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New videos debunk long form detractors

Thanks to conservative computer expert John Woodman for a group of videos examining critically the claims of those who say they have found evidence that Obama’s long form birth certificate is a fraud.

John, welcome to the fray.



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186 Responses to New videos debunk long form detractors

  1. avatar
    Steve July 3, 2011 at 12:25 pm #

    I can hear the audio, but I can’t see the videos.

  2. avatar
    Reality Check July 3, 2011 at 12:36 pm #

    I would hope the folks screaming forgery will watch these with an open mind. These videos put to rest for good the idea that the “oddities” in the PDF may only be explained by human manipulation. It will be interesting to see how Douglas Vogt and Mara Zebest respond. I suspect they have too much self esteem invested in their claims to admit that they were wrong. As for Joe Farah? Don’t even ask.

  3. avatar
    Joey July 3, 2011 at 2:31 pm #

    Steve:
    I can hear the audio, but I can’t see the videos.

    Just go straight to youtube.

  4. avatar
    Skeptic July 3, 2011 at 5:49 pm #

    I wasted more than 50 minutes watching these video clips and I am now more convinced than ever that the document is a forgery. You ignored dozens of discrepancies noted in the various articles and videos that have suggested fraud, and essentially focused on only one issue that is not in dispute! Those who believe the document is a forgery have certainly not claimed that the forger did not use an optimization step. You ignored the possibility that the forger did use optimization (which may explain some of the discrepancies) but manipulated other information.

    After 50+ minutes I kept waiting for an explanation for the rotation of several images that were scanned and inserted into the document. Why did you not address that issue? BECAUSE YOU COULD NOT EXPLAIN IT!

    The document is a forgery.

  5. avatar
    Thrifty July 3, 2011 at 5:52 pm #

    Skeptic: I wasted more than 50 minutes watching these video clips and I am now more convinced than ever that the document is a forgery.

    Which document? The one which the state of Hawaii publicly confirms it issued to Barack Obama?

  6. avatar
    Skeptic July 3, 2011 at 6:07 pm #

    The person who created the above videos is a good student of Obama’s favorite “false choice” technique: Describe two extreme alternatives and ignore the fact that there could be other alternatives in the middle. Just as Obama is lying when he suggests that if we do not raise taxes we will have to shut down the national weather service and allow children to starve to death (a false choice), these videos suggest that the choice is between a legitimate document and someone spending weeks painstakingly drawing letters by hand. The answer is quite different. Obama could not rely on an expert to create his document because he could not go outside his inner circle. He therefore used a fool to create the document, someone who knew a little about computer software but nowhere near enough. There is no reason that fool could not have used optimization in addition to a variety of other steps necessary to cover for the thug-in-chief.

    The sooner he is deported to Indonesia the better…

  7. avatar
    Majority Will July 3, 2011 at 6:10 pm #

    Skeptic: The document is a forgery.

    Why would the state of Hawaii forge their own document?

    Do you suspect the U.S. Mint of making fake coins or the Bureau of Engraving and Printing of printing counterfeit bills too?

    Does the State Department issue fake passports?

    Please explain.

  8. avatar
    Skeptic July 3, 2011 at 6:12 pm #

    Which document? ALL the “documents.”

    The State of Hawaii has never confirmed that it printed and released the short-form certification of live birth that showed up on various web sites in 2008. It has also never confirmed that it created the long-form “document” released by Obama in April 2011 as an Internet image. Hawaiian officials have been very careful in their lawyer-like wording. It has only stated that it has documents on file, but has not stated that what they have on file is what Obama released.

  9. avatar
    Skeptic July 3, 2011 at 6:14 pm #

    The “document” is a forgery. I should believe what the thug-in-chief says? He also says he “created or saved” millions of jobs, which conflicts with the fact that there are 1.9 million fewer Americans working now than in January 2009.

  10. avatar
    Reality Check July 3, 2011 at 6:19 pm #

    Those are explained here: Obama PDF Explained – Linked elements, transform + rotation history, clipping masks

    Skeptic: After 50+ minutes I kept waiting for an explanation for the rotation of several images that were scanned and inserted into the document. Why did you not address that issue? BECAUSE YOU COULD NOT EXPLAIN IT!

  11. avatar
    Majority Will July 3, 2011 at 6:21 pm #

    Skeptic:
    Which document? ALL the “documents.”

    The State of Hawaii has never confirmed that it printed and released the short-form certification of live birth that showed up on various web sites in 2008. It has also never confirmed that it created the long-form “document” released by Obama in April 2011 as an Internet image. Hawaiian officials have been very careful in their lawyer-like wording. It has only stated that it has documents on file, but has not stated that what they have on file is what Obama released.

    You’re not making any sense.

  12. avatar
    Majority Will July 3, 2011 at 6:22 pm #

    Skeptic:
    The “document” is a forgery. I should believe what the thug-in-chief says? He also says he “created or saved” millions of jobs, which conflicts with the fact that there are 1.9 million fewer Americans working now than in January 2009.

    Are you over 60, male and from a southern U.S. state?

    Just curious.

  13. avatar
    Sef July 3, 2011 at 6:27 pm #

    Once again these [bad word removed - Sef] who deride Mr. Woodman’s analysis completely ignore the fact that it is the information contained on the paper that is important ie. name, DOB, POB. All else is just nonsense.

  14. avatar
    Nathanael July 3, 2011 at 6:29 pm #

    Skeptic: … focused on only one issue that is not in dispute

    What videos did you watch? In the very first video, Woodman lists a series of charges, from layers to the missing seal to the birth certificate number, white haloes, pixel sizes, etc., which he then goes on to address. Everything he talks about is an objection raised by birthers. That they may not be your particular pet peeve hardly justifies your claim that they’re not in dispute.

    Skeptic:
    Those who believe the document is a forgery

    As Thrifty said, which document? The PDF? The legal proof of Obama’s birth doesn’t rest on the PDF, but on the physical certified copies of the LFCOLB handed to Obama’s lawyer by HDOH officials in April. All this chasing after a PDF file is just a red herring, akin to disputing the existence of the Golden Gate Bridge by proving my souvenir picture postcard was photoshopped.

    Let’s assume for a moment that there is some credible evidence that the PDF was manually manipulated by some human somewhere. What does that prove, particularly in light of the fact that nothing in it disagrees with any detail of the short-form released in 2008 or statements from Hawaii, or any other piece of documented personal history anyone knows of. So you’re suggesting what, exactly? That some Obama crony digitally altered the PDF with the nefarious intent of replacing true information with true information? Let’s change the birth certificate by not changing it. What’s the point?

  15. avatar
    Majority Will July 3, 2011 at 6:32 pm #

    Sef:
    Once again these [bad word removed - Sef] who deride Mr. Woodman’s analysis completely ignore the fact that it is the information contained on the paper that is important ie. name, DOB, POB. All else is just nonsense.

    If you confuse them too much, they might start sobbing and rocking back and forth uncontrollably.

  16. avatar
    Sef July 3, 2011 at 6:41 pm #

    A comment on Mr. Woodman’s YouTube channel probably answers the question. For some time now all documents the government places on a website must be ‘accessible’. The comment alluded to a “Make Accessible” option in the scanning s/w. This is probably why these optimizations were done.

  17. avatar
    Stanislaw July 3, 2011 at 6:45 pm #

    Skeptic:
    Obama could not rely on an expert to create his document because he could not go outside his inner circle. He therefore used a fool to create the document, someone who knew a little about computer software but nowhere near enough.

    If you believe any of the nonsense you just wrote then the only fool here is you.

    Can’t you birthers even try to sound sane?

  18. avatar
    Rickey July 3, 2011 at 6:48 pm #

    Skeptic:

    The State of Hawaii has never confirmed that it printed and released the short-form certification of live birth that showed up on various web sites in 2008. It has also never confirmed that it created the long-form “document” released by Obama in April 2011 as an Internet image. Hawaiian officials have been very careful in their lawyer-like wording. It has only stated that it has documents on file, but has not stated that what they have on file is what Obama released.

    State of Hawaii Press Release, April 27, 2011:

    In June 2008, President Obama released his Certification of Live Birth, which is sometimes referred to in the media as a “short form” birth certificate. Both documents are legally sufficient evidence of birth in the State of Hawaii, and both provide the same fundamental information: President Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii at 7:24 p.m. on August 4, 1961, to mother Stanley Ann Dunham and father Barack Hussein Obama.

    http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/News_Release_Birth_Certificate_042711.pdf

    There you have it. The State of Hawaii is officially on record that Barack Obama was born in Honolulu on August 4, 1961.

  19. avatar
    Joey July 3, 2011 at 6:56 pm #

    Skeptic:
    Which document? ALL the “documents.”

    The State of Hawaii has never confirmed that it printed and released the short-form certification of live birth that showed up on various web sites in 2008. It has also never confirmed that it created the long-form “document” released by Obama in April 2011 as an Internet image. Hawaiian officials have been very careful in their lawyer-like wording. It has only stated that it has documents on file, but has not stated that what they have on file is what Obama released.

    Noiw that the state of Hawaii has confirmed and released a copy of the original, vault copy, long form and since we all know that short forms are abstracts of the long form, both the original long form and the abstracted short form have been confirmed.
    The Registrar of Vital Statistics Alvin T. Onaka, Ph.D. affixed his authentification stamp to both documents. That stamp, with Dr. Onaka’s signature states: “I certify this is a true copy or abstract of the record on file at the Hawaii State Deparment of Health.”
    Since Dr. Onaka is alive and well and continues in his position as Registrar of Vital Statistics, he is available should he ever be needed to be deposed or to testify under subpoena in any court proceeding looking in to President Barack Hussein Obama’s eligiblity.
    Thus far, no court proceeding has required testimony from Dr. Onaka or any other Hawaii governmental official.

    “The state of Hawaii has said that he was born there. That’s good enough for me.”–Representative John Boehner, Speaker of the House Of Representatives (R-OH).

    “You know, during the campaign of 2008, I was actually in the mainland campaigning for Sen. McCain. This issue kept coming up so much in the campaign, and again I think it’s one of those issues that is simply a distraction from the more critical issues that are facing the country. And so I had my health director, who is a physician by background, go personally view the birth certificate in the birth records of the Department of Health, and we issued a news release at that time saying that the president was, in fact, born at Kapi’olani Hospital in Honolulu, Hawaii. And that’s just a fact. And yet people continue to call up and e-mail and want to make it an issue. And I think it’s, again, a horrible distraction for the country by those people who continue this. … It’s been established. He was born here.”–Former Governor of Hawaii Linda Lingle (R-HI)

  20. avatar
    Nathanael July 3, 2011 at 7:04 pm #

    Skeptic:

    The State of Hawaii has never confirmed that it printed and released the short-form certification of live birth that showed up on various web sites in 2008. It has also never confirmed that it created the long-form “document” released by Obama in April 2011 as an Internet image.

    Just crawling out from under your rock? Stop ranting for just one minute, take a deep breath, and answer one question: when did the fakery happen? Did the DOH produce fake certificates? Did Obama or his lawyer alter the physical documents? Or was it only the digital images that were forged?

    All the birther brouha has been directed at the PDF, which is utterly irrelevant. If, in some strange alternate reality, the president is actually asked to produce proof of birth in a court of law, he’s not going to hand the judge a PDF, but the original certificate certified by the state of Hawaii. If I claim to have painted the Mona Lisa, what’s a judge going to believe — the original hanging in the Louvre, or the polaroid I took with my name scrawled across it in crayon?

    Why should the state of Hawaii need to confirm it produced the White House PDF when it already produced the originals? And why should anyone care who produced the PDF at all?

  21. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 3, 2011 at 7:04 pm #

    @sef
    I think accessibility would require OCR which the long form isn’t.

  22. avatar
    Joey July 3, 2011 at 7:07 pm #

    Our friend “Skeptic” is “skeptical” because he or she obviously hasn’t followed this issue very closely and is unaware of the facts of official confirmation and authentifcation of the President’s birth records by the state of Hawaii, going back to before the 2008 general election in 2008.

    “I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Director of the Hawai’i State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen.

    I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October 2008 over eight months ago.”

  23. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 3, 2011 at 7:08 pm #

    I am over 60 male and from a southern state.

  24. avatar
    richCares July 3, 2011 at 7:15 pm #

    from “Turning The Scale”
    The version of the certificate being attacked by Corsi in this inconsequential book is a digital copy in portable document format (pdf). It’s not the real birth certificate. That’s a fact that has somehow eluded Farah, Corsi and the motley crew of digital document “experts” they’ve been trotting out over the last few weeks to give their “analyses” of why the pdf is a forgery.
    .
    though rather silly, skeptic adheres to this silliness, that’s a wow now isn’t it

  25. avatar
    Reality Check July 3, 2011 at 7:15 pm #

    I agree Doc. There was a good discussion on the whether or not OCR was done at The Fogbow and the consensus is that no OCR algorithm was used on the LFBC. Whether the government rules required it to be done is another question. While the use of OCR might help explain some of the minutia of the letter renditions it is not required since PDF optimization alone seems to explain what folks have seen.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    @sef
    I think accessibility would require OCR which the long form isn’t.

  26. avatar
    Suranis July 3, 2011 at 7:26 pm #

    Mother of God. Havent we had the same conversation 2 days ago with another sockpuppet?

    http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/obama.html

    “On April 27, 2011 President Barack Obama posted a certified copy of his original Certificate of Live Birth.”

    Who certified it as a copy of whats on file. The hawai’i DOH

    “All past statements by the Health Director are available at:

    http://hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2008/08-93.pdf
    http://hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2009/09-063.pdf

    The statements speak for themselves and there are no other public records maintained by the department related to these statements that are available to the public ”

    That should be the end of it to anyone rational. Which is why the majority of birthers dropped the whole thing once the LFBC was released. Only people like you are left.

    Yes, calling you “people” is an an hominem attack. Not that you have a clue what that means…

    Skeptic: It has only stated that it has documents on file, but has not stated that what they have on file is what Obama released.

  27. avatar
    Majority Will July 3, 2011 at 7:33 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I am over 60 male and from a southern state.

    Noted. Thanks.

    I have wondered if birthers comprise a statistically predictable demographic as described on The Fogbow here:

    http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5081

    I added Southern out of curiosity. Assuming would be wrong, so I asked.

    Anecdotally, many of the birthers I’ve encountered said they were male and over fifty.

  28. avatar
    jamese777 July 3, 2011 at 8:11 pm #

    Skeptic: “It has only stated that it has documents on file, but has not stated that what they have on file is what Obama released.”

    Wrong.
    The former Director of Health for the state of Hawaii under the previous Republican administration testified under oath before a Senate Committee of the Hawaii legislature that Obama’s short form COLB which was posted on his campaign web site was authentic.
    As for the newly released copy of his long form, any reporter in the nation can simply call up Director of Health Loretta Fuddy and ask her if there is any difference in data between what she released and what the Obama administration posted to the internet.

    Here’s a link to Dr. Fukino’s testimonhy:
    http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2010/Testimony/SB2937_TESTIMONY_JGO_02-23-10_LATE.pdf

  29. avatar
    G July 3, 2011 at 9:17 pm #

    I wouldn’t put anything special on “male” being an identifier. We have more than sufficient evidence from the avid birthers that post, host birther sites (KBOA, Dr. K(h)ate, Sharon, various PUMAs, etc.) and file or participate in lawsuits (Orly, Hemenway’s daughter, etc.) that there are lots of female birthers out there as well. Therefore, I see no significance or distinction regarding sex on the birtherism issue.

    Older is probably a more common denominator. Polls have also consistently shown a higher percentage to be southern, so that is always a higher than average probability too, but neither of those are exclusive to those age and geographic ranges either.

    Evangelical is probably a high percentage, based on the religious tone of various birther posts, as is a predisposition to either certain “pseudo-conservative” or “pseudo-libertarian” ideological thinking. Paranoid and anti-government conspiracy thought is so prevalent amongst the hardcore contingent that remains, that it is probably the most dominent identifying factor of all.

    Majority Will: Anecdotally, many of the birthers I’ve encountered said they were male and over fifty.

  30. avatar
    G July 3, 2011 at 9:22 pm #

    Yeah, I hear ya. People like “skeptic” are anything but. They are brainwashed tools who distrust soley based on being trapped in an extreme ideological worldview that they can’t reconcile with reality.

    They only seem to apply skepticism to reality, because it doesn’t match their fantasy worldview and are otherwise hypocrites on the issue, as they will take any rumor or tale they hear and swallow it wholesale, as long as it spews the talking points and memes that they are so desperate to believe in.

    Healthy skepticism exists, but only by those that can apply it logically and fairly across circumstances. This poster using that title is anything but. He/she needs to change their name to “Paranoid conspiracy nut”, because that is really what we’re dealing with here.

    Suranis: Mother of God. Havent we had the same conversation 2 days ago with another sockpuppet?

  31. avatar
    Thrifty July 3, 2011 at 9:27 pm #

    Excellent work countering Skeptic’s BS claims. I’m sure that now that you have provided thoughtful rebuttals and hyperlinks to your sources, he will reconsider his position and admit his error.

    HA HA HA HA HA

    I just needed to amuse myself. I’ve been kinda bored this weekend and The Onion is in reruns.

  32. avatar
    Scientist July 3, 2011 at 9:27 pm #

    Skeptic: The document is a forgery.

    Then you should be able to produce the “real” one. Until you do, I will go with the Hawaiian document.

    Skeptic: The sooner he is deported to Indonesia the better

    Are you contending he was born in Indonesia? I have never seen a shred of evidence or argument to support that. If you are contending he acquired Indonesian citizenship while living there, you have no evidence, nor is the birth certificate relevant to that,

    Skeptic: He also says he “created or saved” millions of jobs, which conflicts with the fact that there are 1.9 million fewer Americans working now than in January 2009.

    i know we aren”t supposed to argue issues that actually affect people here (theories about stuff like the President’s birthplace that really doesn’t matter to anyone’s life are the only topics allowed on this blog), but I can’t let that pass without saying that you don’t know how many jobs would have been lost without the stimulus. It might have been 5 milllion (or more), in which case the President’s statement is completelly accurate. Most independent economists believe that the stimulus saved 2-3 million jobs. The major criticism is that given the depth of the crisis, the stiimulus should have been larger (perhaps almost twice as big). Expand your universe and read a bit in the economic literature on ALL sides (as i have done).

  33. avatar
    Majority Will July 3, 2011 at 9:48 pm #

    G:
    I wouldn’t put anything special on “male” being an identifier.We have more than sufficient evidence from the avid birthers that post, host birther sites (KBOA, Dr. K(h)ate, Sharon, various PUMAs, etc.) and file or participate in lawsuits (Orly, Hemenway’s daughter, etc.) that there are lots of female birthers out there as well.Therefore, I see no significance or distinction regarding sex on the birtherism issue.

    Older is probably a more common denominator.Polls have also consistently shown a higher percentage to be southern, so that is always a higher than average probability too, but neither of those are exclusive to those age and geographic ranges either.

    Evangelical is probably a high percentage, based on the religious tone of various birther posts, as is a predisposition to either certain “pseudo-conservative” or “pseudo-libertarian” ideological thinking.Paranoid and anti-government conspiracy thought is so prevalent amongst the hardcore contingent that remains, that it is probably the most dominent identifying factor of all.

    Interesting observations. Thanks.

  34. avatar
    sarina July 3, 2011 at 10:07 pm #

    Skeptic: Which document? ALL the “documents.”The State of Hawaii has never confirmed that it printed and released the short-form certification of live birth that showed up on various web sites in 2008. It has also never confirmed that it created the long-form “document” released by Obama in April 2011 as an Internet image. Hawaiian officials have been very careful in their lawyer-like wording. It has only stated that it has documents on file, but has not stated that what they have on file is what Obama released.

    Really? And why do you think that the signature of the registrar ( Alvin T Onaka means? What about the governor of Hawaii (a Republican) certified that Obama was born there.
    Did you also saw CNN reporter talking to Dr Fukino, when she said “No doubt Obama was born in Hawaii”? That was a few days before the long form was released.
    What are you smoking?!

  35. avatar
    Thrifty July 3, 2011 at 10:26 pm #

    Skeptic: It has also never confirmed that it created the long-form “document” released by Obama in April 2011 as an Internet image.

    This is technically true. They released a paper certificate. Barack Obama’s office released the electronic image as a means of dissmeninating information. Do you propose then that Hawaii released one thing, Obama’s people created something completely different, and the state of Hawaii never thought to say “WTF guys? That’s not what we handed over!!!”

  36. avatar
    Expelliarmus July 3, 2011 at 10:49 pm #

    The State of Hawaii DID confirm that the document they released to Obama contained the following information:

    * Obama’s name
    * time of birth
    * day of birth
    * city & county (island) or birth
    * name of mother (Stanley Ann Dunham)
    * name of father ( Barack Hussein Obama)

    Assuming for purposes of argument that a document containing all of the above was prepared by the DOH and given to Obama’s lawyers, and then Obama uploaded a scanned document that also contained the information as reflected above….

    what would be the point of any alteration?
    what difference would it make, and why would anyone go to the trouble of such an alteration?

  37. avatar
    Greg July 4, 2011 at 1:02 am #

    Skeptic: t has also never confirmed that it created the long-form “document” released by Obama in April 2011 as an Internet image. Hawaiian officials have been very careful in their lawyer-like wording.

    Apparently, however, the Hawaiian lawyers never looked at the website put together by the Hawaiian DOH, where they admit that:

    1. Obama requested a certified copy of his birth certificate
    2. They provided his birth certificate
    3. The birth certificate they gave him was the same as the one they had
    4. Obama posted his certified birth certificate on the internet, and THEY LINKED TO THE CERTIFIED COPY HE POSTED ON THE INTERNET!

    You can read their website here.

    So, either their lawyers are stupid, allowing them to verify on their website what they refused to confirm to WND, or your lawyers, who are 0-81 in court, are stupid and have misrepresented the facts on this issue, as you have in all past issues.

    Reality is against you, “Skeptic.”

    (By the way, someone who credulously believes such ludicrous conspiracy theories does a disservice to the moniker Skeptic!)

  38. avatar
    Judge Mental July 4, 2011 at 3:23 am #

    Thrifty: This is technically true. They released a paper certificate. Barack Obama’s office released the electronic image as a means of dissmeninating information. Do you propose then that Hawaii released one thing, Obama’s people created something completely different, and the state of Hawaii never thought to say “WTF guys? That’s not what we handed over!!!”

    No, to my mind what Skeptic and Pete and other posters are proposing is that in the case of the COLB Hawaii did not produce anything at all, Obama’s people simply produced a fake and that in the case of the long form that Hawaii produced one thing and Obama’s people amended it

    What they are further proposing is that in the case of an internet image of a COLB which they have never issued having appeared online in 2007 and in the more recent case of an internet image of a long form having appeared exhibiting essential differences in content from the content of the document that they themselves handed over to his lawyer the day before…..that in both cases, instead of saying, as you suggest “WTF guys, we didn’t issue THOSE!!”, Hawaii instead decided to cover their backsides while tacitly going along with the shenanigans of Obama’s people by issuing carefully constructed sentences in apparent support of the genuine nature of both images whilst retaining future deniability via manipulation of words.

    The fact that many of the statements issued by Hawaii contain wording which could not possibly, even by the wildest stretch of creative interpretation and word juggling, ever give Hawaii the faintest hope of any realistic opportunity for deniability…..and the question of why a Hawaii DOH which was prepared to carry out such complicity in fraud would not instead in the first place simply produce a “genuine fake” COLB and Long Form BC containing whatever info Obama’s people asked for…..stand as further testament to the absurdity that these accusations represent to anyone who is not mentally unhinged.

  39. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith July 4, 2011 at 6:37 am #

    Hi friends! Check out my new blog:

    http://www.wasobamaborninkenya.com/blog

  40. avatar
    Keith July 4, 2011 at 7:49 am #

    Lucas D. Smith:
    Hi friends!Check out my new blog:

    http://www.wasobamaborninkenya.com/blog

    You have got to be kidding.

  41. avatar
    Majority Will July 4, 2011 at 7:58 am #

    Keith: You have got to be kidding.

    When I want funny fiction, farce and fascinating fantasy, I’ll stick to theonion.com.

  42. avatar
    Thrifty July 4, 2011 at 8:33 am #

    Lucas D. Smith:
    Hi friends!Check out my new blog:

    http://www.wasobamaborninkenya.com/blog

    I’m setting up a counter blog.

    http://www.no.com

  43. avatar
    Reality Check July 4, 2011 at 9:22 am #

    Lucas D. Smith:
    Hi friends!Check out my new blog:

    http://www.wasobamaborninkenya.com/blog

    When the best thing you can say for yourself is “I have been out of jail for ten years now and I got out on my own recognizance on my latest (alleged) crime.” I don’t think I would be blogging about it.

  44. avatar
    Majority Will July 4, 2011 at 9:22 am #

    Thrifty: I’m setting up a counter blog.

    http://www.no.com

    Your site has credibility.

  45. avatar
    Bob July 4, 2011 at 9:29 am #

    “Was Obama born in . . .”

    How many years are you going to keep asking the same question? For three years now you just keep repeating the same thing. Absolutely nothing new. There’s been no progress. It’s just the same thing over and over again. It’s just laziness and it’s boring.

    It’s like having a child in the back seat asking “Arewethereyet . . . arewethereyet arewethereyet arewethereyet . . . ?”

  46. avatar
    Arthur July 4, 2011 at 9:59 am #

    Hi Lucas:

    Your first blog entry was an engaging and straightforward account of your recent incarceration, etc. I hope that one day you’ll kick your addiction to conspiratorial thinking and write an up-front memoir of your experiences in the birther movement. Of course, letting go of your fantasies of government persecution and Kenyan birth certificates might be very difficult, but if you did, you could create a revealing book that many people would find interesting.

  47. avatar
    Judge Mental July 4, 2011 at 12:05 pm #

    Arthur: Hi Lucas:Your first blog entry was an engaging and straightforward account of your recent incarceration, etc. I hope that one day you’ll kick your addiction to conspiratorial thinking and write an up-front memoir of your experiences in the birther movement. Of course, letting go of your fantasies of government persecution and Kenyan birth certificates might be very difficult, but if you did, you could create a revealing book that many people would find interesting.

    You raise an interesting angle that I’ve been thinking about for a long time Arthur. It seems to me that the first high profile ‘birther’ to recognise the optimum point in time to come clean with the truth about all the lying and fabrication that they and other high profile birthers have complicitly indulged in would, with good marketing and business advice, quite possibly stand to make a lot of money from the revelations.

  48. avatar
    Arthur July 4, 2011 at 12:45 pm #

    Judge Mental:

    Yes, I’d buy a tell-all written by a reformed birther . . . we need someone like Marjoe Gortner, the telegenic preacher who exposed the fradulent side of Pentacostal evangelists back in the 1970s.

  49. avatar
    AnotherBird July 4, 2011 at 1:15 pm #

    Idle hands are the a requirement for birthers. Some people need a hobby. Spending countless hours over several years to find a dot on an ‘i’ seems to be the providence of birthers. They will never accept the fact that they are wrong.

  50. avatar
    obsolete July 4, 2011 at 2:24 pm #

    An example of the delusion on parade at Lucas’ blog:
    “I am now accused of allegedly making an illegal banking transaction in the amount of approximately $3000.00 between my Bank of America account and my US Bank account. Said alleged transaction allegedly occurred in August of 2010. I’m innocent and this criminal case in an attempt to punitively silence me and quash, suppress, reject as invalid and put an end to my account of having personally obtained a 2009 certified copy of Barack Hussein Obama II’s 1961 British Protectorate of Kenya, Mombasa, Coast Province General Hospital (CPGH) orginal birth record.
    The federal government has been meddling in my affairs as far back as April or May 2010. The federal government is instructing and orchestrating the city and state police in Iowa in an attempt to silence Lucas Daniel Smith.”

    Obama is a tyrant and the best he can gin up against Lucas is a $3,000 fraud? One would think that if Obama was a tyrant and Lucas was on to something we would have heard the last of He, Lucas Smith, after his arrest in May.

  51. avatar
    Horus July 4, 2011 at 2:42 pm #

    obsolete: Obama is a tyrant and the best he can gin up against Lucas is a $3,000 fraud?

    Or he would be locked away in one of the CIAs secret foreign prisons.

  52. avatar
    Majority Will July 4, 2011 at 2:44 pm #

    obsolete:
    An example of the delusion on parade at Lucas’ blog:
    “I am now accused of allegedly making an illegal banking transaction in the amount of approximately $3000.00 between my Bank of America account and my US Bank account. Said alleged transaction allegedly occurred in August of 2010. I’m innocent and this criminal case in an attempt to punitively silence me and quash, suppress, reject as invalid and put an end to my account of having personally obtained a 2009 certified copy of Barack Hussein Obama II’s 1961 British Protectorate of Kenya, Mombasa, Coast Province General Hospital (CPGH) orginal birth record.
    The federal government has been meddling in my affairs as far back as April or May 2010.The federal government is instructing and orchestrating the city and state police in Iowa in an attempt to silence Lucas Daniel Smith.”

    Obama is a tyrant and the best he can gin up against Lucas is a $3,000 fraud? One would think that if Obama was a tyrant and Lucas was on to something we would have heard the last of He, Lucas Smith, after his arrest in May.

    Grandiose and persecutory delusions?

  53. avatar
    katahdin July 4, 2011 at 4:09 pm #

    What is “he, Lucas Smith’s” real name again?

  54. avatar
    Rickey July 4, 2011 at 5:22 pm #

    katahdin:
    What is “he, Lucas Smith’s” real name again?

    Good question. Maybe Lucas will post his birth certificate and put an end to the doubts held by millions.

    The State of Iowa lists seven names/aliases for him:

    NATHAN, SCOTT WESTON
    BOLDEN, ANTHONY JONES
    HALL, ANDREW ELLIS
    LONG, FRANK ALLEN
    SMITH, LUCAS DANIEL
    SMITH, LUCAS DAVID
    SMITH, LUKE DANIEL

  55. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 4, 2011 at 7:27 pm #

    Looks like Lucas’ friend bsteadman is hard at work trying to get people to believe lucas on Mr. Woodman’s videos

  56. avatar
    G July 4, 2011 at 7:57 pm #

    Welcome back Lucas and Happy Independence Day to you too. In between family holiday celebrations, I had the chance to check out your link and eventually read your whole tale. I wanted to point out that was a very nice family picture at the top of your story and you seem to be in fairly good spirits after your documented ordeal.

    Two key questions that I didn’t see addressed in the telling that I’m hoping you could shed some light on:

    1. If you notice Rickey’s post above mine, the records of your arrest listed a slew of aliasees for you and even gave a different name than Lucas D. Smith as your actual name. Can you please address those issues?

    2. After your endless road trip from hell, you arrived in IA for the charges, saw the judge and were released… so what does that actually mean? I notice you didn’t say that charges were dropped, just that you were released. Does that mean there is a future court date here or what? Similarly, from your story, does the tear up of the FL extradition mean that those charges were actually withdrawn… or just not being dealt with at this time?

    From an observational standpoint, it is interesting to follow your writing style and notice what things you focus the most on and where those patterns in this latest writing dovetail with your previous ones.

    As a suggestion for a future career direction that would be more fruitful and rewarding than your whole Obama/Kenya stuff: have you ever considered taking your negative experiences with the whole jail system and turning them into a positive? What I’m getting at is that you could become an advocate (from first hand experience) of reforms for the prison system, including how extraditions are handled. Not only does it sound like a business niche that could use additional players, but more importantly, it would be a useful way to pursue something that not only has personal relevance to you, but also would be beneficial to society as a whole. Win-win if you ask me. Plus it would be a great start to help you rebuild your image and reputation over time.

    Lucas D. Smith:
    Hi friends!Check out my new blog:

    http://www.wasobamaborninkenya.com/blog

  57. avatar
    gorefan July 4, 2011 at 8:30 pm #

    obsolete: One would think that if Obama was a tyrant and Lucas was on to something we would have heard the last of He, Lucas Smith, after his arrest in May.

    “If you live another day I will be very impressed.” Edward Lyle

  58. avatar
    J. Edward Tremlett July 4, 2011 at 11:32 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith:
    Hi friends!Check out my new blog:

    http://www.wasobamaborninkenya.com/blog

    I am Jim’s complete lack of sympathy.

    This is what karma tastes like, Lucas. Learn from it, or you will have to eat it again and again.

  59. avatar
    NBC July 5, 2011 at 2:56 am #

    It is true after all… Good things happen to good people…

    Lucas D. Smith:
    Hi friends!Check out my new blog:

    http://www.wasobamaborninkenya.com/blog

  60. avatar
    joy July 5, 2011 at 12:43 pm #

    Has anyone ever supplied a legitimate explanation for the out of sequence BC number?

  61. avatar
    Sef July 5, 2011 at 12:59 pm #

    Yes.

  62. avatar
    Arthur July 5, 2011 at 1:04 pm #

    joy: Has anyone ever supplied a legitimate explanation for the out of sequence BC number?

    You can use the search window at the top of the page, or start here:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/?s=birth+certificate+sequence+number

  63. avatar
    Thrifty July 5, 2011 at 1:08 pm #

    joy: Has anyone ever supplied a legitimate explanation for the out of sequence BC number?

    Why do you think it’s out of sequence? Why are you starting from the assumption that they are sequenced by birth date and time?

  64. avatar
    J.Potter July 5, 2011 at 1:21 pm #

    Starting with the ridiculously small sample the birthers use to allege Obama is out of sequence … let’s see Obama makes 1, two Nordyke twins make 3, if you want to count the Wadelich (or whatever the name was) that’s 4. Should the Nordyke twins be counted as 2, even? Point is, this tiny random sample is nowhere near large enough to reconstruct through inference the receiving, sorting, numbering, cataloguing procedures used at the time. It would be easier to just ask someone who worked there during that era, but no doubt anything they said discounting Obama was “out or order” would be dismissed as a lie. So, a’collecting Hawaii BCs we go, haha.

    joy:
    Has anyone ever supplied a legitimate explanation for the out of sequence BC number?

  65. avatar
    Majority Will July 5, 2011 at 1:23 pm #

    Thrifty: Why do you think it’s out of sequence?Why are you starting from the assumption that they are sequenced by birth date and time?

    I’m just guessing but probably only because someone like a writer for WND or the Post & E-mail said so.

    That’s usually all it takes. It reminds me of the use of African on the BC. It’s because they said so. Birther justifications or examples out of context then follow assertions without credible evidence.

  66. avatar
    joy July 5, 2011 at 1:44 pm #

    @arthur
    thanks, I did follow the link, read the article and the threads … insightful and entertaining.
    @ thrifty and others,
    The “out of sequence” was not based on birth date, but based on Date accepted, as stamped on the birth certificates. In addition, instead of the completely speculative nature of the above linked article in terms of “possible” processing techniques of the certificates and statistical analysis, Dr Corsi researched the actual method used by DOH in that era : “Bennett’s and Tokuyama’s description of this procedure shows that birth certificates were numbered upon acceptance by the registrar-general, and there was no provision that would allow an accepted birth certificate to be put in a pile for three days before a number was stamped on it.”
    So the dates of comparison are Aug 11 (Nordykes) vs Aug 8 (Obama’s).
    The arguments debunking the descrepancy would be more insightful if they had first comprehended the discrepancy and recognized the process described by Mr Bennet and Tokuyama.

  67. avatar
    joy July 5, 2011 at 1:47 pm #

    Oh … and I have not been able to locate an image of the Waidelich, Stig bc to compare the date accepted on it.

  68. avatar
    J.Potter July 5, 2011 at 2:01 pm #

    I haven’t seen on either. It’s claimed his BC is number 10920.
    Here’s the CNN piece in which they took Mr. Wadelich to the HI DOH to request a BC:

    http://www.conservativerefocus.com/blog5.php/2011/04/26/mainstream-media-s-cnn-reaches-stunning-conclusion-no-merit-to-obama-birth-certificate-skepticism

  69. avatar
    Majority Will July 5, 2011 at 2:06 pm #

    joy: Dr Corsi researched the actual method used by DOH in that era

    I started to take you seriously until I read, “Dr Corsi researched the actual method used by DOH in that era.”

    Wasn’t the actual method invented by Jerome’s super secret source named Mike?

  70. avatar
    Thrifty July 5, 2011 at 2:09 pm #

    joy: Dr Corsi researched the actual method used by DOH in that era : “Bennett’s and Tokuyama’s description of this procedure shows that birth certificates were numbered upon acceptance by the registrar-general, and there was no provision that would allow an accepted birth certificate to be put in a pile for three days before a number was stamped on it.”

    Unless, perhaps, a child was born at 7:24 PM on a Friday.

  71. avatar
    Thrifty July 5, 2011 at 2:12 pm #

    Addendum: Barack Obama’s birth was on a Friday evening. The “date accepted” is the following Tuesday. In fact, this 3 day wait is closer to a 1 day wait. As in, birth certificates aren’t processed on a weekend and they didn’t get around to it on Monday.

    This is of course speculation, which is the best we can do without speaking to the people who actually did things back in 1961, but it’s the most logical guess.

  72. avatar
    gorefan July 5, 2011 at 2:45 pm #

    joy: The “out of sequence” was not based on birth date, but based on Date accepted, as stamped on the birth certificates. In addition, instead of the completely speculative nature of the above linked article in terms of “possible” processing techniques of the certificates and statistical analysis, Dr Corsi researched the actual method used by DOH in that era : “Bennett’s and Tokuyama’s description of this procedure shows that birth certificates were numbered upon acceptance by the registrar-general, and there was no provision that would allow an accepted birth certificate to be put in a pile for three days before a number was stamped on it.”

    I’m sorry Joy but nowhere in the 1955 article by Bennett and Toyuma’s article do they describe when the numbers are assigned.

    Here is the Waldiche BC from a screen shot of the CNN piece.

    http://nativeborncitizen.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/img_0035-small.jpg

    You can save it and then zoom in to read the info.

  73. avatar
    Majority Will July 5, 2011 at 2:52 pm #

    joy: “Dr Corsi”

    Isn’t this the same Jerome Corsi who said, “RAGHEADS are Boy-Bumpers as clearly as they are Women-Haters — it all goes together” and “After he married TerRAHsa, didn’t John Kerry begin practicing Judiasm? He also has paternal grandparents that were Jewish. What religion is John Kerry?” and “Boy buggering in both Islam and Catholicism is okay with the Pope as long as it isn’t reported by the liberal press” and “Mullah Ali’Gore-ah is very proud of his new Bin Laden beard and he hopes others in the Democratic Party will follow his lead. Hell-ary is disappointed she cannot grow a beard, but her press secretary reminds us she can still enroll in flight school.” among many other similar quotes?

    Insightful but not really entertaining. And such a class act.

    Hey, you don’t think Corsi might have an obvious political agenda or any really strong confirmation biases, do you, joy?

  74. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith July 5, 2011 at 2:57 pm #

    G: Welcome back Lucas and Happy Independence Day to you too. In between family holiday celebrations, I had the chance to check out your link and eventually read your whole tale. I wanted to point out that was a very nice family picture at the top of your story and you seem to be in fairly good spirits after your documented ordeal.Two key questions that I didn’t see addressed in the telling that I’m hoping you could shed some light on:1. If you notice Rickey’s post above mine, the records of your arrest listed a slew of aliasees for you and even gave a different name than Lucas D. Smith as your actual name. Can you please address those issues?2. After your endless road trip from hell, you arrived in IA for the charges, saw the judge and were released… so what does that actually mean? I notice you didn’t say that charges were dropped, just that you were released. Does that mean there is a future court date here or what? Similarly, from your story, does the tear up of the FL extradition mean that those charges were actually withdrawn… or just not being dealt with at this time?From an observational standpoint, it is interesting to follow your writing style and notice what things you focus the most on and where those patterns in this latest writing dovetail with your previous ones.As a suggestion for a future career direction that would be more fruitful and rewarding than your whole Obama/Kenya stuff: have you ever considered taking your negative experiences with the whole jail system and turning them into a positive? What I’m getting at is that you could become an advocate (from first hand experience) of reforms for the prison system, including how extraditions are handled. Not only does it sound like a business niche that could use additional players, but more importantly, it would be a useful way to pursue something that not only has personal relevance to you, but also would be beneficial to society as a whole. Win-win if you ask me. Plus it would be a great start to help you rebuild your image and reputation over time.

    Hi G,

    I hope that you had a great 4th of July!

    Thanks for the comment on the family picture. That’s my sister and her daughter. The guy in the back is a family member as well but has asked me not give out specific relation or name.

    The name Andrew Ellis Hall was used by me in 1998. The name Anthony Jones Bolden was also used by me in 1998. Some amount of years after that I provided these two names at the request of Police Detectives to clear up several baffling mysteries and in return I was promised not to be charged with using these fictitious names or any felony warrants attached to either name. Btw, this was NOT identity theft. I’ve never done that in my life.

    The name Nathan Scott Weston was used by me in 1999.

    The other variants of my real name, Lucas Daniel Smith, are the errors of sloppy police officers, sheriffs and county jails employees while keying in, and writing, my name in computers and other reports. The same sort of stuff is found in public search online. Names spelled wrong and dates of birth off a little bit and relatives listed that are really not relatives and previous addresses that have never been lived at.

    In 2010 I was pulled over in Florida for speeding and charged for driving without an American drivers license (Dominican is not good enough) while working for Charles Edward Lincoln, III. They wrote me a ticket for court and everything was fine. Or, everything was fine until a a couple months later when the Department of Homeland security detained me when I was reentering the USA again from abroad and held me in custody while the FBI questioned me about Obama’s birth certificate and, subsequently, made me miss my court date for the ticket and then I was arrested for a warrant for missing the court date. Finally after a week in Miami Dade County Jail I was taken to another county were the judge let me out with 6 months self probation and a fine. I ended up not paying the fine and then Florida put another warrant out for that. That’s the warrant that stands active still today.

    Here in Iowa I am still going to court for the new warrant here (warrant was from 2010 but not served on my until I was arrested en route to airport on May 20, 2011). The Honorable Judge released me from jail but I am still going through Court. I’m innocent and I expect a that the case will be resolved favorably.

    Thank you for your comment on my writing style and your other supportive and productive suggestions and thoughts.

    By the way, I have new blog report up today! Another picture too!

    “Pesky numeric date formats on birth certificates and Western Union receipts.”

    http://www.WasObamaBornInKenya.com/blog

    Feel free to comments. I welcome all thoughts. I don’t like censorship!

  75. avatar
    joy July 5, 2011 at 3:11 pm #

    I can’t see the jpg from this computer–I will have to check it out at home. Yes, I am sure Dr Corsi has a political bias. I do prefer to research the facts. The delay in recieving the BC is not the issue–Friday to Tuesday–the issue is after the date recieved, 8th vs 11th, that the Nordyke twins would be processed later than his … based on the “same day processing”. But that may be as much of a bogey-man as the other speculative processing theories … I don’t have the original 1955 article to reference either.
    I did become a “birther” about 6 months ago … but am open to reason. I think most of us (not all) would be less skeptical with more openness in the records. It’s the whole hidden history full of holes that causes a continuing questioning (funding for expensive schools, closed school records, SSN issued after his job at Baskin Robbins in Hawiai, etc, etc) as well as the radical political agenda that causes one to wonder.

  76. avatar
    Rickey July 5, 2011 at 3:20 pm #

    joy:
    funding for expensive schools

    Have you ever heard of scholarships, student loans, grants, and other financial assistance?

    closed school records

    Everybody’s school records are :”closed.” Your school records are closed. So are mine.

    SSN issued after his job at Baskin Robbins in Hawiai

    His SSN was issued after his job at Baskin-Robbins? That’s a new one. Where did you get that?

  77. avatar
    Rickey July 5, 2011 at 3:23 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith:

    The other variants of my real name, Lucas Daniel Smith, are the errors of sloppy police officers, sheriffs and county jails employees while keying in, and writing, my name in computers and other reports. The same sort of stuff is found in public search online.Names spelled wrong and dates of birth off a little bit and relatives listed that are really not relatives and previous addresses that have never been lived at.

    You mean like all the bogus information about Obama which Orly has represented as fact?

  78. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith July 5, 2011 at 3:26 pm #

    Rickey: You mean like all the bogus information about Obama which Orly has represented as fact?

    Yes.

  79. avatar
    Thrifty July 5, 2011 at 3:27 pm #

    joy: I did become a “birther” about 6 months ago … but am open to reason. I think most of us (not all) would be less skeptical with more openness in the records. It’s the whole hidden history full of holes that causes a continuing questioning (funding for expensive schools, closed school records, SSN issued after his job at Baskin Robbins in Hawiai, etc, etc) as well as the radical political agenda that causes one to wonder.

    The lack of openness is simple privacy rights. A sitting president has as much right to keep his personal records personal as any regular citizen. School records are irrelevant, and were never requested for any previous president. SSN issued later in life because getting an SSN for newborns was not the norm in 1961.

    Here’s one open record that says everything you need: the president’s Certificate of Live Birth, which states that he was born on August 4th, 1961 in Hawaii, the 50th state of America. It serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of this birth (it is a self authenticating document). It has further been testified as authentic by a Republican governor who was at the time campaigning for Barack Obama’s presidential rival, as well as the Director of Health and the State Registrar. What evidence do you have that this is not authentic? Some silly misunderstanding about registration numbers? Some assertion that they are wrong because YOU say they are?

  80. avatar
    Scientist July 5, 2011 at 3:30 pm #

    joy: as well as the radical political agenda

    Obama has been in office for 2 1/2 years. Can you cite anything he has done that would qualify as “radical”? I actually know people who consider themselves (rightly or wrongly) to be radical and they are extremely disappointed in the centrist to right-of-center policies that Obama has followed. So, I am confused…

  81. avatar
    Majority Will July 5, 2011 at 3:39 pm #

    Rickey: His SSN was issued after his job at Baskin-Robbins? That’s a new one. Where did you get that?

    More than likely from an orifice.

  82. avatar
    Majority Will July 5, 2011 at 3:42 pm #

    joy: funding for expensive schools, closed school records, SSN issued after his job at Baskin Robbins in Hawiai, etc, etc) as well as the radical political agenda that causes one to wonder

    Please point out where any of those baseless or erroneous speculations fit into the requirements for eligibility:

    “No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”

  83. avatar
    Majority Will July 5, 2011 at 3:45 pm #

    joy: Yes, I am sure Dr Corsi has a political bias.

    Then, why would you consider him to be a reliable source over, say, the Republican former Governor of the state of Hawaii or the Republican former Director of Health?

  84. avatar
    joy July 5, 2011 at 3:50 pm #

    @scientist, “Radical” is obviously a political point of view, and I think it would be unfair to others to deviate into that bunny trail on this thread?
    @Thrifty, there are still so many inconsistencies in both the administration as well as DOH to make me question their duplicity. Why would they? There is much at stake now if the truth were other than what the face value documents present. If they are forgery, or President Obama is not a Natural Born Citizen, there may be a constitutional crisis beyond our ability as a nation to withstand. That is just speculative as to why many others may cover for him. But if that is going on … the crowd “in on it” is getting bigger and bigger and will eventually implode. Inconsistencis such as the sister suggeting he was adopted by Indonesian Step-father, and the school records that claiming he was Indonesian, the trip through Indonesia on the way to Pakistan, the Lost passport applications by his mother, the scratching him off of her passport, the failure to present a copy of LFBC for 3 years, Gov Abercrombie unable to find the birth certificate as newly elected Gov, etc.
    I understand newborns were not issued SSN in 1961, but before his job at Baskin Robbinsas a teenager he would need one, and before he went to Occidental College–his conneticut ssn was not issued until1977.

  85. avatar
    Slartibartfast July 5, 2011 at 3:50 pm #

    The numbers and dates on all 4 BCs are consistent with the hypothesis that they were alphabetized by last name in batches BEFORE the numbers were assigned* and inconsistent with the hypothesis that the proto-certificates were merely queued before stamping.

    *Doc even estimated the batch size necessary for the observed numbering and compared this to the Hawai’i birth rate.

    joy:
    Oh … and I have not been able to locate an image of the Waidelich, Stig bc to compare the date accepted on it.

  86. avatar
    Thrifty July 5, 2011 at 3:57 pm #

    Ugh. Same old pile of discredited birther vomit. I am officially baffled by bullshit.

    At least Joy is cordial. Thank God for small favors.

  87. avatar
    y_p_w July 5, 2011 at 3:58 pm #

    joy:
    I can’t see the jpg from this computer–I will have to check it out at home.Yes, I am sure Dr Corsi has a political bias.I do prefer to research the facts.The delay in recieving the BC is not the issue–Friday to Tuesday–the issue is after the date recieved, 8th vs 11th, that the Nordyke twins would be processed later than his … based on the “same day processing”.But that may be as much of a bogey-man as the other speculative processing theories

    Yes.

    If you’re going to put a bunch of documents in a bound volume, does it make sense that you’d put it in some order based on when it was received, or perhaps in alphabetical order. There is the case of the Stig Wadelich BC. He was born the same day as the Nordyke twins. His certificate number is way, way after both Obama’s or the Nordyke twins.

  88. avatar
    Thrifty July 5, 2011 at 4:00 pm #

    Joy. How do you know that George W. Bush was not born in Switzerland? We never saw his birth certificate.

    How do you know that Bill Clinton was not born in Russia? We never saw his birth certificate?

    How do you know that Ronald Reagan was not born in Nigeria? We never saw his birth certificate.

    I am, however, extremely sure that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii. I have seen his birth certificate.

  89. avatar
    joy July 5, 2011 at 4:03 pm #

    Yes, that does make since … I would just like to see that Date received stamp on Wadelich BC, and then I’ll be pretty close to putting this particularly large evidentiary piece behind me. Thanks.

    y_p_w: Yes.If you’re going to put a bunch of documents in a bound volume, does it make sense that you’d put it in some order based on when it was received, or perhaps in alphabetical order. There is the case of the Stig Wadelich BC. He was born the same day as the Nordyke twins. His certificate number is way, way after both Obama’s or the Nordyke twins.

  90. avatar
    Thrifty July 5, 2011 at 4:04 pm #

    joy: If they are forgery, or President Obama is not a Natural Born Citizen, there may be a constitutional crisis beyond our ability as a nation to withstand. That is just speculative as to why many others may cover for him. But if that is going on … the crowd “in on it” is getting bigger and bigger and will eventually implode.

    IF IF IF! And if mankind was 50 years ago actually subjugated by sentient machines who created the world we perceive as a simulation to use as a power source, then none of this matters and Barack Obama is just another guy floating naked in a tube of goo.

  91. avatar
    joy July 5, 2011 at 4:05 pm #

    The premise here is why question in the first place. I do think the whole birther phenom does highlight the need for a mechanism to ensure consitutional requirements are met. A better example is John McCain, in whom Senator Obama cosponsored a bill to establish his eligibility based on two citizen parents. It is a question for those who respect the constitution, simply based on having a non-American father.

    Thrifty: Joy. How do you know that George W. Bush was not born in Switzerland? We never saw his birth certificate.How do you know that Bill Clinton was not born in Russia? We never saw his birth certificate? How do you know that Ronald Reagan was not born in Nigeria? We never saw his birth certificate.I am, however, extremely sure that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii. I have seen his birth certificate.

  92. avatar
    joy July 5, 2011 at 4:12 pm #

    Gov Lingle never claimed to see the document and verify anything … she sent her health director to investigae … obviously Dr Fukino is “in on this” if there is a conspiracy. The Gov Lingle statement does not provide further evidence one way or another … but the fact that Gov Abercrombie could not find it after making it part of his campaign, was troubling.

    Majority Will: Then, why would you consider him to be a reliable source over, say, the Republican former Governor of the state of Hawaii or the Republican former Director of Health?

  93. avatar
    Thrifty July 5, 2011 at 4:17 pm #

    joy: The premise here is why question in the first place. I do think the whole birther phenom does highlight the need for a mechanism to ensure consitutional requirements are met. A better example is John McCain, in whom Senator Obama cosponsored a bill to establish his eligibility based on two citizen parents. It is a question for those who respect the constitution, simply based on having a non-American father.

    The constitutional requirements were met on August 4th, 1996, when Barack Obama turned 35. He didn’t run for President until 12 years later, but that’s immaterial. He proved that he met the requirements better than any presidential candidate in history when he released a birth certificate during the campaign. He proved it further in April when he released a second birth certificate.

  94. avatar
    Thrifty July 5, 2011 at 4:18 pm #

    joy: Gov Lingle never claimed to see the document and verify anything … she sent her health director to investigae … obviously Dr Fukino is “in on this” if there is a conspiracy. The Gov Lingle statement does not provide further evidence one way or another … but the fact that Gov Abercrombie could not find it after making it part of his campaign, was troubling.

    More birther lies. Abercrombie never claimed he couldn’t find the certificate. He couldn’t find anything that was legal to release to the public.

  95. avatar
    gorefan July 5, 2011 at 4:18 pm #

    joy: in whom Senator Obama cosponsored a bill to establish his eligibility based on two citizen parents. It is a question for those who respect the constitution, simply based on having a non-American father.

    No, Joy, the McCain Resolution for two citizen parents only applies to children born outside the jursidiction of the US.

    And as William Rawle said, ““Therefore every person born within the United States, its territories or districts, whether the parents are citizens or aliens, is a natural born citizen in the sense of the Constitution”

    William Rawle was appointed by President Washington to be the United States District Attorney for Pennsylvania.

  96. avatar
    joy July 5, 2011 at 4:22 pm #

    Thrifty: The constitutional requirements were met on August 4th, 1996, when Barack Obama turned 35. He didn’t run for President until 12 years later, but that’s immaterial. He proved that he met the requirements better than any presidential candidate in history when he released a birth certificate during the campaign. He proved it further in April when he released a second birth certificate.

    Right … I am not convinced yet, but I hope that is the case. I am not convinced he meets the natural born citizen requirement … and I recognize a good number of people don’t respect the consitution … I do.
    I am also not convinced the birth certificate is not a fraud — a forensic expert’s ability to investigae the hard copy would work for me. Why do I hesitate to take it at face value? –the inconsistencies and delay/fight to show it. It is not an out of the box question to want to see it–it is a constitutional requirement to prove eligibility.

  97. avatar
    Slartibartfast July 5, 2011 at 4:24 pm #

    joy:
    @Thrifty, there are still so many inconsistencies in both the administration as well as DOH to make me question their duplicity.

    There really hasn’t been any inconsistency in any of the statements or documents from the administration or the Hawai’i DoH regarding the president’s birth.

    Why would they?There is much at stake now if the truth were other than what the face value documents present.

    Without evidence to the contrary (and none has come to light to date), we must take the documents and statements of the Hawai’i DoH at face value – according to the Constitution, anyway.

    If they are forgery, or President Obama is not a Natural Born Citizen, there may be a constitutional crisis beyond our ability as a nation to withstand.

    No crisis. If evidence that President Obama was not a natural born citizen was unearthed then it would be incumbent on Congress to investigate and, if necessary, to impeach and, if appropriate, to convict. It’s all spelled out in the Constitution – haven’t you read it?

    That is just speculative as to why many others may cover for him.But if that is going on … the crowd “in on it” is getting bigger and bigger and will eventually implode.

    The size of conspiracy required by this hypothesis would have imploded long ago.

    Inconsistencis such as the sister suggeting he was adopted by Indonesian Step-father,

    That’s a new one, but:

    1. He could not legally have been adopted by Lolo Soetoro (logistically impossible according to Indonesian law)

    1b. If he was adopted in Indonesia, he would still have been “Barack Obama” by Muslim tradition (to do otherwise would be an insult to the Obamas and to Allah)

    2. By Indonesian law he could not have obtained citizenship.

    2b. Even if he obtained Indonesian citizenship, it wouldn’t have affected his US (birthright) citizenship.

    3. He could not have renounced his US citizenship durning his tenure in Indonesia (nor could his mother or [alleged] adoptive father).

    So if you have a quote from Maya, feel free to present it, but it has absolutely no bearing on the president’s eligibility (or the consistency of his story).

    and the school records that claiming he was Indonesian,

    And born in Hawai’i – making him a natural born citizen of the US regardless of anything that happened in Indonesia when he was a child.

    the trip through Indonesia on the way to Pakistan,

    He traveled to a place where he spent several years (and presumably still had friends) which was on the way to a place he was visiting – what’s suspicious about that?

    the Lost passport applications by his mother,

    One (or more) of his mother’s passport applications was destroyed in a routine manner – or were memos issued by government agencies in the ’80s a part of the cover-up?

    the scratching him off of her passport,

    It seems to me that any rational person would assume she decided to get him his own passport (so he could, for instance, travel to Hawai’i by himself) at that point. Do you have an alternate, malevolent, hypothesis as to why this was done?

    the failure to present a copy of LFBC for 3 years,

    We now now that he presented a copy of his legitimate birth certificate which proves him to be a natural born citizen (and proves that his middle name is not Muhammad) BEFORE the birthers started making eligibility claims. He is the only presidential candidate (or sitting president) ever to do so. The fact that after three years he decided to completely marginalize the birthers with a document obtained by special request to the DoH is irrelevant.

    Gov Abercrombie unable to find the birth certificate as newly elected Gov,

    That’s a completely inaccurate characterization of what Governor Abercrombie said – you should either find a direct quote (which doesn’t exist) or admit that you are wrong about this.

    etc.

    I doubt your etcetera contains anything of significance…

    I understand newborns were not issued SSN in 1961, but before his job at Baskin Robbinsas a teenager he would need one, and before he went to Occidental College–his conneticut ssn was not issued until1977.

    At which time he was a teenager… what’s the problem?

  98. avatar
    gorefan July 5, 2011 at 4:24 pm #

    joy: the inconsistencies and delay/fight to show it.

    What delayed fight?

  99. avatar
    joy July 5, 2011 at 4:28 pm #

    gorefan: No, Joy, the McCain Resolution for two citizen parents only applies to children born outside the jursidiction of the US. And as William Rawle said, ““Therefore every person born within the United States, its territories or districts, whether the parents are citizens or aliens, is a natural born citizen in the sense of the Constitution”William Rawle was appointed by President Washington to be the United States District Attorney for Pennsylvania.

    Thanks. I did find his, “A VIEW OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE United States of America.
    BY WILLIAM RAWLE, SECOND EDITION.” but I can’t find his comment on natural born citizen. Do you have a reference? (This is a helpful discussion, so much better than name-calling).

  100. avatar
    Thrifty July 5, 2011 at 4:28 pm #

    joy: I am also not convinced the birth certificate is not a fraud — a forensic expert’s ability to investigae the hard copy would work for me. Why do I hesitate to take it at face value? –the inconsistencies and delay/fight to show it. It is not an out of the box question to want to see it–it is a constitutional requirement to prove eligibility.

    What delay? The Certificate of Live Birth was issued before Birtherism took flight. He released it 3 years ago during the campaign.

    The state of Hawaii confirms that they issued the Long Form to him. Did they release a forged long form? Why would they do that? Does the DMV release forged drivers licenses? Does the Treasury Department release counterfeit bills?

    You aren’t convinced that either BC is genuine and never will be. You are a conspiracy theorist. Intellectually dishonest and building a case on non-falsifiable claims. Any counter evidence simply expands the conspiracy theory to add more people who must be in on it.

  101. avatar
    Thrifty July 5, 2011 at 4:31 pm #

    I’m gonna duck out now. I have a hard time keeping a cool head in the face of such obstinance. You guys take over.

  102. avatar
    gorefan July 5, 2011 at 4:33 pm #

    Slartibartfast: That’s a new one, but:

    It is based on a misunderstanding of what the President’s sister said. Someone asked her a question on facebook and she answered it:

    “You mentioned the adoption laws of Indonesia that you saw as related to my brother’s legitimacy (you were suggesting that because my father, his stepfather, had adopted him, that my brother was no longer American) and I said that I had no idea about Indonesian adoption law”

    The PResident’s sister is repeating the questioners assertions.

  103. avatar
    Rickey July 5, 2011 at 4:38 pm #

    joy:
    Inconsistencies such as the sister suggesting he was adopted by Indonesian Step-father

    His sister has never suggested any such thing, and even if Obama had been adopted by Lolo Soetoro it would be irrelevant to his eligibility to be President. .

    the trip through Indonesia on the way to Pakistan

    What is surprising about that? His mother was living in Indonesia, so he stopped there to see her.

    the scratching him off of her passport

    He was removed from his mother’s passport because he was traveling to Hawaii unaccompanied and needed hjs own passport.

    the failure to present a copy of LFBC for 3 years

    John McCain still hasn’t presented his LFBC. Do you find that to be suspicious?

    Gov Abercrombie unable to find the birth certificate as newly elected Gov, etc.

    Governor Abercrombie never said that he was “unable to find the birth certificate.” He wasn’t looking for the birth certificate. He was looking for other records which me might be able to release without running afoul of Hawaii statutes.

    I understand newborns were not issued SSN in 1961, but before his job at Baskin Robbinsas a teenager he would need one, and before he went to Occidental College–his conneticut ssn was not issued until1977

    Huh? Obama was 16 years old when his SSN was issued. He was 18 when he started classes at Occidental, so he had his SSN for about two years by then.

  104. avatar
    gorefan July 5, 2011 at 4:45 pm #

    joy: Do you have a reference?

    Of course.

    http://www.constitution.org/wr/rawle_09.htm

    “The citizens of each state constituted the citizens of the United States when the Constitution was adopted. The rights which appertained to them as citizens of those respective commonwealths, accompanied them in the formation of the great, compound commonwealth which ensued. They became citizens of the latter, without ceasing to be citizens of the former, and he who was subsequently born a citizen of a state, became at the moment of his birth a citizen of the United States. Therefore every person born within the United States, its territories or districts, whether the parents are citizens or aliens, is a natural born citizen in the sense of the Constitution, and entitled to all the rights and privileges appertaining to that capacity. It is an error to suppose, as some (and even so great a mind as Locke) have done, that a child is born a citizen of no country and subject of no government, and that be so continues till the age of discretion, when he is at liberty to put himself under what government he pleases. How far the adult possesses this power will hereafter be considered, but surely it would be unjust both to the state and to the infant, to withhold the quality of the citizen until those years of discretion were attained. Under our Constitution the question is settled by its express language, and when we are informed that, excepting those who were citizens, (however the capacity was acquired,) at the time the Constitution was adopted, no person is eligible to the office of president unless he is a natural born citizen, the principle that the place of birth creates the relative quality is established as to us.”

    There is also the writings of Zephaniah Swift, US Congressman at the same time as James Madison. Swift was a supporter of Alexander Hamilton. In his books on the laws of Connecticut published in 1795, he wrote,

    “The children of aliens born in this state are considerded as natural born subjects and have the same rights with the rest of the citizens. “

    Swift later became the Chief Justice of the Connecticut Supreme Court.

  105. avatar
    joy July 5, 2011 at 4:51 pm #

    Slartibartfast, excellent response. Thanks for your time and indulgence in helping me settle this in my mind. That is why I am in this forum … to get the other side. The inconsistencies I was referring to was the DOH suggesting it was impossible to obtain LFBC while evidence of Hawaii citizens able to obtain them during the same time. And of course, Tim Adams affidavit that it was well-known that there was no certificate.
    OK–I can’t quote the Gov Abercrombie on this, strictly statement by silence until April of this year. The only quote was from third hand interview–not good evidence, I was wrong, thanks.
    I do think that it would be a crisis–of course that is speculation on anyone’s part. I guess that 20-30% don’t care what the consitution says, and probably 40% of those who voted for him would want him to stay irregardless. I don’t think it would be a smooth tranistion, due to his historic status.
    Out of curiousity, where do you obtain all of your knowledge of Indonesian law? If he would not have been allowed to be adopted or change his name, why was his name listed as Barry Soetoro on the school document?
    I guess I was a bozo on the SSN math too.

    Slartibartfast: There really hasn’t been any inconsistency in any of the statements or documents from the administration or the Hawai’i DoH regarding the president’s birth.Without evidence to the contrary (and none has come to light to date), we must take the documents and statements of the Hawai’i DoH at face value – according to the Constitution, anyway.No crisis. If evidence that President Obama was not a natural born citizen was unearthed then it would be incumbent on Congress to investigate and, if necessary, to impeach and, if appropriate, to convict. It’s all spelled out in the Constitution – haven’t you read it?The size of conspiracy required by this hypothesis would have imploded long ago.That’s a new one, but:1. He could not legally have been adopted by Lolo Soetoro (logistically impossible according to Indonesian law)1b. If he was adopted in Indonesia, he would still have been “Barack Obama” by Muslim tradition (to do otherwise would be an insult to the Obamas and to Allah)2. By Indonesian law he could not have obtained citizenship.2b. Even if he obtained Indonesian citizenship, it wouldn’t have affected his US (birthright) citizenship.3. He could not have renounced his US citizenship durning his tenure in Indonesia (nor could his mother or [alleged] adoptive father).So if you have a quote from Maya, feel free to present it, but it has absolutely no bearing on the president’s eligibility (or the consistency of his story).And born in Hawai’i – making him a natural born citizen of the US regardless of anything that happened in Indonesia when he was a child.He traveled to a place where he spent several years (and presumably still had friends) which was on the way to a place he was visiting – what’s suspicious about that?One (or more) of his mother’s passport applications was destroyed in a routine manner – or were memos issued by government agencies in the ’80s a part of the cover-up?It seems to me that any rational person would assume she decided to get him his own passport (so he could, for instance, travel to Hawai’i by himself) at that point. Do you have an alternate, malevolent, hypothesis as to why this was done?We now now that he presented a copy of his legitimate birth certificate which proves him to be a natural born citizen (and proves that his middle name is not Muhammad) BEFORE the birthers started making eligibility claims. He is the only presidential candidate (or sitting president) ever to do so. The fact that after three years he decided to completely marginalize the birthers with a document obtained by special request to the DoH is irrelevant.That’s a completely inaccurate characterization of what Governor Abercrombie said – you should either find a direct quote (which doesn’t exist) or admit that you are wrong about this.I doubt your etcetera contains anything of significance…At which time he was a teenager… what’s the problem?

  106. avatar
    Slartibartfast July 5, 2011 at 4:52 pm #

    Joy,

    I think you are missing the forest for the trees – according to the full faith and credit clause of the Constitution, the Hawai’i DoH is the ultimate authority on Hawai’ian birth certificates and as such would require truly extraordinary evidence (rather than none at all) to impeach. President Obama’s birth certificate is valid BECAUSE the original is in the vault at the DoH (which has been repeatedly attested to by multiple public officials of both parties). Forensic examination is pointless because once they open the vault they’re done.

  107. avatar
    Majority Will July 5, 2011 at 4:54 pm #

    joy: obviously Dr Fukino is “in on this” if there is a conspiracy

    That’s obviously a pretty disgusting accusation of an esteemed civil servant and honored physician regardless of political affiliation especially with only your suspicions and speculations of which are based on outright falsehoods or quotes taken out of context.

  108. avatar
    Slartibartfast July 5, 2011 at 4:54 pm #

    Thanks. I guess this proves that Maya didn’t take Leo McGarry’s advice about not accepting the premise of the question – and very little else…

    gorefan: It is based on a misunderstanding of what the President’s sister said.Someone asked her a question on facebook and she answered it:

    “You mentioned the adoption laws of Indonesia that you saw as related to my brother’s legitimacy (you were suggesting that because my father, his stepfather, had adopted him, that my brother was no longer American) and I said that I had no idea about Indonesian adoption law”

    The PResident’s sister is repeating the questioners assertions.

  109. avatar
    joy July 5, 2011 at 4:55 pm #

    Well, I don’t think I am unconvinceable–just have reservations based on what I’ve seen/read. I think I’ve answered why I think the DOH would release a forgery at this point.
    Yes, definitely a little conspiracy theorist in me … like, I am not sure that the administration didn’t knowing release that ridiculous pdf file to just “stir the waters” and distract.

    Thrifty: What delay? The Certificate of Live Birth was issued before Birtherism took flight. He released it 3 years ago during the campaign.The state of Hawaii confirms that they issued the Long Form to him. Did they release a forged long form? Why would they do that? Does the DMV release forged drivers licenses? Does the Treasury Department release counterfeit bills?You aren’t convinced that either BC is genuine and never will be. You are a conspiracy theorist. Intellectually dishonest and building a case on non-falsifiable claims. Any counter evidence simply expands the conspiracy theory to add more people who must be in on it.

  110. avatar
    Majority Will July 5, 2011 at 4:58 pm #

    joy: And of course, Tim Adams affidavit that it was well-known that there was no certificate.

    I fail to see why Tim Adams would have any authority or credibility whatsoever.

  111. avatar
    joy July 5, 2011 at 4:59 pm #

    thank you very much.

    gorefan: Of course.http://www.constitution.org/wr/rawle_09.htm“The citizens of each state constituted the citizens of the United States when the Constitution was adopted. The rights which appertained to them as citizens of those respective commonwealths, accompanied them in the formation of the great, compound commonwealth which ensued. They became citizens of the latter, without ceasing to be citizens of the former, and he who was subsequently born a citizen of a state, became at the moment of his birth a citizen of the United States. Therefore every person born within the United States, its territories or districts, whether the parents are citizens or aliens, is a natural born citizen in the sense of the Constitution, and entitled to all the rights and privileges appertaining to that capacity. It is an error to suppose, as some (and even so great a mind as Locke) have done, that a child is born a citizen of no country and subject of no government, and that be so continues till the age of discretion, when he is at liberty to put himself under what government he pleases. How far the adult possesses this power will hereafter be considered, but surely it would be unjust both to the state and to the infant, to withhold the quality of the citizen until those years of discretion were attained. Under our Constitution the question is settled by its express language, and when we are informed that, excepting those who were citizens, (however the capacity was acquired,) at the time the Constitution was adopted, no person is eligible to the office of president unless he is a natural born citizen, the principle that the place of birth creates the relative quality is established as to us.”There is also the writings of Zephaniah Swift, US Congressman at the same time as James Madison. Swift was a supporter of Alexander Hamilton. In his books on the laws of Connecticut published in 1795, he wrote,“The children of aliens born in this state are considerded as natural born subjects and have the same rights with the rest of the citizens. “Swift later became the Chief Justice of the Connecticut Supreme Court.

  112. avatar
    Ballantine July 5, 2011 at 5:05 pm #

    Gee, we have another troll bringing up all the same old nonsense. I guess when a white candidate evere has to produce a birth certificate, you will demand all the same evidence if some self-proclaimed on-line expert thinks its a fake. You wikll want forensic examination, witnesses, hospital records? That will be the day. Where are the calls for the republican candidates to prove they are natural born? Anyone heard one yet. The fact is that Obama has provided more evidence that anyone in history with two administration in Hawaii supporting his claims. If you don’t like that, it’s too bad. You don’t get to keep demanding more evidence. If you don’t like it, go to court and prove something.

    You clearly don’t understand the law of expatriation, so it is not worth talking about. Becoming an Indoensian citizen woudl not affect his US citizenship if in fact you had evidence he became an Indonesian citizen. A minor child would never be viewed as having the capacity to expatriate. Of course, you want Obama to prove a negative that he never lost his citizenship which is of course impossible. Any other candidates have to do that?

    Finally, there was never any process for McCain. The Senate passed a resolution without debate for their friend. The only research involved was the letter from Tribe and Olson entered into the Congressional record that made clear both Obama and McCain would be eligible. It was charitable to McCain as there is a good case McCain wasn’t even a citizen at birth. With respect to Obama, the supreme court has already addressed someone with his situtation. It’s just that birthers are not smart enough to read supreme court case law.

  113. avatar
    Scientist July 5, 2011 at 5:05 pm #

    joy: @scientist, “Radical” is obviously a political point of view, and I think it would be unfair to others to deviate into that bunny trail on this thread?

    You brought it up, not me

    joy: I do think that it would be a crisis–

    If you truly believe that, then frankly you should keep quiet about the entire matter and allow Obama to complete his term and either be re-elected or defeated and there will be no crisis.. Or are you looking to harm your country??? I think you are.
    I think you might even be a paid agent of some foreign power. But perhaps you can prove you aren’t???

  114. avatar
    joy July 5, 2011 at 5:06 pm #

    I am not certain if he submitted his LFBC or not … but his origins were extensively investigated and brought before the Senate. The exact location of the hospital was researched and litigated. The point being in this and other examples in history of parentage and eligibility being contested … President Obama is not unique in the citizens and especially political opponents wanting to ascertain constitutional eligibility.

    OK … not all of my reservations are gone–but I am getting closer. When I get home I want to look at the Stig date accepted stamp, and I might be ready to move on. I thank all for a respectful conversation.

    Rickey: His sister has never suggested any such thing, and even if Obama had been adopted by Lolo Soetoro it would be irrelevant to his eligibility to be President. . the trip through Indonesia on the way to PakistanWhat is surprising about that? His mother was living in Indonesia, so he stopped there to see her.the scratching him off of her passportHe was removed from his mother’s passport because he was traveling to Hawaii unaccompanied and needed hjs own passport.the failure to present a copy of LFBC for 3 yearsJohn McCain still hasn’t presented his LFBC. Do you find that to be suspicious?Gov Abercrombie unable to find the birth certificate as newly elected Gov, etc.Governor Abercrombie never said that he was “unable to find the birth certificate.” He wasn’t looking for the birth certificate. He was looking for other records which me might be able to release without running afoul of Hawaii statutes.I understand newborns were not issued SSN in 1961, but before his job at Baskin Robbinsas a teenager he would need one, and before he went to Occidental College–his conneticut ssn was not issued until1977Huh? Obama was 16 years old when his SSN was issued. He was 18 when he started classes at Occidental, so he had his SSN for about two years by then.

  115. avatar
    joy July 5, 2011 at 5:13 pm #

    Right … the radical adenda was an open disclaimer as to my bias … but not wanting to dive into that.

    The rest is funny. Thanks for the laugh.

    Scientist: You brought it up, not meIf you truly believe that, then frankly you should keep quiet about the entire matter and allow Obama to complete his term and either be re-elected or defeated and there will be no crisis.. Or are you looking to harm your country??? I think you are.I think you might even be a paid agent of some foreign power. But perhaps you can prove you aren’t???

  116. avatar
    Reality Check July 5, 2011 at 5:18 pm #

    joy

    If you are sincere please have patience. Most, actually every one, of the questions you have asked have been asked and explained dozens of times on this web site and others. Also, several people have started out saying that they only have a few sincere questions only to be revealed as raving lunatics after finding that folks here could provide ready answers for questions they were sure would stump everyone. You have found a good place for accurate information.

  117. avatar
    Sef July 5, 2011 at 5:18 pm #

    Ballantine: I guess when a white candidate evere has to produce a birth certificate, you will demand all the same evidence if some self-proclaimed on-line expert thinks its a fake.

    Race may no longer be the deciding factor. Has Cain ever been asked to produce a BC?

  118. avatar
    Thrifty July 5, 2011 at 5:26 pm #

    Reality Check: joyIf you are sincere please have patience. Most, actually every one, of the questions you have asked have been asked and explained dozens of times on this web site and others. Also, several people have started out saying that they only have a few sincere questions only to be revealed as raving lunatics after finding that folks here could provide ready answers for questions they were sure would stump everyone. You have found a good place for accurate information.

    RC puts it well. That’s why I was a bit harsh. I apologize for being so abrasive. It’s just that we get 2 or 3 birthers a week who come in playing the part of “concern troll” — someone who acts as a meek and humble seeker of truth but after throwing out the same birther tropes and us responding with the same rebuttals for the umpteenth time, rather than admit possible error and humility, they become raging combative loons.

  119. avatar
    Thrifty July 5, 2011 at 5:27 pm #

    Sef: Race may no longer be the deciding factor. Has Cain ever been asked to produce a BC?

    Herman Cain gets a pass because he’s the beard for 2011.

  120. avatar
    Thrifty July 5, 2011 at 5:27 pm #

    Uh… 2012 I mean.

  121. avatar
    Scientist July 5, 2011 at 5:28 pm #

    joy: The rest is funny. Thanks for the laugh

    You may think being a paid agent or dupe of hostile foreign powers is funny. Many people don’t.

    Now please show me the birth certificates and school records and everything else on all previous presidents and all the other candidates for 2012. Thanks. Oh and if you do, provide proof positive that they aren’t forgeries. Thanks again

  122. avatar
    Scientist July 5, 2011 at 5:29 pm #

    joy: Right … the radical adenda was an open disclaimer as to my bias … but not wanting to dive into that.

    Dive, i insist. Or retract it. One or the other.

  123. avatar
    gorefan July 5, 2011 at 5:35 pm #

    joy: And of course, Tim Adams affidavit that it was well-known that there was no certificate.

    You say the Dr. Fukino is “in on it”, yet you reference Tim Adams, whose affidavit says that some unnamed person or persons told him something second hand.

    I think you can see why people might have their doubts about your objectivity.

    Did you know that Mr. Adams supervisor said he was a low level data entry clerk?

  124. avatar
    Expelliarmus July 5, 2011 at 5:39 pm #

    joy: When I get home I want to look at the Stig date accepted stamp, and I might be ready to move on. I thank all for a respectful conversation.

    You will see from the image that it is August 8, same day as Obama.

    I’d note that the way that CNN found Stig is that his name was listed in birth announcements int the same newspaper, same day of publication, as Obama’s. So they were starting with someone whose birth was recorded in the same time frame.

  125. avatar
    Slartibartfast July 5, 2011 at 5:56 pm #

    joy: Slartibartfast, excellent response.

    Thank you.

    Thanks for your time and indulgence in helping me settle this in my mind.

    You’re welcome – I don’t believe that any of the obots here believe that you have an open mind (but if you do, then you will be able to demonstrate it easily), but that doesn’t mean we wont present the facts and the law as best we understand them… and hey, we could be wrong. Here’s hoping you’ll be the one to shock us all. ;-)

    That is why I am in this forum … to get the other side.

    If you do come with an open mind (i.e. you are not prejudiced against President Obama in some way and you are not clinging to fallacies and claiming that they are fact) then I believe that you will find that this side rocks! Just here at Doc C’s you can find an AMAZING amount of information (with citations to original sources and commentary by credible authorities) with which you can support your arguments if you decide to join the Dark Side.

    The inconsistencies I was referring to was the DOH suggesting it was impossible to obtain LFBC while evidence of Hawaii citizens able to obtain them during the same time.

    Ah. In 2001 (I believe – if I make any factual errors, I’m sure someone here will correct me…) the Hawai’i DoH stopped issuing the LF and made the short form the official document – before this, long forms could be obtained (Mikki Booth’s child’s LF, for instance). After this, there is only evidence of two long forms being released: one (presumably non-certified) copy released to (my assumption) a birther after a significant effort on their part and one (extremely well documented and authenticated) that was released at the special request of the President of the United States. It is not DoH policy to issue long forms any more, but no Obot is saying that they are impossible to obtain* (as long as you are satisfied with a non-certified copy which is useless for all legal purposes or you are POTUS ;-)).

    * It is certainly possible that some obot said this before becoming aware of these exceptions, but I doubt you will find any that knowingly dispute my summary.

    And of course, Tim Adams affidavit that it was well-known that there was no certificate.

    It is also well-known that Tim Adams is a liar (and associated with white supremacists) – he claimed to have access to information which he did not have access to (I’m sure one of the lawyers here could explain why his affidavit is worthless as a legal document).

    OK–I can’t quote the Gov Abercrombie on this, strictly statement by silence until April of this year. The only quote was from third hand interview–not good evidence, I was wrong, thanks.

    Careful – if you admit too much you’ll give us evil obots one hell of a shock! ;-) I think Governor A. (name too long, got lazy ;-)) is best understood as an old man who saw his long dead friends being disrespected in a (to him) very unseemly way and tried to do something about it until he was told that there was nothing within the law that he could do. Remember, President Obama can call up Governor Neil and ask a favor anytime he wants to, but “the president’s parent’s old college buddy” isn’t exactly a direct line to the Oval Office (though, admittedly, “Governor” would get you through if necessary…).

    I do think that it would be a crisis–of course that is speculation on anyone’s part.

    I (and, I believe, most here) think that the system works just fine as is – both the Clinton and McCain campaigns looked into this issue and decided that it was not worth pursuing – a truly ineligible candidate would find it to be a death blow to their campaign as many people (of either party) wouldn’t support an ineligible candidate. The birthers are peddling a solution (a coup against the legitimate POTUS) in search of a problem in a time when we face extremely serious problems on a wide array of issues – I think that this is an incredibly foolish waste of time (although it also tends to be hilarious from time to time).

    I guess that 20-30% don’t care what the consitution says, and probably 40% of those who voted for him would want him to stay irregardless.

    I might quibble about the numbers, but yeah.

    I don’t think it would be a smooth tranistion, due to his historic status.

    I don’t believe that an ineligible candidate would be nominated by a party, let alone win the general election and even if they did, I believe the issue would be raised in the electoral college and Congress (President Bush’s election in 2004 was challenged in Congress, by the way, so they do know about that line in the Constitution) and that as a last resort the chief justice of the SCOTUS would probably refuse to swear the president in to shine light on the issue. The fact that none of these things happened with President Obama speaks volumes to me.

    Out of curiousity, where do you obtain all of your knowledge of Indonesian law?

    Bad Fiction (under “The Good” below) -> Birther Mythbusting -> Indonesia something or other. You can also find the information (and much more) in Doc’s debunker’s guide (linked under his picture in the right margin).

    If he would not have been allowed to be adopted or change his name, why was his name listed as Barry Soetoro on the school document?

    My guess – his step father signed him up as Indonesian (and muslim) out of expediency. Indonesian children have a right to an education – if he had registered President Obama as American he may have had to pay for his schooling. That’s only speculation and there are other reasonable scenarios, but even if you consider this document the gospel truth, all that it proves is that President Obama is a natural born citizen due to his birth in Hawai’i and the failure of his father to be either a diplomat or part of an invading army.

    I guess I was a bozo on the SSN math too.

    No problem.

  126. avatar
    joy July 5, 2011 at 7:48 pm #

    Roger that … then I think that takes care of the sequence question I first came in here with … doesn’t seem to be a problem after all ;)

    Expelliarmus: joy

  127. avatar
    Arthur July 5, 2011 at 7:52 pm #

    I’m wondering if “Joy” is Lucas Smith? Or maybe his sister? Something about Joy’s style, manner, and questions . . . Lucas, are you trying to pull one over on us? Or am I falling into the blackhole of conspiratorial thinking? . . . Danger, Will Robinson, danger!

  128. avatar
    Scientist July 5, 2011 at 8:11 pm #

    Arthur: I’m wondering if “Joy” is Lucas Smith? Or maybe his sister? Something about Joy’s style, manner, and questions . . . Lucas, are you trying to pull one over on us? Or am I falling into the blackhole of conspiratorial thinking? . . . Danger, Will Robinson, danger!

    I don’t know. But i do know that joy (or Lucas) has a radical agenda- trying to overturn a legitimate election 2 1/2 years after the fact. That is so radical that words fail me…

  129. avatar
    gorefan July 5, 2011 at 8:24 pm #

    joy: doesn’t seem to be a problem after all

    Joy, when you read William Rawle’s statement pay attention to the last sentence,

    “at the time the Constitution was adopted, no person is eligible to the office of president unless he is a natural born citizen, the principle that the place of birth creates the relative quality is established as to us.”

    Place of birth was critical to the founders. Compare what Rawle wrote to what James Madison said on the floor of the House of Representatives in 1789,

    “It is an established maxim, that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth, however, derives its force sometimes from place, and sometimes from parentage; but, in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States.”

    And what Zephaniah Swift wrote in 1795,

    “It is an established maxim, received by all political writers, that every person owes a natural allegiance to the government of that country in which he is born.”

    And with how allegiance was determined in England in the 1760’s,

    .”Natural allegiance is such as is due from all men born within the king’s dominions immediately upon their birth.” William Blackstone’s “Commentaries on the Laws of England”

    This was the Founders and the Framers understanding of how allegiance was determined and the meaning of the term “natural born” at the time the Constitution was written.

    And we know that they used Blackstone’s Commentaries as a guide at the Constitutional Convention.

    “Mr. DICKENSON mentioned to the House that on examining Blackstone’s Commentaries, he found that the terms, “ex post facto” related to criminal cases only”
    James Madison, “Notes on the Debates in the Federal Convention”, August 29, 1787

    We also know that one of the Framers, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, studied law at Oxford University under Justice Blackstone.

  130. avatar
    Northland10 July 5, 2011 at 8:32 pm #

    joy: Out of curiousity, where do you obtain all of your knowledge of Indonesian law?

    Well, since many birthers are found of calling the President a Muslim, you could start with the Qur’an 33:4-5 (Al-Ahzab), which, if I recall, either Patrick at Bad Fiction or somebody else pointed out a while ago.

    Allah has not made for any man two hearts in his (one) body: nor has He made your wives whom ye divorce by Zihar your mothers: nor has He made your adopted sons your sons. Such is (only) your (manner of) speech by your mouths. But Allah tells (you) the Truth, and He shows the (right) Way.

    Call them by (the names of) their fathers: that is juster in the sight of Allah. But if ye know not their father’s (names, call them) your Brothers in faith, or your maulas. But there is no blame on you if ye make a mistake therein: (what counts is) the intention of your hearts: and Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

    My understanding of this and other parts is that, for Islam, when you adopt a child you caring for a child, which is good, but you never replace the birthright of that child.

  131. avatar
    Rickey July 5, 2011 at 9:38 pm #

    joy:
    I am not certain if he submitted his LFBC or not … but his origins were extensively investigated and brought before the Senate.The exact location of the hospital was researched and litigated.

    The location of McCain’s birthplace hospital was never litigated. In one case, Hollander v. McCain, the plaintiff introduced an obviously forged birth certificate which claimed that McCain was born at a civilian hospital in Colon, Panama. Besides being an obvious forgery, the birth certificate made no sense. As the wife of a Navy officer, McCain’s mother was entitled to free medical care from American doctors at the base hospital at the Coco Solo Naval Station, where McCain’s father was stationed. Why would the McCains pay to have a baby delivered in a civilian hospital by Panamanian doctors when they could have the baby delivered by an American doctor for the low, low price of free?

    McCain’s actual birth certificate was never made public, although the McCain campaign did allow one reporter from the Washington Post to look at it. There also is a contemporaneous newspaper announcement in an English-language newspaper in Panama which says that McCain was born at the base hospital.

    The point being in this and other examples in history of parentage and eligibility being contested

    I am unaware of any examples of the parentage and eligibility of another Presidential candidate being contested. What candidates are you referring to?

  132. avatar
    Joey July 5, 2011 at 9:39 pm #

    It appears that Orly Taitz has gotten the US DIstrict Cout in Honolulu to issue a properly signed and served subpoena to the Department of Health Director Loretta Fuddy for Barack Obama’s original long form birth certificate.
    Hawaii Revised Statutes say that a court order from a court of competent jurisdiction can effecuate the release of a certified copy of the original but Orly is asking for the original.

  133. avatar
    gorefan July 5, 2011 at 9:59 pm #

    Joey: court order

    IANAL but a subpoena is not a court order, the DOH can still fight it (quash it or have it thrown out).

  134. avatar
    Rickey July 5, 2011 at 10:13 pm #

    Joey:
    It appears that Orly Taitz has gotten the US DIstrict Cout in Honolulu to issue a properly signed and served subpoena to the Department of Health Director Loretta Fuddyfor Barack Obama’s original long form birth certificate.

    I see that claim at the Pest & e-Fail, but the scan they posted is of such poor quality that I can’t tell if it is real.

    And as gorefan has pointed out, a subpoena is not a court order. I fail to see what relevance the birth certificate has to Orly’s FOIA lawsuit.

  135. avatar
    gorefan July 5, 2011 at 10:45 pm #

    Rickey: I can’t tell if it is real.

    How hard would it be for her to get a court clerk to send her a subpoena signed by the clerk?

  136. avatar
    Joy July 5, 2011 at 11:06 pm #

    At home now–finally got to watch the first of the video’s above, but the rest were “filtered out” for content … so waiting for my wife to override. No, I am not related to Lucas, and have not been able to check out his site yet either.

    Scientist: I don’t know.But i do know that joy (or Lucas) has a radical agenda- trying to overturn a legitimate election 2 1/2 years after the fact.That is so radical that words fail me…

  137. avatar
    Joy July 5, 2011 at 11:07 pm #

    I don’t understand why you wouldn’t want her to have it and get it all out in the open for good?

    gorefan: IANAL but a subpoena is not a court order, the DOH can still fight it (quash it or have it thrown out).

  138. avatar
    Slartibartfast July 5, 2011 at 11:13 pm #

    Because it’s a frivolous request that the Hawai’i DoH is not legally obliged to comply with – in fact, they are almost certainly legally obligated to refuse it.

    Joy:
    I don’t understand why you wouldn’t want her to have it and get it all out in the open for good?

  139. avatar
    Joy July 5, 2011 at 11:36 pm #

    OK–yes, I just noticed Dr Corsi actually gives credit to this site for debunking the forged McCain document. obamaconspiracy.org as a source for “where’s the birth certificate” … who would’ve thought.

    Rickey: The location of McCain’s birthplace hospital was never litigated. In one case, Hollander v. McCain, the plaintiff introduced an obviously forged birth certificate which claimed that McCain was born at a civilian hospital in Colon, Panama. Besides being an obvious forgery, the birth certificate made no sense. As the wife of a Navy officer, McCain’s mother was entitled to free medical care from American doctors at the base hospital at the Coco Solo Naval Station, where McCain’s father was stationed. Why would the McCains pay to have a baby delivered in a civilian hospital by Panamanian doctors when they could have the baby delivered by an American doctor for the low, low price of free?

    McCain’s actual birth certificate was never made public, although the McCain campaign did allow one reporter from the Washington Post to look at it. There also is a contemporaneous newspaper announcement in an English-language newspaper in Panama which says that McCain was born at the base hospital.

    The point being in this and other examples in history of parentage and eligibility being contested

    I am unaware of any examples of the parentage and eligibility of another Presidential candidate being contested. What candidates are you referring to?

  140. avatar
    Northland10 July 5, 2011 at 11:47 pm #

    Joey: It appears that Orly Taitz has gotten the US DIstrict Cout in Honolulu to issue a properly signed and served subpoena to the Department of Health Director Loretta Fuddy for Barack Obama’s original long form birth certificate.

    I’m confused on what the P&E posted. The subpoena is dated July 5, 2011 as is the certificate of service. However, the envelope that is attached is postmarked July 1, 2011. Does the US District Court Clerk in Hawaii have some odd time travel abilities or are they in the habit of post-dating subpoenas?

    The confusion is only added to the fact that the certificate of service is for the same day as the subpoena, yet it was served by certified mail. Wouldn’t it have been easier, if they were going to serve on the same day to walk it the 1-2 blocks away to the Hawaii Attorney General’s office?

    If this was properly served, I suspect there is enough in rule 45 to quash this quickly (even ignoring this has nothing to do with a SSN case).

  141. avatar
    Joy July 5, 2011 at 11:49 pm #

    @Slartibartfast, from your detailed explanations, … btw I am not sure what Obot or troll means (from someone else post), but … it is all sounding pretty reasonably explained now. i gotta tell you though, on the other sites (other side of the issue), when folks come on to try to shoot holes in the theories–they never provide evidence, sources, and substance like here, they just name call and sidestep the issues … which caused me more reason to wonder. This site was a nice surprise.
    one of the few remainders for me, after I reread the original about the Baskin Robbins job … it was in 1975, 2 years before the 1977 issued ssn–I guess he was working when he was only 14. My anecdotal wondering came from my own issued when I got a bank account around ’75, and my wives in california when it was issued to each of them in elementary school same time frame. Maybe he could work without a ssn back then?

  142. avatar
    Critical Thinker July 5, 2011 at 11:50 pm #

    Joy:
    I don’t understand why you wouldn’t want her to have it and get it all out in the open for good?

    Nothing will ever satisfy Orly (nor you I suspect) that Obama was born in HI, Conspiracy theorist do not give up their theories in the face of evidence that contracts them. They minimize or delegitimize the evidence and then demand additional evidence to disprove the same thing that the present evidence has already disproved. This is very obvious to sane people. It is not at all obvious to delusional people. Orly is not a sane person.

  143. avatar
    Sef July 6, 2011 at 12:05 am #

    Joy:
    I don’t understand why you wouldn’t want her to have it and get it all out in the open for good?

    For one thing it would reveal very private medical info to the left of the copied LFBC which is nobody’s gd business.

  144. avatar
    gorefan July 6, 2011 at 12:10 am #

    Joy: I don’t understand why you wouldn’t want her to have it and get it all out in the open for good?

    Because there is only one thing in the BC that has an impact on Presidential eligiblity, place of birth. That was shown in the COLB and reconfirmed by the LFBC to be Honolulu, Hawaii. Everything else is only of passing interest to most people.

  145. avatar
    Northland10 July 6, 2011 at 12:10 am #

    Northland10: I’m confused on what the P&E posted. The subpoena is dated July 5, 2011 as is the certificate of service. However, the envelope that is attached is postmarked July 1, 2011.

    After further checking, I realized that in this case, a clerk may sign and seal an otherwise blank subpoena. It would then be filled out by the requester and served. The state will still likely successfully move to have it quashed but at least Orly has her brief moment.

  146. avatar
    Northland10 July 6, 2011 at 12:35 am #

    Joy: I don’t understand why you wouldn’t want her to have it and get it all out in the open for good?

    And for 3 years, birthers kept asking why he wouldn’t just release the long form and get it all out in the open. He did, and we watched the goal posts move again. It has been proven many times. The only real evidence in many birther’s head is that which shows he is not eligible. Now, the only proof they will accept is one that fits their truth. They get increasingly angry because Obama will not produce the evidence they want.

    This is the odd world of these self proclaimed Constitutionalists who demand:

    1. Obama be marched out and punished for a host of crimes, for which they neglect to give examples. So much for habeas corpus and the fifth amendment (being elected President of the United States is not normally a felony).

    2. Obama should be present evidence showing his ineligibility and, thus, his guilt in the grand crime. The birthers should also be able to root around through all of Obama’s personal papers and effects. So much of amendments 4 and 5 (being elected President of the United States is not normally a crime).

    3. They want Obama marched out for treason. So much for understanding the definition of treason found in Article III (being elected President of the United States is not normally considered as levying war against the US).

    4. I imagine Amendment 6 is not beloved by the birthers given that the “blood of Jesus” trial lacked various things like an impartial jury (nor was it held in the state where the crime of being elected President of the United States occurred).

    At least they maybe fine with each state having a republican form of government, provided the state does not expect full, faith and credit of their records, or if the state aids and abets others in in committee the heinous crime of being elected President of the United States (and, gasp, being certified by Congress and sworn in by the Chief Justice).

  147. avatar
    G July 6, 2011 at 12:37 am #

    Hi Lucas.

    Yes, I had a wonderful 4th of July spend with traditional parade and grill-out with my wife’s family and my 11-yr old niece. Thanks for the info on your family and congrats on also being an uncle! You have a very nice looking family and I can see the family resemblence. No need to apologize for not naming the male relative. His desire for privacy is both understood and respected.

    Thank you also for clarifying the various “aka” name issues. Of course I’m curious to the story that goes along with why you used those previous names you did in the past and why you chose the names that you did. I’m sure that would be a good story for you to cover in one of your future blog posts. You really should collect all these and publish them someday. Hopefully it will be at a time when you’ve finally gotten past making the kinds of mistakes and bad decisions that lead to your troubles. I sincerely hope you are able to break free from your cycle someday and lead a fulfilling clean life and obtain wisdom to avoid making further bad choices. People can change and grow, Lucas. You just need to build new habits and not make excuses for when your actions cause additional troubles for you, even when those have much longer ramifications that you desire. If anything, your experiences should teach you that all people and systems can easily make mistakes, bad decisions and errors. The bad actions of those you’ve encountered and documented (such as getting your name wrong, how some of the guards and extradition folks act and treated you and other prisoners, etc.) can become a positive motivator and learning experience for you instead of just another excuse for cynicism and resentment. Consider them to be powerful motivators to want to not only not repeat the mistakes you yourself have made in the past, but just as importantly, to not act or make the mistakes that you see these other folks make. Strive to be better.

    As always, I may disagree with many of your views (particularly on Birtherism) and I deservedly will retain reservations and remain cautious to taking your accounts at face value (no offense, just something you have to understandably accept, given your past history), but I do appreciate your attempts to explain and provide civil communications and I sincerely believe you are capable of growing beyond your past and achieving a better future for yourself and your family. I think you have a lot of potential to offer the world, if you can only get past being your own worst enemy. Best wishes and good luck.

    Lucas D. Smith: Hi G,
    I hope that you had a great 4th of July!
    Thanks for the comment on the family picture. That’s my sister and her daughter. The guy in the back is a family member as well but has asked me not give out specific relation or name.

  148. avatar
    Expelliarmus July 6, 2011 at 12:52 am #

    Joy: after I reread the original about the Baskin Robbins job … it was in 1975, 2 years before the 1977 issued ssn–I guess he was working when he was only 14. My anecdotal wondering came from my own issued when I got a bank account around ’75, and my wives in california when it was issued to each of them in elementary school same time frame. Maybe he could work without a ssn back then?

    I’m not sure its’ established that he was working in 1975 — Politifact says “1975 or 1976″ – http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/apr/15/joe-scarborough/heres-scoop-obama-has-worked-ice-cream-business-am/

    Plus you are assuming that the franchise owner or manager who was hiring teenagers to dish out ice cream was complying with all legal requirements in paying wages and withholding. There are plenty of small business people who hire youngsters and pay them cash off the books, and the kids don’t really know any better so they don’t ask questions.

  149. avatar
    Slartibartfast July 6, 2011 at 1:09 am #

    Joy:
    @Slartibartfast, from your detailed explanations, … btw I am not sure what Obot or troll means (from someone else post),

    Generically, birthers are people who doubt President Obama’s eligibility, obots are people (like me) who argue that the President is eligible under the Constitution, and trolls are people who make inflammatory comments on blogs and forums to get a rise out of people (and disrupt the discussion) while refusing to substantively engage on any issue. The term is meant in the fishing sense of the word (like chumming the water) while having overtones of monsters lurking under bridges who attack passersby (at least to me). Those are my definitions, but I believe that they are reasonably close to the norm.

    but … it is all sounding pretty reasonably explained now.

    If so, you’re the first birther-curious person who’s come to that conclusion here (although a couple of birthers also bowed out after the long form was released). If you would tell us more about how you came to this issue, I’m sure many here would find it interesting.

    i gotta tell you though, on the other sites (other side of the issue), when folks come on to try to shoot holes in the theories–they never provide evidence, sources, and substance like here, they just name call and sidestep the issues

    If you’re referring to obots trolling birther sites, keep in mind that most of them are under heavy moderation. Yes, some obots merely ridicule without providing support for their opinions (I’ve done it myself from time to time when I thought it appropriate), the difference is that most of us actually can back up our arguments with evidence when we want to. Birther arguments cannot withstand logical debate, but that doesn’t mean that all anti-birther arguments are logical. In addition, the birthers count amongst their numbers many racists and people who have repeatedly smeared the legitimately elected president with vile and seditious likes – people like that deserve all of the ridicule that is heaped upon them.

    … which caused me more reason to wonder.

    Fair enough.

    This site was a nice surprise.

    It’s a pretty good one stop shop for well-researched information regarding President Obama’s eligibility. Chances are that any question you have has already been answered somewhere on this site.

    one of the few remainders for me, after I reread the original about the Baskin Robbins job … it was in 1975, 2 years before the 1977 issued ssn–I guess he was working when he was only 14.My anecdotal wondering came from my own issued when I got a bank account around ’75, and my wives in california when it was issued to each of them in elementary school same time frame.Maybe he could work without a ssn back then?

    Now you’re just sounding reasonable – that’s no fun. I think that something like that is the most likely hypothesis, but I don’t know for sure. I’ve seen enough “anomalies” raised by the birthers to be able to see the pattern, though – they point out some trivial detail, insist without any sort of investigation that it is out of the ordinary and demand that it be explained in ludicrous detail (which they never believe anyway). Their allegations invariably turn out to be baseless (like the “Connecticut social security number” meme – an accidental transposition of a ‘9’ and a ‘0’ makes President Obama’s Hawai’i zip code into a Connecticut zip code – the birthers hold this up as evidence of fraud while giving no indication what the purpose of such a fraud would be…) and lacking in any credible evidence.

    Well, it seems to me that you are neither a birther nor a troll for what it’s worth… Once again, as most of us are interested in how this issue appears to people who are not as close to it as we are, anything you’d care to share regarding how you investigated this issue or ended up at this site would be appreciated.

  150. avatar
    G July 6, 2011 at 1:24 am #

    Hi Joy,

    You’ve struck on an important thing – citations for evidence. Any site where they can’t back up their statements with source material should not be trusted.

    The closest any birther site comes to providing evidence always turns out to be either a fraudulent document or what is really a circular reference link to some other non-authoritarian person spouting the same false story. No legit, reliable source material ever comes to establish real credibility to any of their claims, only links to more birther laypeople spouting speculation.

    You will find that this site is very evidence and fact driven. Just about all of the questions you’ve asked have been sourced, with citations and discussed many times in the past.

    There are some good link compilations to give you those answers and that include those sources to support them.

    Please check out the following references and then look for your particular topic question, which has likely been addressed at one or more of these key areas:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/faq/
    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/bookmarks/fact-checking-and-debunking/the-debunkers-guide-to-obama-conspiracy-theories/#indonesia
    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/bookmarks/fact-checking-and-debunking/

    I apologize that at times any of us can become guilty of lack of patience and what devolves into name calling. That is just part of human nature during frustration and can happen anywhere, whether here or at a birther site.

    The difference here is that patience will reward you with answers and sources and you will not be “cut off” for bringing up factual evidence, like they do at birther sites. They have to do that there, as their stories are on shaky ground and can’t hold up to any actual scrutiny.

    There is nothing wrong with you having a different ideological worldview, party or simply not liking the President. The great thing about our democracy is we all have the freedom to vote and to vote for who we choose. Nobody here denies you that right or to prefer a different candidate.

    You will find that regular posters here on “this side” are not just Democrats, but also include a number of independents, conservatives and republicans. Some of the regular NON-birther posters here did NOT vote for Obama last time and are unlikely to do so next time. However, they prefer to deal with reality-based objections and find the lies and myths of Birtherism to be just as disturbing as the rest of us and are here to fight simply for factual and evidence based arguments.

    Sometimes people have the right intention, but get led astray by putting faith in those they view as “similar” in some way to them, only to find out that they are being conned. You really should look up the full history and background of WND, Farah and Corsi. They are merely con artists and cynically manipulative grifters who take advantage of those with certain conservative leanings to stoke sensationalized and often made-up fears and get people to part with their money as a result. You need to be more skeptical of sites that spend such a significant portion of their articles reminding people to push the Paypal button or buy their merchandise. You’ll notice you don’t see any of that chicanery here.

    Joy: i gotta tell you though, on the other sites (other side of the issue), when folks come on to try to shoot holes in the theories–they never provide evidence, sources, and substance like here, they just name call and sidestep the issues … which caused me more reason to wonder. This site was a nice surprise.

  151. avatar
    Rickey July 6, 2011 at 1:46 am #

    gorefan: How hard would it be for her to get a court clerk to send her a subpoena signed by the clerk?

    Possibly not hard at all. It varies from District Court to District Court. However, I would think that an attorney who is not admitted to practice in a particular District would have more trouble getting a clerk to issued a signed, blank subpoena than an attorney who has established a local reputation.

    I had a case in the Southern District of New York recently in which the clerk gave us ten signed but otherwise blank subpoenas to use for medical records. He was satisfied that we wouldn’t use them to serve a frivolous subpoena for irrelevant records. However, the clerk in Hawaii may not be familiar with Orly’s reputation.

    Regardless, as you say a subpoena is just a subpoena, and if it was properly served Hawaii DOH no doubt will move to quash it. I guess this at least is an acknowledgement by Orly that her previous subpoena wasn’t worth the paper it was written on.

  152. avatar
    Bovril July 6, 2011 at 6:01 am #

    Never mind the monir isssue that Mad Old Orly IS NOT ALLOWED TO PRACTICE LAW IN HAWAI’I, therefore the sub-poena is facially flawed as she is NOT an officer of the court.

  153. avatar
    Keith July 6, 2011 at 7:22 am #

    Slartibartfast: Maybe he could work without a ssn back then?

    Well, not legally anyway.

    I had to get my SSN in 1962 when I was 10. I was in a boys choir that appeared on national TV. Union rules said they couldn’t pay the choir, they had to pay us as individuals.

    So I got a pay check from NBC when I was 10. I then ‘voluntarily’ donated it back to the choir.

    But I also worked a few nights at a snack bar at a race track a few years later for cash in hand. No SSN was reported to the employer, no tax withheld, no return filed, even though I had a SSN at the time.

  154. avatar
    Keith July 6, 2011 at 7:24 am #

    Sorry, I messed up the attribution on the above post. The comment was Joy’s, not Slarti’s.

  155. avatar
    Reality Check July 6, 2011 at 7:25 am #

    FCRP Rule 45:

    “(3) Issued by Whom.

    The clerk must issue a subpoena, signed but otherwise in blank, to a party who requests it. That party must complete it before service. An attorney also may issue and sign a subpoena as an officer of:

    (A) a court in which the attorney is authorized to practice; or

    (B) a court for a district where a deposition is to be taken or production is to be made, if the attorney is authorized to practice in the court where the action is pending.”

    Issued is one thing. Serving and getting it executed are another. Hawaii will issue the same letter they issued last month and the ball will be back in Orly’s court. Actually, their are already so many balls in her court she has to be tripping over them by now.

  156. avatar
    Reality Check July 6, 2011 at 7:42 am #

    Also, Rule 45 under which the clerk gave Orly the blank subpoena is in the “Trial” section of FRCP. Orly is jumping ahead about 4 sections – again.

  157. avatar
    Bovril July 6, 2011 at 7:58 am #

    Oh and since the FOIA action is taking place in DC, Orly COULD request the su-poena from Hawai’i is she was entered to practice law in DC……..which she isn’t….. 8-)

  158. avatar
    Bovril July 6, 2011 at 8:00 am #

    Ooops, forgot to mention……..Since WHEN does a FOIA request for Stanley Dunns SSN have any material bearing on her insane sub-poena for the Presidents birth certificate….?

    The question is left as an exercise for the student.

  159. avatar
    Reality Check July 6, 2011 at 8:39 am #

    Actually the subpoena is for a birth certificate for someone named Barack Obama III. It appears the President has been hiding a son all these years. You just never know what Orly has up her sleeve of that Rainbow Brite dress.

  160. avatar
    roadburner July 6, 2011 at 9:18 am #

    Reality Check: Actually the subpoena is for a birth certificate for someone named Barack Obama III. It appears the President has been hiding a son all these years. You just never know what Orly has up her sleeve of that Rainbow Brite dress.

    christ in a sidecar! i just looked on her web page, and you´re right!

    that´s taking incompetent to a new level.

    joy – why would anyone give taitz the LFBC? personally i wouldn´t be suprised if she tried to eat it if she had it within arms reach, and then claim it doesn´t exist.

  161. avatar
    Bovril July 6, 2011 at 10:43 am #

    How many ways can she screw up such an apparently simple thing…..? (rhetorical)

  162. avatar
    dunstvangeet July 6, 2011 at 10:47 am #

    joy: The delay in recieving the BC is not the issue–Friday to Tuesday–the issue is after the date recieved, 8th vs 11th, that the Nordyke twins would be processed later than his … based on the “same day processing”.

    We’ve actually proved that this isn’t true. In fact, there are other independent birth certificates that were sent to the DoH on Tuesday that have later birth certificate numbers than what Obama’s is. The easiest explaination is that they either did weekly or monthly assigning of numbers. CNN did an extensive report on it. You make a lot of assumptions on saying that obviously that Obama’s birth certificate was false because of the numbering on it. None of those assumptions turned out to be true.

    These are the birth certificate numbers that we know.

    Susan Nordyke – 10637 (delivered on Friday, August 11, 1961)
    Gretchen Nordyke – 10638 (delivered on Friday, August 11, 1961)
    Barack Obama – 10641 (delivered on Tuesday, August 8, 1961)
    Stig Waidelich – 10920 (delivered on Tuesday, August 8, 1961)

    So, Barack Obama has a lower birth certificate number than what Stig Waidelich had. Stig Waidelich’s was delivered on the same day as Barack Obama’s, and before the Nordyke’s. So, this strongly suggests either a weekly or monthly assigning of numbers.

    I did become a “birther” about 6 months ago … but am open to reason.I think most of us (not all) would be less skeptical with more openness in the records.

    Openness? You keep on saying that, but I don’t think that word means what you think it means. In order to prove birth place, you use the birth certificate. That “valid Hawaii state birth certificate” was released in June of 2008, over 3 years ago. That birth certificate would prove in any court of law the place of birth. He released it over the internet so that everybody could actually view the document. Instead of going, “Well, he was born in the United States” the birthers decided to directly lie on more than a few points of Hawaiian Law. They were never interested in the truth. They were interested in opposing this President, and using any means neccessary to do it.

    Look at

    It’s the whole hidden history full of holes that causes a continuing questioning (funding for expensive schools, closed school records, SSN issued after his job at Baskin Robbins in Hawiai, etc, etc) as well as the radical political agenda that causes one to wonder.

    First off, his grandparents were not exactly poor. His grandmother was a Vice President at a Bank. His SSN was actually before his job at Baskin Robins.

    As far as his Political Agenda, not that this is a topic on this blog, but it’s far from radical. In fact, most of his most contraversial ideas came directly from the Republican Party (cap-and-trade and Obamacare to just name a few).

  163. avatar
    Rickey July 6, 2011 at 11:28 am #

    The rules for Federal Court subpoenas are here:

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/Rule45.htm

    A couple of points are worth noting.

    “If the subpoena commands the production of documents, electronically stored information, or tangible things or the inspection of premises before trial, then before it is served, a notice must be served on each party.” I wonder if Orly remembered to serve a notice on each party before she sent out the subpoena?

    But even if Orly followed the rules:

    “On timely motion, the issuing court must quash or modify a subpoena that requires disclosure of privileged or other protected matter, if no exception or waiver applies.”

    There has been no waiver and I cannot imagine that any exception applies in this case.

    As a pro se plaintiff, Orly is entitled to serve a subpoena, provided it has been properly signed by the clerk. Of course, for it be valid service she has to comply with all of the applicable rules.

    “Objections. A person commanded to produce documents or tangible things or to permit inspection may serve on the party or attorney designated in the subpoena a written objection to inspecting, copying, testing or sampling any or all of the materials or to inspecting the premises — or to producing electronically stored information in the form or forms requested. The objection must be served before the earlier of the time specified for compliance or 14 days after the subpoena is served.”

    Hawaii may choose to simply file an objection rather than making a Motion to Quash, as it is a simpler way to respond. Orly would then have to ask for a Court Order requiring compliance with the subpoena, and it is inconceivable that such an Order will be issued.

  164. avatar
    joy July 6, 2011 at 11:42 am #

    Well, I still haven’t had good enough unfiltered video access to get through the above, and I think they may be very helpful for me. I also think I need to spend more time finding answers for most of my remaining reservations on this site now that I have found it … rather than continuing to make a fool of myself.
    Oh, i didn’t purposefully try to lead you all astray with my monicker concerning gender–it was just a mistake as I started to type out my common username, and changed my mind halfway into it … and after three or four posts realized the inference … I think it had you all being nicer to me anyway.
    Someone asked about “my story” and I can’t find that post to respond to … and there is not much to tell. I gave an open disclaimer concerning my bias of political persuasion … a libertarian/conservative … and I’ve been in a job with medical issues that have left plenty of extra time on my hand. I don’t remember which headline first caught my attention to start looking, but it was probably one of the court cases. Yes, I took daily doses of wnd as a source … but honestly couldn’t find much else talking about it online. I did discount snopes and politifact as politically driven also. So … I will spend a few days doing more research around here before posting another “lazy” post. Thanks for all of your contributions and patience.

    dunstvangeet: We’ve actually proved that this isn’t true. In fact, there are other independent birth certificates that were sent to the DoH on Tuesday that have later birth certificate numbers than what Obama’s is. The easiest explaination is that they either did weekly or monthly assigning of numbers. CNN did an extensive report on it. You make a lot of assumptions on saying that obviously that Obama’s birth certificate was false because of the numbering on it. None of those assumptions turned out to be true.These are the birth certificate numbers that we know.Susan Nordyke – 10637 (delivered on Friday, August 11, 1961)Gretchen Nordyke – 10638 (delivered on Friday, August 11, 1961)Barack Obama – 10641 (delivered on Tuesday, August 8, 1961)Stig Waidelich – 10920 (delivered on Tuesday, August 8, 1961)So, Barack Obama has a lower birth certificate number than what Stig Waidelich had. Stig Waidelich’s was delivered on the same day as Barack Obama’s, and before the Nordyke’s. So, this strongly suggests either a weekly or monthly assigning of numbers.Openness? You keep on saying that, but I don’t think that word means what you think it means. In order to prove birth place, you use the birth certificate. That “valid Hawaii state birth certificate” was released in June of 2008, over 3 years ago. That birth certificate would prove in any court of law the place of birth. He released it over the internet so that everybody could actually view the document. Instead of going, “Well, he was born in the United States” the birthers decided to directly lie on more than a few points of Hawaiian Law. They were never interested in the truth. They were interested in opposing this President, and using any means neccessary to do it.Look at First off, his grandparents were not exactly poor. His grandmother was a Vice President at a Bank. His SSN was actually before his job at Baskin Robins.As far as his Political Agenda, not that this is a topic on this blog, but it’s far from radical. In fact, most of his most contraversial ideas came directly from the Republican Party (cap-and-trade and Obamacare to just name a few).

  165. avatar
    gorefan July 6, 2011 at 12:04 pm #

    joy: Well, I still haven’t had good enough unfiltered video access to get through the above,

    Here is a screen shot of Stig’s COLB from CNN’s report. Save it and open in a program like MS Paint (loaded on most computers) and then you can enlarge it.

    http://nativeborncitizen.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/img_0035-small.jpg

  166. avatar
    Slartibartfast July 6, 2011 at 12:22 pm #

    That would be me – thanks! I’m a bleeding-heart liberal, by the way [to disclose my bias], but I think you’ll find that obots can be of any ideological persuasion (on the other hand, the ranks of progressive birthers are EXTREMELY sparse…) and if you’ve learned anything here in addition to facts about President Obama’s eligibility, I hope it is that President Obama – whether you like him or not – is NOT a radical.

    I’m not surprised that WND was your gateway into the world of the “eligibility question” – the grifters like Joe Farah and Jerome Corsi are much more competent than the true believers and they know that they need publicity to keep the PayPal buttons being pushed and merchandise being sold.

    As for any further questions, I think you’ll find that even stupid questions, if respectfully asked in good faith, will be answered the same way. Good luck with your medical issues.

    joy: Someone asked about “my story”

  167. avatar
    Slartibartfast July 6, 2011 at 12:24 pm #

    I don’t know if anyone’s mentioned it here, but Foggy said he had invited the guy that made these videos to be on RC radio.

  168. avatar
    Timothy July 6, 2011 at 12:54 pm #

    So this guy’s main and oft repeated theory is that the reason the layering and copying issues can’t be the work of a forger is that no one could be stupid enough to have done such a bad job?

    He says that while that could be how the anomalies were created, it’s not a reasonable conclusion. Why, because he doesn’t want it to be?

    His analysis would be much more compelling if he stopped at presenting different ways the effects could occur without drawing conclusions that are not supported by the facts.

    How about this to explain the bad forgery: A secret told is not a secret. I.e., Obama would not have wanted to shop around for, nor work with a professional who could create a good forgery because then there would always be the chance that they could expose him. It makes more sense that he had someone close to him create the doc who had enough technical know how to do it, but not enough to do it well.

    Of course by saying that, I’m committing the same sin as Woodman; drawing a conclusion that is unsupported by the facts.

  169. avatar
    JD Reed July 6, 2011 at 1:17 pm #

    The notion that the White House wouldn’t contract a forgery job to an outsider for fear of exposure overlooks a crucial point: insiders tell tales, too. In fact, the inside tell-all book is a mainstay of modern life.

    The Hawaii DoH’s unequivocal verification of the legitimacy of the President’s birth records otherwise makes no sense, unless you contend that the DoH was in on the consprracy. But if the DoH were in on the conspiracy, why wouldn’t its staff be called on to create the forged document? They would certainly have the expertise to do a first-rate job, and there would be no reason for extra fear of exposure from this quarter – for agency employees would already be part of a criminal conspiracy. In for a dime, in for a dollar.

    This is a cockamamie theory having no credibility with sensible people.

  170. avatar
    Reality Check July 6, 2011 at 1:19 pm #

    Then there is the small matter of two Hawaiian administrations that both have seen the original birth records and have said repeatedly that the certificates are valid. How many people would you estimate would have to be in on “the secret”?

    Timothy: How about this to explain the bad forgery: A secret told is not a secret. I.e., Obama would not have wanted to shop around for, nor work with a professional who could create a good forgery because then there would always be the chance that they could expose him. It makes more sense that he had someone close to him create the doc who had enough technical know how to do it, but not enough to do it well.

  171. avatar
    Slartibartfast July 6, 2011 at 2:01 pm #

    Timothy:
    So this guy’s main and oft repeated theory is that the reason the layering and copying issues can’t be the work of a forger is that no one could be stupid enough to have done such a bad job?

    He has shown that while there is no REASON for a human forger to make the decisions that were made in the creation of the layers, all of the decisions can be easily explained by having been made by computer algorithms (which we know to have been used in the creation of the document). Thus he correctly presents it as a choice between a stupid forger and a smart machine. If you disagree, then please explain why the forger made all of those odd decisions?

    He says that while that could be how the anomalies were created, it’s not a reasonable conclusion.Why, because he doesn’t want it to be?

    ALL of the “anomalies” are easily explained as products of the action of computer algorithms. In addition, none of the so-called “experts” that have cried forgery have given any explanation at all as to why the “anomalies” they cry wolf about would have occurred in the creation of a fake (that, by the way, is standard with birthers – point out some minute detail and claim it to be proof of fraud without any further explanation). Sorry, but the fact that our expert talks like an expert (carefully saying only the things that he can back up) and your “experts” talk like they have no idea what they are talking about isn’t a problem for us (you, on the other hand…).

    His analysis would be much more compelling if he stopped at presenting different ways the effects could occur without drawing conclusions that are not supported by the facts.

    So why don’t you give us a specific example of a conclusion that you believe is not supported by the facts?

    How about this to explain the bad forgery: A secret told is not a secret.I.e., Obama would not have wanted to shop around for, nor work with a professional who could create a good forgery because then there would always be the chance that they could expose him.It makes more sense that he had someone close to him create the doc who had enough technical know how to do it, but not enough to do it well.

    We know that Hawai’i issued a document – the agency which issued that document says the White House pdf is an image of that document, Savannah Guthrie was allowed to examine and photograph that document. At what stage in the process did the forgery that you are alleging occur and for what reason?

    Of course by saying that, I’m committing the same sin as Woodman; drawing a conclusion that is unsupported by the facts.

    No, you’re presenting a (pretty absurd) hypothesis without any evidence to support it, Mr. Woodman gave evidence to support his hypotheses.

    In any case, all of this misses the point that you need to attack the chain of custody and certifications of validity of the document rather than artifacts generated when the document was scanned and converted into a pdf. The Hawai’i DoH has linked to the pdf as an image of the president’s birth certificate and they are the ultimate authority on Hawai’ian birth certificates – end of story. Face it – this issue is dead and President Obama will be on the ballot in 2012. Can you please just get over it and stop wasting time that should be used to address the many serious and critical problems facing our country right now instead of trying to incite a coup against the US Constitution?

  172. avatar
    Thrifty July 6, 2011 at 2:10 pm #

    Timothy: It makes more sense that he had someone close to him create the doc who had enough technical know how to do it, but not enough to do it well.

    It makes much MORE sense that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii, like both his birth certificates and that one Indonesian school registration said. The last doesn’t mean much, but the former two are certified authentic documents, their authenticity verified by the issuing authorities.

  173. avatar
    joy July 6, 2011 at 2:18 pm #

    Well … my work computer allowed me to watch the videos today … only after much time spent buffereing. I found it insightful and look forward to the next installment on the kerning charge.

    OK … my conspiritorial side of me coming out again … I don’t get why they did this document on the green background with pdf layering vs the high res white photocopy … except to screw with us.

    Based on what I learned here the last two days, I posted on wnd (for the first time) about the Waidelich bc debunking the whole sequencing basis … it’s been silence in response.

    Thrifty: It makes much MORE sense that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii, like both his birth certificates and that one Indonesian school registration said. The last doesn’t mean much, but the former two are certified authentic documents, their authenticity verified by the issuing authorities.

  174. avatar
    aarrgghh July 6, 2011 at 2:22 pm #

    what if spartacus had a piper cub?

  175. avatar
    Slartibartfast July 6, 2011 at 2:28 pm #

    joy:
    Well … my work computer allowed me to watch the videos today … only after much time spent buffereing.I found it insightful and look forward to the next installment on the kerning charge.

    OK … my conspiritorial side of me coming out again … I don’t get why they did this document on the green background with pdf layering vs the high res white photocopy … except to screw with us.

    That’s one of the things security paper is supposed to do – not copy right (some types of security paper show the word “COPY” when photocopied). It’s done to screw with forgers, not you.

    Based on what I learned here the last two days, I posted on wnd (for the first time) about the Waidelich bc debunking the whole sequencing basis … it’s been silence in response.

    Yeah, you get that sort of thing a lot – one of the biggest red flags regarding the brithers is their failure to substantively answer criticism of their theories… ever.

  176. avatar
    BatGuano July 6, 2011 at 2:38 pm #

    Thrifty:… like both his birth certificates and that one Indonesian school registration said..

    ….. and two contemporaneous newspaper accounts……. and a 1967 state department report….

  177. avatar
    Majority Will July 6, 2011 at 2:39 pm #

    joy: OK … my conspiritorial side of me coming out again … I don’t get why they did this document on the green background with pdf layering vs the high res white photocopy … except to screw with us.

    Who cares? Why the obsession with irrelevant minutia?

    The state of Hawaii has confirmed (multiple times) that the President was born in the United States on August 4th, 1961.

    “No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”

    Got actual, credible proof he wasn’t?

  178. avatar
    Majority Will July 6, 2011 at 2:41 pm #

    Timothy:
    So this guy’s main and oft repeated theory is that the reason the layering and copying issues can’t be the work of a forger is that no one could be stupid enough to have done such a bad job?

    He says that while that could be how the anomalies were created, it’s not a reasonable conclusion.Why, because he doesn’t want it to be?

    His analysis would be much more compelling if he stopped at presenting different ways the effects could occur without drawing conclusions that are not supported by the facts.

    How about this to explain the bad forgery: A secret told is not a secret.I.e., Obama would not have wanted to shop around for, nor work with a professional who could create a good forgery because then there would always be the chance that they could expose him.It makes more sense that he had someone close to him create the doc who had enough technical know how to do it, but not enough to do it well.

    Of course by saying that, I’m committing the same sin as Woodman; drawing a conclusion that is unsupported by the facts.

    Why would the state of Hawaii forge one of their own documents?

  179. avatar
    Thrifty July 6, 2011 at 2:54 pm #

    joy: OK … my conspiritorial side of me coming out again … I don’t get why they did this document on the green background with pdf layering vs the high res white photocopy … except to screw with us.

    Because it’s a birth certificate, they issued it on the same security paper that they do ordinary certificates of live birth. Same reason it was stamped with the state seal.

    Hawaii didn’t do anything with layering. That was done by the computer program used to turn the piece of paper into a PDF for display on the web. You need to stop getting fixated on the minutae of the PDF, and the layering, and all that jazz. Layering is a red herring.

  180. avatar
    Hawaiiborn July 6, 2011 at 3:02 pm #

    Thrifty:
    Addendum: Barack Obama’s birth was on a Friday evening.The “date accepted” is the following Tuesday.In fact, this 3 day wait is closer to a 1 day wait.As in, birth certificates aren’t processed on a weekend and they didn’t get around to it on Monday.

    This is of course speculation, which is the best we can do without speaking to the people who actually did things back in 1961, but it’s the most logical guess.

    However, I was born on Nov 8 (A Tuesday) and my birth wasn’t registered till a whole 13 days later:

    http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/6818/hawaiicolbf.jpg

    and this is almost a decade after Obama’s birth.

  181. avatar
    gorefan July 6, 2011 at 3:09 pm #

    joy: I don’t get why they did this document on the green background with pdf layering vs the high res white photocopy … except to screw with us.

    There a levels of security in BC. The green background, the raised seal, the registrar stamp are all meant to prevent someone from making a xerox copy of a BC. They are placed there by the DOH.

    The layers are not placed there by anyone. PDFs do not have layers.

    Here is a good site for an explaination.

    http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/428-After-Birth.html&comment-submitted

    Dr. Krawetz will probably answer your questions.

  182. avatar
    Majority Will July 6, 2011 at 3:20 pm #

    Thrifty: Layering is a red herring.

    And birthers are hard of herring.

  183. avatar
    joy July 6, 2011 at 3:32 pm #

    Thanks for the link … I found that more insightful than the videos above.

    @Majority Will

    I do have a herring problem–my medical downtime was for ear surgeries … ironic.

    gorefan: There a levels of security in BC. The green background, the raised seal, the registrar stamp are all meant to prevent someone from making a xerox copy of a BC. They are placed there by the DOH.The layers are not placed there by anyone. PDFs do not have layers.Here is a good site for an explaination.http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/428-After-Birth.html&comment-submittedDr. Krawetz will probably answer your questions.

  184. avatar
    Hawaiiborn July 6, 2011 at 3:33 pm #

    Hawaiiborn: However, I was born on Nov 8 (A Tuesday) and my birth wasn’t registered till a whole 13 days later:

    http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/6818/hawaiicolbf.jpg

    and this is almost a decade after Obama’s birth.

    and to throw a wrench, according to by Birth Registration Card, my birth information was filed with the Hawaii Department of Health on Nov 19 (11 days) after my birth:

    http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/395/hawaiicolbbirthregistra.jpg

  185. avatar
    Expelliarmus July 6, 2011 at 4:04 pm #

    Timothy: Obama would not have wanted to shop around for, nor work with a professional who could create a good forgery because then there would always be the chance that they could expose him.

    But he would be perfectly o.k. with posting forged Hawaiian government-issued documents on the internet for two successive Hawaiian governors, their successive political appointees, and all of the regular civil service employees at the Hawaii Dept. of Health to see? As if there is no risk of any of them — or for that matter, the attorney general of the state of Hawaii — coming forward?

    The problem with the bad forger theory isn’t that Obama might have made a mistake, it’s that Hawaii keeps acknowledging his birth in Hawaii, affirming and even linking to the documents he’s posted. So if there was a “forgery”, it would have had to have originated with the Hawaii Dept of Health. And as the Hawaii Health Dept is in possession of genuine birth certificates, stamps and seals … why would they need to “forge” anything? If they were in on some massive conspiracy to lie about Obama’s birth place, they could just as easily issue a real, but fraudulent, certificate, as to create a forgery.

  186. avatar
    Expelliarmus July 6, 2011 at 4:42 pm #

    joy: I don’t get why they did this document on the green background with pdf layering vs the high res white photocopy … except to screw with us.

    The Hawaii Dept of Health issued the certified long form birth certificate on green security paper. They created it by photocopying the real original birth certificate, which is in a bound book, onto security paper, and then putting a certification stamp on the security paper. It’s their practice to print birth certificates on security paper.

    In order to allow the public to see the long form certificate, some one on the Obama White House staff scanned a full color copy of the long form certificate to PDF, and used standard optimization software to prepare that PDF for online viewing. The optimization process is what created various artificacts. Such optimization is standard procedure for web uploading – if you have any sort of PDF software you will see that in creating a PDF you are always given the option of choosing whether you are creating a PDF for print viewing or online viewing. It has to do with bandwidth — at full resolution, without compression, an 8 x 10 image with a green pattern background would be a file that could easily be 10 megabytes in size, whereas with compression and optimization they have a document that is around 375 kb. Since you have been experiencing issues with the download and buffering of videos at your workplace, you should appreciate the problems that would be created if the White House had opted to upload a raw, full resolution, uncompressed TIFF of the image.

    The white background copies came from a photocopy that was distributed to the press BEFORE the upload of the PDF — and in that case, some White House staffer simply had the photo copy machine set to black and white and made copies of a bunch of documents. There was a press packet that included a copy of the long form certificate, a copy of the previously released short form certificate, and copies of the correspondence between Obama’s attorneys and the Hawaii Dept. of Health. The green security background isn’t there simply because it was a black & white copy.

    Somewhere along the line, one or more of the journalists who received the press packet caused copies to be made and uploaded. Those copies were re-scans of the paper photocopy they had received. The resolution of those re-scans depended on whatever practice was employed by the media outfit uploading it.. I think the high resolution jpeg that we now have and that is shown in the videos came from AP. Jpeg itself is a lossy format that involves compression, so even with a higher resolution jpeg, you don’t get the information that would be in an uncompressed TIFF, but jpeg does not optimize in the same way as PDF (no layers), so you don’t see the same artifacts of the optimization process.

    No one is trying to screw with anyone — on the contrary, everyone was doing their level best to make the document as widely available as possible.