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Crowd-sourced debunking project

Photo of large crowdDouglas Vogt filed something (not sure what to call it) with the US District Court for the Western District of Washington alleging various crimes relating to his claim that Obama’s birth certificate is a forgery. Vogt includes an Affidavit, Attachment and Exhibits that purport to demonstrate 20 marks of forgery in the President’s birth certificate. Four images of the certificate have been published: a PDF file on the White House web site, a higher-resolution image from the Associated Press, and two mobile phone camera snapshots (#1, #2) Tweeted by White House correspondent Savannah Guthrie. The last 3 are in JPG format.

I thought it would be neat to harness the power of the anti-birther community in a massively-parallel crowd-sourced debunking of Vogt’s 20 points. So pick one of his points and debunk it in a comment below. Please begin your comment with the point number and be as rigorous as you can. Readers (even birthers) may expand or critique what’s already written. If you would like an image hosted here, email it to me as an attachment to “admin@” this site’s domain and I will return a hyperlink to you.

When it’s all done, I’ll put the compilation into final form and of course add a link to the result in “The Debunker’s Guide to Obama Conspiracy Theories.”

For reference, here are the 20 points (short versions). Be sure to review the long versions in the Affidavit for more detail:

 

1. The first proof of forgery is a forged Registrar’s stamp on the Obama Certification of Live Birth (the short form or abstract) created on or before June 12, 2008;

2. The second proof of forgery is the fact that the registration date on the COLB cannot be August 8, 1961 but must be August 11, 1961;

3. The third point of forgery is the Birth Certificate number on the COLB is out of  sequence for a registration date of August 8, 1961;

4. The forth point of forgery is that there was no evidence of an embossed Hawaiian Department of Health (DOH) seal on the COLB and that NBC journalist Savannah Guthrie publicly misrepresented that fact to advance her carrier;

5. The fifth point of forgery is that the size of the COLB is wrong if it was truly a photocopy of the original;

6. The sixth point of forgery on the COLB is that the age of Barack Hussein Obama, Senior was wrong;

7. The seventh point of forgery is that the typewriter type appearance on the COLB, with holes and notches in the letters, is not what it should look like if it was a copy of a copy of an original;

8. The eighth point of forgery is the “white halo” surrounding the text on the COLBs not caused by the copier but caused by unsharp mask, a feature in Adobe Photoshop and evidence of computer manipulation;

9. The ninth point of forgery is the 150 dpi of the background color of the PDF version of the COLB where as the other layers on the PDF were 200 and 300 dpi. This is evidence of computer manipulation.

10. The tenth point of forgery is the inconsistent line spacing on the COLB which a manual typewriter would not do;

11. The eleventh point of forgery is the inconsistencies of the left-hand margins on the COLB. I compared Obama’s COLB to twelve (12) legitimate COLBs acquired from Hawaii none of them illustrated the same random left-hand margins;

12. The twelfth point of forgery is lower case letters found above the baseline – an impossibility on a manual typewriter;

13. The thirteenth point of forgery is that the word spacing on the COLB does not fit a six point grid across the entire length of the form line;

14. The fourteenth point of forgery is the inconsistent placement of the punctuation (commas) which should be in the exact same place all the time;

15. The fifteenth point of forgery is the “kerning” on the COLB is impossible to obtain with a manual typewriter;

16. The sixteenth point of forgery is that the “letter spacing” throughout the COLB is demonstrably the result of a cut and past job except for some very common words that were lifted from other COLBs;

17. The seventeenth point of forgery is that there are sixteen (16) different typewriter fonts or size differences on the COLB which is impossible if the Hospital used only one typewriter to type up Obama’s COLB;

18. The eighteenth point of forgery is that the Obama’s COLB was not perfectly flat on the glass when the forger scanned it so some of the lines are slightly curved up on the left-hand side starting from box line 7a down to about box line 13. The problem is that the typewriter line is straight but the form line below slightly curves down so we see a half to one point difference where there should be no difference;

19. The nineteenth point of forgery is the manifest errors on the Registrar’s stamp on Obama’s COLB that should not be there but was put there deliberately. The reason and significance of those errors are explained in the accompanying Sealed Affidavit of Douglas Vogt;

20. The twenty-first (sic) point of forgery is the use of “JBIG2 compression” on the PDF version of the COLB which is evidence of computer manipulation to cover-up the bad letter placement and multiple typefaces used by the forger.

113 Responses to Crowd-sourced debunking project

  1. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 28, 2013 at 1:05 pm #

    #20

    The twenty-first (sic) point of forgery is the use of “JBIG2 compression” on the PDF version of the COLB which is evidence of computer manipulation to cover-up the bad letter placement and multiple typefaces used by the forger.

    An unremarkable workflow involving scanning the birth certificate on a Xerox WorkCentre model 7655 (a model that the White House owns and has used previously in the publication of scanned documents), then opening it in Preview on a Mac computer, rotating and saving it, all with default settings, results in a document with JBIG2 compression. Something that is completely normal cannot imply forgery. One should also note that the AP images do not use JBIG2 compression, so one could hardly say that anything was actually being hidden by this compression method in the PDF version.

  2. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 28, 2013 at 1:12 pm #

    Well, birthers DO accuse us “commie obots” of being far more organized than they are.(I recall that being one of the supposed reasons Obama was able to “steal” the 2012 election) Though to be honest, its not so much a matter of being more organized than it is a lack of infighting. Birthers often turn on their own, when one birther’s fantasies don’t match another’s.

    It’d really stick in their craw if the more resourceful of us anti-birthers got together on this idea of yours, Doc.

  3. avatar
    dunstvangeet October 28, 2013 at 1:31 pm #

    I’ll start by taking #2 and #3, which is the same thing..

    #2 The second proof of forgery is the fact that the registration date on the COLB cannot be August 8, 1961 but must be August 11, 1961;

    This comes solely from the Nordyke certificates, and the asssumption that they are numbered when they are filed. However, we have several certificates numbers from August 1961 to show. Here they are:

    Johannah Ah’nee – 09945 – August 23rd, Accepted/Filed Aug. 24th – Born at Kaplionani
    Nordyke, Susan – 10637 – August 5th, Accepted/Filed Aug. 11th – Born at Kaplionai
    Nordyke, Gretchen – 10638 – August 5th, Accepted/Filed Aug. 11th – Born at Kaplionai
    Obama, Barack – 10641 – August 4th, Accepted/Filed Aug. 8th – Born at Kaplionai
    Waidelich, Stig – 10920 – August 5th/Accepted/Filed Aug. 8th – Born at Kaplionai
    Sunahara, Virginia – 11080 – August 4th, Accepted/Filed Aug. 10th – Born not at Kaplionani

    Just with these 6 birth certificates from August 1961, you can see that there is no absolute relation to the Accepted/File Date and the Sequence Number. There’s a much greater relation to the place of birth, and then last name (It’s not an absolute numbering based upon alphabetical order, because Gretchen comes after Susan, instead of the other way around).

    Just displaying the sequence numbers that we know absolutely debunks his theory.

  4. avatar
    Kiwiwriter October 28, 2013 at 1:48 pm #

    Twenty points?

    Woodrow Wilson had only 14.

    And of those, Clemenceau snorted, “God had only 10, and look how they worked out.”

  5. avatar
    dunstvangeet October 28, 2013 at 2:36 pm #

    Kikiwriter, there’s some duplicates in his points. For instance…

    Point #2 is basically, “The number is out of sequence for being accepted/filed on 8/8/2013. It should be 144 numbers lower. The fact that it’s not proves forgery.”

    Point #3 is basically, “According to the Sequence number, it should be accepted/filed on 8/11/2013. The fact that it was filed/accepted on 8/8/2013 proves forgery.”

    IT’S THE SAME EXACT POINT, just phrased a little different. I haven’t read through all of them, but I have a feeling that there’s a bunch of them that are the same.

  6. avatar
    Pastor Charmley October 28, 2013 at 2:47 pm #

    “6. The sixth point of forgery on the COLB is that the age of Barack Hussein Obama, Senior was wrong;”

    Far from being a proof of forgery, such an error would be better seen as a demonstration of authenticity. It is entirely possible (and was much more so at the time of Obama Jr’s birth) for a man to be mistaken as to his date of birth, especially a man born in a village in Kenya, thus such an error made by Obama Sr. himself would be quite plausible. On the other hand, if the certificate is a diabolically clever forgery, we should expect all such verifiable data to be completely accurate.

    And human error can affect an authentic document at least as much as a forgery, if not more so, because, again, a forger creating a document that has to stand up to any sort of scrutiny would repeatedly check his document to make sure it was correct. A digitally-created forgery would also allow any errors to be changed, whereas a hard copy created before the digital age would be far MORE likely to display such errors because once the typist has typed, the character is fixed on the certificate.

  7. avatar
    Kiwiwriter October 28, 2013 at 2:59 pm #

    dunstvangeet:
    Kikiwriter, there’s some duplicates in his points.For instance…

    Point #2 is basically, “The number is out of sequence for being accepted/filed on 8/8/2013.It should be 144 numbers lower.The fact that it’s not proves forgery.”

    Point #3 is basically, “According to the Sequence number, it should be accepted/filed on 8/11/2013.The fact that it was filed/accepted on 8/8/2013 proves forgery.”

    IT’S THE SAME EXACT POINT, just phrased a little different.I haven’t read through all of them, but I have a feeling that there’s a bunch of them that are the same.

    Reminds me of Joe McCarthy’s legendary dossiers…some of them were duplicates, too.

    Same mentality.

  8. avatar
    Joey October 28, 2013 at 3:00 pm #

    “4. The fourth point of forgery is that there was no evidence of an embossed Hawaiian
    Department of Health (DOH) seal on the COLB and that NBC journalist Savannah Guthrie publicly misrepresented that fact to advance her carrier;”

    Birthers appear to be congenitally blocked from understanding that a digitized image viewed on a computer screen is not the same thing as a hard copy, vault edition birth certificate.

    Barack Obama’s birth certificate resides in a safe in the records division of the Hawaii Department of Health and no birther has ever seen it or touched its embossed Seal.

  9. avatar
    gorefan October 28, 2013 at 3:01 pm #

    “18. The eighteenth point of forgery is that the Obama’s COLB was not perfectly flat on the glass when the forger scanned it so some of the lines are slightly curved up on the left-hand side starting from box line 7a down to about box line 13. The problem is that the typewriter line is straight but the form line below slightly curves down so we see a half to one point difference where there should be no difference”

    Nordyke BCs are also curved.

    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/dailypix/2009/Jul/28/M1139416728.GIF

  10. avatar
    gorefan October 28, 2013 at 3:02 pm #

    “11. The eleventh point of forgery is the inconsistencies of the left-hand margins on the COLB. I compared Obama’s COLB to twelve (12) legitimate COLBs acquired from Hawaii none of them illustrated the same random left-hand margins”

    Nordyke BCs

  11. avatar
    Curious George October 28, 2013 at 4:14 pm #

    Point # 21. Race of Father couldn’t be “African” because the word Negro would have been used.

    I had to throw that in because that used to be the real clincher for the BC being a 100% for real, positively genuine forgery.

    It’s absence from the list of proofs or forgery is rather telling isn’t it?

  12. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 28, 2013 at 4:22 pm #

    The answer to this one is more prosaic. Looking back at the host of documents signed by Barack Obama, Sr. in his immigration file obtained by FOIA, we see that he used two different birth years. The age on the President’s birth certificate is consistent with one of the dates.

    I have an article on it:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/05/when-was-obamas-daddy-born/

    Pastor Charmley: “6. The sixth point of forgery on the COLB is that the age of Barack Hussein Obama, Senior was wrong;”

  13. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 28, 2013 at 4:39 pm #

    #2-3 Of course Vogt claims that those out of sequence numbered certificates are fakes, put out by the forgers to cover up their use of a poorly-chosen number. Another avenue of debunking is to show that there is no presumption that they should be in birth-order sequence. In fact, numbering them in birth order is nigh impossible.

    dunstvangeet: Just displaying the sequence numbers that we know absolutely debunks his theory.

  14. avatar
    Reality Check October 28, 2013 at 4:53 pm #

    Point 9 is easily debunked.

    The ninth point of forgery is the 150 dpi of the background color of the PDF version of the COLB where as the other layers on the PDF were 200 and 300 dpi. This is evidence of computer manipulation.

    Scans from Xerox WorkCenter machines using MRC compression exhibit exactly these characteristics. The background JPG is at a lower resolution of 150 dpi while the 1 bit monochrome masks are 300 dpi. This is done to reduce the size of the file. The background layer is usually and image while the foreground layers are normally text.

  15. avatar
    gorefan October 28, 2013 at 5:05 pm #

    “4. The forth point of forgery is that there was no evidence of an embossed Hawaiian Department of Health (DOH) seal on the COLB and that NBC journalist Savannah Guthrie publicly misrepresented that fact to advance her carrier”

    IIRC, later in his affidavit he shows a picture of the seal by adjusting the contrast on the LFBC. The Guthrie photos clear show a raised seal.

  16. avatar
    gorefan October 28, 2013 at 5:34 pm #

    “10. The tenth point of forgery is the inconsistent line spacing on the COLB which a
    manual typewriter would not do”

    Actually manual typewriters do allow you to adjust the line spacing and much more.

    This 1925 Underwood Standard Portable Typewriter manual describes the “Variable Line Space Lever”

    “The Variable Line Space Lever (No. 26) makes it possible to write at any position on the paper from top to bottom. This is convenient for filling in blanks and writing on ruled paper. Adjust the machine for variable line spacing raise the lever (No. 26).”

    http://sevenels.net/typewriters/manuals/Underwood3bankManual.pdf

    This Chieftain Portable Typewriter (sold by Sears) manual describes the “Variable Line Space Cylinder Knob”

    “3. Variable Line Space Cylinder Knob – When pressed cylinder can be turned by hand to write on ruled lines or at positions that do not conform to the regular spacing of the machine. When released it creates a new line of writing from which regular line spacing takes place.”

    http://sevenels.net/typewriters/manuals/TowerChieftainManual.pdf

    Going back to the Underwood manual for a moment. There is the “Paper Release Lever”.

    “Should the paper be inserted unevenly, the Paper Release Lever (No. 12) may be raised with the index finger of the right hand. This relieves the pressure on the paper so it may be straightened.”

    I bring this up to point out that if you look at the Nordyke twins birth certificates, their names are crooked in the boxes (the last name sits higher in the box than the first name). But an entry like “Kapiolani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital” appears to be straight.

  17. avatar
    john October 28, 2013 at 5:45 pm #

    Curious George:
    Point # 21.Race of Father couldn’t be “African” because the word Negro would have been used.

    I had to throw that in because that used to be the real clincher for the BC being a 100% for real, positively genuine forgery.

    It’s absence from the list of proofs or forgery is rather telling isn’t it?

    The Race should be Kenyan. All birth certificates that I have seen from Hawaii always list a race based on country or region of origin, never by continent. Further, Obama Sr. is listed as Kenyan under race on one of his immigration docs.

  18. avatar
    gorefan October 28, 2013 at 5:46 pm #

    “12. The twelfth point of forgery is lower case letters found above the baseline – an impossibility on a manual typewriter”

    This WND article shows a 1959 Hawaii LFBC. The “o”s in Honolulu in box 7a are above the base line. One of several examples in this BC.

    http://www.wnd.com/2011/05/298537/

    This BC also has a curved left edge.

    The Nordyke twins BC also show have lower case letters that are above the baseline. For example the “it” in Maternity in box 6c.

  19. avatar
    john October 28, 2013 at 5:46 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    The answer to this one is more prosaic. Looking back at the host of documents signed by Barack Obama, Sr. in his immigration file obtained by FOIA, we see that he used two different birth years. The age on the President’s birth certificate is consistent with one of the dates.

    I have an article on it:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/05/when-was-obamas-daddy-born/

    The Age listed on the birth certificate is wrong based on the age reported by Obama Sr. on other documents during the same timeframe.

  20. avatar
    Curious George October 28, 2013 at 6:02 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: #2-3 Of course Vogt claims that those out of sequence numbered certificates are fakes, put out by the forgers to cover up their use of a poorly-chosen number.

    The out of sequence numbered certificates that Vogt would call fakes put out by the forger should give clues leading back to the alleged forger. Who provided Vogt with the certificates? Were the alleged fake certificates also provided to Corsi?

  21. avatar
    Thinker October 28, 2013 at 6:43 pm #

    The part about the race of Obama’s father being incorrect is not listed as a point of forgery, but it is mentioned on p. 32 of Vogt’s affidavit. I posted about it on the Fogbow yesterday. To support this claim, Vogt inserted a table from “CDC, Department of Vital Statistics, Instruction Manual of 1961.” The table (which is actually a table on the race of the child, not the parent) contains this footnote:

    “If the racial entry is “C” or “Col.” “Black” “Brown” or “A.A.” or “Afro-American,” and the birthplace is the United States, consider the parents’ race as Negro. If birthplace of parent is not in the United States, code as other non-white.”

    This footnote burns Vogt in two ways. First, it clearly indicates that ‘Negro’ was not the only term used to designate a black person. Second, and more importantly, it says that, for the purposes of coding the parent’s race, a black person who was not born in the United States would not be coded as Negro. He would be coded as ‘other non-white.’

    According to that footnote, foreign-born black people were not considered Negros for statistical purposes. This is what we have been speculating for years, but this is the first time I have ever seen it written down in a circa 1961 document.

    Check and mate, no?

    Curious George:
    Point # 21.Race of Father couldn’t be “African” because the word Negro would have been used.

    I had to throw that in because that used to be the real clincher for the BC being a 100% for real, positively genuine forgery.

    It’s absence from the list of proofs or forgery is rather telling isn’t it?

  22. avatar
    Curious George October 28, 2013 at 7:17 pm #

    Thinker: The part about the race of Obama’s father being incorrect is not listed as a point of forgery, but it is mentioned on p. 32 of Vogt’s affidavit. I posted about it on the Fogbow yesterday. To support this claim, Vogt inserted a table from “CDC, Department of Vital Statistics, Instruction Manual of 1961.” The table (which is actually a table on the race of the child, not the parent) contains this footnote: “If the racial entry is “C” or “Col.” “Black” “Brown” or “A.A.” or “Afro-American,” and the birthplace is the United States, consider the parents’ race as Negro. If birthplace of parent is not in the United States, code as other non-white.”This footnote burns Vogt in two ways. First, it clearly indicates that ‘Negro’ was not the only term used to designate a black person. Second, and more importantly, it says that, for the purposes of coding the parent’s race, a black person who was not born in the United States would not be coded as Negro. He would be coded as ‘other non-white.’ According to that footnote, foreign-born black people were not considered Negros for statistical purposes. This is what we have been speculating for years, but this is the first time I have ever seen it written down in a circa 1961 document.Check and mate, no?

    Check and mate, no? Absolutely yes! This was the fatal flaw of Zullo’s July 17, 2012 press conference that was alleged to show proof of forgery. He fooled many, but not those who were willing to look at the facts. Doc C shot Zullo down in flames.

  23. avatar
    Hermitian October 28, 2013 at 7:38 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Dr. Conspiracy
    October 28, 2013 at 1:05 pm Dr. Conspiracy(Quote)
    #

    #20
    The twenty-first (sic) point of forgery is the use of “JBIG2 compression” on the PDF version of the COLB which is evidence of computer manipulation to cover-up the bad letter placement and multiple typefaces used by the forger.

    An unremarkable workflow involving scanning the birth certificate on a Xerox WorkCentre model 7655 (a model that the White House owns and has used previously in the publication of scanned documents), then opening it in Preview on a Mac computer, rotating and saving it, all with default settings, results in a document with JBIG2 compression. Something that is completely normal cannot imply forgery. One should also note that the AP images do not use JBIG2 compression, so one could hardly say that anything was actually being hidden by this compression method in the PDF version.

    Both of you are wrong! There is no direct evidence that JBIG2 compression was used on the WH LFCOLB. The background layer was JPEG compression (DCTDecode). The eight 1-Bit layers were ZIP/Flate compression (FlateDecode).

  24. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 28, 2013 at 7:50 pm #

    Gorefan has done a great job dealing with some of the typewriter issues in Mr. Vogt’s filing so I’m not going to go back through them point by point but rather run through the basics of how manual typewriters work so everyone understands that there are no end of explanations and combinations of explanations for everything he finds so suspicious.

    For those of you who haven’t ever used (or, maybe, never seen a manual typewriter) take a look at this page http://www.explainthatstuff.com/typewriter.html Yes, unless you’re at least 50 or so you probably never used a manual typewriter. Youngsters don’t have any idea what they are. Kids from the local school came through the museum where I volunteered and stopped at an old Remington sitting on a desk and asked what it was. Oh my!

    So….to the picture of the typewriter on the link: Every anomaly that bothers Mr. Vogt is easily explained by the very nature of the mechanics involved in a manual typewriter:

    The type slugs are soldered on the type bars and often come loose and move up and down and as a result are out of horizontal alignment with other letters. If they come off they are resoldered and often not in the right position.

    Type slugs can also get out of vertical alignment when the type bars get bent when a bunch of keys are jammed into the key way. The semi-circular piece of metal where all the key bars are attached and the key ways can become warn causing the bar and slug to wobble when hitting the platen. Platens get grooved and hard over time and can cause some characters, especially large upper case letters, to not print properly.

    Line spacing and type spacing are prone to problems created by speed typing and general wear and tear on all those parts flying around. A spring moves the carriage after each key is struck and if the spring has lost its tension or the guide way isn’t lubricated often enough it will balk…..causing uneven spacing.

    How do I know this? Well I spent many years in the news business pounding out stories on manual typewriters and one year in the late 60’s, between jobs, I sold Royal typewriters for a living…..or tried to. Electrics were taking over the business market and it was hell competing against IBM.

    So…….the bottom line is simple: There isn’t one of the dozen or so things involving typewriters that Mr. Vogt offers up as evidence of a forgery that can’t be more plausibly explained by the basic nature of the beast and the human factor.

    Any questions let me know.

  25. avatar
    Rickey October 28, 2013 at 8:01 pm #

    According to Sally H. Jacobs, author of “The Other Barack: the Bold and Reckless Life of President Obama’s Father (2011):

    Barack Obama’s date of birth is unclear. His earliest school records bear no birth date. His University of Hawaii transcript records his birthdate as 18 June 1934. His marriage certificate and résumés indicate he was born in 1936. U.S. immigration records show his year of birth as both 1934 and 1936. Family members say they believe he was born in 1936, so I have used that date.

    Vogt cannot plausibly argue that the Obama’s father’s age is wrong on the birth certificate because Vogt does not know when Obama’s father was born. In fact, nobody knows for certain. What we do know is that he either was 25 years old or 27 years old when the President was born. The birth certificate says that he was 25, and that is consistent with what other family members told Jacobs.

  26. avatar
    John Reilly October 29, 2013 at 12:08 am #

    Let me see if I can handle this:

    Point 1: This is refuted by the fact that Hawaii verifies that Pres. Obama was born there.

    Point 2: This is refuted by the fact that Hawaii verifies that Pres. Obama was born there.

    Point 3: This is refuted by the fact that Hawaii verifies that Pres. Obama was born there.

    . . .

    Point 20: This is refuted by the fact that Hawaii verifies that Pres. Obama was born there.

    OK, you get the idea. I wouldn’t want to overstay my welcome.

    Feel free to tell Mr. Vogt that in this country, and not whatever racist planet he is from, the way we verify birth is state-by-state, and Hawaii says Pres. Obama was born there. The District Court in Washington is obligated to give full faith and credit to certification from Hawaii, which, if it came to that, would be produced. Much as I like Ms. Guthrie, we do not prove things in this country by a picture on some reporter’s iPhone. Hawaii will produce a certification, just like it did in Arizona, and that will be that.

  27. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 29, 2013 at 12:20 am #

    john: All birth certificates that I have seen from Hawaii always list a race based on country or region of origin, never by continent.

    How many Hawaiian birth certificates have you seen?

  28. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 29, 2013 at 12:26 am #

    john: The Age listed on the birth certificate is wrong based on the age reported by Obama Sr. on other documents during the same timeframe.

    How do you know which birth date is correct?

  29. avatar
    sactosintolerant October 29, 2013 at 12:50 am #

    john: The Race should be Kenyan.All birth certificates that I have seen from Hawaii always list a race based on country or region of origin, never by continent.Further, Obama Sr. is listed as Kenyan under race on one of his immigration docs.

    True… the Nordykes were from the Caucasus after all…

    And as we all know, if John doesn’t have personal knowledge of something, it’s not true… it’s a tree falling in the woods thing.

  30. avatar
    Notorial Dissent October 29, 2013 at 12:58 am #

    Aside from the utter and complete asininity of trying to claim a photocopied document is a forgery, the latest daffydavit is an absolute work of fiction. If nothing else, it shows irrefutably that Vogt hasn’t got clue one as to what a certificate is, or how it is created, and particularly one that was created back in the 60’s. The long form consists of three or four parts, the general form that the hospital started for the expectant mother, the part of it based on the information that the mother/father provided which could possibly be full of errors due to the stress or confusion of the parent at that point, little things like birth dates, birth places, etc., one of those would have been the father’s race, that was filled out by the parent, not the hospital or the registrar, they simply recorded what was given them. Thus disposeth of that claim to forgery. As to the spacing kerning, line spacing etc, obviously has never really worked around a manual typewriter, which is mostly likely what the hospital had at the time, and probably an old, out of tune, much abused typewriter(s) at that. The idea that the cert was all done at one time is equally ridiculous as well, it was probably in and out of the typewriter several times, and could very well have been any number while being processed. Anyone who has ever spent time filling out forms on a manual typewriter would laugh themselves silly at the justifications he is coming up with. Even someone very good had problems getting everything to stay lined up, and that is always assuming the form was designed for the typeface that they happened to be using, which wasn’t often the case.

    Once the affidavit was filled out and completed by everyone involved, as the hospital, the parent, and the physician all had separate and parts they had to do, then and only then would it have been sent to the local registrar, and the hospital might have only sent them once a week rather than on a per cert basis, just to keep them together, where they would have been further processed and then forwarded to the state registrar. Here Vogt fails yet again. The only thing the various registrars would have done would have been to have added the logging information required of their offices to the document, and they would not have changed anything submitted. Now here I’m guessing since I’m not familiar with HI practices, but the affidavits used by my state were on 8 1/2 x 11 in white paper, and I am assuming that HI used that standard as well. Once they were received by the state registrar they would have been logged in according to whatever the practice was at the time and stored until they were officially booked in to the system and given their accession number. A lot would probably depend upon workload and workflow as to when they were actually recorded in to the system, but as long as Aug certs were recorded in Aug, there is very little possibility of fraud happening there. They would have entered on an ongoing basis dependent upon when they were received. After they had been entered, they would have gone in to the record books and stored.

    I don’t know when HI started filming their records so it is hard to tell exactly how they handled that part of it, but the usual step is for a film copy to be made of each page in the record books and stored, and those photo records almost always show a side bulge from being filmed while in the record books as I have never seen them unbind them to film. When a copy is requested, the film for that batch is pulled, put in a copier, and that page is copied at reduced resolution to fit on the safety stock they are currently using, so the reproduced record will not be the same size as the original. I’ve gotten them that have been reduced as much as 50%. So reduction in size is also not a sign of forgery, but of having been copied and reduced to fit a page. Since the forms were white paper to begin with, with no background, when reproduced onto the safety paper, you get a clean clear(relatively) transfer. So again not a sign of forgery. The amount of edging/margins, the placement on the paper and the like is going to be entirely dependent upon the ability of the person operating the copier machine and the quality of the film record.

    The seal may or may not show up on a copy depending on how it was done. It appears that the LFBC was done with a rubber stamp, which is often hard to get a good view of.

  31. avatar
    dunstvangeet October 29, 2013 at 3:24 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    #2-3 Of course Vogt claims that those out of sequence numbered certificates are fakes, put out by the forgers to cover up their use of a poorly-chosen number. Another avenue of debunking is to show that there is no presumption that they should be in birth-order sequence. In fact, numbering them in birth order is nigh impossible.

    If you read it, it isn’t that it’s in Birth-order sequence (which some other birthers have claimed) but that they’re in filed/accepted order (which means that those accepted by the local registrar on 8/8/2013 have sequence numbers lower than the ones that are on 8/11/2013). That’s his assumption. He gives no proof that it actually the work-flow, and a simple listing of the birth certificate numbers that we know of shows that it’s not the case. In fact, a simple listing of the birth certificates shows the following probable sorting pattern:

    1. Sorted by month of birth
    2. Sorted by region (those born at Kaplioani banded together)
    3. Sorted by last name

    This gives us a pretty good sorting. The only thing that this sorting wouldn’t explain is the Susan-Gretchen thing, which can be explained by the fact that they have the same last name, and someone made a mistake on those two and didn’t bother to correct it. It makes much more sense than…

    “Out of the 6 birth certificates that we know about, 4 of them must have been forgeries because their numbers do not line up with the other two. That proves that all of them are forgeries.”

    Occum’s razor vs. a Rube Goldberg explaination.

  32. avatar
    The Magic M October 29, 2013 at 5:42 am #

    gorefan: “12. The twelfth point of forgery is lower case letters found above the baseline – an impossibility on a manual typewriter”

    That one struck me as odd, too.

    I’ve seen many typewritten documents from the ’60s and ’70s in my life (mostly from my father’s stash of documents), and if anything, I’ve seen lower case letters *above* the baseline. It wouldn’t have surprised me if *below* the baseline was somehow “impossible”, but *above* is quite a regular thing to observe.

    See for example:
    http://retrotechie.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/typewritten.jpg
    The “d” in “doesn’t” is way above the baseline (Vogt would probably claim “d” is *on* the baseline and everything else in the line is below it…).

    Or how about the “h” in “This”:
    http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lz39jp75qw1rp32b4o1_500.png

    Etc.

  33. avatar
    aarrgghh October 29, 2013 at 7:15 am #

    John Reilly: Let me see if I can handle this:

    Point 1:This is refuted by the fact that Hawaii verifies that Pres. Obama was born there.
    . . .

    Point 20:This is refuted by the fact that Hawaii verifies that Pres. Obama was born there.

    OK, you get the idea.I wouldn’t want to overstay my welcome…

    ^^^this.

    what reilly said.

    until such time when hawaii recants its official statements, all of this is just theater.

  34. avatar
    Curious George October 29, 2013 at 7:16 am #

    For items #1- #20 and my #21, the following disproves all of Mr. Vogt’s claims, John’s claims as well as Zullo’s claims:

    “I verify that the information in the copy of the Certificate of Live Birth for Mr. Obama that you attached with your request matches the original record in our files.”

    “I certify that the information contained in the vital record on file with the Department of Health was used to verify the facts of this vital event.”

    “Alvin T. Onaka, Ph. D.
    State Registrar”

    State of Hawaii, Verification of Birth, issued on May 22, 2012, to Ken Bennett, Arizona Secretary of State.

    John Reilly is absolutely correct.

  35. avatar
    Chris Borthwick October 29, 2013 at 7:34 am #

    The piece of the Birther argument I have never managed to follow is the underlying assumption of the layers forgery theory. OK, let’s assume that the BC is a fake, and that it was faked on a computer rather poorly leaving many layers that (arguendo) show it’s a fake. So far, let’s say, so good. But these evidences of deceit exist only in the computer file. All that one would have to do to remove them entirely is print the bloody thing. And then scan it in, without (arguendo!) any of these problems….. Again, speaking in my capacity as a birther, I know he did print off a copy, because I’ve attached a photo showing it. So why didn’t he scan that one to put online, eliminating, for example, item 9 above? It would have been so simple. Well, I suppose it’s the old story, they always make just one mistake…..

  36. avatar
    John Reilly October 29, 2013 at 8:11 am #

    john: The Race should be Kenyan. All birth certificates that I have seen from Hawaii always list a race based on country or region of origin, never by continent. Further, Obama Sr. is listed as Kenyan under race on one of his immigration docs.

    Ah, John is back. Making things up. My birth certificate does not list my parents (yes, both of them) as “Irish” even tough we’ve all been back there. It shows “Caucasian,” a place we’ve never been.

  37. avatar
    JPotter October 29, 2013 at 8:19 am #

    gorefan: “12. The twelfth point of forgery is lower case letters found above the baseline – an impossibility on a manual typewriter”

    You must be kidding me. This is hilarious!

    Firstly, many manual typewriters had the ability to super- and sub-script, and, even on models that failed to provide such a function, the vertical position of the paper could always be manually manipulated.

    Secondly, the variability of mechanical action. Loosens up with wear. Covered this ground many times. Look at any typewritten sample, particularly from mechanicals. Horizontal and vertical spacing varies all over the place.

    Thirdly, most deliciously of all, google “manual typewriter superscript”. You’ll get a raft of hits from 2004 regarding the “Killian Documents controversy” … in which rightwingers (including freepers!) insisted that manual typewriters offered the ability to manipulate characters vertically 😉 You’ll also turn up hits for various user manuals covering relevant features.

  38. avatar
    HistorianDude October 29, 2013 at 9:05 am #

    # 12 (Paragraph 73)

    The “dancing type” of the the birth certificate is characteristic of most if not all typed documents reduced by manual/mechanical typewriters. The “experiments” produced by Irey and Vogt are rendered moot by a simpl search on the web fro examples of typed documents all of which show the same details. For example… the very first online document I looked at has type which does the waltz, samba and macarena all on the same page:

    http://www.schulsonautographs.com/schulson/images/items/2092.jpg

  39. avatar
    HistorianDude October 29, 2013 at 9:11 am #

    john: The Age listed on the birth certificate is wrong based on the age reported by Obama Sr. on other documents during the same timeframe.

    Actually, Obama Sr. went back and forth on that age thing. Here are the dates of documents I can find that cite his birthdate or age, and what year of birth they correspond to:

    25-Sep-59 – 1934
    8-Aug-61 – 1936
    31-Aug-61 – 1934
    22-Jun-62 – 1936
    27-Jun-62 – 1934
    16-Aug-62 – 1936

  40. avatar
    Reality Check October 29, 2013 at 9:25 am #

    Hermie

    It has been explained to you several times OSx Preview saves to PDF version 1.3 that does not support JBIG2. The remnants of JBIG2 are there. Test scans on Xerox WorkCentres resaved in Preview exhibit the same replication of characters as the LFBC. The “YCbCr” comment string proves that the original scan was on a WorkCentre. WorkCentres use MRC compression with JBIG2.

    Hermitian: Both of you are wrong!There is no direct evidence that JBIG2 compression was used on the WH LFCOLB.The background layer was JPEG compression (DCTDecode).The eight 1-Bit layers were ZIP/Flate compression (FlateDecode).

  41. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 29, 2013 at 9:25 am #

    john: The Race should be Kenyan.

    You’re confusing nationality with race. There is no such thing as the Kenyan race. That would be like me putting down “Missourian” instead of “Caucasian”.

  42. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 29, 2013 at 9:27 am #

    You point out that a simple print and scan would eliminate the layers, so why not do that.

    But seriously, if someone actually wanted to fake a birth certificate, they could, using a program, lift all the black from an authentic certificate and remove all of the handwritten and typed information, and print the resulting “blank form.” This takes no skill at all. Then get a real typewriter from the 60’s (they go cheap) and type up the certificate into the blank form. Get a real forger to fake the signatures. Vogt is saying Hawaii is in on the deal, so getting security paper is simple. Then all a forger has to do is copy the result onto security paper. The ONLY thing that has to be manually composed is the certificate number or with a little effort, find a compatible numbering machine and stamp it with whatever number is needed. Then borrow a raised seal from Hawaii or have one made up.

    But birther certificate critics have some up with this incredibly complex and tedious process to make a certificate that is full of anomalies.

    In the context of a massive conspiracy involving the State of Hawaii, you can almost get to the possibility that the birth certificate is a fake (you still have newspaper announcements and state department documents from 1961 to deal with), but the PDF analysis from the birthers doesn’t work even in that scenario.

    Chris Borthwick: The piece of the Birther argument I have never managed to follow is the underlying assumption of the layers forgery theory.

  43. avatar
    Kiwiwriter October 29, 2013 at 9:43 am #

    john: The Age listed on the birth certificate is wrong based on the age reported by Obama Sr. on other documents during the same timeframe.

    John, what happened when you wrote to the National Park Service about being allowed to dig for treasure at Arlington National Cemetery?

    Did you go, with shovel and metal detector in hand? Who knows? You might find Captain Kidd’s doubloons, Robert E. Lee’s manacles for his slaves, Jimmy Hoffa’s body, or President Obama’s birth certificate.

    Still eagerly awaiting your report on how that worked out, Skippy.

    And about the nap at the Vietnam Veterans’ Memorial. You and the other homeless people, dementedly raving about CIA conspiracies and the Tri-Lateralists…sounds like a good place for you.

  44. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 29, 2013 at 9:45 am #

    How about this from Jerome Corsi’s PhD Thesis?

    There are also examples of lower case letters below the line.

    The Magic M: I’ve seen many typewritten documents from the ’60s and ’70s in my life (mostly from my father’s stash of documents), and if anything, I’ve seen lower case letters *above* the baseline. It wouldn’t have surprised me if *below* the baseline was somehow “impossible”, but *above* is quite a regular thing to observe.

  45. avatar
    john October 29, 2013 at 9:45 am #

    Obama Sr. went by the 1934 date on all documents around the time of Obama Jr. Birth. That’s why it the the age is out of place on Obama’s birth certificate. It should be 27 not 25. The 1936 date started appearing about a year after Obama was born.

  46. avatar
    JPotter October 29, 2013 at 9:58 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Vogt is saying Hawaii is in on the deal,

    Imagining the fine folks down in Hawaii, digging up all their early ’60s equipment for the purposes of whipping up an “authentic”, one-off, custom, fictitious LFBC for a sitting Pres.

    Of course, being thoroughly corrupt, Hawaii would be maintaining a special forgery room, which would resemble a vital records museum: separate workstations for each era’s equipment, stacks of each revision of every form, all ready to go.

    It’s all very ’70s conspiracy/disaster flick. Something starring Burt Lancaster …. like Executive Action, Twilight’s Last Gleaming, etc.

  47. avatar
    The Magic M October 29, 2013 at 10:33 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: But birther certificate critics have some up with this incredibly complex and tedious process to make a certificate that is full of anomalies.

    Once they were willing to believe the contrived back story required for the “born in Kenya” narrative to add up, they were primed to believe just about any complex explanation for anything.

    The real explanation is that it’s another example of the evolution of a specific conspiracy theory that is never willing nor able to change any of its premises. And since it started out with “Obama personally forged his BC on the eve of its release”, they are stuck with the “amateurish forgery” committed by the “almighty conspiracy” – because it’s so much easier to first create a terrible forgery and then coerce Congress plus all courts to accept it than to create a good forgery in the first place. *facepalm*

  48. avatar
    Benji Franklin October 29, 2013 at 11:06 am #

    Curious George: For items #1- #20 and my #21, the following disproves all of Mr. Vogt’s claims, John’s claims as well as Zullo’s claims:

    “I verify that the information in the copy of the Certificate of Live Birth for Mr. Obama that you attached with your request matches the original record in our files.”

    “I certify that the information contained in the vital record on file with the Department of Health was used to verify the facts of this vital event.”

    “Alvin T. Onaka, Ph. D.
    State Registrar”

    Ah, but that doesn’t debunk the #22 point of forgery which, BY ITSELF, is the real Birfer absolute, complete, and irrefutable proof that Obama forged the BC’s; he is HALF, but at the same time, TERRIBLY black.

  49. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 29, 2013 at 11:33 am #

    No, it started appearing around the time Obama was born — on his birth certificate. Duh. You can’t throw the evidence in order to discredit it.

    john: The 1936 date started appearing about a year after Obama was born.

  50. avatar
    JimmyJam October 29, 2013 at 12:19 pm #

    Benji Franklin: Ah, but that doesn’t debunk the #22 point of forgery which, BY ITSELF, is the real Birfer absolute, complete, and irrefutableproof that Obama forged the BC’s; he is HALF, but at the same time, TERRIBLY black.

    There are alot of birthers who don’t believe that Barack Obama is black. Just the other day I was lurking at Freerepublic.com and a birther repeated the meme that the President is really 1/2 Arab and 1/2 white . To some of them, making him faux-black is just another one of the many deceptions, according to many birthers.
    Its much worse to be Arab, to them, than to be black, after all, they LOVE black right wing conservatives like Allan West. That’s the cover for their inherent racism.

  51. avatar
    gorefan October 29, 2013 at 12:28 pm #

    CarlOrcas:

    The Magic M: It wouldn’t have surprised me if *below* the baseline was somehow “impossible”,

    Dr. Conspiracy: There are also examples of lower case letters below the line.

    This typewriter forum discusses the issue of misaligned letters.

    http://typewriter.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=176

  52. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 29, 2013 at 12:59 pm #

    gorefan: This typewriter forum discusses the issue of misaligned letters.

    http://typewriter.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=176

    Didn’t realize there were so many people interested in manual typewriters but, as the forum demonstrates, the reasons for the anomalies Mr. Vogt sees as signs of forgery are easily explained and virtually endless.

    Side-note: Before I wrote my post I read most of his filing and and I was stunned at the inanity of it. At first blush you just assume it’s more birther silliness but once you get into it it’s painful to read……stupid beyond description.

  53. avatar
    JPotter October 29, 2013 at 1:28 pm #

    gorefan: This typewriter forum discusses the issue of misaligned letters.

    “Misaligned” typewritten characters were normal as can be back in ’04, when Bush’s service papers were being over-analyzed (Killian papers, Rathergate, whatever it was). Somehow, by 2011, they became a complete impossibility LOL

  54. avatar
    Rickey October 29, 2013 at 1:29 pm #

    john: The Race should be Kenyan.All birth certificates that I have seen from Hawaii always list a race based on country or region of origin, never by continent.

    “Kenyan” is a nationality, not a race. Have you seen the Hawaii birth certificate which WND posted? It lists the race of both parents as “caucasian.” According to you, that means that their region of origin was Caucasus. Do you even know where Caucasus is, John?

    http://www.wnd.com/2011/05/298537/

  55. avatar
    Rickey October 29, 2013 at 1:38 pm #

    JimmyJam: There are alot of birthers who don’t believe that Barack Obama is black. Just the other day I was lurking at Freerepublic.com and a birther repeated the meme that the President is really 1/2 Arab and 1/2 white . To some of them, making him faux-black is just another one of the many deceptions, according to many birthers.
    Its much worse to be Arab, to them, than to be black, after all, they LOVE black right wing conservatives like Allan West. That’s the cover for their inherent racism.

    And if they can convince themselves that Obama is half Arab and half white, they can deny that we have a black President.

  56. avatar
    JimmyJam October 29, 2013 at 1:52 pm #

    john:
    Obama Sr. went by the 1934 date on all documents around the time of Obama Jr. Birth.That’s why it the the age is out of place on Obama’s birth certificate.It should be 27 not 25.The 1936 date started appearing about a year after Obama was born.

    My mother was born on a rural farm in Virginia. She has never had a birth certificate. The only official proof of her birth is a US Census statement from 1920 saying that there was a one and a half year old baby in the residence. That is my mother. She did the arithmetic incorrectly and has always given her birthdate as 1919 when she was probably born in 1918, if the census estimate is correct. In rural third world Africa, in the 1930’s precision of recordkeeping was not a priority, survival was.

  57. avatar
    Joey October 29, 2013 at 2:04 pm #

    john: The Race should be Kenyan.All birth certificates that I have seen from Hawaii always list a race based on country or region of origin, never by continent.Further, Obama Sr. is listed as Kenyan under race on one of his immigration docs.

    http://www.kerchner.com/images/protectourliberty/alanbooth1981hawaiianlongformbc.jpg

  58. avatar
    Joey October 29, 2013 at 2:20 pm #

    I wonder if “Birther Queen” Miki Booth’s son’s birth certificate (signed by the same attending physician as Barack Obama’s) meets the John standard for racial designations: Caucasian-Japanese and Caucasian-Hawaiian.
    http://www.kerchner.com/images/protectourliberty/alanbooth1981hawaiianlongformbc.jpg

    Way back in 2008, the racial designation question was addressed by Hawaii Department of Health spokesperson Kurt Tsue when factcheck.org inquired about the use of the term “African.”
    Mr. Tsue responded: “We accept what the parents self-identify themselves to be.”
    http://www.factcheck.org/2008/08/born-in-the-usa/

  59. avatar
    Curious George October 29, 2013 at 2:44 pm #

    Joey,
    “I wonder if “Birther Queen” Miki Booth’s son’s birth certificate (signed by the same attending physician as Barack Obama’s) meets the John standard for racial designations: Caucasian-Japanese and Caucasian-Hawaiian.”

    The link shows the birth certificate but fails to give the BC number. John certainly would accept a BC without the complete file number. What would Mr. Vogt think? Why is the BC number hidden? Is there a problem? Is it legit?

  60. avatar
    jdkinpa October 29, 2013 at 2:52 pm #

    Joey,

    Way back in 2008, the racial designation question was addressed by Hawaii Department of Health spokesperson Kurt Tsue when factcheck.org inquired about the use of the term “African.”
    Mr. Tsue responded: “We accept what the parents self-identify themselves to be.”
    http://www.factcheck.org/2008/08/born-in-the-usa/

    Sorry old buddy, in birfer world factcheck.org isn’t a legit source for ANYTHING. It’s ran by Geroge Soros and his minions.

  61. avatar
    Joey October 29, 2013 at 3:04 pm #

    jdkinpa:
    Joey,

    Way back in 2008, the racial designation question was addressed by Hawaii Department of Health spokesperson Kurt Tsue when factcheck.org inquired about the use of the term “African.”
    Mr. Tsue responded: “We accept what the parents self-identify themselves to be.”
    http://www.factcheck.org/2008/08/born-in-the-usa/

    Sorry old buddy, in birfer world factcheck.org isn’t a legit source for ANYTHING.It’s ran by Geroge Soros and his minions.

    Yeah but Kurt Tsue is alive, well and still living in Hawaii. He can confirm his statement for any birther who needs a first person confirmation! 😉

  62. avatar
    Keith October 29, 2013 at 8:52 pm #

    HistorianDude:
    # 12 (Paragraph 73)

    The “dancing type” of the the birth certificate is characteristic of most if not all typed documents reduced by manual/mechanical typewriters. The “experiments” produced by Irey and Vogt are rendered moot by a simpl search on the web fro examples of typed documents all of which show the same details. For example… the very first online document I looked at has type which does the waltz, samba and macarena all on the same page:

    http://www.schulsonautographs.com/schulson/images/items/2092.jpg

    And look at the date stamp!

    What month is EEB? And why is the first E so faint?

    That has GOT to be a forgery!

  63. avatar
    Joey October 29, 2013 at 9:01 pm #

    john: The Race should be Kenyan.All birth certificates that I have seen from Hawaii always list a race based on country or region of origin, never by continent.Further, Obama Sr. is listed as Kenyan under race on one of his immigration docs.

    “Asian” is a preferred designator for one of the races. Is ASIA a country or a region? Why no, it’s a CONTINENT.

  64. avatar
    Hermitian October 29, 2013 at 11:00 pm #

    Reality Check: Hermie
    It has been explained to you several times OSx Preview saves to PDF version 1.3 that does not support JBIG2. The remnants of JBIG2 are there. Test scans on Xerox WorkCentres resaved in Preview exhibit the same replication of characters as the LFBC. The “YCbCr” comment string proves that the original scan was on a WorkCentre. WorkCentres use MRC compression with JBIG2.

    Please post your evidenced (derived solely from the WH LFCOLB PDF archive copy) that proves your claim that JBIG2 compression was utilized in the creation of the PDF image file.

    Your claim that JBIG2 was applied rests entirely on your claim that a Xerox Workcenter was used to scan one of the two certified copies that Obama requested and received from the HDOH on 04/25/2013.

    Neither you nor NBC have adequately explained away the two new object types that are found in Xerox scans that are not found in the WH LFCOLB PDF image. Nor have either of you adequately explained how the Xerox selects the color space and color values for each type of layer observed in the Xerox scanned images.

    And then there’s the problem that the Xerox must be able to detect an imperfect pattern of repeating elements and then correct the imperfections by constructing and replacing missing elements.

    And then there’s the problem that your assumed work flow involves two machines and two operators. One operator has to feed the original upside-down and in landscape orientation and the other must rotate the image in Preview. This fairy tale is like all the other weird stuff that follows Obama every where he goes.

  65. avatar
    justlw October 29, 2013 at 11:01 pm #

    This was our family typewriter when I was a kid:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Olivetti_Lettera_32_%282%29.jpg

    I guess if you didn’t grow up playing with one of these, you have no idea what wonderful but cantankerous creatures they were, and you might be able to fool yourself into thinking that mechanical glitches were “proof of forgery”.

    On the other hand, those who think there’s any way a sitting president would just make crap up about his birth certificate — and not immediately be tripped up by people who aren’t intartube keyboard warriors — aren’t exactly on a rigorous search for reality.

  66. avatar
    justlw October 29, 2013 at 11:07 pm #

    Curious George: For items #1- #20

    You mean “items #1-#19, and item #21.”

    The missing item #20 is irrefutable proof that this whatever-it-is of Vogt’s is a forgery.

  67. avatar
    Daniel October 30, 2013 at 12:41 am #

    Hermitian: Please post your evidenced (derived solely from the WH LFCOLB PDF archive copy) that proves your claim that JBIG2 compression was utilized in the creation of the PDF image file.

    You really are friggin’ dense aren’t you.

    Here, I’ll try to explain it to you again, and to make sure you have every opportunity to understand, even with your diminished mental capacity, I’ll type slow, and use small words.

    Nobody has to prove that the WH BC Pdf was produced that way. Did you get that now? That’s right. How, or on what machine, that pdf was created, is irrelevant. Sorry, that big word “irrelevant” mean “not important”.

    You see THE CCCP made the claim that it was impossible for the PDF to be a copy of the original, a paper document. That’s the claim that is being debunked. Sorry, that big word “debunked” means “shown to be false”. So it’s not at all necessary fo anyone to show how the PDF actually was made. All that anyone needs to do to show the CCCP is wrong, is to show that it IS POSSIBLE for it to be a copy of a paper document.

    Are you getting this now? Is it starting to seep through that birther skull plating? No one has to prove the BC was made in any way at all. All they have to do is show that Zullo’s ridiculous (that means stupid) claim is false; that what he says is impossible, is, in fact, possible.

    Now I realize it might take a day or two and a dozen slow reading for you to understand what I’ve written here, but please do try. While we have quite enjoyed making a complete fool of you, it’s becoming tedious (that means boring).

  68. avatar
    nbc October 30, 2013 at 1:13 am #

    Hermitian: Please post your evidenced (derived solely from the WH LFCOLB PDF archive copy) that proves your claim that JBIG2 compression was utilized in the creation of the PDF image file.

    It’s simple really.

    1. One observes identical objects in the PDF file which was converted by Preview
    2. The most obvious explanation is JBIG2 compression but independent evidence of such was lacking
    3. The fact that we now have linked the PDF to a Xerox work Centre, trivially explains these artifacts.

    It’s called a coherent and consistent explanation.

    But I am sure the logic may have escaped you.

    Still upset that we showed you wrong so many times… Still struggling to debunk my findings I notice.

    Not holding my breath really but I do appreciate how your contributions have led to the final nail in the coffin of the CCP’s PDF forgery argument.

    You’re the best and perhaps history will be kind to you and remember you for your minor contributions, the alternative is that your musings will be lost to posterity.

    Logic, data and reason… essential tools that you still appear to need to develop. Good luck my friend.

  69. avatar
    nbc October 30, 2013 at 1:13 am #

    Reality Check: It has been explained to you several times OSx Preview saves to PDF version 1.3 that does not support JBIG2. The remnants of JBIG2 are there. Test scans on Xerox WorkCentres resaved in Preview exhibit the same replication of characters as the LFBC. The “YCbCr” comment string proves that the original scan was on a WorkCentre. WorkCentres use MRC compression with JBIG2.

    Let’s not confuse Hermitian with consistent evidence, he’d rather play in areas of ignorance…

  70. avatar
    Hermitian October 30, 2013 at 7:38 am #

    nbc: 2. The most obvious explanation is JBIG2 compression but independent evidence of such was lacking

    My point exactly. So you’ve got nothing.

  71. avatar
    Reality Check October 30, 2013 at 8:44 am #

    Hermie needs to explain how the “YCbCr” comment string ended up in the WH LFBC PDF and in every color scan from a Xerox WorkCentre. There are really only two possible explanations:

    !. The original scan on the WH LFBC was on a Xerox
    2. The “forger” was so clever that he knew that Xerox embeds this comment string in the JPG layer so she put it in there to fool anyone investigating the origin of the PDF.

    The former requires nothing more than a simple work flow. The latter requires a vivid imagination.

  72. avatar
    SueDB October 30, 2013 at 10:45 am #

    Can’t wait for the circus to come to Seattle.

  73. avatar
    gorefan October 30, 2013 at 11:46 am #

    CarlOrcas: Didn’t realize there were so many people interested in manual typewriters but, as the forum demonstrates, the reasons for the anomalies Mr. Vogt sees as signs of forgery are easily explained and virtually endless.

    Here is an explanation on how to adjust out of alignment letters for some typewriters..

    http://munk.org/typecast/2013/08/01/typewriter-repair-101-adjusting-vertical-typeface-alignment-carriage-shift-typewriters/

    And on other types:

    http://munk.org/typecast/2013/07/30/typewriter-repair-101-adjusting-vertical-typeface-alignment-segmentbasket-shift-typewriters/

  74. avatar
    JPotter October 30, 2013 at 11:57 am #

    Daniel: bad marky things

    And “bad marky things” not so bad after all, just things. Not so skeery.

  75. avatar
    Curious George October 30, 2013 at 12:19 pm #

    Daniel: OK I tried to dumb it down to where you could understand, but apprently I didn’t dumb it down quite enough. Let me try again.Zullo say WHPDF is not real. Has bad marky things. Bad marky things can’t happen with any photocopier at all. This prove that WHPDF not realSmart people say. Look Zullo, here is photocopier that does make happen bad marky things you say that no photocopier can. You wrong. Your proof wrong. Try again loser.There. does that make more sense to you now Hermi?

    Too funny! Don’t ya feel like you’re hitting your head against a brick wall when it comes to Birfers?

  76. avatar
    Curious George October 30, 2013 at 12:26 pm #

    SueDB: Can’t wait for the circus to come to Seattle.

    The Seattle media will have a feeding frenzy over this.

  77. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 30, 2013 at 3:24 pm #

    gorefan: This typewriter forum discusses the issue of misaligned letters.

    Thanks. This just further demonstrates the complexity and infinite variables involved in manual typewriters.

  78. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 30, 2013 at 4:59 pm #

    I’ve allowed Hermitian to comment on this thread, since it was an open invitation for critique of the crowd sourced debunking. However, I have started deleting his comments that do not reference Vogt’s 20 points, and replies to those comments.

  79. avatar
    Reality Check October 30, 2013 at 5:03 pm #

    Don’t get Hermie started on his skewed, deluded, and plain wrong ideas on birth certificates. You will be sorry you asked.

  80. avatar
    Kiwiwriter October 30, 2013 at 5:11 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I’ve allowed Hermitian to comment on this thread, since it was an open invitation for critique of the crowd sourced debunking. However, I have started deleting his comments that do not reference Vogt’s 20 points, and replies to those comments.

    My advice to Col. Henry Blake aka “Hermitian,” is as follows:

    If you think Obama committed forgery in Hawaii, don’t waste our time and yours, whining about it on the Internet.

    Get out from your basement, pack up your kit, go to Hawaii, find a County Prosecutor’s office there, and swear out a warrant for fraud and conspiracy.

    Quit expecting OTHER PEOPLE to do YOUR work.

  81. avatar
    nbc October 30, 2013 at 7:49 pm #

    Hermitian: My point exactly. So you’ve got nothing.

    I can appreciate that you do not understand how research works, so let me try again. A xerox workflow explains, amongst many other factors, the presence of identical characters.

    You have no clue as to what it takes to do research now do you, how you form hypotheses and how you go about all this.

    Which explains why you did such a poor job in your other ‘examples’, including your court submission… Good thing that you will never be called to defend it… Lucky Hermie…

  82. avatar
    john October 31, 2013 at 3:36 am #

    Obama Birth Certificate Error/Inconsistency Deepens

    You have heard me discuss the Dr. David Sinclair Signature error/inconsistency. Dr. David Sinclair signed both Obama’s and Miki Booth’s birth certificate. On Miki Booth’s birth certificate Dr. Sinclair adds the “MD” title designation after his name but on Obama’s birth certificate, the “MD” title designation is absent. Obots simply claim that that since the MD check box is filled in, it would have been redundant or unnecessary for Dr. Sinclair to add the “MD” title designation after his name. However, other birth certificates around the same time period show different doctors adding their “MD” title designation even though the MD check box is filled in.

    It now appears this error or inconsitency has deepened. Many will recall that Mike Zullo had interviewed or spoken to Verna K Lee, the Hawaii state registar who actually signed Obama’s birth certificate. Verner K Lee indicated to Mike Zullo that she maintained a tight watch over the birth certificates she signed and that birth certificates were doubled check for data consistency. I have examined 2 birth certificates signed by Verna K Lee of the same time period other than Obama’s birth certificate. You can see the 2 birth certificates at the following links: http://obamabc.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/pdf-text-fails-grid-test.jpg & http://passportsusa.com/wp-content/gallery/passportusa/edith_front.jpg.

    Take note of the doctor signatures on each birth certificate. You will note 2 things. Both doctors (Not Dr. Sinclair) have added the “MD” title designation after their signatures even though the MD check box is filled in. Further, you will notice at each doctor’s signature has been typed out.

    You will also note that each birth certificate has been signed by Verna K Lee.

    Obama’s birth certificate does not have Dr. Sinclair’s signature typed out.

    I would have to examine more Verna K Lees birth certificate to see if this is a conclusive characteristic of the birth certificates she signs. But, you will also note that hospital is not Kaopoloni hospital so this could be a different hospital policy.

    In any event, the error or inconsitency deepens. Obots may point that the Nordyke birth certificate does not show this characteristic (Dr. signatures typed out) but Nordyke’s birth certificate was not signed by Verna K Lee. Again this could different hospital policy but it is interesting to note.

  83. avatar
    Hermitian October 31, 2013 at 8:28 am #

    nbc: Hermitian: My point exactly. So you’ve got nothing.
    I can appreciate that you do not understand how research works, so let me try again. A xerox workflow explains, amongst many other factors, the presence of identical characters.
    You have no clue as to what it takes to do research now do you, how you form hypotheses and how you go about all this.
    Which explains why you did such a poor job in your other ‘examples’, including your court submission… Good thing that you will never be called to defend it… Lucky Hermie…

    Spoken by a clueless Obot to a guy who has done basic research for 50 years.

    In case you never noticed, true researchers don’t cherry pick their data. They have to put it all out there like I have done and THEN defend it all. You don’t get any re-dos on experiments that yield results that don’t fit your hypothesis. Like the two new types of objects that are found in the Xerox scanned images that are not found in the WH LFCOLB PDF image. Both of these new object types require image manipulations that are beyond the capabilities of MRC compression.

    And the fact that the Preview massaged Xerox scans which were cropped don’t have a clipping mask that defines the boundary of the Green basket-weave background — said clipping mask also clipping the white speckle object nine in the WH LFCOLB.

    And the Xerox images don’t exhibit the minimum page size consistent with a nominal 8-1/2 in. x 11 in. page dimensions and 16 Mod 0 condition on the dimensions of the text layer and 8 Mod 0 for all layers including the background layer.

    And then there is your fundamental lack of knowledge of digital images in general —such as not knowing the difference between printer/scanner resolutions in DPI versus bitmap images in PPI. And knowing the difference between a JPEG compression standard versus a JFIF file format standard.

    And most importantly — knowing the difference between a high-quality image and just another crappy one.

    A true scientist reports the failed experiments along with the successful ones.

    For example, medical researchers conducting trials on a new cancer drug also report the number of patients who died while taking the drug under test — not just the ones who lived.

    Edison conducted hundreds of failed experiments in his search for the right materials for the filament and atmosphere for his incandescent light bulb before he selected Carbon for the filament and vacuum for the atmosphere. But he reported the results of all of his trials.

    http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bledison.htm#Lightbulb

    “After one and a half years of work, success was achieved when an incandescent lamp with a filament of carbonized sewing thread burned for thirteen and a half hours.”

    Heck ! Even with all the countless Xerox scans that you and your sidekicks KVC and RC have collectively done using your various Xerox toys you still can’t cherry pick any PDF images which have the right stuff.

  84. avatar
    Curious George October 31, 2013 at 10:00 am #

    John, “It now appears this error or inconsitency has deepened.”

    The only thing that has deepened is your irrational support for Private Zullo and his misguided Klown Kar Posse. Let’s face it John, it’s over. Mr. Obama is President. The state of Hawaii verified he was born in Hawaii and all of the details on his PDF copy of his birth certificate have also been verified by the state of Hawaii. Game over.

  85. avatar
    Curious George October 31, 2013 at 10:13 am #

    Hermi, “Heck ! Even with all the countless Xerox scans that you and your sidekicks KVC and RC have collectively done using your various Xerox toys you still can’t cherry pick any PDF images which have the right stuff.”

    Let’s pick only one PDF copy of the Obama birth certificate that has “the right stuff.” You know the one. It’s posted on the White House website. All the details on that PDF copy have been verified by the state of Hawaii. Unless you can prove in a court of law or through a Congressional investigation that the state of Hawaii is involved in fraud, your effort is in vain. But, keep asking for those financial donations. There still are some Birfer fools out there that may throw some more money in your direction.

  86. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater October 31, 2013 at 10:39 am #

    john: You have heard me discuss the Dr. David Sinclair Signature error/inconsistency. Dr. David Sinclair signed both Obama’s and Miki Booth’s birth certificate. On Miki Booth’s birth certificate Dr. Sinclair adds the “MD” title designation after his name but on Obama’s birth certificate, the “MD” title designation is absent. Obots simply claim that that since the MD check box is filled in, it would have been redundant or unnecessary for Dr. Sinclair to add the “MD” title designation after his name. However, other birth certificates around the same time period show different doctors adding their “MD” title designation even though the MD check box is filled in.

    Other certificates? You’ve seen one use an MD title. The nordyke certificates which birthers hold up as being accurate don’t have an MD in their signature. There is no inconsistency not every doctor adds an MD to their signature every single time. So you just lied again. “However, other birth certificates around the same time period show different doctors adding their “MD” title designation even though the MD check box is filled in”

    Using your logic the Nordyke certificates prove your claims wrong

  87. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater October 31, 2013 at 10:40 am #

    Hermitian: In case you never noticed, true researchers don’t cherry pick their data

    How can you say this with a straight face? Birthers consistently cherry pick their data to fit their conclusion. You’ve done it repeatedly.

  88. avatar
    The Magic M October 31, 2013 at 11:28 am #

    john: However, other birth certificates around the same time period show different doctors adding their “MD” title designation even though the MD check box is filled in.

    How are other doctors relevant to how Dr Sinclair writes his signature?
    You have now reached Lucas Smith levels of arguing, as in “because this US diploma misspells a word, my Kenyan BC where the signer misspells his own name is legit”.
    Who knows, maybe you just gave us a preview of the “quality” of the ominous Hayes report – “this doctor does not write an MD, every doctor writes an MD, it’s a forrrrrgggggggggeeeeyyyy!”

  89. avatar
    nbc October 31, 2013 at 12:01 pm #

    Hermitian: Spoken by a clueless Obot to a guy who has done basic research for 50 years.

    In case you never noticed, true researchers don’t cherry pick their data. They have to put it all out there like I have done and THEN defend it all.

    Exactly, although I do not believe that I have mistaken you for an obot.

    I have NOT cherry picked data, and I have laid it all out for other researchers to repeat. But somehow, some wannabees are totally unable to do the simple few steps that are necessary.

    I have shown how ALL data are totally consistent with the evidence and that there is NO data which contradicts the evidence.

    As to cherry picking, your refusal to accept the full picture is quite telling.

    You have failed to show yourself to be much of a researcher when it comes to this area.
    It’s a simple observation

    As with Edison, I have reported also the data that appeared to contradict my findings, such as the Quantization Tables.

    But I have provided those interested with all the necessary tools and steps to repeat my findings.

    It’s quite telling how noone other than RC, and I have reported on this…

  90. avatar
    Benji Franklin October 31, 2013 at 1:01 pm #

    john: In any event, the error or inconsitency deepens. …. Again this could different hospital policy but it is interesting to note.

    No, John. Your inability to spell “inconsistency” may yet deepen, but your cynical and tortuous interpretation of commonly varying events and records, always to cast doubt on Obama’s eligibility or to besmirch him in some fashion, don’t accumulate for sane people into a stronger and stronger likelihood that he is an Usurper, or that the posted likeness of his Birth Certificate, showing vital information confirmed as correct by the appropriate Hawaiian officials, is in any criminal sense, a fraud-supporting forgery.

    Birfers like you, don’t apply such crazy reasoning in their attempts to make sense out of other aspects of existence.

    If you did, you’d be claiming things like, the more people who can recognize the constellation “Pegasus”, the more certain it becomes that that constellation is actually a living winged horse.

    And then you’d say about that impossible theory, “Of course, this image could just be a figment of my imagination, psychologically mapping a complex, albeit mythical creature’s image onto a handful of unrelated and astronomically scattered stars as juxtapositionally viewed along a line-of-sight originating here on Earth, BUT it’s a REAL possibility and therefore, “interesting to note”.

    Let me give you an example of the kind of thing that actually is “interesting to note”, John. Try, There’s no difference between YOU, and ill-formed weasel crap.

  91. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 31, 2013 at 2:05 pm #

    I can smell John’s desperation all the way from here. Man is it strong!

  92. avatar
    Daniel October 31, 2013 at 2:16 pm #

    Birthers equate any “anomaly” to proof of forgery, when pretty much every document on earth has an “anomaly” somewhere in it.

    The fact is that anomaly mining is not used by actual forensic examiners, despite what CSI television shows might portray. This is also why birthers fail. However, anomaly mining gives them a false sense of relevance, and feeds the thrill of “discovery” delusion.

    The fact remains that the PDF is irrelevant, and so any supposed “anomalies” in the PDF are also irrelevant.

    I challenge any birther to take the PDF down to the Hawaii (or any state or federal equivalent) DA office to register a complaint. The moment you show them a PDF, you’ll get the polite smile….. the one where they realize you’re a loon who only thinks you know what you’re talking about.

  93. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 31, 2013 at 2:21 pm #

    It doesn’t surprise me that birthers operate on a CSI mentality. I think it was John who was convinced that image enhancement software “like the police use”, could blow up bitmapped images to bring out fine details. I face-palmed so hard that I left a mark.

  94. avatar
    Rickey October 31, 2013 at 3:20 pm #

    john:
    Many will recall that Mike Zullo had interviewed or spoken to Verna K Lee, the Hawaii state registar who actually signed Obama’s birth certificate.Verner K Lee indicated to Mike Zullo that she maintained a tight watch over the birth certificates she signed and that birth certificates were doubled check for data consistency.

    We actually have no idea what Verna K. Lee said, because your pal Zullo has refused to released the audio tape of his conversation with her.

    However, there is a difference between “data consistency” and format consistency. As the registrar, Ms. Lee was concerned that all of the information – the data – on each birth certificate was accurate. Whether the doctor signed “M.D.” or “D.O.” or simply checked the appropriate box would have been irrelevant to her. Do you really believe that she would have rejected the birth certificate because Dr. Sinclair didn’t write “M.D.” after his signature?

    My father was a doctor. Sometimes he signed his name Edward J. _____________ and sometimes he signed it E.J. _______________. Sometimes he added “M.D.” at the end of his signature and sometimes he did not. It didn’t matter how he did it because they were all valid signatures.

  95. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 31, 2013 at 3:23 pm #

    My understanding is that no member of the Cold Case Posse spoke with Lee. It was Jerome Corsi. So much for “law enforcement investigation.”

    Rickey: We actually have no idea what Verna K. Lee said, because your pal Zullo has refused to released the audio tape of his conversation with her.

  96. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 31, 2013 at 3:55 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    My understanding is that no member of the Cold Case Posse spoke with Lee. It was Jerome Corsi. So much for “law enforcement investigation.”

    Here it is from the Phoenix New Times story of July 17, 2012.

    http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2012/07/cold_case_posse_nails_obama_wi.php

    Any day now.

  97. avatar
    Hermitian October 31, 2013 at 4:59 pm #

    nbc: As with Edison, I have reported also the data that appeared to contradict my findings, such as the Quantization Tables.

    How about the two new types of objects that were found in your Xerox 7535 scan to PDF image which are nowhere found in the WH LFCOLB PDF image?

    How about the N/A objects in your Xobject lists (from PDF parser printouts) for the Xerox 7655 scan to PDF images?

    And the Quantization tables from the Xerox 7655 scans were different from the Quantization tables from the Xerox 7535 scan.

  98. avatar
    gorefan October 31, 2013 at 5:22 pm #

    john: It now appears this error or inconsitency has deepened.

    And now the inconsistency gets shallow again.

    This WND article has a 1959 BC signed by none other than Dr. West. He doesn’t add the M.D. after his name.

    http://www.wnd.com/2011/05/298537/

    And the doctor who signed the Nordyke BCs does add the M.D.

    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/dailypix/2009/Jul/28/M1139416728.GIF

    And another 1961 Hawaii BC where the doctor did not add an M.D. after his name.

    http://rcradioblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/090811authenticbcoriginal3.jpg

    That’s four (five if you add Dr. Sinclair) BCs where the doctor did not add the M.D.

  99. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 31, 2013 at 5:51 pm #

    #1

    The first proof of forgery is a forged Registrar’s stamp on the Obama Certification of Live Birth (the short form or abstract) created on or before June 12, 2008

    To prove point one, Vogt makes a number of claims, specifically that the real registrar’s stamp is a metal stamp pressing a carbon ribbon with equal pressure across the stamp. What evidence does he give of this? None. He cites no experience with such stamps, making him not an expert. He makes the claim that got this notion from examining a number of other “legitimate” birth certificates. However, the examples he provides as evidence are not even legible, much less of such quality to determine their method of application. Presumably our ace scanner expert could scan a document so as to make it legible, suggesting that he had only poor photos to work from. In any case, his samples are so bad that one could not tell much of what they looked like, and any comparisons are subject to bias.

    Basically, Vogt makes an unproven assumption that the seal should be perfect, and then based on that assumption concludes that Obama’s certificate, which is not perfect, is a fake. He makes his assumptions to fit his conclusions.

    Am I missing something here?

  100. avatar
    nbc October 31, 2013 at 6:11 pm #

    Hermitian: How about the two new types of objects that were found in your Xerox 7535 scan to PDF image which are nowhere found in the WH LFCOLB PDF image?

    You claim that they are nowhere to be found. They are just like the other objects.

    How about the N/A objects in your Xobject lists (from PDF parser printouts) for the Xerox 7655 scan to PDF images?

    Yes, the number of objects do not always match, as expected. Duh…

    And the Quantization tables from the Xerox 7655 scans were different from the Quantization tables from the Xerox 7535 scan.

    I reported on that one. And showed how the 7655 owned by the Whitehouse had the correct Quantization matrix.

    You’re such a fool

    And Clueless

  101. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 31, 2013 at 6:14 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Am I missing something here?

    No.

    Vogt provides his own facts on which he builds his own assumptions to support his own conclusion. Very convenient and it saves a lot of wasted time.

    The examples he provides look like worn and/or over-inked rubber stamps to me that could have been applied with too much pressure.

    I think I can envision the sort of device he is talking about using a metal plate with a movable carbon ribbon but I can’t envision how it would be used to place the stamp where it is on the certificate. A rubber stamp seems like a more plausible explanation.

    Like I said I can envision what he is talking about but I don’t ever recall seeing anything quite like it. Have you, Doc?

  102. avatar
    gorefan October 31, 2013 at 6:23 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: the real registrar’s stamp is a metal stamp pressing a carbon ribbon with equal pressure across the stamp.

    So he just says that it is a metal stamp without any evidence that they even have such a stamp? Even is his examples were legible, how could you tell they were done with a metal stamp?

    BTW, Butterdezillion herself proved that the TXE stamp came directly from the DOH. Meaning the registrar stamp that appears on the President’s BC is the DOHs not something created by a forger in Washington.

    From NBCs site, a comment by Historiandude:

    Not sure that much attention has been paid to this… but the alleged “misspelling” on the Regstrar’s stamp has been proved to not be an anomaly, by of all people Butterdezillion. We all know that the much higher resolution AP scan shows that the “X” actually is an “H,” but it was unclear as to whether it was bad inking or a bad/damaged stamp. At some point, Butterdezillion received another Hawaii short form that clearly used the same stamp as on Obama’s long form. That stamp can be seen at the bottom of page 5 of Part ! of Butter’s meandering tome “The Putting-it-All-Together series.”

    http://butterdezillion.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/hdoh-red-flags.pdf

    In her classically clueless way, she does not realize that she has essentially proven the stamp with the “typo” to be a genuine stamp actually present in and used by the Hawaii Department of Health.

    http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2013/09/02/the-cold-case-posse/#comment-67874

  103. avatar
    HistorianDude October 31, 2013 at 6:40 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    #1

    Am I missing something here?

    Probably not. Sorry for a long post, but this is the draft on this point from “The Annotated Vogt” that I’ve been toying with.
    …………………………………………………….

    Paragraph 3: The Short Form Registrar’s Stamp.

    Vogt begins his descent into intense confirmation bias with what he calls (in his standard fractured syntax) “The First Mistake the Registrar’s Stamp, first point of forgery.” In this discussion he takes on the first birth certificate released by the Obama Campaign in June of 2008 as a response to Jim Geraghty’s National Review Online blog post regarding the President’s middle name. It was the standard Hawaiian computer generated short form, and until the release of the President’s long form three years later was the centerpiece of birther forgery claims. Vogt’s claims are that the Registrar’s Stamp proves the birth certificate to be a forgery, and he bases the claim on the unproved assumption that any legitimate stamp would have been applied with “a metal embossing stamp,” while asserting that “This registrar’s stamp appears to have been applied with a self-inking or rubber stamp and not a metal embossing stamp.”

    Hold that thought.

    As promised, we must take this opportunity to return to Vogt’s self provided “credentials.” Is there any indication in anything he offered that he has experience with stamps or stamping technology beyond that of your average scanner salesman? No. Out of the gate he is offering a set of opinions that have earned no obvious confidence or credibility. So the discussion that follows is purely out of prurient interest rather a rigorous need to counter what proves to be mere amateur opinion.

    That said. Let’s consider his actual arguments. He claims to offer four, though he is not clear on where one ends and another begins:

    First, he has (and shows) three examples of other Hawaiian registrar stamps that he implies were created using a metal plate, but makes no actual effort to explain what features might have led him to that conclusion. I myself admit a complete inability to discern the details that might lead him there other than a surrounding imprint of the stamp cushion which is not an uncommon artifact of rubber stamps as well as metal. Unfortunately, the images he provides of these examples are also of atrocious quality; heavily pixilated and largely unreadable. The information they provide is so subjective that it is a trivial issue to demonstrate in them essentially every one of the “problems” he claims as proof of forgery on the short form released in 2008.

    Second, he asserts that “there is no physical reason Onaka’s registrar stamp should be darker on the right side than the left side.” This of course is simply false, since he himself immediately goes on to offer at least one physical reason why this might happen; i.e. if it was not a metal embossing stamp at all, but a rubber stamp.

    Further, his description is misleading. The difference is not actually light vs. dark, but the fact that the left side of the stamp is clearly distorted by heavier pressure on the paper, something completely ordinary and common with, again, rubber stamps.

    His “third” piece of evidence has to do with the alignment of the rows of text in the stamp image. He argues that the “baseline” for the words “STATE REGISTRAR” are 1.2 degrees different than the “baselines” for the other three lines of text. His argument fails for at least two reasons.

    For starters, the image of the Registrar’s Stamp is not from a flatbed scanner which should be expected to have no parallax caused by the image having been taken at an angle. The original image (from which he derives the inexplicably poor quality version he offers) was photographed using a handheld camera at an angle to the paper page. So there should be no obvious expectation that all the lines be parallel in the first place.

    But more to the point, and as we have already noted, the right side of the stamp is distorted by heavier pressure on the page, obliterating any serious ability to objectively measure a “baseline” for that line of text. As in his original “affidavit” from May of 2011, Vogt is not actually measuring features of the image, he is measuring his arbitrary placement of lines that are entirely of his own invention.

    Vogt’s fourth and final “reason” is merely another take of the same characteristic that has plagued him twice above; the distortion of the stamp by heavier pressure applied on the right side. He claims that the two word in “STATE REGISTRAR are not the same type face.” His evidence is that when he copies the first (undistorted) “S” to the end of the line, it is smaller than the (heavily distorted) terminal “R.”
    Again, the difference is the obvious and ordinary artifact of the pressure distortion.

    In short, Vogt is by his own admitted credentials not an expert of any of the technologies or skills necessary to actually perform this analysis; his entire critique depends first on the uncritical acceptance of a bald assertion regarding how the stamp image was created; his claims depend on subjective and sometimes arbitrary measurements taken from poor quality images; and all of his cited anomalies have a same and single prosaic explanation that he himself considers but rejects without justification or explanation.

    This claim by Vogt fails.

  104. avatar
    John Reilly November 1, 2013 at 12:32 am #

    john: It now appears this error or inconsitency has deepened. Many will recall that Mike Zullo had interviewed or spoken to Verna K Lee, the Hawaii state registar who actually signed Obama’s birth certificate. Verner K Lee indicated to Mike Zullo that she maintained a tight watch over the birth certificates she signed and that birth certificates were doubled check for data consistency.

    John: you look for consistency from one document to another. Yet you cannot spell “inconsistently” consistently within the same paragraph. Nor can you spell Ms. Lee’s first name correctly two sentences in a row. Why should Dr. Sinclair have a consistent way of indicating his medical degree when you can’t spell? Or think?

    My irony meter broke and there are pieces everywhere. I’m going to Costco where I can buy irony meters in six packs.

    And just a reminder. You are a racist troll.

  105. avatar
    Slartibartfast November 1, 2013 at 2:53 am #

    Hermie,

    I would expect that someone who had 50 years of experience in basic research to have a better understanding of the scientific method. In this case we’re trying to answer the question of whether the pdf released by the White House was created by an automated process from the scan of a physical document or electronically by a human forger. In this context any feature of the document makes one hypothesis or the other more likely and the fact is that every single issue that you birthers have raised suggests an automated process rather than a human forger.

    One of the best ways of showing that an automated process is responsible for a particular artifact is to show that a similar artifact can be produced by an automated process. Which the Obots have done with a great many of the birther “anomalies” by means of a Xerox workstation.

    On the other hand, the birthers need to show how the artifacts were more likely to result from the intervention of a human forger—in other words, show how various techniques that a forger might use would result in the various items that Vogt has laid out. This is something which, to date, no birther seems to have realized is necessary, much less actually done. What I’m wondering is if you understand why this is important, but don’t have any evidence to support the conclusion you want or if you just don’t understand the scientific method well enough to realize how to use evidence to determine if a hypothesis is more or less likely to be true.

    Hermitian: Spoken by a clueless Obot to a guy who has done basic research for 50 years.

  106. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) November 1, 2013 at 4:39 am #

    gorefan: In her classically clueless way, she does not realize that she has essentially proven the stamp with the “typo” to be a genuine stamp actually present in and used by the Hawaii Department of Health.

    It even has the “smiley face” if you look closely.

  107. avatar
    Whatever4 November 1, 2013 at 9:43 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    #1

    To prove point one, Vogt makes a number of claims, specifically that the real registrar’s stamp is a metal stamp pressing a carbon ribbon with equal pressure across the stamp.

    But that wouldn’t bleed into the paper, would it? The ink bleed is one of the marks of authenticity.

  108. avatar
    Kiwiwriter November 1, 2013 at 9:52 am #

    john:
    Obama Birth Certificate Error/Inconsistency Deepens

    You have heard me discuss the Dr. David Sinclair Signature error/inconsistency.Dr. David Sinclair signed both Obama’s and Miki Booth’s birth certificate.On Miki Booth’s birth certificate Dr. Sinclair adds the “MD” title designation after his name but on Obama’s birth certificate, the “MD” title designation is absent.Obots simply claim that that since the MD check box is filled in, it would have been redundant or unnecessary for Dr. Sinclair to add the “MD” title designation after his name.However, other birth certificates around the same time period show different doctors adding their “MD” title designation even though the MD check box is filled in.

    It now appears this error or inconsitency has deepened.Many will recall that Mike Zullo had interviewed or spoken to Verna K Lee, the Hawaii state registar who actually signed Obama’s birth certificate.Verner K Lee indicated to Mike Zullo that she maintained a tight watch over the birth certificates she signed and that birth certificates were doubled check for data consistency.I have examined 2 birth certificates signed by Verna K Lee of the same time period other than Obama’s birth certificate.You can see the 2 birth certificates at the following links:http://obamabc.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/pdf-text-fails-grid-test.jpg & http://passportsusa.com/wp-content/gallery/passportusa/edith_front.jpg.

    Take note of the doctor signatures on each birth certificate.You will note 2 things.Both doctors (Not Dr. Sinclair) have added the “MD” title designation after their signatures even though the MD check box is filled in.Further, you will notice at each doctor’s signature has been typed out.

    You will also note that each birth certificate has been signed by Verna K Lee.

    Obama’s birth certificate does not have Dr. Sinclair’s signature typed out.

    I would have to examine more Verna K Lees birth certificate to see if this is a conclusive characteristic of the birth certificates she signs.But, you will also note that hospital is not Kaopoloni hospital so this could be a different hospital policy.

    In any event, the error or inconsitency deepens.Obots may point that the Nordyke birth certificate does not show this characteristic (Dr. signatures typed out) but Nordyke’s birth certificate was not signed by Verna K Lee.Again this could different hospital policy but it is interesting to note.

    John: The only outpourings from you that am interested in are these:

    “john October 16, 2013 at 1:29 pm #
    Maybe I should send an email to White House to ask Obama this question – Since its OK to put barricades up blocking access to the WWII Memorial, would be OK if lay on top of the Vietnam Memorial to take a knap? (There is a lot walking at Washington DC and I get tired. The Vietnam Memorial would great place the rest, lounge and take a knap)

    john October 16, 2013 at 2:08 pm #
    I sent the following letter to the Arlington National Cemetery Administration:
    Dear Administration,
    When the government reopens, I am planning on taking a trip to Washington DC. I plan to visit Arlington National Cemetery. I am an avid treasure hunter and I am asking permission if I can metal detect on the grounds of Arlington National Cemetery. Millions of people visit the cemetery and I want to metal detect around some of the green and the graves. I would promise to fill any holes I made and the administration can even keep an eye on me to be sure I fill in the holes I make at some the graves. I know this is an unusual request by I understand the National Park Service with approval of the President placed barricades in front of the memorials including the WWII Memorial denying Vets access to them. It seems this was OK with National Park Service and President so I don’t see why there be would a problem to allow me to metal detect around the green and the graves of Arlington National Cemetery. Thank you for your time in this matter and I look forward to quick response.”

    I still want to know what the Arlington National Cemetery’s response was, and how the search for Captain Kidd’s doubloons and President Obama’s birth certificate worked out.

  109. avatar
    Curious George November 1, 2013 at 2:39 pm #

    John,
    Still waiting for you to tell us who the forger is. Time to set up a John Clock Timer. John is Zullo’s Kadet and he is in the inner circle of the Klown Kar Kids. How long will it take for John to tell us who the forger is?

    Here’s a clue John……look at the initials RC. Take the R and go back to A. The name of the forger has an initial between R and A. Take the initial C and go to the left or the right. The initial is very close. You see, it’s easy John.

    Let’s hear it John. Who is the forger?

  110. avatar
    Rickey November 2, 2013 at 12:59 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    My understanding is that no member of the Cold Case Posse spoke with Lee. It was Jerome Corsi. So much for “law enforcement investigation.”

    Yes, my mistake about that. But it is Zullo who claims to have the audio tape and who has refused to release it. “Zullo said it’s up to the sheriff to decide if he’ll release the old woman’s audio.” – Phoenix New Times, but Arpaio claims that he doesn’t control the CCP.

    Zullo is the one who was forced by the police to leave Verna Lee’s assisted living facility.

  111. avatar
    Curious George November 2, 2013 at 10:31 am #

    Will it possibly be attached to the new Zullo book as an audio CD?

  112. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund November 5, 2013 at 12:43 pm #

    6. The sixth point of forgery on the COLB is that the age of Barack Hussein Obama, Senior was wrong;

    Other people have covered the foreign student angle, so let’s look at the why did the age change.

    Sr.’s birthyear did change in official documents over time, this is indisputable. However there are several scenarios that could explain it without invoking forgery.

    1. Improved knowledge.

    It could be that Sr. was unsure of his birthday when he came to the US, and simply selected a date that seemed reasonable (1961 census data from Kenya supports this hypothesis). During his studies, he became aware of world events that helped fix the birthyear, so he started using the corrected year. However, he continued to use the old birthyear for his extensions of stay because that was what was on the application. When he was accepted to Harvard, he then started using the correct birthyear on all official forms, being more confident that his stay would be extended despite the earlier error.

    2. Error by Dunham

    The birth certificate is normally filled out using information gleaned from the mother. The father’s age is asked, not the birthdate. If Dunham was unsure of the father’s age, she may have either guessed, or simply said mid-twenties, which would be entered as 25. Sr. might have then switched to using that year of birth so he could use the existence of an American son as leverage to remain in the states.

    I’m sure we can develop additional scenarios. The point is, the fact that Obama’s father changed his official birthyear is not good evidence of forgery.

  113. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund November 5, 2013 at 12:56 pm #

    Addendum:

    I note that the alleged second content error is the wrong race for the father. However, Vogt shows a list for the race of the child (which is not on the LFCB), and then a footnote for race of parent, in which “C., Col., Black, Brown, A.A., or Afro-American” are listed as possible racial entries, noting that the parent should be considered Negro if born in the US, and other non-white if born elsewhere. His own source impeaches him (whatever he should “properly” be listed as, it certainly wasn’t Negro!), and the pencil marks show that Sr. was correctly coded as “other nonwhite.”