I’ve been exchanging comments with Rambo Ike at Birther Report today and he wrote something that made me think. I replied to him, and I’ll copy that here, possibly edited for clarity. Rambo Ike wrote:
There’s a continuous theme that runs through your whole archives from the time you started it to the present that is one Big Lie. In the past I’ve called it the “Obots default position for everything”. It really stands out in your site’s comment sections what your site is most known for.
Well I would like to know more about the “Obots default position for everything.”
What you said caused me to think about the themes on my site. Certainly I would take the default position that Barack Obama was born where he says he was, and where the State of Hawaii says he was, and I would put the burden of proof on someone challenging that position. And I realize that birthers reject that default position, saying that Barack Obama must prove everything to their satisfaction.
Those on my side consider the birther position hypocritical since they didn’t make the same demands of other historical presidential candidates, and this leads to the obvious question of why Obama was singled out. President Obama himself would say: “We all know what that’s about.”
Birthers have said to me that the reason Obama needs special vetting is because of all the issues raised about his origins, but I don’t buy that because there was no justification for the issues in the first place. Remember, back when the “Obama’s mother went to Africa but was too pregnant to be allowed home, so he was born in Africa and his mother registered him when she returned” first surfaced back at the Free Republic, there was no reason, no evidence, no argument made that the story was true. It was just a rumor, pure and simple. This was before the short form; this was before the grandmother tape; this was before everything. People still believed it, believed it because it resonated with something inside them, something I don’t find very nice.
So if I have identified my “default position” correctly, then I believe it is the most reasonable default position. As someone has said, “extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.” I’d settle for mere require ordinary proof, but the birthers haven’t come up with any.
What my blog has done primarily over the past 6 years is to demonstrate as rigorously as I can, that birther evidence is false and their arguments are fallacious. I think I and the other birther-debunkers have a 100% success record, and I think that says something important because if the birther stories were true, you would think that after almost 7 years, some real evidence would have surfaced, and it hasn’t.
What birthers can’t seem to come to grips with is the notion that the burden of proof falls on those making the accusation. Obama has no responsibility to prove anything to anyone. There is no law anywhere in the country that requires a Presidential candidate to prove he’s a natural born citizen. It’s the birther’s burden to prove that he is not.
And the reality is birthers already know that they haven’t met their burden. That’s why they are holding our for A/Z day. Afterall, if they believe they have already provided proof, they wouldn’t need any more. Instead they persist and sustain themselves on an endless treadmill of wishful thinking. Somewhere out there is that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Dr. C, You haven’t proven to my satisfaction that this is a blog
I would see your “default position” being related to real law, the real Constitution and actual reality as opposed to Bimbo’s which is focused on FUD, lies and unreality.
My default positions are that
All birthers are bigots
Most birthers are racist
A majority of birthers are delusional
Every birther is ineffectual
Almost no birther has a sense of humor
No birther understands the world is laughing AT them not WITH them
Based on the above, my default ACTIONS are
Mock mercilessly
Poke with facts
Prod with reality
Be banned from Birther sites regularly
Ensure that the hypocrisy of birthers is highlighted
Document their excesses
Support my fellow Obot’s
Generally be a monstrous pain in the dank and damp orifice from which all birther “facts” emerge
Oh and work at least sporadically at the job that pays the bills at DARPA/NSA/GCHQ/DGSE/RWNJ Shibboleth of choice….. 😎
I believe that there is another ‘default position’ for the blog, corresponding to the other main birther approach – the two citizen parent ‘rule’ angle. That ‘default position’ is of course that the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, says what it says, and there is no ‘secret decoder ring’ required to interpret it.
This crossed my mind earlier today and I was going to get around to posting it somewhere else, but I think here is the right spot now.
Remember the poster(s) who put forth the proposition that the Founding Patriot Generation so hated the British and the British system that they had just fought a war over that they rejected everything British for the Constitution and used Vattel for their inspiration? Common law? Pshaw!. It always struck me as a ludicrous, of course, but today I was thinking that maybe there was something to it.
That must be why America insists so strongly that everyone must use the Metric systems of weights and measures instead of the British Imperial system. The Patriot Generation hated the British and loved the French that when France adopted Metric in 1795 (less than six years after the Constitution went into effect!) the US adopted it too.
So what if I want to use feet, inches, bushels, and pounds? What’s it to you? Why should the Guvvamint stick its nose in to stop me? How I measure in my own backyard is nobody else’s business.
You must be one of those commie, Muslim, gay ursurpers I’ve been hearing about over at Birther Report.
Whereas the “default position” for birthers is the fetal one.
“I think that says something important because if the birther stories were true, you would think that after almost 7 years, some real evidence would have surfaced, and it hasn’t.”
Birthers have complained that in the past 7 years no court has ever allowed DISCOVERY and all cases has been summarily dismissed. Assuming discovery was granted, who knows where and what birthers could get access to. They also said that assuming a Grand Jury would have juristication or Congress could hold a hearing, these entities could virtually ask for ANYTHING related to Obama and he or another party would have to turn it over. Most notably, Birthers want to get inside the Hawaii DOH Vault and Obama’s College Records as they are probably the 2 biggest places where Obama’s proof of foreign birth lies.
Dumbo Ike is still at it? I’ll bet you’re still debunking the same BS from him as 4 years ago.
Doc, it’s a pity that Rambo Ike didn’t complete his comment, I would have liked to know what he thought your “Obots default position for everything” was. Just once I’d like a complete thought and statement.
Bovril, birfer with a sense of humor?????? Are you sure????
So where are the places that Birthers would most likely want to get into regarding Obama:
#1 – Hawaii DOH Vault – Birthers want to see what Hawaii claims to have on Obama’s birth in Hawaii. Due to contraversal nature, the word of a public official is simply not good enough.
#2 – Obama’s College Records – From Occidental to Columbia to Havard. What was Obama’s Place of birth on those records? Who funded his education?
#3 – Obama’s Passport records – What passport did Obama use to travel to Pakistan in 1980?
#4 – Kapoloni Hospital Records – What hospital records exist for Obama?
#5 – Virginia Sundahara Birth Certificate – What is her birth certificate #. Is it the same as Obamass?
So, John
#1….How about the Full Faith and Credit of the Constitution, kinda tops your request, not to mention there is no “contraversal” (sic) nature, more information on the Presidents BC has been provide than ANY OTHER PUBLIC OFFICIAL EVER.
#2…Show me the same demands and records for every other president or even ANY other president then you can whine.
#3…Well since it a demonstrated and demonstrable fact that Obama is a US citizen I’d guess he used his US passport, again, show me the passports details you have asked for any other president and how far you got..?
#4…Why don’t you go and ask for any persons medical records from a hospital, doesn’t need to be Obama and see just what the answer is, nothing special are you..?
#5 Why not go and ask for it…. you have haven’t you and then compare. Since however the numbers are unique and the Hawai’i D’oh has stated on the record what Obama’s is then there is no there… there
Do try harder John
You’re assuming the birthers would get access to anything and that discovery doesn’t just entail Obama providing the certified copy of the birth certificate and be done with it. Birthers have yet to show why they should actually get discovery. “Because we want it” isn’t valid. There is no proof of a foreign birth inside the college records this started as a internet hoax you guys fell for. To date there has been no proof of a foreign student status for Obama. As for the Hawaii DOH what gives birthers the right to access it?
I do agree there is a lot of counter argument of what birthers could actually get access to. But assuming for the sake of argument, birthers could get access to the lands that birthers long for, it would most interesting to see what it is in those lands.
Why should you have a right to violate anyone’s records because you say so? And if you guys had access to the vault you would then claim the officials planted it there. Their word is good enough. It isn’t just their word it’s the full power of the state of hawaii and the full faith and credit clause of the constitution.
Why should you have access to these? There is no proof he was a foreign student. Birthers have yet to show anything outside of an internet hoax. His education was funded through student loans. Why does who funded it matter?
Why should you have access to these? There was no Pakistan travel ban in 1980 so why would he use something other than his US Passport?
Why should you have access to these? Most hospitals don’t keep records for patients outside of 7 years let alone 50+ years.
You’ve already seen it. What makes you think it would be the same as Obama’s considering she was born at at a different hospital? Her number ends in 11080
So things that birthers have no right to see that won’t prove what they want to believe.
Well unfortunately you don’t get to play that game. And if they landed it most likely the documents would not prove what the bithers hope it would prove.
Can’t help you with 1 through 4 but here is 5.
http://www.wnd.com/files/2012/09/SUNAHARA-short-form-COLB.jpg
BTW, notice the mother’s race is listed as Korean. That’s not on the Federal governments 1960/1961 list of racial classifications. The entry should read “Other non-white”.
Birthers need not be racist, though some undoubtedly are.
I think that for some, political dislike of the President, plus the fact his father was not a US citizen, plus the power of the Internet to bring conspiracy theorists together, is sufficient.
In other words, if the same President had a white French non-citizen father, I think we’d have some people demanding proof he wasn’t born in France. Maybe not as many, but some.
John, it is distressing the way birthers hold up discovery as some kind of Holy Grail. You must recognize that discovery is limited to records relevant to the court case. “I want to see it” just isn’t enough. “I can spin a fantasy in which that document is relevant” also isn’t enough. There has been no court case filed by a birther in which any of the documents you list would be considered relevant.
One case that did get to the equivalent of discovery was the court martial of Lakin. And the judge, as everyone but the birthers expected, rejected almost all of the discovery requests as irrelevant.
A Congressional investigation is another matter. I frankly don’t know if there are any limits on what Congress can subpoena — perhaps there are none. But Congress has not investigated, in spite of the House being controlled by those implacably opposed to Obama. I don’t even know of one instance of a Congressman unambiguously calling for such an investigation. Explaining this fact has led to a substantial branch of birther conspiracy theories.
To ape a quote from a somewhat irritating cartoon; John, don’t you need to be stupid somewhere else?
I would have to say my “default position” has always been the laws of the United States. So when officials of the State of Hawaii say, publish an index of birth data, that states the President was born in Hawaii, absent a compelling reason to question it, I must assume it is true. When officials of the State of Hawaii, in response to a request in a court proceeding, confirm the relevant data of the President’s birth, absent a compelling reason to question it, I must assume it is true. When public officials of the State of Hawaii, make public statements in their official capacity, confirming they have examined the President’s records, and he was born in the State of Hawaii, abscent a compelling reason to dobut it, I must assume it is true. When officials of the State of Hawaii, acting in their official capacity confirm that the document on the White House’s website matches their records, I have to assume it is true. It simply comes down to the Full Faith and Credit clause of our Constitution.
And contrary to what birthers claim, their rumours, hearsay (double, tripple, ect. hearsay even), conjecture, and wild conspiracy theories do not rise to the level of a compelling reason to doubt the official records and statements of the State of Hawaii. None of their wild rantings about layers, and pdfs would ever come before a judge, because if it came down to proving the President’s place of birth, the official paper copy would be provided to the court, and that would be the end of the story. If they whined about the paper copy, the State of Hawaii could simply provide official confirmation of the information, as it did during the election. End of case. The birther’s wet dream of marching down to Hawaii and having an army of pseudo-document examiners with no real qualifications examining the “vault original” would just never happen. There is just no legal reason for it until the birthers can provide some evidence and justification to doubt their official statements. Certainly, none of their pseudo-experts that would never survive even the most curosry of Daubert hearings have done that, neither have their unsubstantiated rumours, nor has the laughable Lucas Smith Kenyan BC.
With that said, there is a reason john, no birther case has even smelled the slightest hint of discovery. You have to have a reasonable factual basis for a case before getting to discovery. In light of the statements of the officials of the State of Hawaii, acting in their capacity of custodians of the President’s vital records, and the complete dirth of any admissable evidence presented by birthers, there is no justification for a court to waste the time, money, and efforts, of the court, and the President’s counsel.
It’s way simpler than that…birthers hold up anything that can’t have as idisputable proof of a cover-up and anything they can have (all of which proves them wrong) must be somehow compromised or forged. That’s it. john comes here and proves it all the time.
1. Hawaii DOH Birth Certificate – Dr. Fukino said she saw a birth certificate that was half-typed and half written. That’s not what Obama released, so birthers want to see it. Also, Dr. Fukino mentioned vital records (S) so there is more than one record. Birthers want to see the rest of those records including affidavits that might have been filed by the Grand Parents stating her was born in Hawaii (When he really wasn’t)
2. Obama refused Trump’s charity deal of 5 Million dollars for no rational reason therefore birthers want to see what is in them. Plus there is evidence Obama’s education was funded by the Aryers family. The American people have the right to know if their President’s education was funded by a terrorist.
3. Obama went to Pakistan in 1980. Birthers want to know if he used an Indonesian passport. Since Obama was raised in Indonesia at a very young age, there raises the possibility of this.
4. The Hospital has refused to cooperate in any way shape or form. Obots claims the Hospital has said Obama was born there but that would a violation of HIPPA so there they can’t have it both ways.
5. We have only seen Sundahara’s COLB. It’s computer generated and therefore easily manipulated. Birthers wants to see to the original.
The only thing that’s easily manipulated are the birthers john…especially you.
john,
Stop it. Just stop it. No evidence would ever be accepted by birthers. Never. The only thing they will ever accept is what supports their already preconceived guilt of Obama, which consists entirely of conjecture and suspicion without even a single shred of evidence to support it.
Don’t you dare pretend that if birthers received access to any one of the documents that you have stated they want to see, and if those records proved nothing more than Obama was a citizen of this country and his documentation was legit, that they would ever accept it.
The immediate fallback position of the birther argument is conspiracy, collusion, and forgery. Which means that it is completely and totally impossible to ever aleve the birther condition of terminal doubt in this President’s legitimacy.
birthers reject because the evidence the evidence that Obama was born is born in Kenya is truly compelling and incontraversal.
Are you referring to the hearsay of a mailman as reported by a conspiracy theorist author, Jerome Corsi on a wackjob website like World Net Daily? You are not seriously calling that evidence, are you?
First, please give us a definition for “incontraversal,” because I have no idea what that is suppose to mean.
Secondly, for our entertainment, please provide this “compelling,” evidence for Obama being born in Kenya. This should be fun.
Your assumptions about the meaning of the statements of Dr. Fukino and how they apply to the documents you have seen are irrelevant. Nor do they mean that there are any further documents in the possession of Hawaii’s records. And most importantly, the fact that birthers “want to see” something does not legally entitle them to anything, nor does it mean such things even exist.
There is are several rational reasons. (1) You don’t give nutjobs legitimacy by responding or even recognizing their nutbag demands. The President rightfully ignored him. (2) There is little reason to believe that beyond transcripts, the documents Trump demanded (applications, payment records, etc) even still exist. (3) The only evidence we have of how the President’s education was paid for was that his student loan records were hacked. If he didn’t have any student loans, there wouldn’t have been anything to hack. (4) There is no evidence the Aryers family funded his education – just another wild birther conspiracy with nothing backing it. and finally, no, the American people don’t have a “right” to know. They can ask, and have a “right” not to vote for him. That’s it.
What a bunch of nut bags “want” is really irrelevant. Furthermore, no there is no possiblity he traveled on an Indonesian passport, as there was no way he could have become an Indonesian citizen. Living there at a young age does not entitle him to a passport. Only citizenship does. Furthermore, even that is irrelevant. I have two passports, and travel on both of them depending where I go. My citizenship gained via jus sanguenis with another country has no effect on my jus soli US citizenship.
Actually, the President, in a letter celebrating the anniversary of the Hosptial, confirmed he was born there, and the hospital to that extent has also confirmed the President’s birth there. Provding any medical records would be a violation of HIPPA, which the hosptial does not, and cannot do. There is no “both ways” about it.
Again, the delusions and wants of birther are irrelevant. If you want to see an original, perhaps you should talk to someone who is legally entitled to get an original.
Obama has been president for just a couple weeks short of 6 years. The truth is if the Birther position were the default, he wouldn’t be president right now. Perhaps they should ask themselves why every plot to prove Obama a fraud has turned against them?
Evidence? What evidence? Beyond a pathetic fake tossed around by a convicted forger, birthers haven’t even attempted to prove the President was born in Kenya. They haven’t provided a shred of evidence to show the president was born anywhere but Hawaii.
Conspiracy fact summed up in one word: Cocaine.
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Had a birther case actually proceeded to Discovery, you still wouldn’t have been able to get such documents. Not because he is President, but rather because that is just not how Discovery works for any case.
Someday, John, someone may sue you, and at that time I hope you appreciate the limits of Discovery. The Plaintiff’s lawyer will not be able to use the lawsuit to simply strip you and your family of all privacy just because the Plaintiff “wants to know” every aspect of your and your family’s personal lives. Discovery is not a free-for-all for nosy busybodies, and that is a good thing for all of us.
Being a nosy busybody and rumor-monger is not an admirable quality, and it gets no play in our civil courts.
John said: “3. Obama went to Pakistan in 1980. Birthers want to know if he used an Indonesian passport. Since Obama was raised in Indonesia at a very young age, there raises the possibility of this.”
IF you really want to know, you can call the Indonesian embassy and ASK (what an idea).
Here is the telephone number: (202) 775-5200.
Call them up, ask for the press officer, and ask whether Obama ever had an Indonesian passport.
(He didn’t because he was never an Indonesian citizen. You can ask that too, and you will get the same answer.)
Now, I wonder why birthers keep asking the same stupid question when it is so easy to get the right answer?
can you point to anyone at anytime demanding proof that ralph nader wasn’t born in lebenon?
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Not everyone is for sale, John. Too bad you find that concept to be irrational.
I’d rather see Trump use his money to compensate the employees, contractors, vendors, and creditors he rips-off by using the bankruptcy courts to avoid paying his debts.
trump specifically asked for admissions records. occidental’s retention schedule is available online. admissions records are only retained for 5 years past the last date a student attended.
my guess is that trump knows this fact.
No she said the birth record was half-typed and half written. Do you know the difference between a birth certificate and a birth record? You do know there is more to your vital records than just your birth certificate? Vital records is an encompassing term which includes birth records, marriage records, health records, etc. Why should birthers have a right to all those records when they haven’t requested them from previous presidents?
There would be no affidavits since the mother was there at the birth, there was an attending physician and grandparents couldn’t file on behalf of the birth parents.
Trump was never serious. There’s no proof Trump had the 5 million. Trump also said that Obama had to prove it to his satisfaction. Trump left himself an escape so if Obama showed the education records trump could just say well he wants high school records, preschool, etc. Trump also previously claimed if only Obama showed the long form this would all be over. What happened when Obama showed the long form? Trump asked for the college records. So no trump was never serious he’ll just ask for something else.
Besides if Obama accepted the offer this would be tantamount to a bribe and quid pro quo which would be illegal.
There is no proof that the Ayers family funded his education. Also the Parents weren’t terrorists so your claim that his education was funded by terrorists is stupid.
No it actually doesn’t. He wasn’t raised in Indonesia. He visited there for 4 years. The Kennedy kids often accompanied their father who was the English ambassador does this mean that they had a United Kingdom passport?
And they’re under absolutely no obligation to cooperate with a bunch of idiots requesting something they’ve never gotten for any president. I’ve gone down to Yale New Haven and asked them if George W. Bush was born there and they refused to answer. I’ve never seen George W. Bush’s birth certificate. At least Kapiolani has backed up the claim by releasing that letter in their centennial newsletter. Tell me again what right do you think you have to see their records? Once again hospitals don’t keep patient records past 7 years so they wouldn’t even have his records.
You don’t get to see jack spit stop harassing the poor family. The only thing that has shown to be easily manipulated here is you. You fall for the dumbest stuff.
There is no evidence that Obama was born in Kenya
John, none of your theories, “Ifs”, objections, hypothetical scenarios or any of your other played out bullcrap matters. The State of Hawaii says Obama is who is claims to be. The Constitution of these United States says that Hawaii’s word is good enough for the other 49. Suck on that, and enjoy the next two years, you annoying little cockroach. Your idiotic drivel may fly with Orly Taitz, but not here.
Barack Obama has no possession or control over any of the items that John would like to see under discovery. Therefore suing Barack Obama would never release any of those items.
If birthers want to see Kapi’olani Hospital records, they have to file suit against Kapi’olani Hospital. If birthers want access to Passport Records, they need to file suit against the U.S. Department of State. Those organizations have never been sued for release.
If birthers want to see Hawaii Department of Health records, they need to make better legal arguments than they have made to date because every attempt to force release of records beyond what has been officially released to date has been denied by Hawaii state circuit courts, the Hawaii Court of Appeals, the U.S. District Court and the Hawaii Supreme Court.
Since the law in Hawaii is explicit, the Director of Health has sole discretion in what birth record is released and since the short form, abstract, computer-generated Certificate of Live Birth has been the official birth certificate of the state of Hawaii since 2001, that is all that any Director of Health will release except for the long form that was released to the President as a special favor to him given his position and “favorite son” status in Hawaii.
If birthers want to see Obama’s college records, they need to file suit against the colleges that he attended. When Orly Taitz sued Occidental College, she not only lost, she was ordered to pay Occidental’s legal expenses.
Are you suggesting that the birthers manipulated Sunahara’s birth certificate? It would have to be them, since Duncan got a copy direct from the state.
The number is, by the way, 61-0011080. Not Obama’s.
I read on Fogbow that it would have been illegal for Obama to accept the offer. It would have been a quid pro quo and grounds for impeachment.
John, the reason you can’t get to discovery is the job of figuring out if the President is eligible is up to Congress. It’s right there in the Constitution.
And not a single member of Congress, not one, has challenged the President’s eligibility when it was time to do so. Not one believed any of the drivel you are trying to sell. And some of them, like Reps. Yoho and Gohmert, do believe in drivel. They even will make Birther noises. They will even challenge the Speaker so they can make sure that whatever little influence they have ill be lessened. Some, like that fellow from Florida, will call the President a liar to his face but still do nothing regarding certifying the election results. Why is that, John? Is that because the face of the Birther movement is represented by Dr. Orly Taitz, who has won even fewer cases than Amal Clooney, and yet Dr. Taitz makes fun of Mrs. Clooney? Is it because the evidence you rely upon is typified by the Lucas Smith certificate, an easily demonstrated forgery presented by a convicted forger?
South Carolina
john is, as usual, an idiot.
A while ago, we established here that when Obama had gone to France in his student days, he had a US passport. He couldn’t have entered the country with an Indonesian passport without a visa, and it was impossible for him to get one.