Reed Hayes is a professional document examiner from Hawaii, and to my knowledge the only person in his profession to conclude that Barack Obama’s long form birth certificate is a fake. Despite the fact that his report has never been published, reliable sources confirm that Hayes has described the Obama certificate as a forgery (despite repeated verifications of its contents by the State of Hawaii). The reason for keeping the 40 page report under wraps is unknown, but we do know that Mike Zullo is the one who owns the report, and the one that has prevented its publication for over two years.
Now, in a seemingly unrelated lawsuit in Arizona, Melendres v. Arpaio, a subpoena from the ACLU to Mike Zullo requests the delivery of documents that this writer believes include the Reed Hayes report. Readers may draw their own conclusion from reading the subpoena themselves.
The key section of the subpoena that I believe covers the Reed Hayes report appears on page 14, and reads:
Copies, to be provided in native format with metadata, of all emails, text messages, or other written communications, including any attachments and metadata, and including communications and DOCUMENTS sent to or from personal email accounts such as detmack@gmail.com, 1tick@earthlink.net, dwebb605@gmail.com, and emails and text messages sent using personal smartphones, tablets or other communications devices or MCSO-provided devices, sent to or from YOU, Sheriff Arpaio, Chief Deputy Sheridan, Brian Mackiewicz, Dennis Montgomery a/k/a David Webb, Retired Executive Chief Brian Sands, any employee of Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office, or any member of the Cold Case Posse, from December 23, 2011 through the present, that mention or relate to:
…
(c) any investigation conducted by Sheriff Arpaio or MCSO or agents of Sheriff Arpaio or MCSO, or on Sheriff Arpaio’s or MCSO’s behalf, of Judge Snow or of any judge or elected official, and/or their family members and/or their associates.
It would seem to me that the Reed Hayes report was certainly part of a written communication; it was to Mike Zullo; and it involved the investigation of an elected official (i.e., Barack Obama) on behalf of Sheriff Arpaio. Indeed, Zullo’s entire investigation of Obama’s birth certificate would seem to be within the scope of this subpoena!
Some might challenge the relevance of the subpoena of Obama investigation records to the Melendres affair; however, it goes to a pattern of behavior. As one said to me, it goes to a pattern of behavior of speculative investigations, accepting woefully inadequate information in an investigation, devoting MCSO resources to speculative nonsense instead of compliance with court orders. and investigating enemies.
Of course those on the opposite side of the birther isle want to see the Reed Hayes report in order to confirm or debunk it. It’s a matter of interest how Reed Hayes came to his conclusion and what methodology he employed. Based on hints from Mike Zullo, it appears that at least part of the report is an endorsement of material previous published by Mike Zullo on the PDF, rather than a handwriting analysis. The following is from Mike Zullo’s affidavit (quoting the Hayes report) presented in the McInnish v. Chapman appeal in Alabama:
“…based on my observations and findings, it is clear that Certificate of Live Birth I examined is not a scan of an original paper birth certificate,but a digitally manufactured documented created by utilizing material from various sources.”
If indeed Hayes just buys into prior Zullo material, then it has already been debunked.
Update:
For many months I checked the Reed Hayes web site to see if there was anything on Barack Obama’s birth certificate (after a report that Hayes intended to write something on it). I finally gave up. The April 11, 2015, archive of ReedWrite.com does not contain the page, but it is there now. So here is what Hayes says about his investigation into Obama’s birth certificate. (I asked archive.org to save this page today.)
Here are some items of interest:
- Zullo approached Hayes in November, 2012
- Hayes’ examination is based solely on the PDF, not the press photos of the document
- Hayes denies ever saying he was 100% certain of anything
- Hayes has never been an expert witness for the Perkins Coe law firm, although he did work for one of their attorneys in the 90’s.
- Hayes is not a registered Democrat.
What little can be gleaned from the Hayes web page suggests that he based his conclusions on the electronic artifacts in the PDF file, many if not all of which have been reproduced scanning real documents with a Xerox machine.
Update 2:
The ACLU subpoena has been modified not to include the period between December 23, 2011 and August 31, 2013. This would seem to exclude the Hayes report.
Breaking: New Zullo subpoena asks for, among other things, post Dec. 23, 2011 communications and docs relating to, among other things, investigations into any elected officials.
Birthers can breath a sigh of relief – Zullos’ “evidence” will finally see the light of day!!
https://www.scribd.com/doc/282810764/Melendres-1396-Zullo-Subpoena
I suspect its what birthers secretly fear.
He also looks like he might testify in late October.
By Sept 30th he has to produce all the documents specified in Attachment A.
He gets deposed on October 7th.
He has to be in court Oct 8-9, Oct 13-14 and Oct 27-30 to possibly testify.
No problem. He’s got all those copiers the posse acquired in their grand investigation of the birth certificate. Warehouse’s full…..I’m sure.
Looks to me like Hayes’ report is covered by the subpoena.
What does everyone else think?
Absolutely. It is a DOCUMENT(1) regarding an investigation of an elected official(2) in Zullo’s control(3). It meets all the listed criteria.
Brilliant!
bgansel9 September 26, 2015 at 4:57 pm (Quote) #
“CarlOrcas: Looks to me like Hayes’ report is covered by the subpoena.
Brilliant!”
Yes, the ACLU attorneys on this case are BRILLIANT! Good luck Mikey, you’ll need it.
IANAL – but I wouldn’t think so as it was completed before Montgomery came on board, is unrelated to Melendres v. Arpaio both the original case and the contempt case.
I don’t see any wiggle room for Zullo to claim he paid for it and its his and not blah, blah, blah.
Mr. Hayes seems to bark and wag his tail a bit on his website regarding his report on the COLB.
http://reedwrite.com/?page_id=620
The sleeping minority finally figured out that their mighty Zullo was subpoenaed in the Melendres v. Arpaio case.
Here’s their only reply and it comes from “Guest.”
“Looks like Obama’s corrupt DOJ, Obama’s Perkins Coie, and the corrupt Judge conspired against Sheriff Arpaio and the United States.
Lead Investigator, Mike Zullo and the Sheriff should have that third press conference before the deposition. This way Obama will be exposed fully for the fraud he is. Congress will have to act. The people will not stand for anymore scandals from a proven unlawful pResident.
The subpoena, at that point, will be fruitless for Obama and others that have conspired against the United States to overthrow the government. In other words the cat is already out of the bag and they will lose steam. The conspirators will be to busy defending themselves.”
Of course, “Guest” obviously didn’t bother to read the subpoena. The Universe Shattering A/Z Day is fast approaching, courtesy of the ACLU.
He certainly spends a lot of time (and space) talking about a report he says he can’t talk about.
What a fool.
As far as Mr. Reed Hayes is concerned, Birthers should go to Mr. Hayes’ website and actually take the time to see what he says about his part in the Obama birth certificate investigation. Here is an excerpt from his website:
“In short, there are indications that the Obama Certificate of Live Birth released by the White House in April 2011 may be a manufactured document or perhaps even an outright forgery. But without examining the original document housed at the Hawaii Department of Health, there can be no absolute certainty.”
Contrary to what Mr. Hayes wrote, the Verification of Birth verifies all of the information contained on the PDF document. It is an absolute certainty that the information contained on the PDF is legitimate. If this excerpt represents the best that Mr. Hayes can offer (not being able to examine the original document) the report, if obtained by the ACLU, and when the contents are exposed to the public, the conclusions of the report will be a major disappointment to Birthers. Maybe this is why Zullo has kept it from public scrutiny.
link to reed Hayes website.
http://reedwrite.com/?s=obama&searchButton=Search
The subpoena contains the words “an elected official” although it does not specify what kind of elected official or the juristiction of such an elected official. Barack Obama is not an elected official of Maricopa County or even the State Arizona, so any investigation would outside the juristiction of MCSO.
Then why was the MCSO ever investigating the President at all, O racist drive-by troll, if he was outside their jurisdiction?
Can’t have it both ways, son.
It’s my understanding the The Reed Hayes Report has been CopyRighted and therefore would subjected to certain Copy Right Protections versus documents which are not Copyrighted.
Are you under the impression that a copyright is some sort of magical incantation that invalidates a judge’s order? That a copyright somehow invalidates a subpoena?
How do you even function? I’m serious. That’s really stupid.
Maricopa County and Arizona aren’t part of the United States?
I’ll be damned.
What would those “Protections” be, john…..that are relevant in this situation?
I hate to burst your bubble, but a copyright does not shield a document from being subject to production pursuant to a valid subpoena. However, Zullo could request that the court protect his copyright by keeping the report under seal.
Apparently I should have said that Zullo would never voluntarily produce the Hayes report!
And what happens when he is questioned about it in a deposition or open court?
But more to the point why would the judge allow it to be kept secret?
I’ve long believed that Zullo wouldn’t release the Hayes report because it contains qualifying language that he would have to see the original document in order to give a conclusive opinion. Maybe will we find out.
I’m wondering if the ACLU is thinking about delving into Arpaio’s birther investigation as evidence of a pattern of Arpaio misusing his office by attempting to discredit his political enemies.
I’m not predicting the Judge Snow would agree to keep it under seal. I’m just suggesting that Zullo might request that it be sealed.
Zullo could argue that he paid for the report, he holds they copyright, and he plans to publish it someday when he writes a book about his investigation. He would then argue that the report’s value would be diminished if the court allows it to be released.
If he does that, and Judge Snow agrees, there are ways to keep testimony about it out of the public record. For example, in patents litigation courts will take steps to keep trade secrets from becoming public record.
First of all, it’s interesting that come hell or high water, Zullo is never going to release Reed Hayes’ report, except under duress. That should be pretty clear, even to birthers. Zullo himself basically said the investigation had “moved on” (or words to that effect) from the birth certificate.
So why won’t Zullo release it? Either A/Z are going to pursue some action regarding it, or they aren’t. (Although it’s pretty obvious they aren’t, EVER.)
Either way, THERE’S NO REASON NOT TO RELEASE REED HAYES’ REPORT, IF IT CONTAINS ANY “EVIDENCE” OF VALUE.
The inescapable conclusion, then, is: It contains nothing of any real value.
Because that’s the ONLY situation in which Zullo would have any reason NOT to release it.
So here we have a report that’s actually MORE VALUABLE (to Zullo) as an UNRELEASED DOCUMENT than it would be if Zullo released it.
The thing is, we don’t really need for it to be released in order to have a good idea what it says. The above quote pretty much tells us.
First of all, it would appear to short of declaring Obama’s birth certificate a “forgery.” The one “expert” they could find (after consulting a couple hundred, according to Zullo) who would even touch it FAILED TO PRODUCE THE BIRTHER-DESIRED RESULTS.
Second, it appears that Hayes’ position is that there are “indications that the Obama Certificate of Live Birth released by the White House in April 2011 may be a manufactured document or perhaps even an outright forgery.”
The key words here are “MANUFACTURED DOCUMENT.” Those words are a pretty clear indication that Reed Hayes, with no knowledge whatsoever of how the PDF was put together in the scan process from the Xerox WorkCentre, stepped outside of the area of his (arguable) expertise and opined on a technological process that he doesn’t know the faintest thing about.
So even without looking at Reed Hayes’ report, we would already appear to know why Zullo won’t release it.
1) It falls short of declaring Obama’s birth certificate a forgery, and
2) It’s worthless in terms of any “expert” value whatsoever, because it’s based on Reed Hayes’ “expert” opinion on issues he doesn’t know the faintest thing about.
Zullo knows quite well that if the report were released, it would take considerably less than 24 hours to shred it into the tiniest of confetti.
Copyright and trade secret are different things. If one goes down that road, a party to a lawsuit could claim copyright on anything as an excuse for not producing it.
If the report doesn’t contain such language, then Reed Hayes is not a credible “expert.” No real document expert is going to reach a conclusion based on an image grabbed from the internet.
Wow, Hayes finally published something! I looked for that for months and finally gave up.
http://reedwrite.com/?page_id=620
I’ve added this to the article.
BTW, for those who asked, Mike Zullo is still living in Arizona.
Hayes would have probably have been better off saying nothing but felt compelled to comment because his professional reputation has taken a beating from his work with Zullo. His attempt to justify what he did for Zullo is weak to the point of being ridiculous and confirms why 212 other document examiners turned down Zullo. If I had time I could write an article with the headline “Reed Hayes comparres Mike Zull and the Birthers to murderers” based upon this statement?
It appears that Hayes’s conclusions are based on the same flawed analysis used by other non-experts who mistook MRC/JBIG2 Xerox scanning compression artifacts for signs of forgery. Hayes CV provides no support for expertise in the field of examination of computer graphic images and it is obvious from his conclusions in this case that he is not an expert in that area.
Those of us who maintained that Hayes would never pass a Daubert examination have been proved correct.
I know for certain that Reed Hayes is aware of the official verifications from the State of Hawaii that the pdf on whitehouse.gov is accurate and authentic. That’s because I and others here sent him communications bringing the verifications to his attention. Yet he fails to say anything about them in his “explanation” of himself.
The only party that has the standing to conclude the pdf version of the President’s LFBC is a “forgery” is the State of Hawaii. Instead, they’ve concluded exactly the opposite. The absence of any acknowledgement of this fact by Mr. Hayes in his “explanation” should lead all of us to conclude that Mr. Reed Hayes is a charlatan and a liar.
It’s unknown if Mike Zullo even has Reed Hayes Report. He might have given to Reed Hayes or even Carl Gallup. If that’s case, the subpoena should be on them not Zullo. As far information Zullo’s personal email, those emails might have be long since erased or otherwise discarded or transferred. Depending upon which computers Zullo might have accessed his email from, those computer coulld long discarded or destroyed. They would have to subpoena EarthLink to get access to Zullo’s original emails.
I’m not sure I would go that far.
I’m guessing that Hayes accepted the job, stepped way outside of any boundaries of his expertise, and now wishes he hadn’t taken it on.
Maybe he needed the money. How much money is there in being a handwriting expert? How many jobs?
I think it’s a case of someone who goofed up, who now doesn’t know how to extricate hiimself from the mess.
It may even be that Hayes asked Zullo not to release the report because he doesn’t want it to see the light of day either.
Hayes does seem to be backtracking a little:
“In short, there are indications that the Obama Certificate of Live Birth released by the White House in April 2011 may be a manufactured document or perhaps even an outright forgery. But without examining the original document housed at the Hawaii Department of Health, there can be no absolute certainty.”
Not as straight forward a statement as birthers like to claim. i wonder if he put that disclaimer in his original report or if it is a result of being bombarded with facts.
His belief that someone in the White House may have faked the BC to get Obama impeached is nuts.
FYI, he first said he was going to publish something on his website dispelling some myths about his participation in the CCP stuff back in May, 2014.
John,
No matter how much you try to dig out of this hole for Zullo, he’s in a very bad spot. And as things progress with Zullo on the stand, who knows what additional subpoenas may be issued and to what party? If I were one of the many numbers of Zullo confidants, I would be watching as the hearing events unfold very carefully. John, maybe even you’ll be served as well?
Well he obverously saw what happened to Loretta Fuddy and didn’t want to get Breitbarted himself.
Thank you for admitting that the MCSO lacks jurisdiction to investigate President Obama.
Nice try, john.
If, for some reason, Zullo doesn’t have the report he will have to explain why and who has it. Given everything he has said that will be interesting to watch.
As far as e-mails are concerned he better not have disposed of any since this case began. That will make the judge very unhappy.
On the subject of e-mails you have indicated that you were in communication with Zullo which raises the delightful possibility that (if true) your e-mails will be revealed for all to ponder.
Zullo has incrementally improved his credibility in my eyes. Indeed it does appear that his super secret investigation is about to shatter AARPaio’s universe. Other than his universe shattering comment, I find him non-credible.
I wish Zullo good luck at his depo on 10/7/2015. Mike Zullo could decide to postpone by getting sprayed by a skunk the night before or earlier that day. He could say he went outside to walk his dogs and surprised a skunk and got sprayed. It was an accident and it does happen. Anyway, if Zullo wants to go for his depo, remember these tips.
The Opposing lawyer is the enemy – They are there to impeach, damage and to destroy you. The less you say the better.
Make sure you have strong Garlic Breath and maybe some BO. It will make the lawyer insecure. Since the the depo is video taped, try not to look at the camera. Perhaps if you fain a bad cough, you can have a hankerchief which will make the depo more disruptive and make the lawyer more uncomfortable.
If at all possible, never ever ever agree with the opposing lawyer. They are never ever right and the opposing lawyer is your enemy.
The opposing lawyer is never ever ever right about anything. You attempt to argue every last point.
You appear to be smart guy but in reality you are a really really dumb person. Being an idiot or a dunst is not a crime. Therefore, the opposing lawyer’s question will always be too complicated to understand. You always ask for clalrification and if at all possible always answer the question with a question. You are a 5 year old and a 5 year old must understand the opposing lawyers questions.
Always take time to consider your answer before you answer a lawyer’s questions. You have that right. Remember, in chess, players may take 1 or 2 hours to make a move. It may take 1 to 2 hours to fully consider an opposing lawyers question.
Good luck Zullo. I’m sure there is going to a lot of yelling, screaming and swearing at the depo.
For those paying attention, the people that Hayes is accusing of telling “lies” (his word) include both Zullo and Gallups:
PPSIMMONS offered this quotation from Zullo himself on June 5, 2013:
And Gallups (in his own voice) said on PPSIMMONS August 2, 2013:
HistorianDude
September 27, 2015
“For those paying attention, the people that Hayes is accusing of telling “lies” (his word) include both Zullo and Gallups:”
Listen up Birthers! It looks like you’ve been told some tall yarns by the pretend pastor and the pretend cop. And Falcon, even you should be able to see you’ve been taken for a ride.
Carl Orcas,
“As far as e-mails are concerned he better not have disposed of any since this case began. That will make the judge very unhappy.
On the subject of e-mails you have indicated that you were in communication with Zullo which raises the delightful possibility that (if true) your e-mails will be revealed for all to ponder.”
Carl, you’re good, you’re really good. Poor John is in for a surprise.
I never suggested that Zullo wouldn’t be required to produce it. What I suggested is that he could be allowed to produce it under seal, so that only the judge and the parties to the lawsuit would be able to see it.
I also didn’t suggest that copyright and trade secrets are the same. I was saying that the process for protecting copyrighted but unpublished material from being exposed to the public would be similar to the process for protecting trade secrets. . For example, let’s say that I write a novel and submit it to a publisher. The publisher rejects it, but a year later publishes a novel which is very similar to my manuscript. I sue the publisher for copyright infringement. I am going to have to produce my manuscript as evidence, but since my manuscript has never been published I might ask the court to keep it under seal so that it is not made available to the public for free.
That may be the dumbest thing you have ever written.
You’re too clever by half, john.
First, it’s not up to Zullo if he “wants to go for his depo”. The court has ordered him to do it. Again, if he doesn’t show up the judge will not be happy.
As far as your “tips”…..what is there to say? They’re stupid.
Something tells me you’ve never sat for a deposition.
In so many ways!
Sounds like he’s been reading “Depositions for Idiots”.
Interesting statement by Reed Hayes
“I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be, “the nation’s foremost document examiner” as some are touting. ”
The “nation’s foremost document examiner” is a direct quote from Carl Gallups.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PJDrbc2psaE
@3:20 mark. This snippet was e-mailed to Hayes back in July, 2014.
Someone contacted Reed Hayes and received the following interesting response
Dear Mr. Kxxxxx,
I did in fact perform work for Mr. Zullo with respect to the Obama Certificate of Live Birth. However, the results are strictly confidential, to be released only by Mr. Zullo and/or the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office Cold Case Posse, the legal owners of my report. Please contact Mr. Zullo directly for answers to your questions.
Sincerely,
Reed Hayes
Reed Hayes, CDE
https://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2013/06/04/reed-hayer-email-2/
You sound pretty nervous there, john. I’ve seen you post some desperate stuff, but that wall of text was by far the most frantic. Whats the matter, john? I thought birthers wanted the truth to come out!
The unanswered question: Who paid Mr. Hayes?
Hasn’t Zullo said something about paying for it himself?
Next question for Zullo: If true, where did you get the money?
Maybe john can find out for us.
How lucky for john.
(Yes, I know how to spell “dunce”. It helped me find a picture of john at school:
http://comenius.balfronhigh.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/dunce_punishment-300×225.jpg
john, if you’ve been communicating as much as you claim with Zullo, I’ve got a tip for you…
Get a good lawyer.
He’s already working on that “really really dumb person” strategy. Been working on it mighty hard.
When something is not qualified, e.g. “elected official”, it must apply to any elected official. Obama is included.
Yes, Arpaio’s investigation of the birth certificate was outside his jurisdiction. We all knew that from the beginning. However, Arpaio and Zullo are within the court’s jurisdiction, so if ordered, they must produce the documents and communications requested.
The strong presumption is that court documents are public. I doubt Zullo would prevail if he tries to file it under seal.
Hayes, on his web site, states that he looked at a PDF provided by Zullo. Hayes doesn’t even know if the document he looked at is what Obama released.
My opinion is that the Hayes report is the same stupid PDF ignorance we see from the birthers. What are the chances that Hayes knows anything about MRC compression and JBIG2? Pretty damn small.
Most excellent advice, john. When are you going into business as a Legal Testimony Strategy Consultant? What are your rates?
Hawaii illegally, according to Griselda, sold a blank form for me to fill in the blanks as I saw fit. When this is proven to be the forgery that it is, Hawaii knows that it’s got, “some ‘xplaining to do.” In other words, damned if they do and damned if they don’t.
I suspect its a lot of bluster on john’s part, to try and sound important, but it would be funny if Zullo ends up taking him down with him, wouldn’t it?
The question is, “What was the document(s) that Reed Hayes worked on in 1991?”
In a criminal trial, the defendant has the absolute right to remain silent. He doesn’t have to do a thing. The burden is completely on the prosecution. In a civil trial, the defendent doesn’t get that right. He can forced to testify against himself. Depositions are critical piece of legal litigation as they allow the other side to impeach and discredit. You certainly don’t want to make it easy for the other side. If impeachment or discredit is going to take place, it aint happening in a depo if you can help it.
I wouldn’t put much stock in what Griselda said. It would seem to me to be much simpler, and less risky, to get a form from the printer, or just hire a printer to make one. Or easiest of all, bribe a clerk at the hospital to grab one.
What would “good luck” look like?
Arpaio resigning?
Zullo isn’t the defendant, Shurfjoke is. And I wouldn’t doubt for a second that Zullo would sell out a man who he has no actual allegiance to. Arpaio is the big fish getting fried here, not some porn star mustached car salesman.
It sounds like john presumes that Inspector Zoulleau has acted illegally or at least improperly. Which is, I think, a pretty fair assumption.
That may prove to be the case. I’m not making any predictions, I’m just musing about what Zullo might try to do.
I agree that the Hayes report is relevant to the Melendres case because it goes to Arpaio’s state of mind about his uses his office to attack people he regards as his enemies.
Hawai’i has already done its ‘xplaining’.
Hawai’i has explained that President Obama was born in Honolulu Hawai’i in August of 1961.
There is no other explanation necessary.
A witness can take the Fifth Amendment in a civil case.
The difference is that a jury in a civil case are allowed to make negative inferences if a witness takes the Fifth.
Zullo’s deposition may be universe-shattering, but not in the way he intended.
Copyright means I can’t publish the report or otherwise use it for gain or free distribution. Trade secret or proprietary information is protected and might be held under seal. That was the claim about the 51 hard drives. If I was to start singing a song by the Who and collecting money for it, I would be soon getting a letter in the mail about copyright violation even though the song and music have been generally known for years. Judge Snow will not harm Zullo’s pot of gold by declining to seal the report. Zullo will still have the exclusive right to publish it. If it is misrepresented, then Mr. Hayes could have a claim against Zullo. I can guess that the largest issue for Zullo is that the report in not what he has claimed it to be.
I am still not a lawyer, but I do believe that things produced in discovery are not exactly filed. They do not go on the docket. They are, at that point, not part of the public record. They are provided to the lawyers who subpoenaed them, who can use them as evidence. Only the parts used as evidence become part of the public record (unless, as noted above, they are sealed).
So even if the Reed report winds up in a discovery dump, it will only be in the public record if the ACLU uses it as evidence.
I don’t know what that report would be evidence of in this case. But, on the other hand, if it is used as evidence, I don’t see any argument for sealing it. “Copyright” is certainly not an argument for sealing anything.
But it’s not: it’s routine for them to rationalize the lack of release by postulating some sort of Perry Mason moment where the Shocking Truth™ is revealed only in the last minutes of the trial. They think showing the evidence is equivalent to showing your poker hand to your opponents.
I think there was something like that quite recently, but he and Gallups had been pushing the notion that it was “complete” and “irrefutable” for a long time. I.e., that Zullo was working on something that was an addition to, not a replacement for, the BC “case”.
That’s been true of everything Zullo has released. CCP “evidence” is like an alkali metal: it catches fire and burns anyone holding it as soon as it’s exposed to the open air. Zullo has learned that the promise of future evidence brings in more suckers, and more money, than the actual article.
Dave, you are correct. Typically, 95%-plus of what is produced in a case never gets filed on the docket.
I’m not sure why the ACLU would want to use the report itself. I believe that the ACLU seeks this information generally for the *communications* between the principals (as that may show intent/state of mind, etc. as well as internal concerns re: validity of material and/or lack of care about validity of material).
I think they’re far more interested in the work product related to Montgomery (or some possible as-yet-unknown investigation requested by Arpaio) than the CCP birther work product.
But, as with many things, time will tell….
You may be right. The ACLU does not know where the information is. They have to find it and Arpaio is certainly not going to tell them were to look. To get all that they are asking would require subpoenas to private email server companies, the raiding of home personal PCs and other devices, and raiding of potential safes, vaults, saftey deposit boxes and other hiding places where Arpaio and company might hide things. Sure, they can ask for anything they want but Arpaio and company can easily tell them that the stuff is gone. Unless, they know Arpaio’s hiding spots, they are not going to know where to look. Who knows, Reed Haye’s report might in Carl Gallup’s personal safe???? Of course Zullo aint going to share that information and there is no way for the ACLU to know that unless they subpoena Carl Gallup.
If it is subject to discovery, and Arpaio knows where it is, he damn well better tell them where to look.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/rule_37
This isn’t a game, john. It isn’t “hide and seek”.
It’s produce what you’re ordered to produce or have a hell of a good explanation why you can’t or you are going to jail for contempt. Real simple.
John, raids do not occur in civil actions.
You have frequently suggested that Arpaio can respond to subpoenas by saying he doesn’t have the evidence, or destroying it. Of course he can, but like with any other violation of the law, there are penalties if he gets caught.
HistorianDude – interestingly, in response to a subpoena, he does not have to tell them the location of evidence he does not possess. But in response to an interrogatory (or deposition), he does.
As usual, you are wrong again.
If Zullo fails to produce the Hayes report because he claims that he no longer has it, and he is asked where it is, he will have to “share that information.” Otherwise he will be held in contempt of court.
This isn’t elementary school. “My dog ate the report” isn’t going to fly.
I don’t know what was in the other subpoenas, but I would expect that they all read about the same way. If that is the case, the ACLU might hope to uncover other malicious investigations that never came to fruition. The purpose to prove a pattern of conduct.
John
“Who knows, Reed Haye’s report might in Carl Gallup’s personal safe???? Of course Zullo aint going to share that information and there is no way for the ACLU to know that unless they subpoena Carl Gallup.”
Who knows? Well anyone who has listened to Carl Gallups over the years, knows that they have claimed that all of their Universe Shattering information has been dispersed to others for safe keeping just in case something happens to Zullo or Arpaio. Well guess what John, something has been happening to Joe Arpaio and something will be happening to Mikey very soon in U.S. District Court. I would think those people who are hiding evidence from a federal court would soon have second thoughts. I mean, do you really want to be an accomplice in this legal disaster?
Speaking of elementary school. Here’s a question for those of us who finished high school:
Is john for real or is he he just dense……….or is he putting us (and himself?) on?
There have been times when I thought it was game with him but he’s been doing it so long, so consistently that I am beginning to think he really believes what he posts.
Scary.
Exactly. In a civil case the test is the “preponderance of the evidence” as opposed to “beyond a reasonable doubt” in a criminal case (where we may be going soon enough) and Arpaio’s “pattern of conduct” over the last couple decades is painfully clear.
It all adds up and makes for a very ugly picture.
But limiting the time frame to the last few years means they won’t get a lot of documents that would hep prove a pattern, because most (all?) of the other such investigations happened earlier. Did they pick that date because it limits the subpoenas to instances possibly related to Melendres?
I suspect the “all elected officials” clause is to keep them from weaseling with a claim like “We were actually investigating Holder, and info about Snow just happened to get snagged in the net”. They’ve already tried that with the claim that they were only looking for info about hacked Maricopa County residents.
As for the claim they could avoid the subpoena by handing stuff over to someone else, I’m sure the lawyers have experience with others trying that dodge. The subpoena says:
Its hard to tell. Some of what he posts smacks of trolling, but on the other hand, I’ve actually met people who are that impossibly stupid.
A small but telling point about what Reed Hayes wrote was that the pdf file that he examined was provided to him by ZULLO and was not the file on the White House website. So, if it were forged, ZULLO could have done it.
Hayes says that he was informed (apparently by Zullo) that the pdf that Zullo provided was the same as on the White House Web site, but that obviously could be a lie. And so by not going to the White House web site and downloading the pdf himself and relying on what ZULLO gave him, Reed Hayes has made the conclusion that what he examined is a forgery point to the person who provided the pdf file to Hayes and not to Obama. And the person who provided the pdf file to Hayes was ZULLO.
Hayes goes to great lenghts to defend his “impartiality”, but some of his wording is pretty telling:
“Absent the Department of Health’s willingness to allow an examination of the original, there is no way to prove if the document I examined is a proper duplicate of same.”
Well, the DOH complies with the *law*. It is not up to them to decide whether to “allow” an examination – they would have to be ordered by a court to allow it.
Hayes is still playing the “they are hiding something” game – even if 99% of his screed deny it, claims like the above reveal what he actually thinks.
The disclaimer that Hayes concocted for his website shows he is not very bright. There is no precision in his writing, none of the care and attention to detail that one would wish for in someone evaluating evidence for a court. As you say, he refers to the PDF released by the White House when actually he should be referring to the PDF given to him by Zullo the Klown.
And then (sorry Magic M) he refers to obtaining permission from the Hawai’i Department of Health to examine the original, but that ISN’T the original for the PDF. The original for the PDF is the paper document with the raised seal that Savannah Guthrie held and photographed at a White House press conference.
But the Hawai’i Department of Health has verified the information in the document, so whether it is forged or not is irrelevant; little Barack Obama was born in Hawai’i. And Congress has ratified Mr. Obama’s election to be President, twice.
A question for the attorneys on the board. Do the Sheriff’s Kits provided by Mike Volin to members of congress and the public fall under the control of the subpoena? (Arpaio endorsement, Zullo affidavit, press conference information etc.) Does Korporal Zullo need to provide this item to the plaintiffs?
I don’t know how she got it. I was doing the background research to find a child that had my brother’s birth date. I never did. The closest I could find was off by one day. I never dreamed that this fake birth certificate would pass CIA scrutiny.
this point i found incredibly bizarre. what possible reason could hayes have for NOT going to the WH house website and directly downloading a copy to compare against what zullo provided?
I guess you just lack imagination, Nancy.
And it does appear that one is able to increase one’s stupidity through constant exercise.
With Grobechev literally whizzing on American soil and gathering local residents to do his killings, I just assumed somebody somewhere would put a stop to the whole thing. Reagan was a no-show as usual. As they say, “If you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself.” And, I did.
The one question I have is, “Who took credit for the Gorbechev murder of 1982?” You can be certain they took me out of the loop as they always do. I’m sure it was the Bush’s since they began murdering off as many of the witnesses as they could including at least one attempt on my life as recorded by the Hendry County Florida Sheriff’s Department. This was around the time that Oliver North was in the fields so he might have been tossed under the bus as well.
Gorbachev is dead? Anyone tell him?
I think that was simply an illustration of Nancy’s imagination.
Not one to take a challenge lying down, that Nancy.
Gorbachev is still alive you’d think after all this time you’d learn to spell his name.
Was this before or after you looked in the bible or before or after you claimed you got the family name from someone who lived there? Was this before or after you claimed you were creating it to get Obama into college? Was this before or after you said you put your signature on the short form? Was this before or after you claimed Reagan was involved?
The fact that it’s on his website *at all* should raise questions about his credibility and good sense. It’s a professional website, intended to market his services as a forensic expert. No one outside of a small circle of devoted Birthers and anti-Birthers know he has a connection to Birtherism.
And yet he’s chosen to highlight that connection via a prominent link on the front page of his website. Moreover, anyone who reads the linked page will find him openly entertaining widely-ridiculed conspiracy theory notions.
If he’s tired of getting e-mails asking for comment, the smarter thing would be to have a stock reply to send back. Because posting it for the world to see only serves to tell THE ENTIRE WORLD that he’s open, albeit noncommittal, to some seriously crackpot ideas. And that’s just not good for business.
Imagine, for instance, that Hayes gets hired as an expert in a court case, and he determines that some document might be forged. When he offers his expert testimony, the cross-examining attorney can have a field day: “Mr. Hayes, isn’t it true that you ALSO think the President’s birth certificate might be forged? You don’t recall? Well, let me refer you to this page you wrote on your website…”
IANAL, but I think the subpoena does not cover the Sheriff’s Kit because (as I understand it), it was not developed at the behest of Sheriff Arpaio or the MCSO.
That said, the CONTENTS of the Sheriff’s Kit, which largely consists of Cold Case Posse work products (press conference, Zebest report, Alabama affidavit) would be subject to subpoena.
“Grobachev” got over 5000 hits on Google.
If I had to guess, Hayes is probably regretting the day he took the bait and slapped the birthers’ tar baby.
The start date relates the issuance of the preliminary injunction by Judge Snow to stop detaining illegal immigrants, what the contempt case is about. It is unfortunate that the date isn’t earlier because then we could get a look at the Donahoe investigation and that of members of the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors. There was that animal abuse case that should be covered, involving a member of Sen. Jeff Flake’s family.
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2015/06/new-lawsuit-alleges-arpaio-retaliation-against-birther-critics-family/
As far as Obama BC commentary on Hayes’ web site showing a lack of good sense, I would have to clearly disagree with Loren on this one.
On the contrary, I think it’s a good move.
Why? If anyone wants to hire someone, the very FIRST thing they’re going to do is google that person’s name.
If you google “reed hayes,” all of the first-page results zero in accurately on this particular Mr. Hayes. No less than 7 out of 10 results are articles talking about Hayes’ opinion on Obama’s birth certificate (including an article by RC, titled “Did Reed Hayes Violate the NADE Code of Ethics?”)
Hayes is inextricably stuck to the birther tar baby. About the best he can do at this point is to qualify and distance himself to whatever extent he can. And he can only do that by printing some form of qualifying commentary on the matter. His web site is the obvious and reliable place to do that.
Nobody has, because Gorbachev is still alive. Here is is giving a speech, nine years after you claim that you killed him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-_Fh-IyNmo
Except that everything that *other* people have written about Hayes is complete hearsay and would be inadmissible. It’s hard to attack his credibility during cross-examination using comments made by Mike Zullo.
But now Hayes has gone and provided a first-hand description of his ‘findings’, posted to his own website. And rather than try his hardest to *distance* himself from Birtherism, he ultimately concludes that the long-form “may be a manufactured document or perhaps even an outright forgery,” which is essentially the same position taken by Joseph Farah and Jerome Corsi.
Heck, at the very least, he could’ve posted an explanation to his website that would be found by Google searches, but wouldn’t be spotlighted on his website. Instead, he links to it even above the pages for ‘Fees’ and ‘Services’, so that even people who are visiting his site for purely professional reasons can immediately react “Obama’s Birth Certificate? Why does he have a page about THAT?” So even the most naive of visitors can conclude “Oh, this guy may not be nearly as credible as his resume suggests.”
That one’s a softy….like Reagan. He’s not the real “Grobechev” who received a bullet to the head. Tell ’em Mickey V.
Having read the Zullo subpoena again, I’m wondering if the ACLU is specifically targeting Zullo’s birther “investigation.” What elected official other than Obama has been the subject of an Arpaio investigation since December, 2011? I can’t think of anyone, and I’m sure that the ACLU is well aware of what Zullo has been up to.
In any event, Zullo has about 48 hours to produce the subpoenaed documents.
What does a Russian head of state have to do with this website and any of it’s subjects? Absolutely NOTHING!
Rickey,
“In any event, Zullo has about 48 hours to produce the subpoenaed documents.”
Tick-tock, Mikey. Prepare to meet Cecillia Wang & Co.
Arpaio investigated members of the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors, judges and other local officials (too many to remember of the top of my head) and, of course, there is no doubt he was investigating the President.
Check the New Times site. They have a section that includes a compilation of all their coverage for past 20+ years. It’s mind boggling.
It’s what you might call a “pattern of behavior.”
I wouldn’t think Hayes has any kind of reference to legal proceedings in connection to Obama’s birth certificate, or expects to be called as any kind of witness.
So it’s simply a business decision. In that event, he has nothing to lose, as anyone who googles his name is going to see the birther tar all over him.
Indeed. A “pattern” big enough to see from outer space.
Yes, but didn’t those investigations take place prior to 12/23/11? And I’m not aware of Zullo having any involvement in any of those activities.
Grobechev? You continue to get his name wrong every time. You’re not the real Nancy Ruth Owens she overdosed on heroine many years ago
I think you’re right…..back in 2010 or 2009.
And yet, many Maricopa County residents (many of them taxpayers) can’t seem to figure this out. It makes me afraid to even share the roads with them, which is why I mostly drive when many of them are asleep.
Local Maricopa County politics is quite interesting, but unless you live here you probably are not aware of it: http://www.azcentral.com/story/laurieroberts/2015/04/24/joe-arpaio-contempt-hearing/26316123/
This link I just placed here will give you a pretty good idea what Joe’s been up to in Arizona. He’s cost this county so far several millions of dollars to cover for his nasty games.
His antics also caused the disbarring of a local county attorney who was helping him in his witch hunt. (Google Andrew Thomas).
Or you can read this: http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/andrew-thomas-and-lisa-aubuchon-disbarred-read-panels-opinion-here-6651303
Sorry Carl Orcas, I quoted you instead of the the appropriate party (Rickey). My apologies.
True that these happened prior to 2011. I misunderstood that. sorry.
Arpaio has been busy though. His office even has it’s own Wikipedia page for controversies of the MCSO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maricopa_County_Sheriff%27s_Office_controversies
No, no… that’s the guy she’s talking about – Grobechev. Michael Grobechev. He was the server at the soup kitchen just near Miami’s South Beach where she used to go to dream about all things orgasmic while she watched him glide behind the counter with a wink for her every time he gave another bag lady her piece of white bread and a spoon. She knew he was just teasing her, but when she found out he was camp as a row of tents, she just lost her cool.
So who do you think she’s talking about? The former First Secretary of the Communist Party in the Soviet Union? That’s just silly – he’s still alive.
I lived in Glendale (in the vicinity of 59th Avenue and Thunderbird) from 1977 to 1981, so I still pay some attention to the news out of Arizona. Of course, the sheriff’s office was a very different animal when I lived there. I’m not sure that I even knew the sheriff’s name (I just looked it up, the sheriff was Jerry Hill).
Anyway, my point is that the Zullo subpoena calls for production of documents going back only as far as 12/23/11, so it does not cover misdeeds by Arpaio prior to that date.
That’s funny. The DMV just issued me a new license. I must have scared the bee-gee-bees out of them being dead and all. Although I have to say, a claim of death might explain a few things. Like, why haven’t I been issued a subpoena for deposition?
Ohhh….did Mikey Zullo write a report claiming that I was dead?! Insurance fraud was a big thing back then. Especially for the Hendry County Sheriff, Sermon Dyess, Jr. who taught a few other people how to do the same with his offical reports backing them up…..until he was caught for protecting the Medellin Cartel….and sent to prison…..where they let him out after only four years….when it was supposed to have been seventeen……and then he tried to molest my daughter…..and kill some of my friends who had testified against him…..and then I had to kill him.
Big deal. Sermon Dyess has a Florida driver’s license and he is registered to vote in Hendry County, yet you claim that you killed him years ago.
He also was issued a Florida real estate license on 1/7/05.
So what does your driver’s license prove?
I applied for credit once and was denied. When I asked for the reason, the reply was that I was deceased.
In South Carolina they used to issue a wallet-sized birth certificate. I wondered if I could get a wallet-sized death certificate. Seniors get good deals on hotel rooms. Just think of the discount you could get if you were dead!
That you are most likely lying since Dyess got a bullet right between the eyes in the late nineties right beside Abel Danger who was a party to the attempted murder of Timmy Ledbetter. You’re probably referring to his son or nephew.
I had a pal whose dead grandfather was summoned to jury duty, because he was buried in a cemetery that had little streets, and the mausoleums had addresses.
My pal called up the court clerk and asked what to do. The clerk said, “Oh, bring your grandfather in and show us that he’s dead.”
My pal digested that, and then said, “That’ll take a couple of weeks…I’ll have to get some estimates from excavating companies, load him in a hearse, and get his remains embalmed.”
The clerk gulped, and said, “Why do you have to do that?”
My pal didn’t waste a second. “Well, you told me to bring him in, and he’s been dead for seven years. So I don’t think he can answer your questions.”
The flustered clerk told my pal to simply bring in his death certificate. Too bad. That would have been one perfect grand juror. He wouldn’t have asked a question or given out a piece of information to anybody.
Nope. Earl Sermon Dyess Jr.,born in 1941, is alive and well in Clewiston. He has a valid Florida driver’s license which expires in 2019. He last renewed it on 5/23/11.
Earl Sermon Dyess III was born in 1965.
However, I was mistaken about Jr.’s voter registration. In Florida a convicted felon cannot vote unless the governor issues a pardon. It is Dyess III who is registered to vote.
So if Dyess Jr. is dead and there is a valid Florida driver’s license in his name, how do we know that Nancy Ruth Owens is alive?
On the Hayes website:
“My report also makes it clear that I suspect the document released by the White House may be a fabricated document intended to bring down President Obama.”
I wonder if that’s why Zullo won’t release it. To batsh_t crazy even for him.
Is it possible that the whole unfruitful Montgomery investigation would have stayed hidden if Zoolow had not been running his mouth on Gallups’ show?
I understand that someone in the MCSO ratted Arpaio out to Stephen Lemons at the Phoenix New Times.
Well, it’s a teensy bit less crazy than the notion that there is a vast conspiracy to hide Kenyan birth. That someone in the DOH (a single person) cooked up an intentionally fake-looking document (identical to the real BC in content but with “anomalies” that make it look like a forgery) to damage Obama requires only 1 or 2 conspirators, not thousands of lawyers and politicians and journalists and…
Nope. He’s dead. There’s no way he could have survived that shot.
Yes the non existent one you made. Oh wait you’re not really the real Nancy Ruth Owens. She died of an overdose 10 years ago.
Still think Abel Danger is a person? I heard Dyess killed Nancy Ruth Owens in the early 2000s and made it look like she overdosed.
How does anyone know that? No one has ever seen your license. Dyess got issued a new license as well. Why do you think anyone would subpoena a crazy person who spins stories about people she’s never met?
Insurance fraud was big in early 2000s when the real nancy owens overdosed?
Who are these supposed friends of yours who were almost killed?
Nancy. I think you have too much time on your hands.
The Red Cross in Kissimmee is looking for volunteers to man their front desk. Their phone number is 407-846-6748.
Please. Get out of the house. Go do something useful. I’m serious. You’ll feel happier.
If you don’t like the Red Cross, I’ll help you find something else.
I’m working on my Obama birth certificate forgeries affidavit since the other one was not sufficient. It parallels the book I’m writing as well. That’s why you don’t see me mass posting on the internet as I was doing before.
The first one looks like a middle school child could have written it. I was in a hurry and thought that a one line confession would suffice.
Thanks for the info anyway.
DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!
I already told you,Timmy Ledbetter. My old license is on my Facebook page. You’ll have to dig for it. I’m working.
Once I’m nearing completion, I’ll be posting it on my OneDrive and Scribd. Send me your email to nancyruthowens@outlook.com if you want an invite. It won’t be anytime too soon. Probably within the next three weeks.
Nancy, I would venture to suggest that the time might be better spent helping out at the Red Cross or some charity of your choice.
I think ultimately you’ll get more out of it. Just a suggestion.
I can’t wait to see the book, myself…I have a working title: “My Three-and-a-Half Year Struggle Against Lies, Stupidity, and Cowardice.” Alert readers will get the gag.
Getting back on topic, it now appears that the Reed Hayes report will not be subject to subpoena, because the commencement date for the subpoenaed documents is now 9/1/13 rather than 12/23/11. Of course, that doesn’t rule out the possibility that the Hayes report was mentioned in e-mails since 9/1/13.
Too bad. As I commented above, however, I think we have a very good idea what it says. Something rather like:
How do we know you’re not spamming your nonsense elsewhere? So you’re saying you’re just spamming it here?
Who is Timmy Ledbetter? Another person you supposedly killed? Nope not on facebook. An image online isn’t a driver’s license.
I would venture to say that her time would be better spent in a mental facility. That is truly where she belongs. Mentally stable people don’t go around admitting to killing other people (and especially so many, and several of them police authorities – the woman is completely unhinged.)
You could well be right. I’m not a psychologist, though. Nor do I live close to Nancy, or have any kind of relationship to her other than chat through the keyboard at a significant geographical distance.
One could always advise her to talk to a psychologist or other counselor, but it seems to me that a) such advice coming from a stranger is likely to go unheeded, and b) hopefully there are people in her life who can steer her to the right place if such services are needed.
From my observation, unless there’s really good reason (like being a danger to one’s self or others) people don’t spend ongoing periods of time these days in mental facilities. It seems to me that promoting her stories gives Nancy a sense of significance. The reason I suggested volunteering to her is that I think volunteering is something that really IS significant and thus could be healthy for her.
People also need social and emotional support from others. It seems to me that at a minimum Nancy needs a better social support network. If I lived in her area I’d probably try and steer her towards a good church or some similar social network. Unfortunately, I don’t know anything about churches in Osceola County, FL.
Admiral General Zullo could go full birfoon and say he doesn’t need to produce any of his docs on Obama because Obama is not really the President and therefore not an elected official. That might work until the first morning in jail for contempt. 🙂
And yet, you don’t question the crooked sheriff’s role in all of this and how he was able to get away with it for so many years. Why won’t they admit that Pablo Escobar lived freely on American soil and that he catered to America’s enemies throughout the world, including Grobechev and the Castros.
Reagan was no hero despite all of the BS rhetoric that they try to push on us.
Reagan In. Castro Up.
Er, I’m pretty sure Castro was “up” before Reagan ever arrived on the scene.
Or he could go full sovcit wingnut and claim the court has no jurisdiction over him, plus it’s using a fringed flag.
Another option would be to flee to the Ecuadorian embassy, together with Montgomery, and declare themselves the second coming of Snowden and Assange.