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Invisible evidence

Characterizing invisible evidence

I made a list last July of 34 things the Cold Case Posse hasn’t released or explained and included it in my article, “Waiting for Zullo.” The most prominent item on the unreleased evidence list is of course the Reed Hayes report.

What I would like to do now is make another list of the ways Zullo has characterized the evidence he won’t show. Here are the first three. Can you think of more?

The irrefutable nature of invisible evidence

The Cold Case Posse and Joe Arpaio used to be all about releasing the results of their investigation, with no fewer than three news conferences plus other group evidentiary presentations, seminars, even a book jointly authored by Jerome Corsi and Mike Zullo. There were reports. There were videos.

How’d that work out for you Mike?

Cold Case Posse evidence fell apart under scrutiny and nobody, beyond birthers who will believe anything, saw anything persuasive in it—just the opposite. What we found was evidence of the incompetence of Zullo’s birther brand of brothers (AKA the Cold Case Posse). Folks like me enjoyed a killing field, a virtual orgy of debunking. In one case, with a fake race code table, Zullo demonstrated that he could be easily fooled by other birthers, and that he was willing to lie to try to prop it up.  News coverage, such as it was, accurately described Posse claims as “long discredited.”

One commenter aptly pointed out that so long as the Cold Case Posse doesn’t release the evidence, it cannot be refuted, and that seems to be Zullo’s more-recent strategy, substituting claims about the strength of the evidence for the evidence itself, and stringing out supporters with ever-lengthening time frames for evidence to appear—March is the last target I’ve seen given.

The risk

The risk, however, is that Cold Case Posse supporters will get tired of being strung along. That pressure is bound to increase as time goes on and Obama inches towards the end of his term of office. Still birthers are an optimistic lot, undaunted by defeat, yet some cracks are showing, such as this from a prominent commenter at Birther Report:

Zullo must be dumber than I imagined.

That same commenter, however, expresses an irrational estimation of the state of anti-Obama activism , saying:

Wow – the O-Holes are certainly worried judging their comments on the last thread. And they have plenty of reason to worry.

I’m banned at Birther Report, so the comments referenced aren’t mine, but I cannot even begin to imagine what anti-birthers could possibly be worried about. Invisible evidence? :roll:

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96 Responses to Invisible evidence

  1. avatar
    Curious George December 14, 2013 at 8:23 am #

    Yes, I believe Zullo’s magic show is beginning to falter. People are seeing the wires in his levitation act. They’re seeing the fake rabbit in his top hat. His tricks with marked cards no longer awe the gullible. And his used car sales tactics no longer close the deal on that custom Nash Rambler, previously used by a group called the Klown Kar Posse. Zullo the Magnificent has been exposed. Let the Birther feeding frenzy begin! Exit, stage right.

  2. avatar
    aarrgghh December 14, 2013 at 8:39 am #

    the fact that birfers have always been so easily mollified and strung along by the empty promises of such thinly masked hustlers only proves that having evidence is really beside the point of being a birfer.

  3. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG December 14, 2013 at 9:13 am #

    The title of this article brings to mind how birthers, from time to time, compare Obama to “The Emperor’s new clothes”.
    I don’t think they quite understand the story, as Obama is not the one being strung along by imaginary bull$^#@. They are.

  4. avatar
    sactosintolerant December 14, 2013 at 9:18 am #

    In his recent interview with Gallups, Zullo attempts to explain why the CCP released info in the beginning but refuses to now.

    He says all the earlier releases were of info that was already publicly known. Of course that calls into question if their early investigation was nothing more than a Googlefest with a heavy dose of Corsi-fed bull, but anyway… I’m pretty sure the MacGyvered date stamp was never mentioned publicly until the press conference.

  5. avatar
    Benji Franklin December 14, 2013 at 10:07 am #

    Doc, in your piece on “The irrefutable nature of invisible evidence”, you list three types of such as claimed by Zullo:

    1) Will … convince even the greatest skeptic
    2) Universe-shattering
    3) IronClad And Can Never Be Refuted

    Of course, the expression “Universe-shattering” all by itself, applied to real life evidence, is an exercise in cartoonish law unenforcement. No serious or sane law officer would use such a term outside of a retirement home or a brothel.

    And your piece’s title is just an elegant restating of the following phrase:

    “The refutable nature of visible non-evidence”

  6. avatar
    Curious George December 14, 2013 at 12:18 pm #

    alg
    December 14, 2013
    Ironclad evidence:

    http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nrg1/TheLastofanOldIroncladHMSResistance.jpg

    And quickly sinking…….

  7. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG December 14, 2013 at 1:11 pm #

    Zullo’s sooper seekrit VIP is the “The Ghost that Never Lies”…but only Zullo can see or hear him!

  8. avatar
    CarlOrcas December 14, 2013 at 2:14 pm #

    You can’t make this stuff up. (Or, at least, rational people can’t.)

    And if you tried and submitted it as a story treatment you’d be laughed out of Hollywood because it’s too stupid……..even for a Steven Segal movie.

  9. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 14, 2013 at 2:41 pm #

    I believe Corsi’s stroll through Honolulu immigration forms was also new (and in the wrong city).

    It’s interesting that this comment is current, because just today I was looking over my book review of the Cold Case Posse book that came out the day before the first press conference. That review notes that a couple of chapters in the book were cribbed from Jerome Corsi’s “Where’s the Birth Certificate?” Here’s that review for reference:

    A Question of Eligibility: A Law Enforcement Investigation into Barack Obama’s Birth Certificate and His Eligibility to be President (Kindle Edition)
    My first question as I started reading “A Question of Eligibility: A Law Enforcement Investigation into Barack Obama’s Birth Certificate and His Eligibility to be President” by Jerome Corsi (and perhaps Mike Zullo) was whether or not any member of law enforcement was involved in the investigation. The book describes the lead investigator, Mike Zullo, as “Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office, Chief Investigator, MSCO Cold Case Posse” which might lead someone to think that Mr. Zullo holds a law enforcement position with Maricopa County, but that would be wrong. The Cold Case Posse is a group of volunteers, not County employees. Published sources describe Mr. Zullo as a “retired detective from New Jersey” but nowhere in the book does it say whether he was a police detective or private detective or that he is a detective at all. One would expect a book about an investigation to talk about the people who participated in the investigation, their background and their credentials, but that’s completely missing in this book. All we have are the two names of this book’s authors. In an interview, Sheriff Joe Arpaio states that virtually no money from the County was spent on the investigation, which means that none of his paid law enforcement staff worked on it.

    My second question was whether there was any investigation. The State of Hawaii, at which Sheriff Arpaio points the finger of suspicion, told reporters that no one from the Cold Case Posse had even talked to them. Further several commenters have pointed out that most of the “investigation” in the book comes from previously-published works by WorldNetDaily’s reporter Jerome Corsi. Atlanta attorney Loren Collins has published a side-by-side comparison of Chapters 1 and 2 of this book and Jerome Corsi’s book written before the investigation, Where’s the Birth Certificate?: The Case that Barack Obama is not Eligible to be President showing big chunks of text copied word for word. The separate graphic analysis released by the Sheriff’s Office was written by Mara Zebest, who was writing articles for WorldNetDaily claiming that the birth certificate was a fraud long before this investigation. Even the videos were narrated by a far-right talk show host named Mark Gillar who has given considerable time to members of the “Birther movement” on his show. And of course, the book was published one day BEFORE the results of the “investigation” were announced. I can’t help but wonder if the “6-month investigation” ever happened, or if the 6 months were spent in slick video production and adaptation of content from Corsi and WorldNetDaily for this book.

    The actual premise of the book is right out of a conspiracy theory thriller. In order for this book’s conclusions to be true a lot of people have to be in on the conspiracy including two State of Hawaii administrations, one Republican and one Democratic (including two governors, two Department of Health Directors, and one Director of Vital Statistics), the White House, the US Selective Service System under President George W. Bush and NBC News Correspondent Savannah Guthrie who said she saw, felt and photographed the paper birth certificate that the book says doesn’t exist.

    The first major section of the book deals with the President’s long-form birth certificate. The book doesn’t make the claim that was made during the Maricopa County press conference that “forensic document examiners” had vetted the analysis of the certificate. Nowhere do we find the names of any of these in the book. Indeed WorldNetDaily’s own reporter Aaron Klein stated on his WABC radio show that they commissioned three credentialed document examiners to look at the certificate and that NONE of them found evidence of fraud. WorldNetDaily has not published any of these reports. One of the examiners, Ivan Zatkovich, published his report himself showing no conclusion of forgery. In addition another noted graphics detective, Dr. Neal Krawetz, also examined the document and found no evidence of fraud. So why didn’t the Cold Case Posse talk to these 4 experts, and why didn’t they include the 3 reports that WorldNetDaily itself commissioned? A volunteer computer-savvy conservative spent three months examining the same issues raised here, resulting in a fine book that basically covers all of the birth certificate issues investigated. I reviewed Is Barack Obama’s Birth Certificate a Fraud?: A Computer Guy Examines The Evidence For Forgery when it came out, and it is far superior to this one. It concludes that there’s no evidence of forgery (just as the 4 professional examiners did).

    This isn’t the appropriate place for a point-by-point examination of the graphics methodology, but I will point out one more major thing missing from the book and that is the words “Quartz PDFContext.” That is the Apple computer software used by the White House in creating the birth certificate they released. It appears from the available videos that the Cold Case Posse never attempted to use the same software as the White House in their experiments — which of course makes them worthless. Listening to Zullo one might think that “optimization” and “OCR” were one thing done one way in all systems and software, which anyone who knows about graphics would consider nonsense. When they ran their experiment, they didn’t even start with a real birth certificate.

    A second major premise of the book is that Barack Obama’s Selective Service System registration is faked. Remarkably, there’s not one word about where the supposedly forged registration card they examined came from. I do not know if they just found it on the Internet or got it from some official source. It was claimed on the Internet that someone named Stephen Coffman obtained the form through a Freedom of Information Act request in October of 2008. The document was certainly on the Internet by November. The significance of that date is that the response came from the George W. Bush administration, not Barack Obama. Why would Bush fake a document for Obama? This hugely significant fact seems like a major oversight in the book. Maybe Corsi and Zullo didn’t even know where the image came from. Did they conclude fraud based on part of a date stamp not showing on a document they just found on the Internet? An actual law enforcement investigation would be concerned with the chain of custody of such a document, where it came from and who handled it.

    The next section deals with Obama’s social-security number. One would think that real law enforcement could easily check a social-security number, but instead they just recounted a tale from a private investigator who looked at public information, long before the Cold Case Posse got involved. The statement that Barack Obama uses the social-security number issued to a person born in 1890 is patently absurd to anyone, like myself, who has ever had to straighten a SSN mismatch with the IRS.

    The last section is a rather silly search in the national archives for records of international flights to Honolulu, supposedly performed by Jerome Corsi (not law enforcement). I say that it is silly because if Obama had been born in Kenya as conspiracy theorists like to say, a returning flight would have been through Los Angeles, and so the leg to Honolulu wouldn’t have been an international flight in the first place and no INS record would have been filled out. The three pages of this section may be the only thing “new” in the book.

    So in conclusion, I cannot tell from the book whether any member of law enforcement participated or whether there was any investigation at all and whether anyone worked on the project who didn’t come into it fully-wedded to the conspiracy theories about President Obama. Sheriff Joe Arpaio got some publicity and perhaps some payback for the Obama administration’s accusations of endemic racial profiling in his office, and Mr. Zullo gets a split of the profits from the sale of a “sensational” book.

    All I can add is unless you’re made of some pretty strong stuff, you will be dumber for having read this book.


    sactosintolerant: He says all the earlier releases were of info that was already publicly known. Of course that calls into question if their early investigation was nothing more than a Googlefest with a heavy dose of Corsi-fed bull, but anyway… I’m pretty sure the MacGyvered date stamp was never mentioned publicly until the press conference.

  10. avatar
    Curious George December 14, 2013 at 3:35 pm #

    The review above shows a pathetic joke that has been foisted onto the public. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence could not believe a word coming from the CCCP and their Birther puppets.

  11. avatar
    Paper December 14, 2013 at 3:39 pm #

    Well, there’s always: Birthnado!

    Wherein birth certificates rain from the sky causing all kinds of havoc, reams of paper clobbering people, papering over people, swallowing them in literal paperwork, turning them into paper mummies.

    Wherein a classic scene from the movie Brazil is turned into an entire B-movie.

    As a few stalwart citizens discover the shocking truth hidden in plain sight, that *everyone’s* birth certificate has been forged!

    CarlOrcas:
    You can’t make this stuff up. (Or, at least, rational people can’t.)

    And if you tried and submitted it as a story treatment you’d be laughed out of Hollywood because it’s too stupid……..even for a Steven Segal movie.

  12. avatar
    Keith December 14, 2013 at 4:54 pm #

    sactosintolerant:
    In his recent interview with Gallups, Zullo attempts to explain why the CCP released info in the beginning but refuses to now.

    He says all the earlier releases were of info that was already publicly known. Of course that calls into question if their early investigation was nothing more than a Googlefest with a heavy dose of Corsi-fed bull, but anyway… I’m pretty sure the MacGyvered date stamp was never mentioned publicly until the press conference.

    I expect March will blow out to, say, June.

    Then we can notice the ‘reason’ for the delay… we’ll be in full election mode by then.

  13. avatar
    Thinker December 14, 2013 at 5:01 pm #

    Zullo really needs to STFU. Almost everything he says provides evidence that he is full of shit. The interview with Verna Lee was new. At the news conference where Zullo first talked about the interview, he acted as if the name of the registrar had not been previously known, which of course is BS.

    sactosintolerant: He says all the earlier releases were of info that was already publicly known.

  14. avatar
    Benji Franklin December 14, 2013 at 5:43 pm #

    Karl Gall Oops!:”Okay, Listeners we’re back here with my Free Dumb Friday’s program on the Pee Pee Summons Rodeo Nutwork, and I’ve got the Dead-Case-Posse’s Universe-Shattering-Evidence designator, Rear-Admiral Mike Zoo Low on the phone here to update us on what yesterday’s horrific Pacific Ocean Earthquake and sinking of the Hawaiian Islands, means to the Obama Document Fraud Case! Now, obviously you never want to lose a suspect or an important witness, but is the silver lining here, Mike, that the Obama document forger is almost certainly among the almost million and a half odd dead? Am I right about that, Mike?”

    Mike Zoo Low:”Well, sure, but Karl, there’s a human dimension associated with the disappearance of these islands, so first let me extend our sincere condolences to the families and friends of the resulting approximately 1,392,313 missing possible persons of interest to our investigation.”

    Karl Gall Oops!:”Oh, Gosh, yes and you hate to say it, but they’re all presumed dead, am I right about that, Mike?”

    Mike Zoo Low:”Yes, presumed DEAD, but as with all of our investigations, not INNOCENT! And while this earthquake does not make any of our current accusations against Obama ANY LESS provable, it does mean our investigation takes a big turn and refocuses on who is responsible for all of these deaths! Why didn’t these people get any warning? I mean, how many Hawaiians understood that their homes were on oceanic islands of volcanic origin? I didn’t.”

    Karl Gall Oops!:”I see, Mike. So, a word to any Obots listening out there, the loss of everyone in Hawaii including those we were planning to call as witnesses, is a matter of no concern. And our focus has to shift now to exposing the biggest mass – what would you call it – ‘murderer’ really – in the history of our country! You KNOW the administration isn’t going to investigate that! So where do we start, as former officers of the Law? We want to be FAIR, don’t we, Mike?”

    Mike Zoo Low:”That’s right, and so that we maintain our credibility as objective and impartial and criminal investigators, and don’t have the Obots accusing us of trying to pick on the President, we are stating now for the record that the purpose of this investigation is to first CLEAR of ALL CHARGES for the loss of life in Hawaii, if possible, any individual using the middle name, ‘Hussein.’ ”

    Karl Gall Oops!:”Okay, Mike! And before I and our supporting listeners let you go, I seem to recall that, investigating 100′s of feet under water, that’s not cheap,- am I right about that, Mike”

  15. avatar
    Reality Check December 14, 2013 at 6:16 pm #

    Zullo said something to the effect that “we are going to do it differently this time”. Reading between the lines what he is saying is that by putting their BS out there in news conferences it allowed “us” (meaning all of us who know the CCP is a complete farce) to completely pick apart the evidence. That culminated with the fiasco aka the Second CCP Press Conference last July. Zullo is still smarting from that one.

    I think Doc has captured the new strategy and the risks pretty well. Zullo is releasing none of this universe shattering new evidence and has set the earliest date for something to happen. This is after two or three rounds of “three to six months” and a complete pirouette from “this is not a criminal investigation we are taking this to Congress” back to “we don’t need Congress this is a criminal investigation” again.

    At this point I would have to question the mental stability of anyone who believes a word of what comes out of Zullo and Gallups’ mouths. Are you listening James Y.?

  16. avatar
    CarlOrcas December 14, 2013 at 6:20 pm #

    Paper: As a few stalwart citizens discover the shocking truth hidden in plain sight, that *everyone’s* birth certificate has been forged!

    That’ll keep the birthers going for a couple centuries.

  17. avatar
    CarlOrcas December 14, 2013 at 6:38 pm #

    Reality Check: I think Doc has captured the new strategy and the risks pretty well. Zullo is releasing none of this universe shattering new evidence and has set the earliest date for something to happen. This is after two or three rounds of “three to six months” and a complete pirouette from “this is not a criminal investigation we are taking this to Congress” back to “we don’t need Congress this is a criminal investigation” again.

    That is certainly plausible (as much as it gets in the birther world) but I still wonder what is the end game…..for Zullo? For the others?

    Where does Zullo go and how long can he maintain any momentum? Everyone else, it seems to me, is just along for the ride.

    Thoughts?

  18. avatar
    Curious George December 14, 2013 at 7:22 pm #

    CarlOrcas: That is certainly plausible (as much as it gets in the birther world) but I still wonder what is the end game…..for Zullo? For the others? Where does Zullo go and how long can he maintain any momentum? Everyone else, it seems to me, is just along for the ride.Thoughts?

    Where does he go? He will simply fade further into obscurity and derision. Eventually his Birther cohorts will turn on him because he didn’t and couldn’t deliver on his promises that were built of a foundation of deception. He will be remembered as humorously quixotic. A new term will be generated to describe people who are gullible and easily suckered. They will be known as having been “zulloed.” Very soon, I predict “zulloed” will become a new entry in The 2014 Merriam-Webster Dictionary. Now there is a legacy. Don’t forget to turn out the lights at the CCCP.

  19. avatar
    gorefan December 14, 2013 at 7:24 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Thoughts?

    I believe they do have what they consider to be irrefutable evidence. Something new. That doesn’t mean it is irrefutable, only that they think it is.

    If I had to guess what it was, I would lean to the newspaper announcements. Other than the BC, they are the one piece of evidence cited by the media and Congress that sinks the birthers arguments every time.

    IIRC they were offering $15000 for an actual newspaper copy, that’s a powerful incentive to create, I mean find a copy.

  20. avatar
    Curious George December 14, 2013 at 7:32 pm #

    gorefan: I believe they do have what they consider to be irrefutable evidence. Something new. That doesn’t mean it is irrefutable, only that they think it is.If I had to guess what it was, I would lean to the newspaper announcements. Other than the BC, they are the one piece of evidence cited by the media and Congress that sinks the birthers arguments every time. IIRC they were offering $15000 for an actual newspaper copy, that’s a powerful incentive to create, I mean find a copy.

    The money was offered by the Birther Summit as I recall.

  21. avatar
    Curious George December 14, 2013 at 7:50 pm #

    Doc:

    “I’m banned at Birther Report,…..”

    Aren’t we all?

  22. avatar
    Slartibartfast December 14, 2013 at 7:52 pm #

    So you are suggesting that someone may have forged a fake 1961 newspaper and used it to defraud the Maricopa CCCP of their hard-earned birfer bux? That’s almost too good to be true—if they had perfect standing to take someone to court for fraud and forgery and all they would have to do to win would be to impeach their soopur-doopur ebidence and admit that President Obama’s birth announcements were legit. That would be hilarious!

    I have to admit that their behavior does seem to indicate that they think they’ve got something new and this is the best theory as to what they might have that I’ve seen so far. I certainly hope it turns out to be correct.

    gorefan: I believe they do have what they consider to be irrefutable evidence.Something new.That doesn’t mean it is irrefutable, only that they think it is.

    If I had to guess what it was, I would lean to the newspaper announcements.Other than the BC, they are the one piece of evidence cited by the media and Congress that sinks the birthers arguments every time.

    IIRC they were offering $15000 for an actual newspaper copy, that’s a powerful incentive to create, I mean find a copy.

  23. avatar
    CarlOrcas December 14, 2013 at 7:52 pm #

    Curious George: Where does he go? He will simply fade further into obscurity and derision. Eventually his Birther cohorts will turn on him because he didn’t and couldn’t deliver on his promises that were built of a foundation of deception. He will be remembered as humorously quixotic.A new term will be generated to describe people who are gullible and easily suckered.They will be known as having been “zulloed.”Very soon, I predict “zulloed” will become a new entry in The 2014 Merriam-Webster Dictionary.Now there is a legacy.Don’t forget to turn out the lights at the CCCP.

    That certainly is the way I see it going. I guess the better question would be…”Where does Zullo really think he’s going with all this?”

  24. avatar
    CarlOrcas December 14, 2013 at 8:01 pm #

    gorefan: If I had to guess what it was, I would lean to the newspaper announcements. Other than the BC, they are the one piece of evidence cited by the media and Congress that sinks the birthers arguments every time.

    I looked and couldn’t find out the original source of the images we have seen. I suspect those papers are on microfilm in Honolulu somewhere.

    Who came up with the images, does anyone know?

  25. avatar
    Slartibartfast December 14, 2013 at 8:02 pm #

    The question here seems to be: is Zullo stupid enough to believe this or is he just a grifter?

    I don’t think you go wrong betting on Zullo’s stupidity—while he is clearly trying to grift birfer bux, he’s always seemed to be a true believer to me. I think there are visions of frogmarching (with him being the heroic frogmarcher) rather than a carefully calculated plan to get all the birfer bux he can.

    CarlOrcas: That certainly is the way I see it going. I guess the better question would be…”Where does Zullo really think he’s going with all this?”

  26. avatar
    Slartibartfast December 14, 2013 at 8:06 pm #

    I believe that there have been multiple microfilm sources obtained at various libraries. It would be interesting to know how many libraries keep microfilm records of old newspapers.

    CarlOrcas: I looked and couldn’t find out the original source of the images we have seen. I suspect those papers are on microfilm in Honolulu somewhere.

    Who came up with the images, does anyone know?

  27. avatar
    CarlOrcas December 14, 2013 at 8:11 pm #

    Slartibartfast: The question here seems to be: is Zullo stupid enough to believe this or is he just a grifter?

    Stupid or grifter? Oh, to choose!!

    Let’s make it easy: How about stupid grifter?

  28. avatar
    CarlOrcas December 14, 2013 at 8:15 pm #

    Slartibartfast:
    I believe that there have been multiple microfilm sources obtained at various libraries.It would be interesting to know how many libraries keep microfilm records of old newspapers.

    Good question. My guess is the answer is quite a few but what I’m interested in is the original source(s) of them in the context of this drama. Doc, do you know?

  29. avatar
    Slartibartfast December 14, 2013 at 8:16 pm #

    Sorry, I wasn’t clear. The choice is between “Stupid grifter” (i.e. a grifter who believes their own con) and “grifter”. Anyone who asks for money as much as Adjutant Field Martial Pro-Tem Zullo is clearly a grifter of some sort…

    CarlOrcas: Stupid or grifter? Oh, to choose!!

    Let’s make it easy: How about stupid grifter?

  30. avatar
    Slartibartfast December 14, 2013 at 8:18 pm #

    I think that LadyForest was one of the birthers that actually looked at the microfilm—you might try looking at her blog.

    CarlOrcas: Good question. My guess is the answer is quite a few but what I’m interesting in is the original source(s) of them in the context of this drama. Doc, do you know?

  31. avatar
    CarlOrcas December 14, 2013 at 8:27 pm #

    Slartibartfast:
    Sorry, I wasn’t clear.The choice is between “Stupid grifter” (i.e. a grifter who believes their own con) and “grifter”.Anyone who asks for money as much as Adjutant Field Martial Pro-Tem Zullo is clearly a grifter of some sort…

    Indeed he is!

  32. avatar
    CarlOrcas December 14, 2013 at 8:39 pm #

    Slartibartfast:
    I think that LadyForest was one of the birthers that actually looked at the microfilm—you might try looking at her blog.

    Here’s Doc’s writeup on the subject from April 2011:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/04/pen-spills-ink-makes-mess/

  33. avatar
    Paper December 14, 2013 at 10:35 pm #

    Nothing like job security?

    CarlOrcas: That’ll keep the birthers going for a couple centuries.

  34. avatar
    john December 14, 2013 at 10:46 pm #

    Reality Check:
    Zullo said something to the effect that “we are going to do it differently this time”. Reading between the lines what he is saying is that by putting their BS out there in news conferences it allowed “us” (meaning all of us who know the CCP is a complete farce) to completely pick apart the evidence. That culminated with the fiasco aka the Second CCP Press Conference last July. Zullo is still smarting from that one.

    I think Doc has captured the new strategy and the risks pretty well. Zullo is releasing none of this universe shattering new evidence and has set the earliest date for something to happen. This is after two or three rounds of “three to six months” and a complete pirouette from “this is not a criminal investigation we are taking this to Congress” back to “we don’t need Congress this is a criminal investigation” again.

    At this point I would have to question the mental stability of anyone who believes a word of what comes out of Zullo and Gallups’ mouths. Are you listening James Y.?

    I hear you RC. I do believe the birth certificate is a forgery and Zullo has the “Iron Clad” evidence. I can guess a few reasons why the BC is still a forgery not withstanding the Xerox evidence:
    1. Zullo may have got someone to talk who may have released internal memos or documentation regarding a coverup to forge the BC.
    2. Zullo has the Reed Hayes report – Because Reed Hayes is expert in handwriting, I suspect the focal point of the forgery deals with the signatures perhaps of the doctor’s or Dunham’s. Are they real or were they copied and pasted from a foreign source?
    3. Zullo ultilizing computer forensic resources of the Maricopa County Sheriff Office has determined evidence of forgery – perhaps forensic software has found evidence of Photoshop being used on the BC.

  35. avatar
    gorefan December 14, 2013 at 11:14 pm #

    Slartibartfast:
    I think that LadyForest was one of the birthers that actually looked at the microfilm—you might try looking at her blog.

    IIRC there weren’t that many, only maybe 10 to 15, libraries that carried microfilm copies of the 1961 Honolulu newspapers.

    That was one of the birthers points about switching out the microfilm rolls. And of coarse the master copy is controlled by individuals in on the conspiracy.

    As deparate as they are how quickly would they readily accept as real a copy of the August, 1961 papers without President Obama’s name in it?

    How big of bombshell would they consider it? Universe shattering?

    I’m just speculating.

  36. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 14, 2013 at 11:32 pm #

    1. Well I can’t think of any reason to think it’s a forgery.
    2. Since Hayes has no access to the originals, he wouldn’t be able to make a strong conclusion about handwriting. And besides, the Hayes report is nothing new, while the Posse is talking about new stuff.
    3. If the Sheriff’s office had any forensic competence, it would have shown itself before now. Neal Krawetz is a major expert on forensic software and he’s already said the certificate looks OK. The Xerox experiment has proven that the long form is a scan, so there can’t be any Photoshop remnants in it.

    I think you need a new theory.

    john: I hear you RC.I do believe the birth certificate is a forgery and Zullo has the “Iron Clad” evidence.I can guess a few reasons why the BC is still a forgery not withstanding the Xerox evidence:
    1.Zullo may have got someone to talk who may have released internal memos or documentation regarding a coverup to forge the BC.
    2.Zullo has the Reed Hayes report –Because Reed Hayes is expert in handwriting, I suspect the focal point of the forgery deals with the signatures perhaps of the doctor’s or Dunham’s.Are they real or were they copied and pasted from a foreign source?
    3.Zullo ultilizing computer forensic resources of the Maricopa County Sheriff Office has determined evidence of forgery – perhaps forensic software has found evidence of Photoshop being used on the BC.

  37. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 14, 2013 at 11:44 pm #

    The first one was first found by a blogger at the Texas Darlin blog (a birther blog at the time). The Honolulu Advertiser, one of the papers that carried the birth record published an article showing it’s record, I presume from its own copy. See:

    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2008/Nov/09/ln/hawaii811090361.html

    CarlOrcas: Who came up with the images, does anyone know?

  38. avatar
    justlw December 14, 2013 at 11:46 pm #

    john: I can guess a few reasons why the BC is still a forgery not withstanding the Xerox evidence:

    “Not withstanding” meaning in this context, “ignoring because it makes everything that follows irrelevant.”

    1. Zullo may have got someone to talk who may have released internal memos or documentation regarding a coverup to forge the BC.

    It’s probably worth noting at this point that Zullo has neither analyzed nor even seen the BC. All he has discussed is a PDF image of the BC, which we know cannot have been used to create other images of the BC which have been seen, so it is of no consequence whatsoever except in birthers’ fevered imaginations.

    2. Zullo has the Reed Hayes report – Because Reed Hayes is expert in handwriting, I suspect the focal point of the forgery deals with the signatures perhaps of the doctor’s or Dunham’s. Are they real or were they copied and pasted from a foreign source?

    …since, if any of his analysis has anything to do with all the minutiae of the PDF, it is of no consequence whatsoever. In this case, we’d have to return to the fact that the state of Hawaii has confirmed that the information released about the particulars of the president’s birth are accurate. And again, that pesky Constitution, which you’re so willing to throw under the bus. I ask again: why is that? What is it that makes you hate this country? Other than the BGitWH, that is?

    3. Zullo ultilizing computer forensic resources of the Maricopa County Sheriff Office has determined evidence of forgery – perhaps forensic software has found evidence of Photoshop being used on the BC.

    Neat trick. How’d he get the BC? Just to remind you, in case your attention span doesn’t extend as far back as the beginning of my comment: he’s only analyzed the PDF, which cannot be the source of other images of the BC that have been seen.

  39. avatar
    Slartibartfast December 14, 2013 at 11:50 pm #

    It’s always hard to think like a birther, but I can definitely believe that they would uncritically accept a vintage newspaper as real and believe that it was the smoking gun that proved everything they claim. It’s really too bad that they will never get the chance to prove their case in a court of law.

    gorefan: IIRC there weren’t that many, only maybe 10 to 15, libraries that carried microfilm copies of the 1961 Honolulu newspapers.

    That was one of the birthers points about switching out the microfilm rolls.And of coarse the master copy is controlled by individuals in on the conspiracy.

    As deparate as they are how quickly would they readily accept as real a copy of the August, 1961 papers without President Obama’s name in it?

    How big of bombshell would they consider it?Universe shattering?

    I’m just speculating.

  40. avatar
    CarlOrcas December 14, 2013 at 11:51 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    The first one was first found by a blogger at the Texas Darlin blog (a birther blog at the time). The Honolulu Advertiser, one of the papers that carried the birth record published an article showing it’s record, I presume from its own copy. See:

    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2008/Nov/09/ln/hawaii811090361.html

    Thanks. That settles that in my mind.

    Another dead end on the road to Birtherstan.

  41. avatar
    Slartibartfast December 14, 2013 at 11:54 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Thanks. That settles that in my mind.

    Another dead end on the road to Birtherstan.

    Birtherstan is all about the journey… in a land where all the roads are dead ends.

  42. avatar
    CarlOrcas December 15, 2013 at 12:06 am #

    john: I hear you RC.I do believe the birth certificate is a forgery and Zullo has the “Iron Clad” evidence.I can guess a few reasons why the BC is still a forgery not withstanding the Xerox evidence:
    1.Zullo may have got someone to talk who may have released internal memos or documentation regarding a coverup to forge the BC.
    2.Zullo has the Reed Hayes report –Because Reed Hayes is expert in handwriting, I suspect the focal point of the forgery deals with the signatures perhaps of the doctor’s or Dunham’s.Are they real or were they copied and pasted from a foreign source?
    3.Zullo ultilizing computer forensic resources of the Maricopa County Sheriff Office has determined evidence of forgery – perhaps forensic software has found evidence of Photoshop being used on the BC.

    And “perhaps” you “may have” just made up all that crap.

    You are indeed today’s man with no shame.

  43. avatar
    CarlOrcas December 15, 2013 at 12:12 am #

    Slartibartfast: Birtherstan is all about the journey… in a land where all the roads are dead ends.

    The problem is the roads are very long.

  44. avatar
    Daniel December 15, 2013 at 12:24 am #

    john: I can guess a few reasons why the BC is still a forgery

    The most glaring one being

    Because John reeeeeeeeaaaaaaallllllly needs it to be a forgery.

  45. avatar
    John Reilly December 15, 2013 at 1:13 am #

    John is a racist troll.

  46. avatar
    Curious George December 15, 2013 at 1:21 am #

    John
    “I hear you RC. I do believe the birth certificate is a forgery and Zullo has the “Iron Clad” evidence. I can guess a few reasons why the BC is still a forgery not withstanding the Xerox evidence:
    1. Zullo may have got someone to talk who may have released internal memos or documentation regarding a coverup to forge the BC.
    2. Zullo has the Reed Hayes report – Because Reed Hayes is expert in handwriting, I suspect the focal point of the forgery deals with the signatures perhaps of the doctor’s or Dunham’s. Are they real or were they copied and pasted from a foreign source?
    3. Zullo ultilizing computer forensic resources of the Maricopa County Sheriff Office has determined evidence of forgery – perhaps forensic software has found evidence of Photoshop being used on the BC.”

    All B.S.

  47. avatar
    Off Topic December 15, 2013 at 1:22 am #

    What’s good for the goose is good for the ganderer.

    The dear leader you’re relentlessly advocating for is pretty good at invisible evidence himself.

    Zullo says it’s a forgery; you claim it’s not. Who knows?! All we’re left with is your dear leader hiding the evidence that will solve the case. Invisible.

    For all the time you spend calling Zullo a liar you might consider your dear leader’s serial dishonesty in a few posts.

    Oh, well. At least you’re not going to run out of conspiracies to debunk anytime soon:

    http://thecommonsenseshow.com/2013/12/13/the-93-skeletons-in-obamas-closet/

    Happy Holidays.

  48. avatar
    CarlOrcas December 15, 2013 at 1:26 am #

    Off Topic: All we’re left with is your dear leader hiding the evidence that will solve the case

    What evidence is the President “hiding” that would “solve the case” to your satisfaction?

  49. avatar
    BillTheCat December 15, 2013 at 1:26 am #

    Off Topic:
    What’s good for the goose is good for the ganderer.

    The dear leader you’re relentlessly advocating for is pretty good at invisible evidence himself.

    Zullo says it’s a forgery; you claim it’s not. Who knows?!All we’re left with is your dear leader hiding the evidence that will solve the case. Invisible.

    For all the time you spend calling Zullo a liar you might consider your dear leader’s serial dishonesty in a few posts.

    Oh, well.At least you’re not going to run out of conspiracies to debunk anytime soon:

    http://thecommonsenseshow.com/2013/12/13/the-93-skeletons-in-obamas-closet/

    Happy Holidays.

    President Obama is a two-term President who will be in office until January 2017. And there is not a damn thing you can do about it.

    Happy Holidays! :)

  50. avatar
    Daniel December 15, 2013 at 1:33 am #

    Off Topic: The dear leader you’re relentlessly advocating for

    Who is advocating for him? Certainly not me. Of course you do realize that one doesn’t have to be an Obama supporter to oppose the sedition that is birtherism, right?

  51. avatar
    justlw December 15, 2013 at 1:38 am #

    Off Topic: The dear leader you’re relentlessly advocating for…

    If you were paying any attention, you’d know that a number of anti-birthers do not care for the president at all, in much the same way that I think that Ted Cruz is an awful, awful human being and would make a terrible president — yet I’ll defend from here to, uh, way over there, his right to run.

  52. avatar
    CarlOrcas December 15, 2013 at 1:48 am #

    justlw: If you were paying any attention

    What our Saturday evening troll doesn’t understand is that relentlessly advocating for the truth about Barack Obama is not the same thing as supporting him or his politics.

  53. avatar
    nbc December 15, 2013 at 2:18 am #

    Off Topic: Zullo says it’s a forgery; you claim it’s not. Who knows?! All we’re left with is your dear leader hiding the evidence that will solve the case. Invisible.

    On the contrary, he has made the evidence available for all. That’s the difference. Zullo’s claims are based on an argument from ignorance.

    Surely even you can appreciate the differences?

  54. avatar
    nbc December 15, 2013 at 2:20 am #

    Off Topic: For all the time you spend calling Zullo a liar you might consider your dear leader’s serial dishonesty in a few posts.

    Why? What does your beliefs about how our President is dishonest have anything to do with the honesty of Zullo?

    Man, logic is not your strongest suit, in fact, so far I am not very impressed by your claims and arguments.

    Which makes you the perfect birther… And which makes our lives so much easier.

  55. avatar
    Thinker December 15, 2013 at 3:08 am #

    Off Topic’s web site is funny. Orly’s friend Neil Sankey shows up in the comments and he believes the shit is going to hit the fan….any…..day….now. LOL. And there’s an ad for Holocaust doubter Jeff Rense–another friend of Orly Taitz–who thinks Adolph Hitler wasn’t such a bad guy. And the guy’s Breitbart conspiracy theory looks like something straight out of Butterdezillion’s diseased brain.

    The site has the usual wingnut bad grammar and punctuation, although it has a disturbing lack of eagles. All the best wingnut sites have eagles. This guy’s doesn’t.

  56. avatar
    nbc December 15, 2013 at 3:29 am #

    Thinker:
    Off Topic’s web site is funny. Orly’s friend Neil Sankey shows up in the comments and he believes the shit is going to hit the fan….any…..day….now. LOL.

    Poor Neil, he will have to wait and wait… In the mean time he will get more and more angry over nothing… Look at Charles Kerchner or Sharon Rondeau for example who, I believe, are becoming totally obsessed with conspiracies and show less and less ability to look at the data, facts and evidence.

  57. avatar
    Paper December 15, 2013 at 3:47 am #

    It’s just plain respect it is. As one might expect, he’s just not very keen on shattering the universe. Not for him, the Oppenheimer reflection “I am the destroyer of worlds.” He just seems very humbly to want proper, deserved credit for being able to shatter the universe (don’t think he couldn’t!), but without his heart really in it. He knows he personally can handle the truth, but also one would think he very well knows there are a lot of loose cannons out there, and apparently he just doesn’t want responsibility for the universe shattering chain reaction once such fissile minds get hold of this new potent, enriched evidence.

    Reality Check:

    Zullo is releasing none of this universe shattering new evidence…

  58. avatar
    Suranis December 15, 2013 at 5:54 am #

    I wonder to the birthers even realize they have been waiting for the new evidence that’s universe shattering for the better part of a year now?

  59. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 15, 2013 at 7:45 am #

    The “case” can never be solved because the investigators will not accept a negative result. Evidence really has no bearing on the question. Zullo is wrong because he has been proven to be both wrong and a liar.

    Off Topic:
    Zullo says it’s a forgery; you claim it’s not. Who knows?! All we’re left with is your dear leader hiding the evidence that will solve the case.

  60. avatar
    Curious George December 15, 2013 at 9:12 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The “case” can never be solved because the investigators will not accept a negative result. Evidence really has no bearing on the question. Zullo is wrong because he has been proven to be both wrong and a liar.

    And once a law enforcement officer’s credibility is broken (and Zullo is not a law enforcement officer, only a volunteer charity worker) his testimony and any developed, manufactured, invented, published or discovered evidence is absolutely suspect and worthless. Birthers are so stupid I can’t believe it!

  61. avatar
    JPotter December 15, 2013 at 10:19 am #

    Off Topic: The dear leader you’re relentlessly advocating for is pretty good at invisible evidence himself.

    Zullo says it’s a forgery; you claim it’s not. Who knows?! All we’re left with is your dear leader hiding the evidence that will solve the case. Invisible.

    First you say it’s “invisible”, then you say Zullo has declared something you say is invisible to be a forgery, and then you insist, again, that ‘it’s invisible.

    Soooo … are you alleging that Zullo is making his declarations based on something he can’t see?

    Meanwhile, Obama practices his magic act.

  62. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater December 15, 2013 at 11:54 am #

    Off Topic:
    What’s good for the goose is good for the ganderer.

    The dear leader you’re relentlessly advocating for is pretty good at invisible evidence himself.

    Zullo says it’s a forgery; you claim it’s not. Who knows?!All we’re left with is your dear leader hiding the evidence that will solve the case. Invisible.

    For all the time you spend calling Zullo a liar you might consider your dear leader’s serial dishonesty in a few posts.

    Oh, well.At least you’re not going to run out of conspiracies to debunk anytime soon:

    http://thecommonsenseshow.com/2013/12/13/the-93-skeletons-in-obamas-closet/

    Happy Holidays.

    There’s nothing common sense about a bunch of holocaust deniers, birthers, 9/11 truthers getting together and having a circle jerk on air. Zullo has presented nothing to date that can get around the issuing authority verifying the information:

    http://health.hawaii.gov/vitalrecords/faq-obama/
    http://www.azcentral.com/12news/Obama-Verification.pdf

  63. avatar
    JPotter December 15, 2013 at 12:59 pm #

    Off Topic: Oh, well. At least you’re not going to run out of conspiracies to debunk anytime soon:

    http://thecommonsenseshow.com/2013/12/13/the-93-skeletons-in-obamas-closet/

    Ah yes, where there’s smoke, there fire* … in a liar’s pants. Here’s some simple math fer ya:

    ∞ quantity • 0 quality = jack freakin’ squat

    ______________________

    * Or a Chauvet Fog Machine, take yer pick.

  64. avatar
    Butterfly Bilderberg December 15, 2013 at 8:21 pm #

    CarlOrcas:
    You can’t make this stuff up. (Or, at least, rational people can’t.)

    And if you tried and submitted it as a story treatment you’d be laughed out of Hollywood because it’s too stupid……..even for a Steven Segal movie.

    It might make a good story line for a Coen brothers movie, however. I picture Jeff Bridges reprising his role as Lebowski, who is erroneously fingered by Supreme Commander Lt. Zullo and must follow a trail of invisible evidence and silly clues to exonerate himself from false allegations of forgery, gun walking and Border Patrol drone incapacitation. The drug-addled dream sequence, complete with dancing pink underwear-clad jail inmates, would be a show stopper.

  65. avatar
    Keith December 15, 2013 at 11:09 pm #

    Butterfly Bilderberg: The drug-addled dream sequence, complete with dancing pink underwear-clad jail inmates, would be a show stopper.

    The Dude Abides.

  66. avatar
    Benji Franklin December 15, 2013 at 11:26 pm #

    Reality Check: Zullo is releasing none of this universe shattering new evidence

    That’s because Zullo tells three dimensional lies! it isn’t “universe shattering”, it isn’t “new”, and it isn’t “evidence”.

  67. avatar
    Off Topic December 16, 2013 at 2:40 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Dr. Conspiracy December 15, 2013 at 7:45 am(Quote) #
    The “case” can never be solved because the investigators will not accept a negative result.

    That’s what we in the business call unsubstantiated speculation.

    It does not not excuse the alleged perp from producing the evidence that he’s innocent.

  68. avatar
    Slartibartfast December 16, 2013 at 2:44 am #

    In America people are innocent until proven guilty. Why do you hate the Constitution?

    Off Topic: That’s what we in the business call unsubstantiated speculation.

    It does not not excuse the alleged perp from producing the evidence that he’s innocent.

  69. avatar
    Off Topic December 16, 2013 at 2:53 am #

    Until the evidence is produced it’s not unreasonable for people to conclude he’s guilty and that’s why he’s hiding the evidence.

    even a doctor of conspiracy can acknowledge that.

  70. avatar
    Keith December 16, 2013 at 3:15 am #

    Off Topic:
    Until the evidence is produced it’s not unreasonable for people to conclude he’s guilty and that’s why he’s hiding the evidence.

    Yes, it is unreasonable to assume guilt. Our system assumes innocence.

    Until YOUR evidence is produced, it is not unreasonable for people to conclude he’s INNOCENT.

    Why do you harbor such hatrid for the Constitution and the American Way?

  71. avatar
    The European December 16, 2013 at 4:36 am #

    Slartibartfast:
    In America people are innocent until proven guilty.Why do you hate the Constitution?

    That is one of the biggest misunderstandings of the law. It is true – but only in a court of criminal law, not in the court of public opinion

    Even if someone has been acquitted – dont you think of Mr. Simpson or Mr. Zimmerman as murderers and call them so ?

  72. avatar
    Slartibartfast December 16, 2013 at 4:42 am #

    That may be true, but accusations still carry no weight to rational, objective people until they are backed up with evidence.

    The European: That is one of the biggest misunderstandings of the law. It is true – but only in a court of criminal law, not in the court of public opinion

    Even if someone has been acquitted – dont you think of Mr. Simpson or Mr. Zimmerman as murderers and call them so ?

  73. avatar
    Keith December 16, 2013 at 5:46 am #

    The European: That is one of the biggest misunderstandings of the law. It is true – but only in a court of criminal law, not in the court of public opinion

    Your assertion is contradictory. First you say that folks misunderstand the law, then you say they do understand the law.

    Which is it?

    The ‘court of public opinion’ has nothing to do with the law.

  74. avatar
    Suranis December 16, 2013 at 6:48 am #

    Well here’s the problem

    You lot have produced your evidence, the rest of the world pointed out it proved diddly.

    Then you lot produced more of your evidence, the rest of the world pointed out it proved diddly.

    Then you lot produced more of your evidence, the rest of the world pointed out it proved diddly again.

    Now you lot aren’t producing your evidence anymore, but you are just assuring us it’s fabulous just like the rest of your evidence which proved didly.

    In the meantime Obama produced all the evidence to prove his eligibility. Twice.

    But he could end this tomorrow by producing a certified copy of his long form birth cert, right?

    Off Topic:
    Until the evidence is produced it’s not unreasonable for people to conclude he’s guilty and that’s why he’s hiding the evidence.

    even a doctor of conspiracy can acknowledge that.

  75. avatar
    The Magic M December 16, 2013 at 7:10 am #

    The European: That is one of the biggest misunderstandings of the law. It is true – but only in a court of criminal law, not in the court of public opinion

    The court of public opinion obviously overwhelmingly has ruled Obama is eligible – by voting for him twice (and even 99% of Romney voters did not vote for Romney because they thought Obama was ineligible), by not bothering to show up at any birther rally in the last 5 years etc.

    Birthers are like Orly who files dozens of “motions for reconsideration” in cases that have been closed long ago. Their case has been heard and deemed crap.

    Like true cranks, they are convinced that their sorry little lot are the only people who are “enlightened” and “literate” and “informed” enough to “understand”.

    Off Topic: Until the evidence is produced it’s not unreasonable for people to conclude he’s guilty

    Where’s the evidence you didn’t kill your neighbour? The court of public opinion is awaiting your defense.

  76. avatar
    The Magic M December 16, 2013 at 7:26 am #

    john: 1. Zullo may have got someone to talk who may have released internal memos or documentation regarding a coverup to forge the BC.

    If he did, why would he tip the conspirators off by making such outlandish claims? Surely he’d know better how to protect the life of an important informant?

    john:
    2. Zullo has the Reed Hayes report – Because Reed Hayes is expert in handwriting, I suspect the focal point of the forgery deals with the signatures perhaps of the doctor’s or Dunham’s. Are they real or were they copied and pasted from a foreign source?

    And handwriting expert would have no expertise in the “copy/paste” question because that is a pure digital issue. From looking at a scan, a handwriting expert will not be able to tell you if the signature was copy/pasted or stamped or handwritten (an important part of detecting forged signatures is looking at the pressure applied on different parts of the signature, impossible to do on a scan).
    The “best” he could do is to say “this scan looks too identical to the signature on another document, so it’s possible one is a copy of the other”, but you can never rule a signature fake by claiming “it’s impossible for two signatures to overlay perfectly” – with people signing their name thousands of times in their life, it’s rather highly improbable this never happens.
    Even if you disagree, it wouldn’t qualify as “universe-shattering” nor “convincing the greatest skeptic” because of what I just wrote.

    john: 3. Zullo ultilizing computer forensic resources of the Maricopa County Sheriff Office has determined evidence of forgery – perhaps forensic software has found evidence of Photoshop being used on the BC.

    Same as above. Even if Photoshop had somehow been involved in the processing of the PDF scan, it doesn’t prove forgery. The proverbial “greatest skeptic” would say “maybe they had to lighten up the scan because it was too dark”, and there goes your “100% proof of forgery”.

    See, we’re not talking about birther levels of “convincing” here where it suffices to shout “layers mean forgery!”. Zullo was clearly talking about convincing the greatest skeptics among non-birthers. So that possibility is out the window, too.

    There’s only a handful of things that would qualify for Zullo’s big claims:

    1. An authentic Kenyan (or other foreign) birth certificate certified by the issuing authorities (not some “smuggled out” crap like Smith’s BC that no hospital or state will officially authenticate).

    2. Someone with impeccable credentials testifying that and how he was directly involved in a forgery operation (that means not someone like Tim Adams who keeps referring to anonymous sources for his claims).

    3. Someone unearthing a “lost” SCOTUS ruling that clearly states you need two citizen parents.

    That’s all that I can think of right now. Anything else that comes to mind would maybe suffice for birthers to support their confirmation bias (e.g. “proof that Obama signed a greeting card as ‘Barry Soetoro’ when he was a student”) but would not “convince the greatest skeptic” that fraud/forgery occurred.

    Remember, that’s an extremely high bar that Zullo/Gallups set. So anything that would just make you go “hmmm, that’s odd, maybe there *is* something to it, we need to look further” will not cut it.

  77. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater December 16, 2013 at 8:50 am #

    Off Topic: That’s what we in the business call unsubstantiated speculation.

    It does not not excuse the alleged perp from producing the evidence that he’s innocent.

    It’s not unsubstantiated at all. Zullo has established a pattern of ignoring anything that backs up Obama. From the start he went to Jerome Corsi as his “head researcher”. He only uses birther sources he uses birther blogs for his research. He recycles claims from 6 months ago in the birther community. He goes on friendly radio shows with the same 3 hosts who coddle him. Zullo would never accept anything that wasn’t negative.

  78. avatar
    Curious George December 16, 2013 at 9:12 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: It’s not unsubstantiated at all. Zullo has established a pattern of ignoring anything that backs up Obama. From the start he went to Jerome Corsi as his “head researcher”. He only uses birther sources he uses birther blogs for his research. He recycles claims from 6 months ago in the birther community. He goes on friendly radio shows with the same 3 hosts who coddle him. Zullo would never accept anything that wasn’t negative.

    But, this is his convoluted way of “clearing the President,” don’t you know? It’s ALL Birther. It’s ALL political. It’s ALL for publicity for Shurf Joe. It’s ALL as fake as a three dollar bill. It ALL shows how easliy people can be manipulated.

  79. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 16, 2013 at 9:29 am #

    In the real world, releasing a birth certificate on national television and showing it physically to reporters is not “hiding the evidence.”

    Until you can get beyond this major flaw in your thinking, you are doomed to irrelevancy, and liable to ridicule.

    Off Topic: Until the evidence is produced it’s not unreasonable for people to conclude he’s guilty and that’s why he’s hiding the evidence.

  80. avatar
    The European December 16, 2013 at 5:33 pm #

    The Magic M: The court of public opinion obviously overwhelmingly has ruled Obama is eligible – by voting for him twice (and even 99% of Romney voters did not vote for Romney because they thought Obama was ineligible), by not bothering to show up at any birther rally in the last 5 years etc.

    No contest to that.

  81. avatar
    roxy7655 December 16, 2013 at 7:36 pm #

    Off Topic is a perfect example of erroneous Birfer thinking, of not grasping how things work in America: nobody needs to prove innocence. Their accuser is required to prove guilt.

    That’s Birfers’ kryptonite: they avoid at all costs admitting they have exactly zero evidence.

  82. avatar
    RanTalbott December 16, 2013 at 9:05 pm #

    The European: Even if someone has been acquitted – dont you think of Mr. Simpson or Mr. Zimmerman as murderers and call them so ?

    Actually, no.

    I think of OJ as “probably a murderer”, because I haven’t done a thorough-enough evaluation of all the evidence to come to a conclusion “beyond a reasonable doubt”. Frankly, I don’t care enough to do so: it was a horrific tragedy for Wallace and her loved ones, but it doesn’t have a broad impact on society.

    And I think of Zimmerman as “an angry, irresponsible asshole, probably racist, who (in the most likely scenario) decided to live out his vigilante fantasies, with tragic results”. If I knew what happened, I might have a very different opinion. But my best guess is that Martin thought he was being threatened, decided to resist, and Zimmerman escalated it fatally. That makes Zimmerman a “danegerous person”, who should have been convicted of manslaughter and lost his 2nd Amendment rights because he proved he couldn’t exercise them responsibly, but not a “murderer”.

  83. avatar
    RanTalbott December 16, 2013 at 9:56 pm #

    Slartibartfast: I have to admit that their behavior does seem to indicate that they think they’ve got something new

    But you also have to admit that they thought “they’ve got something” with the “African Anachronism”, the “Manual Coding Conflicts”, the “Mystery of the Layers”, the “Felonious Web Posting”, and every other idiotic bad guess they’ve made.

    As I’m fond of pointing out, the CCP is so technically and legally incompetent they make Inspector Clouseau look like Sherlock Holmes. Their team mascot should be Bullwinkle J. Moose in tails: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XPIa8weTgc

  84. avatar
    RanTalbott December 16, 2013 at 10:15 pm #

    Off Topic: Until the evidence is produced it’s not unreasonable for people to conclude he’s guilty and that’s why he’s hiding the evidence

    Not only is it “unreasonable”, it’s “unintelligent”, and even “un-American”.

    It shows that birthers, as a group, aren’t just stupid, they’re downright evil, with large numbers of them demanding that we abolish the rule of law, and basic norms of human decency. It’s become routine for them to advocate kanagroo courts, a military coup, and even assassination. All based on “evidence” that would embarrass an 8-year-old trying to shift the blame for breaking the neighbor’s window.

  85. avatar
    Slartibartfast December 16, 2013 at 11:07 pm #

    I completely agree. I believe they think they have something—but it’s a foregone conclusion that they’ve deluded themselves.

    RanTalbott: But you also have to admit that they thought “they’ve got something” with the “African Anachronism”, the “Manual Coding Conflicts”, the “Mystery of the Layers”, the “Felonious Web Posting”, and every other idiotic bad guess they’ve made.

  86. avatar
    Rickey December 16, 2013 at 11:39 pm #

    Off Topic:

    It does not not excuse the alleged perp from producing the evidence that he’s innocent.

    Pursuant to the 5th Amendment of the Constitution, an “alleged perp” has no obligation to prove his innocence. In fact, he has no obligation to produce any evidence at all.

    The burden of proof in this country is on the accuser. You birthers have had 5 1/2 years to prove that Obama was not born in Hawaii, and you’re no closer today than you were in 2008.

    Why do you hate the Constitution?

  87. avatar
    RanTalbott December 17, 2013 at 1:03 am #

    Off Topic: It does not not excuse the alleged perp from producing the evidence that he’s innocent.

    In fact, it does: your inability to produce anything other than “unsubstantiated speculation” not only “excuse[s] the alleged perp”, it also gives him the moral right to accuse you of lying, and the legal right to sue you for libel and/or slander (depending on the medium in which the “speculation” was presented).

  88. avatar
    JPotter December 17, 2013 at 1:52 am #

    Off Topic: It does not not excuse the alleged perp from producing the evidence that he’s innocent.

    Are you writing from another country? Your understanding of American jurisprudence is exactly backward. What you’re describing here, and in multiple ways in multiple comments, is guilty until proven innocent. You’re saying that the burden of proof lies on the accused, not the accuser. This is the base assumption of kangaroo courts. “Here prove you’re innocent of whatever we decide you’re guilty of. Oh, and should you somehow manage to do so, we’ll just make up something else for you to defend yourself against and start over. Shall we begin?”

    Here in America, the burden lies with the accuser, to prove a case against a defendant. If the accuser fails, the case is thrown out, the defendant need not bother to respond, as there is literally nothing of substance to respond to.

  89. avatar
    The Magic M December 17, 2013 at 4:09 am #

    The European: No contest to that.

    The problem with birthers is that they keep switching positions.

    When you tell them the law and the courts are against them, they refer to the “court of public opinion” where “enough people still have doubts”.
    When you point out how the “court of public opinion” has “ruled” against them in the elections, they croak “voting can’t change the law”.

    They just don’t realize they’ve lost on all fronts.

  90. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater December 17, 2013 at 8:32 am #

    RanTalbott: Not only is it “unreasonable”, it’s “unintelligent”, and even “un-American”.

    It shows that birthers, as a group, aren’t just stupid, they’re downright evil, with large numbers of them demanding that we abolish the rule of law, and basic norms of human decency. It’s become routine for them to advocate kanagroo courts, a military coup, and even assassination. All based on “evidence” that would embarrass an 8-year-old trying to shift the blame for breaking the neighbor’s window.

    But I saw Lizzie Proctor worshipping the devil!

  91. avatar
    nbc December 17, 2013 at 12:49 pm #

    Off Topic: It does not not excuse the alleged perp from producing the evidence that he’s innocent.

    Wow, you really do not understand how our legal system works. Why you have no respect for our Constitution and laws is beyond me.

    And so far, our President has provided us with all the evidence that shows that the Cold case posse and birthers are ‘full of it’… But the birthers are unwilling to accept any evidence that shows his innocence as their minds have been closed…

  92. avatar
    Off Topic December 19, 2013 at 2:42 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy December 16, 2013 at 9:29 am (Quote) #
    “In the real world, releasing a birth certificate on national television and showing it physically to reporters is not “hiding the evidence.”

    Until you can get beyond this major flaw in your thinking, you are doomed to irrelevancy, and liable to ridicule.”
    —–
    In the real world, offering a facsimile of evidence is not presenting evidence. It is hiding evidence.

    Until doctors of conspiracy realize this, they are doomed to be thought of as simpletons, and will be disregarded.

    seewamsayin??

  93. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 19, 2013 at 10:58 am #

    Yes, I see what you are saying quite plainly: You are trying to evade the facts and raise a spurious claim.

    First your remark is factually wrong. The actual certified copy from the State of Hawaii, stamped and sealed–not a “facsimile,” was shown to the press. They were able to handle it and photograph it. Later there was a televised press conference and a copy of it was posted on the White House web site.

    And as further confirmation of what happened, the Hawaii Department of Health maintains a link to the White House web page where the certificate appears, and says of it:

    On April 27, 2011 President Barack Obama posted a certified copy of his original Certificate of Live Birth.

    Exactly who do you think the President is hiding his document from? The press is the representative of the population at large. No judicial or legislative body has said they wanted to see it.

    I simply reject your “hiding” claim as meaningless propaganda.

    Off Topic:
    Dr. Conspiracy December 16, 2013 at 9:29 am(Quote) #
    “In the real world, releasing a birth certificate on national television and showing it physically to reporters is not “hiding the evidence.”

    Until you can get beyond this major flaw in your thinking, you are doomed to irrelevancy, and liable to ridicule.”
    —–
    In the real world, offering a facsimile of evidence is not presenting evidence. It is hiding evidence.

    Until doctors of conspiracy realize this, they are doomed to be thought of as simpletons, and will be disregarded.

    seewamsayin??

  94. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater December 19, 2013 at 11:35 am #

    Off Topic: In the real world, offering a facsimile of evidence is not presenting evidence. It is hiding evidence.
    Until doctors of conspiracy realize this, they are doomed to be thought of as simpletons, and will be disregarded.
    seewamsayin??

    Simpletons such as yourself who keep denying reality? The issuing authority has verified the document several times including to the Secretary of State of Arizona as well as to the court in Mississippi. The long form was presented to the press in 2011 where it was felt handled and photographed. Before that the official birth certificate that Hawaii currently uses was posted in 2008 where it was also handled and photographed by two independent organizations. The president is hiding nothing. Where were your complaints when Bill Clinton didn’t present his publicly or George W. Bush or Jimmy Carter, etc.

  95. avatar
    Paper December 19, 2013 at 11:37 am #

    One can only hope so, because being disregarded by a birther is a g-dsend, and being called a simpleton by a birther is an honor. You are extremely kind to offer such well wishes!

    Off Topic:

    Until doctors of conspiracy realize this, they are doomed to be thought of as simpletons, and will be disregarded.