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Privacy and the birthers

This site has an editorial policy, and I will reiterate part of it here:

Posting personal information about private individuals is prohibited.

There are two phrases in the policy that I want to talk about in this article: “personal information” and “private individuals.”

A public person is someone who does something quite visible under their actual identity. Joe Arpaio and Mike Zullo are public people. Jerome Corsi and Jack Cashill are public people. The blogger that goes under the name “Birther Report” is not because he doesn’t run his web site under an actual identity.

An ambiguity arises when a public person tries to keep information private and the reason for the article is my thinking about Mike Zullo. According to a complaint filed with the Arizona Corporations Commission, it appears that Mike Zullo is trying to keep his home address a secret (and perhaps illegally). Zullo’s home address is no business of mine and I’m not going to publish it here, or allow it in comments. Some items in the public record about Zullo’s family are equally off limits. On the other hand, his employment history is definitely relevant and appropriate for discussion here.

What I have been beating around the bush about is my strong belief that the commenter named “Joe Mannix” at Birther Report is Mike Zullo. I think this identification is relevant. As soon as I first saw the Mannix persona, I thought it was a “detective wannabe” kind of name. The reason that I believe this is Zullo is the authoritative tone that the Mannix character takes when representing the CCP, which is the primary thing he talks about. Take, for instance in these point by point responses to Foggy’s ant hill poking:

"The feds know exactly what A/Z have"—not true!
"I read some of the the transcripts myself in D.C. yesterday"–not true!
"If A/Z didn’t want me to know, they should have had secure communications."–not true!
"A/Z think what they have is "universe-shattering," but the feds are ready to destroy it—They won’t
"Nobody will ever vote for Arpaio again, after all this hits the fan."–not true!
"Bring it, Sheriff Joe. Just bring it."–He will!
"What are you afraid of?–Nothing!
"Release your evidence and see what happens, heh heh."–In good time!
"The feds don’t want to stop the investigation."–not true!
"They want A/Z to hold the press conference TODAY and show everything they have."–not true!”

or this:

"They spent too much time bragging and not enough time releasing what they had, and now it’s too late."
No it’s not.

Here, we see a convenient lie given as a straw man argument that anti-birther predictions that no universe-shattering evidence will appear:

They said there would never be a first press conference too. They were wrong.

And here is one where Mannix puts himself as an authoritative voice on investigations:

You have no idea what you’re talking about Ruben. You don’t know how criminal investigations are run. The time and patience it takes to gather evidence and cross verify through many leads and then put timelines together is delicate and painstaking. Case in point…..mob investigations. To get evidence on many mobsters or their henchmen took many months or years of interviews while eavesdropping on suspects, collecting evidence and also striking deals with witnesses to testify in order to get a conviction. This is no different except we are dealing with the ‘alleged’ president and the people who had this document forged. You never release damning evidence when a case is not closed, especially during this second criminal phase of the investigation. Sheriff Arpaio and the CCP know exactly what they are doing. Be patient and stop being pessimistic.

How could anyone outside the CCP claim to know the following since Mike Zullo never said publically that he got the codes from Lee:

"Lee said they were Hawaii’s codes, which were not in line with anything else."
That is correct!

Here is Mannix  taking sides in the Zullo v. Vogt contest:

The difference between Reed Hayes and Doug Vogt is that Hayes is court recognized when it comes to forensic computer-generated document and handwriting attestations. Vogt is not.

Mannix points to a Zullo video:

Mr. Zullo is not a liar. Hawaii had their own seperate (sic) code manual prior to becoming a state. Verna K. Lee verified she used those codes. The CCP also has in possession two Hawaiian birth certificates from 1961 that reveal that the term ‘Negro’ was used for black babies instead of the term ‘African’. Mike Zullo explains:

Everybody please watch for educational purposes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BMOw8tqooc

And last but not least, Joe Mannix admits that he, like Zullo, used to live in New Jersey:

Off topic, I find this terribly alarming coming from the former state I used to live in.
NJ Senate Passes .22 Rifle Ban, Magazine Ban By 22 To 17 Vote

Mannix ran away from this exchange, when I got the goods on Zullo and his fake codes.

If Mannix is indeed Zullo, then we have a big hint about the Reed Hayes report (note use of first name):

"You mean there is something wrong with signatures.?"
Of course. Reed is a master at detecting forgeries, especially when people try to mimic other peoples signatures on such things such as checks or birth certificates as in this case. He detects anomalies in forged signatures the average person can’t recognize.He immediately knew something was wrong after looking at the document hence why he called Mike back within 20 minutes.

Here is Mannix’ Intense Debate Profile with quick access to all his comments.

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244 Responses to Privacy and the birthers

  1. avatar
    Jim May 19, 2014 at 6:51 pm #

    Hey Joe! Didn’t anybody ever tell you real police investigations INTERVIEW EYEWITNESSES? Because, sometimes, they have information they didn’t know they had when interviewed by a REAL INVESTIGATOR! That was the giveaway that this wasn’t real, or even an investigation. They’re leaving you in droves now, no longer waiting breathlessly for you…they’ve given up on you! If you don’t release something soon, the only people that will care will be your team of Falcon, Gallups and you.

    Hi Mike! Hi Falcon! Hi Carl! May your scam forever RIP. :D

  2. avatar
    wrecking ball May 19, 2014 at 7:16 pm #

    “joe mannix” is not zullo ( altho i wish he was ). i’ve been debating him on the city-data forum for years. he’s used multiple late 60’s early 70’s “crime fighter” personas ( steve mcgarrett, britt reid, etc ). frank arduini can back me on this one. his identity is known ( altho i will not share it ).

  3. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 19, 2014 at 7:22 pm #

    Wouldn’t that be a hoot, if it turns out that he’s our very own John too?

  4. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 19, 2014 at 8:27 pm #

    Sure it’s the same Joe Mannix? And does the New Jersey clue fit your guy?

    wrecking ball: i’ve been debating him on the city-data forum for years.

  5. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich May 19, 2014 at 8:29 pm #

    If my latest gambit was helpful in smoking out Joe Mannix and it turns out he’s really Zullo, I’m very happy about that. What I did was in the nature of an experiment by taking a different tack. I had no idea of exposing Zullo as a contributor to Birther Report. My point was that nobody on our side of the birther issues is afraid of Sheriff Joe or Zullo. I really do plan to continue demanding that they hold their news conference, release their evidence, and face the consequences for that.

    President Obama has nothing to lose, of course. He’s legitimate and eligible and a natural born citizen. No evidence, no matter how “universe-shattering” Zullo thinks it is, will change that one iota.

    Of course, I seriously doubt that anyone in the White House or the Justice Department has any idea who Mike Zullo is, or that the birthers think he’s going to release some sort of evidence that will bring down the president. You know me well enough, Doc, to know that nobody “instructs” me about how to handle myself when dealing with the birthers. For better or worse, I march to my own drumbeat.

    I’m going to look more closely at Joe Mannix’s posts, but so far I’d say your evidence is very, very strong. I know you think you identified Falcon’s real name, too. On that one, we’ll just have to agree to disagree for now; I don’t think we’ve really nailed that one down sufficiently to say it’s proven. I myself have identified the owner of Birther Report as Bob Nelson of North Carolina, but lately I’ve had second thoughts about that as well. I don’t like to say we’ve proven something until it’s beyond a reasonable doubt.

  6. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich May 19, 2014 at 8:30 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Sure it’s the same Joe Mannix? And does the New Jersey clue fit your guy?

    If you don’t have Frank’s phone number, call me and I’ll give it to you, Doc.

  7. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 19, 2014 at 8:32 pm #

    Doc,

    I admire you for sticking to your principles. It’s just too bad none of the birthers demonstrate anything even remotely resembling honesty and decency.

    In the meantime I suspect you are on to something with Mannix. As far as Zullo trying to keep his home address secret I suspect he’s wasting his time. I can’t wait to see his rationale for this one.

  8. avatar
    wrecking ball May 19, 2014 at 8:41 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Sure it’s the same Joe Mannix? And does the New Jersey clue fit your guy?

    he’s yet to post on city-data as “joe mannix” but he once referenced on of “his” posts on BR that was a “mannix” post.

  9. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 19, 2014 at 8:43 pm #

    Man, if that turns out true, can you imagine the short circuit Falcon would have? His head would be like that guy from Scanners!

  10. avatar
    wrecking ball May 19, 2014 at 9:10 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    And does the New Jersey clue fit your guy?

    not that i can remember but he’s claimed to have been from multiple areas under the different sock puppets ( britt reid ( the green hornet ) was supposedly a member of the surprise AZ tea party ).

  11. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 19, 2014 at 9:22 pm #

    I have even stronger reasons to believe that Mannix is Zullo, but it’s off the record. In any case, I’m NOT going to make that association over at BR.

    Falcon’s identification is circumstantial. The guy is obviously well-educated, but flunked socialization.

    Comrade Fogovich: I’m going to look more closely at Joe Mannix’s posts, but so far I’d say your evidence is very, very strong. I know you think you identified Falcon’s real name, too.

  12. avatar
    wrecking ball May 19, 2014 at 9:31 pm #

    here’s where i caught him directly making reference to a specific city-data post of his ( under the name “_CARL_” ) on birther report:

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/31017890-post23.html

    “_CARL_” has also posted under the names steve mcgarrett (hawaii 5-0), britt reid (green hornet), george lazenby (james bond) and sam troy (rat patrol) so the “mannix” handle is pretty consistent with his choices.

  13. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 19, 2014 at 10:28 pm #

    Added to the article:

    If Mannix is indeed Zullo, then we have a big hint about the Reed Hayes report:

    “You mean there is something wrong with signatures.?”
    Of course. Reed is a master at detecting forgeries, especially when people try to mimic other peoples signatures on such things such as checks or birth certificates as in this case. He detects anomalies in forged signatures the average person can’t recognize.He immediately knew something was wrong after looking at the document hence why he called Mike back within 20 minutes.

    Who calls somebody by their first name if they don’t know them? (OK, I do that to Orly, but…)

  14. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 19, 2014 at 10:45 pm #

    Note that the Joe Mannix comment referenced at City Data was 39 weeks ago and NOT attached to the Joe Mannix Intense Debate profile used by Joe Mannix today.

    wrecking ball: “_CARL_” has also posted under the names steve mcgarrett (hawaii 5-0), britt reid (green hornet), george lazenby (james bond) and sam troy (rat patrol) so the “mannix” handle is pretty consistent with his choices.

  15. avatar
    bovril May 20, 2014 at 4:53 am #

    Well, “Mannix” is equally as stupid and publind as L’il Mikey so it wouldn’t surprise me if they are one and the same. Not that I really care, Mannix is a feckwit idiot Birfoon, no more odious label exists…..

    The point is that considering that the real L’il Mikey was (supposedly) a real cop for at least a short period of time, where the hell does he come up with all this nonsense about how “real” investigamations are run.

    They really bear not even a passing relationship to reality or actual process and procedure.

    Still, when the Multiverse Shattering Seekrit Stuff is finally revealed….ANY….DAY….NOW, I’m sure we will see L’il Mikey Mannix wholly vindicated……

    (I can’t believe I typed that with a straight face…….)

  16. avatar
    Suranis May 20, 2014 at 7:26 am #

    It’s would not surprise me if Zullo was sitting in internet debates making out to be a real cop and adopting internet persona’s of “real” tv detectives. The guy has had a severe case of Napoleon’s syndrome for all this time regarding being a REAL detective. That’s why he continually inflates his police experience no matter how many times it’s debunked. Having this sham investigation dropped onto his lap was a dream come true for him, so he could actually be a really real detective, and investigamating the Prezident to boot! He could be the big guy he always knew he was!

    And Doc’s evidence of Mannix being Zullo is pretty damn strong. It’s either Zullo or someone who desperately wants to be Zullo and who wants to defend him while giving the air of inside knowledge, but the latter would not call hayes by his first name. He would have kept the Hayes name to give a veneer of authority.

  17. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich May 20, 2014 at 7:41 am #

    I just read all 80 comments by Joe Mannix on Intense Debate. I do believe you have struck gold, Doc. He definitely claims, again and again, to have inside information about what the evidence is that Zullo has so far been afraid to disclose. He claims that “what Zullo has on Obama trumps Benghazi, IRS, NSA, Fast and Furious, etc. This is so much larger that it will have repercussions globally. We are talking about evidence that will be the catalyst to the downfall of Obama …” How could he make such a statement (or many, many other statements he’s made) if he has no idea what that evidence is?

    He says the Xerox evidence “is of no concern”. The exact quote by Zullo – a claim with no evidence to support it, and a refusal to discuss the actual evidence produced by R.C. and nbc. But you can’t make a blanket statement like that without having first taken the time to discover what that evidence is.

    If he’s not Mike Zullo, he’s somebody who has studied every word Zullo said and decided to be a Zullo clone. That’s not very likely, IMHO. Most of the commenters at Birther Report are quite angry about the delay in releasing the “universe-shattering” information. Not Joe Mannix. He’s trying very hard to convince everyone that:

    • I know what the evidence is that Zullo has obtained
    • I know more about how to conduct a criminal investigation than anyone here
    • I know why Zullo is delaying the release of his evidence, and
    • I know for certain that some of the details made up by Comrade Fogovich are wrong.

    I don’t see how anyone else but Zullo could claim to know all those details. You made a great catch, noting that he claims he knows what’s in the Reed Hayes report. Only someone who has read that report would know that Hayes focused on the signatures first, and not other things like kerning, layers, and other things the birthers have falsely claimed prove the document is a forgery.

    Having said all that, I also don’t see how you’re going to avoid “making the association” at Birther Report. They read here, and they’re going to see that you’ve busted Joe Mannix as being Mike Zullo.

    … and proved that you’re a far better detective than Zullo will ever be. :D

  18. avatar
    HistorianDude May 20, 2014 at 8:41 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Sure it’s the same Joe Mannix? And does the New Jersey clue fit your guy?

    I’m with Wrecking Ball on this one (though your reasoning otherwise is intriguing). The reason the guy has so many sock puppets on City-Data is because he periodically has a complete racist meltdown and gets banned, so he comes back for as long as it takes the Mods to suss him out (usually far longer than his fellow posters take). His different puppets often pretend to be from different places. For example, he most recently was pretending to be from Surprise Arizona and a member of Reilly’s Tea Party there. He used that (suddenly new) detail to rail against Reilly’s credibility.

    Based on identical posts (down to the same typos) he was making a couple years ago on both City-Data and Fogbow, I linked him to the UserIDs on FB of (IIRC) “Black Army Sergeant.” and (IIRC) “Retired Intelligence Officer.” I may be confused on those. He used them, but I’m fuzzy after all this time on which forum. Through those means I narrowed him down to an Orly Supporter from Monroe, Louisiana who once had his picture taken with her, but whose name I will withhold based on your privacy policy.

    It’s a long chain of reasoning and some of it is admittedly inference, and any one of my links might be in error. But I’m confident he’s not Zullo.

    All this said… Reilly did drop the hint once that Zullo had been posting on Internet forums under aliases for a long time. And Joe Mannix/Steve McGarret/Britt Reid is a big enough dick to be the guy.

  19. avatar
    HistorianDude May 20, 2014 at 8:48 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Note that the Joe Mannix comment referenced at City Data was 39 weeks ago and NOT attached to the Joe Mannix Intense Debate profile used by Joe Mannix today.

    Do any posts on City-Data link to Intense Debate?

    I am not at this point convinced… but I am certainly starting to sway.

  20. avatar
    Bonsall Obot May 20, 2014 at 8:51 am #

    HistorianDude:

    All this said… Reilly did drop the hint once that Zullo had been posting on Internet forums under aliases for a long time.

    Another reason why I didn’t join the chorus praising Reilly; he continues to lie about the President & the ACA, and he selectively releases information. That he refuses to provide Zullo’s online aliases does not do him credit.

  21. avatar
    Reality Check May 20, 2014 at 8:57 am #

    We know who RIO-Fake Blake Army Sergeant is. He was Orly’s tour guide and chauffeur when she was trying to “horn” in on the offshore drilling case in NOLA.

    I am not sold on the Zullo connection either. It is intriguing though.

  22. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich May 20, 2014 at 9:02 am #

    Doc and Historian Dude – One of the things Joe Mannix is claiming that I’m really unclear about is the penciled race codes. Mannix has said at least twice that:

    1. Hawaii had its own codes that didn’t match the federal codes, and the codes are what Zullo said they were in the two press conferences, and,

    2. Verna K. Lee verified No. 1 above.

    In other words, Joe Mannix is saying that Zullo didn’t lie about the pencil codes.

    I seem to recall that Verna Lee’s retirement home booted Zullo before he had a chance to talk to her, and that only Corsi claims to have ever had a conversation with her. I don’t recall whether Corsi made the claim about Hawaii having its own codes and Ms. Lee confirming that. I thought he talked to her before we discovered that Zullo was lying about the codes.

    But my memory on all that is, yes, foggy. Can one of you refresh my memory?

  23. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 20, 2014 at 9:09 am #

    I just meant that I’m not going to say it at BR, not that I am hiding it from BR. I don’t want to play “outing” over there.

    Comrade Fogovich: Having said all that, I also don’t see how you’re going to avoid “making the association” at Birther Report. They read here, and they’re going to see that you’ve busted Joe Mannix as being Mike Zullo.

  24. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich May 20, 2014 at 9:14 am #

    Didn’t mean to leave R.C. out on asking that question above. I didn’t know you were working on this already.

    Did Zullo, when he mentioned the race codes (I think it was in the second presser) say anything about how “These aren’t the federal codes, they’re Hawaii’s own which were different from the federal codes”?

  25. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich May 20, 2014 at 9:18 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I just meant that I’m not going to say it at BR, not that I am hiding it from BR. I don’t want to play “outing” over there.

    OK, got it. I mean, you did post it publicly. I made a post at Fogbow about it. I like to have a lot of people look at a thing to make triple quadruple sure. It seems that Historian Dude and R.C. are having their doubts, but I still think the evidence is very strong and I’d like to ask them to resolve a few things. If we can convince them, I’ll feel a lot stronger that you’re right.

  26. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 20, 2014 at 9:18 am #

    My recollection agrees with yours.

    Zullo never said where the codes at the press conference came from at the time. He attributed almost nothing to Verna Lee except that that they verified the coding. He may also have gotten the bit about the State coding information for the feds (which was not true in 1961, but happened later).

    The story evolved:

    1. There are the 1961 federal codes used to code Hawaiian certificates (he showed 1967 codes).

    2. They were 1960 codes, and the 1961 codes hadn’t been issued by the date Obama was born (1960 and 61 codes are the same).

    3. They were Hawaiian codes from Verna Lee.

    The problems with that last are manifold:

    1. The image Zullo showed at the press conference matches, even to the dust specks on the 1967 federal code manual.
    2. The Zullo image appeared on a birther web site with Lee not named as the source (but rather the federal codes from the wrong year)
    3. The Hawaii Department of Health 1961 Annual report statistics have different categories from the Zullo codes.
    4. How did Lee get an image to Corsi over the phone, and why would she have a 50-year old code sheet?

    Comrade Fogovich: In other words, Joe Mannix is saying that Zullo didn’t lie about the pencil codes.

  27. avatar
    Bonsall Obot May 20, 2014 at 9:29 am #

    These are the kinds of elementary mistakes and fabrications that are guaranteed to happen when one determines the outcome first, then seeks “evidence” to support the predetermined outcome.

    Zullo is NOT a detective. Zullo is NOT a cop. He’s a propagandist, and not a very good one.

  28. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich May 20, 2014 at 9:32 am #

    Thanks for your response, Doc. I forget all the little details. Now I’m off to do some errands for a few hours. If Historian Dude and RC still think Mannix is NOT Zullo, I’d like to read some detailed reasons why they think that. It just seems like a “tell” that Mannix claims to have so much inside information about the Zullo “investigation”.

  29. avatar
    HistorianDude May 20, 2014 at 9:34 am #

    I am looking back at his posts on City-Data as “Britt Reid,” the ones where he claims to live in Sun City West, AZ. They carry the same confidence and sense of being on the inside as the Joe Mannix posts on BR do. For example, this if from March 18:

    You keep throwing up Montgomery. It was only his opinion and he wanted more evidence in order to proceed further. Montgomery is not trained in law enforcement investigations or forgeries. What Arpaio needed at the time was proof of who actually did the forgery. If he had it then Montgomery would have had a different tune. Never the less, that was over a year ago since that statement and we have no idea since then what the Maricopa County full time detectives, that Arpaio recently assigned several months back, have been investigating that the birth certificate leads led them to. They have been silent on the new criminal matter of what evidence they have uncovered due to the new leads provided and that is a good thing if you ask me. Oh, and the reason Lt. Brandon Jones came back and told that blogger from ArizonaPolitics (after being asked questions about the investigation) what he said was to shut him down from asking any more questions.

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/34420636-post41.html

  30. avatar
    gorefan May 20, 2014 at 9:38 am #

    Comrade Fogovich:
    Can one of you refresh my memory?

    Here is Zullo’s interview on ABC15 in Phoenix, he talks about both Federal codes and Hawaiian codes. And gets them wrong. This was a day or two after the press conference.

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2BMOw8tqooc

    @2:40

  31. avatar
    HistorianDude May 20, 2014 at 9:52 am #

    A “Britt Reid” defense of Zullo from April 10:

    Anyone can switch careers for any reason but that doesn’t mean the prior career was a failure. Answer my previous question. Do you know what he investigated and for who specifically?

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/34312457-post228.html

  32. avatar
    gorefan May 20, 2014 at 9:52 am #

    Comrade Fogovich:
    Thanks for your response, Doc. I forget all the little details. Now I’m off to do some errands for a few hours. If Historian Dude and RC still think Mannix is NOT Zullo, I’d like to read some detailed reasons why they think that. It just seems like a “tell” that Mannix claims to have so much inside information about the Zullo “investigation”.

    IMO, Mannix sounds smarter (at least more articulate) than Zullo. Compare the writing styles of the Mannix posts to the various Zullo affidavits.

  33. avatar
    HistorianDude May 20, 2014 at 9:58 am #

    Another from April 9:

    That TV station is against Sheriff Arpaio. They always try to mudsling against everything he does, especially flawed reporter Morgan Loew who has zero law enforcement experience. Zullo had 5 years of law enforcement experience in New Jersey and right at 8 years with Arpaio.

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/34291892-post26.html

  34. avatar
    HistorianDude May 20, 2014 at 10:04 am #

    “Britt Reid” commenting on the Xerox workflow April 7:

    The Xerox experiment by Fogbowers turned out to be nothing. The MCSOCCP’s evidence proving the forgery backed by Reed Hayes, a court recognized handwriting and computer-document forensic document examiner with decades of impeccable credentials is solid. The desperation of Obama obots is enormous. I have been asking for RC’s credentials BUT YET there can be non provided. This shows this is a desperation attempt to derail the CCP’s evidence even though they have no idea what Zullo is about to reveal. How pathetic!

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/34266930-post84.html

  35. avatar
    HistorianDude May 20, 2014 at 10:07 am #

    I’m growing more and more impressed with Doc’s ID. A “Britt Reid” attack on Reilly from April 7:

    The man you alledge that said that in your post unfortunately let his impatient feelings get in the way clouding his judgement. He wanted everything to be done his way and wasn’t a team player. That is why he was let go. What ashame!

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/34263051-post72.html

  36. avatar
    HistorianDude May 20, 2014 at 10:22 am #

    “Britt Reid” from March 9:

    It’s nothing to do with us Constitutionalists. The MCSOCCP came across a unexpected tip that forced Arpaio to assign two compensated seasoned detectives out of the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office who are able to go to a outside jurisdiction and cooperate with another enforcement agency in a joint investigation into a serious criminal matter indirectly affiliated with the forged birth certificate. Now if you’ve been keeping up with this investigation as long as I have, you can use your common sense and figure out what is going on here.

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/33813309-post39.html

  37. avatar
    Reality Check May 20, 2014 at 10:47 am #

    I got “baned” at City-Data forums for no reason at all so I don’t read there.

  38. avatar
    Curious George May 20, 2014 at 10:54 am #

    I’ll go along with Doc on this one. Good call Doc .

  39. avatar
    Jim May 20, 2014 at 11:31 am #

    What do these men have in common?
    Joe Mannix
    Jim Rockford
    Thomas Magnum
    Remington Steele
    Mike Zullo

    A: They are all fake detectives.

  40. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) May 20, 2014 at 11:51 am #

    Suranis: Having this sham investigation dropped onto his lap was a dream come true for him, so he could actually be a really real detective, and investigamating the Prezident to boot! He could be the big guy he always knew he was!

    That’s what I theorized a long time ago could be his motivation for birfin’ – as opposed to “simple Obama-hater”, “racist”, “closet PUMA”, “con artist”, “generic loon” and other possible explanations.

    If he thinks that he’s got only a 0.01% chance of being right and becoming famous for it, he’d probably take that chance instead of having common sense rule that there’s no “there” there.

  41. avatar
    wrecking ball May 20, 2014 at 12:07 pm #

    HistorianDude: The reason the guy has so many sock puppets on City-Data is because he periodically has a complete racist meltdown and gets banned, ….

    here is one of those meltdowns i was able to save before the mods deleted it:

    ” To me, the 1950’s and especially the 1960’s were glorious years. America was at it’s finest. We had segregation. We had Martin Luther Kink killed by patriot James Earl Ray. My classmates clapped in my school when it was announced over the intercom that JFK was taken out. Unruly American negroes were being sprayed down with water hoses on the streets across America. “

  42. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 12:16 pm #

    wrecking ball:
    “joe mannix” is not zullo ( altho i wish he was ). i’ve been debating him on the city-data forum for years. he’s used multiple late 60′s early 70′s “crime fighter” personas ( steve mcgarrett, britt reid, etc ). frank arduini can back me on this one. his identity is known ( altho i will not share it ).

    And who are you that we should believe a single word that you say?

  43. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich May 20, 2014 at 12:17 pm #

    So far, the posts I’m reading from the City-Data forums (I was banned there once too, but I think I’m not any more) are missing one element – any claim to be on the inside of the investigation. I know the dude from Monroe, LA (his initials are DM) and we had a really fun time with him back when he was a fake black retired Army master sergeant. I suggested that if he could get together with fake black Army captain Pamela Barnett they could be a fake black couple, which would be really entertaining at parties and stuff. :D

    I suggested they could maybe work up an act with Lloyd Marcus, except he really is black, but I bet he gets lonely at those otherwise all-white rallies he sings for and could use a couple more black folks in the act, even if they were just fake black people.

    I think he’s the guy who tries to be a Zullo clone, but he adds nothing to the discussion that Zullo hasn’t said publicly. Mannix, though, has new material — the news that Hayes focused on the signatures first, and the new explanation about the race codes (that they were the Hawaiian ones, not the federal codes, and Verna Lee confirmed that). Mannix claims he knows all the details of Brian Reilly leaving the CCP.

    I’m feeling more and more solid that Doc is right and Mannix is Zullo. But I’m going to follow this quite closely until we settle it out one way or the other.

  44. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 12:22 pm #

    I don’t know why Zullo is trying to keep his address a secret. It’s public information on the Maricopa County Tax Assessors Office website. It even comes up when I click “mobile home”. LOL

  45. avatar
    wrecking ball May 20, 2014 at 12:33 pm #

    HistorianDude:
    I’m growing more and more impressed with Doc’s ID.

    i’m not there yet.

    i’m convinced that city-data “britt reid” ( et al ) is “joe mannix” but i’m not convinced that “joe mannix” is mike zullo. i think all his comments of behind-the-scenes knowledge are either bluffs based on an educated guess or possibly some actual limited contact with zullo.

    if it is true that zullo is “joe mannix” and “joe mannix” is “britt reid” ( et al ) then you’ll have to give me at least a week to complete laughing my booty off. our ongoing debate at city-data over the past 4 years has been non-stop comedy. i’ve equated it several times with lucy van pelt, charlie brown and the football.

    also, if true, it would be comedy gold to see arpaio’s reaction if zullo could be linked to one of “reid’s” racist rants. he’s directly stated, under multiple other sock puppets , that a black person could never be considered a “natural born citizen”.

  46. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 12:40 pm #

    It also appears Zullo has overdue taxes, including a couple of liens (unpaid) and current year unpaid.

  47. avatar
    wrecking ball May 20, 2014 at 12:41 pm #

    bgansel9: And who are you that we should believe a single word that you say?

    i’m an anonymous poster on a blog who has supported his statements with facts. pretty much on par with nearly everyone else here.

    i’ve actually been participating here for many years under the handle “bat guano” but decided to switch to my city-data name, “wrecking ball”, in an attempt to avoid confusion on the topic.

  48. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 12:43 pm #

    wrecking ball: i’m an anonymous poster on a blog who has supported his statements with facts. pretty much on par with nearly everyone else here.

    i’ve actually been participating here for many years under the handle “bat guano” but decided to switch to my city-data name, “wrecking ball”, in an attempt to avoid confusion on the topic.

    Oh, I remember you. LOL I just didn’t recognize the name and wondered how you could talk with such authority. Carry on.

  49. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 12:44 pm #

    Why is Sheriff Arpaio employing a tax dodger?

  50. avatar
    wrecking ball May 20, 2014 at 12:51 pm #

    bgansel9: Oh, I remember you. LOLI just didn’t recognize the name and wondered how you could talk with such authority. Carry on.

    no worries. in hindsight that does look a little suspicious. i should have acknowledged the name change.

  51. avatar
    Bonsall Obot May 20, 2014 at 12:52 pm #

    bgansel9:
    Why is Sheriff Arpaio employing a tax dodger?

    Haven’t you heard? Tax avoidance is patriotism these days.

  52. avatar
    gorefan May 20, 2014 at 12:53 pm #

    wrecking ball: i think all his comments of behind-the-scenes knowledge are either bluffs based on an educated guess or possibly some actual limited contact with zullo.

    I agree with you on that. The statement about Reed Hayes reviewing the “signatures”, strikes me as an argument based on the Obots’ observation that Hayes has no experience with digital documents and is a handwriting expert. Even the poster “John” has said things similar to Mannix. And he is definitely not Zullo.

  53. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 20, 2014 at 1:06 pm #

    bgansel9:
    I don’t know why Zullo is trying to keep his address a secret. It’s public information on the Maricopa County Tax Assessors Office website. It even comes up when I click “mobile home”.LOL

    FYI…..that is his father and mother. His father died in 2010.

  54. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 1:07 pm #

    Bonsall Obot: Haven’t you heard? Tax avoidance is patriotism these days.

    Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary defines Patriotism as:

    pa·tri·ot·ism noun \ˈpā-trē-ə-ˌti-zəm, chiefly British ˈpa-\
    : love that people feel for their country

    Because starving the country’s tax rolls is how they show their love? Crazy stuff there. That’s not patriotic, it’s demeaning.

  55. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 20, 2014 at 1:10 pm #

    bgansel9:
    It also appears Zullo has overdue taxes, including a couple of liens (unpaid) and current year unpaid.

    Watch out guys………….this is not our Mike Zullo. It’s his late father and his mother, who is still alive.

    I believe this piece was consolidated into the main property which was placed in a new trust after the father died but I’m not sure.

  56. avatar
    wrecking ball May 20, 2014 at 1:13 pm #

    Comrade Fogovich:
    I know the dude from Monroe, LA (his initials are DM) …

    this is who i suspect “joe mannix/britt reid” is.

    here’s a partial list of what i believe are his sock puppets at city-data:

    britt reid
    steve mcgarrett
    _CARL_
    old army soldier
    jesus christ superstar
    tea party ted

    look up the treads started by these puppets. in the titles and the opening posts it’s easy to see a consistent pattern/style. are these consistent with your gentleman from monroe?

  57. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 20, 2014 at 1:13 pm #

    Bonsall Obot: Haven’t you heard? Tax avoidance is patriotism these days.

    See my other notes……this is not our Zullo but rather his late father.

  58. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 1:18 pm #

    CarlOrcas:FYI…..that is his father and mother. His father died in 2010.

    Well online records state he lives in the same location as one of those two addresses. I believe he’s living on his mother’s property and it has unpaid taxes.

  59. avatar
    Reality Check May 20, 2014 at 1:19 pm #

    I found some old comments here suggesting that Joe Mannix posted somewhere with an IP address that traced to Cave Creek, AZ. How does anyone know what his IP address was?

  60. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 1:31 pm #

    RC, that would be the location that an online search says he lives at, and also matches one of the properties I discussed above.

  61. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 20, 2014 at 1:33 pm #

    bgansel9: Well online records state he lives in the same location as one of those two addresses. I believe he’s living on his mother’s property and it has unpaid taxes.

    I think you may be on the verge going where Doc has specifically said we shouldn’t.

    For anyone else looking at public records: Our Zullo goes by Michael P. or Mike. His father was Michael J. Zullo.

    The two properties are now held in a trust in the mother’s name. Public records for our man are few and far between.

    I suggest we leave it at that.

  62. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 1:34 pm #

    I’m not publishing his address. I am saying I found information that states he lives at one of those two locations. That’s all. It’s not hard to find.

    “For anyone else looking at public records: Our Zullo goes by Michael P. or Mike. His father was Michael J. Zullo”

    Michael P and Michael J both are listed at that address.

  63. avatar
    wrecking ball May 20, 2014 at 1:40 pm #

    gorefan: I agree with you on that.The statement about Reed Hayes reviewing the “signatures”, strikes me as an argument based on the Obots’ observation that Hayes has no experience with digital documents and is a handwriting expert.

    here’s a good example of “britt” not having knowledge that zullo would have then either making things up to fit his beliefs or possibly getting it from zullo:

    “britt’s” initial response to MCSO lt. brandon jones’ statement that zullo was mistaken about there being 2 MCSO detectives working on the case:

    “There is no official confirmation that is Jone’s email.”

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/33424377-post293.html

    then:

    “Lt. Brandon Jones after confering with the Posse did that because it was none of the bloggers business to what was going on with the investigation. End of story.”

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/34245854-post36.html

    and…..

    “Oh, and the reason Lt. Brandon Jones came back and told that blogger from ArizonaPolitics (after being asked questions about the investigation) what he said was to shut him down from asking any more questions.”

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/34420636-post41.html

    obviously if “britt” was zullo he wouldn’t have questioned if it were really jones’ email, he would have already spoken to him.

  64. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 20, 2014 at 1:40 pm #

    bgansel9:
    RC, that would be the location that an online search says he lives at, and also matches one of the properties I discussed above.

    bgansel9:
    RC, that would be the location that an online search says he lives at, and also matches one of the properties I discussed above.

    It may match an area but I doubt you or anyone else can match it to a specific address. Here’s what I got when I searched “cave creek arizona ip adresses”

    http://myip.ms/view/cities/6990/IP_Addresses_Cave_Creek.html

    Notice there are dozens of them that are….literally….all over the map.

  65. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 1:44 pm #

    CarlOrcas: It may match an area but I doubt you or anyone else can match it to a specific address. Here’s what I got when I searched “cave creek arizona ip adresses”

    I am saying a background search online matches Mike Zullo to a Cave Creek address. I’m also sure you know, Carl, that Cave Creek isn’t that large and has a population of about 5,000 people (very few of them named Zullo, according to searches). I’ve been to Cave Creek (it’s about 10 minutes from where I’m sitting), and I’m sure you have too.

  66. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 20, 2014 at 1:49 pm #

    bgansel9: I’m not publishing his address.

    You’re being disingenuous.

    And you’re courting problems with Doc who has clearly said he doesn’t want Zullo’s address on his blog.

  67. avatar
    Dave B. May 20, 2014 at 1:51 pm #

    Zullo’s not old enough to have been in school in 1963.

    wrecking ball: here is one of those meltdowns i was able to save before the mods deleted it:

    ” To me, the 1950′s and especially the 1960′s were glorious years. America was at it’s finest. We had segregation. We had Martin Luther Kink killed by patriot James Earl Ray. My classmates clapped in my school when it was announced over the intercom that JFK was taken out. Unruly American negroes were being sprayed down with water hoses on the streets across America. ”

  68. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 1:52 pm #

    Zullo’s address ISN’T on Doc’s blog. I am merely saying I am able to find it. It’s not hard to find.

  69. avatar
    wrecking ball May 20, 2014 at 1:52 pm #

    i just want to say that i’m a HUGE admirer of all the amazing research that doc ( and others ) do for this site. i’m just glad that, on this specific topic, i have a little insight to be able to play devil’s advocate.

  70. avatar
    wrecking ball May 20, 2014 at 1:54 pm #

    Dave B.:
    Zullo’s not old enough to have been in school in 1963.

    neither is the gentleman i suspect him to be ( i believe he’s mid-40’s ). the specifics of his history change with each sock puppet.

  71. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 1:59 pm #

    wrecking ball: i just want to say that i’m a HUGE admirer of all the amazing research that doc ( and others ) do for this site. i’m just glad that, on this specific topic, i have a little insight to be able to play devil’s advocate.

    I admit that the tax assessor’s info matches his father. That doesn’t mean that the search is a dead end. There are two persons named Michael Zullo that match the address in question. The second fits your description as not being old enough to have gone to school in 1963. The search is not wrong. I originally had the wrong Michael Zullo of the two matching that address. For that I apologize

  72. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 2:02 pm #

    wrecking ball: neither is the gentleman i suspect him to be ( i believe he’s mid-40′s ). the specifics of his history change with each sock puppet.

    Sock puppets don’t have ages.

  73. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 20, 2014 at 2:02 pm #

    bgansel9: I am saying a background search online matches Mike Zullo to a Cave Creek address.I’m also sure you know, Carl, that Cave Creek isn’t that large and has a population of about 5,000 people (very few of them named Zullo, according to searches).I’ve been to Cave Creek (it’s about 10 minutes from where I’m sitting), and I’m sure you have too.

    The location of the server or host to which an IP address is assigned doesn’t mean that is where any or all users are located.

    My IP address, for instance, is located nearly 100 miles away from where I live.

  74. avatar
    Dave B. May 20, 2014 at 2:04 pm #

    From the article:
    “Mannix points to a Zullo video:

    Mr. Zullo is not a liar. Hawaii had their own seperate (sic) code manual prior to becoming a state. Verna K. Lee verified she used those codes. The CCP also has in possession two Hawaiian birth certificates from 1961 that reveal that the term ‘Negro’ was used for black babies instead of the term ‘African’. Mike Zullo explains:

    Everybody please watch for educational purposes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BMOw8tqooc

    NO race terms were “used for black babies,” or for ANY babies. And in that video, Zullo repeatedly refers to Verna Lee as “U.K. Lee,” yet claims to have spoken with her by telephone. He says, “unfortunately, I located her the week after we got back from Hawaii.” So how many trips to Hawaii did Zullo make?

  75. avatar
    BillTheCat May 20, 2014 at 2:05 pm #

    “My classmates clapped in my school when it was announced over the intercom that JFK was taken out”

    No, they didn’t. Just, no. Even the most white, southern, backwoods school would not have had children clapping to the announcement of the death of the US President. Liar.

  76. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 2:06 pm #

    CarlOrcas: The location of the server or host to which an IP address is assigned doesn’t mean that is where any or all users are located.

    My IP address, for instance, is located nearly 100 miles away from where I live.

    That very well may be true, but having the person and an IP that we think matches the person both come from a town of 5,000 people seems to suggest it might be a local IP.

  77. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 2:09 pm #

    BillTheCat: No, they didn’t. Just, no. Even the most white, southern, backwoods school would not have had children clapping to the announcement of the death of the US President. Liar.

    Sock puppets don’t often tell the truth either.

  78. avatar
    wrecking ball May 20, 2014 at 2:10 pm #

    bgansel9: Sock puppets don’t have ages.

    Kukla, Fraud & Ollie.

  79. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 20, 2014 at 2:10 pm #

    bgansel9: I admit that the tax assessor’s info matches his father. That doesn’t mean that the search is a dead end.

    What are you searching for?????

  80. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 2:13 pm #

    Dave B.: So how many trips to Hawaii did Zullo make?

    If I remember correctly, there were two. RC’s timeline shows at least two: http://rcradioblog.wordpress.com/mcso-cold-case-posse-timeline/

  81. avatar
    Reality Check May 20, 2014 at 2:15 pm #

    Joe Mannix:

    4 weeks ago @ Birther Report: Obama … – FF: Sheriff Joe Arpaio… · 0 replies · +5 points
    Believe me ‘guest’. RC’s identity is well known to the CCP.

    If this is Zullo why was he demanding to know my identity when I called him? Of course he could be lying.

    Joe Mannix · 36 weeks ago
    Fogbow member R.C. from ‘Reality Check Radio’ got Mike Zullo’s private cell phone number and called him in his car? This makes me think R.C. does work for Team Obama and most likely got Zullo’s number through a NSA contact. I mean think about it. The only other person I can think of who would have gave out Zullo’s cell phone number to R.C. is maybe that disgruntled Brian Reilly fella who used to post here who sided with Orly and has been ridiculing Arpaio and Zullo lately.

    If that is Zullo it is a flat out lie. MIke Zullo gave me his phone number when he agreed to come on RC Radio in 2012. After he asked Corsi to come on with him Corsi advised Zullo to back out and he did.

  82. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 2:16 pm #

    CarlOrcas: What are you searching for?????

    Zullo in public records. One address on the tax assessor’s information matches a current address for a Michael Paul Zullo.

  83. avatar
    VeniVidiVici May 20, 2014 at 2:16 pm #

    dc, joe mannix is not mike zullo although it is somewhat amusing that you think so.

    I don’t have anything against Obama supporters personally. many in my family supported him and a smaller percentage of them are part of the liberal elite.

    what is amazing to me is the level of allegiance in the face of evidence. you say, what evidence is there? I will tell you that they do have evidence and it will change the landscape of America (not just political) forever. what is forthcoming cannot be compared to Watergate because Watergate pales in comparison by orders of degree.

    like many of my relatives (with a few important exceptions), you will probably ridicule this post as typical birther braggadocio. but please, do not say that I didn’t give you a heads up.

  84. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 20, 2014 at 2:18 pm #

    bgansel9: That very well may be true, but having the person and an IP that we think matches the person both come from a town of 5,000 people seems to suggest it might be a local IP.

    Please! You’ve now progressed from disingenuous to fatuous.

  85. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 2:19 pm #

    VeniVidiVici: what is amazing to me is the level of allegiance in the face of evidence. you say, what evidence is there? I will tell you that they do have evidence and it will change the landscape of America (not just political) forever. what is forthcoming cannot be compared to Watergate because Watergate pales in comparison by orders of degree.

    If I was a betting kind of person, I’d put some serious money behind you being wrong.

  86. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 2:21 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Please! You’ve now progressed from disingenuous to fatuous

    Carl, it’s Cave Creek. Are you trying to suggest it’s a metropolis of internet activity? LOL

  87. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 20, 2014 at 2:22 pm #

    bgansel9: Zullo in public records. One address on the tax assessor’s information matches a current address for a Michael Paul Zullo.

    And to what end?

    What does his home address have to do with his public involvement with the Cold Case Posse?

  88. avatar
    VeniVidiVici May 20, 2014 at 2:22 pm #

    bgansel9, I truly wish I was.

  89. avatar
    wrecking ball May 20, 2014 at 2:27 pm #

    VeniVidiVici: I will tell you that they do have evidence …..

    any…… day……now…..

  90. avatar
    wrecking ball May 20, 2014 at 2:28 pm #

    VeniVidiVici: …you will probably ridicule this post as typical birther braggadocio…..

    good call.

  91. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 2:30 pm #

    CarlOrcas: What does his home address have to do with his public involvement with the Cold Case Posse?

    The original language in the post Doc made said Zullo was trying to keep his address secret, and that perhaps he was doing so illegally. I am merely showing that it’s not hard to find.

  92. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 20, 2014 at 2:31 pm #

    bgansel9: Carl, it’s Cave Creek. Are you trying to suggest it’s a metropolis of internet activity? LOL

    Okay…..let’s try this: Are you saying that the IP addresses located in Cave Creek only serve users in Cave Creek?

    Have you clicked on any of them to see who owns them and where they are located?

  93. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 2:31 pm #

    VeniVidiVici: bgansel9, I truly wish I was

    You’d lose, just as the birthers have lost every single case and every single argument about this fantasy you’ve conjured up. It would be a poor decision, but, that doesn’t surprise me that you’d make a poor decision.

  94. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 2:33 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Okay…..let’s try this: Are you saying that the IP addresses located in Cave Creek only serve users in Cave Creek?

    No, there are some IP companies in Cave Creek. A few, not a lot. I am merely saying that if the person lives there and a suspected IP matches that area, it may or may not be him, but chances are it probably is.

    Most of the IP companies in Cave Creek are Cox, CenturyLink (formerly known locally a Qwest) and Cricket. They are large companies with local locations. There are a few small independantly owned IP companies there too.

  95. avatar
    wrecking ball May 20, 2014 at 2:34 pm #

    VeniVidiVici:
    what is amazing to me is the level of allegiance in the face of evidence.you say, what evidence is there?I will tell you that they do have evidence ….

    did you read your own statement as you wrote it?

    you first claim that we are blind to the “face of evidence”……. then admit that evidence hasn’t been released!

  96. avatar
    Thomas Brown May 20, 2014 at 2:34 pm #

    bgansel9: If I was a betting kind of person, I’d put some serious money behind you being wrong.

    Well, I AM a betting man, and I’ve got $1000 says there is nothing. Zullo has no evidence whatsoever that Obama is not who he claims to be. VVV claims it will make Watergate “pale by comparison.” Hogwash. Zullo will never produce actual, court-admissible evidence of anything wrong with BHO’s documents or biographic narrative. Never. But since I can’t wait until “never” to collect, I’ll settle for betting that nothing resembling what you describe will come out before Obama’s last day in office, i.e. Jan.19th 2017.

    You taking the bet, VVV? Or are you just blowing smoke?

  97. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 20, 2014 at 2:35 pm #

    bgansel9: The original language in the post Doc made said Zullo was trying to keep his address secret,and that perhaps he was doing so illegally. I am merely showing that it’s not hard to find.

    Actually what you showed is that it is pretty easy to confuse the issue by mistaking him for his late father.

  98. avatar
    Bonsall Obot May 20, 2014 at 2:36 pm #

    Reality Check:
    Joe Mannix:

    If this is Zullo why was he demanding to know my identity when I called him? Of course he could be lying.

    If that is Zullo it is a flat out lie. MIke Zullo gave me his phone number when he agreed to come on RC Radio in 2012. After he asked Corsi to come on with him Corsi advised Zullo to back out and he did.

    So the only way Mannix could be Zullo is if Zullo is a known, demonstrable, shameless liar?

    I’ll buy that.

  99. avatar
    VeniVidiVici May 20, 2014 at 2:36 pm #

    your responses didn’t surprise me. you won’t believe that barry will be legally removed from office before his term ends until it happens. God Bless and I truly hope that you are wiser after this episode ends.

  100. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 2:39 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Actually what you showed is that it is pretty easy to confuse the issue by mistaking him for his late father

    Well, yes and no. Both of them were listed at the same address.

  101. avatar
    wrecking ball May 20, 2014 at 2:39 pm #

    VeniVidiVici:… and I truly hope that you are wiser after this episode ends.

    and if obama serves out his second term to the full will you be the wiser? what do you think you will have learned?

  102. avatar
    Bonsall Obot May 20, 2014 at 2:40 pm #

    No Birfer will take the bet, because no Birfer actually believes their own spew; it’s all a LARP for them.

  103. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 2:41 pm #

    VeniVidiVici: your responses didn’t surprise me. you won’t believe that barry will be legally removed from office before his term ends until it happens

    If you were serious, you’d take the bet. You’d make some good money on it, if you were correct. Show your confidence. LOL

  104. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 20, 2014 at 2:41 pm #

    bgansel9: No, there are some IP companies in Cave Creek. A few, not a lot. I am merely saying that if the person lives there and a suspected IP matches that area, it may or may not be him, but chances are it probably is.

    Most of the IP companies in Cave Creek are CenturyLink and Cricket. They are large companies with local locations. There are a few small independantly owned IP companies there too.

    This is making my brain hurt.

    Where a company (an ISP or internet service provider) is located and where an IP address is registered are, more often than not, two entirely different places. In fact most ISP’s have multiple addresses registered all over the place.

  105. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 2:43 pm #

    wrecking ball: you first claim that we are blind to the “face of evidence”……. then admit that evidence hasn’t been released!

    Funny how that works, huh?

  106. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 2:44 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Where a company (an ISP or internet service provider) is located and where an IP address is registered are, more often than not, two entirely different places. In fact most ISP’s have multiple addresses registered all over the place

    You know you can look up ISP companies IN Cave Creek, right?

    http://www.internetaccesslocal.com/states/arizona/cave-creek/

  107. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 20, 2014 at 2:46 pm #

    VeniVidiVici: what is amazing to me is the level of allegiance in the face of evidence. you say, what evidence is there? I will tell you that they do have evidence and it will change the landscape of America (not just political) forever. what is forthcoming cannot be compared to Watergate because Watergate pales in comparison by orders of degree.

    If it is what you say it is how can you support withholding it for even a day?

    If the future of America is in peril isn’t it your duty to tell us, right now, what the evidence is?

  108. avatar
    HistorianDude May 20, 2014 at 2:50 pm #

    VeniVidiVici:
    your responses didn’t surprise me.you won’t believe that barry will be legally removed from office before his term ends until it happens.

    Of course. Who in their right mind would believe it until it actually happens? It is an event so wildly improbable (especially in light of what we currently know to be true) as to warrant no expectation whatsoever.

  109. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 2:50 pm #

    Sorry, that’s the wrong link: http://www.yellowpages.com/cave-creek-az/internet-service-providers-isp

    Notice several at the bottom are in Scottsdale and Phoenix.

  110. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 20, 2014 at 2:54 pm #

    bgansel9: You know you can look up ISP companies IN Cave Creek, right?

    Yes. And again……..the location of the ISP and the IP are two different things.

    Here is the list again showing 79 IP’s in Cave Creek with owners all over the place.

    http://myip.ms/browse/comp_ip/1/cityID/6990/cityID_A/1

    The owner does not…..repeat does not….have to be located in Cave Creek to have an IP registered there.

  111. avatar
    Dave B. May 20, 2014 at 2:57 pm #

    Oooooooo, the liberal elite. I for one am beyond impressed.
    Why is it that people never refer to the “conservative elite”?

    VeniVidiVici: I don’t have anything against Obama supporters personally. many in my family supported him and a smaller percentage of them are part of the liberal elite.

  112. avatar
    Dave B. May 20, 2014 at 2:59 pm #

    Well, that does provide additional confirmation.

    Bonsall Obot: So the only way Mannix could be Zullo is if Zullo is a known, demonstrable, shameless liar?

    I’ll buy that.

  113. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 20, 2014 at 3:00 pm #

    bgansel9:
    Sorry, that’s the wrong link: http://www.yellowpages.com/cave-creek-az/internet-service-providers-isp

    Notice several at the bottom are in Scottsdale and Phoenix.

    See my other response. Most of the Yellow Page listings look like resellers to me but it doesn’t matter.

  114. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 3:03 pm #

    CarlOrcas: The owner does not…..repeat does not….have to be located in Cave Creek to have an IP registered there

    I realize this. At the same time, there are not 10,000 IP’s in Cave Creek. There are not 100,000 IP’s in Cave Creek. A large portion of the ones that are there are local with 2 and 3 users.

  115. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 3:09 pm #

    Bonsall Obot: No Birfer will take the bet, because no Birfer actually believes their own spew

    VVV surely doesn’t. Just another drive-by troll.

  116. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 20, 2014 at 3:15 pm #

    bgansel9: I realize this. At the same time, there are not 10,000 IP’s in Cave Creek. There are not 100,000 IP’s in Cave Creek. A large portion of the ones that are there are local with 2 and 3 users.

    I give up.

    The horse is dead…..and it didn’t leave it’s IP address.

  117. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 3:18 pm #

    CarlOrcas: I give up.

    The horse is dead…..and it didn’t leave it’s IP address

    Whatever. Cave Creek is not a bastion for non-locals to get internet connectivity and while I realize that a person in Cave Creek can have an IP in India (for one example) the suggestion that an IP from Cave Creek has been suspected of belonging to a certain person and the person lives in that same area suggests they are probably (and I did not say obviously, or exactly, I said PROBABLY) the same person.

  118. avatar
    Rickey May 20, 2014 at 3:51 pm #

    Dave B.:
    Zullo’s not old enough to have been in school in 1963.

    You’re correct. He was three years old when JFK was assassinated.

  119. avatar
    Rickey May 20, 2014 at 3:56 pm #

    VeniVidiVici:

    I don’t have anything against Obama supporters personally.many in my family supported him and a smaller percentage of them are part of the liberal elite.

    How does one gain entrance into the liberal elite? Is there an application which has to be filled out? Is there an initiation ceremony? Do you get something which shows that you are a card-carrying member of the liberal elite?

  120. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 4:11 pm #

    How does one tell if their family member is the liberal elite?

  121. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 20, 2014 at 4:18 pm #

    If you’re interested, I know somebody that knows somebody.

    Rickey: How does one gain entrance into the liberal elite?

  122. avatar
    wrecking ball May 20, 2014 at 4:18 pm #

    bgansel9:
    How does one tell if their family member is the liberal elite?

    leather elbow patches on their corduroy jacket.

  123. avatar
    Arthur May 20, 2014 at 4:18 pm #

    VeniVidiVici: God Bless and I truly hope that you are wiser after this episode ends.

    Two can play at that game.

  124. avatar
    wrecking ball May 20, 2014 at 4:26 pm #

    i noticed “joe mannix” using “handwriting attestations” to describe reed hayes. i did a search on city-data and all the matches were “britt reid”:

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/34419761-post21.html

    + 3 more plus one from sock puppet “mr jim robinson”:

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/1880407-hawaiian-court-certified-document-fraud-expert-44.html#post30225601

  125. avatar
    J.D. Sue May 20, 2014 at 4:27 pm #

    VeniVidiVici: what is amazing to me is the level of allegiance in the face of evidence. you say, what evidence is there? I will tell you that they do have evidence and it will change the landscape of America (not just political) forever.

    —–
    what is amazing to me is the level of lack of allegiance in the face of unsubstantiated gossip. you say, what more evidence do you need? I will tell you that they have not offered any evidence, and it will not change the landscape of America (not just political) forever because no evidence is in evidence.

  126. avatar
    J.D. Sue May 20, 2014 at 4:34 pm #

    wrecking ball: bgansel9:
    How does one tell if their family member is the liberal elite?

    leather elbow patches on their corduroy jacket.

    —-
    They used to smoke a pipe and talk while resting an arm on a fireplace mantle, but nowadays I’m not sure what they do and how to tell.

  127. avatar
    Reality Check May 20, 2014 at 4:34 pm #

    :lol: Yes, since you put it that way.

    I am still not sold but it really doesn’t matter whether Zullo is Joe Mannix or not. We know these things:

    – Zullo is not very bright
    -Zullo hates Obama
    – Zullo buys into every anti Obama lie coming and going.
    – Zullo lies

    To VVV;

    Yeah pardon us if we do not believe you. How many Zullo lies do you want us to ignore and believe you? The first two press conferences were nothing but dredged up Birther lies. We heard for almost a year that “VIP’s” and Congress members were “on board”. That turned out to be a lie. We heard that Joe Arpaio had full time deputies working on the investigation. That turned out to be a lie. We heard that “universe shattering” evidence would be released in March and that turned out to be a lie. I could go on VVV. So pardon us if we laugh at you. On second thought we don’t care.

    Bonsall Obot: So the only way Mannix could be Zullo is if Zullo is a known, demonstrable, shameless liar?

    I’ll buy that.

  128. avatar
    Bonsall Obot May 20, 2014 at 4:40 pm #

    Rickey:

    How does one gain entrance into the liberal elite?

    It’s like Skull & Bones; you have to be “tapped.” This will occur when enough members of the existing elite look upon you and say “I’d tap that.”

    bgansel9:

    How does one tell if their family member is the liberal elite?

    Stay alert for the subtle scent of arugala; the elite eat it at every meal.

  129. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 4:42 pm #

    wrecking ball: i noticed “joe mannix” using “handwriting attestations” to describe reed hayes. i did a search on city-data and all the matches were “britt reid”:

    So Joe Mannix and Britt Reid are the same, but they are still both names of characters.

    Jim Robinson, on the other hand, offers many possibilities, none that I can see with Superhero status, but, a certain Free Republic owner is among this huge list of names. That said, there are so many Jim Robinsons in the world that I’m sure some of them are just complete nobodys:: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Robinson

  130. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 4:43 pm #

    J.D. Sue: They used to smoke a pipe and talk while resting an arm on a fireplace mantle

    My father did that and he was a staunch Republican.

  131. avatar
    Dave B. May 20, 2014 at 4:45 pm #

    I have a cousin who is a college professor. I hadn’t seen him for a few years, and he showed up at my Mama’s house while I was visiting. Drives up in a Volvo, gets out sporting a goatee, wearing a tweed jacket with the elbow patches. I nearly died.

    J.D. Sue: wrecking ball: bgansel9:
    How does one tell if their family member is the liberal elite?

    leather elbow patches on their corduroy jacket.

    —-
    They used to smoke a pipe and talk while resting an arm on a fireplace mantle, but nowadays I’m not sure what they do and how to tell.

  132. avatar
    justlw May 20, 2014 at 4:48 pm #

    VeniVidiVici: I will tell you that they do have evidence and it will change the landscape of America (not just political) forever.

    Dammit, who spilled the beans on “Plan Supervolcano” ?? Lock down Yellowstone now!

  133. avatar
    Reality Check May 20, 2014 at 4:49 pm #

    Veni

    Are you the same person who made these predcitions in early March at BR:

    VeniVidiVici · 10 weeks ago
    1. MCSD evidence release. 2.Alabama SC ruling. 3.USSC accepting paige v. vermont. 4.pop goes the weasel.

    How did those work out? I haven’t heard any popping.

    And how about this one today?

    VeniVidiVici · 22 hours ago
    I don’t know for sure but it sure seems like the chief justice of the supreme court of the united states is being blackmailed (double entendre intended) because he’s GAY.

    Would you care to provide some evidence for that claim?

    VeniVidiVici: like many of my relatives (with a few important exceptions), you will probably ridicule this post as typical birther braggadocio. but please, do not say that I didn’t give you a heads up.

  134. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 4:56 pm #

    Reality Check: Veni

    Are you the same person who made these predcitions in early March at BR:

    VeniVidiVici · 10 weeks ago
    1. MCSD evidence release. 2.Alabama SC ruling. 3.USSC accepting paige v. vermont. 4.pop goes the weasel.

    That’s superb sleuthing, RC!

  135. avatar
    J.D. Sue May 20, 2014 at 5:02 pm #

    Bonsall Obot: Stay alert for the subtle scent of arugala; the elite eat it at every meal.

    —-
    When they first started mocking arugala-eating people, I thought they were saying “rugelach” and wondered what kind of new anti-antisemitism was condemning my favorite bakery treat that my Grandmother used to make.

  136. avatar
    Arthur May 20, 2014 at 5:02 pm #

    Reality Check: Are you the same person who made these predcitions in early March at BR:

    Birther predictions . . . they always remind me of that rom-com from the late ’80s: “When Epic Met Failure.”

  137. avatar
    Reality Check May 20, 2014 at 5:02 pm #

    Thanks. I missed a typo “predictions”.

    Just some advice to vvv: this isn’t BR. When you come to play in the big league you better bring your big league game. Bob Nelson isn’t here to protect you.

    bgansel9: That’s superb sleuthing, RC!

  138. avatar
    wrecking ball May 20, 2014 at 5:06 pm #

    bgansel9:
    Jim Robinson, on the other hand, offers many possibilities, none that I can see with Superhero status, but, a certain Free Republic owner ….

    frank arduini pointed that out to me while “britt” was posting under that name. if you read thru the threads started by “mr jim robinson” you’ll see it’s the same person as “britt reid” ( and therefor “joe mannix” ).

  139. avatar
    J.D. Sue May 20, 2014 at 5:10 pm #

    J.D. Sue: what kind of new anti-antisemitism


    whoops. that was supposed to be only one anti-semitism

  140. avatar
    VeniVidiVici May 20, 2014 at 5:40 pm #

    ADA = liberal elite among a few other organizations

    past a certain point of authority, the lines between democrat and republican blur. I was given an opportunity to go to a university that, if I had done as well as expected, would have been given access to positions and people that most hard working people don’t get immediate access to if at all.

    there is so much more than the lower tier struggle between birthers and obots going on in America.

  141. avatar
    VeniVidiVici May 20, 2014 at 5:42 pm #

    bgansel9, yes it was me. ant hill poking…..busted.

  142. avatar
    Arthur B. May 20, 2014 at 5:56 pm #

    VeniVidiVici:
    bgansel9, yes it was me.ant hill poking…..busted.

    What does that mean — that you were 100% sure that your bogus predictions didn’t have a prayer of coming true, but you’re 100% certain of the ones you’re making today?

  143. avatar
    wrecking ball May 20, 2014 at 5:57 pm #

    VeniVidiVici:

    there is so much more than the lower tier struggle between birthers and obots going on in America.

    yep……. but not on this forum. please stay focused if you’d like to contribute to the conversation.

  144. avatar
    donna May 20, 2014 at 6:10 pm #

    J.D. Sue:

    your posts are priceless and chuck full of legal info too – now I’M craving “rugelach”

  145. avatar
    J.D. Sue May 20, 2014 at 6:13 pm #

    VeniVidiVici: ADA = liberal elite among a few other organizations

    —-

    The American Dental Association?

  146. avatar
    Rickey May 20, 2014 at 6:16 pm #

    Bonsall Obot: It’s like Skull & Bones; you have to be “tapped.” This will occur when enough members of the existing elite look upon you and say “I’d tap that.”

    Is that something I should look forward to?

  147. avatar
    VeniVidiVici May 20, 2014 at 6:17 pm #

    JD, I hope you’re joking and if not, I hope J.D. isn’t short for juris doctorate.

    http://www.adaction.org/pages/about.php

  148. avatar
    VeniVidiVici May 20, 2014 at 6:22 pm #

    Arthur, there was one true one in there. ;)

  149. avatar
    Rickey May 20, 2014 at 6:23 pm #

    VeniVidiVici:
    ADA = liberal elite among a few other organizations

    But anybody can join ADA if you pay the $20 annual dues. They will even accept you, if you come across with the scratch. How can it be an elite organization if everyone is eligible?

    I don’t know about you, but If I ever become an elite I want to be able to look down on the people who don’t make the cut.

  150. avatar
    VeniVidiVici May 20, 2014 at 6:31 pm #

    rickey, really? well, I think you’ve missed your chance to be one of the liberal elite, or for that matter, any member of an upper tier social group. better luck next lifetime.

  151. avatar
    JPotter May 20, 2014 at 6:31 pm #

    VeniVidiVici: there is so much more than the lower tier struggle between birthers and obots going on in America.

    I so wish you mean that in the obvious, rational …. but am resigned to looking forward to your rabid conspiracizing.

  152. avatar
    Bonsall Obot May 20, 2014 at 6:42 pm #

    Rickey: Is that something I should look forward to?

    No one expects the Span- … er, being tapped by the elites.

  153. avatar
    Bonsall Obot May 20, 2014 at 6:43 pm #

    VeniVidiVici:

    there is so much more than the lower tier struggle between birthers and obots going on in America.

    You seem to be operating under the delusion that there is a “struggle.”

    There isn’t. We’re laughing at you.

  154. avatar
    VeniVidiVici May 20, 2014 at 6:48 pm #

    bonsall, you sound delusional. jpotter, you sound like you’re trying too hard.

  155. avatar
    Bonsall Obot May 20, 2014 at 6:50 pm #

    VeniVidiVici:

    bonsall, you sound delusional.

    “I know you are, but what am I?” is the entirety of your argument?

    Really?

    Even john does better. How unutterably sad

  156. avatar
    Sef May 20, 2014 at 6:55 pm #

    VeniVidiVici: I will tell you that they do have evidence and it will change the landscape of America (not just political) forever.

    Another “True Believer”.

  157. avatar
    wrecking ball May 20, 2014 at 7:18 pm #

    VeniVidiVici:
    your responses didn’t surprise me.

    nor have yours. you’ve posted multiple times since this post but have avoided the topic/birtherism and haven’t addressed the fact that you contradicted yourself in you first post in this thread.

    i will ask directly and succinctly, i’d appreciate an answer in the same:

    are you privy to any cold case posse information that is not available to the general public?

  158. avatar
    Reality Check May 20, 2014 at 8:19 pm #

    Well that brings us back to where we were before vvv interrupted. It is obvious he has nothing to contribute.

    I still do not see that “Joe Mannix” posted somewhere with an IP traceable to Cave Creek, AZ.

  159. avatar
    Rickey May 20, 2014 at 8:31 pm #

    VeniVidiVici:
    rickey, really?well, I think you’ve missed your chance to be one of the liberal elite, or for that matter, any member of an upper tier social group.

    I resemble that remark.

  160. avatar
    Bonsall Obot May 20, 2014 at 8:33 pm #

    Rickey: I resemble that remark.

    You should, it was a SICK BURN. YA BURNT, OBOT!

  161. avatar
    bgansel9 May 20, 2014 at 9:13 pm #

    VeniVidiVici: bgansel9, yes it was me. ant hill poking…..busted.

    Perhaps you didn’t see that I was not the one who “busted” you. That was Reality Check. Good work on his part, I say.

  162. avatar
    RanTalbott May 21, 2014 at 12:36 am #

    BillTheCat: Even the most white, southern, backwoods school would not have had children clapping to the announcement of the death of the US President

    Sadly, while it wouldn’t have been common, it’s quite credible. I lived in northern Alabama at the time, and we kept our boat in a marina that was a long (for a child) drive away. One of my landmarks for knowing we were getting close to the boat was the “Impeach Earl Warren” billboard we passed on the highway.

    There was a lot of virulent hatred of “meddlin’ Yankees” in the South back then, and the Kennedys were widely viewed as being among the meddlin’-est of the lot.

  163. avatar
    BillTheCat May 21, 2014 at 1:15 am #

    VeniVidiVici:
    what is forthcoming cannot be compared to Watergate because Watergate pales in comparison…….. do not say that I didn’t give you a heads up.

    Oh lordy, my sides, lol…. If there was a better, stronger word that I could use to describe you sad rubes, I would, but I’ll have to use the one available to me – “Delusional”.

    I’d recommend you seriously get a life, before it’s too late, but what’s the point?

  164. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 21, 2014 at 1:33 am #

    VeniVidiVici: what is forthcoming cannot be compared to Watergate because Watergate pales in comparison by orders of degree.

    Were you alive during Watergate?

  165. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 21, 2014 at 1:35 am #

    VeniVidiVici:
    your responses didn’t surprise me.you won’t believe that barry will be legally removed from office before his term ends until it happens.God Bless and I truly hope that you are wiser after this episode ends.

    When do you expect it to end?

  166. avatar
    Keith May 21, 2014 at 2:36 am #

    Bonsall Obot: He’s a propagandist

    I disagree with you. Corsi is a propagandist. Zullo is a con-man.

  167. avatar
    Keith May 21, 2014 at 2:56 am #

    bgansel9: You know you can look up ISP companies IN Cave Creek, right?

    http://www.internetaccesslocal.com/states/arizona/cave-creek/

    I have an IP address that is registered in Canada and another in Brisbane Australia and another in Melbourne Australia.

    What does does any of that say about my home address?

  168. avatar
    Craig HS May 21, 2014 at 4:58 am #

    That you’re an evil socialist monarchist!

  169. avatar
    JPotter May 21, 2014 at 5:04 am #

    Bonsall Obot: You seem to be operating under the delusion that there is a “struggle.”

    Laughter, struggle to contain. :D

  170. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich May 21, 2014 at 6:29 am #

    Tellingly, Joe Mannix seems to have disappeared. His last post – quoted above in the OP – was Monday morning. Since Doc published his conclusion here, ol’ Joe has gone underground. I think he realizes that he let the cat out of the bag. :D

  171. avatar
    jtmunkus May 21, 2014 at 6:39 am #

    BillTheCat:
    “My classmates clapped in my school when it was announced over the intercom that JFK was taken out”

    No, they didn’t. Just, no. Even the most white, southern, backwoods school would not have had children clapping to the announcement of the death of the US President. Liar.

    And Zullo wouldn’t have been out of diapers when Kennedy was shot.

  172. avatar
    RanTalbott May 21, 2014 at 7:19 am #

    Comrade Fogovich: I think he realizes that he let the cat out of the bag.

    Or maybe someone reminded him that he hadn’t gotten the new plates for his Crown Vic, and he had to spend the day at the MVD getting the paperwork straightened out (“I’m sorry, Mr. Zullo, but we can’t just take your word that you bought this car for 50 cents: you’ll need to go back and get a written receipt”).

  173. avatar
    RanTalbott May 21, 2014 at 7:23 am #

    jtmunkus: And Zullo wouldn’t have been out of diapers when Kennedy was shot.

    Well, there’s your proof: babies will clap for damned near anything, as long as they don’t perceive it as being a direct personal threat.

  174. avatar
    Reality Check May 21, 2014 at 8:22 am #

    Well there you go. It has been indirectly confirmed. :lol:

    Comrade Fogovich:
    Tellingly, Joe Mannix seems to have disappeared. His last post – quoted above in the OP – was Monday morning. Since Doc published his conclusion here, ol’ Joe has gone underground. I think he realizes that he let the cat out of the bag.

  175. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 21, 2014 at 8:43 am #

    And you know this how? Your IP address is not in Cave Creek, Arizona.

    VeniVidiVici: dc, joe mannix is not mike zullo although it is somewhat amusing that you think so. …

    I will tell you that they do have evidence and it will change the landscape of America (not just political) forever.

  176. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 21, 2014 at 8:45 am #

    Say what?

    VeniVidiVici: by orders of degree

  177. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 21, 2014 at 8:49 am #

    jtmunkus: And Zullo wouldn’t have been out of diapers when Kennedy was shot.

    I’m not so sure that Zullo is out of diapers now!

  178. avatar
    bgansel9 May 21, 2014 at 10:09 am #

    Keith: What does does any of that say about my home address?

    Only that the chances of you having an IP in a small town in Arizona of about 5,000 residents which has 74 IPs is really low. It’s zero since you gave me that info, but if I didn’t have it, the chances of you having a Cave Creek IP would be miniscule.

  179. avatar
    bgansel9 May 21, 2014 at 10:12 am #

    VeniVidiVici: rickey, really? well, I think you’ve missed your chance to be one of the liberal elite, or for that matter, any member of an upper tier social group. better luck next lifetime.

    What makes you think Rickey (or any other non-birther here) needs that?

  180. avatar
    bgansel9 May 21, 2014 at 10:15 am #

    jtmunkus: And Zullo wouldn’t have been out of diapers when Kennedy was shot.

    Actuallly, Zullo’s slightly older than I am. I was in diapers when Kennedy was shot. Zullo had probably graduated to training pants.

  181. avatar
    Reality Check May 21, 2014 at 10:15 am #

    I assume veni meant “orders of magnitude”.

    Mannix’s silence is interesting. I am coming around Doc.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Say what?

  182. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) May 21, 2014 at 10:17 am #

    VeniVidiVici: because Watergate pales in comparison by orders of degree.

    Dr. Conspiracy: Say what?

    I suppose he meant “by several orders of magnitude w.r.t. its degree” or something. Still funny to see how supposedly native-speaking birthers can’t handle English nearly as good as foreigners like me.

  183. avatar
    Curious George May 21, 2014 at 10:23 am #

    Comrade Fogovich
    May 21, 2014
    Tellingly, Joe Mannix seems to have disappeared. His last post – quoted above in the OP – was Monday morning. Since Doc published his conclusion here, ol’ Joe has gone underground. I think he realizes that he let the cat out of the bag.

    Hey Joe……..nah nah hah nah, nah nah nah nah, hey, hey, good bye!

    Burma Shave.

  184. avatar
    gorefan May 21, 2014 at 12:28 pm #

    wrecking ball: i noticed “joe mannix” using “handwriting attestations” to describe reed hayes. i did a search on city-data and all the matches were “britt reid”:

    A search for “handwriting attestations” in general found two examples:

    In the comments of this article in a response to Reality Check.

    http://blogs.rollcall.com/218/mullin-tells-birther-princess-he-believes-her-but-its-a-dead-issue/

    Cold Case Posse Supporter “What are your professional credentials in computer scanning as well as forensic document and handwriting attestations?”

    and here on Doc C’s site as Steve McGarrett:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2013/09/why-the-cold-case-posse-was-doomed-from-the-start/#comment-289752

    “Reed Hayes is more than qualified. He has made a living at it. He has experience in forensic handwriting and computer-generated document attestations. His professional credentials are impeccable in his field. He is trained to see things the average person can’t detect when it comes to forensic handwriting attestations, whether it is on paper or computer generated. To ridicule the man’s record for his work for someone you do not agree with is down right unethical and morally wrong.”

    Doc C:
    How far back can you check IP addresses on the comments posted to this site?

  185. avatar
    Bonsall Obot May 21, 2014 at 12:29 pm #

    Keith: I disagree with you. Corsi is a propagandist. Zullo is a con-man.

    OBOTS IN DISARRAY

  186. avatar
    J.D. Sue May 21, 2014 at 1:01 pm #

    donna: .D. Sue:

    your posts are priceless and chuck full of legal info too – now I’M craving “rugelach”

    —–
    Hey Donna, so glad you enjoy them. Mmmmmm, rugelach!

  187. avatar
    Thomas Brown May 21, 2014 at 1:12 pm #

    VeniVidiVici:
    your responses didn’t surprise me.you won’t believe that barry will be legally removed from office before his term ends until it happens.God Bless and I truly hope that you are wiser after this episode ends.

    Of course you won’t take the bet. That’s because you have not a single shred of evidence that BHO’s bio is incorrect, or that he is in any way ineligible to serve.

    I on the other hand am willing to bet $1000 of my hard-earned cash (I am a small business owner, so I guarantee it was hard-earned) behind the proposition that Barack Hussein Obama is exactly who he says he is. Period.

    Now, that’s all I’m backing: that he is 1) himself, 2) his bio (where he went to school, what he did before being elected, etc.) is accurate, and 3) he is a Natural Born Citizen; he is and always was eligible to serve.

    If the universe-shattering “evidence,” the ramifications of which will surpass Watergate, is about something else, something he himself as an eligible president did, that is not included in the wager because it isn’t about identity or eligibility. If your evidence shows that he actually did have Breitbart and Fuddy killed, or that he used to kill and eat white babies, the bet does not cover that.

    I suppose it’s possible Zullo has some information like that. Of course (pay attention, Birfoons) just claiming something like that based on hearsay and/or speculation doesn’t count. You would have to have real honest to God proof.

    The bet does cover the ridiculous accusation that he is now or ever was gay. That goes to identity.

    From what I have observed, I consider this bet a can’t-lose for me. I am utterly confident in BHO’s identity and biography. $1000 worth of certain. To anyone, by the way. Not just you. The offer is open to anyone stupid enough to put their real cash money behind the absurd notion that BHO is an illegitimate president or that the bizarre conspiracy theories regarding his origins and personal life have any truth to them.

    If you don’t take the bet, it means you are disingenuous about “knowing” that Zullo “has the goods” on Obama. It means you really know in your heart it’s all baloney.

  188. avatar
    Majority Will May 21, 2014 at 1:28 pm #

    Thomas Brown: Of course you won’t take the bet.That’s because you have not a single shred of evidence that BHO’s bio is incorrect, or that he is in any way ineligible to serve.

    I on the other hand am willing to bet $1000 of my hard-earned cash (I am a small business owner, so I guarantee it was hard-earned) behind the proposition that Barack Hussein Obama is exactly who he says he is.Period.

    Now, that’s all I’m backing: that he is 1) himself, 2) his bio (where he went to school, what he did before being elected, etc.) is accurate, and 3) he is a Natural Born Citizen; he is and always was eligible to serve.

    If the universe-shattering “evidence,” the ramifications of which will surpass Watergate, is about something else, something he himself as an eligible president did, that is not included in the wager because it isn’t about identity or eligibility.If your evidence shows that he actually did have Breitbart and Fuddy killed, or that he used to kill and eat white babies, the bet does not cover that.

    I suppose it’s possible Zullo has some information like that.Of course (pay attention, Birfoons) just claiming something like that based on hearsay and/or speculation doesn’t count.You would have to have real honest to God proof.

    The bet does cover the ridiculous accusation that he is now or ever was gay.That goes to identity.

    From what I have observed, I consider this bet a can’t-lose for me.I am utterly confident in BHO’s identity and biography.$1000 worth of certain.To anyone, by the way.Not just you.The offer is open to anyone stupid enough to put their real cash money behind the absurd notion that BHO is an illegitimate president or that the bizarre conspiracy theories regarding his origins and personal life have any truth to them.

    If you don’t take the bet, it means you are disingenuous about “knowing” that Zullo “has the goods” on Obama.It means you really know in your heart it’s all baloney.

    The current moronic troll or any other reality challenged birther bigot is too much of a coward to take you up on your challenge.

  189. avatar
    Rickey May 21, 2014 at 1:38 pm #

    Majority Will: The current moronic troll or any other reality challenged birther bigot is too much of a coward to take you up on your challenge.

    I’m still waiting for birthers to identify precisely what law they believe has been broken. The last time I checked it is still legal to President While Black.

  190. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 21, 2014 at 1:39 pm #

    It seems to me that the problem with having a bet with a birther is the same as the general argument. There is no “win” criteria that they would agree to and stick to it.

    Majority Will: The current moronic troll or any other reality challenged birther bigot is too much of a coward to take you up on your challenge.

  191. avatar
    Thomas Brown May 21, 2014 at 2:15 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    It seems to me that the problem with having a bet with a birther is the same as the general argument. There is no “win” criteria that they would agree to and stick to it.

    It would be tricky. Perhaps there are legal terms which can be applied as criteria, like maybe the bet could be that BHO has not “materially misrepresented” his bio. The eligibility is easy: I say the US Courts will not declare him ineligible for any reason before his term ends nor will Congress remove him for having been ineligible to serve.

    But you have a point, because while I would be comfortable with a reasonable umpire and escrow holder for the bet, no Birther would accept any authority that might rule against them.

  192. avatar
    Reality Check May 21, 2014 at 2:22 pm #

    I once tried to get Mark Gillar to take a bet for $1k that no one would go to jail by a specified date for anything related to Obama’s birth certificate and he was too chicken to take the bet. I offered the bet after after he loudly proclaimed at some forum that “people would go to jail over this”. The date has since passed.

  193. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 21, 2014 at 2:35 pm #

    IP addresses are part of your permanent record.

    I looked up that IP with 4 different IP locator services and got addresses in:

    Washington State
    Virginia
    California
    Illinois

    The company that owns the IP address block does provide service to Phoenix (and cities in all of the states listed above). Their major metropolitan service for the US list is:

    Atlanta
    Boston
    Chicago
    Dallas
    Denver
    Houston
    Las Vegas
    Los Angeles
    Miami
    Minneapolis
    New York
    Philadelphia
    Phoenix
    Salt Lake City
    San Francisco
    San Jose
    Seattle
    Washington, D.

    I tried a tracert on the number and it timed out after being routed from Atlanta to New York city (based on the DNS). The IP itself has no DNS record. That IP address appears only once in comments.

    Note: If I had a more definitive answer, I probably wouldn’t have answered the question.

    gorefan: Doc C:
    How far back can you check IP addresses on the comments posted to this site?

  194. avatar
    wrecking ball May 21, 2014 at 2:46 pm #

    gorefan: A search for “handwriting attestations” in general found two examples:

    i’m convinced that “joe mannix” is “steve mcgarrett/britt reid/et al”. now, is mike zullo joe mannix?……… highly unlikely imo.

    if you can link zullo to “mcgarrett” you’ll be connecting him to a wealth of racist comments. in that scenario it would be fun to see just how fast arpaio could move his blubber butt to throw zullo under the bus.

  195. avatar
    Reality Check May 21, 2014 at 3:20 pm #

    Thanks to Orly Mike Zullo’s email address is publicly available. The domain is “earthlink.net”

  196. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 21, 2014 at 4:20 pm #

    I could not tie the McGarrett IP address to Earthlink. It went to nLayer which was bought by GTT Communications, a separately traded company from Earthlink Holdings. There still could be some local reseller involved.

    Reality Check: Thanks to Orly Mike Zullo’s email address is publicly available. The domain is “earthlink.net”

  197. avatar
    Bonsall Obot May 21, 2014 at 4:22 pm #

    Reality Check:
    I once tried to get Mark Gillar to take a bet for $1k that no one would go to jail by a specified datefor anything related to Obama’s birth certificate and he was too chicken to take the bet. I offered the bet after after he loudly proclaimed at some forum that “people would go to jail over this”. The date has since passed.

    He should have taken the bet.

    Several Birfers have already gone to jail; it’s just a matter of time before one does for a BC-related crime. They can’t leave it alone.

  198. avatar
    Majority Will May 21, 2014 at 7:50 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    It seems to me that the problem with having a bet with a birther is the same as the general argument. There is no “win” criteria that they would agree to and stick to it.

    Good point.

  199. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 21, 2014 at 9:07 pm #

    Zullo’s email and password was one of those breached in the big Adobe break-in back in 2013.

    https://dazzlepod.com/adobe/

    Reality Check: Thanks to Orly Mike Zullo’s email address is publicly available. The domain is “earthlink.net”

  200. avatar
    Suranis May 21, 2014 at 9:18 pm #

    Its basically the value of a degree doc. For example here is a list of the value of degrees.

    Degree in Economics
    Degree in computer science
    Degree in Science
    Toilet Paper
    Degree in Arts

    Dr. Conspiracy: Say what?

    VeniVidiVici: by orders of degree

  201. avatar
    Lyssandri May 22, 2014 at 1:19 am #

    Bonsall Obot: Haven’t you heard? Tax avoidance is patriotism these days.

    Damn straight it is! If we keep our tax dollars away from them federales, then those dirty Dems can’t goi turn them over to those lazy shiftless people who don’t look nothing like any of us and keep stealing our government by refusing to vote for Republicans!! How more patriotic can you be in to make sure those idjits who are too lazy to work and too dumb to think aren’t able to take away what is rightfully ours!

  202. avatar
    Lyssandri May 22, 2014 at 1:36 am #

    VeniVidiVici: Privacy

    Yeah, and everybody was sure that things were going to go completely haywire when we hit the year 2000 and the computers were all going to suddenly break down. My prediction is that Zullo’s investigation is going to be just as much of a bust compared to the hype surrounding it as Y2K was.

  203. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) May 22, 2014 at 3:46 am #

    Lyssandri: My prediction is that Zullo’s investigation is going to be just as much of a bust compared to the hype surrounding it as Y2K was.

    I prefer to compare it to the 2012 Mayan calendar hype.

  204. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich May 22, 2014 at 5:40 am #

    Three days have now passed since this article was posted, and Mannix is still MIA.

    Things that make ya go “Hmm.” :D

  205. avatar
    Crustacean May 22, 2014 at 5:58 am #

    Lyssandri: Yeah, and everybody was sure that things were going to go completely haywire when we hit the year 2000 and the computers were all going to suddenly break down. My prediction is that Zullo’s investigation is going to be just as much of a bust compared to the hype surrounding it as Y2K was.

    I proofread a “Y2K Prepper” manual written by one of my adult-ed students. It was your standard post-apocalyptic preparedness stuff, and pretty flimsy in regards to explaining exactly WHY I should liquify all my assets and go live in a hole in the ground. In other words, they didn’t really understand the technical issues involved, and yet were more than happy to start drawing conclusions. Clearly something we see in birthers.

    But my (very much above ground) home is in earthquake country, so at least I can say I probably picked up some good disaster-preparedness tips from that gig. The only thing I ever learned from birthers is just how low some folk are willing to go.

    I’d say the Y2K preppers were basically people with over-active imaginations. And that little potentiometer we all have in our minds that makes us prepare for/fear/expect the worst? For them – and, I suppose, Mayan end-timers, as well – that pot is turned up to eleven. Birthers have over-active imaginations, too, but they also have a variety of other vile demons they’re dealing with, as you all know well.

    Here’s the big difference: on January 1, 2000, Y2K-niacs woke up, saw that their towns were, in fact, NOT burning hellscapes, shrugged and said, hey, at least we have enough baked beans to last us a hundred Fourths of July. Birthers don’t get to wake up to a bright New Year’s Day, and they don’t get their New Independence Day. They get Lt. Zero and the worst lawyer in the history of lawyers. They get nothing. That is their fate.

    Well, that and us mocking the bejesus out of them.

  206. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 22, 2014 at 7:50 am #

    It’s not unprecedented for anybody to go offline for any number of reasons, and the Mannix character didn’t post in the “two weeks ago” category. I did poke the ant hill:

    http://www.birtherreport.com/2014/04/veteran-broadcaster-why-is-obama-using.html#IDComment833717872

    Comrade Fogovich: Things that make ya go “Hmm.”

  207. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich May 22, 2014 at 9:00 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    It’s not unprecedented for anybody to go offline for any number of reasons …

    Oh, I know. I disappear on occasion myself. I’m just looking at clouds and trying to see animals. :D

  208. avatar
    Keith May 22, 2014 at 10:14 am #

    Crustacean: I proofread a “Y2K Prepper” manual written by one of my adult-ed students. It was your standard post-apocalyptic preparedness stuff, and pretty flimsy in regards to explaining exactly WHY I should liquify all my assets and go live in a hole in the ground. In other words, they didn’t really understand the technical issues involved, and yet were more than happy to start drawing conclusions. Clearly something we see in birthers.

    There was, however, some possible very nasty scenarios if the Y2K issues hadn’t been cleaned up. The thing that the doomsayers missed was that 99.44% of all the critical systems had been ‘clean’ since at least 1990. Nuke plants weren’t going to go critical at the stroke of midnight and water plants weren’t going to go offline, planes were not going to fall out of the sky. Most ‘big’ companies used SAP or Oracle Financials or BAAN something similar by 1995 and when SAP was fixed, it was fixed for everybody that used it – so Banks weren’t going to melt down and car plants were not catch on fire.

    I found a bug in the Y2K patch for SAP (the leap year calculation in the Human Resources module incorrectly identified the year 2000 as a leap year – hardly an earth shattering issue – and got it fixed for everyone) I worked on a bit of legacy COBOL code, cause I was just about the only one left that could read COBOL, but none of it was critical: a report here, a labor reporting system interface there.

    Never-the-less, I still thought there was room for the odd ‘glitch’. Does Borneo or Swaziland have the resources to update all their ancient telephone exchanges? Has someone missed out on updating that old box in the corner of the computer room that serves some minor but critical service to the bank’s ATM network? But it didn’t happen, and I attribute that to good planning and good execution.

    The non-event of Y2K is a great success story, not a an expensive waste of time.

  209. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 22, 2014 at 11:03 am #

    I did quite a bit of Y2K remediation work in COBOL back in the day. It was labor-intensive, but not all that hard. We developed a library of date formatting, arithmetic and conversion routines (with date windows), and then fed everything through them. It went quite smoothly.

    Our company got some business because folks were running systems that were not Y2K compliant, and the software was no longer supported.

    Keith: I worked on a bit of legacy COBOL code, cause I was just about the only one left that could read COBOL, but none of it was critical: a report here, a labor reporting system interface there.

  210. avatar
    wrecking ball May 22, 2014 at 12:25 pm #

    Comrade Fogovich:
    Three days have now passed since this article was posted, and Mannix is still MIA.

    Things that make ya go “Hmm.”

    i’ve got to admit, i’m a little surprised that “joe mannix/britt reid” hasn’t responded yet. i would have expected him to be absolutely giddy over being accused of being zullo. the guy is in absolute love with the bad lieutenant, second only to sarah palin ( whose every word he treats like porn ).

  211. avatar
    Reality Check May 22, 2014 at 12:46 pm #

    Keith: I found a bug in the Y2K patch for SAP (the leap year calculation in the Human Resources module incorrectly identified the year 2000 as a leap year –

    2000 was a leap year. 1900 was not.

    Keith: The non-event of Y2K is a great success story, not a an expensive waste of time.

    Absolutely correct.

  212. avatar
    J.D. Sue May 22, 2014 at 1:52 pm #

    Keith: There was, however, some possible very nasty scenarios if the Y2K issues hadn’t been cleaned up. ……..
    The non-event of Y2K is a great success story, not a an expensive waste of time.

    Yes. In the mid-80s, I was a systems data auditor, and we very concerned about the fact that our systems only had 6 digits for the date field, and the month, day, and year fields were not always in the same order. We spent a decade trying to get management to allow time and money to do something. That was a very real problem, and obviously the techies did a great job resolving it.

  213. avatar
    Dave B. May 22, 2014 at 2:26 pm #

    I never did quite get the whole Y2K thing. I was an instrument tech, and worked on control systems in all sorts of industrial settings. I never saw an application where having the wrong date, or a nonsensical date, or no date at all would cause a system to fail. Time of day wasn’t even a factor in most applications, much less the year.

    Keith: There was, however, some possible very nasty scenarios if the Y2K issues hadn’t been cleaned up.

  214. avatar
    J.D. Sue May 22, 2014 at 2:51 pm #

    Dave B.: I never saw an application where having the wrong date, or a nonsensical date, or no date at all would cause a system to fail.

    —-
    Maybe it doesn’t matter so much in an industrial setting. Think about other applications that must have data about people. E.g., a birth date is used to calculate someone’s age, it is used to help identify a person . . . There are agreement effective dates, expiration dates, and so on. They are not only important data about a subject, each date may be used in the calculation of time–e.g., my notice in the mail that says it’s time to renew my insurance policy, or my payment is over 5 days late, etc.

  215. avatar
    Dave B. May 22, 2014 at 5:00 pm #

    I can understand that, but people were predicting all sorts of control system failures– failures in ANYTHING with a computer involved. It just didn’t make sense.

    J.D. Sue: —-
    Maybe it doesn’t matter so much in an industrial setting. Think about other applications that must have data about people.E.g., a birth date is used to calculate someone’s age, it is used to help identify a person . . .There are agreement effective dates, expiration dates, and so on.They are not only important data about a subject, each date may be used in the calculation of time–e.g., my notice in the mail that says it’s time to renew my insurance policy, or my payment is over 5 days late, etc.

  216. avatar
    Reality Check May 22, 2014 at 5:03 pm #

    Joe Mannix is back at BR pushing the two week old Arpaio interview.

  217. avatar
    Curious George May 22, 2014 at 6:30 pm #

    Reality Check:
    Joe Mannix is back at BR pushing the two week old Arpaio interview.

    The question for the day for in the know Joe Mannix…….How much money has the Cold Case Posse brought in since late 2011 and how was it spent? Did any of the members use the funds for personal expenses? So what’s the word, Joe?

  218. avatar
    Jim May 22, 2014 at 7:05 pm #

    Reality Check:
    Joe Mannix is back at BR pushing the two week old Arpaio interview.

    Guess all the poking worked. Still no evidence of any wrongdoing by the President though.

  219. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 22, 2014 at 7:47 pm #

    So I write that Joe Mannix at Birther Report is Mike Zullo, and immediately Mannix stops posting. Then it is suggested here that the silence of Joe Mannix proves that he is Zullo, and then immediately Mannix starts posting again. Wheels within wheels.

    Reality Check: Joe Mannix is back at BR pushing the two week old Arpaio interview.

  220. avatar
    Curious George May 23, 2014 at 8:45 am #

    Doc C,
    “So I write that Joe Mannix at Birther Report is Mike Zullo, and immediately Mannix stops posting. Then it is suggested here that the silence of Joe Mannix proves that he is Zullo, and then immediately Mannix starts posting again. Wheels within wheels.”

    Burma Shave.

  221. avatar
    Lyssandri May 23, 2014 at 10:50 am #

    My comparison to the y2k situation was only intended to be about the level of hype vs the underwhelming reality. Unlike birthers, the y2k alarmists had at least some substance to their concerns, but in both situations there was a huge build-up and then nothing (or very little) happened.

  222. avatar
    Keith May 23, 2014 at 11:48 am #

    Reality Check: 2000 was a leap year. 1900 was not.

    Hmmm, good catch. I got that backwards. The SAP algorithm was not checking for division by 400 and was incorrectly NOT identifying 2000 as a leap year.

    Thanks for kicking me back into line.

  223. avatar
    Reality Check May 23, 2014 at 12:01 pm #

    I hope I didn’t sound snarky. I didn’t mean to be. I figured that you meant it the other way. The leap year/century scheme omitting 3 leap years in every 400 years was added in the Gregorian calendar to fix a problem with the Julian calendar that had caused the calendar dates to slowly get out of synch with the equinoxes.

    Keith: Thanks for kicking me back into line.

  224. avatar
    Keith May 23, 2014 at 12:01 pm #

    Dave B.:
    I can understand that, but people were predicting all sorts of control system failures– failures in ANYTHING with a computer involved.It just didn’t make sense.

    Exactly.

    I can conceive of say, a ships navigation system that might want the accurate date and time to calculate tidal movements. But that kind of system would have been using a date in a form as received from some standardized signal like the National Bureau of Standards.

    Problems might crop up in billing calculations, due dates, all that kind of stuff, and none of that kind of stuff is going to make a plane fall out of the sky. It might cause utilities to be shut off or huge bills, but it won’t make the gas plant explode.

  225. avatar
    Reality Check May 23, 2014 at 12:04 pm #

    According to Carl Galoops “Arpaio or either Zullo” will be on fact free Friday today with breaking news. So what about Joe Mannix? Only breaking? Not universe shattering?

  226. avatar
    aarrgghh May 23, 2014 at 12:21 pm #

    the shattering’s now just days away, according to at least one freeper:

    stickywillie: “barry’ll sure be thinkin’ about the fraudulent birth certificate on May 26th, when Sheriff Joe announces the results of his cold case posse….May 26th is his latest projection for the release. 6 weeks, 2 days.”

  227. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) May 23, 2014 at 12:53 pm #

    Keith: It might cause utilities to be shut off or huge bills, but it won’t make the gas plant explode.

    I think the concern was something like “if the nuclear power plant cooling system suddenly decides it hasn’t been serviced in 100 years, it will shut down and cause a meltdown”. But since meltdown is the worst case scenario, I don’t think there’s ever been any “shut down if…” routine anywhere.

  228. avatar
    Dave B. May 23, 2014 at 1:24 pm #

    Elapsed time is a much more important variable in industrial processes than calendar time. If you’re baking a birthday cake, the cake doesn’t care what day it is; all that matters to the cake is how long you bake it.

    The Magic M (not logged in): I think the concern was something like “if the nuclear power plant cooling system suddenly decides it hasn’t been serviced in 100 years, it will shut down and cause a meltdown”. But since meltdown is the worst case scenario, I don’t think there’s ever been any “shut down if…” routine anywhere.

  229. avatar
    Jim May 23, 2014 at 2:31 pm #

    Dave B.:
    I can understand that, but people were predicting all sorts of control system failures– failures in ANYTHING with a computer involved.It just didn’t make sense.

    Next possible failures in 2038

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem

  230. avatar
    J.D. Sue May 23, 2014 at 2:41 pm #

    Keith: Problems might crop up in billing calculations, due dates, all that kind of stuff, and none of that kind of stuff is going to make a plane fall out of the sky.

    —-

    This is an interesting discussion. I know next-to-zero about aviation systems, industrial applications, etc.

    But failing business applications is no joke.

    As you likely know, there was once a reason the original records had only 6 bytes for a date–there really wasn’t room for more on those limited records. Also, many of the systems had been quickly built by various local geniuses, who wrote code according to their genius–but without standards. (The standards either didn’t exist yet, or simply had not been implemented). Most vulnerable were money-number crunching applications–such as banking, insurance, payroll, etc.–because they were the oldest legacy systems still crunching away after all those years. In some (most) cases, applications were built without any documentation (management refused to pay for documentation time) and there was no one still around who could explain things from memory or their own personal documentation. Systems fed into systems, and so on, and so long as it worked, nobody with authority seemed to care. None of it was designed to last into a new millennium .

  231. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 23, 2014 at 3:00 pm #

    A lot of it was inexperience with legacy systems. I certainly never dreamed that Code I was writing in 1980 would still be in use 20 years later.

    J.D. Sue: As you likely know, there was once a reason the original records had only 6 bytes for a date–there really wasn’t room for more on those limited records. Also, many of the systems had been quickly built by various local geniuses, who wrote code according to their genius–but without standards.

  232. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 23, 2014 at 3:06 pm #

    My oven clock doesn’t even have AM/PM.

    Dave B.: If you’re baking a birthday cake, the cake doesn’t care what day it is; all that matters to the cake is how long you bake it.

  233. avatar
    Bonsall Obot May 23, 2014 at 3:08 pm #

    Jim: Next possible failures in 2038

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem

    Precisely 29 years after The Usurpation.

    Wheels within wheels.

  234. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 23, 2014 at 3:09 pm #

    Now if we could only do for climate change what was done for Y2K.

    The Magic M (not logged in): I think the concern was something like “if the nuclear power plant cooling system suddenly decides it hasn’t been serviced in 100 years, it will shut down and cause a meltdown”. But since meltdown is the worst case scenario, I don’t think there’s ever been any “shut down if…” routine anywhere.

  235. avatar
    J.D. Sue May 23, 2014 at 4:06 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I certainly never dreamed that Code I was writing in 1980 would still be in use 20 years later.

    —-
    If you haven’t yet, I recommend you read “You Are Not a Gadget: A Manifesto” by Jaron Lanier. I love that book and your comment reminded me of one of his essential points: that an application is built for a particular application–the decisions the designer made did not contemplate that it become the standard/foundation to be ingrained in other applications. (I hope I said that right; really, it’s a great book on many levels).

  236. avatar
    RanTalbott May 23, 2014 at 4:55 pm #

    J.D. Sue: In some (most) cases, applications were built without any documentation

    Oh, that wasn’t the worst of it.
    One of my first jobs, over 40 years ago, was with a timesharing company. We had a project to migrate an organization from their ancient 1401 to running everything on our central IBM mainframes.

    We had to build a custom 1401 emulator to run some of their programs while the system was being redesigned and rewritten, because they had several programs where someone had patched the object deck without changing the source or documenting the change. And had made some changes that relied on characteristics of that particular 1401, like how addresses wrapped around when you tried to access memory that wasn’t installed, and what addresses were assigned to specific peripherals.

    Those were, as they say, “interesting times”.

  237. avatar
    J.D. Sue May 23, 2014 at 8:40 pm #

    RanTalbott: We had to build a custom 1401 emulator to run some of their programs while the system was being redesigned and rewritten, because they had several programs where someone had patched the object deck without changing the source or documenting the change. And had made some changes that relied on characteristics of that particular 1401, like how addresses wrapped around when you tried to access memory that wasn’t installed, and what addresses were assigned to specific peripherals.

    Those were, as they say, “interesting times”.

    —-
    Oy Vey! Amazing you guys were able to even figure out what had happened. And I bet your solutions ultimately led to a successful migration. I don’t think most people ever appreciate all that goes on–just to get a job done.

  238. avatar
    RanTalbott May 23, 2014 at 9:23 pm #

    J.D. Sue: Amazing you guys were able to even figure out what had happened

    Not really: the newer (at the time) mainframes were quite picky about letting programs mess with memory that wasn’t allocated to them, and specific in pointing out where the programmers had cheated. And a couple of the “cheaters” were still working for the customer, and could explain how and why they had cheated. Sometimes ;-). So the guy who was in charge of the emulator just had change it so it emulated that particular 1401, instead of a “generic” one. (I shouldn’t say “just” so blithely: iirc, it added about 25% to the original estimated completion time to find all those programs with “quirks” and develop workarounds)

    But those kinds of problems are fun, as long as someone else is paying for the extra hours. And you’re not staring at a prospect like an empty paid-for trade show booth if you miss the original deadline…

  239. avatar
    RanTalbott May 23, 2014 at 10:28 pm #

    J.D. Sue: the decisions the designer made did not contemplate that it become the standard/foundation to be ingrained in other applications.

    The techie jargon term you’re thinking of is probably “integrated”.

    That statement is widely true, but far from universally so. The Unix design philosophy, generally still followed in the Linux world, is to have a large box of small, special-purpose tools that can be plugged together, a little like Tinkertoys, to do complex things. So, for a lot of jobs (especially ones that you only do once, or rarely), instead of writing a custom program, you just write a command that passes your data through a sequence of those small tools to select out the parts of the data you want to examine, and do the math/reporting you want done to it. At most, you might write a few lines of Perl or awk code that would be a subroutine in a custom program, and plug them into the script.

    Many of the GUI programs users rely on on Linux systems are actually just front ends that run the command-line programs by setting up the command parameters, and interpreting the output for the user. The people who wrote those commands almost always had in mind that they would wind up being controlled by GUIs and/or by scripts that users wrote to do repetitive tasks (like “Find all the files that have been changed this week, alert me to the ones that weren’t supposed to be changed, and back up the rest using the methods that I want used”).

    As more and more gets done through the Web, we see people incorporating news tickers, weather forecasts, and other “components” designed and run by others specifically for the purpose of being integrated into subscribers’ pages. Similar “software gadgets” are being developed for desktops and smartphone screens.

    There will always be lots of custom applications (especially in the segment I’m in which is mainly developing software for sensing and control systems), but there’s a definite trend toward designing tools and components for the prupose of being integrated by others into systems and environments tailored to their needs and/or desires.

  240. avatar
    Suranis May 23, 2014 at 11:11 pm #

    Yes, and as part of the fix they adjusted the calender back by 14 days. People actually got very upset by this because they felt like they were losing 14 days of their lives.

    Reality Check:
    I hope I didn’t sound snarky. I didn’t mean to be. I figured that you meant it the other way. The leap year/century scheme omitting 3 leap years in every 400 yearswas added in the Gregorian calendar to fix a problem with the Julian calendar that had caused the calendar dates to slowly get out of synch with the equinoxes.

  241. avatar
    Keith May 24, 2014 at 3:15 am #

    RanTalbott: We had a project to migrate an organization from their ancient 1401 to running everything on our central IBM mainframes.

    I love the 1401. That was a really fun machine. My first ‘real’ job, I was updating lots of programs that had been converted, in a hurry, from 1401 to 360 assembler. They were nightmares. They had been updated and patched and updated and patched over and over and over and every obsolete line of the original code had been left in the source deck (this was before code libraries, mind you) not commented out, just branched around. Arrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhh. I had to convert some program from using direct access files to ISAM. Should have taken me about 2 days at most. Two weeks later the boss walked by my desk and a looked at the flowchart I had been drawing up so I could figure out what was going on and made some smart-ass remark about spaghetti and I asked why can’t I just put this in the trash can and rewrite it in COBOL. He said go ahead and it was in production in 3 days.

  242. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 24, 2014 at 8:35 am #

    One of my first jobs was to write a teleprocessing monitor in 360 Assembler. It used BDAM to store user context on disk. Then I write a macro that generated IBM 3270 display terminal screen code for a lab system. Then came 370 Assembler with those cool MVCL and STCK instructions.

    Keith: My first ‘real’ job, I was updating lots of programs that had been converted, in a hurry, from 1401 to 360 assembler.

  243. avatar
    Keith May 24, 2014 at 10:09 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    One of my first jobs was to write a teleprocessing monitor in 360 Assembler. It used BDAM to store user context on disk. Then I write a macro that generated IBM 3270 display terminal screen code for a lab system. Then came 370 Assembler with those cool MVCL and STCK instructions.

    We were a beta site for CICS, I think for ISAM too. Nobody would let me go near it for 12 months. One of the other guys in the office would walk past a terminal and the system would go down. We used to get a big kick over that.

    I used to get in big “arguments” with the head analyst who insisted that every darn CICS macro should be expanded out in the program listing before it could go into the doco cabinet. She had been to the IBM course where they went through the macros in fine detail and was adamant that you couldn’t tell what was going on unless you had the full expansion in front of you. I said that unless you suspected there was a problem in the macro itself it did you absolutely no good whatsoever beyond turning a 10 page listing into a 40 page listing. I couldn’t win those arguments until she was promoted away from the front lines. By that time we had a code library (I still remember how much that threw some people for a loop). Crazy fun times.

  244. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 24, 2014 at 11:15 am #

    I did very little CICS (but a lot of ISAM until VSAM came out). Our company did a little IMS too (the first project we had was an IMS vital records system for the State of Wisconsin). I don’t remember exactly the details, but there was something you could move in the LINKAGE SECTION of a CISC COBOL program that caused spectacular crashes of CICS.

    Keith: We were a beta site for CICS, I think for ISAM too.