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The occasional open thread

Here’s a place to add comments about Obama Conspiracy topics that aren’t related to a particular article.

615 Responses to The occasional open thread

  1. avatar
    James July 23, 2010 at 10:02 pm #

    CommieTunes – Obama, Communist Usurper – Ineligible to Serve – Marxist / Socialist
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp_p0s824g
    Nice Compilation.

  2. avatar
    BatGuano July 23, 2010 at 10:39 pm #

    James: Marxist / Socialist

    the birther cry of credibility.

  3. avatar
    Estiveo July 23, 2010 at 11:04 pm #

    Buh-buh-but I’m SURE that I readon many birfer blogs that Appuzo has scored a major victory here which shows that the President…isn’t.

    I, for one, am sweating bullets!

  4. avatar
    AnotherBird July 23, 2010 at 11:08 pm #

    James: CommieTunes – Obama, Communist Usurper – Ineligible to Serve – Marxist / Socialist

    James, grasping for straws because a lack of a coherent argument again.

  5. avatar
    James July 23, 2010 at 11:30 pm #

    The MGEN then says the House and Senate need to serve notice on Obama to clear up his eligibility or resign.
    http://networkedblogs.com/67pQU

    I think the general makes reasonable request.

    Obama has a black cloud hover over his head that he needs to clear up.

    While many birthers will contend he is not a NBC, I really do feel that NBC argument is really not shared by the political talking heads but more the general birther populas.

    If Obama does produce his long-form BC as well as passport records to show he is a US Citizen, then I believe many political talking heads while consider the matter closed.

  6. avatar
    G July 23, 2010 at 11:59 pm #

    James: The MGEN then says the House and Senate need to serve notice on Obama to clear up his eligibility or resign.
    http://networkedblogs.com/67pQUI think the general makes reasonable request.Obama has a black cloud hover over his head that he needs to clear up.While many birthers will contend he is not a NBC, I really do feel that NBC argument is really not shared by the political talking heads but more the general birther populas.If Obama does produce his long-form BC as well as passport records to show he is a US Citizen, then I believe many political talking heads while consider the matter closed.

    Well you can choose to “believe” whatever you want James.

    However, what is fairly certain is that Obama will continue to simply ignore you birthers, as he should. All I can say for you is good luck finding someone else to vote for in 2012, but there is a fairly good chance you’ll simply have to get used to your “disappointment” until 2017.

  7. avatar
    misha July 24, 2010 at 12:01 am #

    James and other Denialists: The Kenya birth scenario is physically impossible:

    http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/03/obama-born-in-kenya-no.html

    Sorry.

  8. avatar
    Steve July 24, 2010 at 12:15 am #

    James: The MGEN then says the House and Senate need to serve notice on Obama to clear up his eligibility or resign.http://networkedblogs.com/67pQUI think the general makes reasonable request.Obama has a black cloud hover over his head that he needs to clear up.While many birthers will contend he is not a NBC, I really do feel that NBC argument is really not shared by the political talking heads but more the general birther populas.If Obama does produce his long-form BC as well as passport records to show he is a US Citizen, then I believe many political talking heads while consider the matter closed.

    The matter IS closed.

  9. avatar
    Majority Will July 24, 2010 at 12:21 am #

    Birthers are waging a shameful smear campaign against the state government of Hawaii.

  10. avatar
    aarrgghh July 24, 2010 at 12:24 am #

    James: If Obama does produce his long-form BC as well as passport records to show he is a US Citizen, then I believe many political talking heads while consider the matter closed.

    well, obama did produce his bc in 2008, after which many political talking heads, such as bill o’reilly, ann coulter, sean hannity, michelle malkin, glenn beck, chris matthews, michael medved, david horowitz, as well as his chief political rivals, john mccain and hillary clinton, all publicly considered the matter closed. even birfer flagellant rag wnd signed off on the bc.

    (of course, the matter wasn’t truly closed until the night of nov 4 2008, but that would be nit-picking.)

  11. avatar
    sfjeff July 24, 2010 at 12:51 am #

    Who the hell is MGEN and why should I care?

    though it is a surprise to see James express an actual opinion rather than just cut and paste someone else’s thoughts.

  12. avatar
    AnotherBird July 24, 2010 at 1:17 am #

    James: The MGEN then says the House and Senate need to serve notice on Obama …

    The M-who? Never heard of them.

    James you are starting to get silly.

  13. avatar
    Lupin July 24, 2010 at 2:09 am #

    James: Marxist / Socialist

    You really are a dunce, aren’t you? You just blurt out words without any clues as to what they mean, do you?

    You might as well call Obama a catamite or a cathar. It would make just as much sense.

    You obviously have never read Marx and have no idea what socialism (which itself has different incarnations) is all about. Even reading the wiki entry would be an improvement.

    When it comes to State intervention in the economy (to focus on asingle issue) you have no clues that Obama is to the right of Richard Nixon, who, using your insane and totally incorrect definition, would be the greatest Socialist president in US history after FDR?

    That your narrow bigoted mind hates Obama because you can’t accept that a man of color be a legitimate president, I can understand, but that you and your ilk hurl what you think in your deranged mind are insults without the least understanding of their actual meaning, like a child screaming booga booga in the night, is just utterly mad.

    Your country has been practicing socialism for nearly a century now, without which you would have no aerospace and no defense industries; you would never have gone to the Moon and army-wise, you’d be weak as a kitten. You wouldn’t have some of the best universities in the world, nor any agriculture left standing in the midwest.

    Your tribe of blabbering gibbons spit on what made the USA great day after day, and with each spittle, you’re driving your country further and further behind.

    You’re pathetic.

  14. avatar
    misha July 24, 2010 at 2:22 am #

    Lupin: When it comes to State intervention in the economy (to focus on asingle issue) you have no clues that Obama is to the right of Richard Nixon, who, using your insane and totally incorrect definition, would be the greatest Socialist president in US history after FDR?

    Federal loan guarantees started with Nixon, for Lockheed. Nixon started wage and price controls to tame inflation, he recognized China and abrogated the treaty with Taiwan, and created the EPA. He also paid from his own pocket, RT tickets on a commercial flight rather than Air Force One, for a visit to California to set an example. Egypt recognized Israel, because of Nixon.

    Nixon was a Quaker, and did not wear religion on his sleeve.

    In fact, Nixon was a liberal, who became greedy. Google it.

  15. avatar
    Lupin July 24, 2010 at 2:37 am #

    This quick bit of research is for James the witless:

    Nixon initiated the Environmental Decade by signing the National Environmental Policy Act, the Clean Air Act of 1970 and the Federal Water Pollution Control Act amendments of 1972, as well as establishing many government agencies. These included the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), and the Council on Environmental Quality.

    Nixon re-imposed price controls in June 1973 (echoing his 1971 plan), as food prices rose.

    Nixon also dramatically increased spending on federal employees’ salaries.

    In his 1974 State of the Union address, Nixon called for comprehensive health insurance.
    On February 6, 1974, he introduced the Comprehensive Health Insurance Act. Nixon’s plan would have mandated employers to purchase health insurance for their employees, and in addition provided a federal health plan, similar to Medicaid, that any American could join by paying on a sliding scale based on income. (You guys missed a major opportunity there.)

    On January 2, 1974, Nixon signed a bill that lowered the maximum U.S. speed limit to 55 miles per hour to conserve gasoline.
    I could go on but you can read the wiki entry for yourself.

    Obama could only DREAM of being as “socialist” as Nixon, and in any event, these are some of the policies which made your country great. Your country was richer, healthier and moire respected and envied.

    I swear, it’s as if you guys were a fifth column of Invaders tasked with destroying the United States.

    Of course you don’t realize it because you’re as “moran”.

  16. avatar
    nc1 July 24, 2010 at 3:04 am #

    misha: James and other Denialists: The Kenya birth scenario is physically impossible:http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/03/obama-born-in-kenya-no.htmlSorry.

    Impossible – think again!
    Ask your leftist blogger friend for a breakdown of costs of travel by ship from Mombasa to Honolulu.

    A check of government records could tell us whether Obama’s mother was outside the country in August 1961. Perhaps this is the reason why Dr.C cannot get the straight answer to his FOIA request from January 2009.

    There is even a lawsuit, filed by Kenneth Allen, to have Stanley Ann’s travel records released. The court gave a deadline for records to be released (June 30, 2010). It is three weeks past the court ordered deadline and the government is still hiding this information. What happened to the promise of transparency – just another election campaign lie?

  17. avatar
    Lupin July 24, 2010 at 3:11 am #

    nc1: What happened to the promise of transparency – just another election campaign lie?

    I’m shocked, shocked! Politicians make promises to get elected. Shocked I tell you!

    Of course when they’re white, we forgive them,. It’s only when they’re shifty, lazy n*** that we KNOW deep in our little bigoted hearts that there must be some kind of fraud being perpetrated because they could NEVER be elected presidents, could they?

  18. avatar
    misha July 24, 2010 at 3:12 am #

    nc1: Impossible – think again!Ask your leftist blogger friend for a breakdown of costs of travel by ship from Mombasa to Honolulu.

    The blogger who wrote that is me. Look at a map, and see the ship route that you claim.

    And you are clinically insane.

  19. avatar
    Majority Will July 24, 2010 at 3:18 am #

    nc1:
    Impossible – think again!
    Ask your leftist blogger friend for a breakdown of costs of travel by ship from Mombasa to Honolulu.A check of government records could tell us whether Obama’s mother was outside the country in August 1961.Perhaps this is the reason why Dr.C cannot get the straight answer to his FOIA request from January 2009.
    There is even a lawsuit, filed by Kenneth Allen, to have Stanley Ann’s travel records released. The court gave a deadline for records to be released (June 30, 2010).It is three weeks past the court ordered deadline and the government is still hiding this information. What happened to the promise of transparency – just another election campaign lie?

    We’ve been down your Kenyan rabbit hole too many times.

    Get new material without the desperate and paranoid, “I’m making up crap that sounds good to me” angle. And ask your left hand about your right hand. They both hold puppets. Perhaps this is why birthers are ridiculed.

    Transparency (as has been explained to you ad nauseam, naturalized citizen) means in administration not for legally protected personal information sought by guano psychotic information thieves.

  20. avatar
    AnotherBird July 24, 2010 at 3:42 am #

    nc1:
    Impossible – think again!
    …. The court gave a deadline for records to be released (June 30, 2010).It is three weeks past the court ordered deadline and the government is still hiding this information. What happened to the promise of transparency – just another election campaign lie?

    Reading your comments it is just another birther smear lie. No court has order for the release of any records relating to the president or any of his family member. How many must the courts say “NO” for you to understand the word “no?” Is it 71 times?

    Transparency refers to how government works and makes decisions. Anything more you might be referring to “the transparency of an ice cube.”

  21. avatar
    nc1 July 24, 2010 at 4:56 am #

    misha: The blogger who wrote that is me. Look at a map, and see the ship route that you claim.And you are clinically insane.

    Dr. Misha, two questions for you:

    1. What is it that makes a trip from Mombasa to Honolulu by ship impossible?

    2. What is your explanation for US government’s refusal to release travel records for Stanley Ann?

  22. avatar
    nc1 July 24, 2010 at 5:09 am #

    Majority Will: We’ve been down your Kenyan rabbit hole too many times.Get new material without the desperate and paranoid, “I’m making up crap that sounds good to me” angle. And ask your left hand about your right hand. They both hold puppets. Perhaps this is why birthers are ridiculed.Transparency (as has been explained to you ad nauseam, naturalized citizen) means in administration not for legally protected personal information sought by guano psychotic information thieves.

    Do you consider Dr. C a “guano psychotic information thief”?

    He has a FOIA request for Stanley Ann’s passport records (pending for 18 months).

  23. avatar
    misha July 24, 2010 at 5:12 am #

    nc1: Dr. Misha, two questions for you:1. What is it that makes a trip from Mombasa to Honolulu by ship impossible?2. What is your explanation for US government’s refusal to release travel records for Stanley Ann?

    – What is it that makes a trip from Mombasa to Honolulu by ship impossible?

    You tell me the route, and how long it would take to travel 11K miles, with a newborn, a diaper case, and luggage. You still haven’t looked at a map.

    2 – What is your explanation for US government’s refusal to release travel records for Stanley Ann?

    Show me who made the request, and how it was refused. Links, please.

  24. avatar
    misha July 24, 2010 at 5:15 am #

    nc1: He has a FOIA request for Stanley Ann’s passport records (pending for 18 months).

    It’s pending. It has not been refused. BTW, I don’t care.

  25. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 24, 2010 at 6:49 am #

    nc1: A check of government records could tell us whether Obama’s mother was outside the country in August 1961. Perhaps this is the reason why Dr.C cannot get the straight answer to his FOIA request from January 2009.

    The information I have is that entry and exit records do not exist that far back (1961). My FOIA is simply for a record of when passports were issued.

  26. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 24, 2010 at 7:00 am #

    sfjeff: Who the hell is MGEN and why should I care?

    1. Retired Army Major General Jerry Ralph Curry.

    2. Don’t know.

  27. avatar
    Expelliarmus July 24, 2010 at 7:24 am #

    misha: You still haven’t looked at a map.

    I love the complete ignorance of world geography shared by all birthers.

    I’m sure they all think that Mombasa is just a stone’s throw away from Obama’s grandmother’s village – and I’m pretty sure that the idea of a voyage by ship comes from people who are unaware of the existence of the Indian Ocean (they probably think that Africa has a Pacific coast line).

  28. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 24, 2010 at 7:44 am #

    I created this article as a place to move the 27 comments from my “Reading between the lines” article, none of which were about that article. Rather James (who is smelling more like a troll every day) hijacked it by dumping a provocative off-topic comment first before any other discussion could take root.

    Do not feed the trolls.

  29. avatar
    Jules July 24, 2010 at 8:26 am #

    Expelliarmus:
    I love the complete ignorance of world geography shared by all birthers.
    I’m sure they all think that Mombasa is just a stone’s throw away from Obama’s grandmother’s village –and I’m pretty sure that the idea of a voyage by ship comes from people who are unaware of the existence of the Indian Ocean (they probably think that Africa has a Pacific coast line).

    I suppose reservations on a ship from Mombasa may become the new stock answer to the obvious question as to why Mrs Obama would give birth in a city that was not only thousands of miles from her residence, but also hundreds of miles from her husband’s home village.

    Good luck getting the ship to Hawaii within four days of the birth to register it. Not having the child listed in any passport would add considerable difficulty to the journey.

    Oh, the grandmother registered the birth? Under Hawaiian law, she would need to be able to show that there was an unattended birth that no parent could report within the required time. So you’re saying that she was able to get a registrar to break the law and allow the registration even though there would be:
    1. No presence of the child and no confirmation that the child even existed
    2. Nothing to confirm that the child’s parents had died or were unable to report the birth
    3. Nothing to confirm that the parents would be unable to to come and register the birth within the required time

    The usual birther response is, “A registrar could have just registered the birth without asking the questions they should have.” If there is any reason to believe this, then I would expect there to be documented cases of this happening under the birth registration system in place whilst Hawaii was a state. Why have the birthers not presented one? Why does the State Department accept Hawaiian Certifications of Live Birth as primary evidence of citizenship for passport issuing purposes?

    Also, if Obama was born in Kenya, then why has no person found any record for him in the Kenya’s public birth registration records? (If your response cites a certificate supposedly issued in the name of the Republic of Kenya at a time when Kenya was a constitutional monarchy, then I will laugh at you.)

  30. avatar
    dch July 24, 2010 at 8:46 am #

    If Obama does produce his long-form BC as well as passport records to show he is a US Citizen, then I believe many political talking heads while consider the matter closed.

    The matter was closed in June 2008 – not that it was ever a open matter. You birthers just made it all up.

    1. He did present his legal birth proof to the general public and the official agency that is the final authority in birth records in HI confirmed the facts.
    2. He HAS a US passport.

    Where am I wrong exactly.

    What evidence do you have to the contrary?
    Be specific.
    This is why every birther claim and case has collapsed upon contact with reality.
    There have been zero positive judicial outcomes to date in over 70 cases. Every birther case has failed as fast as is possible. These pointless failed cases have been appealed to strecth out the farce to drive paypal donations (income to the lawyers) and failed as predicted.
    You will note that the birther lawyers have provided no accounting records to show how much money has been raised and spent.
    How come Mario won’t show his 2009 tax returns? Why don’t birthers demand to see those?

    Dupes

  31. avatar
    James July 24, 2010 at 9:35 am #

    James: CommieTunes – Obama, Communist Usurper – Ineligible to Serve – Marxist / Socialist
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp_p0s824g
    Nice Compilation.

    James – bigot, traitor, liar. I’ll take the Marxist over him any day, thank you very much.

  32. avatar
    Ellid July 24, 2010 at 9:35 am #

    Whoops, that was me. Early morning blues, I’m afraid!

  33. avatar
    Ellid July 24, 2010 at 9:38 am #

    nc1:
    Impossible – think again!
    Ask your leftist blogger friend for a breakdown of costs of travel by ship from Mombasa to Honolulu.A check of government records could tell us whether Obama’s mother was outside the country in August 1961.Perhaps this is the reason why Dr.C cannot get the straight answer to his FOIA request from January 2009.
    There is even a lawsuit, filed by Kenneth Allen, to have Stanley Ann’s travel records released. The court gave a deadline for records to be released (June 30, 2010).It is three weeks past the court ordered deadline and the government is still hiding this information. What happened to the promise of transparency – just another election campaign lie?

    Oh, NC, NC. You’re beating a horse so dead it disintegrated over a year ago. Why are you still at it? And why won’t you admit that you’ve done this all before? Afraid that someone besides me will look up all those threads on the Independent and see just how insane you are?

  34. avatar
    James July 24, 2010 at 9:43 am #

    I saw this is an old WND article. Make you really wonder….

    The third president born in a medical facility, George W. Bush, was welcomed into the world in 1946 at the Grace–New Haven Community Hospital – later renamed the Yale–New Haven Hospital – in New Haven, Conn.

    No plaques or monuments mark the hospital as Bush’s birthplace, though the communications office does have a 2-page information packet on the birth and the history of the hospital at the time, including a biographical paragraph on the doctor who attended the 43rd president’s birth.

    “Margaret (Maggie) Tyler, M.D., delivered the president,” the packet explains. “Dr. Tyler was a member of the New Haven Hospital and then the Grace–New Haven Hospital medical staff in the department of obstetrics and gynecology from about 1922-1949. She served a residency in obstetrics at New Haven Hospital from 1919-21 and joined the staff in 1922 as an associate obstetrician.”

    Isn’t that HIPPA violation????

  35. avatar
    Majority Will July 24, 2010 at 9:49 am #

    nc1: Dr. Misha, two questions for you:1.What is it that makes a trip from Mombasa to Honolulu by ship impossible?2. What is your explanation for US government’s refusal to release travel records for Stanley Ann?

    1. You have a difficult time parsing reality especially with regards to a pregnant woman in 1961. Not that it matters. You make crap up to fit your delusions because you’re in pain.

    2. I wouldn’t rule out bureaucratic complications.

  36. avatar
    Majority Will July 24, 2010 at 9:52 am #

    nc1:
    Do you consider Dr. C a “guano psychotic information thief”?He has a FOIA request for Stanley Ann’s passport records (pending for 18 months).

    No. But your far fetched fantasies puts you there.

  37. avatar
    BatGuano July 24, 2010 at 10:29 am #

    nc1: 1.What is it that makes a trip from Mombasa to Honolulu by ship impossible?

    not impossible…….. just insane bat crap improbable. from what i could find of the passenger ship routes the journey would look something like this:

    kenya > tanzania > sri lanka > india > singapore > philippines > hawaii

  38. avatar
    Majority Will July 24, 2010 at 10:35 am #

    BatGuano:
    not impossible…….. just insane bat crap improbable. from what i could find of the passenger ship routes the journey would look something like this:kenya > tanzania > sri lanka > india > singapore > philippines > hawaii

    Misha has a nice rundown:
    http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/03/obama-born-in-kenya-no.html

  39. avatar
    gorefan July 24, 2010 at 11:25 am #

    nc1: There is even a lawsuit, filed by Kenneth Allen, to have Stanley Ann’s travel records released. The court gave a deadline for records to be released (June 30, 2010).

    Actually, your facts in the Allen case are wrong. The court did not give the government a deadline. The parties involved reached an agreement, whereby the government would search for documents and that the search should be completed by June 30th. There was no date assigned for when any documents had to be turned over.

  40. avatar
    BatGuano July 24, 2010 at 11:58 am #

    Majority Will:
    Misha has a nice rundown:

    great rundown by misha but it doesn’t go into the option of ocean liner travel ( which is why i suspect nc1 keeps going back to it ). so……. i crunched a few numbers.

    – going off the route i posted above the voyage is 12,755 miles each way.
    – at 33mph ( the cruising speed of the queen mary, one of the fastest ocean liners at that time ) the trip would have taken just over 16 days ( 386.5 hours ) each way.
    – take into consideration a minimum of one day in each port ( not including kenya/tanzania and hawaii ) and we’re up to 20 days each way.

    a 40 day round-trip ocean voyage is nc1’s probable scenario.

  41. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 24, 2010 at 12:06 pm #

    James: Isn’t that HIPPA [sic] violation????

    That’s “HIPAA”. There are several factors that would have to be considered before one could determine if the hospital brochure you describe about the birth of George Bush is is a HIPAA violation.

    1. Did George W. Bush sign an authorization for the release of information?
    2. Was the document published before December 28, 2000, the effective date of the HIPAA Privacy Rule?

    There may be other considerations too, including differing legal opinions on the status of protected health information collected before the Rule went into effect.

    I wondered if there really was such an information packet or whether this was another birther urban legend. It appears that the hospital did go on the record about Bush’s birth in a 2002 article in the New York Times.

  42. avatar
    Majority Will July 24, 2010 at 12:11 pm #

    BatGuano:
    great rundown by misha but it doesn’t go into the option of ocean liner travel ( which is why i suspect nc1 keeps going back to it ). so……. i crunched a few numbers.- going off the route i posted above the voyage is 12,755 miles each way.
    – at 33mph ( the cruising speed of the queen mary, one of the fastest ocean liners at that time ) the trip would have taken just over 16 days ( 386.5 hours ) each way.
    – take into consideration a minimum of one day in each port ( not including kenya/tanzania and hawaii ) and we’re up to 20 days each way.a 40 day round-trip ocean voyage is nc1′s probable scenario.

    Occam’s razor.

    Well done. That’s just what a young, pregnant girl wants to do when a nice hospital like the Kapi’olani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital in Honolulu was only a few minutes away.

  43. avatar
    dunstvangeet July 24, 2010 at 12:41 pm #

    nc1: Dr. Misha, two questions for you:1.What is it that makes a trip from Mombasa to Honolulu by ship impossible?2. What is your explanation for US government’s refusal to release travel records for Stanley Ann?

    The time period. The birth was registered on August 8, 1961, and Obama was born on (according to every birth certificate that I’ve seen) August 4, 1961. That is a 4-day trip.

    The trip would have taken 10,728 miles (approx). that is a straight shot, and probably would have been more. If you take it over the 4 days, that is 2,682 miles a day (approx), and 111 miles an hour. The trip by boat would take most likely over a week.

    To give you an approximation, the fastest Ocean Liners travel at 40 knots, or approximately 40 miles per hour. For what you state to be possible, the ship would have to go about 3 times as fast as the fastest Ocean Liners go.

  44. avatar
    Rickey July 24, 2010 at 12:52 pm #

    Majority Will:
    Well done. That’s just what a young, pregnant girl wants to do when a nice hospital like the Kapi’olani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital in Honolulu was only a few minutes away.

    Not to mention that travel by ocean liner would have been far more expensive than flying, considering that travel by ocean liner would have included 40 days of meals, etc.

  45. avatar
    Majority Will July 24, 2010 at 12:59 pm #

    Rickey:
    Not to mention that travel by ocean liner would have been far more expensive than flying, considering that travel by ocean liner would have included 40 days of meals, etc.

    The proponent’s mental ability of this theory is a hamburger, small fries, a drink and a fun toy shy of a Happy Meal.

  46. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 24, 2010 at 1:10 pm #

    Stanley Ann: Honey, I think the baby is coming. We should go to the hospital.
    Barack Sr.: Grab your passport and let’s go!

  47. avatar
    BatGuano July 24, 2010 at 1:18 pm #

    Rickey:
    …. considering that travel by ocean liner would have included 40 days of meals, etc.

    they could have packed 240 bologna and cheese sandwiches. it’s not impossible.

  48. avatar
    Majority Will July 24, 2010 at 1:19 pm #

    BatGuano:
    they could have packed 240 bologna and cheese sandwiches. it’s not impossible.

    LMAO

  49. avatar
    Historyscoper July 24, 2010 at 1:23 pm #

    Obama is the #1 mystery man of our times. Is he a closet Marxist, closet Muslim, Freemason, Zionist puppet, Bilderberger, Manchurian Candidate? Scope his shady past fast free and accurate anytime with the Historyscoper and see how deep his rabbit hole goes:

    http://historyscoper.com/obamascope.html

  50. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 24, 2010 at 1:31 pm #

    Re: Allen v Soetoro FOIA suit:

    This is the government’s response filed on June 7, 2010:

    Although Defendants may require additional time to process Plaintiff’s requests beyond this estimated date for completion of the searches, Defendants fully expect that processing will be completed prior to August 5 (the filing deadline).

  51. avatar
    Northland10 July 24, 2010 at 1:54 pm #

    nc1: A check of government records could tell us whether Obama’s mother was outside the country in August 1961. Perhaps this is the reason why Dr.C cannot get the straight answer to his FOIA request from January 2009.

    Dr. Conspiracy: The information I have is that entry and exit records do not exist that far back (1961). My FOIA is simply for a record of when passports were issued.

    Government travel records? Forgive me as I am a little confused. I do not recall the US Government keeping tabs on their citizens travels. My only records would be flight tickets and visa stamps on my passport (minus my various travels into Canada). When reentering, the custom agents only took a quick look at my document(s) (passport, or drivers license for Canada, which was all that was needed then).

    Isn’t monitoring the travel of the citizens something found in totalitarian government countries?

  52. avatar
    Majority Will July 24, 2010 at 1:58 pm #

    Northland10: Government travel records?Forgive me as I am a little confused.I do not recall the US Government keeping tabs on their citizens travels.My only records would be flight tickets and visa stamps on my passport (minus my various travels into Canada).When reentering, the custom agents only took a quick look at my document(s) (passport, or drivers license for Canada, which was all that was needed then).Isn’t monitoring the travel of the citizens something found in totalitarian government countries?

    That’s apropos for nc the naturalized citizen from eastern Europe.

  53. avatar
    Sef July 24, 2010 at 1:58 pm #

    Majority Will:
    LMAO

    Since they were from Hawaii it would probably be Spam.

  54. avatar
    richCares July 24, 2010 at 2:02 pm #

    there are birther comments of Obama’s mother sending postcards from a boat. In the mind of a birther that’s proof of travel to Mombasa!
    .
    After college, I left Hawaii and went to Seattle, while there I took advantage of the many ferries and took mini vacations, often I purchased and mailed postcards from these boats to friends. Really great and inexpensive mini vacations. When Obama’s mother went to seattle she did the same. From that we get “she mailed post cards from her boat trip to Mombasa. That’s the birther mentality! That’s a bit more than reading between the lines.

  55. avatar
    Majority Will July 24, 2010 at 2:17 pm #

    Sef:
    Since they were from Hawaii it would probably be Spam.

    Mrs Bun: Have you got anything without Spam?
    Waitress: Well, Spam, egg, sausage, and Spam; that’s not got much Spam in it.
    Mrs Bun: I don’t want any Spam!
    Mr Bun: Why can’t she have egg, bacon, Spam, and sausage?
    Mrs Bun: That’s got Spam in it!
    Mr Bun: Not as much as Spam, egg, sausage, and Spam,
    Mrs. Bun: Look, could I have egg, bacon, Spam and sausage, without the Spam?
    Waitress: Bleurgh!
    Mrs. Bun: What do you mean “Ugh?” I don’t like Spam!
    Vikings: [singing] Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam… Lovely Spam! Wonderful Spam!

  56. avatar
    richCares July 24, 2010 at 2:25 pm #

    Birthers think that the passport records will show trips to Mombasa. The problem is that passports don’t do that. The visa’s stamped in your passport book are not sent to some central agency, they are not sent anywhere. The only way you can tell where someone went is to have the original passport book in your hand. This is probably a bit over a birthers head.

  57. avatar
    Jules July 24, 2010 at 3:01 pm #

    richCares: Birthers think that the passport records will show trips to Mombasa. The problem is that passports don’t do that. The visa’s stamped in your passport book are not sent to some centralagency, they are not sent anywhere. The only way you can tell where someone went is to have the original passport book in your hand. This is probably a bit over a birthers head.

    When someone renews their US passport today, the State Department cancels the passport (by stamping “CANCELLED” across the page opposite the identity page and punching several holes through the front and back covers) and returns the old passport when it delivers the new one. For this reason, the State Department does not put cancelled passports in its archives.

    I don’t know what standard practice was in previous decades, but I doubt that it differed much.

    The State Department could take photocopies of all visa pages before issuing the new passport and returning the old one, but I doubt that it would bother. Among other things, this would increase the administrative burden of processing a passport renewal.

    The reason for returning the cancelled passport is that there may be a visa in the old passport that remains valid and capable of being used by presenting both the old and new passports.

  58. avatar
    Sef July 24, 2010 at 3:03 pm #

    Majority Will:
    Mrs Bun: Have you got anything without Spam?
    Waitress: Well, Spam, egg, sausage, and Spam; that’s not got much Spam in it.
    Mrs Bun: I don’t want any Spam!
    Mr Bun: Why can’t she have egg, bacon, Spam, and sausage?
    Mrs Bun: That’s got Spam in it!
    Mr Bun: Not as much as Spam, egg, sausage, and Spam,
    Mrs. Bun: Look, could I have egg, bacon, Spam and sausage, without the Spam?
    Waitress: Bleurgh!
    Mrs. Bun: What do you mean “Ugh?” I don’t like Spam!
    Vikings: [singing] Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam… Lovely Spam! Wonderful Spam!

    When we were in HI this past winter we were astounded to see the varieties of Spam on the store shelves. Probably the only place that this many types are sent.

  59. avatar
    Majority Will July 24, 2010 at 3:11 pm #

    Sef:
    When we were in HI this past winter we were astounded to see the varieties of Spam on the store shelves.Probably the only place that this many types are sent.

    U.S Navy legend has it that on a six month submarine tour the passageways are lined with supplies and upon return, the passageways are clear except for the cases of Spam.

  60. avatar
    Jules July 24, 2010 at 3:31 pm #

    A commenter asked on Orly Taitz’s blog:

    If you paid the fine wouldn’t that give you standing since you would have been personally harmed by the Usurper? See what they did in the 3rd circuit. They dismissed the assessment for frivilous case when Mario indicated he would seek discovery if they assessed attorney’s fees.

    My comment in response is stuck in moderation (and will probably remain there eternally). It says:

    No.

    Standing requires not only an alleged wrong and being individually harmed, but also a close causal link between the two. Sanctions are not directly caused by the alleged ineligibility, as it was Taitz’s conduct that was the basis for the sanctions.

    If sanctions alone could lead to standing, then just about anyone who lacks standing and files a claim would be gain standing by virtue of the fact that they were motivated by the alleged legal wrong and then lost money (in the form of legal costs) as a result.

    Standing is only one hurdle that you have to overcome to get discovery. Another is justiciability of the claim. The political question doctrine arguably reserves disputes such as this one to Congress. Specifically, the powers of Congress to impeach a President and certify the electoral college vote leave the matter to them.

    Additionally, the principles of collateral estoppel or res judicata would almost certainly prevent the question of the appropriateness of Taitz’s loss of $20,000 from being re-litigated in a new case.

    Of course, Orly Taitz says that she has standing because she asked for discovery and stands to imminently lose money. And she wonders why she keeps losing.

  61. avatar
    Jules July 24, 2010 at 6:08 pm #

    Oddly enough, my comment on Taitz’s blog survived moderation. Additionally, Taitz responded:

    1. I was sanctioned specifically because I was questioning eligibility, nothing else
    2. eligibility is not a political question doctrine, but an issue of fact to be decided by the trier of the fact, it is an issue of fraud committed
    3. the issue was never litigated, so collateral estoppel and res judicata do not apply
    good try though 🙂

    I have responded with the following (which is still stuck in moderation at the moment):

    1. You were sanctioned for your submission of the motion for re-consideration. The claim was denied and your motion for reconsideration was regarded as frivolous because:
    a. You did not present a case strong enough to overcome the abstention doctrine and allow the courts to intevene in military affairs; and
    b. You did not meet the burden required for a TRO.

    Both of these factors were related specifically to facts in your client’s case, not Obama’s eligibility or lack thereof. Obama’s citizenship status did not force you to pursue a claim and file a motion for re-consideration despite these factors. Thus, his citizenship status cannot be said to have caused your loss of $20,000.

    Additionally, as I have noted, someone without standing who loses money on legal fees because they file a claim relating to Obama’s citizenship status has no weaker a link than you between that loss and his citizenship status.

    2. The courts decline to intervene in matters that they regard as clearly within the sole prerogative of the political branches.

    The power to certify the electoral vote result and legitimacy thereof rests with Congress. The only constitutional method for removing a President is by impeachment and this power rests with Congress. In light of this, you would have a difficult time convincing any court that the matter of a sitting President’s eligibility is justiciable.

    3. The issue of your loss of $20,000 was considered by the District Court, where judgment was entered against you. The Court of Appeals affirmed the judgment. The Supreme Court has declined to issue a stay, though I suppose you can still try petitioning for certioriari.

    In the event that Obama’s citizenship status made the sanctions unlawful, then your arguments to that effect could have been accepted by the courts in Rhodes v. MacDonald. Thus, the question has been adjudicated.

    I think we should reserve judgment on who gets to say “good try” until you present your theory in court. I only wish that you had given up in Rhodes v. MacDonald at a stage when you could have said that you had made a nice try and had not lost $20,000 of your own money.

    I do genuinely mean the last sentence of my most recent response. I am starting to feel sorry for Taitz. She is genuinely in over her head. She is like many litigants in person. She has a sense that she has been wronged and has notions of justice and the judiciary that do not correspond with anything that the courts can actually do for her. She has a naive understanding of various legal concepts that is sufficient to assert them but not to deal with argument over the nuances. If she were not a lawyer, the courts would look upon her sympathetically. However, because of her law licence, she is expected to know better even though she genuinely does not.

  62. avatar
    BatGuano July 24, 2010 at 7:41 pm #

    Jules: 1. I was sanctioned specifically because I was questioning eligibility, nothing else

    then…. why are there not 71 sanctions ? honestly.

  63. avatar
    Jules July 24, 2010 at 8:35 pm #

    BatGuano:
    then…. why are there not 71 sanctions ? honestly.

    She couldn’t possibly be sanctioned 71 times because she is not involved in most of the birther cases.

    A great many birther lawsuits have been dismissed sua sponte without the defendant even being served. All of these are cases where the court has bothered to look at the matter as soon as it is filed because it involves a pro se litigant who is filing in forma pauperis. In such cases, the courts make sure that the case might have some merit because the person filing pays no costs whatsoever and has no financial incentive to avoid filing hopeless claims.

    The problem with Taitz is that she has just enough legal knowledge to file motions and appeals to prolong the matter, but not enough to realise that there is no point. All the praise that she receives on her web site seems to support her delusion that she’s pursuing a major case with great skill.

    I could just imagine Taitz walking down the courthouse steps, declaring, la Norma Desmond:
    “My submission do have merit. It’s the courts that are frivolous.”
    “We don’t need standing. We have web site hits.”
    “You see, this is my life! It always will be! Nothing else! Just us, the motions for reconsideration, and those wonderful people out there on the Internet!… All right, your honour, I’m ready for my pro hac vice privileges.”

  64. avatar
    G July 24, 2010 at 9:23 pm #

    Jules: I do genuinely mean the last sentence of my most recent response. I am starting to feel sorry for Taitz. She is genuinely in over her head. She is like many litigants in person. She has a sense that she has been wronged and has notions of justice and the judiciary that do not correspond with anything that the courts can actually do for her. She has a naive understanding of various legal concepts that is sufficient to assert them but not to deal with argument over the nuances. If she were not a lawyer, the courts would look upon her sympathetically. However, because of her law licence, she is expected to know better even though she genuinely does not.

    I do not have any sympathy for her at all. Her attacks on others, including her repeated releasing of their personal information, SSNs and calls to her followers to hassle folks are vile and harassment. Regardless of her very questionable sanity, she is a vengeful smear merchant who lashes out viciously at anyone who disagrees with her. She is a hypocrite who knowingly uses frauds & con artists and knowingly will submit questionable evidence. She is lucky that none of her cases can make it past standing or she’d really be in trouble. She is an incompetent hack and an adulterer with poor taste and even worse decision making skills. She’s a drama queen who sees conspiracies everywhere and blames everyone else in the world for the slightest random thing, such as problems with her car and her own maleware-infested site.

    No, I have no sympathy for her at all. I think she needs serious mental help and is way overdue for being disbarred. Although she can provide a lot of entertainment, she is a vile, reprehensible, self-serving menace. She belongs locked away somewhere in a straitjacket.

  65. avatar
    Jules July 24, 2010 at 9:49 pm #

    G: No, I have no sympathy for her at all.I think she needs serious mental help and is way overdue for being disbarred.Although she can provide a lot of entertainment, she is a vile, reprehensible, self-serving menace.She belongs locked away somewhere in a straitjacket.

    I suppose I’m too much of a bleeding heart liberal. My view is that her paranoia is such that it is difficult for her to function as a normal human being. Delusions of being persecuted probably produce trauma similar to that of actual persecution. The persona that she has developed as queen of the birthers seems to have led to narcissism in addition to exacerbation of her paranoia.

    I think that disbarment would probably be appropriate. She clearly isn’t fit to practise law. She might be able to get over her issues and lead a more normal existence if she limits her pursuits to dentistry–not that I would trust my teeth or gums to her.

  66. avatar
    Sef July 24, 2010 at 10:02 pm #

    Jules:
    I suppose I’m too much of a bleeding heart liberal. My view is that her paranoia is such that it is difficult for her to function as a normal human being. Delusions of being persecuted probably produce trauma similar to that of actual persecution. The persona that she has developed as queen of the birthers seems to have led to narcissism in addition to exacerbation of her paranoia.I think that disbarment would probably be appropriate. She clearly isn’t fit to practise law. She might be able to get over her issues and lead a more normal existence if she limits her pursuits to dentistry–not that I would trust my teeth or gums to her.

    I would have similar feelings for her if her actions were limited to her immediate surroundings, but that is not the case. She & the other birthers foment sedition which can only end badly for someone. They must be shown the error of their ways.

  67. avatar
    Dave July 24, 2010 at 10:12 pm #

    I just read something on Taitz’s blog that really made me stop and think. Here’s the title:

    Do we have selective decensy only towards blacks and no decensy and no honesty towards whites?

    Yes, she has gone there.

    The gist of it:

    I can’t take the hypocrisy of our sold out and dirty mainstream media any more. I have no words to describe the debth of anger I feel.

    Now they started a tear jerking love fest about this woman Shirley Sherrod being falsely accused of being a racist.

    I dare all of these dirty media Obama lackeys to speak up the truth about me.

    I was labeled a racist and denigrated on national TV time and again because I brought legitimate issues of Social Security fraud and elections fraud by Obama.

    When I read blanket generalizations about birthers being racists, I have often raised Taitz as a prominent example who was not. Yes, an extreme ant-Muslim bigot, but that technically is not racism. But here she is now, parroting words that could've come straight from David Duke's mouth: no decency for whites, only decency for blacks.

    So perhaps I should've posted this under the thread about admitting when we're wrong — but I'm not quite ready to admit I was wrong. The racists who spread this meme, about whites being treated badly while blacks are treated well, spread it with the aim of misleading and misinforming. So it comes as no surprise if some who aren't paying much attention wind up misled and misinformed. Since this racist talking point is this week's GOP talking point, and since Taitz has never questioned a right-wing talking point, it's really not surprising to see her mindlessly repeating it.

    Of course, Taitz's narcissism is blazing through this post as well, but why go into that.

    I'm thinking Taitz should ask Alan Keyes if he would agree that this country is really much nicer to blacks than to whites. She might learn something.

  68. avatar
    Mary Brown July 24, 2010 at 10:54 pm #

    I cannot feel sympathy for someone who posts personal information including information about an elderly relative of Obama’s. Anyone could have gone to this woman’s home and confronted her. Again, no sympathy for her.

  69. avatar
    misha July 24, 2010 at 11:27 pm #

    I have no sympathy for that shonde. She is nothing more than a run of the mill refusenik, licking her wounds. Plus, she is an anti-semite. How can someone Jewish be an anti-semite? She hates Arabs.

    Read this: http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2009/10/orly-taitz-racist.html

  70. avatar
    charo July 25, 2010 at 12:27 am #

    Doc,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=852B5rcRnBs Hector Maldanado speaks again.

    I was wondering whether it is true that John Boehner submitted a birth certificate for John McCain. (It is about at 4:40 in the video) I wasn’t aware that MCCain’s certificate was submitted to the Republican party. Excuse me if you have addressed that before.

  71. avatar
    misha July 25, 2010 at 12:44 am #

    charo: I wasn’t aware that MCCain’s certificate was submitted to the Republican party. Excuse me if you have addressed that before.

    I don’t know about McSame, but here is Sarah Palin’s BC – really.

  72. avatar
    Rickey July 25, 2010 at 12:54 am #

    Northland10: Government travel records?Forgive me as I am a little confused.I do not recall the US Government keeping tabs on their citizens travels.

    I traveled to Germany, Switzerland and France in 2002, but you would never know it from my passport. Germany and Switzerland didn’t stamp it, and the border between Switzerland and France was open. The only stamp in my passport for that trip was when I went through U.S. immigration upon my return. Ditto with a trip I took to Italy in 1999. The stamping of passports by foreign countries is very haphazard. Even if the U.S. has kept a record of the times I went through U.S. immigration, for the most part there is no record of where I had been.

  73. avatar
    Rickey July 25, 2010 at 12:59 am #

    charo: Doc,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=852B5rcRnBsHector Maldanado speaks again.I was wondering whether it is true that John Boehner submitted a birth certificate for John McCain.(It is about at 4:40 in the video)I wasn’t aware that MCCain’s certificate was submitted to the Republican party.Excuse me if you have addressed that before.

    The only person who claims to have seen McCain’s birth certificate is a Washington Post reporter, and he says that he wasn’t allowed to make a copy of it. It’s certainly possible that McCain submitted a copy of his birth certificate to the Republican party, but if so it has never been made public, and to my knowledge Boehner has never claimed that he submitted it to anyone. It’s also possible that Obama submitted a copy of his birth certificate to the Democratic party.

  74. avatar
    misha July 25, 2010 at 1:05 am #

    misha: I have no sympathy for that shonde. She is nothing more than a run of the mill refusenik, licking her wounds. Plus, she is an anti-semite. How can someone Jewish be an anti-semite? She hates Arabs.Read this: http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2009/10/orly-taitz-racist.html

    And don’t forget she has ruined careers.

  75. avatar
    BatGuano July 25, 2010 at 1:18 am #

    Majority Will:

    Vikings: [singing] Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam… Lovely Spam! Wonderful Spam!

    ” strange women lying in ponds and distributing swords is no basis for government . ”

    – dennis

  76. avatar
    Dave July 25, 2010 at 6:42 am #

    charo: Hector Maldanado speaks again.I was wondering whether it is true that John Boehner submitted a birth certificate for John McCain.(It is about at 4:40 in the video)I wasn’t aware that MCCain’s certificate was submitted to the Republican party.Excuse me if you have addressed that before.

    His claim at least has the advantage of novelty. I’ve never heard that before. Perhaps someone should ask Boehner and/or McCain to verify this.

  77. avatar
    Jules July 25, 2010 at 6:59 am #

    Rickey:
    Even if the U.S. has kept a record of the times I went through U.S. immigration, for the most part there is no record of where I had been.

    You would have completed a customs declaration form on return to the US. This form included a question about the countries that you had visited. The archives of US Customs and Border Protection (or its predecessor agency) might contain this declaration, though it is also possible that these records are destroyed after a given time period.

  78. avatar
    Hormone Stallone July 25, 2010 at 8:54 am #

    Jules:
    When someone renews their US passport today, the State Department cancels the passport (by stamping “CANCELLED” across the page opposite the identity page and punching several holes through the front and back covers) and returns the old passport when it delivers the new one. For this reason, the State Department does not put cancelled passports in its archives.I don’t know what standard practice was in previous decades, but I doubt that it differed much.The State Department could take photocopies of all visa pages before issuing the new passport and returning the old one, but I doubt that it would bother. Among other things, this would increase the administrative burden of processing a passport renewal.The reason for returning the cancelled passport is that there may be a visa in the old passport that remains valid and capable of being used by presenting both the old and new passports.

    A person who renounces their US Citizenship is asked to return their US passport to US Consulate before a Certificate of Loss of Nationality is issued.

    Along with the Statement of Understanding and Oath of Renouncement, a return of a US Passport is evidence of intent to renounce. Furthermore, notes and commentary by
    the FSO interviewing the renuncient are kept on file.

    It is unlikely we will see Stanley Ann’s passport record.

  79. avatar
    Hormone Stallone July 25, 2010 at 9:02 am #

    charo: Doc,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=852B5rcRnBs Hector Maldanado speaks again.I was wondering whether it is true that John Boehner submitted a birth certificate for John McCain.(It is about at 4:40 in the video)I wasn’t aware that MCCain’s certificate was submitted to the Republican party.Excuse me if you have addressed that before.

    McCain uses a Certificate of Citizenship issued by the US State Department to prove US citizenship. A foreign issued BC only proves the person was born in a foreign country and says nothing about US Citizenship.

    Not all US Citizens have a BC. Immigrants use a Certificate of Naturalization issued by the US State Department to prove citizenship.

  80. avatar
    Jules July 25, 2010 at 9:11 am #

    Hormone Stallone:
    A person who renounces their US Citizenship is asked to return their US passport to US Consulate before a Certificate of Loss of Nationality is issued.Along with the Statement of Understanding and Oath of Renouncement, a return of a US Passport is evidence of intent to renounce. Furthermore, notes and commentary by the FSO interviewing the renuncient are kept on file.It is unlikely we will see Stanley Ann’s passport record.

    Those who renounce their US citizenship apparently have their cancelled pasports returned to them when a Certificate of Loss of Nationality is issued.

    There is no reason to believe that Mrs Obama ever relinquished her US citizenship. Even if she had, her son would have been entitled to keep his citizenship.

  81. avatar
    Jules July 25, 2010 at 9:13 am #

    I have tried posting a response, only to find that it does not post. I do not even get a notice that it is awaiting moderation. Is there something wrong with Dr C’s server?

  82. avatar
    Jules July 25, 2010 at 9:15 am #

    Ah, my last comment went through. I don’t know why the earlier comment did not go through despite two attempts. Maybe the blockquote or links were a problem.

    I merely wished to make two points:
    1. A renunciant’s cancelled passport is return when the CLN is issued.
    2. There is no reason to believe that Mrs Obama ever relinquished her US citizenship. Even if she did, there would be no reason to believe that her son had ever relinquished his.

  83. avatar
    Majority Will July 25, 2010 at 9:35 am #

    Jules: Ah, my last comment went through. I don’t know why the earlier comment did not go through despite two attempts. Maybe the blockquote or links were a problem.I merely wished to make two points:
    1. A renunciant’s cancelled passport is return when the CLN is issued.
    2. There is no reason to believe that Mrs Obama ever relinquished her US citizenship. Even if she did, there would be no reason to believe that her son had ever relinquished his.

    3. Ergo . . . as usual Sven’s comments are baseless and pointless which is consistent with offer chronic sufferers of birtheritis. Nervous spasms, uncontrollable drooling and vocal outbursts of non-sequiturs are also common.

  84. avatar
    Jules July 25, 2010 at 9:49 am #

    Obama was aged ten when he moved back to Hawaii. The State Department’s Foreign Affairs Manual indicates:

    Parents or guardians cannot renounce or relinquish the U.S. citizenship of a child who acquired U.S. citizenship at birth.

    Whenever you receive a request to renounce from a minor you immediately must contact CA/OCS/ACS. CA/OCS/ACS will not approve a Certificate of Loss of U.S. Nationality (CLN) for a minor without the concurrence of CA/OCS/PRI, and appropriate consultation with L/CA…

    Minors who seek to renounce citizenship often do so at the behest of or under pressure from one or more parent. If such pressure is so overwhelming as to negate the free will of the minor, it cannot be said that the statutory act of expatriation was committed voluntarily. The younger the minor is at the time of renunciation, the more influence the parent is assumed to have. Even in the absence of any evidence of parental inducements or pressure, you and CA must make a judgment whether the individual minor manifested the requisite maturity to appreciate the irrevocable nature of expatriation. Absent that maturity, it cannot be said that the individual acted voluntarily. Moreover, it must be determined if the minor lacked intent, because he or she did fully understand what he or she was doing. Children under 16 are presumed not to have the requisite maturity and knowing intent…

  85. avatar
    Hormone Stallone July 25, 2010 at 10:49 am #

    Jules: Obama was aged ten when he moved back to Hawaii. The State Department’s Foreign Affairs Manual indicates:

    “CA/OCS/ACS will not approve a Certificate of Loss of U.S. Nationality (CLN) for a minor without the concurrence of CA/OCS/PRI, and appropriate consultation with L/CA”

    A paper trail as thick as a book we can’t see because there is nothing there … hmmmmm.

  86. avatar
    Jules July 25, 2010 at 11:15 am #

    Hormone Stallone:
    “CA/OCS/ACS will not approve a Certificate of Loss of U.S. Nationality (CLN) for a minor without the concurrence of CA/OCS/PRI, and appropriate consultation with L/CA”A paper trail as thick as a book we can’t see because there is nothing there … hmmmmm.

    The thick paper trail to which you refer only results in cases where there is an attempt by a minor to renounce his citizenship. You need some basis for believing that there was such an attempt before you can assume that a paper trail of this sort exists.

    Even if Mrs Obama had relinquished her citizenship at some point, then it would have been virtually impossible for her to get her son to relinquish his citizenship. Her attempts in relation to her son would be in her son’s file. In a hypothetical situation in which she tried to have her son’s citizenship relinquished, she would have almost certainly been told to have her son come back when he was old enough to know what he was doing and make his own decisions. By the time he was old enough, he had moved back to the USA.

  87. avatar
    BatGuano July 25, 2010 at 11:58 am #

    A paper trail as thick as a book we can’t see because there is nothing there … hmmmmm.

    nor have we seen the multitude of sven’s kgb paper work from the magical talking unicorn……. hmmmmmm.

  88. avatar
    Majority Will July 25, 2010 at 12:47 pm #

    BatGuano:
    nor have we seen the multitude of sven’s kgb paper work from the magical talking unicorn……. hmmmmmm.

    It’s pointless FUD and really pathetic. Many birthers cling to made up b.s. because it’s all they’ve got. Desperate clods.

  89. avatar
    Hormone Stallone July 25, 2010 at 2:54 pm #

    Jules:
    The thick paper trail to which you refer only results in cases where there is an attempt by a minor to renounce his citizenship. You need some basis for believing that there was such an attempt before you can assume that a paper trail of this sort exists.Even if Mrs Obama had relinquished her citizenship at some point, then it would have been virtually impossible for her to get her son to relinquish his citizenship. Her attempts in relation to her son would be in her son’s file. In a hypothetical situation in which she tried to have her son’s citizenship relinquished, she would have almost certainly been told to have her son come back when he was old enough to know what he was doing and make his own decisions. By the time he was old enough, he had moved back to the USA.

    The State Dept would not issue a CLN to a custodial parent without issuing a CLN to the child in custody where the host country is not a party to the UN Adoption Treaty is because the child is subject to deportation. The US could suffer an international embarrassment if a third world dictator deported a US citizen child and prevented the custodial parent from exiting the country.

    The issuance of a CLN is discretionary. We know Stanley Ann was issued a CLN because she worked as a contractor for USAID. If she were a US citizen, then USAID would have hired her as an employee and I wouldn’t have to endure a bunch of USAID sellouts making disparaging comments on the net and trying to muddy the waters.

    Being married to an Indonesian Army Officer (oops, I mean an Indonesian Army “geologist”), Stanley Ann had access to valuable information. If Stanley Ann were a US Citizen and employee of USAID, she would have been allowed to retire with full pension and medical benefits after she was diagnosed with serious medical issues. She wouldn’t have to spend her final days negotiating with insurance companies. The commies at USAID have excellent health insurance.

  90. avatar
    nc1 July 25, 2010 at 3:11 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The information I have is that entry and exit records do not exist that far back (1961). My FOIA is simply for a record of when passports were issued.

    That makes the 18 months delay even more suspicious – how difficult is it to obtain this information?

    I don’t see any logical reason for such a behavior. It is a shame that people in government are getting paid while not doing their job.

  91. avatar
    nc1 July 25, 2010 at 3:53 pm #

    dunstvangeet: The time period. The birth was registered on August 8, 1961, and Obama was born on (according to every birth certificate that I’ve seen) August 4, 1961. That is a 4-day trip.The trip would have taken 10,728 miles (approx). that is a straight shot, and probably would have been more. If you take it over the 4 days, that is 2,682 miles a day (approx), and 111 miles an hour. The trip by boat would take most likely over a week.To give you an approximation, the fastest Ocean Liners travel at 40 knots, or approximately 40 miles per hour. For what you state to be possible, the ship would have to go about 3 times as fast as the fastest Ocean Liners go.

    Think about grandma registering birth. Now we can assume a leisurely pace of 20 knots and make the trip in 20 days.

    This theory would be crushed if Obama could produce a long form birth certificate indicating Kapiolani as his birthplace. The reluctance to relese such a trivial document (for a US born person) gives more credibility to alternative scenarios (as the one I described). The alternative scenario fits the behavior of: Obama campaign, Hawaii DoH, Tim Adams, James Orengo (minister in Kenyan government), Peter Ogego (Kenyan ambassador in USA),…

  92. avatar
    Jules July 25, 2010 at 4:16 pm #

    Hormone Stallone:
    The State Dept would not issue a CLN to a custodial parent without issuing a CLN to the child in custody where the host country is not a party to the UN Adoption Treaty is because the child is subject to deportation.

    What is your basis for stating that there is such a policy or practice? The State Department’s Foreign Affairs Manual clearly indicates that the tests required for loss of nationality, and therefore the issuance of a CLN, will not be met where there is a young child who is too young to make up their own mind and fully appreciate what they are doing.

    Additionally, in what circumstances would issuance of a CLN prevent deportation? If a US citizen is entitled to a visa to reside in the host country, a CLN would be irrelevant. If the US citizen is in the country illegally, loss of US nationality would not eliminate the possibility of deportation in a non-citizen capacity.

    The US could suffer an international embarrassment if a third world dictator deported a US citizen childand prevented the custodial parent from exiting the country.

    A third world dictator who had the power to decide who is and is not a citizen could force his country’s citizenship on anyone he wanted and strip anyone of citizenship of his country. As, I have noted before, loss of US nationality does not prevent deportation in a non-citizen capacity. For this reason, issuing a CLN would not prevent the scenario that you envision.

    The issuance of a CLN is discretionary.

    Actually, it is not legal to issue one unless the statutory requirements for loss of US nationality are met.

    We know Stanley Ann was issued a CLN because she worked as a contractor for USAID. If she were a US citizen, then USAID would have hired her as an employee and I wouldn’t have to endure a bunch of USAID sellouts making disparaging comments on the net and trying to muddy the waters.

    Being a USAID employee requires being a US citizen but either a US citizen or a foreign national may be a contractor, correct? Therefore, being a USAID employee indicates being a US citizen, whereas being a USAID contractor does not indicate nationality.

    You presuppose that someone would only become a contractor for USAID if they wished to be an employee but happened to be ineligible based on nationality. However, there are various people who work as contractors rather than employees for a variety of reasons. If you looked up the organisations for which she did consulting work, you find that she actually worked with multiple organisations, including the World Bank and Ford Foundation. This suggests that she liked the freedom to work for multiple organisations. It also suggests that you are wrong in assuming that someone would only work as a consultant if they were ineligible due to nationality; why did she not get a job as a permanent employee with the Ford Foundation or World Bank, organisations that can hire people of any nationality?

    Being married to an Indonesian Army Officer (oops, I mean an Indonesian Army “geologist”), Stanley Ann had access to valuable information.

    On what basis do you claim that Lolo Soetoro was an Indonesian Army Officer?

    If Stanley Ann were a US Citizen and employee of USAID, she would have been allowed to retire with full pension and medical benefits after she was diagnosed with serious medical issues. She wouldn’t have to spend her final days negotiating with insurance companies. The commies at USAID have excellent health insurance.

    It’s a shame that she did not envision in the course of her career that she would get ovarian cancer in her fifties. Had she known, she probably would have planned to get a permanent position with great health benefits before getting her cancer diagnosis.

    It’s a shame that every uninsured person in the US is not a US citizen, as we know that anyone without great health benefits must simply be a foreigner who is ineligible for federal employment.

  93. avatar
    nc1 July 25, 2010 at 4:20 pm #

    Seven Obama’s lies in under 2 minutes:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCeSvdBvBfE&feature=related

  94. avatar
    Jules July 25, 2010 at 4:22 pm #

    nc1:
    Think about grandma registering birth.Now we can assume a leisurely pace of 20 knots and make the trip in 20 days.
    This theory would be crushed if Obama could produce a long form birth certificate indicating Kapiolani as his birthplace. The reluctance to relese such a trivial document (for a US born person) gives more credibility to alternative scenarios (as the one I described).The alternative scenario fits the behavior of: Obama campaign, Hawaii DoH, Tim Adams, James Orengo (minister in Kenyan government), Peter Ogego (Kenyan ambassador in USA),…

    I refer you to my comment of 24 July 2010 at 8:26 am.

    Also, do you have an example of the Hawaii Department of Health issuing birth certificates today in the form of certified photocopies? Can you point to a form in use today to order one?

  95. avatar
    BatGuano July 25, 2010 at 4:32 pm #

    nc1:
    Think about grandma registering birth.

    i’m thinking about it.

    at 20 knots ( 23mph ) it would take over 27 days ( including a one day lay-over per port ) following passenger ship routes between kenya and hawaii. so you contend that the state of hawaii registered a birth of a child on august 8, 1961 that couldn’t have been physically there ( nor his parents ) till august 31, 1961 ???

  96. avatar
    nc1 July 25, 2010 at 4:56 pm #

    Jules: I refer you to my comment of 24 July 2010 at 8:26 am.Also, do you have an example of the Hawaii Department of Health issuing birth certificates today in the form of certified photocopies? Can you point to a form in use today to order one?

    How do you know what rules were in effect for registering unattended birth in 1961 to categorically claim that grandmother could not have done it?

    If Obama can sign orders to send 30,000 additional troops to war, he can simply ask the DoH and they will release the original documnet in their archive. If the official story were true, the document should look like Nordyke birth certificates.

    I think that Obama cannot even obtain the COLB from DoH that would be similar to what was posted on the web. I suspect that the word “Amended” would be printed on it.

  97. avatar
    BatGuano July 25, 2010 at 5:00 pm #

    nc1:
    Think about grandma registering birth.

    i’m still thinking about it.

    since hawaii’s laws in this matter aren’t much different from any other state in the US i should be able to say that my brother and his girlfriend had a baby last saturday and get a birth certificate by this tuesday…….. correct ?

  98. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 25, 2010 at 5:07 pm #

    nc1: How do you know what rules were in effect for registering unattended birth in 1961 to categorically claim that grandmother could not have done it?

    I know because I have a copy of the law (from 1959), which has been posted here several times. The law requires the parents to file the certificate in the case of an unattended birth. The only situation where the grandmother could file was if the parents were “unable” to file. This is what we call in the trade a “fact” as distinct from speculation or rumor.

  99. avatar
    nc1 July 25, 2010 at 5:09 pm #

    BatGuano: i’m thinking about it.at 20 knots ( 23mph ) it would take over 27 days ( including a one day lay-over per port ) following passenger ship routes between kenya and hawaii. so you contend that the state of hawaii registered a birth of a child on august 8, 1961 that couldn’t have been physically there ( nor his parents ) till august 31, 1961 ???

    What makes you think that a baby had to be presented to the DoH clerk before a birth could be registered? Hawaii even had a law on books that allowed late birth registration (up to a year after the actual birth).

    Unless we see the original birth certificate confirming the official birth story, the unattended birth registered by a grandmother cannot be excluded as a possible scenario.

  100. avatar
    nc1 July 25, 2010 at 5:19 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I know because I have a copy of the law (from 1959), which has been posted here several times. The law requires the parents to file the certificate in the case of an unattended birth. The only situation where the grandmother could file was if the parents were “unable” to file. This is what we call in the trade a “fact” as distinct from speculation or rumor.

    You just confirmed that there was a provision in the law allowing a grandmother to file the birth registration.

    My speculation is based on the observation of Obama’s behavior: There would be no need to hide the original birth certificate if the official story were true. In that case we would not have heard from Kenyan government officials about Obama being born in Kenya.

  101. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 25, 2010 at 5:20 pm #

    nc1: That makes the 18 months delay even more suspicious – how difficult is it to obtain this information?

    It is a vexing problem, and normally, such a passport information request would be resolved more quickly. One may call the delay suspicious, but one can only guess at the real reason. My personal pet theory is that results are entangled with the Allen and Strunk lawsuits.

  102. avatar
    Joey July 25, 2010 at 5:29 pm #

    Obama’s maternal grandmother could not have registered Barack Obama’s birth. The birth was registered at the hospital (Kapi’olani Medical Center according to the Governor of Hawaii Linda Lingle). The reason that the birth was registered with the state on August 8th is because Obama was born at 7:24 pm on August 4th which was a Friday Night. All births from Friday, Saturday and Sunday were sent to the “Health Bureau” (as it was called in 1961) and the bureaucrats didn’t get to the baby Obama Certification until Tuesday, August 8th.
    The Honolulu Sunday Advertiser newspaper for Sunday, August 13, 1961 lists a son born on August 4th to Mr.and Mrs. Barack Obama. That section of the Sunday Advertiser is the “Health Bureau Statistics” section.
    Since birth data goes from the hospital to the Health Bureau, it is highly unlikely that a birth was registered without an actual infant being in the hospital.
    When Governor Lingle mentioned Kapiolani as the birth hospital, she misspoke. When she sent the Director of Health and the Registrar of Records (Dr. Fukino and Dr. Onaka) to check on the Obama birth record and report back, Dr.Fukino did not name the hospital in her press release but it is obvious that Dr. Fukino DID mention Kapiolani in her report back to the Governor and a year and a half later, that information was mentioned by Governor Lingle in a radio interview.

  103. avatar
    Expelliarmus July 25, 2010 at 5:31 pm #

    nc1: This theory would be crushed if Obama could produce a long form birth certificate indicating Kapiolani as his birthplace.

    How so? He’s already produced the official state certification showing birth in Honolulu, which obviously isn’t in Kenya. If you don’t believe “Honolulu” — why would you believe “Kapiolani”?

    You seem to take refuge in this grandma-registration theory, but no relative could have ever registered a birth without an actual baby to present for examination. The procedure followed for out-of-hospital births is that a doctor examines the newborn, and the parents (or other relatives when parents are unavailable) provides the data. The medical exam from the doctor would provide documentation of the infant’s age.

  104. avatar
    Jules July 25, 2010 at 5:32 pm #

    nc1:
    How do you know what rules were in effect for registering unattended birth in 1961 to categorically claim that grandmother could not have done it?If Obama can sign orders to send 30,000 additional troops to war, he can simply ask the DoH and they will release the original documnet in their archive. If the official story were true, the document should look like Nordyke birth certificates.I think that Obama cannot even obtain the COLB from DoH that would be similar to what was posted on the web. I suspect that the word “Amended” would be printed on it.

    Yes, I was looking at the version of HRS §338-6 in force today. Dr C indicates that the version in force in 1961 would have required the registrar to investigate and complete the forms themselves when a birth was unattended and no parent was available. I will let Dr C explain his source of the old statute. Needless to say, a registrar would be rather unlikely to accept and enter facts of birth for a child that cannot be shown to exist. If you can produce evidence that Hawaiian registrars were happy to register the births of apparently fictitious people, then I’d like to see it.

    Obama can sign executive orders relating the troop movements because he is head of the executive branch of the federal government. Registration of births that occur in the US, and issuance of certifications of those records, is the job of the state governments.

    I believe that the Nordyke twins’ certificates were produced from records kept on microfilm. Are you stating that the Hawaii Department of Health still issues records from microfilm? As I understand it they kept all paper records when they put birth records into a database, but I haven’t heard anything about whether they have retained the microfilm that they previously used to produce routine birth certificates in the 1960s. If the Hawaii Department of Health produced a certified photocopy today from a photocopier, then the document would look a bit different.

    My understanding is that all documents issued today in response to applications made on this form are computer generated “short forms”. (Such “short forms” are, under HRS §338-13(c), just as valid as a certified photocopy would be.) Thus, any extraordinary accommodation for Obama would have to be outside all procedures in place today.

    The certificate that was inspected by Factcheck would have been labelled as altered if Obama’s birth record had been amended (HRS §338-16(a)).

  105. avatar
    Majority Will July 25, 2010 at 5:32 pm #

    nc1: Seven Obama’s lies in under 2 minutes:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCeSvdBvBfE&feature=related

    Hundred’s of examples of nc’s “misstatements” about the President with the birther drivel debunked and shredded for illogic and inanity over many, many months:

    http://washingtonindependent.com

    Search under “birther.”

    Many of them are identical to the baseless birther conspiracy drivel repeated ad nauseam on this site.

  106. avatar
    Jules July 25, 2010 at 5:34 pm #

    I apologise for an error in my last comment. In the penultimate paragraph, I meant to link to this form.

  107. avatar
    BatGuano July 25, 2010 at 5:34 pm #

    nc1:
    What makes you think that a baby had to be presented to the DoH clerk before a birth could be registered?Hawaii even had a law on books that allowed late birth registration (up to a year after the actual birth).

    yep. as far as i know same/similar as all the other states.

    the birth registration wasn’t late though. i can’t imagine ANY state registering a child that doesn’t exist ( nor the parents ).

  108. avatar
    Joey July 25, 2010 at 5:38 pm #

    nc1: You just confirmed that there was a provision in the law allowing a grandmother to file the birth registration. My speculation is based on the observation of Obama’s behavior: There would be no need to hide the original birth certificate if the official story were true. In that case we would not have heard from Kenyan government officials about Obama being born in Kenya.

    Obama’s original, long form, vault copy birth certificate can be released without Obama’s permission under Hawaii statutes by subpoena The exact wording of the statute is released to: “a person whose right to inspect or obtain a certified copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction.”(HRS 338-18(b)(9)
    After his experience with the reaction to his release of a photoshopped copy of his COLB, it is probably best that Obama himself have nothing to do with the release of any birth document.
    IT CAN BE SUBPOENAED.

  109. avatar
    Jules July 25, 2010 at 5:46 pm #

    HRS §338-13(c) provides that, “Copies may be made by photography, dry copy reproduction, typing, computer printout or other process approved by the director of health.”

    Thus, any such technology may be used to produce a birth certificate, provided that it complies with the department’s regulations.

    Do the regulations currently state that birth certificates must be issued in the form of a computer printout from the department’s database? Do they prevent photocopies of the original from being issued in the event that an employee from the department wanted to indulge a request from a person for a certified photocopy of their original record?

    I suppose this is a question that could only be answered by someone with pretty specific knowledge about Hawaii regulations.

  110. avatar
    Majority Will July 25, 2010 at 5:48 pm #

    Joey:
    Obama’s original, long form, vault copy birth certificate can be releasedwithout Obama’s permission under Hawaii statutes by subpoena The exact wording of the statute is released to: “a person whose right to inspect or obtain a certified copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction.”(HRS 338-18(b)(9)
    After his experience with the reaction to his release of a photoshopped copy of his COLB, it is probably best that Obama himself have nothing to do with the release of any birth document.
    IT CAN BE SUBPOENAED.

    You clearly haven’t been paying attention.

    How incredibly sad. Hit and run troll?

  111. avatar
    BatGuano July 25, 2010 at 5:49 pm #

    Joey:
    … his release of a photoshopped copy of his COLB,….

    just curious, joey. do you regularly work with Adobe PhotoShop ???

  112. avatar
    jamese777 July 25, 2010 at 5:51 pm #

    BatGuano: yep. as far as i know same/similar as all the other states. the birth registration wasn’t late though. i can’t imagine ANY state registering a child that doesn’t exist ( nor the parents ).

    The Certification of Live Birth lists a birth time: 7:24 pm, a birth date: August 4, 1961, and a birth place: City of Honolulu, County of Honolulu, Island of Oahu, State of Hawaii.
    There is no information on a long form that is additionally constitutionally relevant to being an Article 2 Section 1 Natural Born Citizen. The Constitution does not require birth in a hospital or delivery by a physician in order to qualify.
    While “birthers” may be curious as to what is on Obama’s original birth certificate, curiosity in order to try to make political hay out of non-relevant details is not going to fly in any court of law.
    As a Reagan-appointed, conservative federal judge has said: “This is one of several such suits filed by Ms. Taitz in her quixotic attempt to prove that President Obama is not a natural born citizen as required by Constitution. See U.S. CONST. art. II, § 1. This Court is not willing to go tilting at windmills with her. ” –US Chief Federal District Court Judge for the District of Columbia Royce C. Lamberth

  113. avatar
    jamese777 July 25, 2010 at 5:52 pm #

    BatGuano: just curious, joey. do you regularly work with Adobe PhotoShop ???

    Not at all.

  114. avatar
    jamese777 July 25, 2010 at 5:53 pm #

    I should have said “its fairly obvious that the answer to that question is “not at all.”

  115. avatar
    Jules July 25, 2010 at 5:53 pm #

    BatGuano:
    yep. as far as i know same/similar as all the other states.
    the birth registration wasn’t late though. i can’t imagine ANY state registering a child that doesn’t exist ( nor the parents ).

    The birthers seem to think that Hawaii has registrars happy to give birth certificates to people who may or may not exist. They also think that Obama can and should issue executive orders mandating changes to the format of their birth certificates.

    So much for conservatives thinking that it’s best to leave things to the states.

  116. avatar
    Majority Will July 25, 2010 at 5:55 pm #

    Why are there so many clueless birthers who act like he/she suddenly has tremendous powers over logic, U.S. law and history and must prove to the world that his/her delusions trump reality?

    [end rhetorical question]

    They keeping crawling out from under a rock with bursts of dogmatic lunacy.

    I mostly blame WND, Newsbusters, Stormfront and the other fright wing, libel machines.

    And of course, Karl Rove.

  117. avatar
    Majority Will July 25, 2010 at 6:01 pm #

    BatGuano:
    just curious, joey. do you regularly work with Adobe PhotoShop ???

    I have used (and taught) Adobe Photoshop since the early 90s. And I know it’s not a verb but a registered trademark.

    http://www.adobe.com/misc/trade.html#section-4

  118. avatar
    Joey July 25, 2010 at 6:04 pm #

    Majority Will: You clearly haven’t been paying attention.How incredibly sad. Hit and run troll?

    What are you talking about? I’ve been paying very close attention and I am vehemently ANTI-BIRTHER
    The fact that no one in the birther cabal has even attempted a subpoena of Obama’s vault copy certificate is proof (to me) of the silliness of their arguments.
    They don’t want to really resolve the issue, they just want to posture and whine.

  119. avatar
    Sef July 25, 2010 at 6:15 pm #

    Joey: order of a court of competent jurisdiction

    Joey, just how would you go about creating an “order of a court of competent jurisdiction”? I’m sure the birther community is on tender hooks waiting for this answer.

  120. avatar
    Joey July 25, 2010 at 6:28 pm #

    The Republican Attorney

    Sef: Joey, just how would you go about creating an “order of a court of competent jurisdiction”? I’m sure the birther community is on tender hooks waiting for this answer.

    A wonderful question!
    Any prosecuting attorney in the entire United States can open a Grand Jury investigation of Obama for forgery or fraud in connection with his birth documents. That investigation does not have to charge Obama with any crime, Grand Juries can investigate ANYTHING that the prosecutor damn well pleases (District Attorneys, State Attorney Generals, and US Attorneys/the Office of the Attorney General).Once a grand jury investigation in convened, the prosecutor can go to his/her favorite judge and seek a subpoena for Obama’s birth records. If the state of Hawaii determines that the subpoena is valid and was issued by a legitimate judge, they release the document.
    The perfect person to have undertaken this would have been Mark L. Bennett, the Republican Attorney General of Hawaii.
    I would remind the birther community that the resignation of Richard M.Nixon and the impeachment of William Jefferson Clinton both originated with Grand Jury investigations into Watergate and Whitewater.

  121. avatar
    Joey July 25, 2010 at 6:44 pm #

    BatGuano: just curious, joey. do you regularly work with Adobe PhotoShop ???

    No I don’t, never used it but I realize what you’re getting at.
    “Google the term “photoshopped” and take a gander at the 4,640,000 results.

  122. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 25, 2010 at 7:12 pm #

    Joey: Any prosecuting attorney in the entire United States can open a Grand Jury investigation of Obama for forgery or fraud in connection with his birth documents.

    So why do you think that hasn’t happened? Or do you think it has?

  123. avatar
    BatGuano July 25, 2010 at 7:16 pm #

    Joey:
    NoI don’t, never used it but I realize what you’re getting at.
    “Google the term “photoshopped” and take a gander at the 4,640,000 results.

    or google the term ” photographed ” and you’ll get a gander at over 22 million results.

    what’s the point you’re trying to make ?

  124. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 25, 2010 at 7:18 pm #

    Jules: Do the regulations currently state that birth certificates must be issued in the form of a computer printout from the department’s database? Do they prevent photocopies of the original from being issued in the event that an employee from the department wanted to indulge a request from a person for a certified photocopy of their original record?

    It’s important to maintain a distinction between statute and regulation. The statute (that you cite) basically gives the director of health say as to what forms are issued and what forms are not.

  125. avatar
    Jules July 25, 2010 at 7:24 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    It’s important to maintain a distinction between statute and regulation. The statute (that you cite) basically gives the director of health say as to what forms are issued and what forms are not.

    Yes, I agree. The director has to issue regulations indicating what forms can and cannot be used. My question is whether the existing regulations are so specific as to prevent any employee who receives a letter from Obama (or anyone else born in the state) today requesting a certified photocopy from issuing one without a specific authorisation from Dr Fukimo.

  126. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 25, 2010 at 7:30 pm #

    BatGuano: the birth registration wasn’t late though. i can’t imagine ANY state registering a child that doesn’t exist ( nor the parents ).

    There is such a thing as fraud. http://www.justice.gov/usao/nj/press/files/ande1028_r.htm

    A parent could claim that the other parent took the child and fled the jurisdiction. However, no parent and no child begs the case of who and why such a registration was happening. Such things would raise red flags and the registrar would reasonably ask for some documentation.

  127. avatar
    Jules July 25, 2010 at 7:40 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    There is such a thing as fraud. http://www.justice.gov/usao/nj/press/files/ande1028_r.htmA parent could claim that the other parent took the child and fled the jurisdiction. However, no parent and no child begs the case of who and why such a registration was happening. Such things would raise red flags and the registrar would reasonably ask for some documentation.

    Of course, in a birther’s mind, anything that is remotely possible must be presumed the case until Obama proves otherwise.

    In all seriousness, I take it that a registration as unusual as the scenario that birthers imagine would involve investigation that would continue for more than four days after the alleged birth. You indicated previously that the registrar would be the one filling in the form where no parent was available, so I take it that a registrar in such a scenario would take many days to investigate and only then file a birth report.

    Then again, Hawaii was a new state. So everyone must have been a crook.

  128. avatar
    BatGuano July 25, 2010 at 7:44 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    There is such a thing as fraud.

    yep. thanks for bringing it up doc.

    so….. you want a “manchurian candidate” to progress your muslim marxist socialistic agenda to destroy the united states in 50 years but are having trouble finding the right someone in the continental US. what to do, what to do.

  129. avatar
    Majority Will July 25, 2010 at 7:55 pm #

    Joey:
    NoI don’t, never used it but I realize what you’re getting at.
    “Google the term “photoshopped” and take a gander at the 4,640,000 results.

    Ignorance is not a valid excuse.

  130. avatar
    Majority Will July 25, 2010 at 7:57 pm #

    Joey:
    What are you talking about? I’ve been paying very close attention and I am vehemently ANTI-BIRTHER
    The fact that no one in the birther cabal has even attempted a subpoena of Obama’s vault copy certificate is proof (to me) of the silliness of their arguments.
    They don’t want to really resolve the issue, they just want to posture and whine.

    O.K., then I apologize. Your tactic and approach was a little weird.

  131. avatar
    Majority Will July 25, 2010 at 8:05 pm #

    Joey:
    Obama’s original, long form, vault copy birth certificate can be releasedwithout Obama’s permission under Hawaii statutes by subpoena The exact wording of the statute is released to: “a person whose right to inspect or obtain a certified copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction.”(HRS 338-18(b)(9)
    After his experience with the reaction to his release of a photoshopped copy of his COLB, it is probably best that Obama himself have nothing to do with the release of any birth document.
    IT CAN BE SUBPOENAED.

    And Hawaii has stated recently that there is no such thing as a long form anymore.
    Everything on the COLB, the certified copy and prima facie evidence valid in any court, is also the exact same information in vital records.

    What do you mean by photoshopped (sic) copy of his COLB? I’ve never seen any valid proof of that.

  132. avatar
    dunstvangeet July 25, 2010 at 8:28 pm #

    nc1:
    Think about grandma registering birth.Now we can assume a leisurely pace of 20 knots and make the trip in 20 days.
    This theory would be crushed if Obama could produce a long form birth certificate indicating Kapiolani as his birthplace. The reluctance to relese such a trivial document (for a US born person) gives more credibility to alternative scenarios (as the one I described).The alternative scenario fits the behavior of: Obama campaign, Hawaii DoH, Tim Adams, James Orengo (minister in Kenyan government), Peter Ogego (Kenyan ambassador in USA),…

    The grandmother would not have the right to do that, nc1. Only the Parent would be able to, unless the Parent is not phyically able to. Travelling is not reason enough for being physically unable to register the birth, and the rules say that the birth only has to be registered usually within 30 days.

    So, why would Obama’s birth be registered within 4 days by the grandmother when the mother herself could still legally register the birth later?

    Your guano doesn’t fly, nc1.

  133. avatar
    Jules July 25, 2010 at 8:36 pm #

    My understanding is that the Hudson County fraud involved placement of forged long-form certificates in the county’s records for those paying a cash bribe. These certificates made it appear as though those paying the bribes had births registered many years previously.

    For this reason, demanding a long form is not a protection against fraud where the falsification of records is done inside the vital records office. As birthers routinely allege that Dr Fukimo et al. are committing a massive fraud, it is abundantly clear that any long form would be assumed to be a fraud.

    Conspiracy theorists are never content to let matters rest when evidence shows their hypotheses wrong. They instead insist that all sources of that evidence are part of the conspiracy. I would expect Taitz to ultimate insist upon personal inspection of the archives of the Hawaii Department of Health just as she has demanded access to the Supreme Court’s records of the handling of her stay application.

  134. avatar
    nc1 July 25, 2010 at 9:14 pm #

    Joey: Obama’s maternal grandmother could not have registered Barack Obama’s birth. The birth was registered at the hospital (Kapi’olani Medical Center according to the Governor of Hawaii Linda Lingle). The reason that the birth was registered with the state on August 8th is because Obama was born at 7:24 pm on August 4th which was a Friday Night. All births from Friday, Saturday and Sunday were sent to the “Health Bureau” (as it was called in 1961) and the bureaucrats didn’t get to the baby Obama Certification until Tuesday, August 8th.The Honolulu Sunday Advertiser newspaper for Sunday, August 13, 1961 lists a son born on August 4th to Mr.and Mrs. Barack Obama. That section of the Sunday Advertiser is the “Health Bureau Statistics” section.Since birth data goes from the hospital to the Health Bureau, it is highly unlikely that a birth was registered without an actual infant being in the hospital.When Governor Lingle mentioned Kapiolani as the birth hospital, she misspoke. When she sent the Director of Health and the Registrar of Records (Dr. Fukino and Dr. Onaka) to check on the Obama birth record and report back, Dr.Fukino did not name the hospital in her press release but it is obvious that Dr. Fukino DID mention Kapiolani in her report back to the Governor and a year and a half later, that information was mentioned by Governor Lingle in a radio interview.

    Gov. Lingle told a lie in a radio interview when she said that they issued a press-release about Obama being born in the Kapiolani Hospital. There is no such press-release.

    Your timeline does not make sense. Nordyke twins were born day later than Obama. If your scenario were true their birth certificates would have been processed on the same day as Obama’s. We know that this is not the case. Their certificates were signed by the attending physician on August 11 and processed by the DoH on the same day. Since Obama’s birth certificate has higher registartion number than those for Nordyke twins, you need to come up with better theory on why Obama’s certificate bears date August 8 yet the certificate number corresponds to August 11 (at best).
    I could use this timeline to speculate that Obama was not born in the Kapiolani because the DoH took three days to process his registration – this could indicate a different process reserved for unattended birth registrations.

    Publicly available information does not provide a definitive answer to the question whether Obama was born in the Kapiolani hospital or not.

  135. avatar
    Jules July 25, 2010 at 9:33 pm #

    The recent news about Puerto Rico’s new birth certificate law are quite interesting.

    Puerto Rico’s law is a great example of the fact that, as mentioned in a report to which Dr C previouslu linked, most birth certificate fraud does not involve creating a false birth record. Rather, most fraud involves use of real birth certificates by fraudsters. The certificate itself or the information on it can be used to act in the name of that person.

    The Puerto Rican problem largely involved some individuals buying the certificates of others so that they could claim that they were that named person who was born on a given date in Puerto Rico with US citizenship. One major part of the problem was that birth certificates were presented too freely in Puerto Rico and were, therefore, easy to intercept. People in possession of another person’s birth certificate were able to steal the person’s identity (or in the case of Luis Rosario’s certificate, buy the identity).

    Taitz seemed to want to take her hypothesis down the identity theft track when she started alleging use of others’ Social Security numbers. However, the supposedly fraudulent use of an SSN is one issued to a Barack Hussein Obama who is not listed as dead despite being supposedly 120 years old. (The age appears to be an error made in a given computer entry made for Obama at some point in his life, as other entries show the person in question to have been born in August 1961.)

    The problem for the birther movement in trying to steer their hypothesis toward identity theft is that the two approaches are mutually exclusive. One approach is to say that there are no valid birth records for a Barack Obama. The other is to say that Barack Obama had a perfectly good birth record to sell to someone wanting to gain the benefits of citizenship by acting in his name.

  136. avatar
    Joey July 25, 2010 at 9:36 pm #

    nc1: Gov. Lingle told a lie in a radio interview when she said that they issued a press-release about Obama being born in the Kapiolani Hospital. There is no such press-release.Your timeline does not make sense. Nordyke twins were born day later than Obama. If your scenario were true their birth certificates would have been processed on the same day as Obama’s. We know that this is not the case. Their certificates were signed by the attending physician on August 11 and processed by the DoH on the same day. Since Obama’s birth certificate has higher registartion number than those for Nordyke twins, you need to come up with better theory on why Obama’s certificate bears date August 8 yet the certificate number corresponds to August 11 (at best).I could use this timeline to speculate that Obama was not born in the Kapiolani because the DoH took three days to process his registration – this could indicate a different process reserved for unattended birth registrations.Publicly available information does not provide a definitive answer to the question whether Obama was born in the Kapiolani hospital or not.

    Just because some anonymous screen name on the internet says that the Governor of Hawaii was lying doesn’ t make it so. In 71 attempts no court has invalidated the information that Dr. Fukino, Dr. Onaka, Governor Lingle and Attorney General Bennett have all verified.
    There is no rule that says that Certifications of Birth have to be registered in any particular order. It can simply be a matter of whose desk Obama birth data ended up on versus whose desk Nordyke Twins birth data ended up on. Do you really believe that state government bureaucrats work on Friday evenings, Saturdays and Sundays? Are you really that deluded?
    All any judge wants to know is if there is a state issued document verifying birth in that state. The answer from the state of Hawaii is “yes there is:” birth at 7:24 pm on Friday, August 4, 1961 in Honolulu.

  137. avatar
    Joey July 25, 2010 at 9:43 pm #

    Majority Will: And Hawaii has stated recently that there is no such thing as a long form anymore.Everything on the COLB, the certified copy and prima facie evidence valid in any court, is also the exact same information in vital records.What do you mean by photoshopped (sic) copy of his COLB? I’ve never seen any valid proof of that.

    Yes, I’m aware of the fact that the birthers’ favorite term “long form” hasn’t existed since the state went paperless in 2001 and that the so-called COLB is now the Hawaii Certificate of Live Birth and that it is an abbreviated computerized print out of birth data.
    What I meant by “photoshopped” copy is any of the images of Obama’s COLB that has been posted to an internet site including the Fight the Smears image, the Factcheck.org image, the Politifact image, and/or the DailyKoz image

  138. avatar
    Joey July 25, 2010 at 9:48 pm #

    Majority Will: O.K., then I apologize. Your tactic and approach was a little weird.

    No problem.

  139. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 25, 2010 at 9:51 pm #

    Jules: I would expect Taitz to ultimate insist upon personal inspection of the archives of the Hawaii Department of Health just as she has demanded access to the Supreme Court’s records of the handling of her stay application.

    And forensic analysis. Don’t forget about the forensic analysis.

  140. avatar
    Joey July 25, 2010 at 9:54 pm #

    nc1: Gov. Lingle told a lie in a radio interview when she said that they issued a press-release about Obama being born in the Kapiolani Hospital. There is no such press-release.Your timeline does not make sense. Nordyke twins were born day later than Obama. If your scenario were true their birth certificates would have been processed on the same day as Obama’s. We know that this is not the case. Their certificates were signed by the attending physician on August 11 and processed by the DoH on the same day. Since Obama’s birth certificate has higher registartion number than those for Nordyke twins, you need to come up with better theory on why Obama’s certificate bears date August 8 yet the certificate number corresponds to August 11 (at best).I could use this timeline to speculate that Obama was not born in the Kapiolani because the DoH took three days to process his registration – this could indicate a different process reserved for unattended birth registrations.Publicly available information does not provide a definitive answer to the question whether Obama was born in the Kapiolani hospital or not.

    Its none of your business whether Obama was born at Kapiolani Hospital or not. If he was born on a beach on the North Shore of Oahu and delivered by a mid-wife, he’d still be born in Hawaii. If you don’t like the lack of transparency about the exact location of his birth, vote against him in 2012.
    The ONLY constitutionally relevant information that is recorded on a birth record is place of birth in one of the 50 states and date of birth, is the person at least 35 years of age.
    You can’t determine the other Article 2 Section 1 requirement (14 years residence in the US) from a birth record.

  141. avatar
    Joey July 25, 2010 at 9:56 pm #

    BatGuano: or google the term ” photographed ” and you’ll get a gander at over 22 million results.what’s the point you’re trying to make ?

    The point I was trying to make is that I used the term “photoshopped” as a colloquial expression. If my use of the term bothers you or offends you , I am happy to exclude it from my vocabularly while posting here.

  142. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 25, 2010 at 9:57 pm #

    Jules: You indicated previously that the registrar would be the one filling in the form where no parent was available, so I take it that a registrar in such a scenario would take many days to investigate and only then file a birth report.

    Then again, Hawaii was a new state. So everyone must have been a crook.

    I think that the delay is a reasonable expectation, particularly when the birth was on a Friday night and the registration was the next Tuesday.

    Hawaii was a new state, but it was a US Territory long before and the regulations they were operating under basically came from the 1950’s.

  143. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 25, 2010 at 10:07 pm #

    nc1: Gov. Lingle told a lie in a radio interview when she said that they issued a press-release about Obama being born in the Kapiolani Hospital. There is no such press-release.

    Until you learn the difference between a lie and a mistake, no one will take you seriously. It’s absurd to claim that someone would intentionally lie about something in the public record.

  144. avatar
    Joey July 25, 2010 at 10:12 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: So why do you think that hasn’t happened? Or do you think it has?

    It hasn’t happened and I doubt that it ever will happen.
    I think that hasn’t happened because birthers are not interested in the least in resolving this issue. They just want their fantasy kept alive to try to push their larger political agenda. Oh, I’m sure that there are some birthers who really want a court to order Obama’s birth certificate released, but the attorneys like Taitz, Apuzzo, Berg and Donofrio are well aware that a Grand Jury investigation would explode their gravy train so they won’t go anywhere near a real, quick and thorough solution to the issue.
    Obama refusing to release his long form at a cost of twelve dollars is more politically viable than getting a right wing prosecutor to subpoena the document and risking that it says exactly what any intelligent person already knows that it says.
    On the other hand, Obama doesn’t want the birthers to go away either. The Harvard Law School grad, Senior Lecturer in Constitutional Law/Chicago’s biggest law firm part of Obama must be enjoying the hell out of being 71 and O in eligibility lawsuits.

    Additionally, there is an electoral constituency group out there who very well may hold the key to Obama’s reelection in 2012. That constituency group gave him 66% of their support in 2008 and he would like a larger share in 2012. That constituency group, like Obama constantly have their citizenship and allegiance questioned. And, hint, hint, they often speak Spanish. The birther issue works for Obama with them Why the very state that produced the candidate who got the other 33% of their vote is asking members of this constituency group to verify their status any time they encounter a police officer.

  145. avatar
    Jules July 25, 2010 at 10:18 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I think that the delay is a reasonable expectation, particularly when the birth was on a Friday night and the registration was the next Tuesday.Hawaii was a new state, but it was a US Territory long before and the regulations they were operating under basically came from the 1950′s.

    Yes, a four-day delay prior to registration is short and reasonable for a routine birth. However, if this were an exceptional case where a grandmother was telling the registrar that the mother gave birth at home and then absconded with the father and child (the thought of which is making me laugh), then I would not expect the registrar to complete the paperwork the second working day following the alleged birth. Rather, I would expect the registrar to want to try and locate the parents and child first.

    My comment about Hawaii being a new state was a sarcastic reference to the claims by some commenters that Hawaii’s status as a new state would have created a likelihood of fraud of the sort committed by a handful of midwives in California and Texas.

  146. avatar
    Joey July 25, 2010 at 10:18 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Until you learn the difference between a lie and a mistake, no one will take you seriously. It’s absurd to claim that someone would intentionally lie about something in the public record.

    Here Here, well said!
    Linda Lingle wants to run for the US Senate when either of the aging Democratic Senators from Hawaii retires. It makes absolutely no political sense whatsoever for her to carry political water for a Democrat like Obama.
    What does make sense is that Fukino and Onaka mentioned to her that Obama’s birth record says Kapiolani and a year later she mentioned that without remembering that Kapiolani was not named on the press releases that went out confirming Obama’s birth in Hawaii.

  147. avatar
    Joey July 25, 2010 at 10:25 pm #

    Majority Will: Ignorance is not a valid excuse.

    Oh, sometimes it is.
    I’m willing to bet that there are many things in life that you are ignorant about and that you would ask to be excused for not knowing about. Unless of course you’re a perfect and all-knowing human being which is always a possibility, I suppose.

  148. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny July 25, 2010 at 10:31 pm #

    Rickey: I traveled to Germany, Switzerland and France in 2002, but you would never know it from my passport. Germany and Switzerland didn’t stamp it, and the border between Switzerland and France was open. The only stamp in my passport for that trip was when I went through U.S. immigration upon my return. Ditto with a trip I took to Italy in 1999. The stamping of passports by foreign countries is very haphazard. Even if the U.S. has kept a record of the times I went through U.S. immigration, for the most part there is no record of where I had been.

    There is no “haphazardness” in Germany and Switzerland (and Italy) not stamping your passport when you got there (I guess by car or train) from France. All these countries are and were part of the Schengen area, and passport checks on the borders that you mentioned all disappeared between 1990 and 1999. US visitors to the Schengen area would only have an entry stamp from the Schengen country they first visited, and possibly also an exit one from the country they flew back from.

    Passport stamping between the Schengen area on the one hand and non-Schengen EU members is haphazard however. When we visited Cyprus recently, our EU Schengen passports were checked but not stamped. Switzerland was a bit odd too. At the time you mention, your passport would probably have been stamped if you had flown into Switzerland from another
    Schengen country.

    Since some Schengen countries are not part of the EU, there are a few borders where your luggage will be checked, but not your passport (I guess so long as you do not carry contraband). Oh, and Americans visiting Europe for more than 90 days, and therefore carrying a Schengen visa, should be careful about visiting Andorra, since technically it is not part of Schengen at all, meaning you need a multiple-entry Schengen visa in order to “escape” from that little mountain state.

  149. avatar
    Rickey July 25, 2010 at 10:34 pm #

    nc1:

    I could use this timeline to speculate that Obama was not born in the Kapiolani because the DoH took three days to process his registration – this could indicate a different process reserved for unattended birth registrations.Publicly available information does not provide a definitive answer to the question whether Obama was born in the Kapiolani hospital or not.

    What difference does it make? Whether the birth was in a hospital or unattended, the fact remains that there is no credible evidence that Obama was born anywhere but Hawaii. As others have pointed out, it doesn’t matter if he was born in a hospital or on the beach at Waikiki.

    I’ll make the same challenge to you that I have made to other birthers. Show me one documented example of a COLB issued to a person which states that he/she was born in Hawaii even though that person was not born in Hawaii. The birthers claim that it is easy for a foreign-born person to obtain such a Hawaii COLB, but no one has been able to produce one. Show me one, along with proof that the person was born elsewhere, and I will believe that it is possible. Sun Yat-Sen doesn’t count.

  150. avatar
    Rickey July 25, 2010 at 10:47 pm #

    Paul Pieniezny:
    There is no “haphazardness” in Germany and Switzerland (and Italy) not stamping your passport when you got there (I guess by car or train) from France.

    Actually, I flew into Frankfurt from Atlanta, then by car to Switzerland and France. I showed my passport at the airport in Frankfurt, but it wasn’t stamped. I believe that I showed my passport at the Swiss border (near Zurich), but once again it wasn’t stamped. And of course we didn’t even have to stop at the Switzerland/France border.

    In 1999 I flew from Atlanta to Rome, and at the Rome airport I didn’t have to go through either immigration or customs. We went directly to baggage claim and then took the train into the city.

    The point, of course, is that my passport gives only a partial history of my international travels. It was stamped in London, Dublin, Lisbon, Sydney, Melbourne and Auckland. Australia is the only country I visited which stamped my passport on departure.

  151. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 25, 2010 at 10:48 pm #

    nc1: Gov. Lingle told a lie in a radio interview when she said that they issued a press-release about Obama being born in the Kapiolani Hospital. There is no such press-release.Your timeline does not make sense. Nordyke twins were born day later than Obama. If your scenario were true their birth certificates would have been processed on the same day as Obama’s. We know that this is not the case. Their certificates were signed by the attending physician on August 11 and processed by the DoH on the same day. Since Obama’s birth certificate has higher registartion number than those for Nordyke twins, you need to come up with better theory on why Obama’s certificate bears date August 8 yet the certificate number corresponds to August 11 (at best).I could use this timeline to speculate that Obama was not born in the Kapiolani because the DoH took three days to process his registration – this could indicate a different process reserved for unattended birth registrations.Publicly available information does not provide a definitive answer to the question whether Obama was born in the Kapiolani hospital or not.

    I recently had to get another copy of my birth certificate because I had lost mine during a move. I looked it over last week and noticed that even though I was born on December 17th my certificate wasn’t filed until around the 2nd week of January. According to your timeline I must not have been born in California and have a fraudulent certificate.

  152. avatar
    Jules July 25, 2010 at 10:55 pm #

    Paul Pieniezny: There is no “haphazardness” in Germany and Switzerland (and Italy) not stamping your passport when you got there (I guess by car or train) from France. All these countries are and were part of the Schengen area, and passport checks on the borders that you mentioned all disappeared between 1990 and 1999.

    I am a bit surprised that Rickey did not encounter controls at the Swiss border. Switzerland was not a party to the Schengen Agreement in 2002. However, I don’t know what other, less formal arrangements were in place then.

    Paul Pieniezny: When we visited Cyprus recently, our EU Schengen passports were checked but not stamped.

    A passport issued by an EEA member state or Switzerland will never be stamped on entry to another EEA member state or Switzerland. A passport stamp would imply that leave to enter is given, whereas the free movement directive and associated agreements with EFTA states give EEA and Swiss citizens citizens a right of entry. Additionally, national ID cards issued by EEA member states and Switzerland are capable of being used in lieu of passports throughout the EEA or Switzerland.

    I should qualify what I have said above by noting that even though the entire island of Cyprus is theoretically part of the Republic of Cyprus and the EU, the practical reality of the Northern Cypriot state is such that entering Northern Cyprus will always be different.

    As you note, however, there are Schengen-external borders where Europeans will have their passports or ID cards inspected, but not stamped. Those with non-European passports will get stamps at such borders. My favourite is boarding the Eurostar, where someone with a non-European passport can get a UK entry stamp showing entry to the UK in Paris.

    Americans who expect to rely on a passport stamp to prove entry to the UK or Ireland should also note that the UK and Ireland have a Schengen-like arrangement between themselves called the Common Travel Area. I got caught out by this when the date of my initial entry to the UK became relevant in an immigration application this year. As I had a connection in Dublin, I had no UK stamp as evidence. Thankfully, I still had my boarding passes.

  153. avatar
    nc1 July 25, 2010 at 11:42 pm #

    Joey: Just because some anonymous screen name on the internet says that the Governor of Hawaii was lying doesn’ t make it so. In 71 attempts no court has invalidated the information that Dr. Fukino, Dr. Onaka, Governor Lingle and Attorney General Bennett have all verified.There is no rule that says that Certifications of Birth have to be registered in any particular order. It can simply be a matter of whose desk Obama birth data ended up on versus whose desk Nordyke Twins birth data ended up on. Do you really believe that state government bureaucrats work on Friday evenings, Saturdays and Sundays? Are you really that deluded?All any judge wants to know is if there is a state issued document verifying birth in that state. The answer from the state of Hawaii is “yes there is:” birth at 7:24 pm on Friday, August 4, 1961 in Honolulu.

    It is obvious that my point went above your head. I never claimed anything about DoH working on weekends – you are arguing with yourself.

    Re-read my previous post and think about it. Compare dates and registration numbers on Obama vs. Nordyke certificates then come back and explain how you can prove that Obama was born in the Kapiolani based on the available facts.

    You also assume that the COLB image posted on the web is the image of a document issued by the DoH. Yet we have no such confirmation. We only have Obama’s claim that such document was obtained. Not much different from the letter sent by him to the Kapiolani proclaiming that he was born there.

    The following should be a required reading before discussing the COLB image:
    http://israelinsider.com/Articles1/Politics/12956.htm

  154. avatar
    katahdin July 25, 2010 at 11:42 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): I recently had to get another copy of my birth certificate because I had lost mine during a move. I looked it over last week and noticed that even though I was born on December 17th my certificate wasn’t filed until around the 2nd week of January. According to your timeline I must not have been born in California and have a fraudulent certificate.

    I was born in Maine on February 24, but the lazy State of Maine didn’t register my birth until March 17.
    FYI, Maine actually doesn’t have a computerized database for birth records. It cost $60 to get a birth certificate from the State because they have to send someone to dig out the paper document. My father recently got his from the records of the town where he was born, for $20. We’re so backward up here.

  155. avatar
    Expelliarmus July 25, 2010 at 11:44 pm #

    Joey: What I meant by “photoshopped” copy is any of the images of Obama’s COLB that has been posted to an internet site including the Fight the Smears image, the Factcheck.org image, the Politifact image, and/or the DailyKoz image

    The Fight the Smears / Daily Kos image was a scan. Someone laid the paper on a flatbed scanner, pushed the “scan” button, and got an image processed through whatever image processing software they were using. (I think probably Photoshop — but i don’t remember). Usually when people refer to an image being “photoshopped” they mean some sort of editing or manipulation was done – and that was done with the Fight the Smears /Daily Kos image to black out the certificate number.

    The series of 9 images posted on FactCheck are digital photographs of the paper certificate. There is no evidence of any sort of editing or manipulation, though Photoshop or a similar program were probably used at some point to reduce resolution for internet display.

  156. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny July 25, 2010 at 11:49 pm #

    Rickey: Actually, I flew into Frankfurt from Atlanta, then by car to Switzerland and France. I showed my passport at the airport in Frankfurt, but it wasn’t stamped. I believe that I showed my passport at the Swiss border (near Zurich), but once again it wasn’t stamped. And of course we didn’t even have to stop at the Switzerland/France border.In 1999 I flew from Atlanta to Rome, and at the Rome airport I didn’t have to go through either immigration or customs. We went directly to baggage claim and then took the train into the city.The point, of course, is that my passport gives only a partial history of my international travels. It was stamped in London, Dublin, Lisbon, Sydney, Melbourne and Auckland. Australia is the only country I visited which stamped my passport on departure.

    It is perfectly true that on entry the Schengen officials only need to do a thorough identity check and do not have to stamp the passport – but NOW they will often stamp the passport when it has a Schengen visa in it, to make travel to other Schengen countries easier.

    That a US passport without visa (limiting the stay to 90 days) is not usually stamped on entry into Schengen, is not really a problem, since precisely because of Schengen hotels within Schengen are supposed to record the details of any foreigners (yes, like in the film “The Day of the Jackal”, but using computers now instead of gendarmes on motor cycles) meaning they have other ways than the entry stamp to establish that you overstaid your welcome – I guess that is why people who get their visa for being invited by an inhabitant of Schengen always have their passport stamped on entry. Oh, and passenger carriers who take passengers in or over the Schengen area are obliged to check the passports as well NOW. You could call it the privatization of border control.

    As for the Italians in 1999? Well, they are Italians I suppose. Perhaps they assumed anyone on that plane was American anyway. Or that the crew of the plane could be trusted to have checked. And it was too hot or too cold where you were walking.

    Stamping on exit would only be necessary in the case of a multiple entry visa – or when the traveller indeed overstaid, in which case the infraction would also be noted in the passport with the standard penalty for that infraction (like “not eligible to visit the Schengen area for a year”).

    But your point is correct. A passport will never give the full picture of where you have been in your life. Think of that poor European travelling salesman arriving in New York with two stamps in his passport proving he visited Cuba before, but nothing to prove he also visited the USA … twenty times before.

    (The reason why I capitalized NOW a few times: those are regulations that were introduced after 1985 and are slowly being implemented, particularly in countries that joined only recently)

  157. avatar
    Expelliarmus July 26, 2010 at 12:11 am #

    Appropriate documentation needs to be provided to register an unattended birth — so if grandma had shown up at the DOH in 1961, she would have needed to have the requisite documentation in hand. That documentation would have been detailed in administrative regulations extant at the time.

    I’ve got no way of finding those regs via the internet with my current resources — but I found a booklet for California that is useful for understanding the process. See: http://www.cdph.ca.gov/certlic/birthdeathmar/Documents/Out-of-Hospital%20Birth%20Package.pdf

    The California booklet directs parents to make an appointment with the local health department and bring evidence to prove:

    1. Identity of the parent(s)
    2. Pregnancy of the mother
    3. Baby was born alive
    4. Birth occurred in California
    5. Identity of the witness

    The specific type of evidence is detailed at pages 8-11 — for item #3, they require that the baby be brought to the appointment. No baby = no registration.

    It’s a pretty good bet that other states, including Hawaii, have substantially similar requirements.

    The bottom line is that in these circumstances, you can’t just phone it in or submit a form.

  158. avatar
    Expelliarmus July 26, 2010 at 12:19 am #

    Here’s a blog post that summarizes evidence requirements for home birth registrations in numerous states (but not including Hawaii) ==>
    http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showpost.php?p=10467690&postcount=78

    Again, the point is that this is what is typically required, and there’s no reason to assume that Hawaii deviated from the norm either in 1961 or now.

  159. avatar
    nc1 July 26, 2010 at 12:24 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): I recently had to get another copy of my birth certificate because I had lost mine during a move. I looked it over last week and noticed that even though I was born on December 17th my certificate wasn’t filed until around the 2nd week of January. According to your timeline I must not have been born in California and have a fraudulent certificate.

    There is no connection between your birth certificate and the issue being discussed.
    I did not use Obama’s birth registration timeline exclusively. I compared it with the reference (one for Nordyke twins) and observed that Obama’s birth registration was processed differently.

  160. avatar
    Joey July 26, 2010 at 12:36 am #

    nc1: It is obvious that my point went above your head. I never claimed anything about DoH working on weekends – you are arguing with yourself.Re-read my previous post and think about it. Compare dates and registration numbers on Obama vs. Nordyke certificates then come back and explain how you can prove that Obama was born in the Kapiolani based on the available facts.You also assume that the COLB image posted on the web is the image of a document issued by the DoH. Yet we have no such confirmation. We only have Obama’s claim that such document was obtained. Not much different from the letter sent by him to the Kapiolani proclaiming that he was born there.The following should be a required reading before discussing the COLB image:http://israelinsider.com/Articles1/Politics/12956.htm

    Do you REALLY think that a three digit difference in birth certificate registration numbers means something significant? Are you folks THAT desperate to win a minor debating point?
    I already provided an explanation: birth data might not have been registered in precise chronological order by birth and different clerks working at different rates might have been responsible for registering the Nordyke Twins and The Obama infant.

    I’m absolutely delighted however to see that birthers such as yourself are acknowledging that there is indeed a long form birth certificate with a registration number of 151-61-10641 on file for Barack Hussein Obama.
    The state of Hawaii, through its Director of Health issued two different confirmation statements of Obama’s birth records. The first statement was issued on October 31, 2008 and the second was issued on July 27, 2009. That second statement said: “I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, director of the Hawaii State Department of Health have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health VERIFYING Barack Hussein Obama was BORN IN HAWAII and is a NATURAL BORN AMERICAN CITIZEN. I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October, 2008 over eight months ago.”(Capitals, mine)
    http://hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2009/09-063.pdf

    Now I fully realize thet Dr. Fukino’s verification statement is not good enough for you but I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that it is good enough for ANY court in ANY jurisdiction in the United States of America that might look at this issue and it is/will be/has been exhibit number 2 (after a copy of the actual COLB) in defense submissions in legal briefs in Obama eligibility lawsuits.
    Let the parsing of Dr. Fukino’s words begin…

  161. avatar
    Expelliarmus July 26, 2010 at 12:38 am #

    nc1: You also assume that the COLB image posted on the web is the image of a document issued by the DoH. Yet we have no such confirmation

    It doesn’t matter, because the Department of Health has confirmed that they have the original records of Obama’s birth on file, here: http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/obama.html

    IF they have the original documents on file, as stated, then Obama clearly has the ability to obtain a COLB (certified abstract) — so there are 2 possibilities:

    1. Obama posted a true and correct copy of a COLB he obtained through regular procedures in Hawaii; or
    2. Obama created and posted a fake version, despite the fact that he could easily obtain the original — and despite huge political risks entailed when it was clearly foreseeable that the posted document would be distributed to Hawaii authorities for confirmation.

    #2 is implausible under the circumstances. If a person has the ability to obtain a genuine document, why would they bother to produce a fake?

  162. avatar
    nc1 July 26, 2010 at 1:50 am #

    Expelliarmus: It doesn’t matter, because the Department of Health has confirmed that they have the original records of Obama’s birth on file, here: http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/obama.htmlIF they have the original documents on file, as stated, then Obama clearly has the ability to obtain a COLB (certified abstract) — so there are 2 possibilities:1. Obama posted a true and correct copy of a COLB he obtained through regular procedures in Hawaii; or2. Obama created and posted a fake version, despite the fact that he could easily obtain the original — and despite huge political risks entailed when it was clearly foreseeable that the posted document would be distributed to Hawaii authorities for confirmation.#2 is implausible under the circumstances. If a person has the ability to obtain a genuine document, why would they bother to produce a fake?

    It is your assumption that Obama could easily obtain the legitimate COLB from the DoH. The DoH could have confirmed it long time ago when they were asked whether such document had been issued by their office on June 6, 2007. They refused to do so.

    I think that his birth certificate was Amended – and that was the reason why it could not be released to the public without causing additional troubles for Obama.

    They obviously have some kind of birth registration on file – the question is what did Dr. Fukino use as a source for her press-release?

    If the official birthplace story were true, Obama had no reasons to hide the original birth certificate after the presidential elections. His behavior makes sense only if he cannot prove that the official birthplace story is true.

  163. avatar
    nc1 July 26, 2010 at 2:25 am #

    Joey: Do you REALLY think that a three digit difference in birth certificate registration numbers means something significant? Are you folks THAT desperate to win a minor debating point?I already provided an explanation: birth data might not have been registered in precise chronological order by birth and different clerks working at different rates might have been responsible for registering the Nordyke Twins and The Obama infant.I’m absolutely delighted however to see that birthers such as yourself are acknowledging that there is indeed a long form birth certificate with a registration number of 151-61-10641 on file for Barack Hussein Obama.The state of Hawaii, through its Director of Health issued two different confirmation statements of Obama’s birth records. The first statement was issued on October 31, 2008 and the second was issued on July 27, 2009. That second statement said: “I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, director of the Hawaii State Department of Health have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health VERIFYING Barack Hussein Obama was BORN IN HAWAII and is a NATURAL BORN AMERICAN CITIZEN. I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October, 2008 over eight months ago.”(Capitals, mine)http://hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2009/09-063.pdfNow I fully realize thet Dr. Fukino’s verification statement is not good enough for you but I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that it is good enough for ANY court in ANY jurisdiction in the United States of America that might look at this issue and it is/will be/has been exhibit number 2 (after a copy of the actual COLB) in defense submissions in legal briefs in Obama eligibility lawsuits.Let the parsing of Dr. Fukino’s words begin…

    You still do not understand my point. Obama’s certification number was NOT issued on August 8, 1961 (when his certificate was filed in the DoH office) but on August 11.

    A different procedure was used when compared to the Nordyke certificates. Their certificates were filed and numbers assigned on the SAME date (August 11).

    Not tell me how does this scenatrio PROVES that Obama was born in the Kapiolani hospital.

    I only provided an alternative scenario (unattended birth registration) that cannot be dismissed using the timeline of birth registrations and certification numbers.

    I am being charitable here by assuming that the registration number 10641 indeed belongs to Obama. The DoH refused to provide the index data when the request included this registration number. I have no logical explanation for this refusal. It is a trivial request yet they did not want to provide the data!?

    How do we know that Obama’s birth records were not amended between October 2008 and July 2009? In the first Fukino’s press-release there was no mentioning of Hawaii as his birthplace.

    Her second press release does not exclude the possibility of a fraudulent unattended birth registration. Perhaps that is the reason why she does not want to provide any answers to follow up questions.

  164. avatar
    dunstvangeet July 26, 2010 at 2:27 am #

    The document itself is a self-authenitcating document. No further authentication of the document is needed, and it would be provided as the court of law. It can be brought into any court in the land, and serves as prima facie evidence of the facts of birth, one of which is the “city of birth”.

    It’s like saying, “Well, the prosecution proved that the bullet came from the barrel of the gun. But they didn’t prove that the bullet was ever held in the clip of the gun.”

    Or, it’s like saying, “There’s a bunch of windows on a building, all closed. There is no roof access. There is a window that is broken. But the police never proved that the guy was thrown out of that window!”

    It’s an idiotic argument, and will never hold up in a court of law. If Hawaii, for some reason, came to your desires, then you’d be asking for confirmation of the confirmation of the confirmation…

    You just do not like Obama. You work from the premise that Obama is ineligible, and then try to fit your argument around that premise. Instead, actually work from what Obama has actually shown.

    And don’t come back to me with the guano about “He’s only shown a picture”. Do you honestly expect Obama to spend a billion dollars to send every voter a copy of his birth certificate?

  165. avatar
    Lupin July 26, 2010 at 2:33 am #

    If Obama was white, the whole nonsensical BC argument wouldn’t exist. nc1 can’t stand the idea that a n*** might be president, so obviously there’s got to be a fraud somewhere. That’s his reasoning.

  166. avatar
    nc1 July 26, 2010 at 3:27 am #

    dunstvangeet: The document itself is a self-authenitcating document. No further authentication of the document is needed, and it would be provided as the court of law. It can be brought into any court in the land, and serves as prima facie evidence of the facts of birth, one of which is the “city of birth”.It’s like saying, “Well, the prosecution proved that the bullet came from the barrel of the gun. But they didn’t prove that the bullet was ever held in the clip of the gun.”Or, it’s like saying, “There’s a bunch of windows on a building, all closed. There is no roof access. There is a window that is broken. But the police never proved that the guy was thrown out of that window!”It’s an idiotic argument, and will never hold up in a court of law. If Hawaii, for some reason, came to your desires, then you’d be asking for confirmation of the confirmation of the confirmation…You just do not like Obama. You work from the premise that Obama is ineligible, and then try to fit your argument around that premise. Instead, actually work from what Obama has actually shown.And don’t come back to me with the guano about “He’s only shown a picture”. Do you honestly expect Obama to spend a billion dollars to send every voter a copy of his birth certificate?

    I started from a standpoint of a skeptic who first saw contradictory reports about Obama’s birth. Even a minister in the Kenyan government talked about it in their parliament. Then I look at the first image of COLB published on the web. It is the only image of a Hawaii COLB that does not have the state seal clearly visible by a naked eye.
    I am yet to see a Hawaii COLB (other than Obama’s) where only one fold line is visible.

    It took Obama two months to provide a better version (I guess they used comments about the first one as a guideline).

    The DoH refuses to release a trivial information.

    All along there has been a trivial solution to the whole debate about his birthplace: publish the original birth certificate. Obama promised to change the tone in Washington DC, end of partisanship, no more business as usual, he promised transparent government. That should include transparency when it comes to the eligibility for office. Instead we got a behavior totally opposite from what was promised.

    I am not buying the official birthplace story.

    If Obama supporters had no doubts about his claim – you would have asked for the release of the original birth certificate.

  167. avatar
    misha July 26, 2010 at 3:43 am #

    nc1: The following should be a required reading before discussing the COLB image:http://israelinsider.com/Articles1/Politics/12956.htm

    Normally, I don’t reply to drivel. In this case, I feel compelled.

    Israel Insider proves that we are catching up with the rest of the world in producing right wing crackpots. I might add that crowd is ruining Israel.

    Anyone who listens to that bunch of shondes, deserves what he gets.

    Here’s something for you to stew on: Obama is absolutely correct in ignoring Denialists. Arizona’s new law can only help him in ’12. And if he released what you are screeching about, there would be a whole new slew of blogs “proving” that is a forgery, too.

    I can’t wait for Booker to run in ’16. Fasten your seatbelt.

  168. avatar
    Joey July 26, 2010 at 3:47 am #

    nc1: You still do not understand my point. Obama’s certification number was NOT issued on August 8, 1961 (when his certificate was filed in the DoH office) but on August 11.A different procedure was used when compared to the Nordyke certificates. Their certificates were filed and numbers assigned on the SAME date (August 11).Not tell me how does this scenatrio PROVES that Obama was born in the Kapiolani hospital.I only provided an alternative scenario (unattended birth registration) that cannot be dismissed using the timeline of birth registrations and certification numbers. I am being charitable here by assuming that the registration number 10641 indeed belongs to Obama. The DoH refused to provide the index data when the request included this registration number. I have no logical explanation for this refusal. It is a trivial request yet they did not want to provide the data!?How do we know that Obama’s birth records were not amended between October 2008 and July 2009? In the first Fukino’s press-release there was no mentioning of Hawaii as his birthplace. Her second press release does not exclude the possibility of a fraudulent unattended birth registration. Perhaps that is the reason why she does not want to provide any answers to follow up questions.

    Birth Certificates are self-authenticating documents in a Court of Law. Obama’s birth certtificate has the additional authentification of the Director of Health, the Registrar of Records, the Governor and the Attorney General (who approved both of Dr. Fukino’s press releases).
    Dr. Fukino doesn’t answer follow-up questions because she is bound by federal and state confidentiality of records statutes.
    Any district attorney, state attorney general, or US Attorney could convene a Grand Jury investigation of Obama’s eligibility. A Grand Jury could subpoena Obama’s records without needing his permission and compel Hawaii officials to testify under oath. Document authentification experts could be called to examine the documents for signs of tampering or forgery.

    The fact that nobody has bothered to convene such a Grand Jury investigation for fraud, forgery and election fraud speaks volumes about the illegitimacy of the “birther” charade, a minor component of Obama Derangement Syndrome.

    If you need to know about birth certificate certification numbers and birth hospitals or unattended birth registrations, find a prosecuting attorney who is willing to convene a Grand Jury investigation.

  169. avatar
    Jules July 26, 2010 at 5:23 am #

    As I understand it, the certificate number was assigned at the very end of the birth registration process. At that point, certified copies of the registration were capable of being issued.

    I don’t know exactly why Obama’s registration apparently reached the end of the process and was assigned a number less quickly than the Nordyke twins’ registration. I also don’t see how it is relevant. We have all encountered inconsistencies in the rate at which the same applications are processed. I have, for example, found that some of my UK immigration applications have been processed more rapidly or slowly than someone submitting a similar application at the same time.

    There is no particular reason to believe that the Hawaii Department of Health considered it necessary to process all registrations in the same amount of time. Strict procedures to complete processing of items in the order in which they are received would involve a system to keep the documents in the same order throughout processing and ensure that no document gets processed ahead of one that reaches the office later.

    Such a process would necessarily involve additional resources to check that the order of processing was not disrupted. An organisation would only bother having such a strict rule if the order mattered. In land registration, it is clearly necessary to deal with registrations in the order in which they are received; the order of registration of different interests in the same land can have substantial legal consequences. In the case of birth registration, there is no practical consequence if a person’s birth registration is processed ahead that of another whose paperwork arrived in the office slightly earlier.

    There are some who suggest that Obama’s registration was processed more slowly because it was an unattended birth. However, even if we assume that Obama’s registration was unattended and attracted greater scrutiny leading to later completion of processing, this would not confirm the assertion that the birth registration was somehow suspect. Such greater scrutiny in the processing of an unattended birth would confirm that Hawaii required greater evidence for an unattended birth and that the Department of Health needed time to review it in detail. It would certainly not confirm that evidentiary requirements for an unattended birth were lax.

  170. avatar
    Keith July 26, 2010 at 5:48 am #

    nc1:
    I started from a standpoint of a skeptic who first saw contradictory reports about Obama’s birth…

    I don’t believe you.

    You have never seen ‘contradictory reports’ because there are none) and you are not a skeptic because you are not asking honest questions or paying attention to honest answers).

    There are no contradictory reports, only documented assertions on one side, and unmitigated falsehoods, frauds, forgeries, and con-artists on the other. There is not one shred of evidence that contradicts the documented, signed, and sealed (i.e. certified) assertion that the President was born in Hawai’i. None. Zero. Nada.

    No honest skeptic can deny evidence and embrace nonsense, that is the exact opposite of scepticism. A skeptic is NOT a person who refuses to listen to rational argument and rejects evidence. A skeptic researches the appropriate evidence, discards bunkum, and embraces truth. Skeptics look for honest answers to honest questions.

    You are doing none of these things. You repeat the same bunkum, over and over, even though every one of your birther assertions has been thoroughly discredited. You aren’t looking for answers of any kind, you are simply looking for dishonest questions that you can use as a wedge to spread Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. And it makes no difference to you whether a question is answered or not, you will just continue to pose the same fraudulent rubbish over and over and over as if it is a valid doubt or indeed ever had any relevancy what-so-ever.

    That is not the behavior of a skeptic, that is the mark of the denier, or quite possibly, the professional propagandist. Or Con-artist.

  171. avatar
    Keith July 26, 2010 at 5:59 am #

    Jules: There is no particular reason to believe that the Hawaii Department of Health considered it necessary to process all registrations in the same amount of time. Strict procedures to complete processing of items in the order in which they are received would involve a system to keep the documents in the same order throughout processing and ensure that no document gets processed ahead of one that reaches the office later.

    Consider that the actual physical filing process was manual.A piece of paper got stuck in its archival location by hand – no computers in 1961. It is reasonable to imagine office procedures where the batch was alphabetized, whether by the hospital before delivery or by the registration office at receipt in order to aid the manual filing process and to help locate a specific document while it was in the workflow. Whose certificate would have been processed first in that case ‘Nordyke’ or ‘Obama?

  172. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 26, 2010 at 8:30 am #

    nc1: I started from a standpoint of a skeptic who first saw contradictory reports about Obama’s birth.

    If you had been skeptical about those first reports, you might not have fallen down the mental rabbit hole.

  173. avatar
    Majority Will July 26, 2010 at 9:00 am #

    Keith:
    I don’t believe you.
    You have never seen contradictory reports’ because there are none) and you are not a skeptic because you are not asking honest questions or paying attention to honest answers).There are no contradictory reports, only documented assertions on one side, and unmitigated falsehoods, frauds, forgeries, and con-artists on the other. There is not one shred of evidence that contradicts the documented, signed, and sealed (i.e. certified) assertion that the President was born in Hawai’i. None. Zero. Nada.
    No honest skeptic can deny evidence and embrace nonsense, that is the exact opposite of scepticism. A skeptic is NOT a person who refuses to listen to rational argument and rejects evidence. A skeptic researches the appropriate evidence, discards bunkum, and embraces truth. Skeptics look for honest answers to honest questions.You are doing none of these things. You repeat the same bunkum, over and over, even though every one of your birther assertions has been thoroughly discredited. You aren’t looking for answers of any kind, you are simply looking for dishonest questions that you can use as a wedge to spread Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. And it makes no difference to you whether a question is answered or not, you will just continue to pose the same fraudulent rubbish over and over and over as if it is a valid doubt or indeed ever had any relevancy what-so-ever.
    That is not the behavior of a skeptic, that is the mark of the denier, or quite possibly, the professional propagandist. Or Con-artist.

    Hear, hear.

  174. avatar
    Majority Will July 26, 2010 at 10:46 am #

    Joey:
    Oh, sometimes it is.
    I’m willing to bet that there are many things in life that you are ignorant about and that you would ask to be excused for not knowing about. Unless of course you’re a perfectand all-knowing human being which is always a possibility, I suppose.

    You missed my point.

  175. avatar
    Rickey July 26, 2010 at 10:49 am #

    Jules:
    am a bit surprised that Rickey did not encounter controls at the Swiss border. Switzerland was not a party to the Schengen Agreement in 2002. However, I don’t know what other, less formal arrangements were in place then.

    Just to clarify, I did have to show my papers when crossing into Switzerland from Germany, although they did not stamp my passport. The open border was when I entered France from Switzerland. There was a building at the border, but it was closed and vehicles were entering France without having to stop. I didn’t notice if vehicles entering Switzerland at that crossing were being stopped.

  176. avatar
    Majority Will July 26, 2010 at 10:55 am #

    Joey:
    Yes, I’m aware of the fact that the birthers’ favorite term “long form” hasn’t existed since the state went paperless in 2001 and that the so-called COLB is now the Hawaii Certificate of Live Birth and that it is an abbreviated computerized print out of birth data.
    What I meant by “photoshopped” copy is any of the images of Obama’s COLB that has been posted to an internet site including the Fight the Smears image, the Factcheck.org image, the Politifact image, and/or the DailyKoz image

    Adobe Photoshop is a powerful image editing program. It is used for many legitimate reasons but birthers typically use “photoshopped” incorrectly and as a verb to mean the COLB was deliberately altered in order to deceive the public. There’s no credible evidence that anyone has done this. This nonsense was spread as FUD by WND and unqualified, previously anonymous, non-experts looking to smear the President and further the birther conspiracy. See Ron Polland aka Ron Polarik.

    A scan of a certified document is just a scan so that itcan be formatted as a JPEG image and posted on the internet. It doesn’t necessarily mean Adobe Photoshop was used in the process nor does it imply it was altered.

  177. avatar
    Black Lion July 26, 2010 at 11:05 am #

    New fiction by the Post and E-mail…rehasing the same lies and blaming journalists for Obama being elected….

    “In October 2008, the Los Angeles Times refused to release video footage of a dinner held for Palestinian supporter Rashid al-Khalidi during which Obama allegedly had been “bashing Jews and Israel.” One well-known blogger states that al-Khalidi was “best friends with Bill Ayers.” In April 2008, The Los Angeles Times covered the al-Khalidi-Obama relationship here.

    Several journalists condemned George Stephanopoulos of ABC News for asking Obama during a debate, “Do you think Reverend Wright loves America as much as you do?” According to The Daily Caller, journalists from Salon, The UK Guardian, The Politico, Time, and The Huffington Post all expressed outrage over “how Obama had been treated in the media, and in some cases plotted to fix the damage.”

    Rev. Wright was Obama’s pastor at Trinity United Church for 20 years and gained notoriety during the 2008 presidential campaign by his anti-American rhetoric. However, The New York Times failed to report Wright’s incendiary remarks in a piece apparently intended to convince the reader of Obama’s Christian faith, while ABC News presented more balanced coverage. even when he stated that his faith was “Muslim” to George Stephanopoulos in an interview shortly before the election.

    Journalists have become so slipshod in their reporting that at times, their sentences make no sense and they are unable to spell. Perhaps they are too eager to destroy anyone working to uncover Obama’s birthplace and other related information which could determine his eligibility to be president. “Journalist” Martin Wisckol of The Orange County Register injected his contempt for Dr. Orly Taitz when he reported her alleged request to verify the signature of Associate Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas when he made the statement that “an editor” commented to him, “She should ask for his birth certificate while she’s at it.”

    Mr. Wisckol obviously did not contact Taitz regarding her motion. The Post & Email did, and Taitz told us that she not only questioned the signature of Justice Clarence Thomas but also appealed to Chief Justice John Roberts regarding the sanctions, something Taitz mentioned on her website but which the writer conveniently did not. Wisckol also apparently used the word “approval” instead of “denial,” which Taitz told us appeared on the Supreme Court docket eventually.

    Taitz stated that if necessary, she would appeal to each Supreme Court justice in turn, “all nine of them if I have to.” Dr. Taitz also told us that last week, she had checked the Supreme Court website for a response from Associate Justice Clarence Thomas but found none as of Friday, July 16, but that on Saturday, she began to receive comments on her website that a denial had been posted, backdated to July 15. Taitz told The Post & Email that she thought it strange that a decision from anyone on the Supreme Court would be posted on a Saturday and questioned whether or not Thomas had actually reviewed her appeal.

    Rather than find out the facts, the Orange County Register is too preoccupied with being sarcastic and producing stories such as “How to Predict an Earthquake with a Donut,” and “Five Things we’ll Miss the Most about Star Tours” while, Obama, Congress, the courts and government employees continue to dismantle our freedoms and way of life guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution by passing crippling banking restrictions with more government oversight and ability to interfere in private institutions, health care mandates and rationing, and government-funded abortion.

    Breaking news today is that Anita MonCrief will file an FEC complaint against the Obama campaign for “illicit coordination” with ACORN. MonCrief is in possession of his campaign donor list and claims that The New York Times turned down publishing her story before the election, stating that it would be a “game-changer” for Obama if they did. MonCrief claims that ACORN conducted and admitted to a “massive push” for Obama in 2008 instead of fulfilling its purported role of a “non-partisan” organization.

    http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/07/24/liberal-journalists-shamelessly-shilled-for-obama-to-hand-him-the-election/

  178. avatar
    Black Lion July 26, 2010 at 11:08 am #

    And as usual the Post and Fail publishes a seditious article from the former General Paul Valley….

    “We cannot permit the current leaders in the White House and Halls of Congress to continue in their efforts to lead us down the road of Progressive Socialism. This is the current battle that we Constitutionalists face and we must be aggressive in our efforts. Of notice is the Arrogance Incompetence and Dishonesty of officials as relates to Legislation, National Security, Economy, and is the rationale for multiple resignations and a serious change of government. The Fate of the country is now in our hands and the plea from the majority of our citizens is to enforce our Constitutional and Existing Laws. There is a growing list of documented violations by current elected and appointed government officials of the Constitution and their Oath of Office. The 2010 November elections will be the most pivotal mid-term elections in our history.

    “We, the People” have had enough. Enough is Enough. The Obama White House and identifiable Members of Congress are now on a progressive, socialist and treasonous death march and are bankrupting the country beyond expectations. We have watched them violate their sacred oath of office. “We, the People” cannot solely depend on the results of the elections. It is now that many of these public servants (and you know who they are) must put the people and country interests above self-interest by resigning immediately. A civil uprising is still not out of the question as “pain” grips the country more each day. I am confident many more resignations and new representation will be forthcoming based on the efforts of the people. This means raising your voice now to your neighbors, family, co-workers, and friends. Be the Captains of your Souls. I pray for another George Washington to appear within the year and lead us.”

    http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/07/25/we-are-the-masters-of-our-fate-and-captains-of-our-soul/

  179. avatar
    PetJake July 26, 2010 at 11:18 am #

    Keith:
    I don’t believe you.
    You have never seen contradictory reports’ because there are none) and you are not a skeptic because you are not asking honest questions or paying attention to honest answers).There are no contradictory reports, only documented assertions on one side, and unmitigated falsehoods, frauds, forgeries, and con-artists on the other. There is not one shred of evidence that contradicts the documented, signed, and sealed (i.e. certified) assertion that the President was born in Hawai’i. None. Zero. Nada.
    No honest skeptic can deny evidence and embrace nonsense, that is the exact opposite of scepticism. A skeptic is NOT a person who refuses to listen to rational argument and rejects evidence. A skeptic researches the appropriate evidence, discards bunkum, and embraces truth. Skeptics look for honest answers to honest questions.You are doing none of these things. You repeat the same bunkum, over and over, even though every one of your birther assertions has been thoroughly discredited. You aren’t looking for answers of any kind, you are simply looking for dishonest questions that you can use as a wedge to spread Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. And it makes no difference to you whether a question is answered or not, you will just continue to pose the same fraudulent rubbish over and over and over as if it is a valid doubt or indeed ever had any relevancy what-so-ever. That is not the behavior of a skeptic, that is the mark of the denier, or quite possibly, the professional propagandist. Or Con-artist.

    ———————————————————————————————-

    .

    "Documented assertions?"

    .

    "Honest answers?"

    .

    "Rational arguments?"

    .

    What a bunch of claptrap!. .

    .

    There is not one shred of tangible valid evidence proving that Obama was born in Hawaii.

    .

    Zero. Zip. Nada. Nyet. No way. No how. No dice. .

    .

    Your "evidence" is the "assertion" of a Hawaiian bureaucrat, running interference for Obama? Really?
    .

    That’s your proof? A "documented assertion?" What can you do with a "documented assertion?" .

    Can you get a driver’s license with a “documented assertion?”

    How about a valid Social Security card?
    A valid US Passport?
    A valid enrollment in elementary and secondary schools?
    A valid enrollment in college?
    A valid Marriage License?
    A valid License to practice law, medicine, etc.?

    .

    Can you show a one-sided Internet image of a COLB to get a
    valid Drivers’ License? A valid Social Security card? A valid US
    Passport? A valid enrollment in elementary and secondary schools?
    A valid enrollment in college? A valid Marriage License? A valid
    License to practice law, medicine, etc.?

    .

    This is how ridiculous your arguments are.

    .

    You asked me to tell you how Obama’s birth certificate/birth
    record has been handled any differently than any other.I was
    going to put this over on the Spinning Fukino thread, but it is
    more applicable here because of this total nonsense being thrown
    around as if any of resembled the truth.

    .

    Before November 2008 election:

    .

    The Hawaiian Health Department did the following:

    .

    Lied to the public that they no longer provide anyone
    with a copy of their original, long-form birth
    certificate.

    .

    Lied to the public that they have no way for anyone
    to request a copy of their original, long-form birth
    certificate.

    .

    Lied to the public that they discarded original,
    long-form birth certificates when they went to electronic
    records.

    .

    Lied to electors that they could not get verification
    of Obama’s birth certificate.

    .

    Twice violated Hawaii Statute 338-18 by publicly
    disclosing private information from Obama’s vital
    records.

    .

    Refused to confirm they produced a genuine, certified
    COLB for Obama.

    .

    Never authenticated the online COLB

    .

    Stated that someone had requested it in June 2008,
    but the online COLB is date-stamped June 2007.

    .

    Deliberately avodied telling the public that a COLB
    is not, and never was, an original birth certificate.

    .

    Stated two days before election that they have
    Obama’s original birth certificate but never confirmed
    that it was issued by Hawaii and, if so, then what type
    of birth certificate was it.

    .

    Before November 2008 election:

    .

    The Governor’s Office did the following:

    .

    Did not say anything about Obama’s birth certificate.

    .

    Did say that Obama "does not act like someone
    born in Hawaii."

    .

    After the November 2008 election:

    .

    The Hawaiian Health Department did the following:

    .

    Violated Hawaii Statute 338-18 by again publicly
    disclosing private information from Obama’s vital
    records.

    .

    Eight months afterwards, disclosed that Obama’s
    "vital records" (not his "birth
    certificate") indicate he was born in Hawaii, but
    never identifed what those vital records were.

    .

    Had the Hawaiian Homeland Program remove its
    requirement for submitting a long-form birth certificate
    and allow the COLB to be a sufficient proof of birth.

    .

    Confirmed that original, long-form birth certificates
    are still kept on file as required by law..

    .

    Vigorously supported unconstitutional law to deny
    Freedom of Information inquiries to "vexatious
    requestors."

    .

    Lied under oath at hearings about the true numbers of
    people requesting copies of Obama’s birth certificate.

    .

    Lied under oath at hearings that Obama posted a copy
    of his "birth certificate" after refusing to
    authenticate it.

    .

    Also violated Hawaii Statute 338-18, again, by
    stating that Obama posted a copy of his birth
    certificate.

    .

    Secretly and illegally probed the identities of
    persons submitting Freedom of Information requests

    .

    Capriciously violated the Constitutional rights of US
    citizens making Freedom of Information requests.

    .

    Lied about not having the information sought by
    citizens submitting Freedom of Information requests.

    .

    Deliberately delayed responding to citizens
    submitting Freedom of Information requests for index data
    related to Obama’s birth record , and not about his birth
    certificate – that Hawaii is required by Law to duly
    provide.

    .

    Eliminated the Certification of Live Birth (COLB)
    form solely because of questions raised about Obama’s
    COLB

    .

    Created a new Certificate of Live Birth form solely
    because of questions raised about Obama’s COLB.

    .

    After November 2008 election:

    .

    The Governor’s Office did the following:

    .

    Lied about sending Fukino to check out Obama’s birth
    certificate.

    .

    Lied about issuing a press release along with Fukino.

    .

    Lied about Fukino identifying the name of the
    hospital where Obama was born

    .

    Violated Hawaii Statute 338-18 by publicly disclosing
    private information from Obama’s vital records.

    .

    The Attorney General’s Office

    .

    Refused to back Fukino’s July 27, 2009 statement

    .

    What exactly is "authoritative" about a Hawaiian
    bureaucrat, running interference for Obama?
    How do her
    statements become elevated to the level of the Constitution,
    considering that they’ve already violated it along with several
    Hawaii Statutes just to prevent Obama’s true original birth
    certificate from ever seeing the light of day.

    .

    Plus, how contemptuous is it for people who do not trust
    Republicans, who claim they lie all the time, to suddenly
    elevate
    this particular Republican to the level of a
    Goddess on Mount Olympus and attribute to her all kinds of "authority,
    faith, and credit"
    for making a statement, full of
    fictitious events, that support their unsubstantiated beliefs
    along with the unsubstantiated statements made by a Hawaiian
    bureaucrat, running interference for Obama
    , despite the
    fact that this particular Republican is a phony baloney
    Republican, who is as liberal to the core as any Democrat, just
    like the phony baloney Republican she campaigned for, Senator
    John "Amnesty" McSame.

    .

    Now, that was onelongassedrunonsentence!

    .

    Is there is another "citizen" in the United States
    of America who has a state health department bureaucrat
    running interference for him
    , to prevent the disclosure
    of his original paper birth certificate, along with every other
    piece of direct and tangible evidence that would either support
    or refute his alleged birth in the State of Hawaii?

    .

    No other individual in Hawaii State history or US history has
    ever gotten away with refusing to provide valid proof of his US
    citizenship when required to do so.

    .

    And you’re asking how has his record been handled any
    differently?

    .

    Obama’s entire history and identity has been handled
    differently from everyone else. Only Deep Throat was more
    secretive about his identity than Obama.

    .

    How is this for anonymous — you elected an anonymous
    person
    to the White House.

    .

    The simple and inescapable truth is that Barack Obama could have
    made all of questions go away by releasing his original birth
    certificate – by refusing to do so, this case will never close,
    Will.

    .

    On the contrary, this case keeps getting wider and wilder by
    the day and the only thing that is closed are the minds of those
    who believe that Fukino’s October 2008 press release confirmed
    that she saw Obama’s original, long-form, Hawaiian birth
    certificate and said that Obama was born in Hawaii, as well as
    believing that the birth announcements also prove he was born in
    Hawaii

    .

    You’ve elected the worst person to ever occupy the White House
    and his term is not yet half over. I wouldn’t trust any
    politician of any party to tell me the day of the week, let alone
    tell me that, "Trust me when I tell you that this totally
    inept community organizer from Chicago was born in Hawaii."

    .

    Obama is not an Article II natural-born citizen as required by
    the Constitution. Of course, without any direct and tangible
    proof of his birth in the US, we can’t say he is even a US
    citizen. The question of his birth place, despite all of the
    protests made on his behalf, is based on the verbal statement of
    a Hawaiian bureaucrat running interference for Obama, who
    would be in really deep doo-doo (and probably be tarred and
    feathered by Hawaiian residents) if she said anything other than
    Obama was born there.

    .

    Actually, since the Health Department is not permitted to
    disclose anything about the contents of Obama’s vital records,
    they broke their own laws for the benefit of the Senator from
    Illinois, who has done absolutely nothing for the State of Hawaii
    in his entire political career.

    .

    This is not to say that Obama did not promise the moon to
    Asian-Americans and Native Hawaiians in order to get their votes.
    He made the same promises to every other hyphen-Americans, only
    to screw them over after the election.

    .

    Does anyone know of any other Hawaiian vital record treated in
    this manner?

    .

    How about any other of the 56 (sic) states in the
    nation?

    .

    Would you bet your entire life’s savings that he was born in
    Hawaii? Or that his original birth certificate contains the same
    as information as on his COLB image?

    .

    .

    Obama’s 2007 COLB, even if it was authentic, is not his
    original birth certificate.

    .

    A 2007 COLB is not an original birth certificate, is
    not a copy of an original birth certificate, and never can be
    used in place of an original birth certificate, to prove anyone’s
    birth in Hawaii.

    .

    Sorry, but Barack Obama is the only person in the United
    States of America who refuses to produce, in its entirety, an
    actual, paper birth certificate, whether it is a long-form,
    short-form, or any other form of birth certificate that is an
    actual, physical, official, government produced and government
    certified, paper instrument that unequivocally documents his
    birth in Hawaii and in Kapi’olani Hospital.

    .

    To say otherwise is madness.

  180. avatar
    Rickey July 26, 2010 at 11:19 am #

    Paul Pieniezny:
    Stamping on exit would only be necessary in the case of a multiple entry visa – or when the traveller indeed overstaid, in which case the infraction would also be noted in the passport with the standard penalty for that infraction (like “not eligible to visit the Schengen area for a year”).

    Australia has a requirement that visitors have to obtain an “Electronic Travel Authority” in advance. The ETA in effect means that you have been cleared in advance for entry into the country, and it also permits you to stay for up to 90 days. This probably has something to do with the fact that they stamp passports upon departure.

  181. avatar
    PetJake July 26, 2010 at 11:21 am #

    Majority Will:
    Adobe Photoshop is a powerful image editing program…birthers typically use “photoshopped” incorrectly

    So what? Twittered and blogged ARE legitimate verbs?

  182. avatar
    Majority Will July 26, 2010 at 11:24 am #

    PetJake:
    So what? Twittered and blogged ARE legitimate verbs?

    I didn’t say they were. You have a serious problem with logic, birther boy.

  183. avatar
    Lupin July 26, 2010 at 12:20 pm #

    Black Lion quoting P&F: The Obama White House and identifiable Members of Congress are now on a progressive, socialist and treasonous death march and are bankrupting the country beyond expectations

    The venality and mendacity of those people know no bounds.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2010140720100721

    $700 billion more to the banks. No vote, no discussion, no complaints by Republicans and so called deficit hawks.But we should cut pensions, education and spending on public needs.

  184. avatar
    misha July 26, 2010 at 12:31 pm #

    Lupin: The venality and mendacity of those people know no bounds.

    That is exactly how the Nazi party wormed its way in.

  185. avatar
    Joey July 26, 2010 at 2:19 pm #

    Majority Will: Adobe Photoshop is a powerful image editing program. It is used for many legitimate reasons but birthers typically use “photoshopped” incorrectly and as a verb to mean the COLB was deliberately altered in order to deceive the public. There’s no credible evidence that anyone has done this. This nonsense was spread as FUD by WND and unqualified, previously anonymous, non-experts looking to smear the President and further the birther conspiracy. See Ron Polland aka Ron Polarik.A scan of a certified document is just a scan so that itcan be formatted as a JPEG image and posted on the internet. It doesn’t necessarily mean Adobe Photoshop was used in the process nor does it imply it was altered.

    This is just for you, Majority Will:
    Hey everybody, where I wrote “Photoshopped” in a previous post, please delete that word and insert “scanned.”
    Happy now? Can we get back to political issues?

  186. avatar
    Sef July 26, 2010 at 2:35 pm #

    Joey:
    This is just for you, Majority Will:
    Hey everybody, where I wrote “Photoshopped” in a previous post, please delete that word and insert “scanned.”
    Happy now? Can we get back to political issues?

    The original posted image with the expurgated number may in fact have been “photoshopped” in that after the scan they used Photoshop to blackout the number. They could have used any number of other image editing programs instead. The real point, though, is that the original, paper COLB was not modified & continued to have a separate existence wholly independent of the jpeg file.

  187. avatar
    Majority Will July 26, 2010 at 2:38 pm #

    Joey:
    This is just for you, Majority Will:
    Hey everybody, where I wrote “Photoshopped” in a previous post, please delete that word and insert “scanned.”
    Happy now? Can we get back to political issues?

    Ecstatic. Did you understand my point about birther’s implying fraud and deception without proof or is this just a snark fest now?

    The FUD campaign is being waged on a few different levels and most people seem to not realize they’re being duped.

    Birthers citing WND, Newsbusters or the P&E are good examples.

  188. avatar
    Majority Will July 26, 2010 at 2:43 pm #

    Sef:
    The original posted image with the expurgated number may in fact have been “photoshopped” in that after the scan they used Photoshop to blackout the number.They could have used any number of other image editing programs instead. The real point, though, is that the original, paper COLB was not modified & continued to have a separate existence wholly independent of the jpeg file.

    Excellent point. Thanks, Sef.

    Someone here was once arguing microscopic threads and differing light angles for the supposed proof of a lack of a raised seal in yet another desperate attempt to invalidate the COLB. Sophistic, irrelevant nonsense.

  189. avatar
    Black Lion July 26, 2010 at 3:07 pm #

    Lupin: The venality and mendacity of those people know no bounds.http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2010140720100721$700 billion more to the banks. No vote, no discussion, no complaints by Republicans and so called deficit hawks.But we should cut pensions, education and spending on public needs.

    It is because they are involved in revising history. Meaning under the Bush years, everything was great and now that Obama is President the country is going down the tubes. What is even more amusing is how FOX and some of the ultra right wing conservatives like Limbaugh and Hannity actually are trying to hang Iraq and Afganistan on the Obama administration. Amazing. And the birther hate, where because Obama is (fill in the blank) they are willing to believe in any sort of nonsense that they can come up with. Think about it. Obama is a Nazi/Communist/Socialist, even though those terms are contradictory. They play on the so called “fears of Whites of Blacks” by using terms like “reparations” when discussing his policies. Pointing out the ethnicities of Sotamayor and Holder. Calling him stupid even though he graduated from Columbia and Harvard law. The list goes on. Let us be honest. No document is ever going to satisfy the birthers. No court ruling will be enough. As long as he is President, there will be some that will perpetuate these stories in order to undermine his administration. The birthers are just the latest useful pawns in this endeavor.

  190. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 26, 2010 at 3:15 pm #

    PetJake: A 2007 COLB is not an original birth certificate, is not a copy of an original birth certificate, and never can be used in place of an original birth certificate, to prove anyone’s birth in Hawaii.

    The COLB is a certified abstract copy of Obama’s original birth certificate, the standard form certificate of the state of Hawaii (and most other states nowadays). It is exactly the accepted documentation to prove birth in the United States for all legal purposes. You’re a crank.

  191. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 26, 2010 at 3:20 pm #

    Black Lion (quoting General Paul Vallely): “We, the People” cannot solely depend on the results of the elections.

    And by saying this, Vallely admits that he does not represent “We the people” but some minority too small to influence the elections.

    A civil uprising is still not out of the question as “pain” grips the country more each day.

    I have a great respect for our Constitution and the wisdom of the founders, but I would attribute much of the historical political stability of the United States to the fact that most Americans are pretty well off, and those with much to loose are less likely to rock the boat. While there is some anxiety over the current recession, I think most folks are optimistic about a recovery in a reasonable amount of time.

    I went to a very working class wedding a few weeks back where one of the brides maids was black. You commonly see folks of different races having lunch together and interracial dating and marriage is becoming more common. And this is in the deep south.

    No, I do not see how we are anywhere near a tipping point where the crazies do anything but affect a few elections in conservative-lock districts.

  192. avatar
    Black Lion July 26, 2010 at 3:23 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: And by saying this, Vallely admits that he does not represent “We the people” but some minority too small to influence the elections.

    Doc, great catch. Vallely is admitting that he is advocation sedition. Meaning that even though the President was elected fairly and in accordance to the Constitution, since he doesn’t like the results it is OK to want to overthrow the government…

  193. avatar
    Black Lion July 26, 2010 at 3:26 pm #

    And oldie but goodie….It is long but worth reading again….and most of all it is so true….

    http://kaystreet.wordpress.com/2010/07/26/an-open-letter-to-conservatives-redux/

    Recent news events call for a reposting of Russell King’s “An Open Letter To Conservatives” in its entirety.

    Dear Conservative Americans,

    The years have not been kind to you. I grew up in a profoundly Republican home, so I can remember when you wore a very different face than the one we see now. You’ve lost me and you’ve lost most of America. Because I believe having responsible choices is important to democracy, I’d like to give you some advice and an invitation.

    First, the invitation: Come back to us.

    Now the advice. You’re going to have to come up with a platform that isn’t built on a foundation of cowardice: fear of people with colors, religions, cultures and sex lives that differ from your own; fear of reform in banking, health care, energy; fantasy fears of America being transformed into an Islamic nation, into social/commun/fasc-ism, into a disarmed populace put in internment camps; and more. But you have work to do even before you take on that task.

    Your party — the GOP — and the conservative end of the American political spectrum have become irresponsible and irrational. Worse, it’s tolerating, promoting and celebrating prejudice and hatred. Let me provide some examples — by no means an exhaustive list — of where the Right as gotten itself stuck in a swamp of hypocrisy, hyperbole, historical inaccuracy and hatred.

    If you’re going to regain your stature as a party of rational, responsible people, you’ll have to start by draining this swamp:

    ……

    So, dear conservatives, get to work. Drain the swamp of the conspiracy nuts, the bald-faced liars undeterred by demonstrable facts, the overt hypocrisy and the hatred. Then offer us a calm, responsible, grownup agenda based on your values and your vision for America. We may or may not agree with your values and vision, but we’ll certainly welcome you back to the American mainstream with open arms. We need you.

    (Anticipating your initial response: No there is nothing that even comes close to this level of wingnuttery on the American Left.)

  194. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 26, 2010 at 3:33 pm #

    PetJake: To say otherwise is madness.

    I should charge by the inch for cut and paste comments (you can tell by the narrow column). I think PetJake’s comment could be patched up to be more or less correct by removing the word “not” everywhere it appears, and inserting “not” where it does not appear.

  195. avatar
    Jules July 26, 2010 at 3:44 pm #

    PetJake: Can you show a one-sided Internet image of a COLB to get a
    valid Drivers’ License?

    Sorry, but the cost of sending every US citizen Obama’s birth certificate would be prohibitive. This is why he scanned it and put it online. He later had it inspected and photographed by Factcheck.

    PetJake: Lied to the public that they no longer provide anyone
    with a copy of their original, long-form birth
    certificate.

    What is your basis for believing that the Hawaii Department of Health still issues people with birth certificates today in the form of certified photocopies of the original? If you are going to accuse someone of lying, you had better have strong evidence.

    PetJake: Obama’s entire history and identity has been handled
    differently from everyone else.

    And which other Presidents have scanned their birth certificates and put them online? Which have invited Factcheck or a similar organisation to inspect their birth certificate and show take their own photos to release to the public.

    As to your assertions that he has been obligated to provide evidence of his birth, please cite a relevant statute or regulation creating an evidential burden.

    PetJake: Plus, how contemptuous is it for people who do not trust
    Republicans, who claim they lie all the time, to suddenly
    elevate this particular Republican to the level of a
    Goddess on Mount Olympus and attribute to her all kinds of “authority,
    faith, and credit” for making a statement

    Full faith and credit has to do with the constitutional duty of other governments in the US to recognise Hawaii’s official acts, records, and proceedings. This applies to the Certification of Live Birth, which is, under Hawaii law, as valid as the original record to establish the facts stated on the document. (The validity of the document is not limited to the US. Obama could easily use his Certification of Live Birth to prove the facts of his birth in any Hague Convention country by taking it to the Hawaii Secretary of State for an apostille.)

    As to why people who normally distrust Republicans trust the word of Lingle on this matter, it’s called a statement against interest. A statement is deemed to be more likely to be true if it actually goes against the interests of the party making the statement. As a Republican, Lingle would have an interest in undermining Obama.

    PetJake: A 2007 COLB is not an original birth certificate, is
    not a copy of an original birth certificate, and never can be
    used in place of an original birth certificate, to prove anyone’s
    birth in Hawaii.

    No person ever possesses their original birth certificate, as the original is kept in the archives of the relevant vital records office. Under Hawaii law, the 2007 Certification of Live Birth constitutes a valid certified copy and is evidence of the facts stated on it to the same extent of the original. Hawaii’s standards for a normal Certification of Live Birth meet State Department standards for proving US citizenship.

  196. avatar
    Ellid July 26, 2010 at 3:45 pm #

    PetJake:
    .”Documented assertions?”
    .”Honest answers?”
    .”Rational arguments?”
    .What a bunch of claptrap!. ..There is not one shred of tangible valid evidence proving that Obama was born in Hawaii..Zero. Zip. Nada. Nyet. No way. No how. No dice. ..Your “evidence” is the “assertion” of a Hawaiian bureaucrat, running interference for Obama? Really?
    .That’s your proof? A “documented assertion?” What can you do with a “documented assertion?” .Can you get a driver’s license with a “documented assertion?”How about a valid Social Security card? A valid US Passport? A valid enrollment in elementary and secondary schools? A valid enrollment in college? A valid Marriage License? A valid License to practice law, medicine, etc.?.Can you show a one-sided Internet image of a COLB to get a
    valid Drivers’ License? A valid Social Security card? A valid US
    Passport? A valid enrollment in elementary and secondary schools?
    A valid enrollment in college? A valid Marriage License? A valid
    License to practice law, medicine, etc.?
    .This is how ridiculous your arguments are..You asked me to tell you how Obama’s birth certificate/birth
    record has been handled any differently than any other.I was
    going to put this over on the Spinning Fukino thread, but it is
    more applicable here because of this total nonsense being thrown
    around as if any of resembled the truth.
    .Before November 2008 election:
    .The Hawaiian Health Department did the following:.Lied to the public that they no longer provide anyone with a copy of their original, long-form birth certificate..Lied to the public that they have no way for anyone to request a copy of their original, long-form birth certificate..Lied to the public that they discarded original, long-form birth certificates when they went to electronic records..Lied to electors that they could not get verification of Obama’s birth certificate..Twice violated Hawaii Statute 338-18 by publicly disclosing private information from Obama’s vital records..Refused to confirm they produced a genuine, certified COLB for Obama..Never authenticated the online COLB .Stated that someone had requested it in June 2008, but the online COLB is date-stamped June 2007..Deliberately avodied telling the public that a COLB is not, and never was, an original birth certificate..Stated two days before election that they have Obama’s original birth certificate but never confirmed that it was issued by Hawaii and, if so, then what type of birth certificate was it..Before November 2008 election:
    .The Governor’s Office did the following:.Did not say anything about Obama’s birth certificate..Did say that Obama “does not act like someone born in Hawaii.”.After the November 2008 election:.The Hawaiian Health Department did the following:.Violated Hawaii Statute 338-18 by again publicly disclosing private information from Obama’s vital records..Eight months afterwards, disclosed that Obama’s “vital records” (not his “birth certificate”) indicate he was born in Hawaii, but never identifed what those vital records were..Had the Hawaiian Homeland Program remove its requirement for submitting a long-form birth certificate and allow the COLB to be a sufficient proof of birth..Confirmed that original, long-form birth certificates are still kept on file as required by law...Vigorously supported unconstitutional law to deny Freedom of Information inquiries to “vexatious requestors.”.Lied under oath at hearings about the true numbers of people requesting copies of Obama’s birth certificate..Lied under oath at hearings that Obama posted a copy of his “birth certificate” after refusing to authenticate it..Also violated Hawaii Statute 338-18, again, by stating that Obama posted a copy of his birth certificate..Secretly and illegally probed the identities of persons submitting Freedom of Information requests.Capriciously violated the Constitutional rights of US citizens making Freedom of Information requests..Lied about not having the information sought by citizens submitting Freedom of Information requests..Deliberately delayed responding to citizens submitting Freedom of Information requests for index data related to Obama’s birth record , and not about his birth certificate – that Hawaii is required by Law to duly provide..Eliminated the Certification of Live Birth (COLB) form solely because of questions raised about Obama’s COLB.Created a new Certificate of Live Birth form solely because of questions raised about Obama’s COLB..After November 2008 election:
    .The Governor’s Office did the following:.Lied about sending Fukino to check out Obama’s birth certificate..Lied about issuing a press release along with Fukino..Lied about Fukino identifying the name of the hospital where Obama was born.Violated Hawaii Statute 338-18 by publicly disclosing private information from Obama’s vital records..The Attorney General’s Office.Refused to back Fukino’s July 27, 2009 statement.What exactly is “authoritative” about a Hawaiian
    bureaucrat, running interference for Obama?
    How do her
    statements become elevated to the level of the Constitution,
    considering that they’ve already violated it along with several
    Hawaii Statutes just to prevent Obama’s true original birth
    certificate from ever seeing the light of day..Plus, how contemptuous is it for people who do not trust
    Republicans, who claim they lie all the time, to suddenly
    elevate
    this particular Republican to the level of a
    Goddess on Mount Olympus and attribute to her all kinds of “authority,
    faith, and credit”
    for making a statement, full of
    fictitious events, that support their unsubstantiated beliefs
    along with the unsubstantiated statements made by a Hawaiian
    bureaucrat, running interference for Obama
    , despite the
    fact that this particular Republican is a phony baloney
    Republican, who is as liberal to the core as any Democrat, just
    like the phony baloney Republican she campaigned for, Senator
    John “Amnesty” McSame.
    .Now, that was onelongassedrunonsentence!.Is there is another “citizen” in the United States
    of America who has a state health department bureaucrat
    running interference for him
    , to prevent the disclosure
    of his original paper birth certificate, along with every other
    piece of direct and tangible evidence that would either support
    or refute his alleged birth in the State of Hawaii?.No other individual in Hawaii State history or US history has
    ever gotten away with refusing to provide valid proof of his US
    citizenship when required to do so.
    .And you’re asking how has his record been handled any
    differently?.Obama’s entire history and identity has been handled
    differently from everyone else. Only Deep Throat was more
    secretive about his identity than Obama..How is this for anonymous — you elected an anonymous
    person
    to the White House..The simple and inescapable truth is that Barack Obama could have
    made all of questions go away by releasing his original birth
    certificate – by refusing to do so, this case will never close,
    Will.
    .On the contrary, this case keeps getting wider and wilder by
    the day and the only thing that is closed are the minds of those
    who believe that Fukino’s October 2008 press release confirmed
    that she saw Obama’s original, long-form, Hawaiian birth
    certificate and said that Obama was born in Hawaii, as well as
    believing that the birth announcements also prove he was born in
    Hawaii.You’ve elected the worst person to ever occupy the White House
    and his term is not yet half over. I wouldn’t trust any
    politician of any party to tell me the day of the week, let alone
    tell me that, “Trust me when I tell you that this totally
    inept community organizer from Chicago was born in Hawaii.”.Obama is not an Article II natural-born citizen as required by
    the Constitution. Of course, without any direct and tangible
    proof of his birth in the US, we can’t say he is even a US
    citizen. The question of his birth place, despite all of the
    protests made on his behalf, is based on the verbal statement of
    a Hawaiian bureaucrat running interference for Obama, who
    would be in really deep doo-doo (and probably be tarred and
    feathered by Hawaiian residents) if she said anything other than
    Obama was born there..Actually, since the Health Department is not permitted to
    disclose anything about the contents of Obama’s vital records,
    they broke their own laws for the benefit of the Senator from
    Illinois, who has done absolutely nothing for the State of Hawaii
    in his entire political career..This is not to say that Obama did not promise the moon to
    Asian-Americans and Native Hawaiians in order to get their votes.
    He made the same promises to every other hyphen-Americans, only
    to screw them over after the election..Does anyone know of any other Hawaiian vital record treated in
    this manner?.How about any other of the 56 (sic) states in the
    nation?
    .Would you bet your entire life’s savings that he was born in
    Hawaii? Or that his original birth certificate contains the same
    as information as on his COLB image?..Obama’s 2007 COLB, even if it was authentic, is not his
    original birth certificate.
    .A 2007 COLB is not an original birth certificate, is
    not a copy of an original birth certificate, and never can be
    used in place of an original birth certificate, to prove anyone’s
    birth in Hawaii.
    .Sorry, but Barack Obama is the only person in the United
    States of America who refuses to produce, in its entirety, an
    actual, paper birth certificate, whether it is a long-form,
    short-form, or any other form of birth certificate that is an
    actual, physical, official, government produced and government
    certified, paper instrument that unequivocally documents his
    birth in Hawaii and in Kapi’olani Hospital..To say otherwise is madness.

    First, your last paragraph is wrong. because *I*, Ellid, categorically refuse to produce MY “long form” birth certificate from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. I refuse to do so because the abstract certificate the Commonwealth sent me in 1989 is legally all that’s required. Same thing with the President.

    Second, go back to Troll Land and leave the grown-ups alone. Your assertions are tiresome.

    NOW COMES THE TIME WHEN WE DANCE!!!!!!

  197. avatar
    SluggoJD July 26, 2010 at 3:46 pm #

    PetJake appears to be PooPooPolarik’s shiny new sockpuppet.

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:n7HxdjdikZsJ:profiles.yahoo.com/polarik

  198. avatar
    Joey July 26, 2010 at 4:02 pm #

    Majority Will: Ecstatic. Did you understand my point about birther’s implying fraud and deception without proof or is this just a snark fest now?The FUD campaign is being waged on a few different levels and most people seem to not realize they’re being duped.Birthers citing WND, Newsbusters or the P&E are good examples.

    Yes, I understand your point.

  199. avatar
    Majority Will July 26, 2010 at 4:03 pm #

    Joey:
    Yes, I understand your point.

    Thanks.

  200. avatar
    Jules July 26, 2010 at 4:05 pm #

    Ellid:
    First, your last paragraph is wrong. because *I*, Ellid, categorically refuse to produce MY “long form” birth certificate from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.I refuse to do so because the abstract certificate the Commonwealth sent me in 1989 is legally all that’s required.Same thing with the President.Second, go back to Troll Land and leave the grown-ups alone.Your assertions are tiresome.NOW COMES THE TIME WHEN WE DANCE!!!!!!

    Actually, Obama has done rather more than legally required by scanning his Certification of Live Birth and putting it online and then making the hard copy available for inspection by Factcheck.

    Not only are certified abstract copies sufficient in nearly all circumstances, but there are many people who have never held a certified photocopy of the original or similar “long form” certificate. I am one of them. My parents used my New York Certification of Birth (a certified abstract) to apply for my Social Security Card. I used it to get a state ID and later a US passport.

  201. avatar
    Majority Will July 26, 2010 at 4:08 pm #

    SluggoJD: PetJake appears to be PooPooPolarik’s shiny new sockpuppet.http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:n7HxdjdikZsJ:profiles.yahoo.com/polarik

    Great catch and not surprising.

    Many birthers are desperate and pathetic enough into trying to convince anyone that he/she is not completely delusional and whack-a-doodle.

  202. avatar
    dunstvangeet July 26, 2010 at 4:12 pm #

    PetJake:
    There is not one shred of tangible valid evidence proving that Obama was born in Hawaii. Zero. Zip. Nada. Nyet. No way. No how. No dice.

    Except for the Document, issued by the State of Hawaii, that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Obama was born in Hawaii. Other than that, you’re right.

    Your “evidence” is the “assertion” of a Hawaiian bureaucrat, running interference for Obama?

    Actually, our evidence is the document behind the pictures.

    Can you get a driver’s license with a “documented assertion?”How about a valid Social Security card? A valid US Passport? A valid enrollment in elementary and secondary schools? A valid enrollment in college? A valid Marriage License? A valid License to practice law, medicine, etc.?

    You can do all these things with the document that was scanned and photographed.

    Can you show a one-sided Internet image of a COLB to get a valid Drivers’ License? A valid Social Security card? A valid US Passport? A valid enrollment in elementary and secondary schools? A valid enrollment in college? A valid Marriage License? A valid License to practice law, medicine, etc.?

    Nice strawman. Now, let me put this same strawman upto you. You obviously do not believe that Obama putting his birth certificate out on the internet in both pictures and a scan is not enough. So, you must believe that candinates should furbish the birth certificate to every single voter. The State of Hawaii says that the first copy of the birth certificate costs $10, and every copy after that costs $4 (ordered at the same time). Now, if we were to limit it to the number of people that voted in 2008, and then got each one of them their own valid Hawaii state birth certificate (131,257,328), that would mean that the copies alone would cost $525,029,318.

    Furthermore, there are 231,229,580 people in the voting age population. So, if we were to furbish every single one of them with their own Hawaii State Birth Certificate (since you do not believe that a reliable fact-checking organization is reliable enough to prove Citizenship), that would cost $924,918,326 in the cost of the birth certificates. You add another 44 cents to the cost (cost of the stamp to mail it), and it would be $1,026,659,341.20. Since we don’t know which voters will vote, and new registrations, or who will drop off the registrations, this is the number that I’ll use.

    Barack Obama spent about $513,557,218. You want candinates to spend somewhere around double the most that anybody has actually spent on any campaign just to prove that they’re eligible to campaign?

  203. avatar
    nc1 July 26, 2010 at 4:13 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Until you learn the difference between a lie and a mistake, no one will take you seriously. It’s absurd to claim that someone would intentionally lie about something in the public record.

    Help me understand your definition of a lie vs. mistake when a politician is involved. Did Obama make a mistake or lie to the public: (7 min)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOmVBbb5nPY

    For those with ADD there is a shorter example (2 min):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UErR7i2onW0&feature=related

  204. avatar
    Black Lion July 26, 2010 at 4:16 pm #

    dunstvangeet: Except for the Document, issued by the State of Hawaii, that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Obama was born in Hawaii. Other than that, you’re right.Actually, our evidence is the document behind the pictures.You can do all these things with the document that was scanned and photographed.Nice strawman. Now, let me put this same strawman upto you. You obviously do not believe that Obama putting his birth certificate out on the internet in both pictures and a scan is not enough. So, you must believe that candinates should furbish the birth certificate to every single voter. The State of Hawaii says that the first copy of the birth certificate costs $10, and every copy after that costs $4 (ordered at the same time). Now, if we were to limit it to the number of people that voted in 2008, and then got each one of them their own valid Hawaii state birth certificate (131,257,328), that would mean that the copies alone would cost $525,029,318.Furthermore, there are 231,229,580 people in the voting age population. So, if we were to furbish every single one of them with their own Hawaii State Birth Certificate (since you do not believe that a reliable fact-checking organization is reliable enough to prove Citizenship), that would cost $924,918,326 in the cost of the birth certificates. You add another 44 cents to the cost (cost of the stamp to mail it), and it would be $1,026,659,341.20. Since we don’t know which voters will vote, and new registrations, or who will drop off the registrations, this is the number that I’ll use.Barack Obama spent about $513,557,218. You want candinates to spend somewhere around double the most that anybody has actually spent on any campaign just to prove that they’re eligible to campaign?

    Be careful, you are going to confuse him with logic and common sense….Then Ron won’t come out and play anymore…like Mario. Also remember this is the same guy that thinks that Obama’s COLB is based off the Janice Okubo original and his so called “analysis” was so pathetic that the Freepers over at FR laughed him off the thread in less than 20 minutes….

  205. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny July 26, 2010 at 4:20 pm #

    Jules: I am a bit surprised that Rickey did not encounter controls at the Swiss border. Switzerland was not a party to the Schengen Agreement in 2002. However, I don’t know what other, less formal arrangements were in place then.

    I went from Belgium to Italy through France and Switzerland in … 1991 and was never checked at any border! Switzerland was a de facto member very early. On the other hand, they kept checking (and stamping) passports, even those of Schengen “partners” at airports for a long time.

    Even today, Switzerland is a bit the odd one out – whereas every other police force in Schengen is very happy to use the right to hot pursuit when criminals flee across the border (unbelievably, this right did not exist during the first five years of checkless borders), the Swiss police are very reluctant to do so – it seems they are afraid of the financial consequences of any accident abroad. I wonder whet Vattel would say about that.

    Schengen put an end to the romantic hot pursuits in boats on Lake Lugano (Campione d’Italia is no longer a refuge for smugglers), but created new problems in the East of Europe. http://geosite.jankrogh.com/borders/bylt/sakaline.htm

  206. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny July 26, 2010 at 4:36 pm #

    PetJake: A 2007 COLB is not an original birth certificate, is
    not a copy of an original birth certificate, and never can be
    used in place of an original birth certificate, to prove anyone’s
    birth in Hawaii.

    Unlike Alice in Wonderland …

  207. avatar
    Jules July 26, 2010 at 4:36 pm #

    dunstvangeet: Furthermore, there are 231,229,580 people in the voting age population.

    I think that figure only includes adults living within the US who are 18 or older. I would not be in that figure, even though I am a US citizen and remain eligible to cast an absentee ballot for federal offices. Will I and each of the several million US citizens living abroad receive Obama’s certificate?

    ]Perhaps Obama can save some money on the distribution of his certificate within the US by only showing it to those who are willing to confirm that they are US citizens and show their own birth certificates: “I’ll show you mine if you show me yours.”

  208. avatar
    nc1 July 26, 2010 at 4:48 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: If you had been skeptical about those first reports, you might not have fallen down the mental rabbit hole.

    I read newspaper articles mentioning: Obama’s foreign birth in Indonesia (Honolulu Advertiser), Hawaii birth in the Queen’s hospital, birth in Kapiolani.
    Kenyan ambassador Ogego mentioned Kenya as Obama’s birthplace…

    The first press-release by Fukino was worded in such way to imply Hawaii birth without saying it explicitly. It got my attention because I thought that this was an attempt by Fukino to help Obama without perjuring herself.

    And of course we cannot ignore the COLB timeline. When the first COLB image was published on Daily Kos, within hours there were comments posted mentioning its deficiencies. If Obama campaign had a legitimate COLB on their hands at that time they could have posted a good quality scan showing the folds and the state seal. They waited two months for improved version to be created and then allowed just two people from FactCheck to see the document.

    Finally we have Tim Adams challenging the official story, the same is true with James Orengo and his statement in the Kenyan Parliament.

    It is not an accident that the original birth certificte is hidden from public – it does not support the official birthplace story, otherwise we would have seen it long time ago.

  209. avatar
    Majority Will July 26, 2010 at 4:57 pm #

    Don’t feed this troll. As if repeating the sam idiotic, nit picky nonsense ad nauseam will magically make it even remotely plausible and relevant.

    Tim Adams . . . [rolls eyes] . . . . guano psychoses abounds.

  210. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny July 26, 2010 at 4:59 pm #

    Jules: only showing it to those who are willing to confirm that they are US citizens and show their own birth certificates: “I’ll show you mine if you show me yours.”

    Orly Taitz probably does not have a valid real birth certificate. So, she will never agree to this.

    In the early 1980s, Jews leaving the Soviet Union had to bring all their personal documentation to the airport, where they were confiscated by the emigration police. Instead, they got an “exit visa” good for leaving the USSR , never to return.

    There was a joke about the documents not being destroyed but being sent to some Central Asian republic for recuperating the paper. To be used in printing Korans.

  211. avatar
    Majority Will July 26, 2010 at 5:00 pm #

    “Don’t feed this troll. As if repeating the sam idiotic . . .

    (Make that “please don’t” and “the same idiotic.”)

    Long day.

  212. avatar
    jamese777 July 26, 2010 at 5:19 pm #

    nc1: I read newspaper articles mentioning: Obama’s foreign birth in Indonesia (Honolulu Advertiser), Hawaii birth in the Queen’s hospital, birth in Kapiolani.Kenyan ambassador Ogego mentioned Kenya as Obama’s birthplace…The first press-release by Fukino was worded in such way to imply Hawaii birth without saying it explicitly. It got my attention because I thought that this was an attempt by Fukino to help Obama without perjuring herself.And of course we cannot ignore the COLB timeline. When the first COLB image was published on Daily Kos, within hours there were comments posted mentioning its deficiencies. If Obama campaign had a legitimate COLB on their hands at that time they could have posted a good quality scan showing the folds and the state seal. They waited two months for improved version to be created and then allowed just two people from FactCheck to see the document.Finally we have Tim Adams challenging the official story, the same is true with James Orengo and his statement in the Kenyan Parliament.It is not an accident that the original birth certificte is hidden from public – it does not support the official birthplace story, otherwise we would have seen it long time ago.

    I still suggest that poor ol’ NC1 go to a law dictionary and look up the term “self-authenticating document.” He obviously doesn’t have a clue. At the bottom of every COLB issued by the state of Hawaii it contains the following statement: “This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding.”

    Janice Okubo, Director of Communications for the Hawaii Department of Health is quoted below by the “Washington Independent” on July 17, 2009: “Ironically, the birther’ movement began in response to Obama’s own efforts to debunk rumors. One year ago this week, the presidential campaign of then-Sen. Barack Obama launched FightTheSmears.com, a web site designed to push back against false rumors about the first African-American presidential nominee. To push back against rumors that he was not born in Hawaii, the campaign reproduced a Certificate of Live Birth from the state’s Health Department. Instead of terminating the conspiracy theories, that inspired new theories — that the certificate had been forged or that even if it hadn’t been forged it was the sort of certificate that could be given to someone born outside of the United States. But the certificate is specific about Obama’s birth in Honolulu, down to the 7:24 p.m. time.

    It’s crazy,’ said Janice Okubo, director of communications for the Hawaii Department of Health. I don’t think anything is ever going to satisfy them.’”

    Okubo, who said that she gets weekly questions from Obama Birthers’ that are more like threats,’ explained that the Certificate of Live Birth reproduced by Obama’s campaign should have debunked the conspiracy theories. If you were born in Bali, for example,’ Okubo explained, ‘you could get a certificate from the state of Hawaii saying you were born in Bali. You could not get a certificate saying you were born in Honolulu. The state has to verify a fact like that for it to appear on the certificate. But it’s become very clear that it doesn’t matter what I say. The people who are questioning this bring up all these implausible scenarios. What if the physician lied? What if the state lied? It’s just become an urban legend at this point.’” End of excerpt.

    What is obvious is that the state of Hawaii has every intention of standing behind the Obama COLB should any Obama ineligibility lawsuit ever make it to an actual trial but thus far, in 71 attempts, none has made it to trial. I don’t expect that to change since birthers’ attorneys are too inept to present a plaintiff with standing to sue.
    “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.”–Albert Einstein

  213. avatar
    Jules July 26, 2010 at 5:25 pm #

    Paul Pieniezny:
    Orly Taitz probably does not have a valid real birth certificate. So, she will never agree to this.In the early 1980s, Jews leaving the Soviet Union had to bring all their personal documentation to the airport, where they were confiscated by the emigration police. Instead, they got an “exit visa” good for leaving the USSR , never to return.There was a joke about the documents not being destroyed but being sent to some Central Asian republic for recuperating the paper. To be used in printing Korans.

    I don’t know if the authorities in Moldova today would be able to issue a new certificate to Taitz. (By the way, if Orly Taitz is reading this comment and misses Moldova, she should click here to get her fill of the culture of Moldova.)

    Regardless of whether or not Taitz gets her hands on Obama’s certificate, she will react to being given any document by alleging fraud (and she might throw in an accusation of treason for good luck).

  214. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 26, 2010 at 7:03 pm #

    nc1: I read newspaper articles mentioning…Finally we have Tim Adams

    Like I said, if you had exercised some healthy skepticism, you might not have fallen down the mental rabbit hole.

  215. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 26, 2010 at 7:09 pm #

    nc1:

    Dr. Conspiracy: Until you learn the difference between a lie and a mistake, no one will take you seriously. It’s absurd to claim that someone would intentionally lie about something in the public record.

    Help me understand your definition of a lie vs. mistake when a politician is involved. Did Obama make a mistake or lie to the public: (7 min)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOmVBbb5nPY

    For those with ADD there is a shorter example (2 min):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UErR7i2onW0&feature=related

    And if when confronted you change the subject, no one will respect you either.

  216. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 26, 2010 at 11:20 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Help me understand your definition of a lie vs. mistake when a politician is involved.Did Obama make a mistake or lie to the public: (7 min)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOmVBbb5nPYFor those with ADD there is a shorter example (2 min):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UErR7i2onW0&feature=related

    And if when confronted you change the subject, no one will respect you either.

    No one does respect him anyway. He’s done this same thing over at other sites, its just repeat the same discredited nonsense.

  217. avatar
    nc1 July 27, 2010 at 4:01 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Help me understand your definition of a lie vs. mistake when a politician is involved. Did Obama make a mistake or lie to the public: (7 min)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOmVBbb5nPYFor those with ADD there is a shorter example (2 min):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UErR7i2onW0&feature=related

    And if when confronted you change the subject, no one will respect you either.

    I did not change the subject. I simply asked you to define difference between a lie and a mistake in a public speech given by a politician using Obama as an example.
    Had you answered my question I would have been in a better position to understand your statement about Gov. Lingle.

  218. avatar
    nc1 July 27, 2010 at 4:26 am #

    jamese777: I still suggest that poor ol’ NC1 go to a law dictionary and look up the term “self-authenticating document.” He obviously doesn’t have a clue. At the bottom of every COLB issued by the state of Hawaii it contains the following statement: “This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding.”Janice Okubo, Director of Communications for the Hawaii Department of Health is quoted below by the “Washington Independent” on July 17, 2009: “Ironically, the birther’ movement began in response to Obama’s own efforts to debunk rumors. One year ago this week, the presidential campaign of then-Sen. Barack Obama launched FightTheSmears.com, a web site designed to push back against false rumors about the first African-American presidential nominee. To push back against rumors that he was not born in Hawaii, the campaign reproduced a Certificate of Live Birth from the state’s Health Department. Instead of terminating the conspiracy theories, that inspired new theories — that the certificate had been forged or that even if it hadn’t been forged it was the sort of certificate that could be given to someone born outside of the United States. But the certificate is specific about Obama’s birth in Honolulu, down to the 7:24 p.m. time.It’s crazy,’ said Janice Okubo, director of communications for the Hawaii Department of Health. I don’t think anything is ever going to satisfy them.’”Okubo, who said that she gets weekly questions from Obama Birthers’ that are more like threats,’ explained that the Certificate of Live Birth reproduced by Obama’s campaign should have debunked the conspiracy theories. If you were born in Bali, for example,’ Okubo explained, ‘you could get a certificate from the state of Hawaii saying you were born in Bali. You could not get a certificate saying you were born in Honolulu. The state has to verify a fact like that for it to appear on the certificate. But it’s become very clear that it doesn’t matter what I say. The people who are questioning this bring up all these implausible scenarios. What if the physician lied? What if the state lied? It’s just become an urban legend at this point.’” End of excerpt.What is obvious is that the state of Hawaii has every intention of standing behind the Obama COLB should any Obama ineligibility lawsuit ever make it to an actual trial but thus far, in 71 attempts, none has made it to trial. I don’t expect that to change since birthers’ attorneys are too inept to present a plaintiff with standing to sue.“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.”–Albert Einstein

    Poor old nc1 did not get the memo about any court receiving the COLB document from Obama. I would like to see Obama sending the COLB to a court dealing with the eligibility issue. Until it happens, please spare me ramblings about “self-authenticating document”. An image posted on a private web site is not equivalent to a physical document submitted to a court.

    Okubo and her ilk could have answered a simple Yes/No question: Did the Hawaii DoH issue COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007? They have refused to do so.
    Her opinion about birthers is irrelevant.

  219. avatar
    bovril July 27, 2010 at 6:21 am #

    Poor Old NC1,

    President Obama, remains President Obama and ther is nothing you can do about it until 2012.

    So, since this is SOOOOOO important to YOU (and no one else with 3 functional neurons).

    I suggest you raise your lardy arse out of the Barcalounger, get involved in grown up, big boy trousers politics and attempt to find a politician who meets your personal and vatuous requirements and then try and get them in the running for the Presidency.

    Best of luck with that as ANY politician acceptable to you will fare worse than Orly Taitz in California.

  220. avatar
    bovril July 27, 2010 at 6:27 am #

    Oh, I was channeling probably the only candidate that would meet your requirements, Good Ole Sarah, so I thought I’d better make up a new “Shakespeare” word for the occassion,……..Vacuous + Fatuous = Vatuous………

  221. avatar
    misha July 27, 2010 at 6:30 am #

    bovril: Oh, I was channeling probably the only candidate that would meet your requirements, Good Ole Sarah, so I thought I’d better make up a new “Shakespeare” word for the occassion,……..Vacuous + Fatuous = Vatuous………

    (bada-bing)

  222. avatar
    misha July 27, 2010 at 6:32 am #

    bovril: So, since this is SOOOOOO important to YOU (and no one else with 3 functional neurons).

    I thought it was two.

  223. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny July 27, 2010 at 7:21 am #

    Jules: I don’t know if the authorities in Moldova today would be able to issue a new certificate to Taitz.

    I have enough experience with birth certificates from Russia and the Ukraine to presume the answer is yes. Somewhere in an archive building in Kishinev/Chisinau there must be a document attesting to her birth. There are some problems of course, since Moldavian is now written in Latin characters and no longer in Cyrillic (except in Transdnyestria) and Orly herself does not seem to know whether her name was Averbuch or Auerbuch. And then there are some silly civil servants who translate personal names (like the Ukrainian administration which translated the Russian family name Chemodanov into Bagazhnik, and yes this really happened). Perhaps Orly’s maiden name was translated into the Romanian equivalent of Oatsbook, which is why she prefers Auerbuch.

    Another question altogether is whether according to the Orly-Polarik rules of evidence an abstract of a communist document seasoned for forty years in a pork leather cupboard drawer marked “Yids” is a valid birth certificate. The answer is obvious.

    When the Encyclopedia Dramatica contains more truth about Orly Taitz than Wikipedia (although they too do not connect her stay in Romania to her dentist degree) you know the world is coming to an end. http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Orly_Taitz

  224. avatar
    Ellid July 27, 2010 at 9:11 am #

    nc1:
    I read newspaper articles mentioning: Obama’s foreign birth in Indonesia (Honolulu Advertiser),Hawaii birth in the Queen’s hospital, birth in Kapiolani.
    Kenyan ambassador Ogego mentioned Kenya as Obama’s birthplace…The first press-release by Fukino was worded in such way to imply Hawaii birth without saying it explicitly.It got my attention because I thought that this was an attempt by Fukino to help Obama without perjuring herself.And of course we cannot ignore the COLB timeline. When the first COLB image was published on Daily Kos, within hours there were comments posted mentioning its deficiencies.If Obama campaign had a legitimate COLB on their hands at that time they could have posted a good quality scan showing the folds and the state seal. They waited two months for improved version to be created and then allowed just two people from FactCheck to see the document.Finally we have Tim Adams challenging the official story, the same is true with James Orengo and his statement in the Kenyan Parliament.It is not an accident that the original birth certificte is hidden from public – it does not support the official birthplace story, otherwise we would have seen it long time ago.

    Asked and answered a year ago on the Independent. Why won’t you admit that you already know the answers to your questions? And why won’t you respond to any of my posts? Scared of outing yourself as a dear and close friend of Orly Taitz, old sport?

  225. avatar
    Majority Will July 27, 2010 at 10:30 am #

    nc1:

    Her opinion about birthers is irrelevant.

    Not nearly as irrelevant as your incessant rambling.

  226. avatar
    Majority Will July 27, 2010 at 10:32 am #

    nc1:
    And if when confronted you change the subject, no one will respect you either.I did not change the subject.I simply asked you to define difference between a lie and a mistake in a public speech given by a politician using Obama as an example.
    Had you answered my question I would have been in a better position to understand your statement about Gov. Lingle.

    “I’m telling you there’s an enemy that would like to attack America, Americans, again. There just is. That’s the reality of the world. And I wish him all the very best.” –George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Jan. 12, 2009

    Is this a misstatement or is George supporting terrorists?

  227. avatar
    misha July 27, 2010 at 10:43 am #

    Majority Will: Is this a misstatement or is George supporting terrorists?

    ”There are some who feel like — that the conditions are such that they can attack us there. My answer is, bring them on.”

    GW Bush, July 2, 2003

  228. avatar
    Majority Will July 27, 2010 at 11:09 am #

    misha:
    ”There are some who feel like — that the conditions are such that they can attack us there. My answer is, bring them on.”GW Bush, July 2, 2003

    “I couldn’t imagine somebody like Osama bin Laden understanding the joy of Hanukkah.” — GWB at a White House menorah lighting ceremony, Washington, D.C., Dec. 10, 2001

  229. avatar
    Ellid July 27, 2010 at 12:07 pm #

    Majority Will:
    “I couldn’t imagine somebody like Osama bin Laden understanding the joy of Hanukkah.” — GWB at a White House menorah lighting ceremony, Washington, D.C., Dec. 10, 2001

    And George W. Bush, born-again Baptist, understands the joy of Hanukkah HOW? Wasn’t this the man who sent out invitations for a Hanukkah reception bearing images of the White House Christmas tree?

  230. avatar
    BatGuano July 27, 2010 at 12:07 pm #

    nc1: Okubo and her ilk could have answered a simple Yes/No question: Did the Hawaii DoH issue COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007? They have refused to do so.
    Her opinion about birthers is irrelevant.

    nc1. you contend that obama’s grandmother fraudulently registered his birth in hawaii ( thus explaining the newspaper accounts ) while he and the parents were taking a 20 day ship voyage back from kenya and there would be no physical evidence of a child existing until weeks after the registration. then you contend that instead of simply requesting a COLB from the hawaiian DoH ( since he would have been registered ) obama had a forgery made.

    correct ?

  231. avatar
    Majority Will July 27, 2010 at 12:37 pm #

    Ellid:
    And George W. Bush, born-again Baptist, understands the joy of Hanukkah HOW?Wasn’t this the man who sent out invitations for a Hanukkah reception bearing images of the White House Christmas tree?

    Merry Hanukkah from the White House!

    The president and the first lady invited leaders of America’s Jewish community for a Hanukkah reception at the White House next month – but raised more than a few eyebrows by putting a picture of a Christmas tree on the invitation.

    The message reads that the couple “requests the pleasure of your company at a Hanukkah reception,” written beneath an image of a Clydesdale horse hauling a Christmas fir along the snow-dappled drive to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

    And, no, it is not a Hanukkah bush. A close look at the wagon reveals the message “White House Christmas Tree 2008.”

    In the background, the White House windows are festooned with Christmas wreaths.
    The incongruity of the message did not go unnoticed.

    “It’s absolutely bizarre to receive an invite to the White House for Hanukkah in a Christmas format,” said one person who was invited. “They should have consulted with their chief of protocol before sending this out. This belongs right in the ‘Weird But True’ column.”

    Jewish community leader Isaac Abraham of Brooklyn had a simpler explanation.
    “It’s obvious what’s going on here: The Christmas tree is being taken out of the White House and the menorah is being brought in the back,” he quipped.

    When reached for comment, Laura Bush’s spokeswoman, Sally McDonough, said the White House usually prints separate cards, but in the waning days of the presidency, there had been an oversight.
    “Mrs. Bush is apologetic,” she said. “It is something that just slipped through the cracks.”

    Source: nypost.com

    “It’ll be hard to articulate.” -George W. Bush, anticipating how he’ll feel upon assuming the presidency, Jan. 2001

  232. avatar
    misha July 27, 2010 at 1:07 pm #

    Majority Will “It’ll be hard to articulate.” -George W. Bush, anticipating how he’ll feel upon assuming the presidency, Jan. 2001

    And he proved it by mumbling most of the time.

  233. avatar
    Ellid July 27, 2010 at 2:47 pm #

    misha:
    And he proved it by mumbling most of the time.

    I think he misunderestimated the job.

  234. avatar
    Majority Will July 27, 2010 at 3:12 pm #

    Ellid:
    I think he misunderestimated the job.

    But Bush’s Presidential Library will be filled with Scratch and Sniff and Pop Up books and cots for nap time.

  235. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 27, 2010 at 3:34 pm #

    nc1

    Dr. Conspiracy: Help me understand your definition of a lie vs. mistake when a politician is involved. Did Obama make a mistake or lie to the public: (7 min)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOmVBbb5nPYFor those with ADD there is a shorter example (2 min):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UErR7i2onW0&feature=related

    And if when confronted you change the subject, no one will respect you either.

    I did not change the subject. I simply asked you to define difference between a lie and a mistake in a public speech given by a politician using Obama as an example.
    Had you answered my question I would have been in a better position to understand your statement about Gov. Lingle.

    A lie is an intentional act of deception. Do I think Obama intentionally misquoted Justice Brandeis? Of course not. Do I think Obama intentionally made a campaign promise that he had no intention of keeping? No one can say what was in his mind at the time. So no, I think the YouTube video calling these things a cheap smear and itself a lie, an attempt to deceive.

    Now back to the question: do you seriously believe that Governor Lingle intentionally misstated the contents of the Press Release from the Department of Health, something that was on the DOH web site for everybody in the world to see? Or is it more likely that a question totally out of the blue on a radio interview resulted in her confusing her knowledge of where Obama was born from other sources (the Kapi’Olani celebration she attended in February) in stead of the press release?

    I think calling this a lie is an irresponsible smear, an attempt to deceive, and a lie.

  236. avatar
    jamese777 July 27, 2010 at 3:35 pm #

    nc1: Poor old nc1 did not get the memo about any court receiving the COLB document from Obama. I would like to see Obama sending the COLB to a court dealing with the eligibility issue. Until it happens, please spare me ramblings about “self-authenticating document”. An image posted on a private web site is not equivalent to a physical document submitted to a court. Okubo and her ilk could have answered a simple Yes/No question: Did the Hawaii DoH issue COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007? They have refused to do so.Her opinion about birthers is irrelevant.

    And how do you know that copies of Obama’s COLB have not been submitted with the legal briefs of Department of Justice Attorneys in Obama Eligibility Lawsuits? Since every one of 71 Obama eligibility lawsuits has been dismissed. We don’t know that the dismissal briefs which defendants’ attorneys have submitted don’t include a nice new copy of an Obama Hawaii COLB.
    It would make no sense for defense attorneys not to submit a certified copy of Obama’s COLB rather than a copy of a scanned internet image from a website. I’m certain that the President would give his permission for his own attorneys to file a copy of his COLB obtained from the state of Hawaii.
    Since Birther attorneys are too inept to present a plaintiff with legal standing to sue in any of these lawsuits, we’ll probably never know.
    There are some first rate constitutional law firms that take up conservative issues. These firms have argued cases before the US Supreme Court and WON on conservative issues like partial birth abortion, gun control and affirmative action. Some of the better known of these firms and legal organizations are: The Center for Individual RIghts, The Washington Legal Foundation, The American Center for Law and Justice, The Landmark Legal Foundation, Judicial Watch, The Federalist Society for Law and Public Policy Studies, The Institute for Justice, The Pacific Legal Foundation and the Alliance Defense Fund, just to name a few.
    It is very telling that none of the major conservative constitutional law entities has gone anywhere NEAR a birther lawsuit. They have not even filed an amicus brief in support of any of these frivolous filings. These are lawyers who know how to find a plaintiff with standing and these are lawyers who know how to present a legal argument without getting sanctioned by a judge.

    “A spurious claim questioning the President’s constitutional legitimacy may be protected by the First Amendment, but a Court’s placement of its imprimatur upon a claim that is so lacking in factual support that it is frivolous would undoubtedly disserve the public interest.”
    –US Federal District Court Judge for the Middle District of Georgia Clay Land in dismissing “Rhodes v MacDonald” September 16, 2009 (Captain Connie Rhodes didn’t want to go to Iraq until Obama proved he was a natural born citizen. She lost.)

  237. avatar
    misha July 27, 2010 at 3:57 pm #

    Majority Will: But Bush’s Presidential Library will be filled with Scratch and Sniff and Pop Up books and cots for nap time.

    Bush’s autobiography is a pop-up book. He’s having his book signings around the country at Toys R Us.

  238. avatar
    SluggoJD July 27, 2010 at 3:59 pm #

    Majority Will:
    But Bush’s Presidential Library will be filled with Scratch and Sniff and Pop Up books and cots for nap time.

    And free copies of My Pet Goat for all adult visitors.

  239. avatar
    bob July 27, 2010 at 4:11 pm #

    jamese777: And how do you know that copies of Obama’s COLB have not been submitted with the legal briefs of Department of Justice Attorneys in Obama Eligibility Lawsuits?

    We know that for three reasons: Motions to dismiss do not include evidence (they would motions for summary judgment if they did). Moreover, the basis of most of these dismissals has been lack of standing; the COLB doesn’t address the standing issue. But, more importantly, many of the dismissal motions are online, and none of those have included the COLB.

    The COLB, ultimately, is irrelevant. Hawaii’s index data says Obama was born in Hawaii. There is no way for the index data to state this and not be true, unless someone wishes to accuse either state workers or Obama’s family of fraud. Without any actual of evidence of fraud, mere accusation and speculation is not a reasonable basis for doubt.

  240. avatar
    jamese777 July 27, 2010 at 6:35 pm #

    Thanks for the education and the correction! I was obviously incorrectly assuming that the defense could include a vital record with their dismissal motion.
    It was obvious from the opinion in Ankeny v The Governor of Indiana that plaintiffs had referenced factcheck.org, the Rocky Mountain News and other sources in their briefs so I (incorrectly) assumed that defendants might do the same thing.
    Here’s what I mean, the following is from the Indiana Court of Appeals’ decision in Ankeny v The Governor of Indiana (the court ruled that two American parents are not required to be a natural born citizen).
    “The bases of the Plaintiffs’ arguments come from such sources as FactCheck.org, The Rocky Mountain News, an eighteenth century treatise by Emmerich de Vattel titled “The Law of Nations,” and various citations to nineteenth century congressional debate. For the reasons stated below, we hold that the Plaintiffs’ arguments fail to state a claim upon which relief can be granted, and that therefore the trial court did not err in dismissing the Plaintiffs’ complaint.”–Indiana Court of Appeals, November 12, 2009

    Do you really think that Hawaii’s Index Data on an Obama vital record is all the evidence that a Court would ever require and not an actual copy of a certified vital record?

  241. avatar
    bob July 27, 2010 at 7:24 pm #

    jamese777: Do you really think that Hawaii’s Index Data on an Obama vital record is all the evidence that a Court would ever require and not an actual copy of a certified vital record?

    The parties can submit whatever evidence they want (subject to the rules of evidence, of course). While it would certainly be possible to submit the index data to the court, it is easier (due to the evidentiary hoops) to submit the COLB . So I suspect the COLB is what would end up in the court’s file. I reference the index data only to short-circuit any argument that the image of the COLB is not accurate.

    As to Ankeny, I’ve never seen their complaint. But from their opposition, as well as the courts’ rulings, I infer the references to fackcheck, etc. were in their original complaint. I’m not sure why the appeals court went out of its way to mention the bases of their arguments, but it is clear the court understand they were raising a two-citizen-parent argument, and then explained why that argument failed.

  242. avatar
    Expelliarmus July 27, 2010 at 8:43 pm #

    jamese777: Do you really think that Hawaii’s Index Data on an Obama vital record is all the evidence that a Court would ever require and not an actual copy of a certified vital record?

    A court would require a certified abstract of the data — that is, the same thing we’ve seen on the COLB.

    The existence of the index data is proof that a certified abstract could be issue at any time — the FACT that there is a record of Obama’s birth in the DOH database means that upon a proper application, the DOH must issue a COLB. So for ordinary people (general public), the presence of the index data is enough to know that if Obama were ever called upon to produce requisite documentation in court, he easily could produce it.

  243. avatar
    nc1 July 28, 2010 at 4:33 am #

    BatGuano: nc1. you contend that obama’s grandmother fraudulently registered his birth in hawaii ( thus explaining the newspaper accounts ) while he and the parents were taking a 20 day ship voyage back from kenya and there would be no physical evidence of a child existing until weeks after the registration. then you contend that instead of simply requesting a COLB from the hawaiian DoH ( since he would have been registered ) obama had a forgery made.correct ?

    I don’t know where Obama was born. There are multiple sources mentioning birth in Kenya. The boat scenario was an answer to Dr. Misha who claimed that the Kenyan birth scenario was impossible because the airfare was very expensive and such journey would have been very inconvenient.

    If Obama was born in Hawaii the DoH would have confirmed the issuing of COLB to him. There would be no need for playing games with the public. In addition, I don’t think that the first published image of his COLB would have been any different from other COLB images posted on the web (state seal and the second fold would have been visible to the naked eye).

    Finally the answer to your question: Last summer a blogger (Terri K) asked the DoH for a copy of Amended birth certificate belonging to Obama. If such thing did not exist the proper answer under the Hawaii UIPA law would have been to say so. However, the DoH replied that the requestor was not eligible under law to receive a copy, implicitly confirming its existence. Perhaps Dr. C has saved this email correspondence, it was an interesting read on Donofrio’s web site.

    I believe that Obama could obtain a legitimate COLB from the DoH, but it would contain the word Amended – that is why he does not want to publish it. Such a document would open a can of worms for him – it is easier to hide behind a forgery. All you need is a JOURNOLIST to cover for you in the media.

  244. avatar
    nc1 July 28, 2010 at 5:45 am #

    nc1

    Dr. Conspiracy: And if when confronted you change the subject, no one will respect you either.I did not change the subject. I simply asked you to define difference between a lie and a mistake in a public speech given by a politician using Obama as an example.Had you answered my question I would have been in a better position to understand your statement about Gov. Lingle.

    A lie is an intentional act of deception. Do I think Obama intentionally misquoted Justice Brandeis? Of course not. Do I think Obama intentionally made a campaign promise that he had no intention of keeping? No one can say what was in his mind at the time. So no, I think the YouTube video calling these things a cheap smear and itself a lie, an attempt to deceive.Now back to the question: do you seriously believe that Governor Lingle intentionally misstated the contents of the Press Release from the Department of Health, something that was on the DOH web site for everybody in the world to see? Or is it more likely that a question totally out of the blue on a radio interview resulted in her confusing her knowledge of where Obama was born from other sources (the Kapi’Olani celebration she attended in February) in stead of the press release? I think calling this a lie is an irresponsible smear, an attempt to deceive, and a lie.

    Thanks for clarifying your position on Obama’s video. He did not lie to the public in order to get votes, right? One has to be a real hard core Obama supporter to have such an opinion. I have a better understanding of your worldview.

    You can say whatever you want abut Lingle’s statement – I am entitled to my opinion. I am not aware that she made a retraction of her statement. Now we have a situation where Obama supporters spread the information that Gov. Lingle confirmed the Kapiolani hospital birth.
    She has a responsibility to make truthful statements to the public – at least someone from her staff could have told her that the statement was wrong and they should have corrected it.

    Lingle’s comment was a bit during a local radio interview, heard by a few people. Not being in print, there is no place to correct the statement. Sometimes those correctly arguing that Obama was born in Hawaii get some of their facts wrong. Just being right doesn’t insure the argument is sound. That’s why sites like this make the effort to avoid unfounded claims and correct the record when we err.

  245. avatar
    AnotherBird July 28, 2010 at 6:02 am #

    nc1:
    Now we have a situation where Obama supporters spread the information that Gov. Lingle confirmed the Kapiolani hospital birth.

    A chicken is a chicken no matter how you attempt to dress it up or distract someone from looking at a check. Yes, everyone is allowed to their opinion, but they loss respect when they attempt to distract from the truth.

    Two documents were released from the governor’s office confirming that Obama was born in Hawaii. This is determined by the existence of the Gov. Lingle’s name clearly on the letter head. You can continue to attempt to murky the question, but the truth is obvious that Gov. Lingle was fully aware of the DOH’s response to the questions about Obama’s birth.

  246. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 28, 2010 at 7:48 am #

    nc1: I don’t know where Obama was born. … I believe that Obama could obtain a legitimate COLB from the DoH, but it would contain the word Amended.

    How can you believe that Obama has an amended Certificate of Live Birth in Hawaii if you don’t know where he was born?

  247. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 28, 2010 at 8:06 am #

    bob: As to Ankeny, I’ve never seen their complaint. But from their opposition, as well as the courts’ rulings, I infer the references to fackcheck, etc. were in their original complaint. I’m not sure why the appeals court went out of its way to mention the bases of their arguments, but it is clear the court understand they were raising a two-citizen-parent argument, and then explained why that argument failed.

    FactCheck and the Rocky Mountain News both state that Obama was born with British citizenship, the latter mistakenly that he still had it.

  248. avatar
    bob July 28, 2010 at 10:26 am #

    nc1:There are multiple sources mentioning birth in Kenya.

    None competent, or with personal knowledge.

    If Obama was born in Hawaii the DoH would have confirmed the issuing of COLB to him.

    The DoH has unambiguously said Obama was born in Hawaii; its index data also verifies this. That the DoH has not used the magic words that would please you is your problem, not Obama’s.

  249. avatar
    bob July 28, 2010 at 10:32 am #

    nc1: Last summer a blogger (Terri K) asked the DoH for a copy of Amended birth certificate belonging to Obama. If such thing did not exist the proper answer under the Hawaii UIPA law would have been to say so.

    “Proper”? Hardly. That’s how you chose to read UIPA, but there’s no evidence that’s how Hawaii actually reads the UIPA. If disclosure of the existance of a document is not required under the UIPA, merely asking the converse (verification of the nonexistance) would also be exempt under the UIPA.

  250. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 28, 2010 at 10:33 am #

    bob: None competent, or with personal knowledge.The DoH has unambiguously said Obama was born in Hawaii; its index data also verifies this. That the DoH has not used the magic words that would please you is your problem, not Obama’s.

    If DOH released a statement on their website saying that they were the ones who gave Obama his COLB, NC1 and others would still be doubting that it came from DOH, that the person who released it didn’t really work for DOH and somehow a hacker put up the press release. Or that Obama and the Feds forced the DOH to lie

  251. avatar
    BatGuano July 28, 2010 at 10:48 am #

    nc1:
    .The boat scenario was an answer to Dr. Misha who claimed that the Kenyan birth scenario was impossible because the airfare was very expensive and such journey would have been very inconvenient.

    as would a ship voyage. in both these scenarios baby obama and parents could not have arrived in hawaii from kenya till after the birth was registered in hawaii.

  252. avatar
    BatGuano July 28, 2010 at 11:00 am #

    nc1:
    Finally the answer to your question: Last summer a blogger (Terri K) asked the DoH for a copy of Amended birth certificate belonging to Obama.If such thing did not exist the proper answer under the Hawaii UIPA law would have been to say so. However, the DoH replied that the requestor was not eligible under law to receive a copy, implicitly confirming its existence.

    ….and if terri k had requested a copy of a birth certificate ( amendment be damned ) she would have gotten the same reply. would that implicitly confirm the existence of a COLB without an amendment ?

  253. avatar
    richCares July 28, 2010 at 11:25 am #

    nc1 has a severe learning ability, anwersing him or giving guidance to him does not have any effect. That probably means he is a troll, so don’t feed him.

  254. avatar
    Sef July 28, 2010 at 11:38 am #

    BatGuano:
    as would a ship voyage. in both these scenarios baby obama and parents could not have arrived in hawaii from kenya till after the birth was registered in hawaii.

    Why do people in the “reality community” continually ignore the only realistic scenario. He was born in Kenya & then zipped back to Honolulu in a Tardis (the Master’s, not the Doctor’s) appearing at 7:24 on 8/4/61. His mother would have plenty of time to register him properly with no one the wiser. Makes sense to me.

  255. avatar
    Majority Will July 28, 2010 at 11:44 am #

    richCares: nc1 has a severe learning ability, anwersing him or giving guidance to him does not have any effect. That probably means he is a troll, so don’t feed him.

    There’s no probably about it. And there can be no reasoning when unmitigated hatred is the foundation of every pointless, baseless, speculative post. The secondary motivation for some birthers seems to be desperation for attention. Hence, the repetitive posting of slightly reworded, groundless and debunked theories. OMG. Someone in Africa somewhere may have uttered Kenya and Obama in the same sentence and that’s birther speak for solid evidence of a vast, super secret, nearly fifty years old conspiracy involving tens of thousands of people in foreign and domestic governments, the mainstream media and a super secret army of paid followers who maintain this awesome cover up.

  256. avatar
    Majority Will July 28, 2010 at 11:48 am #

    Sef:
    Why do people in the “reality community” continually ignore the only realistic scenario.He was born in Kenya & then zipped back to Honolulu in a Tardis (the Master’s, not the Doctor’s) appearing at 7:24 on 8/4/61. His mother would have plenty of time to register him properly with no one the wiser. Makes sense to me.

    Interesting theory. I always thought the keys were transparent aluminum and dilithium crystals.

  257. avatar
    Sef July 28, 2010 at 11:54 am #

    Majority Will:
    Interesting theory. I always thought the keys were transparent aluminum and dilithium crystals.

    And has absolutely the same validity as any of the birther theories.

  258. avatar
    Rickey July 28, 2010 at 11:55 am #

    nc1:
    The boat scenario was an answer to Dr. Misha who claimed that the Kenyan birth scenario was impossible because the airfare was very expensive and such journey would have been very inconvenient.

    And you somehow believe that traveling by sea would have been less expensive and more convenient?

  259. avatar
    misha July 28, 2010 at 11:55 am #

    My wife’s father made a career as a captain in the Republic of China navy. When he retired, he worked as a freighter captain.

    I told her about the speculation of a steamship. She was laughing. That trip would have taken one month, on several steamship lines – each way. And it would have been far more expensive than air travel.

    This gets crazier by the week.

  260. avatar
    richCares July 28, 2010 at 12:00 pm #

    “…then zipped back to Honolulu in a Tardis…”
    .
    No way, article 7 paragraph 14 of the Tardis manual states “…cannot be used to alter birth locations”, that leaves this scenario out. The only vehicle fast enough to accomplish this would be the ICBM, though the landing would have been rough. The ocean voyage could have worked during the “Flood”, he could have been Noah’s passanger. But most likely, he was born in Hawaii.

  261. avatar
    Sef July 28, 2010 at 12:02 pm #

    richCares: “…then zipped back to Honolulu in a Tardis…”
    .
    No way, article 7 paragraph 14 of the Tardis manualstates “…cannot be used to alter birth locations”, that leaves this scenario out. The only vehicle fast enough to accomplish this would be the ICBM, though the landing would have been rough. The ocean voyage could have worked during the “Flood”,he could have been Noah’s passanger. But most likely, he was born in Hawaii.

    But the Master is known for not following the rules.

  262. avatar
    misha July 28, 2010 at 12:05 pm #

    richCares: But most likely, he was born in Hawaii.

    Most likely?! He WAS born on Mars, in a manger.

  263. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 28, 2010 at 12:23 pm #

    richCares: “…then zipped back to Honolulu in a Tardis…”.No way, article 7 paragraph 14 of the Tardis manual states “…cannot be used to alter birth locations”, that leaves this scenario out. The only vehicle fast enough to accomplish this would be the ICBM, though the landing would have been rough. The ocean voyage could have worked during the “Flood”, he could have been Noah’s passanger. But most likely, he was born in Hawaii.

    Obama’s family rode the ICBM Slim Pickens style all the way back to Hawaii

  264. avatar
    Majority Will July 28, 2010 at 12:32 pm #

    richCares: The only vehicle fast enough to accomplish this would be the ICBM, though the landing would have been rough.

    What landing? You’ll need to jump off well ahead of the air burst! And keep your eyes closed.

  265. avatar
    PetJake July 28, 2010 at 1:10 pm #

    dunstvangeet
    Except for the Document, issued by the State of Hawaii, that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Obama was born in Hawaii.

    .

    Hawaii released no such document, Hawaii has never released any documentation that proves Obama was physically born anywhere in Hawaii.
    .

    Other than that, you’re right.
    Actually, our evidence is the document behind the pictures.

    .

    What “document” behind what “pictures?” I don’t know what you mean, but I do know that Hawaii has never produced any document proving that Obama was physically born anywhere in Hawaii.

    .

    You can do all these things with the document that was scanned and photographed.

    .

    Again, whatever document you are talking about; scanned image, photograph, or Etch-a-Sketch, it is not a valid proof of anything. It is nonsense to think otherwise. Hawaii has never provided any valid proof that Obama was physically born anywhere in Hawaii, and neither has Obama. Fukino’s sound bites are not valid proof, either.
    .

    Now, let me put this same strawman upto you.You obviously do not believe that Obama putting his birth certificate out on the internet in both pictures and a scan is not enough.
    .

    What “birth certificate?” Obama has never made his birth certificate available for public inspection. The public has never seen his birth certificate.
    .

    I know that the people working for Obama, and the people supporting Obama, would like the public to very much believe what you said, but they do not speak me, or for the 44% of Americans who Strongly Disapprove of Obama, or for the Constitution itself.
    .
    When Obama stops trying to prevent the release of his original birth certificate that Kapiolani Hospital would have filled out, only then will he “do enough.”
    .

    But, for the past two years, he has done nothing but refuse to do so, spending $1.5 million to fight it rather than spending $20 to release it.
    .
    If you are going to believe that an image is the same thing as a Government-certified paper birth certificate, then you would also believe that one printed on toilet paper is also just as valid.
    .
    So, you must believe that candinates should furbish the birth certificate to every single voter.The State of Hawaii says that the first copy of the birth certificate costs $10, and every copy after that costs $4 (ordered at the same time).

    .
    No need for hyperbole, here. Obama should do what Chuck Schumer said, which was that “Presidential candidates should make all of their records public.” All Obama has to do is ask Hawaii to release his actual vital records for inspection and analysis by a handful of people, at most.
    .


    Now, if we were to limit it to the number of people that voted in 2008

    .
    The Black Panthers, ACORN, and media did that already. Not for Obama, though.
    .
    …since you do not believe that a reliable fact-checking organization is reliable enough to prove Citizenship
    .
    Who? Factcheck? ROTFLOL! They are funded by the Annenburg Foundation, Obama’s biggest campaign contributor. Factcheck is joined at the hip to Obama. They are a “reliable” stooge for Obama, however.
    .
    Since we don’t know which voters will vote
    .
    Oh, but we do know which voters will vote – and vote repeatedly: Daffy Duck. Elmer Fudd. Mickey Mouse. Big Bird. Mona Lisa. The 1919 Chicago White Socks, and the residents of Louisiana State Penitentiary.
    .
    Barack Obama spent about $513,557,218.You want candinates to spend somewhere around double the most that anybody has actually spent on any campaign just to prove that they’re eligible to campaign?
    .
    Nope. Just $20 per Presidential candidate.
    .

  266. avatar
    BatGuano July 28, 2010 at 1:24 pm #

    PetJake: When Obama stops trying to prevent the release of his original birth certificate that Kapiolani Hospital would have filled out, only then will he “do enough.”

    who had legal access to these records but was prevented ? what exact did obama do to accomplish this ? how much did this action cost ?

  267. avatar
    jamese777 July 28, 2010 at 1:27 pm #

    nc1: Thanks for clarifying your position on Obama’s video. He did not lie to the public in order to get votes, right? One has to be a real hard core Obama supporter to have such an opinion. I have a better understanding of your worldview.You can say whatever you want abut Lingle’s statement – I am entitled to my opinion. I am not aware that she made a retraction of her statement. Now we have a situation where Obama supporters spread the information that Gov. Lingle confirmed the Kapiolani hospital birth.She has a responsibility to make truthful statements to the public – at least someone from her staff could have told her that the statement was wrong and they should have corrected it.

    Lingle’s comment was a bit during a local radio interview, heard by a few people. Not being in print, there is no place to correct the statement. Sometimes those correctly arguing that Obama was born in Hawaii get some of their facts wrong. Just being right doesn’t insure the argument is sound. That’s why sites like this make the effort to avoid unfounded claims and correct the record when we err.

    Governor Lingle’s radio interview is available to be listened to on YouTube and her statements were picked up by major news organizations.
    The Governor Lingle interview can be listened to at:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28W_9feWxBg
    The Los Angeles Times and the Christian Science Monitor both carried the story in the mainstream media and there is nothing stopping any reporter, from Fox News, the Wall Street Journal or the Washington Times from doing a follow up story.

    I am still having trouble finding a motive for a Repubilcan Governor who campaigned for John McCain and nominated Sarah Palin for Vice President to be lying or covering up for Barack Obama.

  268. avatar
    Majority Will July 28, 2010 at 1:29 pm #

    PetJake: Predictable, repeatedly debunked, unqualified, erroneous, non-authoritative, clueless birther nonsense with a dose of straw man arguments and political hyperbole to prove a nearly complete lack of reasoning skills.

    Where did you receive training and credentials in forensic science and forensic document examination?

  269. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 28, 2010 at 1:30 pm #

    PetJake: .Blah blah blah delusional ramblings..

    Your delusions aside Jake. Hawaii did release that document. It has been verified by the DOH no matter how many ways you try to spin it to say otherwise. No other president has released his birth certificate to the public while president. Not even a scan. But you ask more of Obama than previous presidents… why?

    Oh so its back down to 1.5 million instead of 2 you birthers can’t keep your numbers straight. You have never been able to prove more than $20 has even been spent. You do not have a right to personal records of anyone except your own or your family. Keep crying all you want.

    There was never a 1919 team called the Chicago White Socks. You’re thinking of the White Sox. Annenberg is a republican run operations. Its founders were wealthy republicans. Leonore Annenberg gave substantially to John McCain. Funny fact, John McCain was dissing the Annenberg Challenge while trumpeting his endorsement by Annenberg. Another funny fact. John McCain supported Acorn and was seen at several of their events and gave speeches about them. The Black Panthers have nothing to do with your paranoid ramblings or that event in PA. You’re talking about the small fringe New Black Panther Party where no voters reported that they were intimidated. Besides what’s the point of Voter intimidation in a precinct that overwhelmingly already votes for Democrats?

    Keep crying Jake; Obama is still president, you’re still a loser.

  270. avatar
    richCares July 28, 2010 at 1:58 pm #

    PetJake: When Obama stops trying to prevent the release of his original birth certificate that Kapiolani Hospital would have filled out, only then will he “do enough.”
    .
    funny that!
    when my daughter tried to get a passport with her Kapi’olani Hospital issued birth certificate she was told that “souvenir” birth certificates are not acceptable, hospitals do not issue legal birth certificates, she had to get a state issued birth certificate witch happened to be a COLB (like Obama’s).
    You really are a sucker on this issue, aren’t you.

  271. avatar
    Jules July 28, 2010 at 2:28 pm #

    Various people have asserted that Obama is able to easily obtain a certified photocopy of the original birth certificate that was filed on 8 August 1961.

    I propose that someone manage to show that the Hawaii Department of Health is willing and able to issue a certified copy of a birth certificate in such a format by getting their own from Hawaii today.

  272. avatar
    BatGuano July 28, 2010 at 2:45 pm #

    Jules: .I propose that someone manage to show that the Hawaii Department of Health is willing and able to issue a certified copy of a birth certificate in such a format by getting their own from Hawaii today.

    we’ve had a few people on this site claim that altho hawaii “officially” claims to only release the COLB if you go to the DoH and ask in some special way ( not sure if a secret handshake is involved ) they will be happy to give you a photocopy of the original. one poster claimed his friend had one. doc c offered to post it on the site………… still has yet to appear.

  273. avatar
    Joey July 28, 2010 at 2:57 pm #

    Jules: Various people have asserted that Obama is able to easily obtain a certified photocopy of the original birth certificate that was filed on 8 August 1961.I propose that someone manage to show that the Hawaii Department of Health is willing and able to issue a certified copy of a birth certificate in such a format by getting their own from Hawaii today.

    If it is possible to obtain a copy of a long form Hawaii birth certificate, you’d think that there would be hundreds, possibly thousands of them already posted on the internet to every conceivable conservative blog and birther website. What a great way to embarrass Obama and to force his hand to release of copy of his long form. Either birthers are too stupid to take advantage of that strategy (always a possibility) or Janice Okubo, Director of Communications for the Hawaii Department of Health is correct, no long form birth certificates have been available since the state of Hawaii went paperless and computerized their vital records (Birth, Death, Marriage) in 2001.
    Instead, there is not a single one posted that I’ve seen, anywhere.

  274. avatar
    misha July 28, 2010 at 4:05 pm #

    I sent an e-mail to Bill Keller and Paul Jensen, saying if they could get their own Hawaii COLB and prove it to me, I would donate to their cause.

    Keller e-mailed back that Hawaii stopped issuing COLBs to non-residents since Obama was elected. I never got a reply from Jensen.

  275. avatar
    Rickey July 28, 2010 at 5:11 pm #

    misha:I sent an e-mail to Bill Keller and Paul Jensen, saying if they could get their own Hawaii COLB and prove it to me, I would donate to their cause.Keller e-mailed back that Hawaii stopped issuing COLBs to non-residents since Obama was elected. I never got a reply from Jensen.

    Ask Keller if he can provide you with evidence of single COLB (other than Obama’s, of course) which was issued to someone who was not born in Hawaii but which says that the person was born in Hawaii.

    I keep asking birthers to show me an example, and they always “respond” with silence.

  276. avatar
    Ellid July 28, 2010 at 5:22 pm #

    Sef:
    Why do people in the “reality community” continually ignore the only realistic scenario.He was born in Kenya & then zipped back to Honolulu in a Tardis (the Master’s, not the Doctor’s) appearing at 7:24 on 8/4/61. His mother would have plenty of time to register him properly with no one the wiser. Makes sense to me.

    *vworp* *vworp* *vworp*

  277. avatar
    nc1 July 28, 2010 at 5:30 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: How can you believe that Obama has an amended Certificate of Live Birth in Hawaii if you don’t know where he was born?

    You have been reading the blog where the correspondence with the DoH has been documented. You sent me the link when I asked about the difference between the Filed vs Accepted phrases on Hawaii COLBs.
    There has been a request for the release of information related to Obama’s request to amend his birth certificate – the response from the DoH was that the person asking for this data was not entitled to it – thus implicitly confiming its existence.

    In addition, if Obama was born in Hawaii, the UIPA request for the original index records (from 1961) would not have been stalled for months in the DoH. These records are supposed to be permanently stored in the archives and available to the public upon request. The DoH is violating the UIPA law by not releasing this data.

    If the original index data contained anything different from what has been shown in the Obama’s COLB – the DoH would not release it because it would expose their cover up for the past two years.

  278. avatar
    Reality Check July 28, 2010 at 5:30 pm #

    Ellid: *vworp* *vworp* *vworp*

    Congratulations on the clever onomatopoeia.

  279. avatar
    misha July 28, 2010 at 5:37 pm #

    Sort of on topic:

    Tim Lahaye, Evangelical Christian Minister, Warns Obama Bringing Us Closer To ‘The Apocalypse’:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1or5mQFz6Pc&videos=4M2OBxyr6-M

  280. avatar
    richCares July 28, 2010 at 5:42 pm #

    because it would expose their cover up for the past two years.
    .
    HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

  281. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 28, 2010 at 6:15 pm #

    @nc1:

    One cannot amend a certificate of live birth without having a certificate of live birth, and one cannot have a certificate of live birth without being born in the jurisdiction (in this case Hawaii). That is what a certificate of live birth is (as opposed to a certificate of foreign birth…). So if, as you believe, Obama has an amended certificate of live birth, then you must also admit that all the evidence you’re are going to get out of the Hawaii Department of Health in the way of documentation, amended or not, will show that he was born in Hawaii.

  282. avatar
    bob July 28, 2010 at 6:32 pm #

    nc1: There has been a request for the release of information related to Obama’s request to amend his birth certificate – the response from the DoH was that the person asking for this data was not entitled to it – thus implicitly confiming its existence.
    In addition, if Obama was born in Hawaii, the UIPA request for the original index records (from 1961) would not have been stalled for months in the DoH.

    Denying access is not the same as implicitly confirming its existence. If I asked Hawaii if you had a criminal record and they denied me access, does that imply you do have one?

    As for the index data: here it is. As for the delay: Hawaii’s DoH has much, much better things to do than promptly answer these kinds of requests. (And welcome to government work.)

  283. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 28, 2010 at 7:26 pm #

    bob: Denying access is not the same as implicitly confirming its existence. If I asked Hawaii if you had a criminal record and they denied me access, does that imply you do have one?

    Butterdezillion’s theory, being passed on by nc1, is that the State of Hawaii has an opinion letter about how to deny things in such a way as not to disclose whether the thing being denied exists or not. Because the Department of Health didn’t use what Butterdezillion considered an equivalent of this formula (“forgot to say please” or in this case: “[the] records that would be responsive to the request, if any, are exempt from disclosure pursuant to sections 92F-13(3) and (4)”) their denial became an informative denial. The central tenet of the Office of Information Practices (OIP) letter is that the agency should give the same reply whether they have the record or not. To my knowledge the birthers have not shown that the Hawaii Department of Health replies that they cannot release the information in one case, and that they have no information in another.

  284. avatar
    Don Draper July 28, 2010 at 8:44 pm #

    bob:
    Denying access is not the same as implicitly confirming its existence.If I asked Hawaii if you had a criminal record and they denied me access, does that imply you do have one?As for the index data: here it is.As for the delay: Hawaii’s DoH has much, much better things to do than promptly answer these kinds of requests.(And welcome to government work.)

    Apparently, BZ has requested and is entitled to see BO’s certificate number in his index data. Why won’t HDoH confirm the certificate number on the 1961 COLB?

    Aloha!

    VR-1 Birth index (p 21 on retention schedule)

    VDR-1 Delayed BC Index (p. 22 on retention schedule)

    VDR-6 COHB Index (p 23 on retention schedule)

    VDR-10 Index to certificates of foreign birth (p 19 on retention schedule)

    I’ve enclosed the retention schedules so you can see what I’m talking about. There should be either original copies or microfilms. Since these are from 1961 they would not be computerized. I’m asking for electronic copies of the original or microfilmed records, including everything that was authorized for public release before UIPA was passed in 1988 (name, birth date, and certificate number – which were public since at least 1977; see p. 11 of OIP Opinion Letter 90-23 ) since UIPA was not intended to close any previously-authorized disclosures (see Opinion Letter 90-04 (page 6 ) . Any other information may be redacted if its disclosure was not authorized before 1988 and an exemption to disclosure applies)

  285. avatar
    AnotherBird July 28, 2010 at 8:46 pm #

    Jules: Various people have asserted that Obama is able to easily obtain a certified photocopy of the original birth certificate that was filed on 8 August 1961.I propose that someone manage to show that the Hawaii Department of Health is willing and able to issue a certified copy of a birth certificate in such a format by getting their own from Hawaii today.

    Jules are you still here. Various people can assert anything, but it has no relevance to what is possible in Hawaii. Obama has produced a certified copy of his birth records.

    However, it is amusing that you admit that there are no examples of what those people asserted. (Head shake)

  286. avatar
    Joey July 28, 2010 at 8:58 pm #

    Wouldn’t an amended vital record say “AMENDED” on the COLB produced from the amended vital record?

  287. avatar
    bob July 28, 2010 at 9:02 pm #

    Don Draper: BZ has requested and is entitled to see BO’s certificate number in his index data

    Just because you or BZ doesn’t make it so.

  288. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 28, 2010 at 9:29 pm #

    Joey: Wouldn’t an amended vital record say “AMENDED” on the COLB produced from the amended vital record?

    Generally, yes. An exception would be for unmarried parents when no father were listed originally, and father were added within some period of time after the birth. [HRS §338-21].

    HRS §338-16 Procedure concerning late and altered birth certificates. (a) Birth certificates registered one year or more after the date of birth, and certificates which have been altered after being filed with the department of health, shall contain the date of the late filing and the date of the alteration and be marked distinctly “late” or “altered”.

  289. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 28, 2010 at 9:33 pm #

    Sven Magnussen: Apparently, BZ has requested and is entitled to see BO’s certificate number in his index data. Why won’t HDoH confirm the certificate number on the 1961 COLB?

    Nothing I see in the law that says the certificate number is part of index data. On the other hand, I don’t see an objection to releasing this information.

  290. avatar
    AnotherBird July 28, 2010 at 10:00 pm #

    Joey: Wouldn’t an amended vital record say “AMENDED” on the COLB produced from the amended vital record?

    The problem with them is that they see a law that states something is possible, and then the conclude that it happened. They have nothing to support their arguments.

  291. avatar
    nc1 July 28, 2010 at 11:48 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: @nc1: One cannot amend a certificate of live birth without having a certificate of live birth, and one cannot have a certificate of live birth without being born in the jurisdiction (in this case Hawaii). That is what a certificate of live birth is (as opposed to a certificate of foreign birth…). So if, as you believe, Obama has an amended certificate of live birth, then you must also admit that all the evidence you’re are going to get out of the Hawaii Department of Health in the way of documentation, amended or not, will show that he was born in Hawaii.

    Fraudulent unattended birth registration by the grandmother, amended at some point.

  292. avatar
    bob July 29, 2010 at 1:07 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Nothing I see in the law that says the certificate number is part of index data.

    An older version of law disclosed the file number for the vital event. It doesn’t now, but the BZ/Sven read an OIP opinion letter to require disclosure of information that once was public. (Of course, their reading is wrong.)

  293. avatar
    bob July 29, 2010 at 1:08 am #

    nc1: Fraudulent unattended birth registration by the grandmother, amended at some point.

    No evidence of fraud; no evidence of being amended.

    But other than that….

  294. avatar
    SluggoJD July 29, 2010 at 1:11 am #

    nc1:
    Fraudulent unattended birth registration by the grandmother, amended at some point.

    All planned so that Obama could be the Manchurian Candidate of socialists, nazis, commies, and every other group of bad guys in the history of Planet Earth!

    Stop fibbing. Stop making stuff up. Stop deceiving. And if you get paid for all your dishonesty, get a life, and a better job.

  295. avatar
    BatGuano July 29, 2010 at 1:54 am #

    nc1:
    Fraudulent unattended birth registration by the grandmother,…..

    well if this was the case than obama would have no knowledge of this dastardly deed. since there would be an official registration of hawaiian birth it would be treated just the same as any other US birth.

  296. avatar
    BatGuano July 29, 2010 at 1:59 am #

    nc1:
    …… amended at some point.

    shut the front door !!!!! you contend that the birth information was completely bogus from the beginning putting obama’s birth in hawaii…….. AND they had to amend it !!??!!!

    how does this work ? honestly.

  297. avatar
    Jules July 29, 2010 at 2:13 am #

    AnotherBird: Jules are you still here. Various people can assert anything, but it has no relevance to what is possible in Hawaii. Obama has produced a certified copy of his birth records.

    However, it is amusing that you admit that there are no examples of what those people asserted. (Head shake)

    I agree that there is no reason to believe that the assertions about current practice in Hawaii are correct. That is why I have asked those making such assertions to find a birther born in Hawaii (and there must be a few, even if the vast majority of birthers were not born in Hawaii) and get that person to successfully order a birth certificate in the form of a certified photocopy of the original document in the acrhives. Unless and until they do so, then their assertions that Obama can still do the same will be nothing more than uninformed speculation.

  298. avatar
    AnotherBird July 29, 2010 at 4:41 am #

    Jules:
    I agree that there is no reason to believe that the assertions about current practice in Hawaii are correct. That is why I have asked those making such assertions to find a birther born in Hawaii (and there must be a few, even if the vast majority of birthers were not born in Hawaii) and get that person to successfully order a birth certificate in the form of a certified photocopy of the original document in the acrhives. Unless and until they do so, then their assertions that Obama can still do the same will be nothing more than uninformed speculation.

    There have been many cases of people who have requested birth certificates from the Department of Health and only got the Certification of Live Birth. It has been over two years now and they haven’t been able to produce anything. Is it the bad detective in conspiracy nuts or something else.

  299. avatar
    Ellid July 29, 2010 at 7:42 am #

    nc1:
    Fraudulent unattended birth registration by the grandmother, amended at some point.

    Asked and answered over a year ago. Why won’t you acknowledge that you’ve already been told all this long since? We know who you are already so there’s no sense in pretending that you haven’t been outed.

  300. avatar
    Majority Will July 29, 2010 at 8:37 am #

    Ellid:
    Asked and answered over a year ago.Why won’t you acknowledge that you’ve already been told all this long since?We know who you are already so there’s no sense in pretending that you haven’t been outed.

    The farce is strong with this one.

  301. avatar
    misha July 29, 2010 at 8:53 am #

    Ellid: Why won’t you acknowledge that you’ve already been told all this long since?

    If you argue with a fool, make sure you’re not doing the same thing.

  302. avatar
    Dick Whitman July 29, 2010 at 10:51 am #

    Joey: Wouldn’t an amended vital record say “AMENDED” on the COLB produced from the amended vital record?

    The COLB on Fight the Smears website was forged to remove the word “amended.”

    Later, HDoH come out say BO has vital records on file and we are to assume the COLB posted online the COLB on file with HDoH.

    The question is, “Why was the COLB amended and why does Obama want to hide the fact his COLB has been amended?”

  303. avatar
    Dick Whitman July 29, 2010 at 11:05 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Opinion Letter 90-04

    Birth Certificate number must be disclosed

    http://butterdezillion.wordpress.com/2010/02/12/birth-certificate-number-must-be-disclosed/

    And birth certificate numbers were available to the public before UIPA was passed. According to p. 11 of OIP Opinion Letter 90-23 (written in 1990) HRS 338-18 included:

    “(d) Index data consisting of name, age, and sex of the registrant and date, type and file number of the vital event and such other data as the director may authorize may be made available to the public.”

    If you look at HRS 338-18 now, it says there were revisions in 1949, 1955, 1959, 1967, 1977, 1991, 1997, and 2001. So what was cited in the 1990 OIP Letter had been in effect since at least 1977. That means that the date and file number for vital events were records that were available to the general public ACCORDING TO STATUTE before UIPA went into effect in 1988.

  304. avatar
    Jules July 29, 2010 at 11:07 am #

    Dick Whitman: The COLB on Fight the Smears website was forged to remove the word “amended.”

    You present no evidence in support of your allegation.

    Dick Whitman: Later, HDoH come out say BO has vital records on file and we are to assume the COLB posted online the COLB on file with HDoH.

    Actually, we know from Factcheck’s inspection of the document that it did not say amended and that the certificate number is 151 1961 – 010641. We also know that the raised seal and signature of Alvin T. Onaka were affixed to the document on June 6, 2007.

    Dick Whitman: The question is, “Why was the COLB amended and why does Obama want to hide the fact his COLB has been amended?”

    The answer is, “It wasn’t. Stop building your argument upon statements that have no basis in fact.”

  305. avatar
    BatGuano July 29, 2010 at 11:07 am #

    Dick Whitman:
    The question is, “Why was the COLB amended and why does Obama want to hide the fact his COLB has been amended?”

    you forgot to add the obligatory “hmmmmmmmmm”.

  306. avatar
    Majority Will July 29, 2010 at 11:13 am #

    Dick Whitman:
    The COLB on Fight the Smears website was forged to remove the word “amended.”Later, HDoH come out say BO has vital records on file and we are to assume the COLB posted online the COLB on file with HDoH.The question is, “Why was the COLB amended and why does Obama want to hide the fact his COLB has been amended?”

    Sven. Sven. Sven.

    Have you ever had anyone make up baseless accusations about you?

    The real question is why do you keep beating a dead horse? There are dead horse chunks in every one of your posts.

    Can you been amended? Are you mentally ill? Or is this your full time job?

  307. avatar
    Rickey July 29, 2010 at 11:56 am #

    Dick Whitman:
    The question is, “Why was the COLB amended and why does Obama want to hide the fact his COLB has been amended?”

    No – the question is, “Why does Sven keep repeating the same discredited nonsense over and over again?”

  308. avatar
    JoZeppy July 29, 2010 at 12:06 pm #

    Dick Whitman: The COLB on Fight the Smears website was forged to remove the word “amended.”Later, HDoH come out say BO has vital records on file and we are to assume the COLB posted online the COLB on file with HDoH.The question is, “Why was the COLB amended and why does Obama want to hide the fact his COLB has been amended?”

    So much easier to live in a fact optional world, isn’t it? Those of us stuck in the reality based world have to contend with silly little things like facts when we have to make statements…perhaps you should try it some time?

  309. avatar
    G July 29, 2010 at 2:05 pm #

    You folks are being too kind…or maybe just trying to not trigger the filter.

    Let’s be straight – Sven’s going beyond his usual fantasy fiction nonsense and simply making bold faced L-I-E-S. He is nothing but a L-I-A-R and delusional smear-merchant. And a failed one at that.

  310. avatar
    SvenMagnussen July 29, 2010 at 3:06 pm #

    F.B.I. Agents Under Investigation
    Oublished: July 29, 2010

    The director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Robert S. Mueller III, told Congress on Wednesday that he did not know how many of his agents had cheated on an important exam on the bureau’s new policies on surveillance, a situation now being investigated by the Justice Department’s inspector general.
    ————————————————————————————————————————————-

    Law Enforcement in need of an extreme makeover. And the FBI has a copy of Barry Soetoro’s Certificate of Loss of Nationality on file.

    Shame! Shame!

  311. avatar
    G July 29, 2010 at 3:09 pm #

    Ah…more meaningless connections by Sven where there are none. The delusional mind is indeed a wonder to behold!

  312. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 29, 2010 at 3:12 pm #

    SvenMagnussen: F.B.I. Agents Under InvestigationOublished: July 29, 2010The director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Robert S. Mueller III, told Congress on Wednesday that he did not know how many of his agents had cheated on an important exam on the bureau’s new policies on surveillance, a situation now being investigated by the Justice Department’s inspector general.————————————————————————————————————————————-Law Enforcement in need of an extreme makeover. And the FBI has a copy of Barry Soetoro’s Certificate of Loss of Nationality on file. Shame! Shame!

    Hmmm what does the part above have to do with Obama? You do know Mueller is a holdover from George W Bush don’t you? Why would the FBI keep a copy of a loss of nationality on file when that is a record the State Department would keep?

  313. avatar
    Black Lion July 29, 2010 at 3:15 pm #

    G: Ah…more meaningless connections by Sven where there are none. The delusional mind is indeed a wonder to behold!

    Agreed…I wonder if Sven will try and make the following story part of the coverup…maybe the ficticious SS-4 or Loss of Nationality was what the criminals found in the President’s loan records and this is the way the Administration is going to keep them quiet….they take the deal or get sent to one of Orly’s infamous “FEMA” camps…

    “DES MOINES, Iowa — Two former employees of a U.S. Department of Education contractor in Iowa have pleaded guilty to illegally viewing President Barack Obama’s student loan records.

    Julie Kline of Ainsworth, Iowa, pleaded guilty Friday to exceeding authorized computer access. Gary Grenell of Iowa City pleaded guilty to the charge July 12. Both face up to one year in prison and a $100,000 fine.

    They were among nine former employees of Vangent Inc. accused of viewing Obama’s student loan records between 2007 and 2009.

    Three other defendants have pleaded guilty, and four are scheduled for trial.”

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38383073/ns/us_news

  314. avatar
    BatGuano July 29, 2010 at 3:20 pm #

    SvenMagnussen: Law Enforcement in need of an extreme makeover.

    curious sven, what do you propose our new law enforcement look like ? is ty pennington involved in the extreme makeover ?

  315. avatar
    Majority Will July 29, 2010 at 3:42 pm #

    SvenMagnussen: F.B.I. Agents Under Investigation
    Oublished: July 29, 2010The director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Robert S. Mueller III, told Congress on Wednesday that he did not know how many of his agents had cheated on an important exam on the bureau’s new policies on surveillance, a situation now being investigated by the Justice Department’s inspector general.
    ————————————————————————————————————————————-Law Enforcement in need of an extreme makeover. And the FBI has a copy of Barry Soetoro’s Certificate of Loss of Nationality on file.
    Shame! Shame!

    How many different voices are you carrying around in your head?

    Does it get real loud in there sometimes?

  316. avatar
    nc1 July 29, 2010 at 6:18 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Nothing I see in the law that says the certificate number is part of index data. On the other hand, I don’t see an objection to releasing this information.

    If you submit a request for index data for a person having a common name like Joe Smith, what is the point of DoH parroting back the same information to you but multiple times? What is the purpose of index data if neither certificate number nor date are part of it? Such index has no meaning.

    Obama has published the COLB and his lawyers have reffered to it in one of the lawsuits when they pointed out that images posted on FactCheck show his birth certificate.

    The purpose of the UIPA law restrictions on releasing birth certificates to the public is the protection of privacy. When the compelling public interest exists and the person in question has already published the birth certificate – what prevents the DoH to confirm it? There is no privacy issue involved. It is that simple. Obama has already made it public. The effort by the DoH to prevent public from confirming the data shown in Obama’s COLB tells me that the COLB presented to the public is a forgery.

  317. avatar
    bob July 29, 2010 at 6:23 pm #

    nc1: When the compelling public interest exists and the person in question has already published the birth certificate – what prevents the DoH to confirm it?

    Express waiver; look it up.

    The effort by the DoH to prevent public from confirming the data shown in Obama’s COLB tells me that the COLB presented to the public is a forgery.

    More classic conspiracythink. (And hint: Both the COLB and index data indicate Obama was born in Hawaii, which is sufficient for natural-born citizenry purposes.)

  318. avatar
    BatGuano July 29, 2010 at 6:40 pm #

    nc1:
    The effort by the DoH to prevent public from confirming the data shown in Obama’s COLB tells me that the COLB presented to the public is a forgery.

    just to keep up to date:

    according to nc1…… there was a fraudulent birth certificate obtained by obama’s grandmother stating that he was born in hawaii ( and therefor, as far as anyone outside the little evil conspiracy was concerned, a legitimate birth certificate ). this was modified because of some unknown reason. then a very complex and accurate forgery of a 2007 COLB was made because they didn’t want to show the amendment that was put on there for……. what reason ????

    correct ???

  319. avatar
    Majority Will July 29, 2010 at 7:32 pm #

    BatGuano:
    just to keep up to date:according to nc1…… there was a fraudulent birth certificate obtained by obama’s grandmother stating that he was born in hawaii ( and therefor, as far as anyone outside the little evil conspiracy was concerned, a legitimate birth certificate ). this was modified because of some unknown reason. then a very complex and accurate forgery of a 2007 COLB was made because they didn’t want to show the amendment that was put on there for……. what reason ????correct ???

    It may be inscrutable now.

    But she’ll keep working on her theory for years until somehow, somehow, somehow it magically comes true.

    There are so many more details and scenarios to fabricate. And obviously, it doesn’t really matter if you believe her.

    Many birthers pin all of their hopes on a truly pathetic quest to rewrite history.

    That is an obsession.

    They are consumed with hatred and fear.

  320. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 29, 2010 at 8:23 pm #

    nc1: If you submit a request for index data for a person having a common name like Joe Smith, what is the point of DoH parroting back the same information to you but multiple times? What is the purpose of index data if neither certificate number nor date are part of it? Such index has no meaning.

    The purpose is to verify that what you thought you knew is true.

  321. avatar
    nc1 July 29, 2010 at 9:36 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The purpose is to verify that what you thought you knew is true.

    You cannot verify anything if the index data contains only a name.

    How would a defense contractor with the requirement to hire only a US citizens verify that Joe Smith was indeed born in the Hawaii, if Joe Smith submitted a COLB as part of the job application, and the DoH refused to confirm it? If the HR person submitted a request to DoH including the name, date of birth and the certificate number – only then would a confirmation from the DoH be meaningful.

  322. avatar
    nc1 July 29, 2010 at 9:45 pm #

    bob: Express waiver; look it up.More classic conspiracythink. (And hint: Both the COLB and index data indicate Obama was born in Hawaii, which is sufficient for natural-born citizenry purposes.)

    Could you explain what the express waiver theory is and how would it apply to this situation?

    If the DoH released Obama’s COLB to the public (after it has already been published by Obama) – who would complain about it? Who would be the injured party?

  323. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 29, 2010 at 10:04 pm #

    nc1: How would a defense contractor with the requirement to hire only a US citizens verify that Joe Smith was indeed born in the Hawaii, if Joe Smith submitted a COLB as part of the job application, and the DoH refused to confirm it? If the HR person submitted a request to DoH including the name, date of birth and the certificate number – only then would a confirmation from the DoH be meaningful.

    You express here a common misconception. Birth Certificates are not identity documents.

  324. avatar
    BatGuano July 29, 2010 at 10:05 pm #

    nc1:
    .How would a defense contractor with the requirement to hire only a US citizens verify that Joe Smith was indeed born in the Hawaii, if Joe Smith submitted a COLB as part of the job application, and the DoH refused to confirm it?

    because it’s a “self-authenticating document” ( there are those words again that you hate so much ). please show me ANY time someone has needed to show a COLB ( or equal document ) for ANY reason and needed it to be verified by the DoH………. ?????

  325. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 29, 2010 at 10:13 pm #

    nc1:
    You cannot verify anything if the index data contains only a name.How would a defense contractor with the requirement to hire only a US citizens verify that Joe Smith was indeed born in the Hawaii, if Joe Smith submitted a COLB as part of the job application, and the DoH refused to confirm it?If the HR person submitted a request to DoH including the name, date of birth and the certificate number – only then would a confirmation from the DoH be meaningful.

    How many Barack Obama’s do you think were born in Hawaii?

  326. avatar
    Majority Will July 29, 2010 at 10:27 pm #

    BatGuano:
    because it’s a “self-authenticating document” ( there are those words again that you hate so much ). please show me ANY time someone has needed to show a COLB ( or equal document ) for ANY reason and needed it to be verified by the DoH………. ?????

    Birther stupidity is sounding more and more like random static noise.

  327. avatar
    BatGuano July 29, 2010 at 10:47 pm #

    Majority Will:
    Birther stupidity is sounding more and more like random static noise.

    it may just be a personal attempt to disprove darwinism.

  328. avatar
    misha July 29, 2010 at 10:55 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): How many Barack Obama’s do you think were born in Hawaii?

    At least a dozen. (bada-bing)

  329. avatar
    Keith July 30, 2010 at 2:50 am #

    nc1:
    You cannot verify anything if the index data contains only a name.How would a defense contractor with the requirement to hire only a US citizens verify that Joe Smith was indeed born in the Hawaii, if Joe Smith submitted a COLB as part of the job application, and the DoH refused to confirm it?If the HR person submitted a request to DoH including the name, date of birth and the certificate number – only then would a confirmation from the DoH be meaningful.

    In your scenario, what way has the Hawai’ian DoH ‘refused to confirm it’?

    A COLB has an official Hawai’ian raised seal impressed onto it, and a signature from the official custodian of vital events records for the State of Hawai’i.

    That is precisely the DoH confirming the information displayed on the form.

    Period.

  330. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 3:24 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: You express here a common misconception. Birth Certificates are not identity documents.

    My scenario was very clear – an applicant had to be a US citizen in order to qualify for a job with a defense contractor.

    Birth certificate is one of the documents that can be used to prove CITIZENSHIP.

    If the DoH refused to confirm the index data for Joe Smith, certification number – what would be the point of having a birth index available to the public?

  331. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 4:02 am #

    BatGuano: because it’s a “self-authenticating document” ( there are those words again that you hate so much ). please show me ANY time someone has needed to show a COLB ( or equal document ) for ANY reason and needed it to be verified by the DoH………. ?????

    If a Joe Smith submitted a COLB document to a defense contractor as a part of a job application (only US citizens are considered for that particular job), how would a hiring person know that the document is a legitimate one and not a forged piece of paper, self-authenticating phrase notwithstanding.

    When I applied for my present job, the company verified with the school that I really got a degree from that school. They did not rely solely on the document submitted in my job application.
    The document obviously served as a filter in the screening process but once they decided on the candidate – they verified that documents were authentic.

    I hope that the similar procedure is in place with those companies where sensitive information is handled and the US citizenship is required.

  332. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 4:24 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): How many Barack Obama’s do you think were born in Hawaii?

    That is irrelevant question in this particular discussion.

    A fraud prevention is one reason for having the birth index records available for public inspection. Rules for disclosing data have to make sense for anybody not just a person with a very unique name.

    The current DoH practice of refusing to confirm the index data when registration number is included in the request makes absolutely no sense. The registration number is not a government secret, and outside the DoH office it serves no purpose (you cannot use it in a similar fashion like SSA number).
    The DoH registration number is unique for each individual – it is a perfect key for identifying a particular Joe Smith among numerous other persons sharing the same name.

  333. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 4:53 am #

    Keith: In your scenario, what way has the Hawai’ian DoH refused to confirm it’? A COLB has an official Hawai’ian raised seal impressed onto it, and a signature from the official custodian of vital events records for the State of Hawai’i.That is precisely the DoH confirming the information displayed on the form. Period.

    Forged documents are reality of life. In Obama’s case, even the seal you mentioned cannot be recognized as the Hawaii state seal. It is absent in the first COLB image and the FactCheck photograph is poor – you cannot distinguish letters. Even if letters were recognizable, you could not tell whether it was a legitimate document or a good forgery.

    I have asked the question before and Obama supporters have not answered it: If the DoH issued a COLB to the public who would complain about it – who would be an injured party?

    Nothing prevents the DoH from releasing the document after it has been published on the web and publicly acknowledged by Obama’s lawyers.

    Using common sense and observing the DoH behavior one can easily see that they cannot release the document which would contradict the image Obama presented to the public. There is no other explanation for their refusal to acknowledge the issuing of COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007.

  334. avatar
    Expelliarmus July 30, 2010 at 6:10 am #

    nc1: If the DoH issued a COLB to the public who would complain about it – who would be an injured party?

    They don’t have to issue a COLB — they PUBLISHED the INDEX DATA on the DOH web site, and also published TWO statements on their site attesting to the fact that Obama was born in Hawaii.

    A COLB is nothing more than a piece of paper attesting to the FACTS that DOH has already posted publicly on their web site.

  335. avatar
    AnotherBird July 30, 2010 at 6:16 am #

    nc1:
    That is irrelevant question in this particular discussion.
    A fraud prevention is one reason for having the birth index records available for public inspection. Rules for disclosing data have to make sense for anybody not just a person with a very unique name.
    The current DoH practice of refusing to confirm the index data when registration number is included in the request makes absolutely no sense. The registration number is not a government secret, and outside the DoH office it serves no purpose (you cannot use it in a similar fashion like SSA number).
    The DoH registration number is unique for each individual – it is a perfect key for identifying a particular Joe Smith among numerous other persons sharing the same name.

    It is a strong statement to suggest that fraud has been committed. nc1, you seem to continue to babble about nothing.You have absolutely no authority in determining if a fraud has been committed or not. Also, you have provided absolutely nothing that would suggest that fraud has been committed.

    You are incorrect about your assertions. It is the Department of Heath who can determine whether or not fraud has been committed. They are many tools at their disposal to investigate the issue, even include external investigators to look into the issue. They completed an investigate and confirmed the existence of the birth original record in their possession.

    You comment about “confirm the index data” is just noise to distract from the fact that you have nothing.

  336. avatar
    Sef July 30, 2010 at 6:46 am #

    nc1: Birth certificate is one of the documents that can be used to prove CITIZENSHIP.

    One of the cornerstones of birtherdom is that Obama lost his citizenship in Indonesia. You have just agreed that it is impossible for a NBC child to give up his citizenship

  337. avatar
    Sef July 30, 2010 at 7:03 am #

    Sef:
    One of the cornerstones of birtherdom is that Obama lost his citizenship in Indonesia.You have just agreed that it is impossible for a NBC child to give up his citizenship

    nc, if you continue to undermine the birthers’ argument they won’t let you be one of their sock puppets.

  338. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 30, 2010 at 7:27 am #

    nc1: Using common sense and observing the DoH behavior one can easily see that they cannot release the document which would contradict the image Obama presented to the public.

    Right, they cannot release such a contradicting document, because they don’t have such a contradicting document.

  339. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 30, 2010 at 7:33 am #

    nc1: The DoH registration number is unique for each individual – it is a perfect key for identifying a particular Joe Smith among numerous other persons sharing the same name.

    While it may be true in Hawaii that all registration numbers are unique, this is not the case nationwide. Some states have duplicate registration numbers. In general it’s not a very good key because the number isn’t widely known.

    Relating a particular birth certificate to an original registration isn’t something of value, since BOTH say that George Walker Bush was born in Connecticut, and neither can tell you whether the person holding the certificate is either of them.

  340. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 30, 2010 at 7:40 am #

    nc1: If a Joe Smith submitted a COLB document to a defense contractor as a part of a job application (only US citizens are considered for that particular job), how would a hiring person know that the document is a legitimate one and not a forged piece of paper, self-authenticating phrase notwithstanding.

    The vast majority of vital statistics fraud is when someone presents a valid birth certificate, but one that does not belong to them. In the systems being deployed in support of the Real ID act, they are verifying that the named person applying for a drivers license was really born using name, date and place of birth. These systems do not use certificate number. The important thing is not to validate the birth certificate, but the fact of birth; once that is done, the paper is irrelevant. The tricky part comes in trying to make sure that the person is who they claim to be, and the birth certificate doesn’t do that conclusively.

  341. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 30, 2010 at 7:45 am #

    nc1: Dr. Conspiracy: You express here a common misconception. Birth Certificates are not identity documents.

    My scenario was very clear – an applicant had to be a US citizen in order to qualify for a job with a defense contractor.

    Birth certificate is one of the documents that can be used to prove CITIZENSHIP.

    If the DoH refused to confirm the index data for Joe Smith, certification number – what would be the point of having a birth index available to the public?

    You continue to miss the point. You are contending that a person holding a valid piece of paper is proof that person is a citizen and you want to validate the piece of paper. That only makes sense if you assume that the piece of paper is an identity document. It is not.

    A birth certificate is just a portable way of proving the fact of birth. The fact of birth can be validated externally without a certificate number. The problem is determining whether the person holding the certificate is the person named on the certificate, and no certificate number helps you there.

  342. avatar
    Jules July 30, 2010 at 7:59 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: A birth certificate is just a portable way of proving the fact of birth. The fact of birth can be validated externally without a certificate number. The problem is determining whether the person holding the certificate is the person named on the certificate, and no certificate number helps you there.

    I suppose it would be possible to have a DNA sample taken at birth and linked to a birth registration. This would allow conclusive determination as to whether any given person is the individual named on a birth record. However, I hope that this is never done due to the massive invasion of privacy that would come with keeping everyone’s DNA on file.

  343. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 30, 2010 at 8:58 am #

    nc1: That is irrelevant question in this particular discussion. A fraud prevention is one reason for having the birth index records available for public inspection. Rules for disclosing data have to make sense for anybody not just a person with a very unique name. The current DoH practice of refusing to confirm the index data when registration number is included in the request makes absolutely no sense. The registration number is not a government secret, and outside the DoH office it serves no purpose (you cannot use it in a similar fashion like SSA number).The DoH registration number is unique for each individual – it is a perfect key for identifying a particular Joe Smith among numerous other persons sharing the same name.

    Well you were talking about a generic name like Joe Smith. Saying the birth index would be hard to tell from others sharing the same name. That’s why I asked you how many Barack Obama’s do you think were born in Hawaii that there would be confusion over the birth index? Obviously you have problems with how vital statistic documents are created.

  344. avatar
    Whatever4 July 30, 2010 at 9:36 am #

    Hawaii HAS a prcess for verifying the information on a COLB, that doesn’t involve the Index data. If the defense contractor wants official verification of the data, he/she can request a Letter of Verification.

    “Letters of verification may be issued in lieu of certified copies (HRS §338-14.3). This document verifies the existence of a birth/death/marriage/divorce certificate on file with the Department of Health and any other information that the applicant provides to be verified relating to the vital event. (For example, that a certain named individual was born on a certain date at a certain place.) The verification process will not, however, disclose information about the vital event contained within the certificate that is unknown to and not provided by the applicant in the request.”
    http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/vital-records/vital_records.html

    This requires the permission of the named individual, of course, but is more information than the index data.

  345. avatar
    Majority Will July 30, 2010 at 9:57 am #

    Whatever4: Hawaii HAS a prcess for verifying the information on a COLB, that doesn’t involve the Index data. If the defense contractor wants official verification of the data, he/she can request a Letter of Verification.
    “Letters of verification may be issued in lieu of certified copies (HRS §338-14.3). This document verifies the existence of a birth/death/marriage/divorce certificate on file with the Department of Health and any other information that the applicant provides to be verified relating to the vital event. (For example, that a certain named individual was born on a certain date at a certain place.) The verification process will not, however, disclose information about the vital event contained within the certificate that is unknown to and not provided by the applicant in the request.”
    http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/vital-records/vital_records.htmlThis requires the permission of the named individual, of course, but is more information than the index data.

    NC1 is not interested in information that contradicts her version of reality. She’ll have an explanation for how that letter is fraudulent or irrelevant.

    Man: Look, this isn’t an argument.
    Mr Vibrating: Yes it is.
    Man: No it isn’t, it’s just contradiction.
    Mr Vibrating: No it isn’t.
    Man: Yes it is.
    Mr Vibrating: It is not.
    Man: It is. You just contradicted me.
    Mr Vibrating: No I didn’t.
    Man: Ooh, you did!
    Mr Vibrating: No, no, no, no, no.
    Man: You did, just then.
    Mr Vibrating: No, nonsense!
    Man: Oh, look this is futile.
    Mr Vibrating: No it isn’t.
    Man: I came here for a good argument.
    Mr Vibrating: No you didn’t, you came here for an argument.
    Man: Well, an argument’s not the same as contradiction.
    Mr Vibrating: It can be.
    Man: No it can’t. An argument is a connected series of statements to establish a definite proposition.
    Mr Vibrating: No it isn’t.
    Man: Yes it is. It isn’t just contradiction.
    Mr Vibrating: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    Man: But it isn’t just saying ‘No it isn’t’.
    Mr Vibrating: Yes it is.
    Man: No it isn’t, Argument is an intellectual process … contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
    Mr Vibrating: No it isn’t.
    Ma:n Yes it is.
    Mr Vibrating: Not at all.
    Man: Now look!
    Mr Vibrating: (pressing the bell on his desk) That’s it. Good morning.

  346. avatar
    Jules July 30, 2010 at 10:19 am #

    Whatever4: Hawaii HAS a prcess for verifying the information on a COLB, that doesn’t involve the Index data. If the defense contractor wants official verification of the data, he/she can request a Letter of Verification.
    “Letters of verification may be issued in lieu of certified copies (HRS §338-14.3). This document verifies the existence of a birth/death/marriage/divorce certificate on file with the Department of Health and any other information that the applicant provides to be verified relating to the vital event. (For example, that a certain named individual was born on a certain date at a certain place.) The verification process will not, however, disclose information about the vital event contained within the certificate that is unknown to and not provided by the applicant in the request.”
    http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/vital-records/vital_records.htmlThis requires the permission of the named individual, of course, but is more information than the index data.

    Yes, Obama could request a letter of verification from Hawaii and get a document re-stating the information that is on the Certification of Live Birth issued in 2007 and stating any other information from the original birth record of which Obama is aware. I suppose this means that he could get a confirmation that he was born in Kapi’olani Hospital. (He would only be able to get a verification of the name of the attending physician if he already knows the name. This would depend, I suppose, on whether he still has a certificate issued when Hawaii routinely issued certified photocopies of the original registration.)

    Of course, the letter of verification itself is a document issued by the Hawaii Department of Health and will just lead to the same allegations of forgery or alteration. We would just come full circle with those who believe that a document issued by the Hawaii Department of Health cannot be taken on its face or that Obama and Factcheck conspired to present a fraudulent image.

  347. avatar
    BatGuano July 30, 2010 at 10:20 am #

    nc1: If the DoH issued a COLB to the public who would complain about it – who would be an injured party?Nothing prevents the DoH from releasing the document after it has been published on the web and publicly acknowledged by Obama’s lawyers.

    what obama does or doesn’t do, whether he complains or doesn’t and if he feels injured or not does not change the law. if i get pulled over for speeding can my defense be no one was hurt and no one complained ?

    it’s been rumored nc1 that you are a lawyer ( and a very special one at that ). is this true ? if it is would you advise a client working for the DoH to release the COLB to anyone that asks for it ?

  348. avatar
    bob July 30, 2010 at 10:29 am #

    nc1: If the DoH issued a COLB to the public who would complain about it – who would be an injured party?

    The name of person on the COLB.

    But the State of Hawaii has better things to do than break its own laws to satisfy your whims.

  349. avatar
    misha July 30, 2010 at 10:42 am #

    Majority Will: NC1 is not interested in information that contradicts her version of reality. She’ll have an explanation for how that letter is fraudulent or irrelevant.Man: Look, this isn’t an argument.Mr Vibrating: Yes it is.Man: No it isn’t, it’s just contradiction Yes it is.

    Here’s the complete skit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

  350. avatar
    Majority Will July 30, 2010 at 11:06 am #

    misha:
    Here’s the complete skit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

    I still have the record album of Monty Python Live! At City Center.

    “Pet Shop” is still the best ever. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Parrot

  351. avatar
    ASK Esq July 30, 2010 at 4:11 pm #

    Majority Will:

    misha:
    Here’s the complete skit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

    I still have the record album of Monty Python Live! At City Center.

  352. avatar
    ASK Esq July 30, 2010 at 4:13 pm #

    My comment somehow got entered before I finished. I was just going to say that I actually saw them at City Center. I was about 10 (I have no idea why my father thought it was a good idea to bring a 10 year old to see them, but he was right), and I got Graham Chapman to sign my Playbill. Had I not been 10, I would have kept it.

  353. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 4:50 pm #

    BatGuano: what obama does or doesn’t do, whether he complains or doesn’t and if he feels injured or not does not change the law. if i get pulled over for speeding can my defense be no one was hurt and no one complained ?it’s been rumored nc1 that you are a lawyer ( and a very special one at that ). is this true ? if it is would you advise a client working for the DoH to release the COLB to anyone that asks for it ?

    The speeding ticket is not a good analogy. The law has already been broken and that was the reason for the trafic stop.

    I am not a lawyer. You don’t need to be one to understand the purpose of the UIPA law and its application.

    In Obama’s case – his lawyers have acknowledged to the court that he published a COLB on the web site (FactCheck) – making the information public. The UIPA law restricts the release of documents for privacy protection. When there is no privacy to be protected and there is a legitimate public interest the DoH can release the document. No law is broken, there is no injured party.

    It is a different scenario when an ordinary citizen’s COLB is requested by a third party.
    In that case the DoH cannot release the COLB to somebody else just based on a request, because they have to protect private data.

    Actually this is the case with Obama’s original birth certificate – the DoH cannot release it without his consent.
    The DoH could release his COLB because Obama already made a consent by publicly acknowledging the information posted on the web.

    The fact that DoH refuses to relase the COLB tells me that it would be different from information Obama presented to the public.There is no other logical explanation.

  354. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 30, 2010 at 4:55 pm #

    nc1: The DoH could release his COLB because Obama already made a consent by publicly acknowledging the information posted on the web.

    There is nothing in the Statute about consent. Even if Obama signed a consent form explicitly allowing release of the record, they still couldn’t give anyone a Certified copy of his birth certificate to anyone who did not have a tangible interest in the record.

  355. avatar
    Majority Will July 30, 2010 at 4:57 pm #

    “There is no other logical explanation.”

    There is for sane people.

  356. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 5:20 pm #

    Whatever4: Hawaii HAS a prcess for verifying the information on a COLB, that doesn’t involve the Index data. If the defense contractor wants official verification of the data, he/she can request a Letter of Verification. “Letters of verification may be issued in lieu of certified copies (HRS §338-14.3). This document verifies the existence of a birth/death/marriage/divorce certificate on file with the Department of Health and any other information that the applicant provides to be verified relating to the vital event. (For example, that a certain named individual was born on a certain date at a certain place.) The verification process will not, however, disclose information about the vital event contained within the certificate that is unknown to and not provided by the applicant in the request.”http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/vital-records/vital_records.htmlThis requires the permission of the named individual, of course, but is more information than the index data.

    The key point in your post is that DoH would issue such letter only when the person gives the permission. When an applicant is looking for a job it is reasonable to assume that they would consent to such letter being issued by the DoH. There is no such luck in Obama’s case.

    However, we are talking about the purpose of the birth index data. It has no meaning if it contains only a name. There is no logical reason to ignore the request for birth index data when requestor submits both name and the registration number.

  357. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 5:27 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: There is nothing in the Statute about consent. Even if Obama signed a consent form explicitly allowing release of the record, they still couldn’t give anyone a Certified copy of his birth certificate to anyone who did not have a tangible interest in the record.

    The key word in your statement is “Certified”.
    They could issue a non-certified copy of Obama’s COLB.

  358. avatar
    bovril July 30, 2010 at 5:43 pm #

    From dear Ole NC1

    Dr. Conspiracy: My scenario was very clear – an applicant had to be a US citizen in order to qualify for a job with a defense contractor.

    BS, Utter BS and more BS with extra BS sauce on top.

    It is a monstrous pain in the butt for a “regular” non US citizen to get US clearance but if, for example you have an existing NATO Cosmic clearance you can and not infrequently are given access to TS or even TS/SCI material if relevant to the work yiu will be undertaking.

    As a further example If the information is classed as RELGBR it will be releaseable or workable by UK cleared individuals so long as their local clearance level is appropriate.

    It’s a pain, has to jump through more hoops but it does occur and this is at the worker bee level as well as at the intellgence officer level

    As a real world example, the composite armor of the M1 Abrams tank was actually the British Chobham armor. When the requirement to build, test, handover and use the armor was made, a substantial contingent of British experts, civilian and military were in the US. They required clearance as they were working directly on all parts of the M1 tank, parts of which had, at the time a high security classification. Ergo they had clearance in the US in defense roles, as contractors and secondee’s, as non US citizens…..

    Please, do try and not babble at things you have no idea about, there’s a good muppet.

  359. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 5:43 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Well you were talking about a generic name like Joe Smith. Saying the birth index would be hard to tell from others sharing the same name. That’s why I asked you how many Barack Obama’s do you think were born in Hawaii that there would be confusion over the birth index? Obviously you have problems with how vital statistic documents are created.

    If the certification number is not part of the index data – how do they sort records in the database? You have to have a unique key for each record in the database.

    The only unique identifier in the Hawaii DoH database is the registation number. A refusal to provide the answer when the request for index includes the registration number is ridiculous. I used the name Joe Smith to illustrate how ridiculous that position is.

    They have to have rules that make sense for any name – not just a name that could be unique.

    You know very well that the purpose of the request for Obama’s index data is the verification of the registration number 10641 shown in the COLB published on FactCheck. How do we know that the number really belongs to him? It was blacked out on the first COLB – and it took his campaign two months to come up with a better version of the COLB document.

  360. avatar
    Expelliarmus July 30, 2010 at 6:02 pm #

    nc1:
    They could issue a non-certified copy of Obama’s COLB.

    Which they already HAVE done:
    http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/obama.html

  361. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 6:04 pm #

    bovril: From dear Ole NC1BS, Utter BS and more BS with extra BS sauce on top.It is a monstrous pain in the butt for a “regular” non US citizen to get US clearance but if, for example you have an existing NATO Cosmic clearance…
    Please, do try and not babble at things you have no idea about, there’s a good muppet.

    You are arguing with yourself. I never mentioned anything about non-US citizens being prohibited from the work in the defense industry.

    There are many jobs in the USA that require US citizenship. As an engineer who occasionally look through Job Opening announcements I frequently see this requirement.

    It is obvious that you are not interested in a meaningful dialog but trying to attack me.

  362. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 6:08 pm #

    nc1: You know very well that the purpose of the request for Obama’s index data is the verification of the registration number 10641 shown in the COLB published on FactCheck. How do we know that the number really belongs to him? It was blacked out on the first COLB – and it took his campaign two months to come up with a better version of the COLB document.

    The number was verified later and when pictures of the same document were released it finally showed the registration number, which was close to the registration numbers for twins born in the same hospital around the same time.
    Coincidence? ….

  363. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 6:10 pm #

    As to the index data, check out HRS 338-18(d)

    Haw. Rev. Stat. §338-18(d) states, “Index data consisting of name and sex of the registrant, type of vital event, and such other data as the director may authorize shall be made available to the public.” Refer to link above for HRS §338-18.

    Index data consisting of name and sex of the registrant, and type of event is made available to the public. The director, in accordance with HRS §338-18(d), has not authorized any other data to be made available to the public.

    Index data referred to in HRS §338-18 from vital records in the State of Hawaii is available for inspection at the Department of Health’s Office of Health Status Monitoring at 1250 Punchbowl Street in Honolulu. The public will be asked to provide identification and sign in to inspect the names and sex of all births, deaths and marriages that occurred in the state. Data are maintained in bound copies by type of event with names listed alphabetically by last name.

  364. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 6:25 pm #

    nc1: The key word in your statement is “Certified”.
    They could issue a non-certified copy of Obama’s COLB.

    Not really. Other than the Index data, they do not have the right to release such data.

    HRS 338-18

    §338-18 Disclosure of records. (a) To protect the integrity of vital statistics records, to ensure their proper use, and to ensure the efficient and proper administration of the vital statistics system, it shall be unlawful for any person to permit inspection of, or to disclose information contained in vital statistics records, or to copy or issue a copy of all or part of any such record, except as authorized by this part or by rules adopted by the department of health.

    (b) The department shall not permit inspection of public health statistics records, or issue a certified copy of any such record or part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant has a direct and tangible interest in the record. The following persons shall be considered to have a direct and tangible interest in a public health statistics record:

  365. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 6:26 pm #

    Expelliarmus:
    Which they already HAVE done:
    http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/obama.html

    That’s the only data they can present, the index data…

  366. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 6:26 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    There is nothing in the Statute about consent. Even if Obama signed a consent form explicitly allowing release of the record, they still couldn’t give anyone a Certified copy of his birth certificate to anyone who did not have a tangible interest in the record.

    Correct…

  367. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 6:35 pm #

    BatGuano: just to keep up to date:according to nc1…… there was a fraudulent birth certificate obtained by obama’s grandmother stating that he was born in hawaii ( and therefor, as far as anyone outside the little evil conspiracy was concerned, a legitimate birth certificate ). this was modified because of some unknown reason. then a very complex and accurate forgery of a 2007 COLB was made because they didn’t want to show the amendment that was put on there for……. what reason ????correct ???

    The certificate number was most likely stolen from another individual ( a baby born between August 5 – 11). I learned that Kapiolani Hospital sent their birth registrations to DoH on weekly basis (on Fridays). Therefore, Obama’s birth registration should have been filed on August 11 not August 8.

    Grandma filed the birth registration on August 8, but it could not be immediately completed – baby and the mother were outside the country at the time.

    His birth registation records have been amended – the COLB presented by the FactCheck is a forgery.

    Snopes had an article in April 2008 that said the following:
    “Obama is not a legitimate U.S. Citizen. He has Citizenship established in Kenya, where he is recorded as an Arab-American”

  368. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 6:40 pm #

    NbC: Not really. Other than the Index data, they do not have the right to release such data.HRS 338-18

    Where does the law say that the release of a non-certified copy is prohibited?

  369. avatar
    misha July 30, 2010 at 6:55 pm #

    nc1: It is obvious that you are not interested in a meaningful dialog but trying to attack me.

    With good reason.

    nc1: Snopes had an article in April 2008 that said the following:“Obama is not a legitimate U.S. Citizen. He has Citizenship established in Kenya, where he is recorded as an Arab-American”

    Links please, or I will not believe you. I can’t find anything like this.

  370. avatar
    bob July 30, 2010 at 6:57 pm #

    nc1: The certificate number was most likely stolen from another individual ( a baby born between August 5 – 11).

    And your evidence is…?

    So Hawaii says Obama is born in Hawaii, yet it knows that he’s using someone else’s certificate number, which would indicate that he really wasn’t born in Hawaii (despite Hawaii saying Obama was born in Hawaii)?

    You and Sven should go bowling; the fantasies the two of you could spin….

  371. avatar
    bob July 30, 2010 at 7:00 pm #

    nc1: Grandma filed the birth registration on August 8, but it could not be immediately completed – baby and the mother were outside the country at the time.

    So grandmother went to register a birth without proof of evidence that either the mother or child existed? How, exactly, does that work?

  372. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 30, 2010 at 7:13 pm #

    nc1: Grandma filed the birth registration on August 8, but it could not be immediately completed – baby and the mother were outside the country at the time.

    What part of the law that requires the parents to file the certificate for an unattended birth do you refuse to understand?

  373. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 30, 2010 at 7:27 pm #

    nc1: They could issue a non-certified copy of Obama’s COLB.

    When you get it, be sure and give us a look.

  374. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 7:30 pm #

    nc1: Where does the law say that the release of a non-certified copy is prohibited?

    Did you even read the linked HRS text?

  375. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 7:31 pm #

    nc1: The certificate number was most likely stolen from another individual ( a baby born between August 5 – 11). I learned that Kapiolani Hospital sent their birth registrations to DoH on weekly basis (on Fridays). Therefore, Obama’s birth registration should have been filed on August 11 not August 8.

    No evidence of that either…

  376. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 7:31 pm #

    NbC: As to the index data, check out HRS 338-18(d)
    Haw. Rev. Stat. §338-18(d) states, “Index data consisting of name and sex of the registrant, type of vital event, and such other data as the director may authorize shall be made available to the public.”

    The key phrase is “and such other data as the director may authorize shall be made available to the public”.

    The law does not prevent the relase of registration number even a date of birth – it leaves it at the discretion of the DoH director – Dr. Fukino.

    The spirit of the UIPA law is to provide the access to government records when there is a compelling public interest. There is no question that there is a legitimate public interest in this case.

    Whose privacy would have been violated if the registration number was released to the public? It is a number used in records administration within the DoH. There is no logical reason for preventing its release to the public.

    Prior to the UIPA law adoption (1988) the date of birth and the registration number were part of the index data. Dr. Fukino is denying access to the data that used to be in public domain.

    She is covering for Obama. The registration number shown on his COLB does not belong to him. Just think about the first COLB shown to the public. The number was blacked out. The official explanation is that the campaign was not sure about its significance and they decided to hide it. According to the official story they were in the possession of that document from June 6, 2007 until June 12, 2008 (when the image was published on Daily Kos).

    If the official story were true the campaign had plenty of time to check with the DoH whether the registration number had any significance or not. Keep in mind that the document states that any alteration invalidates the document.

    It is obvious that the offical story does not add up. They did not have the registration number available at the time when the image was posted on Daily Kos. That is why the campaign had to wait for two months to produce a better version despite the fact that public comments on Daily Kos indicated various problems with the image. If they had the original COLB at hand they could have produced a good quality scan of a non-modified COLB shortly afterwards instead of a two months delay.

  377. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 30, 2010 at 7:32 pm #

    nc1 and whatever4: The key point in your post is that DoH would issue such letter only when the person gives the permission

    The key point is that there is nothing in the regulation or the Statute requiring permission for the verification letter.

  378. avatar
    Bovril July 30, 2010 at 7:32 pm #

    nc1: You are arguing with yourself. I never mentioned anything about non-US citizens being prohibited from the work in the defense industry.
    There are many jobs in the USA that require US citizenship. As an engineer who occasionally look through Job Opening announcements I frequently see this requirement.
    It is obvious that you are not interested in a meaningful dialog but trying to attack me.

    Which planet do you come from, do tell.

    You make a patemtly untrue statement unsupported by facts

    You are rebutted with facts and examples

    In your mind this means I am arguing against myself and therefore in support of your statements.

    Pray tell just how delusuional are you..?

    I await your retraction of your statemnet on clearance with avidity

    Unless of course you’re going to pull a Yguy……?

  379. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 7:33 pm #

    nc1: His birth registation records have been amended – the COLB presented by the FactCheck is a forgery.

    No evidence of that either as it shows the requisite raised seal, the signature and all the relevant data has been confirmed by the Department of Health of Hawaii.

    Imagination is no substitute for facts my friend.

    PS: An amended document would show evidence of such. But I guess you are not constrained by logic or reason

  380. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 7:37 pm #

    nc1: Snopes had an article in April 2008 that said the following:
    “Obama is not a legitimate U.S. Citizen. He has Citizenship established in Kenya, where he is recorded as an Arab-American”

    It’s not an article, it’s a posting on a forum filed under urban legends…

    I’m sure all this can be proven, by hospital documents and witnesses. It
    will take time, but Obama is not a legitimate U. S. citizen. He has
    citizenship established in Kenya, where he is recorded as Arab-African.

    Do you even research before you post your nonsense?

  381. avatar
    Jules July 30, 2010 at 7:38 pm #

    nc1:
    The key word in your statement is “Certified”.
    They could issue a non-certified copy of Obama’s COLB.

    So you’re not convinced that the Certification of Live Birth inspected by Factcheck was actually issued by the Hawaii Department of Health, but you will be content with a record that fails to even purport to be genuine?

  382. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 7:46 pm #

    nc1: The spirit of the UIPA law is to provide the access to government records when there is a compelling public interest. There is no question that there is a legitimate public interest in this case.

    There is no legitimate public interest here as 71 lost cases have shown so far. Furthermore, the UIPA law does not provide access to any and all data, and HRS 338-18 provides the rules by which interested parties may gain access to private date concerning birth records

  383. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 7:50 pm #

    So far I fail to see any logic or reason in NC1’s claims.

    1. The document number, which shows up on the actual photographs is within the range of documents granted to children born on the same hospital in the same date range as President Obama.
    2. Now the argument has become that the number must have been stolen from another certificate without ANY supporting evidence.
    3. Every single relevant aspect of the COLB has been verified by the Department of Health of Hawaii, especially the location of his birth.

    anything else is just imaginative speculation while lacking in factual and evidentiary support.

  384. avatar
    bob July 30, 2010 at 7:53 pm #

    nc1: The registration number shown on his COLB does not belong to him.

    So there’s someone else out there with the same registration number, they know it, Hawaii knows it, and no one has said nothing?

    I keep forgetting on which days you allege (without evidence) that grandmom was a fraudster, on which days you allege (again, without evidence) that Hawaii’s in on it, and which days you allege (still no evidence) both at the same time.

  385. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 7:56 pm #

    Prior to the UIPA law adoption (1988) the date of birth and the registration number were part of the index data. Dr. Fukino is denying access to the data that used to be in public domain.

    It is clear that already in 1988, Hawaii was aware of President Obama running for President and was covering up. Has it occurred to you that UIPA

    HRS 92F-2

    (5) Balance the individual privacy interest and the public access interest, allowing access unless it would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy. [L 1988, c 262, pt of §1]

    Se HRS 338-18 as to why birth records are considered to be an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy.

    Combined with

    HRS 92F-11

    (a) All government records are open to public inspection unless access is restricted or closed by law.

    HRS 92F-13 describes documents excempted

    (4) Government records which, pursuant to state or federal law including an order of any state or federal court, are protected from disclosure; and

  386. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 8:07 pm #

    bob: And your evidence is…?So Hawaii says Obama is born in Hawaii, yet it knows that he’s using someone else’s certificate number, which would indicate that he really wasn’t born in Hawaii (despite Hawaii saying Obama was born in Hawaii)?You and Sven should go bowling; the fantasies the two of you could spin….

    Dr. Fukino based her statements about Obama’s Hawaii birth using “vital records”. That does not exclude an amended birth certificate, does it?

    The DoH has been asked to release Obama’s UIPA request to amend his birth certificate and any records including payment receipts for such transaction.

    The request was denied without using the qualifier “if any” which they use when the disclosure of existence of a particular document actually discloses private information.

    Let me clarify – when the request was made for Obama’s amended birth certificate itself the response from DoH was to deny access to such record if any. Therefore they did not confirm its existence because person asking for the record was not entitled to it.

    The DoH response to a request for Obama’s UIPA request to amend his birth certificate was not the same – the DoH did not use the “if any” in their response. The law prescribes how to respond to UIPA requests – if the record did not exist the proper response was to say so. This explanation comes from lawyers in the OIP office – their job is to assist public when dealing with the UIPA law requests.
    By denying the access to a document without using the “if any” the DoH implicitly confirmed its existence.

    We can conclude that Obama submitted a request to amend his birth certificate. Why would he do that – was he not born in the Kapiolani Hospital?

    The COLB image shown to the public is a forgery.

  387. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 8:09 pm #

    The COLB image shown to the public is a forgery.

    No evidence to support this, “if any”

    🙂

  388. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 8:12 pm #

    Read Fukino’s response and it becomes obvious why an ‘if any’ was not relevant

    Section 92F-13, Hawaii Revised Statutes, says that disclosure is not required for government records that are protected from disclosure by state law. Section 338-18, Hawaii Revised Statutes, is just such a law. It prohibits disclosure of vital statistics records to anyone who does not have a direct and tangible interest in the record. Those persons with a direct and tangible interest are listed specifically in the statute. Under section 338-1, Hawaii Revised Statutes, vital statistics records include registration, preparation, and preservation of data pertaining to births and other vital events, as well as related information.

    Therefore, neither a birth certificate nor any information related to a birth certificate may be disclosed to a person who does not have a direct and tangible interest in it. You have not shown that you have such an interest in President Obama’s birth certificate, so we cannot disclose to you the birth certificate or any related information.

    It’s a generic statement about birth records.

  389. avatar
    BatGuano July 30, 2010 at 8:17 pm #

    nc1: Dr. Fukino based her statements about Obama’s Hawaii birth using “vital records”. That does not exclude an amended birth certificate, does it?

    you’ve already stated that you believe obama’s grandmother and some unknown charlatan from the state falsified obama’s birth registration. what need would there be for an amendment ?

  390. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 8:18 pm #

    NbC: It is clear that already in 1988, Hawaii was aware of President Obama running for President and was covering up. Has it occurred to you that UIPA HRS 92F-2Se HRS 338-18 as to why birth records are considered to be an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy.Combined withHRS 92F-11HRS 92F-13 describes documents excempted

    You failed to explain the relationship between a registration number disclosure and a privacy violation. The law leaves it at Dr. Fukino’s discretion to release more index data than just the name and the vital event.

    The registration number does not disclose any private data. There is no logical reason for hiding it – quite the opposite. I have provided an example that a request for index data for a person with a common name is meaningless under the interpretation of the law by Dr. Fukino. It defies a common sense.

  391. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 8:22 pm #

    NbC: No evidence to support this, “if any”

    That is the explanation given by OIP lawyers. It is their job to assist public in using the UIPA law to obtain government records.

  392. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 8:38 pm #

    nc1: The registration number does not disclose any private data. There is no logical reason for hiding it – quite the opposite. I have provided an example that a request for index data for a person with a common name is meaningless under the interpretation of the law by Dr. Fukino. It defies a common sense.

    And yet, that is how index data is made available. Weird how the facts against appear to run counter to your claims.

    As to Fukino being able to define what is index data, do you really believe that she would redefine her position just because someone is interested to find out more about President Obama.

    As to the privacy violation, the Hawaiian law is clear, other than index data, which is defined by Fukino, and was, according to you in 1988 reduced to not include the document number, you and others have no reasonable interest that outweighs any privacy concerns.
    You may not believe that releasing the document number is an invasion of privacy and yet, the Department of Health, after initially verifying that the document appeared to be real, had to revise its comments based on privacy laws.

  393. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 8:39 pm #

    nc1:
    That is the explanation given by OIP lawyers. It is their job to assist public in using the UIPA law to obtain government records.

    I was referring to your claim that the COLB was a fraud. As to the ‘if any’, it is clear from Fukino’s response that it was a generic statement about access to birth record data. No ‘if any’ needed.

  394. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 30, 2010 at 8:40 pm #

    nc1: If the certification number is not part of the index data – how do they sort records in the database? You have to have a unique key for each record in the database.The only unique identifier in the Hawaii DoH database is the registation number. A refusal to provide the answer when the request for index includes the registration number is ridiculous. I used the name Joe Smith to illustrate how ridiculous that position is.They have to have rules that make sense for any name – not just a name that could be unique. You know very well that the purpose of the request for Obama’s index data is the verification of the registration number 10641 shown in the COLB published on FactCheck. How do we know that the number really belongs to him? It was blacked out on the first COLB – and it took his campaign two months to come up with a better version of the COLB document.

    Again what does the certificate number matter if there is only one Barack Hussein Obama who has been born in Hawaii. There isn’t much to cross reference, you have a COLB, you have the index data. You can logically connect the two. It didn’t take two months to come up with a better version. It took someone offering to actually show up as a nonbiased witness when others didn’t.

  395. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 8:42 pm #

    NbC:
    I was referring to your claim that the COLB was a fraud. As to the if any’, it is clear from Fukino’s response that it was a generic statement about access to birth record data. No if any’ needed.

    That birth records exist was something self evident, given the birth announcement and index data so again no “if any” was necessary. As to the claims about access to additional birth certificate data, it was sufficient to point out that such access, like access to the official birth certificate is prohibited by law. The response does not disclose the existence of any amended certificates, it just ignores the request as part of a policy statement on birth certificate data.

    The context is what matters here.

  396. avatar
    bob July 30, 2010 at 8:45 pm #

    nc1: Dr. Fukino based her statements about Obama’s Hawaii birth using “vital records”. That does not exclude an amended birth certificate, does it?

    And it also doesn’t exclude marriage or death certificates, does it? Supposition and speculation is not evidence.

    The DoH has been asked to release Obama’s UIPA request to amend his birth certificate and any records including payment receipts for such transaction.
    The request was denied without using the qualifier “if any” which they use when the disclosure of existence of a particular document actually discloses private information.

    The point of the UIPA is to not disclose when disclosure is not allowed, and that would include informative denials. Only in birfistan is a denial really a winking yes.

  397. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 8:57 pm #

    BatGuano: you’ve already stated that you believe obama’s grandmother and some unknown charlatan from the state falsified obama’s birth registration. what need would there be for an amendment ?

    I did not say that any state offical was involved in the fraudulent birth registration in 1961. I believe that grandmother tried to register Obama’s birth as an unattended birth in Hawaii even though he was born outside the country. That was the meaning of the fraudulent unattended birth comment.

    Just the other day I read about Kapiolani sending birth certificates weekly (on Fridays) to DoH. That makes it clear that the filing date (August 8, 1961) is very suspicious for somebody claiming the Kapiolani birth. That date indicates that registration did not come from the Kapiolani hospital.

    At this point I don’t have any idea what could have been amended on his birth certificate.

  398. avatar
    bob July 30, 2010 at 9:03 pm #

    nc1: I believe that grandmother tried to register Obama’s birth as an unattended birth in Hawaii even though he was born outside the country.

    You believe this despite the lack of evidence, and the lack of explanation how a child’s birth could be registered without the parent?

    Just the other day I read about Kapiolani sending birth certificates weekly (on Fridays) to DoH.

    And what reliable source was that?

  399. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 9:04 pm #

    nc1: Just the other day I read about Kapiolani sending birth certificates weekly (on Fridays) to DoH. That makes it clear that the filing date (August 8, 1961) is very suspicious for somebody claiming the Kapiolani birth. That date indicates that registration did not come from the Kapiolani hospital.

    With your established record of accuracy, I would suggest you post us a link to the evidence that this is how Kapiolani worked.

  400. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 9:12 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Again what does the certificate number matter if there is only one Barack Hussein Obama who has been born in Hawaii. There isn’t much to cross reference, you have a COLB, you have the index data. You can logically connect the two. It didn’t take two months to come up with a better version. It took someone offering to actually show up as a nonbiased witness when others didn’t.

    How do we independently verify that the registration number 10641 really belongs to Obama? So far the only source is the FactCheck image.

    The DoH refusal to provide the birth index data when that registration number was part of the request is suspicious.

    How do we know that Obama’s real registration number is not 11808?

  401. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 30, 2010 at 9:13 pm #

    nc1: Snopes had an article in April 2008 that said the following: “Obama is not a legitimate U.S. Citizen. He has Citizenship established in Kenya, where he is recorded as an Arab-American”

    Yes indeed, this appears on the Snopes forum.

  402. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 9:16 pm #

    nc1: The DoH refusal to provide the birth index data when that registration number was part of the request is suspicious.

    Not at all, the registration number is not part of index data that is released.

  403. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 9:29 pm #

    NbC: With your established record of accuracy, I would suggest you post us a link to the evidence that this is how Kapiolani worked.

    So far I have typed in some of the registration dates for Hawaiian Birth Certificates and they all show registration on Friday. So there is something to be said for this suggestion. If they were forwarded on friday and registered on friday, they must have been sent in Friday morning.
    Obama was born friday evening 7:24PM and his birth was registered on tuesday the 8th.

    There is some evidence to support NC1’s claim, of course, the dataset is too small. What if such certificates were send twice a week? Tue and Friday.

    Let me check

    Nordyke was not signed until the 11th (friday) and filed that day
    Edith Costa Friday born, filed tuesday
    Alan Boote, born Tuesday, filed friday

    So far nothing conclusive and my idea of filing twice a week, once after the weekend and once before, makes sense.

  404. avatar
    NbC July 30, 2010 at 9:30 pm #

    Another, born monday, signed wednesday, filed friday

  405. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 10:28 pm #

    NbC: Not at all, the registration number is not part of index data that is released.

    The UIPA law leaves the decision whether to include the registration number as part of the birth index data to the director of DoH. Dr Fukino could release this number if she wanted to.

    The question is – what logical reason is there to prevent the release of the registration number. There is none. Actually the opposite is true – not releasing the information makes the birth index meaningless.
    I asked this question previously on this thread. I am yet to hear a logical reason that would support hiding of this number from the public.

  406. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 10:33 pm #

    NbC: So far I have typed in some of the registration dates for Hawaiian Birth Certificates and they all show registration on Friday. So there is something to be said for this suggestion. If they were forwarded on friday and registered on friday, they must have been sent in Friday morning.Obama was born friday evening 7:24PM and his birth was registered on tuesday the 8th.There is some evidence to support NC1′s claim, of course, the dataset is too small. What if such certificates were send twice a week? Tue and Friday.Let me checkNordyke was not signed until the 11th (friday) and filed that dayEdith Costa Friday born, filed tuesdayAlan Boote, born Tuesday, filed fridaySo far nothing conclusive and my idea of filing twice a week, once after the weekend and once before, makes sense.

    Check the date for the Kapiolani birth that was not filed on Friday. Was the Friday when the data was supposed to be sent a national holiday? How about the following Friday – was it the holiday too?

  407. avatar
    misha July 30, 2010 at 10:35 pm #

    nc1: I am yet to hear a logical reason that would support hiding of this number from the public.

    Because it’s worth making you miserable.

  408. avatar
    PetJake July 30, 2010 at 10:37 pm #

    misha: James and other Denialists: The Kenya birth scenario is physically impossible:http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/03/obama-born-in-kenya-no.htmlSorry.

    Obama’s birth fairy tale is what’s impossible.

  409. avatar
    misha July 30, 2010 at 10:39 pm #

    PetJake: Obama’s birth fairy tale is what’s impossible.

    I agree. It’s possible he was born in a manger on Mars.

  410. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 10:43 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Yes indeed, this appears on the Snopes forum.

    Thanks for the link.

    It is interesting that Snopes started this story without providing any reference where it came from. You are much more likely to receive an answer from them – could you ask for the source?

  411. avatar
    Majority Will July 30, 2010 at 10:47 pm #

    PetJake:
    Obama’s birth fairy tale is what’s impossible.

    Speaking of fairy tales . . .

    Where’s your training and credentials in forensic science and forensic document examination?

  412. avatar
    misha July 30, 2010 at 10:47 pm #

    nc1: could you ask for the source?

    The source for an urban myth? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha[gasp]hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha[gasp]

  413. avatar
    misha July 30, 2010 at 10:49 pm #

    Majority Will: Where’s your training and credentials in forensic science and forensic document examination?

    The same place where Orly Taitz got her law “degree.”

  414. avatar
    bob July 30, 2010 at 11:01 pm #

    nc1: Actually the opposite is true – not releasing the information makes the birth index meaningless.

    Not at all: It prove Obama was, in fact, born in Hawaii.

    As to why the DoH doesn’t exercise its discretion and release more information: (1) Much better things to do; and (2) birfer track record of never being satisfied.

  415. avatar
    Majority Will July 30, 2010 at 11:01 pm #

    misha:
    The same place where Orly Taitz got her law “degree.”

    Not really. Taft Law school is real (an online institution not accredited by the American Bar Association) and she passed the California bar examination in 2002.

    There are, more than likely, competent, sane attorneys with degrees from Taft. She’s just not one of them.

  416. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 30, 2010 at 11:11 pm #

    nc1:
    How do we independently verify that the registration number 10641 really belongs to Obama?So far the only source is the FactCheck image.The DoH refusal to provide the birth index data when that registration number was part of the request is suspicious.How do we know that Obama’s real registration number is not 11808?

    So lets see you say that you have a problem because there wasn’t a registration number now you’re complaining because there was a registration number. What does it matter to you what the number is? The document was released by Hawaii and is a legal document. Keep spinning your wheels

  417. avatar
    Whatever4 July 30, 2010 at 11:32 pm #

    nc1: I asked this question previously on this thread. I am yet to hear a logical reason that would support hiding of this number from the public.

    The number isn’t random, it has information in it. If you had a few COLBs from different years, you might be able to figure out when someone was born if you had their name and reg #. Since it has no function outside the DOH, that’s infomation that shouldn’t be given out. I wouldn’t want my neighbors going in and figuring out the year I was born.

  418. avatar
    misha July 30, 2010 at 11:37 pm #

    nc1: Thanks for the link.

    What do you call a couple who were taught abstinence only?

    Parents.

  419. avatar
    nc1 July 30, 2010 at 11:47 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): So lets see you say that you have a problem because there wasn’t a registration number now you’re complaining because there was a registration number. What does it matter to you what the number is? The document was released by Hawaii and is a legal document. Keep spinning your wheels

    Instead of spinning my words could you answer a simple question: How do we independently confirm that the registration number 10641 belongs to Obama?

    How do you know that the document presented by the FactCheck is not a forgery?
    You have to trust Obama’s word.
    I would rater verify whether he told the truth. There is no independent confirmation of the registration number. It is very likely that the number 10641 was not present in the original image from June 2008.

    The DoH refused to confirm that they issued the COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007. They have been asked this question several times and refused to answer it.

    If they answered it confirming the official story, who could have complained about it – who would have the injury to file a lawsuit against the DoH – nobody. There is no logical reason for DoH to refuse the confirmation of issuing the COLB to Obama – if the official story were true.
    The only scenario that fits their behavior is the one where the DoH officials know that the COLB presented to the public is a forgery and they keep being silent about it.

  420. avatar
    misha July 30, 2010 at 11:54 pm #

    nc1: The only scenario that fits their behavior is the one where the DoH officials know that the COLB presented to the public is a forgery and they keep being silent about it.

    Stay up tonight. A flying saucer will land on your roof.

  421. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 30, 2010 at 11:55 pm #

    nc1:
    Instead of spinning my words could you answer a simple question: How do we independently confirm that the registration number 10641 belongs to Obama?How do you know that the document presented by the FactCheck is not a forgery?
    You have to trust Obama’s word.
    I would rater verify whether he told the truth. There is no independent confirmation of the registration number.It is very likely that the number 10641 was not present in the original image from June 2008.
    The DoH refused to confirm that they issued the COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007. They have been asked this question several times and refused to answer it.If they answered it confirming the official story, who could have complained about it – who would have the injury to file a lawsuit against the DoH – nobody.There is no logical reason for DoH to refuse the confirmation of issuing the COLB to Obama – if the official story were true.
    The only scenario that fits their behavior is the one where the DoH officials know that the COLB presented to the public is a forgery and they keep being silent about it.

    Lets just question everything then right? That’s essentially what you’re saying. You complain when you can’t see the number, you complain when you can. Now why don’t we just say how do we know its the real Janice Okubo who released statements verifying that Obama was born in Hawaii? It could easily have been a doppleganger! How do we know it was really factcheck that posted it? It could have been someone spoofing their website. How do we know that we’re really writing to each other? We could all live in the Matrix. See how ridiculous your arguments are and how dangerously paranoid. Don’t you think if anyone posted a forgery that DOH wouldn’t have jumped on it? Privacy laws at that point would be null and void if it was a forgery. DOH wouldn’t release statements saying they verified the records on file and Obama was born in Hawaii if it was a forgery. What would be the point of a forgery?

    They have confirmed the information several times but you choose to ignore it each and every time.

  422. avatar
    Majority Will July 31, 2010 at 12:05 am #

    See how ridiculous your arguments are and how dangerously paranoid.

    No, she doesn’t. And she never will. Her motivation is sickening and obvious.

  423. avatar
    NbC July 31, 2010 at 12:28 am #

    nc1: Instead of spinning my words could you answer a simple question: How do we independently confirm that the registration number 10641 belongs to Obama?

    How do you know that the document presented by the FactCheck is not a forgery?

    It has the requisite raised seal, the data is confirmed by the DOH where it matters and it is signed.

    What more do you need?

  424. avatar
    NbC July 31, 2010 at 12:29 am #

    nc1: The DoH refused to confirm that they issued the COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007. They have been asked this question several times and refused to answer it.

    Actually they confirmed it before they realized that per their own privacy laws they could not comment on it.
    Do you not believe in government following the rules of law?

  425. avatar
    NbC July 31, 2010 at 12:29 am #

    nc1: The only scenario that fits their behavior is the one where the DoH officials know that the COLB presented to the public is a forgery and they keep being silent about it.

    There is a much better scenario but that’s one you refuse to consider.

  426. avatar
    misha July 31, 2010 at 12:32 am #

    Majority Will: Her motivation is sickening and obvious.

    That’s exactly what it is. Remember Woodward and Bernstein? Dozens of reporters want to be next. Yet they’re all part of the cover-up. Yeah, right.

  427. avatar
    Expelliarmus July 31, 2010 at 12:57 am #

    nc1: How do we independently confirm that the registration number 10641 belongs to Obama?

    How is his registration number relevant to anything? Where in the Constitution does it say that Presidents must publish their birth certificate registration number?

    The head of the Department of Health in Hawaii says that state records show that Obama was born in Hawaii. The Governor of the state of Hawaii says that state records show that Obama was born in Hawaii. They’ve published the index data.

    That’s all anyone needs to know.

    You’ve just invented a red herring of a certificate number, and you would invent similar specious arguments over any other document that could be produced.

  428. avatar
    misha July 31, 2010 at 1:14 am #

    nc1: How do we independently confirm that the registration number 10641 belongs to Obama?

    Lose sleep about it, please.

  429. avatar
    SluggoJD July 31, 2010 at 2:38 am #

    misha:
    Stay up tonight. A flying saucer will land on your roof.

    And with any luck nbc1, ace detective and habitual deceiver, it will beam you away…far, far away…

    so your body can join your mind.

  430. avatar
    Lupin July 31, 2010 at 2:43 am #

    nc1: The only scenario that fits their behavior is the one where the DoH officials know that the COLB presented to the public is a forgery and they keep being silent about it.

    The only scenario that explains YOUR behavior has you wearing a hood and burning crosses.

  431. avatar
    SluggoJD July 31, 2010 at 2:49 am #

    nc1:
    The certificate number was most likely stolen from another individual ( a baby born between August 5 – 11).I learned that Kapiolani Hospital sent their birth registrations to DoH on weekly basis (on Fridays). Therefore, Obama’s birth registration should have been filed on August 11 not August 8.Grandma filed the birth registration on August 8, but it could not be immediately completed – baby and the mother were outside the country at the time.His birth registation records have been amended – the COLB presented by the FactCheck is a forgery.Snopes had an article in April 2008 that said the following:
    “Obama is not a legitimate U.S. Citizen.He has Citizenship established in Kenya, where he is recorded as an Arab-American”

    See nbc1, this is a perfect example of your deception.

    Snope’s posting quotes “an article out today.” Yes, snopes didn’t put the article itself in quotation marks, but honest people, as well as people with a brain larger than a rice krispie, can easily tell that snopes is quoting “an article out today.”

    But you deceive. You pretend, just like PooPooPolarik, that snopes is the one who said “Obama blah blah blah” Perhaps you are DrKate, or some other totally bonkers nutcase, or perhaps you are TexasDarlin, a devious wench…I dunno, but you are evil.

    http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=29227

    Here is the link to the snopes post. Every single poster in the thread ridicules the “article out today” that snopes posts about – even snopes! And it is posted under the main heading “Urban Legends.”

    You do know what an urban legend is, don’t you? Of course, but you ignore that part too, and come here and post crapola that you know is crapola, because you are crapola.

    Like I said, you are evil.

  432. avatar
    Keith July 31, 2010 at 4:36 am #

    nc1: Snopes had an article in April 2008 that said the following:
    “Obama is not a legitimate U.S. Citizen. He has Citizenship established in Kenya, where he is recorded as an Arab-American”

    Maybe in the part of the article where they are describing the lunatic myth they are debunking. Certainly not in the conclusion.

    Birthers and other whackjobs like Sovereignists like to do this trick when reading court rulings too. They cut and paste for their argument the part of the ruling where the judge is describing the petitioner’s claims, and ignore the part of the ruling where the judge repudiates those claims.

  433. avatar
    Keith July 31, 2010 at 4:50 am #

    nc1:
    Thanks for the link.
    It is interesting that Snopes started this story without providing any reference where it came from. You are much more likely to receive an answer from them – could you ask for thesource?

    Snopes didn’t start the ‘story’. Some anonymous poster started a thread on their forum.

    Just because YOU post here a libelous assertion that Obama’s grandmother committed fraud doesn’t mean that the Doc started the story.

    What a ridiculous load of manure.

  434. avatar
    nc1 July 31, 2010 at 5:46 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Lets just question everything then right? That’s essentially what you’re saying. You complain when you can’t see the number, you complain when you can. Now why don’t we just say how do we know its the real Janice Okubo who released statements verifying that Obama was born in Hawaii? It could easily have been a doppleganger! How do we know it was really factcheck that posted it? It could have been someone spoofing their website. How do we know that we’re really writing to each other? We could all live in the Matrix. See how ridiculous your arguments are and how dangerously paranoid. Don’t you think if anyone posted a forgery that DOH wouldn’t have jumped on it? Privacy laws at that point would be null and void if it was a forgery. DOH wouldn’t release statements saying they verified the records on file and Obama was born in Hawaii if it was a forgery. What would be the point of a forgery?They have confirmed the information several times but you choose to ignore it each and every time.

    There is no point debating you. We are going in circles. You are not going to change your opinion. At the same time you have not provided a reasonable explanation that would cause me to change my opinion. If you had a logical explanation on why is it OK for DoH to ignore requests for registration number confirmation or why they could not confirm that the COLB was indeed issued to Obama on June 6, 2007 post it as a response, otherwise I am not going to engage in endless debate.

  435. avatar
    Jules July 31, 2010 at 5:57 am #

    Keith: Just because YOU post here a libelous assertion that Obama’s grandmother committed fraud doesn’t mean that the Doc started the story.

    NC1 can rest assured that he/she cannot be successfully sued for libel for his/her unfounded allegations of criminal wrongdoing by Obama’s grandmother. Defamatory statements have to be made against a living person to give rise to a claim for libel or slander.

    NC1 could also go and dance on the grave of Obama’s grandmother, provided that he/she does not trespass.

  436. avatar
    nc1 July 31, 2010 at 6:02 am #

    NbC: It has the requisite raised seal, the data is confirmed by the DOH where it matters and it is signed.What more do you need?

    Sure, FactCheck verified it.

  437. avatar
    nc1 July 31, 2010 at 6:09 am #

    Keith: Snopes didn’t start the story’. Some anonymous poster started a thread on their forum. Just because YOU post here a libelous assertion that Obama’s grandmother committed fraud doesn’t mean that the Doc started the story. What a ridiculous load of manure.

    The story was posted by the person using the name SNOPES – is this not the blog owner?

  438. avatar
    AnotherBird July 31, 2010 at 6:40 am #

    nc1:
    There is no point debating you. We are going in circles.You are not going to change your opinion. At the same time you have not provided a reasonable explanation that would cause me to change my opinion.If you had a logical explanation on why is it OK for DoH to ignore requests for registration number confirmation or why they could not confirm that the COLB was indeed issued to Obama on June 6, 2007 post it as a response, otherwise I am not going to engage in endless debate.

    It seems that you got the picture all wrong. The problem isn’t Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) rebuttals, but your arguments. You have provided absolutely nothing to support your arguments.

    Talk about “going in circles,” you seem fixated on things that don’t support your argument.

    There is absolutely nothing that will change your opinion. You have been repeatably shown to be wrong for almost 2 years now. However, you keep on returning to those same debunked arguments.

    You state that the Department of Health didn’t “confirm that the COLB was indeed issued … on June 6, 2007.” It is not logical to place the date of issuance of a copy of a document over the existence of the original document. The state of Hawaii has confirmed that they are in possession of the original document. The fact is more important than the date of issuance, as another copy can be issued again.

    The only thing that might change is your deep hatred for Obama, but even that I doubt will change.

  439. avatar
    AnotherBird July 31, 2010 at 6:49 am #

    nc1:
    Sure, FactCheck verified it.

    nc1:
    The story was posted by the person using the name SNOPES – is this not the blog owner?

    There are people who do actual genuine research and check their facts. Let us repeat slowly.

    —–

    The

    state

    of

    Hawaii

    has

    confirmed

    they

    have

    Obama’s

    original

    birth

    certificate.

    ——–

    End of story.

  440. avatar
    Keith July 31, 2010 at 6:51 am #

    nc1:
    The story was posted by the person using the name SNOPES – is this not the blog owner?

    I expect you are right on that. I misread the link and made a mistake.

    See how easy that is? It only takes seven keystrokes to admit one’s shortcomings.

    So Snopes was bringing the story up to bring it to the attention of his/her readers for comment, and not endorsing it in any way. How does that fact further your argument?

  441. avatar
    nc1 July 31, 2010 at 7:15 am #

    AnotherBird: It seems that you got the picture all wrong. The problem isn’t Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) rebuttals, but your arguments. You have provided absolutely nothing to support your arguments. Talk about “going in circles,” you seem fixated on things that don’t support your argument.There is absolutely nothing that will change your opinion. You have been repeatably shown to be wrong for almost 2 years now. However, you keep on returning to those same debunked arguments.You state that the Department of Health didn’t “confirm that the COLB was indeed issued … on June 6, 2007.” It is not logical to place the date of issuance of a copy of a document over the existence of the original document. The state of Hawaii has confirmed that they are in possession of the original document. The fact is more important than the date of issuance, as another copy can be issued again.The only thing that might change is your deep hatred for Obama, but even that I doubt will change.

    Two years ago at this time I was enjoying my Mediterranean vacation blissfully unaware of the eligibility issue.
    You have no idea about the content of the Obama’s original birth certificate. You only assume that it came from the Kapiolani hospital. The first press-release issued by Dr. Fukino says nothing about the Hawaii birth being confirmed by the original birth certificate. In her second press-release she said that “vital records” show that Obama was born in the Hawaii.

    Nothing she said eliminates the possibility that she used an Amended birth certificate as a source for her statement. We simply don’t know for sure.
    There is plenty of circumstantial evidence that the official birthplace story is a fabrication. I am not going to repeat all of those because I have done it many times already.
    The reason I am emphasizing the confirmation of the COLB being issued to Obama on June 6, 2007 is simple – this document is the ONLY tangible piece of evidence mentioning Obama’s birthplace. The basic test whether it represents a legitimate document or a forgery is the question to DoH whether they issued it on that particular date.
    It puzzles me that there is no answer to such a trivial question – WTF?
    There is no logical explanation for both Obama’s refusal to release the birth certificate and for DoH to avoid providing the data that should have been released to the public upon request if the official birthplace story were true.

    If you don’t look into the COLB issue in isolation – the SSA number from CT does not make any sense for a person born and residing in Hawaii without any known residency in Connecticut. We could go on and on about other circumstantial evidence pointing out that the official birthplace story is highly suspicious.

    Unless there is a new data available to the public I am done debating the COLB authenticity with regular Obots on this blog. I learned that you have no explanation for the DoH behavior and it speaks volumes to me.

  442. avatar
    nc1 July 31, 2010 at 7:30 am #

    AnotherBird: There are people who do actual genuine research and check their facts. Let us repeat slowly.—–ThestateofHawaiihasconfirmedtheyhaveObama’soriginalbirthcertificate.——–End of story.

    What is the content of the original document: was it submitted by the grandmother or the Kapiolani hospital?

    The File date does not match the registration number shown on the COLB for birth registration to have been filed by the Kapiolani hospital (registrations sent weekly on Fridays to DoH).

    Thanks to the Nordyke long form birth certificates we have an excellent reference point to judge Obama’s COLB data. The official birthplace story does not add up.

    Obama could have ended the birthplace debate at any point during the last two years – he only needs to release the original birth certificate that is in line with the official birthplace story. It is so simple to do, yet he refused it.

  443. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 31, 2010 at 7:34 am #

    nc1: The story was posted by the person using the name SNOPES – is this not the blog owner?

    Yes, and yes. They said that the found the story on the Internet. It’s what they do. They also debunk and confirm stories on the Internet after they research them. This was a very early version of the story (pre Berg). Subsequently Snopes has published many article debunking that and other fanciful claims about Obama’s eligibility.

  444. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 31, 2010 at 7:43 am #

    Keith: Maybe in the part of the article where they are describing the lunatic myth they are debunking. Certainly not in the conclusion.

    It wasn’t an article at all. Snopes has articles where they present some Internet rumor or fanciful claim and then describe their research and then conclude the veracity of the story.

    This was a forum posting describing a new rumor. They wrote: Comment: “Today, we have a new matter before us. There is an article out today on the internet that says…”

    It would be utterly crazy for anyone to assert that Snopes is lending any credibility to this claim in such a context.

    By the way, I wrote about this Snopes forum comment back in February of 2009.

  445. avatar
    nc1 July 31, 2010 at 7:51 am #

    Keith: I expect you are right on that. I misread the link and made a mistake. See how easy that is? It only takes seven keystrokes to admit one’s shortcomings.So Snopes was bringing the story up to bring it to the attention of his/her readers for comment, and not endorsing it in any way. How does that fact further your argument?

    If it is only an urban myth – it does not further my argument. I was curious who originated the story. I did not look around the Snopes web site – just clicked on the link submitted by Dr. C and started reading the post without looking above the original post.

    I have a question about Snopes: They posted a story about Queen’s hospital being Obama’s birthplace and changed it last year to Kapiolani. This happened several months after the inauguration. It is interesting that no Obama supporter alerted them to correct the “error” for such a long time. Only after the WND started asking questions about authenticity of Obama’s letter to Kapiolani, did the Snopes change their story.

    How do you explain the fact that they did not know what the offical story about the birth hospital was, almost a year after the first eligibility lawsuit was filed? This was one of the web sites dedicated to debunking myths about Obama – was it not?

  446. avatar
    Jules July 31, 2010 at 8:02 am #

    nc1: What is the content of the original document: was it submitted by the grandmother or the Kapiolani hospital?

    The claims about the grandmother reporting the birth have addressed. The law of the time would have required that a parent report an unattended birth or, where it was impossible, for the registrar to look into the matter and complete the registration form themselves. You still have not explained how the grandmother would explain away the absence of any baby or parent.

    nc1: The File date does not match the registration number shown on the COLB for birth registration to have been filed by the Kapiolani hospital (registrations sent weekly on Fridays to DoH).

    Thanks to the Nordyke long form birth certificates we have an excellent reference point to judge Obama’s COLB data. The official birthplace story does not add up.

    Again, this has been addressed. The certificate number was assigned at the end of processing, after the paperwork had been filed with the Hawaii Department of Health. The processing of all certificates in the exact order of receipt would require investment of additional resources to prevent disruption to the order. What would be the point of having such a system? Is there any harm if a registration is processed otherwise than the order in which it was received?

    nc1: Obama could have ended the birthplace debate at any point during the last two years – he only needs to release the original birth certificate that is in line with the official birthplace story. It is so simple to do, yet he refused it.

    You presuppose that the Hawaii Department of Health still issues certified photocopies of the original certificate. My understanding is that they have said that they do not. What evidence do you have that they do in fact issue certified photocopies?

  447. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 31, 2010 at 8:18 am #

    nc1: If it is only an urban myth – it does not further my argument. I was curious who originated the story. I did not look around the Snopes web site – just clicked on the link submitted by Dr. C and started reading the post without looking above the original post.

    I have a question about Snopes: They posted a story about Queen’s hospital being Obama’s birthplace and changed it last year to Kapiolani. This happened several months after the inauguration. It is interesting that no Obama supporter alerted them to correct the “error” for such a long time. Only after the WND started asking questions about authenticity of Obama’s letter to Kapiolani, did the Snopes change their story.

    How do you explain the fact that they did not know what the offical story about the birth hospital was, almost a year after the first eligibility lawsuit was filed? This was one of the web sites dedicated to debunking myths about Obama – was it not?

    I attempted to track down where the “born in Kenya” story came from without any definitive success. I discussed my journey in a pair of articles from February of 2009:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/02/where-did-born-in-africa-start-part-1/
    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/02/where-did-born-in-africa-start-part-2/

    There really isn’t much “official” about the story of the hospital where Barack Obama was born. The Hawaii Advertiser attributes the location to “family sources.” That makes sense when the original newspaper announcements do not say, and the hospitals will not comment.

    It appears that the original mistake in the name of the hospital came from a high school newspaper article. “The Rainbow Edition”, a school paper in Hawaii, interviewed Obama’s younger half-sister Maya Soetoro-Ng (herself born in Indonesia) and wrote (not quoting Maya) that the President was born at Queens hospital. (Of course Maya had no reason to know the hospital).

    The confusion over hospitals stems from the lack of official sources. The closest thing we have to an official source is Barack Obama himself, in his congratulatory letter to Kapi’olani on the occasion of their 100th anniversary.

    The important thing when considering contradictory reports of an event is where the information comes from. None of the reports (some later corrected) that Barack Obama was born at Queens hospital say where the information comes from, and lacking a knowledgeable source, they mean nothing. Also, since Kapi’olani was Queen of Hawaii, it is quite possible that this is the genesis of the confusion with Queen’s Hospital (named for a different queen).

    What I find fascinating is that from a discussion over whether it was Queens or Kapi’olani, comes the conclusion that Barack Obama wasn’t born in a hospital at all.

  448. avatar
    Jules July 31, 2010 at 8:44 am #

    nc1: The reason I am emphasizing the confirmation of the COLB being issued to Obama on June 6, 2007 is simple – this document is the ONLY tangible piece of evidence mentioning Obama’s birthplace. The basic test whether it represents a legitimate document or a forgery is the question to DoH whether they issued it on that particular date.

    The document already contains a signature and seal to confirm that it was issued on June 6, 2007. If the certification on a public document itself is not sufficient to establish its authenticity, then what is the point in issuing a new certification that can be subject to the same allegation of forgery? (The one case where a further certification of a birth record would be necessary is where it needs to be authenicated for use abroad. This requires the further certification of the Hawaii Secretary of State.)

    nc1: If you don’t look into the COLB issue in isolation – the SSA number from CT does not make any sense for a person born and residing in Hawaii without any known residency in Connecticut.

    It is definitely possible to obtain a Social Security Number that corresponds to a state other than the state of birth. It was definitely not necessary (or even customary) in 1961 to apply for an SSN immediately after birth. For this reason, the SSN is pretty much irrelevant to Obama’s place of birth. (People who know where I was born and raised would be surprised to know my SSN prefix. It corresponds with the place where my family moved a couple years after I was born, even though we lived there very briefly.)

    I have heard assertions that Obama’s SSN was issued in the mid-1970s. However, in the absence of being told the basis for this belief, I assume that it may well have been issued before or after 1973. If it was issued in 1973, then the SSN was a function of the office where the card was issued, which does not necessarily correspond with the place where the person lived. If it was issued after 1973, it was a function of the mailing address on the application.

    One possibility is that Obama’s SSN application was submitted in a Connecticut office by either parent during a trip when Obama visited his father in Massachusetts. My point is not that this is the case or a possibility that needs to be disproven, but rather that the place of issuance of an SSN is not a reliable indicator of place of birth.

  449. avatar
    Majority Will July 31, 2010 at 9:12 am #

    Jules:
    The document already contains a signature and seal to confirm that it was issued on June 6, 2007. If the certification on a public document itself is not sufficient to establish its authenticity, then what is the point in issuing a new certification that can be subject to the same allegation of forgery? (The one case where a further certification of a birth record would be necessary is where it needs to be authenicated for use abroad. This requires the further certification of the Hawaii Secretary of State.)
    It is definitely possible to obtain a Social Security Number that corresponds to a state other than the state of birth. It was definitely not necessary (or even customary) in 1961 to apply for an SSN immediately after birth. For this reason, the SSN is pretty much irrelevant to Obama’s place of birth. (People who know where I was born and raised would be surprised to know my SSN prefix. It corresponds with the place where my family moved a couple years after I was born, even though we lived there very briefly.)I have heard assertions that Obama’s SSN was issued in the mid-1970s. However, in the absence of being told the basis for this belief, I assume that it may well have been issued before or after 1973. If it was issued in 1973, then the SSN was a function of the office where the card was issued, which does not necessarily correspond with the place where the person lived. If it was issued after 1973, it was a function of the mailing address on the application.One possibility is that Obama’s SSN application was submitted in a Connecticut office by either parent during a trip when Obama visited his father in Massachusetts. My point is not that this is the case or a possibility that needs to be disproven, but rather that the place of issuance of an SSN is not a reliable indicator of place of birth.

    Let me help save some time.

    Naturalized citizen’s (NC1) response . . .

    “But . . . .”

    (repeat ad infinitum)

    She doesn’t want the truth.

  450. avatar
    AnotherBird July 31, 2010 at 10:41 am #

    nc1:
    What is the content of the original document: was it submitted by the grandmother or the Kapiolani hospital?
    The File date does not match the registration number shown on the COLB for birth registration to have been filed by the Kapiolani hospital (registrations sent weekly on Fridays to DoH).
    Thanks to the Nordyke long form birth certificates we have an excellent reference point to judge Obama’s COLB data. The official birthplace story does not add up.Obama could have ended the birthplace debate at any point during the last two years – he only needs to release the original birth certificate that is in line with the official birthplace story.It is so simple to do, yet he refused it.

    You still seem to be confused. If the information on the copy of the original document is different that the original document then it is invalid. Also, the state of Hawaii has the legal right seek litigation to rectify the fact that they were harmed.

    Are you suggesting that two college students will flight from around the world just for the pregnant wife to visit her mother-in-law. When the trip could have taken several days. Even a flight to the continental US wouldn’t make sense.

    The Nordyke twin’s birth certificate support nothing in your arguments. All it does is give valid reason why the move to computerized records are adventitious over paper and pencil records.

    What you seem to not understand. First of all there is no debate. Most people accept the Obama is a natural born citizen just by the fact that he was born in one of the 50 states. His birth certificate confirms this fact. Actually, the fact that he was able to run as president or vice-president is the strongest fact.

    At one point your doubts would have been valid enough to debate the facts. However, every law has been reviewed and they only re-enforce Obama’s natural born citizen status. The state of Hawaii has even had to explicitly state that Obama is a natural born citizen. So, on the issue of doubt you have nothing.

    All you have are what if’s and maybe’s.

  451. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 31, 2010 at 10:43 am #

    Jules: I have heard assertions that Obama’s SSN was issued in the mid-1970s.

    The ranges of numbers issued within a time period is known, and indeed the Obama SSN comes from the 1970’s. You can look up “042-68” at http://stevemorse.org/ssn/ssn.html and it will return Connecticut, 1976-1977 which corresponds to what is reported as Obama’s first job at Baskin-Robbins.

    The problem with all of this discussion is the birther contention that anything about Obama which cannot be proved to be exactly as expected is evidence that he was born in Kenya.

  452. avatar
    Keith July 31, 2010 at 10:47 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: It wasn’t an article at all.

    Yeah, I spotted that after my first comment.

    Jules: Again, this has been addressed. The certificate number was assigned at the end of processing, after the paperwork had been filed with the Hawaii Department of Health. The processing of all certificates in the exact order of receipt would require investment of additional resources to prevent disruption to the order. What would be the point of having such a system? Is there any harm if a registration is processed otherwise than the order in which it was received?

    In fact it makes MUCH sense that they would alphabetize the batch by last name. It’s a manual system don’t forget. Paper files getting passed around the office from one desk to another, maybe two or more clerks involved in indexing the record, another set of clerks verifying all the data fields are filled in and summarized for the Feds, etc. During this process, if somebody has a query about the records, they have to find whose desk it is on and that would be by name. In this scenario Nordyke would then come before Obama.

  453. avatar
    bob July 31, 2010 at 11:07 am #

    nc1: Unless there is a new data available to the public I am done debating the COLB authenticity with regular Obots on this blog. I learned that you have no explanation for the DoH behavior and it speaks volumes to me.

    The only volume-speaking behavior is your own.

    You expect a government agency to break its own laws, or otherwise act completely to your whims, as if it has nothing better to do, or other policies in play.

    Your beliefs are based on nothing but speculation; you have no evidence.

    You repeatedly say, “the only logical conclusion is….” when your doing so violates Occam’s Razor by ignoring the most obvious conclusion.

    You engage in class goalpost shifting: Each piece of evidence is insufficient, and thus you require something more.

    Your intense skepticism is limited only to Obama, yet you seem unconcerned that you’ve never seen Bush’s birth certificate, know his certificate number, the name of the doctor who (allegedly) delivered him, etc.

  454. avatar
    NbC July 31, 2010 at 2:51 pm #

    nc1: If you had a logical explanation on why is it OK for DoH to ignore requests for registration number confirmation or why they could not confirm that the COLB was indeed issued to Obama on June 6, 2007 post it as a response, otherwise I am not going to engage in endless debate.

    Because the law prohibits them from doing so.

  455. avatar
    NbC July 31, 2010 at 4:44 pm #

    NbC: Let me check

    See the following table

  456. avatar
    Expelliarmus July 31, 2010 at 8:17 pm #

    OK, I’ve found the revision history for the passport law — It’s title 22 US Code, section 217a — which currently provides that a passport is good for 10 years.

    Here is the revision history — I have bolded the parts that would impact renewal periods in the 60’s:

    AMENDMENTS
    1982 – Pub. L. 97-241 substituted provision that a passport be
    valid for a period of ten years from issuance
    and that the
    Secretary of State could limit the period to less than ten years in
    an individual case or on a general basis by regulation for
    provision that a passport be limited to a period of not more than
    five years, that the Secretary of State could limit the passport to
    a shorter period, and that a valid passport outstanding as of the
    effective date of Pub. L. 90-428 be valid for a period of five
    years from the date of issue, except where such passport was
    limited to a shorter period by the Secretary.
    1968 – Pub. L. 90-428 substituted provisions that passport be
    limited to a period of not more than five years
    , though the
    Secretary of State may limit it to a shorter period and provisions
    as to the length of validity of passports outstanding as of the
    effective date of Pub. L. 90-428 for provisions that a passport or
    passport visa be limited to a period of three years, that a
    passport be renewed pursuant to regulations of the Secretary for a
    period not to exceed two years, provided that the final date of
    expiration not be more than five years
    from the original date of
    issue, that the Secretary be authorized to limit the validity of a
    passport, passport visa, or period of renewal of a passport to less
    than two years, and that the charge for the issue of an original
    passport be $9.00 and the charge for the renewal be $5.00.
    1959 – Pub. L. 86-267 substituted “three years” for “two years”,
    and “five years” for “four years”.

    1932 – Act May 16, 1932, among other changes, increased payment
    for renewals from $2 to $5, for issue of original passport from $5
    to $9, and restored final expiration date of renewal passport to
    four years from six-year period.
    1930 – Act July 1, 1930, among other changes, provided for $2
    payment for renewal of passport, $5 payment for issue of an
    original passport, and changed from four to six years the final
    expiration date of renewal passport.

    Reference: http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/22C4.txt

    So basically, prior to 1959, it looks like a passport was good for 2 years but could be renewed (extended) for up to 4 years.

    From 1959 -1968, a passport was generally good for 3 years, but could be renewed (extended) for up to 5 years.

    From 1968-1982, a passport was good for 5 years — if someone had a previously issued 3-year passport, they could get +2 year extension — which is what Stanley Ann did in 1968, when she got her 1965-issued passport extended through 1970.

    After 1982, passports were good for 10 years.

    So nothing in the documentation excludes the possibility that Stanley Ann had a previously issued passport — but the earliest passport that we have documentation for is one that was issued in 1965.

  457. avatar
    Majority Will August 1, 2010 at 10:29 am #

    bob:
    The only volume-speaking behavior is your own.You expect a government agency to break its own laws, or otherwise act completely to your whims, as if it has nothing better to do, or other policies in play.Your beliefs are based on nothing but speculation; you have no evidence.You repeatedly say, “the only logical conclusion is….” when your doing so violates Occam’s Razor by ignoring the most obvious conclusion.You engage in class goalpost shifting: Each piece of evidence is insufficient, and thus you require something more.Your intense skepticism is limited only to Obama, yet you seem unconcerned that you’ve never seen Bush’s birth certificate, know his certificate number, the name of the doctor who (allegedly) delivered him, etc.

    There’s no denying that George and his clan are all bushbabies.

  458. avatar
    nc1 August 2, 2010 at 8:30 pm #

    Jules: …One possibility is that Obama’s SSN application was submitted in a Connecticut office by either parent during a trip when Obama visited his father in Massachusetts. My point is not that this is the case or a possibility that needs to be disproven, but rather that the place of issuance of an SSN is not a reliable indicator of place of birth.

    You need to check your timeline. In 1977-1979 his father was in Kenya. His mother was living in Indonesia and he was living in Hawaii with his grandparents. There is no source indicating that Obama has ever been a resident of Connecticut

    There is quite a distance between Hawaii and Connecticut – why would a high school kid apply for a SSN number in a state so far away from Honolulu when he could have applied in the local office – assuming that he had been eligible to apply.

    However, if he had not been eligible to apply for a legitimate SSN number and obtained one later on in life through fraud – that would explain the known facts.

    The earliest reports of him using this SSN number are from 1986. If he obtained a number legitimately in 1970’s you would expect that the number would have been used earlier than 1986.

    The SSN number indicates that the official birthplace story is a fabrication.

  459. avatar
    sfjeff August 2, 2010 at 8:48 pm #

    “However, if he had not been eligible to apply for a legitimate SSN number and obtained one later on in life through fraud – that would explain the known facts.”

    Except none of the known ‘facts’ indicate that there was ever any fraud.

    “The SSN number indicates that the official birthplace story is a fabrication.”

    No. You have yet to link any relationship to a SS number and a birthplace. It really very simple- if you are convinced that there was fraud, find actual evidence, rather than your imagination.

  460. avatar
    nc1 August 2, 2010 at 8:55 pm #

    bob: The only volume-speaking behavior is your own.You expect a government agency to break its own laws, or otherwise act completely to your whims, as if it has nothing better to do, or other policies in play.Your beliefs are based on nothing but speculation; you have no evidence.You repeatedly say, “the only logical conclusion is….” when your doing so violates Occam’s Razor by ignoring the most obvious conclusion.You engage in class goalpost shifting: Each piece of evidence is insufficient, and thus you require something more.Your intense skepticism is limited only to Obama, yet you seem unconcerned that you’ve never seen Bush’s birth certificate, know his certificate number, the name of the doctor who (allegedly) delivered him, etc.

    1. The purpose of the UIPA law is to provide transparency in government by allowing access to government records while restricting access in some cases to protect privacy.

    Whose privacy would have been violated if DoH confirmed that Obama’s COLB was indeed issued by that office on June 6, 2007?

    Whose privacy would have been violated if DoH confirmed that registration number 10641 belonged to Obama?

    Keep in mind that Obama’s lawyers have already submitted a statement to the court confirming that Obama stands behind the images posted on FactCheck.

    2. Could you point to any source reporting about Bush being born in a foreign country?
    We know that the birther movement was started by liberals challenging McCain’s eligibility.

    If there had been any doubts about Bush being born in the USA they would have challenged him about it. Could you imagine Dan Rather and his ilk passing on such an opportunity?

  461. avatar
    nc1 August 2, 2010 at 8:59 pm #

    sfjeff: “However, if he had not been eligible to apply for a legitimate SSN number and obtained one later on in life through fraud – that would explain the known facts.”Except none of the known facts’ indicate that there was ever any fraud. “The SSN number indicates that the official birthplace story is a fabrication.”No. You have yet to link any relationship to a SS number and a birthplace. It really very simple- if you are convinced that there was fraud, find actual evidence, rather than your imagination.

    Could you read my previous post again and then provide a logical explanation how Obama got a SSN number from Connecticut?

    Make sure that your explanation fits available facts (family members residencies at that time).

  462. avatar
    Sef August 2, 2010 at 9:07 pm #

    nc1:
    Could you read my previous post again and then provide a logical explanation how Obama got a SSN number from Connecticut?
    Make sure that your explanation fits available facts (family members residencies at that time).

    It’s very, very simple. Just substitute the initial ‘9’ in his Honolulu Zip Code with a ‘0’ & you get a city in CT. It’s called a typo.

  463. avatar
    nbc August 2, 2010 at 9:14 pm #

    nc1: Could you read my previous post again and then provide a logical explanation how Obama got a SSN number from Connecticut?

    Sure, he worked for Baskin Robbins as one of his first summer jobs and he had to apply for a SSN which was sent to headquarters to be returned to Barack.

    So many possible explanations and nothing to suggest any fraud.

    Poor poor nc1.

  464. avatar
    Barkahizeristan Misdirect: August 2, 2010 at 9:25 pm #

    Sef:
    It’s very, very simple.Just substitute the initial ’9′ in his Honolulu Zip Code with a ’0′ & you get a city in CT.It’s called a typo.

    The post office won’t forward correspondence with an incorrect zip cope from the Soc Sec Admin because it could be fraud.

    And the Soc Sec Admin wouldn’t process an application from Hawaii with a Connecticut zip. For all they know, the zip code is correct and Honolulu, HI is incorrect. The applicant would have to make a correction.

    Obama would have a Soc Sec Number from HI if he hadn’t had a Refugee Assistance Organization file the paperwork on his behalf.

  465. avatar
    nc1 August 2, 2010 at 9:27 pm #

    nbc: Sure, he worked for Baskin Robbins as one of his first summer jobs and he had to apply for a SSN which was sent to headquarters to be returned to Barack.So many possible explanations and nothing to suggest any fraud.Poor poor nc1.

    1. Baskin-Robins filed SSN applications for their temporary employees?
    I thought that individuals were responsible for applying for their SSN – I had to do it myself at the time.

    2. Why is it that the number has not been reported as used by Obama unitl 1986? Did he go through college without taking any loans or working any jobs?

  466. avatar
    nc1 August 2, 2010 at 9:31 pm #

    Barkahizeristan Misdirect:: The post office won’t forward correspondence with an incorrect zip cope from the Soc Sec Admin because it could be fraud.And the Soc Sec Admin wouldn’t process an application from Hawaii with a Connecticut zip. For all they know, the zip code is correct and Honolulu, HI is incorrect. The applicant would have to make a correction.Obama would have a Soc Sec Number from HI if he hadn’t had a Refugee Assistance Organization file the paperwork on his behalf.

    Where did you get the information that a refugee assistence organization filed paperworks on his behalf? Which organization was involved?
    Why would it be necessary for an alleged US citizen and resident of Hawaii to have any organization file SSN paperwork for him. Your explanation does not make much sense.

  467. avatar
    AnotherBird August 2, 2010 at 9:40 pm #

    Expelliarmus: So nothing in the documentation excludes the possibility that Stanley Ann had a previously issued passport — but the earliest passport that we have documentation for is one that was issued in 1965.

    There is insufficient information to conclude anything relating to the issuance of a passport prior to 1965. There is no reliable information that even suggests that a passport was issued to her before 1965.

  468. avatar
    Barkahizeristan Misdirect: August 2, 2010 at 9:46 pm #

    nc1:
    Where did you get the information that a refugee assistence organization filed paperworks on his behalf?Which organization was involved?
    Why would it be necessary for an alleged US citizen and resident of Hawaii to have any organization file SSN paperwork for him.Your explanation does not make much sense.

    If you’ll look through Allen’s FOIA documents, you’ll see there is a great deal of correspondence between INS and Lolo and Stanley Ann. It seems Lolo was on a full scholorship ride (books, tuition, housing, allowance and food).

    Lolo’s problems began when file a tax return with the IRS as an Non-Resident Alien when he should have filed as a Permanent Resident Alien. Lolo explained “a friend at the bank” helped him file the return and he did mean to make a mistake. His mistake got him deported because his tax filing indicated he was abandoning his Permanent Resident status.

    These mistakes are common for legal aliens in America. Consequently, NGOs (non-governmental organizations) frequently contract with the State Department to assist Legal Aliens with their legal paperwork, assimilation, language training, etc.

    There are many NGOs. I do not know the NGO that assisted Obama with his Soc Sec application. I just know the NGO that filed Barack’s Form SS-5 was located in Connecticut.

  469. avatar
    NbC August 2, 2010 at 10:08 pm #

    nc1: The applicant would have to make a correction.Obama would have a Soc Sec Number from HI if he hadn’t had a Refugee Assistance Organization file the paperwork on his behalf.

    Note the absence again of any evidence.

    Do you hate our President that much that you are willing to abandon reason and logic?

    Fascinating

  470. avatar
    AnotherBird August 2, 2010 at 10:26 pm #

    Barkahizeristan Misdirect::
    If you’ll look through Allen’s FOIA documents, you’ll see there is a great deal of correspondence between INS and Lolo and Stanley Ann. It seems Lolo was on a full scholorship ride(books, tuition, housing, allowance and food).

    Lolo’s problems began when file a tax return with the IRS as an Non-Resident Alien when he should have filed as a Permanent Resident Alien. Lolo explained “a friend at the bank” helped him file the return and he did mean to make a mistake. His mistake got him deported because his tax filing indicated he was abandoning his Permanent Resident status.

    These mistakes are common for legal aliens in America. Consequently, NGOs (non-governmental organizations) frequently contract with the State Department to assist Legal Aliens with their legal paperwork, assimilation, language training, etc.

    There are many NGOs. I do not know the NGO that assisted Obama with his Soc Sec application. I just know the NGO that filed Barack’s Form SS-5 was located in Connecticut.

    It is hard to assess what side of the fence you are on. That is where you are a reasonable person and accept all this birther stuff as nonsense, or just an another birther. I really hope that you are not the latter.

    It seems as though you can even follow your own argument. You seem to try to insert some non-relevant information, based on non-existing information into your argument.

    Question how can you know and not know a fact at the same time?

  471. avatar
    NbC August 2, 2010 at 10:53 pm #

    nc1: 1. Baskin-Robins filed SSN applications for their temporary employees?

    Nope, Barack’s return address was Baskin Robbins headquarters, which then returned the information to him

    2. Why is it that the number has not been reported as used by Obama unitl 1986? Did he go through college without taking any loans or working any jobs?

    Or the reporting is poor, but you already knew that did you not? These are public databases built from a lot of resources of doubtful reliability. Still nothing really?

  472. avatar
    NbC August 2, 2010 at 10:53 pm #

    2. Why is it that the number has not been reported as used by Obama unitl 1986? Did he go through college without taking any loans or working any jobs?

    And I love the moving of the goalposts? You insist on looking at absence of data while ignoring the existence of data.
    Garbage In, Garbage Out my friend

  473. avatar
    NbC August 2, 2010 at 10:58 pm #

    2. Why is it that the number has not been reported as used by Obama unitl 1986? Did he go through college without taking any loans or working any jobs?

    SSN are reported only when the date becomes publicly. Typically ssn do not become public through a job.

    Geez… Think and do some research before you complain

  474. avatar
    Sef August 2, 2010 at 11:04 pm #

    NbC:
    Nope, Barack’s return address was Baskin Robbins headquarters, which then returned the information to him
    Or the reporting is poor, but you already knew that did you not?These are public databases built from a lot of resources of doubtful reliability. Still nothing really?

    The Wikipedia page on Baskin-Robbins does not mention anything about a HQ in CT. Do you have some other info?

  475. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 2, 2010 at 11:20 pm #

    nc1: there is quite a distance between Hawaii and Connecticut.

    And there is a lot more between Hawaii and Kenya!

  476. avatar
    NbC August 3, 2010 at 12:26 am #

    Sef:
    The Wikipedia page on Baskin-Robbins does not mention anything about a HQ in CT.Do you have some other info?

    Bummer…

  477. avatar
    obsolete August 3, 2010 at 12:57 am #

    As posted in another thread here:

    From the Social Security Administration website:

    The Area Number is assigned by the geographical region. Prior to 1972, cards were issued in local Social Security offices around the country and the Area Number represented the State in which the card was issued. This did not necessarily have to be the State where the applicant lived, since a person could apply for their card in any Social Security office. Since 1972, when SSA began assigning SSNs and issuing cards centrally from Baltimore, the area number assigned has been based on the ZIP code in the mailing address provided on the application for the original Social Security card. The applicant’s mailing address does not have to be the same as their place of residence. Thus, the Area Number does not necessarily represent the State of residence of the applicant, either prior to 1972 or since.

    Note: One should not make too much of the “geographical code.” It is not meant to be any kind of useable geographical information. The numbering scheme was designed in 1936 (before computers) to make it easier for SSA to store the applications in our files in Baltimore since the files were organized by regions as well as alphabetically. It was really just a bookkeeping device for our own internal use and was never intended to be anything more than that.
    http://www.ssa.gov/history/ssn/geocard.html

    Or the simplest explanation: a fifty year conspiracy that spans the globe and all governments!!!!!1111!!

  478. avatar
    NbC August 3, 2010 at 1:06 am #

    2. Why is it that the number has not been reported as used by Obama unitl 1986? Did he go through college without taking any loans or working any jobs?

    Other data I have found for people related to Obama appear to be limited in extent as well. Perhaps your problem is that you are relying on public datasets of unknown quality.

  479. avatar
    G August 3, 2010 at 1:22 am #

    nc1: Barkahizeristan Misdirect:: The post office won’t forward correspondence with an incorrect zip cope from the Soc Sec Admin because it could be fraud.And the Soc Sec Admin wouldn’t process an application from Hawaii with a Connecticut zip. For all they know, the zip code is correct and Honolulu, HI is incorrect. The applicant would have to make a correction.Obama would have a Soc Sec Number from HI if he hadn’t had a Refugee Assistance Organization file the paperwork on his behalf.

    Where did you get the information that a refugee assistence organization filed paperworks on his behalf? Which organization was involved?
    Why would it be necessary for an alleged US citizen and resident of Hawaii to have any organization file SSN paperwork for him. Your explanation does not make much sense.

    Sven rarely makes any sense. This is just another of his kooky sock-puppet names. He has dozens of them. He’s sort of our local village idi*t over here. He comes and posts the strangest fantasy fiction scenarios and they often make very little sense. Sven is not from the US, so his grammar and understanding of our country could be a big part of the problem. The only semi-consistent thread in his posts is his fixation on his Refugee Assistance Organization nonsense and “Form SS-5” . Hey, its his personal contribution to making up Birther stories. Its all he’s got and his only shot at getting his 15 min of fame. Sort of like the fake CA birth certificate signed by Dudley Dooright. Sven just gets frustrated because he can’t get get any traction for his fiction anywhere…not even amongst most birthers.

  480. avatar
    G August 3, 2010 at 1:26 am #

    AnotherBird (responding to Sven): It is hard to assess what side of the fence you are on. That is where you are a reasonable person and accept all this birther stuff as nonsense, or just an another birther. I really hope that you are not the latter.

    It seems as though you can even follow your own argument. You seem to try to insert some non-relevant information, based on non-existing information into your argument.

    Question how can you know and not know a fact at the same time?

    AB, “Barkahizeristan Misdirect” is just another one of Sven’s multiple sock-puppets. His fictional fantasies are not based on any support. They are just his own made up nonsense. He sticks to pushing it under different names over and over again, because he desperately wants his “novel ideas” to “catch-on”, but they never do, even amongst the birther community. I seriously think its nothing but his desperate attempt to glean his 15-minutes of fame. Hence, the endless sock-puppets he uses to parrot himself.

  481. avatar
    AnotherBird August 3, 2010 at 2:55 am #

    News on Lt. Col. Terrence Lakin from TPM. Lt. Col. Terrence Lakin has been “been referred to a General Court Martial.”

    http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/08/birther_army_docs_defense_charges_referred_to_cour.php

    Lakin still insists that he isn’t guilty. He knowingly disobeyed order from his superiors, and still doesn’t understand the concept of a legal order.

    Too bad for Lakin as it seems that The American Patriot Foundation is using him as a “cash cow.” It was The American Patriot Foundation who released the “press release by the APF.”