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The occasional open thread: give me liberty or give me more liberty edition

Put your Obama conspiracy comments that don’t relate to the current articles here while you still have the liberty to do so. This thread will close in two weeks.

As my high school Civics teacher was fond of pointing out: there is a difference between liberty and license. Nobody understood what he meant.

177 Responses to The occasional open thread: give me liberty or give me more liberty edition

  1. avatar
    Pete December 4, 2016 at 4:43 am #

    I never cease to be amazed at the endless parade of ignorant birthers who proceed to lecture, with complete falsehood, people who actually understand what they’re talking about.

  2. avatar
    Rickey December 4, 2016 at 6:44 pm #

    Pete:
    I never cease to be amazed at the endless parade of ignorant birthers who proceed to lecture, with complete falsehood, people who actually understand what they’re talking about.

    If they didn’t believe in falsehoods they wouldn’t be birthers.

  3. avatar
    JPotter December 5, 2016 at 9:05 am #

    Behold (yet again) the unfortunate combination of fake news and loose firearms:

    N.C. man told police he went to D.C. pizzeria with assault rifle to ‘self-investigate’ election-related conspiracy theory

    “A North Carolina man was arrested Sunday after he walked into a popular pizza restaurant in Northwest Washington carrying an assault rifle and fired one or more shots, D.C. police said. The man told police he had come to the restaurant to “self-investigate” a false election-related conspiracy theory involving Hillary Clinton that spread online during her presidential campaign…”

  4. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG. December 5, 2016 at 4:20 pm #

    JPotter: Behold (yet again) the unfortunate combination of fake news and loose firearms:

    And the usual suspects are already doing damage control “He’s an actor!” “It was staged!” “George Soros!”

  5. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 5, 2016 at 7:38 pm #

    Birther JB Williams has a new birther article at Right Side News:

    http://www.rightsidenews.com/editorial/us-opinion-and-editorial/birthers-still-issue/

    Quote: “It had much more to do with the fact that when Obama was challenged on his eligibility, he chose to issue not one, but three different ‘Certification of Live Birth’ documents, none of which were a ‘Birth Certificate’ and all of which turned out to be forgeries.”

  6. avatar
    Lupin December 6, 2016 at 11:48 am #

    JPotter: Behold (yet again) the unfortunate combination of fake news and loose firearms:

    The American Constitution was designed by wise men who could handle free speech, weapons and democracy and believed their citizenry could do so as well..

    A case can be made that this is no longer the case today.

  7. avatar
    Keith December 6, 2016 at 6:48 pm #

    Lupin: The American Constitution was designed by wise men who could handle free speech, weapons and democracy and believed their citizenry could do so as well..

    A case can be made that this is no longer the case today.

    Updated question about the limits of free speech: Full Frontal with Samantha Bee

    Is it OK to yell “ISIS” in a crowded theater full of heavily armed Trump supporting KKK members?

  8. avatar
    Lupin December 7, 2016 at 2:45 am #

    Keith: Updated question about the limits of free speech: Full Frontal with Samantha Bee

    Is it OK to yell “ISIS” in a crowded theater full of heavily armed Trump supporting KKK members?

    I love that show. The best successor to Jon Stewart.

  9. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG. December 7, 2016 at 4:01 pm #

    No update in almost three months, nearly all of the original regular posters are gone, and the admin is nowhere to be found. Is it too early to run an obit for BR? :3
    I still wonder if birdboy was also the admin, as they seemed to take sabbaticals at the same time.

  10. avatar
    gorefan December 8, 2016 at 12:33 pm #

    This may have been missed but back in September Hagmann and Hagmann had a guy named Rex on and he has conspiracy theory about Director Fuddy’s death. I didn’t listen to the whole thing but it sounds like he wasted a lot of time doing “research”.

    BTW, his colleague is Butterdezillion.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?ebc=ANyPxKr63FPDorQOLl5pZFGnyl1cFnKCTF9c6eb8qgL5mMBm_QWzQjRAFU8K4Dv2vaRF5Ks3cHZZtX8QaZbXDtLCiRq3vuvnfA&v=b03w-a2AjR8

  11. avatar
    Rickey December 8, 2016 at 1:15 pm #

    Conspiracy Theorist Arrested for Death Threats Against Sandy Hook Parent

    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/conspiracy-theorist-arrested-death-threats-against-sandy-hook-parent-n693396

  12. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG. December 8, 2016 at 3:07 pm #

    Rickey:
    Conspiracy Theorist Arrested for Death Threats Against Sandy Hook Parent

    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/conspiracy-theorist-arrested-death-threats-against-sandy-hook-parent-n693396

    Notice that it’s never these dangerous conspiracy theorists who end up the corpse in a “Well, the suspect looked armed and dangerous, so I shot to kill!” scenarios. They end up safely in custody, and will live to cause more pain and torment again.

  13. avatar
    JPotter December 8, 2016 at 4:20 pm #

    “No update in almost three months, nearly all of the original regular posters are gone, and the admin is nowhere to be found. Is it too early to run an obit for BR? :3”

    While I’d like to think I made some valuable contributions to the refutation of PDF madness back in the day, my finest anti-birther moment was provoking that dimwit to post a photo of someone tumbling a server out of a random car trunk as proof of having invested in some new IT architecture. Good times!

    While the current rash of deranged loons acting out their own self-radicalization is alarming, this is the price we will pay for getting the issue onto the front burner. Until several someones do some really stupid and unfortunate things, rationals will continue assuming such mind viruses are harmless.

    Just hope the body count remains small. There’s no effective difference between the present online swill and the crap that has stoked paranoid reactionary nuts for decades (centuries?). Just a different degree of dilution. 🙁

  14. avatar
    Lupin December 9, 2016 at 4:14 am #

    America’s toxic influence continues to spread overseas:

    Boycott comes as rightwing website plans to launch new services in France and Germany in time for pivotal 2017 elections

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/08/breitbart-looks-to-france-and-germany-another-alt-right-victory-steve-bannon

    They obviously haven’t studied our laws on hate speech, or else they’ll have to operate from abroad and use “fronts” domiciled in third-world countries to escape prosecution, like other homegrown sites of the same ilk:

    http://www.lemonde.fr/politique/article/2016/05/20/la-fachosphere-s-expatrie_4923247_823448.html

    The irony of course if that your country is being destroyed by fake news site piloted by Russian and other East European intelligence services so the chickens have already come home to roost.

    The notion that you could fight toxic ideas with mere words will be carved on your tombstone.

  15. avatar
    Scientist December 9, 2016 at 9:14 am #

    An interesting idea to stop Trump by actually following the clear intent of the Framers http://www.hamiltonelectors.com/.

    Probably will be unsuccessful due to lack of guts on the part of most electors, but they are raising money to cover any fines assessed against electors who do this.

  16. avatar
    dunstvangeet December 9, 2016 at 10:54 am #

    I disagree with Trump as much as anybody, and this election is a prime reason why we need to get rid of the electoral college (it’s not needed anymore), but I disagree with anybody trying to stop Trump by ramping up faithless electors. The people of the State should have their voices heard, and live with those consequences. Encouraging Faithless Electors is actually going against the Democratic ideals, especially the thing that the two people in Colorado are suing to be able to do (which is vote for a different candidate which recieved none of the votes in the General Election).

    Ultimately, these people were elected by people voting for Trump. These people should now have to live with Trump.

  17. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG December 9, 2016 at 11:37 am #

    dunstvangeet: These people should now have to live with Trump

    Yup. They $#@! the bed, now they have to sleep in it.

  18. avatar
    Scientist December 9, 2016 at 12:01 pm #

    dunstvangeet:
    I disagree with Trump as much as anybody, and this election is a prime reason why we need to get rid of the electoral college (it’s not needed anymore), but I disagree with anybody trying to stop Trump by ramping up faithless electors.The people of the State should have their voices heard, and live with those consequences.Encouraging Faithless Electors is actually going against the Democratic ideals, especially the thing that the two people in Colorado are suing to be able to do (which is vote for a different candidate which recieved none of the votes in the General Election).

    Ultimately, these people were elected by people voting for Trump.These people should now have to live with Trump.

    But the entire purpose of the EC is to check the people’s will. That’s very clear in the Federalist Papers, especially Hamilton. That doesn’t mean they should ignore the people, but when a potentially dangerous person is involved, especially when they lost the popular vote by a substantial margin, that is where they need to think very hard,

    If they are simply an automatic rubber stamp, then they are useless-a waste of time and money. Like you I would favor abolishing the EC, but since they still exist they ought to do the job they were intended to do, which is decide whether the President-elect is a danger to the Republic and if they believe he or she could be, to debate that and think long and hard.

  19. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 9, 2016 at 1:25 pm #

    I’m not going to take a position. It is up to the Electors to decide who they are going to vote for.

    I wonder, though, if Congress would challenge the votes of “faithless electors” when it met to certify the results.

    Scientist: An interesting idea to stop Trump by actually following the clear intent of the Framers http://www.hamiltonelectors.com/.

  20. avatar
    roadburner December 9, 2016 at 1:36 pm #

    i was chatting over lunch with my father, and the election naturally came up. while we were talking, something sort of started to take form which i ran by him, and he thought it was a possibility.

    no conspiracy theory here, just bouncing a possible scenario where the final objective was…..

    president pense

    now, trump was elected by a large proportion of the voting populus who were sick to death of the political status quo, and wanted a radical shakeup. the GOP really didn’t have anyone viable to challenge hillary with except trump, so they tapped into that discontent and gave trump his head, and let him go, and he pushed the buttons that the ones they needed to reach wanted pushed.

    – wall along the mexican border
    – wiping out obamacare immediately
    – prosecuting hillary
    – extreme vetting of muslims

    and at the same time promising to buck the establishment, end corruption, and not play with big business.

    so here we are a month later, and it seems that now the GOP heads have taken him aside and said “donald, the wall is not going to happen and the best you’ll get is a fence, you cannot wipe out the ACA because we need something to build an alternative on, you cannot prosecute hillary for something she hasn’t done, and picking on one particualr religion will get you jumped on constitutionally” – so he’s had to back off on those promises much to the chagrin of his supporters.

    then we have his tax records which could be coming out, and the allegations with the trump foundation, and the recent settlement for fraud with trump university. honestly, i don’t think the GOP would have considered him serious with that little mess hanging around.

    plus he seems to be stepping on his dick so much he’ll soon look like he has a beaver in his pants. no blind trust for the trump empire, ivanka in meetings where she shouldn’t be, breaches of protocol, etc.

    could he open himself up for impeachment soon after taking office? he possibly could if his ego overrides common sense which is a possibility with him. if he did, and the GOP wanted pense at the helm, he’d be out the door pretty fast, and the government has more money to fight any lawsuit he launched than he could dream of having.

    the people who elected him wouldn’t be too sore because of his broken promises, and the establishment figures he has proposed to work for him (including an ex executive of goldman sachs which is ironic considering his complaints about them) and would think `sellout!’, and get behind the next best thing which was pense.

    now this is not a conspiracy theory, just an idea….a possible scenario.

    please feel free to dissect and say why it couldn’t happen, as this is just the thoughts of a motorcycle mechanic with a second rate education.

  21. avatar
    Rickey December 9, 2016 at 2:40 pm #

    roadburner:

    please feel free to dissect and say why it couldn’t happen, as this is just the thoughts of a motorcycle mechanic with a second rate education.

    It would be the first time that a president was impeached by his own party (the Republicans impeached Andrew Johnson, but he was a Democrat who ran with Lincoln on a unity ticket), which makes it unlikely. It would be fascinating to see, though. Would the Senate Democrats vote to convict him? Maybe not, if they calculated that Trump would be easier than Pence to beat in 2020. The Republicans could impeach Trump without any support from Democrats, but they would need 15 Democrats to vote for conviction in the Senate (I’m assuming that the Republican will win the runoff in Louisiana tomorrow).

  22. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 9, 2016 at 2:58 pm #

    I have my doubts.

    roadburner: then we have his tax records which could be coming out

  23. avatar
    Scientist December 9, 2016 at 3:01 pm #

    Doc: For some reason I can’t get the Quote button on your post to work.

    I suppose Congress could challenge those votes. But then what would happen? If that would take Trump below 270, then the election would go to the House, I think, and the Constitution allows them to pick between the top 3 candidates as far as EVs. And since those faithless electors would vote for someone other than Trump or Hillary, that person would be in the running (though they might not all vote for the same person).

    It would be a strange and very interesting situation.

  24. avatar
    Crustacean December 9, 2016 at 4:43 pm #

    Sure, if you mean “interesting” as in the curse, “may you live in interesting times.”

    Scientist: It would be a strange and very interesting situation.

  25. avatar
    Rickey December 9, 2016 at 4:56 pm #

    The quote function wasn’t working for me yesterday, then it was working earlier today, and now it isn’t working again.

    i don’t see it happening, but If enough electors refused to vote for Trump and it went to the House, I believe that the House would take the easy way out and elect Trump.

  26. avatar
    justlw December 9, 2016 at 5:58 pm #

    Since the topic of the lead article is truthiness and the debunking thereof, I thought I’d report this, although the main reason is because it’s hilarious.

    December 9, 2016

    President-elect Donald J. Trump today announced that during a meeting with former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani on November 29, 2016, Mayor Giuliani removed his name from consideration for a position in the new administration.

    This is wonderful in so many ways. First of all, this would seem to be the sort of thing the person actually removing himself would announce. Second, backdating it seems odd. “Hey, did we forget to mention that we’re dropping Giuliani in the most humiliating way we can Giuliani has regretfully decided totally on his own to, in a break with literally decades of limelight hogging and power-slurping, let himself out the back door?”

    But the best part is a tweet from BBC reporter Jon Sopel:

    Big blow to #RudyGiuliani who told me 2 nights ago when I interviewed him at Colombian Embassy how much he wanted #SecretaryOfState job

    So once again, for about, oh, the millionth time I can think of, Trump has decided to go with a lie that was probably added because at the moment it sounded really good to him, didn’t have that big a payoff in the grand scheme of things, and turned out to be incredibly easy to expose.

    “How marvelous.”

  27. avatar
    Lupin December 10, 2016 at 4:33 am #

    roadburner: i was chatting over lunch with my father, and the election naturally came up. while we were talking, something sort of started to take form which i ran by him, and he thought it was a possibility.

    no conspiracy theory here, just bouncing a possible scenario where the final objective was…..

    president pense

    Trump is a very useful idiot. Why would they impeach him?

    They will control all three branches, including the Supreme Court. May i remind you that all the atrocities committed in Chile by Pinochet were deemed lawful by their Supreme Court.

    You will have no recourse when 50 years of progressive agenda will be destroyed in the next 4 years. It will all be perfectly legal, or else.

  28. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG December 10, 2016 at 12:32 pm #

    With BR effectively dead, oily taint moving onto having bipolar over everything Trump does and Smith becoming obsessed with “pizza gate”, no Birther site even talks about birtherism anymore.
    I’m surprised the remaining squatters at BR aren’t giddybabout December 15th, maybe they know it’s over.

  29. avatar
    trader jack December 10, 2016 at 4:19 pm #

    Lupin: You will have no recourse when 50 years of progressive agenda will be destroyed in the next 4 years. It will all be perfectly legal, or else

    Just, perhaps, the 50 years of progressive agenda did not turn out to be what the populace wanted.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-al-sharpton/a-progressive-agenda-must_b_7307672.html

    I am sure you will agree with Rev. Al. won’t you

  30. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 10, 2016 at 7:39 pm #

    The Post & Email is still going strong with a new birth certificate article this week:

    http://www.thepostemail.com/2016/12/08/jeff-harrison-obama-birth-certificate-questions-beyond-comprehension/

    I learned something that I didn’t know: the Cold Case Posse has a Facebook page (last updated in 2014):

    https://www.facebook.com/Maricopa-County-Sheriffs-Office-Cold-Case-Posse-297725046907681/

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: no Birther site even talks about birtherism anymore.

  31. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 10, 2016 at 8:11 pm #

    Looks like the Secretary of State job will go to a close buddy of Putin’s.

    Hard to believe it going as badly as it is.

    justlw: Big blow to #RudyGiuliani who told me 2 nights ago when I interviewed him at Colombian Embassy how much he wanted #SecretaryOfState job

  32. avatar
    Curious George December 10, 2016 at 8:59 pm #

    The birther faithful like Miki Booth, Gabe Zolna, Carl Gallups, Sharon Rondeau, Mike Volin and others are trying to stir up some interest in the press conference event of the century that volunteer Mike Zullo and the lame duck Sheriff Joe Arpaio will hold on December 15, at 4 p.m., in Phoenix, AZ. The public is not invited to attend, but maybe, just maybe we’ll see a live-stream of the event. The birther faithful are putting the last five years of their hope, faith and trust into the universe shattering news that will be released by Zullo and Arpaio. Here is what I think will really happen…

    Zullo and Arpaio will revisit their March 1, 2012 and July 17, 2012 press conferences and the information that was released over four years ago. We’ll hear about probable cause that the Obama birth certificate is a computer generated forgery. We’ll hear about the forged Selective Service Registration. Handwriting examiner Reed Hayes’ report will be promoted as saying something that it doesn’t. Lord Christopher Monckton’s probability computations will be presented as more positive damning evidence that President Obama is a usurper. (Some have suggested that Lord Monckton usurped the title of “Member of the House of Lords.”) The self anointed Birther Princess will hawk her “Memoirs of a Community Organizer from Hawaii” while at the same time, remaining silent about Doug Vogt’s accusations about her part in this hoopla. Tea Party members will fawn over every word spoken by Zullo and Arpaio, never looking beyond the words that are spoken. Maybe Pat Boone will attend and sing his old stand by, “Love Letters in the Sand” to Zullo and Arpaio in appreciation for what they have seemingly accomplished. True believers and grifters from across the country will make the pilgrimage to attend this final tell all event. Unfortunately, they will not hear all that they expect to hear. And they certainly won’t hear about the fact that the state of Hawaii has verified Barack Obama ‘s birth and his American citizenship.

    Arpaio and Zullo will once again announce that they’ve got the goods on Barack Obama but, people in authority for the past five years would not do anything about their allegations. People ridiculed Arpaio and Zullo, and rightly so, for their non investigation, investigation. People laughed at their presentations of erroneous information as fact. They were seen as the carnival barkers that they are. They will promote the idea that they, Arpaio and Zullo, were ignored, because of the evil empire called Obama. But now, with the new Trump Administration coming, Zullo and Arpaio can punt the information to an unnamed agency in the future Trump Administration. This will buy Arpaio and Zullo some time to get out of town before their faithful lemmings realize that they’ve put their trust in in a fairy tale. But at least Arpaio and Zullo will buy some time to get out of Dodge while blaming others for their own abject failures. Tar and feathers can be a real bummer.

    Now let’s all sit back and see what happens.

    .

  33. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund December 10, 2016 at 9:28 pm #

    Hey, Jack, you’ve got a few messages requiring your acknowledgment on the “Biggest Birther Story” thread. Or are you too cowardly to respond?

  34. avatar
    Rickey December 10, 2016 at 10:00 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Looks like the Secretary of State job will go to a close buddy of Putin’s.

    Hard to believe it going as badly as it is.

    Tillerson also is tight with Saudi Arabia. ExxonMobil has at least three major joint ventures with Saudi Arabia, and Trump said during the campaign that we spend too much on military aid for Saudi Arabia. Not many people know that the Saudis own half of the largest oil refinery in the U.S. and are in negotiations to buy another.

  35. avatar
    Rickey December 10, 2016 at 10:03 pm #

    W. Kevin Vicklund:
    Hey, Jack, you’ve got a few messages requiring your acknowledgment on the “Biggest Birther Story” thread.Or are you too cowardly to respond?

    I’m still waiting for him to explain why the marital status of Obama’s parents would have any bearing on his eligibility to be president.

  36. avatar
    trader jack December 10, 2016 at 10:04 pm #

    Yes, indeed, you think that this old 94 year old veteran of ww2 is too cowardly to answer a question? Maybe too old, too senile, to smart to respond to the liberal entities on this board, but, I have arrested a man , citizen arrest ,
    who had just killed a man and wounded a lady, and did that by myself, worked as a Shore Patrol in the bay area, raced cars and motorcycles, and then a loser calls me a coward.

  37. avatar
    trader jack December 10, 2016 at 10:10 pm #

    Rickey: I’m still waiting for him to explain why the marital status of Obama’s parents would have any bearing on his eligibility to be president.

    A child, born out of wedlock, has no father to establish that his paternity parent was a citizen, and the unwed mother can not pass on citizenship if she had just entered the country and had not been in the country long enough to establish her residency in the country.

    But you don’t believe the difference between native born and natural-born citizens

  38. avatar
    trader jack December 10, 2016 at 10:15 pm #

    Rickey: Tillerson also is tight with Saudi Arabia. ExxonMobil has at least three major joint ventures with Saudi Arabia, and Trump said during the campaign that we spend too much on military aid for Saudi Arabia. Not many people know that the Saudis own half of the largest oil refinery in the U.S. and are in negotiations to buy another.

    Well, I do believe that the Clinton’s had their hands out to Russia for the nuclear stuff,, didn’t they.
    And to Saudi Arabia for donations.

    I don’t think the Trump will have so many crooks in the government, but he might.

    And the Obama give billions to Iran, could it be because his Iranian advisors helped with that decision.

  39. avatar
    trader jack December 10, 2016 at 10:21 pm #

    Curious George: And they certainly won’t hear about the fact that the state of Hawaii has verified Barack Obama ‘s birth and his American citizenship

    I don’t think it is possible for a state to verify a person’s citizenship, as that is a federal decision. not a state’s although they can determine whether a person is a citizen of a state

  40. avatar
    Rickey December 11, 2016 at 3:00 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:

    I learned something that I didn’t know: the Cold Case Posse has a Facebook page (last updated in 2014):

    Generally, Facebook pages stay up until the people who started them shut them down.

    The Facebook page of a guy I knew who died in October 2015 is still up.

  41. avatar
    Lupin December 11, 2016 at 3:38 am #

    trader jack: Just, perhaps, the 50 years of progressive agendadid not turn out to be what the populace wanted.

    To the extent that HRC got 2.7 million votes more than DJT your argument seems very weak.

  42. avatar
    Lupin December 11, 2016 at 3:43 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Hard to believe it going as badly as it is.

    History has rightly vilified Marshall Petain’s so-called Vichy regime. I would urge you all to read William Shirer’s FALL OF THE THIRD REPUBLIC to understand how France got there. The parallels with your own country’s recent history are rather striking.

    Now, you have your own puppet regime created by loathsome reactionary forces (Bannon is a good equivalent of Pierre Laval) supported by a hostile foreign power using an old doddering yet still charismatic fool as puppet head.

    Is it too early to refer to Americans as ‘burger-eating surrender monkeys”?

  43. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 11, 2016 at 6:18 am #

    No, he didn’t. The nuclear deal unfroze assets belonging to Iran. They weren’t “given” anything, as you already know, but chose to lie about.

    trader jack: And the Obama give billions to Iran,

  44. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 11, 2016 at 6:23 am #

    Wrong as usual. The mother’s residency requirement did not exist for children born out of wedlock. Obama, born in Hawaii, is a citizen regardless of his parent’s marital status. Indeed, if Obama were found at the door to a hospital, with no clue as to his parents, he would be a citizen, and born a citizen be eligible to become President.

    trader jack: A child, born out of wedlock, has no father to establish that his paternity parent was a citizen, and the unwed mother can not pass on citizenship if she had just entered the country and had not been in the country long enough to establish her residency in the country.

  45. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 11, 2016 at 6:28 am #

    Native-born and natural born both mean “having a position by birth” according to the Oxford English Dictionary. The difference is that the latter is used especially the phrase “natural born subject.”

    trader jack: But you don’t believe the difference between native born and natural-born citizens

  46. avatar
    Reality Check December 11, 2016 at 8:30 am #

    SCOTUS has used the terms interchangeably in multiple decisions over the years.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Native-born and natural born both mean “having a position by birth” according to the Oxford English Dictionary. The difference is that the latter is used especially the phrase “natural born subject.”

  47. avatar
    Reality Check December 11, 2016 at 8:31 am #

    I notice Trader Jack quit talking about the LFBC PDF and how PDF’s can’t have layers without manipulation.

  48. avatar
    Curious George December 11, 2016 at 8:46 am #

    trader jack: I don’t think it is possible for a state to verify a person’s citizenship, as that is a federal decision. not a state’s although they can determine whether a person is a citizen of a state

    The state of Hawaii has verified that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii, the 50th state in the Union, on August 4, 1961.

    “A person born in the United States who is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States is a U.S. citizen at birth,…”

    https://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/HTML/PolicyManual-Volume12-PartH-Chapter3.html

    http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/MS-verification-06006.12.pdf

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/birth-certificate-long-form.pdf

  49. avatar
    gorefan December 11, 2016 at 10:41 am #

    Reality Check:
    I notice Trader Jack quit talking about the LFBC PDF and how PDF’s can’t have layers without manipulation.

    He’ll wait a few weeks and then repeat the same ignorant statements.

  50. avatar
    gorefan December 11, 2016 at 12:05 pm #

    In a comment on Miki Booth’s Facebook page Jeff Licter says the Dec. 15 executive summary will be livestreamed on the MCSO Facebook page.

    https://www.facebook.com/miki.booth/posts/10208133278195065

    Also Booth has said on Twitter she thinks Birthers have been betrayed by Trump.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/MikiBooth/status/804369243659706369

  51. avatar
    Rickey December 11, 2016 at 2:38 pm #

    trader jack: A child, born out of wedlock, has no father to establish that hispaternity parent was a citizen, and the unwed mothercan not pass on citizenship if she had just entered the country and had not been in the country long enough to establish her residency in the country.

    A person who is born in the United States while subject to the jurisdiction of the United States doesn’t need to have citizenship passed down from his or her parents.

    But you don’t believe the difference between native born and natural-born citizens

    Because the difference exists only in your mind.

    NATIVE

    A natural-born subject or citizen ; a denizen by birth ; one who owes his domicile or citizenship to the fact of his birth within the country referred to. The term may also include one born abroad, if his parents were then citizens of the country, and not permanently residing in foreign parts. See U. S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 101) U. S. 049, 18 Sup. Ct 450, 42 L. Ed. 890; New Hartford v. Canaan, 54 Conn. 39, 5 Atl. 300.

    Law Dictionary: What is NATIVE? definition of NATIVE (Black’s Law Dictionary)

  52. avatar
    Rickey December 11, 2016 at 2:45 pm #

    trader jack: I don’t think it is possible for a state to verify a person’s citizenship, as that is a federal decision. not a state’s although they can determine whether a person is a citizen of a state

    If that were true, states would not be able to register voters to vote in federal elections without first verifying their citizenship with the Federal Government.

    Of course, no state does that. A birth certificate showing birth in the United States is sufficient evidence to prove citizenship.

  53. avatar
    trader jack December 11, 2016 at 2:58 pm #

    WHICH

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    No, he didn’t. The nuclear deal unfroze assets belonging to Iran. They weren’t “given” anything, as you already know, but chose to lie about.

    which may be accurate, but ignores that fact, apparently, that the money that was released from frozen funds, was delivered in cash in the form of foreign country bills, and not by a simpler method of bank transfers.l

    Here in the good old USA if you want cash money, you can get it in the form of paper, if it is $10,000 or more but the government will be advised that you withdrew that amount of cash.

  54. avatar
    Pete December 11, 2016 at 3:06 pm #

    trader jack:

    I will take you at your word that you are 94 years old, and a veteran of World War II.

    Thank you, sir, for your service. America and the world owe you and those who served with you a debt of gratitude that we can never repay.

    I have always enjoyed talking with World War II veterans. There are far too few of you left.

    When it comes to the topic at hand, there are two issues.

    Some people have claimed that Obama’s birth certificate is a forgery. Others have claimed that even if he was born in Hawaii, he still was not eligible to be President, because it supposedly takes two citizen parents to be a “natural born citizen.”

    Both of these issues have been discussed and analyzed exhaustively.

    And when I say “exhaustively,” I literally mean that over the past 8 years, every conceivable argument in favor of either claim has been made. Every bit of “evidence” in favor of either idea that anyone could think of or come up with, and has been presented.

    And there have been dozens if not hundreds of people making these claims and arguments, and trying to come up with new claims and new bits of “evidence.”

    At a minimum, dozens of distinct claims have been made. They’ve drained the pot dry.

    And on the other side of it, every single one of these claims has been analyzed and discussed to death.

    And every single one of these claims has been found to be false or otherwise without any merit.

    In other words, there is no real evidence whatsoever that Obama’s birth certificate is a fake. None. Not one single shred.

    Every claim that’s been made in this regard – every single one – has been found to be total and utter bullsh*t.

    Again, we’re talking about dozens of distinct claims here.

    And it’s the exact same thing with the “natural born citizen” theory. It’s nonsense. Totally, absolutely, and completely.

    There isn’t one single point you could possibly raise that hasn’t been gone over many times already, and always with the exact same result.

    There’s no more merit to those two particular claims than there is to you standing on the street corner trying to convince people that martians have landed in New York City and taken over the backbone of the internet.

    At 94 years of age, I’m sure you know that you probably have a limited time here on this earth. It’s true of all of us, but I can only imagine that at 94 that reality is a bit closer than it is for most folks.

    If you’re looking to leave something behind, first of all, you already have. You and those who served with you have left us a better world.

    But if you want to leave something else behind, spend time with your family, assuming you have one, with friends if you don’t, and failing that, with someone who needs a friend.

    If you’re estranged from family members, find a way to make peace. Set aside old grievances on your part, and swallow your pride and ask for forgiveness if you need to.

    If you have kids or grandkids or great grandkids, make a video with them. Make a video for them. Tell them what you wish you had known earlier in your life, what you’re grateful for, and what you wish you’d done differently.

    Tell them your life experiences, including but not limited to WWII. Get it on video, and give it to them for Christmas or New Year’s.

    That’s what you can do that will be of meaning. Beating horses that aren’t just dead, but that were never actually alive isn’t anything meaningful to do with the time you have left.

    But some of these other things are.

    I wish you a Merry Christmas, sir, and a Happy New Year.

  55. avatar
    trader jack December 11, 2016 at 3:13 pm #

    http://www.dcclothesline.com/2016/01/10/the-difference-between-a-u-s-citizen-and-a-natural-born-citizen/

    That may give you a different perspective, or might not

  56. avatar
    trader jack December 11, 2016 at 3:29 pm #

    Pete: Some people have claimed that Obama’s birth certificate is a forgery. Others have claimed that even if he was born in Hawaii, he still was not eligible to be President, because it supposedly takes two citizen parents to be a “natural born citizen.”
    Both of these issues have been discussed and analyzed exhaustively

    Thank you ,Pete

    Yes indeed , I am 94 , graduated from Hoover High in San Diego, and went into the USN on Nov14, 1940.

    Enough of that.

    Yes, indeed it has been discussed, cussed at, and caused derision on both side

    I do not know it the original birth certificate is true or false, I do know that it is hidden from view of the public, the original, and a certified copy has been issued.

    I perceive the certified copy to be somewhat strange is the copying of the original

    My basic concern with the darn thing is the R in the name Barak, as I do not believe that any typed text can be printed on a printer with a different dpi in the middle of a word. and that the signature can be printed with different dpi’s in the signatures .

    But, I could be wrong , but I remain unconvinced.

    It is kind of like the election. Half the people think Trump won the election, and half the people think Hilary won it be cause she got the most votes, apparently.

    I feel the people on this site support Hillary, and, again, I may be in error

    Dr. C is convinced that there is no E in Onaka’s signature, and yet people always see it when it is pointed out

  57. avatar
    Rickey December 11, 2016 at 3:34 pm #

    For Trader Jack’s edification:

    Judicial and Statutory Definitions of Words and Phrases, Volume 5 (1904), p. 4664

    Every person born within the United States, its territories or districts, whether the parents are citizens or aliens, is a natural born citizen, within the sense of the Constitution, and entitled to all the rights and privileges pertaining to that capacity. Town of New Hartford v. Town of Canaan, 5 Atl. 360, 364, 54 Conn. 39 (citing Rawle, Const. U.S. p. 86. See also Lynch v. Clarke (N.Y.) 1 Sandf. Ch 584, 2 Kent, Comm. (9th Ed.); McKay v. Campbell (U.S.) 16 Fed, Cas. 157; Field, Int. Code, 132; Morse, Citizenship § 203

  58. avatar
    Dave B. December 11, 2016 at 3:46 pm #

    So the truth starts to fall into place, bit by bit, piece by piece. Turns out the whole Kenya thing was just a ploy—

    http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/others/no-hope-for-some-in-obama-s-irish-hometown-while-one-major-business-thrives?utm_campaign=Best+of+IrishCentral+-+2016-12-11&utm_medium=Email&utm_source=Mailjet

  59. avatar
    Rickey December 11, 2016 at 4:29 pm #

    Reality Check:
    I notice Trader Jack quit talking about the LFBC PDF and how PDF’s can’t have layers without manipulation.

    As is the case with all birthers, Jack will never admit that he was wrong. He just moves on to different misinformation.

  60. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 11, 2016 at 4:50 pm #

    Let’s start with facts.

    The Xerox WorkCentre 7655 separates images into separate objects when creating a PDF. It stores the background (for example the paper, the basketweave in the case of Obama’s birth certificate and other non-text items) at one resolution and it stores text objects at another resolution. So every optimized PDF coming out of a Xerox 7655 has things stored at different resolutions.

    How can these facts be verified? Simply scan something and look at the results.

    In order to understand Obama’s certificate, it helps to look at the individual objects. Here is the layer that contains most of the text:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/birth-certificate-long-form_Page_1_Image_0002.jpg

    and here is the background layer:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/birth-certificate-long-form_Page_1_Image_0001.jpg

    You see that the “R” is on the background layer rather than with the rest of the text, and by looking you can see other things that the Xerox algorithm failed to separate from the background and recognize as text.

    Now I think anyone would agree that there is no “logic” to putting the “R” in the wrong layer, but its being there is WHY it has a different resolution. The same thing appears with the trailing “1” in Obama’s birth certificate number.

    The text is not “printed” with a different DPI. It is stored in the PDF at a different DPI. Of course, if the PDF is printed, it will look like the image that’s stored. Depending on how the PDF viewer is programmed (different one show the Obama PDF in different ways), that difference in resolution in the PDF, and the fact that the background is stored in a lossy format, but the other layers as bitmaps, will show up in various ways.

    There is no mystery here. The Obama PDF has the same characteristics as other documents scanned in the same way.

    Hawaii has verified that Obama posted a copy of his birth certificate on the White House web site, so why would you expect anything else than that it is exactly what it claims to be?

    Whether you will try to raise some irrelevant point, or try to twist the verifications from Hawaii not to say what they plainly say, I do not know, and could care less. What I know without any doubt is that the White House PDF is a true copy of the certified copy issued by the State of Hawaii, and not a “computer generated forgery.”

    trader jack: My basic concern with the darn thing is the R in the name Barak, as I do not believe that any typed text can be printed on a printer with a different dpi in the middle of a word. and that the signature can be printed with different dpi’s in the signatures .

  61. avatar
    Dave B. December 11, 2016 at 5:02 pm #

    When your chosen reference cites to one of the most odious opinions ever written by a Supreme Court justice, which wasn’t even the majority opinion on that singularly malignant decision, what perspective are we supposed to gain?

    trader jack:
    http://www.dcclothesline.com/2016/01/10/the-difference-between-a-u-s-citizen-and-a-natural-born-citizen/

    That may give you a different perspective, or might not

  62. avatar
    justlw December 11, 2016 at 5:23 pm #

    Not even one “O’bama” trotted out there? Disappointing!

  63. avatar
    Joey December 11, 2016 at 5:28 pm #

    Votes are still being counted. As of today:
    Hillary Clinton: 65,737,041
    Donald Trump: 62,896,704
    Clinton’s popular vote lead: 2,840,337

  64. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 11, 2016 at 6:15 pm #

    Tidbit: The US Supreme Court has actually tried one criminal case:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Shipp

  65. avatar
    Rickey December 11, 2016 at 7:20 pm #

    trader jack:
    http://www.dcclothesline.com/2016/01/10/the-difference-between-a-u-s-citizen-and-a-natural-born-citizen/

    That may give you a different perspective, or might not

    Lawrence Sellin is a disgraced Army reservist who was expelled from Afghanistan for insubordination by David Patraeus. Sellin’s PhD is in physiology. He is neither a legal expert nor a historian.

  66. avatar
    Rickey December 11, 2016 at 7:25 pm #

    trader jack:

    It is kind of like the election.Half the people think Trump won the election, and half the people think Hilary won it be cause she got the most votes, apparently.

    You’re lying again. Nobody thinks that Clinton won the election, although many people believe that she should have won the election because she received nearly 3 million more votes than Trump. However, we all know that it is the electoral vote, not the popular vote, which determines the winner of presidential elections.

  67. avatar
    Keith December 11, 2016 at 8:33 pm #

    And Jack, I’d just like to add to Doc’s explanation that the Constitution doesn’t say that the Birth Certificate has to comply with your idea of what constitutes a Birth Certificate – real or forged. In fact, it doesn’t say anything at all about a Birth Certificate.

    What the Constitution says about eligibility is age and natural born citizenship. Those two items can be determined from a Birth Certificate for somewhere around 99% of all eligible candidates from the birth date and birth location.

    Now it doesn’t matter one whit wheter the ‘R’ in Barack is stored in the background object or the foreground text object in a PDF or whether it is written in crayon on a piece of toilet paper. What matters is the birth date and the birth location.

    There has not been one scintilla of evidence that either birth certificate released by the President has either of those two fields altered in anyway. Hawai’i has verified the information in those fields. Contemporaneous independent newspaper reports confirm it.

    The document is NOT forged and there has never been any REASON for such a forgery. Your ‘problem’ with the ‘R’ is irrelevant to anything that important. Totally irrelevant. You continued objections are nothing more than self-defeating and it is time to just give it a rest.

    Pete offered you some sage advice, I’d consider his words favorably if I were you.

    Dr. Conspiracy: Whether you will try to raise some irrelevant point, or try to twist the verifications from Hawaii not to say what they plainly say, I do not know, and could care less. What I know without any doubt is that the White House PDF is a true copy of the certified copy issued by the State of Hawaii, and not a “computer generated forgery.”

    trader jack: My basic concern with the darn thing is the R in the name Barak, as I do not believe that any typed text can be printed on a printer with a different dpi in the middle of a word. and that the signature can be printed with different dpi’s in the signatures .

  68. avatar
    justlw December 11, 2016 at 8:44 pm #

    trader jack: the money that was released from frozen funds, was delivered in cash in the form of foreign country bills, and not by a simpler method of bank transfers.l

    Here in the good old USA if you want cash money, you can get it in the form of paper, if it is $10,000 or more but the government will be advised that you withdrew that amount of cash.

    The money was transferred in cash because, as part of the sanctions against Iran, they had been barred from the international electronic banking system.

    This was actually one of the more effective elements of the sanctions; Iran was significantly hampered by not being part of the system. It is conjectured that getting back on SWIFT was worth more to them than getting back the money that had been frozen.

  69. avatar
    Keith December 11, 2016 at 8:44 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Tidbit: The US Supreme Court has actually tried one criminal case:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Shipp

    Very interesting. I didn’t know that.

  70. avatar
    Pete December 12, 2016 at 12:27 am #

    trader jack: Yes indeed , I am 94 , graduated from Hoover High in San Diego, and went into the USN on Nov14, 1940.

    Enough of that.

    Frankly, I’m more interested in hearing about your time in the Navy than I am in just about anything about this discussion.

    I love hearing from WWII veterans what they are willing to share. Unfortunately, as you know, those who served in that war are harder and harder to find.

    Again, I salute you, sir, and thank you for your service.

  71. avatar
    Pete December 12, 2016 at 12:37 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Now I think anyone would agree that there is no “logic” to putting the “R” in the wrong layer, but its being there is WHY it has a different resolution. The same thing appears with the trailing “1” in Obama’s birth certificate number.

    I would quibble slightly with this statement.

    There’s no human logic to putting the “R” in a different layer.

    There is, however, logic. It’s machine logic. It has to do with a computer algorithm, or program, buried in the programming of the Xerox WorkCentre.

    Specifically, computer programs aren’t nearly as good as human beings are at sorting out, “Hey, this is part of the name, and in fact, it’s the ‘R’ in “BARACK,’ so that should be on the same layer with the text.”

    The computer looks at the image, and tries to sort out, pixel by pixel, dot by dot, what’s likely to belong with the background and what’s likely to go with the text of the document.

    Again, this separation is machine-logical. It’s useful because the entire background can be stored at a lower resolution, lower quality, costing less disk space.

    This is what optimizing an image is all about: You have a computer program go through a process, using set rules of machine logic, to decide what in the image can be stored low-resolution, what needs to be higher resolution, and so forth. The point is to cut down on the space needed to store the image, while still making it quite readable to human eyes.

    In fact, one of the obvious things about the PDF is that the layers are all machine-logical. They are NOT human-logical, in the slightest.

    All of which is 100% consistent with all of the “anomalies” in the PDF not being anomalies at all. They are simply the result of scanning the document on the White House’s Xerox WorkCentre and rotating it.

    There’s nothing unusual about them.

    It’s like having all these people produce a $20 bill and claim the government hires really skilled artists to paint the $20 bills.

    No, they don’t. It’s obvious that they’re made by machine.

    It’s just as obvious, at least to people who understand computers, that the PDF is the result of machine processing.

  72. avatar
    Reality Check December 12, 2016 at 8:03 am #

    Well said Pete.

  73. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 12, 2016 at 9:03 am #

    Carl Gallups’ latest on upcoming A/Z news conference:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci5WxP6wGV4

  74. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 12, 2016 at 9:14 am #

    “Logical” has several definitions. I used the word in the sense of “reasonable; to be expected.”

    Pete: I would quibble slightly with this statement.

  75. avatar
    gorefan December 12, 2016 at 10:01 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Carl Gallups’ latest on upcoming A/Z news conference:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci5WxP6wGV4

    Latest from Cold Case Posse

    https://www.facebook.com/Maricopa-County-Sheriffs-Office-Cold-Case-Posse-297725046907681/

    Phoenix, Arizona – Maricopa County Sheriff Joseph Arpaio will hold a press conference this Thursday, December 15th at 4pm MST at the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office Training Center to provide an update and a final conclusion to the Barack Obama Birth Certificate investigation.

    This event will be closed but publicly streamed for all to view. If interested, please feel free to re-share this post on your own timeline.

    You can tune into the live stream by visiting the Maricopa County Sheriffs Office Official FaceBook page at the following link:

    https://www.facebook.com/Maricopa-County-Sheriffs-Office-147344832098401/

    Thank you,
    Cold Case Posse Administration ~

    They say it is closed. Does that mean no press will be there asking questions?

  76. avatar
    Curious George December 12, 2016 at 10:03 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Carl Gallups’ latest on upcoming A/Z news conference:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci5WxP6wGV4

    Carl Gallups isn’t quite so hyped up in this recording. Maybe he finally knows that the Zullo & Arpaio press conference will be an exercise in futility?

  77. avatar
    gorefan December 12, 2016 at 10:04 am #

    trader jack: My basic concern with the darn thing is the R in the name Barak, as I do not believe that any typed text can be printed on a printer with a different dpi in the middle of a word. and that the signature can be printed with different dpi’s in the signatures .

    The name “Barack” appears twice on the birth certificate but only one of the “R”s has been placed on the background layer.

    Why would a forger do that?

  78. avatar
    Curious George December 12, 2016 at 10:13 am #

    gorefan

    “They say it is closed. Does that mean no press will be there asking questions?”

    If they’re smart if it will be WND, the Western Center for Journalism, the Post & Email, Birther Report, if it can be resurrected from the dead, and other assorted birther news sites.

    They were destroyed by the real news outlets at previous conferences.

  79. avatar
    Rickey December 12, 2016 at 11:09 am #

    gorefan:

    Phoenix, Arizona – Maricopa County Sheriff Joseph Arpaio will hold a press conference this Thursday, December 15th at 4pm MST at the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office Training Center to provide an update and a final conclusion to the Barack Obama Birth Certificate investigation.

    As far as I can tell, Trump hasn’t announced a time for his December 15th press conference, or even if it’s still on. He’s scheduled to be at one of his “victory tour” rallies in Hershey, PA at 7:00 p.m. (5:00 p.m. MST) that day.

  80. avatar
    Rickey December 12, 2016 at 12:05 pm #

    Alternate reality in action: someone posted this on the MCSO’s Facebook page on Saturday:

    Sheriff Joe Arpaio I hope and pray that you are involved with the White House. You’ve done such a fantastic job of saving taxpayers money and running the jails that we need you in the WH in some capacity!

  81. avatar
    trader jack December 12, 2016 at 7:53 pm #

    Pete: All of which is 100% consistent with all of the “anomalies” in the PDF not being anomalies at all. They are simply the result of scanning the document on the White House’s Xerox WorkCentre and rotating it

    this is the sort of statement arouses my eyes and make me wonder, how on earth any one knows that the item was rotated?

    was it done when the document was printed, if in fact, the hdoh printed the document from a digital source , as some claim.

    Or was it rotated when the certified copies were printed and certified?

    or was it rotated when the Whitehouse copied them and issue them to the press?

    As there were two certified copies provided to the lawyer, has anyone seen the second to see if the certification signature was the same as each certified copy had to be individually certified, a did anyone see if they both have the same supposed defects.

    Not that it makes much difference now!

  82. avatar
    trader jack December 12, 2016 at 8:17 pm #

    As to the question, if it is a question, as to what “natural born” means, I , again , looked up the term on Wiki and find that there are about 200 or more references on the term and the term is not universally described.

    It looks like most of the reference saying natural born is in the 21st century

    From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born-citizen_clause

    “The U.S. Constitution uses but does not define the phrase “natural born Citizen”, and various opinions have been offered over time regarding its precise meaning. The consensus of early 21st-century constitutional scholars, together with relevant case law, is that natural-born citizens include, subject to exceptions, those born in the United States. Many scholars have also concluded that those who meet the legal requirements for U.S. citizenship “at the moment of birth”, regardless of place of birth, are also natural born citizens.”

    So, here it is, in the early part of this century, as they try to get Obama elected, all of the scholars start trying to find way to get this liberal into the presidency.

    So, as liberals , are you part of the group who are trying to change the previous status.

    Remember that Congress had tried 5 times to get the law to changed to allow all citizens to be able to try to run for president.

    Of course , we all know that Congress must have asked the lawyers if it would be necessary to change the constitution to accomplish that , and the lawyers must have said you have to change the constitution to change it, or ,perhaps , change the law and specifically state that all citizens were natural born citizens, which would then allow the court actions to go the SCOTUS to get a ruling.

  83. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 12, 2016 at 9:37 pm #

    If you wanted historical references to the term “natural born citizen” you needn’t have gone further than this web site.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/01/the-great-mother-of-all-natural-born-citizen-quotation-pages/

    The question of whether people like Obama are natural born citizens has been long settled. It was certainly settled by the Supreme Court in US v Wong in the 19th century and thoroughly examined in the New York case of Lynch v. Clarke (1844) and declared a universal opinion. William Rawle in the very first American civics book in 1825. All have declared it founding principle that persons born US Citizens in the country qualify as natural born citizens.

    Where the legal scholars came out was the case of the Canadian-born Ted Cruz.

    No congressional attempt to propose a Constitutional amendment to change Article II would have had any effect on persons like Obama, who are indisputably eligible.

    As for the Wikipedia–any fool can edit the Wikipedia.

    trader jack: As to the question, if it is a question, as to what “natural born” means, I , again , looked up the term on Wiki and find that there are about 200 or more references on the term and the term is not universally described.

  84. avatar
    Pete December 12, 2016 at 11:27 pm #

    trader jack: this is the sort of statement arouses my eyes and make me wonder, how on earth any one knows that the item was rotated?

    was it done when the document was printed, if in fact, the hdoh printed the document from a digital source , as some claim.

    The characteristics of the digital file indicate that a paper document (the same paper document provided by the State of Hawaii, with raised seal, that was seen, held and photographed by journalists) was scanned on the White House Xerox WorkCentre copier/scanner, rotated, and saved as a PDF file.

    That’s it.

    I’m sure Reality Check can give you more of the technical details, as well as links to various technical analyses that demonstrate this was the case.

  85. avatar
    bob December 12, 2016 at 11:39 pm #

    trader jack can’t accept that President Obama was born in Hawaii due to … a lack certainty regarding exactly when the long form was rotated during the copying process.

    Of course.

  86. avatar
    trader jack December 13, 2016 at 12:08 am #

    Well, I would put the url in, but this damn computer lost the page and when I went to history it would not recognize my password.

    “But once a major party becomes committed to a
    Presidential candidate, the stakes become so momentous that the courts
    might hesitate to intervene. Nevertheless the possibility of a judicial
    contest at this stage of the election process cannot be discounted. There
    is no certainty that the Supreme Court, in its present activist mood,
    would shrink from entering what some may regard as a “political
    thicket” to decide any controversy, merely because the decision will have
    far-reaching consequences. 2

    2 Therefore it is conceivable that a judicial
    holding might be obtained, particularly if it is favorable to the candidate.
    Finally, it may develop that there has been no judicial determination
    and that a person with the disputed qualifications is actually elected
    President. Some ingenious soul might resort to judicial proceedings
    to restrain the electoral college from voting or to block the new President’s
    induction, but it hardly seems likely that such an effort would
    be seriously regarded. More significant is the possibility that after
    the new President takes office someone may seek to oust him through
    the ancient writ of quo warranto – challenging an office holder’s right
    to his office – or its modern equivalents. 33 Although it has no specific
    statutory sanction, such a writ is still recognized in federal practice. 34
    But at this stage of the election process, the possibility of a judicial
    expression is so remote as to be virtually nonexistent. In the first place,
    a person seeking to launch such a contest would have to overcome the
    seemingly insuperable hurdle of legal standing to sue.”

    Looks like the democratic party must of read these comments LOL

  87. avatar
    Keith December 13, 2016 at 12:10 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Carl Gallups’ latest on upcoming A/Z news conference:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci5WxP6wGV4

    Yeah well, I guess I’ll never get that 30 seconds of my life back.

  88. avatar
    Rickey December 13, 2016 at 12:16 am #

    trader jack:

    So, here it is, in the early part of this century, as they try to get Obama elected, all of the scholars start trying to find way to get this liberal into the presidency.

    So, as liberals , are you part of the group who are trying to change the previous status.

    We’re not trying to change anything. We are simply reiterating the understanding of the meaning of natural born citizen since it was clarified in the case of Wong Kim Ark.

    The citation which I provided to you yesterday was published in 1904, 57 years before Obama’s birth. Here it is again:

    Judicial and Statutory Definitions of Words and Phrases, Volume 5 (1904), p. 4664

    Every person born within the United States, its territories or districts, whether the parents are citizens or aliens, is a natural born citizen, within the sense of the Constitution, and entitled to all the rights and privileges pertaining to that capacity. Town of New Hartford v. Town of Canaan, 5 Atl. 360, 364, 54 Conn. 39 (citing Rawle, Const. U.S. p. 86. See also Lynch v. Clarke (N.Y.) 1 Sandf. Ch 584, 2 Kent, Comm. (9th Ed.); McKay v. Campbell (U.S.) 16 Fed, Cas. 157; Field, Int. Code, 132; Morse, Citizenship § 203

    Remember that Congress had tried 5 times to get the law to changed to allow all citizens to be able to try to run for president.

    Wrong again. There have been multiple, half-hearted efforts to amend the Constitution (not to change a law) to allow naturalized citizens to be eligible to be president. You might be surprised to learn that the push was led by two Republicans, Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, R-Calif., and Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/2004/11/30/foreign-born-president-amendment-sought.html

  89. avatar
    trader jack December 13, 2016 at 12:19 am #

    bob:
    trader jack can’t accept that President Obama was born in Hawaii due to … a lack certainty regarding exactly when the long form was rotated during the copying process.

    Of course.

    Define “rotated” in the scanning,copying, and printing of the copy that was held by the report, and was it done before or after she rotated it to show the seal that doesn’t show in any picture of the PDF, or what ever you want to call it

    verb

    past tense: rotated; past participle: rotated

    move or cause to move in a circle around an axis or center.
    “the wheel continued to rotate”

  90. avatar
    Reality Check December 13, 2016 at 8:37 am #

    NBC determined that the LFBC was placed in the document feeder of a Xerox WorkCentre upside down and the PDF was opened and resaved to PDF in Preview on a Mac. I don’t recall how he determined that but I will see if he has something on his blog.

    Pete: The characteristics of the digital file indicate that a paper document (the same paper document provided by the State of Hawaii, with raised seal, that was seen, held and photographed by journalists) was scanned on the White House Xerox WorkCentre copier/scanner, rotated, and saved as a PDF file.

    That’s it.

    I’m sure Reality Check can give you more of the technical details, as well as links to various technical analyses that demonstrate this was the case.

  91. avatar
    Reality Check December 13, 2016 at 9:09 am #

    I should have added that the PDF was opened, rotated 180 degrees, and then resaved to a new PDF file on the Mac. The rotation and resave was why the metadata showed the producer was Quartz Preview and not Xerox.

  92. avatar
    Pete December 13, 2016 at 9:45 am #

    And that, jack, is the simple truth.

    Every qualified, professional expert who looked at the PDF (and there were several, including a professor who invented much of the technology who produced it) all came to the conclusion that there was nothing abnormal about the PDF at all.

    There were also quite a few technically competent people (including Reality Check, NBC and others) who examined it and came to the same conclusion.

    On the other hand, you had World Net Daily and Sheriff Arpaio claiming to have “experts” (not one of whom actually did digital forensics for a living) who swore there was iron-clad evidence it was a fake, and raised, in the case of Arpaio, literally millions of dollars for themselves largely on the back of those claims.

    Literally every single forgery claim that Arpaio and World Net Daily made was refuted and debunked. Every single d*mn one.

    On the other hand, none of the technical analysis by the actual experts, and by the technically competent amateurs, was ever refuted by Arpaio and World Net Daily. They simply ignored the real evidence, because it didn’t say what they wanted to claim.

    Kind of like birthers everywhere.

    Except with WND/ Arpaio, they had a very $trong added incentive to $et a$ide and ignore all of the actual evidence.

    Hell, World Net Daily even ignored the experts THEY hired, who wouldn’t tell them what they wanted to hear.

    Did I leave anything important out?

    Oh, and Reality Check – would you have any links/ references handy for our guest?

  93. avatar
    Joey December 13, 2016 at 1:14 pm #

    The scanned to pdf image on whitehouse.gov has no autonomous, intrinsic probative value. What judges ruling on Obama’s natural born citizenship have received into evidence are second generation photocopies of the hard copy, sent directly from the Hawaii Department of Health. Birthers’ concerns about the pdf image are judicially irrelevant.

    Evidentiary documentation has been a two step process, take a copy of the original Certficate of Live Birth and photocopy it. Then mail it to an Administrative Law Judge in Georgia and U.S. District Court Judge in Mississippi. In the second instance, the defense also included a Certified Letter of Verification for the long form birth certificate sent from the Hawaii Registrar of Vital Statistics.

    At no time was it necessary to use the scanned to pdf image when the state of Hawaii can make second generation hard copies at will, or they can release the original document for inspection under a court order, in accorance with Hawaii Revised Statutes 338-18.
    No judge and no state government official or member of Congress has ever requested release of the original document for inspection.

  94. avatar
    Joey December 13, 2016 at 1:32 pm #

    trader jack:
    As to the question, if it is a question,as to what “natural born” means,I , again , looked up the term on Wiki and find that there are about 200 or more references on the term and the term is not universally described.

    It looks like most of the reference saying natural born is in the 21st century

    FromWikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born-citizen_clause

    “The U.S. Constitution uses but does not define the phrase “natural born Citizen”, and various opinions have been offered over time regarding its precise meaning. The consensus of early 21st-century constitutional scholars, together with relevant case law, is that natural-born citizens include, subject to exceptions, those born in the United States. Many scholars have also concluded that those who meet the legal requirements for U.S. citizenship “at the moment of birth”, regardless of place of birth, are also natural born citizens.”

    So, here it is, in the early part of this century, as they try to get Obama elected, all of the scholars start trying to find way to get this liberal into the presidency.

    So, as liberals , are you part of the group who are trying to change the previous status.

    Remember that Congress had tried 5 times to get the law to changed to allow all citizens to be able to try to run for president.

    Of course , we all know that Congress must have asked the lawyersif it would be necessary to change the constitution to accomplish that , and the lawyers must have said you have to change the constitution to change it, or ,perhaps , change the law and specifically state that all citizens were natural born citizens, which would then allow the court actions to go the SCOTUS to geta ruling.

    I couldn’t help but notice that Trader Jack completely ignores referencing CONSERVATIVE constitutional scholars, particularly experts on originalism. I will mention just one of many possible conservative/originalist scholars, U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia. Did Justice Scalia ever mention or act on his interpretation of the term “Natural Born Citizen? It turns out he did in oral arguments before the Supreme Court: Tuan Anh Nguyen v INS (No. 99-2071):
    “
Justice Scalia said: “…I mean isn’t it clear that the natural born requirement in the Constitution was intended explicitly to exclude some Englishmen who had come here and spent some time here and then went back and raised their families in England. They didn’t want that. They wanted natural born Americans.”
    Since Trader Jack discounts the interpretation of liberal constitutional scholars, how about sharing with us the views of conservative constitutional scholars who were not promoting the election of Barack Obama.
    I consider James Madison, “The Father of the Constitution” to be a constitutional scholar, not of the 21st century and he probably wouldn’t have supported Baack Obama’s candidacy.
    James Madison: “It is an established maxim that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth however derives its force sometimes from place and sometimes from parentage, but in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States; it will therefore be unnecessary to investigate any other.”–House of Representatives, May 22,1789

  95. avatar
    Rickey December 13, 2016 at 1:53 pm #

    Trump has “postponed” his December 15 press conference.

    http://money.cnn.com/2016/12/12/media/donald-trump-news-conference-postponed/

  96. avatar
    Arthur B. December 13, 2016 at 2:26 pm #

    Rickey: Trump has “postponed” his December 15 press conference.

    I wonder if one of his motivations is to keep his intentions hidden until after the vote of the Electoral College.

  97. avatar
    gorefan December 13, 2016 at 2:47 pm #

    trader jack: So, here it is, in the early part of this century, as they try to get Obama elected, all of the scholars start trying to find way to get this liberal into the presidency.

    More stupidity.

    Birthers have been claiming for the past eight years that they remember being taught in school Presidents had to have two citizen parents. Not one Birther has produced a school textbook that cites that requirement. In the meantime dozens of textbooks gone back to the 19th century have been found that say that simple birth in the US qualifies one to be a natural born citizen.

  98. avatar
    gorefan December 13, 2016 at 3:39 pm #

    trader jack: So, here it is, in the early part of this century, as they try to get Obama elected, all of the scholars start trying to find way to get this liberal into the presidency.

    Here is a college textbook from 1922. On page 184 it specifically says children born in US to alien parents are natural-born citizens. Even if parents are just here temporarily.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=fIlCAAAAIAAJ&dq=%22subject%20to%20the%20jurisdiction%20thereof%22%20%22natural%20born%22&pg=PA184#v=onepage&q=Natural-born&f=false

  99. avatar
    J.D. Sue December 13, 2016 at 4:16 pm #

    gorefan: Here is a college textbook from 1922. On page 184 it specifically says children born in US to alien parents are natural-born citizens. Even if parents are just here temporarily.


    One of my personal favorite sources, published in 1828, is Arthur J. Stansbury’s “Elementary Catechism on the Constitution of the United States for the Use of Schools”. http://constitution.org/cmt/stansbury/elementary_catechism_on_the_constitution.pdf

    On page 48-49, it states:

    Q. May any person be chosen President of the United States?

    A. Not every person; none may be chosen unless he has been born in the United States, or was a citizen when the Constitution was agreed to, nor can such a one be chosen if he is less than thirty-five years old, or if he has not resident within the United States for four-teen years.

  100. avatar
    J.D. Sue December 13, 2016 at 4:43 pm #

    trader jack: So, here it is, in the early part of this century, as they try to get Obama elected, all of the scholars start trying to find way to get this liberal into the presidency.

    So, as liberals , are you part of the group who are trying to change the previous status.

    —-
    This of course is false. But what irony! Who is trying to make 21st Century changes? You recently stated you wouldn’t be satisfied unless you saw, among other things, an analysis of his parents DNA! Sheesh!

  101. avatar
    Joey December 13, 2016 at 4:51 pm #

    One of my favorite sources is the 1882 work by George Bancroft: A History of the Formation of the Constitution of the United States, Volume 2.
    Bancroft should have particular resonance with Trader Jack, Navy Man as Mr. Bancroft was the Founder of the U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis and a Secretary of the Navy.
    George Bancroft had interviewed James Madison before the “Father of the Constitution’s” death in 1836.
    “One question on the qualifications of the president was among the last decided. On the twenty-second of August, the Committee of Detail, fixing the requisite age of the president at thirty-five, on their own motion, and for the first time required only that the president should be a citizen of the United States, and should have been an inhabitant of them for twenty-one years. On the fourth of September, the Committee of States, who were charged with all unfinished business, limited the years of residence to fourteen. It was then objected that no number of years could properly prepare a foreigner for that place; but, as men of other lands had spilled their blood in the cause of the United States, and had assisted at every stage of the formation of their institutions, on the seventh of September, it was unanimously settled that foreign-born residents of fourteen years who shall be citizens at the time of the formation of the Constitution are eligible to the Office of the President.” (Corroboration for the statements of Bancroft are to be found in Vol. 5 of Johathan Elliott’s “Madison Papers,” page 462, 507, 512 and 521, and in Vol. 3 of Henry D. Gilpin’s “Madison Papers” pages 1398 , 1437 and 1516)

    https://books.google.com/books?id=nMk9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA192&lpg=PA192&dq=bancroft

    Not one word of mention of the 21st century birther two citizen parents theory.

  102. avatar
    Reality Check December 13, 2016 at 8:26 pm #

    I posted this link before:

    Xerox for Dummies

    I also made a couple of YouTube videos.

    Part 1
    Part 2

    Pete: Oh, and Reality Check – would you have any links/ references handy for our guest?

  103. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 13, 2016 at 8:59 pm #

    I believe it’s called “spinning your heels.”

    trader jack: move or cause to move in a circle around an axis or center.
    “the wheel continued to rotate”

  104. avatar
    trader jack December 13, 2016 at 10:37 pm #

    Oh, glorious days are ahead for us all.
    But, to get back to what is being said.
    as I understand what I am reading.
    Xerox scanned it, but it was inserted inverted, and then it was sent to a Mac for conversion, inversion, and then printi?ng.

    OK, if that is what you think happened but isn’t the Xerox a printer itself, so why was it sent to a Mac?

    But, my understanding is that the documents in the records are not scanned, but the information on them is taken from the digital information , and a new certificate is printed and then the information on the certificate is printed on the certificate. But that would not appear to be the case, unless the Xerox is the one printing a pdf from the digital record. Or it might be that the Xerox does all of the work and sends it to the Mac for printing of the PDF.
    does anyone thing that the printing of a certified copy and issuance of said copy of a certified copy is the proper way to issue certified copies?

    Don’t we all think that every certified copy of a recorded document must have the signature and certification of the responsible property individually certified.

    Which is why I asked if anyone had seen the other certified copy of the birth certificate.

  105. avatar
    Pete December 13, 2016 at 10:41 pm #

    gorefan: Here is a college textbook from 1922. On page 184 it specifically says children born in US to alien parents are natural-born citizens. Even if parents are just here temporarily.

    Yep. It says that. And yep, it was published in 1922.

  106. avatar
    Pete December 13, 2016 at 10:49 pm #

    Reality Check:
    I posted this link before:

    Xerox for Dummies

    I also made a couple of YouTube videos.

    Part 1
    Part 2

    So you see, jack, as I stated before, or at least implied:

    You have arrived at the place where the experts reside. Not in the sense of paid professionals who have examined Obama’s birth certificate PDF or who are the foremost experts on Constitutional Law, but in the sense of the body of fair-minded amateurs who have read everything ever written and made public by the foremost experts, and who have studiously looked at every single detail on both sides.

    The end result is this:

    There’s no real evidence, not one single shred, that Obama’s birth certificate is a fake in any way. Only piles and piles and piles of horsecr*p claims that have ALL – and I mean ALL, as in EVERY SINGLE ONE – been debunked.

    There is a similar certainty that it DOES NOT take the birther “definition” to make a “natural born citizen.” It’s horsecr*p.

    Now I know that you, like many other birthers, imagine that with a pile that big and that deep, surely there must be a pony in there somewhere.

    What I’m telling you is: There isn’t. It’s just a pile of horse dung. That’s all. The pile is large, but every single teaspoon of it has been sifted, over the past 8 years, through a kitchen strainer.

    And there’s not a single d*mn pony anywhere in the pile.

    It’s simply and only horsecr*p.

  107. avatar
    trader jack December 13, 2016 at 11:05 pm #

    Ah, the sold evidence that even the democrats knew what natural born citizens were

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-original-birther-controversy/

    Now , here you will find that the Democrats were objecting to Charles A Arthur , because he was born in Canada.

    Now , it Is hard for you all to admit , that in 1899 that the Democrats believed that you had to be born in the USA and born of citizen parents, or something else, as I am never sure when Democrats are telling the truth or just defending the party,
    Now , the very next time a question about the citizenship of a candidate came up the Democrat went all in on the basis that you did not have to be a natural born citizen, because the candidate had a problem with citizenship.

    And, as further evidence of their beliefs about nbc the Congress tried various methods of changing the requirement and even suggesting that an amendment be made to change the requirement, And all of that was in the last 20 years.

    How can you honestly believe , considering the attempts to change the rule, that Congress did not believe that the NBC problems was a real problem and that the constitution needed amendment to allow others than NBC were to be president

    But , believe as you wish, for I cannot change your mind.

  108. avatar
    trader jack December 13, 2016 at 11:33 pm #

    Why , thank you for providing that first section of the video, as it proves what I was saying about the R in Barack.

    The printing by the Xerox eliminated the pixilation of the letter R completely, which shows that the LFBC must not have been printed on a Xerox.

    Look at it a 800 plus and you will see R has the same pixilation as the rest of the word, but on the long form it has a different pixilation of the letter R.

    Check it yourself and you will see that I am right

  109. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG December 14, 2016 at 12:31 am #

    I read a new article at P&E. She flat out admits that nothing that birthers are hoping for, will come from the big reveal on the 15th.

  110. avatar
    trader jack December 14, 2016 at 12:40 am #

    Reality Check:
    I posted this link before:

    Xerox for Dummies

    I also made a couple of YouTube videos.

    Part 1
    Part 2

    I note , in the first video, that the Xerox did not pixilate the R in Barak which was pixilated in the LFBC, and that would seem to indicate that the LFBC was not done on a Xerox as previously discussed

    Or does It indicate that a Xerox will not copy a text faithfully, or will pixilate a letter in a wordl

  111. avatar
    trader jack December 14, 2016 at 12:47 am #

    Pete: Every qualified, professional expert who looked at the PDF (and there were several, including a professor who invented much of the technology who produced it) all came to the conclusion that there was nothing abnormal about the PDF at all.
    There were also quite a few technically competent people (including Reality Check, NBC and others) who examined it and came to the same conclusion.
    On the other hand, you had World Net Daily and Sheriff Arpaio claiming to have “experts” (not one of whom actually did digital forensics for a living) who swore there was iron-clad evidence it was a fake, and raised, in the case of Arpaio, literally millions of dollars for themselves largely on the back of those claims.

    And how many of those qualified professional experts did digital forensics for a living? Has any qualified digital forensics experts ever provided an opinion?

  112. avatar
    Pete December 14, 2016 at 1:52 am #

    Well I for one am looking forward to the final, er, dump from Shurf Joke Arpaio, Vice Grand Admiral Mikey Zero, the Klown Kars Posse, and any performing hamsters they may bring.

  113. avatar
    Reality Check December 14, 2016 at 10:32 am #

    Maybe performing gerbils would be more appropriate?

    Pete:
    Well I for one am looking forward to the final, er, dump from Shurf Joke Arpaio, Vice Grand Admiral Mikey Zero, the Klown Kars Posse, and any performing hamsters they may bring.

  114. avatar
    trader jack December 14, 2016 at 2:54 pm #

    Pete:
    Well I for one am looking forward to the final, er, dump from Shurf Joke Arpaio, Vice Grand Admiral Mikey Zero, the Klown Kars Posse, and any performing hamsters they may bring.

    And, indeed, I am waiting with bated breath to see if anything new pops up. but I doubt that anything that pops up will change any minds. I just hope that I can remember to turn on the computer, as I doubt any main stream media will be broadcasting it.

    Besides, Joe is probably a Russian agent, working to overthrow the results of the election. LOL

    Or , perhaps, working to get the Arizona electors to change their votes.

    Because everyone knows he was an evil sheriff causing trouble for the innocent Hispanics who were just looking for work in the USA so they could support their family in Mexicol

  115. avatar
    justlw December 14, 2016 at 4:09 pm #

    trader jack: when I went to history it would not recognize my password.

    No political, social or personal commentary intended by me here, but: this would make a great line in a 21st century protest song.

  116. avatar
    justlw December 14, 2016 at 4:21 pm #

    trader jack: I would put the url in, but

    For completeness’ sake, this would be Maryland Law Review (1968), Volume 28, Issue 1, Article 4: “Who Can Be President of the United States: the Unresolved Enigma“, page 30.

    The author, Charles Gordon, “was general counsel of the Immigration and Naturalization Service”, according to one source.

  117. avatar
    justlw December 14, 2016 at 4:39 pm #

    If you ever need its URL in the future, I found a great list on the webz — no password required!

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/bookmarks/citizenship/

  118. avatar
    trader jack December 14, 2016 at 7:26 pm #

    justlw: For completeness’ sake, this would be Maryland Law Review (1968), Volume 28, Issue 1, Article 4: “Who Can Be President of the United States: the Unresolved Enigma“, page 30.

    The author, Charles Gordon, “was general counsel of the Immigration and Naturalization Service”, according to one source.

    Much appreciated as this darn Lenovo with 8.1 jumps around and has the darn hover click which has a 3 second timer or something an is always clicking on something I really don’t want to do. LOL

  119. avatar
    Pete December 14, 2016 at 11:50 pm #

    Reality Check: Maybe performing gerbils would be more appropriate?

    Maybe.

    Gerbils, hamsters, rats. It’s all going to be rodents of one type or another.

    Rodents and refuse.

    So what time is the dung and (no) pony show?

    I see. 4 pm MST.

  120. avatar
    Joey December 15, 2016 at 12:04 am #

    Brand spanking new Arpaio/birther thread over at freerepublic.com
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3504826/posts?q=1&;page=51

  121. avatar
    donna December 15, 2016 at 12:28 am #

    Sheriff Joe Arpaio to talk Obama birth certificate investigation

    According to MCSO, Arpaio and Zullo will be presenting the “newest revelations” to the investigation of Obama’s birth certificate.

    The press conference will be held at 4 p.m. on Thursday in Phoenix.

    RELATED: Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio criticized for probing President Barack Obama’s citizenship

    ABC15 will live stream the event.

    http://www.abc15.com//news/region-phoenix-metro/central-phoenix/sheriff-joe-arpaio-to-talk-obama-birth-certificate-investigation?audiencePageId=1994438278

  122. avatar
    gorefan December 15, 2016 at 1:07 am #

    Arpaio’s deputy chief Sheridan, lawyer Lafrate and Captain Bailey had their criminal contempt cases dismissed. On the grounds Judge Snow’s order was several weeks after statute of limitations had run out.

    http://www.abc15.com/news/crime/sheriff-joe-arpaio-criminal-contempt-case-dismissed-against-arpaio-lieutenants

  123. avatar
    gorefan December 15, 2016 at 1:09 am #

    donna: ABC15 will live stream the event.

    This might be thier livestream website.

    http://www.abc15.com/live

  124. avatar
    Rickey December 15, 2016 at 1:12 am #

    justlw: For completeness’ sake, this would be Maryland Law Review (1968), Volume 28, Issue 1, Article 4: “Who Can Be President of the United States: the Unresolved Enigma“, page 30.

    The author, Charles Gordon, “was general counsel of the Immigration and Naturalization Service”, according to one source.

    And Jack, of course, neglected to quote Gordon’s conclusion:

    “Although the evidence of intent is slender, it seems likely that the natural-born qualification was intended only to exclude those who were not born American citizens, but acquired citizenship by naturalization“.

  125. avatar
    gorefan December 15, 2016 at 1:36 am #

    donna: ABC15 will live stream the event.

    CBS5 will also livestream it. So maybe Morgan Loew will be there. Anyone know if Stephen Lemons is going to be there?

    http://www.cbs5az.com/story/34052555/arpaio-plans-news-conference-on-obama-birth-certificate-investigation

  126. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG December 15, 2016 at 2:17 am #

    gorefan: This might be thier livestream website.

    http://www.abc15.com/live

    It’s gonna amount to nothing, but those last few remaining true believers will declare victory because it’s all “out in the open” now. They’ll try to claim that the end result was only ever to merely “expose” Obama. They’re gonna keep moving those goal posts until they fall right off a cliff. Then comes four more years of “any day now!”, as they hope against hope that Trump will do something. I don’t think I could live like that, so disconnect from reality.

  127. avatar
    Steve December 15, 2016 at 2:49 am #

    Has Arpaio ever explained how his office has jurisdiction since nothing about the “case” has anything to do with Maricopa County?

    If they take whatever their findings are to court, wouldn’t it get thrown out sight unseen because his office had no legal authority to investigate it?

  128. avatar
    justlw December 15, 2016 at 2:57 am #

    I believe the rationale was that the citizens of the great county of which he was humbled to be of service to (i.e. the Surprise Tea Party) begged him to conduct a fair and impartial investigation of the Usurper in Chief.

  129. avatar
    Reality Check December 15, 2016 at 4:25 am #

    Yes, Arpaio has on more than one occasion used the fact that a handful of old white Obama hating Tea Tards didn’t believe the black man’s papers were real as justification for his politically motivated farce headed by Zullo used to raise thousands in donations for his campaign.

    justlw:
    I believe the rationale was that the citizens of the great county of which he was humbled to be of service to (i.e. the Surprise Tea Party) begged him to conduct a fair and impartial investigation of the Usurper in Chief.

  130. avatar
    gorefan December 15, 2016 at 8:22 am #

    Steve:
    Has Arpaio ever explained how his office has jurisdiction since nothing about the “case” has anything to do with Maricopa County?

    If they take whatever their findings are to court, wouldn’t it get thrown out sight unseen because his office had no legal authority to investigate it?

    IIRC, Arpaio and Zullo have both agreed they don’t have jurisdiction but like anyone else they can investigate to their hearts content. Their stated goal was to turn over whatever they found to whoever (congress, FBI, attorney general) who could do something with it.

  131. avatar
    Reality Check December 15, 2016 at 9:40 am #

    Old Joe moaned in several interviews that no one in Congress would look at his pile of crap from Zullo. I can’t see anything changing that.

  132. avatar
    Scientist December 15, 2016 at 10:46 am #

    An editorial in today’s Albany (NY) Times Union urging the Electoral College to reject Trump http://www.timesunion.com/opinion/article/Electors-reject-Mr-Trump-10796574.php

  133. avatar
    Rickey December 15, 2016 at 11:43 am #

    gorefan: IIRC, Arpaio and Zullo have both agreed they don’t have jurisdiction but like anyone else they can investigate to their hearts content.Their stated goal was to turn over whatever they found to whoever (congress, FBI, attorney general) who could do something with it.

    And they still haven’t identified the Federal statute which supposedly has been violated. Sad!

  134. avatar
    Northland10 December 15, 2016 at 1:28 pm #

    Reality Check:
    Old Joe moaned in several interviews that no one in Congress would look at his pile of crap from Zullo. I can’t see anything changing that.

    I would think Congress would be even less interested now. They have no need anymore to “campaign” against Obama by investigating or obstructing him. He’s gone.

    Their immediate future will be spent on trying to get the things they want, or at least making their constituents think they are trying to get things they want. After that, they will be running around trying to figure out how to convince their constituents they actually did something and they don’t really support the person in White House (off year elections are not always kind to party in the WH). If things go really badly, maybe they will be interested but that’s only so they can blame Obama for their bad choices.

  135. avatar
    Joey December 15, 2016 at 1:41 pm #

    Many of the remaining birthers are simply hoping to besmirch President Obama’s legacy. They are banking on Arpaio-Zullo to provide the means to render Barack Obama to Richard Nixon’s historic status.
    The more insane birthers want President Trump to have the legal means to “deport Obama to Kenya.”

  136. avatar
    Joey December 15, 2016 at 1:46 pm #

    Rickey: And they still haven’t identified the Federal statute which supposedly has been violated. Sad!

    Any conceivably applicable criminal federal statute that could be applied has a five year statute of limitations. The crux of Arpaio/Zullo theories has always been forgery.

  137. avatar
    Rickey December 15, 2016 at 1:58 pm #

    Joey: Any conceivably applicable criminal federal statute that could be applied has a five year statute of limitations. The crux of Arpaio/Zullo theories has always been forgery.

    True, but a forgery charge requires criminal intent. If I used a forged birth certificate to obtain a passport or a driver’s license, that would be a crime. But if I forged a birth certificate and just put an image of it on a web site, what is the crime?

  138. avatar
    bob December 15, 2016 at 2:02 pm #

    Rickey: True, but a forgery charge requires criminal intent. If I used a forged birth certificate to obtain a passport or a driver’s license, that would be a crime. But if I forged a birth certificate and just put an image of it on a web site, what is the crime?

    Zullo likes to say, in his oh-so-authoritive voice, that the image improperly influenced the voters of Maricopa County. 🙄

  139. avatar
    Rickey December 15, 2016 at 2:08 pm #

    bob: Zullo likes to say, in his oh-so-authoritive voice, that the image improperly influenced the voters of Maricopa County.

    Ha! Not enough of them, apparently, seeing as how Romney carried Arizona in 2012.

  140. avatar
    Joey December 15, 2016 at 2:37 pm #

    Rickey: True, but a forgery charge requires criminal intent. If I used a forged birth certificate to obtain a passport or a driver’s license, that would be a crime. But if I forged a birth certificate and just put an image of it on a web site, what is the crime?

    I have always told birthers that the President could have had his daughter Sasha do a crayon drawing of his birth certificate and then had it scanned to pdf for whitehouse.gov and there would be no crime.

  141. avatar
    Scientist December 15, 2016 at 2:54 pm #

    bob: Zullo likes to say, in his oh-so-authoritive voice, that the image improperly influenced the voters of Maricopa County. 🙄

    That is no more a crime than making ridiculous campaign promises that you can’t and don’t intend to fulfill. So Trump could be looking at 10 to 20, easily.

  142. avatar
    roadburner December 15, 2016 at 3:22 pm #

    i have a sneaking suspicion that zullo will finally trot out the reed hayes report today.

    but apart from that it’ll probably be along the lines of “the Obama administration conspired to get me out of office, and this has now become a private investigation…please send money to this paypal address”

    it’s going to be amusing whatever happens

  143. avatar
    bob December 15, 2016 at 3:34 pm #

    roadburner:
    i have a sneaking suspicion that zullo will finally trot out the reed hayes report today.

    I suspect Zullo will dramatically waive the report around as a prop; ditto with the “report” from the “international forensic inspector.”

    But the contents will remain a secret, intended only for the “final briefing” that will be dumped on the next administration (to never be seen again).

  144. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG. December 15, 2016 at 4:44 pm #

    “If you want the investigate to continue, we NEED you to donate to Arpaio’s retir-er defense fund!”

    Anywho, can someone post a summary of their little goodbye tour? I’ll be at work by then.

  145. avatar
    Pete December 15, 2016 at 4:55 pm #

    Why anybody livestreams anything by these grifter clowns is a bit of a mystery.

  146. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG. December 15, 2016 at 4:57 pm #

    Pete:
    Why anybody livestreams anything by these grifter clowns is a bit of a mystery.

    People watched Duck Dynasty didn’t they? Watching televised stupidity is a national pastime here.

  147. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund December 15, 2016 at 5:34 pm #

    Second the summary report. Hopefully it wil go on YouTube for us to shred.

  148. avatar
    Dave B. December 15, 2016 at 6:00 pm #

    Here’s a clear case of questionable loyalties for birthers to bite, real hard:
    https://www.army.mil/medalofhonor/groberg/
    He was Immigrationprofblog’s “immigrant of the day” yesterday. An interview from last January:
    http://havokjournal.com/culture/interview-with-moh-recipient-cpt-ret-flo-groberg/#
    “The thing is, I never understood growing up that I was an American, I know I was French, but I grew up with an American father and the culture. So moving to the US was like second nature. I didn’t speak English when I first came, but learned pretty quick through immersion. I went to American school starting in 8th grade and by 10th grade I was in honors English. The whole transition process is real easy.”

  149. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 15, 2016 at 6:05 pm #

    President Arthur was born in Maine, not Canada. You say that “Democrats” were objecting. Name two.

    But this story has been covered extensively on this site.

    trader jack: Now , here you will find that the Democrats were objecting to Charles A Arthur , because he was born in Canada.

  150. avatar
    bob December 15, 2016 at 6:17 pm #

    Right now at the presser, they’re playing a Gillar video “proving” that the Ah’Nee document was the source for Obama’s.

    Stay safe, Doc!

  151. avatar
    bob December 15, 2016 at 6:18 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    President Arthur was born in Maine, not Canada.

    (Vermont.)

  152. avatar
    Dave B. December 15, 2016 at 6:24 pm #

    Zullo’s killing me here. His investigating technique is to exonerate his suspects. Killing me.

  153. avatar
    Pete December 15, 2016 at 6:39 pm #

    I missed the first 35 minutes. What did I miss?

    Wait. I know already.

    Nothing.

  154. avatar
    Joey December 15, 2016 at 6:44 pm #

    bob: (Vermont.)

    Fairfield, Vermont is 19 miles from the Canadian border and some Canadians still claim that he was born there.
    “Was Our 21st President Secretly Canadian? 19th Century Birthers Sure Thought So”
    In late December 1881, a stranger appeared in the small town of Fairfield, Vermont. The New York Times reported that the man, Arthur P. Hinman, was “ostensibly collecting materials for a biography of Vice-president-elect” Chester Alan Arthur, a Republican nominated on the ticket with James Garfield. But the Times speculated that Hinman was really in town for a more nefarious reason: to prove that Arthur was born in Canada, thereby making him ineligible to serve as the President’s second in command.
    [Excerpt]
    “Dr. Case, along with other residents of the area, remembered the birth of a boy named Arthur in 1829 or 1830, but confusion about the newborn’s middle name fueled rumors about where he had been born. The Sun reporter addressed the conspiracy of Arthur’s Canadian birth story, writing that despite a lack of records relating to the Arthur family in Vermont, “those who maintain that the President was born in Canada base their theory on the supposition that the child born in Fairfield was named Chester Abell Arthur” instead of Chester Alan Arthur.

    The reporter discovered that some residents thought that Chester Abell Arthur had been born in Vermont, died as a newborn, and his Canadian-born younger brother Chester Alan Arthur had assumed his identity around 1832.”
    http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/was-our-21st-president-secretly-canadian-19th-century-birthers-sure-thought-so

  155. avatar
    bob December 15, 2016 at 6:47 pm #

    Pete:
    I missed the first 35 minutes. What did I miss?

    Wait. I know already.

    Nothing.

    Same ole same ole, other than the reveal of the second examiner, a mysterious Italian company, “Four Labs.”

  156. avatar
    roadburner December 15, 2016 at 6:58 pm #

    so they are still saying that the online image is the document?

    *facepalms

  157. avatar
    bob December 15, 2016 at 7:00 pm #

    Excuse me: Forlab.

  158. avatar
    Dave B. December 15, 2016 at 7:00 pm #

    Oh man. Zullo got Kinko’s to make a Hawaii state registrar stamp with no problem, but nobody could come up with a “1980” stamp for the SSS registration.

  159. avatar
    roadburner December 15, 2016 at 7:03 pm #

    ok, correct me if i’m wrong, but is zullo setting himself up for being sued by onaka here?

  160. avatar
    Dave B. December 15, 2016 at 7:08 pm #

    So who’s the audience there?

  161. avatar
    bob December 15, 2016 at 7:08 pm #

    MCSO’s presser.

  162. avatar
    roadburner December 15, 2016 at 7:09 pm #

    “we’re not going to answer any questions because we have too much sensitive information to come”

    yeah, like last time

    well that was as much of a loser as we expected

  163. avatar
    Rickey December 15, 2016 at 7:11 pm #

    The Channel 15 feed cut out (at least it did for me) before it was over.

    I wonder who was in the audience, other than the Arpaio and Zullo fans who clapped for them.

  164. avatar
    Pete December 15, 2016 at 7:14 pm #

    Zullo couldn’t even get the name of the Italian company right.

    It’s “Forlab.” Not “Four Labs.”

    What a moron.

  165. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater December 15, 2016 at 7:15 pm #

    lol did they say they’ve been fabricating birth certificates for 5 years?

  166. avatar
    Whatever4 December 15, 2016 at 7:17 pm #

    Much whining that “People mocked us, now there’s real proof.” And bad video and audio. I look forward to seeing the actual video, rather than a video of the video. And what the nine points were up close. Because the angles are one thing, but the actual images seem to show that the letters are different.

  167. avatar
    Rickey December 15, 2016 at 7:22 pm #

    roadburner:
    “we’re not going to answer any questions because we have too much sensitive information to come”

    yeah, like last time

    well that was as much of a loser as we expected

    No release of the Reed report, no release of the Forlab report, and more lies about Hawaii birth certificates.

  168. avatar
    Joey December 15, 2016 at 8:19 pm #

    Reactions from the birthers at the place where the Birther Cult originated:
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3505162/posts?page=5

  169. avatar
    justlw December 15, 2016 at 8:25 pm #

    Dave B.: Oh man. Zullo got Kinko’s to make a Hawaii state registrar stamp with no problem, but nobody could come up with a “1980” stamp for the SSS registration.

    The “handcrafted artisanal stamper” theory truly is the gift that keeps on giving.

  170. avatar
    justlw December 15, 2016 at 8:51 pm #

    Joey:
    Reactions from the birthers at the place where the Birther Cult originated:
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3505162/posts?page=5

    Oh, the memories. It’s the “Birferism Farewell Tour: Greatest Hits”.

    It starts off with surprising candor, referring to the investigation target being “the computer image of the long-form Hawaiian birth certificate image”. So the idea that this is the Stupidest Investigation in the World is dangling right there, waiting for someone to notice. But of course, it is not to be: they then add, “presented to the American people as an official government document”. Well, no.

    But all the classics are there. Fans will not be disappointed:

    “His daddy is Frank Marshall Davis”

    “Arpaio says there’s lot more sensitive information that he won’t reveal in public”

    ““Michelle” (a.k.a Michael) is a fake too.”

    “His transcripts will show him to be a declared foreign student.”

    “He is entirely a Muslim fraud!”

    “Two different certified document examiners (best in the business)”

    “The records were sealed by executive order the NEXT DAY he was sworn in.”

    “Ever ask why NO classmates of him in college AND high school came forward?”

    “There is now no doubt that OZero was born in Kenya.”

    And like all good greatest hits albums, it even includes a new bonus track!

    “If they can hold a hearing on deflated footballs, surely congress could hold a hearing on this fraudulent document!”

  171. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund December 15, 2016 at 9:09 pm #

    So, preliminary examination: starting with the easiest claim to examine, are the three “X in a boxes” identical, as claimed, including the box and the letters above? Answer: NOPE! The X falls in a different location in each of the three boxes, in at least one axis.

    So what about the identical words in identical relative positions? Not so identical. The words themselves may line up, but the individual letters have subtle shifts (and in the case of the ‘O’ in the first ‘Oahu’, not so subtle shifts). This is typical of a typewriter when a person enters the same information on the same form using the same typewriter. Nothing unusual about that.

    And as far as the date stamps? Near as I can tell, one stamp rotates clockwise and the other counter-clockwise in order to match.

    In other words, lies, innuendo, and fabrications.

  172. avatar
    Dave B. December 15, 2016 at 9:20 pm #

    So I reckon the limits of Zullo’s skill as a forger lie somewhere between turning an “8” upside down and forging a Hawaii state registrar stamp. I’d LOVE to see some of those birth certificates he says they forged.

    justlw: The “handcrafted artisanal stamper” theory truly is the gift that keeps on giving.

  173. avatar
    donna December 15, 2016 at 9:37 pm #

    Arpaio plans to turn over the findings to the federal government this month in the hopes that members of Congress will hold a public hearing into the matter, he said.

    He finished the news conference by telling reporters he wouldn’t take any questions because he “sometimes gets diarrhea of the mouth.”

    “I hope we enlightened you to what the real story and evidence is all about regarding this fake, fake birth certificate,” Arpaio said.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/adolfoflores/sheriff-arpaio-insists-obama-birth-certificate-is-fake?utm_term=.gvWLxdyMR#.lopXnvG1d

    LOL I am duly enlightened ….. how about the rest of youze guys?

  174. avatar
    Joey December 15, 2016 at 10:23 pm #

    justlw: Oh, the memories.It’s the “Birferism Farewell Tour: Greatest Hits”.

    It starts off with surprising candor, referring to the investigation target being “the computer image of the long-form Hawaiian birth certificate image”.So the idea that this is the Stupidest Investigation in the World is dangling right there, waiting for someone to notice.But of course, it is not to be: they then add, “presented to the American people as an official government document”.Well, no.

    But all the classics are there.Fans will not be disappointed:

    And like all good greatest hits albums, it even includes a new bonus track!

    I JUST READ A POST FROM BUTTERDEZILLION!!!!

  175. avatar
    Joey December 15, 2016 at 10:26 pm #

    donna:
    Arpaio plans to turn over the findings to the federal government this month in the hopes that members of Congress will hold a public hearing into the matter, he said.

    He finished the news conference by telling reporters he wouldn’t take any questions because he “sometimes gets diarrhea of the mouth.”

    “I hope we enlightened you to what the real story and evidence is all about regarding this fake, fake birth certificate,” Arpaio said.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/adolfoflores/sheriff-arpaio-insists-obama-birth-certificate-is-fake?utm_term=.gvWLxdyMR#.lopXnvG1d

    LOL I am duly enlightened ….. how about the rest of youze guys?

    If Joe had just said “fake” I wouldn’t have been enlightened but he said “fake, fake” and now I am truly enlightened.

  176. avatar
    gorefan December 16, 2016 at 9:16 am #

    W. Kevin Vicklund:
    So, preliminary examination: starting with the easiest claim to examine, are the three “X in a boxes” identical, as claimed, including the box and the letters above?Answer: NOPE!The X falls in a different location in each of the three boxes, in at least one axis.

    So what about the identical words in identical relative positions?Not so identical.The words themselves may line up, but the individual letters have subtle shifts (and in the case of the ‘O’ in the first ‘Oahu’, not so subtle shifts).This is typical of a typewriter when a person enters the same information on the same form using the same typewriter.Nothing unusual about that.

    And as far as the date stamps?Near as I can tell, one stamp rotates clockwise and the other counter-clockwise in order to match.

    In other words, lies, innuendo, and fabrications.

    They are also wrong about the Xs touching the word “no”in the line above the X. On the AP copy the X in box 6d is clearly not touching the “no”.

    The Xerox just colored in some pixels.

  177. avatar
    Dave B. December 17, 2016 at 3:15 am #

    I just came across this low-quality sentence in the Wikipedia article on birthright citizenship:

    “The Naturalization Act of 1790 provided for birthright citizenship for children born out of U.S. jurisdiction to two citizen parents. In 1855, this was extended to children with citizen fathers and noncitizen mothers, and, in 1934, to children with citizen mothers and noncitizen fathers.”

    I wonder where that one came from.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthright_citizenship_in_the_United_States#Statute.2C_by_parentage