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Help wanted

A good many years ago I heard a talk by the head of the Shell Oil Company about the growth stages of businesses. He started off by describing the entrepreneurial company, and said that the growth of that form of business was limited by how much the founder of the company could get his arms around. While the entrepreneurial company model is great for a start-up, it is not sustainable over the long term. The entrepreneur who insists on micromanagement is doomed to limited success. That concept stuck with me because I worked for many years for just such a company and saw the limitations borne out in practice.

The Obama Conspiracy Theories blog is not a business in any sense of the term, but it is an enterprise, and it has been just one guy for four and half years. It is limited in what it can accomplish by how much personal time I’m willing to put into articles, and when I do other things (for example travel), the blog goes stale with no new material, the number of visitors drops off, and the discussion wanders off topic. So, I’m going to try to move beyond the original one-guy model for the blog and ask for volunteers, so as to make the blog better than just me, and to sustain it ongoing.

I am looking for two kinds of help in this evolutionary step:

  1. Person(s) to assist with the routine administrative tasks of the blog, principally in dealing with comments in moderation, rescuing legitimate comments from the spam filter, emptying the spam folder, and the identification and control of new troll threats.
  2. Person(s) to write articles to appear under the volunteer’s byline, to expand coverage of other conspiracies that I don’t follow (like “Obama caused the Oklahoma tornado and Texas explosion to punish them for not moving forward with ObamaCare”), and to offer other perspectives besides mine. I think the existing policies and editorial guidelines are the best idea of what I would want.

Folks interested in assisting with administration of the blog should send me a note on the Comment page. I am be interested in one-time article submissions, but I’m more looking for someone who would establish a body of work here. I would expect volunteers to have previously established a login to the blog with a strong password.

Light fuse. Run away.

70 Responses to Help wanted

  1. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 21, 2013 at 1:28 pm #

    1) WKA cites Dicey approvingly
    2) Dicey says natural born subject means subject at birth

    WKA doesn’t cite this particular passage from Dicey from A Digest of the Law of England with Reference to the Conflict of Laws, but I think it is helpful:

    The principle of the common law is that a person born beyond the limits of the British dominions does not at his birth owe allegiance to the Crown, and cannot, therefore, be a natural-born British subject. If such a person acquires British nationality at all, he must acquire it at some later period of his life. This principle, however, was before 1870 so far relaxed by legislation that “persons born abroad whose fathers (or grandfathers by the father’s side) were natural-born subjects are deemed to be natural born subjects themselves, to all intents and purposes.”

    1, A is born in England. B, his son, is born at Naples. S, the son of B and grandson of A (S’s paternal grandfather), is also born at Naples. S is a natural-born British British subject. …

    “We think the sense of these words [i.e., ‘natural-born British subject,’ in the statute 4 Geo. II. c. 21] is very plain. Natural-born subjects are mentioned as distinguished from subjects by donation or any other mode. A child born out of the allegiance of the Crown of England is not entitled to be deemed a natural-born subject, unless the father be, at the time of the birth of the child, not a subject only, but a subject by birth. The two characters of subject and subject by birth must unite in the father.” [Footnote to Doe d. Thomas v. Ackolam (1842), 2 St. Tr. N. S. 105, 120 per curiam.]

    ballantine: There is nothing in Wong Kim Ark that remotely suggests a foreign born person can be natural born.

  2. avatar
    Bonsall Obot May 22, 2013 at 12:49 pm #

    I worry, though; would these volunteers be subject to arrest/prosecution/execution when The Usurper is frog-marched out of the “White” House (which event, I am reliably informed, shall occur any day now?)

  3. avatar
    Arthur May 22, 2013 at 1:16 pm #

    I’d like to help, but like many here, I’m a member of O.S.C.A.R. (Obama’s Socialist Commenters and Ridiculers), and after four years in the union, I’m making five figures. According to the Soros Handbook, if I were to take on extra duties at your blog, I’d shoot up into another tax bracket, and while I may be a socialist, I’m not an idiot.

    Speaking of which. . . John? Hermitian?

  4. avatar
    JPotter May 22, 2013 at 1:29 pm #

    An effort to expand beyond birtherism?

    There’s little new birther actions, but reams of material for criticism and theses writin’.

    Ideas I have, but time I do not. Heck, I never finished the one article I did propose. 🙁

  5. avatar
    ben May 22, 2013 at 2:12 pm #

    So Doc, since you began the “help wanted” article/blog with a preamble on management models and such. Would it be fair to ask are you seeking volunteers or does the job pay compensation in real dollars?

  6. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 22, 2013 at 2:23 pm #

    ben: So Doc, since you began the “help wanted” article/blog with a preamble on management models and such. Would it be fair to ask are you seeking volunteers or does the job pay compensation in real dollars?.

    Last sentence:

    “I would expect volunteers to have previously established a login to the blog with a strong password.”

  7. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 22, 2013 at 2:30 pm #

    We understand, Doc. Your life as Iron Man is getting in the way of working on this blog.

  8. avatar
    Majority Will May 22, 2013 at 2:31 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Last sentence:

    “I would expect volunteers to have previously established a login to the blog with a strong password.”

    But if you parse it like a birther, it means only people who can prove they are native born residents of Tennessee with American parents.

  9. avatar
    ObiWanCannoli May 22, 2013 at 2:32 pm #

    ben:
    So Doc, since you began the “help wanted” article/blog with a preamble on management models and such.Would it be fair to ask are you seeking volunteers or does the job pay compensation in real dollars?

    The rumor has it that you will be paid in real Zimbabwean dollars.

  10. avatar
    Arthur May 22, 2013 at 3:11 pm #

    ObiWanCannoli: The rumor has it that you will be paid in real Zimbabwean dollars.

    I thought it was going to be in Orlybucks. Redeemable at Dollar General stores everywhere!

  11. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 22, 2013 at 3:52 pm #

    Arthur: I thought it was going to be in Orlybucks. Redeemable at Dollar General stores everywhere!

    Nah! My money is on Bison dollars! They’re worth 5 British pounds, ya know!

  12. avatar
    US Citizen May 22, 2013 at 4:37 pm #

    “run away!”

    Next birther headline: “We’ve got Doc on the run!”

    And how many Zullodollars equals an Orlybuck?

    Moe: “Does the deer have a little doe?”
    Curly: “Yeah, two bucks!”

  13. avatar
    Jim May 22, 2013 at 4:50 pm #

    Doc, thanks for all the hard work you’ve put in all these years…I really appreciate it. But, isn’t this a family business? Shouldn’t you pass it on to your kids? 😀

  14. avatar
    misha marinsky May 22, 2013 at 5:04 pm #

    US Citizen:
    Moe: “Does the deer have a little doe?”
    Curly: “Yeah, two bucks!”

    What’s the difference between Beer Nuts and deer nuts?

    Beer Nuts are $1.79. Deer nuts are under a buck.

  15. avatar
    misha marinsky May 22, 2013 at 5:07 pm #

    “I am interested in one-time article submissions, but I’m more looking for someone who would establish a body of work here.”

    You would not want me. I’d be sardonic.

  16. avatar
    misha marinsky May 22, 2013 at 5:37 pm #

    ObiWanCannoli: The rumor has it that you will be paid in real Zimbabwean dollars.

    No, the pay will be in Kenyan shillings. Be realistic.

  17. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 22, 2013 at 5:39 pm #

    Sorry, the blog has no income to shre.

    ben: So Doc, since you began the “help wanted” article/blog with a preamble on management models and such. Would it be fair to ask are you seeking volunteers or does the job pay compensation in real dollars?

  18. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 22, 2013 at 6:06 pm #

    I think that fella who runs Badfiction would do a bang up job.

  19. avatar
    bgansel9 May 22, 2013 at 6:24 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG:
    I think that fella who runs Badfiction would do a bang up job.

    I agree.

  20. avatar
    Craig HS May 22, 2013 at 6:34 pm #

    Badfiction? We talking a general merger, or a Romneyfied, tea-party approved takeover and ransacking for sellable assets?

  21. avatar
    Patrick McKinnion May 22, 2013 at 7:15 pm #

    *Twitch*

    I mean I’m flattered, but as Birtherstan winds down, I was planning to get back into bad movie reviews.

    Besides, I’m not sure that Doc’s style and my style would mesh very well. Which is not a slur on Doc mind you! He’s a bit more research-oriented, I’m a bit more snark-oriented.

    Throw in a Can-Am Spyder, I might consider it. *chuckle*

  22. avatar
    misha marinsky May 22, 2013 at 7:47 pm #

    Patrick McKinnion: I was planning to get back into bad movie reviews.

    Number Seven opened last night. It was misnamed by five. – Alexander Woollcott

  23. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 22, 2013 at 8:21 pm #

    Patrick McKinnion:

    I mean I’m flattered, but as Birtherstan winds down, I was planning to get back into bad movie reviews.

    Speaking of! Tomorrow, Rifftrax is releasing a VoD of “Doctor Who and the Daleks” starring Peter Cushing as the Doctor(Who isn’t a Time lord, and actually has “Who” as a last name.)

    You know, some of us “Obots” oughta get together and do a riff of Orly’s trainwreck of a DVD!

  24. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 22, 2013 at 8:38 pm #

    Patrick has a great blog and he does a great job on the news (and probably knows more about the birthers than I do). I think he identifies the stylistic difference well below.

    Patrick McKinnion:

    Besides, I’m not sure that Doc’s style and my style would mesh very well. Which is not a slur on Doc mind you! He’s a bit more research-oriented, I’m a bit more snark-oriented.

  25. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 22, 2013 at 8:40 pm #

    Ouch, that was an awful movie.

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: Speaking of! Tomorrow, Rifftrax is releasing a VoD of “Doctor Who and the Daleks” starring Peter Cushing as the Doctor(Who isn’t a Time lord, and actually has “Who” as a last name.)

  26. avatar
    Thinker May 22, 2013 at 8:41 pm #

    Doc: i sent you an email through the blog’s comment page earlier today.

  27. avatar
    US Citizen May 22, 2013 at 9:21 pm #

    Patrick McKinnion:

    Throw in a Can-Am Spyder, I might consider it. *chuckle*

    … and a pony? 🙂

  28. avatar
    Patrick McKinnion May 22, 2013 at 9:24 pm #

    US Citizen: … and a pony?

    No place to put a pony 🙂

  29. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 22, 2013 at 9:54 pm #

    Patrick McKinnion: No place to put a pony

    Well according to this documentary series about ponies, that my daughters watch. They don’t need much room, and are brightly colored.

  30. avatar
    misha marinsky May 22, 2013 at 10:12 pm #

    Patrick McKinnion: No place to put a pony

    Andrew Vrba, PmG:They don’t need much room.

    Miniature horses can be house trained, and most live indoors. They are also certified as service animals, because they can pull a wheelchair.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR9tmRNUBDo

  31. avatar
    Patrick McKinnion May 23, 2013 at 12:48 am #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: Well according to this documentary series about ponies, that my daughters watch. They don’t need much room, and are brightly colored.

    Hey, my pony’s got a rainbow on it’s butt!!

  32. avatar
    misha marinsky May 23, 2013 at 1:51 am #

    Patrick McKinnion: my pony’s got a rainbow on it’s butt!!

    Then it’s a unicorn.

  33. avatar
    Lupin May 23, 2013 at 5:29 am #

    OT, I believe the Cushing Doctor has since then been reincorporated in the DW canon (at least, the one that includes the licensed novels) by making his adventures parts of the Land of Fiction.

    As fror Doc’s post, I’n happy to see that George Soros is hiring. 🙂

  34. avatar
    Craig HS May 23, 2013 at 6:27 am #

    misha marinsky: Then it’s a unicorn.

    Nonono, unicorns fart glitter and rainbows. If a pony has a rainbow tattoo’d on its butt, then it’s a pegasus, and an obot. According to wingnutistan, Obama’s using the weather as a weapon against red states now, and pegasus ponies control the weather.

  35. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) May 23, 2013 at 9:53 am #

    Recently Orly put a disclaimer on her blog that reads like she’s not the only one posting there. Coincidence? 😉

  36. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 23, 2013 at 10:31 am #

    Thanks to the folks who have volunteered to help with moderating comments on the blog.

    I still would like to find volunteers for one or more articles.

  37. avatar
    US Citizen May 23, 2013 at 3:27 pm #

    My personal take nowadays is that birther leaders are very narcissistic people.
    Such people can’t help but to read what critical people are writing about them.
    So as much as I enjoy this blog, Bad Fiction and the Fogbow, I believe birthers obtain much of their current anger and feelings for challenge simply from reading our articles and comments.

    I also believe that birthers are convinced that because we’re writing about them, we must be scared.
    This bothers me because I know we’re not and it’s been proven by every court case yet attempted.
    Also in the fact that Obama was elected two times.
    He’s never lost and they’ve never won.

    At this date knowing that we’re empirically right and that birthers are often mentally challenged or deficient, we’re tending to come off now as bullies or sadists.
    Who else attacks others they know cannot fight or are suffering from a medical condition?

    So I think that maybe it is we who are egging them on now and exasperating the situation to some degree.
    Obama hasn’t any fear, nor even publicly addressed the birthers in years.
    If we said nothing from this day on, nothing would change in regards to Obama’s NBC status.

  38. avatar
    JPotter May 23, 2013 at 4:28 pm #

    US Citizen: nor even publicly addressed the birthers in years.

    You mean, other than the frequent, joking references?

    US Citizen: If we said nothing from this day on, nothing would change in regards to Obama’s NBC status.

    That has been the case since since Hawaii started attesting to his birth there in documentation … that’d be when they filed his BC back in 1961. Having failed to misplace his birth records before his candidacy, and having been kind enough to produce them on [legitimate] demand, the deal has been sealed since 2007.

    I would say since birth, but it isn’t what happened that counts, it what you can document 😉

  39. avatar
    US Citizen May 23, 2013 at 7:03 pm #

    JPotter: You mean, other than the frequent, joking references?

    Yes, exactly.
    Jokes at at dinner are one thing. (especially for K Street reporters.)
    Holding a live public press conference to announce release of the LFBC is quite another.

  40. avatar
    G May 23, 2013 at 10:24 pm #

    Yes, they are very narcissistic AND paranoid people.

    Look, they are going to find a way to feed both their narcissism and paranoia regardless. Ignoring them won’t change that either. That mindset is driven also by the need to “convert… so they’ll seek out attention and demand redress for their perceived “ills”, regardless.

    Their main source, at least as Birthers, is that they can’t accept a world with Obama as President in it. Simple as that. Whether we are here observing, reporting on them and laughing at them or not, they are still going to obsess and fill their heads with paranoid delusions and hate-based fantasies and be filled with the need of bothering others with demands that everyone pay attention to their concerns.

    Nothing less than Obama’s Presidency “never having happened” will ever satisfy them or pacify them. PERIOD.

    So no, I’m not going to feel responsible or sorry for their own personal flaws and failings, nor feel that I have to somehow remain silent when others are behaving badly, simply to spare their poor little narcissistic butt-hurt feelings. That’s absurd.

    Yeah, I consider a lot of them mentally ill, but I can’t control their behavior. Appeasement never works for these folks. It only serves to encourage and embolden them.

    We are not bullies or sadists at all here. Maybe you could say that about those that go out of their way to tease and troll birthers at their own sites. THAT can be construed as “egging” or poking them with sticks, sure.

    But if sites like this, Fogbow and Bad Fiction didn’t exist, the Birthers would still exist and I have ZERO reason to believe that they’d be any less active or belligerent at all. If anything, I’d be concerned that they would be even more dangerous, numerous and belligerent, as those mindsets assume they are right and their default position is to run roughshod with their sense of demands and entitlement, until they are opposed. More innocent people could be brainwashed or confused, if no one was there to help debunk the lies. If no one was standing up to them, they would just be further emboldened to take actions or demand actions.

    Sorry, but I’d actually argue that only rejection/ridicule of their false premises and demands act as deterrents to keep them somewhat in check. They have no sense of social awareness or being able to maintain their own boundaries of behavior, without something that pushes them back.

    You really need to get a better grasp of how cause and effect work. We’re a REACTIVE force here. If we laugh or comment or tell them they are crazy, it is because they DID something to EARN a response. Simple as that.

    You seem to ignore that these folks don’t just come here, but tend to spend a lot of time showing up in the comments section of almost every news site, book site, etc. that they can find. They’ll spout and push their birtherism and write angry letters to officials whether we are here or not. And they will do it endlessly, simply because Obama exists and is alive and had the audacity to run and get elected period.

    So I reject your argument and am insulted that you would play into their sense of false persecution and victimhood and tell the rest of us to just shut up and go away because…boo hoo…the Birthers don’t like when we don’t agree with their behaviors or simply accept their will and their lies.

    If you personally feel some sense of “guilt” with being here, then no one is forcing you to comment or participate in this either. You do so by your own choice. If you wish to say “nothing from this day on”, by all means, no one is stopping you.

    Sorry, but we’ve never had anything to do with Obama’s NBC status. He was always NBC, regardless of us or the Birthers or anything. We’ve just been a party to observing, debunking, commenting and occasionally laughing at the whole crazy phenomenon. But we never created the phenomenon in the first place, nor are we in any manner, serving to prop it up.

    US Citizen:
    My personal take nowadays is that birther leaders are very narcissistic people.
    Such people can’t help but to read what critical people are writing about them.
    So as much as I enjoy this blog, Bad Fiction and the Fogbow, I believe birthers obtain much of their current anger and feelings for challenge simply from reading our articles and comments.

    I also believe that birthers are convinced that because we’re writing about them, we must be scared.
    This bothers me because I know we’re not and it’s been proven by every court case yet attempted.
    Also in the fact that Obama was elected two times.
    He’s never lost and they’ve never won.

    At this date knowing that we’re empirically right and that birthers are often mentally challenged or deficient, we’re tending to come off now as bullies or sadists.
    Who else attacks others they know cannot fight or are suffering from a medical condition?

    So I think that maybe it is we who are egging them on now and exasperating the situation to some degree.
    Obama hasn’t any fear, nor even publicly addressed the birthers in years.
    If we said nothing from this day on, nothing would change in regards to Obama’s NBC status.

  41. avatar
    US Citizen May 24, 2013 at 12:39 am #

    “That mindset is driven also by the need to “convert… so they’ll seek out attention and demand redress for their perceived “ills”, regardless.”

    0 times 0 is still 0.
    If 5 billion people believed in birtherism, it still wouldn’t change the fact they’re laboring over a lost issue.

    “Whether we are here observing, reporting on them and laughing at them or not, they are still going to obsess and fill their heads with paranoid delusions and hate-based fantasies and be filled with the need of bothering others with demands that everyone pay attention to their concerns.”

    That’s the point. Whether anyone does anything here or not, they will continue.
    So to a certain extent, why bother?
    I mean, they may not have lives, but many here are professionals whose time is valuable.
    My consideration is that people with value should apply it where valuable, not waste it on a waste.

    “So no, I’m not going to feel responsible or sorry for their own personal flaws and failings, nor feel that I have to somehow remain silent when others are behaving badly, simply to spare their poor little narcissistic butt-hurt feelings. That’s absurd.”

    I never asked or implied any one here provide apologies or feel sorry.
    I don’t care so much for their feelings.
    Again, I just find it a bit silly… after 4.5 years… that highly intelligent people are still spending valuable time discussing what is tantamount to whether the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus exists.
    Of course others will believe they do. Others believe the Earth is flat.
    But it seems a waste once you’ve won all the wars to then spend time rubbing it in.
    I’m no Christian, but grace has its value.

    “Yeah, I consider a lot of them mentally ill, but I can’t control their behavior. Appeasement never works for these folks. It only serves to encourage and embolden them.”

    Ignoring them is not appeasement.
    No one asked any one to control their behavior either.
    Whether they are encouraged or emboldened, who cares?
    They’re losers. The race is over, they lost.

    “We are not bullies or sadists at all here. Maybe you could say that about those that go out of their way to tease and troll birthers at their own sites. THAT can be construed as “egging” or poking them with sticks, sure.”

    No slam to you, but if you say “we” (all inclusive) and then provide examples to the opposite, I respectfully suggest you cannot be speaking about everyone.

    “But if sites like this, Fogbow and Bad Fiction didn’t exist, the Birthers would still exist and I have ZERO reason to believe that they’d be any less active or belligerent at all.”

    I think you’re missing my point.
    If we and the others didn’t exist, birthers would still exist. Okay.
    So what is the point other than egging them on or attempting to educate them on a point already proven both legally and by a preponderance of votes?

    “If anything, I’d be concerned that they would be even more dangerous, numerous and belligerent, as those mindsets assume they are right and their default position is to run roughshod with their sense of demands and entitlement, until they are opposed.”

    Personally I don’t see the danger.
    Yes, we can find an example of that loony who shot a guard.
    But as you’ve pointed out, we’re going to have uncontrollable loonies anyway.
    If anything, insulting and ridiculing might push some over the edge.
    They’ve already been ignored by anyone that matters.
    Who cares what they demand?
    Orly, Klayman and others have demanded until their faces turned blue.
    What good has it done them?

    “More innocent people could be brainwashed or confused, if no one was there to help debunk the lies. If no one was standing up to them, they would just be further emboldened to take actions or demand actions.”

    Surely those susceptible to brainwashing or conversion are already Obama haters.
    We can’t change that.
    And emboldened as they are to take or demand actions, they always lose.
    I have high doubts our blog has dissuaded many birther lawyers from filing cases.
    You see, I view this in a very polarized fashion.
    All the lawyers and judges sympathetic to birther causes have or will be defeated as their cases escalate.
    And most if not all lawyers who haven’t signed on to birtherism by now (and have rejected representing birthers) are not going to be convinced this late in the game.
    Truly, the legal community is divided between the law which has continually been supported and a very minor population of scammers and ambulance chasers who will never see any success.
    These paths are unlikely to cross to any greater degree. (i.e.: birthers win, new lawyers join, etc.)

    “Sorry, but I’d actually argue that only rejection/ridicule of their false premises and demands act as deterrents to keep them somewhat in check. They have no sense of social awareness or being able to maintain their own boundaries of behavior, without something that pushes them back.”

    But as you implied, it wouldn’t make a difference anyway.
    I don’t understand “pushing them back.”
    Back from wrong to still wrong?
    If they were limo-escorted to lawyers, courts and major politicians, they *still* wouldn’t enjoy success.

    “You really need to get a better grasp of how cause and effect work. We’re a REACTIVE force here. If we laugh or comment or tell them they are crazy, it is because they DID something to EARN a response. Simple as that.”

    I don’t appreciate you implying that I don’t understand logic.
    Whether simple, boolean or others, I’m pretty good at it.
    But I’m lost on this “cause and effect.”
    If an input doesn’t actually change an output, it’s a null.
    It has no bearing on outcome.

    To me, you sound both defensive and somewhat scared.
    Exactly what success or empowerment do you believe we’re thwarting?
    If all “obots” dropped dead today, the birthers would still lose.
    Your attitude suggests we’re all guarding a door that has nothing to gain being opened.
    Whether closed or left open, what’s inside that door doesn’t change.
    Has ignoring flat Earthers made the Earth flat?

    “You seem to ignore that these folks don’t just come here, but tend to spend a lot of time showing up in the comments section of almost every news site, book site, etc. that they can find. They’ll spout and push their birtherism and write angry letters to officials whether we are here or not. And they will do it endlessly, simply because Obama exists and is alive and had the audacity to run and get elected period.”

    You seem to project a false belief upon me.
    I fully know they’re loudmouths.
    But I’m lost as to how they being loudmouths where egged on or not, makes them any more successful.
    My point is that they may well become LESS vocal when fewer people pay attention to them.
    Insulting them has obviously not work.
    My suggestion here is now to ignore them.
    We haven’t tried that yet.

    “So I reject your argument and am insulted that you would play into their sense of false persecution and victimhood and tell the rest of us to just shut up and go away because…boo hoo…the Birthers don’t like when we don’t agree with their behaviors or simply accept their will and their lies.”

    Actually, you’ve never tested my argument, so it would be hard to say I’m wrong.
    We have tested your argument and nothing changed.
    If you’re insulted, perhaps you have some deep guilt about this.
    Not being a psychoanalyst, I won’t try.
    But whether you like it or not, YOU seem to be projecting upon me and my beliefs.
    For example that I “play into their sense of false persecution and victimhood.”
    Nothing could be further from the truth.
    The truth is: I don’t care about them. They’re useless.
    I care about us.
    Are we using them as a punching bag for other woes in our lives?
    Are we actually scared somehow they will succeed?
    Are we wasting valuable time we could be using to help good and honest people or being more productive in our respective careers?
    “If you personally feel some sense of “guilt” with being here, then no one is forcing you to comment or participate in this either. You do so by your own choice. If you wish to say “nothing from this day on”, by all means, no one is stopping you.”

    I might because so far no one has yet shown me how we’re stopping birthers from any real damage and I’ve a sense of duty to more meaningful people that have potential.

    Guilt? No. Again, I really don’t care about them.
    I am however insulted that after 4.5 years here you’d project such a view upon me.
    If you can’t learn something in that amount of time, why expect a birther to?

    No, if all birthers dropped dead today… or convinced a million more people to be birthers… it would effect no change upon Obama.
    They don’t matter and at this point, I’m not sure we do other than for our jollys.

    I need not comment on your last paragraph as you started to become redundant.
    However I will say that we’re not “serving to prop it up.”
    But equally so, we’re not serving to actually change anything that matters now either.
    At this point, blogs like this only seem to exist like some fans who lost a ball game, but remain in their seats and continue arguing “what ifs.”
    What if doesn’t matter.
    What is does.
    If we all took our professional time and pooled it towards something meaningful, we might actually do something worthwhile.
    But I cannot see the worth in beating down a loser continually for years after they lost.
    I never meant my comment to insult you personally.
    It was more of a suggestion that some of us might step back and reevaluate how they value their own time.
    If others want to spend their time on a venture with no benefits other than laughter, that’s up to them.
    I just think the aggregate value of us is worth more than the jokes at this point.
    The comedy has become stale because there’s few new jokes.

  42. avatar
    G May 24, 2013 at 2:08 am #

    Actually, if 5 billion people believed in birtherism, we’d have a huge problem, as society is built upon man-made laws, regardless of how the natural world operates beyond our control.

    5 billion crazy people on a witch-hunt would be worse than a zombie apocalypse, in terms of addressing problems. You’d have a bunch of immaturely emotional crazies who would simply have the numbers to do what they want and YES – kill who they want and don’t like, regardless if their “lost issue” was wrong, non-factual and illegal.

    That would be a world of witch-hunts and irrational persecutions, based solely on paranoid delusions, regardless of actual facts.

    US Citizen:
    G:“That mindset is driven also by the need to “convert… so they’ll seek out attention and demand redress for their perceived “ills”, regardless.”

    0 times 0 is still 0.
    If 5 billion people believed in birtherism, it still wouldn’t change the fact they’re laboring over a lost issue.

  43. avatar
    G May 24, 2013 at 2:08 am #

    I would assume that most of us are wasting time in our spare time or between professional projects to do this, or whatever other hobbies we chose to do in our free time. Are there always other chores or hobbies or activities that anyone can do? Certainly. But we each have the right and freedom to chose how we spend our free time. I’m sure many of us struggle with the “why bother” question, on this and on other things from time to time…but it is still each of our rights to make that decision for ourselves.

    I have no problem with you deciding to move on to other things in your own personal answer to the “why bother” question. What I find offensive is that you come across as sanctimonious and shaming towards the rest of us, as if it is somehow morally wrong for this site to exist or for any of us to come here. Or that you have the right to tell me how to spend my free time. My wife may have a right to suggest that there are always an endless array of house and projects I could be doing in my spare time, but you don’t.

    I certainly don’t come here or pay as much attention to them as I used to and more and more of my free time has moved onto other things (and not necessarily always those house/yard projects). But each of us has the right to be here and chose to comment or leave on our own terms, not yours. This site and others like it or others on similar topics have every right to exist. If you’ve reached the point where you are uncomfortable with that, then spend your own time differently and simply don’t visit or don’t participate. But to show up here, just to tell others that they need to stop and close up shop…well, that’s rude.

    US Citizen:
    G: “Whether we are here observing, reporting on them and laughing at them or not, they are still going to obsess and fill their heads with paranoid delusions and hate-based fantasies and be filled with the need of bothering others with demands that everyone pay attention to their concerns.”

    That’s the point. Whether anyone does anything here or not, they will continue.
    So to a certain extent, why bother?
    I mean, they may not have lives, but many here are professionals whose time is valuable.
    My consideration is that people with value should apply it where valuable, not waste it on a waste.

  44. avatar
    G May 24, 2013 at 2:40 am #

    But, other than Birthers that come to visit, we’re not arguing whether the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus exists. Look, a lot of us are of some combination of baffled, appalled or even concerned that there are people out there that believe the things the Birthers believe. Some of it can seem so absurd or folly, that it does provide a sense of perverse entertainment. Some of it is simply alarming. And some of it is a sense of trying to understand the human condition and some of the strange mental flaws and leaps in logic that can occur…it can be a bizarre and sometimes hard to explain fascination/revulsion all at the same time.

    I don’t know if you could classify it as a “war”…I think that is just over the top and silly. Those paranoids may see the world as a war…and from a sane point, there is more of a continuum and desire to simply refute bunk with truth and correct nonsense every time it pops up. So from that sense, it could be a never-ending struggle, I guess…

    But I almost see this site as existing and having value for monitoring crazy, paranoid behavior for the same reason that the SPLC exists. There really is a lot of overlap there. And yes, I do have concern that if crazy is just left alone and unmonitored, it doesn’t go away, it just festers and then becomes more dangerous, because no one sees the danger coming.

    As I said, I’m more of a reactive person by nature and folks get a response out of me, based on what they invoke. I consider people, whether they are crazy or not, to be responsible for their own words and deeds, including dealing with any reactions those cause. So while on one hand, I understand the valid moral dilemma and concern about grace and rubbing it in, I also don’t have any problem ridiculing those that chose to be ridiculous – and by that, I mean the Birthers, not you.

    You’ve invoked a reaction from me, because while I actually can grasp and understand the moral dilemma you are internally struggling with (and trust me, its one that I’m sure most of us wrestle with from time to time), I was irked by your manner of presentation, as if we all need to stop and move on and close up shop and somehow feel sorry for these hate-based idiots and their behavior, just because that is what you are personally feeling. Your post felt pushy and we each have our own reasons for still coming back here. If you don’t want to participate anymore, then don’t. If you feel sorry for them, that’s fine. I do to some extent, but not to the extent that you apparently do.

    Their movement is fading. It still has some crazy people and crazy events of interest that are keeping some part of my attention for the time being. And that is my choice. As it inevitably goes the way of the PUMAs and winds a bit further down, there will be new conspiracies to crop up and other things to devote my time to. But when I’m faced with the ridiculous, I have my personal right to respond to it as I see fit, as do the others here, as does the blog owner that choses to report on these or other topics and present this forum in the first place.

    US Citizen:
    Again, I just find it a bit silly… after 4.5 years… that highly intelligent people are still spending valuable time discussing what is tantamount to whether the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus exists.
    Of course others will believe they do. Others believe the Earth is flat.
    But it seems a waste once you’ve won all the wars to then spend time rubbing it in.
    I’m no Christian, but grace has its value.

  45. avatar
    G May 24, 2013 at 2:54 am #

    Sometimes ignoring a problem or an antagonistic force can be a form of appeasement. Sometimes it isn’t. Sometimes I see it that way, but I can try to respect that you do not…so if you wish to ignore them, by all means. Just don’t tell the rest of us how we wish to handle the situation.

    I simply don’t see how we are “controlling their behavior” either. Responding to it, when confronted by it, yes. But no, they are controlling their own behavior and are responsible for their own poor actions and statements and what that invokes.

    Yes they are losers and they’ve lost. That really has been true from the very beginning of their movement. It has only becoming increasingly so. Most of them are just annoying keyboard commandoes; some are potentially capable of doing harm to themselves or others. A lot of folks simply don’t like to “rock a boat” and let even harmless, annoying people continue to be annoying, hoping they will go away. I’ve lived with those types of folks, and I haven’t seen that approach work for the long term either, personally. So yeah, I simply tend to not have much tolerance from annoying and tend to be drawn to calling it out. If that’s a flaw in who I am as a person, then I accept that. But again, I’m a reactive force…but one who tends to react. Its just who I am. So, when confronted by a Birther, I call them out on it and don’t feel any guilt or need to apologize for doing so. I don’t seek confrontation, but I don’t fear it either. If concerned that they might become more harmful, I’ll take steps to make sure the proper authorities are aware of them, so people can be safe.

    US Citizen:
    Ignoring them is not appeasement.
    No one asked any one to control their behavior either.
    Whether they are encouraged or emboldened, who cares?
    They’re losers. The race is over, they lost.

  46. avatar
    G May 24, 2013 at 3:15 am #

    If your point of contention here is that “we” (all inclusive), means that the set of people who post here includes a number of people who also happen to go to and post and at various Birther sites, then you are correct, there are people that chose to do that. I am not one of them and while I chose not to do that, as I personally think that could be construed as “egging”, I also grasp that those individuals each has their own particular reasons for choosing to go to those places. I’m not going to be sanctimonious or condemn them or tell them to stop that behavior either. That’s their reasons and their choices, not mine. I simply don’t feel the need to do that as well.

    But my point is that is not what this site exists to do. I simply do not see this forum as “egging” or “poking them with sticks”. So if you were construing that examples of such take place HERE, then we simply have a different point of view of what happens when Birthers come here, with the clear intent of trolling and what I see as simply causing a reaction of their own doing. You probably see it differently. That’s fine. Nobody is making you post here in any way that you feel uncomfortable with.

    The moderator and the policies here have been fairly effective of keeping things from getting too far out of hand here and putting an end to things that devolve into personal attacks. So I simply don’t see this site and its participants, while they are on this forum , as what you accused: “bully” and “sadist”. I found that characterization to be offensive. But hey, that’s how you seem to now see us, I guess.

    US Citizen:

    G:“We are not bullies or sadists at all here. Maybe you could say that about those that go out of their way to tease and troll birthers at their own sites. THAT can be construed as “egging” or poking them with sticks, sure.”

    No slam to you, but if you say “we” (all inclusive) and then provide examples to the opposite, I respectfully suggest you cannot be speaking about everyone.

  47. avatar
    G May 24, 2013 at 3:34 am #

    I don’t see this site as existing for the actual Birthers at all. They are delusional and set in their hate, beyond hope.

    I think it is of more value as a resource for those less familiar with this crazy phenomenon, who become somewhat curious when they come across Birtherism and might do an internet search to see what they can find out about whatever crazy story they overheard. Instead of just being limited to a bunch of circular-references on controlled Birther sites, they can find the few forums like these, which specialize in addressing the facts on these issues as well as the history of the phenomenon.

    I see the archives as always retaining value for those reasons. That is why, even if this site becomes less active on Birtherism (and I certainly see some level of winding down as inevitable), I still see this forum as a valuable informative service, intended for those outside the bubble of Birtherism.

    The hard-core Birthers themselves…nope. After about the first year or so of Birtherism, it finally sank into me that they themselves are generally a lost cause and beyond education or reason. Their court room antics are both entertaining (due to the absurdity and incompetence) and frustrating (due to the waste of valuable court time and resources), but I never saw them as any “threat” or that the outcome of the Birther’s fail would be in any doubt. There simply never was any validity or merit to any of the Birther claims, and that became obvious in the very early months of any of us seriously researching this phenomenon. Nor did I ever take their “vote” as being a concern in the 2012 cycle. So yes, the partisan propagandists, in their futile hopes to influence an election (by stringing and fleecing a bunch of folks who were always non-Obama votes to begin with) have now mostly fled the scene and stopped feeding the Birthers from that end. But there remains enough hard-core Birther activities still playing out to keep reporting on for now…and so enough for me to still keep coming back to watch and comment on…which is my choice. I assume that others have similar reasons, or else both they and this site wouldn’t still be here.

    Simply put, if you no longer see a point in coming here, then don’t. Clearly, a lot of the rest of us still retain sufficient interest, for whatever our reasons are.

    US Citizen:
    I think you’re missing my point.
    If we and the others didn’t exist, birthers would still exist. Okay.
    So what is the point other than egging them on or attempting to educate them on a point already proven both legally and by a preponderance of votes?

  48. avatar
    G May 24, 2013 at 3:50 am #

    Well, there is more than just the one loony example who shot the guard. But that’s been covered and discussed many times before. Yes, there always is a concern that either reacting or not reacting to them might push a few over the edge… and yes, some of these folks are uncontrollable loonies anway. Most are unlikely to do anything ever, but whine away on their keyboards (thankfully, although it would be nice to not here their whines).

    In terms of those few, potentially unstable ones… who knows what will set them off eventually. But I think it is a good idea to make sure that they are being monitored. In terms of how one acts towards them, it is a dilemma for each of us to take seriously..and quite a damned if you do, damned if you don’t …but I certainly want them reported on and monitored. I simply feel it is easier for the proper authorities to react in time, or prevent something from happening, if they know where the loose cannons are in advance. I realize it is a risk, but I also think these paranoid mindsets are often cowardly, despite their bold pronouncements and that when they know they are monitored (they are paranoid and always assuming so anyways), that more often it serves as a deterrent instead of setting them off. In essence, I still see confronting them (properly) as more effective in general than completely ignoring them. Just my viewpoint on things.

    In terms of just the wasteful folly stuff, like Klayman and all the other crazy Birf gatherings or court cases, or their fantasy grand juries or endless letter writing campaigns, it never has done them any good and never will. But that doesn’t stop them either. But it is like a bad car crash happening or a weird reality TV show, whenever they do these antics. So yeah, we tend to watch as it happens. Again, we’re not causing them to do these things. Nor has there been any real worry of their success. This part (other than the waste of govt time and resources argument) is simply pure hobby entertainment. But they are the ones putting on the show. You seem to be saying shame on us for wanting to still watch. I say if we chose to watch idiots fail, that is our right. We’re not at all creating the show here, but we have the right to each bring our own popcorn. Go turn on another channel if you are no longer interested.

    US Citizen:
    Personally I don’t see the danger.
    Yes, we can find an example of that loony who shot a guard.
    But as you’ve pointed out, we’re going to have uncontrollable loonies anyway.
    If anything, insulting and ridiculing might push some over the edge.
    They’ve already been ignored by anyone that matters.
    Who cares what they demand?
    Orly, Klayman and others have demanded until their faces turned blue.
    What good has it done them?

  49. avatar
    G May 24, 2013 at 4:02 am #

    I don’t have any disagreements with what you’ve said here. My only comment is that you seem to see the purpose here as having been more “activist” instead of how I’ve always viewed it as more “reactive commentary”. (That is how I interpret your meaning of viewing this in a “polarized fashion”.) I’ve simply always saw them as fact-free and on the losing side of reality, the law, etc. – whether due to being bigots, lying grifters, or just delusional paranoids. But while monitoring and commenting, I’ve never seen this site as anything more than a good source for compiling factual information and observing/commenting the phenomenon. I simply don’t see it in the “active battle” terms that I sense from your writing…as if this site once had a purpose that now suddenly is no longer there, just because the election is over.

    US Citizen:
    Surely those susceptible to brainwashing or conversion are already Obama haters.
    We can’t change that.
    And emboldened as they are to take or demand actions, they always lose.
    I have high doubts our blog has dissuaded many birther lawyers from filing cases.
    You see, I view this in a very polarized fashion.
    All the lawyers and judges sympathetic to birther causes have or will be defeated as their cases escalate.
    And most if not all lawyers who haven’t signed on to birtherism by now (and have rejected representing birthers) are not going to be convinced this late in the game.
    Truly, the legal community is divided between the law which has continually been supported and a very minor population of scammers and ambulance chasers who will never see any success.
    These paths are unlikely to cross to any greater degree. (i.e.: birthers win, new lawyers join, etc.)

  50. avatar
    G May 24, 2013 at 4:14 am #

    Some of us simply don’t like hearing lies, no matter how much they are told. It really is the lie itself that personally offends some of us. Yes, it becomes a tedious game of whack-a-mole, but that is each our own choice in how we chose to deal with BS, when confronted by it. But of course they were always wrong and of course they are doomed to endless failure. But if some of us chose to call out blowhards and fools for what they are and to ridicule the ridiculous, that is our choice on how to react. We each chose our methods for what BS we tolerate and what we don’t and how we handle it. I’ve never been worried about their “success” (won’t happen), but I simply don’t have a problem with confronting nonsense and calling it out, whenever it happens, simply for that sake alone.

    US Citizen:

    But as you implied, it wouldn’t make a difference anyway.
    I don’t understand “pushing them back.”
    Back from wrong to still wrong?
    If they were limo-escorted to lawyers, courts and major politicians, they *still* wouldn’t enjoy success.

  51. avatar
    G May 24, 2013 at 4:55 am #

    OK, clearly you and I just have a different purpose and perspective for being here. I didn’t mean to imply that you don’t grasp logic – that was not my intent. But it is clear that my behavior and reasons for being here and commenting are different than yours. So yeah, for me (and you’ve corrected me from saying “we”), its simply a matter of cause/effect that invokes my interest and reactions on this topic. I react to their actions and based on their actions, but other than having concerns about a few potential unstable ones, I only see them as a source of perplexing frustration, not any actual “threat”. For me, the outcome was never in doubt and that aspect has been mostly irrelevant to my interest here. Clearly for you, it is a different matter.

    I’m defensive to your accusations to expect us all to feel guilty for ridiculing them and to just leave here, just because YOU want to. But I’m not scared…you’re just saying something silly like that to come across prickish, simply because your motives and mine for being here are different and you don’t like that I reacted negatively to your sanctimonious shaming screed. I don’t ignore Flat Earthers either. (Trust me, I’ve got quite a bit of first hand experience with them, going back decades). Of course it is not going to make the Earth any less flat. Some of us are just intolerant of idiocy, that’s all. So I think it simply comes down to that not just you and me, but the people that come and post here have different reasons for why they do so and how they respond. Hey what works for you, works for you. Just don’t demand that everyone else fit your mold or behave how you see the world. We simply think differently and see things differently here and I don’t have quite the same sense of guilt on the issue of continuing to ridicule them as you do.

    US Citizen:

    G“You really need to get a better grasp of how cause and effect work. We’re a REACTIVE force here. If we laugh or comment or tell them they are crazy, it is because they DID something to EARN a response. Simple as that.”

    I don’t appreciate you implying that I don’t understand logic. Whether simple, boolean or others, I’m pretty good at it. But I’m lost on this “cause and effect.” If an input doesn’t actually change an output, it’s a null. It has no bearing on outcome.

    To me, you sound both defensive and somewhat scared. Exactly what success or empowerment do you believe we’re thwarting? If all “obots” dropped dead today, the birthers would still lose. Your attitude suggests we’re all guarding a door that has nothing to gain being opened. Whether closed or left open, what’s inside that door doesn’t change. Has ignoring flat Earthers made the Earth flat?

  52. avatar
    G May 24, 2013 at 4:55 am #

    The reason I’ve taken the time to respond to each part of your post is yes, I didn’t really grasp where you were coming from and was only too wrapped into my own perspective to (hopefully better) grasp yours, until you took the time to give such a detailed response. So yeah, it is clear I perhaps overreacted to what you said in some parts and even mischaracterized you in others. It seems we are just coming at this from different perspectives and places and that our approach and philosophy on the matter differs to some extent, that’s all.

    Unfortunately your “suggestion” came across to me (whether you intended it or not) as much more sanctimonious, shaming and “think of the poor birthers” as perhaps you realized. So it seemed “stronger” than a mere “suggestion” to try something different.

    Here you say “we” haven’t tried that yet. Which puts you in making the same mistake of using “we” as I certainly did earlier. Just to let you know, some of us (and I mean myself, although I’ve had private conversations with some others here with similar experiences) have “TRIED THAT” in our personal lives with folks of the birther mindset and that tactic hasn’t worked out for us either. Some of us are actually motivated by those personal life experiences dealing with these types of folks to keep coming back here and refuting the ones we come across even more. So no, you can’t assume that your argument has “never been tested”. Some of us have personal reasons for believing that doesn’t work either.

    Don’t sling the “guilt” crap around either. At least not in the manner of how you slung it out there. Look, I certainly wonder and second guess why I bother responding or reacting to them sometimes. How I deal with some of the nutjobs in my community and personal life and worry about whether I’ve hurt their feelings or even want to repair certain relationships or how to better handle them is something I struggle with too. I can’t say that I’ve got it figured out right – I don’t. I can say I’ve tried different things, including ignoring them and haven’t found that to be a satisfactory conclusion either. Do I grasp that many of these otherwise hateful, lying, delusional folks also have aspects of their lives where they can come across as good, decent people too…yes. So it is the crazy, nut, hate-based and birther aspects I react badly too (as I simply have little tolerance for those views and nonsense and get easily exasperated with putting up with them), but I can actually still be kind or even have normal conversations with some of these same people, when they are acting and talking “reasonable” as I personally view it. I can’t stand bullies and their entitled-victimhood mentalities either, which is how I see a lot of the birther-ish behaviors. So yeah, that aspect of what you were driving at did set me off for those reasons.

    So I’m sure I misunderstand a lot about you. As you clearly do about me as well. Which is why I’ve bothered to put in time for these responses. I still think it comes down to I don’t have a problem if you want to try to handle them differently, but maybe tone it down from expecting all the rest of us to simply behave how you plan to behave, just because you’re “done” with it.

    US Citizen:
    You seem to project a false belief upon me. I fully know they’re loudmouths. But I’m lost as to how they being loudmouths where egged on or not, makes them any more successful. My point is that they may well become LESS vocal when fewer people pay attention to them. Insulting them has obviously not work. My suggestion here is now to ignore them. We haven’t tried that yet.

    Actually, you’ve never tested my argument, so it would be hard to say I’m wrong. We have tested your argument and nothing changed. If you’re insulted, perhaps you have some deep guilt about this. Not being a psychoanalyst, I won’t try. But whether you like it or not, YOU seem to be projecting upon me and my beliefs. For example that I “play into their sense of false persecution and victimhood.”
    Nothing could be further from the truth. The truth is: I don’t care about them. They’re useless.

  53. avatar
    G May 24, 2013 at 5:11 am #

    Here, I can only respond to your “we” as from my perspective only. There is a lot more that you posted beyond this, but I’m leaving it out – only because I didn’t have anything to add in response and just wanted to say those parts were all useful for me to read to better “reset” my perspective on understanding your position. So consider my non-response to those parts as merely acceptance of your points and POV. I feel I’ve already responded enough that I’m again becoming “redundant” as you’ve already put it, so this response section is my conclusion to your reply.

    In terms of what is left that I felt you left for response, I’ll embed my personal answers to your questions in bold:

    US Citizen:
    I care about us. Not sure where you were going with that…humanity including the birthers? This website’s community? Just a non-sequitor statement?…
    Are we using them as a punching bag for other woes in our lives? NO, not a “punching bag”. Are some of us responding to birthers here, because we also deal with them and those similar to them in our own lives and communities – YES.
    Are we actually scared somehow they will succeed? NO
    Are we wasting valuable time we could be using to help good and honest people or being more productive in our respective careers? Perhaps. But that is a choice and responsibility for each of us to decide and manage on our own.

    If others want to spend their time on a venture with no benefits other than laughter, that’s up to them. that is part of the point I’m trying to convey. I realize this doesn’t appeal to you.
    I just think the aggregate value of us is worth more than the jokes at this point. The comedy has become stale because there’s few new jokes. fair points. I too see most of it as stale…and can’t explain why some of it still can make me laugh or even fascinate and not just “I’m sick of it” frustrate, but at times it does

  54. avatar
    Scientist May 24, 2013 at 6:39 am #

    G: Actually, if 5 billion people believed in birtherism, we’d have a huge problem, as society is built upon man-made laws, regardless of how the natural world operates beyond our control.

    If that 5 billion (out of 7 billion people total on Earth) were proportional within the US, Obama would never have been elected nor even have run for President.

    I keep coming back to the mythical pro-Obama birthers. I don’t believe anyone had no opinion on Obama or a favorable opinion, sat down to look at his eligibility and then decided he was ineligible. They started with dislike-whether ideological, racial or both-and looked for something to use. For some it was birth, for others it was that he was on a board with Bill Ayers (along with half the business leaders of Chicago), for our pal Drew, PhD, it was that Obama stole his girlfriend in college or something like that.

    I hesitate to even say the word Cruz from the other (now closed) thread, but I am confident that if he won the GOP nomination, the vast majority of birthers would support him, as I am confident the vast majority supported McCain. Because, while most birthers will claim they didn’t, the fact is that McCain won 90% of the same Republicans of whom 40% claim they don’t believe the President was born in the US.

    Birtherism died with Obama’s re-election, because it is of no utility any more to its users. Most have moved on to Benghazi or the IRS or whatever and as those are largely turning into non-scandals-policy differences between State and CIA on Benghazi and ordinary low-level bureaucratic mis-steps in the case of the IRS. They will fade too. According to the polls I have seen, Benghazi hasn’t even dented Hillary, so they will probably dredge up Whitewater and Vince Foster again. Ho-hum.

  55. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 24, 2013 at 9:30 am #

    At one point, the site included as its target audience folks who showed pre-birther symptoms. Its primary purpose, though, is as a resource to anyone who wants to argue, write about or understand the topic.

    That said, I have toyed with the idea of a new web site just for birthers, “BirtherMinistry.com” whose purpose would be to help birthers deal with the social conflicts that their peculiar mania creates, and perhaps help them to not be wound up so tight. One could imagine a string of articles on coping, stress reduction, communication with family and so on. Just a thought, and anybody’s free to take the idea and run with it.

    G:
    I don’t see this site as existing for the actual Birthers at all. They are delusional and set in their hate, beyond hope.

  56. avatar
    JPotter May 24, 2013 at 9:43 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I have toyed with the idea of a new web site just for birthers, “BirtherMinistry.com” whose purpose would be to help birthers deal with the social conflicts that their peculiar mania creates,

    It would be better to treat causes rather than symptoms, but in this case the causes are so fundamental. Since birthers would be very unlikely to listen, would this be a humor site?

  57. avatar
    richCares May 24, 2013 at 11:44 am #

    “BirtherMinistry.com”
    .
    try BirtherMingle.com but you need to get someone else besides Orly as a member

  58. avatar
    G May 24, 2013 at 1:32 pm #

    It would have to be. And they would never get the joke…

    JPotter: Since birthers would be very unlikely to listen, would this be a humor site?

  59. avatar
    US Citizen May 24, 2013 at 9:15 pm #

    G,

    Above you have posted a full dozen (12!) long posts one after another.
    It must be a record here.

    Where exactly did you see in what I originally wrote that pertained specifically to you?
    Why act so defensive and become so intensely and incessantly vocal?
    Except for a small minority of other members (2? 3?), you’ve literally produced an alpha and omega of posts with 12 in between.
    14 posts in total.

    Exactly what nerve did I hit in you?
    You seem to take this so personally, you’re projecting to me, exaggerating obot (or your own) significance of accomplishments or providing personal insults towards me.

    What do we do with trolls?
    We ignore them.
    Is not a birther today nothing more than a troll?
    Dictionary for “to troll”:

    3 [ trans. ] informal Computing send (an e-mail message or posting on the Internet) intended to provoke a response from the reader by containing errors.

    So I ask you. Why is it all about YOU here?
    The board is filled with intelligent people with voices.
    Why not let them offer up their opinions instead of spamming everything YOU think?

    In your book being silent means agreeing with someone who’s is wrong. Correct?
    Well if that’s so, many here may be agreeing with me.

    Again, I just don’t believe the efficacy of our actions any longer and believe poking them with a stick is no different than feeding a troll.
    Education is valuable, but few people learn when being berated.

  60. avatar
    G May 25, 2013 at 3:15 pm #

    Give it a rest. I’m certainly not a troll, although you sure are trying to be. I’ve been posting here for years and being prolific in response in nothing unusual.

    I only switched from “we” to talking about myself, because you, in your original long reply, seemed to take issue with the “we” and I saw that as a valid point and decided to only respond for myself and not try to speak for others.

    I took the time to give a long set of point by point responses, because I thought you deserved the courtesy and I was trying to understand your POV.

    Clearly that was a mistake, and whatever personal issues you’re going through, you somehow have the need to come here and start fights. First by telling us all to close up shop and leave the poor birthers alone (concern trolling), then with a long, attacking response and then with another (classic trolling). I tried to reach out, you just want to be hostile.

    I certainly have never claimed any personal “accomplishments” by being here. This is merely a hobby for me and I’ve explained what drives this as personal topic of interest. So the only one projecting here again, is you, who simply can’t accept that others have different motivations and reasons for being here. Others stay silent on silly arguments like this, because its stupid and there probably isn’t anything to add that hasn’t just been said.

    I told you, I don’t stay silent with bullies, I respond to them. You seem to have such a need to tell others they need to stay silent. When are you going to take your own advice. Stop poking sticks and you won’t get poked back.

    US Citizen:
    G,

    Above you have posted a full dozen (12!) long posts one after another.
    It must be a record here.

    Where exactly did you see in what I originally wrote that pertained specifically to you?
    Why act so defensive and become so intensely and incessantly vocal?
    Except for a small minority of other members(2? 3?), you’ve literally produced an alpha and omega of posts with 12 in between.
    14 posts in total.

    Exactly what nerve did I hit in you?
    You seem to take this so personally, you’re projecting to me, exaggerating obot (or your own) significance of accomplishments or providing personal insults towards me.

    What do we do with trolls?
    We ignore them.
    Is not a birther today nothing more than a troll?
    Dictionary for “to troll”:

    3 [ trans. ] informal Computing send (an e-mail message or posting on the Internet) intended to provoke a response from the reader by containing errors.

    So I ask you. Why is it all about YOU here?
    The board is filled with intelligent people with voices.
    Why not let them offer up their opinions instead of spamming everything YOU think?

    In your book being silent means agreeing with someone who’s is wrong. Correct?
    Well if that’s so, many here may be agreeing with me.

    Again, I just don’t believe the efficacy of our actions any longer and believe poking them with a stick is no different than feeding a troll.
    Education is valuable, but few people learn when being berated.

  61. avatar
    US Citizen May 25, 2013 at 6:19 pm #

    “I’m certainly not a troll, although you sure are trying to be.”

    Actually, neither is true.
    I’ve neither called you a troll, nor have posted with any intentions of trolling.
    Additionally, I don’t see anyone else that interpreted it as a troll.
    Why you and only you?

    “I’ve been posting here for years and being prolific in response in nothing unusual.”

    Yes, I’ve been here for years also.
    Long enough to know that I’ve never seen you write a dozen posts in a row.
    Again, what nerve did I hit in you where you have such a vocal opinion of my “troll” but few if any other members do?

    “I only switched from “we” to talking about myself, because you, in your original long reply, seemed to take issue with the “we” and I saw that as a valid point and decided to only respond for myself and not try to speak for others.”

    If that sort of explanation works for you, great.
    It makes little sense to me.
    Seems more like a backpedal.
    Perhaps it was brought on by the fact that no one is vocally supporting your POV, so you changed the “we” to “I.”

    “I took the time to give a long set of point by point responses, because I thought you deserved the courtesy and I was trying to understand your POV.”

    If that’s you showing courtesy, I’d hate to see when you’re trying to be confrontational or insulting.

    Your response is akin to someone asking their family if they’d like chicken for dinner and one member shouting “When did I say I hated beef?!”

    As for courtesy, it begins with asking clarification, not assigning meanings not stated or implied.
    If you’re unsure what someone is talking about, ask.
    It might redefine your understanding of the word “courteous.”

    Either way, you seem to be implying NOW that you were being kind and understanding, but that was not the attitude you appeared to project.

    From what I can gather, you interpreted my post as a quest for an apology or to treat birthers more kindly.
    But once again, I was asking what purpose are we (any of us) achieving at this point now?
    Is this the best use of our time, money and brains?
    Is there not some more constructive use of time we could offer other than criticizing mentally ill people?
    Don’t our own loved ones or careers deserve more time than afforded birthers at this stage of the game.
    If your answer is no, good for you.
    But again, I never even uttered your name in my first post.
    You (unlike anyone else) came out and made a dozen posts in a row.
    Me thinks you protest too much.

    “Clearly that was a mistake, and whatever personal issues you’re going through, you somehow have the need to come here and start fights. First by telling us all to close up shop and leave the poor birthers alone (concern trolling), then with a long, attacking response and then with another (classic trolling). I tried to reach out, you just want to be hostile.”

    You’re very good at projecting and assumptions.
    You’ve accused me of having personal issues and starting fights.
    Who exactly did I start a fight with?
    Did I call you out by name in my original post?
    Also, where… seriously… did I ever tell anyone here to close up shop?
    C’mon.. you’ve often accused birthers of making stuff up and not answering questions.
    Show me where I told anyone to “close up shop.”
    I feel insulted by your assumptive personal criticisms.
    I’m still looking for where you’ve been courteous though.
    Perhaps you can point it out?

    “I certainly have never claimed any personal “accomplishments” by being here. This is merely a hobby for me and I’ve explained what drives this as personal topic of interest. So the only one projecting here again, is you, who simply can’t accept that others have different motivations and reasons for being here. Others stay silent on silly arguments like this, because its stupid and there probably isn’t anything to add that hasn’t just been said.”

    Since the original post was never directed to you personally, but you did seem to answer for everyone with the “we”, perhaps you might consider that I wasn’t talking about you and your personal achievements at all.
    Again, why is this all about you?
    Why has the simple act of asking of a question been redefined in your mind as telling people what to do or demanding apologies?
    I never said those things. Why are you hearing them?
    I made a post that named no one personally and yet you seem to have taken said post very personally.

    “I told you, I don’t stay silent with bullies, I respond to them. You seem to have such a need to tell others they need to stay silent. When are you going to take your own advice. Stop poking sticks and you won’t get poked back.”

    I don’t see a lot of others poking me back.
    In fact, I don’t see any one doing so.
    For some reason you’ve taken my post very personally while few, if any others, have.
    Why is that?
    Since when is asking viable questions interpreted by you (and you alone) as being bullied?

  62. avatar
    G May 26, 2013 at 2:34 am #

    Yes, I interpreted your post that way…except it seemed a lot “pushier” in intent than your clarification here. I’m fine with your clarification and position as stated below. I said before, in what you seemingly ignored, that in general, there is validity in those types of questions and you are not alone in wondering that at times.

    For the record, yes I have done some multiple point-by-point posts in the past, in excess of what took place here, mind you. That is fine that you don’t remember them on a blog with over 175,000 posts, because this isn’t about me and you clearly aren’t even trying to listen to anything I’ve said and can’t see past how you’ve chosen to interpret my reaction to you. I’m sure I could have reacted better or conveyed myself better, I never have a problem admitting that. We clearly haven’t been on the same page on a lot of things in this little exchange. For where I’ve erred in judgment, I apologize.

    I still don’t get your whole “troll” rant in the last post, it sure seemed to imply something, but I don’t care, as this is just becoming an increasingly silly and unnecessary argument.

    For the record again, no one else has weighed in on either side of this silly argument at all. You seem to need that to mean something. I don’t think it means anything at all.

    Nor am I back peddling at all – merely wasting time trying to clarify a position to someone incapable or unwilling of even trying to get through their anger to hear any of it. You seem to take issue with the personal, yet you are very combative and keep trying to incite further personal attacks in your response. You keep mentioning some fictitious “personal achievements” that I’ve never referenced. Just clarifying the record that I really have no clue where you are coming from on any of that stuff, but since all of that is just an unnecessary fight and has nothing to do with your original points, (which I think I now grasp “properly”), there really is no need to waste further space on that.

    So in summary, I “get” what you supposedly meant now. I’m fine with it and can understand why one would question what is the purpose and the point of this anymore. I’ll treat it as a rhetorical question and philosophical food for thought on its own merit.

    I apologize for where I’ve offended you. I neither need nor want your apology at all. I hope this can be the end of this tangent, with the final result being that your clarified point below stands and all the rest of our arguments can be water under the bridge, as far as I’m concerned.

    Yes, I’m aware you are a long time poster who has contributed many interesting posts that I’ve read in the past. If you continue posting (hopefully moving beyond this mess), I look forward to reading it, and if inspires me to contribute on that point, then I hope I do a better job of grasping your meaning and responding with something topical, than the kerfuffle that happened here.

    US Citizen: From what I can gather, you interpreted my post as a quest for an apology or to treat birthers more kindly.
    But once again, I was asking what purpose are we (any of us) achieving at this point now?
    Is this the best use of our time, money and brains?
    Is there not some more constructive use of time we could offer other than criticizing mentally ill people?
    Don’t our own loved ones or careers deserve more time than afforded birthers at this stage of the game.
    If your answer is no, good for you.

  63. avatar
    US Citizen May 26, 2013 at 7:11 pm #

    Well G, I’m fine with leaving you out of the argument.
    I never put you into it in the first place.

    I was interested in what others (including you, had you not misinterpreted my post) had to say, if anything.

    Yes, it was somewhat of a rhetorical question.
    My surprise was the dozen+ personally directed accusations towards me.
    I think they were mean in spirit and made a lot of assumptions or declarations of falsehood.

    The whole exchange still comes off like someone saying “many people are murdered each day” and someone else shouting back “I didn’t murder anyone, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc (I won’t do 12, sorry.) 😉

    But your sincerity regarding apologies is diminished by statements like yours below:

    “trying to clarify a position to someone incapable or unwilling of even trying to get through their anger to hear any of it.”

    See?
    Like or not, this is projection what you’re doing above.
    It comes across like “I’m really sorry you’re crazy.”
    Either you’re apologetic having taken the time to consider the original, impersonally directed post or you’re not.

    I was not angry at any time I was writing the post, nor the replies.
    Bewildered? Yes. But angry?
    No.. that’s projection.

    For all you know I could have been sitting in a jacuzzi with a martini while beautiful maidens fed me grapes and massaged my neck, all the while listening to Beethoven’s sixth symphony. (a mostly very calm piece of music.)

    So perhaps consider that this same type of projection that is so very offensive is often what birthers do and what we do in reply.
    Making someone else angry through exaggerations or assumptions is much of a part of the whole birther phenomena.
    I thought we here were past that and depended more on sound, reasoned… factual…. replies.

    To get past making such personal assumptions takes understanding and empathy.
    Many birthers and RWNJ don’t have that capability it appears.
    But I thought we here did.
    I don’t agree with birthers at all, but I have depth enough to emphasize with them and their viewpoints.
    I’m sure you can agree that very often their viewpoints are born out of ignorance or unwillingness to accept the truth.
    Well I see the same here above.

    “yet you are very combative and keep trying to incite further personal attacks in your response. You keep mentioning some fictitious “personal achievements” that I’ve never referenced.”

    I don’t see where I’ve incited anything and would be welcome if you (or anyone else) can show where I portrayed such anger or animosity.
    I didn’t shout or call anyone names.
    I didn’t threaten anyone or even say anyone was wrong.

    Perhaps I made a mistake in wording or omitted something?
    That’s certainly possible and again I’m welcome for someone to point it out.
    I am not as smart as many of you here.
    I never graduated high school, nor went to college.
    I can often make errors in spelling, punctuation and such.

    But the spirit of my original post and my attitude when writing it was not one of anger or animosity, nor was it a concern troll or attempt to induce guilt.
    It was simply a suggestion for some of us to step back and weigh our time vs our effectiveness.
    Perhaps a reminder to ask ourselves why we’re here.
    Are we here to educate or to ridicule?
    That sort of thing.
    I’m sorry you took it personally and felt a reciprocal personal attack was warranted.

    And fwiw, I only mentioned the word “achievement” once and that in reply to you having mention accomplishments.
    Specifically, this quote of yours below which, to me anyway, suggests some form accomplishment or order of action necessary (“to accomplish”.)

    ” If anything, I’d be concerned that they would be even more dangerous, numerous and belligerent, as those mindsets assume they are right and their default position is to run roughshod with their sense of demands and entitlement, until they are opposed. More innocent people could be brainwashed or confused, if no one was there to help debunk the lies. If no one was standing up to them, they would just be further emboldened to take actions or demand actions.”

    So, maybe above yours is a goal or a dream.
    Something not realized but desired.
    If that’s so, I apologize if I characterized such actions as accomplishments or achievements.
    Apparently (and with you in agreement), we’ve not accomplished much, if anything.

    So here we can go back (once again) to my original post, this time avoiding someone projecting my intentions, mindset, mental condition, etc, so we might discuss what actual, tangible good we’ve done and are doing now.
    There will be no need to imply such falsehoods as saying I want to shut down the blog, want to apologize to birthers or any other of the projections you’ve unfairly placed upon me.
    That would be, in your own words, gracious.

    Now that this misunderstanding is hopefully behind us, perhaps others who aren’t quite so easily provoked into believing I’m writing a personal screed against them may step up and offer some insight into our actions.

    I think it’s a viable question: why do we do what we’re doing here now that the matter has been fully analyzed and decided?

  64. avatar
    Majority Will May 26, 2013 at 7:41 pm #

    US Citizen: For all you know I could have been sitting in a jacuzzi with a martini while beautiful maidens fed me grapes and massaged my neck, all the while listening to Beethoven’s sixth symphony. (a mostly very calm piece of music.)

    You too?

  65. avatar
    G May 26, 2013 at 9:38 pm #

    I think its best if we simply get the focus back on only the original point you were making as well as other topical insights you make. Clearly we both have the ability to continuously misunderstand or bewilder the other (likely due to clearly having different motives, approach and perspective to this whole issue in general) and that is unproductive. So let’s just start again from here with a clean slate and move past the unnecessary rest of it, ok? So here are, starting anew, serious replies to the topical portions, of what you just said:

    My answer to these key topical points from you is this: I think you bring up a very valid concern. It will always remain a somewhat rhetorical question, because it is philosophical in nature (what is the purpose, what is the point). I think it is a good recursive question to reflect upon, and even an individual’s answer to that may vary from time to time. Some probably have very defined purpose for why they are here and what they think it will accomplish. For others, it’s simply an observational hobby of a strange and frustrating phenomenon in the human condition. There is always more complexity to the answer than such generalities, but put me in the latter category in general. And for hobbies, effectiveness is not really a necessary factor, as it would be for purposes that are more specific and goal-oriented in nature. I mean, how “effective” is choosing to spend time watching a TV series… I also think it is ok for that answer to differ and vary greatly amongst the different contributors here (including yourself).

    In terms of education, I think there is that aspect for both historical purposes and anyone out there who simply comes across looking for answers, because they’ve heard crazy things, but otherwise don’t really follow the ins-and-outs of conspiracies and rumormongering and are simply curious to get to the truth about it. I think there will always be some of that. The hard-core birthers only want to wrap themselves in their own delusions, so there is no education that happens for them. But I do see rebuttal of falsehoods from them as always valid.

    In terms of ridicule and entertainment, I simply see those as more reactive, situational consequences to what is seen or said that someone finds laughable or ludicrous. So it happens because it is invoked, IMHO, not because it is a goal, per say. Maybe for some, it is…but that’s not how I’ve approached it.

    For all the bad that paranoid conspiracies and the ugliness of birtherism bring out, there has been and continues to be a lot of educational side effects that spring about from having a place like this. Many of us have learned and continue to learn a lot about history, the law, human nature and other cultures as a result, for example. So I see that as a positive and something that still holds value.

    In general though, many of the propagandists of Birtherism are now gone, as their goal was to smear enough controversy in hope of preventing a re-election. For any with that purpose and intent, “birtherism” is practically over. Yes, there are still hucksters out there to fleece their flock or who still think smears and muddling can lead to impeachment or whatever. But I’ve always held that all of that is folly.

    Overall, the birther movement was DOA in the first place. It is certainly past its peak now and while it will never go away totally, it will continue to fade and be replaced by other things. As that trend continues, many of assuredly will repeatedly reflect on those very same questions you posed and ask ourselves why are we here and what else could we be doing with our free time. The catch-22 of that is, by very nature of being here to respond, that means an individual has still found something of interest or value to bring them back here for that visit and commentary.

    So while the real-world facts have been fully analyzed and decided for quite some time, the phenomenon itself and ones similar to it, will always continue. And that mere continuum itself can tend to generate some level of interest, concern and at times, inexplicable entertainment.

    US Citizen:
    I was interested in what others (including you, had you not misinterpreted my post) had to say, if anything.
    Yes, it was somewhat of a rhetorical question.

    I don’t agree with birthers at all, but I have depth enough to emphasize with them and their viewpoints.
    I’m sure you can agree that very often their viewpoints are born out of ignorance or unwillingness to accept the truth.

    But the spirit of my original post and my attitude when writing it was not one of anger or animosity, nor was it a concern troll or attempt to induce guilt.
    It was simply a suggestion for some of us to step back and weigh our time vs our effectiveness.
    Perhaps a reminder to ask ourselves why we’re here.
    Are we here to educate or to ridicule?
    That sort of thing.

    I think it’s a viable question: why do we do what we’re doing here now that the matter has been fully analyzed and decided?

  66. avatar
    G May 26, 2013 at 10:11 pm #

    You also broached this, which is somewhat a separate topical question. Not a personal goal or dream per say, but simply what I simply see as a necessary condition to maintaining a stable society. The way I see it, the world will always have some extent of crazy, delusional people and it is always easier for fear and misinformation to spread. For the small percent of potentially dangerous individuals or mobs being riled up, monitoring them is good for a stable society in general. I’m a big supporter of what places like the SPLC does and to a much smaller extent, I do think places like this can have that type of benefit, when it called for. I know that in certain instances, the monitoring or reporting of certain statements led to other folks becoming aware of a possible real problem developing and led to, what I would consider a simple duty of good citizenship – notifying the authorities. Fortunately, these concerns represent only a fraction of what is mostly keyboard warrior rhetoric, but it is something that I’ve always believed requires constant vigilance to guard against in general. So I’d say there is a small tangential “accomplishment” that from time to time takes place in that regards.

    Same with the bigger concern of misinformation. No it doesn’t change reality, but lies, ignorance and fear are always a bad combination. Any form of education or rebuttal always retains value, even when repeated lies have to be repeatedly refuted. I see that more as a general principle to follow, other than a goal, as it will remain a never ending continuum, just as the grass will always need mowing.

    But mostly people (birthers, etc) look to a site like this as if it could change some real-world laws or facts and that is just silly. So in terms of Obama being eligible and serving as President, or getting re-elected, or even how court cases turn out, this site was never intended to “accomplish” affecting something like that; nor could it; nor could the myths of birtherism change such reality either. I know the birthers like to think of this as some sort of war for “changing reality” to match their delusions and therefore import such mystical bogeyman powers to a mere website like this, but it is simply a delusional argument, if you ask me.

    I simply don’t see why this site has to have any more value than simply to observe, report, entertain and allow a forum for commentary. That in and of itself defines what most blog sites simply do (and there are ones for just about every topic and interest imaginable) and I don’t see the need to pretend that they serve a purpose other than that. Blog websites are really a more passive form of communication and hobbyist nature if you ask me. If this was some sort of forum of “activism” with a purpose, then it would be framed around donations and organizing real-world demonstrations or such. It simply is not.

    So my question back to you, is how do you see this blog site and what, differently than what I’ve mentioned, have you ever expected it to “accomplish” or “achieve”?

    US Citizen:
    ” If anything, I’d be concerned that they would be even more dangerous, numerous and belligerent, as those mindsets assume they are right and their default position is to run roughshod with their sense of demands and entitlement, until they are opposed. More innocent people could be brainwashed or confused, if no one was there to help debunk the lies. If no one was standing up to them, they would just be further emboldened to take actions or demand actions.”

    So, maybe above yours is a goal or a dream. Something not realized but desired.

    If that’s so, I apologize if I characterized such actions as accomplishments or achievements.
    Apparently (and with you in agreement), we’ve not accomplished much, if anything.

  67. avatar
    misha marinsky May 27, 2013 at 3:08 am #

    US Citizen: For all you know I could have been sitting in a jacuzzi with a martini while beautiful maidens fed me grapes and massaged my neck, all the while listening to Beethoven’s sixth symphony. (a mostly very calm piece of music.)

    I prefer the Eroica.

  68. avatar
    US Citizen May 27, 2013 at 7:14 am #

    G: So my question back to you, is how do you see this blog site and what, differently than what I’ve mentioned, have you ever expected it to “accomplish” or “achieve”?

    A fair question. Thank you.

    Well for me, it started out with the same amazement many of us here probably shared when it all began.
    Many of us, myself included, get irate when someone is vocal about something obviously untrue.
    It’s rather hard to take someone seriously that maintains 2+2= 87.
    So my initial involvement was one of curiousity:
    How do they arrive at their “truths?”
    How long will they continue?
    Additionally, might they find something most others didn’t know- an unknown fact, a legal loophole or whatever.
    While I was confident of Obama’s status and facts, that didn’t remove a small amount of fear for what a group of nutcases might accomplish.

    Now, over time and with continued successes in our corner and not one success in theirs, my curious attitude has turned a bit more towards pity.
    Despite that I completely disagree with every birther argument offered, it didn’t diminish some sort of sympathy for those so hateful or blind to the facts.
    I consider that we only see a small window of these people’s lives and surely their existence which embraces such folly and hatred must have some effect upon their families, friends and careers much of the time.
    That IS pitiful.

    So much of my interest has changed from observing misinformed laymen now to lawyers and other professionals who I can’t help but believe know the truth.
    This changed my interest from observing the depths of ignorance to the following of the deliberate fleecing of birthers.

    Now I find general birthers, their statements and beliefs to be of little consequence or interest.
    We’ve heard it all before.
    But the lawyers and activists (zullo, corsi, et al) are still active and they still capture some of my interest.
    I suppose it’s their dishonest gall that gets to me now.

    As for this blog, I think it’s fine.
    I just don’t see it as having much of a future now given that most everything’s been said or tested by the law, but there’s still things discussed that I find interesting.

    I just don’t find that ridicule is the best method for education and given that many birthers couldn’t be educated if their lives depended on it, I am left with the feeling that we’re often not acting much different than they are, yet do possess the ability to be better.
    Name calling, exaggerations, projection and all that I have always believed to be their tools, not ours.
    Their issues have already been decided and thus so has ours. Obama is president.
    They can shout and sue until they’re blue in their face, but equally we can become emotional in our interactions with them and to what outcome or purpose?
    We should be better people in exchanges and provide examples without all the animosity.
    They don’t know any better. We do.

    So I just think that a board like this serves the public and furthers education fine without the need for personal attacks which I feel actually hinders things as people become defensive when called names.

    I hope I’ve answered your question.

  69. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 27, 2013 at 9:45 am #

    Thank you for your comment, a bit extracted below. It is close to my own thinking on the subject.

    “Pity” isn’t a word I like to use because of its condescending connotations. “Sympathy” too has problems because it implies support and approval. That leaves “empathy” without the implication problems. That said, I can hardly put myself in the place of birthers. I don’t talk politics with friends and family that have strongly opposite opinions, and I don’t take big financial risks for “causes”.

    I guess I look at birthers now a little like the weather. It’s just something that is there. It works according to certain principles, and sometimes it causes bad things to happen, but there’s not a lot one can do about it, particularly as an individual.

    US Citizen: So I just think that a board like this serves the public and furthers education fine without the need for personal attacks which I feel actually hinders things as people become defensive when called names.

  70. avatar
    G May 29, 2013 at 6:30 pm #

    Yep, that answers it and your response makes sense to me. Thanks!

    US Citizen: I hope I’ve answered your question.