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Looking at Zullo’s press conference more closely

I have one serious weakness when confronting the output from Mike Zullo. I have have an expectation that at some level it is supposed to make sense, and that Zullo doesn’t lie outright. So when Zullo says that two things look alike, I’m going to think that perhaps there is a lack of precision, not that Zullo is just making it up. We know, however, that Zullo does make things up, and does it rather audaciously.

I received an email today challenging Zullo’s claims that things are the same in the Obama birth certificate and the Ah’nee certificate, similarity that is the basis for Zullo’s claim that one was manufactured using parts of the other. I’ve already observed one glaring difference in the supposedly identical images components, but this contributor goes into far more detail. So what follows is an anonymous contribution to the debunking of Mike Zullo’s last fling:


Sheriffs Joe Arpaio, 9 Points Of Forgery, proof that Obamas Birth Certificate is Fake; IS NOT VALID!

I was able to show that 7 of 9 points are false and remaining 2 are only “more likely so than not” proof.

Here is proof that 2 “box square, X and o.” groups on Obamas BC are not copy-pasted (and used twice unchanged as Mike Zullo claims) from Johanna’s BC .

The next two points I examined were Date Stamps, which are according to Mike Zullo at exactly same angle, thus they must have been directly copy-pasted.

Pic 1/3 Here are images showing how hard it is to determine exact angle of 2 date stamps in such low resolution scans. Mike Zullo said that angles are exactly the same.

Pic 2/3 Here are images showing how hard it is to determine exact angle of 2 date stamps in such low resolution scans. Mike Zullo said that angles are exactly the same.

Pic 3/3 Here are images showing how hard it is to determine exact angle of 2 date stamps in such low resolution scans. Mike Zullo said that angles are exactly the same. Which is not true, you can only prove that angles look the same with some tolerance. From my images you can see that ~0.5° change in angle is not detectable. Zullo didn’t bother to check what are the odds of two stamps being within those tolerances.

Remaining fields

Pic 1/3 Here is an image of remaining 5 fields for which Zullo claims that were directly copied from Johanna’s BC to Obamas BC. He claims that all 5 fields are in same position relative to each other.

Pic 2/3 He claims that all 5 fields are in same position relative to each other. I tried rotating certificates in position where Date Stamps angle matches. But I was still not able to reproduce perfect match of whole group.

Pic 3/3 I tried rotating and even changing aspect ratio of PDFs to find if this is true, but I can not reproduce what Zullo claims Mark Gillar did in that blurry video. Typewriter words and letters don’t match at all. They are way off, not even close.

Zullo and or Gillar contradict themselves, I don’t know how such big mistake could be missed. Check out Mark Gillar’s video at timestamp: 1:15:

In first point he claims that 6a, 6b, 7b, 7e, 7g on Obama’s certificate are brought from 6a, 6b, 7b, 7e, 7g on Ah’Nee’s certificate: “They were brought from Ah’Nee in one group” … “we will look at first 5 points of forgery together since they were brought from Ah’Nee in one group (marks 6a, 6b, 7b, 7e, 7g)” 7e in on this list and was also used under another point: At (X, box and “various parts of line on top”) Timestamp: 5:35 “Now we are going to focus on boxes 6d (circles 6d on Obama) and 6e (circles 7e on Obama) (Mark Gillar probably made a mistake and said 6e while thinking 7e, field 6e doesn’t even exist) within the Obama PDF.” “Both X-es were taken directly from box 6d (circles 6d on Ah’Nee) in the Ah’Nee long form birth certificate.” “In fact not only was the X pulled over but the box itself was pulled over and various parts of line on top of the X were also pulled over according to forensic document experts.” So X, box and various parts of line on top should be taken from 6d on Ah’Nee Johanna’s certificate and copied to 6d and 7e on Obamas BC. Here Zullo just contradicted himself! In first point 7e on Obamas certificate was copied from 7e on Ah’Nee’s certificate. In his second point the same 7e on Obama’s was copied from 6d on Ah’Nee’s certificate. Which one is it? Is Obama’s 7e from Ah’Nee 6d or 7e? It can’t be both!

This is my debunking of Sheriff Joe Arpaio and Mike Zullo: 9 Points Of Forgery, proof that Obamas Birth Certificate is Fake. This was presented on press conference on 14. Dec 2016.

Source documents:

149 Responses to Looking at Zullo’s press conference more closely

  1. avatar
    john December 29, 2016 at 9:33 pm #

    You couldn’t reproduce the same results…..HAA!! That’s because you not Reed Hayes nor the experts in Italy nor do you have the original hard copy of the Ah’Nee Birth Certificate.

  2. avatar
    Pete December 29, 2016 at 11:50 pm #

    Ah john,

    Always the little troll.

    Someone totally debunks your pet idea, and you try to obfuscate by crowing like you won the Prize Rooster award at the county fair.

    What you just said doesn’t even make the slightest bit of sense.

    Arpaio & Zullo presented supposed “evidence.” We don’t need “the original hard copy” to evaluate whether the “evidence” they presented holds any water or not.

    In fact, I debunked their nonsense the night of their press conference (although with a bit less detail) and, except that I would never describe the final two points as “‘more likely so than not’ proof,” I reached the exact same conclusions.

    The above contributor said:

    I was able to show that 7 of 9 points are false and remaining 2 are only “more likely so than not” proof.

    I would put it only slightly differently: 7 of 9 points are clearly false.

    The remaining 2 might be “plausible,” but “plausible” doesn’t remotely approach “proof.”

    To illustrate this point: it’s plausible that Benito Mussolini is your father.

    Again: “Plausible” doesn’t remotely approach “proof.”

    The above contributor also said:

    I can not reproduce what Zullo claims Mark Gillar did in that blurry video. Typewriter words and letters don’t match at all. They are way off, not even close.

    Precisely. The words and letters don’t match at all. They are way off. Not even close.

    This was the entire approach to my debunking, and it’s all that is necessary.

    The contributor above goes even further by showing, indisputably, that all the things Zullo claims line up perfectly on the two certificates, don’t line up at all.

    In other words: Almost everything they said was clearly false.

    That’s so obvious that you can only reach two possible conclusions about Arpaio or Zullo.

    Either they didn’t know that almost everything they said was clearly false – in which case they’re complete fools…

    Or, they knew that almost everything they said was clearly false, in which case they’re deliberate liars.

    The only other possibility (and it’s one that I will readily admit) is that they’re both. They’re complete fools and deliberate liars.

    That’s about par for birthers, anyway.

    Interestingly, the above contributor and I both reached almost the exact same conclusions regarding the angles of the signatures stamps. Both of us concluded that both stamps on Obama’s certificate appear to be rotated slightly more clockwise than the corresponding stamps on Ah’Nee’s certificate. The above contributor says that one of them is more clockwise than the other. That part I’m not sure about. But the rest of our conclusions are basically identical.

    Here’s the link, again, to my debunking:

    http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=scf320&s=9

    Double-click on image and enlarge (Control-+).

  3. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) December 30, 2016 at 3:51 am #

    There’s another abstract aspect to the whole claim.

    There is only a very small number of Hawaiian BC’s of the time that are known to the public. Obama’s, the Nordykes’, Stig Waidelich, Ah’Nee and one more I forgot of whom, making four plus Obama’s.
    The Ah’Nee BC was (likely) unearthed by WND (IIRC they used it to try to show how the BC number was “out of sequence” with Obama).
    So Zullo wants us to believe that of all the 1000+ Hawaiian BC’s of said month, and the 10,000+ Hawaiian BC’s of the same year, the alleged forger used one of the 4 ones that happened to be made public?

    Let’s not forget the Ah’Nee BC was made public quite some time after the release of the LFBC, so the hypothetical forger could not have used the published version, he would’ve had to procure it from elsewhere.
    Now assuming that is what happened, how would that ever end up in the hands of Jerome Corsi instead of being destroyed after making the forgery?

    Looking at it from the other hypothetical perspective, if the conspiracy is so powerful that it can get anyone from Hawaii to lie about the original records, the hypothetical forger must’ve had free access to all Hawaiian BC’s ever recorded. So of all these tens of thousands, he just happened to use the very BC that was uncovered by WND looking for “any” Hawaiian BC close to Obama’s birth?

    It doesn’t make sense from that perspective anyway, regardless how many “similarities” one can or can’t find.
    Remember the birther Catch-22 of “if it’s too similar, it proves it was copied, therefore forgery; it it’s not similar at all, it proves it can’t be a real BC, therefore forgery”.

  4. avatar
    Sam the Centipede December 30, 2016 at 5:40 am #

    john:
    You couldn’t reproduce the same results…..HAA!! That’s because you not Reed Hayes nor the experts in Italy nor do you have the original hard copy of the Ah’Nee Birth Certificate.

    Ah, Reed Hayes, the “expert” whose report is so bad that even Zullo won’t publish its contents!

    And the Italian “experts” … are American experts not good enough for you, you unpatriotic fuckwit?

    As for Zullo, have you not considered the simplest explanation, that he is a stupid, racist liar, like you and the other birther buffoons?

    We know Zullo is a lying coward. He admitted as much by hiding behind the Fifth Amendment in the Arpaio case. An honest person would have told the truth. Zullo knew that he had three options: (1) take the honorable path, tell the truth, which would show up his earlier lies, and probably demonstrate that he had committed crimes that he wished to hide, (2) continue to tell lies, thus exposing himself to charges of perjury as his lies were exposed and a possible well-deserved prison sentence, or (3) take the coward’s way out and say nothing.

    A court is not permitted to infer adverse conclusions from a witness’s refusal to testify but we certainly are. An honest, decent, courageous person would not need to hide behind the Fifth. But Zullo is none of those things: he is a dishonest, racist coward.

    To hide behind the Fifth is a tacit admission of criminality, or, at least, probable criminality. And this appalling person is your hero, John? Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

  5. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 30, 2016 at 7:35 am #

    The assumption you are making is that the certificate in the possession of Jerome Corsi was the one that Zullo alleges was used in making Obama’s PDF. Not only didn’t Zullo say that, Zullo said in fact that Ah’nee’s own copy was in a lock box all that time.

    The tacit assumption from Zullo is that someone with access to many Hawaiian certificates was responsible for the forgery, copying one bit from one and another bit from another. This points the finger at someone in the Hawaii Department of Health, or several people, since Fukino, Fuddy and Onaka have all certified or spoken to the presence of a real birth certificate for Barack Obama in Hawaii.

    One other detail: the PDF file I have of the Ah’nee certificate was created one week after Obama released his long form. I assume that Taitz made it, but it could have been Booth.

    The Magic M (not logged in): Let’s not forget the Ah’Nee BC was made public quite some time after the release of the LFBC, so the hypothetical forger could not have used the published version, he would’ve had to procure it from elsewhere.
    Now assuming that is what happened, how would that ever end up in the hands of Jerome Corsi instead of being destroyed after making the forgery?

  6. avatar
    Reality Check December 30, 2016 at 9:14 am #

    Remember john is the guy who wanted to melt down Medal of Honor winner Col. Robert’s medal because he dared testify against his hero the traitor Terry Lakin.

  7. avatar
    alg December 30, 2016 at 9:15 am #

    What should be most noteworthy about the “final press conference” isn’t the content, but the fact that the MCSO website and official Facebook page says nothing about it – not even on the news release page. That’s because Sheriff Arpaio wasn’t representing the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office. He was representing himself. The final presser was not an official event of the MCSO, but a private affair conducted in a classroom/auditorium at the training center that can be used by other private organizations.

    It should not be lost on anyone that, at no time during the so-called birther certificate “investigation” did Sheriff Joe use his substantial statutory and constitutional authority as the Maricopa County Sheriff. He never arrested anyone, never sought warrants, never pursued subpoenas and never referred charges for prosecution.

    That’s because he knows the whole thing was horse hockey from the very beginning. He chose to have a handful of wannabe cop goofballs make believe investigate the thing because he knew it would have been improper for him to devote the true weight of his office to this nonsense.

    For any of you birthers still wishfully thinking, the so-called Cold Case Posse had no authority to investigate anything. It’s a private, non-profit organization, not a law enforcement agency. And, it now no longer exists – it’s been purged from the posse rosters even as Arpaio is still in office. It’s website has been missing in action for a couple of months now.

    For the record, during Mr. Obama’s 8 year term of office not a single local, state or federal law enforcement agency found cause to “investigate” the President’s birth certificate. Not one, not even the MCSO. The only court cases filed were civil matters filed by private individuals and virtually all of the 226 court decisions were in favor of Mr. Obama’s eligibility, including 35 actions of the U.S. Supreme Court.

    To “john” and others birthers dropping in here…it’s over, finished, done with. You’ve been duped into believing something that wasn’t true. Now that this birther thingy is over, I can help – I have a bridge over the Hudson River I’d like to sell you, cheap.

  8. avatar
    john December 30, 2016 at 10:39 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    The assumption you are making is that the certificate in the possession of Jerome Corsi was the one that Zullo alleges was used in making Obama’s PDF. Not only didn’t Zullo say that, Zullo said in fact that Ah’nee’s own copy was in a lock box all that time.

    The tacit assumption from Zullo is that someone with access to many Hawaiian certificates was responsible for the forgery, copying one bit from one and another bit from another. This points the finger at someone in the Hawaii Department of Health, or several people, since Fukino, Fuddy and Onaka have all certified or spoken to the presence of a real birth certificate for Barack Obama in Hawaii.

    One other detail: the PDF file I have of the Ah’nee certificate was created one week after Obama released his long form. I assume that Taitz made it, but it could have been Booth.

    I believe is always been Zullo’s assumption and suspicion that someone in the Dept. of Health was involved in the forgery. We know that Fuddy is dead although Zullo has said it is mere speculation that foul play is involved neverthless, he has said that stranger things have happend.

  9. avatar
    Arthur B. December 30, 2016 at 11:09 am #

    john: I believe is always been Zullo’s assumption and suspicion that someone in the Dept. of Health was involved in the forgery. We know that Fuddy is dead although Zullo has said it is mere speculation that foul play is involved neverthless, he has said that stranger things have happend.

    And there you have it, john. More than eight years into the birther fantasies, the best you can do is to continue to conflate suspicions with assumptions, and promote instances of “mere speculation” on the grounds that “stranger things have happend.” (sic)

  10. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater December 30, 2016 at 11:27 am #

    john:
    You couldn’t reproduce the same results…..HAA!! That’s because you not Reed Hayes nor the experts in Italy nor do you have the original hard copy of the Ah’Nee Birth Certificate.

    Yes because they simply made up the results. What I think is Mark Gillar created this and then zullo tried using Hayes and the Italian firm for credibility. Much like how in the past he tried using Verna Lee to bolster his credibility about the race coding

  11. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater December 30, 2016 at 11:44 am #

    john: it is mere speculation that foul play is involved neverthless, he has said that stranger things have happend.

    Yes like zullo losing his car for a few hours in the parking lot. Or him making everyone in the car hide their cell phones in the glove box as if that would matter

  12. avatar
    Pete December 30, 2016 at 12:06 pm #

    The Magic M (not logged in): The Ah’Nee BC was (likely) unearthed by WND (IIRC they used it to try to show how the BC number was “out of sequence” with Obama).

    IIRC, they actually HID the birth certificate number, because the certificate number on Ah’Nee’s certificate destroyed their previous bullsh*t claim that Obama’s certificate number was out of sequence.

    This was a literal coverup by WND.

    Not the last attempt by the major birthers to cover up their lies.

  13. avatar
    Pete December 30, 2016 at 12:22 pm #

    Actually, come to think of it, I suppose the LAST significant attempt by the major birthers to cover up their lies was Arpaio & Zullo’s recent press conference.

    Arpaio & Zullo previously lied about having a “1961 Vital Statistics Instruction Manual” that “proved” the race codes on Obama’s certificate were “evidence of forgery.”

    And it was literally PROVEN that they lied about it.

    Notice they said nothing at all about those previous lies at their recent press conference.

    Instead, they used more falsehoods (and transparent ones at that) to try and prop up their bogus claims.

    So yeah, I would say their recent press conference was essentially an attempt to keep covering up their previous lies.

  14. avatar
    Pete December 30, 2016 at 12:29 pm #

    The Magic M (not logged in): Looking at it from the other hypothetical perspective, if the conspiracy is so powerful that it can get anyone from Hawaii to lie about the original records, the hypothetical forger must’ve had free access to all Hawaiian BC’s ever recorded. So of all these tens of thousands, he just happened to use the very BC that was uncovered by WND looking for “any” Hawaiian BC close to Obama’s birth?

    The hypothetical forger had access to thousands of certificates.

    Almost all of the claims made by Arpaio & Zullo at their recent press conference are transparently false. This can be seen by a simple visual comparison of the pieces that they claim were copied, and is further driven into the ground by the additional analysis of our anonymous contributor.

    In fact, what they proved was that virtually nothing on Obama’s certificate could even plausibly have been copied from Ah’Nee’s.

    So really the theory is that because one or two of the X’s on Obama’s certificate look like they might be in the same position as corresponding X’s on Ah’Nee’s certificate, this is “PROOF” that a hypothetical “forger” DID IN FACT pick Ah’Nee’s certificate (one of only 3 or 4 that we have seen) out of the many thousands of certificates he had access to, and DID IN FACT copy those one or two X’s from that certificate to help create Obama’s.

    The whole theory is literally as ridiculous as someone offering to sell the Brooklyn Bridge.

    LITERALLY. It’s that f****** ridiculous.

    And john, and other birthers, demonstrate their utter rock-stupid stupidity by even claiming to believe it.

  15. avatar
    Reality Check December 30, 2016 at 12:40 pm #

    You made some excellent points Alg. This wasn’t a noble cause that went bad because Mike Zullo took it over for his own self interest. It was a stupid idea from the beginning. A bunch of older white Republicans decided that the perfectly valid birth certificate released during the campaign in 2008, multiple statements from the Department of Health in Hawaii, and finally a specially issued long form birth certificate with a fully documented chain of custody weren’t good enough for them when a black President was involved. So they petitioned their racist hero Sheriff Arpaio to do something about it. He was more than happy to do so.

    Arpaio knew it would be both a sham and a political mistake to pursue such an idiotic investigation with paid county resources so he gave it to his friend Mike Zullo and the volunteer powerless Cold Case Posse. That way he could put his personal stamp of approval on it and use it for endless fund raising. Arpaio knew his base would love him even though he was only pretending to investigate something.

    Other than the sham conclusion by Zullo and Arpaio that Obama’s long form certificate was forged the only other outcome was that Secretary of State Bennett was pressured into asking for a verification letter from the Hawaii Department of Health that Barack Obama was indeed born in Hawaii. This was a ridiculous request by Bennett for which he should be ashamed. No law required it and he only requested it for one candidate in 2012. Rather than drag it out Hawaii complied with his request.

    alg: That’s because he knows the whole thing was horse hockey from the very beginning. He chose to have a handful of wannabe cop goofballs make believe investigate the thing because he knew it would have been improper for him to devote the true weight of his office to this nonsense.

  16. avatar
    Bdot December 30, 2016 at 12:53 pm #

    john:
    You couldn’t reproduce the same results…..HAA!! That’s because you not Reed Hayes nor the experts in Italy nor do you have the original hard copy of the Ah’Nee Birth Certificate.

    So you are saying without the original hard copy you cannot truly analyze the authenticity of a BC? hmmmmm, where have I heard that before?

  17. avatar
    Joey December 30, 2016 at 1:35 pm #

    john: I believe is always been Zullo’s assumption and suspicion that someone in the Dept. of Health was involved in the forgery. We know that Fuddy is dead although Zullo has said it is mere speculation that foul play is involved neverthless, he has said that stranger things have happend.

    How does John (or any other birther) explain the “Health Bureau Statistics” articles in the Honolulu newspapers from August 13 and August 14, 1961? Since the data of the Obama birth was published in 1961, that obviates the need to forge anything.
    Neither Reed Hayes nor anyone in Italy nor Mike Zullo has ever inspected Barack Obama’s original, hard copy birth certificate. They would be laughed out of court with their “9 points” based on analysis of a scanned image.
    Loretta Fuddy may be deceased but both of the original 2008 inspectors of the Obama birth certficate are very much alive and able to be subpoenaed, deposed and called to testify under oath. Loretta Fuddy didn’t become Health Director until 2010.

    July 27, 2009
    STATEMENT BY HEALTH DIRECTOR CHIYOME FUKINO, M.D.
    “I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Director of the Hawai‛i State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawai‘i State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawai‘i and is a natural-born American citizen. I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October 2008 over eight months ago.”

  18. avatar
    bob December 30, 2016 at 3:01 pm #

    Joey: How does John (or any other birther) explain the “Health Bureau Statistics” articles in the Honolulu newspapers from August 13 and August 14, 1961?

    Zullo and his ilk believe that anyone can just walk into the HDOH, claim Hawaiian birth, and be issued a Hawaiian birth certificate. So the newspapers just printed what HDOH had told them to print.

    This is where john/traderjack/etc. will say, “Anything is possible! Stranger things have happened!” As if their feverish speculation is evidence of anything other than their own mental infirmities.

  19. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 30, 2016 at 4:33 pm #

    And they redacted the parents’ races because they blew the Zullo race code table.

    Pete: IIRC, they actually HID the birth certificate number, because the certificate number on Ah’Nee’s certificate destroyed their previous bullsh*t claim that Obama’s certificate number was out of sequence.

  20. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 30, 2016 at 5:00 pm #

    Quite a lot of the Ah’nee birth certificate was redacted by WND, including the certificate number, when they published it on September 11, 2011.

    http://www.wnd.com/2011/09/342937/

    While WND attempted to redact the certificate number, the image of the reverse side of the certificate provided enough bleed-through for it to be read. WND subsequently replaced the reverse image with better bleed through redaction, too late, as John Woodman had figured out the whole thing.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/09/new-hawaiian-certificate-explodes-birther-theories/

    Pete: IIRC, they actually HID the birth certificate number, because the certificate number on Ah’Nee’s certificate destroyed their previous bullsh*t claim that Obama’s certificate number was out of sequence.

  21. avatar
    Cody Judy December 30, 2016 at 5:12 pm #

    bob: anyone can just walk into the HDOH, claim Hawaiian birth

    That’s actually what happens with home births or mid-wife assist. There’s no Doc , no Hospital, it’s a relatives Testimony. , doesn’t have to be Mother or Father, as was the case with …

    “According to Forensic Document Experts” not Mike Zullo.

    Doc, you spoil your whole dog-gone article with a grudge against Mike Zullo?

    Go back and count how many times Zullo attest to the Document Experts on two different Continents, not him. He names them.

    Your story list “Anonymous” as the source. Impressive, and plenty of time to doctor up the X .

    Really the only way to critically dis-lodge the Forensic Analysis is by using their exact samples also with some reputable source. . not Bob, Rickey, or Joey. 😂 whose names here are Anonymous right?

    You know this?

    Why don’t you get with Obama, all pitch in some money, and do it right?

    Why won’t he ask for Hearings on this in Congress. It’s soiling his legacy right?

  22. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 30, 2016 at 5:13 pm #

    Could Gillar have been the conduit for the fake race code table? Somebody sent it to Zullo.

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: What I think is Mark Gillar created this and then zullo tried using Hayes and the Italian firm for credibility. Much like how in the past he tried using Verna Lee to bolster his credibility about the race coding

  23. avatar
    Cody Judy December 30, 2016 at 5:23 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: What I think is Mark Gillar created this and then zullo tried using Hayes and the Italian firm for credibility. Much like how in the past he tried using Verna Lee to bolster his credibility about the race coding

    Oh my gosh, that is conspiracy lol😂 Call the two Forensic Experts Teams up and tell them to get in touch with the New York Times.

    Would there be a Front Page Story on using “false claims” of these Companies to disparage the identification of a sitting President? I think so.

    Yeah, better get on the phone with that one. That would be a Big Story!

  24. avatar
    bob December 30, 2016 at 5:24 pm #

    Cody Judy: That’s actually what happens with home births or mid-wife assist.There’s no Doc , no Hospital, it’s a relatives Testimony. , doesn’t have to be Mother or Father, as was the case with …

    Birthers like ex-con Judy would like to believe that President Obama was not born in Hawaii, yet his relatives showed up at HDOH without a baby.

    Ex-con Judy, of course, has no evidence that President Obama was born anywhere else than in Hawaii. That doesn’t stop ex-con Judy from spreading his lies.

    “According to Forensic Document Experts” not Mike Zullo.

    Ex-con Judy has never seen — and will never see — what these alleged experts alleged said.

    Which is why the focus is properly on Zullo: Zullo is a liar, and he will never, ever provide any evidence to substantiate his lies.

    He names them.

    Reed Hayes and … “Marco.” Perhaps ex-con Judy can fill us in on who “Marco” is, and what is his expertise.

    Really the only way to critically display lodge the Forensic Analysis

    Exactly: Zullo needs to publicly release the reports purportedly authored by Hayes and “Marco.”

  25. avatar
    john December 30, 2016 at 6:30 pm #

    bob: Birthers like ex-con Judy would like to believe that President Obama was not born in Hawaii, yet his relatives showed up at HDOH without a baby.

    Ex-con Judy, of course, has no evidence that President Obama was born anywhere else than in Hawaii.That doesn’t stop ex-con Judy from spreading his lies.

    Ex-con Judy has never seen — and will never see — what these alleged experts alleged said.

    Which is why the focus is properly on Zullo: Zullo is a liar, and he will never, ever provide any evidence to substantiate his lies.

    Reed Hayes and … “Marco.”Perhaps ex-con Judy can fill us in on who “Marco” is, and what is his expertise.

    Exactly: Zullo needs to publicly release the reports purportedly authored by Hayes and “Marco.”

    Even if Zullo releases Hayes and Italy’s report, their findings stand regardless as no obot on this board or Fogbow has any credentials to refute such findings.

  26. avatar
    Joey December 30, 2016 at 6:40 pm #

    Cody Judy: That’s actually what happens with home births or mid-wife assist.There’s no Doc , no Hospital, it’s a relatives Testimony. , doesn’t have to be Mother or Father, as was the case with …

    Mr Judy has mis-remembered that Barack Obama’s birth is attested to by the signature of an Attending Physician at Kapi’olani Hospital, Dr. Davd A Sinclair. Therefore he was not a home birth.
    President Eisenhower WAS a home birth in Denton, Texas and he got a birth certificate for the first time when Ike was in his 50’s on the notarized testimony of his wife, Mamie and his brother, David.

  27. avatar
    Joey December 30, 2016 at 6:50 pm #

    john: Even if Zullo releases Hayes and Italy’s report, their findings stand regardless as no obot on this board or Fogbow has any credentials to refute such findings.

    The Reed Hayes and Italian findings can stand, sit, recline or squat, the Maricopa County Cold Case Posse will be officially disbanded as of next Tuesday because there’s a new Democratic Party nominated sheriff in Maricopa County.
    Unless and until those findings are subjected to cross-examination in a court of law and the so-called forensic document examiners are qualified as experts by a judge, Zullo’s announcement of findings carry zero legal weight.

  28. avatar
    bob December 30, 2016 at 6:50 pm #

    john: Even if Zullo releases Hayes and Italy’s report, their findings stand regardless as no obot on this board or Fogbow has any credentials to refute such findings.

    There’s nothing to refute because Zullo will never, ever release the alleged reports allegedly written by Hayes and “Marco.”

    Birthers like john have no idea who “Marco” is, what expertise “Marco” might have, or what “Marco” has ever said about anything. Yet birthers like john agree with the unknown conclusions of this unknown “Marco.”

    And confidential to john: reality is sufficient refutation; birthers failed at removing President Obama from office, and no one cares what they believe.

  29. avatar
    Notorial Dissent December 30, 2016 at 8:02 pm #

    We are back to the mythical reports crap again. The plain and simple of it is that if the “experts” reports confirmed what the Kommandant has been claiming then he would have produced and ballyhooed the reports as absolute proof, and yet what do we have, crickets as far as the actual ink and paper reports. There is only ONE logical reason for that silence, THE REPORTS DO NOT SAY WHAT ZULLO CLAIMS THEY SAY. We know from past actions that Zullo is a confirmed proven liar, this is just one more example.

    If you have documentation that proves your point you present it, if you don’t you hide it.

  30. avatar
    JD Reed December 30, 2016 at 8:49 pm #

    john: Even if Zullo releases Hayes and Italy’s report, their findings stand regardless as no obot on this board or Fogbow has any credentials to refute such findings.

    The heck you say. Many here have professional credentials far surpassing Zullo’s, and probably the Italian connection’s as well. You can take it to the bank that the obots will prevail on the historical record and the birthers will be remembered only as a squirrelly fringe, John.

  31. avatar
    Rickey December 30, 2016 at 9:04 pm #

    Cody Judy: That’s actually what happens with home births or mid-wife assist.There’s no Doc , no Hospital, it’s a relatives Testimony. , doesn’t have to be Mother or Father, as was the case with …

    Every time you post here you reinforce the impression that you are an idiot.

    A child born at home or with the assistance of a mid-wife can’t get a birth certificate that says the child was born in a hospital and is signed by a physician.

    Go back and count how many times Zullo attest to the Document Experts on two different Continents,not him. He names them.

    Zullo can’t attest to anything which his so-called “document experts” have to say. Coming from Zullo it is inadmissible hearsay.

    Why won’t Zullo release the Reed Hayes report? What is he hiding?

    Really the only way to critically dis-lodge the Forensic Analysis is by using their exact samples also with some reputable source. . not Bob, Rickey, or Joey. whose names here are Anonymous right?

    I can’t speak for Bob and Joey, but “Rickey” is my real name. I don’t use my full name because, as you know, people like Zullo have tried to intimidate and threaten Obots they have been able to identify.

    It’s soiling his legacy right?

    No, it’s not. He will go down in history as the president who saved the United States from a second Great Depression.

  32. avatar
    alg December 30, 2016 at 10:37 pm #

    john: Even if Zullo releases Hayes and Italy’s report, their findings stand regardless as no obot on this board or Fogbow has any credentials to refute such findings.

    The fact that Zullo refuses to release the Hayes “Report” and won’t even tell us who the Italian job is stands as reason enough to refute, ignore and disregard anything Zullo says. A credentialed refutation is unnecessary when you don’t even have the actual analysis and reports by these so-called independent experts.

    And, keep in mind Mr. Hayes has already himself publically refuted what Zullo claims his report supposedly says.

    John, the reality is that this isn’t going anywhere. It’s over. Arpaio wants Congress to “investigate” this. But the fact is the only thing a Congressional Committee can do is ask for the very same State of Hawaii verification that Arizona Secretary of State Bennett asked for and received.

  33. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 30, 2016 at 10:45 pm #

    While Reed Hayes has published some general remarks on his web site telling us his conclusions, if not his methodology, we really don’t know what ForLabs concluded beyond some very vague comments by Zullo.

    Hayes was in over his head attempting to unravel a document with the kind of high-end compression that the Xerox machine does. Remember, Hayes is an old-school handwriting analyst, not a computer wiz kid. There were several important factors that Hayes never considered in his analysis. For example, Zullo said Hayes thought that the informant’s signature was made out of two, when actually it was one signature reduced to separate resolutions by the Xerox processing–something we know by looking at the unprocessed file from Applewhite. Hayes didn’t ever look at the Applewhite image. Now that Hayes has been made aware of this image, and realizes that it disproves his theory, perhaps he will re-examine some of his other findings and retract his foolish essay into electronic document analysis.

    john: Even if Zullo releases Hayes and Italy’s report, their findings stand regardless as no obot on this board or Fogbow has any credentials to refute such findings.

  34. avatar
    bob December 30, 2016 at 11:42 pm #

    Rickey: I don’t use my full name because, as you know, people like Zullo have tried to intimidate and threaten Obots they have been able to identify.

    To say nothing of those claiming to have an explosive device.

  35. avatar
    gorefan December 30, 2016 at 11:43 pm #

    alg: John, the reality is that this isn’t going anywhere.

    These idiots honestly think that Speaker Ryan is going to authorize a birth certificate investigation.

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/paul-ryan-has-news-for-the-birthers-he-s-not-one-of-them

    Birthers convinced themselves for years that John Boehner was holding up Congressional investigations. Not true. He only let his caucus members use him as a scapegoat whenever constituents wanted them to do something about it.

  36. avatar
    gorefan December 31, 2016 at 12:09 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: we really don’t know what ForLabs concluded beyond some very vague comments by Zullo.

    My impression is that Zullo careful parses his words with respect to the experts. When he talks specifics about the Xerox 7655 he mentions the Italian lab. When he talks about the alignment with the Ah’Nee certificate he refers to Reed Hayes. Even reading from the Hayes report. When he talks in general terms about both experts agreeing, that sounds more like Zullo exaggerations.

  37. avatar
    Sluffy1 December 31, 2016 at 6:57 am #

    Just6 wondering.
    How much did Zullo pay Mr Hayes?
    Would he charge more to examine a certain PDF with the

    : several important factors

    included?

  38. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 31, 2016 at 8:44 am #

    He carefully parses his words in respect to everything, although he makes mistakes like his repeated wrong description of OCR.

    gorefan: My impression is that Zullo careful parses his words with respect to the experts.

  39. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 31, 2016 at 8:47 am #

    I haven’t been threatened, even though I appeared in a Jerome Corsi article at WND, was mentioned in his book, and named as a birth certificate forgery conspirator in Doug Vogt’s lawsuit.

    Foggy said that he’s only gotten one nasty phone call at his former flower shop.

    Rickey: I can’t speak for Bob and Joey, but “Rickey” is my real name. I don’t use my full name because, as you know, people like Zullo have tried to intimidate and threaten Obots they have been able to identify.

  40. avatar
    john December 31, 2016 at 9:13 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I haven’t been threatened, even though I appeared in a Jerome Corsi article at WND, was mentioned in his book, and named as a birth certificate forgery conspirator in Doug Vogt’s lawsuit.

    Foggy said that he’s only gotten one nasty phone call at his former flower shop.

    RC is the real sissy of the group. He has never revealed his true name. At one point RC was outed as “Randy Daniels” but I am not sure if this his real name. Some think RC is Professor Rockwell from STOR in CT but I found a recording a while back of Rockwell and RC doesn’t seem to resemble him.

  41. avatar
    john December 31, 2016 at 9:15 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    While Reed Hayes has published some general remarks on his web site telling us his conclusions, if not his methodology, we really don’t know what ForLabs concluded beyond some very vague comments by Zullo.

    Hayes was in over his head attempting to unravel a document with the kind of high-end compression that the Xerox machine does. Remember, Hayes is an old-school handwriting analyst, not a computer wiz kid. There were several important factors that Hayes never considered in his analysis. For example, Zullo said Hayes thought that the informant’s signature was made out of two, when actually it was one signature reduced to separate resolutions by the Xerox processing–something we know by looking at the unprocessed file from Applewhite. Hayes didn’t ever look at the Applewhite image. Now that Hayes has been made aware of this image, and realizes that it disproves his theory, perhaps he will re-examine some of his other findings and retract his foolish essay into electronic document analysis.

    Based on Zullo’s press conference, it appears the Hayes did re-examine his findings and determined that BC was indeed a forgery.

  42. avatar
    john December 31, 2016 at 9:38 am #

    john: Based on Zullo’s press conference, it appears the Hayes did re-examine his findings and determined that BC was indeed a forgery.

    Zullo realized he had to get away from the Xerox thing because it was nothing than a rabbit hole and approach the document from a different angle. The real gift came when Zullo his hands on an actual hard copy Hawaii Birth Certificate (The Ah’Nee) of one that was right around the time of Obama’s BC. Contacting Hayes and then bringing in Italy, they both confirmed Obama’s BC was a forgery.

  43. avatar
    alg December 31, 2016 at 9:45 am #

    john: Based on Zullo’s press conference, it appears the Hayes did re-examine his findings and determined that BC was indeed a forgery.

    No he didn’t. This is what Mr. Hayes actually said: “In short, there are indications that the Obama Certificate of Live Birth released by the White House in April 2011 may be a manufactured document or perhaps even an outright forgery. But without examining the original document housed at the Hawaii Department of Health, there can be no absolute certainty.”

    In other words he never actually concluded anything. He speculates about “indications” and equivocates with the words “may be.” He then goes on to state what the key failure of Zullo’s “analysis” is – that he’s never examined the original document that the State of Hawaii has consistently stated is in their archives.

    Put Hayes on the expert witness stand with that statement and any average attorney could tear him up in shreds in less than thirty seconds. “Indications” of something that “may be” isn’t proof of anything.

  44. avatar
    Reality Check December 31, 2016 at 10:13 am #

    If I had to guess I would pick a number in the range of $5000 – $10000 for Hayes’ work. An attorney would have a better idea. I know a guy who does forensic work in another field and what he charges. He told me that he bills expert testimony at double rate because of the prep work involved. Hayes work was all done in the office and involved no travel expenses. Therefore, it would include only hours at his base rate spent analyzing a file Zullo emailed him and writing a report.

    It’s ironic that NBC and I provided Zullo with better research than he paid for with our work on Xerox WorkCentre. We actually cracked the case and figured out what caused the PDF file to be structured as it was. His paid experts and all the other Birther experts Zullo used couldn’t explain without stupidly claiming forgery. I don’t mean to undervalue the work of others like John Woodman who produced four outstanding videos and a book. If Zullo had just taken up Mr. Woodman on his offer to assist he would have saved himself a lot of embarrassment in the first place.

    Sluffy1:
    Just6 wondering.
    How much did Zullo pay Mr Hayes?
    Would he charge more to examine a certain PDF with the

    included?

  45. avatar
    gorefan December 31, 2016 at 10:23 am #

    john: Zullo realized he had to get away from the Xerox thing because it was nothing than a rabbit hole and approach the document from a different angle.The real gift came when Zullo his hands on an actual hard copy Hawaii Birth Certificate (The Ah’Nee) of one that was right around the time of Obama’s BC. Contacting Hayes and then bringing in Italy, they both confirmed Obama’s BC was a forgery.

    That’s just the story he tells now to explain why he sat on this info since 2013.

    In 2013, Gillar was talking about the alignment of the two date stamps on the President’s and another BC. There is only one 2013 Hayes report and in it Hayes talks about the alignment of entries in the the boxes of the President’s and the Ah’Nee birth certificates.

    All the Italians did was verify the work of NBC, RC and Vickland.

    You’ve been played again.

  46. avatar
    john December 31, 2016 at 10:40 am #

    gorefan: That’s just the story he tells now to explain why he sat on this info since 2013.

    In 2013, Gillar was talking about the alignment of the two date stamps on the President’s and another BC.There is only one 2013 Hayes report and in it Hayes talks about the alignment of entries in the the boxes of the President’s and the Ah’Nee birth certificates.

    All the Italians did was verify the work of NBC, RC and Vickland.

    You’ve been played again.

    The work by those individuals is mostly inconclusive and unrealiable. As Zullo, explained it took over a year to find the correct software or firmware used in 2011 that would operate the Xerox machine. Even after finding the correct software, numerous tests of Xerox resulted in inconclusive findings which Zullo determined the Xerox route was really rabbit hole being orchestrated by the Obots. Zullo had to get away from it and look at the document from different approach.

  47. avatar
    gorefan December 31, 2016 at 11:02 am #

    john: The work by those individuals is mostly inconclusive and unrealiable.As Zullo, explained it took over a year to find the correct software or firmware used in 2011 that would operate the Xerox machine. Even after finding the correct software, numerous tests of Xerox resulted in inconclusive findings which Zullo determined the Xerox route was really rabbit hole being orchestrated by the Obots. Zullo had to get away from it and look at the document from different approach.

    Wrong Zullo said that the Italians extracted the quantization tables from the President’s BC PDF and his tax returns and that proved that both were scanned on a Xerox 7655. Exactly what the three amigos did in the summer of 2013. Zullo also said that the PDFs they created had the same type of layers. Again repeating the work of obots.

    Finally Zullo said that because they could no longer prove that the layers were made by human manipulation, they dropped that part of the investigation.

    That’s when Zullo got entangled with Montgomery (fall, 2013) and Monty took them for hundreds of thousands of dollars before Arapio had to admit it was junk.

    And that is why Zullo had to return to all he had left. The Hayes report from 2013.

    On December 15th, Zullo repackaged his old stuff and sold it to you as some bright and shiny, new evidence. And being a birther you fell for it – hook, line and sinker.

  48. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater December 31, 2016 at 11:31 am #

    john: Zullo realized he had to get away from the Xerox thing because it was nothing than a rabbit hole and approach the document from a different angle. The real gift came when Zullo his hands on an actual hard copy Hawaii Birth Certificate (The Ah’Nee) of one that was right around the time of Obama’s BC. Contacting Hayes and then bringing in Italy, they both confirmed Obama’s BC was a forgery.

    He had to get away from it because he realized it disproved his claim that no machine process could create the so-called anomalies

  49. avatar
    bob December 31, 2016 at 11:41 am #

    john: RC is the real sissy of the group. He has never revealed his true name.

    Tell me more, “john.”

  50. avatar
    Reality Check December 31, 2016 at 12:28 pm #

    I should have mentioned Kevin Vicklund and Doc C. too. They all helped. Doc has done some terrific debunking on all aspects of the Birther arguments.

    gorefan: All the Italians did was verify the work of NBC, RC and Vickland.

  51. avatar
    john December 31, 2016 at 12:28 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: He had to get away from it because he realized it disproved his claim that no machine process could create the so-called anomalies

    Zullo was apparently right as he discovered that so so-called anomalies were inconclusive and couldn’t be replicated withany reliability or constistency. In other words, the Xerox replicated some of anomalies but not all and results were simply inconclusive. It was a rabbit hole set up by Obots that Zullo was chasing.

  52. avatar
    Reality Check December 31, 2016 at 12:35 pm #

    Almost every anti-Birther who has been identified has been harassed in one way or another. Jerome Corsi tried to get Historian Dude fired. WND published photos of Foggy’s children. I believe Butterfly Bilderberg’s employer was called. Doc has certainly been the subject of threats and libelous claims. I have had threatening comments left at my blog.

    I am not paid and am doing Birther debunking out of a a spirit that there is right and wrong, truth and fiction, and fairness is deserved even for public figures.

    bob: Tell me more, “john.”

  53. avatar
    Pete December 31, 2016 at 1:00 pm #

    Reality Check: It’s ironic that NBC and I provided Zullo with better research than he paid for with our work on Xerox WorkCentre. We actually cracked the case and figured out what caused the PDF file to be structured as it was.

    Yes, you did. Kudos to you. That was excellent work.

  54. avatar
    Pete December 31, 2016 at 1:02 pm #

    Reality Check: I should have mentioned Kevin Vicklund and Doc C. too. They all helped. Doc has done some terrific debunking on all aspects of the Birther arguments.

    There are so many people who stood up for the truth and helped debunk this horsesh*t, and – as RC has noted – at personal cost.

    Thanks to all.

  55. avatar
    bob December 31, 2016 at 1:08 pm #

    john: Zullo was apparently right as he discovered that so so-called anomalies were inconclusive and couldn’t be replicated withany reliability or constistency.

    What are you smoking? It was Zullo who first claimed that the “so-called anomalies” were indicators of forgery. Various people then showed that the “anomalies” were natural artifacts of the reproduction process. Zullo then voluntarily went down a rabbit hole to prove those people were right all along.

  56. avatar
    gorefan December 31, 2016 at 1:20 pm #

    john: Zullo was apparently right as he discovered that so so-called anomalies were inconclusive and couldn’t be replicated withany reliability or constistency. In other words, the Xerox replicated some of anomalies but not all and results were simply inconclusive. It was a rabbit hole set up by Obots that Zullo was chasing.

    Zullo said that the Xerox evidence made proving that the BC was manipulated by human hands impossible. He paid thousands of dollars for the same information he could have gotten for free just by going to NBC’s and RC’s websites.

    And that was after throwing hundreds of thousands of dollars away on Montgomery.

    What a moron.

  57. avatar
    Joey December 31, 2016 at 1:41 pm #

    john: Based on Zullo’s press conference, it appears the Hayes did re-examine his findings and determined that BC was indeed a forgery.

    But Reed Hayes has never seen Barack Obama’s birth certificate. It is still stored in the office safe of Hawaii Registrar Alvin Onaka. What Mr. Hayes has seen is a scanned image of the birth certificate.
    I am hoping that Mike Zullo will try to introduce his “evidence of forgery” in a court of law or before a congressional investigative committee. That would mean the defense would get to read the reports under discovery and the Democrats on a congressional committee would be able to read the reports.

  58. avatar
    Joey December 31, 2016 at 2:15 pm #

    It just astounds me that birthers cannot seem to understand that every bit of their alleged “evidence” of forgery is 100% dependent on the analysis of an intentionally digitally manipulated image of a birth certificate ( intentionally manipulated to compress the file and to make the document easy to read on a computer screen) and 0% of their alleged “evidence” is derived from an examination of the orginal, vault edition, hard copy Certificate of Live Birth. The original document can be made available for inspection if a judge or the chairperson of a congressional investigative committee ordered it to be released for inspection.

  59. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 31, 2016 at 2:15 pm #

    I’ve been running around the Internet saying that the statute of limitations has run out on any act of forgery from April of 2011, so unless I am mistaken, there will never be any prosecution, and I can’t imagine what possible cause of action exists for a civil lawsuit. That leaves Congress. The new Congress is remarkably like the old Congress, two new Republican Senators and about 27 new Republican House members. I’m just not seeing a Congressional investigation.

    Joey: I am hoping that Mike Zullo will try to introduce his “evidence of forgery” in a court of law or before a congressional investigative committee.

  60. avatar
    gorefan December 31, 2016 at 2:27 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I’m just not seeing a Congressional investigation.

    Both Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell have not been interested in the birth certificate stuff in the past. When questioned before Ryan would send birthers copy of the President’s birth certificate.

    The December 15th announcement was just their way of putting the whole thing behind them. From now on when asked about it, they’ll just say it is in the hands of congress.

  61. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 31, 2016 at 2:30 pm #

    I plan to contact my congressional representatives in mid January to ask them if any of Arpaio’s evidence has been presented to them and to ask for a copy if it has.

    gorefan: The December 15th announcement was just their way of putting the whole thing behind them. From now on when asked about it, they’ll just say it is in the hands of congress.

  62. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG. December 31, 2016 at 2:39 pm #

    gorefan: The December 15th announcement was just their way of putting the whole thing behind them. From now on when asked about it, they’ll just say it is in the hands of congress.

    If I remember right, didn’t they say they were leaving it with “a federal agency”?
    Which could be any one of them really. U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, EPA, FDA USDA, MILF…mighta made up that last one.

  63. avatar
    trader jack December 31, 2016 at 2:52 pm #

    Joey: Mr Judy has mis-remembered that Barack Obama’s birth is attested to by the signature of an Attending Physician at Kapi’olani Hospital, Dr. Davd A Sinclair. Therefore he was not a home birth.
    President Eisenhower WAS a home birth in Denton, Texas and he got a birth certificate for the first time when Ike was in his 50’s on the notarized testimony of his wife, Mamie and his brother, David.

    l

    You really do need to explore the law on births. If a child is delivered in the vehicle, when being delivered to the hospital, the hospital is shown as the place of birth. except , perhaps, when delivered over international waters on a vessel of foreign registry.

    You can not tell from the birth record where the child was delivered!

  64. avatar
    trader jack December 31, 2016 at 3:02 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    While Reed Hayes has published some general remarks on his web site telling us his conclusions, if not his methodology, we really don’t know what ForLabs concluded beyond some very vague comments by Zullo.

    Hayes was in over his head attempting to unravel a document with the kind of high-end compression that the Xerox machine does. Remember, Hayes is an old-school handwriting analyst, not a computer wiz kid. There were several important factors that Hayes never considered in his analysis. For example, Zullo said Hayes thought that the informant’s signature was made out of two, when actually it was one signature reduced to separate resolutions by the Xerox processing–something we know by looking at the unprocessed file from Applewhite. Hayes didn’t ever look at the Applewhite image. Now that Hayes has been made aware of this image, and realizes that it disproves his theory, perhaps he will re-examine some of his other findings and retract his foolish essay into electronic document analysis.

    And the printer printed the signatures with three different dpi in the same signatures, which is impossible for a normal printer to do.

    The real question could be answered if they would release the second copy of the certified copy that was provided to the white house, as that would enable the two to be compared for similarity.
    A

  65. avatar
    gorefan December 31, 2016 at 3:02 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I plan to contact my congressional representatives in mid January to ask them if any of Arpaio’s evidence has been presented to them and to ask for a copy if it has.

    Poor Mike Volins will be going to Congress with only his pathetic Sheriff’s kits and Gillar’s silly video. It’s guaranteed Zullo won’t let him include the experts’ reports.

  66. avatar
    trader jack December 31, 2016 at 3:07 pm #

    john: Based on Zullo’s press conference, it appears the Hayes did re-examine his findings and determined that BC was indeed a forgery.

    Nope, he said there were discrepancies in the inspected document , but he could not say it was forged without looking at the original, which is not available for inspection

    He was very clear on that.

  67. avatar
    trader jack December 31, 2016 at 3:12 pm #

    alg: Put Hayes on the expert witness stand with that statement and any average attorney could tear him up in shreds in less than thirty seconds. “Indications” of something that “may be” isn’t proof of anything.

    Put anyone on this board on the stand with an attorney question him/her would be in tears in a short while,

    “, of course, me, who can evade with great ease all questions, with the good old “I can’t recall that” ! LOL

  68. avatar
    trader jack December 31, 2016 at 3:15 pm #

    Joey:
    It just astounds me that birthers cannot seem to understand that every bit of their alleged “evidence” of forgery is 100% dependent on the analysis of an intentionally digitally manipulated image of a birth certificate ( intentionally manipulated to compress the file and to make the document easy to read on a computer screen) and 0% of their alleged “evidence” is derived from an examination of the orginal, vault edition, hard copy Certificate of Live Birth. The original document can be made available for inspection if a judge or the chairperson of a congressional investigative committee ordered it to be released for inspection.

    If in fact, the records do not get lost, or shredded in mistake, or just simply altered.

    you do notice that things seem to disappear out of the archives, don’t you?

  69. avatar
    Joey December 31, 2016 at 3:20 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I’ve been running around the Internet saying that the statute of limitations has run out on any act of forgery from April of 2011, so unless I am mistaken, there will never be any prosecution, and I can’t imagine what possible cause of action exists for a civil lawsuit. That leaves Congress. The new Congress is remarkably like the old Congress, two new Republican Senators and about 27 new Republican House members. I’m just not seeing a Congressional investigation.

    Statutes of Lmitations can be “tolled” (suspended) by the agreement of both parties. In order to get discovery and destroy the Zullo/Arpaio findings once and for all, attorneys for an Obama birth certifcate forgery defendant might agree to suspend the Statute of Limitations in order to achieve a final verdict to end birtherism forever.
    I never thought that Donald Trump could be elected so I’ve gone out of the predicting Washington DC politics business!

  70. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 31, 2016 at 3:25 pm #

    Mutual agreement cannot create standing.

    Joey: Statutes of Lmitations can be “tolled” (suspended) by the agreement of both parties.

  71. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 31, 2016 at 3:27 pm #

    Don’t be silly. Of course it can.

    trader jack: And the printer printed the signatures with three different dpi in the same signatures, which is impossible for a normal printer to do.

  72. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 31, 2016 at 3:30 pm #

    In your dreams.

    trader jack: Put anyone on this board on the stand with an attorney question him/her would be in tears in a short while,

  73. avatar
    bob December 31, 2016 at 3:31 pm #

    trader jack: You really do need to explore the law on births.If a child is delivered in the vehicle, when being delivered to the hospital, the hospital is shown as the place of birth.

    You really to start citing actual law. And not make stuff up, i.e., tell lies.

    You can not tell from the birth record where the child was delivered!

    Good thing a doctor attested to President Obama’s time and place of birth!

    trader jack: Put anyone on this board on the stand with an attorney question him/herwould be in tears in a short while

    Why would anyone here be examined about President Obama’s birth?

    trader jack: If infact, the records do not get lost, or shredded in mistake, or just simply altered.

    Yet again, “if” is doing all the work in traderjack’s innuendo.

    trader jack: Nope, he said there were discrepancies in the inspected document , but he could not say it was forged without looking at the original, which is not available for inspection

    Not available for inspection to Hayes. The HDOH’s records are available for inspection — provided there is a valid subpoena. It is unsurprising that birthers couldn’t get one in the last eight years.

  74. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater December 31, 2016 at 3:39 pm #

    john: Zullo was apparently right as he discovered that so so-called anomalies were inconclusive and couldn’t be replicated withany reliability or constistency. In other words, the Xerox replicated some of anomalies but not all and results were simply inconclusive. It was a rabbit hole set up by Obots that Zullo was chasing.

    Zullo claimed none of the so called anomalies could be reproduced with a machine process he was wrong with his original thesis

  75. avatar
    Joey December 31, 2016 at 3:40 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG.: If I remember right, didn’t they say they were leaving it with “a federal agency”?
    Which could be any one of them really. U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, EPA, FDA USDA, MILF…mighta made up that last one.

    Don’t forget DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) !

  76. avatar
    Joey December 31, 2016 at 3:46 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Zullo claimed none of the so called anomalies could be reproduced with a machine process he was wrong with his original thesis

    What Mike Zullo really MEANT to say was that ALL of the so-called anomalies can be reproduced with a machine process. And that includes those damning smiley faces and ukuleles that birthers see when they look at the PDF.

  77. avatar
    Pete December 31, 2016 at 3:55 pm #

    trader jack: Put anyone on this board on the stand with an attorney question him/herwould be in tears in a short while,

    Yes, from the utter freaking stupidity of any questions any birther lawyer might ask.

    Members of this blog, including a lot of us who haven’t formally studied law in a classroom at all, have routinely shredded the hell out of the idiotic arguments made by more than one birther lawyer.

    Including that moron Mario Apuzzo, who’s been laughed out of every courtroom he’s ever entered.

    Actually, I hate to say it, but moron Mario was probably one of the better ones.

  78. avatar
    Joey December 31, 2016 at 3:58 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Mutual agreement cannot create standing.

    I meant for a criminal proceeding on Zullo’s allegation of forgery. There are no issues of standing in a criminal proceeding. The latest that PDF could have been created is April 26, 2011 so the five year Statute of Limitations for forgery ran from that date until April 26, 2016 .
    Also the defense needs to raise standing as an issue on a dispositive motion.

  79. avatar
    Rickey December 31, 2016 at 4:29 pm #

    trader jack: You really do need to explore the law on births.If a child is delivered in the vehicle, when being delivered to the hospital, the hospital is shown as the place of birth. except , perhaps, when delivered over international waters on a vessel of foreign registry.

    You can not tell from the birth record where the child was delivered!

    Wrong again, which is unsurprising considering how often you are wrong. For example, from the State of Texas Birth Registration Handbook:

    If the mother is en route to the hospital and the child is born in a moving vehicle, the birth record should be completed to show the name of the city or town in which the facility of destination is located. “En route” should be shown followed by the name of the facility of destination.

    https://www.dshs.texas.gov/vs/field/docs/Birth-Registration-Handbook.pdf

    In Hawaii, a land-locked state, any newborn arriving at a Hawaii hospital would have to have been born in Hawaii. So another feeble attempt by you to discredit Obama’s birth certificate falls far short of the mark.

  80. avatar
    Rickey December 31, 2016 at 4:44 pm #

    gorefan: Poor Mike Volins will be going to Congress with only his pathetic Sheriff’s kits and Gillar’s silly video.It’s guaranteed Zullo won’t let him include the experts’ reports.

    Not to mention that Volin, like Cody Robert Judy, is an ex-con who served time in prison. Volin was convicted of first-degree robbery, a Class B felony, in 1996 and he served nearly two years in prison before being paroled.

    Volin admitted to RC that he has a criminal record. His prison record is available at the website for the New York State Department of Corrections.

  81. avatar
    alg December 31, 2016 at 5:09 pm #

    trader jack: Put anyone on this board on the stand with an attorney question him/herwould be in tears in a short while

    Well, nobody here on this board would ever find themselves on the witness stand in a birther trial.

    But the reality is there will never by a criminal trial because there is no evidence a crime has been committed. No local, state or federal law enforcement agency or prosecutor in the country is at all interested in this birther nonsense.

    Even in the case of soon to be former Sheriff Arpaio, his MCSO have never even attempted to investigate Obama’s birth certificate. The now-defunked Cold Case Posse wasn’t a law enforcement agency and had no authority or expertise to investigate anything.

  82. avatar
    JD Reed December 31, 2016 at 5:26 pm #

    john:
    You couldn’t reproduce the same results…..HAA!! That’s because you not Reed Hayes nor the experts in Italy nor do you have the original hard copy of the Ah’Nee Birth Certificate.

    And who does, John?

  83. avatar
    ellen December 31, 2016 at 5:36 pm #

    In about three weeks Donald Trump will begin reversing Obama’s executive orders and calling on Congress to repeal or amend Obama’s legislation. This is sad for me, since I supported Hillary. But consider the ramifications for the birthers.

    When Trump reverses or abolishes one of Obama’s executive orders that means that he considers that it is a real, valid executive order. But that is precisely what birthers claim it is not. They keep saying that since (they believe) Obama is not eligible, therefore his executive orders cannot be valid—-and since (they believe) he was never eligible, then those executive orders never existed. Yet, Trump will reverse or abolish those orders, meaning that they were indeed real and valid.

    It seems to me that maybe we can have a little fun to rag the birthers when those Trump changes to Obama’s executive orders take place. Perhaps we could go so far as to hint that if Trump abolishes or amends an executive order which could not possibly be valid (according to the birther view), he is doing something unconstitutional. Something along the lines of: “By abolishing or amending, Trump is stating that an unconstitutional order was actually constitutional, and that is in violation of his oath to support and defend the Constitution.”

    And the same for legislation, of course.

    Yes, of course Obama’s executive orders and the legislation he signed are perfectly legal and perfectly constitutional—but we can have some fun with the birthers by taking their position and insisting that Trump has violated fundamental principles by repealing or amending Obama’s orders and legislation.

    What do you think?

  84. avatar
    alg December 31, 2016 at 5:52 pm #

    ellen:
    What do you think?

    I don’t think birthers really give a rip about executive orders. I do think they will be disappointed that Trump doesn’t do anything to advance their birther midsummer night’s dream and that Congress continues to ignore them.

  85. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 31, 2016 at 6:03 pm #

    That’s not necessary. A judge may, and in fact has an obligation to dismiss a suit sua sponte if it is beyond the jurisdiction of the federal courts (i.e. no standing, etc.). For example Judge Carter dismissed Judd v. Obama sua sponte. Mutual consent of the parties does not create jurisdiction.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/10/carter-v-reid/

    Joey: Also the defense needs to raise standing as an issue on a dispositive motion.

  86. avatar
    bob December 31, 2016 at 6:33 pm #

    Joey is correct that the statute of limitations is an affirmative defense — it must be raised by the defendant. But you are correct that a court must dismiss if it lacks jurisdiction; statute of limitations, however, is not a jurisdictional issue.

  87. avatar
    ellen December 31, 2016 at 7:24 pm #

    Re: “he could not say it was forged without looking at the original, which is not available for inspection.”

    Actually, my friend Paul Strauss did get in touch with Reed Hayes, and that is not exactly what he said.

    He said that he HAD BEEN TOLD by Sheriff Joe that the original would not be available for inspection, and so he relied on that information. Although it seems a stretch, it is not yet perfectly clear that an accredited document examiner could not ask the White House to see the paper copy and be granted access to see it.

    Sheriff Joe and Zullo merely assumed that the physical copy would not be available. But that’s not good investigative technique at all. At the very least, an investigator should ASK to see the physical copy, and if refused, then say so, but Sheriff Joe did not do that—–Now, I wonder why not?

  88. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater December 31, 2016 at 8:20 pm #

    ellen: At the very least, an investigator should ASK to see the physical copy, and if refused, then say so, but Sheriff Joe did not do that—–Now, I wonder why not?

    Well that’s the funny part about this “investigation”. They didn’t even think to ask Hawaii until after they put that book on Amazon and had their first press conference. If Joe was serious he would have tried to get a court order.

  89. avatar
    CarlOrcas December 31, 2016 at 11:16 pm #

    john: RC is the real sissy of the group. He has never revealed his true name.

    What is your true, full name…..john?

  90. avatar
    alg December 31, 2016 at 11:16 pm #

    ellen: Sheriff Joe and Zullo merely assumed that the physical copy would not be available.But that’s not good investigative technique at all. At the very least, an investigator should ASK to see the physical copy, and if refused, then say so, but Sheriff Joe did not do that—–Now, I wonder why not?

    Good point. Neither Sheriff Joe, nor Commandant Zullo made any substantive effort under the terms of proper legal procedure to either examine the original or secure an official verification from the State of Hawaii. No search warrants, no subpoenas, no public records requests. Nothing. That’s because the MCSO didn’t actually conduct the “investigation” and the so-called Cold Case Posse had no authority to investigate anything.

    The only surefire way to find that a forgery had been committed would have been to ask the State of Hawaii. Neither Zullo, nor Arpaio did so.

  91. avatar
    Reality Check December 31, 2016 at 11:36 pm #

    We know Zullo and a deputy went to Hawaii and met with Jill Nagamine. We don’t know what was discussed or if they asked to examine anything. Rumor has it that the meeting was secretly recorded by Zullo.

    alg: The only surefire way to find that a forgery had been committed would have been to ask the State of Hawaii. Neither Zullo, nor Arpaio did so.

  92. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater December 31, 2016 at 11:38 pm #

    CarlOrcas: What is your true, full name…..john?

    I know exactly who he is. I think a lot of commenters here know who he is

  93. avatar
    Joey December 31, 2016 at 11:43 pm #

    alg: Neither Sheriff Joe, nor Commandant Zullo made any substantive effort under the terms of proper legal procedure to either examine the original or secure an official verification from the State of Hawaii.No search warrants, no subpoenas, no public records requests.Nothing.That’s because the MCSO didn’t actually conduct the “investigation” and the so-called Cold Case Posse had no authority to investigate anything.

    The only surefire way to find that a forgery had been committed would have been to ask the State of Hawaii.Neither Zullo, nor Arpaio did so.

    Sheriff Arpaio always knew that no alleged crime related to Barack Obama’s birth certificate had been committed in Maricopa County, Arizona. Therefore he never had jurisdiction to seek a court order or a subpoena that would be upheld as valid in Hawaii.
    And you are correct that a not-for-profit “educational” organization that is ancillary to the Sheriff’s Department had no authority to conduct an official law enforcement investigation using volunteer citizens. But the Cold Case Posse’ did raise alot of mobey for Arpaio’s election campaigns.

  94. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG December 31, 2016 at 11:49 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: I know exactly who he is.I think a lot of commenters here know who he is

    Think Doc would mind him being outed this late in the game?

  95. avatar
    Joey December 31, 2016 at 11:53 pm #

    Reality Check:
    We know Zullo and a deputy went to Hawaii and met with Jill Nagamine. We don’t know what was discussed or if they asked to examine anything. Rumor has it that the meeting was secretly recorded by Zullo.

    Here’s a 2013 Phoenix news report on Zullo in Hawaii: “MCSO birther posse: Our evidence is ironclad”
    http://www.cbs5az.com/story/19029890/arpaio-to-release-new-info-in-birther-flap-tuesday

  96. avatar
    Reality Check January 1, 2017 at 12:22 am #

    It would appear that the “ironclad” evidence now is not the same as the “ironclad” evidence was then.

    From the article I noticed that they got info on the expenses for the deputy.. $103 per diem for food is eating pretty high on the hog even for Hawaii. There must have been a few cocktails included.

    Joey: Here’s a 2013 Phoenix news report on Zullo in Hawaii: “MCSO birther posse: Our evidence is ironclad”
    http://www.cbs5az.com/story/19029890/arpaio-to-release-new-info-in-birther-flap-tuesday

  97. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater January 1, 2017 at 12:54 am #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: Think Doc would mind him being outed this late in the game?

    He’s not that hard to track. He used to post here under JY that’s how I came up with the name jybrator for him.

  98. avatar
    HistorianDude January 1, 2017 at 2:55 am #

    Reality Check:
    We know Zullo and a deputy went to Hawaii and met with Jill Nagamine. We don’t know what was discussed or if they asked to examine anything. Rumor has it that the meeting was secretly recorded by Zullo.

    Not a rumor. Parts of the secret recording were shown at the 2013 CSPOA meeting.

    On that note, the alleged tape recording of Corsi’s conversation with Verna K. Lee has also never been released. When asked by reporters to release it, Zullo said it was up to Sheriff Joe, and Joe said he’s think about it.

    Nothing was ever heard about it again.

  99. avatar
    HistorianDude January 1, 2017 at 3:00 am #

    trader jack: Put anyone on this board on the stand with an attorney question him/herwould be in tears in a short while,

    I’d take that bet.

  100. avatar
    HistorianDude January 1, 2017 at 3:07 am #

    trader jack: And the printer printed the signatures with three different dpi in the same signatures, which is impossible for a normal printer to do.

    You are confused, almost beyond salvation. The DPI at which a printer prints has nothing to with the DPI of the digital image being printed. These are completely different things.

    And the President’s PDF (though not the AP image, BTW) has components at two (not three) different resolutions as an ordinary result of the MRC optimization that even Zullo now admits was applied by the Xerox WorkCentre that scanned it.

    The real question could be answered if they would release the second copy of the certified copy that was provided to the white house, as that would enable the two to be compared for similarity.

    The real question has already been answered. And Zullo has failed spectacularly in his half decade long quest to challenge it.

  101. avatar
    HistorianDude January 1, 2017 at 3:17 am #

    trader jack: You really do need to explore the law on births.

    Done and done. This is how we know your next sentence is complete fiction.

    If a child is delivered in the vehicle, when being delivered to the hospital, the hospital is shown as the place of birth. except , perhaps, when delivered over international waters on a vessel of foreign registry.

    Please… show us this alleged law that says this? It doesn’t exit.

    I have in my files (I am my family’s historian) the birth certificate of a relative who was born on a train pulling into Chicago’s Union Station. The child and mother were immediately then taken to what would now be Northwestern Memorial Hospital. No hospital or attending physician is noted on the birth certificate. Only place of birth; Chicago, Illinois.

    You can not tell from the birth record where the child was delivered!

    The standard is where the child was born. Splitting hairs between “place of birth” and “place where delivered” as if they were two different things is… well… dumb.

  102. avatar
    HistorianDude January 1, 2017 at 3:24 am #

    john: Zullo was apparently right as he discovered that so so-called anomalies were inconclusive and couldn’t be replicated withany reliability or constistency.
    He has never said that. In point of fact he has admitted that the only thing he could not replicate once he had the right Xerox and software was the exact number of layer… getting withing one layer.

    In other words, the Xerox replicated some of anomalies but not all and results were simply inconclusive. It was a rabbit hole set up by Obots that Zullo was chasing.

    Ignoring the mixed metaphor, at this point Zullo is claiming no digital anomalies at all.

  103. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 1, 2017 at 8:13 am #

    THe US Model Vital Statistics Law, pretty much followed by all the states provides:

    When a birth occurs on a moving conveyance within the United States and the child is first removed from the conveyance in this State, the birth shall be registered in this State and the place where it is first removed shall be considered the place of birth. When a birth occurs on a moving conveyance while in international waters or air space or in a foreign country or its air space and the child is first removed from the conveyance in this State, the birth shall be registered in this State, but the certificate shall show the actual place of birth insofar as can be determined.

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/mvsact92b.pdf

    In 1961, Hawaii practice was specified in Section 5 of Chapter 8 of the Public Health Regulations, which states:

    Birth or death in a conveyance. When a birth, fetal death (stillbirth) or death occurs in a moving conveyance, a birth, fetal death or death certificate, as the case may be, shall be filed in the district in which the child or remains were first removed from the conveyance.

    http://health.hawaii.gov/opppd/files/2015/06/11-117.pdf

    A child born in international waters or airspace would, of course, have been removed from a conveyance prior to arriving at the hospital.

    HistorianDude: Please… show us this alleged law that says this? It doesn’t exit.

  104. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 1, 2017 at 8:43 am #

    RC can do what he wants to do, but no one is going to do it for him here.

    Mark McDaniel claimed that the birthers had figured out RC’s identity, but he wouldn’t disclose it to me. Zullo got the name “Richard Skalsky” from Dennis Montgomery, based a rather stupid domain ownership mistake.

    All I can say is that RC’s real name has never appeared on this blog, including comments.

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: Think Doc would mind him being outed this late in the game?

  105. avatar
    Northland10 January 1, 2017 at 8:46 am #

    ellen: In about three weeks Donald Trump will begin reversing Obama’s executive orders and calling on Congress to repeal or amend Obama’s legislation.

    At least the birthers will be happy when he replaces EO 13489, the executive order covering Presidential records. Of course, the birthers will not realize that Trump’s new order increases the restrictions on Presidential records substantially, just like they never noticed that 13489 removed the larger restrictions from the Bush era 13233 and basically restored EO 12667 from Reagan.

    None of these cover things like birth certificates or kindergarten records, despite the lamentations of the birthers.

    Trump could actually end up sealing more of Obama’s Presidential records than Obama sealed.

  106. avatar
    Reality Check January 1, 2017 at 9:13 am #

    I think the question referred to “john”. I know his real name but I don’t recall how I put the match together. He has commented on some news articles under his real name before but not here or on Blog Talk radio. I respect your policies so I will not reveal any more than that.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    RC can do what he wants to do, but no one is going to do it for him here.

    Mark McDaniel claimed that the birthers had figured out RC’s identity, but he wouldn’t disclose it to me. Zullo got the name “Richard Skalsky” from Dennis Montgomery, based a rather stupid domain ownership mistake.

    All I can say is that RC’s real name has never appeared on this blog, including comments.

  107. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater January 1, 2017 at 11:52 am #

    I came across this interview recently with Joe arpaio

    https://youtu.be/gqlEEHdaFFM

    What I found funny was at the 2:30 mark: arpaio talks about experts from his home country of Italy. Using birther logic that’s an admission that arpaio was born in Italy and is not a natural born citizen. Where are his immigration papers? Where is his certificate of naturalization?

  108. avatar
    CarlOrcas January 1, 2017 at 11:58 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: I know exactly who he is.I think a lot of commenters here know who he is

    Yes. I knew once and, frankly, stopped wasting the few active brain cells I have left keeping it on hand.

    The point was him complaining about people not using their real names is a hoot.

  109. avatar
    Rickey January 1, 2017 at 12:38 pm #

    Reality Check:
    I think the question referred to “john”. I know his real name but I don’t recall how I put the match together. He has commented on some news articles under his real name before but not here or on Blog Talk radio. I respect your policies so I will not reveal any more than that.

    It wasn’t that difficult, because he stupidly posted verbatim on his Facebook page (and elsewhere) things that he posted here. It appears that his Facebook page has been taken down. You’ll recall that he also told us who his Congressman was, which made it fairly easy to confirm his location.

    However, unlike the birthers we do not “out” people who prefer to keep their identity private. Just for the hell of it, I may post my full name during the last days of Obama Conspiracy Theories.

  110. avatar
    Rickey January 1, 2017 at 12:42 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:

    Mark McDaniel claimed that the birthers had figured out RC’s identity, but he wouldn’t disclose it to me. Zullo got the name “Richard Skalsky” from Dennis Montgomery, based a rather stupid domain ownership mistake.

    All I can say is that RC’s real name has never appeared on this blog, including comments.

    I know RC’s first name, because we had some e-mail exchanges about Mike Volin’s criminal history and he signed off with his first name, and he knows my full name.

    It’s interesting that investigator wannabe Zullo was never able to crack RC’s identity.

  111. avatar
    Joey January 1, 2017 at 1:05 pm #

    The Tea Party is on the case: “Fake Obama Birth Certificate Was An Inside Job”
    http://www.teaparty.org/fake-obama-birth-certificate-inside-job-208788/

  112. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG January 1, 2017 at 4:01 pm #

    Ah, the Pee Farty. Always good for a laugh.

  113. avatar
    trader jack January 1, 2017 at 4:59 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    THe US Model Vital Statistics Law, pretty much followed by all the states provides:

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/mvsact92b.pdf

    In 1961, Hawaii practice was specified in Section 5 of Chapter 8 of the Public Health Regulations, which states:

    http://health.hawaii.gov/opppd/files/2015/06/11-117.pdf

    A child born in international waters or airspace would, of course, have been removed from a conveyance prior to arriving at the hospital.

    http://www.dshs.texas.gov/vs/faq/birth.shtm
    If a child is born in an ambulance on the way to the hospital, who would responsible for filing the birth certificate?

    If can be confirmed by the hospital that the child was delivered in the vehicle and was not removed from the vehicle until they got to the hospital, the hospital would be responsible for filing the birth certificate. The birth certificate would state the child was born “En-route to facility” (item 7a) and facility were the child was first removed from the ambulance would be listed in the “Name of Hospital” section (7b).

  114. avatar
    Rickey January 1, 2017 at 5:55 pm #

    trader jack: http://www.dshs.texas.gov/vs/faq/birth.shtm
    If a child is born in an ambulance on the way to the hospital, who would responsible for filing the birth certificate?

    If can be confirmed by the hospital that the child was delivered in the vehicle and was not removed from the vehicle until they got to the hospital, the hospital would be responsible for filing the birth certificate. The birth certificate would state the child was born “En-route to facility” (item 7a) and facility were the child was first removed from the ambulance would be listed in the “Name of Hospital” section (7b).

    In other words, the birth certificate would show where the child was born (“en-route to the hospital”), which contradicts your earlier statement.

  115. avatar
    Arthur B. January 1, 2017 at 6:08 pm #

    Rickey: In other words, the birth certificate would show where the child was born (“en-route to the hospital”), which contradicts your earlier statement.

    Jeez, don’t you understand? If he could have been born in an ambulance, he could have been born in Kenya.

    How many times does that have to be explained to you?

  116. avatar
    Rickey January 1, 2017 at 6:34 pm #

    Arthur B.: Jeez, don’t you understand? If he could have been born in an ambulance, he could have been born in Kenya.

    Or he could have been born in Kenyan ambulance, which then immediately drove him to Honolulu.

  117. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 1, 2017 at 6:59 pm #

    Flown by helicopter to Hawaii so it could land on the roof of Kapi’olani.

    Rickey: Or he could have been born in Kenyan ambulance, which then immediately drove him to Honolulu.

  118. avatar
    Reality Check January 1, 2017 at 7:19 pm #

    We had a discussion at the Fogbow today as to whether some of the Phoenix reporters like Stephen Lemons might resubmit requests for financial and other information to the MCSO now that Sheriff Penzone is running things. I am not sure whether Doc had any requests pending other than the request for IRS form 990’s from the Cold Case Posse, which apparently do not exist.

    Since the birth certificate investigation is over I would think that the request to release the reports by Reed Hayes and the Italian firm might be in order. Information on the Seattle Operation would be interesting too.

  119. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater January 1, 2017 at 7:22 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Flown by helicopter to Hawaii so it could land on the roof of Kapi’olani.

    This is starting to sound a little like green eggs and ham

  120. avatar
    trader jack January 1, 2017 at 9:34 pm #

    :fantasy land

    Mother was having labor pains during flight form Vancouver to Hawaii, upon 25 miles before landing child was delivered over international ocean on the BOA airline, and upon arrival child was transported by public conveyance and upon arriving at hospital mother and child were transported to birthing center at hospital and treated by doctor who provided the birth certificate to the public health records making the child born at the hospital so Hawaii could claim an additional resident for public purposes, Upon bc reaching HDOH they noted born in flight over international water, and immediately amended birth certificate eliminating the notation which would affect the birth of the child in Hawaii.

    And that is what happened.

    Nope that is not what happened , but it could have happened and there is no way to prove it didn’t. Because they won’t let you see the original.

    LOL

  121. avatar
    Notorial Dissent January 1, 2017 at 10:14 pm #

    RC, you are right and the media could and should renew their information requests re the CCP, and its farcical goings on, however, I think that the MCSO will, and rightly so, say sorry has nothing and never had anything to do with us, go talk to them.

  122. avatar
    CarlOrcas January 1, 2017 at 10:40 pm #

    Notorial Dissent:
    RC, you are right and the media could and should renew their information requests re the CCP, and its farcical goings on, however, I think that the MCSO will, and rightly so, say sorry has nothing and never had anything to do with us, go talk to them.

    And, more to the point, I doubt there are any records anywhere that could be easily assembled without a subpoena for posse bank records and that sort of thing.

    Anything is possible but I just don’t see the state corporation folks or the county attorney getting excited about going after Zullo.

  123. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 2, 2017 at 8:36 am #

    How would the original tell you any more than the photocopy of the original?

    trader jack: Nope that is not what happened , but it could have happened and there is no way to prove it didn’t. Because they won’t let you see the original.

  124. avatar
    alg January 2, 2017 at 9:05 am #

    trader jack: Nope that is not what happened , but it could have happened and there is no way to prove it didn’t. Because they won’t let you see the original.

    Yeah, and on that very same basis I could conclude that trader jack is a pedophile. Yeah, I know I don’t have any evidence, but “it could have happened and there is no way to prove it didn’t.”

    TJ, we live in a country where people are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a trial before a jury of one’s peers. Just because some former blowhard sheriff and his used car salesman sidekick claim somebody did something wrong doesn’t mean it’s true. It’s their burden of proof and after five full years of “investigations” they failed miserably at that task.

    Upon examining the so-called “evidence” the Maricopa Prosecuting Attorney County called Zullo’s claims little more than “speculation.” At the same time, the Arizona Secretary of State, aided by the Arizona Attorney General’s Office and with a copy of a certified State of Hawaii verification, concluded that Obama’s LFBC was legit and he qualified for the Arizona ballot:

    http://www.abc15.com/news/state/former-arizona-secretary-of-state-ken-bennett-received-proof-of-obamas-hawaiian-birth-in-2012

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/post/arizona-secretary-of-state-ken-bennett-satisfied-obama-was-born-in-united-states/2012/05/23/gJQAN1czkU_blog.html?utm_term=.4ec7b14d5925

  125. avatar
    JD Reed January 2, 2017 at 10:45 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    How would the original tell you any more than the photocopy of the original?

    Doc you made a huge mistake.That’s talking facts and logic to Trader.

  126. avatar
    bob January 2, 2017 at 2:09 pm #

    This clip from the latest episode of Freedom Friday suggests that Gallups has read this article.

  127. avatar
    Rickey January 2, 2017 at 2:12 pm #

    trader jack:
    :
    Mother was having labor pains during flight form Vancouver to Hawaii, upon 25 miles before landing child was delivered over international ocean on the BOA airline, and upon arrival child was transported by public conveyance and upon arriving at hospital mother and child were transported to birthing center at hospital and treated by doctor who provided the birth certificate to the public health records making the child born at the hospital so Hawaii could claim an additional resident for public purposes, Upon bc reaching HDOH they noted born in flight over international water, and immediately amended birth certificate eliminating the notation which would affect the birth of the child in Hawaii.

    And that is what happened.

    Nope that is not what happened , but it could have happened and there is no way to prove it didn’t. Because they won’t let you see the original.

    And how would they have gotten Dr. Sinclair to sign off as the attendant? His signature is proof that the birth took place in the hospital. A doctor could lose his license to practice medicine by knowingly signing a false document.

    And a child does not have to be born in a state to be claimed “as an additional resident for public purposes,” whatever those purposes might be.

    fantasy land

    Congratulations, you finally got something right.

  128. avatar
    Pete January 2, 2017 at 2:57 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: RC can do what he wants to do, but no one is going to do it for him here.

    Nobody’s going to out RC.

    Unless, of course, RC decides to publicly reveal his name, which I doubt, since he hasn’t done so over the years of speculation by birthers.

    I think Andrew’s question was whether you would mind somebody outing john.

    For the most part, I think anti-birthers (unlike birthers) have been pretty respectful of people’s privacy.

  129. avatar
    Pete January 2, 2017 at 3:03 pm #

    Rickey: And how would they have gotten Dr. Sinclair to sign off as the attendant? His signature is proof that the birth took place in the hospital. A doctor could lose his license to practice medicine by knowingly signing a false document.

    And a child does not have to be born in a state to be claimed “as an additional resident for public purposes,” whatever those purposes might be.

    Congratulations, you finally got something right.

    Now if he could only identify the rest of his fantasies as such.

  130. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 2, 2017 at 4:42 pm #

    “John” has the same right to privacy as anyone else. I see he did get a shoutout at WorldNetDaily and has been outed at The Fogbow.

    Pete: I think Andrew’s question was whether you would mind somebody outing john.

  131. avatar
    Joey January 2, 2017 at 6:37 pm #

    trader jack:
    :fantasy land

    Mother was having labor pains during flight form Vancouver to Hawaii, upon 25 miles before landing child was delivered over international ocean on the BOA airline, and upon arrival child was transported by public conveyance and upon arriving at hospital mother and child were transported to birthing center at hospital and treated by doctor who provided the birth certificate to the public health records making the child born at the hospital so Hawaii could claim an additional resident for public purposes, Upon bc reaching HDOH they noted born in flight over international water, and immediately amended birth certificate eliminating the notation which would affect the birth of the child in Hawaii.

    And that is what happened.

    Nope that is not what happened , but it could have happened and there is no way to prove it didn’t. Because they won’t let you see the original.
    LOL

    It just astounds me that Trader Jack keeps telling the same lie over and over again (“they won’t let you see the original”) as if no one posting in this forum will notice.
    The state of Hawaii provides ways under its laws (HRS 338-18) for an original birth certificate to be inspected. A judge’s court order or a congressional subpoena can do the trick.
    The fact is that birthers are just too stupid and inept to figure out ways to inspect the original in accordance with Hawaii law.

  132. avatar
    Rickey January 2, 2017 at 6:53 pm #

    Pete:

    For the most part, I think anti-birthers (unlike birthers) have been pretty respectful of people’s privacy.

    Agreed. We know who Cody Robert Judy is and who Nancy Ruth Owens is, and we know where they live, but to my knowledge no one at Obama Conspiracy Theories has ever harassed them. Ditto with “John,” Mike Volin and others.

  133. avatar
    Northland10 January 2, 2017 at 7:12 pm #

    trader jack:
    Mother was having labor pains during flight form Vancouver to Hawaii, upon 25 miles before landing child was delivered over international ocean on the BOA airline, and upon arrival child was transported by public conveyance and upon arriving at hospital mother and child were transported to birthing center at hospital and treated by doctor who provided the birth certificate to the public health records making the child born at the hospital so Hawaii could claim an additional resident for public purposes, Upon bc reaching HDOH they noted born in flight over international water, and immediately amended birth certificate eliminating the notation which would affect the birth of the child in Hawaii.

    And that is what happened.

    Except that BOAC did not fly from Vancouver to Hawaii back then. She would have had to connect to San Francisco on a different airline and then fly to Hawaii on BOAC.

    http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/ba60/ba60-02.jpg

    The Free Republic story claimed she flew to Vancouver and then went to Seattle to start school.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2857292/replies?c=48

    You can’t seem to repeat baseless claims without mistakes.

  134. avatar
    Reality Check January 2, 2017 at 8:28 pm #

    Some Birthers were technically “outed” but it was mostly through their own actions. One that comes to mind is Sharon Meroni, aka Chalice, from Barrington, IL. She was a big time Birther who was outed when she filed a crazy suit against President Obama in Illinois. She posted her motion but didn’t properly redact her name. She also tried unsuccessfully to prevent a member of the Fogbow from publishing a copy of her lawsuit obtained from the court there.

    When you start playing in the courts your name is fair game.

    It’s amazing how many Birthers have criminal or otherwise checkered legal backgrounds. Without even looking it up I can name Walter Fitzpatrick, Cody Judy, Pastor Manning, and Mike Volin who are all convicted felons. John Dummett who was a Birther candidate and plaintiff is in some sort of legal difficulty in California right now. Rudy Davis has had visits from the Secret Service for saying he would hang the President on YouTube. Charles Edward Lincoln was disbarred in one or two states and borrowed someones social security number (for real unlike Barack Obama who didn’t). Orly Taitz was sanctioned $20,000 in Georgia.

    I could go on but you get the idea.

    Rickey: Agreed. We know who Cody Robert Judy is and who Nancy Ruth Owens is, and we know where they live, but to my knowledge no one at Obama Conspiracy Theories has ever harassed them. Ditto with “John,” Mike Volin and others.

  135. avatar
    dunstvangeet January 2, 2017 at 10:39 pm #

    Reality Check: Some Birthers were technically “outed” but it was mostly through their own actions. One that comes to mind is Sharon Meroni, aka Chalice, from Barrington, IL. She was a big time Birther who was outed when she filed a crazy suit against President Obama in Illinois. She posted her motion but didn’t properly redact her name. She also tried unsuccessfully to prevent a member of the Fogbow from publishing a copy of her lawsuit obtained from the court there.

    Ah, yes. The famous suit where Sharon Maroni accused people running Politijab of harassing her by stealing her mail, and trying to sell her meat when everybody knew that she was a vegetarian.

    By the way, that still remains one of my favorite insane rants by birthers.

  136. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG January 2, 2017 at 10:54 pm #

    dunstvangeet: By the way, that still remains one of my favorite insane rants by birthers.

    My favorite Birther rant was Falcon’s famous claim that Obama and everyone who voted for him would be hunted down and dealt with, when Romney wins the 2012 presidential election.

  137. avatar
    Pete January 3, 2017 at 12:47 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    “John” has the same right to privacy as anyone else. I see he did get a shoutout at WorldNetDaily and has been outed at The Fogbow.

    I’m half tempted to bop over there just to see who he is, out of curiosity.

    I probably won’t, though. Not really worth the keystrokes.

  138. avatar
    Pete January 3, 2017 at 12:49 am #

    Rickey: Agreed. We know who Cody Robert Judy is and who Nancy Ruth Owens is, and we know where they live, but to my knowledge no one at Obama Conspiracy Theories has ever harassed them. Ditto with “John,” Mike Volin and others.

    Frankly, I’ve tried to give most of these people some charitable good advice that would make their lives a little bit better, if only they would listen to it.

  139. avatar
    Pete January 3, 2017 at 12:51 am #

    Reality Check: I could go on but you get the idea.

    You forgot (perhaps soon-to-be) Jailbird Joe Arpaio.

  140. avatar
    Joey January 3, 2017 at 1:36 am #

    Reality Check:
    Some Birthers were technically “outed” but it was mostlythrough their own actions. One that comes to mind is Sharon Meronied. Doc], aka Chalice, from Barrington, IL. She was a big time Birther who was outed when she filed a crazy suit against President Obama in Illinois. She posted her motion but didn’t properly redact her name. She also tried unsuccessfully to prevent a member of the Fogbow from publishing a copy of her lawsuit obtained from the court there.

    When you start playing in the courts your name is fair game.

    It’s amazing how many Birthers have criminal or otherwise checkered legal backgrounds. Without even looking it up I can name Walter Fitzpatrick, Cody Judy, Pastor Manning, and Mike Volin who are all convicted felons. John Dummett who was a Birther candidate and plaintiff is in some sort of legal difficulty in California right now. Rudy Davis has had visits from the Secret Service for saying he would hang the President on YouTube. Charles Edward Lincoln was disbarred in one or two states and borrowed someones social security number (for real unlike Barack Obama who didn’t). Orly Taitz was sanctioned $20,000 in Georgia.

    I could go on but you get the idea.

    I just recently (12/17) had blog interactions with birther “Butterdezillion,” [Redacted. Doc]. She is now accusing the Obama administration or anti-birthers of sabotaging her family van and causing the death of her husband.
    Here’s an example of the latest from Butterdezillion, enjoy! “The Ah Nee BC also has a digit in the file number that overlaps another digit, which is impossible to do with a mechanical number stamp. And Alvin Onaka’s signature stamp is a bad attempt at matching his signature from the Peter Kema BC stamp which is from around the same time period. Onaka’s signature NEVER looks like the signature on Ah Nee’s BC.

    This is more than likely another forgery that Loretta Fuddy ordered her people to create, to obscure the BC numbering discrepancy with Obama’s BC#. We know that the HDOH created at least one forgery and then certified it, because Virginia Sunahara’s death certificate is a STATE OF HAWAII certificate but somebody went to extra lengths to take out the file number that was on that death certificate and replace it with “T.H. File No”. T.H. stands for Territory of Hawaii. That death certificate showed Sunahara’s BC# as being very out of sync also.

    They were messing with these BC#’s because they were trying to make it seem that the BC’s were numbered alphabetically. We know that they altered the birth database because when I asked for a copy of Sunahara’s birth certificate I was told there wasn’t one. Because Sunahara wasn’t recognized as being about Obama, the request was sent through normal channels instead of directed to Janice Okubo so she could obfuscate (which one clerk told me is their protocol; everything about Obama went through Okubo, and that includes everything about the birth index). The clerk went through the normal procedures, looking in the database, and did NOT find Sunahara’s name in the birth list. Sunahara’s name was removed from the birth database during that period of time. The clerk didn’t know it was about Obama so she gave me an honest answer that revealed the database had been manipulated. (We also know that the paper birth index was manipulated because it had the birth names for two adopted boys – which is not the case for other adopted children. They wanted us to see those boys’ birth names because one of them is in the newspaper announcements right under Obama’s supposed birth announcement.)

    So we know they were forging and then certifying paper records at the HDOH and we know they were falsifying both the paper birth index and the birth database. IOW, there is ZERO integrity in anything they’ve done. As I’ve said elsewhere, the “verifications” to AZ and KS SOS’s and to MDEC for a court case were stamped with Loretta Fuddy’s “director’s seal”, which is only allowable to certify HER signature. Her signature was not on those verifications; Onaka’s stamp was. Onaka apparently refused to certify the verifications so Fuddy used her seal to make it APPEAR that they were legally certified when they weren’t – knowing that the only lawful reason for Onaka to refuse to certify is if the birth claims requested to be verified were not made on a legally-valid BC. IOW, Fuddy knew there was no legally valid BC and that Onaka would therefore not certify a verification (another HDOH official also told a colleague that they could never issue a verification for Obama and the AG’s office would not let them issue verifications for ANYBODY because that would make it obvious why they wouldn’t issue one for Obama). The AZ SOS had said he would put Obama on the ballot as long as they received ANYTHING, so Fuddy illegally used her seal to deceive at least 2 SOS’s (and probably more like 50…), the judge in the MDEC case, Congress, and the American public.

    So we’ve got an HDOH-forged BC (Ah Nee), an HDOH-forged death certificate (Sunahara), 3 illegally-stamped “verifications” to deceive the entire legal system, an altered birth index, and proof of a manipulated birth database. Seven instances of illegal activity by the HDOH.

    All to hide the BC# discrepancy with Obama and the now-indirectly-verified-by-Onaka FACT that Obama has NO legally valid BC in Hawaii (which Obama’s friend Gov Neil Abercrombie also told his friend Mike Evans directly and told a Honolulu ADvertiser columnist indirectly).

    But in spite of all that, their deception hit a snag: the CDC’s protocols for that time period were found and the Honolulu registrar was interviewed. The system documented as in use for the CDC at that time would not allow for the numbering system they had decided to try to change everything to fit. So they’ve got 7 crimes under their belts and STILL don’t have BC#’s that work.

    And when I was put into contact with Lt Col Lakin’s legal team (for his court-martial) to present the evidence of HDOH tampering which would have overcome the “presumption of regularity” (presuming that officials act truthfully unless and until there is compelling evidence otherwise) and thus forced the original records to be examined, the sheathing on the wiring of my husband’s van was cut the NEXT DAY. About a week later my computer was hit with a trojan, and shortly after that Denise Lind ruled that foreign combat orders don’t have to be approved by the POTUS to be “lawful” (thus denying Lakin any chance to defend himself and get discovery).

    And there is much, much, much more – and worse – that’s been done. If America has ears to hear, there are plenty of us willing to talk. But a nation that won’t abide the truth is stuck with lies, and that is the America of the past 8 years. We will see if it is the America of 2016 and beyond.”

  141. avatar
    Reality Check January 3, 2017 at 8:38 am #

    I congratulate whoever did the analysis in the article. I finally got around to reading it in full and looking at the images closely. For fun I looked at some of the same boxes in the AP higher resolution photo that Doc has linked here and the differences are even more pronounced.

  142. avatar
    Northland10 January 3, 2017 at 9:03 am #

    Pete: Frankly, I’ve tried to give most of these people some charitable good advice that would make their lives a little bit better, if only they would listen to it.

    Yep. I’ve done the same myself and it falls on deaf ears. I have even made suggestions to Cody about focusing his comments, but he ignores it.

    The problem with Cody, and some of the known Birthers, is that they are more interested in the attention than anything else.

  143. avatar
    Pete January 3, 2017 at 2:48 pm #

    Oh, dear. Poor Butterdezillion.

    I do feel sorry for some of these people.

  144. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater January 3, 2017 at 3:31 pm #

    Pete:
    Oh, dear. Poor Butterdezillion.

    I do feel sorry for some of these people.

    Does Tracy Fair still exist?

  145. avatar
    Crustacean January 3, 2017 at 4:15 pm #

    “Your declarations are irrelevant, and you look foolish.”

    Couldn’t have said it better myself, Carl…

    bob: This clip from the latest episode of Freedom Friday suggests that Gallups has read this article.

  146. avatar
    Rickey January 3, 2017 at 4:29 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Does Tracy Fair still exist?

    I took a look at the “Birthers A to Z” list and it is significant that only a handful of them are still birthing.

    The most recent Birther Scorecard that I can find shows the they went 0-226 in court cases. That may not have included Cody Robert Judy’s last SCOTUS failure.

  147. avatar
    Reality Check January 3, 2017 at 6:08 pm #

    If you look at the Birther Aggregator link below you can get an idea of which Birther blogs are still active. Sam Sewell is still posting a little as is Gary Wilmott.

    Rickey: I took a look at the “Birthers A to Z” list and it is significant that only a handful of them are still birthing.

  148. avatar
    Dave B. January 3, 2017 at 6:17 pm #

    She’s posting nonsense on Quora.

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Does Tracy Fair still exist?

  149. avatar
    JD Reed January 4, 2017 at 12:41 pm #

    A great irony about Arpaio’s career is that his predecessor’s acting in a high-handed, authoritarian manner not unlike Arpaio himself, appears to have provided the opening to start Arpaio’s long controversial tenure as sheriff.

    http://archive.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/20110814buddhist-temple-murders-west-valley-impact.html

    Tom Agnos was beaten by Arpaio after Agnos’s deputies bungled the investigation of a 1991 massacre at a Buddhist temple, according to the AZ Central article. After long and aggressive interrogation, suspects known as the Tucson Four caved and confessed, but later recanted. But then one of the murder weapons was discovered, implicating the two actual culprits, high school students who had executed nine people at the temple in the course of testing their commando skills.
    In a Forensic Files TV segment about the massacre, the then-prosecutor said the sheriff didn’t want to let go of the inititial, wrongfully charged, suspects. The prosecutor said he reminded the sheriff there was no remaining evidence against the Tucson Four. He was shocked at the lawman’ reply: Leave them in jail until we find the evidence!
    This episode cost Maricopa County a seven-figure settlement, an example that Arpaio followed.