hit a number that had already been issued !

    But, hey, we know it must have been that way, otherwise we would have to admit there is a problem

    Hey, a guy in another Forum I watch, (a sports fansite) just typed a ‘9’ when he meant to type a ‘0’.

    Wow. Whaddya think about that? What are the odds?

    “If Arizona lands Johnson, Victor in 2914 and Raab or Zimmerman in 2015, they don’t need Cheatham to be a stud until year 3.”

  249. avatar
    nbc April 22, 2013 at 10:48 am #

    saynomorejoe: HDOH has never verified the original document, they have verified that the information that was requested to be verified is , in fact , the information on the recorded document!

    They certified all the information of the original document when they provided the copy of the original document. There is nothing that remains that has not been certified. Of course, you can argue that there was some fraud with the original filing but again, there is no supporting evidence for that and all evidence suggests otherwise: The document was properly attested to by the attending physician and filed soon after the birth, as further evidenced by the newspaper announcements.

    There is nothing really here Joe that would give a court a reason to doubt the veracity and accuracy of the document.
    You still may not appreciate the relevance of a self-authenticating document and the challenge to overcome for those who believe that the document was filed fraudulently.

    And that is all they are able to do, as they refuse to disclose to the public a photocopy of the original document, before it has been processed through computers.

    Well, any copy will be processes in some form or manner so under your scenario, the long form certificates that were made and properly certified and verified would meet your requirements.

    Ironic is it not… Or is the word desperate…

  250. avatar
    nbc April 22, 2013 at 10:52 am #

    saynomorejoe: But, that won’t happen, will it?

    Unlikely as they have basically done what you have asked for. But of course that does not stop you from moving the goal posts ever so slightly.

    It’s a non-issue really as you realize that the courts would have and have not had any problem accepting the certified document under the rules of evidence.

    And that means that, legally speaking, the issue has become a dead end.

  251. avatar
    The Magic M April 22, 2013 at 11:25 am #

    Paper: It also is more than has been done for any other president.

    I still haven’t heard “saynomorejoe” comment on whether he thinks Reagan (whose BC was created (!) 31 years after his birth) meets his standard of proof and why. Of course “because nobody asked questions” is not a valid answer, therefore he obviously has no other.

  252. avatar
    Jim April 22, 2013 at 11:26 am #

    saynomorejoe:

    HDOH has never verified the original document, they have verified that the information that was requested to be verified is , in fact , the information on the recorded document!

    And that is all they are able to do, as they refuse to disclose to the public a photocopy of the original document, before it has been processed through computers.

    You really have no understanding of WHY there is even a BC do you? I’ll bet you could not define WHAT a Birth Certificate is to save your life Joe.

    Actually, you totally messed up the second part too. They disclosed it during a Press Conference at the White House…so there are multiple witnesses to the photocopy. Now, what would you have the President do to show over 150,000,000 voters? Maybe scan it and post it on the internet? That way anyone who is curious can look at if…and we know the information matches with what is on record.

  253. avatar
    Paper April 22, 2013 at 12:36 pm #

    The irony is that every other president was a fraud. President Obama actually has been the only natural born citizen of all of them.

    Proof here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

    The Magic M: I still haven’t heard “saynomorejoe” comment on whether he thinks Reagan (whose BC was created (!) 31 years after his birth) meets his standard of proof and why.