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Forensically speaking

I was reading Douglas Vogt’s petition to the Supreme Court and noticed this sentence (presumably ghost-written by Montgomery Blair Sibley).

Attached to the Notice of Commission was Vogt’s publicly-available, 95 page affidavit in which he demonstrated forensically the existence of twenty (20) separate points of forgery in the Certificate of Live Birth (“COLB”) of Barack Hussein Obama, II (“Obama”).

Forensics is a science, the scientific method of gathering and examining information about the past, a discipline that to my knowledge Vogt has never practiced nor received training in. Vogt’s affidavit doesn’t cite any published works on forensic science, nor does he allude to having any background whatsoever in questioned document examination. He is a self-made expert. Indeed Vogt expresses disdain for the forensic certification, characterizing it as meaningless at Birther Report:

Paul Irey and myself have over 83 years experience in the graphics/type and scanner business. A forensic document examiner takes a course over the internet, pays $800 and 98% of them pass and get the certificate. I had to send my chapter on evidence of computer manipulation to the Arizona Sheriffs office who sent it to Reed Hayes so he would learn more about Photoshop and how Adobe created the JBIG2 compression layer. He did not know it. He is a hand writing expert and worse yet he only worked from the PDF copy that there was no chain of custody. He is NOT an expert on type and what Paul and I covered in my affidavits.

It serves Vogt’s purpose to make sweeping generalized aspersions about document examiners and their qualifications, because Vogt himself has no such qualifications. It is true that there are forensic certification diploma mills, but the organization certifying Reed Hayes is not one of them, nor is the American Board of Forensic Document Examiners that requires, for example, an undergraduate degree plus two years of full-time training at an accredited forensic laboratory and current employment in the field, and in order to apply to take oral, written and practical certification tests, must provide references from three certified examiners. In short, Douglas Vogt could not become ABFDE certified.

Vogt himself seems to have been completely unaware of JBIG2 compression until the anti-birthers told him about it (it is completely absent from his earlier reports) and he certainly has no “chain of custody” associated with his puttering around. Given that Obama’s birth certificate appears to the first document Vogt has ever examined “forensically,” I would think it fair to call him a “beginner” rather than an “expert.”

The reason that Vogt is not an expert, and the reason he is not qualified to make the claims he does is:

  • Vogt uses no recognized methodology: he makes it up as he goes along
  • Vogt cites no recognized authority
  • Vogt doesn’t look at evidence objectively, discarding, for example, any published birth certificate that contradicts his numbering theories
  • Vogt freely misrepresents regulations and statutes to try to prove false statements.
  • Vogt has no prior experience in examining forgeries.
  • Vogt has never even taken so much as a single course in forensic document science.

Judge Malihi, an administrative law judge in Georgia, summed it up in his decision in the case of Farrar v. Obama, speaking of Douglas Vogt and Felicito Papa:

neither witness was properly qualified or tendered as an expert in birth records, forged documents or document manipulation

As for Paul Irey, he said that he was certain Obama’s birth certificate was fake before he looked at and was just trying to justify that belief–he lacks scientific objectivity. Here’s a section from the transcript of Irey’s appearance on Reality Check Radio:

Irey: … I started to study it, knowing it had to be a forgery, and just looking for what I could find.
Foggy: You knew it was a forgery before you started studying it?…
Irey: Yes, yes. I knew it was a forgery.
Foggy: How’d you know that?
Irey: I had information from a government worker who had a friend at one of the agencies who come back to me after we had a big debate during the time Obama had been, uh, announced for office [inaudible] legitimacy, where’s the birth certificate? We were talking about that way back when, and he debated with me. Went down to his agency and advised me that, uh, that I was right basically. That there was no birth certificate in the records. But his agency was not going to, uh, do anything about it more or less. So I kind of went in with his background. It sort of converted his attitude. I could tell how his attitude changed after that, because he was no longer supporting Obama. I was supporting Colin Powell….
Foggy: I’m not asking you to identify the guy, but can you tell us like what agency? Was it an intelligency agency? I mean can you give us a hint?
Irey: Yes, I can. It was the Secret Service.
Foggy: OK
Irey: As you know, the Secret Service is, one of their responsibilities is to vet. …

Of course, the Secret Service doesn’t vet presidential candidates, and there is no reason that they would have a birth certificate in their files for any of them.

Irey’s analysis consists primarily of blown up copies of typewritten text. Irey claims 57 years experience in typesetting, but nothing in his report is about typesetting; it is about typewriters, and Irey describes his typewriter experience as: I’m also four years experience in typing with a typewriter (Taitz v. Elections Commission testimony). Irey also says that he used Photoshop from the beginning, but the best Irey could hope to  do with such expertise would be to show that the White House PDF could have been created by Photoshop, not that it wasn’t created by something else, like a Xerox WorkCentre 7655. (I should add that no birther has ever produced a fake birth certificate using Photoshop that has all of the characteristics of Obama’s certificate.) Irey has no experience with the electronic format of a PDF so as to find any unique signature of Photoshop.

Vogt’s Supreme Court petition will be denied.

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25 Responses to Forensically speaking

  1. avatar
    The European May 2, 2014 at 2:39 pm #

    Mr. Vogt(lander)

    ” offers 60 major scientific discoveries or reinterpretations and 60 major Biblical discoveries. He is the first in 2595 years to discover where the real Mount Sinai was located including all the altars Moses describes in the Torah”

    Someone needs more to identify a kook ?

  2. avatar
    RanTalbott May 2, 2014 at 4:00 pm #

    He is a self-made expert.

    No, he’s a self-proclaimed expert.

    What he’s “self-made” is a fool.

  3. avatar
    sactosintolerant May 2, 2014 at 4:21 pm #

    “I had to send my chapter on evidence of computer manipulation to the Arizona Sheriffs office who sent it to Reed Hayes so he would learn more about Photoshop and how Adobe created the JBIG2 compression layer. He did not know it.”

    This makes me even more skeptical that the Hayes report will be released, even in book form.

  4. avatar
    bob May 2, 2014 at 5:14 pm #

    Vogt seems completely unaware there is a boatload of case law on what an expert is. And the criteria required to qualify as an expert for court proceedings.

    If a court doesn’t recognize Vogt as an expert, his opinion matters only to birthers.

  5. avatar
    RanTalbott May 2, 2014 at 5:19 pm #

    bob:

    If a court doesn’t recognize Vogt as an expert, his opinion matters only to birthers.

    I know he was specifically rejected as one in the Georgia case, and I _think_ he also tried and failed in Indiana.

  6. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 2, 2014 at 6:52 pm #

    In administrative law courts in Georgia, unqualified persons can give testimony and the judge can decide what to accept and what to reject. Orly was allowed to take testimony from all of her witnesses in the Farrar case. In his opinion Malihi wrote, the unqualified testimony of the witness [is] not competent evidence. He said: neither witness was properly qualified or tendered as an expert in birth records, forged documents or document manipulation.

    The judge further wrote:

    The Court finds testimony of the witnesses, as well as the exhibits tendered, to be of little, if any, probative value, and thus wholly insufficient to support Plaintiffs’ allegations.

    See also:

    - http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/02/malihi-obama-eligible/
    - http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/02/did-douglas-vogt-commit-perjury/

    Vogt didn’t testify in Indiana, but Irey did. Defense objected to Orly’s “expert witnesses” with the judge stating that she would rule after they testified. Instead, the Judge vacated the entire hearing.

    RanTalbott: I know he was specifically rejected as one in the Georgia case, and I _think_ he also tried and failed in Indiana.

  7. avatar
    alg May 2, 2014 at 7:01 pm #

    “Vogt’s Supreme Court petition will be denied.”
    In many respects it already has been. They’re just going through the motions.

  8. avatar
    RanTalbott May 2, 2014 at 7:42 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The Court finds testimony of the witnesses, as well as the exhibits tendered, to be of little, if any, probative value

    An unfortunate choice of words, since Farrar is clinging like a shipwreck survivor to the fact that Malihi didn’t say “no probative value”, claiming that “little, if any” should have beaten the empty table.

  9. avatar
    Arthur B. May 2, 2014 at 9:48 pm #

    RanTalbott: An unfortunate choice of words, since Farrar is clinging like a shipwreck survivor to the fact that Malihi didn’t say “no probative value”, claiming that “little, if any” should have beaten the empty table.

    David’s totally in a dream world on this one. In actuality, he was beaten not by an empty table but rather by prima facie evidence. David discounts that by turning the definition of prima facie on its head, making the absurd claim that prima facie evidence lacks “probative value” unless and until it has been corroborated by independent sources.

    See, if you think that way, the birth certificates are worth nothing. Therefore, “little, if any” wins!

    Easy peasy.

  10. avatar
    J.D. Sue May 2, 2014 at 10:41 pm #

    It is so annoying, isn’t it? It takes a lot of nerve (or a lot of something) to: (1) not take the time and sweat to study and learn a discipline, (2) minimize and mock people who have taken the time and sweat to do so, (3) do a little unguided study, just enough to be dangerous, and then (4) proclaim oneself an expert in the discipline and the ultimate authority of the case at hand, while continuing to minimize and mock……

    Whether it’s forensics or lawyering, this is what birthers do. Very annoying.

    In any event, that approach won’t get much rhythm in a Court of law for reasons that Doc stated.

    p.s. IMHO, MBS’s reference to a “95 page affidavit” is not very artful. Before he ever got the the S. Ct., he should have redrafted his client’s affidavit into a real legal-like affidavit consisting of something much less than 95 pages. In the Court, VOLUME is not a virtue–it’s just a lot of reading for very busy clerks/Justices…., Like I said, very annoying.

  11. avatar
    The European May 3, 2014 at 4:19 am #

    /snark on

    I understand Mr. Vogt(lander). When a jury of laypeople can decide a patent-infringement case, why should he as a layman not evaluate a forgery claim ?

    http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_25687468/apple-vs-samsung-jury-delivers-mixed-verdict-patent

  12. avatar
    RanTalbott May 3, 2014 at 5:08 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Vogt didn’t testify in Indiana, but Irey did

    Do I recall correctly that Irey tried to get himself accepted as “expert” in _both_ typewriters and typography, and the judge said “yes” and “no”, respectively?

  13. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 3, 2014 at 8:57 am #

    Irey’s testimony begins on page 93 of the Unofficial Transcript

    Judge Reid said that Irey might reasonably be considered an expert in typesetting based on his long experience doing that, and suggesting that he should be able to identify type.

    However, Irey was not testifying about the typeset portion of the document, but the typewritten text, and Irey gives this as his qualification as an expert on typewriting: “I’m also four years experience in typing with a typewriter.” Taitz kept saying “based on your experience in typesetting” but asking questions about things not typeset.

    I couldn’t find in that circus of a hearing a clear statement from Judge Reid that Irey wasn’t qualified on typewriting. It might have been in there.

    RanTalbott: Do I recall correctly that Irey tried to get himself accepted as “expert” in _both_ typewriters and typography, and the judge said “yes” and “no”, respectively?

  14. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 3, 2014 at 9:06 am #

    The article has been updated to add:

    Irey’s analysis consists primarily of blown up copies of typewritten text. Irey claims 57 years experience in typesetting, but nothing in his report is about typesetting; it is about typewriters, and Irey describes his typewriter experience as: I’m also four years experience in typing with a typewriter (Taitz v. Elections Commission testimony). Irey also says that he used Photoshop from the beginning, but the best Irey could hope to do with such expertise would be to show that the White House PDF could have been created by Photoshop, not that it wasn’t created by something else, like a Xerox WorkCentre 7655. Irey has no experience with the electronic format of a PDF so as to find any unique signature of Photoshop.

  15. avatar
    Notorial Dissent May 3, 2014 at 9:27 am #

    Doc, loved your very clear and reasoned response to an otherwise silly proposition. Just made their nonsense all the more obvious, and blew great big gaping holes in their carefully crafted fantasy.

    The only thing that Irey could possibly opine on would have been the fonts used on the birth certificate, and even then I would not extend him too much credit. So he used a typewriter for 4 years, I’ve used one since I was probably 10, and I wouldn’t make any assumptions based on it other than taking a document in and out of a typewriter will result in things not lining up evenly or well at all. Ask any old time legal secretary and they’ll tell you that moving a document from one machine to another is a 4 star gold plated b***h. Beyond that Irey’s got nuthin’.

    Vogt is even worse, he may have years and years of selling copiers, but I don’t see or have seen any evidence that he has more than a minimal understanding of how they work and what they do. He may well be able to sell lots of them to the gullible who know even less about it than he does, but that does not make him a copier expert. All he has proven is that if it entails pressing more than one button he is lost. I would come closer to believing and trusting the 18 yr old working at Kinko’s who does specialty copying to not only know how to do something, but to actually explain what I was seeing if there was something out of the ordinary, or to do anything special that I wanted.

    Between them, neither Irey nor Vogt bring ANY expertise to the table that amounts to anything, or would stand up in court. Neither of them are qualified or have the first clue about what a forensics analyst does or would need to do in a situation, and they both went in to it with a pre conceived notion of what they wanted to prove, so hardly rational or objective.

    The fact that they are basing all of this on a multi-generational COPY simply goes to provide the last and final proof that they are both frauds, the copy can only tell them whether it is a good or bad copy and that is just about it.

    Irey’s claim of having gotten information from a Secret Service agent, is just a flat out lie. They are notoriously closed mouthed about everything having to do with the President in particular, and everything else in general, and there is no reason one of them would be talking to Irey, except maybe in connection with his outside activities, and they certainly wouldn’t be gossiping with him.

    I think even calling either of them “beginners” is giving them more credit than they warrant.

    Really loved the article. Doubt it went over well on the receiving end though.

  16. avatar
    The Magic M May 3, 2014 at 9:42 am #

    I had to send my chapter on evidence of computer manipulation to the Arizona Sheriffs office who sent it to Reed Hayes so he would learn more about Photoshop and how Adobe created the JBIG2 compression layer. He did not know it.

    As I’ve said, my suspicion is that the Hayes report is mainly of the sort “I’ve looked at all the experts – like Vogt, Irey, Zebest – telling me how this and that is a sign of forgery and I cannot refute them, therefore forgery”.
    It’s the only plausible reason it hasn’t been published, not even quoted from except for 2 sentences out of 40 pages. The typical “hearsay expert” we’ve come to love from birthers.

  17. avatar
    OllieOxenFree May 3, 2014 at 11:33 am #

    Irey: I had information from a government worker who had a friend at one of the agencies who come back to me after we had a big debate during the time Obama had been, uh, announced for office [inaudible] legitimacy, where’s the birth certificate? We were talking about that way back when, and he debated with me. Went down to his agency and advised me that, uh, that I was right basically. That there was no birth certificate in the records. But his agency was not going to, uh, do anything about it more or less. So I kind of went in with his background. It sort of converted his attitude. I could tell how his attitude changed after that, because he was no longer supporting Obama. I was supporting Colin Powell….

    So his informant, who was a “government worker,” had a friend who was in the Secret Service, who went to his “agency” after having a debate with Irey, and looked up records and determined there was no birth certificate, and then returned to report this to Irey?

    What a complete and total cobbled together fabrication. This is a lie from the top down. Then he throws in Colin Powell as if to say… “see, I would have voted for a black man,” while avoiding the entire argument that Powell endorsed Obama in 2008 and declined to run himself, so what exactly was he supporting Colin Powell for?

  18. avatar
    John Reilly May 3, 2014 at 12:20 pm #

    OllieOxenFree: So his informant, who was a “government worker,” had a friend who was in the Secret Service, who went to his “agency” after having a debate with Irey, and looked up records and determined there was no birth certificate, and then returned to report this to Irey?

    What a complete and total cobbled together fabrication.This is a lie from the top down.Then he throws in Colin Powell as if to say… “see, I would have voted for a black man,” while avoiding the entire argument that Powell endorsed Obama in 2008 and declined to run himself, so what exactly was he supporting Colin Powell for?

    Taking his story as true, the original witness asked the Secret Service if it had a copy of Pres. Obama’s birth certificate in its files. The Secret Service truthfully reported that it did not.

    The problem with Mr. Irey’s story is that he has drawn a conclusion based on a total misunderstanding (benign) or twisting (venal) of a story based upon triple hearsay.

    Just the sort of guy on whom you would like to rely.

  19. avatar
    Bonsall Obot May 3, 2014 at 12:22 pm #

    I would venture to say that the Secret Service does not have billions upon billions of birth certificates in their files, since birth certificates are none of their concern.

  20. avatar
    Thomas Brown May 3, 2014 at 12:55 pm #

    But three lexi-points to Doc for “…sweeping generalized aspersions…”

  21. avatar
    roadburner May 3, 2014 at 1:18 pm #

    The Magic M: As I’ve said, my suspicion is that the Hayes report is mainly of the sort “I’ve looked at all the experts – like Vogt, Irey, Zebest – telling me how this and that is a sign of forgery and I cannot refute them, therefore forgery”.
    It’s the only plausible reason it hasn’t been published, not even quoted from except for 2 sentences out of 40 pages. The typical “hearsay expert” we’ve come to love from birthers.

    i was in the process of having evicerated irey and vogt´s `expertise´ on that BR thread and was in the process of giving them the real story of reed hayes when bob banned me ´(again)

    i was debunking the `reed hayes worked for perkins cole´ meme, explaining that he worked for someone who had worked for perkins cole, and that to claim reed hayes therefor had worked for perkins-cole was like the poster selling a handgun FTF to a retired navy SEAL, and then claiming he was an arms supplier for the SEALS.

    obviously a language they understand, and so banned and previous posts erased.

    from the level of censorship over there now and the pletora of `filler´ articles that say pretty much nothing, it looks like bob is getting a bit panicy about nothing bearing fruit.

  22. avatar
    Majority Will May 3, 2014 at 2:37 pm #

    roadburner: i was in the process of having evicerated irey and vogt´s `expertise´ on that BR thread and was in the process of giving them the real story of reed hayes when bob banned me ´(again)

    i was debunking the `reed hayes worked for perkins cole´ meme, explaining that he worked for someone who had worked for perkins cole, and that to claim reed hayes therefor had worked for perkins-cole was like the poster selling a handgun FTF to a retired navy SEAL, and then claiming he was an arms supplier for the SEALS.

    obviously a language they understand, and so banned and previous posts erased.

    from the level of censorship over there now and the pletora of `filler´ articles that say pretty much nothing, it looks like bob is getting a bit panicy about nothing bearing fruit.

    Bigoted morons are easily frightened. Their annual Depends budget could support a small nation.

  23. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 3, 2014 at 2:58 pm #

    I actually spent some time on that one.

    Thomas Brown:
    But three lexi-points to Doc for “…sweeping generalized aspersions…”

  24. avatar
    donna May 3, 2014 at 5:47 pm #

    Terrible news: Nathan Trapuzzano, son in law of patriot Karl Swihart was robbed and killed

    It was my honor to represent a great patriot, Karl Swihart, in the state of Indiana in a challenge against Obama. (local civil litigation attorney was a pro hac vice sponsor) Judge Reid held a trial and allowed the testimony of expert Paul Irey, who provided undeniable evidence that Obama’s BC is a crude forgery , however after the trial Judge Sherry Reid retroactively ruled that she did not have jurisdiction in the first place and she dismissed the case based on lack of jurisdiction and quickly retired from the bench.

    http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/terrible-news-nathan-trapuzzano-son-in-law-of-patriot-karl-swihart-was-robb

    comments:

    is this a Loretta Fuddy type death??? the Obama regime is so corrupt that everything is suspect-

    There is more to this story. I know you will find the truth:
    Nathan was obviously killed as retaliation for Karl’s association with you. None of us are safe now. Obama’s secret Muslim militias are starting to target are friends and familys. This is only the beginning. When you get elected in California, please prosecute Obama for this highness act of barberism.

    I disagree. My gut tells me whoever killed this guy is the SAME GUY who was messing with your car. This murder was meant as a warning. These people don’t want you to run for office because they know you will be a major threat to liberals in California which is the capital of liberalism. Once you break the liberals in California, the rest of the states will follow and then you’ll be well-known by everyone and can run for President and win! They know this and are afraid! You should be careful! We need you!

  25. avatar
    bovril May 4, 2014 at 5:56 am #

    @Roadburner

    Yes it seems like BR/ORYR is in a frenzy of censorship right….I have tried via a variety of means to explain to everyone fave muppet Ole Fakin that his best and most trusted buddy Trey (not a real name) Gowdy ain’t a birther.

    Alas every post rapidly hits /dev/null so no enlightenment….😡