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The frenzy of discovery

It’s always helpful in the frenzy of discovery when nearing a solution to a complicated puzzle, to take a step back for a reality check. Case in point is the identification of what Sheriff Joe and his Posse have been incessantly promising Universe-shattering results about. Recent revelations in the Phoenix New Times that Arpaio has paid big bucks to a notorious scam artist for information about US Federal District Judge G. Murray Snow and US Attorney General Eric holder provide an emotionally satisfying answer: Arpaio and his Posse are credulous fools. In this moment of excitement where all of the pieces seem to line up it’s worth considering whether we are fooling ourselves and to ask a few questions:

  • Does any part of the story require unusual complexity or implausibility?
  • Has confirmation bias caused contrary evidence to be pushed aside?
  • Are the sources credible?
  • Is there a plausible alternative narrative?

I can’t answer these questions for you, as they involve trust and value judgments, but I will attempt to answer them for myself.

I think the story is plausible because the actors in the alleged narrative do things that they have done in the past. Sheriff Joe has gone after political enemies with bogus investigations, and he has bought into conspiracy theories. Dennis Montgomery has scammed people and used their technological ignorance to his advantage. He has fabricated evidence before in the form of altered emails, according to expert court testimony. There are plausible mechanisms for the two to connect up because Sheriff Joe’s Obama investigation is widely reported in the national press. Also another Cold Case Posse source, Doug Vogt, lives close to Montgomery. The nearest thing to implausibility in the story is the amount of money, $200,000, allegedly spent by the Sheriff’s Office on Montgomery’s information. That’s a lot of money and it allegedly come from a secret fund—one should always be wary of secret boxes where the best evidence is. Still, given the power of Arpaio, I can sort of buy the $200,000. Montgomery got $20 million from the US government for fake information.

One contrary item is that Cold Case Posse insider Brian Reilly had never heard of Dennis Montgomery. However, the Universe-shattering investigation allegedly involving Montgomery didn’t start until after Reilly had left the Posse. Nothing else comes to mind.

I tend to trust the Phoenix New Times. What is my source? Most of what I know about the New Times comes from the New Times. That’s problematic. The bulk of their information comes from an anonymous source.  They portray themselves as journalists with integrity battling the evil empire of Joe Arpaio. In their favor, they won a $3.5 million settlement against the Sheriff’s Office. Indeed the County has lost $55 million in payouts for false arrest and prosecution charges against the Sheriff’s Office and the Prosecutor. The story’s author, Stephen Lemons has won a string of journalism awards. I do not have wide experience with stories in the New Times and whether they are always reliable. There is one thing strongly in favor of the credibility of the story which is the account of both Arpaio and Montgomery refusing to deny their relationship, which it would have been trivially easy to do so. I would say that if the story is baseless, the New Times runs the risk of getting sued (or arrested?).

There are any number of alternate scenarios:

  1. The New Times made it all up out of spite.
  2. The New Times’ informant made it all up out of spite.
  3. Montgomery really has used his technical skills to uncover damning evidence against Eric Holder and Judge Snow, and is providing it to Arpaio. Indictments to follow.

None of those seems likely, with #2 the only one remotely plausible.

I invite readers to suggest things I overlooked, or to weigh in with their own evaluations, and other questions that need to be asked.

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127 Responses to The frenzy of discovery

  1. avatar
    Thinker June 6, 2014 at 10:05 am #

    I agree that the ‘unnamed source’ is the weakest element of this story. It means we trust Stephen Lemons that he isn’t scamming us and that he didn’t get scammed himself. My guess is that other local Phoenix media outlets are looking into the story right now. It seems to me that that there are not a lot of players in this story, so it would probably be pretty easy to figure out who these people are and confirm their stories.

  2. avatar
    Bonsall Obot June 6, 2014 at 10:15 am #

    Bring skeptical is wise, particularly because of unnamed sources, secret evidence and the extraordinary payout.

    That said, I’d bet money on Lemons being right. He and the PNT aren’t likely to go off half-cocked when it comes to Shurf Joke.

  3. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 6, 2014 at 10:37 am #

    Bonsall Obot:
    Bring skeptical is wise, particularly because of unnamed sources, secret evidence and the extraordinary payout.

    That said, I’d bet money on Lemons being right. He and the PNT aren’t likely to go off half-cocked when it comes to Shurf Joke.

    I agree…..on all counts.

  4. avatar
    bgansel9 June 6, 2014 at 10:49 am #

    Phoenix New Times has an entire section on Joe Arpaio and they have yet to retract any of it. If they were unreliable, they would have been sued and lost long ago. That hasn’t happened. – http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/arpaio/

  5. avatar
    DSM June 6, 2014 at 11:27 am #

    I have been more guilty than most in posting unsupported speculation. But there is one thing that for me rings true. When Zullow first confirmed that the Posse’s new evidence was universe shattering I was absolutely convinced that he would not have made this extreme representation unless he absolutely believed he had something which far transcended the bullshit from Corsi, Vogt, Taitz and the remaining occupants of the clown car.

    Montgomery is the first professional to arrive on the scene that in my opinion is capable of inspiring this type of certainty.

    So for me the crucial factor is my evaluation of Zullow’s psychology. No doubt I’m in the minority, but when Zullow issued this proclamation I viewed it as being substantively different from his past posturing. I expected at the time he had an informant just didn’t realize the perverse eminence of his chosen Messiah.

  6. avatar
    Lupin June 6, 2014 at 11:33 am #

    I don’t know if at this time we can prove beyond reasonable doubt that Arpaio/Zullo and Montgomery are indeed connected, but if we look at Montgomery only, the PLAYBOY article exposing him was extremely well researched & sourced,

    As someone pointed out in the other thread, it ends in a prescient fashion: asking who Montgomery’s next victim will be?

    If you can establish the Maricopa/Montgomery connection, then everything else unravels pretty much as you’ve said. IMHO.

    Vogt provides a tempting connection between the two, but aren’t certain. Yet.

  7. avatar
    Lupin June 6, 2014 at 11:46 am #

    I found the reason why French Intelligence got onto Montgomery’s case. It was because his scam led to flights from France being cancelled.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/23/dennis-montgomery-cia-al-jazeera

  8. avatar
    AGROD June 6, 2014 at 11:48 am #

    How would that Universe Shattering information satisfy rabid birthers – this has nothing to do with Obama (other than loosely to Holder) and certainly would cause more direct issues for DOJ than the President? He aint going to be impeached for that…

  9. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 6, 2014 at 11:51 am #

    Lupin:
    I don’t know if at this time we can prove beyond reasonable doubt that Arpaio/Zullo and Montgomery are indeed connected, but if we look at Montgomery only, the PLAYBOY article exposing him was extremely well researched & sourced,

    As someone pointed out in the other thread, it ends in a prescient fashion: asking who Montgomery’s next victim will be?

    If you can establish the Maricopa/Montgomery connection, then everything else unravels pretty much as you’ve said. IMHO.

    Vogt provides a tempting connection between the two, but aren’t certain. Yet.

    The first stop for these clowns will be the court of public opinion where the standard of proof is a little for flexible.

    Whether they ever end up in a real court of law – criminal or civil – may be pointless if they are shamed badly enough in public.

  10. avatar
    GLaB June 6, 2014 at 11:57 am #

    AGROD:
    How would that Universe Shattering information satisfy rabid birthers – this has nothing to do with Obama (other than loosely to Holder) and certainly would cause more direct issues for DOJ than the President?He aint going to be impeached for that…

    Holder would be the one who created all the fake Obama documents.

  11. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich June 6, 2014 at 12:45 pm #

    Doc C.:
    Alternate scenario No. 2:

    The New Times’ informant made it all up out of spite.

    Let’s look for a minute at what Lemons himself says about his sources.

    First, he says they are “longtime sources,” plural. Not one informant, at least two. He says:

    “My sources — one of whom is a former detective with the [SID] …”

    He makes it pretty clear that he’s talking about more than one source, and that both (or all) the sources agree on the information he’s been given.

    Lemons is no rookie himself. One reason we had him on R.C. Radio back in the day was that he was one of the few journalists ever to attend a Truther convention. He’s got a lot of experience with conspiracy theories and theorists, and he’s built a solid reputation over a number of years while reporting fairly regularly on Sheriff Joe.

    I’ve thought about possible weaknesses in the story. More importantly, I’ve thought a good deal about whether it’s possible this story is true but it’s NOT the second, “criminal” investigation — the one with the “universe-shattering” information that Zullo and Gallups have been yappin’ about all these months.

    The clincher for me is Montgomery’s known ability and record of producing hard-copy fake documents to back up his stories. When Zullo said “I’ve got the proof, proof, proof,” I immediately thought “Well, he’s got something he thinks is proof.” But I couldn’t imagine what it was.

    This story fits everything I’ve heard about Zullo’s Big Reveal:

    • criminal investigation

    • Zullo went west (from Arizona) where he found out about it

    • universe-shattering (if they could prove a crime by Snow and Holder)

    • two full-time MCSO deputies working on it

    • the need to get all their ducks in a row (working on verifying everything, which makes sense if they’re going after the judge in Joe’s racial profiling case)

    I’m sold on the story and the importance of it. I’m sold that this is what Zullo and Gallups have been promising for the past six months.

    I can’t wait for further developments!!

  12. avatar
    Bonsall Obot June 6, 2014 at 12:54 pm #

    Niiiice. I am 100% with the Birfers on this. I want Arpaio and Zullo to name names, file charges, empanel grand juries, the whole shebang. I want them to accuse Obama, Holder and Snow of everything up to and including the Lindbergh kidnapping.

    Please proceed, Birfers.

  13. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 6, 2014 at 12:56 pm #

    I think you’re right.

    So are they back to “Plan B” now.

    Comrade Fogovich: I’m sold on the story and the importance of it. I’m sold that this is what Zullo and Gallups have been promising for the past six months.

  14. avatar
    3Fiddy5 June 6, 2014 at 1:38 pm #

    “Does any part of the story require unusual complexity or implausibility?
    Has confirmation bias caused contrary evidence to be pushed aside?
    Are the sources credible?
    Is there a plausible alternative narrative?”

    Conservatives in general seem to have such a problem with evaluating information in this way… They overlook the one obvious plausible alternative narrative: That the information they believe in is, itself, wrong.

    But when one starts with conclusions, then works backward supporting them, I suppose this type of self questioning is impossible.

  15. avatar
    mitch martinson June 6, 2014 at 1:42 pm #

    Very good analysis. Just to add a couple of data points to your analysis of the Phoenix New Times, based on my longtime experience.
    –The Phoenix New Times’ reporters have been well-honored in journalism circles for many years for their investigative journalism regarding public officials. More Journalist of the Year awards than our dailies’ reporters.
    –On the flip side, the New Times has occasionally done satirical stories that have (almost) completely sucked in the public. After a couple of these, I have made the argument that these diminish the impact of the serious journalism that they do the other 99% of the time.

    An incomplete list of previous Lemons/New Times spoof stories – some under a nom de plume, some not:
    1) Michael Jackson’s Sedona “Murderess” Revealed, 7/09: http://bit.ly/1q0Cn6h
    2) Xtreme Cuisine: Arizona’s cunning culinary wizard Chef Kaz Yamamoto prepares taboo illegal moveable feasts for the elite and über-rich, 5/06: http://bit.ly/1nnNyFB
    3) Tohono O’odham With Love; Move over, Dannielynn; Anna Nicole’s Native son is alive and well on the Tohono O’odham reservation, and he may be the rightful heir to the tabloid temptress’ millions, 3/07: http://bit.ly/1rRvfOh
    4) Forever Yours; Move Over, ALCOR. Phoenix-based Preserve A Life wants to make sure the dearly departed are ready for their close-ups, 10/04: http://bit.ly/1oAo3Ak

  16. avatar
    Slartibartfast June 6, 2014 at 1:50 pm #

    The trouble with trying to reason out the behavior of birthers is that they have accepted so many different falsehoods as unquestionably true that it is impossible to know for sure which contradictions have led to a particular conclusion. While all of the speculation here seems reasonable, birther logic is not, at its core, reasonable so there is always the possibility of an unknown unknown which fits all of the evidence that Comrade Foggy laid out better that his theory does. Since our evidence is predicated on what birthers believe—something which cannot be conclusively established by logical reasoning—we should maintain a reasonable level of doubt unless and until objective evidence confirming our speculations is available.

    As such, the very existence of this article demonstrates the kind of self-criticism that is utterly alien to the entire birther movement.

  17. avatar
    DSM June 6, 2014 at 2:43 pm #

    Next question up: Does District Judge and W Bush appointee Murray Snow bell the cat and confront Arpaio about this purported investigation? And if so what means does he employ?

    Don’t know the status of the federal litigation RE racial profiling but I assume it is still pending with Judge Snow in the drivers’ seat. Assuming this to be the case I would not think it untoward for the Judge to enquire of the County as to whether he is the target of an ongoing investigation. Certainly this information is relevant if for no other reason than to permit the judge to voluntarily recuse himself.

    There are other less subtle ways for the Court to broach the issue. And federal judges with there life tenure are not generally shy about breaking a few eggs.

  18. avatar
    bob June 6, 2014 at 3:03 pm #

    DSM:
    Next question up:Does District Judge and W Bush appointee Murray Snow bell the cat and confront Arpaio about this purported investigation? And if so what means does he employ?

    I’m going to guess “no.” (Nor do I think there will be a recusal happening.)

    Sadly, despite being very interesting, I don’t think this has legs.

  19. avatar
    Slartibartfast June 6, 2014 at 3:17 pm #

    I have to agree with Bob. I think we all tend to underestimate the strength of the “It’s okay if you are a Republican” defense. While there are probably actionable issues here that could be pursued, experience suggests that this issue isn’t going to bring Arpaio down nor will it significantly harm him.

    bob: I’m going to guess “no.”(Nor do I think there will be a recusal happening.)

    Sadly, despite being very interesting, I don’t think this has legs.

  20. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 6, 2014 at 3:26 pm #

    DSM: Don’t know the status of the federal litigation RE racial profiling but I assume it is still pending with Judge Snow in the drivers’ seat.

    They made a consent deal….despite Arpaio’s efforts to screw it up. Snow is just getting the monitor on board and organized so he will be looking over Arpaio’s shoulder for a very long time.

    DSM: There are other less subtle ways for the Court to broach the issue. And federal judges with there life tenure are not generally shy about breaking a few eggs.

    Subtle doesn’t work real well with Arpaio. Snow has already had to smack him and a couple of his subordinates around for comments they made after the deal was made.

  21. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 6, 2014 at 3:32 pm #

    bob: Sadly, despite being very interesting, I don’t think this has legs.

    It all depends on whether or not the legs move.

    The supervisors and county management simply cannot ignore the charge that Arpaio has spent nearly a quarter million dollars on another one of his petty, personal vendettas.

    As far as Judge Snow is concerned I can’t imagine him letting this just slide by. How he responds is the question.

  22. avatar
    Bonsall Obot June 6, 2014 at 3:32 pm #

    I don’t think it’s enough to take down Arpaio; Maricopa County voters have demonstrated time and again that he’s their kind of crazy. As far as I’m concerned, if they want to keep electing him, then they deserve him and can keep him.

    But he’s meddling outside his scope of authority, trying to export his grift to the rest of the country. If half of what Lemons says is true, then that’s about to stop, and it’s about time.

  23. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich June 6, 2014 at 3:53 pm #

    I predict that there will never be a Zullo/Arpaio press conference now. The press would laugh in his face, for starters. Also, if he alleged that Judge Snow and Eric Holder were engaged in a conspiracy to “get” him – and remember, they said the criminal case goes directly into the White House, meaning that they probably think Holder got orders directly from President Obama to “get” Arpaio for investigating the birth certificate – then I could see an immediate federal investigation into the MCSO’s investigation.

    But for today, I predict that Gallups will ignore the New Times story completely, like the birthers have done so far. He’ll make more vague predictions about when they’re going to hold the pressers that will end a presidency, and the birthers will lap it up and be reassured that the New Times story is the bunk.

    You read it here first, unless I’m wrong. :mrgreen:

  24. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 6, 2014 at 4:45 pm #

    Comrade Fogovich: You read it here first, unless I’m wrong. :mrgreen:

    It will be interesting see (hear) what happens. Will Zullo come out of the Posse Bunker to comment? To say what……don’t pay any attention to that man in the robes over in that courtroom??

    I agree with you about a press conference. It would be too painful.

    More probable, as I’ve noted, is the county – supervisors and management – having some questions about that quarter of a million dollars. They’ll never get Arpaio to appear at a hearing but if they start pressing for answers they may get something in writing or Chief Sheridan.

    The wild card then becomes Judge Snow. Just because Arpaio and the birthers try to ignore the New Times story that doesn’t mean he will.

  25. avatar
    Reality Check June 6, 2014 at 5:21 pm #

    I alerted one of the authors of a NY Times 2011 article on Montgomery about the Phoenix New Times piece. The NYT article is excellent by the way. If you have not read it here is the link:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/20/us/politics/20data.html?scp=1&sq=Deninis%20montgomery&st=cse&_r=0

    The story on how Montgomery got access to some high officials in the Bush administration reads like a cheap spy novel. Some big names were involved, Jack Kemp and Dick Cheney to name a couple. It shakes ones confidence in the folks charged with protecting us to read that they were taken in by this huckster.

  26. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich June 6, 2014 at 5:23 pm #

    CarlOrcas: It will be interesting see (hear) what happens. Will Zullo come out of the Posse Bunker to comment? To say what……don’t pay any attention to that man in the robes over in that courtroom??

    That’s why I made my prediction. If Zullo is foolish enough to even acknowledge the New Times story, he’s acknowledging that it’s the “criminal” investigation they’ve been promising all this time, and then the birthers will read the story with real interest.

    Whereas if they pretend it doesn’t exist, then no comments by Obots at Birther Report will serve to wake any of them up. They’ll just think, “If Zullo and Gallups haven’t mentioned it, it can’t have any importance.”

    I guess Fact Free Friday is already underway, but I can’t stand listening to all the other topics Gallups talks about before he gets to the birther stuff, and Mallory has made it clear that she’s not allowed to put me on the air any more. I let Birther Report tell me if he said anything interesting.

  27. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG June 6, 2014 at 5:24 pm #

    Bonsall Obot:
    I don’t think it’s enough to take down Arpaio; Maricopa County voters have demonstrated time and again that he’s their kind of crazy. As far as I’m concerned, if they want to keep electing him, then they deserve him and can keep him.

    But he’s meddling outside his scope of authority, trying to export his grift to the rest of the country. If half of what Lemons says is true, then that’s about to stop, and it’s about time.

    Oh, he doesn’t need to be taken down. But this’ll be too huge of a public embarrassment for his reputation to survive intact, rendering him utterly useless to the birther cause. Their paper tiger’s teeth and claws have been removed.

  28. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 6, 2014 at 5:54 pm #

    Comrade Fogovich: I guess Fact Free Friday is already underway, but I can’t stand listening to all the other topics Gallups talks about before he gets to the birther stuff………….

    I can’t listen either. It makes my teeth hurt.

  29. avatar
    Bonsall Obot June 6, 2014 at 6:18 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: Oh, he doesn’t need to be taken down. But this’ll be too huge of a public embarrassment for his reputation to survive intact, rendering him utterly useless to the birther cause. Their paper tiger’s teeth and claws have been removed.

    I believe you are correct, and that’s my preferred outcome.

    Clearly he’s America’s Corruptest Sheriff, but if that’s what his constituents want, so be it. Just don’t inflict him on the rest of us.

  30. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich June 6, 2014 at 7:00 pm #

    Oh, the ignominy!

    Some rascal named “bob” from my very own Fogbow called in and raised the question, forcing Gallups to discuss the New Times story. He wasn’t going to otherwise, I swear!

    Sabotage of the poor ol’ rooster’s predictions, I calls it. Sabotage!

    Audio at eleven. Or whenever Birther Report puts up the clip.

  31. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 6, 2014 at 7:01 pm #

    Comrade Fogovich:
    Oh, the ignominy!

    Some rascal named “bob” from my very own Fogbow called in and raised the question, forcing Gallups to respond.

    Sabotage of the poor ol’ rooster’s predictions, I calls it. Sabotage!

    Audio at eleven. Or whenever Birther Report puts up the clip.

    So………………….what did he say?????

  32. avatar
    Egipcios June 6, 2014 at 7:08 pm #

    Comrade Fogovich: I predict that there will never be a Zullo/Arpaio press conference now. The press would laugh in his face, for starters.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but according to my recollection, the press was EXCLUDED from the last couple of Zullo “press conferences”. This fact did not stop them from complaining about being ignored by the media, however.

  33. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 6, 2014 at 7:13 pm #

    There are two lawsuits, one was brought by a number of Hispanic individuals represented by the ACLU. Snow is the judge in that case, and there is a consent decree. The Department of Justice, I seem to recall, made some sort of intervention.

    There is a separate case, United States of America v. Maricopa, County of et al
    Assigned to: Chief Judge Roslyn O Silver. That case is ongoing since it was filed In May of 2012 with a discovery docket entry just a couple of days ago (the docket is up to 288 entries). Discovery is ordered to be complete by 9/15/2014. The case number is 2:12-cv-00981.

    You can read more about the initial filing here:

    http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2012/May/12-crt-602.html

    and local news video here:

    http://www.kpho.com/category/227810/doj-investigates-maricopa-county-sheriff-joe-arpaios-office

    CarlOrcas: DSM: Don’t know the status of the federal litigation RE racial profiling but I assume it is still pending with Judge Snow in the drivers’ seat.

    They made a consent deal….despite Arpaio’s efforts to screw it up. Snow is just getting the monitor on board and organized so he will be looking over Arpaio’s shoulder for a very long time.

  34. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich June 6, 2014 at 7:14 pm #

    CarlOrcas: So………………….what did he say?????

    I didn’t listen. Apparently he tried to deny this was what he and Zullo have been pimping, and ended up saying the New Times supports faggotry and is free (meaning either worthless or 100% supported by advertising; I’m going with worthless).

    In other words, pay no attention to the far left Obot wackaloons.

  35. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG June 6, 2014 at 7:16 pm #

    Comrade Fogovich:
    Oh, the ignominy!

    Today’s addition to my vocabulary, courtesy of Foggy!

  36. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich June 6, 2014 at 7:21 pm #

    bob is a frequent commenter here. He prolly saw my prediction and decided to mess me up, dang his hide! :mrgreen:

  37. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 6, 2014 at 7:30 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: There are two lawsuits, one was brought by a number of Hispanic individuals represented by the ACLU. Snow is the judge in that case, and there is a consent decree. The Department of Justice, I seem to recall, made some sort of intervention.

    I forgot about that one but yes it does look like the government is involved. How it will go vis a vis the matter in Snow’s court I have no idea.

    Just another drain on the taxpayers of Maricopa County courtesy of Joe Arpaio.

  38. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 6, 2014 at 7:34 pm #

    Comrade Fogovich: Apparently he tried to deny this was what he and Zullo have been pimping, and ended up saying the New Times supports faggotry and is free (meaning either worthless or 100% supported by advertising; I’m going with worthless).

    If you’ve never seen a New Times it is chock full of advertising……probably a half inch thick. Lots of computer, audio, cars, food, dating and…..don’t’ tell anyone…..sex stuff.

  39. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich June 6, 2014 at 7:41 pm #

    GeorgetownJD posted the demographics for New Times readers over at Frogbrow, and they’re quite impressive.

  40. avatar
    Keith June 6, 2014 at 8:10 pm #

    CarlOrcas: If you’ve never seen a New Times it is chock full of advertising……probably a half inch thick. Lots of computer, audio, cars, food, dating and…..don’t’ tell anyone…..sex stuff.

    And its been that way since the late-1960’s. Market capitalism in its purest form, I reckon, and they have driven some capitalists mad over the years.

    I think that the PNT is the first title in the stable that now includes papers from all across the country. IIRC it started out as an “undergound” paper for Arizona State students, then quickly moved ‘up market’. They made a brief attempt at a Tucson New Times startup, but didn’t accomplish much more than pushing ‘The Frumious Bandersnatch’ and the ‘Druid Free Press’ into insolvency before they folded Tucson version. Then they started buying or merging papers from all over the country, from Florida to California, I think there is about 20 cities in the network now.

    This is my recollection of the sequence of events. Of course, they say that anybody who remembers the 60’s wasn’t there. So take this all with a grain of sand.

  41. avatar
    y_p_w June 6, 2014 at 8:21 pm #

    CarlOrcas: If you’ve never seen a New Times it is chock full of advertising……probably a half inch thick. Lots of computer, audio, cars, food, dating and…..don’t’ tell anyone…..sex stuff.

    Sounds like a typical alternative free weekly. And in certain areas it’s pages of medical pot providers.

  42. avatar
    Keith June 6, 2014 at 8:23 pm #

    Comrade Fogovich:
    GeorgetownJD posted the demographics for New Times readers over at Frogbrow, and they’re quite impressive.

    Got a link for that???

    I can’t find it.

  43. avatar
    Slartibartfast June 6, 2014 at 8:33 pm #

    http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=9326&p=616486#p616475

    For Rikker.

    Keith: Got a link for that???

    I can’t find it.

  44. avatar
    bob June 6, 2014 at 8:59 pm #

    CarlOrcas:
    The supervisors and county management simply cannot ignore the charge that Arpaio has spent nearly a quarter million dollars on another one of his petty, personal vendettas.

    As far as Judge Snow is concerned I can’t imagine him letting this just slide by. How he responds is the question.

    Both the board and the judge can ignore if the sources remain anonymous hearsay, and no other media outlet chimes in.

    Comrade Fogovich:
    bob is a frequent commenter here. He prolly saw my prediction and decided to mess me up, dang his hide!

    Hahaha! I didn’t see your prediction. It become obvious Gallups wasn’t going to mention it, so I decided to force it by lobbing him some softballs. And, unlike Volin, Gallups accepts callers who block their number. ;) I agree he would have otherwise let it slide, as Gallups was just eating time with his usual shtick.

    I’ll have to listen closely to the archive, but it sounded like a non-denial denial to me. Gallups wouldn’t explicitly say the article was wrong, but tried to throw a lot of sand in the air.

  45. avatar
    Keith June 6, 2014 at 9:14 pm #

    Slartibartfast:
    http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=9326&p=616486#p616475

    For Rikker.

    Thanks, Muchly.

  46. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 6, 2014 at 9:17 pm #

    bob: Both the board and the judge can ignore if the sources remain anonymous hearsay, and no other media outlet chimes in.

    Snow might be able to ignore it but the board has a duty to determine if $250,000 of taxpayer’s money was spent on this nonsense. It shouldn’t be too hard for the county manager to figure out.

  47. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 6, 2014 at 9:19 pm #

    y_p_w: Sounds like a typical alternative free weekly.And in certain areas it’s pages of medical pot providers.

    In Phoenix it is much more than that. As Foggy noted the demos are pretty good and that’s why they attract car dealers, electronics, etc.

  48. avatar
    Upgradedd June 6, 2014 at 9:20 pm #

    Comrade Fogovich,

    Despite registering on your site many months ago… “Your account has not been activated yet.” and “You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.”

    I keep thinking “any day now” …

  49. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 6, 2014 at 9:22 pm #

    Keith: And its been that way since the late-1960′s. Market capitalism in its purest form, I reckon, and they have driven some capitalists mad over the years.

    Yes….it was capitalism at its best. The two guys who founded the operation and ran it through its growth years sold out for a bundle after Arpaio had them thrown in jail in the middle of the night. They also collected a bundle from the county for that one.

    Arizona was very good to them.

  50. avatar
    Suranis June 6, 2014 at 10:56 pm #

    I just did a quick search, and unless I’ve missed a comment somewhere which is very possible, someone who hasn’t posted on BR in the last couple of days is Joe Mannix…

  51. avatar
    Conspiracy Commerce June 6, 2014 at 11:30 pm #

    “I invite readers to suggest things I overlooked, or to weigh in with their own evaluations, and other questions that need to be asked.”

    Thanks for the invite. None of this is relevant to the question of whether or not the president’s birth certificate pdf or selective service registration card is a forgery or not, and you overlook this fact on purpose.

    You can yammer on and on and on but if the president’s birth certificate pdf was legitimate he would present the paper from which it was scanned and show how it was produced.

    Dr. Conspiracy is as genuine as the president and Dr. Conspiracy is as genuine as the president’s birth certificate pdf.

  52. avatar
    Slartibartfast June 6, 2014 at 11:36 pm #

    Why? What would this accomplish? You would still believe him to be illegitimate and he would have helped legitimize the birther movement by attempting to appease you. Since your opinion has absolutely no significance whatsoever, why should he even care?

    Conspiracy Commerce: You can yammer on and on and on but if the president’s birth certificate pdf was legitimate he would present the paper from which it was scanned and show how it was produced.

  53. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 6, 2014 at 11:42 pm #

    Conspiracy Commerce: You can yammer on and on and on but if the president’s birth certificate pdf was legitimate he would present the paper from which it was scanned and show how it was produced.

    He can’t. The “paper from which it was scanned” belongs to the State of Hawaii.

    Wait…..are you talking about the vault copy of his certificate or the certified copy he secured from Hawaii and showed reporters at the White House?

  54. avatar
    Jim June 6, 2014 at 11:44 pm #

    Conspiracy Commerce:
    You can yammer on and on and on but if the president’s birth certificate pdf was legitimate he would present the paper from which it was scanned and show how it was produced.

    Ummmm, you been buried under a rock someplace? He did present the paper to the press. And no one has said the information on the paper is any different from what is on the pdf…which is why it was posted on the web.

  55. avatar
    Bonsall Obot June 7, 2014 at 12:22 am #

    Conspiracy Commerce:

    Thanks for the invite. None of this is relevant to the question of whether or not the president’s birth certificate pdf or selective service registration card is a forgery or not,

    Hold the phone.

    Are you alleging that these documents are forgeries?

    Have you notified the authorities? If you believe these extraordinary claims, surely you have proof? Have you presented this proof to the proper authorities, that they may take appropriate action?

    Or are you just a person who whines on the Internet?

  56. avatar
    Rickey June 7, 2014 at 12:34 am #

    Conspiracy Commerce:

    You can yammer on and on and on but if the president’s birth certificate pdf was legitimate he would present the paper from which it was scanned and show how it was produced.

    We know how the pdf was produced. The birth certificate was scanned on a Xerox Workstation. You really should try to get up to speed on these matters.

    Incidentally, the State of Hawaii has verified that the information on the pdf matches the information which on the original document (which is the property of the State of Hawaii).

  57. avatar
    Conspiracy Commerce June 7, 2014 at 12:50 am #

    Slartibartfast and CarlOrcas and Jim and Bonsall Obot and Rickey are just as genuine as Dr. Conspiracy and the birth certificate and the president.

    I do admire your loyalty and your willingness to sacrifice your credibility and intellectual integrity at the altar of obama.

  58. avatar
    Arthur June 7, 2014 at 1:01 am #

    Conspiracy Commerce: Slartibartfast and CarlOrcas and Jim and Bonsall Obot and Rickey are just as genuine as Dr. Conspiracy and the birth certificate and the president.

    Welcome back, Conspiracy Commerce, and thank you for your kind comments. It’s uncommon for a birther to be so generous with his praise, and I appreciate it. I hope you’ll continue to visit this site and comment frequently.

  59. avatar
    Notorial Dissent June 7, 2014 at 1:11 am #

    Memo to Conspiracy Commerce, what part of the pdf is a COPY didn’t you get? It is a copy of the original document, not the original document, and there fore, it is nothing more than a COPY, is that too difficult a concept for you, apparently it is.

    Doc, I will agree, that there are a number of possible scenarios, the problem is that none of them are really all that probably, except that the newspaper article is legitimate, is backed by real sources, and points the very guilty and highly embarrassing finger where it needs pointing. The rest of it just fails the too bloody complicated test when it comes right down to it.

    Shurf Joe is a mean spirited, foul tempered, not very bright, old line party hack who is all about getting the votes, and very little else. He has shown repeatedly how he handles people he perceives as threats or enemies, he tries to destroy them with trumped up legal charges that have a tendency to implode and blow up on him once they see the light of court. He’s proven that to the tune of $59+ million so far, so that has to be taken in to consideration. Right now his two biggest enemies are Holder who represents the Justice department that is picking on poor little him, and that mean nasty old Judge Snow who slapped his hands and publicly embarrassed him, and is making him do things he doesn’t want to. So those are two pretty good candidates for his current animosity, and what better way to get to “the nation’s toughest sheriff” than by promising him proof that his enemies were conspiring against him? Talk about an easy and ready made mark, puhlease, he has sucker written all over him for something like this, and he is too self assured and sanctimonious to think that someone/anyone would ever attempt to pull the wool over his all seeing eyes, that’s his schtick with the voters.

    And who better to sucker him in than his trusted lap dog, Zullo the Klown, aided by that great authority, on well, really nothing, Dougy Vogt who sold that great forensic detective genius, Zullo the Klown, a complete and utter bill of goods the first time around, so why not take it once step further and offer to make the boss’s dreams all come true. Now, I’m not saying that Dougy set out to defraud anyone, he’s not that bright, or that capable, but he makes a perfect shill and front man because he is so stupid and so earnest. I think Montgomery saw Vogt as a likely conduit, because I’m sure that Vogt has been telling tales of his genius and who all he’d been hob knobbing with, and Montgomery saw a perfect in and had a ready made pull to do it.

    I can’t say for sure, but that seems like a likely, if not the most likely scenario of what happened.

    As proof of those suppositions, there has been a resounding silence from both the Klown and his keeper since this broke, and I’m betting if it wasn’t nearly spot on the mark there would be screams of outrage emanating from Shurf HQ about how his integrity was being defamed, and law suits would be flying. Instead, we get stunned silence from both the fool and his master, and even Galumph isn’t getting any change from his best bud right now. Kinda sorta makes you wonder.

  60. avatar
    BillTheCat June 7, 2014 at 1:19 am #

    Conspiracy Commerce:
    Slartibartfast and CarlOrcas and Jim and Bonsall Obot and Rickey are just as genuine as Dr. Conspiracy and the birth certificate and the president.

    So, that’s your argument? Really?

    Mkay.

  61. avatar
    Bonsall Obot June 7, 2014 at 1:29 am #

    In this corner… vast majorities of the voting public and the electoral college, twice… the congress, the Supreme Court, the Constitution, hundreds of years of case law, an uninterrupted stream of hundreds of favorable court rulings… and common sense.

    In the other corner… a whiner on the Internet.

    Place your bets.

  62. avatar
    roadburner June 7, 2014 at 4:01 am #

    Conspiracy Commerce: “You can yammer on and on and on but if the president’s birth certificate pdf was legitimate he would present the paper from which it was scanned and show how it was produced.

    the content of the WH PDF has been verified 3 times by the hawaii state registrars office – that is to say the image shown on the white house website.

    the hard copy from which it was taken was presented to the press in 2012 and physically felt there and photographed.

    if you had even a modicum of intelligence or had looked at the matter in an objective and rational way, you would know that your president cannot order the release of the archive copy, nor allow access to thearchives to see it due to hawaii state law.

    and as no accredited forensic document analyst has ever examined the LFBC hard copy made for your president (signed, sealed and witnessed, and prima facie evidence of FACT in any court in the united states as per the full faith and credit clause of the united states constitution) and declared it fake or fraudulent, your dreams of storming the archives with a court order will remain exactly that – just dreams.

    sorry skippy, you lose, just like you and your bretherin have consistantly done since 2008

  63. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich June 7, 2014 at 5:14 am #

    Upgradedd:
    Comrade Fogovich,

    Despite registering on your site many months ago… “Your account has not been activated yet.” and “You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.”

    I keep thinking “any day now” …

    It also says — on every single page on the forum — that if you want your account to be activated, you have to email me at foggy@thefogbow.com. I was getting almost 6 spam registrations per minute. Hundreds and hundreds of them. I had to make registration “admin approval only”. Shoot me an email and I’ll activate your account.

  64. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich June 7, 2014 at 5:24 am #

    Whatever bob got Gallups to say on Fact Free Friday must have been awful bad for the birthers.

    As the show was in progress, Birther Report’s admin came on briefly to say that he would post any relevant parts on his site last night. He got a nice “attaboy” from delusional birfoon Cassandra Hocutt. But … nothing yet. Apparently Lyin’ Carl said nothing relevant at all. :D

    Birther Report is following my advice, of course. :mrgreen:

    Since Lyin’ Carl DID mention the New Times piece and since he must have done a spectacularly ineffective job of trying to deny/debunk it, Birther Report — and all the morons who post there — have studiously pretended that it never happened.

    Did you know that if you stick your head deep enough in the sand, nothing bad can ever happen to you?

  65. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 7, 2014 at 7:17 am #

    Blog and forum registration spam are a big problem. I had to implement a question barrier here to deal with them here. Between registration spam, email spam, comment spam and Rachel from Cardholder services, modern technology has proved not always a blessing.

    Comrade Fogovich: It also says — on every single page on the forum — that if you want your account to be activated, you have to email me at foggy@thefogbow.com. I was getting almost 6 spam registrations per minute. Hundreds and hundreds of them. I had to make registration “admin approval only”. Shoot me an email and I’ll activate your account.

  66. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 7, 2014 at 7:29 am #

    Conspiracy Commerce:

    Said:

    I do admire your loyalty and your willingness to sacrifice your credibility and intellectual integrity at the altar of obama.

    Well, he would, wouldn’t he?

  67. avatar
    Paper June 7, 2014 at 7:37 am #

    I would have to agree. They all are that genuine. High praise!

    The president’s birth certificate meets quite a high standard of genuineness, but don’t worry, you’re not overstating your case. At least here in this forum, they all are indeed quite genuine, just like the birth certificate.

    Conspiracy Commerce:
    Slartibartfast and CarlOrcas and Jim and Bonsall Obot and Rickey are just as genuine as Dr. Conspiracy and the birth certificate and the president.

  68. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 7, 2014 at 7:39 am #

    Your ignorance of the facts is stunning. I don’t expect the average person to know much about the President’s birth certificate, but I expect more from people who make written statements about it on the Internet.

    Fact 1; In a press briefing before the President addressed the country, Obama’s attorney presented the actual birth certificate to the press (and hence to the American people represented by them). They felt it and at least two took cell phone pictures of it and Tweeted the pictures.

    Savannah Guthrie spoke about this on national news.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nightly-news/42789377#42789377

    So, contrary to your spurious comment, the people have been shown the document.

    You complain that there is no explanation of how it was made. This too, is nonsense.

    Fact 2: President Obama’s attorney passed out to the press correspondence from the Hawaii Department of health on the making of the document they presented, and that information resides today at the Department of Health’s web site.

    http://health.hawaii.gov/vitalrecords/faq-obama/

    All of this material is available and linked here, so you have no excuse for your ignorance. You could be swinging on a star, but you have chosen to be a pig and wallow in the mud and feces of the birther movement.

    Conspiracy Commerce: You can yammer on and on and on but if the president’s birth certificate pdf was legitimate he would present the paper from which it was scanned and show how it was produced.

  69. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 7, 2014 at 7:48 am #

    His last comment was a week ago:

    http://www.birtherreport.com/2014/05/must-see-tv-story-behind-story-demand.html#IDComment835779962

    What was released on April 27, 2011 was a 100% forgery with the intent to deceive the American public. The Hawaii birth index and newspaper birth announcements have zero credibility. They never specifically state where the baby was born.

    Suranis: I just did a quick search, and unless I’ve missed a comment somewhere which is very possible, someone who hasn’t posted on BR in the last couple of days is Joe Mannix…

  70. avatar
    Suranis June 7, 2014 at 7:59 am #

    As Birthers said constantly prior to April 2011, “Obama could end this tomorrow by simply releasing a certified copy of his long form birth certificate”

    Did you know that if Obama had his records sent to every town and village in your country, and assuming a generous 12 hour stay in each town to allow the masses to look at them and A star trek transporter to move it instantly to the next town, it would take 54 years and 6 months for all of America to be shown the records. I worked it out once and every birther pretended I hadn’t said it

    Not to mention you would declare them a forgery anyway. You’ve done it twice. After Obama has done what no other president has done; release 2 different copies of his birth records, AND had 3 different Heads of the DOH verify them (not just Fuddy, the other 2 are alive and well) AND had 2 different Governers of his home state (from both parties) confirm that they had ordered his records to be verified.

    All that’s left is Jesus Christ himself to return temporarily and personally tattoo a copy of Obama’s BC onto your ass while telling you that Obama was born in Hawaii and is eligible.

    At which point you would probably say that Jesus was a forgery.

    Conspiracy Commerce: You can yammer on and on and on but if the president’s birth certificate pdf was legitimate he would present the paper from which it was scanned and show how it was produced.

  71. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 7, 2014 at 8:45 am #

    Suranis: All that’s left is Jesus Christ himself to return temporarily and personally tattoo a copy of Obama’s BC onto your ass while telling you that Obama was born in Hawaii and is eligible.

    Would that be the short form or the long form?

  72. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 7, 2014 at 9:03 am #

    “…even if someone arises from the dead they won’t be persuaded.”

    — Jesus
    — Luke 16:31b

    Suranis: All that’s left is Jesus Christ himself to return temporarily and personally tattoo a copy of Obama’s BC onto your ass while telling you that Obama was born in Hawaii and is eligible.

  73. avatar
    Paper June 7, 2014 at 9:19 am #

    It is true. We haven’t really focused on how the paper itself was produced. Dr. C has discussed security paper, but, as you suggest, have we really got to the bottom of how the paper itself was produced?

    Even I, eponymously named as I am, haven’t really pursued it. We can probably rule out hand-made paper at an arts and crafts fair. But given the extensive lengths the imaginary forger(s) have gone in customizing their layers, and handwritten codes and parental background, who is to say they didn’t “forge” the paper, too?

    Everyone talks about the PDF. Just one more of the consequences of becoming a “paperless” society, I guess. Xerox this, xerox that, when we should be talking about Fourdrinier machines (paper-making machines)!

    It’s good of you to point out such a relevant, new consideration at this late date.

    Conspiracy Commerce:

    …if the president’s birth certificate pdf was legitimate he would present the paper from which it was scanned and show how it was produced.

  74. avatar
    Majority Will June 7, 2014 at 9:34 am #

    Paper:
    It is true.We haven’t really focused on how the paper itself was produced.Dr. C has discussed security paper, but, as you suggest, have we really got to the bottom of how the paper itself was produced?

    Even I, eponymously named as I am, haven’t really pursued it.We can probably rule out hand-made paper at an arts and crafts fair. But given the extensive lengths the imaginary forger(s) have gone in customizing their layers, and handwritten codes and parental background, who is to say they didn’t “forge” the paper, too?

    Everyone talks about the PDF.Just one more of the consequences of becoming a “paperless” society, I guess.Xerox this, xerox that, when we should be talking about Fourdrinier machines (paper-making machines)!

    It’s good of you to point out such a relevant, new consideration at this late date.

    Shouldn’t we start with the origin of the paper and a search for relevant tree farms?

  75. avatar
    Paper June 7, 2014 at 9:57 am #

    Indeed. Probably should start with DNA matching.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24426099/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/scientists-capture-tree-dna-worldwide/

    Majority Will: Shouldn’t we start with the origin of the paper and a search for relevant tree farms?

  76. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich June 7, 2014 at 10:00 am #

    This is really becoming funny, y’know. :D

    The poor birthers … Gallups did such a piss-poor job of pretending this isn’t the end of the line for him and Zullo the Clown that the guy who runs Birther Report isn’t going to post the audio. As birthers, their job now is to pretend that yesterday’s show never happened, that the Phoenix New Times story didn’t put the last hole in Arpiehole’s canoe, and that any day now he’s still going to hold two major press conferences that will end a presidency.

    But the sad truth they just can’t face is, the press would laugh in his face if he tries. The Cold Cream Posse is OVER. They’re dead in the water and sinking like the Titanic.

    The best they’ve got is what Conspiracy Commerce tried last night — pretend the second, so-called “criminal” investigation never happened, that Zullo the Clown and Gallups the snake-oil Southern cracker never brought it up in the first place, and that they still think the birth certificate is a forgery anyway so never mind. Stop talking about the second investigation! Pretend nobody ever said anything about any universe-shattering evidence! Look, a squirrel!

    The second investigation is pining for the fjords. It has gone the way of the mighty, heavy-hitter VIPs from more than a year ago, that could get a congressional investigation going for sure. It’s an ex-investigation.

    I’m getting all choked up over here. I better quit now. :mrgreen:

  77. avatar
    Majority Will June 7, 2014 at 10:04 am #

    Paper:
    Indeed.Probably should start with DNA matching.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24426099/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/scientists-capture-tree-dna-worldwide/

    And ring analysis should satisfy the birther fetish for layers.

  78. avatar
    Paper June 7, 2014 at 10:14 am #

    You really should remember to document your sources…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ35zawvdWs

    Comrade Fogovich:
    Look, a squirrel!

  79. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 7, 2014 at 10:14 am #

    Still waiting for the podcast to appear at WEBY.

    Comrade Fogovich: and Zullo the Clown that the guy who runs Birther Report isn’t going to post the audio.

  80. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 7, 2014 at 10:25 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Still waiting for the podcast to appear at WEBY.

    And if anyone at Birther Report heard it they’ve already forgotten about it.

  81. avatar
    Slartibartfast June 7, 2014 at 10:39 am #

    Wrong cite—here is the correct link:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrAIGLkSMls

    ;-)

    Paper:
    You really should remember to document your sources…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ35zawvdWs

  82. avatar
    Paper June 7, 2014 at 10:47 am #

    I stand corrected.

    Slartibartfast:
    Wrong cite—here is the correct link:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrAIGLkSMls

  83. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 7, 2014 at 11:10 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Still waiting for the podcast to appear at WEBY.

    Just visited BR (11 am EDT) and nothing new but never fear they are using their time well. One writer said he tuned out when Gallups started talking about creationism so now *FALCON* is explaining to everyone why Steven Hawking is wrong about creation but the bottom line is that it’s probably because he is “pissed at God for putting him in that wheelchair.”

    I’m speechless.

  84. avatar
    bgansel9 June 7, 2014 at 12:46 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Just another drain on the taxpayers of Maricopa County courtesy of Joe Arpaio.

    For constituents of a small government ideology, they sure don’t seem to be too concerned about how much Joe costs taxpayers. I don’t get it.

  85. avatar
    DSM June 7, 2014 at 12:53 pm #

    It’s interesting that Gallups essentially professed complete ignorance about Dennis Montgomery. I absolutely believe him. At the same time this does not diminish my belief that Zullow is very much relying on Montgomery to produce documents stamped Top Secret/ Eyes Only.

    Law enforcement dealings with confidential informants is rigorously regulated. Often there is a contract signed by the concerned parties explicitly stating terms. Most often if a judge orders disclosure of the informant in connection with pending litigation it is understood that the case will be dismissed rather than reveal the informant. Most if not all jurisdictions have specific statutes/privileges protecting the CI’s identity.

    I suspect that Zullow has at least enough law enforcement training to recognize he can’t reveal the CI to Gallups.

    Accordingly, should Maricopa officials initiate an audit regarding the funding of a CI they are most likely on a fool’s errand.

    But I don’t know what factors are at play if the funding was derived in part from some state or federal grant earmarked for RICO or similar enforcement. There could well be an authority somewhere that’s entitled to answers.

    Realistically I don’t think we’re going to see any formal disclosure of any involvement by Montgomery absent the Big Reveal by Arpaio.

    I do think we’re going to see additional leaks from the Maricopa SO. The New Times referenced one source as a “former” LEO. I think it just as likely that the leaker is a current employee who’s status has been changed to protect his/her identity.

    Let the games begin.

  86. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 7, 2014 at 12:54 pm #

    bgansel9: For constituents of a small government ideology, they sure don’t seem to be too concerned about how much Joe costs taxpayers. I don’t get it.

    No cost is too high when you’re doing God’s work.

  87. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 7, 2014 at 1:40 pm #

    DSM: Accordingly, should Maricopa officials initiate an audit regarding the funding of a CI they are most likely on a fool’s errand.

    That may be true as it regards Montgomery but it seems to me the county should have no problem investigating the $50,000 in overtime that went to one deputy and the $5,000 that went to Zullo.

    Same with the $50,000 spent on computer equipment.

  88. avatar
    Thinker June 7, 2014 at 1:56 pm #

    Mike Zullo is not a law enforcement officer. He was a police officer and then a private detective for several years in New Jersey in the 80s and 90s, but he has no law enforcement authority now. Legally, he’s just the head of a 501(c)(3) charity called the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office Cold Case Posse. Zullo cannot act as a law enforcement officer in Arizona or anywhere else. If he entered into any CI agreements, I doubt they are valid. The whole “law enforcement” aspect of the Cold Case Posse is a scam, pure and simple. I think that whatever Zullo knows, Carl Gallups knows. Gallups has the same law enforcement authority that Zullo does, which is exactly none.

    DSM: Law enforcement dealings with confidential informants is rigorously regulated. Often there is a contract signed by the concerned parties explicitly stating terms. Most often if a judge orders disclosure of the informant in connection with pending litigation it is understood that the case will be dismissed rather than reveal the informant. Most if not all jurisdictions have specific statutes/privileges protecting the CI’s identity.

    I suspect that Zullow has at least enough law enforcement training to recognize he can’t reveal the CI to Gallups.

  89. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 7, 2014 at 2:13 pm #

    Knowing that the County is getting taken by a con man is the kind of thing that motivates a whistle blower.

    DSM: I do think we’re going to see additional leaks from the Maricopa SO. The New Times referenced one source as a “former” LEO. I think it just as likely that the leaker is a current employee who’s status has been changed to protect his/her identity.

  90. avatar
    DSM June 7, 2014 at 2:33 pm #

    I’m not contending that Zullow is a sworn peace officer nor that he personally executed a contract with any confidential informants. I’m merely suggesting that he has sufficient training to know that revealing the identity of a CI to Gallups or anybody else is actionable.

    As an aside, given Arpaio’s litigious nature I’m wondering whether he intends to open a criminal investigation into any sources responsible for disclosing the involvement of Montgomery. Some jurisdictions have a bill of rights which protect law enforcement officers from certain investigative techniques, e.g. polygraph tests. Don’t know about Arizona. Hard for me to believe that Arpaio won’t do something rash and vindictive in an attempt to plug the leaks.

    The more I think about the leak to the New Times the more I suspect that the ex-LEO who allegedly spilled the beans is, in fact, a current employee. If the source was truly a former employee that would reduce the size of the pool to those known persons recently separated from the SO. And anybody passing legally privileged info to a journalist has got to expect retribution from the head Birther. Just more speculation piled on speculation.

  91. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 7, 2014 at 3:30 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Knowing that the County is getting taken by a con man is the kind of thing that motivates a whistle blower.

    It is also the sort of thing that motivates elected officials who the public may hold accountable for their money being wasted.

  92. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 7, 2014 at 3:35 pm #

    DSM: As an aside, given Arpaio’s litigious nature I’m wondering whether he intends to open a criminal investigation into any sources responsible for disclosing the involvement of Montgomery. Some jurisdictions have a bill of rights which protect law enforcement officers from certain investigative techniques, e.g. polygraph tests. Don’t know about Arizona. Hard for me to believe that Arpaio won’t do something rash and vindictive in an attempt to plug the leaks.

    He already tried that with the help of a couple of subsequently disbarred prosecutors.

    Among those he threw in jail were the former owners of the New Times.

    The current county attorney isn’t the sharpest guy but he’s not going to that rodeo with the sheriff.

  93. avatar
    bgansel9 June 7, 2014 at 4:21 pm #

    CarlOrcas: He already tried that with the help of a couple of subsequently disbarred prosecutors.

    DSM Is new to all of this, apparently.

    Here DSM, let me help you out:

    http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2012/04/andrew_thomas_and_lisa_aubucho_3.php

    This is the reason why Mary Rose Wilcox was recently awarded $975k (and Stapley along with others have already recieved a few million also) – http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/politics/2014/06/02/wilcox-arpaio-payout-lawsuit-abrk/9884143/

    More on the New Times angle: http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2013/12/joe_arpaio_loses_new_times_co-.php

  94. avatar
    MattR June 7, 2014 at 5:20 pm #

    bgansel9: DSM Is new to all of this, apparently.

    I actually think DSM is quite familiar with all of that but doesn’t believe that Arapaio and company have learned their lesson (or that they care too much about previous court rulings against them). I don’t think that is an unreasonable conclusion.

  95. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 7, 2014 at 5:26 pm #

    MattR: I actually think DSM is quite familiar with all of that but doesn’t believe that Arapaio and company have learned their lesson (or that they care too much about previous court rulings against them).I don’t think that is an unreasonable conclusion.

    I agree that Arpaio probably hasn’t learned his lesson but today, after all that has happened in the past, I seriously doubt he will find a prosecutor to carry his water this time.

  96. avatar
    MattR June 7, 2014 at 5:32 pm #

    CarlOrcas: I agree that Arpaio probably hasn’t learned his lesson but today, after all that has happened in the past, I seriously doubt he will find a prosecutor to carry his water this time.

    I agree with you. But that still doesn’t rule out Arpaio opening up an investigation. He strike me as the type who will continue to try to inconvenience and initimidate people even after he knows there are no longer any teeth behind his threats.

  97. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 7, 2014 at 5:43 pm #

    MattR: I agree with you.But that still doesn’t rule out Arpaio opening up an investigation.He strike me as the type who will continue to try to inconvenience and initimidate people even after he knows there are no longer any teeth behind his threats.

    Yes, he’s crazy.

    If he keeps pushing things he’s liable to find himself held personally responsible for the stuff he’s pulling.

  98. avatar
    DSM June 7, 2014 at 6:44 pm #

    I’m not expecting Arpaio to necessarily enlist the aid of the District Attorneys’ Office regarding any criminal investigation into leaks. He has inherent powers not dependent on the DA. For example, I assume he can obtain search warrants through the court without intervention by the DA.

    I’m well familiar with Arpaio’s prior actions against County officials and private citizens. That is why I fully expect that he will initiate a criminal investigation over the leaks.

  99. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 7, 2014 at 7:26 pm #

    DSM:
    I’m not expecting Arpaio to necessarily enlist the aid of the District Attorneys’ Office regarding any criminal investigation into leaks. He has inherent powers not dependent on the DA. For example, I assume he can obtain search warrants through the court without intervention by the DA.

    I’m well familiar with Arpaio’s prior actions against County officials and private citizens. That is why I fully expect that he will initiate a criminal investigation over the leaks.

    Couple things:

    No District Attorneys in Arizona. They are called County Attorneys.

    And, yes, a peace officer can secure a search warrant without the assistance or approval of a prosecutor in Arizona. The smart ones don’t.

    I’d love to be in there when the deputies try to explain to a Justice of the Peace or Superior Court judge why they want him/her to sign a search warrant so they can search…….well, search what: A Federal judge’s chambers and offices, the computer files that belong to the U.S. government, maybe his home and personal property?

    Then you’ve got the problem of explaining to the U.S. Marshals who guard the U.S. Courthouses what you’re up to. A couple of the older buildings used to be Federal enclaves but I don’t think they are any longer.

    And then how to get at Attorney General Holder? Mail him the search warrant with a return, stamped envelope?

    Assume they get their hands on something…..what’s next? They can arrest on information or probable cause (like they did in several of the previously ill advised and ill fated cases) but if the County Attorney isn’t willing to sign off or take it to a grand jury they’re left with nothing. 72 hours is the limit there, I believe.

    Unless they find pictures of Judge Snow and Holder throwing darts at a picture of Arpaio I can’t imagine what they’re going to find beyond routine communications. More to the point what state law could be involved? Thinking Joe Arpaio is a jerk is still not against the law in Arizona.

    All that said……how would you see them handling it?

  100. avatar
    DSM June 7, 2014 at 11:11 pm #

    CarlOrcas

    On the issue of search warrants I was referring to a potential investigation of the leaker(s) to the New Times.

    With regard to Murray and Snow I assume Montgomery can fabricate government documents without recourse to subpoenas, grand juries, etc.

  101. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 7, 2014 at 11:49 pm #

    DSM: On the issue of search warrants I was referring to a potential investigation of the leaker(s) to the New Times.

    What crime did the leaker(s) commit?

    DSM: With regard to Murray and Snow I assume Montgomery can fabricate government documents without recourse to subpoenas, grand juries, etc

    What “government documents”? To what end?

  102. avatar
    Rickey June 7, 2014 at 11:54 pm #

    Conspiracy Commerce:
    Slartibartfast and CarlOrcas and Jim and Bonsall Obot and Rickey are just as genuine as Dr. Conspiracy and the birth certificate and the president.

    Thanks for the vote of confidence.. And to think that you don’t even know me!

  103. avatar
    RanTalbott June 8, 2014 at 12:52 am #

    CarlOrcas: Unless they find pictures of Judge Snow and Holder throwing darts at a picture of Arpaio I can’t imagine what they’re going to find beyond routine communications.

    Orders to Muslim Brotherhood hitmen embedded in the email headers?

    I seem to recall a certain someone snagged 20 mil selling that sort of bushwa to the feds…

    CarlOrcas: What crime did the leaker(s) commit?

    Obstruction of injustice ;-)

  104. avatar
    bgansel9 June 8, 2014 at 1:09 pm #

    RanTalbott: Obstruction of injustice

    Well, the word justice is in injustice, so yeah, I could see that! :P

  105. avatar
    bgansel9 June 8, 2014 at 1:41 pm #

    CarlOrcas: I agree that Arpaio probably hasn’t learned his lesson but today, after all that has happened in the past, I seriously doubt he will find a prosecutor to carry his water this time.

    Not one who wants to keep his job, anyway. :P

  106. avatar
    Bonsall Obot June 8, 2014 at 2:41 pm #

    CarlOrcas:

    What crime did the leaker(s) commit?

    We’re talking about Arpaio here; no actual crime needs have happened for an “investigation” to be initiated.

  107. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 8, 2014 at 3:49 pm #

    Bonsall Obot: We’re talking about Arpaio here; no actual crime needs have happened for an “investigation” to be initiated.

    Too true.

  108. avatar
    Thomas Brown June 8, 2014 at 9:39 pm #

    Conspiracy Commerce:
    Slartibartfast and CarlOrcas and Jim and Bonsall Obot and Rickey are just as genuine as Dr. Conspiracy and the birth certificate and the president.

    I do admire your loyalty and your willingness to sacrifice your credibility and intellectual integrity at the altar of obama.

    Au contraire. My credibility is perfectly good, and my intellectual integrity is exemplary: when someone on the Right side makes a good point I say so. When someone on the Left behaves badly or argues fallaciously I call them on it.

    I can assure you the Obots you mentioned are all real, as am I. I have first-hand knowledge of all but two of the folks you listed, and the others are no doubt regular folks. We are not “operatives,” and we are not paid to berate and scoff at you. That’s done pro bono. Get this through that enormous soggy melon on your shoulders: WE are defending American Values and the Constitution from YOU.

    America is exceptional, and lethal squirming toads like you are trying to cancel out many of the reason people from all over the world have yearned to come here.

    I live in Baltimore and own a woodworking business. I post with my real name. With that information you should have no trouble discovering that I am who I say I am, just like the President. And pray do call me up. I am not afraid of you. I have done nothing wrong. Furthermore, if you call I would he happy to explain to you why you are a traitor to this great Nation and an all-around pathetic lame-brained douche-nozzle.

  109. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 8, 2014 at 9:59 pm #

    I think America is exceptional, and the luddites (birthers and other RWNJ’s) are attacking what is exceptional in America:

    1) Higher education
    2) The rule of law
    3) The ability to integrate immigrants

    Clearly what the birthers envision is a third-world military dictatorship, with them in charge.

    There is little difference between fundamentalist demanding that creationism be taught in school, and Joseph Stalin requiring that Lysenkoism be taught.

    Thomas Brown: America is exceptional, and lethal squirming toads like you are trying to cancel out many of the reason people from all over the world have yearned to come here.

  110. avatar
    Rickey June 8, 2014 at 10:02 pm #

    Bonsall Obot: We’re talking about Arpaio here; no actual crime needs have happened for an “investigation” to be initiated.

    It’s difficult to see how a crime could have been committed. On the other hand, if the unnamed source is a current member of the Sheriff’s office, he or she may have violated confidentiality rules and could conceivably face disciplinary action.

  111. avatar
    RanTalbott June 8, 2014 at 10:44 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Clearly what the birthers envision is a third-world military dictatorship, with them in charge.

    I think what they _want_ (with some militarist exceptions) is more along the lines of the 1950s, with WASPs dominant and able to squelch unorthodoxy and “uppity-ness” without real repercussions.

    I think you’re right about what they’d _get_ if they succeeded. But i don’t believe they will. We have many fine (and a few not-so-fine), genuine warriors in our military, who live to do battle, and chafe in their barracks. But I believe the vast majority of those in uniform are relatively-ordinary people who dream of the day when they can enjoy the kind of relatively-free, quiet life they’re sacrificing now to protect for us. If someone tried to turn them into the SS, they’d rebel.

    Dr. Conspiracy: There is little difference between fundamentalist demanding that creationism be taught in school, and Joseph Stalin requiring that Lysenkoism be taught.

    Except for the part about being sent to Siberia, or simply shot, if you balk at going along. That’s a “little” difference in the overall picture, but a fairly important one if you’re a science teacher ;-)

  112. avatar
    Keith June 9, 2014 at 1:06 am #

    RanTalbott: I think what they _want_ (with some militarist exceptions) is more along the lines of the 1950s, with WASPs dominant and able to squelch unorthodoxy and “uppity-ness” without real repercussions.

    Yes,especially the uppity-ness. I lurves me some uppity-ness.

  113. avatar
    Lupin June 9, 2014 at 2:16 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I think America is exceptional, and the luddites (birthers and other RWNJ’s) are attacking what is exceptional in America:

    1) Higher education
    2) The rule of law
    3) The ability to integrate immigrants

    I’m not so sure that (a) America is that exceptional (all countries have their peculiarities) and (b) the examples you give are compelling.

    France has had higher education since the 12th century.

    We all in theory are subject to the Rule of Law yada yadda but at this point in time, the US does seem to be a little ahead in the old “one law for the rich, one law for the rest of us” race. (Frankly, jaded as I am, I’m always stunned to see French ministers dragged before a judge, but it has been happening here; not so much in your country.)

    All our societies have been willy nilly integrating immigrants for at least 2 centuries and we haven’t disintegrated. Alexandre Dumas’ father, a native from Haiti, made it to the position of General in Napoleon’s army. Yes, anecdotes are not statistics, but despite the xenophobia inherent in most human societies, I don’t think we’ve done that badly in that area either.

    The gun issue is peculiar to America, and I could think of a few areas where France is a bit peculiar too, but I don’t think it warrants the term “exceptionalism”.

  114. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 9, 2014 at 7:46 am #

    Teaching evolution was once illegal in parts of the United States. Scopes lost his case and was fined $100 (overturned on a technicality). A $100 fine is not imprisonment in Siberia, but still…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopes_Trial

    RanTalbott: Except for the part about being sent to Siberia, or simply shot, if you balk at going along. That’s a “little” difference in the overall picture, but a fairly important one if you’re a science teacher

  115. avatar
    The European June 9, 2014 at 9:35 am #

    Lupin: I’m not so sure that (a) America is that exceptional (all countries have their peculiarities) and (b) the examples you give are compelling.

    France has had higher education since the 12th century.

    We all in theory are subject to the Rule of Law yada yadda but at this point in time, the US does seem to be a little ahead in the old “one law for the rich, one law for the rest of us” race. (Frankly, jaded as I am, I’m always stunned to see French ministers dragged before a judge, but it has been happening here; not so much in your country.)

    All our societies have been willy nilly integrating immigrants for at least 2 centuries and we haven’t disintegrated. Alexandre Dumas’ father, a native from Haiti, made it to the position of General in Napoleon’s army. Yes, anecdotes are not statistics, but despite the xenophobia inherent in most human societies, I don’t think we’ve done that badly in that area either.

    The gun issue is peculiar to America, and I could think of a few areas where France is a bit peculiar too, but I don’t think it warrants the term “exceptionalism”.

    The USA were exceptional some 238 years ago. Goethe exclaimed “Amerika, Du hast es besser !” (America, you are better off).

    Today the USA suffers from her unability to align her constitution with the 21 century.

    She suffers from unequality which is far bigger than in comparable countries.

    She suffers from a system which allows the medical profession to rob the ill.

    She suffers from a system which elects public servants and part of the judiciary.

    She suffers from a “justice” which puts an incredible big part of the population in jail.

    She suffers from schools and universities with armed guardians.

    She suffers from a trigger-happy police

    And she suffers from gun-crazyness.

    So she may be still exceptional – but now to the wrong side of the balance.

    /my excuses for this rant, but you, Doc, provoked it.
    .

  116. avatar
    bovril June 9, 2014 at 10:12 am #

    *cough*

    France

    “Les Pieds Noir”……Ecole Nationale….continuing (effectively) dirigiste economic policies

    Germany

    “Gastarbeiter”…..”church taxes”….Ossie v Wessie economic split

    *cough*

    (Didn’t add Britain as they still don’t see themselves as European , unless you’re Alex Salmond waiting and praying on a fat ole bunch of bail out money from the EU if the Scots split from the UK)

    The point being something about stones and glass houses….. 8-)

  117. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG June 9, 2014 at 10:22 am #

    The European:
    Today the USA suffers from her unability to align her constitution with the 21 century.

    On the contrary, it isn’t the Constitution that’s having a problem aligning with the 21st century, but rather the nutty Right-wing “patriots”, who can’t wrap their head around the concept that many of the things they think are “constitutional” are in fact, not.

  118. avatar
    Lupin June 9, 2014 at 10:41 am #

    Personally, I think each country (limiting ourselves to the fully developed world for the argument) has its own sets of problems and peculiarities,

    Any judgment — good or bad — depends on the yardsticks and values one uses. The UN, UNESCO, WHO, etc. publish country rankings in various areas which are useful, somewhat objective but provide only a fragmentary picture.

    It is precisely because of this that I strongly question the notion of so-called “American exceptionalism” (good or bad), at least now. As William Manchester demonstrated, the notion was far more appropriate in the past, up to and until the late 50s or early 60s. I don’t think it’s true today, but the notion persists.

  119. avatar
    Bonsall Obot June 9, 2014 at 10:49 am #

    America is exceptional in theory.

    America stopped being exceptional around fifty years ago, and for all the reasons Eisenhower warned of.

    I used to believe America could return to greatness. The last few years have convinced me that America and Americans are growing content with mere bigness, and that return to greatness has slipped away.

  120. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 9, 2014 at 11:00 am #

    Lupin: It is precisely because of this that I strongly question the notion of so-called “American exceptionalism” (good or bad), at least now. As William Manchester demonstrated, the notion was far more appropriate in the past, up to and until the late 50s or early 60s. I don’t think it’s true today, but the notion persists.

    The notion persists because the ignorant are willing to believe it and our politicians are too happy to pander to them.

    Most Americans never see the world they have so much disdain for and that’s really too bad.

    All you have to do is stand in the middle of the Coliseum in Rome, or on the Acropolis and ponder the Parthenon to have it hit you: This is exceptional…..this was created by some exceptional people!

    America is a great country. It has accomplished some incredible things. But like others before it it’s arrogance will probably be its undoing.

  121. avatar
    Lupin June 9, 2014 at 11:21 am #

    There are the remains a Roman road near where I live, in effect the paved road that skirted the coast linking Rome to Spain.

    Standing on those stones make you reflect that civilizations, like persons, do grow old, senile, and then die. A sober thought.

    For obscure data buffs, the width of the Roman “via” was built to be twice the width of an ox-pulled convoy of the type used by Roman legions. That, later, dictated the width of axles throughout Europe and, through England, in the United States as well — and thereby the width of tunnels dug out of mountains for trains to go through.

    That in turn was a factor in the design of the rocket booster used for the space shuttle. And it all started with the Romans — who admittedly haven’t done much for us lately.

  122. avatar
    Thomas Brown June 9, 2014 at 11:22 am #

    Guys, what I meant was the CONCEPTUAL BASIS for America, set up by our Founders, is exceptional. It is a structure that allowed us to avoid being destroyed by foreign enemies, civil wars, religious violence… nor for a dictator or junta to emerge and wipe out the Rule of Law and the Constitution. It is a great idea, and such a lofty one that we are still trying to live up to the words of those men.

    And of course they didn’t do it in a vacuum… they took great ideas from Enlightenment Europe and Classical Civilizations and took them to heart, formulating a concrete framework to establish goals that they knew could never be realized in their own lifetimes.

    Nor do I mean “exceptional” to imply “so great all other nations pale by comparison.” Some people mean that when they say “American Exceptionalism” but I’m not one of them.

    Do we have moral failings, individually and collectively? Has the American System wreaked havoc overseas, enabling a what one could call a Corporatist Empire? Have we sometimes backed the destroyers of freedom and human rights in the name of National Interest? Yes. Yes, we have. But our system has within it the seeds of change, the means to learn from our mistakes and seek a wiser course… if we have the guts and will to embrace them.

  123. avatar
    Lupin June 9, 2014 at 11:24 am #

    Bonsall Obot: America stopped being exceptional around fifty years ago, and for all the reasons Eisenhower warned of.

    That, too. I also think the rest of the world eventually caught up — in part, thanks to American generosity.

    Sadly, the notion of “exceptionalism” today — if it exists at all — tends to refer to negative aspects, like guns or the healthcare system.

  124. avatar
    Lupin June 9, 2014 at 11:29 am #

    I’ll be happy to be the first to submit my own negative “French exceptionalism” peculiarity:

    We’re #2 in alcohol consumption per capita:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption

    (#1 really, Luxembourg hardly counts.)

    You’re #23.

    There you are. We have booze, lots of it; you have guns, lots of them.

  125. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 9, 2014 at 11:58 am #

    Lupin: There are the remains a Roman road near where I live, in effect the paved road that skirted the coast linking Rome to Spain.

    Standing on those stones make you reflect that civilizations, like persons, do grow old, senile, and then die. A sober thought.

    My wife and I spent a fair amount of time driving around France and I was amazed, time after time, to come around the corner on a small two lane road to find the ruins of a huge church that had been built, risen to prominence and fell into disuse hundreds of years before the Brits figured out North America would be a nifty place to send its troublemakers.

  126. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 9, 2014 at 11:59 am #

    Lupin: We’re #2 in alcohol consumption per capita:

    It’s the sidewalk cafes. They make it too comfortable to sit, watch the people parade by, and drink. At least that’s been my experience.

  127. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 9, 2014 at 5:35 pm #

    I was not complete in my comment. I meant to say that America is exceptional in the areas I mentioned, not that America is exceptional in general because of those areas.

    Rick Steves’ book, Travel as a Political Act (highly recommended), gives good examples of how the American tourist can learn from the best practices in other countries. Of course all countries have higher education, but I think the US has about the best research universities in the world.

    And as others have said, the United States was founded on the best ideas from Europe.

    Lupin: I’m not so sure that (a) America is that exceptional (all countries have their peculiarities) and (b) the examples you give are compelling.