# Birther math (part 8) Complex Numbers

The numbers we deal with most often are the natural numbers: 1, 2, 3…. When it comes to money, we need fractions, what we call “rational numbers”. There are special numbers like pi, too. What all of these numbers have in common is that they are “real numbers.” You can order them in a row by size and you can do math with them. Some can be really large (like the US deficit) and some can be really small (like the percentage of Obama eligibility cases won by plaintiffs), but they are all real numbers.

In math there are some questions that cannot be answered by real numbers, like what number squared equals minus 1. For that, mathematicians created a special “imaginary number” and represented it with the symbol i. You can multiply real numbers by imaginary numbers, and you can add them too. When you add a real number and an imaginary number, the result is a complex number and it is written like “6 + 7i” where 6 is the real part and 7 is the imaginary part.

Here’s where birther math comes in. Birthers say that President Obama has spent millions of dollars in legal fees keeping his records hidden. They don’t have any facts behind these numbers; they just make them up, and they get bigger as the story gets told and retold. It is almost certain that Obama has had legal fees, since folks like Philip J. Berg have sued him, claiming all sorts of things from birth in Kenya to renunciation of citizenship in Indonesia. Berg calls Obama a fraud, and Obama has no choice but to defend himself against these charges. While this case, and all the others naming Barack Obama as defendant, have never gone to trial, being summarily dismissed, it stands to reason (even though some lawyers have offered their services pro bono) that there are some legal fees involved. These fees, while estimated, are real. The millions claimed by the birthers are not based on any factual foundation, and so they are imaginary. The result, adding the real part (call it R) and the birther imaginary part (call it B) is the complex number that the birthers cite as Obama’s legal fees: R + Bi.

Birthers, however, do not use the correct mathematical notation and simply add R and Bi and call it real. In the real world B=0.

### 86 Responses to Birther math (part 8) Complex Numbers

1. Lupin July 6, 2010 at 1:44 am  (Quote) #

Speaking of Indonesia, I assume you heard about the movie depicting Obama’s youth there? It was reported in the French press a couple of days ago.

2. SluggoJD July 6, 2010 at 1:49 am  (Quote) #

Wow, what garbage.

I think this quote puts the garbage out where it belongs:

“You decided not to film a scene of the young Obama praying toward Mecca. Why did you make that choice?

It’s in the book. They were trying to use it as a political weapon against the president. It’s not that the president needs to be defended, but they were taking this scene out of context. In the book, while at Assisi, he was always trying to blend in. He went to the priest and tried to grab the bread for Catholic mass. He asks for the bread but he’s not eligible. And in Menteng Shool, when he saw his friends praying in a small mosque inside the school, he borrowed a sarong from his friends. He was trying to imitate his friends, but his sarong kept falling down. His friends couldn’t pray at the time because they were laughing. Every time he stood up his sarong fell off. He was not used to it, not used to the praying. He was just a kid who wanted to blend in. He tried to imitate whatever his friends tried to do. When he saw people praying in a Church, he tried the same thing. People want to take the scene out of context and want to use it as evidence that he’s a Muslim. That’s just not fair….

No more garbage!

3. Jules July 6, 2010 at 7:47 am  (Quote) #

As the birthers try to admit obvious fakes as evidence, I want to know why they have ignored the fact that I have found George W. Bush’s birth certificate and Bill Clinton’s birth certificate.

4. Jules July 6, 2010 at 8:13 am  (Quote) #

I forgot to mention that everyone ignored Hillary Clinton’ birth certificate during the Democratic primaries.

5. ellid July 6, 2010 at 10:31 am  (Quote) #

Jules: As the birthers try to admit obvious fakes as evidence, I want to know why they have ignored the fact that I have found George W. Bush’s birth certificate and Bill Clinton’s birth certificate.

“Occupation: Deceased”

*chortle*

6. Domokun July 6, 2010 at 10:37 am  (Quote) #

Is i times’d by 0 more imaginary or more zero?

7. Majority Will July 6, 2010 at 12:56 pm  (Quote) #

Domokun: Is i times’d by 0 more imaginary or more zero?

I imagine it’s zeroer.

8. Dr. Conspiracy July 6, 2010 at 2:24 pm  (Quote) #

Domokun: Is i times’d by 0 more imaginary or more zero?

I times zero is zero. Or in Obama conspiracy terms, worthless imagination is worthless.

9. Domokun July 6, 2010 at 3:32 pm  (Quote) #

And this is why math is no fun and not invited to my next party. Zeroer should be in dotted lines or something indicating birfer math: tail or long nose.

10. Majority Will July 6, 2010 at 3:53 pm  (Quote) #

Domokun: And this is why math is no fun and not invited to my next party. Zeroer should be in dotted lines or something indicating birfer math: tail or long nose.

I think zeroer also applies to when you think a birther cannot sink any lower with a paranoid driven theory or baseless speculation, he or she does and it’s mind-bogglingly astonishing, exasperating and bizarre.

11. Sef July 6, 2010 at 5:05 pm  (Quote) #

Domokun: And this is why math is no fun and not invited to my next party. Zeroer should be in dotted lines or something indicating birfer math: tail or long nose.

But would you invite infinity to your next party? Could be fun!

12. Reality Check July 6, 2010 at 5:37 pm  (Quote) #

I suppose this article would be a good place to start a “Real Logic vs. Birther Logic” discussion. For example:

Real Logic:

All COLB issued and sealed by a state is prima facie evidence of birth in the location given for all legal purposes.

Barack Obama has a Hawaiian COLB.

Therefore, Barack Obama is considered to have been born in Hawaii for all legal purposes.

Birther Logic:

Sun Yat-sen was issued a fraudulent birth certificate by the Territory of Hawaii in 1904.

Therefore, Barack Obama’s brith certificate from the State of Hawaii is fraudulent.

See how it works? Feel free to add your favorite Birther Logic.

13. Reality Check July 6, 2010 at 6:29 pm  (Quote) #

I see I edited my way into a grammatical error.

14. katahdin July 6, 2010 at 9:23 pm  (Quote) #

Reality Check: I see I edited my way into a grammatical error.

I can do this: as a child, President Obama attended a school that provided religious instruction in both Catholicism and Islam. Therefore, he’s a scary radical Muslim with a scary Muslim wife who goes around baring her arms and legs.

15. Bob Weber July 6, 2010 at 10:35 pm  (Quote) #

IANAL, but I asked a successful attorney if there was any reason why routine filings for dismissal, as were done in the few cases where Obama was named personally as a defendant, wouldn’t simply be included in Obama’s law firm retainer agreement. The answer was “no”.

Obviously, there were small costs in filing the dismissal motions. However, it is quite possible that these small costs were absorbed by the law firm representing Obama.

16. Keith July 6, 2010 at 11:06 pm  (Quote) #

Sef: But would you invite infinity to your next party? Could be fun!

I think I did that a few times back in the 60’s.

But I can’t remember, ’cause I was there.

17. Steve July 6, 2010 at 11:13 pm  (Quote) #

Reality Check: I suppose this article would be a good place to start a “Real Logic vs. Birther Logic” discussion. For example:Real Logic:All COLB issued and sealed by a state is prima facie evidence of birth in the location given for all legal purposes.Barack Obama has a Hawaiian COLB.Therefore, Barack Obama is considered to have been born in Hawaii for all legal purposes. Birther Logic:Sun Yat-sen was issued a fraudulent birth certificate by the Territory of Hawaii in 1904.Therefore, Barack Obama’s brith certificate from the State of Hawaii is fraudulent. See how it works? Feel free to add your favorite Birther Logic.

And if a woman weighs as much as a duck, she must be…a witch!

18. BatGuano July 7, 2010 at 10:06 am  (Quote) #

Steve:
And if a woman weighs as much as a duck, she must be…a witch!

you have just summed up the past two years.

bravo.

19. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 7, 2010 at 10:14 am  (Quote) #

Steve: And if a woman weighs as much as a duck, she must be…a witch!

And what do we do with witches?

20. Howard D Doyle July 7, 2010 at 10:39 am  (Quote) #

katahdin: …with a scary Muslim wife who goes around baring her arms and legs.

Even though I am a rabid right-wing anti-birther, I would defend her right to bare arms.

21. invisible July 7, 2010 at 10:41 am  (Quote) #

Is the case docket current or are there more cases that have not been identified in the case history on this website ?
Thanks

22. DaveH July 7, 2010 at 12:11 pm  (Quote) #

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): And what do we do with witches?

We burn her!

23. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 7, 2010 at 12:19 pm  (Quote) #

DaveH: We burn her!

And what do you burn besides witches?

24. bob July 7, 2010 at 12:23 pm  (Quote) #

invisible: Is the case docket current or are there more cases that have not been identified in the case history on this website ?

Doc’s docket is slightly out of date. But if you want a cross-reference, also check out the birther score card.

25. bjphysics July 7, 2010 at 1:39 pm  (Quote) #

Co-inventor of the Calculus on imaginary numbers.

“The Divine Spirit found a sublime outlet in that wonder of analysis, that portent of the ideal world, that amphibian between being and not being, which we call the imaginary root of negative unity.”

– Gottfried Leibniz

26. BatGuano July 7, 2010 at 1:41 pm  (Quote) #

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
And what do you burn besides witches?

more witches !

27. Dr. Conspiracy July 7, 2010 at 2:11 pm  (Quote) #

bob: Doc’s docket is slightly out of date. But if you want a cross-reference, also check out the birther score card.

The Scorecard is the most comprehensive and up-to-date list of cases to my knowledge and a link to it (and other resources) is at the bottom of my Docket page.

It looks like my docket page on the Internet isn’t the current copy. I’ll get that taken care of tonight.

28. bjphysics July 7, 2010 at 2:16 pm  (Quote) #

Doc, I discovered this on my own but others probably have also. I always thought it was an interesting result.

By Euler’s formula: exp(ix) = cos(x)+isin(x)

So i can be represented as exp(i PI/2) = cos(PI/2)+isin(PI/2) = i

Or more inclusively as exp(i PI/2 + i2PIn) = cos(PI/2+2PIn)+isin(PI/2+2PIn) = i

Then, i^i = [exp(i PI/2 +i2PIn]^i = exp(-PI/2)exp(-2nPI)

No matter what value (Principle or otherwise) you take it can be generally stated:

The Imaginary Number raised to the Imaginary Power is a Real Number.

Nurse Ratched says I have to take my medication now so I’m off to watch an Imaginary baseball game with my imaginary peeps.

29. ellid July 7, 2010 at 2:19 pm  (Quote) #

bjphysics
The Imaginary Number raised to the Imaginary Power is a Real Number.Nurse Ratched says I have to take my medication now so I’m off to watch an Imaginary baseball game with my imaginary peeps.

As long as you take your medication from a Klein bottle, it’s all good.

30. Dr. Conspiracy July 7, 2010 at 2:23 pm  (Quote) #

invisible: Is the case docket current or are there more cases that have not been identified in the case history on this website ?

As commented previously, the most comprehensive list is the Birther Scorecard (link at the bottom of my Docket page). Last I heard, the count of cases stood at 67. Some cases filed against Obama don’t meet my criteria for being on topic and some I exclude out of consideration for the plaintiffs in special cases. (Don’t know if any of these exclusions are on the Scorecard).

31. Gorefan July 7, 2010 at 3:01 pm  (Quote) #

Dr. C –

No word yet on FOIA request for you, Allen or Strunk?

Wasn’t the government suppose to finish its search for documents “on or befoe June 30, 2010.”?

Would the info just be mailed to Allen, or is there some type of handing over ceremony?

As to the type of info that might be expected. I know today the passports are swiped and the embedded chip or magnetic strip produces a record of some ones comings and goings. But what about back in the 1960’s? How good of records did they keep? Would they even keep records of a US citizen leaving and returning to the US?

And for Mr. Soetoro, was he ever a US citizen? What type of records would they have on him?

I am just wondering if this is going to be a very thin file.

32. G July 7, 2010 at 3:35 pm  (Quote) #

Dr. Conspiracy:
As commented previously, the most comprehensive list is the Birther Scorecard (link at the bottom of my Docket page). Last I heard, the count of cases stood at 67. Some cases filed against Obama don’t meet my criteria for being on topic and some I exclude out of consideration for the plaintiffs in special cases. (Don’t know if any of these exclusions are on the Scorecard).

The version of the birther scorecard I’ve been referencing is up to date. In fact, it was last updated today, July 7th.

It lists 71 total Birther Cases.

The Obama Defense column (far right) and the comments, both in the cells themselves & at the bottom provide any info of what is known of defense actions & spending costs.

33. G July 7, 2010 at 3:39 pm  (Quote) #

G:
The version of the birther scorecard I’ve been referencing is up to date.In fact, it was last updated today, July 7th.It lists 71 total Birther Cases.The Obama Defense column (far right) and the comments, both in the cells themselves & at the bottom provide any info of what is known of defense actions & spending costs.http://tesibria.typepad.com/whats_your_evidence/BIRTHER%20CASE%20LIST.pdf

In case anyone doesn’t have time right now to check out that link, I did want to point out that out of the 71 Birther court cases they’ve tracked, only 3 involved Obama’s defense team needing to be involved and only 9 involved Government defense.

Therefore, this just is further proof that the Birther’s pull imaginary numbers out of their rear as such a minute percentage of the total cases would have any defense costs associated to them at all, and even in those, as all were dismissed fairly quickly, it would only be minimal cost amounts for basic filings to dismiss, all of which succeeded.

34. Saint James July 7, 2010 at 4:17 pm  (Quote) #

Reality Check: Sun Yat-sen was issued a fraudulent birth certificate by the Territory of Hawaii in 1904.
Therefore, Barack Obama’s brith certificate from the State of Hawaii is fraudulent.
See how it works? Feel free to add your favorite Birther Logic.

Fact: …It’s not written in the Bible that Eve gave Adam an apple. What was written is Eve gave Adam a fruit.

Birther:… It’s not written in the Bible that the fruit is not an apple.

Fact:… It’s known that Obama has a certification of live birth from Hawaii.

Birther:… It’s known that Obama has a certification of live birth from Hawaii but not a birth certificate.

35. Sef July 7, 2010 at 5:20 pm  (Quote) #

Reality Check: I suppose this article would be a good place to start a “Real Logic vs. Birther Logic” discussion. For example:Real Logic:All COLB issued and sealed by a state is prima facie evidence of birth in the location given for all legal purposes.Barack Obama has a Hawaiian COLB.Therefore, Barack Obama is considered to have been born in Hawaii for all legal purposes.
Birther Logic:Sun Yat-sen was issued a fraudulent birth certificate by the Territory of Hawaii in 1904.Therefore, Barack Obama’s brith certificate from the State of Hawaii is fraudulent.
See how it works? Feel free to add your favorite Birther Logic.

Sun Yat Sen was trying to hide. I don’t think there is any evidence that a 4 day old baby Obama was running away from anything. I haven’t heard anyone mention a King Herod situation. (Ooo, ooo, new conspiracy theory!!)

36. Rickey July 7, 2010 at 5:30 pm  (Quote) #

Gorefan: Dr. C -No word yet on FOIA request for you, Allen or Strunk?Wasn’t the government suppose to finish its search for documents “on or befoe June 30, 2010.”?

The government said that the search on Allen’s request would be completed by June 30, but processing may require an additional 5 weeks or so. They estimate that the processing (and presumably the production of the documents) will be complete by August 5.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/32719415/ALLEN-v-SOETORO-38-RESPONSE-in-Opposition-re-37-MOTION-to-Compel-gov-uscourts-azd-454579-38-0

And for Mr. Soetoro, was he ever a US citizen?What type of records would they have on him?I am just wondering if this is going to be a very thin file.

Lolo Soetoro was never a U.S. citizen, so it is questionable what, if any, records the U.S. government would have on him. Allen should receive some records pertaining to Obama’s mother, but he will be getting nothing which pertain to Obama or “Barry Soetoro.”

37. Saint James July 7, 2010 at 6:10 pm  (Quote) #

Sef: Sun Yat Sen was trying to hide. I don’t think there is any evidence that a 4 day old baby Obama was running away from anything. I haven’t heard anyone mention a King Herod situation. (Ooo, ooo, new conspiracy theory!!)

That will be a nice conspiracy theory but hardly new. check this out…

http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/01/hawaiian-birth-certificate-its-a-fake/

38. Sef July 7, 2010 at 6:26 pm  (Quote) #

Saint James:
That will be a nice conspiracy theory but hardly new. check this out…http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/01/hawaiian-birth-certificate-its-a-fake/

Yes, I saw that. The “new” CT was in relation to PBO.

39. Gorefan July 7, 2010 at 7:21 pm  (Quote) #

Rickey

Thanks for the info.

I guess I misunderstood the August 5th date. I thought Allen would get what ever files; then on August 5th, DOS and DOHS would ask the judge for a summary judgement that they had met the courts requirements; then Allen had until August 26th to respond. It’s amazing how strung out this stuff can be.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/28404912/ALLEN-v-SOETORO-33-STATUS-REPORT-JOINT-gov-uscourts-azd-454579-33-0

40. Saint James July 7, 2010 at 8:41 pm  (Quote) #

Sef: Yes, I saw that. The “new” CT was in relation to PBO.

Oh I’m sorry, indeed the “King Herod” theory is new LOL! I better run toward Egypt LOL!

41. Rickey July 7, 2010 at 11:50 pm  (Quote) #

Gorefan: RickeyThanks for the info.I guess I misunderstood the August 5th date.I thought Allen would get what ever files; then on August 5th, DOS and DOHS would ask the judge for a summary judgement that they had met the courts requirements; then Allen had until August 26th to respond.It’s amazing how strung out this stuff can be.http://www.scribd.com/doc/28404912/ALLEN-v-SOETORO-33-STATUS-REPORT-JOINT-gov-uscourts-azd-454579-33-0

After the government complies by producing whatever documents it intends to produce, the lawsuit still has to be disposed of. Allen could voluntarily dismiss the lawsuit, or the government could file for Summary Judgment on the grounds that the FOIA request has been fully complied with. Or, Allen could continue to press his case by arguing that the government hasn’t fully complied. I supposed it depends upon what the government turns over to him. Presumably he could also appeal the order which dismissed his claims for the records of Obama/Soetoro, but it’s clear under the statute that he isn’t entitled to Obama’s records.

42. bob July 8, 2010 at 1:38 am  (Quote) #

Rickey: Presumably he could also appeal the order which dismissed his claims for the records of Obama/Soetoro, but it’s clear under the statute that he isn’t entitled to Obama’s records.

In fact, Allen already tried to do that, but the 9th bounced his appeal because of this remaining matter.

Once this case is finally disposed of, Allen can (and likely will) raise the Obama/Soetoro issue.

And I suspect the government isn’t going to turn over what it has until right around Aug. 5, and then file its motion for summary judgment. (And perhaps soon after, Doc C. will get his request honored as well.)

43. Dick Whitman July 8, 2010 at 8:06 am  (Quote) #

If Obama is not and never has been Indonesian National and Hawaii born, Barry Soetoro, then why can’t Allen see Barry Soetoro’s DHS and DoS records? Certainly, the DHS and DoS would have records on an Hawaii born child who has moved to Indonesia and became an Indonesian. I bet the FBI and the CIA have a few docs on Barry, too.

44. Dr. Conspiracy July 8, 2010 at 8:13 am  (Quote) #

bob: And I suspect the government isn’t going to turn over what it has until right around Aug. 5, and then file its motion for summary judgment. (And perhaps soon after, Doc C. will get his request honored as well.)

I’m beginning to think this is the case.

45. Dick Whitman July 8, 2010 at 8:58 am  (Quote) #

In reviewing some of the old Docs on Scribd, I noticed the Soetoro v Soetoro divorce papers listed one minor, dependent child, Maya; and one child over the age of 18 dependent upon litigants for education expenses. Is that the Barry Soetoro who is not Barack Hussein Obama II? Or what?

If this is the case, we have a Barry Soetoro born in Hawaii and Indonesian National with a mother and father with the last name Soetoro and a sister named Maya who is not Barack Hussein Obama II.

Twilight Zone

46. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 8, 2010 at 9:14 am  (Quote) #

Dick Whitman: If Obama is not and never has been Indonesian National and Hawaii born, Barry Soetoro, then why can’t Allen see Barry Soetoro’s DHS and DoS records? Certainly, the DHS and DoS would have records on an Hawaii born child who has moved to Indonesia and became an Indonesian. I bet the FBI and the CIA have a few docs on Barry, too.

Because Barry Soetoro does not exist

47. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 8, 2010 at 9:15 am  (Quote) #

Dick Whitman: In reviewing some of the old Docs on Scribd, I noticed the Soetoro v Soetoro divorce papers listed one minor, dependent child, Maya; and one child over the age of 18 dependent upon litigants for education expenses. Is that the Barry Soetoro who is not Barack Hussein Obama II? Or what?If this is the case, we have a Barry Soetoro born in Hawaii and Indonesian National with a mother and father with the last name Soetoro and a sister named Maya who is not Barack Hussein Obama II.Twilight Zone

Speculation as usual. Did Lolo Soetoro not have other children?

48. Sef July 8, 2010 at 10:26 am  (Quote) #

Dick Whitman: If Obama is not and never has been Indonesian National and Hawaii born, Barry Soetoro, then why can’t Allen see Barry Soetoro’s DHS and DoS records? Certainly, the DHS and DoS would have records on an Hawaii born child who has moved to Indonesia and became an Indonesian. I bet the FBI and the CIA have a few docs on Barry, too.

Dick, when did you quit beating your wife?

49. ellid July 8, 2010 at 10:32 am  (Quote) #

Dick Whitman: If Obama is not and never has been Indonesian National and Hawaii born, Barry Soetoro, then why can’t Allen see Barry Soetoro’s DHS and DoS records? Certainly, the DHS and DoS would have records on an Hawaii born child who has moved to Indonesia and became an Indonesian. I bet the FBI and the CIA have a few docs on Barry, too.

Because’s no such person as Barry Soetoro. One cannot view the records of someone who doesn’t exist.

50. Scientist July 8, 2010 at 10:33 am  (Quote) #

Dick Whitman: Certainly, the DHS and DoS would have records on an Hawaii born child who has moved to Indonesia and became an Indonesian.

Why? Millions of Americans live overseas. Many of them, as well as millions of American citizens in the US hold, or are eligible for, other nationalities. The US government has no way of tracking this, since that is a matter of the laws of foreign countries. When you apply for a US passport, you are not asked about other passports you might hold or be eligible for, nor does holding other passports disqualify you from holding a US passport.

51. Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 10:38 am  (Quote) #

Scientist:
Why?Millions of Americans live overseas.Many of them, as well as millions of American citizens in the US hold, or are eligible for, other nationalities.The US government has no way of tracking this, since that is a matter of the laws of foreign countries.When you apply for a US passport, you are not asked about other passports you might hold or be eligible for, nor does holding other passports disqualify you from holding a US passport.

“a matter of the laws of foreign countries”

Which is exactly the same reason dual citizenship has no bearing on the natural born status of a U.S. citizen.

52. Passerby July 8, 2010 at 11:15 am  (Quote) #

Dick Whitman: In reviewing some of the old Docs on Scribd, I noticed the Soetoro v Soetoro divorce papers listed one minor, dependent child, Maya; and one child over the age of 18 dependent upon litigants for education expenses. Is that the Barry Soetoro who is not Barack Hussein Obama II? Or what?

If this is the case, we have a Barry Soetoro born in Hawaii and Indonesian National with a mother and father with the last name Soetoro and a sister named Maya who is not Barack Hussein Obama II.

I don’t understand what you’re getting at here. At all. The child’s name is not mentioned. If the child’s name was listed as Barry Soetoro, then maybe your conclusion would make sense, but it isn’t. I have no reason to suspect that the 18 year old child mentioned isn’t Barack Obama. The assumption that the child’s name was Barry Soetoro is …. where on earth do you get that?

53. Jules July 8, 2010 at 12:57 pm  (Quote) #

Scientist:
When you apply for a US passport, you are not asked about other passports you might hold or be eligible for, nor does holding other passports disqualify you from holding a US passport.

Those who acquire a foreign nationality after acquiring US citizenship do have to submit an explanation when they apply for US passports. The “Acts or Conditions” section of a US passport includes a declaration that the applicant has not, inter alia, been naturalised in a foreign state or declared allegiance to a foreign state. For this reason, a person born with US citizenship who later acquires a foreign nationality needs to cross out the particular acts that he has performed and submit an explanatory statement.

Of course, naturalisation in a foreign country does not usually result in loss of United States citizenship. The current form of 8 U.S.C. 1481 has been written so as to comply with the Supreme Court’s rulings in Afroyim v. Rusk and Vance v. Terrazas. The specified potentially expatriating acts only lead to actual loss of citizenship when the person acted voluntarily and intended to relinquish US citizenship.

A simple statement that the applicant performed certain acts at certain times but intended to retain US citizenship would normally be sufficient for the State Department to conclude that US citizenship was not lost. If it wished to argue that US citizenship was lost, then the burden would be on it to prove renunciatory intent by the preponderance of the evidence. In practice, the State Department’s policy is normally to presume that an applicant did not intend to relinquish US citizenship on acquiring foreign nationality unless he states otherwise.

In Obama’s case, you might be able to argue that he could theoretically be obligated to disclose his acquisition of Kenyan nationality that occurred when Kenya became independent. However, I think that the use of the word “performed” above the signature line on US passports implies that the statement is only made with respect to actions affirmatively taken rather than involuntary acquisition of a nationality by operation of the law of a foreign country. (For the sake of argument, I disregard the doubts about the validity of his parents’ marriage and whether he acquired British and Kenyan nationality.) Furthermore, Obama may have been ignorant when making his US passport applications of his automatic acquisition of Kenyan nationality.

Obama’s acquisition of Kenyan nationality could not possibly be construed as expatriating because it was not voluntary. As I recall, the version of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 in force in 1963 required that naturalisation overseas be voluntary to be expatriating. Even if the law then in force provided for loss of US citizenship due to involuntary naturalisation, all relevant case law indicates that it would have been unconstitutional.

54. Jules July 8, 2010 at 1:02 pm  (Quote) #

I would be curious to know exactly why my most recent comment has been stuck in moderation. Does it have to do with the fact that the word for an international travel document contains three letters that can be used alone as a rude reference to the posterior?

55. Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 1:03 pm  (Quote) #

Jules: I would be curious to know exactly why my most recent comment has been stuck in moderation. Does it have to do with the fact that the word for an international travel document contains three letters that can be used alone as a rude reference to the posterior?

Wouldn’t “Passerby” get stuck in moderation every time?

56. AnotherBird July 8, 2010 at 2:06 pm  (Quote) #

Dick Whitman: In reviewing some of the old Docs on Scribd, I noticed the Soetoro v Soetoro divorce papers listed one minor, dependent child, Maya; and one child over the age of 18 dependent upon litigants for education expenses. Is that the Barry Soetoro who is not Barack Hussein Obama II? Or what?If this is the case, we have a Barry Soetoro born in Hawaii and Indonesian National with a mother and father with the last name Soetoro and a sister named Maya who is not Barack Hussein Obama II. Twilight Zone

I always thought that birthers were complaining about there was no release of divorce papers. Hmmm …. quite interesting. Is it the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing, or is it the other way around? Yes, birthers are trapped between reality and the twilight zone.

57. AnotherBird July 8, 2010 at 2:09 pm  (Quote) #

Dick Whitman: In reviewing some of the old Docs on Scribd, I noticed the Soetoro v Soetoro divorce papers listed one minor, dependent child, Maya; and one child over the age of 18 dependent upon litigants for education expenses. Is that the Barry Soetoro who is not Barack Hussein Obama II? Or what?If this is the case, we have a Barry Soetoro born in Hawaii and Indonesian National with a mother and father with the last name Soetoro and a sister named Maya who is not Barack Hussein Obama II. Twilight Zone

I always thought that birthers were complaining about there was no release of divorce papers. Hmmm …. quite interesting. Is it the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing, or is it the other way around? Yes, birthers are trapped between reality and the twilight zone.

(chuckle)

58. Dick Whitman July 8, 2010 at 2:51 pm  (Quote) #

ellid:
Because’s no such person as Barry Soetoro.One cannot view the records of someone who doesn’t exist.

No, Obama’s attorney said he was not and never has been Barry Soetoro. There’s nothing to indicate Barry Soetoro does not exist.

We know Barry Soetoro exists because his school record indicates he was born in Hawaii, his father is Lolo Soetoro and he’s an Indonesian National. Since he was born in Hawaii and currently a citizen of a foreign nation, he’s not entitled to privacy protection under FOIA. And since he was born in Hawaii, there must be some exit paperwork for lil’ Barry when he moved to Indonesia.

59. bob July 8, 2010 at 2:59 pm  (Quote) #

Dick Whitman: No, Obama’s attorney said he was not and never has been Barry Soetoro. There’s nothing to indicate Barry Soetoro does not exist.

Sooo…Barry Soetoro is Barack Obama’s evil twin? Like in Star Trek?

60. Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 2:59 pm  (Quote) #

F. RENUNCIATION FOR MINOR CHILDREN

Parents cannot renounce U.S. citizenship on behalf of their minor children. Before an oath of renunciation will be administered under Section 349(a)(5) of the INA, a person under the age of eighteen must convince a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer that he/she fully understands the nature and consequences of the oath of renunciation, is not subject to duress or undue influence, and is voluntarily seeking to renounce his/her U.S. citizenship.

http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html

61. Rickey July 8, 2010 at 3:17 pm  (Quote) #

Dick Whitman: If Obama is not and never has been Indonesian National and Hawaii born, Barry Soetoro, then why can’t Allen see Barry Soetoro’s DHS and DoS records? Certainly, the DHS and DoS would have records on an Hawaii born child who has moved to Indonesia and became an Indonesian. I bet the FBI and the CIA have a few docs on Barry, too.

You are operating under the mistaken impression, shared by most birthers, that the records of foreign nationals are not covered by FOIA. In fact, as the court in Allen v. Soetoro noted,

“Plaintiff seems to argue that “Barry Soetoro” (“aka Barack Obama”) is a not a U.S. citizen and therefore is not entitled to the privacy rights at issue; however, aliens are entitled to privacy rights similar to those of U.S. citizens under the FOIA.See Judicial Watch, Inc. v. DHS, 514 F. Supp. 2d 7, 9 n. 4 (D.D.C. 2007); Schiller v. INS, 205 F. Supp.2d 648, 662 (W.D. Tex. 2002).”

If there is/was such a person as Barry Soetoro, and if the government has any records of him, Allen must produce a signed authorization by Soetoro or proof that Soetoro is dead before those records can be released to him.

62. Dick Whitman July 8, 2010 at 3:44 pm  (Quote) #

Majority Will: F. RENUNCIATION FOR MINOR CHILDRENParents cannot renounce U.S. citizenship on behalf of their minor children. Before an oath of renunciation will be administered under Section 349(a)(5) of the INA, a person under the age of eighteen must convince a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer that he/she fully understands the nature and consequences of the oath of renunciation, is not subject to duress or undue influence, and is voluntarily seeking to renounce his/her U.S. citizenship.http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html

You left off the best part. Renunciation is irrevocable unless you successfully appeal the decision by the US SoS to issue a Certificate of Loss of Nationality and you are not a minor under the age of 18 years and 6 months.

That’s right, a minor can renounce their citizenship. And the best part is that a minor can revoke their renunciation without a judicial proceeding by appearing before CAO and announcing his intention to revoke until they are 18 years and 6 months old. After that, a judicial proceeding is required to revoke.

If the SoS denied a minor a CLN while issuing a CLN to the custodial parent, then the minor would be subject to deportation. Consequently, minors are routinely issued CLNs when the custodial parent is issued a CLN to prevent deportation that breaks a family up. When the minor reaches the age of majority, he/she can revoke without a judicial proceeding after acknowledging he/she could be subject to deportation back to the US if they stay in the country with their parents.

63. Sef July 8, 2010 at 3:53 pm  (Quote) #

Dick Whitman:
You left off the best part. Renunciation is irrevocable unless you successfully appeal the decision by the US SoS to issue a Certificate of Loss of Nationality and you are not a minor under the age of 18 years and 6 months.That’s right, a minor can renounce their citizenship. And the best part is that a minor can revoke their renunciation without a judicial proceeding by appearing before CAO and announcing his intention to revoke until they are 18 years and 6 months old. After that, a judicial proceeding is required to revoke.If the SoS denied a minor a CLN while issuing a CLN to the custodial parent, then the minor would be subject to deportation. Consequently, minors are routinely issued CLNs when the custodial parent is issued a CLN to prevent deportation that breaks a family up. When the minor reaches the age of majority, he/she can revoke without a judicial proceeding after acknowledging he/she could be subject to deportation back to the US if they stay in the country with their parents.

All this talk about a CLN: So F***ing What? There is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that either Obama or Stanley Ann ever had one.

64. Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 4:13 pm  (Quote) #

Dick Whitman:
You left off the best part. Renunciation is irrevocable unless you successfully appeal the decision by the US SoS to issue a Certificate of Loss of Nationality and you are not a minor under the age of 18 years and 6 months.That’s right, a minor can renounce their citizenship. And the best part is that a minor can revoke their renunciation without a judicial proceeding by appearing before CAO and announcing his intention to revoke until they are 18 years and 6 months old. After that, a judicial proceeding is required to revoke.If the SoS denied a minor a CLN while issuing a CLN to the custodial parent, then the minor would be subject to deportation. Consequently, minors are routinely issued CLNs when the custodial parent is issued a CLN to prevent deportation that breaks a family up. When the minor reaches the age of majority, he/she can revoke without a judicial proceeding after acknowledging he/she could be subject to deportation back to the US if they stay in the country with their parents.

What’s your point? Do you have a point? I don’t think you do.

65. Dick Whitman July 8, 2010 at 4:20 pm  (Quote) #

Rickey:
You are operating under the mistaken impression, shared by most birthers, that the records of foreign nationals are not covered by FOIA. In fact, as the court in Allen v. Soetoro noted,
“Plaintiff seems to argue that “Barry Soetoro” (“aka Barack Obama”) is a not a U.S. citizen and therefore is not entitled to the privacy rights at issue; however, aliens are entitled to privacy rights similar to those of U.S. citizens under the FOIA.See Judicial Watch, Inc. v. DHS, 514 F. Supp. 2d 7, 9 n. 4 (D.D.C. 2007); Schiller v. INS, 205 F. Supp.2d 648, 662 (W.D. Tex. 2002).”If there is/was such a person as Barry Soetoro, and if the government has any records of him, Allen must produce a signed authorization by Soetoro or proof that Soetoro is dead before those records can be released to him.

You left off the best part … legal aliens are entitled to privacy rights similar to those of …

66. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 8, 2010 at 4:30 pm  (Quote) #

Dick Whitman: You left off the best part. Renunciation is irrevocable unless you successfully appeal the decision by the US SoS to issue a Certificate of Loss of Nationality and you are not a minor under the age of 18 years and 6 months.That’s right, a minor can renounce their citizenship. And the best part is that a minor can revoke their renunciation without a judicial proceeding by appearing before CAO and announcing his intention to revoke until they are 18 years and 6 months old. After that, a judicial proceeding is required to revoke.If the SoS denied a minor a CLN while issuing a CLN to the custodial parent, then the minor would be subject to deportation. Consequently, minors are routinely issued CLNs when the custodial parent is issued a CLN to prevent deportation that breaks a family up. When the minor reaches the age of majority, he/she can revoke without a judicial proceeding after acknowledging he/she could be subject to deportation back to the US if they stay in the country with their parents.

You’re not making any sense. You just contradicted yourself. First you said a minor cannot appeal a renunciation if they are not a minor under 18 years and 6 months. Then you say they can revoke their renunciation if they are up to 18 years and 6 months. These are two contradicting points you made.

67. Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 4:39 pm  (Quote) #

Dick Whitman:
You left off the best part … legal aliens are entitled to privacy rights similar to those of …

68. Jules July 8, 2010 at 4:41 pm  (Quote) #

Majority Will:
“a matter of the laws of foreign countries”Which is exactly the same reason dual citizenship has no bearing on the natural born status of a U.S. citizen.

I am tempted to ask my MP to propose a private member’s bill to declare that any person who holds or has ever held US citizenship shall be deemed to have automatically acquired British citizenship at the moment he/she acquired US citizenship. Such a bill should state that British citizenship acquired by virtue of that act shall be incapable of being renounced. It should apply both retrospectively and prospectively.

Of course, the NHS would be overwhelmed if all uninsured or underinsured Americans had the right to move to the UK, so I suppose there should be an additional provision stating that no right of abode arises for any person whose sole claim to British citizenship is by virtue of that act.

So, I have established that by the birthers’ premises, the British Parliament can easily render everyone ineligible to be President of the United States.

69. Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 4:51 pm  (Quote) #

Jules:
I am tempted to ask my MP to propose a private member’s bill to declare that any person who holds or has ever held US citizenship shall be deemed to have automatically acquired British citizenship at the moment he/she acquired US citizenship. Such a bill should state that British citizenship acquired by virtue of that act shall be incapable of being renounced. It should apply both retrospectively and prospectively.Of course, the NHS would be overwhelmed if all uninsured or underinsured Americans had the right to move to the UK, so I suppose there should be an additional provision stating that no right of abode arises for any person whose sole claim to British citizenship is by virtue of that act.So, I have established thatby the birthers’ premises, the British Parliament can easily render everyone ineligible to be President of the United States.

According to birther illogic, any country in the world at any time can render everyone ineligible. Iran, Cuba and North Korea would jump at the opportunity.

One of my main beefs with birthers is their utter contempt and disrespect for the Constitution and U.S. laws.

70. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 8, 2010 at 4:53 pm  (Quote) #

Jules: I am tempted to ask my MP to propose a private member’s bill to declare that any person who holds or has ever held US citizenship shall be deemed to have automatically acquired British citizenship at the moment he/she acquired US citizenship. Such a bill should state that British citizenship acquired by virtue of that act shall be incapable of being renounced. It should apply both retrospectively and prospectively.Of course, the NHS would be overwhelmed if all uninsured or underinsured Americans had the right to move to the UK, so I suppose there should be an additional provision stating that no right of abode arises for any person whose sole claim to British citizenship is by virtue of that act.So, I have established that by the birthers’ premises, the British Parliament can easily render everyone ineligible to be President of the United States.

Yeah except every guy named Juan. Ha you see what I did there every Juan

71. sfjeff July 8, 2010 at 4:55 pm  (Quote) #

“That’s right, a minor can renounce their citizenship.”

And Sven, despite numerous requests, you have never provided us an example of a minor successfully renouncing his citizenship. So while such a renunciation may be technically feasible, we have no reason to assume that a consular officer would accept such a denunciation from a 6 year old. Or that courts would even accept such a denunciation.

“And the best part is that a minor can revoke their renunciation without a judicial proceeding by appearing before CAO and announcing his intention to revoke until they are 18 years and 6 months old.”

in other words a minor can chose to revoke their reununciation up until they are 18.5 years old. And if a minor did so, they would technically have never lost their citizenship..

“Consequently, minors are routinely issued CLNs when the custodial parent is issued a CLN to prevent deportation that breaks a family up.”

Once again- a Sven assertion with no evidence it is more than your imagination. Citations if you want to continue the discussion, otherwise its just another one of your whimsys

72. Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 4:56 pm  (Quote) #

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
Yeah except every guy named Juan.Ha you see what I did there every Juan

😀 Jose can you see by the dawn’s early light . . .

73. Jules July 8, 2010 at 5:06 pm  (Quote) #

Majority Will:
According to birther illogic, any country in the world at any time can render everyone ineligible. Iran, Cuba and North Korea would jump at the opportunity.

We should also ask the birthers to identify whether they will count citizenship conferred by the laws of a country whose existence is disputed. I don’t know if the birthers would say that citizenship conferred by the laws of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus or the Republic of South Ossetia would count.

74. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 8, 2010 at 5:08 pm  (Quote) #

sfjeff: “That’s right, a minor can renounce their citizenship.”And Sven, despite numerous requests, you have never provided us an example of a minor successfully renouncing his citizenship. So while such a renunciation may be technically feasible, we have no reason to assume that a consular officer would accept such a denunciation from a 6 year old. Or that courts would even accept such a denunciation. “And the best part is that a minor can revoke their renunciation without a judicial proceeding by appearing before CAO and announcing his intention to revoke until they are 18 years and 6 months old.”in other words a minor can chose to revoke their reununciation up until they are 18.5 years old. And if a minor did so, they would technically have never lost their citizenship..“Consequently, minors are routinely issued CLNs when the custodial parent is issued a CLN to prevent deportation that breaks a family up.”Once again- a Sven assertion with no evidence it is more than your imagination. Citations if you want to continue the discussion, otherwise its just another one of your whimsys

Exactly Jeff so even in Sven’s twisted logic even if Obama supposedly renounced his citizenship at 6 he could just as easily revoked that renunciation when he moved back to Hawaii before he was 18. So it makes Sven’s crazy logic moot

75. Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 5:12 pm  (Quote) #

Jules:
We should also ask the birthers to identify whether they will count citizenship conferred by the laws of a country whose existence is disputed. I don’t know if the birthers would say that citizenship conferred by the laws of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus or the Republic of South Ossetia would count.

Or Narnia. 😉

76. Rickey July 8, 2010 at 5:56 pm  (Quote) #

Dick Whitman:
You left off the best part … legal aliens are entitled to privacy rights similar to those of …

I left off nothing. The U.S. District Court said “aliens.” not “legal aliens.” Another figment of Sven’s imagination.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/26220535/Allen-v-Soetoro-ORDER-DISMISSING-CASE-16-Feb-1-2010

See the footnote on page 3.

In any event, where is your evidence that “Barry Soetoro” is an illegal alien? What happened to your theory that he was allowed to enter Hawaii as a refugee?

77. Dr. Conspiracy July 8, 2010 at 9:34 pm  (Quote) #

Jules: I would be curious to know exactly why my most recent comment has been stuck in moderation.

78. Slartibartfast July 9, 2010 at 10:54 pm  (Quote) #

bjphysics: Doc, I discovered this on my own but others probably have also. I always thought it was an interesting result.By Euler’s formula: exp(ix) = cos(x)+isin(x)So i can be represented as exp(i PI/2) = cos(PI/2)+isin(PI/2) = iOr more inclusively as exp(i PI/2 + i2PIn) = cos(PI/2+2PIn)+isin(PI/2+2PIn) = iThen, i^i = [exp(i PI/2 +i2PIn]^i = exp(-PI/2)exp(-2nPI)No matter what value (Principle or otherwise) you take it can be generally stated:
The Imaginary Number raised to the Imaginary Power is a Real Number.Nurse Ratched says I have to take my medication now so I’m off to watch an Imaginary baseball game with my imaginary peeps.

Nicely derived – now all the brithers need to do is figure out how to raise their imaginary numbers to imaginary powers…

79. Slartibartfast July 9, 2010 at 10:55 pm  (Quote) #

ellid:
As long as you take your medication from a Klein bottle, it’s all good.

One of my colleagues keeps a Klein bottle on his desk…

80. Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 11:06 pm  (Quote) #

Slartibartfast:
One of my colleagues keeps a Klein bottle on his desk…

I had a Klein bottle until my cat, Schrödinger got too curious and well, you can only not imagine the rest. Or maybe you can.

81. misha July 10, 2010 at 12:09 am  (Quote) #

Slartibartfast: One of my colleagues keeps a Klein bottle on his desk…

I’ll drink to that – or maybe I won’t.

82. Majority Will July 10, 2010 at 12:13 am  (Quote) #

misha:
I’ll drink to that – or maybe I won’t.

I once dated a Möbius stripper. She was ALL over me. It was a little weird.

83. misha July 10, 2010 at 12:29 am  (Quote) #

Majority Will: I once dated a Möbius stripper. She was ALL over me. It was a little weird.

You know her too?! Wow! She gave me her personal portrait.

84. Majority Will July 10, 2010 at 12:38 am  (Quote) #

misha:
You know her too?! Wow! She gave me her personal portrait.

Yeah. I tried to Escher all obfuscation about our relationship. To no a veil.

85. Sef July 10, 2010 at 10:24 am  (Quote) #

Majority Will:
I once dated a Möbius stripper. She was ALL over me. It was a little weird.

They are so one-sided, though.

86. Majority Will July 10, 2010 at 10:42 am  (Quote) #

Sef:
They are so one-sided, though.

She said we had infinite possibilities. I thought she was too superficial.

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