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Zero to forty in fifteen

In fifteen minutes Mike Zullo pled the 5th Amendment 40 times yesterday. BOTG reports that Zullo arrived in court around 4:45 and sat uncomfortably in the witness chair, but expressionlessly answered every question with an invocation of his right against self incrimination.

Stephen Lemons who was also there quotes Zullo as saying after court that it was all about “due process.”

Zullo is back in court Thursday morning.

I thought that Judge Snow might order Zullo to answer some questions, but this has not happened so far.

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45 Responses to Zero to forty in fifteen

  1. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) November 11, 2015 at 9:34 am #

    Zullobot, aka Mike “the Fifth” Zolus, strikes again.

    I guess Snow does not want to waste time wrestling answers out of Zullo but instead prefers to just draw adverse inferences and let Arpaio and Zullo roshambo* any details between themselves. 😉

    _________
    * (German dub: “ausrambolen” which alludes to “Rambo” as well als “bowlen” = “to bowl”.)

  2. avatar
    bob November 11, 2015 at 1:48 pm #

    Lemons’ latest.

  3. avatar
    bgansel9 November 11, 2015 at 2:07 pm #

    bob: Lemons’ latest.

    Obviously, if a movie were to be made about this sometime in the future, Montgomery would have to be played by John Lithgow.

  4. avatar
    Jim November 11, 2015 at 3:03 pm #

    Well, if you’re going to make a movie about this mess, it would have to be a cartoon.

    Arpaio – Mr McGoo
    Sheridan – Donald Duck
    Zullo – Inspector Clousseau
    Montgomery – Spy vs. Spy (playing both sides of the con)

    I’ll have to think about the rest of the cast of characters

  5. avatar
    Dave B. November 11, 2015 at 3:11 pm #

    Zullo looks so sad in that picture. Life was not supposed to be like this.

    bob:
    Lemons’ latest.

  6. avatar
    tes November 11, 2015 at 5:21 pm #

    Per Cassidy, ““I’m taking the Fifth, sir,” [Zullo] replied, time and again, at times resting his head on his fist.” Megan Cassidy, Arpaio’s Posseman Pleads The Fifth In Contempt Hearing, Arizona Republic, Nov. 10, 2015.

  7. avatar
    RanTalbott November 11, 2015 at 10:02 pm #

    Question for the lawyers: If Zullo pleads the 5th, and it’s later determined that he wasn’t really trying to avoid self-incrimination (e.g., the answers would merely have been embarrassing, or would have implicated Arpaio in a way that didn’t also incriminate him), can he be charged with perjury and/or obstruction?

    Obviously, there has to be some leeway for a witness who’s mistaken about self-incrimination, but I noticed one of the gerbils cheering the response as being a kind of “F you, Judge!” defiance. It seems to me that that sort of intentional misuse of privilege should be actionable.

  8. avatar
    Sam the Centipede November 12, 2015 at 4:41 am #

    RanTalbott:
    Question for the lawyers: If Zullo pleads the 5th, and it’s later determined that he wasn’t really trying to avoid self-incrimination (e.g., the answers would merely have been embarrassing, or would have implicated Arpaio in a way that didn’t also incriminate him), can he be charged with perjury and/or obstruction?

    Obviously, there has to be some leeway for a witness who’s mistaken about self-incrimination, but I noticed one of the gerbils cheering the response as being a kind of “F you, Judge!” defiance. It seems to me that that sort of intentional misuse of privilege should be actionable.

    I’m no lawyer but I do understand that Zullo’s 5th Amendment rights as a deponent are not the same as those of a defendant in a criminal trial (who can refuse to take the stand, but must answer all permissible questions once on the stand and testifying) or of anyone interviewed by law enforcement (“you have tyhe right to remain silent…”).

    Zullo cannot simply invoke his right on a question by question basis but ultimately the decision about whether he must answer is made by the judge, who gets involved if the questioning attorney(s) want the answer badly enough. If Zullo continues to refuse to answer, he is then in contempt of court and risking serious pain for himself.

    There was a hint that Zullo might be considering answering the defense’s questions more fully when they depose him, but that would allow the other parties to object and the judge would make it clear to Zullo that if he answers to the defense he must answer similar questions from other interrogators.

    But the prosecution might be happy enough to have a record of the questions that Zullo refused to answer. That record possibly could be used to draw adverse inferences, but that’s not completely clear (because this matter is about contempt: it’s not a routine civil or criminal trial).

    Zullo isn’t the biggest fish, but the Department of Justice seem to be interested in him and his (mis)deeds, which is unlikely to be to Zullo’s benefit.

    IANAL, so I might have some of the above wrong – mostly it’s based on what Fogbow lawyers say.

  9. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) November 12, 2015 at 4:59 am #

    RanTalbott: If Zullo pleads the 5th, and it’s later determined that he wasn’t really trying to avoid self-incrimination (e.g., the answers would merely have been embarrassing, or would have implicated Arpaio in a way that didn’t also incriminate him)

    I think Zullo’s claim is (whether honestly or not, I cannot say) that he does not want to risk anything without a lawyer, and that he fears answering some questions might be construed as a waiver of the Fifth (for which I don’t know what the rules in US law are).
    However I don’t think Snow will have much patience if Zullo keeps not having a lawyer. At some point, that becomes Zullo’s problem, not the court’s.

  10. avatar
    Curious George November 12, 2015 at 5:45 am #

    The Birthers over at BR are so ignorant and so rabidly delusional thinking that what is happening in federal court in Phoenix is some grand master plan concocted by used car salesman Mikey, to save A/Z Day and thus the country. If today comes together the same way that it did in 15 minutes on Tuesday, Mikey with his confident, used car salesman smirk is in for a surprise. Judge Snow may have some very probing questions that Mikey may be encouraged to answer. Watch out for the landmines Mikey!

  11. avatar
    RanTalbott November 12, 2015 at 6:33 am #

    The Magic M (not logged in): he does not want to risk anything without a lawyer, and that he fears answering some questions might be construed as a waiver of the Fifth

    Makes sense. I’d probably be thinking much the same thing in his position.

    He might not even need a lawyer long-term, but he needs one for a consultation to tell him that (or not that, as the case may be).

    One would think that, with all Arpaio’s alleged friends and supporters, someone would be willing to sit down for a half-hour for a $1 fee, and tell Zullo what his risks really are. Where are all the lawyers who donated big bucks to Arpaio’s campaign?

    Arpaio, himself, ought to be willing to pry a few hundred out of his legal defense fund to get someone to help keep Zullo from turning into an unguided missile on the stand.

  12. avatar
    Curious George November 12, 2015 at 10:04 am #

    This report is absolutely amazingly poor. And these are the cops that go after the “really bad guys.”

    http://images.phoenixnewtimes.com/media/pdf/macreport.pdf

  13. avatar
    Jim November 12, 2015 at 10:20 am #

    Curious George:
    This report is absolutely amazingly poor. And these are the cops that go after the “really bad guys.”

    We are talking about the MCSO…the “really bad guys” are anyone who Joe doesn’t like. Not a lot of investigation necessary.

  14. avatar
    Pete November 12, 2015 at 10:20 am #

    It seems to me that incompetence at the top tends to attract, or grow, incompetence at all levels of an organization.

    And yeah, when you don’t really seem to care that much about investigating hundreds of sex crimes, including sex crimes against children, that seems to say something about your definition of “bad guys.”

  15. avatar
    CarlOrcas November 12, 2015 at 11:48 am #

    Curious George:
    This report is absolutely amazingly poor. And these are the cops that go after the “really bad guys.”

    http://images.phoenixnewtimes.com/media/pdf/macreport.pdf

    You are too polite.

    If the September 2014 date is when it was written it looks like a class CYA memo written after the fact……poorly written in fact.

  16. avatar
    wrecking ball November 12, 2015 at 12:03 pm #

    so, arpaio’s attorneys are claiming attorney-client privilege with zullo but that they DON’T have an attorney-client relationship with zullo!?!!?

  17. avatar
    Dave B. November 12, 2015 at 12:46 pm #

    The part that cracked me up is where Zullo tells Mackiewicz he wants some company on his Hawaii vacation:
    “I agreed with Zullo’s assessment and purposed course of action and relayed the same to Sheriff Joe Arpaio.”

    Curious George:
    This report is absolutely amazingly poor. And these are the cops that go after the “really bad guys.”

    http://images.phoenixnewtimes.com/media/pdf/macreport.pdf

    Okay, this one was funny, too:

    “He discovered Mr. Blixseth was at one time listed on Forbes 400 billionaires. He also discovered he was in a bitter divorce with his estranged wife, Edra Blixseth and was in the middle of a very contagious bankruptcy proceeding. It was estimated Mr. Blixseth lost approximately half of his fortune in the divorce proceedings.”

    Man, if that’s catching, I sure don’t want to get it!

  18. avatar
    Sef November 12, 2015 at 12:59 pm #

    Dave B.: It was estimated Mr. Blixseth lost approximately half of his fortune in the divorce proceedings.

    I guess the pre-nup wasn’t on one of Monty’s hard drives.

  19. avatar
    Dave B. November 12, 2015 at 1:01 pm #

    “During the conversation Blixseth told Zullo he was in contact with a person that had previously worked as a contractor for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) . . . Zullo also learned that Montgomery was arrested in Nevada for failing to pay off a casino marker for approximately one million dollars.”
    Cue Johnny Rivers:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvY3kRWuyIM
    Who’s STILL killing it, by the way:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqOZDoz0dXc

  20. avatar
    bob November 12, 2015 at 1:02 pm #

    Lemons tweets that Zullo invoked the Fifth around 100 times during the first 90 minutes of his testimony.

  21. avatar
    Dave B. November 12, 2015 at 1:27 pm #

    “Investigator Zullo relayed while in route to the Maricopa County Sheriffs Office Headquaters, Blixseth reached into his sock and retrieved three computer thumb drives. Blixseth told Zullo the information on the drives was beyond comprehension and a threat to every American citizen. He also told Zullo, that Montgomery had evidence of tapering on President Obama’ s Birth Certificate.”
    I don’t know nothin’ ’bout no tapering, but if that guy started pulling stuff out of his sock in front of me, I’d want to be somewheres else.

  22. avatar
    roadburner November 12, 2015 at 1:44 pm #

    Dave B.:
    “Investigator Zullo relayed while in route to the Maricopa County Sheriffs Office Headquaters, Blixseth reached into his sock and retrieved three computer thumb drives. Blixseth told Zullo the information on the drives was beyond comprehension and a threat to every American citizen. He also told Zullo, that Montgomery had evidence of tapering on President Obama’ s Birth Certificate.”
    I don’t know nothin’ ’bout no tapering, but if that guy started pulling stuff out of his sock in front of me, I’d want to be somewheres else.

    question – if blixseth flew to AZ, how did the security scanner/detectors not pick up a suspicious collection of objects in his sock?

    sorry, but to me this sounds like it was added for dramatic effect.

  23. avatar
    Dave B. November 12, 2015 at 1:51 pm #

    Yeah, something smells about that.

    roadburner: question – if blixseth flew to AZ, how did the security scanner/detectors not pick up a suspicious collection of objects in his sock?

    sorry, but to me this sounds like it was added for dramatic effect.

  24. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 12, 2015 at 2:20 pm #

    Been there, done that.

    Dave B.: It was estimated Mr. Blixseth lost approximately half of his fortune in the divorce proceedings.”

  25. avatar
    Jim November 12, 2015 at 2:25 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Been there, done that.

    Yeah, but it was worth it. (To me)

  26. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 12, 2015 at 2:26 pm #

    Up to 218 by lunch.

    bob:
    Lemons tweets that Zullo invoked the Fifth around 100 times during the first 90 minutes of his testimony.

  27. avatar
    Dave B. November 12, 2015 at 2:26 pm #

    What I can’t figure out is whether it’s just the bankruptcy proceedings that are “very contagious,” or the divorce, too. Either way, yikes.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Been there, done that.

  28. avatar
    Dave B. November 12, 2015 at 2:28 pm #

    Now there is the case of the little town in New Mexico I used to live in, where one year every woman in town named Kathy got divorced.

  29. avatar
    Rickey November 12, 2015 at 2:31 pm #

    roadburner: question – if blixseth flew to AZ, how did the security scanner/detectors not pick up a suspicious collection of objects in his sock?

    sorry, but to me this sounds like it was added for dramatic effect.

    And why would he feel that there was a necessity to hide his thumb drives? I’m sure that people fly with thumb drives in their briefcases all the time. I’ve never heard of it being a problem.

  30. avatar
    RanTalbott November 12, 2015 at 2:52 pm #

    Curious George: And these are the cops that go after the “really bad guys.”

    Expendable? 😈

    roadburner: question – if blixseth flew to AZ, how did the security scanner/detectors not pick up a suspicious collection of objects in his sock?

    They were special Super Sekrit Spy Drives, in which all the metal has been replaced by plastic to evade scanners.

    Unfortunately, that also makes them write-only, so you should wait for version 2.0 before buying.

    Dave B.: Blixseth told Zullo the information on the drives was beyond comprehension

    Since he was handing them to Zullo, that statement was kinda redundant…

  31. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 12, 2015 at 4:24 pm #

    A group of tweets from Stephen Lemons refer to audio recordings played in court. Including:

    – $7000 in a bag to Lockheed in Los Angeles
    – Montgomery working on Snow stuff
    – Montgomery claimed Mackiewicz profited from overtime
    – Zullo asks Montgomery how to ruin someone with with private information

  32. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 12, 2015 at 4:26 pm #

    Sometimes the most obvious answer is the right one:

    Zullo pleads the 5th because what he could say really is incriminating.

  33. avatar
    Dave B. November 12, 2015 at 5:00 pm #

    I just can’t help imagining it went something like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4xOrG4gic8

    when what he was looking for was more like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrRZVCg31fE

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    A group of tweets from Stephen Lemons refer to audio recordings played in court. Including:

    – Zullo asks Montgomery how to ruin someone with with private information

  34. avatar
    mimi November 12, 2015 at 5:29 pm #

    Stephen Lemons tweets that Zullo exploded on the stand. Started answering questions.

  35. avatar
    CarlOrcas November 12, 2015 at 5:59 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Sometimes the most obvious answer is the right one:

    Zullo pleads the 5th because what he could say really is incriminating.

    I’m beginning to thing you’re right.

    I understand he blew up and started answering questions so I will be interesting to see where this goes.

  36. avatar
    Dave B. November 12, 2015 at 6:49 pm #

    “After about 30 minutes of answering questions Thursday afternoon, Zullo turned to Snow and said, “Your honor, at some point I need to stop answering questions… It’s like I don’t know what I’m doing.””
    http://www.12news.com/story/news/local/valley/2015/11/12/arpaio-posse-leader-erupts-under-oath/75674218/

  37. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 12, 2015 at 6:53 pm #

    And Montgomery replied that you can hack their computer and upload child pornography on it.

    Was this an idle question, or was somebody trying to attack Judge Snow? IIRC, Zullo replied “Oh God!” when this was played for him on the 9th.

    Dr. Conspiracy: – Zullo asks Montgomery how to ruin someone with with private information

  38. avatar
    Pete November 12, 2015 at 7:00 pm #

    mimi: Stephen Lemons tweets that Zullo exploded on the stand.

    Zulloverse shattering!

  39. avatar
    Pete November 12, 2015 at 7:09 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: And Montgomery replied that you can hack their computer and upload child pornography on it.

    Which would obviously be a highly criminal act.

  40. avatar
    Dave B. November 12, 2015 at 7:11 pm #

    You can’t upload what you don’t have. So…

    Pete: Which would obviously be a highly criminal act.

  41. avatar
    justlw November 12, 2015 at 9:21 pm #

    “Blixseth told Zullo he was in contact with a person that had previously worked as a contractor for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)”

    “Blixseth contacted Zullo via phone and provided the name and contact phone number for Dennis Montgomery.”

    In a strange connection, Zullo discovered Mr. Montgomery was a partner in a software development company “Blxware” owned by Edra Blixseth, the estranged wife of Timothy Blixseth.”

    What are the odds!?

  42. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 13, 2015 at 12:47 pm #

    Those who listened to the Reality Check Radio show last night now know where I got the information about the June 2012 meeting between Joe Arpaio, Mike Zullo, Michael Flynn and Tim Blixseth. Another person was present: Brian Reilly.

    Brian said that the meeting was largely about the Blixseth divorce, and covered much of the same ground as the article by Jerome Corsi that appeared at WND just days before. http://www.wnd.com/2012/06/holder-faces-corruption-scandal-too/

    Brian has no recollection of Blixseth talking about Dennis Montgomery at this meeting, although documents revealed in the Melendres case indicate that Blixseth periodically called Zullo about his progress on the birth certificate after that. The WND article does not mention Montgomery.

    Brian was also at the trial yesterday and he reported that Zullo, when asked whether he had met Tim Blixseth prior to October of 2013, after a pregnant pause “looked me straight in the eye and said ‘no’.”

  43. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 13, 2015 at 12:56 pm #

    We may never know the whole story, or the true story. Arpaio didn’t leave much of a paper trail (he doesn’t use a computer), so we only have Arpaio’s word and Zullo’s word as to whether either one of them having Judge Snow investigated. The only other person with first-hand knowledge is Dennis Montgomery, and Montgomery is outside the jurisdiction of the Court in Arizona and cannot be subpoenaed.

    We have an email from Montgomery saying ““MCSO pursued sensitive information against Judge Snow and we both know it. In fact you produced some of it to the DC judge in August,” but Montgomery was a con man and hardly a reliable witness, and not under oath.

  44. avatar
    bob November 13, 2015 at 1:30 pm #

    Montgomery is outside the jurisdiction of the Court in Arizona and cannot be subpoenaed.

    The parties could take Montgomery’s deposition (despite him being out of state); I don’t think anyone thinks he’s worth the effort.