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Are birthers right wing authoritarians?

I’m reading this neat book called “The Authoritarians” by Prof. Bob Altemeyer. Thanks to bgansel9 for suggesting the book. Altemeyer has developed a test for authoritarians, and he found that most of them are right-wing politically.

In the book, we find studies that correlate high RWA’s with other characteristics, and some of these seem to fit Internet birthers (birthers who comment on the Internet).

Chapter 3 of the book has a list of characteristics for these authoritarians. What follows each topic is a brief excerpt from the book in italics, selected to most closely sound like birthers.

How Authoritarian Followers Think

Illogical Thinking

Intrigued, I gave the inferences test that Mary Wegmann had used to two large samples of students at my university. In both studies high RWAs went down in flames more than others did. They particularly had trouble figuring out that an inference or deduction was wrong. To illustrate, suppose they had gotten the following syllogism:

All fish live in the sea.
Sharks live in the sea..
Therefore, sharks are fish.

The conclusion does not follow, but high RWAs would be more likely to say the reasoning is correct than most people would. If you ask them why it seems right, they would likely tell you, “Because sharks are fish.” In other words, they thought the reasoning was sound because they agreed with the last statement. If the conclusion is right, they figure, then the reasoning must have been right.

When I read that, I could not help but think of the birther reading of the Supreme Court case of Minor v. Happersett.

Highly Compartmentalized Minds

As I said earlier, authoritarians’ ideas are poorly integrated with one another. It’s as if each idea is stored in a file that can be called up and used when the authoritarian wishes, even though another of his ideas–stored in a different file– basically contradicts it. We all have some inconsistencies in our thinking, but authoritarians can stupify you with the inconsistency of their ideas.

…they don’t seem to scan for self-consistency as much as most people do.

Here I would point to the birther assertions that President Obama’s father is both Barack Obama, Sr. and Frank Marshall Davis.

Double Standards

I have found many other instances in which authoritarian followers show a double standard in their judgments of people’s behavior or the rightness of various causes.

I see this all the time, such as the demand for a double blind study to evaluate the Xerox 7655 experiments, while accepting extremely unscientific results claiming that Obama’s birth certificate is a forgery.

Hypocrisy

For example, the leaders of authoritarian movements sometimes accuse their opponents of being anti-democratic and anti-free speech when the latter protest against various books, movies, speakers, teachers and so on.

We see this in the censorship that appears widely on birther web sites.

Blindness To Themselves

… they have no idea how much they differ from others in that way. And most of the time they get it quite wrong, thinking they are not different from others, and even that they are different in the opposite way from how they actually are.

Birthers seem fairly unaware that most people who are well informed and intelligent disagree with them.

A Profound Ethnocentrism

Well, aren’t most people likely to trust someone who seems to agree with them? Probably, but people differ enormously in gullibility. Low RWAs are downright suspicious of someone who agrees with them when they can see ulterior motives might be at work. They pay attention to the circumstances in which the other fellow is operating. But authoritarians do not, when they like the message.

…the authoritarian follower makes himself vulnerable to malevolent manipulation by chucking out critical thinking and prudence 92 as the price for maintaining his beliefs. He’s an “easy mark,” custom-built to be snookered….

The birthers have a willingness to continue to believe Mike Zullo even though he is obviously stringing them along.

Dogmatism: The Authoritarian’s Last Ditch Defense

It’s easy to see why authoritarian followers would be dogmatic, isn’t it? When you haven’t figured out your beliefs, but instead absorbed them from other people, you’re really in no position to defend them from attack. Simply put, you don’t know why the things you believe are true. Somebody else decided they were, and you’re taking their word for it. So what do you do when challenged?

Well first of all you avoid challenges by sticking with your own kind as much as possible, because they’re hardly likely to ask pointed questions about your beliefs. But if you meet someone who does, you’ll probably defend your ideas as best you can, parrying thrusts with whatever answers your authorities have pre-loaded into your head. If these defenses crumble, you may go back to the trusted sources. They probably don’t have to give you a convincing refutation of the anxiety-producing argument that breached your defenses, just the assurance that you nonetheless are right. But if the arguments against you become overwhelming and persistent, you either concede the point–which may put the whole lot at risk–or you simply insist you are right and walk away, clutching your beliefs more tightly than ever.

I found debating on Birther Report that many birthers don’t have a clue what they believe, and when confronted with iron-clad evidence that they are wrong, then retreat to a more general position, like Obama is the worst president ever.

Conclusion

The Chapter 3 characteristics are not the only things I found that might link birthers to high RWA’s. One other is:

Authoritarian followers score highly on the Dangerous World scale…. High RWAs are, in general, more afraid than most people are.

I can’t say how afraid birthers are in general. Conspiracy theorists in general seem to think that the world is dangerous and that it is being manipulated by sinister forces. At least some of the denizens of Birther Report have adopted the idea that various government plots are directed at them, and their guns. Jade Helm 15 conspiracies bear that out.

What is really needed to decide the question is to administer the RWA test to a number of birthers and see how they score.

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57 Responses to Are birthers right wing authoritarians?

  1. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) May 23, 2015 at 3:32 am #

    If the conclusion is right, they figure, then the reasoning must have been right.

    Or, in the birthers’ case: If they believe the conclusion is right, they are willing to believe in any reasoning that appears to have that conclusion.
    (Obama is ineligible, therefore Vattel was right, therefore the Founders worshipped Vattel, therefore Vattel is authoritative w.r.t. the Constitution.)

  2. avatar
    Lupin May 23, 2015 at 4:27 am #

    The word “authoritarian” is probably more general and therefore a better choice than “fascist”, but I tend to equal the two.

    When I was in high school, the year before i took the baccalaureat exam (I was 18 then), in order to perfect my Spanish (second language) I spent some time in Madrid. This was in 1972, when Franco was very much alive, and had in fact ordered the garroting of some opponents not so long before. As a French tourist, I was 98% insulated from the fascist environment — not so many black shirts in night clubs for rich Frenchies — but I do remember well the general pervasive gloom that hung over the city and the presence of men in black shirts who weren’t in guardia civil uniforms but seemed to generate fear and unease as they passed. Basically, one learned to toe the line, keep one’s mouth shut, and stay out of trouble.

    In France we had just experienced the May 1968 events and were in full hippie bloom (so to speak) and that was a frightening, eye-opening experience. I’ve gone back to Spain a couple of times since then, but I was never entirely able to shake that first impression.

  3. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 23, 2015 at 9:32 am #

    I would say that authoritarians (in the sense of high scores on the RWA test) are proto fascists.

    Lupin: The word “authoritarian” is probably more general and therefore a better choice than “fascist”, but I tend to equal the two.

  4. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 23, 2015 at 9:38 am #

    It would be an an error to say:

    Right-wing authoritarians cannot recognize invalid syllogisms
    Birthers cannot recognize invalid syllogisms
    Therefore, birthers are right-wing authoritarians

    So when I think this, I know it is an error.

  5. avatar
    bgansel9 May 23, 2015 at 10:28 am #

    You’re welcome. Glad you are reading it. 🙂

  6. avatar
    bgansel9 May 23, 2015 at 11:28 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I would say that authoritarians (in the sense of high scores on the RWA test) are proto fascists.

    The Global Change Game Altemeyer developed would seem to bear that out: http://tigger.uic.edu/labs/skitka/public_html/Avoiding.pdf

  7. avatar
    Dave B. May 23, 2015 at 11:47 am #

    John Dean went into this at length in his book “Conservatives Without Conscience,” relying heavily on John Jost’s work. Here’s an interview with Jost:
    http://www.salon.com/2015/03/05/the_right_has_fked_up_minds_meet_the_researcher_who_terrifies_gop_congress/

  8. avatar
    bgansel9 May 23, 2015 at 11:57 am #

    I was in a hurry when I posted the last link (doing two things at once. It’s been years since I read the paper on the Global Change Game, and I’m having trouble finding it now so I posted something that mentions it.) The problem with the conclusions in the last link that I posted is that they mistake Right Wing Authoritarians with always being right-wing politically. They apparently didn’t read Altemeyer’s book. Altemeyer does NOT state that all RWA’s are conservative republicans, they could be far left ideologues as well, but they share certain traits that make them authoritarian and many more RWA’s are conservative than liberals.

    “The phrase right wing in right-wing authoritarianism does not necessarily refer to someone’s politics, but to psychological preferences and personality. It means that the person tends to follow the established conventions and authorities in society. In theory, the authorities could have either right-wing or left-wing political views” – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_authoritarianism (this page also links to a Global Change Game page) – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_change_game

  9. avatar
    bgansel9 May 23, 2015 at 12:01 pm #

    Here is the page I was looking for – the results of the first Global Change games: http://www.trainingourprotectors.com/uploads/5/4/1/5/5415260/when_rwa_inherit_the_earth.pdf

  10. avatar
    JPotter May 23, 2015 at 12:48 pm #

    Are they right wing?

    Yes.

    Are they authoritarians?

    Yes.

    Thanks for the reading recommendation, will check it out, too.

    Authoritarianism, in the sense of being obsessed with invoking authority in a shamanistic fashion, like any argument from any authority no matter specious will conquer all like the Ark of the Covenant, is winguts most striking feature (to me). It’s “because I say so” drug in from the playground and shabbily dressed up. That anyone expects such assertions to fly, much less anyone else actually pay attention to them, boggles me.

  11. avatar
    bgansel9 May 23, 2015 at 12:51 pm #

    Dave B.: Here’s an interview with Jost

    Fascinating article, Dave. Thanks.

  12. avatar
    bgansel9 May 23, 2015 at 1:00 pm #

    JPotter: It’s “because I say so” drug in from the playground and shabbily dressed up.

    I have often said they act more like impudent children than rational adults.

  13. avatar
    scott e May 24, 2015 at 12:29 pm #

    For example, the leaders of authoritarian movements sometimes accuse their opponents of being anti-democratic and anti-free speech when the latter protest against various books, movies, speakers, teachers and so on.

    We see this in the censorship that appears widely on birther web sites.

    ***
    hmmm…. what about the appearance of impropriety ? U R being too hard on the birthers.

  14. avatar
    bgansel9 May 24, 2015 at 2:44 pm #

    scott e: what about the appearance of impropriety ?

    What about it? Was something improper or only APPEARED to be improper to someone with limited understanding of a situation? I find that the word APPEARANCE is placed quite prominently in your question – do you think that something APPEARING to be improper is an offense that should be indicted?,Prosecuted? Is a person innocent until proven guilty or are they guilty because you see an APPEARANCE of impropriety without proof that the situation was actually improper? Scott, you may see something that you THINK is improper because you lack the ability to understand NUANCE (most authoritarian types do)…. but you seem to ADMIT that there is only the APPEARANCE of impropriety and not actual impropriety. Give examples and tell me, what do you think the effect of the cause (of the appearance of impropriety – not actually proved impropriety, just the appearance, as that is what you are asking) should be? What do you think should happen because of the appearance of impropriety?

  15. avatar
    Rickey May 25, 2015 at 10:51 am #

    scott e:

    U R being too hard on the birthers.

    It is impossible to be too hard on birthers. They deserve all of the ridicule which is heaped upon them.

  16. avatar
    Hermitian May 25, 2015 at 2:12 pm #

    Here’s a bit of logic that all Obots always buy into…

    Obama claims to have received two certified copies of his LFCOLB from Loretta Fuddy.

    Obama posted one PDF image of a purported certified copy of his LFCOLB on the White House website.

    Obama has two certified copies of his LFCOLB.

    Gotcha !!!

  17. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 25, 2015 at 3:15 pm #

    Thank you for providing an excellent example of birther errors in thinking to illustrate my article.

    The birthers always buy into incomplete versions of the facts, cast to support the conclusions they have already drawn. It is not only Obama who says he has 2 certified copies from Hawaii. The Hawaii Department of Health says so too.

    http://health.hawaii.gov/vitalrecords/faq-obama/

    Despite all my efforts, you can lead a birther to the facts, but you can’t make them think.

    Hermitian: Obama claims to have received two certified copies of his LFCOLB from Loretta Fuddy.

  18. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater May 25, 2015 at 4:33 pm #

    Hermitian:
    Here’s a bit of logic that all Obots always buy into…

    Obama claims to have received two certified copies of his LFCOLB from Loretta Fuddy.

    Obama posted one PDF image of a purported certified copy of his LFCOLB on the White House website.

    Obama has two certified copies of his LFCOLB.

    Gotcha !!!

    Oh look hermy is back after his 6 month absence on amazon

  19. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater May 25, 2015 at 4:37 pm #

    Hermitian: Obama posted one PDF image of a purported certified copy of his LFCOLB on the White House website.

    So let me get this straight, you’d have shut up if he scanned copies of both documents and posted them online? This is just as stupid as traderjack on amazon claiming that the II on Obamas birth certificate are not actually roman numerals but instead the Islamic numbering for 2 and somehow that matters. Or his claim that II doesn’t refer to Jr or some other convoluted crap

  20. avatar
    Rickey May 25, 2015 at 4:45 pm #

    Hermitian:

    Obama has two certified copies of his LFCOLB.

    Gotcha !!!

    I have two certified copies of my birth certificate. When I applied for my passport, I provided one of them.

    Apparently that is proof that the other copy is a forgery. Do I have that right?

  21. avatar
    RanTalbott May 25, 2015 at 5:19 pm #

    Hermitian: Here’s a bit of logic

    Um, no: it’s three statements of fact, with nothing else to posit or prove any relationship among them, or describing any conclusion to be drawn from them.

    If you think that’s “logic”, it might explain some of the strange things you’ve written.

  22. avatar
    John Reilly May 25, 2015 at 6:19 pm #

    Hermitian:
    Here’s a bit of logic that all Obots always buy into…

    Obama claims to have received two certified copies of his LFCOLB from Loretta Fuddy.

    Obama posted one PDF image of a purported certified copy of his LFCOLB on the White House website.

    Obama has two certified copies of his LFCOLB.

    Gotcha !!!

    The State of Hawaii confirms it gave Pres. Obama two certified copies and that the PDF of the one posted is genuine.

  23. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 25, 2015 at 6:19 pm #

    Hermitian was let out of his cage again?

  24. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund May 25, 2015 at 6:36 pm #

    Hermitian:
    Here’s a bit of logic that all Obots always buy into…

    Obama claims to have received two certified copies of his LFCOLB from Loretta Fuddy.

    Obama posted one PDF image of a purported certified copy of his LFCOLB on the White House website.

    Obama has two certified copies of his LFCOLB.

    Gotcha !!!

    Wow, 5 months of witless protection, and you break cover to post that? The Judge Wingate ruling must have really left you reeling.

  25. avatar
    hermitian May 25, 2015 at 6:38 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater May 25, 2015 at 4:37 pm (Quote) #

    Hermitian: Obama posted one PDF image of a purported certified copy of his LFCOLB on the White House website.

    So let me get this straight, you’d have shut up if he scanned copies of both documents and posted them online?

    Maybe — Maybe not. It would depend on whether or not the two scanned images are identical.

  26. avatar
    Dalekmaster May 25, 2015 at 8:50 pm #

    Hermitian:
    Here’s a bit of logic that all Obots always buy into…

    Obama claims to have received two certified copies of his LFCOLB from Loretta Fuddy.

    Obama posted one PDF image of a purported certified copy of his LFCOLB on the White House website.

    Obama has two certified copies of his LFCOLB.

    Gotcha !!!

    Hey, Hermione, any comment on Judge Wingate rejecting Dr. Orly’s ballot challenge turned RICO claim almost two months ago? You spent months, nay years, claiming he would frogmarch that uppity black dude out of the WHITE House.

  27. avatar
    JPotter May 25, 2015 at 9:27 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Oh look hermy is back after his 6 month absence on amazon

    There is probably a very sad explanation for these long absences of his. Pity the fool for continuing to waste his time in his usual manner, but hopefully being able to do so reflects some recovery on his part, rather than a relapse.

    Birfing has been driven underground on Amazon. Except on explicitly birfer-related threads, all the wingnuts dance around it, claim total ignorance and unfamiliarity … all the while responding with classic go-to birfer lines LOL

  28. avatar
    gorefan May 25, 2015 at 11:27 pm #

    Hermitian:
    Here’s a bit of logic that all Obots always buy into…

    Obama claims to have received two certified copies of his LFCOLB from Loretta Fuddy.

    Obama posted one PDF image of a purported certified copy of his LFCOLB on the White House website.

    Obama has two certified copies of his LFCOLB.

    Gotcha !!!

    What is your point?

    In his letter to Director Fuddy, President Obama requested two certified copies of his long form birth certificate. In her letter to Director Fuddy, Judith Corley said that President Obama was requesting two certified copies of his long form birth certificate. In her letter to President Obama, Director Fuddy said she received the President’s request for two certified copies of his long form birth certificate and was enclosing the two copies of his long form birth certificate. She also attested to the “authenticity of these copies”. The press statement from the Department of Health says that President Obama requested two certified copies of his long form birth certificate, that the HDOH granted his request and that Judith Corley picked up both copies on April 25th, 2011.

    So what?

  29. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 25, 2015 at 11:37 pm #

    Hermitian: Here’s a bit of logic

    Birthers shouldn’t be allowed to use words like “logic”. Of course if I had it my way, they wouldn’t be allowed unchaperoned internet access either, but that’s beside the point.

  30. avatar
    JPotter May 25, 2015 at 11:41 pm #

    gorefan: What is your point?

    In his letter to Director Fuddy, President Obama requested two certified copies of his long form birth certificate.In her letter to Director Fuddy, Judith Corley said that President Obama was requesting two certified copies of his long form birth certificate.In her letter to President Obama, Director Fuddy said she received the President’s request for two certified copies of his long form birth certificate and was enclosing the two copies of his long form birth certificate.She also attested to the “authenticity of these copies”.The press statement from the Department of Health says that President Obama requested two certified copies of his long form birth certificate, that the HDOH granted his request and that Judith Corley picked up both copies on April 25th, 2011.

    So what?

    Apparently that, for some reason, Obama should be expected to provide images of both copies, because you know, images of multiple copies would somehow be more informative.

    I can hear it now: “These copies look just alike! Obviously one is fake!”

  31. avatar
    Keith May 26, 2015 at 12:58 am #

    JPotter: These copies look just alike! Obviously one is fake!”

    Or: “obviously its the same document… What happened to the other one?

  32. avatar
    John Reilly May 26, 2015 at 1:16 am #

    If you follow the logic (if one can call it that) of the Birthers where each candidate must prove with court-admissible evidence of his or her eligibility, a candidate would need not one copy, not two copies, but 58 copies, for every jurisdiction in which delegates are selected.

  33. avatar
    gorefan May 26, 2015 at 9:46 am #

    JPotter: Apparently that, for some reason, Obama should be expected to provide images of both copies, because you know, images of multiple copies would somehow be more informative.

    I can hear it now:“These copies look just alike! Obviously one is fake!”

    I figured it would have to be something stupid like that, after all this is Hermie. I just wanted him to spell it out so we could all get a good laugh.

  34. avatar
    Reality Check May 26, 2015 at 10:11 am #

    Hermie must have tired of getting embarrassed at Amazon. I haven’t seen him in a while.

  35. avatar
    bgansel9 May 26, 2015 at 10:37 am #

    Hermitian: Obama has two certified copies of his LFCOLB.

    Hey, let’s REALLY blow your mind, Hermie. Not only does Obama have two copies of his LFBC, but BOTH of them can serve as Prima Facie evidence of the fact of birth in the state of Hawaii in a court proceeding. How can THAT be? 😛

  36. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 26, 2015 at 7:04 pm #

    And in addition to THAT, he has several more copies of his standard (short form) birth certificate that ALSO can serve as Prima Facie evidence of the fact of birth in the state of Hawaii in a court proceeding.” Woo hoo! The president is literally CRAWLING in birth certificates.

    bgansel9: Hey, let’s REALLY blow your mind, Hermie. Not only does Obama have two copies of his LFBC, but BOTH of them can serve as Prima Facie evidence of the fact of birth in the state of Hawaii in a court proceeding. How can THAT be?

  37. avatar
    JPotter May 27, 2015 at 12:56 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    And in addition to THAT, he has several more copies of his standard (short form) birth certificate that ALSO canserve as Prima Facie evidence of the fact of birth in the state of Hawaii in a court proceeding.” Woo hoo! The president is literally CRAWLING in birth certificates.

    What could possibly be more suspicious, eh?

    I just had a vision, of a special padded cell, intended to help a birfer get its mind right. The cell is papered with green basketweave … 😈

  38. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) May 27, 2015 at 3:40 am #

    hermitian: It would depend on whether or not the two scanned images are identical.

    The *images* would not be identical (as no two scans of even the same physical object on the same scanner are identical, and even the two certified copies may vary slightly) but the contents of the original certified copies are identical.

    But of course if we were shown two images, birthers would endlessly obsess over how some pixels on one copy are not on the other copy and how this proves forgery, or how both scans are identical pixel-wise and how this proves forgery.

    So after 6 years, Hermi’s endgame is “if only I get to see a scan of the *other* copy, this would all go away”? *lol* How the mighty have fallen.

  39. avatar
    JPotter May 27, 2015 at 5:24 am #

    The Magic M (not logged in): The *images* would not be identical (as no two scans of even the same physical object on the same scanner are identical, and even the two certified copies may vary slightly) but the contents of the original certified copies are identical.

    But of course if we were shown two images, birthers would endlessly obsess over how some pixels on one copy are not on the other copy and how this proves forgery, or how both scans are identical pixel-wise and how this proves forgery.

    So after 6 years, Hermi’s endgame is “if only I get to see a scan of the *other* copy, this would all go away”? *lol* How the mighty have fallen.

    Not only would the scans of “identical” copies differ, the copies themselves would differ, due to variation in the alignment of paper when printing, vagaries in application of toner during printing, and of course each copy would be stamped in differing places and at differing angles, levels of ink, and with differing patterns of pressure.

    When it comes to pleasing a birfer, it’s always damned if’n you do, damned if’n you don’t..

  40. avatar
    roadburner May 27, 2015 at 7:05 am #

    “When it comes to pleasing a birfer, it’s always damned if’n you do, damned if’n you don’t..”

    and they wonder why the president won’t `release his records’?

  41. avatar
    Hermitian May 27, 2015 at 8:35 am #

    The Magic M (not logged in) May 27, 2015 at 3:40 am (Quote) #

    hermitian: It would depend on whether or not the two scanned images are identical.

    The *images* would not be identical (as no two scans of even the same physical object on the same scanner are identical, and even the two certified copies may vary slightly) but the contents of the original certified copies are identical.

    But of course if we were shown two images, birthers would endlessly obsess over how some pixels on one copy are not on the other copy and how this proves forgery, or how both scans are identical pixel-wise and how this proves forgery.

    So after 6 years, Hermi’s endgame is “if only I get to see a scan of the *other* copy, this would all go away”? *lol* How the mighty have fallen.

    The two images better not be identical because the certifying signature and date stamps should have been applied by hand and therefore would be different in detail and position.

    But, anyhoo, Obama can’t release two different images because the forger only created one digital PDF image.

  42. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 27, 2015 at 8:43 am #

    Based on photographs of the long form taken by reporters, your suggestion proves false.

    Hermitian: But, anyhoo, Obama can’t release two different images because the forger only created one digital PDF image.

  43. avatar
    Hermitian May 27, 2015 at 8:50 am #

    JPotter May 27, 2015 at 12:56 am (Quote) #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    And in addition to THAT, he has several more copies of his standard (short form) birth certificate that ALSO canserve as Prima Facie evidence of the fact of birth in the state of Hawaii in a court proceeding.” Woo hoo! The president is literally CRAWLING in birth certificates.

    What could possibly be more suspicious, eh?

    You must be referring to the Polland forgery of the Obama COLB PDF image? That’s the one that Obama posted on the White House website. You remember, the one with the redacted BC number. So that COLB image can serve only as Prima Facie evidence of forgery. And it’s the only copy in Obama’s possession.

    Too bad! That’s another strikeout for you.

  44. avatar
    Hermitian May 27, 2015 at 9:48 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy May 27, 2015 at 8:43 am (Quote) #

    Based on photographs of the long form taken by reporters, your suggestion proves false.

    Hermitian: But, anyhoo, Obama can’t release two different images because the forger only created one digital PDF image.

    If you mean the multiple digital copies of the one paper copy in the reporter’s handout package?

  45. avatar
    Jim May 27, 2015 at 10:12 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Based on photographs of the long form taken by reporters, your suggestion proves false.

    Which goes back to another important piece missing from the investigation…why didn’t they interview EYEWITNESSES TO THE DOCUMENT?

  46. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 27, 2015 at 1:45 pm #

    You know that’s not what I mean.

    Hermitian: If you mean the multiple digital copies of the one paper copy in the reporter’s handout package?

  47. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 27, 2015 at 1:47 pm #

    If you’re really suffering from memory loss, you might want to see a medical professional. If you’re just playing the troll, go away.

    Hermitian: You must be referring to the Polland forgery of the Obama COLB PDF image? That’s the one that Obama posted on the White House website. You remember, the one with the redacted BC number. So that COLB image can serve only as Prima Facie evidence of forgery. And it’s the only copy in Obama’s possession.

  48. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 27, 2015 at 1:52 pm #

    We have both Hermitian and john posting a bunch of dumb crap, I’m starting to have flashbacks from a few years ago.

  49. avatar
    dr. kenneth noisewater May 27, 2015 at 1:54 pm #

    Hermitian: The two images better not be identical because the certifying signature and date stamps should have been applied by hand and therefore would be different in detail and position.

    But, anyhoo, Obama can’t release two different images because the forger only created one digital PDF image.

    It’s sad after all this time that’s all you have left. The information on them is the same they don’t suddenly become invalid because you don’t like it. So much for your predictions about judge wingate

  50. avatar
    bgansel9 May 27, 2015 at 4:44 pm #

    Hermitian: But, anyhoo, Obama can’t release two different images because the forger only created one digital PDF image.

    Why, if they were processed at the same time?

  51. avatar
    bgansel9 May 27, 2015 at 4:47 pm #

    Hermitian: That’s the one that Obama posted on the White House website.

    Do you realize how crazy you sound? How did someone else get a copy of the document first?

  52. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 27, 2015 at 5:35 pm #

    The allegation is that when the White House put together material for the press in 2011, that they used an image of the short form birth certificate that they got from Snopes.com, and further that the Snopes image was not one originally from the Obama Campaign, but one Ron Polland fabricated and put on the Internet. Polland admitted that he had switched images at his photo sharing sharing site, further complicating the claim.

    I never was able to see how the argument from Polland actually demonstrated what he claimed, and even if it were true, it would have no significance that I can see.

    bgansel9: Do you realize how crazy you sound? How did someone else get a copy of the document first?

  53. avatar
    bgansel9 May 27, 2015 at 6:03 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I never was able to see how the argument from Polland actually demonstrated what he claimed, and even if it were true, it would have no significance that I can see.

    Still contained the same information.

  54. avatar
    scott e May 28, 2015 at 7:11 am #

    bgansel9: What about it? Was something improper or only APPEARED to be improper to someone with limited understanding of a situation?I find that the word APPEARANCE is placed quite prominently in your question – do you think that something APPEARING to be improper is an offense that should be indicted?,Prosecuted? Is a person innocent until proven guilty or are they guilty because you see an APPEARANCE of impropriety without proof that the situation was actually improper?Scott, you may see something that you THINK is improper because you lack the ability to understand NUANCE (most authoritarian types do)….but you seem to ADMIT that there is only the APPEARANCE of impropriety and not actual impropriety.Give examples and tell me, what do you think the effect of the cause (of the appearance of impropriety– not actually proved impropriety, just the appearance, as that is what you are asking) should be? What do you think should happen because of the appearance of impropriety?

    it was a reference to the arpaio civil suit.

    Rickey: It is impossible to be too hard on birthers. They deserve all of the ridicule which is heaped upon them.

    isn’t that confirmation bias ?? actually the political ideologies come full circle somewhere between libertarian and super left super right. i can only speak for myself, but i am the opposite of authoritarian.

    it’s a fair question. why this need to lump everyone together ?

  55. avatar
    Keith May 28, 2015 at 7:32 am #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG:
    We have both Hermitian and john posting a bunch of dumb crap, I’m starting to have flashbacks from a few years ago.

    That’s what you get from taking the brown acid when you were warned against it.

  56. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) May 28, 2015 at 9:35 am #

    Hermitian: Obama can’t release two different images because the forger only created one digital PDF image

    So it’s 2011 all over again and you demand more confirmations of confirmations, and a copy of the other identical certified copy, but then you will be convinced Obama was born in Hawaii, right? Riiiiiiiightttttt? *smh*

  57. avatar
    Dave B. May 30, 2015 at 10:32 am #

    An example of RWA thinking– one of my old school chums just put this on Facebook, about the mess in Baltimore:

    “They (the indicted police officers) must have a fair trial by a jury of their peers. There are not any in Baltimore unless they are cops.. The local government is facsist and should be considered hostile towards law enforcement.”