Main Menu

Senator Lindsey Graham: America won’t elect a birther as president

Say what you will about presidential candidate Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC); he’s still the most vocal anti-birther voice in the US Senate, previously describing birthers as “crazy.”

Now Graham, on the Steve Malzberg Show, answered a question about whether Donald Trump would be the Republican nominee for president:

Oh no because if he did that’s the end of our chances in 2016. I don’t think we’re going to elect a man president of the United States who’s a birther. I don’t believe you’re going to elect a man president of the United States who spent thousands of his own dollars, he claims, trying to find out if Obama was born in Kenya. I don’t think you’re going to elect a man president of the United States who basically said most illegal immigrants are drug dealers and rapists, who slandered veterans like McCain. I just don’t believe he’s marketable.

H/t to Orly Taitz

, ,

98 Responses to Senator Lindsey Graham: America won’t elect a birther as president

  1. avatar
    john August 3, 2015 at 8:43 am #

    “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

    Thank You, Mr. Trump! America owes you a debt of gratitude for this comment.

  2. avatar
    john August 3, 2015 at 9:00 am #

    “I don’t believe you’re going to elect a man president of the United States who spent thousands of his own dollars, he claims, trying to find out if Obama was born in Kenya.”

    Notice that Lindsey Graham says that the Trump was “Trying” suggesting that Trump was as curious and concerned about Obama as almost 50% the rest were. The evidence that is out there that suggests was born in Kenya is higher than Mount Everest. It would take a small encyclopedia to discuss all the evidence and sources that say Obama was born in Kenya.

    How many sources can someone cite that suggest Trump was born in Kenya or somewhere else.

    I’m waiting the Obots says Trump was born on foreign lands. There has got to be something out there Obots.

  3. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 3, 2015 at 9:03 am #

    Thanks for the plug:

    The Debunker’s Guide to Obama Conspiracy Theories

    john: It would take a small encyclopedia to discuss all the evidence and sources that say Obama was born in Kenya.

  4. avatar
    Lupin August 3, 2015 at 9:04 am #

    john: Thank You, Mr. Trump! America owes you a debt of gratitude for this comment.

    Indeed it does!

    I’m glad Trump says those things unambiguously, clearly and loudly so that all of you bigots can be exposed in plain sight — and then utterly crushed at the ballot box.

    Trump is the electroral version of a roach motel.

  5. avatar
    Lupin August 3, 2015 at 9:06 am #

    john: How many sources can someone cite that suggest Trump was born in Kenya or somewhere else.

    Actually if I was as crazy as the rest of you I’d argue that Trump was born a potential dual US/UK citizen at birth through his mother.

    Frankly I fail to see how much different this is from Obama’s situation.

  6. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater August 3, 2015 at 9:30 am #

    john: “Trying” suggesting that Trump was as curious and concerned about Obama as almost 50% the rest were.

    There was no “almost 50%” who were birthers you remain a fringe of the fringe.

  7. avatar
    john August 3, 2015 at 9:32 am #

    “I don’t think you’re going to elect a man president of the United States who basically said most illegal immigrants are drug dealers and rapists”

    You know I was thinking, Judge Murray Snow ordered Arpiao not to secure the border and use any and all means possible to prevent illegals in our country. Like the santuary cities, this probably means that Judge Murray Snow is a facilitator of rape, drugs and murder. By not allowing Apriao to do his finest to secure our border Judge Snow is probably indirectly responsible for murder, rape and drugs.

  8. avatar
    John Reilly August 3, 2015 at 9:54 am #

    john: You know I was thinking, Judge Murray Snow ordered Arpiao not to secure the border and use any and all means possible to prevent illegals in our country.

    Judge Snow ordered no such thing.

    You, Sir, are a liar.

  9. avatar
    John Reilly August 3, 2015 at 9:55 am #

    I’m guessing that when Trump imports Mexicans to work in his hotels as busboys, housekeepers, and the like that Mexico is then sending us its best.

  10. avatar
    john August 3, 2015 at 10:03 am #

    John Reilly: Judge Snow ordered no such thing.

    You, Sir, are a liar.

    “Judge Snow expanded the complaint into a class-action lawsuit, including all Latino drivers stopped by the Sheriff’s Office since 2007, or who will be stopped in the future. He also enjoined the MCSO and all of its officers from “detaining any person based only on knowledge or reasonable belief, without more, that the person is unlawfully present within the United States, because as a matter of law such knowledge does not amount to a reasonable belief that the person either violated or conspired to violate the Arizona human smuggling statute, or any other state or federal criminal law.”

    Sounds like Judge Snow is a facilitator for murder, rape and drugs for illegals in this country.

  11. avatar
    bob August 3, 2015 at 10:58 am #

    Arpiao directed his office to exercise law enforcement powers in an unconstitutional manner.

    Why does Arpaio hate the U.S. Constitution? Why does Trump support someone who hates the U.S. Constitution? Why do you, john?

  12. avatar
    Rickey August 3, 2015 at 10:58 am #

    john:
    “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

    Thank You, Mr. Trump!America owes you a debt of gratitude for this comment.

    Actually, crime statistics prove that immigrants are less likely to be criminals than native-born Americans.

    http://immigrationpolicy.org/special-reports/criminalization-immigration-united-states

  13. avatar
    john August 3, 2015 at 11:11 am #

    Rickey: Actually, crime statistics prove that immigrants are less likely to be criminals than native-born Americans.

    http://immigrationpolicy.org/special-reports/criminalization-immigration-united-states

    So, how is that relevant. They are still killing and raping people. Kate is still death among countless others.

  14. avatar
    Lupin August 3, 2015 at 11:12 am #

    Rickey: Actually, crime statistics prove that immigrants are less likely to be criminals than native-born Americans.

    The Age of Hypocrisy may not be over but I, for one, am glad that Trump is finally and unambiguously throwing into the light all the loathsome bigots that crawled under the rocks, john being a perfect example.

    When they get pulverized at the ballot box — as they will — I’ll be savoring their bitter tears of impotent hatred.

  15. avatar
    Slartibartfast August 3, 2015 at 11:14 am #

    I don’t know if I’ve seen another birther that despises the Constitution as much as John does.

  16. avatar
    Lupin August 3, 2015 at 11:17 am #

    Slartibartfast:
    I don’t know if I’ve seen a birther that despises the Constitution as much as John does.

    Note that for john, the fact that Trump was a potential dual UK/US citizen at birth = crickets. But Obama, gadzooks! Spa Fon! Get the rope!

    I just love the Trump candidacy: it’s the roach motel of America’s underbelly.

  17. avatar
    Reality Check August 3, 2015 at 11:31 am #

    For those who don’t want to listen to the Graham whine about the deal with Iran the Trump comments are just after the 6:00 minute mark. I noticed Malzberg got really quiet and didn’t have any followup questions when Graham lit into Trump for being a Birther. It is probably because Malzberg himself is a Birther. He had Orly on his old radio show a number of times.

    Here is one example where he had the late Major Stephan Cook on with Taitz.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=099_1247873104

  18. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater August 3, 2015 at 11:32 am #

    john: http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/05/catalog-of-evidence-concerned-americans.html

    A catalog of a losing attorney who has no evidence to support his claims.

  19. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater August 3, 2015 at 11:34 am #

    john: So, how is that relevant.They are still killing and raping people.Kate is still death among countless others.

    Yes and many more were raped by Americans. The duggers come to mind as well as several tea party leaders.

  20. avatar
    Punchmaster via Mobile August 3, 2015 at 11:35 am #

    Every time one of john’s psycho-bigot heroes gets smacked down, be goes into a full blown flurry of tantrum posts.

  21. avatar
    bob August 3, 2015 at 11:49 am #

    john: http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/05/catalog-of-evidence-concerned-americans.html

    Do try to keep up, john: In 2010, Doc wrote eight articles that methodically debunked Apuzzo’s “evidence.”

  22. avatar
    Dave B. August 3, 2015 at 12:03 pm #

    Arpaio has no jurisdiction at the border.

    john: By not allowing Apriao to do his finest to secure our border Judge Snow is probably indirectly responsible for murder, rape and drugs.

  23. avatar
    Krosis August 3, 2015 at 12:37 pm #

    Deport all redheads, it will eliminate all potential murders and rapes committed by redheads, making the nation safer.

    On a side note, birthers are so entertaining. Just when Dr. Orly Taitz, Esq. ™ had had lost her shine, Zullo and his Posse (c) immediately rejuvenated the topic. Now, when Arpaio and Zullo offer no new material besides Arpaio being possibly tried for contempt, The Donald burst onto the scene…

  24. avatar
    Crustacean August 3, 2015 at 12:43 pm #

    According to Ivana Trump, The Donald is one of those Americans.

    On the subject of Trump’s electability, Graham is correct, and everyone who supports and votes for this hypocritical POS will get exactly what they deserve:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QGkOGZubQ

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Yes and many more were raped by Americans.

  25. avatar
    J.D. Sue August 3, 2015 at 1:13 pm #

    Lupin: Trump is the electroral version of a roach motel.


    Good one! That’s exactly what he is.

  26. avatar
    Notorial Dissent August 3, 2015 at 1:30 pm #

    I think you’re giving John much too much credit, I doubt he has even the slightest clue as to what is in the document in question, let alone ever having read it. It’s ever so much easier being a total and complete ass when you really are bare butt ignorant.

    Slartibartfast:
    I don’t know if I’ve seen another birther that despises the Constitution as much as John does.

  27. avatar
    Curious George August 3, 2015 at 1:55 pm #

    John,

    “So, how is that relevant [?]”

    John, the real question is, how are you relevant? You’re not.

    Have you had a chance to fill out the paperwork to donate your brain to science? I believe it may do wonders to determine what makes one an idiot and a liar. Donating your brain to science my indeed make you relevant.

  28. avatar
    Rickey August 3, 2015 at 2:04 pm #

    john: So, how is that relevant.

    The fact that you fail to see the relevance is further proof that you are a fool and a bigot (not necessarily in that order).

  29. avatar
    Rickey August 3, 2015 at 2:17 pm #

    John’s Facebook page showed that the he converted to Catholicism a few years ago, so I wonder what he has to say about Pope Francis’ statement on immigration a year ago:

    Many people forced to emigrate suffer, and often, die tragically; many of their rights are violated, they are obliged to separate from their families and, unfortunately, continue to be the subject of racist and xenophobic attitudes.

    Faced with this situation, I repeat what I have affirmed in this year’s Message for the World Day of Migrants and Refugees: “A change of attitude towards migrants and refugees is needed on the part of everyone, moving away from attitudes of defensiveness and fear, indifference and marginalization – all typical of a throwaway culture – towards attitudes based on a culture of encounter, the only culture capable of building a better, more just and fraternal world”

  30. avatar
    Joey August 3, 2015 at 2:30 pm #

    McClatchy-Marist Poll. July 22-28, 2015. N=964 registered voters nationwide.

    “If the 2016 presidential election were held today, whom would you support if the candidates are Hillary Clinton, the Democrat, and Donald Trump, the Republican?”
    Hillary Clinton (D): 54%
    DonaldTrump (R): 38%
    Unsure: 8%

    http://www.pollingreport.com/wh16gen.htm

  31. avatar
    bgansel9 August 3, 2015 at 3:46 pm #

    john: “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

    1. Prove that Mexico is “sending” anyone. The people who come over the border are doing this on their own, not at the behest of the Mexican government. Show this proof, John.

    2. For Donald Trump to say “they’re not sending you” is akin to quantifying everyone who he was talking to as Mexicans. I’m amazed that people like you eat this crap up and don’t even put words together and understand their meaning. You’re just in thrall to someone who make noise that sounds mean. Meanness is all you Trump people have.

    I’d like to add that it’s a shame that Graham isn’t going to be on the same stage as Trump for the debate, because I’m not sure any other candidate has to balls to throw Trump’s Birtherism in his face.

  32. avatar
    bgansel9 August 3, 2015 at 3:48 pm #

    Rickey: John’s Facebook page showed that the he converted to Catholicism a few years ago, so I wonder what he has to say about Pope Francis’ statement on immigration a year ago

    More than that, I’d like to see John’s explanation of the Biblical phrase “welcome the stranger.”

  33. avatar
    bgansel9 August 3, 2015 at 3:49 pm #

    Lupin: Trump is the electroral version of a roach motel.

    That was awesome!

  34. avatar
    bgansel9 August 3, 2015 at 3:59 pm #

    john: By not allowing Apriao to do his finest to secure our border Judge Snow is probably indirectly responsible for murder, rape and drugs.

    John, are you aware that Maricopa County is NOT a border county? Arpaio’s duties are to Maricopa County only. He was elected by Maricopa County voters.

  35. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 3, 2015 at 4:06 pm #

    Yes, but the most effective solution would be to kick out native born Americans rather than Immigrants, since they are more likely to rape and murder.

    john: So, how is that relevant. They are still killing and raping people.

  36. avatar
    J.D. Sue August 3, 2015 at 4:14 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Yes, but the most effective solution would be to kick out native born Americans rather than Immigrants, since they are more likely to rape and murder.

    john: So, how is that relevant. They are still killing and raping people.

    —-
    Or President Obama’s executive action, which directed our limited resources to deporting felons, but which the far right had enjoined.

  37. avatar
    Jim August 3, 2015 at 4:35 pm #

    john: “By not allowing Apriao to do his finest to secure our border Judge Snow is probably indirectly responsible for murder, rape and drugs.”

    Ummmm, john….by your good Sheriff not investigating over 600 sex crimes, Arpaio is DIRECTLY responsible for rapists being free to rape again and again in Maricopa County. Don’t think you want to bring up sex and the Sheriff in the same sentence.

    By Sheriff Arpaio’s DIRECT lack of oversight of his department, deputies have been stealing and abusing AMERICAN CITIZENS in Maricopa County. Or haven’t you seen all the ID’s. Credit Cards, etc that have been turned in? Those also belong to AMERICAN CITIZENS.

    You want more john? The worst sheriff in america is getting his law-breaking feathers clipped.

  38. avatar
    alg August 3, 2015 at 4:45 pm #

    john:
    You know I was thinking, Judge Murray Snow ordered Arpiao not to secure the border and use any and all means possible to prevent illegals in our country.Like the santuary cities, this probably means that Judge Murray Snow is a facilitator of rape, drugs and murder.By not allowing Apriao to do his finest to secure our border Judge Snow is probably indirectly responsible for murder, rape and drugs.

    John, I don’t know if you’ve looked at a map lately but, for your edification, Maricopa County is not on the border.

    For the record, Maricopa County is 9,224 square miles. The U.S. is 3,806,000 square miles. In other words, Maricopa County is only about a quarter of percent of the size of the entire United States. Nothing Arpaio does comes even close to “securing our borders.” His whole illegal immigration platform is just political rhetoric used to scare elderly citizens in Maricopa County into voting for him.

  39. avatar
    Northland10 August 3, 2015 at 6:21 pm #

    alg: John, I don’t know if you’ve looked at a map lately but, for your edification, Maricopa County is not on the border.

    For the record, Maricopa County is 9,224 square miles. The U.S. is 3,806,000 square miles.In other words, Maricopa County is only about a quarter of percent of the size of the entire United States.Nothing Arpaio does comes even close to “securing our borders.”His whole illegal immigration platform is just political rhetoric used to scare elderly citizens in Maricopa County into voting for him.

    And to collect campaign contribution from those outside his district. He knows his base is easily persuaded by sound bites and press performances. Actual facts and data mean little to those like John. Tell him the sweet nothings he wants to hear and he will follow you anywhere.

    It is the same sad song from know-nothing nativists from days gone by.

    Leviticus 19:33-34

    When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. ‘The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God.

  40. avatar
    katahdin August 3, 2015 at 6:56 pm #

    Notice the subtle way that Graham questions Trump’s honesty:

    “spent thousands of his own dollars, he claims, trying to find out if Obama was born in Kenya.”

    Very clever, considering that Trump has never shown any evidence that he actually hired investigators, as he claimed.

  41. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 3, 2015 at 8:21 pm #

    Graham is at the New Hampshire debate tonight with 13 other Republican candidates. Not Trump. He got ticked off by a critical editorial in the New Hampshire Leader, that is co-sponsoring the debate.

    http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/03/media/new-hampshire-republican-debate/

    It’s being broadcast here on the NBC affiliate (SC is an early voting state) and by C-SPAN.

  42. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 3, 2015 at 8:24 pm #

    There are also questions about the $120 million Trump claims to have donated to charity over the past few years. He said he might release his tax returns if Obama released his birth certificate, but he didn’t.

    He also said that he would release his financials the first day after he officially entered the presidential race (this was in 2011). He didn’t do that either.

    katahdin: Very clever, considering that Trump has never shown any evidence that he actually hired investigators, as he claimed.

  43. avatar
    Woodrowfan August 3, 2015 at 8:25 pm #

    are we sure John isn’t just performance art???

  44. avatar
    Arthur B. August 3, 2015 at 9:00 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: [Trump] got ticked off by a critical editorial in the New Hampshire Leader, that is co-sponsoring the debate.

    I had some trouble locating a link to the offending editorial. For those interested, it is at

    http://www.unionleader.com/article/20150721/OPINION01/150729852

  45. avatar
    Dave August 3, 2015 at 9:53 pm #

    I’m not even sure that Trump isn’t just performance art.

    Woodrowfan:
    are we sure John isn’t just performance art???

  46. avatar
    RanTalbott August 4, 2015 at 12:56 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: It’s being broadcast here on the NBC affiliate

    Interesting bit of irony from CNN’s description:

    Related: Huffington Post to cover Trump as entertainment

    None of the cable news channels will carry it live, but C-SPAN will, complete with a pregame show at 6:30 p.m. ET.

    I wonder whether the juxtaposition was accidental.

  47. avatar
    bgansel9 August 4, 2015 at 2:49 am #

    Northland10: Leviticus 19:33-34

    When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. ‘The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God.

    I’m sure John thinks Leviticus doesn’t apply to him because he was never in Egypt. It’s a shame he apparently hasn’t read Matthew 25:31-46, which tells him that welcoming the stranger also applies to Christians: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25:31-46

  48. avatar
    CRJ August 4, 2015 at 3:41 am #

    Now I understand why you guys hate Bernie Sanders who said he apposed “Open Borders” , and that was a Koch Bro. Republican conspiracy.

    We’ve finally found out whose interest Judge Snow has in mind. Its been Republicans all along.

    http://codyjudy.blogspot.com/2015/07/fox-news-debates-lowering-expectations.html?m=1

    Mr. Sanders: Open borders? No, that’s a Koch brothers proposal.
    Mr. Klein: Really?
    Sanders: Of course. That’s a right-wing proposal, which says essentially there is no United States.

    Mr. Klein: But it would make …
    Mr. Sanders: Excuse me …
    Mr. Klein: It would make a lot of global poor richer, wouldn’t it?
    Sanders: It would make everybody in America poorer — you’re doing away with the concept of a nation state.…]

    Here we thought it was Democrats who didn’t want to secure the border. Its been Republicans the whole time. Judge Snow is perfect Poster Boy for “Open Borders” Lol

  49. avatar
    RanTalbott August 4, 2015 at 4:07 am #

    Krosis: The Donald burst onto the scene

    Although he does seem to be gnawing on the string that holds the birfer albatross around his neck. He’s not tearing it off yet, but appears to be trying to weaken the string so he can ditch the bird quickly if he decides it’s become a liability.

    Meanwhile, a couple of birfoons in the youtube comments are ginning up a new theory that Trump is doing his campaign-like stunt as a way to get a platform from which he can launch a birther barrage that will finally finish Obama.

    And one of the gerbils has declared Carson a “closet birther” because, although he flatly denied believing the “born in Kenya” BS, he adamantly espoused the “sealed all his records” BS.

    They’re just about reduced to grasping at digital images of straws…

  50. avatar
    Lupin August 4, 2015 at 5:17 am #

    RanTalbott: They’re just about reduced to grasping at digital images of straws…

    What I picture is more like clutching at razor blades, not straws.

  51. avatar
    charo August 4, 2015 at 5:41 am #

    I have hesitated to comment on the immigration issue but here I am. I do not understand the progressive position on deporting immigrants who crossed the border illegally and then committed crimes. Once you allow the rule of law to be broken, why enforce the rule of law concerning deportation afterwards? Didn’t we accept the baggage of people who immigrated here from Ireland, Germany, and so forth? Were they deported if they committed crimes? I ask rhetorically because I do not understand the progressive mindset. It is the same as conservatives concerning deportation after commission of crimes.

    I have been teaching ELA (more commonly known as ESL) in a county prison for a year. Seventy five percent crossed the border (most from Mexico but some from other countries) and most of them have been charged with drug trafficking, a few with sexual assault. The rest are Puerto Ricans. Almost all the ones who crossed the border have been in the prison since before I started working there. They sit a long time before their cases are resolved, always with guilty pleas. Anyways, here is one guy’s story and not atypical in the major aspects. He came here at 14 to work in construction. He wasn’t a drug dealer then. He got arrested at age 21 for drug trafficking. In the meantime, he had a daughter with a young woman. He just entered a guilty plea, will be sentenced to 5 years in federal prison, and be deported after serving his time.

    So, what is the progressive view on guys like this? Deport the felon because he broke the law? The progressive mindset allows the law to be broken initially. What does the rule of law mean? Would strengthening the border ultimately be less painful for everyone?

    My job is to teach the men so that is what I do. I listen to their stories. We laugh all the time. Their English is much better than my Spanish. Many of them have been here a number of years.

  52. avatar
    John Reilly August 4, 2015 at 9:17 am #

    CRJ: Now I understand why you guys hate Bernie Sanders who said he apposed “Open Borders” , and that was a Koch Bro. Republican conspiracy.
    We’ve finally found out whose interest Judge Snow has in mind. Its been Republicans all along.

    As one of the registered Republicans on this site, I thought I should step in to say that I do not hate Sen. Sanders. I respect him a lot, and while we disagree on issues of policy, he is a dedicated and hard working public servant.

    And Sen. Sanders has never been charged with let alone convicted of a felony, unlike CRJ, who is a convicted domestic terrorist.

  53. avatar
    Northland10 August 4, 2015 at 9:20 am #

    Charo, I don’t get a sense that the folks here are necessarily for looser border controls but are commenting with the understanding that the government is limited by what Congress will fund. Immigration has been a complex issue for our country from day one and it will not be solved with a sound-bite and a tax cuts.

    As for the Irish immigrants who broke laws, you might want to read about the five points, and Boss Tweed.

  54. avatar
    John Reilly August 4, 2015 at 10:22 am #

    Northland10:
    Charo, I don’t get a sense that the folks here are necessarily for looser border controls but are commenting with the understanding that the government is limited by what Congress will fund.Immigration has been a complex issue for our country from day one and it will not be solved with a sound-bite and a tax cuts.

    As for the Irish immigrants who broke laws, you might want to read about the five points, and Boss Tweed.

    You can’t simplistically reduce the illegal alien problem to folks who crossed the border illegally. About 40-50% of the illegal aliens in this country arrived legally, and have overstayed visitor, student and employee visas. Halting illegal immigration is not just a matter of building a wall, but in funding a national police force to round up those who arrived legally but are now illegal. Since more than half of federal law enforcement already goes towards border security, it would take substantially more funds to round up and deport as many people as Trump and others suggest. Funds the Republicans would not appropriate from 2001 to 2007. And that force will make errors, or will try to deport someone brought here illegally as a baby who is now 40, or 70. What should we call such a national police force? INS? ICA?> The Gestapo? Maybe we could have national identity cards and make people supply at least as much proof of citizenship as Pres. Obama. I’m sure the Birthers will be thrilled that they have to line up before some federal official and prove their bona fides. And some folks named Smith and Jones in that process will be found unlawfully here from England. And the argument will be that because they are white and speak English at home then obviously the immigration laws were not made for them.

    This is a far more complex problem than “lets just round them all up” advocated by Trump and others who really lack the basic skills to manage complex problems.

  55. avatar
    Benji Franklin August 4, 2015 at 10:41 am #

    RanTalbott: Meanwhile, a couple of birfoons in the youtube comments are ginning up a new theory that Trump is doing his campaign-like stunt as a way to get a platform from which he can launch a birther barrage that will finally finish Obama.

    Yes, more pathos! To turn their unbroken string of failures into Birther Glory, the extent of any predicted ultimate Birther triumph mushrooms as though it is inversely proportional to the likelihood that such a triumph will occur. Such delusional triumphs can become ponderously elaborate during the deadline-vaulting, limitless time it takes them to not occur. Fortunately, the details of every ultimate Birther triumph can only be discerned from too far away.

  56. avatar
    Pete August 4, 2015 at 11:12 am #

    In other words, Americans have pretty well already decided they’d rather have Hillary Clinton than Donald Trump, and there aren’t enough undecideds for Trump to win even if ALL of them broke Trump’s way.

    Of course that could change, but that’s a big hill to climb.

    Joey: “If the 2016 presidential election were held today, whom would you support if the candidates are Hillary Clinton, the Democrat, and Donald Trump, the Republican?”
    Hillary Clinton (D): 54%
    DonaldTrump (R): 38%
    Unsure: 8%

  57. avatar
    Pete August 4, 2015 at 11:16 am #

    This bears repeating:

    Ummmm, john….by your good Sheriff not investigating over 600 sex crimes, Arpaio is DIRECTLY responsible for rapists being free to rape again and again in Maricopa County.Don’t think you want to bring up sex and the Sheriff in the same sentence.

  58. avatar
    Northland10 August 4, 2015 at 1:04 pm #

    John Reilly: This is a far more complex problem than “lets just round them all up” advocated by Trump and others who really lack the basic skills to manage complex problems.

    Nicely done, John R. Thanks.

  59. avatar
    Rickey August 4, 2015 at 1:49 pm #

    charo:
    I have hesitated to comment on the immigration issue but here I am. I do not understand the progressive position on deporting immigrants who crossed the border illegally and then committed crimes. Once you allow the rule of law to be broken, why enforce the rule of law concerning deportation afterwards?

    I’m not sure what you mean by the “progressive position” on undocumented immigrants who have committed crimes. Are you suggesting that progressives believe that immigrants who commit crimes should not be punished or deported? If you are, I have to say that I don’t know any progressives who are in favor of criminals going unpunished and not being deported if they are undocumented.

    First of all, let’s be sure that we are clear on the fact that being an undocumented immigrant is not, in and of itself, a crime. Entering the country illegally is a crime, but difficult to prove if the person isn’t caught in the act. And, as has already been pointed out, roughly half of the undocumented immigrants in the U.S. arrived here legally and overstayed their visas. Those people are committing a civil offense, but not a crime, by staying in the U.S. And “strengthening the border,” whatever that might entail, would do nothing about them.

    The issue is how the government can deal with the estimated 11.3 million undocumented aliens who are currently in the U.S. We can’t deport all of them, because there is no money for that. So the Obama Administration has decided to focus on deporting those who pose a danger. The Administration deported 438,000 aliens in 2013, a record high, and nearly half of them were criminals.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/02/u-s-deportations-of-immigrants-reach-record-high-in-2013/

  60. avatar
    Rickey August 4, 2015 at 2:01 pm #

    CRJ:
    Now I understand why you guys hate Bernie Sanders who said he apposed “Open Borders” , and that was a Koch Bro. Republican conspiracy.

    Where did you get the idea that Democrats support open borders? And where did you get the idea that we hate Bernie Sanders?

    For someone who claims to be presidential material, you don’t seem to know very much about how our government works.

    Judge Snow is not in favor of open borders. However, he is in favor of following the law. Immigration is a Federal matter, not a state matter. Joe Arpaio has no authority to enforce immigration laws, and he has no constitutional authority to use racial profiling when making traffic stops.

  61. avatar
    charo August 4, 2015 at 2:45 pm #

    Rickey: ’m not sure what you mean by the “progressive position” on undocumented immigrants who have committed crimes. Are you suggesting that progressives believe that immigrants who commit crimes should not be punished or deported?

    I am talking about deportation. Of course any person who commits a crime has to go through the criminal justice system. That is separate from immigration. Besides the example I gave in my comment, here is another. A man came over at age 15. He is now 30. He committed a drug offense in 2013, when he was 28. He has an American wife and two children. He is currently finishing his federal sentence and will be deported in a few weeks. He was the type of individual to which others have referred. Living here undocumented, working, establishing himself in the community. Does something wrong, like happens to people. He has lived all of his adult life here. I don’t have any easy answers myself concerning immigration. My positions are generally conservative, but I do have some sympathy for people who make mistakes. It seems to me that the progressive position is just as hardline when it comes to deportation as Trump. The borders are porous. I would guess that most deportations occur after a criminal act. Families have been irreparably harmed. Yet, not every person here who crossed the border will commit another crime. Illegal entry is a crime, even if tough to prove.

  62. avatar
    CRJ2016 August 4, 2015 at 3:12 pm #

    John Reilly: As one of the registered Republicans on this site, I thought I should step in to say that I do not hate Sen. Sanders. I respect him a lot, and while we disagree on issues of policy, he is a dedicated and hard working public servant.

    That was really nice of you to say.

    John Reilly: And Sen. Sanders has never been charged with let alone convicted of a felony, unlike CRJ, who is a convicted domestic terrorist.

    This was really false and ignorant- based probably on your wrestling with the pigs. Exaggerated charges of the past that are false are just as bad for instance in saying Obama wasn’t born where he says he was born.

    Publicly Prosecuting someone for standing up for ‘free speech’, ‘free assembly’, and constituting unlawful prosecutions of the clergy is probably as low as you can go here in America, but if you wanna go there, of course it is your choice.

    If you simply made a comment based on news paper clippings I suppose we can all assume Obama was in fact born in Kenya because there’s newspaper clippings saying he was.

    http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/05/17/flashback-2004-associated-press-innocently-reported-obama-born-kenya/

    That indeed would make him a usurper by the intelligence you express.

  63. avatar
    Dave B. August 4, 2015 at 3:19 pm #

    If Congress had been behaving responsibly and regularly adjusting the date for registry legalization under INA § 249, a lot of the heartache cases would’ve been resolved without any fuss.
    http://congressionalresearch.com/RL30578/document.php?study=Immigration+Registry+as+Means+of+Obtaining+Lawful+Permanent+Residence
    Learned Hand laid it out, regarding deportation of long-settled immigrants who had taken full root in American society, in US ex. rel. Klonis v. Davis:
    “That our reasonable efforts to rid ourselves of unassimilable immigrants should in execution be attended by such a cruel and barbarous result would be a national reproach.”

    charo: I am talking about deportation. Of course any person who commits a crime has to go through the criminal justice system. That is separate from immigration. Besides the example I gave in my comment, here is another. A man came over at age 15. He is now 30. He committed a drug offense in 2013, when he was 28. He has an American wife and two children. He is currently finishing his federal sentence and will be deported in a few weeks. He was the type of individual to which others have referred. Living here undocumented, working, establishing himself in the community. Does something wrong, like happens to people. He has lived all of his adult life here. I don’t have any easy answers myself concerning immigration. My positions are generally conservative, but I do have some sympathy for people who make mistakes. It seems to me that the progressive position is just as hardline when it comes to deportation as Trump. The borders are porous. I would guess that most deportations occur after a criminal act.

  64. avatar
    charo August 4, 2015 at 3:41 pm #

    I just posted on another thread that I don’t do probability problems, and I should include statistics. With that said, statistically speaking, when dealing with at least 11 million immigrants, there will be a percentage of individuals, who for whatever reason, commit felonies. The victims and their extended families, friends, will have an opinion, probably not favorable, of the immigrant and maybe immigrants in general. My car was totaled by an illegal immigrant when I was 21 and just obtained a teaching position. My then fiancee and now husband was driving and almost killed. I didn’t carry a torch over it, but that situation caused me significant problems. I was more liberal then in my thinking. I was not a victim of a violent crime nor did I lose a family member, which would have been much worse. Had I lost my husband, I may have been an activist for life against immigrants, I don’t know. The driver ran through the red light without stopping. He tried to leave the scene.

  65. avatar
    bob August 4, 2015 at 7:09 pm #

    CRJ2016:
    Publicly Prosecuting someone for standing up for ‘free speech’, ‘free assembly’, and constituting unlawful prosecutions of the clergy is probably as low as you can go here in America, but if you wanna go there, of course it is your choice.

    Except you didn’t do any of that: As part of your felony conviction, you admitted in open court that you threatened the president of the Council of the Twelve. In a crowded room. There is no First Amendment right to yell fire (or bomb) in a crowded theater (or fireside).

    Sounds like a convicted felon domestic terrorist.

    And that’s not a statement based on “newspaper clippings” — that’s based on actual court records.

    Judy isn’t man enough to accept responsibility for what he did.

  66. avatar
    Rickey August 4, 2015 at 8:17 pm #

    charo:
    I just posted on another thread that I don’t do probability problems, and I should include statistics. With that said, statistically speaking, when dealing with at least 11 million immigrants, there will be a percentage of individuals, who for whatever reason, commit felonies. The victims and their extended families, friends, will have an opinion, probably not favorable, of the immigrant and maybe immigrants in general. My car was totaled by an illegal immigrant when I was 21 and just obtained a teaching position. My then fiancee and now husband was driving and almost killed.I didn’t carry a torch over it, but that situation caused me significant problems. I was more liberal then in my thinking. I was not a victim of a violent crime nor did I lose a family member, which would have been much worse. Had I lost my husband, I may have been an activist for life against immigrants, I don’t know. The driver ran through the red light without stopping. He tried to leave the scene.

    The problem, as I see it, is that you seem to be drawing a causal relationship between the accident and the driver’s immigration status. If the driver had been a native American instead of an undocumented immigrant, would you have a negative attitude toward native Americans?

    There is an institutional problem, because most states do not allow undocumented immigrants to obtain a driver’s license. Consequently, they drive without having to pass written tests and driving tests, and because they are unlicensed they are more likely than most to be driving without auto insurance.

  67. avatar
    Rickey August 4, 2015 at 8:57 pm #

    CRJ2016:

    Publicly Prosecuting someone for standing up for ‘free speech’, ‘free assembly’, and constituting unlawful prosecutions of the clergy is probably as low as you can go here in America, but if you wanna go there, of course it is your choice.

    Freedom of speech and freedom of assembly are not licenses to threaten people and disrupt church meetings. Your rap sheet includes charges of aggravated assault, escape from official custody, aggravated burglary, and violation of a protective order. And I didn’t get that information from newspapers. It is public record at the Utah Department of Corrections.

  68. avatar
    charo August 4, 2015 at 9:05 pm #

    Cut me a break, Rickey. I was 21. And realistically, he should not have been driving if he did not understand traffic lights. That’s a no brainer. Anyways, discussion is always interesting.

  69. avatar
    Rickey August 4, 2015 at 10:25 pm #

    charo:
    Cut me a break, Rickey. I was 21. And realistically, he should not have been driving if he did not understand traffic lights. That’s a no brainer. Anyways, discussion is always interesting.

    Did you say that the driver didn’t understand traffic lights? I must have missed that part.

    Just because someone runs a red light, it doesn’t mean that he didn’t understand what a red light means. They have traffic lights in Mexico.

  70. avatar
    John Reilly August 5, 2015 at 12:24 am #

    bob: There is no First Amendment right to yell fire (or bomb) in a crowded theater (or fireside).

    There is also no First Amendment right to hijack someone else’s event so that you can talk. If Mr. Judy ever had anything interesting to say, he could stand on a street corner or hire a hall with his own money.

  71. avatar
    Keith August 5, 2015 at 2:27 am #

    charo: So, what is the progressive view on guys like this? Deport the felon because he broke the law? The progressive mindset allows the law to be broken initially. What does the rule of law mean? Would strengthening the border ultimately be less painful for everyone?

    Your premise that ‘the progressive mindset allows the law to be broken initially’ is fundamentally incorrect – and that is where you are going wrong on your argument.

    No one wants illegal immigration, but being in the country illegally is NOT a CRIMINAL offense – it is a CIVIL offense. You don’t go to jail for being in the country illegally – you get deported.

    You DO go to jail for criminal offenses – as your experience would seem to support. Obama wanted to put more resources into catching illegal felons in order to get the actual bad guys out of the country, all the while the civil deportations are at an all time high. But the reactionaries objected to the idea of tracking down and dealing with those felons.

    I don’t understand why those with the reactionary mindset want to provide protection and support to drug dealers and rapists but kick out your hard working, honest, maid, gardener, and fruit picker.

  72. avatar
    charo August 5, 2015 at 6:04 am #

    Illegal reentry is a felony offense and results in longer sentences than the second most frequent immigration charge brought this year, illegal entry, which is classed as a petty misdemeanor. During the first six months of 2011, the average prison sentence was 14 months for those convicted where illegal reentry was recorded as the lead charge. This contrasts with an average of only 1 month prison time for convictions where the recorded lead charge was just illegal entry. Together, these two statutes account for over nine out of ten (91 percent) of all immigration criminal prosecutions.

    http://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/251/

    Please read all of my comments before suggesting that I want to kick out maids, gardeners and fruit pickers. Certainly not every person who comes here does so for a bad reason. But people being people do fall. And by the way, almost every student of mine who was arrested for drug charges was working when he was arrested with jobs such as fruit picker, concrete layer, restaurant worker, truck driver, mechanic, and so on. Every Mexican did. One guy even had his own restaurant and store. As I said, many of them had been here for not just one or two years. They were already in the communities raising children. This is my experience only. I am not advocating for the release of criminals. I see an inconsistency in position. When speaking of millions, you will have people who turn to crime among the group. Some will have come with criminal intent, others get caught up in crime once here.
    Immigration is a big mess.

  73. avatar
    charo August 5, 2015 at 6:30 am #

    And on a lighter note (same guy who did Morgan Freeman in the other link I posted):

    https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=frank+caliendo+charles+barkley&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-004

    There are tons of Charles Barkley videos. lol

    Back to immigration, do you believe a path to citizenship includes deportation if found guilty of a criminal offense no matter how many years a person has been here? I truly do not know. One thing I think everyone agrees on is that bad people should not be allowed free entry to the country. Unfortunately, with millions having come, that has happened.

  74. avatar
    Rickey August 5, 2015 at 1:33 pm #

    charo:

    Back to immigration, do you believe a path to citizenship includes deportation if found guilty of a criminal offense no matter how many years a person has been here? I truly do not know. One thing I think everyone agrees on is that bad people should not be allowed free entry to the country. Unfortunately, with millions having come, that has happened.

    To me it depends upon the nature of the criminal offense. Certainly undocumented immigrants who commit felonies should be deported after they serve their sentences. But every case had to be judged on its own merits, and often we don’t know all sides to a story.

    One problem with talking about bad people is that they come from all walks of life. In fact, people who are born here are more likely to commit serious crimes than undocumented immigrants,

    An in spite of the fact that we have 11 million undocumented immigrants in the U.S., the violent crime rate in 2012 (the most recent number available) was the lowest rate since 1970. So the idea that illegal immigration is responsible for a rash of violent crimes is an erroneous notion.

    http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/State/RunCrimeStatebyState.cfm

  75. avatar
    y_p_w August 5, 2015 at 3:08 pm #

    Keith:
    No one wants illegal immigration, but being in the country illegally is NOT a CRIMINAL offense – it is a CIVIL offense. You don’t go to jail for being in the country illegally – you get deported.

    You DO go to jail for criminal offenses – as your experience would seem to support. Obama wanted to put more resources into catching illegal felons in order to get the actual bad guys out of the country, all the while the civil deportations are at an all time high. But the reactionaries objected to the idea of tracking down and dealing with those felons.

    Illegal entry is supposed to be a criminal offense, but there are various reasons why it doesn’t get prosecuted in favor of simple deportation. There could be a statute of limitations, or the facts of illegal entry might be difficult to prove in court. Then there’s the issue of whether or not to pay for incarceration for what many consider to be a relatively minor offense. It’s generally easier to send someone back to their place of origin.

  76. avatar
    Joey August 5, 2015 at 3:30 pm #

    8 U.S.C. § 1325 : US Code – Section 1325: Improper entry by alien
    (a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts

    Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both. (b) Improper time or place; civil penalties

    Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of – (1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry); or (2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under this subsection. Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed. (c) Marriage fraud Any individual who knowingly enters into a marriage for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined not more than $250,000, or both. (d) Immigration-related entrepreneurship fraud

    Any individual who knowingly establishes a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, fined in accordance with title 18, or both. http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/8/12/II/VIII/1325#sthash.CiocnQuM.dpuf

  77. avatar
    charo August 5, 2015 at 9:59 pm #

    The link I posted provides the numbers for 2011. I think most everything should be considered on a case by case basis, but sometimes it is not possible.

  78. avatar
    bgansel9 August 5, 2015 at 11:41 pm #

    bob: Judy isn’t man enough to accept responsibility for what he did.

    Well, I understand where Judy is coming from in that the person who has done bad things has to figure out a way to live with themselves. I understand Judy’s rewriting history to make himself look better. The difference is, we don’t have to live with him, or accept his need to bury his wrongdoing under the carpet to look himself in the mirror and rewrite the account of his past history. If Judy has a problem admitting his faults, perhaps he shouldn’t venture into places where he should have to be confronted by them. Just saying.

  79. avatar
    bgansel9 August 5, 2015 at 11:45 pm #

    y_p_w: Illegal entry is supposed to be a criminal offense

    You have a source for that? Or is that just your personal belief?

    https://www.aclu.org/files/assets/FINAL_criminalizing_undocumented_immigrants_issue_brief_PUBLIC_VERSION.pdf

  80. avatar
    y_p_w August 5, 2015 at 11:59 pm #

    bgansel9: You have a source for that? Or is that just your personal belief?

    Yeah I have a source for that. Up to 6 months for the first offense, and up to two years for the second and subsequent offenses. Joey posted it, but here it is again:

    http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title8/html/USCODE-2011-title8-chap12-subchapII-partVIII-sec1325.htm

    I thought it was pretty well understood that trying to enter outside designated border crossings or ports of entry is a criminal offense. Now apparently it wouldn’t be illegal for a US citizen to try to enter the US outside of a designated entry point, but it would be for a permanent resident (who is still considered an “alien”). The basics seems to be:

    Improper time or place
    avoidance of examination or inspection
    misrepresentation and concealment of facts

    Here’s something on criminal prosecution for illegal entry:

    http://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/356/

    Convictions for the petty offense of illegal entry (8 USC 1325) continue to dominate the criminal enforcement of federal immigration laws. During the first six months of fiscal year 2014, according to the case-by-case government records analyzed by the Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse (TRAC), two out of three immigration convictions — 24,647 out of a total of 36,256 criminal convictions — were for this offense. This ratio is little changed from the pattern of the last decade, which is striking given a recent surge in the number of people charged with felony illegal re-entry (8 USC 1326). While there was some year-to-year variation during the previous 10 year period from FY 2004-FY 2013, overall 65 percent of all immigration convictions were for illegal entry. During the first six months of the current fiscal year, 68 percent were convictions for the petty offense of illegal entry, which is punishable by up to six months in jail.

    However, it was noted that maybe half of undocumented aliens arrived on a proper visa or other permission and just overstayed the length of the visa. A Canadian can enter the US with a Canadian passport and no visa, although staying for two years would make them an undocumented alien. That’s not illegal entry. Illegal entry would be crossing the US-Mexico border across the Sonoran Desert and dodging the Border Patrol. Many die trying. Some are caught. Many who are caught are simply (civil) deported rather than going through the criminal process.

  81. avatar
    y_p_w August 6, 2015 at 12:14 am #

    bgansel9: You have a source for that? Or is that just your personal belief?

    https://www.aclu.org/files/assets/FINAL_criminalizing_undocumented_immigrants_issue_brief_PUBLIC_VERSION.pdf

    C’mon. Did you read the ACLU piece that you linked? It mentions both illegal entry and overstaying visas, working without authorization, and violating visa terms (like dropping out of school on a student visa). I agree being undocumented isn’t by definition an illegal act, but illegal entry is.

    Entering the United States without being inspected and admitted, i.e., illegal entry, is a misdemeanor or can be a felony, depending on the circumstances. 8 U.S.C. § 1325. But many undocumented immigrants do not enter the United States illegally. They enter legally but overstay, work without authorization, drop out of school or violate the conditions of their visas in some other way. Current estimates are that approximately 45% of undocumented immigrants did not enter illegally.

  82. avatar
    bgansel9 August 6, 2015 at 12:15 am #

    Honestly, I have never looked this up before, so I admit, I am new to this subject. Apparently if one does not catch the person walking over the border, then it is not illegal entry, but instead illegal presence and presence is NOT a criminal offense, but a civil offense. So, if I happened to be a Mexican who walked across the border six hours ago, and was caught 6 hours later, it would no longer be a criminal offense. The largest amount of “illegal” immigrants we have here are already here and not criminally liable, only civilly liable. How does this solve the problem of having 11 million undocumented immigrants in this country?

    But, you are correct, y_p_w and I admit it.

  83. avatar
    bgansel9 August 6, 2015 at 12:42 am #

    y_p_w: C’mon. Did you read the ACLU piece that you linked? It mentions both illegal entry and overstaying visas, working without authorization, and violating visa terms (like dropping out of school on a student visa). I agree being undocumented isn’t by definition an illegal act, but illegal entry is.

    As someone who is new to actually looking at this argument (because honestly, I’m one of those who personally believes in Jesus’ command that we are to welcome strangers and so I’m personally more for open borders than most people are – and therefore I don’t get angry at illegal entry) I was unaware until now that the argument wrests on whether one is entering or already present. I learned something new today. Thank you for that opportunity.

  84. avatar
    y_p_w August 6, 2015 at 1:08 am #

    bgansel9:
    Honestly, I have never looked this up before, so I admit, I am new to this subject. Apparently if one does not catch the person walking over the border, then it is not illegal entry, but instead illegal presence and presence is NOT a criminal offense, but a civil offense. So, if I happened to be a Mexican who walked across the border six hours ago, and was caught 6 hours later, it would no longer be a criminal offense. The largest amount of “illegal” immigrants we have here are already here and not criminally liable, only civilly liable. How does this solve the problem of having 11 million undocumented immigrantsin this country?

    But, you are correct, y_p_w and I admit it.

    Maybe it’s a semantic argument, but I’d still say it’s an illegal act even if one doesn’t get caught. I’m also thinking the language of the law doesn’t say that one has to be caught right AT the border. The law itself mentions NOT entering at a designated point of entry or deliberately falsifying information when entering as “improper entry”. I’m pretty sure the circumstances of finding an alien who has no visa and no record of a visa walking towards Tucson maybe 15 miles away from the border enough to convict for improper entry. IANAL, so that’s only my layman’s interpretation. The ability to convict might even hinge on when the statute of limitations could be invoked. I found an article mentioning the statute of limitations for illegal reentry as five years, but some dispute as to when that five years begins. However, the article does seem to hint that the suspect doesn’t have to be caught right at the border to be considered and prosecuted as an illegal reentrant. Once discovered, the suspect could then be investigated to attempt to determine when and where the entry occurred.

    http://columbialawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Anton-J.pdf

    In Toussie v. United States, the Supreme Court held that the statute of limitations on a crime begins to run when that crime is “‘complete,’” i.e. when all of its elements are satisfied. In the context of illegal reentry, which is subject to a five-year statute of limitations,the ability of a court to impute the federal government with knowledge of both the presence and status of an illegal reentrant allows it to rule that the crime was “complete,” and that the statute of limitations began to run, at a time earlier than when the federal government actually discovered that illegal reentrant. In other words, the standard allows a judge, when examining the validity of an indictment for illegal reentry, to shift the five-year window for prosecution backwards in time.

    Granted, I think our immigration system is broken and the revolving door of people getting back in is a sign that it’s broken. However, I’m just talking about what the law is at this point, and not what I wish it would be.

  85. avatar
    bgansel9 August 6, 2015 at 2:04 am #

    Well, the ACLU states Presence is not a criminal offense. Are they being too simplistic when they explain it that way? I am not versed in any of this (as I explained above) but it appears that Presence is a civil offense.

  86. avatar
    y_p_w August 6, 2015 at 11:23 am #

    bgansel9:
    Well, the ACLU states Presence is not a criminal offense. Are they being too simplistic when they explain it that way? I am not versed in any of this (as I explained above) but it appears that Presence is a civil offense.

    Sure, mere undocumented presence is not a criminal offense. However, that ACLU piece you linked goes on to describe how one can have an undocumented presence without any illegal entry. Overstaying a tourist visa is actually pretty common. I’ve worked with many on work visas, and it can be pretty stressful if the company or division’s future is in doubt. Getting laid off technically means that work visa expires. I’ve seen coworkers leave for a sure job and give up a chance at a big retention bonus because they weren’t sure ithe bonus payout would ever happen, and that even if it did that they’d have a job. Turns out the latter is what happened, so they made the right choice.

  87. avatar
    Keith August 6, 2015 at 9:20 pm #

    y_p_w: I’m pretty sure the circumstances of finding an alien who has no visa and no record of a visa walking towards Tucson maybe 15 miles away from the border enough to convict for improper entry. IANAL, so that’s only my layman’s interpretation.

    The last time I was there, the border checkpoint seemed to be north of Sierra Vista. A lot more than 15 miles from the border, and with probably 200k people between it and the border.

    And the barrage balloons hanging over the border almost makes you think you’re in London during the blitz (the image ruined my brother’s funeral at Ft. Huachuca)

  88. avatar
    y_p_w August 6, 2015 at 10:40 pm #

    Keith: The last time I was there, the border checkpoint seemed to be north of Sierra Vista. A lot more than 15 miles from the border, and with probably 200k people between it and the border.

    And the barrage balloons hanging over the border almost makes you think you’re in London during the blitz (the image ruined my brother’s funeral at Ft. Huachuca)

    Well – I’m not all that familiar with the geography of the area. I was just thinking up theoretical distances to describe not specifically being found crossing AT the border but with a reasonable suspicion of a recent crossing at the border. In any case, I would have thought that most illegal migration would involve avoiding the major routes into the US.

  89. avatar
    RanTalbott August 7, 2015 at 2:30 am #

    Keith: The last time I was there, the border checkpoint seemed to be north of Sierra Vista.

    The border checkpoint is at the border, in Naco. That’s an “inspection checkpoint”, intended to catch some of the people and drugs that went around the border checkpoint. There’s a similar one on I-19 between Nogales and Tucson.

    The theory is that it creates a chokepoint, though there are routes around it that are only somewhat less convenient.

    Sorry to hear that the aerostat marred your visit at a difficult time. Locally, it’s seen as a landmark (“airmark”??), much the way those in the big cities view something like the Corn Palace or the Space Needle. You can even get pictures of it on postcards. It’s definitely not considered a symbol of being “under siege”.

  90. avatar
    CRJ2016 August 10, 2015 at 8:57 pm #

    Rickey: Freedom of speech and freedom of assembly are not licenses to threaten people and disrupt church meetings. Your rap sheet includes charges of aggravated assault, escape from official custody, aggravated burglary, and violation of a protective order. And I didn’t get that information from newspapers. It is public record at the Utah Department of Corrections.

    You forgot “disrupting school’ and ‘disrupting a meeting’ the original charges that were misdemeanors.

    Yeah, and I do not recall in those official charges anything about ‘domestic terrorism’ or a ‘bomb’ charge..which makes the statements made on here exactly what I referred them to be. An affront to the Record, and a witness of false charges made by a newspaper you have called an authority here.

    You know, this is precisely why we have laws against a Union of Church and State. If the State can come into a church and dictate what words ‘mean’, then all of Religions are essentially either ‘criminal’, or ‘incompetently insane’.

    Let’s ask a simple question. Where would you expect the greatest latitude of free speech to be made- on the street corner – or in a Church Meeting?

    If you don’t say a ‘church meeting’, then you really have no idea why we have the First Amendment and ‘free speech’ was actually mentioned in the First Amendment.

    Contrary to your analogy, I didn’t yell ‘Fire” in a crowded theater. But there are circumstances where even that should be balanced with some sort of reasonable mind and common sense. For instance, the Judge brings the Dad in and he reports that his daughter’s name is ‘Fire’, she had been abducted and he was worried for her life.

    You know its the lack of imagination and willingness to prosecute stupid sh*t that is the reason I could never run as a Republican. I think maybe you should consider joining the TEDCruz2016 group?

    He said in the debate he would favor a minimum mandatory 5 years for an illegal who was repeated caught coming across the border. That would only cost the U.S. Citizens here 50K a year for 5 years, tax payers $250,000 per person.

    The folks like yourself do not see the prison that they are in, nor do they see the way out. Its sad really but the regard in such for freedom and liberty is dismal.

    Its kind of sad when you have a fight for forgiveness in a Church and the State is willing to forgive you faster than the Church is.
    http://codyjudy.blogspot.com/2015/02/fight-over-forgiveness-lds-church.html?q=hate+speech

    Of course you know when someone does the time you still don’t count that as ‘owning it’ because your always requiring more freight. I can only hope our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ goes easier on you than you have on me.

    http://codyjudy.blogspot.com/2014/04/reflections-on-elections-this-easter.html?q=hate+speech

    God Bless You my friends

  91. avatar
    bob August 10, 2015 at 10:00 pm #

    CRJ2016:
    Yeah, and I do not recall in those official charges anything about ‘domestic terrorism’ or a ‘bomb’ charge

    Although domestic terrorism is a federal crime, it is also a decriptive term; words can have more than one function. And you admitted in open court the whole “bomb” scenario; that the word “bomb” doesn’t appear on your rap sheet doesn’t mean you didn’t commit the acts that you admitted you committed.

    a witness of false charges made by a newspaper you have called an authority here.

    Because you are slow: People here are quoting official government documents, not newspapers. Which you have failed to show are actually incorrect.

    If you don’t say a ‘church meeting’, then you really have no idea why we have the First Amendment and ‘free speech’ was actually mentioned in the First Amendment.

    The First Amendment does not protect threats of any kind or at any location, “Mr. President.”

    Contrary to your analogy, I didn’t yell ‘Fire” in a crowded theater.

    You yelled “bomb” at a fireside. Or are you going to bear some more false witnesssing?

    For instance, the Judge brings the Dad in and he reports that his daughter’s name is ‘Fire’, she had been abducted and he was worried for her life.

    Since you don’t have a child named “Bomb,” your ridiculous hypothesis is inapt.

    Of course you know when someone does the time you still don’t count that as ‘owning it’ because your always requiring more freight.

    Because you don’t own it: you keep denying or minimizing your actions, and the harm you caused.

  92. avatar
    Rickey August 11, 2015 at 2:20 am #

    CRJ2016:

    Yeah, and I do not recall in those official charges anything about ‘domestic terrorism’ or a ‘bomb’ charge..which makes the statements made on here exactly what I referred them to be. An affront to the Record, and a witness of false charges made by a newspaper you have called an authority here.

    You apparently have me confused with someone else. I haven’t declared any newspapers stories to be authoritative. I got your arrest information from the Utah Department of Corrections.

    Let’s ask a simple question. Where would you expect the greatest latitude of free speech to be made- on the street corner – or in a Church Meeting?

    If you don’t say a ‘church meeting’, then you really have no idea why we have the First Amendment and ‘free speech’ was actually mentioned in the First Amendment.

    You are displaying your ignorance of the Constitution. Churches are not required to allow freedom of speech, just as private business are not required to. The First Amendment only applies to the government restricting your speech.

    Besides, you weren’t convicted because of what you said. You were convicted because of what you did.

    Its kind of sad when you have a fight for forgiveness in a Church and the State is willing to forgive you faster than the Church is.

    The fact that you have issues with the LDS Church is your own problem. I’m not going to go there.

  93. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) August 11, 2015 at 4:28 am #

    CRJ2016: Where would you expect the greatest latitude of free speech to be made- on the street corner – or in a Church Meeting?

    No church will (have to) grant you free speech if you run in yelling “Jesus s*cks b*ll*cks!” whereas you are free to chant that on the street corner.

  94. avatar
    Keith August 11, 2015 at 5:21 am #

    RanTalbott: The border checkpoint is at the border, in Naco.

    The major crossing point in Arizona is at Nogales. There are eight ‘official’ Arizona ‘border checkpoint’ crossings according Professor Google.

    I have crossed at Douglas/Agua Prieta, Naco/Naco, Nogalas/Nogalas, Lukeville/Sonoyta, and San Louis/San Louis.

    I have been to Sasabe (I have a hat that asks “Where the hell is Sasabe”) but don’t remember crossing into Mexico from there.

    I have not been to Lochiel or Aros Ranch. I suspect that Lochiel would be a lousy choice of a spot to cross; but that’s just me, and I’m not in the mindset of the desperate people that want to get north by hook or by crook. I have never even heard of Aros Ranch, unless they are talking about this crossing south of San Miguel which I’ve been to a couple of times (but I can’t for the life of me remember why? maybe hunting with my Dad and Uncles when I was about 12?).

    I put it to you that if you are being checked at the “inspection stop” on I-19 north of Sierra Vista, odds are you are coming from Nogales. But I get your point, you are suggesting that someone crosses at Naco and heads for Tucson by whatever route. Fine.

    A friend of mine worked for the Border Patrol back in the day and was involved with one of the most infamous border crossing incidents in the late 70’s. Coyotes dumped a truck load of people out in the middle of Organ Pipe Monument in the middle of summer and just left them there. IIRC 12 people died from heatstroke and thirst and the rest were barely alive when found. My friend was in on the search for survivors. If I remember rightly, the theory was that the Coyotes, having crossed somewhere west of Lukeville, actually meant to dump their cargo near Quitobaquito Springs but got lost in the dark. They panicked sometime before dawn and just left them there to die.

  95. avatar
    bovril August 11, 2015 at 9:28 am #

    Sooooo,

    Man named Judy

    Since when does the BoM (Book of Mormon) look like a mobile telephone wrapped in wiring to look like a bomb..? Last I checked the BoM is, well a book, looks like a book and has all the appearance of a book.

    And holding said BOMB (fake as it was) against someone’s head, which you did doesn’t strike me as the act of someone with a book…does it..?

    Stop trying to rewrite your personal history, there’s a good terrorist, embrace your feckwitedness, mental instability and outright muppetry proud ‘n loud.

  96. avatar
    Rickey August 11, 2015 at 11:13 am #

    bovril:
    Sooooo,

    Man named Judy

    Since when does the BoM (Book of Mormon) look like a mobile telephone wrapped in wiring to look like a bomb..? Last I checked the BoM is, well a book, looks like a book and has all the appearance of a book.

    And holding said BOMB (fake as it was) against someone’s head, which you did doesn’t strike me as the act of someone with a book…does it..?

    Stop trying to rewrite your personal history, there’s a good terrorist, embrace your feckwitedness, mental instability and outright muppetry proud ‘n loud.

    In his book, CRJ calls his actions “a childish prank.”

  97. avatar
    Punchmaster via Mobile August 12, 2015 at 10:26 am #

    Even if the bomb wasn’t real, he was trying to instill fear into people, to get his way. That’s a pretty airtight definition of “terrorist”, if you ask me!