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Obots occupy Wall Street

I don’t visit Twitter often, and when I do I instinctively avoid looking at the tweets from one person I’m following, NobamaNetwork. Today I looked and found these:

Obama’s class warfare and his organized protests for it in NY are really starting to piss me off. Ob using NY idiots for his reelection

Obama has proven he is willing to use or destroy anyone to get re-elected. Now Obs "us against the rich protests" in NY are turning violent.

OccupyWallSt is a result of Obama’s class warfare. How long before the protest turns into a riot. Hey Ob, this is the harm of class warfare

I would consider the view that Obama is behind the Occupy Wall Street movement a conspiracy theory. I guess the view that the Koch brothers are pulling the Tea Party’s strings is another. In any case, I can justify writing the article.

The Nobama Network is an aggregator for all sorts of anti-Obama web sites, including some birther sites. According to Wonkette, the person behind Nobama Network is a “hot porn guru.” I won’t mention any names, but you can read it at Wonkette. Thus begins the tenuous birther – porn connection. Time to start connecting dots. And what are these P.U.M.A. hookers?

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84 Responses to Obots occupy Wall Street

  1. avatar
    Paul October 10, 2011 at 7:50 pm #

    Wonkette Is God(ess)

  2. avatar
    G October 10, 2011 at 8:08 pm #

    The difference here is that there are many well documented links of the connection to the Koch brothers being the money and propaganda force behind much of the rise and media coverage of the Tea Party.

    Unlike the rest of the “conspiracy theories” out there, in the case of the Koch brothers and the Tea Party, the connections are real.

    I guess the view that the Koch brothers are pulling the Tea Party’s strings is another.

  3. avatar
    gorefan October 10, 2011 at 9:16 pm #

    According to Herman Cain the Wall Street protestors were organized to cover for the Obama Administration,

    “I don’t have facts to back this up, but I happen to believe that these demonstrations are planned and orchestrated, to distract from the failed policies of the Obama administration,”

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/05/1023134/-Herman-Cain-to-Jobless:-Its-Your-Fault!-+-OWS-Protests-Organized-by-Obama-but-I-have-no-facts-

    The “I don’t have facts” part is very disturbing for a presidential candidate.

  4. avatar
    Keith October 10, 2011 at 11:34 pm #

    G: The difference here is that there are many well documented links of the connection to the Koch brothers being the money and propaganda force behind much of the rise and media coverage of the Tea Party.

    From the mouth(s) of the Koch Brothers themselves, no less.

  5. avatar
    G October 10, 2011 at 11:41 pm #

    Agreed. I would go further and say it is very disturbing for *anyone* and a profoundly sadly disturbing alarm on the state of critical thinking, discourse and “brainwashing” in our nation.

    It has become such an overwhelming trend, particularly on the GOP side of the political spectrum.

    See also Sen Jon Kyl’s “not intended to be a factual statement”…

    gorefan: The “I don’t have facts” part is very disturbing for a presidential candidate.

  6. avatar
    Keith October 11, 2011 at 2:26 am #

    G: See also Sen Jon Kyl’s “not intended to be a factual statement”…

    See also: Phoney Tony caught out

    That’s a 4 minute video of the guy who wants to be the next Prime Minister of Australia (and has a very good chance to make it), trying to justify his habit of bald face, unashamed lying to the Australian public.

    Analysis of that interview: http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/05/18/tony-abbotts-struggle-with-the-truth/.

    The best spin I’ve seen about Tony Abbott’s disastrous 7.30 Report interview is the fact he’s willing to admit he lies reflects a commendable honesty, much better than most politicians who lie without ever acknowledging it. Abbott has boldly broken down the fourth wall of politics, turning to the audience and pointed out that he’s just working to a script, not actually saying what he means.

    In short, Abbott is authentic and honest because he admits you can’t believe him. Nice.

  7. avatar
    Keith October 11, 2011 at 2:27 am #

    oopsy with the markup.

  8. avatar
    Lupin October 11, 2011 at 2:59 am #

    G: Agreed. I would go further and say it is very disturbing for *anyone* and a profoundly sadly disturbing alarm on the state of critical thinking, discourse and “brainwashing” in our nation.

    It has become such an overwhelming trend, particularly on the GOP side of the political spectrum.

    See also Sen Jon Kyl’s “not intended to be a factual statement”…

    What is even more disturbing is that, AFAIK, other than Jon Stewart, none of your media are nailing those kind of statements to the pillory board, letting your demagogues get away with it.

  9. avatar
    charo October 11, 2011 at 3:47 am #

    John Stewart in his trademark brand making fun of Cain stating that he didn’t have all the facts:

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/jon-stewart-on-herman-cain-i-dont-have-the-facts-to-back-this-up-20111006

    Just like he made fun of Obama speaking without having all the facts here:

    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2009/07/24/jon-stewart-obama-handled-gates-racism-question-stupidly

    (Actually, the whole 8 minute clip here is funny, which mostly had to do with healthcare).

  10. avatar
    charo October 11, 2011 at 3:48 am #

    forward to 6:12 if you want to get to the speaking without facts part.

  11. avatar
    charo October 11, 2011 at 3:52 am #

    I found a less controversial link:

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-july-23-2009/white-house-m-d-

  12. avatar
    charo October 11, 2011 at 8:18 am #

    This simply jaw dropping:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QZlp3eGMNI&feature=player_embedded

  13. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 11, 2011 at 8:43 am #

    FIFY

    Keith:
    oopsy with the markup.

  14. avatar
    Thrifty October 11, 2011 at 9:17 am #

    Lupin: What is even more disturbing is that, AFAIK, other than Jon Stewart, none of your media are nailing those kind of statements to the pillory board, letting your demagogues get away with it.

    Thanks again for crapping all over America and reminding us how superior you believe your nation to be, as you are so fond of doing. We really appreciate it.

  15. avatar
    gorefan October 11, 2011 at 10:25 am #

    charo: This simply jaw dropping:

    It was a shame that at the end of the video they cut off Congressman Lewis’ response. This video might explain why:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XCLBNkBvL0&feature=related

    The difference between the Obama/Gates statement and the Cain statement is that Cain is proposing a nationwide conspiracy involving the Administration and others to distract from their policies. Do we want a president who bases decisions on anoymous e-mails?

  16. avatar
    charo October 11, 2011 at 11:12 am #

    gorefan: It was a shame that at the end of the video they cut off Congressman Lewis’ response. This video might explain why:

    I have no problem with the Congressman. He had nothing to do with the organization of the event. But to say that this was a form of discussion and debate????

    Okaayyy

    gorefan: The difference between the Obama/Gates statement and the Cain statement is that Cain is proposing a nationwide conspiracy involving the Administration and others to distract from their policies. Do we want a president who bases decisions on anoymous e-mails?

    Anytime someone (no matter who that someone is) begins with “I don’t have the facts but…” that person is on shaky ground.

    You don’t like Cain. You really don’t need any more reasons to feel otherwise. I am giving him a chance.

  17. avatar
    Scientist October 11, 2011 at 11:51 am #

    To our resident troll: It’s so nice of you as usual to evade the real issue here. That is, not the behavior of some people at some rally in Atlanta (which I don’t agree with) nor something the President might have said in regards to some barely-remembered and certainly unrelated squabble, nor even anything the Baron of Terrible Pizza might have said. No, the real question, which you are attempting to evade, whether deliberately or not (I have my suspicions) is, quite simply the following:

    Are the Occupy Wall Street protesters, whatever their failings, right or wrong in their central thesis that the concentration of wealth that has occured in the last 30 years is a bad thing for the country?

    Let me address 2 aspects of that question:

    1. Political and economic- It is very clear that throughout history, the concentration of wealth in the hands of an oligarchy has been incompatible with democracy, or with political and economic stability. That has been true whether one looks at Imperial Rome, Bourbon France or today’s Russia or China. Such societies rarely last long and are generally unpleasant places in which to live. In the end, concentrating the wealth in too few hands is bad even for the wealthy, because in a modern economy they can only increase their wealth by selling the products of the industries they own and that requires a broad base of customers with rising (as opposed to falling) disposable incomes. The wiser members of the oligarchy know this.

    2. Moral. Our resident troll claims to be a Christian. I don’t, yet I have read the Bible (sometimes when travelling I would find the book I brought tiresome, so I would check out the Gideons). I saw very little about, say, abortion, but an awful lot about the wealthy and the problems of the poor. The Church our resident troll belongs to (the one Mr Strunk hates) while they have condemned abortion and homosexuality, have certainly also strongly condemned the concentration of wealth. John Paul II made quite clear that the market, whiile it serves some valuable purposes is not the be-all and end-all of human existence.

    So, let’s get back on the real issue-is the concentration of wealth a problem? I say that it is and Occupy Wall Street recognizes that, while Nobama and the Tea Party are completely MIA. When it comes to exactly which policies to adopt to address the problem, they probably have some homework to do, as do the rest of us.

  18. avatar
    Lupin October 11, 2011 at 12:16 pm #

    Thrifty: Lupin: What is even more disturbing is that, AFAIK, other than Jon Stewart, none of your media are nailing those kind of statements to the pillory board, letting your demagogues get away with it.

    Thanks again for crapping all over America and reminding us how superior you believe your nation to be, as you are so fond of doing. We really appreciate it.

    This is a load of rubbish.

    First, you don’t dispute my point. I post on DKos. I read Atrios, Greenwald, John Cole’s, etc. I’m not the one who coined the nickname “Versailles” to disparage your media. The criticism is neither new, nor undeserved. To resent it because a foreigner echoes it is childish at best, bigoted at worst. (You might have noted that I was praising Jon Stewart at the same time, but you didn’t. I wish we had a Jon Stewart in France.)

    Two, even if France was the absolute worst country in the world, it still would be irrelevant to the issues at hand. That another country may be “better” or “worse” does not mean anything when discussing your problems, no more than what’s happening in the US would be meaningful when discussing France’s problems. This is not a zero-sum game. (We have many problems, and I’d be happy to make apologies for some of my country’s most appalling actions, but my understanding is that this is not the appropriate forum to discuss them.)

    Three, I’ll now tackle your personal attack: I lived and worked in the US in the 80s and 90s. Without going into a long essay, I have greatly admired your country and defended it steadfastly, even during the Viet-Nam War or the Reagan Years, despite much justified criticism. (Don’t get me started on Kissinger.) But the harsh reality is that, in the last decade, for a variety of reasons, America has turned very ugly. Frankly, I find it heart-breaking myself. I’m not the only European to feel that way either.

    This forum, unfortunately or not, exposes a very sinister underbelly of America; hence it is unlikely that we’ll have an opportunity to discuss your better achievements, the ones you can be really proud of, unmatched in the world, such as the Mars Rovers or the Hubble Space Telescope. If you weren’t in Iraq, you could be on Mars right now (according to NASA figures crunched by the BOSTON GLOBE) and no one would be cheering more loudly than I.

    But instead, we are confronted here to narrow, bigoted mindsets who can’t come to terms with the proper election of a black man in the White House. How very sad that is. Unless you advocate banning foreigners from this site, I hardly see how one can avoid being critical.

  19. avatar
    gorefan October 11, 2011 at 12:25 pm #

    charo: Anytime someone (no matter who that someone is) begins with “I don’t have the facts but…” that person is on shaky ground.

    Go back and listen to the President’s statement on Gates – he said he didn’t have the facts to say if race was involved and he goes on to say the police acted stupidly. The first is a fact and the second is an opinion that frankly, I never understood why the conservatives didn’t embrace.

    Oh BTW, President Obama later came out and apologized for the his “stupidity” statement. We will have to just wait and see if Mr. Cain walks back his statement.

    charo: have no problem with the Congressman. He had nothing to do with the organization of the event. But to say that this was a form of discussion and debate????
    Okaayyy

    Don’t get sidetracked by the procedures (which admittedly seem silly), the video breaks down like this:

    The Congressman arrived unannounced and asked to speak to the crowd. The crowd debated whether they should interrupt what they were doing and allow the Congressman to speak. They voted and the consensus was not to let him speak. Congressman Lewis had no problem with this (as he explained in the second video but was cut off by the first video). Listen to the reasons for continuing with the agenda and not stopping to hear the Congressman. Listen to the respectful tones they used in talking about the Congressman.

  20. avatar
    misha October 11, 2011 at 12:32 pm #

    Thrifty: Thanks again for crapping all over America and reminding us how superior you believe your nation to be, as you are so fond of doing.

    Je suis désolé, but I’m going to take Lupin’s side on this one.

    Sarkozy’s mother was Jewish – you’ll never see that here. Sarkozy and his wife lived together for a long time, before marrying. You’ll never see that here. Carla Bruni never married the father of her child – you’ll never see that here.

    Key Romney Advisers Advocate War With Iran – http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/10/07/338979/romney-advisers-war-iran/
    and http://rt.com/usa/news/romney-policy-bush-hayden-255/

    You’ll never see that in France.

    Dominique Strauss-Kahn, a socialist, would have been elected president, if he didn’t mess around with a maid. He’ll never get to be president because he’s a schmuck, not because he’s Jewish. You’ll never see a US president who is Jewish. Bernie Sanders, who was Burlington mayor for two terms, and now senator, ran every time as a Democrat-Socialist. Pat Buchanan, who is an anti-Semite, continually makes snide remarks about Sanders, using his dog whistle for the anti-Semites in the peanut gallery.

    Science textbook authors in France, don’t have to put up with creationists ID crackpots.

    France has the TGV. The US of A has George Will: “…the real reason for progressives’ passion for trains is their goal of diminishing Americans’ individualism in order to make them more amenable to collectivism…Time was, the progressive cry was “Workers of the world unite!” or “Power to the people!” Now it is less resonant: “All aboard!”
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/02/27/high-speed-to-insolvency.html

  21. avatar
    Majority Will October 11, 2011 at 12:58 pm #

    misha: Je suis désolé, but I’m going to take Lupin’s side on this one.

    Sarkozy’s mother was Jewish – you’ll never see that here. Sarkozy and his wife lived together for a long time, before marrying. You’ll never see that here. Carla Bruni never married the father of her child – you’ll never see that here.

    Key Romney Advisers Advocate War With Iran – http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/10/07/338979/romney-advisers-war-iran/
    andhttp://rt.com/usa/news/romney-policy-bush-hayden-255/

    You’ll never see that in France.

    Dominique Strauss-Kahn, a socialist, would have been elected president, if he didn’t mess around with a maid. He’ll never get to be president because he’s a schmuck, not because he’s Jewish. You’ll never see a US president who is Jewish. Bernie Sanders, who was Burlington mayor for two terms, and now senator, ran every time as a Democrat-Socialist. Pat Buchanan, who is an anti-Semite, continually makes snide remarks about Sanders, using his dog whistle for the anti-Semites in the peanut gallery.

    Science textbook authors in France, don’t have to put up with creationists ID crackpots.

    France has the TGV. The US of A has George Will: “…the real reason for progressives’ passion for trains is their goal of diminishing Americans’ individualism in order to make them more amenable to collectivism…Time was, the progressive cry was “Workers of the world unite!” or “Power to the people!” Now it is less resonant: “All aboard!”
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/02/27/high-speed-to-insolvency.html

    Never say never.

  22. avatar
    charo October 11, 2011 at 1:09 pm #

    gorefan: Go back and listen to the President’s statement on Gates – he said he didn’t have the facts to say if race was involved and he goes on to say the police acted stupidly. The first is a fact and the second is an opinion that frankly, I never understood why the conservatives didn’t embrace.

    I linked to John Stewart. I think I gave my position:

    Scientist:
    To our resident troll:It’s so nice of you as usual to evade the real issue here.That is, not the behavior of some people at some rally in Atlanta (which I don’t agree with) nor something the President might have said in regards to some barely-remembered and certainly unrelated squabble, nor even anything the Baron of Terrible Pizza might have said.No, the real question, which you are attempting to evade, whether deliberately or not (I have my suspicions) is, quite simply the following:

    Are the Occupy Wall Street protesters, whatever their failings, right or wrong in their central thesis that the concentration of wealth that has occured in the last 30 years is a bad thing for the country?

    Let me address 2 aspects of that question:

    1.Political and economic- It is very clear that throughout history, the concentration of wealth in the hands of an oligarchy has been incompatible with democracy, or with political and economic stability.That has been true whether one looks at Imperial Rome, Bourbon France or today’s Russia or China.Such societies rarely last long and are generally unpleasant places in which to live.In the end, concentrating the wealth in too few hands is bad even for the wealthy, because in a modern economy they can only increase their wealth by selling the products of the industries they own and that requires a broad base of customers with rising (as opposed to falling) disposable incomes.The wiser members of the oligarchy know this.

    2. Moral.Our resident troll claims to be a Christian.I don’t, yet I have read the Bible (sometimes when travelling I would find the book I brought tiresome, so I would check out the Gideons).I saw very little about, say, abortion, but an awful lot about the wealthy and the problems of the poor.The Church our resident troll belongs to (the one Mr Strunk hates) while they have condemned abortion and homosexuality, have certainly also strongly condemned the concentration of wealth.John Paul II made quite clear that the market, whiile itserves some valuable purposes is not the be-all and end-all of human existence.

    So, let’s get back on the real issue-is the concentration of wealth a problem?I say that it is and Occupy Wall Street recognizes that, while Nobama and the Tea Party are completely MIA.When it comes to exactly which policies to adopt to address the problem, they probably have some homework to do, as do the rest of us.

    I don’t know what your drivel has anything to do with the robotic responses of the crowd from the video. I gave no opinion on the Wall Street protestors. I agree with the mayor: as long as they are not breaking the laws, they have the right to protest.

  23. avatar
    charo October 11, 2011 at 1:11 pm #

    gorefan: The crowd debated whether they should interrupt what they were doing and allow the Congressman to speak.

    If you’re down with that kind of “debate” that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I found it creepy.

  24. avatar
    misha October 11, 2011 at 1:17 pm #

    Thrifty: Thanks again for crapping all over America and reminding us how superior you believe your nation to be, as you are so fond of doing.

    I’ll add this: Le Pen and his daughter Marine, have about 20% support.

    We have Rand Paul elected senator. He’s the opthalmologist who created his own certification board, and practiced with his self-awarded diploma. We have his father, Ron Paul, who is a crackpot getting traction – more traction than Le Pen.

    Add up the Tea Baggers, the Denialists, crackpots like Hagee, Bachmann and Paul, and the rest of the RWNJ, it’s about 1/3. Know why there will never be peace in the Middle East? American evangelicals fund the Settlers and their politicians. Bibi’s and Lieberman’s campaigns are funded by evangelicals. The Settlers are attacking Arabs in general, not just Palestinian Arabs. They are egged on by evangelicals, who have visions of Armageddon.

    Because of my stroke, I have a service dog who wears a vest “I am a service dog.” I have been refused taxis, city buses, laundromats and restaurants. I have two active written complaints with the Justice Department and the Taxicab Commission.

    Should we be more like the French and invite dogs to dinner?

    “I love dogs. Love them. But not around food,” one public health administrator told Oregon newspaper The World in 2007. “They are quite naturally a vector for a variety of pathogens, including salmonella and campylobacter, also possible exposures to diseases like ringworm.”

    Yet from a vet’s perspective, this claim is plainly ridiculous. Unless dogs are defecating willy-nilly in the kitchen among a staff with no hand-washing skills or the wait staff is interacting intimately with the dogs, such contagion would be nearly impossible.”
    http://www.usatoday.com/life/lifestyle/pets/2010-05-06-vetviews06_N.htm

  25. avatar
    charo October 11, 2011 at 1:20 pm #

    charo: Moral.Our resident troll claims to be a Christian.

    An imperfect one.

    charo: concentrating the wealth in too few hands is bad even for the wealthy, because in a modern economy they can only increase their wealth by selling the products of the industries they own and that requires a broad base of customers with rising (as opposed to falling) disposable incomes.The wiser members of the oligarchy know this.

    Obama, Bush, Clinton, … have all used the wealth of others to get elected.

    charo: John Paul II made quite clear that the market, whiile itserves some valuable purposes is not the be-all and end-all of human existence.

    He was trying to change people’s hearts. That is the best way to effect change.

    charo: Tea Party are completely MIA.

    I heard Laura Ingrahm yesterday talking about the points the Tea Party and the protestors have in common.

  26. avatar
    charo October 11, 2011 at 1:23 pm #

    Browbeating people and calling them names: always effective. Chris Strunk is a Vietnam Vet. Some of the Vets were never the same after their service. I don’t know what his experience was concerning Catholics. I was a convert. My experiences were probably different than his concerning religion.

  27. avatar
    gorefan October 11, 2011 at 1:27 pm #

    charo: I found it creepy.

    As creepy as the tea party shout-a-thons?

    And you missed Steward’s point that Obama’s statement was fine until he added the stupidity line. Not that his opinion was wrong but because it became the talking point for the news.

  28. avatar
    charo October 11, 2011 at 1:38 pm #

    gorefan: As creepy as the tea party shout-a-thons?

    And you missed Steward’s point that Obama’s statement was fine until he added the stupidity line.Not that his opinion was wrong but because it became the talking point for the news.

    You missed it where he stopped the clip and added but I don’t want to say anything because it is complicated and I don’t have all the facts.

    I’m not even holding the comment against Obama. Let me go back to my pint:

    As soon as anyone says I don’t have all the facts but… that leads to trouble. Even for Cain.

  29. avatar
    charo October 11, 2011 at 1:38 pm #

    my point- I don’t drink

  30. avatar
    Scientist October 11, 2011 at 1:49 pm #

    charo: I don’t know what your drivel has anything to do with the robotic responses of the crowd from the video.

    Have you ever gotten the main point of ANYTHING? Ever? Who cares about the crowd? Read what I wrote. Then read it again. Read it 10 times until you get the point. Then read it again. The real issue is orders of magnitude bigger than what some group of a few hundred people do.

    charo: I gave no opinion on the Wall Street protestors.

    But that is the POINT. That is what MATTERS. You have an endless appetite for the trivial yet cannot digest even a crumb of the consequential.

    This is about where we go as a society, not whether a congressperson speaks or doesn’t speak.

  31. avatar
    Horus October 11, 2011 at 2:22 pm #

    gorefan: According to Herman Cain the Wall Street protestors were organized to cover for the Obama Administration,

    “I don’t have facts to back this up, but I happen to believe that these demonstrations are planned and orchestrated, to distract from the failed policies of the Obama administration,”

    Isn’t that one of those “Not intended to be a factual statement” statements?

  32. avatar
    misha October 11, 2011 at 2:33 pm #

    charo:
    Our resident troll claims to be a Christian.
    An imperfect one.

    Ann Coulter:
    - We just want Jews to be perfected, as they say. … That’s what Christianity is.
    - Being a Christian means that I am called upon to do battle against lies, injustice, cruelty, hypocrisy — you know, all the virtues in the church of liberalism.
    - We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.
    - I think there should be a literacy test and a poll tax for people to vote.
    - The ethic of conservation is the explicit abnegation of man’s dominion over the Earth. The lower species are here for our use. God said so: Go forth, be fruitful, multiply, and rape the planet — it’s yours. That’s our job: drilling, mining and stripping. Sweaters are the anti-Biblical view. Big gas-guzzling cars with phones and CD players and wet bars — that’s the Biblical view.
    - My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times building. Of course I regret it. I should have added, “after everyone had left the building except the editors and reporters.”
    - Our book is Genesis. Their book is Rachel Carson’s Silent Spring, the original environmental hoax.

  33. avatar
    misha October 11, 2011 at 2:38 pm #

    Horus: According to Herman Cain the Wall Street protestors were organized to cover for the Obama Administration,
    “I don’t have facts to back this up, but I happen to believe that these demonstrations are planned and orchestrated, to distract from the failed policies of the Obama administration,”
    Isn’t that one of those “Not intended to be a factual statement” statements?

    Cain is a graduate of the Jon Kyl School of Public Speaking, a division of the Spiro Agnew School of Public Administration.

    >Intended to be a factual statement.

  34. avatar
    G October 11, 2011 at 2:38 pm #

    Yeah, I painfully sat through the whole thing to give it an objective watch/listen.

    (I say painfully, because I do agree that silly constant repeating of everything said is rather annoying. I can understand a crowd having input and even repeating certain phrases or slogans for emphasis or rallying purposes…but that was way, way too overboard for me and I can understand how it turns some off and even makes the crowd seem “zombified” responders, merely conforming and saying whatever the lead speaker says… yeah, I’m not down with that either.)

    That being said, I agree COMPLETELY with gorefan’s summary assessment below. Once you get past the endless repeated chanting, you do see that the crowd was mostly very respectful and was using a process similar to many council and club meetings to try to arrive at consensus and allow everyone to participate. Pretty standard democracy at work, if you ask me.

    gorefan: Don’t get sidetracked by the procedures (which admittedly seem silly), the video breaks down like this:
    The Congressman arrived unannounced and asked to speak to the crowd. The crowd debated whether they should interrupt what they were doing and allow the Congressman to speak. They voted and the consensus was not to let him speak. Congressman Lewis had no problem with this (as he explained in the second video but was cut off by the first video). Listen to the reasons for continuing with the agenda and not stopping to hear the Congressman. Listen to the respectful tones they used in talking about the Congressman.

  35. avatar
    charo October 11, 2011 at 2:43 pm #

    Scientist: Have you ever gotten the main point of ANYTHING? Ever?Who cares about the crowd?Read what I wrote.Then read it again.Read it 10 times until you get the point.Then read it again.The real issue is orders of magnitude bigger than what some group of a few hundred people do.

    But that is the POINT.That is what MATTERS.You have an endless appetite for the trivial yet cannot digest even a crumb of the consequential.

    This is about where we go as a society, not whether a congressperson speaks or doesn’t speak.

    As soon as I saw resident troll, I really didn’t care to read what you wrote. When you begin with an insult, the motivation simply is not there. It seems that under every system, a few end up with the wealth. [The best scenario from the past is the first group of Christians who gave everything for the common good. I can't remember the passage from the Bible, but one couple who did not hand over either all or sum of the funds from the sale of property and died immediately. Just inconsequential trivia to you I am sure.]

    I think it is good to draw attention to the economic demise of our country. Not every tea partier is an immoral boob nor is every Wall Street protestor. Our country has to be changed through the election process. The people with the most money usually win the elections.

  36. avatar
    charo October 11, 2011 at 2:47 pm #

    G: The crowd debated whether they should interrupt what they were doing and allow the Congressman to speak.

    The time they spent “debating” whether to interrupt their agenda could have been used to let the Congressman have a few words.

  37. avatar
    G October 11, 2011 at 3:04 pm #

    As are we all, regardless of what faith we do or do not follow. America overall has become too prideful and could use some more introspective humility, as you have just expressed. We could get along a lot better and make more progress if we simply owned up to our own imperfections and merely strived to learn from our mistakes and try to be better after every time we fall down.

    charo: charo: Moral.Our resident troll claims to be a Christian.
    An imperfect one.

    That is correct. They all do, as have all modern presidents. You can’t get elected without that under how our current process is set up. That is the source of the true problem in our democracy today – the power and influence of big money donors and lobbyists.

    That is where the focus of people’s ire and push for reform needs to be, because the politicians themselves have very little incentive or true power to effect that change themselves from within. Doing so just makes them a target by the very people they needed to get elected and reelected. It is that big money influence that is causing most of our problems – because it constrains politicians to bend to the special interests of a few very powerful wealthy voices over the broader will and needs of the populace.

    charo: Obama, Bush, Clinton, … have all used the wealth of others to get elected.

    The best thing that could happen here is for this nascent Occupy Wall Street movement to be joined by that segment of true grass-roots individuals that really did join the Tea Party because their main concern was the economic crisis and didn’t see any other outlet available to them.

    That has been my biggest critique of the Tea Party’s actions to date – they would claim one purpose but never seem to direct any of their actions towards actually doing something to address those problems in a way that would make any change or improvement.

    While Occupy Wall Street still lacks a cohesive agenda or goal, their initial actions are the proper form of civil disobedience that have long been championed in America for causes that led to eventual social change and reforms (whether Prohibitition or Women’s Rights or Worker’s Rights or Civil Rights, etc.)

    What they are doing by merely gathering together in places that draw attention and point a target to the sources of the problem and by staying put to have their expression of discontent heard IS what the Tea Party should have been doing ALL ALONG, had they actually been serious about their purported concerns.

    I seriously do hope the sincere ones amongst the Tea Party wake up and join up with OWS. These should not be “left” or “right” movements…the concern and need for restoring a vibrant and healthy middle class should be universal and not partisan.

    charo: I heard Laura Ingrahm yesterday talking about the points the Tea Party and the protestors have in common.

  38. avatar
    charo October 11, 2011 at 3:09 pm #

    G: That has been my biggest critique of the Tea Party’s actions to date – they would claim one purpose but never seem to direct any of their actions towards actually doing something to address those problems in a way that would make any change or improvement.

    They got some people elected. They had to do it through the Republican party because they could not win as Independents. They are using the process. Maybe you don’t agree with how they want to fix the problem but they are using the system to make an attempt.

  39. avatar
    Scientist October 11, 2011 at 3:10 pm #

    charo: As soon as I saw resident troll, I really didn’t care to read what you wrote.

    Yet you called it “drivel”. How “Christian” of you.

    charo: The best scenario from the past is the first group of Christians who gave everything for the common good. I can’t remember the passage from the Bible, but one couple who did not hand over either all or sum of the funds from the sale of property and died immediately. Just inconsequential trivia to you I am sure.]

    The first Christians were hardly the first or last society to function on that basis. Most “primitive” hunter-gatherer bands divided up the proceeds of the hunt equally or based on need. If one ate, all ate. Please stop pretending that Christians have a monopoly on virtue. Unfortunately the established Church quickly put a stop to the practices of the first Christians and rapidly began to amass great wealth and worldly power.

    charo: Our country has to be changed through the election process. The people with the most money usually win the elections.

    And the Tea Party is trying to change that how? By taking scads of $$$ from the Koch Brothers?

  40. avatar
    charo October 11, 2011 at 3:14 pm #

    G: had they actually been serious about their purported concerns.

    There were people who put an abundance of effort into the movement. Because it was a grassroots effort, you won’t see the same kind of progress as with, let’s say a Mitt Romney machine, or Team Obama. I think that is another reason for Cain’s increasing popularity: he is not part of the establishment. I think he can be convinced to modify his 9-9-9 plan. He is trying to offer a new idea because the old ways are not working.

  41. avatar
    G October 11, 2011 at 3:15 pm #

    I completely agree with that.

    The parlimentary process (which just about all organizations, large and small use to manage an agenda and reach concensus) is extremely tedious as it is. That constant repeating echo just slows it down further and magnifies how cumbersomely annoying it can be.

    That being said, I can’t blame any grass roots movement that is frustrated with the entire system to not want ANY politicians speaking at their event for fear of hijacking or politicizing their movement in a polarizing way (or at least, not without being invited or accepted to speak beforehand).

    Anyone should be allowed to attend the event and participate / support such movements – whether politician or just the guy down the street and shouldn’t need to be a speaker or “leader” at the event.

    charo: The time they spent “debating” whether to interrupt their agenda could have been used to let the Congressman have a few words.

  42. avatar
    charo October 11, 2011 at 3:21 pm #

    G: The parlimentary process (which just about all organizations, large and small use to manage an agenda and reach concensus) is extremely tedious as it is. That constant repeating echo just slows it down further and magnifies how cumbersomely annoying it can be.

    Okay, but I still find this particular style eerie.

  43. avatar
    charo October 11, 2011 at 3:24 pm #

    G: Anyone should be allowed to attend the event and participate / support such movements – whether politician or just the guy down the street and shouldn’t need to be a speaker or “leader” at the event.

    Do you really believe that if this were a tea party event and the crowd reached a consensus that the Congressmen should not be allowed to speak, it would not make major headlines?

  44. avatar
    charo October 11, 2011 at 3:25 pm #

    Have to run. Check for your responses later.

  45. avatar
    G October 11, 2011 at 3:32 pm #

    Well said! Although we all have frustrations and differences in views of each other, I would prefer a respectful debate with those I differ with or disagree with. As you know, I have not been shy of “calling you out”, when I felt I had a reason to… but we’ve been able to dialog in a way that I feel has been helpful and led to a better understanding of each other’s POV.

    Hostile language invoked towards me immediately makes me hostile in response, so I totally understand your point here. While certain others retain a much higher level of skepticism towards you, I appreciate that you come back, as I do feel that while you can come across as trying to stir up controversy at times, that you do also strive to provide a sincere and educational insight into what drives your political viewpoints and perspective and that we are often able to reach a healthy medium of understandably agreeing to disagree.

    charo: As soon as I saw resident troll, I really didn’t care to read what you wrote. When you begin with an insult, the motivation simply is not there.

    Yes, thoughout history, there has always been and likely will always be a few that have way more wealth at the top.

    The issue is really the level of disparity gap that exists between that top and the rest of the population. It is ALWAYS bad when that gap becomes too great and the concentration at the top is too disproportional to the rest of the base. That level of inequity has always led to an unstable totalitarian structure that eventually topples…often with a lot of damage in its wake.

    There will always be rich, there will always be some poor. What is best for any system is to have a strong and healthy middle and as fair and equitable system for earned upward mobility. That is where America was during our biggest and best boom time – post WWII and that is the equilibrium towards which we need to strive to return and build from.

    charo: It seems that under every system, a few end up with the wealth. [The best scenario from the past is the first group of Christians who gave everything for the common good. I can't remember the passage from the Bible, but one couple who did not hand over either all or sum of the funds from the sale of property and died immediately. Just inconsequential trivia to you I am sure.]
    I think it is good to draw attention to the economic demise of our country. Not every tea partier is an immoral boob nor is every Wall Street protestor. Our country has to be changed through the election process. The people with the most money usually win the elections.

  46. avatar
    G October 11, 2011 at 3:43 pm #

    I do give credit where credit is due. The rapid success of their movement to turn into political victory, especially at a national level is definitely impressive. I can aslo understand the argument you made for taking over an existing political structure, due to the stranglehold of our two-party dynamic, over an “independent route” and also credit them for pretty much taking over the GOP.

    However, I disagree with the perception that these folks were really “outsiders” to begin with – outside of a few libertarians and some other anti-government types they’ve brought along, the overall Tea Party pretty much seems to be made up of people who have just about always voted GOP anyways. So what we’re really dealing with is a faction of the base that was always there that has gained increased power to the point where they actually threaten the moneyed establishment.

    So yes, I do appreciate that they are using the process and give fair and deserved kudos to their success on that level.

    That being said, I retain the right to disagree with their agenda, messaging and actions and to also feel that their successful movement has caused more harm to this country’s future than good. I also remain critical that they claim to be about economic reform, but have mainly taken actions to oppose viable economic reforms and have put more effort into pushing various conservative social agendas into law that I am against and feel restrict individual and group rights & freedoms. What I’ve seen so far from them has only turned me more and more off to their message and against their further rise to power.

    charo: They got some people elected. They had to do it through the Republican party because they could not win as Independents. They are using the process. Maybe you don’t agree with how they want to fix the problem but they are using the system to make an attempt.

  47. avatar
    Scientist October 11, 2011 at 3:52 pm #

    G: The best thing that could happen here is for this nascent Occupy Wall Street movement to be joined by that segment of true grass-roots individuals that really did join the Tea Party because their main concern was the economic crisis and didn’t see any other outlet available to them.

    G-There may be some individuals who identify as Tea Party who are as you suggest, but I think you are being overly charitable to the movement as a whole. I happened to have CNBC on when Rick Santelli did his rant from the trading floor in Chicago. Now, I had watched Santelli all through TARP and TALF and the several $ trillion that had been used to support the financial institutions and I don’t recall a peep of protest. In fact, he cheered the fact that the financial system was not going to collapse (for the record, I supported saving the financial system, as flawed as it is). But all of a sudden, when Obama proposed a paltry $ 30 or 40 billion to reduce the principal on mortgages and keep people in their homes, this was unconscionable. So, while some in the Tea Party may feel differently, the leadership and the Republicans they elected want an unregulated financial system and oppose anything that might inconvenience the richest members of society.

    G: There will always be rich, there will always be some poor. What is best for any system is to have a strong and healthy middle and as fair and equitable system for earned upward mobility. That is where America was during our biggest and best boom time – post WWII and that is the equilibrium towards which we need to strive to return and build from.

    Now THAT, I agree with 100%.

  48. avatar
    G October 11, 2011 at 3:52 pm #

    It was only ever a quasi-grass roots movement. Many of the people at the local level may be grass roots, but nearly all of the money and advertising to put on the gatherings or get their people elected came from well organized and pre-established sources that were ginning and propping up the movement from the get go. Yes, the Koch Brothers and all their “think tanks”, Fox News, Glenn Beck, etc. All well documented. Without their money and media attention, the movement would never have grown as quickly as it did and would not have been able to achieve its national election success.

    These big money interests in many cases merely stirred up and directed an existing angst within a set of the conservative base that felt disheartened and marginalized up to that point and gave them the resources, backing and talking points to coalesce around. They have been manipulated and directed from the outset. The only difference is that they have been so successful as a result that they are pretty much at a point of power where they are beyond their “handlers” control… and yes, I do think they will eventually turn and bite the invisible hands that fed them…as well they should. I just don’t want any angry and propaganda-addled mob harming the rest of our society in the process…which is what I’ve seen their effect to be so far.

    charo: There were people who put an abundance of effort into the movement. Because it was a grassroots effort, you won’t see the same kind of progress as with, let’s say a Mitt Romney machine, or Team Obama.

  49. avatar
    charo October 11, 2011 at 4:21 pm #

    G:
    It was only ever a quasi-grass roots movement.Many of the people at the local level may be grass roots, but nearly all of the money and advertising to put on the gatherings or get their people elected came from well organized and pre-established sources that were ginning and propping up the movement from the get go.Yes, the Koch Brothers and all their “think tanks”, Fox News, Glenn Beck, etc.All well documented.Without their money and media attention, the movement would never have grown as quickly as it did and would not have been able to achieve its national election success.

    These big money interests in many cases merely stirred up and directed an existing angst within a set of the conservative base that felt disheartened and marginalized up to that point and gave them the resources, backing and talking points to coalesce around. They have been manipulated and directed from the outset.The only difference is that they have been so successful as a result that they are pretty much at a point of power where they are beyond their “handlers” control… and yes, I do think they will eventually turn and bite the invisible hands that fed them…as well they should.I just don’t want any angry and propaganda-addled mob harming the rest of our society in the process…which is what I’ve seen their effect to be so far.

    Just a quick response here: why would they (the big money interests) want to put tea party candidates in power? Why not put the money behind the people who they supposedly already manipulate?

    In between events here…

  50. avatar
    G October 11, 2011 at 4:24 pm #

    That is definitely part of his “Tea Party” populist appeal. How well that can translate into getting votes remains to be seen. The main reason for his surge is that right now, the drive in the GOP primary is looking for the “other than Romney” candidate that the “socially conservative” base can rally behind.

    Although that conservative base is known for wanting to quickly rally behind and settle on a candidate, that has not been able to happen in this cycle, because the existing field is so weak and each one comes with their own set of large flaws. All these meteoric rises and falls (Cain then Bachmann then Perry then Cain again) are due to that desperate need to want to lock onto and back a single anti-Romney socially conservative pick. Cain can remain in serious contention, at least into Iowa and perhaps through SC – as long as Perry doesn’t surge back too much, as Romney is so surprisingly weak in support at the moment that the field can actually support being split between TWO contending “socially conservative” alternatives to him and still have a chance for beating him out in many of the early states.

    Bachmann has a very uphill road to get back into that mix and her staffing/finance problems are dangerously close to eliminating her all together. Santorum needs a game changer to put him even into that mix…and that’s a long shot at best. Newt & Paul have some appeal to those dynamics…but really are alternatives practically in categories all on their own. They’ve definitely been capitalizing on getting a surprising increase in support due to the weakness of the “social conservative” candidates in play… so they benefit from the unsettledness here, but are really factors to themselves.

    Cain’s campaign has showed some progress in claiming to be building a ground game and ramp up staffing in most of the early Primary states…but his campaign Q3 finance status is still unreported and his existing staff are fairly inexperienced. Also, their insistance on pursuing a “book tour” strategy at this point, instead of capitalizing on the poll gains and really building their ground game in Iowa is concerning. If he wants to be a real contender, he needs to seriously compete to try to win in all the early Primary states and that takese a real dedicated infrastructure and dedicated local county “stump speech” schedule… It remains to be seen if he can adapt to pull that off.

    Re: His “9-9-9″ plan. It is just a slogan and unworkable / unimplementable at this stage and in the theoretical imaginings of “what if” scenarios, I can quite confidently predict that anything that would be implemented by him in such a scenario would end up looking nothing like “9-9-9″ in result.

    I do agree that the old ways are extremely broken and that new ideas and solutions are needed to fix the tax structure. Nothing wrong with floating new ideas and even radical changes. Successful brainstorming is all about starting with such an approach. However, you quickly evaluate those new ideas and reject those that fail to hold up to scrutiny…and I’d say that rejecting his “9-9-9″ plan as unworkable is merely the next step of a realistic process.

    If he wants to be taken seriously, he needs to now go back to the drawing board and either modify the plan to something plausible enough to consider for further evaluation or scrap it and come up with something altogether different. Hey, he claims to be a business man, and that is the process of how we do such things in business. On that, I do know what I’m talking about, because I’ve been doing and leading those kinds of activities in business areas over the past 2 decades.

    charo: I think that is another reason for Cain’s increasing popularity: he is not part of the establishment. I think he can be convinced to modify his 9-9-9 plan. He is trying to offer a new idea because the old ways are not working.

  51. avatar
    G October 11, 2011 at 4:32 pm #

    As do I. Personally, if I was at an event with that type of fully-repetetive style of chanting, I’d leave, even if I supported the general idea of the cause. Just not for me.

    charo: Okay, but I still find this particular style eerie.

    Just as this story is gaining some reporting, I’d think that would too. The media loves controversy and that is really what drives what they report. However, I think the Tea Party event dynamic is much different that what we saw in Atlanta or in how a long-term “sit in” movement operates and as such, makes it less likely for such things to crop up.

    Most of the Tea Party events have been quite organized and structured in advance and have a pre-listed set of speakers and timeline for the entire event. When you have an organized and pre-set agenda and a fixed schedule for an event, you are much less likely to have any situation crop up where some new speaker is introduced…and if it does, it wouldn’t be vetted via an impromptu crowd vote, it would just be run by the event coordiator/organizer to become a last minute addition.

    charo: Do you really believe that if this were a tea party event and the crowd reached a consensus that the Congressmen should not be allowed to speak, it would not make major headlines?

  52. avatar
    misha October 11, 2011 at 4:43 pm #

    charo: I think he can be convinced to modify his 9-9-9 plan.

    I completely agree. I’ve contacted his staff, to change it to a 6-6-6 plan. I also pointed out to his staff that god backwards, spells dog. I also made suggestions about their pizza recipe, so it doesn’t taste like cardboard.

    No response so far. They’re too busy bashing anti-christ Obama.

  53. avatar
    G October 11, 2011 at 4:44 pm #

    Simple answer – they cynically think they can continue to control and manipulate them as they always have. They will put out their carefully crafted buzz-word agenda and expect their faithful to swallow it hook, line and sinker and get in line. It had worked for them pretty well up to that point. There is obviously some concern now in play and you see the “establishment moneyed” class a bit uncomfortable with the results, particularly how the debt ceiling debacle was handled… that’s why those folks are putting huge money into backing their candidate – Romney…and to some extent Rick Perry, who has been a very a loyal stooge for the moneyed class in TX. Look at where Rove & all the Super-PACs are putting their money efforts now. They are pretty much Romeny’s “base”.

    Bottom line, they will continue to pay “lip service” in public to the Tea Party, because these are folks that have always been an important and large part of the overall GOP base…so they need their votes in the end. They will back Tea Party candidates as a simple matter of numbers, so that their side gets turnout and a person with an (R) in office. However, they will put their primary dollars first into getting an “establishment” candidate in place first, if they can.

    charo: Just a quick response here: why would they (the big money interests) want to put tea party candidates in power? Why not put the money behind the people who they supposedly already manipulate? In between events here…

  54. avatar
    Keith October 11, 2011 at 4:57 pm #

    charo: [The best scenario from the past is the first group of Christians who gave everything for the common good. I can't remember the passage from the Bible, but one couple who did not hand over either all or sum of the funds from the sale of property and died immediately. Just inconsequential trivia to you I am sure.]

    Commies!

  55. avatar
    Keith October 11, 2011 at 4:59 pm #

    charo: [The best scenario from the past is the first group of Christians who gave everything for the common good. I can't remember the passage from the Bible, but one couple who did not hand over either all or sum of the funds from the sale of property and died immediately. Just inconsequential trivia to you I am sure.]

    Commies!

    G: It was only ever a quasi-grass roots movement. Many of the people at the local level may be grass roots, but nearly all of the money and advertising to put on the gatherings or get their people elected came from well organized and pre-established sources that were ginning and propping up the movement from the get go. Yes, the Koch Brothers and all their “think tanks”, Fox News, Glenn Beck, etc. All well documented. Without their money and media attention, the movement would never have grown as quickly as it did and would not have been able to achieve its national election success.

    Faux promoted it like a rock station promotes a rock concert.

  56. avatar
    Majority Will October 11, 2011 at 5:40 pm #

    misha: I completely agree. I’ve contacted his staff, to change it to a 6-6-6 plan. I also pointed out to his staff that god backwards, spells dog. I also made suggestions about their pizza recipe, so it doesn’t taste like cardboard.

    No response so far. They’re too busy bashing anti-christ Obama.

    :-D

  57. avatar
    Majority Will October 11, 2011 at 7:06 pm #

    misha: I completely agree. I’ve contacted his staff, to change it to a 6-6-6 plan. I also pointed out to his staff that god backwards, spells dog. I also made suggestions about their pizza recipe, so it doesn’t taste like cardboard.

    No response so far. They’re too busy bashing anti-christ Obama.

    In one of the Republican debates, Herman Cain quoted a poet who said
    “Life can be a challenge, life can seem impossible, but it’s never
    easy when there’s so much on the line”.

    Herman’s quote is a lyric from “The Power of One”, a song from Pokémon: The Movie 2000.

    This wasn’t the first time Cain has used this quote. He has pulled up this deeply prophetic wisdom at least three times before.

    Pikachu was not available for comment.

  58. avatar
    charo October 11, 2011 at 7:13 pm #

    G: Simple answer – they cynically think they can continue to control and manipulate them as they always have.

    But these are new people that have been elected. Old seats were lost. Why replace them, unless they weren’t towing the line anymore?

  59. avatar
    Scientist October 11, 2011 at 7:51 pm #

    charo: But these are new people that have been elected. Old seats were lost. Why replace them, unless they weren’t towing the line anymore?

    Almost all the seats that changed hands in 2010 had been held by Democrats after the sweep in 2008 (along with a few Republicans who occasionally broke with the party line who lost in primaries). The current Republicans in Congress make Ronald Reagan look like a Social Democrat. You don’t have to take my word for it, you can read any of a number of former Reagan aides like Bruce Bartlett or David Stockman. Their contempt for the current crew is far deeper than anyone posting here.

    The 2010 election was supposed to be about “jobs, jobs, jobs”. Well, the jobs numbers from 2010 may not have been great, but 2011 makes them look like a boom was going on. So far the current Congress has passed a grand total of 0 bills to create jobs. Not to mention that holding the debt ceiling hostage cratered the economy (again, you don’t have to take my word for it- check your 401k).

  60. avatar
    G October 11, 2011 at 10:12 pm #

    We’re only less than half-way through the first cycle of these “new” candidates. Let’s see how their own primaries shape up and then how the money is allocated in the general. Obviously, for the big picture, the simple dynamic is that the GOP wants to retain seats as GOP and not give them over to the other side. Once you get to a general, they have no choice but to get behind whoever is the chosen GOP candidate to not lose the seat.

    Because the GOP base has moved to more of a Tea Party mentality, there is risk of getting anyone new who is more “establishment” or “moderate” to risk their own conservative career running against that candidate…the climate is simply not in the establishment’s favor. The establishment doesn’t have to like it…but they can’t risk being publicly against it. They have simply painted themselves into a corner and can only hope to control the message.

    charo: But these are new people that have been elected. Old seats were lost. Why replace them, unless they weren’t towing the line anymore?

  61. avatar
    Lupin October 12, 2011 at 2:13 am #

    Scientist: The 2010 election was supposed to be about “jobs, jobs, jobs”. Well, the jobs numbers from 2010 may not have been great, but 2011 makes them look like a boom was going on. So far the current Congress has passed a grand total of 0 bills to create jobs. Not to mention that holding the debt ceiling hostage cratered the economy (again, you don’t have to take my word for it- check your 401k).

    I think the best commenter online on the subject has been Atrios (and Krugman, of course), who have pointed out time and again that both parties have in effect supported the interests of Wall Street and the elites, and done didley squat for the working class.

    (In case that didn’t came through before, I greatly admire your OccupyXYZ movements and hope that they achieve some results.)

    To think that Obama or his people could be secretly manipulating the Occupy movement, when in fact much of what they blame lies at his doorstep, strikes me as ridiculous.

    The UK has been horribly managed and since they’re ahead of your curve, you just need to look at England, and see your future (economically speaking). It’s pretty bleak for the working man.

  62. avatar
    misha October 12, 2011 at 2:33 am #

    Lupin: you just need to look at England, and see your future (economically speaking). It’s pretty bleak for the working man.

    Those jobs are gone forever. The internet and satellites, has moved thousands of jobs. The AP has moved its caption desk to Singapore. When I needed help from Verizon DSL, the help desk was in Manila. VOIP has made the cost of telephone calls next to nothing.

    True stories: Instant messaging and VOIP were invented by Israelis.

  63. avatar
    Bovril October 12, 2011 at 6:04 am #

    Tut tut Lupin,

    You should be careful before casting aspertions on Albion Perfide (forgive the spelling),

    Not coming from a country that still revels and actively supports a named peasant (French politician wordmng not mine) class and “La France Profonde” through systermatic gaming and fraud of the CAP.

    Frances systemic economic issues are at least as bad if not worse than Englands’….

  64. avatar
    Keith October 12, 2011 at 6:42 am #

    misha: True stories: Instant messaging and VOIP were invented by Israelis.

    and WiFi by Australians.

  65. avatar
    Scientist October 12, 2011 at 7:40 am #

    Lupin, Bovril: While you guys are re-fighting the Hundred Years War, let me say that the issue of jobs in the modern economy goes way beyond any country and any political party. Some simple #s:

    The iconic company of the post-war era, General Motors, had, at its peak in 1979, about 650,000 US employees and 900,000 world-wide. Even in its shrunken state today it has almost 70,000 employees in the US.

    The iconic company of our era, Google, has fewer than 25,000 employees total.

    All the wonderful technologies we all love, the Googles, Apples, Facebooks put together will probably not even come close to the number of jobs that GM alone produced.

    So where are the jobs going to come from? Selling Godfather’s Pizzas? Well, with all due respect to Mr Cain, he really didn’t create jobs, because, since people can eat only so much pizza, every slice he sold was simply a slice that some other (better) pizzeria didn’t sell. Only new products and services really create jobs, and the virtual cyber products and services that we are creating today just don’t require that many humans to run.

  66. avatar
    Lupin October 12, 2011 at 8:07 am #

    I’m not an economist and I’m not going to pretend I can play one on TV either! :-)

    Born in the 1950s, I remain a dedicated Keynesian (“my” economist was JK Galbraith). I despise Milton Friedman and the Chicago School, which played havoc on the developing countries, and is at least partially responsible for the frame of the policies which are currently impacting the US and the UK.

    I feel the current “austerity” is stupid and dangerous and what we need instead is a new version of FDR’s New Deal. In fact, since the UK has embarked on its current policies, economic growth has become nil and the deficit increased, while the people are suffering.

    Atrios has pointed out time and again that “rescuing” banks, or countries (like Greece), is mostly transferring public money into the hands of a few and making the poor suffer; instead, Argentina in the 90s and more recently Iceland have taken completely opposite tacks and succeeded rather well.

    I don’t know if the euro will survive 2012; certainly the financial elites in Wall Street and the City of London have been gunning against “Europe” for a decade (Tony Blair certainly did everything he could to wreck it) and they may well prevail.

    It is true (as Bovril correctly pointed out) that the EU’s Common Agricultural Policy has been a boon for French farmers, but generally the net transfer of wealth has not been to France’s or Germany’s benefit. In other words, France and especially Germany have “carried” the EU, which is becoming increasingly difficult to do when faced with the repeated attacks from Wall Street and the City.

    In both countries, however, the political will of the people is vastly different from what it is in the UK and the US. Whereas in these countries, the two major parties have substantially identical economic policies (that seems the be the case between Blair/Brown/Cameron and certainly Obama has carried on Bush’s economic policies), in Germany and the UK, the ideological divide is far more pronounced, and the “working class” still carries quite a lot of clout. The surprising % of votes reached by altermondialist Montembourg in the recent Socialist primaries last week is only a recent indication of this.

    I wish we had a proper Keynesian platform and “frame of reference” amongst our Socialist leaders in France — but we don’t. As Atrios said, it would have been more effective for your Government to add $10,000 to everyone’s bank balance than give billions to the banks — but at least we’re getting there. Perhaps you will too, as the US has shown in the past it could negotiate very sharp turns in policies very quickly (far more quickly than we can).

    In a feeble attempt to remain on topic, I’ll point out to Ron Suskind’s recent masterful book CONFIDENCE MEN which should convince anyone with an ounce of sense that Obama is anything but a socialist. Hence the problem.

  67. avatar
    misha October 12, 2011 at 8:18 am #

    Scientist: While you guys are re-fighting the Hundred Years War

    How long is that in dog years?

  68. avatar
    misha October 12, 2011 at 8:51 am #

    charo: I think he can be convinced to modify his 9-9-9 plan.

    misha: I’ve contacted his staff, to change it to a 6-6-6 plan.

    Stranger than fiction dept.: Demented occult practitioner Michele Bachmann dropped a zinger into tonight’s Bloomberg/Washington Post Republican presidential debate, telling Herman Cain that if he were to turn his “9-9-9″ plan upside down, “I think the Devil’s in the details.”
    http://gawker.com/5848895/michele-bachmann-summons-satan-during-gop-debate

  69. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 12, 2011 at 8:56 am #

    If anything, the occupy Wall Street movement happened now because folks realize that Obama isn’t bringing the change they voted for in 2008.

    Lupin: To think that Obama or his people could be secretly manipulating the Occupy movement, when in fact much of what they blame lies at his doorstep, strikes me as ridiculous.

  70. avatar
    Lupin October 12, 2011 at 9:16 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: If anything, the occupy Wall Street movement happened now because folks realize that Obama isn’t bringing the change they voted for in 2008.

    I couldn’t agree more. I recently saw a ytoutube video of a speech by Elizabeth Warren (I wasn’t aware of her before) and I think she gets it totally.

  71. avatar
    jayHG October 12, 2011 at 11:31 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    If anything, the occupy Wall Street movement happened now because folks realize that Obama isn’t bringing the change they voted for in 2008.

    President Obama can’t walk on water. It bothers me that folks forget where the country was going when he got into office. I challenge any of you to do better than he has done and I also challenge each of you to check out Obama’s Achievement Center.

    My point is that with each president I’ve voted for, I’ve somehow always realized that I’m not going to get all that I want WHEN I want it.

    President Obama brought about the change he has been able to with an uncooperative group of republicans whose goal since 2008 is to try to make sure he is not re-elected. Helping this country move forward is not a GOP goal or even on the radar. This is sad, but true. Instead, here you are, Dr. Conspiracy, saying something that, frankly, I’ve read on free republic.

    If you think that the republican party cares about the masses, you’re mistaken.

    Thank God that I believe the presidebt will be re-elected. Having that racist bunch of GOP folks running things is scary……….not just for me, but for the masses. This group does not care about the country as a whole, but for a select few.

  72. avatar
    Bovril October 12, 2011 at 12:19 pm #

    misha: How long is that in dog years?

    The best part of the English and the French continuing the 1000 year Love/Hate relationship is when anyone else (usually the Germans) thinks they can join in the game.

    At this point the English and French will band together in (temporary) solidarity and roundly mock, harass then ignore the parvenu interloper before returning to the cozy certitude of the game.

    Just like many a dysfunctional marriage, the pair are incapable of living either with or without each other…….. 8-)

    To return to the economic side of the story, due to the political system in the UK, its strength and weakness is that the government in power, so long as it maintains its majority, can implement any tax and economic policy it pleases.

    Seperately, unlike the rest of it’s non “Anglo-Saxon” EU partners, tax avoidance by the masses is not the inherent part of the economic climate it is elsewhere.

    As such, from a global economic perspective, the markets have a factored view of the UK economy that it, along with Germany are likely the last countries to default on its public sector debt.

    Now, that is not to say the current economic plan for the UK is the right one, it is very arguably not the optimum one.

  73. avatar
    Scientist October 12, 2011 at 1:15 pm #

    jayHG: President Obama can’t walk on water

    Really? I thought he walked to Hawaii from Kenya as a newborn.

  74. avatar
    Daniel October 12, 2011 at 1:29 pm #

    Scientist: Really?I thought he walked to Hawaii from Kenya as a newborn.

    That’s ridiculous.

    Everyone knows he actually flew from Kenya to Hawaii….

    … on wings his father fashioned from feathers and wax.

    Little known fact; Newborn baby Obama was actually headed for mainland USA from Kenya on his wings of wax, but when crossing the Hawaiian chain, flying high over Mauna Kea, he flew too close to the sun and the wax melted, causing him to make a forced landing on the roof of the Kapiolani Medical Center, where he snuck into the maternity ward and pretended to be a newborn.

  75. avatar
    Sef October 12, 2011 at 1:47 pm #

    Scientist: Really?I thought he walked to Hawaii from Kenya as a newborn.

    I heard he surfed all that way on the crest of a tsunami wave.

  76. avatar
    G October 12, 2011 at 2:17 pm #

    I agree with both of your assessments and look at it this way. A President alone cannot effect the change that is needed in this country without a massive amount of support behind him and most importantly, that includes the masses getting off their collective @sses and starting to participate and do their fair share to bring change about.

    I look at the OWS movement as more of a desperately needed awakening amongst a segment of the population that if they want to see change, then they need to find a way to finally actively participate in bringing that about. I see it as a missing piece of the puzzle that was needed all along.

    Dr. Conspiracy: If anything, the occupy Wall Street movement happened now because folks realize that Obama isn’t bringing the change they voted for in 2008.

    jayHG: President Obama can’t walk on water. It bothers me that folks forget where the country was going when he got into office. I challenge any of you to do better than he has done and I also challenge each of you to check out Obama’s Achievement Center.
    My point is that with each president I’ve voted for, I’ve somehow always realized that I’m not going to get all that I want WHEN I want it.
    President Obama brought about the change he has been able to with an uncooperative group of republicans whose goal since 2008 is to try to make sure he is not re-elected. Helping this country move forward is not a GOP goal or even on the radar. This is sad, but true. Instead, here you are, Dr. Conspiracy, saying something that, frankly, I’ve read on free republic.
    If you think that the republican party cares about the masses, you’re mistaken.
    Thank God that I believe the presidebt will be re-elected. Having that racist bunch of GOP folks running things is scary……….not just for me, but for the masses. This group does not care about the country as a whole, but for a select few.

  77. avatar
    misha October 12, 2011 at 2:49 pm #

    Thrifty: Thanks again for crapping all over America and reminding us how superior you believe your nation to be, as you are so fond of doing.

    I challenge France to do better than this:

    Florida’s Governor Declares War on Useless Degrees

    Florida’s comically unpopular governor, Rick Scott, has decided to pick another new, arbitrary fight: This time with anthropology majors! And psychology majors, and really all liberal arts/social science majors, whom he believes his state university system subsidizes for no good reason.

    “If I’m going to take money from a citizen to put into education then I’m going to take that money to create jobs,” Scott said. “So I want that money to go to degrees where people can get jobs in this state. Is it a vital interest of the state to have more anthropologists? I don’t think so.”
    http://gawker.com/5849076/floridas-governor-declares-war-on-useless-degrees
    and
    http://htpolitics.com/2011/10/10/rick-scott-wants-to-shift-university-funding-away-from-some-majors/

    Suck on THAT France! Ha! All you Frenchies know how to make bread, but you couldn’t win in Vietnam like we did. You drive around in a Citroën, but WE have Chrysler. That’s how a car company should be run. You Frenchies travel between cities on the commie TGV, but we travel in a Hummer.

    The commies who run France have universal socialized healthcare. We tell them to die like a man. That’s the American Way.

    Tea Party Debate Audience Cheered Idea of Letting Uninsured Patients Die

    Blitzer followed up by asking “Congressman, are you saying that society should just let him die?” to which a number of audience members shouted “Yeah!”
    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/09/tea-party-debate-audience-cheered-idea-of-letting-uninsured-patients-die/

  78. avatar
    jayHG October 12, 2011 at 3:44 pm #

    Scientist: Really?I thought he walked to Hawaii from Kenya as a newborn.

    tee hee

  79. avatar
    jayHG October 12, 2011 at 3:44 pm #

    Daniel: That’s ridiculous.

    Everyone knows he actually flew from Kenya to Hawaii….

    … on wings his father fashioned from feathers and wax.

    Little known fact; Newborn baby Obama was actually headed for mainland USA from Kenya on his wings of wax, but when crossing the Hawaiian chain, flying high over Mauna Kea, he flew too close to the sun and the wax melted, causing him to make a forced landing on the roof of the Kapiolani Medical Center, where he snuck into the maternity ward and pretended to be a newborn.

    Really big tee hee….

  80. avatar
    misha October 12, 2011 at 3:52 pm #

    Thrifty: Thanks again for crapping all over America and reminding us how superior you believe your nation to be, as you are so fond of doing.

    Americans know history better than those Frenchies:

    Perry: ‘We Fought the American Revolution in the 16th Century’

    “And then it was actually the reason that we fought the [American] Revolution in the 16th century — was to get away from that kind of onerous crown, if you will.”
    http://gawker.com/5848938/rick-perry-we-fought-the-american-revolution-in-the-16th-century

    Take THAT France!

  81. avatar
    misha October 12, 2011 at 4:40 pm #

    Thrifty: Thanks again for crapping all over America and reminding us how superior you believe your nation to be, as you are so fond of doing.

    I’m so tired of hearing how stupid Americans are. We know how to drive drunk, with a loaded handgun. Show me a Frenchman who can do that.

    Tennessee’s Guns in Bars’ Lawmaker Arrested for Drunk Driving with Gun

    Now this is just too easy, but here goes: Curry Todd, a state lawmaker in Tennessee who sponsored a 2009 law allowing people to carry handguns in bars and restaurants provided they don’t drink, was arrested last night and “charged with DUI and possession of a handgun while under the influence.” Seems like the Republican party has finally found a decent presidential candidate here.

    He allegedly failed a roadside sobriety test and refused to take a Breathalyzer test. A loaded .38-caliber gun was found in a holster stuffed between the driver seat and the center console.
    http://gawker.com/5849110/tennessees-guns-in-bars-lawmaker-arrested-for-drunk-driving-with-gun

  82. avatar
    misha October 12, 2011 at 5:30 pm #

    Thrifty: Thanks again for crapping all over America and reminding us how superior you believe your nation to be, as you are so fond of doing.

    I know exactly how you feel. Schools in France never tell children how humans and dinosaurs walked together, and that is simply disgusting how they are denied the truth. People in France go to cooking school, instead of bible school. That’s what happens when you have socialists and commies running your country.

    Palin Claimed Dinosaurs And People Coexisted

    Soon after Sarah Palin was elected mayor of the foothill town of Wasilla, Alaska, she startled a local music teacher by insisting in casual conversation that men and dinosaurs coexisted on an Earth created 6,000 years ago — about 65 million years after scientists say most dinosaurs became extinct — the teacher said.

    In a widely-circulated interview, Matt Damon said of Palin, “I need to know if she really think that dinosaurs were here 4000 years ago. I want to know that, I really do. Because she’s gonna have the nuclear codes.”
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/28/palin-claimed-dinosaurs-a_n_130012.html

  83. avatar
    misha October 12, 2011 at 5:56 pm #

    Thrifty: Thanks again for crapping all over America and reminding us how superior you believe your nation to be, as you are so fond of doing.

    France coddles criminals. We show ‘em: Brad Drake, a Republican, filed a bill Tuesday to eliminate lethal injection and bring back executions by electrocution or firing squad. “We still have Old Sparky. And if that doesn’t suit the criminal, then we will provide them a .45 caliber lead cocktail instead,” he said in a press release. According to the Florida Current, the idea came to him in a local Waffle House. “If it were up to me we would just throw them off the Sunshine Skyway bridge and be done with it,” Drake told the Current.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/12/brad-drake-florida-death-penalty_n_1007540.html

    France has a bunch of philosophers wearing berets, in coffee shops. We have the Waffle House. That’s where real people go.

  84. avatar
    misha October 13, 2011 at 10:23 am #

    Thrifty: Thanks again for crapping all over America and reminding us how superior you believe your nation to be, as you are so fond of doing.

    I completely agree. Trains are used by godless commies. Americans who have religion, faith, and believe in a Supreme Being, drive Hummers.

    Ann Coulter: “The ethic of conservation is the explicit abnegation of man’s dominion over the Earth. The lower species are here for our use. God said so: Go forth, be fruitful, multiply, and rape the planet — it’s yours. That’s our job: drilling, mining and stripping. Sweaters are the anti-Biblical view. Big gas-guzzling cars with phones and CD players and wet bars — that’s the Biblical view.”

    It says so in the Bible: “Thou shalt shun trains, for those whose god is public transportation shalt be smitten. I, the Lord, command thee to go to thy neighbor in a Hummer. And if thy neighbor refuses, he shall be stoned.”