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Herman Cain: Bi-curious?

A little too chummy with Joseph Farah

I mean “bi-curious” as in“birther” not “bi-sexual.”

According to Yahoo News, Cain has been rather non-committal on the birther question, lacking the integrity to tackle the issue head on like Republican Senator Lindsey Graham who called birthers “crazy.” Speaking about Donald Trump, Cain said:

HermanCain2"He’s not off base," Cain said then of Donald Trump’s effort to get Obama to release his birth certificate. "Just like the people who have been challenging his place of birth for the past couple of years. It’s just not an issue that I have studied enough to have a view one way or the other. … I respect people who believe that he should prove his citizenship, that he should prove that he was born in the United States of America, and that’s fine. If I were president, and someone would challenge me on that, I’d produce my birth certificate. End of discussion. . . . But I quite frankly haven’t looked at all the facts to have an opinion on that."

Pizza guy and talk show host Herman Cain is in the mainstream of modern political candidates whose primary qualification is that they are unqualified to hold the jobs they seek. A number of actors of actors, comedians and professional wrestlers come to mind.

As far as I am concerned, one thing makes Herman Cain constitutionally ineligible to be President – he writes for WorldNetDaily.

131 Responses to Herman Cain: Bi-curious?

  1. avatar
    Patrick McKinnion October 6, 2011 at 5:42 pm #

    Well, World Nut Daily was promoting Hermain Cain as a candidate has far back as 21 July 2010

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=181961

    And on Cain’s radio show on 14 March 2010, he was talking with Carl Swensson, who was touting the de Vattelist party line – which Cain said he mostly agreed with.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItRWGFmypG8

  2. avatar
    charo October 6, 2011 at 5:58 pm #

    Can someone please link to at least one article that Herman Cain wrote for World Net Daily? I can’t find anything except that he wrote over 100 articles. Also, what is his latest comment on Obama’s eligibility? Are you aware that he has the onus to prove that he is not an oreo, Black on the outside but White on the inside? (I heard him on Imus the other morning.) A birth certificate does not resolve that one, even with 100 forensic experts.

  3. avatar
    Majority Will October 6, 2011 at 6:08 pm #

    charo: Can someone please link to at least one article that Herman Cain wrote for World Net Daily?

    Doc C provided the link in the last line of the article above.

  4. avatar
    Majority Will October 6, 2011 at 6:10 pm #

    If he gets as far as picking a running mate, will his campaign be rebranded as the Co-Cain Train?

    Will we get a coupon for bread sticks with our tax refunds?

  5. avatar
    Daniel October 6, 2011 at 6:28 pm #

    Majority Will:

    Will we get a coupon for bread sticks with our tax refunds?

    AS your tax refund.

  6. avatar
    Majority Will October 6, 2011 at 6:39 pm #

    Daniel: AS your tax refund.

    Good point. Delivered in thirty months or it’s free?

  7. avatar
    charo October 6, 2011 at 7:09 pm #

    Majority Will: Will we get a coupon for bread sticks with our tax refunds?

    He should be really ashamed of his past. People with his background should never be considered anything but a joke. He has accomplished nothing. How dare he presume otherwise.

  8. avatar
    Majority Will October 6, 2011 at 7:27 pm #

    charo: He should be really ashamed of his past.People with his background should never be considered anything but a joke.He has accomplished nothing.How dare he presume otherwise.

    I’m not mocking Cain’s business success. He earned it. Good for him.

    But I will rightfully mock some of his bizarre political schemes. He should be ashamed for some of the crap he’s spewing.

    And I find nothing wrong with mocking truly crappy pizza. I tried it once.

    Once was enough. I just about spit it out. It was mostly greasy dough and burned toppings.

    Some of their slogans:

    “A pizza you can’t refuse!”, “If you don’t like anchovies, you’ll be sleeping with the fishes”, “Da goods is in da box!” and “I know your neighborhood”.

  9. avatar
    Scientist October 6, 2011 at 7:41 pm #

    Majority Will: And I find nothing wrong with mocking truly crappy pizza. I tried it once.
    Once was enough. I just about spit it out. It was mostly greasy dough and burned toppings.
    Some of their slogans:
    “A pizza you can’t refuse!”, “If you don’t like anchovies, you’ll be sleeping with the fishes”, “Da goods is in da box!” and “I know your neighborhood”.

    The pizza sucks. Words cannot describe its wretchedness. If Cain can be President, Rocco DeFazio who makes a great pizza in my neck of the woods should be Lord of the Universe.

    Plus the slogans Godfather uses are frankly rascist, playing to a cheap stereotype of Italian-Americans that has nothing to do with the good, honest, law-abiding people that 99.99% are (excepting Apuzzo and Donofrio). Would it be acceptable for a fried chicken place to use a black drug dealer or pimp as their logo and have him talk about delivering a key of smack? Or a bagel shop called Shylock’s Bagels with a picture of a fellow with a hooked nose talking about taking a pound of flesh?

    Cain runs a thoroughly shameful operation.

  10. avatar
    charo October 6, 2011 at 7:47 pm #

    Majority Will: I’m not mocking Cain’s business success. He earned it. Good for him.

    But I will rightfully mock some of his bizarre political schemes. He should be ashamed for some of the crap he’s spewing.

    And I find nothing wrong with mocking truly crappy pizza. I tried it once.

    Once was enough. I just about spit it out. It was mostly greasy dough and burned toppings.

    Some of their slogans:

    “A pizza you can’t refuse!”, “If you don’t like anchovies, you’ll be sleeping with the fishes”, “Da goods is in da box!” and “I know your neighborhood”.

    Your comment is self-explanatory.

  11. avatar
    gorefan October 6, 2011 at 7:48 pm #

    Majority Will: But I will rightfully mock some of his bizarre political schemes. He should be ashamed for some of the crap he’s spewing.

    And some of the non-piazza commercials he has been involved with and some of the positions taken by the America’s PAC which he was a spokesman for.

    http://www.nysun.com/national/republican-group-chides-democrats-with-abortion/41648/

  12. avatar
    Rickey October 6, 2011 at 8:07 pm #

    Cain’s 9-9-9 tax plan (9% flat income tax, 9% corporate tax, 9% national sales tax) is a regressive boon to the wealthy, shifts more of the tax burden to the poor and middle class, and would bring in less revenue than the current tax code.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2011/10/06/141122453/all-aboard-cain-train-man-with-9-9-9-plan-is-latest-gop-darling

  13. avatar
    Keith October 6, 2011 at 8:09 pm #

    Scientist: Would it be acceptable for a fried chicken place to use a black drug dealer or pimp as their logo and have him talk about delivering a key of smack?

    I don’t know about that, but during the last West Indies Cricket Test tour to Australia, KFC ran an advertisement implying that their chicken could bring ‘arch-enemies’ together.

    The ad had a crowd scene at a cricket match and opposing fans were brought together and their rivalry made a friendly one when one of them started handing around a big bucket of KFC. Great idea that worked fine.

    Only problem was was that the guy that brought the KFC was clearly supposed to represent a West Indies fan and was black and he was handing it around to a crowd of mostly white supposedly Australian fans. The vitriol from the (white) Political Correctness Police was unbelievable, and the anti-PC fulminators were thereby given an equal opportunity at endlessly pointless word orgies. It should be noted that the Australian West Indies community couldn’t figure out what the fuss was about.

    Australia has some pretty sensible anti-vilification laws in my opinion, and I am the first one to say that 9 times out of 10 it is easier to do things right in the first place than to risk offending even the smallest number of people. For example, it makes no sense to ask people for their “Christian Name” when 10% of your population is not Christian and don’t have “Christian Names”. But sometimes people seem to be programmed to jerk their knees right smack into their forehead at the mere hint of something on the fuzzy border between political incorrectness and innocent reality.

    There is a difference between respecting the feelings of others and tying your self up into knots so tight that you can no longer communicate.

  14. avatar
    charo October 6, 2011 at 8:14 pm #

    Further problems for Cain should it become widely known that since 2006, he has been writing for this organization: North Star Writers Group.

    http://004eeb5.netsolhost.com/hc1.htm

  15. avatar
    charo October 6, 2011 at 8:19 pm #

    Scientist: The pizza sucks.Words cannot describe its wretchedness. If Cain can be President, Rocco DeFazio who makes a great pizza in my neck of the woods should be Lord of the Universe.

    Plus the slogans Godfather uses are frankly rascist, playing to a cheap stereotype of Italian-Americans that has nothing to do with the good, honest, law-abiding people that 99.99% are (excepting Apuzzo and Donofrio).Would it be acceptable for a fried chicken place to use a black drug dealer or pimp as their logo and have him talk about delivering a key of smack?Or a bagel shop called Shylock’s Bagels with a picture of a fellow with a hooked nose talking about taking a pound of flesh?

    Cain runs a thoroughly shameful operation.

    I wonder why you are speaking about Cain presently operating Godfather’s Pizza? See http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/jun/10/herman-cain/herman-cain-godfathers-pizza-turn-around/

  16. avatar
    charo October 6, 2011 at 8:26 pm #

    Rickey:
    Cain’s 9-9-9 tax plan (9% flat income tax, 9% corporate tax, 9% national sales tax) is a regressive boon to the wealthy, shifts more of the tax burden to the poor and middle class, and would bring in less revenue than the current tax code.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2011/10/06/141122453/all-aboard-cain-train-man-with-9-9-9-plan-is-latest-gop-darling

    Rickey:
    Cain’s 9-9-9 tax plan (9% flat income tax, 9% corporate tax, 9% national sales tax) is a regressive boon to the wealthy, shifts more of the tax burden to the poor and middle class, and would bring in less revenue than the current tax code.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2011/10/06/141122453/all-aboard-cain-train-man-with-9-9-9-plan-is-latest-gop-darling

    The reason for the shift would be this:

    Currently, about 49.5 percent of all tax filers pay no income tax at all, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, a respected bipartisan committee of Congress.

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2011/sep/26/facts-about-herman-cains-9-9-9-tax-plan/

    As he gets more of a platform, he will have a chance to explain how the 49.5% will benefit. How much of that percentage are unemployed or underemployed? Would having a flat tax eventually lead to a employment or better employment? Would this eliminate enough loopholes so that the 9% the very wealthy would have to pay would eventually lead to controlling the deficit? Is this a permanent solution?

    I don’t give a darn about the pizza. I would be happy to hear more specifics on what he is proposing.

  17. avatar
    Majority Will October 6, 2011 at 8:34 pm #

    charo: Your comment is self-explanatory.

    That’s always good to know.

  18. avatar
    charo October 6, 2011 at 8:43 pm #

    Interesting analysis of Obama’s approval numbers:

    http://www.theatlanticcities.com/politics/2011/09/geography-obamas-tanking-approval-ratings/121/

  19. avatar
    Bob October 6, 2011 at 8:44 pm #

    Hey Birthers,

    Has Herman Cain released his birth certificate?

  20. avatar
    Rickey October 6, 2011 at 9:07 pm #

    charo:

    Currently, about 49.5 percent of all tax filers pay no income tax at all, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, a respected bipartisan committee of Congress.

    You realize, I hope, that most of the people who pay no income tax do so because they don’t have sufficient taxable income to require them to pay? In other words, for the most part they are poor, or retirees on fixed incomes, or people whose itemized deductions bring their taxable income below the minimum require to owe income tax,

    However, those people do pay sales taxes, excise taxes, user fees, property taxes, etc.

    Cain’s proposed 9% national sales tax would immediately increase the effective price of everything by 9%. That’s chump change to the wealthy, but devastating to those who are barely getting by. That’s why it is called a regressive tax – as a percentage of income, it hits the poor and middle class much harder than it hits the well-to-do.

  21. avatar
    charo October 6, 2011 at 9:09 pm #

    1. “Pizza guy and talk show host Herman Cain … ” (Doc C.)

    2. Cain earned a degree in mathematics from Morehouse College in 1967 and later earned a master’s degree in computer science from Purdue University, while working as a mathematician for the Department of the Navy. He then worked as a business analyst for The Coca-Cola Company.

  22. avatar
    gorefan October 6, 2011 at 9:12 pm #

    charo: I don’t give a darn about the pizza. I would be happy to hear more specifics on what he is proposing.

    Here is what Bloomberg said:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-05/cain-s-9-9-9-math-raises-questions-on-generating-enough-revenue.html

  23. avatar
    charo October 6, 2011 at 9:13 pm #

    Rickey: You realize, I hope, that most of the people who pay no income tax do so because they don’t have sufficient taxable income to require them to pay?

    Would you guess how much income tax our family pays? I laid out some of my questions for Herman Cain on the matter. I don’t believe I gave my endorsement of the plan. Also, a President has to get his plan through Congress.

  24. avatar
    charo October 6, 2011 at 9:15 pm #

    gorefan: Here is what Bloomberg said:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-05/cain-s-9-9-9-math-raises-questions-on-generating-enough-revenue.html

    I would like to hear what Herman Cain has to say.

  25. avatar
    gorefan October 6, 2011 at 9:20 pm #

    charo: Eat Crow, Doc.

    Did you see these quotes:

    “Cain actually writes a syndicated column for the North Star Writers Group that WorldNetDaily pays to publish. WorldNetDaily has branded the column as “exclusive commentary” for two years.”

    “Shortly after we corrected the story and reported that WorldNetDaily had advertised Cain’s columns as its own, the site removed the “exclusive” branding on Cain’s column.”

    Looks like WND is the source of the error.

  26. avatar
    SluggoJD October 6, 2011 at 9:22 pm #

    charo:
    Can someone please link to at least one article that Herman Cain wrote for World Net Daily?I can’t find anything except that he wrote over 100 articles.Also, what is his latest comment on Obama’s eligibility?Are you aware that he has the onus to prove that he is not an oreo, Black on the outside but White on the inside?(I heard him on Imus the other morning.)A birth certificate does not resolve that one, even with 100 forensic experts.

    I’m a white guy who finds your “oreo” comment incredibly disgusting. If this was my site, you would be banned for life.

    John Dean
    SluggoJD

  27. avatar
    gorefan October 6, 2011 at 9:23 pm #

    charo: I would like to hear what Herman Cain has to say.

    That’s the problem, they are short on specifics.

  28. avatar
    charo October 6, 2011 at 9:35 pm #

    SluggoJD: I’m a white guy who finds your “oreo” comment incredibly disgusting.If this was my site, you would be banned for life.

    John Dean
    SluggoJD

    I’m sorry that my context was not clear. That came from the Imus interview, not me, where he asked Cain about that particular insult. Cain responded magnificently. Here is an example of who is calling Cain an oreo:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IgfkP69AC0

    (near the end)

    Just google a little. You’ll find more.

  29. avatar
    charo October 6, 2011 at 9:37 pm #

    I can’t vouch for the site but this is where I found the interview that I watched live:

    http://www.mofopolitics.com/2011/10/04/don-imus-interviews-herman-cain-10411/

  30. avatar
    charo October 6, 2011 at 9:43 pm #

    gorefan: Did you see these quotes:

    “Cain actually writes a syndicated column for the North Star Writers Group that WorldNetDaily pays to publish. WorldNetDaily has branded the column as “exclusive commentary” for two years.”

    “Shortly after we corrected the story and reported that WorldNetDaily had advertised Cain’s columns as its own, the site removed the “exclusive” branding on Cain’s column.”

    Looks like WND is the source of the error.

    So when is WND to be trusted for facts? I saw that Bill Press was listed as a syndicated writer. I did a search and found that Cain was a syndicated writer for the North Star Writer’s Group. Click on Cain and you will see that he is syndicated. You will see many of his articles that are also listed on WND. (see my comment at 8:14 p.m.). I got suspicious right away that suddenly Cain was getting negative press for being a writer for WND. I did the quick research before I even saw the official correction.

  31. avatar
    charo October 6, 2011 at 10:08 pm #

    charo:
    I can’t vouch for the site but this is where I found the interview that I watched live:

    http://www.mofopolitics.com/2011/10/04/don-imus-interviews-herman-cain-10411/

    That site is pretty horrible, but I can’t find a clip anywhere else. The part I referred to starts just after the 3 minute mark.

  32. avatar
    Scientist October 6, 2011 at 10:27 pm #

    charo: I wonder why you are speaking about Cain presently operating Godfather’s Pizza?

    I am well aware that Cain is not presently involved with Godfather’s Pizza. The crimes the company committed against taste buds and the offensive ethnic stereotyping all occurred while he was there.

    You have made numerous posts about whether Obama was magna cum laude or only cum laude at Harvard Law. That is much further in the past than Cain’s tenure at Godfather’s. Also a sitting President gets to be judged on his record in office, not his university career. A candidate who has never held elective office is in a different situation.

    charo: Would you guess how much income tax our family pays? I

    That’s none of my business. We paid more in NY State income tax than federal last year. Why? Because of various credits, especially for college tuition. The US has chosen to funnel much of its social spending through the tax code. Other countries make college cheaper and don’t give tax credits. Philosophically, I would rather not mix the tax code up with education or home ownership or buying energy efficient appliances and handle those with direct subsidies if they are worthwhile. But the bottom line is much the same.

  33. avatar
    gorefan October 6, 2011 at 10:31 pm #

    charo: I did the quick research before I even saw the official correction.

    That’s good work, Charo but you probably should have explained all of that in the beginning.

  34. avatar
    charo October 6, 2011 at 10:55 pm #

    gorefan: That’s good work, Charo but you probably should have explained all of that in the beginning.

    It doesn’t really matter to most here gorefan. There is very much a double standard that exists. You have people talking about Godfather’s Pizza being run by Cain presently. You have Dr. C. calling him a pizza and talk show guy, completely disregarding his education and other accomplishments because he hates WND so much that his normal protocol was likely clouded (as in don’t rely on any information that related back to WND). You have someone wanting to ban me from the site for referring to Cain being called an oreo by others.

    I am guilty of things myself but it gets very frustrating.

  35. avatar
    charo October 6, 2011 at 11:05 pm #

    <stron

    Scientist: That’s none of my business

    Good because the question was directed at someone else.

    Scientist: buying energy efficient appliances and handle those with direct subsidies if they are worthwhile.

    Actually, we got energy efficient windows last year because it was the last year to get $1500 back (not a deduction to offset taxes). That is kind of like a subsidy. I am interested in what Cain has to offer. I am sorry that you find him to be disgusting.

  36. avatar
    charo October 6, 2011 at 11:08 pm #

    Scientist: You have made numerous posts about whether Obama was magna cum laude or only cum laude at Harvard Law.

    For some reason, my comment was cut off. No, I said that the contemporaneous evidence at the time showed that he probably wrote on to Law Review, not that his grades were in the dumpster.

  37. avatar
    Scientist October 6, 2011 at 11:33 pm #

    charo: For some reason, my comment was cut off. No, I said that the contemporaneous evidence at the time showed that he probably wrote on to Law Review, not that his grades were in the dumpster.

    First, neither cum laude nor magna cum laude are “in the dumpster”, certainly not at Harvard.

    More importantly, how is that relevant, yet Cain’s crappy pizza and ethnic slurs against Italians (in the past, yes, but the recent past) are not?

  38. avatar
    Scientist October 6, 2011 at 11:36 pm #

    charo: That is kind of like a subsidy

    No, it IS a subsidy.

    charo: I am interested in what Cain has to offer

    He’s peddling nonsense. Run it by an economist.

    charo: I am sorry that you find him to be disgusting.

    Only his pizza is disgusting.

  39. avatar
    Rickey October 6, 2011 at 11:41 pm #

    charo: Would you guess how much income tax our family pays?

    I couldn’t possibly hazard a guess. I’m not sure what relevance it has to this discussion, even if I had some idea how much you pay.

    My point, which is indisputable, is that a national sales tax of 9% is going to raise the price of everything by 9%. A $3 gallon of milk suddenly costs $3.27. A $4 gallon of gasoline suddenly costs $4.36. A $10,000 used car suddenly costs $10,900.

    That is no big deal for someone making $100,000/year but it is an enormous deal for someone making $20,000/year. For someone earning the minimum wage, it would be devastating. That is why it is called a regressive tax, because the impact is felt far more by people with modest incomes than by people with high incomes.

  40. avatar
    charo October 6, 2011 at 11:52 pm #

    Scientist: First, neither cum laude nor magna cum laude are “in the dumpster”, certainly not at Harvard.

    More importantly, how is that relevant, yet Cain’s crappy pizza and ethnic slurs against Italians (in the past, yes, but the recent past) are not?

    I didn’t think magna cum laude was relevant. Obama supporters here did. It was so important that he graded on versus wrote on. So what. Why all the hype?

    I was thinking about stereotypes in movies from the 80’s recently. I was telling my son about a funny scene from an 80’s movie (Up the Academy) when a group called The Landmines sang so terribly and the name was so appropriate. I couldn’t remember the name of the movie and when I googled it and read comments, I knew immediately that he could not see the movie. I forgot how crude it was. I didn’t remember anything but the singing group. Anyways, I had forgotten how prevalent the stereotyping was then. Up the Academy was full of it. It wasn’t until I got older and had more life experiences that I could appreciate the wrongness, for lack of a better word, of it all. I am not going to hold Herman Cain accountable for tacky commercials that I don’t remember seeing, or pizza that I never tasted.

  41. avatar
    charo October 6, 2011 at 11:59 pm #

    Rickey: I couldn’t possibly hazard a guess. I’m not sure what relevance it has to this discussion, even if I had some idea how much you pay.

    My point, which is indisputable, is that a national sales tax of 9% is going to raise the price of everything by 9%. A $3 gallon of milk suddenly costs $3.27. A $4 gallon of gasoline suddenly costs $4.36. A $10,000 used car suddenly costs $10,900.

    That is no big deal for someone making $100,000/year but it is an enormous deal for someone making $20,000/year. For someone earning the minimum wage, it would be devastating. That is why it is called a regressive tax, because the impact is felt far more by people with modest incomes than by people with high incomes.

    My point is, you act as if I would have no idea how the tax rate would affect someone making less than $100,000 a year, to use your figure. You must have made some kind of assumption about my tax bracket. If Herman Cain’s plan will allow for more job growth, then it may be better to have a flat tax rate. I am skeptical in general of flat tax plans, but I am willing to listen.

  42. avatar
    charo October 7, 2011 at 12:09 am #

    Also, the price of gas has already made food prices rise. I have kids 12 and under. I buy a lot of milk. It is expensive. Because you can’t send your kids out to play anymore (there are links to registered sex offenders in the neighborhood), you put them in organized sports. You run them around. You expend gas. You feel the pinch every day.

  43. avatar
    charo October 7, 2011 at 12:10 am #

    links to cites that have names/addresses for registered sex offenders I mean

  44. avatar
    G October 7, 2011 at 12:23 am #

    That was very interesting – thanks!

    After reviewing it, the correlation between many of the states and those approval/disapproval ratings (& their past votes) along with geographic/economic/ethnic mix factors make a lot of sense.

    The only one that has me completely scratching my head is Oregon… There is definitely some sort of unique dynamic going on there that I’m not quite aware of… there are postulates I could speculate on, but I prefer not to do that & would rather get any evidendiary clues based on any data that anyone can point me to to explain it…

    charo: Interesting analysis of Obama’s approval numbers:http://www.theatlanticcities.com/politics/2011/09/geography-obamas-tanking-approval-ratings/121/

  45. avatar
    charo October 7, 2011 at 12:31 am #

    http://www.clackamasreview.com/opinion/story_2nd.php?story_id=131422373295284600

    Oregon, of course, has long been a state that appears on early battleground lists, always to drop off the list as the election nears. We’ll see what happens in 2012.

    Back in 2008, 538’s Nate Silver noted that Oregon is unique in that it has the most conservative conservatives and the most liberal liberals of any state in the country. Which may explain the low approval rating – lots of angry conservatives, and yes, lots of cranky progressives.

    What do you think? Will Oregon come home to President Obama – as it has for every Democratic presidential candidate since 1984? Or will it be competitive all the way to the end?

    ***

    You’ll probably have to just wait and see. Obama will likely be spending time there to make sure that it follows its past tradition.

  46. avatar
    Joey October 7, 2011 at 12:35 am #

    Any poll looking at an election that is 14 months in the future is highly speculative but I like looking at the actual matchups of announced Republican candidates versus Obama.
    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/president_obama_vs_republican_candidates.html

  47. avatar
    Joey October 7, 2011 at 12:39 am #

    While the job approval rating for President Obama is at an average of minus 9 across a number of the latest polls, the job approval rating of Congress is at minus 69.
    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_obama_job_approval-1044.html
    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/congressional_job_approval-903.html

  48. avatar
    G October 7, 2011 at 12:55 am #

    Put me in the same category as you, in terms of your statement which I bolded below. Our current taxation model is definitely broken & over-cumbersome, excessively complex and riddled with loopholes. I am definitely in favor of putting all sorts of viable options – including radical changes onto the table – provided that such are seriously scrutinized and discussed for their benefits/concerns, real impacts and cost/ability to implement/collect and not turn into just a bunch of sound-bite sloganeering and political posturing and assorted quackery/gimmickery (which is sadly, all we seem to get when an honest tax reform idea makes it to any congressional committee…)

    Look, the real problem is that unless there is broader reform in both campaign finance and lobbying, it is extremely difficult to effect any positive changes or simplification in our tax & income structure. There are simply too many competing special interests that will want to maintain or carve out exceptions and loopholes for themselves.

    Any “fair” system that would work would end up requiring some sort of exemptions, credits and yes, tiering in order to realistically work and benefit the greatest amount of people while minimizing the burden. Further, any taxation system needs to generate enough income for government to function well and deliver a robust and prosperous 21st century enconomy.

    Unfortunately, there seems to be no real basis of numbers to support where Cain’s magic “9-9-9 Plan” comes from in terms of its feasibility or ability to adequately replace the existing structure. It makes for a great slogan, but that is about it.

    An even worse sham is his cringeworthy constant clamour to replace our Social Security structure with the “Chilean model”. So far he’s generally gotten away with continuing to propose this without sufficient push back, because the reference is meaningless to most people. What he’s really asking for is privatization…and no, it has not been deemed a success as he advertises it in Chile.

    Living in Ohio, I have no experience with Godfather’s Pizza, so I have no desire to ever comment on that. It may be the role he’s most famous for in the media, but it was only a short-lived stint in his diverse career background, and not even his most recent prior job.

    What he really has most recently been careerwise is a Conservative Radio Host out of Atlanta. He’s had a number of prior jobs before that.

    In regards to his oft-referred to Godfather’s Pizza chain oversight stint, it seems that the key factual point that stick out from the actual record on that is that he helped get the overall organization into better fiscal health during his tenure; however he did that by mainly closing weaker performing chains. That is a legitimate strategy in business. However, it should be fairly characterized, which is not what he is doing on the campaign trail.

    Like Romney, he overplays his business experience into trying to allude that he created jobs, when the actual business practices he enacted were the exact opposite – they resulted in numerous intentional layoffs (i.e. “job loss”) as a strategy to improving profit at the top. So neither of them used strategies to “grow jobs” as they try to falsely portray. There are alternative job growth model strategies in business that could be employed (such as turning around a poor performing chain/business and making it profitable and a growing source of employment); but these are NOT the business models that either of them practiced in their private sector careers.

    charo: My point is, you act as if I would have no idea how the tax rate would affect someone making less than $100,000 a year, to use your figure. You must have made some kind of assumption about my tax bracket. If Herman Cain’s plan will allow for more job growth, then it may be better to have a flat tax rate. I am skeptical in general of flat tax plans, but I am willing to listen.

  49. avatar
    Sean October 7, 2011 at 1:01 am #

    “And I find nothing wrong with mocking truly crappy pizza.”

    It’s hard to mess up pizza. I’ve had very little bad pizza in my life. Chuck E. Cheese and Pappa John’s come to mind.

  50. avatar
    Steve October 7, 2011 at 1:12 am #

    In New England we have Papa Gino’s. Unlike many chains, it’s very inconsistent. I’ve had great pizza from Papa Gino’s and I’ve had awful pizza from Papa Gino’s.

    According to the Godfather’s Web site, there are only 2 stores within 100 miles of me, both far enough away that it’s not worth going there to try it.

  51. avatar
    Rickey October 7, 2011 at 1:13 am #

    charo: My point is, you act as if I would have no idea how the tax rate would affect someone making less than $100,000 a year, to use your figure.You must have made some kind of assumption about my tax bracket.If Herman Cain’s plan will allow for more job growth, then it may be better to have a flat tax rate. I am skeptical in general of flat tax plans, but I am willing to listen.

    I never gave a thought to your tax bracket. I was simply pointing out that a national sales tax is regressive and therefore is inherently unfair.

    In addition, Cain’s flat tax rate is ridiculously low. The first flat tax proposal that I ever heard was from William F. Buckley, Jr. in his 1973 book “Four Reforms.” He proposed a flat tax of 15%, which makes a whole lot more sense than 9%.

  52. avatar
    G October 7, 2011 at 1:15 am #

    What you said about Oregon’s highly polarized population is spot on…and a major factor of what I was alluding to speculating about. I have heard what you’ve reported by folks that live there – that areas like Portland are extremely liberal and the rural areas are the polar opposite.

    In fact, sources that track various xenophobic & white supremicy hate groups (such as the Southern Poverty Law Center) often cite rural Oregon as one of the hotbeds and headquarters for certain organizations of that nature. (Example: the “backpack bomb” attempt at a parade over a year ago).

    The breakdown of “red vs blue” in terms of voting at a district by district level mostly mirrors rural vs urban population centers across all of the states… so that seems to be one of the biggest factors in modern politics on determining ballot allocation. The key dynamic then really comes down to population density and dispersal in many of these states. Portland’s population density has increased (over 10%) instead of decreased, per the Census, so as much as I hate to speculate on an election 14 months out, I would think it is more likely that Oregon will remain blue in 2012 than not in the end.

    I do agree with you that Obama’s campaign will have to devote a little more face time in the state than they would have otherwise, but the odds of retaining Oregon in the end still lean in his favor.

    This is similar to PA always being considered a “swing state”, which really comes down to what the turnout is in Philly & Pittsburgh. As long as those two cities show up at the ballot box in significant numbers in a Presidential election, the state is likely to remain blue.

    http://2010.census.gov/news/releases/operations/cb11-cn43.html

    charo: http://www.clackamasreview.com/opinion/story_2nd.php?story_id=131422373295284600Oregon, of course, has long been a state that appears on early battleground lists, always to drop off the list as the election nears. We’ll see what happens in 2012.Back in 2008, 538′s Nate Silver noted that Oregon is unique in that it has the most conservative conservatives and the most liberal liberals of any state in the country. Which may explain the low approval rating – lots of angry conservatives, and yes, lots of cranky progressives.What do you think? Will Oregon come home to President Obama – as it has for every Democratic presidential candidate since 1984? Or will it be competitive all the way to the end?***You’ll probably have to just wait and see. Obama will likely be spending time there to make sure that it follows its past tradition.

  53. avatar
    G October 7, 2011 at 1:18 am #

    Good points. I agree on both accounts.

    Rickey: I was simply pointing out that a national sales tax is regressive and therefore is inherently unfair.

    In addition, Cain’s flat tax rate is ridiculously low. The first flat tax proposal that I ever heard was from William F. Buckley, Jr. in his 1973 book “Four Reforms.” He proposed a flat tax of 15%, which makes a whole lot more sense than 9%.

  54. avatar
    charo October 7, 2011 at 1:19 am #

    I think that Cain attracts people with his optimism, his persona. I envision Anderson Cooper asking him something to the effect of didn’t he save jobs versus create jobs (which seems to be what happened with the pizza chain). I think what you MAY see is similar to what Candidate Bill Clinton did back in the 1992 primaries, with “I feel your pain.” Clinton did not give specifics of a plan, but he spoke in a way that captured the moment. It wasn’t what he said, but his manner, his persona. I see Herman Cain with the potential of having that same effect. People are so down right now.

  55. avatar
    Rickey October 7, 2011 at 1:22 am #

    Steve:

    According to the Godfather’s Web site, there are only 2 stores within 100 miles of me, both far enough away that it’s not worth going there to try it.

    Many of the “”stores” listed aren’t really Godfather’s restaurants, they are convenience stores which sell Godfather’s pizza, usually by the slice. There is one listed near me but it actually is the convenience store at a Hess gas station.

  56. avatar
    charo October 7, 2011 at 1:26 am #

    The consensus concerning the pizza angle is that Cain was a great motivator. He was hands on. One thing that Bush was criticized heavily for is the claim that he would not admit making a mistake. I don’t see that in Cain.

  57. avatar
    charo October 7, 2011 at 1:28 am #

    Rickey: I never gave a thought to your tax bracket. I was simply pointing out that a national sales tax is regressive and therefore is inherently unfair.

    You were speaking in a way that implied I could not possibly understand the impact.

  58. avatar
    Rickey October 7, 2011 at 1:31 am #

    charo: You were speaking in a way that implied I could not possibly understand the impact.

    If it came across that way, it was unintentional.

  59. avatar
    charo October 7, 2011 at 1:31 am #

    Rickey: If it came across that way, it was unintentional.

    Okay.

  60. avatar
    G October 7, 2011 at 1:40 am #

    Yes, another good way to look at this. The economy will definitely be a key factor to the 2012 election…but so will the whole issue of “viable replacement” for anyone unhappy with the current leadership. When you remove the factor of mere die-hard partisanship voters on both sides, it will mainly come down to those 2 key issues for the rest of the voting public.

    While the economy is Obama’s biggest challenge, conversely, his slate of opposition is his biggest argument in his favor. This really is the weakest field of GOP candidates I’ve seen in my life time (by far). The primary numbers that seem to show up in polls beating Obama are “generic Republican” and some of the Romney polls…and so far both of those usually remain within the MOE. Obviously, “generic Republican” is meaningless… so we’re left with just Romeny so far showing as potentially “competitive” against him.

    Really, this far out, there is so much that can change in these numbers and we won’t have meaningful numbers until an official GOP candidate is chosen and the two of them have some head-to-head match-ups. Romney is about as weak a forerunner that the GOP can chose – much more of an actual flip-flopper and also much less “inspiring” than John Kerry was for the Democrats in 2004. Based on his performance over the past 5 years and all trend indications, it is more likely that *IF* Romney ends up pulling off the GOP nomination that his polling will turn out to be a paper tiger & trend downward instead of up.

    He really seems to have a ceiling of lukewarm support out there…and in terms of what I hear from those that would consider him or are currently supporting him…it pretty much comes down to a hold-their-nose unenthusiastic opinion of him that he merely seems the “most” reasonable or prepared candidate of the options available. That is hardly an endorsement…it is pretty much the backhanded version of the “thinnest kid at fat camp”.

    With all his blatently obvious flip-flops, contradictory statements, inability to connect and milquetoast delivery, his approval/disapproval numbers are likely to trend against him if it becomes a two man race and the full force of prepared opposition attacks on him really kick in.

    Joey: Any poll looking at an election that is 14 months in the future is highly speculative but I like looking at the actual matchups of announced Republican candidates versus Obama.http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/president_obama_vs_republican_candidates.html

    That is another key part of the dynamic here – and one that can not be overstated at this point. Obama’s numbers have continued to trend down along with the economic quagmire… but in comparison, everyone else responsible in our government has been trending downward at an even more dramatic rate. His numbers are definitely not good…but in comparison to all the rest, he’s still viewed more positively.

    Joey: While the job approval rating for President Obama is at an average of minus 9 across a number of the latest polls, the job approval rating of Congress is at minus 69.
    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_obama_job_approval-1044.html
    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/congressional_job_approval-903.html

  61. avatar
    Obsolete October 7, 2011 at 1:43 am #

    Charo: “I think that Cain attracts people with his optimism, his persona.”
    ” I see Herman Cain with the potential of having that same effect. People are so down right now.”

    You are delusional. Do you think telling people who aren’t rich and don’t have a job that it is “their own fault” will help people who are already feeling down?
    If he even comes close to sniffing the nomination (he won’t- Republicans will not vote for a black man) the Dems will run his own words 24/7.

  62. avatar
    G October 7, 2011 at 1:49 am #

    Cain definitely has great showmanship, energy and sound-bites, including the ability to issue memorable quips and zingers that will garnish attention and press.

    Where I disagree with the comparison to Clinton, (who I do agree also was a master of many of those skills) is in terms of depth of vision and the ability to add sensible flesh and detail to his soundbites. So far, this is an area where Cain has consistently fallen down and disappointed.

    Clinton on the other hand, had quite a demonstrable depth of knowledge when challenged and could just as easily transition from the simple sound-bite to full-on wonkish detail that generally held up well to scrutiny.

    charo: I think that Cain attracts people with his optimism, his persona. I envision Anderson Cooper asking him something to the effect of didn’t he save jobs versus create jobs (which seems to be what happened with the pizza chain). I think what you MAY see is similar to what Candidate Bill Clinton did back in the 1992 primaries, with “I feel your pain.” Clinton did not give specifics of a plan, but he spoke in a way that captured the moment. It wasn’t what he said, but his manner, his persona. I see Herman Cain with the potential of having that same effect. People are so down right now.

  63. avatar
    G October 7, 2011 at 2:07 am #

    I understand the factors at play, but I’m not ruling anyone out in this current GOP Primary dynamic, where so much is really still unsettled, so I definitely don’t rule out Cain at all and am not really surprised that he’s surged back to frontrunner status.

    The only thing that seems clear is that the long-assumed forerunner, Romney, is weaker in the big picture than I would have thought amongst this field. His polling seems to have a clear ceiling and the constant ups & downs of the latest “flavor of the month” seem to be more about the search for “anything but Romney” for the Conservative base than anything else. The influx changes in the Primary calendar schedule as well as the ability to fundraise will also play factors for the other candidates. As much as the media always wants to focus on a two-way battle in any race and ignore the rest, I remain unconvinced that we’re anywhere near this point yet and not so sure when it will be down to just two main contenders. It will be interesting to see how the next debate on 10/11 impacts the dynamic….and how subsequent ones continue to impact it further after that.

    The Conservative base candidate is unclear…and there could remain several candidates in contention for that role to be pitted against Romney well into the actual Primary season. If Romney’s ceiling of support continues to be an issue (which seems likely), there is definitely room for at least two (and perhaps more) alternatives to him to garnish enough support to stay in contention and even hold on to gain viable Primary wins or delegates.

    Obsolete: If he even comes close to sniffing the nomination (he won’t- Republicans will not vote for a black man) the Dems will run his own words 24/7.

  64. avatar
    Expelliarmus October 7, 2011 at 3:04 am #

    G: Romney is about as weak a forerunner that the GOP can chose –

    Romney is the GOP version of`Dukakis (in more ways than one).

  65. avatar
    Bovril October 7, 2011 at 6:16 am #

    An interesting piece to add in to the GOP mix are the Palinista’s, not EX-Palinista’s I hasten to add……. 8-)

    If you wander by any of the boards they infest, Conservatives4Palin is a prime one, the sheer delusional vituperative rage pointed at the “GOP Establishment” “who done her wrong” is both entertaining and very worrying for the GOP.

    These people define the “fan” in “fanatic” and are a significant number of the hard right of the GOP. The mixture of pouting that their idol is not in the race. delusion that she will somehow miraculously return from the wilderness and hate that is greater for the GOP than Obama will lead to a ….IMHO

    Splintering of those of WILL vote
    Vindictive primary voting
    Protest abstinence in the Presidential vote
    Refusal to participate in GOP fund raising and support

    Just read the comments, these are very unhappy people…..couldn’t happen to a better party, as you sow, so shall you reap

  66. avatar
    Majority Will October 7, 2011 at 6:43 am #

    charo: I am not going to hold Herman Cain accountable for tacky commercials that I don’t remember seeing, or pizza that I never tasted.

    Super terrific, charo!!!! :-) Then how about holding Cain accountable for the following list below?

    More of your ever so clever sarcasm is HIGHLY anticipated and I do greatly hope it’s self-explanatory and at least patronizing enough to satisfy the lesser minds you must constantly suffer. I must admit that you are, without hyperbole, the VERY BEST concern troll of this discussion thread!! Kudos!!

    And pretty, pretty please let me know where you plan to put the goalposts as simple minds get easily confused. Thanks in advance.

    Top 10 Things Herman Cain Doesn’t Want You To Know About Him

    (excerpted list – cites and details for each at link)

    (1) PLEDGED THAT HE “WILL NOT” APPOINT MUSLIMS IN HIS ADMINISTRATION

    (2) TOLD THINKPROGRESS, “I DON’T THINK THE CURRENT MINIMUM WAGE IS NECESSARY”

    (3) CONFUSED BY BASIC CONCEPT OF ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN PEACE PROCESS

    (4) IMMIGRATION PLAN INVOLVES A “GREAT WALL OF CHINA” AND A “MOAT [WITH] ALLIGATORS”

    (5) BELIEVES “WE ALREADY RECOGNIZE” THE GOVERNMENT OF TAIWAN

    (6) WANTS TO PUT DIRTY ENERGY CEOS IN CHARGE OF EPA REGULATIONS

    (7) BELIEVES IRAQ SHOULD PAY U.S. BACK FOR INVADING THEIR COUNTRY

    (8) TRIED TO HIDE HIS GAY TREASURER

    (9) SAYS HE WOULD SUPPORT A NATIONAL PHOTO ID LAW

    (10) BELIEVES THAT AMERICANS HAVE THE RIGHT TO BAN MOSQUES

    http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/10/06/334170/herman-cain-top-10/

    Now I know why Palin decided not to run.

    Cain must have stolen all of her brilliant ideas.

  67. avatar
    Scientist October 7, 2011 at 7:49 am #

    I’m just wondering when Mr Cain will release:

    1. A real birth certificate (not a computer file)
    2. Kindergarten records
    3. College records
    4. Passport records
    5. His SSN, including the application and a cogent explanation as to why he has the number he does
    6. Property tax records on all houses he has ever owned
    7. Every I-9 he has ever filled out
    8. Complete medical records, including DNA samples
    9. Irrefutable proof that he always been faithful to his wife.

    What is he hiding?

  68. avatar
    Majority Will October 7, 2011 at 7:58 am #

    Scientist:
    I’m just wondering when Mr Cain will release:

    1. A real birth certificate (not a computer file)
    2. Kindergarten records
    3. College records
    4. Passport records
    5. His SSN, including the application and a cogent explanation as to why he has the number he does
    6. Property tax records on all houses he has ever owned
    7. Every I-9 he has ever filled out
    8. Complete medical records, including DNA samples
    9. Irrefutable proof that he always been faithful to his wife.

    What is he hiding?

    Why haven’t we heard from his college friends, teachers and ex-girlfriends?

    Is Cain spending millions to keep his past concealed?

    /snark

  69. avatar
    The Magic M October 7, 2011 at 8:03 am #

    And no expert has come forward to declare Cain’s BC legit. Not one. I wonder why that is.

    Scientist: I’m just wondering when Mr Cain will release

    Don’t forget all these are only required for blacks who actually have a chance of winning the elections.

  70. avatar
    charo October 7, 2011 at 9:56 am #

    Majority Will: Cain must have stolen all of her brilliant ideas.

    Like you steal yours from think progress? You asked for sarcasm you got it.

  71. avatar
    Judge Mental October 7, 2011 at 10:07 am #

    Bookies do not allow sentiment or personal political views to enter into their calculations and they are not in the habit of throwing their money away. They are only very rarely far off the mark.

    Today the following odds are available from various online bookmakers…

    1. For who will be the Republican candidate in 2012

    Romney 4/6 (1.67)
    Perry 3/1 (4.00)
    Cain 12/1 (13.00)

    2. For who will be lected President

    Obama 4/5 (1.80)
    Romney 2/1 (3.00)
    Perry 7/1 (8.00)
    Paul 25/1 (26.00)
    Cain 28/1 (29.00)

    Obviously not too many of those currently being so fulsome in praise of Cain are putting their money where their mouth is.

    Though it can change in the months to come, the verdict of the bookies and the money at the moment is that Romney will be the Rep candidate and that Obama will be re-elected….and it’s not even close.

    Anyone suggesting that Cain has anything other than a very longshot outside chance is daydreaming.

  72. avatar
    Majority Will October 7, 2011 at 11:09 am #

    charo: Like you steal yours from think progress?You asked for sarcasm you got it.

    Nice goalpost moving! Bravo!! There’s that entertaining concern troll with all of the hip, new dance moves!

    And I’d much rather be accused of stealing ideas from thinkprogress.org than http://www.mofopolitics.com.

    Did you know that hypocritical is after hypothetical in the dictionary?

    Of course you did.

  73. avatar
    Majority Will October 7, 2011 at 11:11 am #

    “Did you know that hypocritical is after hypothetical in the dictionary?”

    Make that “before”. I couldn’t wait for charo to correct me and continue to avoid the issues.

  74. avatar
    G October 7, 2011 at 12:38 pm #

    Yeah, if that is the outcome, then no one should be terribly surprised. However, a lot can change and be upended in the course of a year. This time in the last cycle, the odds on favorites were Clinton & Guliani.

    The key point I’m trying to make is that no one should become overconfident at this stage in the game of the outcome. Any supporters of whichever candidate need to do what they can to contest hard for their desired candidate in order to get them elected.

    The Tea Party wing of the GOP (as well as the rest of the red-meat masses of their base) are truly a stronger dynamic in play this cycle than in the past. So far, they have been pretty much clamoring for “anything but” Romney. Romney’s main support is a good portion of the establishment and moneyed wing, which has always controlled in the past. If Romney doesn’t win…or even has to slog through a long Primary battle, it will indicate that the establishment wing no longer has control of their masses and can’t just make them “fall in line” anymore. That is the dynamic that is fascinating to watch play out.

    Polls are only so useful. Other important factors in an election are campaign money and staff. Those are areas are where Romney has a significant and overwhelming advantantage over all of his competition. In addition to a large personal wealth coffer from which to draw from, he’s got a fair number of traditional big money contributors on board, including the backing of Karl Rove and several of his SuperPACs. Plus, Romney has the experience of running a prior national campaign and debating…and it shows. He’s pretty much been doing nothing but preparing or running for the past 5 years straight. So he is definitely the “defacto” lead for that position.

    That being said, with such advantages, it becomes even more starkly stunning to see just how low his ceiling of support has been through this entire cycle so far. The key will be to see if that can actually change, now that the GOP field appears to have finally finalized. There have been a good number of traditional GOP money sources that have held out and stayed on the sidelines so far. As the hold outs start to come into play and put their money on the table…that will be a good indicator of what the true dynamic will be. If they end up coming out for strong for Romney, then the outcome becomes even more certain for him. If they break or split towards other candidates or even sit on the sidelines…then the dynamic becomes a lot more open to other possibilities and a longer Primary battle. A lot seems to be riding on the next debate (10/11/11) and we may start to see that hold out money start to trickle in after the dust has settled from that. At this point, quite a few of the lesser contenders could still get back in the race with a good performance. A really bad or non-existent performance could also spell the end of the road for those struggling to stay relevant and who’ve pretty much ran out of money and run up debt.

    The money & staff factor will become much more important in the fourth quarter as the Primaries will take place immediately after. With the current calendar changes, a solid ground game and advertising budget will be necessary to have in place by December for Iowa.

    That is one of the biggest dynamics that Huckabee struggled with during his campaign – he build support but was really limited by the cash and staff he had on hand to truly compete in the long haul. Cain currently has regained some momentum, but he still seems to have a small campaign staff and budget – which he will need to quickly ramp up on both if he is to attempt to seriously compete and hold on beyond just a few early states. That will be his greatest real hurdle to overcome, so he’d better hope that the contribution coffers start to open up for him in October or else he’s left without a competitive ground game.

    Bachmann is in even worse trouble. The reports of her campaign debt and financing looks even grimmer at this point and she’s had a lot of staff turnover. If she can’t recover this month, then she could be the next to officially fold. Many lesser candidates can avoid dropping out a bit longer simply by running on a shoestring budget and accumulating less debt obligations – but they marginalize themselves in the process by not being able to build a sufficient ground game and ad campaign, which is necessary to broaden their message and support. You really have to pay to play and compete in politics at this level and while money can’t guarantee a win…it surely is necessary in order stay both visible and viable. Accumulating campaign debt is the quickest killer to a campaign. This is really what caused Pawlenty to drop out after the IA straw poll and what will likely force Bachmann out next if she doesn’t stage a comeback at the next debate.

    As this post has gone on long enough, I’ll put together a follow-up based on these topics of consideration, with a rundown of how I see the GOP field and their chances to make an impact.

    Judge Mental: Though it can change in the months to come, the verdict of the bookies and the money at the moment is that Romney will be the Rep candidate and that Obama will be re-elected….and it’s not even close.
    Anyone suggesting that Cain has anything other than a very longshot outside chance is daydreaming.

  75. avatar
    Jo October 7, 2011 at 1:54 pm #

    For all the talk of a national sales tax, you added the 9% to various items. Add another 8-9% for the State Sales taxes. Not to mention the additional sales taxes for some municpalities and counties.

    I worked in hospitality for over a decade and I know some of those taxes are in the 10-18% range. Imagine adding another 9% onto a $50 base rate.

    Flat taxes do not work. But the tax code definitely needs to be simplified.

  76. avatar
    Rickey October 7, 2011 at 1:55 pm #

    G:
    Yeah, if that is the outcome, then no one should be terribly surprised.However, a lot can change and be upended in the course of a year.This time in the last cycle, the odds on favorites were Clinton & Guliani.

    And at this point in their first terms, Reagan and Clinton’s approval ratings were 45% and 46%, respectively. Both went on to win re-election by large margins.

    Conversely, George H.W. Bush’s approval rating at this point in his first term was 65%, and we know what happened to his re-election bid.

    It is impossible to predict what Obama’s approval rating will be year from now. Looking at past Presidents:

    Reagan went from 45% in October 1983 to 54% in October 1984

    Clinton went from 46% in October 1995 to 58% in October 1996

    George H.W. Bush went from 65% in October 1991 to 33% in October 1992.

    George W. Bush went from 55% in October 2003 to 50% in October 2004.

    And nobody had a yo-yo ride like Jimmy Carter. He went from 29% in October 1979 to 52% in March 1980 to 37% in September 1980.

  77. avatar
    G October 7, 2011 at 2:20 pm #

    Here’s my quick rundown of the rest of the actual field, from where they stand today vs the default defacto lead candidate of ROMNEY:

    PERRY – CONTENDER: bad debate performances & statements have hurt him, but he comes out of Q3 with a strong enough money position & staff position that he could easily stay in the race long enough to compete in the early primaries, even with further stumbles. The bar has been lowered for his performance in the next debate so that he only needs to not hurt himself further to remain in the race. If that performance in any way is viewed as a comeback or an improvement, then he will regain some momentum and stay viable. Regardless, unless he simply gives up or causes enough gaffes that cause his existing staff to flee him, he can hold out long enough to compete in at least Iowa.

    CAIN – CONTENDER: currently has some momentum. An ok or even mildly weak debate performance will keep him viable and strong debate performance can give him an additional bump. A bad performance and his current bubble will burst again. How Perry performs will almost be as important to Cain’s campaign as it will be Perry’s, as they are both currently contending for the “Conservative/Tea base” voters. Regardless of outcome, Cain’s biggest challenge is to turn support into dollars and ramp up his campaign organization, especially in the early Primary states. If he can get boots on the ground, he can remain a contender for that state. Only needs a decent showing in IA to remain viable after that and would need to have even more solid performances in SC and FL to stay viable in the races beyond that point.

    PAUL – PLAYER: Has a strong base-support following that are good at both showing up to events & polls as well as contributing money. Has a huge cash reserve and runs a lean campaign. He will be a factor in the race regardless and will likely stay in it for an extended period, regardless. One of his biggest challenges is also “ceiling of support” (similar to Romney)…although his ceiling number is less certain this cycle, as his libertarian views and anti-war sentiments have a stronger following in the current GOP dynamic than in the past. If other contenders for Tea Party support remain weak, he could benefit. His biggest true challenge is that the establishment & the media go out of there way to marginalize & ignore him at every opportunity. He needs to get more aggressive in spending and getting his own campaign ads and message out there to a broader public if he wants to seriously compete this time. The potential is actually there for him to become a contender or at least a spoiler in this Primary cycle.

    NEWT – FACTOR. The fact that Newt has gained some traction in the polls after his complete campaign staff collapse and “extended book tour” campaign says more about the “anti-Romney” sentiment in play in the race than anything else. His latest “Contract” has nothing new to offer and barely made a splash. His debate performances so far consist of mainly being caustic and lashing out at Obama and trying to stop the other candidates from attacking each other (a futile goal in a contested campaign). He would need significant dollars to flow into his campaign in order AND then to actually spend it on boots on the ground staff in early states in order to move back into contention and he only has the next 2 months to really make that effort. His ego and desire to remain relevant is likely to keep him in the race for the early primaries as long as polls show him with better than a few percent…as he can actually hold out longer in his current shoe-string mode than an actual ramp up. The problem for Newt is that he can’t see beyond his own ego and that all his staying in the race does is make him more likely to be a SPOILER that doesn’t give him any victories, but keeps the Primaries contested for an extended period of time.

    BACHMANN – LONG SHOT: Her only hope is to regain appeal among the Tea-Party / Conservative base and really needs a solid performance at the next debate to remain viable. Reported campaign debt issues and staffing problems make her the most likely to have to bow out next, if she doesn’t turn something around in October.

    SANTORUM – EXTREME LONG SHOT: He’s only stayed in this long out of sheer will and ego. He’s definitely been working hard in the early states (particularly Iowa), but has little to show for it. He’s run a fairly shoe-string campaign, so he can stay in long enough to compete in the Iowa Primaries off of sheer determination alone, despite how low he is polling. A good likelihood that he will drop out after Iowa, unless he gets at least 5% there…which could be just enough for him to decide to eek it out longer, hoping for better in SC. A stronger showing than that would be a surprise that could lift his fortunes and garnish press. He’s at best, as SPOILER for Iowa (and possibly SC) at this point for the other “anti-Romney” contenders and unless things change, a non-factor. Romney benefits as long as Santorum remains in the race.

    GARY JOHNSON -LONG SHOT: He has succeeded in making it into 2 debates (the 1st & the most recent) and his dog poop quip was the most memorable of the last debate, which has helped garnish him some additional media attention. He also has a serious record as a former governor…so if he can remain visible enough to enter further debates, he still has a chance to continue to raise his profile and become a factor, if not a full competitor. The key question is who he really is more of a spoiler for – Romney or Ron Paul (and yes, even Huntsman) and where his “support” would go, once he is out of the race. He isn’t pulling support from the Conservative wing of the Tea Party and there are indications that he’s actually pulling in new libertarian and moderate votes into the Primaries that might not vote otherwise. He is most likely to endorse Paul based on some of his prior statements, so Paul will likely retain some of his voters, but the rest could simply decide to not vote. Likely to stay in play through at least NH. Peformance there will determine if he remains in after that.

    JON HUNTSMAN – SPOILER. The sane/moderate alternative to Romney. Obviously, not his cycle to win. Has enough private $$ and media love to keep on squeaking by and remain visible in debates through NH, which is where he’s been concentrating his efforts. If he has an even decent showing there, could hang on through FL and be a factor even in NV and MI. His main role will be as a SPOILER for Romney in the early contests as long as he hangs in. It is possible he could perform well enough in NH alone to cost Romney the victory there…and when combined with Paul & Johnson(& possibly Karger) can really hurt Romney’s percentages.

    FRED KARGER – SPOILER. Despite getting polling numbers similar to Johnson or Huntsman, has been so far shut out of all debates and thus unable to raise his profile further. However he has been dedicating a lot of time in NH and has always had an anti-Romney agenda. Even if he competes in just that one state and never makes it to broader visibility on the national stage, he stands a chance at retaining a few percent pull in that state to be just one more chink in Romney’s must-win NH. Unsure if he’ll continue past NH, unless he succeeds in not only getting 2% or better there and if Romney’s assumed victory in that state can be thwarted. If that happens, he might be motivated to stay in to try to be a similar thorn in Romney’s side in later “Romney favored states”.

    BUDDY ROEMER – LONGEST CREDIBLE LONG SHOT. Has a background and a message that should garnish him greater attention in this broken government / bad economy climate…but the self-imposed $150 campaign contribution limit per supporter is just too much of an inhibiting factor to him being able to afford broader visibility or staffing. He’s getting a little bit more media attention lately and reports of those few who hear him speak directly come back positive, but unless he can manage to get into an upcoming debate, his profile is too low to get enough state-wide or nation wide attention to be a factor. If he ends up with more than 1% in IA or NH, that would be significant news. Otherwise, he’s not even a blip impacting the outcome, regardless of whether he stays in or drops out.

    NO CHANCE – NO FACTOR WHATSOEVER: Andy Martin, Jimmy McMillan, Tom Miller, Vern Wuensche. Of those, only McMillan might even garnish a late night comedy mention, but that’s about it.

    G: As this post has gone on long enough, I’ll put together a follow-up based on these topics of consideration, with a rundown of how I see the GOP field and their chances to make an impact.

  78. avatar
    gorefan October 7, 2011 at 2:23 pm #

    Here is Anderson Cooper on some of Cain’s statements

    http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2011/10/07/ac-herman-cain-controversy.cnn

    What is interesting is his take on Planned Parenthood compare what he said in March, 2011 with statements from America’s PAC (he was a spokesman) in 2004.

    “”Black babies are terminated at triple the rate of white babies,” a female announcer in one of the ads says, as rain, thunder, and a crying infant are heard in the background. “The Democratic Party supports these abortion laws that are decimating our people, but the individual’s right to life is protected in the Republican platform. Democrats say they want our vote.Why don’t they want our lives?”” America’s PAC radio commercial, 2004

    http://www.nysun.com/national/republican-group-chides-democrats-with-abortion/41648/

  79. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 7, 2011 at 2:24 pm #

    I’ve found the the best pizza at independent restaurants. The House of Pizza is nearby and another local chain is Real Pizza. When choosing a place to live, one criteria is pizza within walking distance.

    Sean: It’s hard to mess up pizza. I’ve had very little bad pizza in my life. Chuck E. Cheese and Pappa John’s come to mind.

  80. avatar
    G October 7, 2011 at 2:52 pm #

    Excellent coverage by AC as usual.

    The key thing that must be remembered here is that we are in GOP Primary season, not the general election. Much of the GOP base is infected with many of the same false & crazy beliefs as we hear stated by these candidates. Therefore no amount of crazy talk and fact checking on it is necessarily going to rule out a GOP candidate during their own Primaries in this current anti-intellectual, faith and emotion-based environment. One or several of the damaged candidates will simply remain viable for quite some time, merely because they are an alternative to Romney for the sizeable red meat portions of the GOP base.

    Of course, that all changes once we get to a general election…where you have more than just the hard core anti-Obama partisans voting. The crazy talk and fact checking will have much more of a real impact against them then. That includes Romney and his bizarre and limp straddling and twisting on statements. That is why the entire GOP field is extremely weak. Only the extreme and pervasive angst over a broken economy and excessively disfunctional Washington keeps the GOP viable as a mere emotionally reactionary choice for 2012.

    gorefan: Here is Anderson Cooper on some of Cain’s statementshttp://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2011/10/07/ac-herman-cain-controversy.cnnWhat is interesting is his take on Planned Parenthood compare what he said in March, 2011 with statements from America’s PAC (he was a spokesman) in 2004.“”Black babies are terminated at triple the rate of white babies,” a female announcer in one of the ads says, as rain, thunder, and a crying infant are heard in the background. “The Democratic Party supports these abortion laws that are decimating our people, but the individual’s right to life is protected in the Republican platform. Democrats say they want our vote.Why don’t they want our lives?”” America’s PAC radio commercial, 2004http://www.nysun.com/national/republican-group-chides-democrats-with-abortion/41648/

  81. avatar
    Sef October 7, 2011 at 2:58 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I’ve found the the best pizza at independent restaurants. The House of Pizza is nearby and another local chain is Real Pizza. When choosing a place to live, one criteria is pizza within walking distance.

    Enter Shameless Plug Mode

    The next time you are in New Haven you must go to Frank Pepe’s

    Exit Shameless Plug Mode

  82. avatar
    Rickey October 7, 2011 at 3:29 pm #

    G:
    Here’s my quick rundown of the rest of the actual field, from where they stand today vs the default defacto lead candidate of ROMNEY:

    Excellent analysis. My only quibble is that I’m not yet convinced that Cain is a real contender. He is doing much better than expected in the polls, but will the Tea Partiers really vote for him when push comes to shove? That remains to be seen.

  83. avatar
    G October 7, 2011 at 5:01 pm #

    Yes, it definitely remains to be seen. That very same viability issue holds true for most of the GOP field. For the GOP voters that don’t want to settle for Romney, they’ve got to choose someone from the rest of the field to vote…so no matter how imperfect or damaged those other options are, someone has to benefit.

    That is the thing about a weak field with an undesirable frontrunner – various weaknesses or flaws in other candidates are less likely to take them out of the running for the mere fact that a large number of folks seem desperate for any other option to chose.

    I have no stake in this, as I have already decided not to vote in the GOP primary next Spring, so I’m not rooting for Romney or Cain or Perry or Paul or any of the others in the campaign, but I am closely watching the race and dynamics play out, which come across between fascinatingly entertaining and depressingly frightening.

    Cain still has a shot at this point and he can just as seriously become a viable Conservative candidate that can even win the GOP nomination as he can flame out and become a minor footnote to history.

    The blunders & weaknesses of Perry & Bachmann and the lame fakeness of Romney have really opened another window of opportunity for him here.

    He may say what seems like crazy things to us, but they are the same things that many of the conservative base themselves say and believe right now too. Religion-wise, he *is* “one of them”…so he *can* get enough support from that base, if he can simply maintain and sustain his momentum and doesn’t get overshadowed by those competing for that same segment of the GOP voting population.

    For Cain, his actual voting block competition is not Romney. Right now, his competition comes down to: Perry, Bachmann, Gingrich, Santorum. Those are the primary four he’s really fighting against and at this stage, he really only needs to remain in the top 2 of those to stay as a “contender” at this stage. To some lesser extent, he might have some cross-over appeal to the voting blocks currently favoring Paul and Johnson…but really those are slightly different enough “Tea” factions that he’s likely to only get them on his side if either those 2 dropped out or somehow Cain developed a sustained and commanding lead over Romney that convinced the Paul/Johnson supporters to drop them for him.

    But he can ONLY transition to serious contender if he can turn the attention he’s getting into campaign dollars and sufficient staff “boots on the ground” in the places that matter. He’s really only got these next 2 months to make that happen, otherwise he’s not really a viable campaigner, no matter what his media appearances or polling shows.

    Another factor that will soon have some play (to a lessor extent) is public endorsements. If he gets just one “prominent” endorsement, that can be a buffer to sustain him for awhile, even if Perry or someone else becomes ascendant again. However, if a slew of prominent “conservative” endorsements start coming out and they ALL go one way and to some other candidate…then Cain will drop to Santorum percentage territory and cease to be much of a factor.

    Either way, the dynamics in play right now make October a more fluid and interesting time that Oct 2007 was. The next upcoming debate could be a bigger deal to the whole field than these things usually are at this early stage. It either becomes a “game changer” and sets up a whole new dynamic cycle…or leaves things just as stalled and unsettled as they currently are.

    Either way, that puts a huge impact on whether donations and endorsements start flowing out and who they flow out too…or if they continue to be held back. For those that don’t have huge cash reserves or are accululating debt, these next 2 months are make or break for them to change that…or it really becomes too late.

    To make a sound-byte worthy of Cain’s style, “he’s got to show that he can actually campaign and not just entertain”.

    Rickey: Excellent analysis. My only quibble is that I’m not yet convinced that Cain is a real contender. He is doing much better than expected in the polls, but will the Tea Partiers really vote for him when push comes to shove? That remains to be seen.

  84. avatar
    Loren October 7, 2011 at 6:53 pm #

    Where, I must ask, are the Herman Cain Birthers?

    http://barackryphal.blogspot.com/2011/10/where-are-herman-cain-birthers.html

  85. avatar
    Daniel October 7, 2011 at 7:03 pm #

    Loren:
    Where, I must ask, are the Herman Cain Birthers?

    http://barackryphal.blogspot.com/2011/10/where-are-herman-cain-birthers.html

    If he was really in a position to be the Republican Nominee…. they’d be showing up.

  86. avatar
    G October 7, 2011 at 7:42 pm #

    Since we’ve been talking about it, this is a fun and informative look at the GOP Horse Race:

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2011/10/horse_race_politics_an_animation_of_the_2012_republican_campaign.html

    Wikipedia’s list of national polling includes the latest IBOPE Zogby poll making headlines today, which shows a surprising surge number for Cain (38%).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_opinion_polling_for_the_Republican_Party_2012_presidential_primaries

    A note of caution: if you look at the history of the IBOPE Zogby poll results listed there in comparison to almost all the other polling in similar timeframes, there results seem to be consistent only in having unusual outliers that don’t match up with any of the other polls. So, we’ll really just have to wait until there is more polling data available.

    As I’ve mentioned before, the real next test is the 10-11-11 debate, which will reset the dynamic in play. As there is another debate one week later 10-18-11, we could just be in a very fluxuating roller coaster ride over the next few weeks…

  87. avatar
    G October 7, 2011 at 7:48 pm #

    I’m still waiting to hear what his fundraising totals were for Q3. We know that Romney, Paul & Perry have all posted solid numbers that can easily sustain each of them into the early Primary contests. The others are still a mystery.

    Per Cain’s site, he is trying to build a campaign organization in IA, NH and FL. I’m quite surprised that SC isn’t on that list yet. If he can’t get all those early states properly staffed and in play soon…then he’s in trouble, regardless.

    Daniel: If he was really in a position to be the Republican Nominee…. they’d be showing up.

  88. avatar
    Keith October 8, 2011 at 1:32 am #

    Loren:
    Where, I must ask, are the Herman Cain Birthers?

    http://barackryphal.blogspot.com/2011/10/where-are-herman-cain-birthers.html

    Since the birthers don’t recognize the 14th amendment, I assume they would decide that the Dred Scott decision was the controlling law.

  89. avatar
    SluggoJD October 8, 2011 at 7:49 am #

    Daniel: If he was really in a position to be the Republican Nominee…. they’d be showing up.

    Loren:
    Where, I must ask, are the Herman Cain Birthers?

    http://barackryphal.blogspot.com/2011/10/where-are-herman-cain-birthers.html

    Agree with Daniel, he’s no threat so they bite their tongue right now, and try their best to hide their racist souls.

  90. avatar
    misha October 8, 2011 at 3:23 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I’ve found the the best pizza at independent restaurants. The House of Pizza is nearby and another local chain is Real Pizza.

    I spent many years in Buffalo getting two degrees. The best pizza I ever had was Bocce Club: http://bocceclubpizza.com/

    The best pizza in Philly is Top Tomato: http://www.toptomatopizzeria.com/

  91. avatar
    misha October 8, 2011 at 3:27 pm #

    Majority Will: Top 10 Things Herman Cain Doesn’t Want You To Know About Him

    I am most concerned about his plan to appoint all sensative offices to Martians. They are the real subversives. Did you know about the Martian plan to…

    Oh, wait. Wrong blog. Never mind.

  92. avatar
    Sef October 8, 2011 at 5:36 pm #

    misha: I am most concerned about his plan to appoint all sensative offices to Martians. They are the real subversives. Did you know about the Martian plan to…

    Oh, wait. Wrong blog. Never mind.

    Now you’ve done it!

    Apparently, the most popular car color now is white. I wonder if that is to distinguish them from all the black cars of the PTB.

  93. avatar
    Northland10 October 8, 2011 at 7:03 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I’ve found the the best pizza at independent restaurants. The House of Pizza is nearby and another local chain is Real Pizza. When choosing a place to live, one criteria is pizza within walking distance.

    I doubt I can contribute effectively as I once worked for Herman Cain, though I did not realize it at the time. Where I live now, walking distance could be good because with Chicago style, you need the extra exercise.

  94. avatar
    Joey October 8, 2011 at 10:12 pm #

    Cain finished second today in the highly media hyped “Values Voters Summit” straw poll.
    “Hyped” because the Southern Baptist Minister who introduced Rick Perry called Momonism a non-Christian “cult.”
    Ron Paul finished first.
    Paul: 37%
    Cain: 23%
    Santorum: 16%
    Perry and Bachman: 8%
    Romney: 4%
    Gingrich: 3%
    Huntsman: 0

    The Family Research Council sponsors this event which means being Pro-Life is of maximum importance.

  95. avatar
    Suranis October 9, 2011 at 2:23 pm #

    I find it easy to mock the guy that makes my pizza… oh yeah, I make my pizza! :D

    On Cain a troll at TPM was saying that Cain would win in a matchup with Obama because he has darker skin than Obama and all the liberals with liberal guilt would vote for the blacker candidate to prove they are not racist. Of course my genuine response was “He does?”

    Snark aside I can see that a s a factor in Cains favour, if they decide to push his blackness to take the presidency away from Obama.

  96. avatar
    Majority Will October 9, 2011 at 2:51 pm #

    Suranis:
    I find it easy to mock the guy that makes my pizza… oh yeah, I make my pizza!

    On Cain a troll at TPM was saying that Cain would win in a matchup with Obama because he has darker skin than Obama and all the liberals with liberal guilt would vote for the blacker candidate to prove they are not racist. Of course my genuine response was “He does?”

    Snark aside I can see that a s a factor in Cains favour, if they decide to push his blackness to take the presidency away from Obama.

    Gee. Why didn’t this racist dumbass just claim that Cain could dance better or eat more watermelon?

  97. avatar
    Rickey October 9, 2011 at 3:39 pm #

    Suranis:

    Snark aside I can see that a s a factor in Cains favour, if they decide to push his blackness to take the presidency away from Obama.

    Considering that black unemployment is twice the rate of white unemployment, I doubt that very many black voters will respond positively to Cain’s proclamation that it is their own fault if they don’t have jobs.

    I also learned today that Cain’s 9-9-9 tax proposal exempts used goods from his 9% national sales tax. When asked today if that wouldn’t put the price of new cars at an even higher premium over used cars, can said not to worry because “it would used up the current inventory of used cars.” He apparently believes that once the current inventory of used cars is sold, there will be no more used cars on the market.

    Perhaps Cain believes that low-income people won’t be affected by the 9% tax because they can’t afford to buy new goods, anyway. It would be a boon for Goodwill stores, though.

  98. avatar
    Majority Will October 9, 2011 at 3:51 pm #

    Rickey: Considering that black unemployment is twice the rate of white unemployment, I doubt that very many black voters will respond positively to Cain’s proclamation that it is their own fault if they don’t have jobs.

    I also learned today that Cain’s 9-9-9 tax proposal exempts used goods from his 9% national sales tax. When asked today if that wouldn’t put the price of new cars at an even higher premium over used cars, can said not to worry because “it would used up the current inventory of used cars.” He apparently believes that once the current inventory of used cars is sold, there will be no more used cars on the market.

    Perhaps Cain believes that low-income people won’t be affected by the 9% tax because they can’t afford to buy new goods, anyway. It would be a boon for Goodwill stores, though.

    *facepalm*

  99. avatar
    Expelliarmus October 9, 2011 at 4:22 pm #

    Suranis: On Cain a troll at TPM was saying that Cain would win in a matchup with Obama because he has darker skin than Obama and all the liberals with liberal guilt would vote for the blacker candidate to prove they are not racist. Of course my genuine response was “He does?”

    Snark aside I can see that a s a factor in Cains favour, if they decide to push his blackness to take the presidency away from Obama.

    And that, of course, is why Alan Keyes was elected Senator of Illinois back in 2004 when running against Obama.

    Oh, wait. He wasn’t ………

  100. avatar
    jayHG October 10, 2011 at 2:48 am #

    Majority Will: Gee. Why didn’t this racist dumbass just claim that Cain could dance better or eat more watermelon?

    Fantastic response!!!!

  101. avatar
    Majority Will October 10, 2011 at 8:52 am #

    jayHG: Fantastic response!!!!

    Thanks. Unfortunately, I’ve known a few of these idiots from growing up in the 60s and 70s in the South.

  102. avatar
    Patrick McKinnion October 10, 2011 at 4:52 pm #

    Bovril:
    If you wander by any of the boards they infest, Conservatives4Palin is a prime one, the sheer delusional vituperative rage pointed at the “GOP Establishment” “who done her wrong” is both entertaining and very worrying for the GOP.

    These people define the “fan” in “fanatic” and are a significant number of the hard right of the GOP. The mixture of pouting that their idol is not in the race. delusion that she will somehow miraculously return from the wilderness and hate that is greater for the GOP than Obama will lead to a ….IMHO

    Splintering of those of WILL vote
    Vindictive primary voting
    Protest abstinence in the Presidential vote
    Refusal to participate in GOP fund raising and support

    Just read the comments, these are very unhappy people…..couldn’t happen to a better party, as you sow, so shall you reap

    That sounds almost identical to how the PUMA crowd handled the Democratic party. (granted, some PUMAs became Palinistas…..)

  103. avatar
    G October 11, 2011 at 10:43 pm #

    Well, I didn’t realize that the 10-11-11 debate wouldn’t be televised and pretty much only available to watch online via Bloomberg, provided someone really, really, really sought it out. (which I did).

    The format was decent, the candidates were pretty much full of their same talking points, but not much in terms of reporting that will filter into a broader media from this one, so it pretty much is like the tree that falls in the forest when no one is around.

    Therefore, no real game changer here. Cain will likely continue to ascend in the polls, merely based on his existing upward trend. Perry and Bachmann didn’t move the needle for themselves really in any meaningful way. Mitt had another decent performance (in comparison to the others), but if he gets any “bump”…it will probably be more from the Chris Christie endorsement today than his debate performance. Paul and Gingrich just may continue to also see their small upward trends continue as they have over the past few weeks, which is really just part of the fallout of those seeking other than Romney/Perry. Santorum & Huntsman probably don’t see any movement at all.

    We’ll have to wait to the CNN debate next week on 10-18-11 for an actual “televised” chance for the candidates to be seen by a broader public and see how that impacts the trend as tonight’s will pretty much go unnoticed by the broader GOP primary electorate.

    G: As I’ve mentioned before, the real next test is the 10-11-11 debate, which will reset the dynamic in play. As there is another debate one week later 10-18-11, we could just be in a very fluxuating roller coaster ride over the next few weeks…

  104. avatar
    Rickey October 13, 2011 at 5:51 pm #

    Cain’s 9-9-9 tax plan gets ripped here:

    http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/13/8304334-cains-9-9-9-tax-plan-is-simple-most-will-simply-pay-more

  105. avatar
    G October 13, 2011 at 8:17 pm #

    Of course it is a disasterous and ludicrous plan and can easily be ripped to shreds upon scrutiny and realization of the impacts that would result from trying to implement it. As are many of the other ridiculous ideas he touts, such as the “Chilean model”, etc.

    However, such logic might not make much of an impact unless he makes it to the general election…where facts should start to matter again.

    This is the GOP Primary in the current GOP envioronment after all. It really doesn’t matter what kinds of crazy is said by these candidates…as long their words don’t come across as “contrary” to these pseudo-conservatives “principles”.

    At this stage, fact checking really doesn’t matter as much. Cain can easily win over a sufficient number of the GOP base, just by continuing to speak the way he does. All that matters is that he comes across to them as bold, charismatic and with memorable soundbytes that pander to a red meat base. He’s got that down to a “T”.

    Style is what really matters here to this crowd (and being the right type of evangelical conservative…which he is), NOT substance. That is all he needs to retain his popularity in the polls with them.

    Of course, in order for him to actually translate that into winning those primaries, he needs to learn how to put an actual boots on the ground campaign together and get experienced enough campaign staff as well as translate his rise in popularity into actual campaign contributions. Without addressing those factors sufficiently and soon, he’s going to have a difficult challenge locking in actual votes and being able to sustain his campaign against Romney through a long primary season.

    Rickey: Cain’s 9-9-9 tax plan gets ripped here:http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/13/8304334-cains-9-9-9-tax-plan-is-simple-most-will-simply-pay-more

  106. avatar
    dunstvangeet October 14, 2011 at 2:59 am #

    That’s not the only thing…

    Let’s say that Herman Cain’s plan works like it’s spoken…

    Everybody pays a total of 9% of their income in federal income taxes…

    Now, let’s get to the sales tax. Study after study have shown that Sales Taxes are fundamentally regressive and that the poorest Americans pay more of their money in Sales tax than the richest Americans do. Add to this the fact that we have a flat income tax (persuming no loopholes which we’ll get to later), this would fundamentally mean that the rich pay somewhere right around 9% of their income on Federal Taxes (maybe upto about 10%, or 11%.) However, the poor would pay somewhere around 30% of their income of Federal Taxes. Let me say, exactly how is this a “fair tax”?

    You can see a breakdown of State and Local Tax burdens, state-by-state here: http://www.itepnet.org/whopays3.pdf

  107. avatar
    Majority Will October 14, 2011 at 7:51 am #

    dunstvangeet:
    That’s not the only thing…

    Let’s say that Herman Cain’s plan works like it’s spoken…

    Everybody pays a total of 9% of their income in federal income taxes…

    Now, let’s get to the sales tax.Study after study have shown that Sales Taxes are fundamentally regressive and that the poorest Americans pay more of their money in Sales tax than the richest Americans do.Add to this the fact that we have a flat income tax (persuming no loopholes which we’ll get to later), this would fundamentally mean that the rich pay somewhere right around 9% of their income on Federal Taxes (maybe upto about 10%, or 11%.)However, the poor would pay somewhere around 30% of their income of Federal Taxes.Let me say, exactly how is this a “fair tax”?

    You can see a breakdown of State and Local Tax burdens, state-by-state here: http://www.itepnet.org/whopays3.pdf

    But I thought Cain had a degree in mathematics?

    Or maybe he’s just hoping the masses are too stupid to notice.

  108. avatar
    gorefan October 14, 2011 at 10:07 am #

    Rickey: Cain’s 9-9-9 tax plan gets ripped here:

    And his plan gets explained here:

    http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/12/8290508-tax-group-9-9-9-a-major-tax-cut-for-the-rich-substantial-increase-on-others?ocid=twitter

    A major tax cut for the rich and a tax increase for the poor and middle class according to the non-partisan Tax Policy Center.

  109. avatar
    Obsolete October 14, 2011 at 5:24 pm #

    But as Cain has already noted- if you are poor and have to pay more taxes because of it, it is your own fault.

  110. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater October 15, 2011 at 8:57 pm #

    I don’t know if you guys saw this but apparently in the game Sim City 4 the tax rates start at 9-9-9 Maddow did a piece on this

  111. avatar
    Majority Will October 16, 2011 at 6:35 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater:
    I don’t know if you guys saw this but apparently in the game Sim City 4 the tax rates start at 9-9-9 Maddow did a piece on this

    Right now it’s only a question and an awfully strange coincidence.

    “Cain’s 999 plan inspired by SimCity?”

    (excerpt) Details on how Cain came up with the plan are hazy. With the exception of Rich Lowrie, an employee at the local Wells Fargo bank in Cleveland, his team of economic advisers remains on the the DL. (To him, his “advisers are the American people.”)

    The Huffington Post may have stumbled upon the foundation of 999 in the virtual game land of SimCity:

    Long before Cain was running for president and getting attention for his 999 plan, the residents of SimCity 4 — which was released in 2003 — were living under a system where the default tax rate was 9 percent for commercial taxes, 9 percent for industrial taxes and 9 percent for residential taxes. (That is, of course, if you didn’t use the cheat codes to get unlimited money and avoid taxes altogether.)

    When asked about the similarities between them, Cain campaign spokesman JD Gordon told HuffPo “we all like 999.”

    (source: http://thelastword.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/13/8309009-cains-999-plan-inspired-by-simcity)

  112. avatar
    gorefan October 16, 2011 at 6:00 pm #

    Obsolete: But as Cain has already noted- if you are poor and have to pay more taxes because of it, it is your own fault.

    Cain comes clean and admits is plan will raise taxes for some. He thinks only those who buy more goods.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44921197/ns/politics-decision_2012/

  113. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 18, 2011 at 8:12 am #

    The analysis I saw says that lower income earners could see their taxes up by as much as $5,000 a year, but folks with incomes over $120,000 would see them go down, the higher the income, the more the taxes would come down.

    Cain’s answer is for the poor to shop at thrift stores, since used goods are exempt from his national sales tax. That’s a good strategy for them; however, a shift from new to used goods doesn’t create jobs for folks who make new goods. But maybe they are all made in China anyway.

    gorefan: Cain comes clean and admits is plan will raise taxes for some. He thinks only those who buy more goods.

  114. avatar
    Scientist October 18, 2011 at 8:43 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Cain’s answer is for the poor to shop at thrift stores, since used goods are exempt from his national sales tax.

    Tell me we wouldn’t see a whole industry of consultants with strategies that would magically transform new goods into “used”.

    By the way, most industrialized countries do have national consumption taxes, either VATs like in Europe or Goods and Services Taxes (GSTs) like Canada and Australia. In Canada, they counteracted the regressivity through income tax credits to low income people. As far as I know, Cain’s plan has no such credits.

    The so-called “Fair tax” proposed replacing income taxes with a very high VAT-type tax (somewhere around 30% would be the minimum needed). While horriibly regressive, at least it had the virtue of simpliciity. Cain’s POS lacks even that since it keeps the income tax and most of the special provisions, including not taxing dividends and capital gains. I thought nothing could be a worse gemisch of warmed-over crap than a Godfather’s pizza, but Cain’s tax plan has proven that wrong.

  115. avatar
    James M October 18, 2011 at 10:29 am #

    dunstvangeet: Let’s say that Herman Cain’s plan works like it’s spoken…

    Everybody pays a total of 9% of their income in federal income taxes…

    The truly wealthy don’t have “incomes” if they don’t want them. They have growth on their capital, which they can control for the most favorable tax advantage, but as far as “income” in the sense of a wage, that’s just not the correct frame of reference. That’s why the whole debate about income taxes, and even capital gains taxes to a degree, is flawed. I don’t advocate a tax on fixed wealth, but I also don’t think income tax is the solution in the first place.

  116. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) October 18, 2011 at 11:38 am #

    Scientist: Tell me we wouldn’t see a whole industry of consultants with strategies that would magically transform new goods into “used”. By the way, most industrialized countries do have national consumption taxes, either VATs like in Europe or Goods and Services Taxes (GSTs) like Canada and Australia. In Canada, they counteracted the regressivity through income tax credits to low income people. As far as I know, Cain’s plan has no such credits. The so-called “Fair tax” proposed replacing income taxes with a very high VAT-type tax (somewhere around 30% would be the minimum needed). While horriibly regressive, at least it had the virtue of simpliciity. Cain’s POS lacks even that since it keeps the income tax and most of the special provisions, including not taxing dividends and capital gains. I thought nothing could be a worse gemisch of warmed-over crap than a Godfather’s pizza, but Cain’s tax plan has proven that wrong.

    How are the lower income people going to be able to afford all those cheap Pizzas if their taxes go up?

  117. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) October 18, 2011 at 11:39 am #

    Cain needs to introduce the 30 minutes or less plan in which he gives me back the balance of the 15 minutes he’s already overdrawn on.

  118. avatar
    Sef October 18, 2011 at 12:02 pm #

    Something that Cain’s “999” plan ignores is that there is absolutely no possibility that states, localities and school districts will give up their taxing authority, If they did the Federal government would need to subsidize these localities for their entire budget. When decreasing Federal taxation is discussed people ignore that this just “trickles down” the problem to a lower level. All of the things that governments do still must be done: teachers must be paid, snow must be plowed, etc., etc., etc. If there is less money coming from the Federal government then local taxes must increase. The bottom line amount of money does not decrease. Even where local governments say they have not increased property taxes the difference is made up in other “fees”, which are often not income tax deductible, which further increases the bottom-line burden. The Tea Party is guilty of this obfuscation.

  119. avatar
    James M October 18, 2011 at 1:01 pm #

    Sef: All of the things that governments do still must be done: teachers must be paid, snow must be plowed, etc., etc., etc.

    Where do you live that teachers are “paid”, and are they hiring?

  120. avatar
    Rickey October 18, 2011 at 1:21 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:

    Cain’s answer is for the poor to shop at thrift stores, since used goods are exempt from his national sales tax. That’s a good strategy for them; however, a shift from new to used goods doesn’t create jobs for folks who make new goods. But maybe they are all made in China anyway.

    The tricky part will be finding stores which carry used food.

  121. avatar
    Sef October 18, 2011 at 1:39 pm #

    James M: Where do you live that teachers are “paid”, and are they hiring?

    I certainly didn’t imply that they were being paid for the value of their services.

  122. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 18, 2011 at 1:56 pm #

    And used gasoline.

    Rickey: The tricky part will be finding stores which carry used food.

  123. avatar
    misha October 18, 2011 at 4:24 pm #

    Rickey: The tricky part will be finding stores which carry used food.

    Dr. Conspiracy: And used gasoline.

    Get a diesel. They can run on used pure cooking oil from restaurants. Storage drums are always behind the buildings.

    You have to realize people like Cain and Thomas are snobs. They look down on anyone who has not accomplished as much as they have, black, white or anyone else. I once read an interview with Thomas in the Washington Post. He said liberalism was the cause of slavery. Of course, like most conservatives, he had it backwards. The liberals of the day were the abolitionists, and ran the Underground Railroad. The conservatives of the day used Christianity to justify slavery. And conservatives of today are adamant that the Civil War was about States Rights – slavery had nothing to do with it. I heard that all the time when I worked in Virginia. I’m sure they also believe in the tooth fairy.

    Political plug time: If Romney is elected, Israel will attack Iran, and the US will be sucked in. Readers here don’t know the Settlers, the way I do. They want Israel as a whole, to be Arabrein. And they want the West Bank for lebensraum. They are funded, and egged on, by American evangelicals.

  124. avatar
    gorefan October 18, 2011 at 6:07 pm #

    Rickey: The tricky part will be finding stores which carry used food.

    Someone thought of that:

    http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2007/09/02/tesco-launches-pre-chewed-food-for-busy-commuters-192/

  125. avatar
    G October 18, 2011 at 6:20 pm #

    I realize it is a joke but still…*barf*.

    gorefan: Someone thought of that:http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2007/09/02/tesco-launches-pre-chewed-food-for-busy-commuters-192/

  126. avatar
    WEP October 18, 2011 at 7:13 pm #

    misha:
    Get a diesel. They can run on used pure cooking oil from restaurants. Storage drums are always behind the buildings.

    Yeah, but it might not be free for the taking.

    I used to pay for someone to come get mine. Nowadays, companies will bring you a container and then pay you for what they take. I just got fifty dollars last week for 400 hundred pounds.

  127. avatar
    James M October 18, 2011 at 7:14 pm #

    gorefan: Someone thought of that:

    http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2007/09/02/tesco-launches-pre-chewed-food-for-busy-commuters-192/

    Hare Krishna restaurants can sell food that has been offered to Lord Krishna :-) They get both a religious and a “used food” exemption that way :-) :-) :-)

  128. avatar
    Keith October 19, 2011 at 1:02 am #

    Sef: All of the things that governments do still must be done: teachers must be paid…,

    Nah, the Libertarians are gonna shut down all them Socialist Gummnit Skools.

    misha: And conservatives of today are adamant that the Civil War was about States Rights – slavery had nothing to do with it.

    In actual fact, it was about States Rights at the beginning and neo-confederates can talk about States Rights all they want – slavery was a States Rights issue until Lincoln changed the ball game.

    Lincoln made it the moral issue long after the war had started. The general mood of the people couldn’t see the point of fighting their brethren States. He needed a moral reason to prosecute the war and get the populace behind it, so he turned Slavery into a moral issue.

    And that is a GOOD THING. Lincoln critics often say that he didn’t want to free the slaves and wouldn’t issue the proclamation until he was forced to. The point, however is that he did issue the proclamation and changed the course of history.

    And that is a GOOD THING.

  129. avatar
    G October 19, 2011 at 1:05 am #

    Yes, and that is the key truth of the impetus of that argument both then…as well as to some extent of what that use of the dog-whistle still refers to today. The priamary southern “States Rights” issue was the right to own slaves. Therefore, saying one really meant the other.

    Keith: In actual fact, it was about States Rights at the beginning and neo-confederates can talk about States Rights all they want – slavery was a States Rights issue until Lincoln changed the ball game.

  130. avatar
    Robert Clark October 20, 2011 at 8:29 am #

    Doc C., your FOIA request on Ann Dunham’s passport files would appear to be simpler one to fulfill than the Christopher Strunk FOIA request yet yours is taking more than a year longer, and still counting, to resolve than his. Curious.
    Perhaps you could write or better call directly the government attorney who wrote that letter to you about your FOIA Jonathan M. Polbin:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/State_FOIA_200901145.pdf

    and explain to him why the responses have not been responsive directly to the questions you are asking.

    Bob