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Worshiping the pile

A few miles from my house there is a hill. It’s a rather large hill, distinctively rising above the trees and visible for quite some distance. It’s a special hill in that unlike other hills around it, it just recently appeared. One might have thought some magic involved in its appearance, and perhaps some primitive people seeing the phenomenon of its growth day by day might imagine the action of the divine. It truth it’s a landfill and it’s full of garbage.

imageI offer the landfill as an analogy to birther collections of proofs and right wing collections of scandals about Obama. An example of the latter appeared just yesterday here in comments. Debunking Obama scandals is outside of my field of study, but a quick run through showed many of them were presented falsely or were based on biased opinion. The size of the list is supposed to overwhelm the one to whom it is presented, and its length is supposed to take the place of substantive argument. I suppose the idea is, “my list is so long, how could you possibly respond?”

Missing and Sealed Records

One of the classic lists from birthers is the missing and sealed records list, a collection of documents that aren’t missing, documents that are protected by law from disclosure and documents that in all likelihood never existed. No less than FactCheck.org took on one of these lists last year concluding:

Many records that presidential candidates don’t ordinarily release do remain confidential, but they are not “sealed” by a court. The 16 claims in a widely distributed graphic are mostly false or distorted.

Proofs of forgery

Scratch any birther, and you’ll find “every expert who has looked at the document says it’s a forgery.” When one looks carefully at the long list of experts, one finds the experts aren’t very expert. The experts on the list in turn present lists of anomalies in Obama documents such as Doug Vogt’s “20 points of forgery” that I started excavating. The list is comprised of inexpert assertions, selective use of evidence and misrepresentations of fact.

Crimes

For a list of alleged crimes, one can look at the Orly Taitz lawsuits and her RICO claims. Taitz also has huge lists of defendants too. Federal law enforcement has been presented with these lists (along with the proofs of forgery) and were not impressed with their quality (as evidenced by no investigations or prosecutions).

image

Aggregates

There are collections of piles, meta-piles, such as Mike Volin’s “Sheriff’s Kit,” a collection of videos and documents, one of which is Mike Zullo Alabama affidavit, itself a long list of allegations and talking points.

Anti-birther lists

Anti-birthers have their own lists, such as the list of lawsuits birthers have lost, “The Birther Scorecard.” I have my own list, “The Debunker’s Guide to Obama Conspiracy Theories.” I have never attributed anything special to its size (indeed I wish it could be smaller) and collected it only as a reference tool. Unlike birther lists, anti-birther lists stand up to scrutiny and if something is in error, it comes off the list.

Conclusion

Birthers worship the lists, attributing to them power and persuasiveness because of their size, when in fact they are just a pile of garbage.

Update:

A few hours after the publication of this article, Birther Report published an article of their own: “Team Arpaio: Hard Document Evidence Piling Up; Sheriff’s Office More Involved.” How cool is that?

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79 Responses to Worshiping the pile

  1. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG November 22, 2013 at 9:48 am #

    So that’s what birthers worship? I always assumed they worshiped “Anglo-Saxon God”, his son “Anglo-Saxon Jesus”, and the “Pointed sheet wearing Holy Spirit”.

  2. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater November 22, 2013 at 10:05 am #

    Yep just came across this again on Twitter. Saying Obama sealed his records as one of his first acts. When pointed out that the school records are protected under FERPA and pointing to a link to wikipedia they claimed wikipedia is a bad source. I’m like what exactly in the description of the federal law do you find questionable in the wikipedia article. Crickets.

  3. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG November 22, 2013 at 10:12 am #

    “If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself.”, except that only the latter half of that has come true for birthers.

  4. avatar
    The Magic M November 22, 2013 at 10:31 am #

    The rationale is “my list is so long, how could you possibly respond?

    Just like the claim that there are “too many anomalies on Obama’s documents” or “too many anomalies in his life story” is somehow supposed to turn a hundred zeroes into a non-zero sum.
    And when you debunk 5 birther claims, they usually ignore it and go “… but you can’t refute the other 95” (“yes, we can!” ;)).

  5. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater November 22, 2013 at 10:46 am #

    The Magic M: Just like the claim that there are “too many anomalies on Obama’s documents” or “too many anomalies in his life story” is somehow supposed to turn a hundred zeroes into a non-zero sum.And when you debunk 5 birther claims, they usually ignore it and go “… but you can’t refute the other 95″ (“yes, we can!” ).

    It’s the overwhelm the opposition with reams of BS method. If you can’t answer every single one of their claims within a few minutes then they claim victory.

  6. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 22, 2013 at 10:48 am #

    While I’ve never gotten a birther to actually debate, the tack I would like to take is “take your best shot.” Give me your best single point. If I can debunk that, then we may assume I can debunk the lesser ones.

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: It’s the overwhelm the opposition with reams of BS method. If you can’t answer every single one of their claims within a few minutes then they claim victory.

  7. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 22, 2013 at 11:01 am #

    A glance at the Twitter feed shows the Breitbart brochure story is making the rounds again. I added a comment on that original story:

    While Andrew Breitbart may not have been a birther, the real birthers are happy to appropriate this article and distort its findings to say that Obama wrote the biography in the booklet, and conclude that he was born in Kenya.

    Your article is not without sleaze, writing “Regardless of the reason for Obama’s
    odd biography, the Acton & Dystel booklet raises new questions as
    part of ongoing efforts to understand Barack Obama–who, despite four
    years in office remains a mystery to many Americans, thanks to the
    mainstream media.”

    In fact the real Barack Obama was at the same time talking about being born in Hawaii to newspapers, putting in question the article’s assertions that Obama had approved the text. The negative miasma of Obama supporters manipulating the story is without foundation. The most plausible explanation for the brochure is sloppiness (Obama’s father sharing the President’s name WAS born in Kenya).

    If you lie with dogs, you get up with fleas. In this case, delving into sleazy selective presentation of the evidence taints you with birtherism–a charge about as credible as this article’s point of view.

  8. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater November 22, 2013 at 11:11 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: While I’ve never gotten a birther to actually debate, the tack I would like to take is “take your best shot.” Give me your best single point. If I can debunk that, then we may assume I can debunk the lesser ones.

    I’ve gotten multiple birthers to try debating me but it’s the same usual nonsense. They go through a script first it’s the birth certificate. One claims if only he would release the long form original in court this would be all over. They then skip to other records. One of them is in your twitter feed at top infocyde. I hit him on several of his claims and now his last response was that he won’t be responding to me anymore.

  9. avatar
    JPotter November 22, 2013 at 11:39 am #

    Sometimes, you can’t have quantity and quality, and you have to choose. Well, they got quantity.

    Quantity’s cheap.

    That was always the knock on the Warsaw Pact back in the day. NATO was all about quality, having the best. Warsaw Pact and other communist regimes, (supposedly/generally) lagging in tech, invested in mass quantity of the relatively crude and the cheap.

    Just as 1 flight of F-15s is worth a squadron of Mig-23s, and M1A1s beat the pants off T-72s, a single fact trumps endless reams of birfer lies.

    Why are birfers such commies? 😉

  10. avatar
    Slartibartfast November 22, 2013 at 11:39 am #

    It doesn’t matter what you or Doc or any other Obot tries to do, since no birther will so much as admit what comprises good faith debate, let alone engage in it.

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: I’ve gotten multiple birthers to try debating me but it’s the same usual nonsense.They go through a script first it’s the birth certificate.One claims if only he would release the long form original in court this would be all over.They then skip to other records.One of them is in your twitter feed at top infocyde.I hit him on several of his claims and now his last response was that he won’t be responding to me anymore.

  11. avatar
    JPotter November 22, 2013 at 11:48 am #

    My town (or at least my side of the sprawl) neatly avoided having a hill to worship, by first digging a massive hole (a working quarry), and landfilling behind it. Quarrying one way and landfilling behind.

    Taking the useful out and replacing with the used.

    Haven’t noticed anyone worshipping the hole yet. Maybe some heavy equipment enthusiasts watching from time to time.

    People that used to crack me up are the planespotters. Until I saw the traffic those guys can rack up on Youtube.

  12. avatar
    Daniel November 22, 2013 at 12:28 pm #

    JPotter:

    People that used to crack me up are the planespotters. Until I saw the traffic those guys can rack up on Youtube.

    http://youtu.be/6RexQLrcqwc

  13. avatar
    justlw November 22, 2013 at 1:02 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: While I’ve never gotten a birther to actually debate, the tack I would like to take is “take your best shot.” Give me your best single point. If I can debunk that, then we may assume I can debunk the lesser ones.

    +1

  14. avatar
    justlw November 22, 2013 at 1:04 pm #

    “There has to be a pony in there somewhere!”

  15. avatar
    Yoda November 22, 2013 at 1:16 pm #

    It is impossible to debate the birther issue. The very idea of a debate assumes that there are two potentially legitimate sides to an argument or discussion. There are no arguments that birthers can put forth that are even remotely possible.

  16. avatar
    Slartibartfast November 22, 2013 at 1:28 pm #

    I think that there are three things necessary to debate in good faith:

    1. Agreement as to the semantics—you can’t communicate effectively if you can’t agree on the meaning of terms.

    2. Agreement as to assumptions—you can’t arrive at a shared conclusion if you don’t start from a shared set of facts.

    3. Agreement to engage logically—if someone refuses to either accept or logically refute the other person’s argument, then no useful debate is occurring.

    Any conversation with the birthers generally fails on all three counts.

    Yoda:
    It is impossible to debate the birther issue.The very idea of a debate assumes that there are two potentially legitimate sides to an argument or discussion.There are no arguments that birthers can put forth that are even remotely possible.

  17. avatar
    Daniel November 22, 2013 at 2:13 pm #

    4. Agreement that an idea successfully refuted is removed from the table

  18. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater November 22, 2013 at 2:30 pm #

    Slartibartfast:
    I think that there are three things necessary to debate in good faith:

    1.Agreement as to the semantics—you can’t communicate effectively if you can’t agree on the meaning of terms.

    2.Agreement as to assumptions—you can’t arrive at a shared conclusion if you don’t start from a shared set of facts.

    3.Agreement to engage logically—if someone refuses to either accept or logically refute the other person’s argument, then no useful debate is occurring.

    Any conversation with the birthers generally fails on all three counts.

    Number 1 always happens. Especially when birthers don’t accept sources like the DOH or have a common understanding of words

  19. avatar
    Slartibartfast November 22, 2013 at 2:41 pm #

    They usually throw in 2 and 3 for good measure as well (which prevents 4 from coming up at all).

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: Number 1 always happens.Especially when birthers don’t accept sources like the DOH or have a common understanding of words

  20. avatar
    JPotter November 22, 2013 at 2:41 pm #

    Slartibartfast: 2. Agreement as to assumptions—you can’t arrive at a shared conclusion if you don’t start from a shared [foundation].

    A good list, but kind of hard to equate ‘assumptions’ with ‘facts’. Assumptions probably isn’t exactly the right word either. Presuppositions?

    Again, a great list, but this is also about the nature of the interaction, not the participants themselves. Maintaining objectivity and an open mind, keeping ego separate from opinion, willingness to admit error, eagerness to accept correction, etc. Taking pride in the process of learning and mutual self-improvement, rather then debating in a spirit of competition, viewing debates as battles, debaters as potential conquests.

  21. avatar
    Slartibartfast November 22, 2013 at 2:46 pm #

    Another thing the birthers must avoid at all costs. If you are going to worship the pile, you can’t admit that pieces of it are crap…

    Daniel:
    4. Agreement that an idea successfully refuted is removed from the table

  22. avatar
    Slartibartfast November 22, 2013 at 2:53 pm #

    I think the word you’re looking for is “axioms” (I was using “assumption” in a manner roughly synonymous with “axiom”). They are presumed to be fact for the purposes of the discussion. I would see the traits you mentioned as indicators of whether or not someone was willing and able to participate in good faith debate.

    JPotter: A good list, but kind of hard to equate ‘assumptions’ with ‘facts’. Assumptions probably isn’t exactly the right word either. Presuppositions?

    Again, a great list, but this is also about the nature of the interaction, not the participants themselves. Maintaining objectivity and an open mind, keeping ego separate from opinion, willingness to admit error, eagerness to accept correction, etc. Taking pride in the process of learning and mutual self-improvement, rather then debating in a spirit of competition, viewing debates as battles, debaters as potential conquests.

  23. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater November 22, 2013 at 2:55 pm #

    Slartibartfast: I think the word you’re looking for is “axioms” (I was using “assumption” in a manner roughly synonymous with “axiom”). They are presumed to be fact for the purposes of the discussion. I would see the traits you mentioned as indicators of whether or not someone was willing and able to participate in good faith debate.

    I think he meant supposition. He didn’t need the pre in there.

  24. avatar
    JPotter November 22, 2013 at 3:01 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: I think he meant supposition.He didn’t need the pre in there.

    I will now invoke the Keith “I’m shooting from the hip while at work” Defense 😀

    My distracted brain fired off a ‘pre’ as in ” ‘pre’ the debate”, items agreed to prior to the debate LOL

    I did definitely mean supposition, though axioms could also come into play. To my mind, axioms are more fundamental, more universal, more general.

    Such as my personal axiom, “Sayin’ ain’ doin’.™ “

  25. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater November 22, 2013 at 3:03 pm #

    JPotter: I will now invoke the Keith “I’m shooting from the hip while at work” Defense My distracted brain fired off a ‘pre’ as in ” ‘pre’ the debate”, items agreed to prior to the debate LOLI did definitely mean supposition, though axioms could also come into play. To my mind, axioms are more fundamental, more universal, more general.Such as my personal axiom, “Sayin’ ain’ doin’.™ ”

    I seriously think my problem of why birthers end up blocking me is I throw out big words at them that they don’t understand.

  26. avatar
    Curious George November 22, 2013 at 3:53 pm #

    “Proofs of forgery
    Scratch any birther, and you’ll find “every expert who has looked at the document says it’s a forgery.” When one looks carefully at the long list of experts, one finds the experts aren’t very expert. The experts on the list in turn present lists of anomalies in Obama documents such as Doug Vogt’s “20 points of forgery” that I started excavating. The list is comprised of inexpert assertions, selective use of evidence and misrepresentations of fact.”

    ……and many of the self annointed “experts” seem to be connected to that bastion of birfer “truth”….WND. The pile just keeps getting deeper and deeper.

  27. avatar
    Crustacean November 22, 2013 at 5:15 pm #

    Daniel (quoting JPotter): People that used to crack me up are the planespotters. Until I saw the traffic those guys can rack up on Youtube.

    http://youtu.be/6RexQLrcqwc

    Love that clip, Daniel, thank you!

    Plane spotting does seem a strange hobby (though I’m a fine one to talk, given my hobby of playing with computer flight simulators). But remember, it was plane spotters who blew the lid off the CIA’s hobby of “extraordinary renditions.”

  28. avatar
    Yoda November 22, 2013 at 6:48 pm #

    How appropriate today:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wsl3BbwZ-8U#t=30

    Team Arpaio: Hard Document Evidence Piling Up; Sheriff’s Office More Involved

  29. avatar
    JD Reed November 22, 2013 at 7:10 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: Yep just came across this again on Twitter. Saying Obama sealed his records as one of his first acts. When pointed out that the school records are protected under FERPA and pointing to a link to wikipedia they claimed wikipedia is a bad source. I’m like what exactly in the description of the federal law do you find questionable in the wikipedia article. Crickets.

    Wikipedia is a good secondary source, usualy documenting its primarcy sources. Anyone with the search skills a college graduate, or anyone intelligent enough to graduate from college but didn’t, should easily find the original FERPA law and see for him/herself that personal education records really have been confidential since 1974. Same with the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996, regarding medical records (including birth records.)

  30. avatar
    Arthur November 22, 2013 at 8:45 pm #

    Yoda: Team Arpaio: Hard Document Evidence Pilin

    This is also at Birther Report. The comments are extraordinary idiotic and vicious.

  31. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 22, 2013 at 8:48 pm #

    A small technical point:

    The privacy of of medical records under HIPAA began April 14, 2003 following the adoption of the Privacy Rule issued under the statute. The Privacy Rule has limited scope and only “covered entities” are restricted from disclosing protected health information. Covered entitles are: health providers, insurance companies and claims clearing houses. A state vital records agency may or may not be a covered entity depending on its governance structure.

    Certain disclosures to support public health functions such as disease reporting is exempted from the HIPAA privacy rule.

    The CDC characterizes protected health information as:

    The Privacy Rule protects certain information that covered entities use and disclose. This information is called protected health information (PHI), which is generally individually identifiable health information that is transmitted by, or maintained in, electronic media or any other form or medium. This information must relate to 1) the past, present, or future physical or mental health, or condition of an individual; 2) provision of health care to an individual; or 3) payment for the provision of health care to an individual. If the information identifies or provides a reasonable basis to believe it can be used to identify an individual, it is considered individually identifiable health information.

    What’s important to remember about HIPAA is that covered entities would rather be safe than sorry–not disclosing when there’s any chance it would be improper.

    JD Reed: Same with the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996, regarding medical records (including birth records.)

  32. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 22, 2013 at 8:53 pm #

    I left this comment:

    “The evidence is piling up so deep, they’re going to have to open up a new section at the landfill.”

    Yoda: Team Arpaio: Hard Document Evidence Piling Up; Sheriff’s Office More Involved

  33. avatar
    Keith November 22, 2013 at 10:03 pm #

    Daniel: http://youtu.be/6RexQLrcqwc

    Reunion in the works… somebody must need money.

  34. avatar
    Keith November 22, 2013 at 10:09 pm #

    JPotter: I will now invoke the Keith “I’m shooting from the hip while at work” Defense

    Hmmm. I seem to vaguely resemble that remark.

    The formal logic book I am reading uses the term ‘common ground’. Arguments can use assumptions that are in the ‘common ground’ between the participants. The purpose of an argument is to add to that ‘common ground’.

  35. avatar
    Keith November 22, 2013 at 10:12 pm #

    Crustacean: Love that clip, Daniel, thank you!

    Plane spotting does seem a strange hobby (though I’m a fine one to talk, given my hobby of playing with computer flight simulators).But remember, it was plane spotters who blew the lid off the CIA’s hobby of “extraordinary renditions.”

    Man you should have seen the plane spotters go to work when the University of Arizona was in the search for a new basketball coach a few years ago.

    They were using some internet application to track the tail number of various booster’s planes to try to figure out who was being interviewed, where, and how long the meetings were. It was really, really, creepy.

  36. avatar
    JPotter November 22, 2013 at 10:18 pm #

    Yoda: Team Arpaio: Hard Document Evidence Piling Up; Sheriff’s Office More Involved

    “Sheriff’s Office More Involved”?

    So, ‘Team Arpaio’ (I assume that’s the CCCP) is saying that not only was Arpaio’s office involved in manufacturing imaginary conspiracies, but that they are somehow ramping up, and that this ramp up somehow reveals itself as complete silence?

    …. or involved as in Arpaio’s office was involved in covering up for Obama, and the bumbling pretend investigation was merely a sideshow to distract from any serious investigators during the election cycle … and that Arpaio’s office is now more involved in squelching birfers than ever? If that’s the case (hardehar), thena spectacular success it was. 😉

  37. avatar
    Slartibartfast November 22, 2013 at 11:30 pm #

    I avoided the word “axiom” because of the formal connotations, but the point that I was trying to make is that everyone has to agree to what will be considered facts in the debate. Logically, these facts serve as the axioms of the discussion. If you agree on the facts, agree on the meaning of the terms, and agree to use logic then you get Daniel’s point 4 (since a proposition can be proven wrong in this context).

    Your personal axiom seems particularly cutting to the birthers since they seem to say an awful lot while doing very little.

    JPotter: I will now invoke the Keith “I’m shooting from the hip while at work” Defense

    My distracted brain fired off a ‘pre’ as in ” ‘pre’ the debate”, items agreed to prior to the debate LOL

    I did definitely mean supposition, though axioms could also come into play. To my mind, axioms are more fundamental, more universal, more general.

    Such as my personal axiom, “Sayin’ ain’ doin’.™ ”

  38. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 23, 2013 at 8:59 am #

    It is one of those delicious coincidences that I published this article, “Worshiping the pile” on the same day that Birther Report published their article “Team Arpaio: Hard Document Evidence Piling Up: Sheriff’s Office More Involved

    My article was published at 9:30 AM and theirs at 5:46 PM (EST). So mine came first, and certainly I was not aware of their article when I wrote mine.

    In the HTML source of their article, I found:

    class=’updated published’ title=’2013-11-22T14:46:00-08:00′

  39. avatar
    Arthur November 23, 2013 at 10:16 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: It is one of those delicious coincidences that I published this article, “Worshiping the pile” on the same day that Birther Report published their article “Team Arpaio: Hard Document Evidence Piling Up: Sheriff’s Office More Involved”

    Sharon Rondeau says that this malodorous pile is attracting the resources of the Maricopa Sheriff’s Dept.:

    “On Friday evening, radio host Carl Gallups hosted Zullo on his ‘Freedom Friday’ show briefly, during which Zullo announced that he has discovered, with paper documentation, ‘universe-shattering new information’ in the investigation. Gallups stated that ‘mountains of evidence’ have been found which have changed the direction of the probe.

    “Zullo also announced that Arpaio has dedicated ‘resources’ from the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office to the investigation, whereas until this time, the Cold Case Posse had conducted its work independently, without cost to taxpayers as a result of its tax-exempt status.”

  40. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 23, 2013 at 10:23 am #

    I have updated this article to make it more graphic–to good effect I think.

  41. avatar
    Curious George November 23, 2013 at 10:33 am #

    From BR:

    “SKB1978 15 hours ago
    Remember to ignore the Barry-suckers, folks. They are becoming increasingly desperate as they watch their failed Messiah disintegrate before their very eyes. Arpaio, Zullo, and the CCP are not going to throw away their illustrious reputations on bogus claims. They have the nuts on Soebarkah and the timing is perfect: the dirt will come out right at the start of an election cycle.

    Have faith, be patient, stay strong, and ignore the Barrybots.”

    I like this part, ” Arpaio, Zullo, and the CCP are not going to throw away their illustrious reputations on bogus claims.”

    What kind of reputation do they have left after this debacle? They have failed “to clear the President.” They have failed to prove forgery. They have failed to prove the Hawaii DoH is corrupt. They have failed to file their 990 yearly statement to the IRS. They have provided bogus information (race codes charts) to the public. They have ignored the Hawaii DoH Verification of Birth for Obama to the Arizona Secretary of State. They have gotten zero cooperation from the Maricopa County PA because he deemed their evidence to be only speculation. And, they failed in their goal to impact the 2012 election cycle. And now we read the “dirt will come out right at the start of an election cycle.” Aren’t political propaganda and campaigning efforts forbidden by the CCP articles of incorporation? If anything, there is desperation on the part of Team Arpaio and his delusional birfers.

    Team Arpaio….game over!

  42. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG November 23, 2013 at 10:35 am #

    Speaking of birthers worshiping hot steaming piles, Zullo is back to his old spiel. This time its “We have UNIVERSE shattering evidence!”
    Gee, I sure hope not! The universe is where I keep all my stuff! 😉

    But like the battered spouse syndrome sufferers they are, birthers are lapping up his claims of “Just wait and see! Just a few more months! Honest!”
    …Oh, and send money!

  43. avatar
    Curious George November 23, 2013 at 10:37 am #

    Arthur: “Zullo also announced that Arpaio has dedicated ‘resources’ from the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office to the investigation, whereas until this time, the Cold Case Posse had conducted its work independently, without cost to taxpayers as a result of its tax-exempt status.”

    Without cost to the taxpayers? How about the $9,000 + of county tax dollars spent on his junket to Hawaii?

  44. avatar
    john November 23, 2013 at 10:59 am #

    This is an interesting development. Gallup has informed us that Zullo had gone out “west” for while to obtain documents and information. This may in fact be true. P&E apparently got a threatening email about this –
    [I removed the hyperlink, as it was just the Post Email’s subscription ordering page. Doc]

    Apparently someone did not like Sheriff Arpaio and Zullo in Hawaii.

    It seems that both Sheriff Arpaio and Mike Zullo have recently gone to Hawaii and apparently exerted some type of lawful authority there and were able to get documents. I guess we are going to have to wait what exactly they got.

    My mind races on what they might have been able to get?

    Obama’s high school records?

    Obama Sr’s college records?

    Some type of hospital records?

    Some other vital records?

    Whatever they might have gotten it apparently cannot be remedied by “Xeroxing”

  45. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 23, 2013 at 11:18 am #

    More on that:

    http://dissidentvoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/The-New-And-Improved-Jesus.jpg

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: So that’s what birthers worship? I always assumed they worshiped “Anglo-Saxon God”, his son “Anglo-Saxon Jesus”, and the “Pointed sheet wearing Holy Spirit”.

  46. avatar
    john November 23, 2013 at 11:31 am #

    Maybe Zullo was able to get Obama Sr’s college records. What are the importance of Obama Sr’s records? Well, one needs to check out documentation which would have a “race” listing on them. It better be “African”? Or maybe not…”Black”, “Negro” or “Kenyan”. Anyway, Obots havn’t been able to change the race of “African” to “Negro” with their Xerox WorkCenter.

  47. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 23, 2013 at 11:34 am #

    That would hardly be “universe shattering.”

    john:
    Maybe Zullo was able to get Obama Sr’s college records.What are the importance of Obama Sr’s records?Well, one needs to check out documentation which would have a “race” listing on them.It better be “African”?Or maybe not…”Black”, “Negro” or “Kenyan”.Anyway, Obots havn’t been able to change the race of “African” to “Negro” with their Xerox WorkCenter.

  48. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 23, 2013 at 11:36 am #

    Arpaio doesn’t have any “lawful authority” in Hawaii.

    john: It seems that both Sheriff Arpaio and Mike Zullo have recently gone to Hawaii and apparently exerted some type of lawful authority there and were able to get documents

  49. avatar
    Paper November 23, 2013 at 11:42 am #

    Alien version of NSA-style eavesdropping technology on the whole human race, containing a 3D hyper-recording of all archived history, including a time-stamped authenticated recording of Obama’s actual birth in Kenya?

    That would be the reason they need so long to sift and search through this mountain of evidence? Having found the true birth, they are now alien-googling for the recording of the forgers in action?

    john:

    My mind races on what they might have been able to get?

    Obama’s high school records?

    Obama Sr’s college records?

    Some type of hospital records?

    Some other vital records?

    Whatever they might have gotten it apparently cannot be remedied by “Xeroxing”

  50. avatar
    Arthur November 23, 2013 at 11:46 am #

    john: Maybe Zullo was able to get Obama Sr’s college records.

    Keep pluckin’ that chicken, john.

  51. avatar
    JPotter November 23, 2013 at 11:58 am #

    Slartibartfast: Your personal axiom seems particularly cutting to the birthers since they seem to say an awful lot while doing very little.

    Thanks, but it does cut both ways. What with anti-birthering being mostly a game of online observation and critique, it’s mostly all sayin’. Myself very much included. I say a lot. But do nothing on this front. Doing something requires offline investigating, experimenting, testing, traveling, participating in debate, documenting, and, of course, publishing the related video/audio/imagery/docs/writings online. Doc, Jack Ryan, NBC, RC, Foggy, Woodman, others, are doin’.

    I’ve passed up many chances to do something—get my hands on a Xerox way back when, “debate” Gillar, look up my local birfer superstas—but time is limited, and I can’t justify expense of resources on silliness. And, hey, anti-birthers aren’t making the crazy claims. The onus to do in on the birfers.

    “Doin'” must also be understood as “effectually accomplishing stated ends”. Zullo & Co is all say, no do. Taitz is desperate trying to give the appearance of do, but producing only doodoo; she ain’ doin’ nuthin’.

    “Saying’ ain’ accomplishin'” ain’ nearly as snappy.

  52. avatar
    gorefan November 23, 2013 at 12:20 pm #

    john: It seems that both Sheriff Arpaio and Mike Zullo have recently gone to Hawaii

    You need to listen to the tape. Gallups said that what was suppose to be a three hour trip turned into a three week trip out west. I doubt if Zullo had planned on going to Hawaii for three hours.

    A three hour tour? Skipper and Gilligan come to mind.

  53. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG November 23, 2013 at 12:29 pm #

    John, who said you could keep living on my planet, and breathing my oxygen? I think of all the people who died in that typhoon, yet useless wastes of space like you still live and breath. Makes me sick. I think I’m coming down with a severe case of birther derangement syndrome, because your lot’s very existence offends me.
    You can nix this post if you want, Doc. It’s your site, but I had to get how I felt off my chest.

  54. avatar
    Mitch November 23, 2013 at 12:31 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG:
    John, who said you could keep living on my planet, and breathing my oxygen?

    Ah, don’t worry, he can’t be using that much.

  55. avatar
    CarlOrcas November 23, 2013 at 1:06 pm #

    john: It seems that both Sheriff Arpaio and Mike Zullo have recently gone to Hawaii and apparently exerted some type of lawful authority there and were able to get documents. I guess we are going to have to wait what exactly they got.

    Don’t hold your breath, john.

  56. avatar
    CarlOrcas November 23, 2013 at 1:13 pm #

    gorefan: You need to listen to the tape. Gallups said that what was suppose to be a three hour trip turned into a three week trip out west. I doubt if Zullo had planned on going to Hawaii for three hours.

    A three hour tour? Skipper and Gilligan come to mind.

    Three hours in Honolulu? Sure. About time to have an umbrella drink – at the airport – before you get back in the security line to go home.

    This looks like a pretty lame effort to explain Zullo’s absence from the birther stage for the last few weeks.

  57. avatar
    CarlOrcas November 23, 2013 at 1:17 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Arpaio doesn’t have any “lawful authority” in Hawaii.

    Arpaio went to Honolulu and no one – there or in Phoenix – noticed?

    Talk about gullible.

  58. avatar
    gorefan November 23, 2013 at 2:23 pm #

    CarlOrcas: This looks like a pretty lame effort to explain Zullo’s absence from the birther stage for the last few weeks.

    A three week vacation that can be expensed as a business trip?

  59. avatar
    CarlOrcas November 23, 2013 at 2:57 pm #

    gorefan: A three week vacation that can be expensed as a business trip?

    The more I’ve thought about it I suspect what Zullo did is load up his iPad with pictures of a young Obama and spent three weeks methodically going from beach to beach in Hawaii asking people if they had ever seen him there between 1961 and 1967 or 1971 to 1979.

    Makes sense to me.

  60. avatar
    Steve November 23, 2013 at 7:55 pm #

    Slartibartfast:
    I think that there are three things necessary to debate in good faith:

    1.Agreement as to the semantics—you can’t communicate effectively if you can’t agree on the meaning of terms.

    2.Agreement as to assumptions—you can’t arrive at a shared conclusion if you don’t start from a shared set of facts.

    3.Agreement to engage logically—if someone refuses to either accept or logically refute the other person’s argument, then no useful debate is occurring.

    Any conversation with the birthers generally fails on all three counts.

    I’d like to add another rule: No fallback arguments.
    Whether it’s he was born someplace else, he renounced his citizenship when he was adopted or the two-citizen-parent theory or anything else, the birther needs to put all of his eggs in that basket and prove that case. If he can’t, he loses. He doesn’t get to move on to the next theory.
    The very fact that they even have fallback arguments proves they have nothing.

  61. avatar
    Keith November 23, 2013 at 9:09 pm #

    john: Maybe Zullo was able to get Obama Sr’s college records.

    Not from an official source, anyway.

    What are the importance of Obama Sr’s records?

    Zero. Zip. Nada. Nothing.

    Well, one needs to check out documentation which would have a “race” listing on them. It better be “African”? Or maybe not…”Black”, “Negro” or “Kenyan”.

    Nah. Irrelevant to anything what-so-ever. What he put on his college records, or someone put down on his behalf, has nothing what-so-ever to do with what he or Stanley told the Hospital Registrar at a later date.

    I am not sure college records would have a ‘race’ data item, even in 1961. Maybe, but I don’t think so. Nationality for sure, which would most likely be listed as “Kenyan”.

    Anyway, Obots havn’t been able to change the race of “African” to “Negro” with their Xerox WorkCenter.

    What does this even mean? Why on earth would anyone even try to do such a thing?

  62. avatar
    Curious George November 23, 2013 at 11:39 pm #

    John:

    “My mind races on what they might have been able to get?

    Obama’s high school records?

    Obama Sr’s college records?

    Some type of hospital records?

    Some other vital records?

    Whatever they might have gotten it apparently cannot be remedied by “Xeroxing”

    John is back with his fun, but delusional comments about his inside information from his good bud, Corporal Zoo-Low. So John, once again, who is the female forger and is she connected to a famous Birfer?

  63. avatar
    nbc November 24, 2013 at 12:54 am #

    Poor John is being set up for yet another disappointment and he still has not learned.

    Poor John…

  64. avatar
    nbc November 24, 2013 at 1:14 am #

    john: My mind races on what they might have been able to get?

    I know, it is easily overloaded with trivia. Poor John, you are in for yet another disappointment and you heard it here first.

    John, you are a tool and a fool as history has shown time after time. How does it feel?…

  65. avatar
    The European November 24, 2013 at 4:40 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    More on that:

    http://dissidentvoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/The-New-And-Improved-Jesus.jpg

    Another thought about religion and (not only) birthers:

    The fact that people like Gallups (a Christian minister) and many others, who hourly violate the second commandment, have not been smitten by a thunderbolt is proof enough that Jahwe, the God of the old Testament, is dead.

  66. avatar
    Rickey November 24, 2013 at 11:15 pm #

    john:

    It seems that both Sheriff Arpaio and Mike Zullo have recently gone to Hawaii and apparently exerted some type of lawful authority there and were able to get documents.I guess we are going to have to wait what exactly they got.

    Don’t hold your breath, as it would be harmful to your health.

  67. avatar
    Rickey November 24, 2013 at 11:22 pm #

    Zullo is the birther equivalent of Lucy and John is Charlie Brown.

    http://www.shellierushingtomlinson.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/charlie-brown-lucy-football.png

  68. avatar
    Benji Franklin November 25, 2013 at 1:32 am #

    john: Maybe Zullo was able to get Obama Sr’s college records. What are the importance of Obama Sr’s records? Well, one needs to check out documentation which would have a “race” listing on them.

    Maybe Zullo was able to get Obama Sr’s stool samples. What are the importance of Obama Sr’s stool samples? Well, one needs to change the conversation to crap when one has failed to make any headway for almost 5 years, in getting sane people to believe that Obama is somehow, by any theory or non-theory at all, ineligible to be President of the United States of America. documentation which would have a “race” listing on them.

  69. avatar
    justlw November 25, 2013 at 1:45 am #

    john: exerted some type of lawful authority there

    Ah yes, the lawful authority of a used car salesman. Criminals beware!

  70. avatar
    The Magic M November 25, 2013 at 7:54 am #

    The European: The fact that people like Gallups (a Christian minister) and many others, who hourly violate the second commandment, have not been smitten by a thunderbolt is proof enough that Jahwe, the God of the old Testament, is dead.

    Or that He considers letting him live out his birther delusions a better punishment than Hell could ever offer. 😉

    john: It seems that both Sheriff Arpaio and Mike Zullo have recently gone to Hawaii and apparently exerted some type of lawful authority there and were able to get documents.

    “It seems… apparently…” – dude, you sure are quite inconsistent in what you “believe” in based on mere speculation on your part and what you reject despite lots of tangible evidence.

    Dr. Conspiracy: That would hardly be “universe shattering.”

    Nor would it pass the “convince the greatest skeptic” test which I’ve translated as “would take us Obots about a day to refute”.

    So my guess is that either this is pure vaporware that is never meant to surface, or it’s something that is irrefutable by design (as it only depends on the credibility of a witness) like the recent claim “Ayers told me he wrote Obama’s book” or other “witness accounts” that are just made-up outlandish claims.

    I can think of a number of other things (like claiming “newly discovered Columbia regulations allowed foreign students to attend without being registered as foreign”), but they wouldn’t pass the “greatest skeptic” test because they wouldn’t prove anything at all about Obama.

  71. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater November 25, 2013 at 8:38 am #

    john:
    This is an interesting development.Gallup has informed us that Zullo had gone out “west” for while to obtain documents and information.This may in fact be true.P&E apparently got a threatening email about this –
    [I removed the hyperlink, as it was just the Post Email’s subscription ordering page. Doc]

    Apparently someone did not like Sheriff Arpaio and Zullo in Hawaii.

    It seems that both Sheriff Arpaio and Mike Zullo have recently gone to Hawaii and apparently exerted some type of lawful authority there and were able to get documents.I guess we are going to have to wait what exactly they got.

    My mind races on what they might have been able to get?

    Obama’s high school records?

    Obama Sr’s college records?

    Some type of hospital records?

    Some other vital records?

    Whatever they might have gotten it apparently cannot be remedied by “Xeroxing”

    Arpaio hasn’t gone anywhere he’s been out of this since last year. Zullo has no authority at all. Maricopa has no authority outside of AZ. So no they didn’t use their authority. John you’re a perfect example of people who worship the pile.

  72. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater November 25, 2013 at 8:39 am #

    john:
    Maybe Zullo was able to get Obama Sr’s college records.What are the importance of Obama Sr’s records?Well, one needs to check out documentation which would have a “race” listing on them.It better be “African”?Or maybe not…”Black”, “Negro” or “Kenyan”.Anyway, Obots havn’t been able to change the race of “African” to “Negro” with their Xerox WorkCenter.

    Since when do college records list race? When is the last time you went to college?

  73. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater November 25, 2013 at 8:42 am #

    john: Anyway, Obots havn’t been able to change the race of “African” to “Negro” with their Xerox WorkCenter.

    Why would they have to? African was perfectly acceptable in 1961 as the race was self identifying.

  74. avatar
    Kiwiwriter November 25, 2013 at 1:10 pm #

    john:
    This is an interesting development.Gallup has informed us that Zullo had gone out “west” for while to obtain documents and information.This may in fact be true.P&E apparently got a threatening email about this –
    [I removed the hyperlink, as it was just the Post Email’s subscription ordering page. Doc]

    Apparently someone did not like Sheriff Arpaio and Zullo in Hawaii.

    It seems that both Sheriff Arpaio and Mike Zullo have recently gone to Hawaii and apparently exerted some type of lawful authority there and were able to get documents.I guess we are going to have to wait what exactly they got.

    My mind races on what they might have been able to get?

    Obama’s high school records?

    Obama Sr’s college records?

    Some type of hospital records?

    Some other vital records?

    Whatever they might have gotten it apparently cannot be remedied by “Xeroxing”

    John, the only thing I want to know from you is this:
    john October 16, 2013 at 2:08 pm #
    I sent the following letter to the Arlington National Cemetery Administration:
    Dear Administration,
    When the government reopens, I am planning on taking a trip to Washington DC. I plan to visit Arlington National Cemetery. I am an avid treasure hunter and I am asking permission if I can metal detect on the grounds of Arlington National Cemetery. Millions of people visit the cemetery and I want to metal detect around some of the green and the graves. I would promise to fill any holes I made and the administration can even keep an eye on me to be sure I fill in the holes I make at some the graves. I know this is an unusual request by I understand the National Park Service with approval of the President placed barricades in front of the memorials including the WWII Memorial denying Vets access to them. It seems this was OK with National Park Service and President so I don’t see why there be would a problem to allow me to metal detect around the green and the graves of Arlington National Cemetery. Thank you for your time in this matter and I look forward to quick response.

    1. What was the response from Arlington?
    2. How did the dig work out?
    3. What was the point of that little exercise?

  75. avatar
    CarlOrcas November 25, 2013 at 1:20 pm #

    justlw: Ah yes, the lawful authority of a used car salesman.Criminals beware!

    Be nice or he’ll reset your odometer.

  76. avatar
    Jim November 25, 2013 at 1:31 pm #

    Is there a Zullo/Gallups quote-listing anywhere with all the promises and dates that Zullo/Gallups have made? Maybe John could comment on all the lies he has been told by them and explain why everyone with a brain knows that Z/G are just scam artists.

  77. avatar
    Rickey November 25, 2013 at 1:47 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: Why would they have to?African was perfectly acceptable in 1961 as the race was self identifying.

    And John forgets that the information on the birth certificate most likely was given to the hospital by Stanley Ann, not Barack Sr. But then John loves to grasp at straws.

  78. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater November 25, 2013 at 3:29 pm #

    Jim: Is there a Zullo/Gallups quote-listing anywhere with all the promises and dates that Zullo/Gallups have made? Maybe John could comment on all the lies he has been told by them and explain why everyone with a brain knows that Z/G are just scam artists.

    Yes there was one for a while I think RC cross posted it but it’s hard to keep up since they lie so often.

    http://rcradioblog.wordpress.com/mcso-cold-case-posse-timeline/

  79. avatar
    Benji Franklin November 26, 2013 at 3:38 pm #

    Jim: Is there a Zullo/Gallups quote-listing anywhere with all the promises and dates that Zullo/Gallups have made?

    Karl Gall Oops!: “We’re back here on ‘Free Dumb Fridays’ listeners, and just a Birther-speak clarification, Obots, when we announced that we had new “Universe shattering hard evidence” connected with our Obama document fraud un-numbered case investigation, that word “shattering”, is simply the past tense of the word, “shittering, meaning, “Evidence that’s crap!”

    “Now,I’ve got Mike Zoo Low on the phoney to give us his usual ‘Top Secret!’ sham update about the so-called Obama Document Fraud Case, where we never specify our ‘NEW and IMPROVED’ evidence and never take it to prosecutors because of course, no crime has actually been committed by the White House’ simple act of posting an informational, officially factually confirmed as correct, PDF likeness of his birth certificates online.”

    ” Remember that I, Karl Gall Oops!, a preacher with no official connection to Law Enforcement, inexplicably claims to be privy to much of this secret information which I refuse to share with your sorry asses time after time, except to tantalize your continued donations by saying it’s now become the biggest scandal, or – let’s call it – an Obama Mama crime wave, – in our nation’s history – even, again, surpassing World War 2 several times over in its Obama linked horror!”

    “Now some of you irritated listeners, are peevishly AND selfishly asking for a time certain, and yes, I mean an EXACT time when we are going to share –- EVERY BIT of our LATEST and STILL, even BIG, BIG, BIGGER! secret Obama-ejecting evidence, with you. And when we dispense this inside dope to you, you’ll be in elite company because we’ve already cross-fingers-pledged to show our unfounded conclusory allegations only to law enforcement, or the Congress, or the Media, with the caveat that our first choice always would be to scream a ranting Obama tell-all outside of Old Lady Dooton’s after-school 8th Grade U.S. History Club and Punitive Study Hall, down the street here!”

    “Okay, Mike Zoo Low, without further delay, start the countdown to the long-awaited actual revelation of our latest Obama-ruining document fraud details, which we are about to exclusively excrete upon our listeners here on the PeePee Summons Rodeo Nutwork!”

    Supreme Grand Field Marshall Dillon Zoo Low: “Thanks Karl! So the folks know where this witch hunt is meandering, let me get right to that countdown, tell ‘em what we’ve got, and end all the mystery right now!” (Turns on the echo effect switch.)

    Gall Oops!: “ We’re unzipping History! Go ahead, Mike!”
    Zoo Low: “Five!” [five..five], “Four!” [four..four], “Thuh Reeee!!” [three-three]

    Gall Oops!: “Here it comes!”
    Zoo Low: “Two-o-o-o Uh!” [two-.two]

    Gall Oops!: “Praise the name of Arpaio!”
    Zoo Low: “Uh ONE Uh!” [one-one]

    Gall Oops!: “And here it is at long last – lay the fire on ‘em, Mike Zoo Low!”
    Zoo Low (faster): “TWO!” [two], “THREE! [three], “FOUR!” [four] (speeding up) “FIVE!” [five], “SIX! [six], “SEVEN!” [seven], “8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 16 17……..”

    Gall Oops!: “Ahhhhhhhhaaaaaa! I see where Mike’s going with this! Are you listening out there, donators?”

    “And…and….and counting up an Obama ejecting countdown to infinity doesn’t come cheap, am I right about that, Mike Zoo Low?”