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Cold Case Posse appears to have lied

The Maricopa County Sheriff’s office admitted that there was no contact between the Cold Case Posse and the Hawaii Department of Health during its 6-month investigation. That in and of itself seems wholly at odds with a professionally responsible investigation, and it also raises an important question about the basis for a statement  made during the press conference.

Posse leader Mike Zullo said in response to a reporter’s question about Honolulu newspaper birth announcements that list Barack Obama:

Mike Zullo photoI was hoping that one didn’t come up. The birth announcements and that birth registry which is just line items, we have information – not information, we have evidence, and we can prove beyond a doubt, that not only are foreign births registered in those birth announcements, and the line item registrations, we also know and have information – not information, let me correct myself, we have documented evidence of two adopted individuals that were breathing three years prior were listed as newborn infants. It’s not creditable, because it doesn’t tell us anything. We know a birth took place. And, maybe a little homework to clear it up.

The only reasonable way to interpret Mr. Zullo’s words “those birth announcements” is the announcements that appeared in Honolulu newspapers around the time of Barack Obama’s birth – say within a few years when an observation would be relevant. Further the phrase “that birth registry” based on any reasonable standard of relevance would refer to the Department of Health’s birth index from around the time of Barack Obama’s birth in 1961, or a few years around that time.

Now here’s the problem: We know from the testimony of an old-timer Honolulu journalist (CNN interview) that the newspaper announcements, and certainly the birth index (!) came from the Department of Health (or the Health Bureau as it was called back then). The Health Bureau didn’t register foreign births until 1982, see [§338-17.8]  Certificates for children born out of State. So how could it be true that a foreign-born child appeared among the children listed under Health Bureau Statistics in the newspaper or in the birth registry 20 years before the law allowing it was passed?

Zullo claims that he has evidence that foreign births were listed in the newspaper and in the State’s birth index. However, based  on the law that appears to be impossible. Unless the Maricopa County Sheriff’s office discloses what this unspecified evidence is, I think it more likely than not that Zullo lied. I don’t doubt that Zullo believes that such foreign registrations are possible; I think he lied about having any evidence.

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286 Responses to Cold Case Posse appears to have lied

  1. avatar
    BillTheCat March 2, 2012 at 7:40 pm #

    Not surprising – Lieing is the MO of all birthers. Their entire case has been a lie, fed by little lies, adding up to big lies.

    Makes me think of Al Franken’s old book “Lies and Lieing Liars Who Tell Them” – a very apt description of birthers.

  2. avatar
    Thrifty March 2, 2012 at 7:44 pm #

    With the press conference and the ballot challenges and all the uppity birthers we’ve been getting lately, a particular Simpsons quote rattles in my head.

    Judge Schneider: “Mr. Hutz we’ve been in here for four hours. Do you have any evidence at all?”
    Lionel Hutz: “Well, Your Honor. We have plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence. “

  3. avatar
    Arthur March 2, 2012 at 8:01 pm #

    Mr. Zullo’s assertions remind me of those made sixty years ago by a Wisconsin congressman, who claimed, “I have here in my hand a list of 205 list of names that were made known to the Secretary of State as being members of the Communist Party and who nevertheless are still working and shaping policy in the State Department.”

    Zullo’s words should be treated with the same contempt that were given to MCarthy’s.

  4. avatar
    John March 2, 2012 at 8:05 pm #

    Just speculation Doc!

    “We have documented evidence of two adopted individuals that were breathing three years prior were listed as newborn infants.”

    Since you are no privy to internals of the investigation, your accusations are just conjecture or speculation.

    “We know from the testimony of a old-timer Honolulu journalist (CNN interview) that the newspaper announcements, and certainly the birth index (!) came from the Department of Health”

    What SWORN tesitmony Doc? More like hearsay.

  5. avatar
    John March 2, 2012 at 8:09 pm #

    “Unless the Maricopa County Sheriff’s office discloses what this unspecified evidence is”

    As par with an Open Criminal investigation of fraud and forgery, evidence will not be disclosed until the appropriate time.

  6. avatar
    Daniel March 2, 2012 at 8:15 pm #

    John do you actually read what you write before you hit the submit button?

  7. avatar
    donna March 2, 2012 at 8:19 pm #

    the birth index is a bound book and open to the public

    the birth announcements are TOO public knowledge:

    Once inside the library, head downstairs where they keep the microfilm. Obama was born on August 4, 1961, but you’ll want the August 13, 1961 edition of the Honolulu Star-Advertiser, because that’s when the birth announcement appeared. When you’ve loaded up the film, flip to the back pages, to the section of the paper called “Vital Statistic.” This is the record of births, marriages, and deaths provided by the Hawaii Department of Health’s Bureau of Vital Statistics. When you get to Page B-6, scan down the left hand column–there it is, toward the bottom:

    Mr. and Mrs. Barack H. Obama, 6085 Kalanianaole Hwy., son, Aug. 4

    And the competing paper, the Honolulu Star-Bulletin, also published an announcement.

  8. avatar
    John March 2, 2012 at 8:21 pm #

    Statute involves issuing of birth certificates to foreign born. It does not apply to foreign birth registrations in birth announcements. It would appear the statute is misplaced and Doc is just speculating.

  9. avatar
    BillTheCat March 2, 2012 at 8:22 pm #

    Hey John, your side lost another…I dunno…4? 5 cases today? (all dismissed) I’ve lost count.

    Again, I’ll give your words some respect when you manage to eek out a win in front of a judge based on your assertions.

    And again, sorry if I don’t hold my breath while I wait.

  10. avatar
    BillTheCat March 2, 2012 at 8:24 pm #

    John: More like hearsay.

    Funny you should bring up hearsay, considering that is what the Sherriff’s entire case he presented yesterday was based on. You guys are pro’s at that.

  11. avatar
    John March 2, 2012 at 8:29 pm #

    Obama better hope that a ballot challenge doesn’t reach a merit hearing. Sheriff Arpaio’s report is pretty daming as it is product of an official, legal and recognizable investigative body.

    “so.I decided to utilize my cold case posse, volunteers, to investigate the situation at noexpense to the taxpayers. I repeat, no expense to the taxpayers. The cold case posse has received much criminal training in investigations from my office andagreed to take on the challenge. The posse reports directly to the office of theelected sheriff, per the Arizona constitution, consisting of former police officers,attorneys, who worked side by side for six months investigating this matter”

  12. avatar
    Brian March 2, 2012 at 8:32 pm #

    The Hawaii statute 338-18 does not allow the release of birth record information to law enforcement for a law enforcement investigation.

    “Unless the Maricopa County Sheriff’s office discloses what this unspecified evidence is, I think it more likely than not that Zullo lied.”

    All evidence in an ongoing law enforcement iinvestigation is not normally released during the investigation. This was a preliminarty report.

    The real question that goes unanswered is, where are the microfilm file records at the National Archives for immigration into the US from August 1, through August 7, 1961. They are conveniently missing. They could have shown that Barack Obama was a foreign immigrant.

    Then there is the issue of the alleged fraudulent Selective Service form with the 2 digit date stamp when a 4 digit stamp is required by law.

    Obama remains an enigma.

  13. avatar
    Daniel March 2, 2012 at 8:34 pm #

    John: Obama better hope that a ballot challenge doesn’t reach a merit hearing. Sheriff Arpaio’s report is pretty daming as it is product of an official, legal and recognizable investigative body.

    You willing to put money on that prediction, Zippy? ‘Cause I’m sure as hell willing to bet the farm against it.

  14. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 2, 2012 at 8:34 pm #

    Your mindless vacuous replies are usually at least understandable, but not this time What pray tell is the difference between registering the foreign born and a foreign birth registration?

    And what do you mean that the “statue is misplaced?” You’re making even less sense than usual.

    I swear I do not understand why I put up with you.

    John: Statute involves issuing of birth certificates to foreign born. It does not apply to foreign birth registrations in birth announcements. It would appear the statute is misplaced and Doc is just speculating.

  15. avatar
    Daniel March 2, 2012 at 8:35 pm #

    Brian: They are conveniently missing.

    How do we know they are missing?

  16. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 2, 2012 at 8:36 pm #

    BTW, Scott/Bernadine has gone into nasty attack mode, and I am deleting those comments.

    I’ve let the birthers have their romp, but now it’s time to impose a little sanity on the discussion.

  17. avatar
    G March 2, 2012 at 8:36 pm #

    I strongly agree! Well said and a very apt analogy…

    Arthur: Mr. Zullo’s assertions remind me of those made sixty years ago by a Wisconsin congressman, who claimed, “I have here in my hand a list of 205 list of names that were made known to the Secretary of State as being members of the Communist Party and who nevertheless are still working and shaping policy in the State Department.”
    Zullo’s words should be treated with the same contempt that were given to MCarthy’s.

  18. avatar
    Arthur March 2, 2012 at 8:37 pm #

    John: Obama better hope that a ballot challenge doesn’t reach a merit hearing. Sheriff Arpaio’s report is pretty daming as it is product of an official, legal and recognizable investigative body.

    I don’t know what Obama is hoping, but I’d kind of like to see Sheriff Joe’s report be offered in court in order to see how it would stand up to legal standards of evidence.

  19. avatar
    Daniel March 2, 2012 at 8:37 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    BTW, Scott/Bernadine has gone into nasty attack mode, and I am deleting those comments.

    I’ve let the birthers have their romp, but now it’s time to impose a little sanity on the discussion.

    You could always suggest he voice his concerns on RC Radio ;-)

  20. avatar
    Scientist March 2, 2012 at 8:38 pm #

    John: Obama better hope that a ballot challenge doesn’t reach a merit hearing.

    They have-Georgia, Indiana, Illinois, etc.

    The way the Republicans are going with their buddy Limbaugh pissing off everyone but 80 year old white males, Obama doesn’t even need to be on the ballot to win.

    You should read the court decision today from Georgia-there is no authority to remove a party-endorsed candidate from the ballot. If the Republicans wanted Schwarzenegger on the ballot, he would be there. Then, if he won, it would be up to Congress. You simply cannot win, John. You should try to find something more useful to do with your life. Try crochet…

  21. avatar
    Daniel March 2, 2012 at 8:38 pm #

    Arthur: I don’t know what Obama is hoping, but I’d kind of like to see Sheriff Joe’s report be offered in court in order to see how it would stand up to legal standards of evidence.

    I do so hope some fool decides to offer it as evidence.

  22. avatar
    Scientist March 2, 2012 at 8:41 pm #

    Brian: They could have shown that Barack Obama was a foreign immigrant.

    His mother was a US citizen, so he would be a citizen regardless of where he was born.

  23. avatar
    donna March 2, 2012 at 8:41 pm #

    “The real question that goes unanswered is, where are the microfilm file records at the National Archives for immigration into the US from August 1, through August 7, 1961. “??

    have you checked that out?

    the records are from 1882-1957

    # 85.2 Headquarters Records of INS and its Predecessors 1882-1955

    * 85.2.1 General records
    * 85.2.2 Records of the Division of Citizenship Training
    * 85.2.3 Records of the Federal Council of Citizenship Training
    * 85.2.4 Records relating to Chinese immigration and residence
    * 85.2.5 Records relating to registration of aliens
    * 85.2.6 Records relating to the assassination of President Kennedy

    # 85.3 Passenger Arrival Records 1882-1957

    * 85.3.1 Passenger arrival lists (ship)
    * 85.3.2 Passenger arrival lists (air)
    * 85.3.3 Vessel crew lists
    * 85.3.4 Nunc pro Tunc (“Now for Then”) records

  24. avatar
    G March 2, 2012 at 8:50 pm #

    As a fervent Birther, you know all about hearsay. It is all you’ve ever had. Well, that and outright fraud, fakes and lies… but yeah, right up your alley.

    John: What SWORN tesitmony Doc? More like hearsay.

    Translation: it will likely never be disclosed as it is doesn’t qualify as real evidence at all.

    John: As par with an Open Criminal investigation of fraud and forgery, evidence will not be disclosed until the appropriate time.

    What, you mean like GA, VA and IN? You know, the ones in which they ALL came out and declared Obama as NBC and eligible for the Ballot… Face, it you’ve failed on the merits every time and will always continue to do so.

    John: Obama better hope that a ballot challenge doesn’t reach a merit hearing.

    Hahahahahaha! Yeah, so “daming” that the Sheriff won’t pursue any charges or make any hard accusations. LOL!

    Keep dreaming your impossible dream.

    The “investigation” is DOA and going nowhere. The whole deal was really an attempt to goad media attention and it failed spectacularly…

    In the long run, it will probably be viewed as one of the biggest EPIC FAIL events of the entire Birther movement…

    As I’ve said, you’ve been PUNKED. What Arpiao served you was little different than Trump telling you that “you wouldn’t believe what his investigators are finding”…. and is headed in the same direction from there – NOWHERE.

    John: Sheriff Arpaio’s report is pretty daming as it is product of an official, legal and recognizable investigative body.

  25. avatar
    donna March 2, 2012 at 8:53 pm #

    “I do so hope some fool decides to offer it as evidence.”

    that FOOL will be the ditz taitz

    “I need certified copies of Arpaio report to send to IN, MS, GA ASAP”

  26. avatar
    G March 2, 2012 at 8:54 pm #

    Already easily debunked. Corsi made that whole claim up and it was a clear lie. The microfilm file records on this type of information is only available up through 1957. So he couldn’t have found ANY records for 1961 at all.

    http://www.thefogbow.com/arpaio-report/

    Brian: The real question that goes unanswered is, where are the microfilm file records at the National Archives for immigration into the US from August 1, through August 7, 1961. They are conveniently missing. They could have shown that Barack Obama was a foreign immigrant.

    Only to the willfully blind.

    Brian: Obama remains an enigma.

  27. avatar
    G March 2, 2012 at 8:55 pm #

    Thank You.

    Dr. Conspiracy: I’ve let the birthers have their romp, but now it’s time to impose a little sanity on the discussion.

  28. avatar
    ellen March 2, 2012 at 9:03 pm #

    Re:

    “The real question that goes unanswered is, where are the microfilm file records at the National Archives for immigration into the US from August 1, through August 7, 1961. They are conveniently missing. They could have shown that Barack Obama was a foreign immigrant.”

    Frankly, I do not believe that they are missing, Does anyone who reads this blog live in DC or have friends in DC who can go to the National Archives and check?

  29. avatar
    Thomas Brown March 2, 2012 at 9:15 pm #

    It’s getting easier and easier to skip right past “John’s” comments without reading them. Everything he says is as insightful and penetrating as five-year-old’s “Nuh uh!”

  30. avatar
    Brian March 2, 2012 at 9:16 pm #

    Daniel: How do we know they are missing?

    We only know as it is related by the official press release of information from the MCSO which stated:

    “to quell the popular idea that Obama was actually born outside the United States, we examined the records of Immigration and Naturalization Service cards, routinely filled out by airplane passengers arriving on international flights that originated outside the United States in the month of August 1961. Those records are housed at the National Archives in Washington D.C. Interestingly, records from the days surrounding Obama’s birth, August 1, 1961 to August 7, 1961 are missing. This is the only week in 1961 where these immigration cards cannot be found.”

    If their report is accurate, and I have no reason to doubt it, this is very troubling.

  31. avatar
    G March 2, 2012 at 9:23 pm #

    Here is a reason to doubt it:

    http://www.thefogbow.com/arpaio-report/

    Corsi has a long history of full of shameless lies. He’s also been an ardent pusher of Obama myths from the get go. He completely lacks credibility.

    There is no reasonable reason for any serious person to take Corsi at his mere word about anything.

    That this particular point of this “all so important investigatin” was left solely to Corsi to investigate and is based on nothing more than his word alone is a red flag in the “smell test” right there…

    Brian: If their report is accurate, and I have no reason to doubt it, this is very troubling.

  32. avatar
    Daniel March 2, 2012 at 9:29 pm #

    Brian: We only know as it is related by the official press release of information from the MCSO

    If their report is accurate, and I have no reason to doubt it, this is very troubling.

    So you’ll believe a shoulda/woulda/coulda from the Arpaio dog and pony show, without question… but somehow you cannot bring yourself to believe the definitive statement from the State of Hawaii…

    That tells me all I need to know about you.

  33. avatar
    Thomas Brown March 2, 2012 at 9:33 pm #

    Brian: We only know as it is related by the official press release of information from the MCSO…

    If their report is accurate, and I have no reason to doubt it, this is very troubling.

    In that case Brian, can I interest you in an excellent deal on a bridge in Brooklyn?

  34. avatar
    jayhg March 2, 2012 at 9:37 pm #

    John: Statute involves issuing of birth certificates to foreign born. It does not apply to foreign birth registrations in birth announcements. It would appear the statute is misplaced and Doc is just speculating.

    I have no idea what you just blathered in this sentence and I’m sure you don’t, either. Dumb ass birther….

  35. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 2, 2012 at 9:37 pm #

    John: As par with an Open Criminal investigation of fraud and forgery, evidence will not be disclosed until the appropriate time.

    What criminal investigation? Posse members have no police powers. Hence no criminal investigation.

  36. avatar
    donna March 2, 2012 at 9:43 pm #

    “As par with an Open Criminal investigation of fraud and forgery, evidence will not be disclosed until the appropriate time.”

    kindly inform us when there is a grand jury indictment

    tia

  37. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 2, 2012 at 9:45 pm #

    John: Sheriff Arpaio’s report is pretty daming as it is product of an official, legal and recognizable investigative body.

    One more time: Posse members are not sworn, certified peace officers. They have no official or legal authority.

  38. avatar
    ellen March 2, 2012 at 9:51 pm #

    Brian said:

    “If their report is accurate, and I have no reason to doubt it, this is very troubling.”

    Answer: I doubt it. I doubt it a great deal. Has anyone got a friend or relative in the DC Area who can go to the National Archives and check the allegation that these documents are missing?

  39. avatar
    ASK Esq March 2, 2012 at 10:03 pm #

    Simple rule of thumb: When people are telling the truth, and they can back up their claims, they don’t make vague statements. They don’t claim unnamed experts, they don’t claim to have evidence that they’re not showing, they don’t claim to have found something without showing what they found. Of course, these con artists know their audience, and they know that birthers will accept anything as long as it supports their viewpoint.

  40. avatar
    G March 2, 2012 at 10:06 pm #

    BINGO!

    ASK Esq: Simple rule of thumb: When people are telling the truth, and they can back up their claims, they don’t make vague statements. They don’t claim unnamed experts, they don’t claim to have evidence that they’re not showing, they don’t claim to have found something without showing what they found. Of course, these con artists know their audience, and they know that birthers will accept anything as long as it supports their viewpoint.

  41. avatar
    ellen March 2, 2012 at 10:18 pm #

    Re: ““to quell the popular idea that Obama was actually born outside the United States, we examined the records of Immigration and Naturalization Service cards, routinely filled out by airplane passengers arriving on international flights that originated outside the United States in the month of August 1961. Those records are housed at the National Archives in Washington D.C. Interestingly, records from the days surrounding Obama’s birth, August 1, 1961 to August 7, 1961 are missing. This is the only week in 1961 where these immigration cards cannot be found.”

    If their report is accurate, and I have no reason to doubt it, this is very troubling.”

    Answer. I doubt it. I doubt it a lot. Does anyone have relatives or friends in Washington who can go to the National Archives and check out this allegation?

  42. avatar
    GeorgiaKev March 2, 2012 at 10:46 pm #

    Brian: August 1

    Brian: So you believe that an 18-yr-old American woman, who was 6-7 mo’s pregnant, traveled ALONE from Hawaii to Kenya (in 1961, no less) to be with her STBX in-laws (who probably hated her guts) and have her baby there? After taking about 4 different planes, she arrives in Kenya at the ONLY international airport the country had in 1961 and then traveled hundreds of miles more on dirt roads to her inlaws’ house and gave birth there.

    Then, just 24-48 hours after giving birth, she took her newborn baby, traveled all the way back the airport on hundreds of miles of dirt roads, and took about 4 different flights back to America with a baby who was not even two days old? Yeah, that makes A LOT of sense, doesn’t it?

  43. avatar
    ellen March 2, 2012 at 10:57 pm #

    Re: “about 4 different planes.”

    Probably a lot more than four. One way would have been (1) Hawaii to Los Angeles; (2) LA to NYC; (3) NYC to London; (4) London to Rome; (5) Rome to Cairo; (6) Cairo to Nairobi. The other way would have been (1) Hawaii to Tokyo; (2) Tokyo to Hong Kong; (3) Hong Kong to Bangkok; (4) Bangkok to New Delhi; (5) New Dehli to Teheran; (6) Teheran to Cairo; (7) Cairo to Nairobi.

    I have seen the estimated cost of such a trip in today’s dollars, round trip, estimated at around $10,000 for one person. And to pay that kind of money for a rough and risky trip late it pregnancy, and all alone, to a place where Yellow Fever was endemic, is something that very very very few women would want to do–if they even had the money.

    Moreover, the birthers allege that Obama’s mother not only did it, but that somehow all records of her arrival and departure from Kenya and of the child’s birth have all been hidden away, and the same for any US travel records, and that somehow she was able to convince the officials in Hawaii that a child born in Kenya was actually born in Kapiolani Hospital in Hawaii.

    CRAZY!!!

  44. avatar
    richCares March 2, 2012 at 10:59 pm #

    Birferstan is so excited, they got Sheriff Joe on their side, they are giddy and giglling with joy that is until they realize Joe’s report won’t go anywhere and is meaningless.. The news response to this bobshell was zilch, nada, quite and going nowhere!

  45. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 2, 2012 at 11:05 pm #

    Only that is exactly what the CCP did a, a detail of evidence before the press and no way to judge its credibility. Since when does law enforce try its cases before the press like you just saw? So I guess this was not a normal investigation was it?

    Brian: All evidence in an ongoing law enforcement iinvestigation is not normally released during the investigation. This was a preliminarty report.

  46. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 2, 2012 at 11:08 pm #

    Forgive me, but someone instantly comes to mind.

    Daniel: I do so hope some fool decides to offer it as evidence.

  47. avatar
    donna March 2, 2012 at 11:48 pm #

    taitz:

    “Sheriff Joe Arpaio will release his report tomorrow. I ordered it. If there will be any new information, I will submit it to courts as a supplemental brief”

    “I need certified copies of Arpaio report to send to IN, MS, GA ASAP”

  48. avatar
    Expelliarmus March 3, 2012 at 12:05 am #

    ellen: Re: ““to quell the popular idea that Obama was actually born outside the United States, we examined the records of Immigration and Naturalization Service cards, routinely filled out by airplane passengers arriving on international flights that originated outside the United States in the month of August 1961. Those records are housed at the National Archives in Washington D.C. Interestingly, records from the days surrounding Obama’s birth, August 1, 1961 to August 7, 1961 are missing. This is the only week in 1961 where these immigration cards cannot be found.”

    If their report is accurate, and I have no reason to doubt it, this is very troubling.”

    Answer. I doubt it. I doubt it a lot. Does anyone have relatives or friends in Washington who can go to the National Archives and check out this allegation?

    The National Archives web site reflects only very limited holdings for records of immigrants arriving by air, as follows:
    [quote]85.3.2 Passenger arrival lists (air)

    Textual Records: Microfilm copies of airplane passenger arrival lists, including lists for Miami, FL, 1929-45 (178 rolls), with index, 1930-42 (68 rolls); New Orleans, LA, 1943-45 (12 rolls); West Palm Beach, FL, 1931-45 (2 rolls); and miscellaneous ports in FL, 1944-45 (1 roll).[/quote]

    See: http://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/085.html#85.3.2

    So it kind of comes down to, who do you believe? Jerome Corsi, or the published data of the agency where he claims to have gone looking for records?

  49. avatar
    JD Reed March 3, 2012 at 12:05 am #

    Occam’s Rasor is crying out for John and Brian, as well as their heroes in the birthers, I mean, sheriff’s, posse.
    The great bulk of birther explanations about how events unfolded are convoluted and are anomolies, not the most simple explanation consistent with the facts. For instance, take the birth records in the two Honolulu dailies. In the ordiinary course of events, for someone born in a Honollulu hospital, thed information would have been collected by the hospital and forwarded to the State Department of Health, which in turn would funnel the info to the local news agency — I forget its name — and the papers would get their ibirth data from saiid agency. One-stop shopping for the journalists, which would cut down on time spent inpuitting the births, iinaccuracties in the birth inforomation, and the possibility of getting punked by a totally bogus birth announcement.
    But Zullo said, if he was quoted correctly, that the fact the Honolulu newspaper had a birth announcement at the time proves nothing, saying the newspaper accepted such messages without requiring proof the person actually had been born in the state.

    This implies that someone could just call in a supposed birth and get it acceptedd by the papers, but that would have been a stupid way to operate. Despute what some critics might claim, metropolitan daily newspapers are seldom run by stupid people.

  50. avatar
    Rickey March 3, 2012 at 12:09 am #

    richCares:
    Birferstan is so excited, they got Sheriff Joe on their side, they are giddy and giglling with joy that is until they realize Joe’s report won’t go anywhere and is meaningless.. The news response to this bobshell was zilch, nada, quite and going nowhere!

    On Facebook I told a right-winger I know that the best way to guarantee Obama’s re-election is to continue making issues of Obama’s birth certificate and birth control.

    While the media have been rightfully dismissive of Arpaio’s “investigation,” it will be interesting to see if Romney and Santorum will be asked to weight in on it.

  51. avatar
    J. Potter March 3, 2012 at 12:09 am #

    They certainly did lie …. the bigget whopper of all was in the Q/A:

    REPORTER: … why should I believe that the Sheriff of one county in Arizona has more evidence than folks from fifty states who have been looking at this. Clearly, some of that, with eye on…
    JOE ARPAIO: Has anybody ever come up with this information? Show it to me. Who has come up with this information? No one! … Until we did it.

    Quick! Someone forward Arpaio a copy of the interwebs! Even a tireless, 6-month investigation (never mind that it was only 5 months, counting is hard), can miss some obscure sources. (NonProfit Posse can’t even afford dial-up?)

    So many stones to overturn in the Arizona desert, who has time for logging on?

    Well, with such a limited timber industry in Arizona, I can see how they might be unfamiliar with the term “logging on”.

    “Stick with what we said today, and you make your own judgement as to whether it’s credible or not.”

    I promise. Aaaaand …. done! It’s crap. Next!

  52. avatar
    donna March 3, 2012 at 12:14 am #

    “This implies that someone could just call in a supposed birth and get it acceptedd by the papers, but that would have been a stupid way to operate”

    can you imagine?

    i would call the papers every dec 31st and tell them i just had quintuplets and then use those 5 dependents on my income tax form and the birth announcements as my “evidence”

    RIDICULOUS!!!

  53. avatar
    bjphysics March 3, 2012 at 3:03 am #

    What crime?

    I have a stupid question: what crime(s) is it the CCP is investigating?

    Obama or the Democratic Party of Arizona registered his candidacy in that state. I don’t understand how anything “investigated” by the CCP could possibly relate to any crime under Arizona law.

    What am I missing here?

  54. avatar
    naturalizedcitizen March 3, 2012 at 3:05 am #

    ASK Esq: Simple rule of thumb: When people are telling the truth, and they can back up their claims, they don’t make vague statements. They don’t claim unnamed experts, they don’t claim to have evidence that they’re not showing, they don’t claim to have found something without showing what they found. Of course, these con artists know their audience, and they know that birthers will accept anything as long as it supports their viewpoint.

    Can you explain multiple layers in Obama’s “pdf” file? Can you refute arguments presented by Arpaio’s investigation?

  55. avatar
    Daniel March 3, 2012 at 3:16 am #

    naturalizedcitizen: Can you explain multiple layers in Obama’s “pdf” file? Can you refute arguments presented by Arpaio’s investigation?

    Already done last May when all the points in “Arpaio’s Investigation” were first invented by the birthers.

    Oh, I’m sorry, were you under the mistaken impression that all this “evidence” was the work of Arpaio and the CCP and it was in any way new? How sad for you.

  56. avatar
    Rickey March 3, 2012 at 3:37 am #

    naturalizedcitizen: Canyou explain multiple layers in Obama’s “pdf” file? Can you refute arguments presented by Arpaio’s investigation?

    The only challenge is to find a single thing said by Arpaio which hasn’t been refuted a thousand times over.

  57. avatar
    Suranis March 3, 2012 at 5:14 am #

    GeorgiaKev: Brian: So you believe that an 18-yr-old American woman, who was 6-7 mo’s pregnant, traveled ALONE from Hawaii to Kenya (in 1961, no less) to be with her STBX in-laws (who probably hated her guts) and have her baby there?After taking about 4 different planes, she arrives in Kenya at the ONLY international airport the country had in 1961 and then traveled hundreds of miles more on dirt roads to her inlaws’ house and gave birth there.

    Then, just 24-48 hours after giving birth, she took her newborn baby, traveled all the way back the airport on hundreds of miles of dirt roads, and took about 4 different flights back to America with a baby who was not even two days old?Yeah, that makes A LOT of sense, doesn’t it?

    You forgot “im the middle of the biggest outbreak of yellow fever Africa has ever seen.”

    naturalizedcitizen: Canyou explain multiple layers in Obama’s “pdf” file? Can you refute arguments presented by Arpaio’s investigation?

    The Layers come from opening the PDF in a program not designed too read PDFs, Adobe Illustrator. I’ve been told that f you open it in Photoshop no layers exist. I havent been able to verify that as I dont own a copy of photoshop, but if so its dignificant as photoshop is designed to work with layers, illustrator isn’t. Also Photoshop works with Pickes, illustrater with vertices.

    Also, even Aripos investication conceded that if you scan any document into a pdf and open it in Illustrator it will create layers. They spent a good amount of time talking about why thant didnt matter. Werent you watching?

    And get back to me when they explain how creating doconemts on a pc with Adobe Photoshop is the same as creating them on a Mac with Quark PDFCreator…

  58. avatar
    Obsolete March 3, 2012 at 5:25 am #

    naturalizedcitizen: Can you explain multiple layers in Obama’s “pdf” file? Can you refute arguments presented by Arpaio’s investigation?

    Been explained to you probably dozens of times already…….
    Here is a good starting link:
    http://www.thefogbow.com/special-reports/adobe-special-report/

    See also http://www.scribd.com/doc/59087668/Response-to-Zebest
    John Woodman
    National Review
    etc.
    etc.

    But being a birther, you won’t read any source at all. You will simply pop up in another thread and ask all over again…

  59. avatar
    Obsolete March 3, 2012 at 5:32 am #

    Suranis: I’ve been told that f you open it in Photoshop no layers exist. I havent been able to verify that as I dont own a copy of photoshop, but if so its dignificant as photoshop is designed to work with layers, illustrator isn’t.

    Yes, opening it in Photoshop, it is a single layer (all files have to have at least one layer, of course, the base layer).
    Photoshop and Illustrator are different in how they approach layers. When you open the PDF in Illustrator, it automatically analyzes it and tries to group similar objects into layers to help you with a good starting point for your edits. Any document similar to Obama’s LFBC PDF will show similar layers when opened in Illustrator. Every time.

  60. avatar
    naturalizedcitizen March 3, 2012 at 7:17 am #

    Suranis: You forgot “im the middle of the biggest outbreak of yellow fever Africa has ever seen.”

    The Layers come from opening the PDF in a program not designed too read PDFs, Adobe Illustrator. I’ve been told that f you open it in Photoshop no layers exist. I havent been able to verify that as I dont own a copy of photoshop, but if so its dignificant as photoshop is designed to work with layers, illustrator isn’t. Also Photoshop works with Pickes, illustrater with vertices.

    Also, even Aripos investication conceded that if you scan any document into a pdf and open it in Illustrator it will create layers. They spent a good amount of time talking about why thant didnt matter. Werent you watching?

    And get back to me when they explain how creating doconemts on a pc with Adobe Photoshop is the same as creating them on a Mac with Quark PDFCreator…

    Where is the video of an Obot expert using Quark PDF Creator demonstrating the creation of a file similar to Obama’s “.pdf” file?

    I am not interested in BS talk about it – show it to me. Arpaio’s investigation did it in an easily understandable fashion. What prevents Obots to do the same?

  61. avatar
    Obsolete March 3, 2012 at 7:48 am #

    Birthers only believe it if it is on youtube, huh?

    How about something much simpler- try it yourself. You don’t even have to scan anything if you don’t have a scanner. Do a Google search until you find a PDF similar in content to Obama’s LFBC, with areas that are typed, handwritten, and graphical elements. Open it in Adobe Illustrator and see the layers for yourself.
    (I would supply you with a PDF or two, but would you trust them from an Obot?)

    If you still require a video, ask John Woodman- he can probably help you. His site:
    http://www.obamabirthbook.com/

    Ariz. Sheriff Arpaio: Obama Birth Certificate Computer Generated Forgery’
    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/03/01/147737446/ariz-sheriff-arpaio-will-release-findings-on-obamas-birth-certificate?ft=1&f=1001

    “Update at 11:46 p.m. ET. A Bit More On Layers:

    Reader Beth Kerner points out in the comments that if you open the pdf of Obama’s birth certificate in Adobe Illustrator, it does, indeed show layers.

    We tried it and the file does have layers. But we also opened a few other pdf documents on our computer and they all showed similar layers that isolate the text.

  62. avatar
    mheuss March 3, 2012 at 7:49 am #

    J. Potter: Well, with such a limited timber industry in Arizona, I can see how they might be unfamiliar with the term “logging on”.

    It is brilliant and witty writing such as this above that has long drawn me to the works of Angelou, Franzen, Tolstoy, Stienbeck, and of course, the comments section here on obamaconspiracy. My hats off to you, Mr. Potter. A job well done indeed.

  63. avatar
    Suranis March 3, 2012 at 8:09 am #

    naturalizedcitizen: Where is the video of an Obot expert using Quark PDF Creator demonstrating the creation of a file similar to Obama’s “.pdf” file?

    I am not interested in BS talk about it – show it to me.Arpaio’s investigation did it in an easily understandable fashion.What prevents Obots to do the same?

    I will when birthers show a video demonstrating that Illustrator will split a text image into the same laywers as was used in photoshop to create it, and that a pdf created will be opened in illustrater in a single layer. Surely it would be simple to do. Macs are cheap and QuarkPDFCreator is very common in scanning software. Why not dempnstrate that our explination is full of shit? Joe farah knows it was made with quark, I told him myself. How come worldnet daily has not blown this bogus expliation out of the water?

    Yes, even your investication had to concede that any similar pdf document opened in illustrator will form layers. All that they could come up with to refute it was that was a claim there were too few layers hot that the presense of layers was suspicious.

    You are the accuser, its up to you to present evidence. Wheres the video of the birther demonstrating that this explination is false with a Mac and a scanner? is there no birhter out there willing to buy a Mac and a scanner??? ITS A KONSTITUCUINAL KRISES!!

  64. avatar
    Suranis March 3, 2012 at 8:30 am #

    naturalizedcitizen: Where is the video of an Obot expert using Quark PDF Creator demonstrating the creation of a file similar to Obama’s “.pdf” file?

    I am not interested in BS talk about it – show it to me.Arpaio’s investigation did it in an easily understandable fashion.What prevents Obots to do the same?

    Answer 2; We’re not trying to flog a 45 page book for 10 bucks..

  65. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 3, 2012 at 9:24 am #

    Hey, I’m not making criminal charges. The question is: Where is the video of the Arizona Cold Case Posse doing this? Because if they didn’t do it, their report is rigged and their conclusions are invalid, but not only invalid, they are fraudulent — misrepresented as a fair and unbiased test.

    If I had a Mac I would have tried this, but I don’t. I did try it with Adobe Acrobat and got things that were along the lines of what we see in the White House PDF. They weren’t identical, but they are things that birther experts said were impossible. I could never be able to perform test that actually replicates a scan of the White House bir5th certificate because I don’t have a real Hawaii birth certificate to work with, nor did the birthers in Arizona.

    naturalizedcitizen: Where is the video of an Obot expert using Quark PDF Creator demonstrating the creation of a file similar to Obama’s “.pdf” file

  66. avatar
    Majority Will March 3, 2012 at 9:34 am #

    Rickey: On Facebook I told a right-winger I know that the best way to guarantee Obama’s re-election is to continue making issues of Obama’s birth certificate and birth control.

    While the media have been rightfully dismissive of Arpaio’s “investigation,” it will be interesting to see if Romney and Santorum will be asked to weight in on it.

    Yes. Let them rant. They will drag the GOP further into the mud (wait, that’s not mud).

    Loud, angry birther bigots are political gold for the incumbent.

  67. avatar
    Scientist March 3, 2012 at 9:45 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Hey, I’m not making criminal charges.

    Neither is Arpaio. Which is why the representation of this charade as an official law enforcement investigation is as phony as a $3 bill.

  68. avatar
    donna March 3, 2012 at 9:45 am #

    Rickey: “While the media have been rightfully dismissive of Arpaio’s “investigation,” it will be interesting to see if Romney and Santorum will be asked to weight in on it.”

    i would LOVE to see romney and santorum weigh in – that would open the door for those ,like me who like consistency, to ask them questions about THEIR birtherstan natural born status –

    in birtherstan , santorum is not natural born

    for romney, there are numerous unanswered questions that, if answered, might conclude he is not natural born in birtherstan

  69. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 11:08 am #

    The Statement by Mike Zullo is entirely possible; Hawaiian Law in 1961 from legislation in 1955 allowed for birth registration by Affidavit! I grew up in Alaska and we had similar statutes since children were born in remote locations far from doctors or Hospitals, the same in Hawaii. All that was required was a sworn statement attesting to the Birth by a Parent, Grandparent or a Midwife that witnessed the BIRTH was all that was needed to register the Birth in Hawaii or Alaska. The integrity of the Birth Certificate is only as good as the Affidavit that it is predicated upon. So if someone were to file a FALSE affidavit they could in fact register a birth for someone NOT born in Hawaii in 1961. As in the example he GAVE 3 years earlier!

    To put this MATTER to rest why doesn’t Obama just release Hawaii from any privacy issues that attaches to the records of his Nativity and allow inspection by the public and any other organization that wishes to inspect the “Best Evidence” which in their Hands! I suspect that he does indeed have a Birth Certificate by Affidavit and having it released would bring into question his entire life’s STORY.

    Federal and State privacy laws bar the State of Hawaii from releasing any substantive information contained in his records, so if his BC that he has posted would contain any information that would conflict with the Official Record they are again BARRED from comment! Again, to end this issue ONCE and for all and allow all Americans to be at ease on this question, what is the problem with allowing Hawaii to release his records since he has already RELEASED his True and CORRECT Certificate to the PUBLIC, it should cause NO harm or Foul to anyone by this action… EVEN Him!

  70. avatar
    Greenfinches March 3, 2012 at 11:21 am #

    Al Halbert: To put this MATTER to rest why doesn’t Obama just release Hawaii from any privacy issues that attaches to the records of his Nativity and allow inspection by the public and any other organization that wishes to inspect the “Best Evidence” which in their Hands! I suspect that he does indeed have a Birth Certificate by Affidavit and having it released would bring into question his entire life’s STORY.

    Al, sorry but you may have missed the doctor’s signature on the LFBC?

  71. avatar
    katahdin March 3, 2012 at 11:25 am #

    Orly Taitz is going to be mad!

    J. Potter: JOE ARPAIO: Has anybody ever come up with this information? Show it to me. Who has come up with this information? No one! … Until we did it.

  72. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 11:42 am #

    Greenfinches: Al, sorry but you may have missed the doctor’s signature on the LFBC?

    So this would be evident would it NOT if Hawaii releases the very same DOCUMENT, having the Doctors signature then everyone can give a sigh of relief and be done with this ONCE and for ALL? Obama has released his TRUE and Correct Copy, the circumstances have come into question! The reason for this is when John Turley started the Birth Certificate mess or “Bither” movement in February 2008 when he wrote several articles demanding John McCain’s BC, which was presented forthwith by McCain. It took six months of prodding and cajoling to have Obama release his COLB! This in of itself kicked off this sad series of events.

    So the most reasonable thing to do NOW is allow independent parties to VETT his Birth Certificate would be for Hawaii (Best Evidence) to release to the public, can’t you just see the egg on everyone’s face when they do! Independent verification is a well known component in our society thats why we need to have forensic experts that discern fact from fiction. Obama made this mess himself by dragging his feet in 2008 for six months, anyone that questions him has good reason to do so!

  73. avatar
    Sef March 3, 2012 at 11:49 am #

    Al Halbert: John McCain’s BC, which was presented forthwith by McCain.

    McCain NEVER produced his BC. The one presented in the court case was a fake and the real one was leaked, not by McCain.

  74. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 11:56 am #

    Sef: McCain NEVER produced his BC. The one presented in the court case was a fake and the real one was leaked, not by McCain.

    Okay- McCain is NOT the President; OBAMA is, lets have some of that FAMOUS transparency since he has already released his True and Correct copy of his BC. Allow Hawaii to release the SAME one! There is nothing wrong with verification, it is done everyday, Reagan’s famous quote when dealing with this issue “Trust but Verify” over the various SALT treaties with Russia!

    So again it would not cause Obama any harm to have Hawaii release his records would it, since he has already put them in the Public Domain?

  75. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 3, 2012 at 12:03 pm #

    Since the birthers have already said that Hawaiian officials have lied, that that there are already allegations of a fake birth certificate in their files, I don’t see what value there is to your suggestion.

    Having watched this unfold for three and a half years, I know that whatever evidence is presented, conspiracy theorists will reject it and ask for more. Trying to respond to such is a pointless exercise.

    While I welcome any form of evidence because it provides news for the blog, the evidence that exists is so overwhelming that I cannot accept any request for more as rational.

    Al Halbert: So again it would not cause Obama any harm to have Hawaii release his records would it, since he has already put them in the Public Domain?

  76. avatar
    Brian March 3, 2012 at 12:03 pm #

    They have the 1961 INS documentation as stated. There is probable cause that the President’s Cerificate of Live Birth is a criminal forgery. There is problale cause that the Presidents Selective Service Registriation is a criminal forgery.

    The most important allegation is the Selective Service Registration form as it is directly connected to Barack Obama. If it is a criminal forgery, and manufactured in 2008, or more recently, it would appear that Senator Barack Obama held office illegally in Illinois.

  77. avatar
    Sef March 3, 2012 at 12:05 pm #

    Al Halbert: Allow Hawaii to release the SAME one!

    It’s not up to President Obama. The HI DoH and its laws and policies are what’s limiting any further access.

  78. avatar
    Sef March 3, 2012 at 12:07 pm #

    Brian:
    They have the 1961 INS documentation as stated.There is probable cause that the President’s Cerificate of Live Birth is a criminal forgery. There is problale cause that the Presidents Selective Service Registriation is a criminal forgery.

    The most important allegation is the Selective Service Registration form as it is directly connected to Barack Obama.If it is a criminal forgery, and manufactured in 2008, or more recently, it would appear that Senator Barack Obama held office illegally in Illinois.

    Yunny, yunny, yunny, That Kool-aid sure is tasty.

  79. avatar
    Sef March 3, 2012 at 12:08 pm #

    sed -e ‘s/nn/mm/g’

  80. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 3, 2012 at 12:08 pm #

    “Probably cause” is just words. Saying it doesn’t make it true. As a specialist on this topic, I didn’t see anything remotely resembling valid evidence, and nothing that could be construed as “probable cause.”

    Obviously you take the Arizona Sheriff seriously, and normally I would take an official law enforcement press conference seriously too.

    However, what I saw from Arizona was unlike any official law enforcement press conference I have ever seen. What I saw was was a bunch of birthers from WorldNetDaily running the show, and making statements that were obviously false or misleading. Arpaio apparently bought it, but that doesn’t make it so.

    The Selective Service registration form is indeed interesting, especially since it was obtained from the BUSH ADMINISTRATION. If it is a fake, then obviously Barack Obama never touched it.

    Brian: They have the 1961 INS documentation as stated. There is probable cause that the President’s Cerificate of Live Birth is a criminal forgery. There is problale cause that the Presidents Selective Service Registriation is a criminal forgery.

    The most important allegation is the Selective Service Registration form as it is directly connected to Barack Obama. If it is a criminal forgery, and manufactured in 2008, or more recently, it would appear that Senator Barack Obama held office illegally in Illinois.

  81. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 12:15 pm #

    Sef: It’s not up to President Obama. The HI DoH and its laws and policies are what’s limiting any further access.

    Obama can release them by giving them the authority to do so; only he can waive this or a valid court order!

  82. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 12:23 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Since the birthers have already said that Hawaiian officials have lied, that that there are already allegations of a fake birth certificate in their files, I don’t see what value there is to your suggestion.

    Having watched this unfold for three and a half years, I know that whatever evidence is presented, conspiracy theorists will reject it and ask for more. Trying to respond to such is a pointless exercise.

    While I welcome any form of evidence because it provides news for the blog, the evidence that exists is so overwhelming that I cannot accept any request for more as rational.

    Their are some on both sides of this issue that will never be satisfied, with that said then the best way to settle the matter would for Forensic Experts to examine the (Best Evidence) in the Hawaiian DOH Archives, would it not? As citizens it is not un-american to ask that an issue be resolved by the best means possible, is it? Rational is only applicable when it is verified by independent 3rd party inspection!

    How can Obama be harmed and the “Birthers” will be shown for what they are, by this course of action! Then Obama and his supporters can GLOAT for eternity and the “Birthers” will have to live the consequences, having doubt is not wrong, allowing to fester by Obama is!

    I have given credible support to Mike Zullo’s comment which you have stated was false, so what if Obama does indeed have a BC by Affidavit, what would be the consequence of that?

  83. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 3, 2012 at 12:24 pm #

    Under what statute might he do that?

    Al Halbert: Obama can release them by giving them the authority to do so; only he can waive this or a valid court order!

  84. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 12:30 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    “Probably cause” is just words. Saying it doesn’t make it true. As a specialist on this topic, I didn’t see anything remotely resembling valid evidence, and nothing that could be construed as “probable cause.”

    Obviously you take the Arizona Sheriff seriously, and normally I would take an official law enforcement press conference seriously too.

    However, what I saw from Arizona was unlike any official law enforcement press conference I have ever seen. What I saw was was a bunch of birthers from WorldNetDaily running the show, and making statements that were obviously false or misleading. Arpaio apparently bought it, but that doesn’t make it so.

    The Selective Service registration form is indeed interesting, especially since it was obtained from the BUSH ADMINISTRATION. If it is a fake, then obviously Barack Obama never touched it.

    Please enlighten us on how the BUSH Administration falsified Obama’s Selective Service card? Bush was up, he was leaving office for good, so he tried to interfere in the election process, what was his motives and enumeration for such an act?

  85. avatar
    Greenfinches March 3, 2012 at 12:30 pm #

    Al Halbert: So this would be evident would it NOT if Hawaii releases the very same DOCUMENT, having the Doctors signature then everyone can give a sigh of relief and be done with this ONCE and for ALL? Obama has released his TRUE and Correct Copy, the circumstances have come into question! The reason for this is when John Turley started the Birth Certificate mess or “Bither” movement in February 2008 when he wrote several articles demanding John McCain’s BC, which was presented forthwith by McCain. It took six months of prodding and cajoling to have Obama release his COLB! This in of itself kicked off this sad series of events.

    The LFBC is a true and correct copy; that was seen at the press conference, if you recall? Most people know this, you may have missed it? And there are photos….

    and you could have handles the COLB yourself in 2008 if you had wanted to.

    Hard, is it, to accept that a black man is President? If that is the issue, then don’t vote for him in November and you may be spared more such horror!

  86. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 12:33 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Under what statute might he do that?

    Under privacy laws the individual can release the authority from their duty to not disclose, every time you go the Hospital or a new Doctor you sign a waiver to allow release of your information under HIPPA laws to you insurance company, the same can be done for his BC!

  87. avatar
    Paper March 3, 2012 at 12:37 pm #

    This is like the story of people in prison telling jokes they’ve heard so many many times before. “#6!” exclaims an inmate. The whole cellblock breaks out laughing. “Yeah, that’s a good one,” they murmur.

    #6! I say.

    If you don’t know how you are rehashing #6, well, that might be why your argument goes nowhere and everyone out in the world laughs at you, and now laughs at the Toughest Sheriff in Americaaaaa. (You have to say it in a resonant, extended tone to get the full affect.)

    Al Halbert: Their are some on both sides of this issue that will never be satisfied, with that said then the best way to settle the matter would for Forensic Experts to examine the (Best Evidence) in the Hawaiian DOH Archives, would it not?As citizens it is not un-american to ask that an issue be resolved by the best means possible, is it? Rational is only applicable when it is verified by independent 3rd party inspection!

    How can Obama be harmed and the “Birthers” will be shown for what they are, by this course of action!Then Obama and his supporters can GLOAT for eternity and the “Birthers” will have to live the consequences, having doubt is not wrong, allowing to fester by Obama is!

    I have given credible support to Mike Zullo’s comment which you have stated was false, so what if Obama does indeed have a BC by Affidavit, what would be the consequence of that?

  88. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 12:38 pm #

    Greenfinches: The LFBC is a true and correct copy; that was seen at the press conference, if you recall?Most people know this, you may have missed it?And there are photos….

    and you could have handles the COLB yourself in 2008 if you had wanted to.

    Hard, is it, to accept that a black man is President?If that is the issue, then don’t vote for him in November and you may be spared more such horror!

    The racial issue is over the top, again Obama create this mess himself by dragging his feet for 6 months before he released his COLB…. The best evidence is in Hawaii and can be released by Obama if he chooses to, he cannot in any way be harmed if he does this, can he? Since has already released his True and Correct and certified copy, so to end this issue conclusively, just release Hawaii from their duty of privacy and lets all move on!

  89. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 12:41 pm #

    Paper:
    This is like the story of people in prison telling jokes they’ve heard so many many times before.“#6!” exclaims an inmate.The whole cellblock breaks out laughing.“Yeah, that’s a good one,” they murmur.

    #6!I say.

    If you don’t know how you are rehashing #6, well, that might be why your argument goes nowhere and everyone out in the world laughs at you, and now laughs at the Toughest Sheriff in Americaaaaa.(You have to say it in a resonant, extended tone to get the full affect.)

    So instead of reason you now resort to ridicule, how is that productive, seem unproductive to me! What I propose is reasonable and ends the MATTER once and for all would it not? Beside ridicule is not your forte, it was weak and lacked any critical thinking to smear me!

  90. avatar
    JoZeppy March 3, 2012 at 12:45 pm #

    Al Halbert: Their are some on both sides of this issue that will never be satisfied, with that said then the best way to settle the matter would for Forensic Experts to examine the (Best Evidence) in the Hawaiian DOH Archives, would it not?

    Best Evidence is a legal term of art….clearly you have no idea what it means. I highly recommend you avoid using it in the future. And as long as we are on the subject of the, the issue is settled. Under the Federal Rules of Evidence (and all state rules I am aware with), the paper copy, bearing the state seal is for all legal purposes an original. Under the best evidence rule, that paper copy that was handed around in the press conference is more than sufficent in any court of law to establish that President Obama was born where he claims he was. There is no reason under the any of the Rules of Evidence, absent real admissable evidence that the paper copy in the President’s possession should not be relied on, that would ever require having the original document even looked at, much less examined by forensic experts. In fact, to do so would be an a voilation of the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution. But I guess birthers don’t care about any part of the Constitution that would require them accepting anyone they don’t like as a legitimate President.

  91. avatar
    JoZeppy March 3, 2012 at 12:48 pm #

    Al Halbert: Under privacy laws the individual can release the authority from their duty to not disclose, every time you go the Hospital or a new Doctor you sign a waiver to allow release of your information under HIPPA laws to you insurance company, the same can be done for his BC!

    And as Dr. C. said….please provide the citation? We’re not talking about HIPPA or insurance companies. We talking about Hawaii laws limiting to whom the documents can be released. So again…which statute woudl that be?

  92. avatar
    richCares March 3, 2012 at 12:54 pm #

    “…lets all move on!”
    sure, you must be _________!

  93. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 12:56 pm #

    JoZeppy: Best Evidence is a legal term of art….clearly you have no idea what it means.I highly recommend you avoid using it in the future.And as long as we are on the subject of the, the issue is settled.Under the Federal Rules of Evidence (and all state rules I am aware with), the paper copy, bearing the state seal is for all legal purposes an original. Under the best evidence rule, that paper copy that was handed around in the press conference is more than sufficent in any court of law to establish that President Obama was born where he claims he was. There is no reason under the any of the Rules of Evidence, absent real admissableevidence that the paper copy in the President’s possession should not be relied on, that would ever require having the original document even looked at, much less examined by forensic experts.In fact, to do so would be an a voilation of the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution.But I guess birthers don’t care about any part of the Constitution that would require them accepting anyone they don’t like as a legitimate President.

    Obama has never placed a Paper Copy of his LFBC in anyone’s hand, only the COLB in 2008 after being dogged for 6 months to release his BC! Best evidence at this time resides with Hawaii as it is the Custodian of these records, which if you were familiar with the facts of the matter, it now exist as a Microfiche and not a Paper Copy.

    So the paper copy would only be a True and Correct Certified copy of what the State has in their Possession! So how can Obama be HARMED by allowing inspection by others? Would it not bring it to a screaming halt and everyone would have to live with the consequences and we could all move just move on!

    What is the problem with allowing Hawaii to release his records, after all he has already placed them in the Public Domain, has he NOT!

  94. avatar
    gorefan March 3, 2012 at 12:58 pm #

    Al Halbert: if Obama does indeed have a BC by Affidavit

    There would not be a doctors or hospital name on the BC.

    Note what the doctor certifies by his signature:

    “I hereby certify that this child was born alive on the date and hour stated above.”

    Note what it says about the Hospital:

    “6c. Name of Hospital or Institution (if not hospital or institution, give address)”

    Those two facts alone preculde the possiblity that this was a “BC by Affidavit”.

  95. avatar
    JoZeppy March 3, 2012 at 1:00 pm #

    Al Halbert: The racial issue is over the top, again Obama create this mess himself by dragging his feet for 6 months before he released his COLB

    Yes…Obama created the mess….the only Presidential candidate to release a copy of his birth certificate created this mess.

    Al Halbert: The best evidence is in Hawaii and can be released by Obama if he chooses to, he cannot in any way be harmed if he does this, can he?

    I’ll say it again…don’t use legal terms of art you do not understand. Either the certified short form, or long form satisfy the best evidence rule in any court. And actually, it’s not even established that the President could authorize anyone to view the original in the state archives. It’s a State record. He has no control over it. As for the harm, what exactly does he gain? Nothing, except having to pander to a anti-American malcontents that will just claim forgery, just like th last time they claimed, “all he has to do to end this controvery.”

    Al Halbert: As citizens it is not un-american to ask that an issue be resolved by the best means possible, is it?

    It is un-American to smear a President, and try to undermine his legitmacy based on lies and innuendo without a single scrap of evidence. For any fair minded individual, this was long considered resolved.

    Al Halbert: Rational is only applicable when it is verified by independent 3rd party inspection!

    Something that no court of law would ever require of any other citizen in a similar situation. So you’re saying it’s rational to throw away the law and Constitution, because despite not having a shred of evidence as to why to question the documents, or a shred of evidence that he was born anywhere else, or even a remotely plausive story how he could have been born anywhere else, you just don’t believe that colored guy in the White House? Yup…rational.

  96. avatar
    Greenfinches March 3, 2012 at 1:02 pm #

    Al Halbert: Obama has never placed a Paper Copy of his LFBC in anyone’s hand

    Savannah Guthrie doesn’t count? No journalist?

    The trouble is, mate, there have been way too many ‘If Obama would only do X, it would all go away’ moments. He does X, and birthers go nowhere.

    ah well. Reading this site is always interesting and I have learnt a lot about US law; thanks Doc for your labours!

  97. avatar
    gorefan March 3, 2012 at 1:03 pm #

    Al Halbert: Obama has never placed a Paper Copy of his LFBC in anyone’s hand

    Not true, reporters held the BC.

    Savanah Gunthrie of NBC News took two photos of the actual document.

    http://lockerz.com/s/96540937

    http://lockerz.com/s/96540721

    She even ‘felt the raised seal”.

  98. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 1:08 pm #

    JoZeppy: And as Dr. C. said….please provide the citation?We’re not talking about HIPPA or insurance companies.We talking about Hawaii laws limiting to whom the documents can be released.So again…which statute woudl that be?

    Hawaii Statute 338-18 allow for the following;

    338-18 Disclosure of records. (a) To protect the integrity of vital statistics records, to ensure their proper use, and to ensure the efficient and proper administration of the vital statistics system, it shall be unlawful for any person to permit inspection of, or to disclose information contained in vital statistics records, or to copy or issue a copy of all or part of any such record, except as authorized by this part or by rules adopted by the department of health.

    (b) The department shall not permit inspection of public health statistics records, or issue a certified copy of any such record or part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant has a direct and tangible interest in the record. The following persons shall be considered to have a direct and tangible interest in a public health statistics record:

    (1) The registrant;

    (2) The spouse of the registrant;

    (3) A parent of the registrant;

    (4) A descendant of the registrant;

    (5) A person having a common ancestor with the registrant;

    (6) A legal guardian of the registrant;

    (7) A person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;

    (8) A personal representative of the registrant’s estate;

    (9) A person whose right to inspect or obtain a certified copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction;

    (10) Adoptive parents who have filed a petition for adoption and who need to determine the death of one or more of the prospective adopted child’s natural or legal parents;

    (11) A person who needs to determine the marital status of a former spouse in order to determine the payment of alimony;

    (12) A person who needs to determine the death of a nonrelated co-owner of property purchased under a joint tenancy agreement; and

    (13) A person who needs a death certificate for the determination of payments under a credit insurance policy.

    (c) The department may permit the use [of] the data contained in public health statistical records for research purposes only, but no identifying use thereof shall be made.

    (d) Index data consisting of name and sex of the registrant, type of vital event, and such other data as the director may authorize shall be made available to the public.

    (e) The department may permit persons working on genealogy projects access to microfilm or other copies of vital records of events that occurred more than seventy-five years prior to the current year.

    (f) Subject to this section, the department may direct its local agents to make a return upon filing of birth, death, and fetal death certificates with them, of certain data shown to federal, state, territorial, county, or municipal agencies. Payment by these agencies for these services may be made as the department shall direct.

    (g) The department shall not issue a verification in lieu of a certified copy of any such record, or any part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant requesting a verification is:

    (1) A person who has a direct and tangible interest in the record but requests a verification in lieu of a certified copy;

    (2) A governmental agency or organization who for a legitimate government purpose maintains and needs to update official lists of persons in the ordinary course of the agency’s or organization’s activities;

    (3) A governmental, private, social, or educational agency or organization who seeks confirmation of a certified copy of any such record submitted in support of or information provided about a vital event relating to any such record and contained in an official application made in the ordinary course of the agency’s or organization’s activities by an individual seeking employment with, entrance to, or the services or products of the agency or organization;

    (4) A private or government attorney who seeks to confirm information about a vital event relating to any such record which was acquired during the course of or for purposes of legal proceedings; or

    (5) An individual employed, endorsed, or sponsored by a governmental, private, social, or educational agency or organization who seeks to confirm information about a vital event relating to any such record in preparation of reports or publications by the agency or organization for research or educational purposes. [L 1949, c 327, 22; RL 1955, 57-21; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, 19; am L 1967, c 30, 2; HRS 338-18; am L 1977, c 118, 1; am L 1991, c 190, 1; am L 1997, c 305, 5; am L 2001, c 246, 2]

    A request coming from our President is all that would be required under;

    (1) A person who has a direct and tangible interest in the record but requests a verification in lieu of a certified copy;

    (2) A governmental agency or organization who for a legitimate government purpose maintains and needs to update official lists of persons in the ordinary course of the agency’s or organization’s activities;

    (3) A governmental, private, social, or educational agency or organization who seeks confirmation of a certified copy of any such record submitted in support of or information provided about a vital event relating to any such record and contained in an official application made in the ordinary course of the agency’s or organization’s activities by an individual seeking employment with, entrance to, or the services or products of the agency or organization;

    (4) A private or government attorney who seeks to confirm information about a vital event relating to any such record which was acquired during the course of or for purposes of legal proceedings; or

    (5) An individual employed, endorsed, or sponsored by a governmental, private, social, or educational agency or organization who seeks to confirm information about a vital event relating to any such record in preparation of reports or publications by the agency or organization for research or educational purposes. [L 1949, c 327, 22; RL 1955, 57-21; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, 19; am L 1967, c 30, 2; HRS 338-18; am L 1977, c 118, 1; am L 1991, c 190, 1; am L 1997, c 305, 5; am L 2001, c 246, 2]

    Good grief lets get this MATTER settled once and for ALL!

  99. avatar
    gorefan March 3, 2012 at 1:11 pm #

    Al Halbert: Good grief lets get this MATTER settled once and for ALL!

    It is settled.

  100. avatar
    richCares March 3, 2012 at 1:11 pm #

    “Good grief lets get this MATTER settled once and for ALL!”
    it is setttled, sorry you don’t like it, it’s over!

  101. avatar
    JoZeppy March 3, 2012 at 1:15 pm #

    Al Halbert: Obama has never placed a Paper Copy of his LFBC in anyone’s hand,

    That would be a lie. It was passed among the press at the press conference, and one journalist even photographed.

    Al Halbert: Best evidence at this time resides with Hawaii as it is the Custodian of these records, which if you were familiar with the facts of the matter, it now exist as a Microfiche and not a Paper Copy.

    If you don’t know what the term “best evidence” means, you should really avoid using it. And why do you assume it only exists as microfiche? Because Sheriff Joe, who didn’t even bother contacting the state of Hawaii told you so? The state of Hawaii has confirmed that the originals are in fact kept, as paper bound volumes. So before you start accusing peopple of not being familiar with the facts (kinda like your belief that McCain every released anything, or that no one ever held a copy of the long form), you might want to actual get facts from a real source.

    Al Halbert: So the paper copy would only be a True and Correct Certified copy of what the State has in their Possession!

    The certified paper copy is an original for all legal purposes. It is prima facie evidence in any court of law. The Constitution demands that it be respected by every court, and government body in the United States.

    Al Halbert: So how can Obama be HARMED by allowing inspection by others?

    It undermines the Constitution, and the laws of the United States. That is provding that he even has the authority to let somone walk in and inspect Hawaii state archives.

    Al Halbert: Would it not bring it to a screaming halt and everyone would have to live with the consequences and we could all move just move on!

    And that is exactly what was said before he release the long form. Funny how when he did that, the birther acted the exact same way we predicted they would. By screaming forgery, and conspiracy. So again, why should we pander to an ungovernable group of anit-American malcontents that will never accept the legitimacy of a President they don’t like?

    Al Halbert: What is the problem with allowing Hawaii to release his records, after all he has already placed them in the Public Domain, has he NOT!

    And what is to be gained? Provided he can even authorize a someone to inspect the document, and ignoring the fact that it undermines our laws and Constitution to do so by not accepting a certified State document as legitimate on its face with no evidence of anything suspect, if a genuine forensic document examiner, examined the document and came out and said it’s legitimate, they would merely cry, corruption, he was paid off, threatened, etc. Look at every time the lose in court. It’s never because their case had no merits. It’s always because of a corrupt judge. So why again should anyone pander to these malcontents?

  102. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 1:16 pm #

    gorefan: Not true, reporters held the BC.

    Savanah Gunthrie of NBC News took two photos of the actual document.

    http://lockerz.com/s/96540937

    http://lockerz.com/s/96540721

    She even felt the raised seal”.

    Their is only one problem with that, I will check Hawaii State Statute and get back to you, most states do not use a raised seal anymore, they use an ink seal as shown on the BC. This because the raised seal cannot be copied by copiers, so as I said most states have gone to an inked seal!

  103. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 1:18 pm #

    JoZeppy: That would be a lie.It was passed among the press at the press conference, and one journalist even photographed.

    If you don’t know what the term “best evidence” means, you should really avoid using it.And why do you assume it only exists as microfiche?Because Sheriff Joe, who didn’t even bother contacting the state of Hawaii told you so?The state of Hawaii has confirmed that the originals are in fact kept, as paper bound volumes.So before you start accusing peopple of not being familiar with the facts (kinda like your belief that McCain every released anything, or that no one ever held a copy of the long form), you might want to actual get facts from a real source.

    The certified paper copy is an original for all legal purposes.It is prima facie evidence in any court of law.The Constitution demands that it be respected by every court, and government body in the United States.

    It undermines the Constitution, and the laws of the United States.That is provding that he even has the authority to let somone walk in and inspect Hawaii state archives.

    And that is exactly what was said before he release the long form.Funny how when he did that, the birther acted the exact same way we predicted they would.By screaming forgery, and conspiracy.So again, why should we pander to an ungovernable group of anit-American malcontents that will never accept the legitimacy of a President they don’t like?

    And what is to be gained?Provided he can even authorize a someone to inspect the document, and ignoring the fact that it undermines our laws and Constitution to do so by not accepting a certified State document as legitimate on its face with no evidence of anything suspect, if a genuine forensic document examiner, examined the document and came out and said it’s legitimate, they would merely cry, corruption, he was paid off, threatened, etc.Look at every time the lose in court.It’s never because their case had no merits.It’s always because of a corrupt judge.So why again should anyone pander to these malcontents?

    All of that verbiage but you have not countered that what I propose would END this matter, would it NOT, and it cannot harm Obama as the State of Hawaii would be the arbiter in the matter, a State Government!

  104. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 1:20 pm #

    gorefan: It is settled.

    Trust but Verify, Reagan!

  105. avatar
    richCares March 3, 2012 at 1:24 pm #

    Trust but Verify, Reagan!
    no need to, full faith and credit clause of constitution says to you “buzz of, it’s settledf”

  106. avatar
    gorefan March 3, 2012 at 1:25 pm #

    Al Halbert: Trust but Verify, Reagan!

    Reagan was born in Ireland.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:President_Reagan_in_Ballyporeen_Ireland.jpg

    And you are wrong about the raised seal in Hawaii. An embossed seal is required.

  107. avatar
    Jamese777 March 3, 2012 at 1:25 pm #

    Al Halbert: Okay- McCain is NOT the President; OBAMA is, lets have some of that FAMOUS transparency since he has already released his True and Correct copy of his BC.Allow Hawaii to release the SAME one!There is nothing wrong with verification, it is done everyday, Reagan’s famous quote when dealing with this issue “Trust but Verify” over the various SALT treaties with Russia!

    So again it would not cause Obama any harm to have Hawaii release his records would it, since he has already put them in the Public Domain?

    Let’s review, shall we.
    In 2008, when questions were raised about the President’s place of birth, the President posted a copy of his birth certificate on the internet for the whole wide world to see.
    After he posted that copy, the state of Hawaii, under a Republican adminstration, issued a confirmation statement (known in the law as an “apostile” confirming the authenticity of the birth record: October 31, 2008
    STATEMENT BY DR. CHIYOME FUKINO
    “There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawaii Revised Statutes 338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.
    “Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawaii, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.
    “No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawaii.”

    Since the above wasn’t good enough to satisfy the birthers, the state of Hawaii issued a second confirmation statement in 2009, this time declaring the president to be “a natural born American citizen.”
    July 27, 2009
    STATEMENT BY HEALTH DIRECTOR CHIYOME FUKINO, M.D.
    “I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Director of the Hawai’i State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen. I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October 2008 over eight months ago.”

    Even that wasn’t good enough for the most rabid of birthers, so President Obama asked the state of Hawaii for an exception to its policy of only issuing certified computer print out abstracts as the offical state birth certificate and he ordered a certified copy of his long form Certificate of Live Birth and posted it to the White House web site while handing out photocopies to the White House press corps at a news conference convened to announce the long form.
    Again, the state of Hawaii confirmed the authenticity of the long form:
    April 27, 2011
    HAWAII HEALTH DEPARTMENT GRANTS PRESIDENT OBAMA’S REQUEST FOR CERTIFIED COPIES OF ‘LONG FORM’ BIRTH CERTIFICATE
    HONOLULU – The Hawai’i State Health Department recently complied with a request by President Barack Obama for certified copies of his original Certificate of Live Birth, which is sometimes referred to in the media as a “long form” birth certificate.
    “We hope that issuing certified copies of the original Certificate of Live Birth to President Obama will end the numerous inquiries related to his birth in Hawai’i,” Hawai’i Health Director Loretta Fuddy said. “I have seen the original records filed at the Department of Health and attest to the authenticity of the certified copies the department provided to the President that further prove the fact that he was born in Hawai’i.”

    Still that wasn’t enough for the birthers and nothing will EVER be enough for the birthers so my opinion is that the administration should simply ignore them going forward. The administration’s attorneys should show up in Court when it is required and continue to argue for pre-trial dismissals of all birther related legal action. Thus far, there have been resolutions to 175 lawsuits and state ballot challenge administrative hearings. President Obama has prevailed as being eligible as a natural born citizen in 180 legal actions. The birthers are yet to have a victory.
    That’s 99 original jurisdiction courts; 50 state and federal appellate courts; 18 appeals at the Supreme Court of the United States; and 13 state ballot challenges.

  108. avatar
    JoZeppy March 3, 2012 at 1:27 pm #

    Al Halbert: Hawaii Statute 338-18 allow for the following;

    And where exactly do you find that he can relieve the state from their duty not to disclose? None of your examples would relieve the state from the duty to not disclose. Those with a direct and tangible interest is defined in the very section you quoted. Nowhere does it say that the individual has the power to add to that list.

    Al Halbert: (2) A governmental agency or organization who for a legitimate government purpose maintains and needs to update official lists of persons in the ordinary course of the agency’s or organization’s activities;

    And what government agency would be updating an official list of anything? It’s inapplicable to what you suggest.

    Al Halbert: (3) A governmental, private, social, or educational agency or organization who seeks confirmation of a certified copy of any such record submitted in support of or information provided about a vital event relating to any such record and contained in an official application made in the ordinary course of the agency’s or organization’s activities by an individual seeking employment with, entrance to, or the services or products of the agency or organization;
    (4) A private or government attorney who seeks to confirm information about a vital event relating to any such record which was acquired during the course of or for purposes of legal proceedings; or

    And the state of Hawaii is on the record that confirmation consists of you providing a copy of the document, and them confirming it as legitimate. Nowhere does it say that an individual can waive the limits of who can get the document, or that anyone can access the original.

  109. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 1:29 pm #

    JoZeppy: That would be a lie.It was passed among the press at the press conference, and one journalist even photographed.

    And what is to be gained?Provided he can even authorize a someone to inspect the document, and ignoring the fact that it undermines our laws and Constitution to do so by not accepting a certified State document as legitimate on its face with no evidence of anything suspect, if a genuine forensic document examiner, examined the document and came out and said it’s legitimate, they would merely cry, corruption, he was paid off, threatened, etc.Look at every time the lose in court.It’s never because their case had no merits.It’s always because of a corrupt judge.So why again should anyone pander to these malcontents?

    A straw man argument, we will never until it happens? Questioning authority is an old tradition in this Nation and what gave the Freedom we have today, that we dared question King George and free ourselves from “the long train of abuses” that is part of the Declaration of Independence. Hawaii Statute 338-18 allows the release of this information!

    No One has refuted that what I propose is illegal, immoral, or would intimidate anyone, it would however end the MATTER would it not, no one has refuted that either, what are you all afraid of! Could it be he actually has a BC by Affidavit, that would be devastating.

    For crying out loud they had Congressional Hearings and a Senate Resolution for McCain, all I am asking for is the State of Hawaii to be allowed to release their information, the very basis for Reason!

  110. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 3, 2012 at 1:34 pm #

    JoZeppy: That is provding that he even has the authority to let somone walk in and inspect Hawaii state archives.

    And, of course, were a tag team of birthers allowed to view the original piece of paper in the binder they would simply say it was a forgery……inserted by agents of the giant, all seeing, all powerful Obama birth conspiracy.

    This will never end for them.

  111. avatar
    Jamese777 March 3, 2012 at 1:35 pm #

    I negelected to mention that the former REPUBLICAN Governor of Hawaii, Linda Lingle also confirmed the President’s place of birth and Governor Lingle was a person who delivered one of Sarah Palin’s endorsement speeches at the Republican National Convention in 2008:
    Governor Lingle said: “You know, during the campaign of 2008, I was actually in the mainland campaigning for Sen. McCain. This issue kept coming up so much in the campaign, and again I think it’s one of those issues that is simply a distraction from the more critical issues that are facing the country. And so I had my health director, who is a physician by background, go personally view the birth certificate in the birth records of the Department of Health, and we issued a news release at that time saying that the president was, in fact, born at Kapi’olani Hospital in Honolulu, Hawaii. And that’s just a fact. And yet people continue to call up and e-mail and want to make it an issue. And I think it’s, again, a horrible distraction for the country by those people who continue this. … It’s been established. He was born here.”—Governor Linda Lingle (R-HI)

    If all the steps that the President has already taken to satisfy the birthers aren’t good enough, that’s just too bad and the most ardent of the president’s detractors should just be ignored going forward. If I were the President, I would tell them to go intercourse themselves. But that’s just me.
    At the long form release press conference, each member of the White House Press Corps. received a six page packet of information with all the letters between the White House and the Hawaii Department of Health and their very own photocopies of the long form and the short form COLB.

  112. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 1:35 pm #

    JoZeppy: And where exactly do you find that he can relieve the state from their duty not to disclose?None of your examples would relieve the state from the duty to not disclose.Those with a direct and tangible interest is defined in the very section you quoted. Nowhere does it say that the individual has the power to add to that list.

    And what government agency would be updating an official list of anything?It’s inapplicable to what you suggest.

    And the state of Hawaii is on the record that confirmation consists of you providing a copy of the document, and them confirming it as legitimate.Nowhere does it say that an individual can waive the limits of who can get the document, or that anyone can access the original.

    Are you SO stubborn that you honestly think Hawaii would reject Obama’s request? The statute provides for release for information to interested parties the President is considered a Government Officer or Official and he is also the subject of the information, he has already placed the information into the Public Domain, where and HOW can He be HARMED?

  113. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 1:36 pm #

    No one has refuted my initial argument debunking the premise of the Article that Mike Zullo Lied…………!!!!!!!

  114. avatar
    gorefan March 3, 2012 at 1:39 pm #

    Al Halbert: most states do not use a raised seal anymore, they use an ink seal as shown on the BC.

    Here is a recent series of posts from Dean Haskins of the Birther Summit fame on the Hawaii BC of Virgina Sunahara:.

    ——————————————————————————————————————–
    Dean Haskins February 22, 2012 at 11:27 am (Quote)#

    [snip]

    The back of the COLB is stamped, and the stamp, from that perspective, is debossed.
    ________________________________________________________________

    Dean Haskins February 22, 2012 at 11:41 am (Quote)#

    [snip]

    “The back of the COLB is stamped,” so, when reading it from the back, the letters are normal (they are backward when viewing the front of the COLB). From the back view, looking at the normal-appearing letters, the stamp is DEbossed (sunken in, rather than raised).
    ______________________________________________________________________

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/02/birther-summit-cancelled-glory-hound-blamed/#comments

  115. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 1:41 pm #

    Jamese777:
    I negelected to mention that the former REPUBLICAN Governor of Hawaii, Linda Lingle also confirmed the President’s place of birth and Governor Lingle was a person who delivered one of Sarah Palin’s endorsement speeches at the Republican National Convention in 2008:
    Governor Lingle said:“You know, during the campaign of 2008, I was actually in the mainland campaigning for Sen. McCain. This issue kept coming up so much in the campaign, and again I think it’s one of those issues that is simply a distraction from the more critical issues that are facing the country. And so I had my health director, who is a physician by background, go personally view the birth certificate in the birth records of the Department of Health, and we issued a news release at that time saying that the president was, in fact, born at Kapi’olani Hospital in Honolulu, Hawaii. And that’s just a fact. And yet people continue to call up and e-mail and want to make it an issue. And I think it’s, again, a horrible distraction for the country by those people who continue this. … It’s been established. He was born here.”—Governor Linda Lingle (R-HI)

    If all the steps that the President has already taken to satisfy the birthers aren’t good enough, that’s just too bad and the most ardent of the president’s detractors should just be ignored going forward. If I were the President, I would tell them to go intercourse themselves. But that’s just me.
    At the long form release press conference, each member of the White House Press Corps. received a six page packet of information with all the letters between the White House and the Hawaii Department of Health and their very own photocopies of the long form and the short form COLB.

    That is probably why the Nation is so DIVIDED, we have a dangerous course being set up if it is not Class Warfare, it is Income, or race, or political affiliation, Obama and the Democrats had divided this Nation not unlike the time leading up to the Civil War. Obama has not been a healer he has vilified practically every entity in the Nation at one time or another, if it’s not wall street, it is bankers, it is manufacturers taking jobs overseas, or it is religious organizations, the list is endless. Yes continue in the direction as we all circle the bowl as we are being divided and conquered, by division politics!

  116. avatar
    Daniel March 3, 2012 at 1:41 pm #

    Why is it that birthers equate “I don’t like what you have to say, so I will ignore that you said it” with “No one has refuted my initial argument debunking the premise…”?

  117. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 1:44 pm #

    Again;

    No one has refuted my initial argument debunking the premise of the Article that Mike Zullo Lied…………!!!!!!!

  118. avatar
    Daniel March 3, 2012 at 1:45 pm #

    Al Halbert: then everyone can give a sigh of relief and be done with this ONCE and for ALL?

    Except it wouldn’t be. If birthers were given exactly what they want, they would simply shift the goalposts again. How do we know?

    “All we need is a Hawaiian Birth Certificate and we can lay this to rest.”

    >>shows COLB

    “Just show us the long form and this will all be over.”

    >>shows LFBC

    “Just let us see the original in the vault, and we’ll be happy”

    Really?

  119. avatar
    Scientist March 3, 2012 at 1:45 pm #

    Al Halbert: Obama and the Democrats had divided this Nation not unlike the time leading up to the Civil War.

    Thank goodness the right wing hasn’t engaged in such tactics. I mean, imagine if Rush Limbaugh were to label a young woman who wants access to birth control a slut and a prostitute. Fortunately, Rush would never do that and if he did, Republicans would take the lead in condemning him in the strongest possible terms.

  120. avatar
    Daniel March 3, 2012 at 1:47 pm #

    Al Halbert: Why is it that birthers equate “I don’t like what you have to say, so I will ignore that you said it” with “No one has refuted my initial argument debunking the premise…”?

    Why is it that birthers equate “I don’t like what you have to say, so I will ignore that you said it” with “No one has refuted my initial argument debunking the premise…”?

  121. avatar
    gorefan March 3, 2012 at 1:48 pm #

    I didn’t know i was required too.

    By the way if you look at Savanah Gunthrie’s photos, you will see that the information on the pdf matches the information on the certified copy.

    there is your verification.

  122. avatar
    Scientist March 3, 2012 at 1:48 pm #

    Tell you what Al, when Mitt Rmoney shows his birth certificate then come back and we’ll talk. Till then it’s Obama 2 birth certificates, Rmoney 0

  123. avatar
    Daniel March 3, 2012 at 1:49 pm #

    Al Halbert:
    Again;

    No one has refuted my initial argument debunking the premise of the Article that Mike Zullo Lied…………!!!!!!!

    Why is it that birthers equate “I don’t like what you have to say, so I will ignore that you said it” with “No one has refuted my initial argument debunking the premise…”?

  124. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 1:50 pm #

    Again;

    No one has refuted my initial argument debunking the premise of the Article that Mike Zullo Lied…………!!!!!!!

    A subsequent law, enacted in 1955, reaffirmed the fact that original Hawaiian birth certificates were given only to persons believed to be born in Hawaii. But the 1955 law allowed Hawaii to issue a birth certificate to a child whose actual place of birth was not independently confirmed by a non-family member.

    In 1961, if a person was born in Hawaii but not attended by a physician or midwife, then all that was required was that one of the parents send in a birth certificate to be filed. The birth certificate could be filed by mail. There appears to have been no requirement for the parent to actually physically appear before “the local registrar of the district.” It would have been very easy for a relative to forge an absent parent’s signature to a form and mail it in. In addition, if a claim was made that “neither parent of the newborn child whose birth is unattended as above provided is able to prepare a birth certificate, the local registrar shall secure the necessary information from any person having knowledge of the birth and prepare and file the certificate.” (Section 57-8 & 9)

  125. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 1:51 pm #

    Daniel: Why is it that birthers equate “I don’t like what you have to say, so I will ignore that you said it” with “No one has refuted my initial argument debunking the premise…”?

    Act 96 of Laws of the Territory of Hawaii was adopted in 1911. Under this Act, original Hawaiian birth certificates were issued only to individuals who were believed to be born in Hawaii:

    The Secretary of Hawaii may, whenever satisfied that any person was born within the Hawaiian Islands, cause to be issued to such person a certificate showing such fact. (pp 127-128, Laws of the Territory of Hawaii)

    A subsequent law, enacted in 1955, reaffirmed the fact that original Hawaiian birth certificates were given only to persons believed to be born in Hawaii. But the 1955 law allowed Hawaii to issue a birth certificate to a child whose actual place of birth was not independently confirmed by a non-family member.

    In 1961, if a person was born in Hawaii but not attended by a physician or midwife, then all that was required was that one of the parents send in a birth certificate to be filed. The birth certificate could be filed by mail. There appears to have been no requirement for the parent to actually physically appear before “the local registrar of the district.” It would have been very easy for a relative to forge an absent parent’s signature to a form and mail it in. In addition, if a claim was made that “neither parent of the newborn child whose birth is unattended as above provided is able to prepare a birth certificate, the local registrar shall secure the necessary information from any person having knowledge of the birth and prepare and file the certificate.” (Section 57-8 & 9)

  126. avatar
    ellen March 3, 2012 at 1:51 pm #

    Al Halbert said: “That is probably why the Nation is so DIVIDED, we have a dangerous course being set up if it is not Class Warfare, it is Income, or race, or political affiliation, Obama and the Democrats had divided this Nation not unlike the time leading up to the Civil War..”

    Are you saying that the nation is divided because a Republican governor (and two Republican officials and some Democrat officials as well) stated that Obama was in fact born in Hawaii as his birth certificate and the notices in the Hawaii newspaper says?

    Is that the reason we are divided? IS the fact that Republican and Democrat officials stated what they saw evidence of us being divided?

    At one time were were divided into “wets” and “drys.” And at another time into pro-union and anti-union, and now we are divided into pro-choice and pro-life factions. But the fact that Obama has shown his birth certificate (twice) and that the officials in Hawaii have confirmed the facts on it, is not one of the divisions.

  127. avatar
    Scientist March 3, 2012 at 1:55 pm #

    Where is Rmoney’s b.c.? What do Michigan laws say? Could he have been born in Canada, which is just across the river, connected by a bridge and a tunnel?

    Answers:
    He doesn’t have one as far we know
    I don’t know, but I bet Michigan issues b.c’s to anyone
    Yes, Mitt even owns a house in Canada. And he strapped his dog on the roof of hiis car to drive there.

  128. avatar
    JoZeppy March 3, 2012 at 1:56 pm #

    Al Halbert: Are you SO stubborn that you honestly think Hawaii would reject Obama’s request?

    If it violates the laws of Hawaii, YES they would reject his request.

    Al Halbert: The statute provides for release for information to interested parties the President is considered a Government Officer or Official and he is also the subject of the information,

    Which is why they issued him a copy of the document, as the statute provides. Nowhere does the statute state that he can waive the limites of the statute as you suggest.

    Al Halbert: he has already placed the information into the Public Domain, where and HOW can He be HARMED?

    What the President does with his personal copy of document is all irrelevent to the limits the statue puts on the state as to who can access the document. Equally irrelevant is any quesiton of harm. The law clearly states who can be provided with the document, and under what conditions the state will provide confirmation of a copy of the document. Why do you expect the state to just violate its own laws because you’re a whiney malcontent.

  129. avatar
    Daniel March 3, 2012 at 1:58 pm #

    Al Halbert: Again;

    No one has refuted my initial argument debunking the premise of the Article that Mike Zullo Lied…………!!!!!!!

    Again; Why is it that birthers equate “I don’t like what you have to say, so I will ignore that you said it” with “No one has refuted my initial argument debunking the premise…”?

  130. avatar
    ellen March 3, 2012 at 2:01 pm #

    Al Halbert said: “In 1961, if a person was born in Hawaii but not attended by a physician or midwife, then all that was required was that one of the parents send in a birth certificate to be filed. The birth certificate could be filed by mail.”

    I understand, from the investigation of the PUMA Lori, that what you said in this statement is not true, and that whenever there was a claim of a birth outside of a hospital in Hawaii, the government insisted on signed witness statements.

  131. avatar
    gorefan March 3, 2012 at 2:01 pm #

    Al Halbert: In 1961, if a person was born in Hawaii but not attended by a physician or midwife, then all that was required was that one of the parents send in a birth certificate to be filed. The birth certificate could be filed by mail.

    None of that applies to the President.

    There would not be a doctors or hospital name on the BC.

    Note what the doctor certifies by his signature:

    “I hereby certify that this child was born alive on the date and hour stated above.”

    Note what it says about the Hospital:

    “6c. Name of Hospital or Institution (if not hospital or institution, give address)”

    Those two facts alone preculde the possiblity that this was a “BC by Affidavit”.

    The doctor certified the date and hour of birth. Not possible if he wasn’t there. And the midwife box is not checked.

    The hospital name would not be in box 6c if he was not born there.

  132. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 2:03 pm #

    ellen:
    Al Halbertsaid: “That is probably why the Nation is so DIVIDED, we have a dangerous course being set up if it is not Class Warfare, it is Income, or race, or political affiliation, Obama and the Democrats had divided this Nation not unlike the time leading up to the Civil War..”

    Are you saying that the nation is divided because a Republican governor (and two Republican officials and some Democrat officials as well) stated that Obama was in fact born in Hawaii as his birth certificate and the notices in the Hawaii newspaper says?

    Is that the reason we are divided? IS the fact that Republican and Democrat officials stated what they saw evidence of us being divided?

    At one time were were divided into “wets” and “drys.” And at another time into pro-union and anti-union, and now we are divided into pro-choice and pro-life factions. But the fact that Obama has shown his birth certificate (twice) and that the officials in Hawaii have confirmed the facts on it, is not one of the divisions.

    Well over 50% of the Nation has lingering doubts, and yes the Constitutional issue should be definitively determined by 3rd party verification, this is a serious issues only settled for the Presidents supporters, the rest of the Nation, well too BAD!

  133. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 3, 2012 at 2:04 pm #

    Al Halbert: Good grief lets get this MATTER settled once and for ALL!

    What would settle it for you? Set aside, for the sake of discussion, all the other issues and tell us exactly what would have to happen….step by step…..to settle the MATTER for you.

  134. avatar
    Greenfinches March 3, 2012 at 2:08 pm #

    hasn’t Al got enough troll points yet, Doc?

    He is very dull, and adds no more amusement to our lives – and pays no attention at all to anything said.

    Ok he isn’t offensive (yet?) but still……….

  135. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 2:08 pm #

    gorefan: None of that applies to the President.

    There would not be a doctors or hospital name on the BC.

    Note what the doctor certifies by his signature:

    “I hereby certify that this child was born alive on the date and hour stated above.”

    Note what it says about the Hospital:

    “6c. Name of Hospital or Institution (if not hospital or institution, give address)”

    Those two facts alone preculde the possiblity that this was a “BC by Affidavit”.

    The doctor certified the date and hour of birth.Not possible if he wasn’t there.And the midwife box is not checked.

    The hospital name would not be in box 6c if he was not born there.

    Look I have made a plausible argument that is predicated on LAW that he could have another type of BC. Let Obama Allow Hawaii to release his vital statical data for 3rd party review, he has already released his True and Certified copy so it will HARM no one and every one will have to let the chips fall they may, after all if we can’t Trust a State Government we have really gone to HELL. Presidents can and do LIE, Nixon and Clinton being two that excelled at it and State officials as well, so let him put his MONEY where his mouth is just release the damn thing!

  136. avatar
    JoZeppy March 3, 2012 at 2:10 pm #

    Al Halbert: Their is only one problem with that, I will check Hawaii State Statute and get back to you, most states do not use a raised seal anymore, they use an ink seal as shown on the BC. This because the raised seal cannot be copied by copiers, so as I said most states have gone to an inked seal!

    Really, that’s odd, since an ink seal is insufficent to get a passport. You see the whole point of requring is a raised seal is so that it is easy to differentiate from a copy and more difficult to copy. And since you say most state, I assume you can provide us an exact count of states that don’t use the reaised seal. You can skip checking New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Maryland, since I have recently obtained copies from those states, and they all had raised seals. And of course, we can add to the list the fact that every birth certificate from the state of Hawaii ever produced contains a raised seal, we can dismiss your protestation as complete and utter BS

    But hey, you’re already shown you have no problem making up things as you go.

  137. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 2:11 pm #

    Greenfinches:
    hasn’t Al got enough troll points yet, Doc?

    He is very dull, and adds no more amusement to our lives – and pays no attention at all to anything said.

    Ok he isn’t offensive (yet?) but still……….

    Ah the ridicule has begun, which is just the refuge of a troubled and quarrelsome mind!

  138. avatar
    Greenfinches March 3, 2012 at 2:15 pm #

    Al Halbert: Ah the ridicule has begun, which is just the refuge of a troubled and quarrelsome mind!

    So the offensiveness begins…. and if he thinks he has been subject to ridicule already, well……………

  139. avatar
    Majority Will March 3, 2012 at 2:17 pm #

    Al Halbert: just release the damn thing!

    To whom?

    You’ve ranted already about trusting no one.

    You must have the perfect “3rd party” in mind for “review”, right?

  140. avatar
    Daniel March 3, 2012 at 2:17 pm #

    Al Halbert: this is a serious issues only settled for the Presidents supporters, the rest of the Nation, well too BAD!

    I am not an Obama supporter. Myself and all the other Republicans and Conservatives I know, and the opinions of most Republicans stated over and over again in all major media, is that this is simply not an issue, since the current President is eligible.

    Those of us who do not support Obama are doing are best to make sure he does not win a second term, despite the birther lunatics who are trying their best to get him re-elected.

  141. avatar
    ellen March 3, 2012 at 2:17 pm #

    Al Halbert said “Well over 50% of the Nation has lingering doubts, and yes the Constitutional issue should be definitively determined by 3rd party verification, this is a serious issues only settled for the Presidents supporters, the rest of the Nation, well too BAD!

    You are using a dated poll. A May 2011 Gallup poll found that doubts persisted among 13% of Americans and 23% of Republicans. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories)

    Now, is 13% a big percent? It is down a lot from the 50% you cite (which was apparently a WND poll) and also down from the “at least a quarter” in the polls cited by Wikipedia for 2010.

    And it is less than half the 27% of Americans who have said that they believe in ghosts.

    Divided?

  142. avatar
    JoZeppy March 3, 2012 at 2:18 pm #

    Al Halbert: , after all if we can’t Trust a State Government we have really gone to HELL.

    The state has already said he was born in Hawaii….so perhaps you should just move on?

    Al Halbert: so let him put his MONEY where his mouth is just release the damn thing!

    He already has. Twice. Two more times than any other President in US history. Again, perhaps you should just accept reality.

  143. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 2:18 pm #

    JoZeppy: Really, that’s odd, since an ink seal is insufficent to get a passport. You see the whole point of requring is a raised seal is so that it is easy to differentiate from a copy and more difficult to copy.And since you say most state, I assume you can provide us an exact count of states that don’t use the reaised seal.You can skip checking New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Maryland, since I have recently obtained copies from those states, and they all had raised seals.And of course, we can add to the list the fact that every birth certificate from the state of Hawaii ever produced contains a raised seal, we can dismiss your protestation as complete and utter BS

    But hey, you’re already shown you have no problem making up things as you go.

    338-19 Photostatic or typewritten copies of records. The department of health is authorized to prepare typewritten, photostatic, or microphotographic copies of any records and files in its office, which by reason of age, usage, or otherwise are in such condition that they can no longer be conveniently consulted or used without danger of serious injury or destruction thereof, and to certify to the correctness of such copies. The typewritten, photostatic, or microphotographic copies shall be competent evidence in all courts of the State with like force and effect as the original. [L 1949, c 327, 23; RL 1955, 57-22; am L 1957, c 8, 1; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, 19; HRS 338-19]

    Section 338 seems to be silent on the seal portion of the document, you are welcome to review all of Hawaii Statute 338 if you like.

  144. avatar
    Scientist March 3, 2012 at 2:19 pm #

    Al Halbert: so let Rmoney put his MONEY where his mouth is just release the damn thing!

    Yes, Mitt, please release me, let me go, for I don’t love you anymore
    To live a lie would be a sin,
    Release, it Mitt, and let me love again

  145. avatar
    gorefan March 3, 2012 at 2:22 pm #

    Al Halbert: Look I have made a plausible argument

    Your argument is not plausible. He has released a certified copy of his BC. It was phographed by independent reporters. Dr. Onaka stamped it as a true and accurate copy of the vital record. The Director attached a signed letter that she witnessed the coping and Dr. Onaka’s signature.

    His birth was attended by Dr. Sinclair and he was born at Kapiolani Hospital, those facts cannot be disputed.

    There is not a single solitary shred of evidence that Dr Fuudy or Dr. Onaka are lying.

    Get some evidence that someone is lying about the BC and then maybe your argument becomes plausible.

    Based on your definition of plausible, I can make a plausible argument that Reagan was born in Ireland and that Bush had advanced knowledge of the 9/11 attacks.

  146. avatar
    Majority Will March 3, 2012 at 2:25 pm #

    Al Halbert: Ah the ridicule has begun, which is just the refuge of a troubled and quarrelsome mind!

    Speaking of ridicule . . .

    “When has a president ever been asked to prove his citizenship?”

    – Andrew Breitbart

  147. avatar
    JoZeppy March 3, 2012 at 2:26 pm #

    Al Halbert: Look I have made a plausible argument that is predicated on LAW that he could have another type of BC.

    Except for the fact that the every bit of evidence shows he was born in a hospital and totally undermines your whole argument (and of couse, you have no evidence to counter). What you said is if we ignore the fact that there is a doctor’s signature on the certified copy of the birth certificate, and if we call the President’s now deceased mother and grandmother liars and criminals, despite not having any evidence to support your contentions, and if we accept a wholly unplausible story that an 18 year old white girl from Kansas will fly all alone, across the planet (a severl day trip requiring multiple layovers, flight changes, and road travel across questionable conditions), to give birth on the opposite side of the third world country from where her husband’s family lives…then perhaps you have an agrument. Ahhh…I can see why you are so concerned.

  148. avatar
    JoZeppy March 3, 2012 at 2:35 pm #

    Al Halbert: 338-19Photostatic or typewritten copies of records.The department of health is authorized to prepare typewritten, photostatic, or microphotographic copies of any records and files in its office, which by reason of age, usage, or otherwise are in such condition that they can no longer be conveniently consulted or used without danger of serious injury or destruction thereof, and to certify to the correctness of such copies.The typewritten, photostatic, or microphotographic copies shall be competent evidence in all courts of the State with like force and effect as the original. [L 1949, c 327, 23; RL 1955, 57-22; am L 1957, c 8, 1; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, 19; HRS 338-19]

    Section 338 seems to be silent on the seal portion of the document, you are welcome to review all of Hawaii Statute 338 if you like.

    Actually, since you’re the one who made the contention that the raised seal is a problem, it is you who carries the burden to show that Hawaii doesn’t use a raissed seal. There are several Hawaii BC on the internets (mostly put forward by birthers). All with raised seals. So all evidence seen thus far supports a raised seal. You are the first to claim otherwise, so you are making a novel, wholly unsupported challenge. So you are the accuser, who carries the burden. Please pony up your evidence.

  149. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 2:50 pm #

    I have debunked the premise of the Article about Mike Zullo having lied, I have shown the Hawaii State Statutes that were in effect at that time in 1961 at the time of Obama’s birth, no one has disputed or contradicted this. And proven how a 3 year old could be given a Birth Certificate that states any other date then their real birth date!

    Furthermore, I have also given a reasonable conjecture given the latest evidence regarding the LFBC and the Selective Service Card have been declared a Forgery by Maricopa County Duly appointed Officers under the Laws of Arizona and their Constitution. My hypothesis is that given the current state of the Privacy Laws that Hawaii is Barred from giving pertinent definitive information on our Presidents BC. I have also proposed to end this Matter in a definitive manner by release of the information by Hawaiian DOH under State Statute 338-18 by a request from our President which I am responsibly assured would be honored; to release their information which is in micro photographic form for 3rd party verification.

    I have also presented that since Obama has already released his True and Certified copy per Hawaii 338-19 that he cannot be harmed by this in any way, shape or form since he has already placed all the statical data that the certificate contains into the Public Domain. The only people that will be harmed by this is the “Birthers” as most all have proclaimed he has already done and will be redundant, so the birthers are the ones that have something to lose, NOT Obama. This mess was created by Obama in the first placed when it took him 6 months to release his COLB, then and additional 2 years to release his LFBC.

    So for the life of me I cannot understand any rational objection to my proposal unless most of you are really scared that he has indeed allowed someone to provide him with fraudulent documents as determined by duly appointed law enforcement personnel. This investigation by Maricopa County is the first time any real law enforcement scrutiny has been applied to the Obama Nativity. After all there were Congressional Hearings and a Senate resolution for McCain to be cleared, is this so much to ask?

    Since their is the possibility that things are not as Obama has claimed and I have proven how this could have come to be, a serious dialog needs to be undertaken to bring our President out from under this CLOUD. You can refuse to accept what the findings are however this is a serious criminal allegation and deserves to be investigated to it’s logical conclusion wherever that may be. I have only proposed how to short cut this to end the mater immediately, though have been given rejection at every turn. So what is all of the proponents detractors of verification afraid of? I suggest they should welcome the scrutiny and then have a really good laugh at all the Birthers and…..

  150. avatar
    gorefan March 3, 2012 at 2:52 pm #

    Al Halbert: Section 338 seems to be silent on the seal portion of the document, you are welcome to review all of Hawaii Statute 338 if you like.

    Not all of the regulations for the Department of Health are contained in the 338. There are also the Administrative Regulations.

    “11-1-2 Seal of the department of health.”
    “a) The official seal of the department of health shall be circular in shape, two and one-fourth inches in diameter. At the curve on the top portion there shall be the words “DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH” and at the curve on the bottom portion there shall be the words “STATE OF HAWAII.” At the curve on each side portion shall be a star. In the center of the seal shall be the Caduceus, a winged rod entwined with two serpents, which has long been recognized as a universal symbol of medicine. The Caduceus shall be encircled by an indentation, which shall separate it from the words “DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH” and “STATE OF HAWAII.” For illustrative purposes, a black and white drawing of the official seal is attached at the end of this section as Exhibit “A,” titled “Seal of the Department of Health,” and dated November 1, 1988, and made a part of this section.”

    (b) The official seal of the department of health shall be embossed near the signature of the director of health to verify commissions of appointment of deputy directors and notaries public, certificates, and other formal official documents on which the official seal has been customarily used or is appropriate to be used, as the director of health may determine on a case-by-case basis.

    So this is further proof that the seal felt by Savanah Gunthrie was on the certifed copy of the President’s BC.

  151. avatar
    Daniel March 3, 2012 at 2:53 pm #

    Al Halbert: I have debunked the premise of the Article about Mike Zullo having lied, I have shown the Hawaii State Statutes that were in effect at that time in 1961 at the time of Obama’s birth, no one has disputed or contradicted this. And proven how a 3 year old could be given a Birth Certificate that states any other date then their real birth date!

    I’m sure you really believe that you have…. sadly….

    So when are you going to put your money where your mouth is and take a copy of the report and march right into your local AG office and demand the arrest of the President?

  152. avatar
    gorefan March 3, 2012 at 2:56 pm #

    You have yet to debunk the fact that President could not have been born anywhere but at Kapiolani Hospital or that Dr. Simclair was the attending physician.

    You have yet to show that anyone hjas lied about the certified copy of the President’s BC.

    It is not only “things that Obama” has claimed but aslo certified by Dr. Onaka and Directors Fukino and Fuddy. To date every piece of evidence about the President’s birth narrative have been shown to backup his recollections and the recollections of those who knew him growing up.

  153. avatar
    gorefan March 3, 2012 at 3:00 pm #

    If this was a true law enforcement investigation, than why did they not contact the state of Hawaii to verify the facts that are on the BC? Isn’t that the first place that a real investigation would start, with the authority who created the certified copy?

  154. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 3:01 pm #

    gorefan: Not all of the regulations for the Department of Health are contained in the 338.There are also the Administrative Regulations.

    “11-1-2 Seal of the department of health.”
    “a) The official seal of the department of health shall be circular in shape, two and one-fourth inches in diameter. At the curve on the top portion there shall be the words “DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH” and at the curve on the bottom portion there shall be the words “STATE OF HAWAII.” At the curve on each side portion shall be a star. In the center of the seal shall be the Caduceus, a winged rod entwined with two serpents, which has long been recognized as a universal symbol of medicine. The Caduceus shall be encircled by an indentation, which shall separate it from the words “DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH” and “STATE OF HAWAII.” For illustrative purposes, a black and white drawing of the official seal is attached at the end of this section as Exhibit “A,” titled “Seal of the Department of Health,” and dated November 1, 1988, and made a part of this section.”

    (b) The official seal of the department of health shall be embossed near the signature of the director of health to verify commissions of appointment of deputy directors andnotaries public, certificates, and other formal official documents on which the official seal has been customarily used or is appropriate to be used, as the director of health may determine on a case-by-case basis.

    So this is further proof that the seal felt by Savanah Gunthrie was on the certifed copy of the President’s BC.

    Thank you I stand corrected on the seal; Savanah Gutherie is not a Forensic Document Expert her option is simply subjective not objective as a definitive of an expert would be. Is it really so unreasonable to have Hawaii release their archives for examination. After all McCain was subjected to Congressional Hearings and a Senate Resolution, it seem almost petty in comparison don’t you think? After all Obama has already released his True and Certified copy, he cannot be harmed in any way, shape for manner!

  155. avatar
    Majority Will March 3, 2012 at 3:01 pm #

    Al Halbert: 3rd party verification.

    Who is this trusted “3rd party”?

    You do have the answer, right?

    Why are you dodging this question?

  156. avatar
    Majority Will March 3, 2012 at 3:03 pm #

    Al Halbert: After all McCain was subjected to Congressional Hearings and a Senate Resolution

    Was Senator McCain required to provide the vault version or any copy of his birth certificate?

    Was this a binding or non-binding Senate Resolution?

  157. avatar
    richCares March 3, 2012 at 3:08 pm #

    “So for the life of me I cannot understand any rational objection to my proposal unless …”
    your kidding right, you can’t be serious, only birthers are unconvinced and nothing will change that (proof is your comments)

  158. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 3:08 pm #

    gorefan:
    If this was a true law enforcement investigation, than why did they not contact the state of Hawaii to verify the facts that are on the BC?Isn’t that the first place that a real investigation would start, with the authority who created the certified copy?

    I cannot speak for them, however; the evidence was provided by Obama on White House dot gov, they rendered their opinion on that Document which had been touted to be a true and direct copy of the original for any and all being able to download it. I have even done so today as well, sadly it has problems.

    I am sure they would revel in being allowed to examine the original that Obama holds. The Seal under Hawaii State Law 338-19 bear witness to all that this is a Bona Fide document, they do not need to contact them, as the testament of Obama is that this is what he purports it to be, again it was lacking in substance.

  159. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 3:10 pm #

    richCares:
    “So for the life of me I cannot understand any rational objection to my proposal unless …”
    your kidding right, you can’t be serious, only birthers are unconvinced and nothing will change that (proof is your comments)

    Then PROVE it conclusively as I have proposed, your statement is just opinion, I propose to take this matter into the realm of FACTS!

  160. avatar
    Scientist March 3, 2012 at 3:12 pm #

    Al Halbert: the LFBC and the Selective Service Card have been declared a Forgery by Maricopa County Duly appointed Officers under the Laws of Arizona and their Constitution.

    They are NOT Officers. They were a privately-funded bunch of nobodies. Let them get an indictment if they are actual law enforcement. Otherwise, no one cares.

  161. avatar
    Scientist March 3, 2012 at 3:13 pm #

    Al Halbert: I am sure they would revel in being allowed to examine the original that Obama holds

    They can go pound salt. Obama will be re-elected. You will NOT get a pony.

  162. avatar
    Majority Will March 3, 2012 at 3:14 pm #

    Al Halbert: Then PROVE it conclusively as I have proposed, your statement is just opinion, I propose to take this matter into the realm of FACTS!

    From which other candidates have you demanded original birth records?

  163. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 3, 2012 at 3:16 pm #

    I don’t understand why you cite this particular statute provision, which seems to me completely irrelevant to anything related to President Obama. This section makes special provision for copies of records: “by reason of age, usage, or otherwise are in such condition that they can no longer be conveniently consulted or used without danger of serious injury or destruction thereof.”

    There’s is no suggestion that President Obama’s birth certificate is fragile and would be damaged if used.

    The better citation is the one directly applicable to certified copies:

    338-13 Certified copies. (a) Subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18, the department of health shall, upon request, furnish to any applicant a certified copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof.

    (b) Copies of the contents of any certificate on file in the department, certified by the department shall be considered for all purposes the same as the original, subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18.

    (c) Copies may be made by photography, dry copy reproduction, typing, computer printout or other process approved by the director of health.

    The process of certification and the requirements for certification are not in the statute but in regulations promulgated by the Director under the statute. The regulations, which are current, but quite old, state:

    Form of certification. Standard certified copies shall contain an appropriate certification statement over the signature of the registrar having custody of the record and be impressed with the raised seal of the issuing office. The signature may be photographed or entered by mechanical means. The paper shall display the official of the Department of Health or the seal of the State.

    Public Health Regulations, Department of Health, State of Hawaii, Chapter 8B 2.4.B(1)(b).

    That can be found on PDF page 19 of this file.

    Now exactly what does this discussion have to do with registration of foreign births?

    Al Halbert: 338-19 Photostatic or typewritten copies of records.

  164. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 3:18 pm #

    Majority Will: Who is this trusted “3rd party”?

    You do have the answer, right?

    Why are you dodging this question?

    If the State of Hawaii is released from their privacy obligation any interested party could then arrange either receive a Certified copy or verify their archive, these Forensic investigators are licensed by State and even some Federal authorities, what is the harm in that? The State could even place a reasonable limit and arrange for all interested parties to come forward and create a impartial panel to end the issue for once and for all!

    This is not unreasonable given the gravity of the situation and the doubt this criminal allegation now brings to the table. Their is one other avenue others are probably contemplating as we speak, and that is the legal route, their is now a credible criminal allegation being made by a credible law enforcement agency they can now either through seeking a subpoena to access this archive under Hawaii 338-18. Others can also seek a courts approval now under the very same statute!

  165. avatar
    gorefan March 3, 2012 at 3:26 pm #

    Al Halbert: After all McCain was subjected to Congressional Hearings

    Please cite a source for the hearings.

  166. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 3:28 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I don’t understand why you cite this particular statute provision, which seems to me completely irrelevant to anything related to President Obama. This section makes special provision for copies of records: “by reason of age, usage, or otherwise are in such condition that they can no longer be conveniently consulted or used without danger of serious injury or destruction thereof.”

    There’s is no suggestion that President Obama’s birth certificate is fragile and would be damaged if used.

    The better citation is the one directly applicable to certified copies:

    The process of certification and the requirements for certification are not in the statute but in regulations promulgated by the Director under the statute. The regulations, which are current, but quite old, state:

    That can be found on PDF page 19 of this file.

    I believe 338-19 would be even better as the archive is now a microphotographic and would be certified by whatever statute regulates that after certificates were produced from them! The Obama BC is on microfiche and would need to be authenticated which is easily done, it is also conclusive, as it would be very difficult to alter or forge without leaving evidence of such. After all we now have a Criminal Allegation; much needs to be done to answer this charge. If it is just ignored and swept under the rug, history will not be kind to that kind of resolution and Obama and the Nation will have to live under that stain for rest of his life if not answered in the affirmative!

  167. avatar
    JoZeppy March 3, 2012 at 3:29 pm #

    Al Halbert: Thank you I stand corrected on the seal; Savanah Gutherie is not a Forensic Document Expert her option is simply subjective not objective as a definitive of an expert would be.

    Actually, absent evidence that there is any reason that this document should not be relied on, there is no need for a forensic document examiner. Under law, the document is self authenticating and presumed reliable. Why do you have such contempt for the laws and constitution of this country? Do you really hate our country that much?

    Al Halbert: Is it really so unreasonable to have Hawaii release their archives for examination.

    Actually, it is. You have provided no evidence that the document is not reliable, no evidence that the President was born anywhere else, and not even a reasonable explanation or narrative of how the President could be born anywhere else. So why should the President be required to “re-prove” something over and over, when you can’t even provide a shred of evidence to counter what has already been provided?

    Al Halbert: After all McCain was subjected to Congressional Hearings and a Senate Resolution, it seem almost petty in comparison don’t you think?

    There were no hearings. Why do you presist in lying on this forum? McCain was not questioned, and he produced no evidence to anyone. The Senate asked for a statement from a pair of well known Constitutional scholars and voted unaniously on the Resolution. That was done to resolve a genuine question that is debate by legal scholars (can a statute create a natural born citizen). The two situations aren’t remotely similar. What is petty is your refusal to accept what has been clearly established years ago, based on lies and innuendo.

    Al Halbert: After all Obama has already released his True and Certified copy, he cannot be harmed in any way, shape for manner!

    What does harm have to do with anything? Why should he do anything for malconents like you? What benefit is there? We’ve already heard the “all he has to do is release the long form.” Where did that get him? He’s gone well beyond what any other president in our nation’s history has done. You already have far more than you deserve.

  168. avatar
    richCares March 3, 2012 at 3:32 pm #

    “history will not be kind to that kind of resolution and Obama and the Nation will have to live under that stain for rest of his life ”
    .
    now that is funny, do you write for the onion?

  169. avatar
    gorefan March 3, 2012 at 3:34 pm #

    Al Halbert: If the State of Hawaii is released from their privacy obligation

    We will find out in the coming weeks if in fact President Obama could release the DOH from thier privacy concerns. The case of Sunahara v. DOH is sceduled for this week. One thing the plaintiff is asking for is the right to view the original vault BC of his sister. We’ll see if the courts agree with you.

  170. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 3:35 pm #

    I have enjoyed being here today, but duty calls and I must begin my official duties for the day; as I leave I will re post my synopsis for consideration;

    I have debunked the premise of the Article about Mike Zullo having lied, I have shown the Hawaii State Statutes that were in effect at that time in 1961 at the time of Obama’s birth, no one has disputed or contradicted this. And proven how a 3 year old could be given a Birth Certificate that states any other date then their real birth date!

    Furthermore, I have also given a reasonable conjecture given the latest evidence regarding the LFBC and the Selective Service Card have been declared a Forgery by Maricopa County Duly appointed Officers under the Laws of Arizona and their Constitution. My hypothesis is that given the current state of the Privacy Laws that Hawaii is Barred from giving pertinent definitive information on our Presidents BC. I have also proposed to end this Matter in a definitive manner by release of the information by Hawaiian DOH under State Statute 338-18 by a request from our President which I am responsibly assured would be honored; to release their information which is in micro photographic form for 3rd party verification.

    I have also presented that since Obama has already released his True and Certified copy per Hawaii 338-19 that he cannot be harmed by this in any way, shape or form since he has already placed all the statical data that the certificate contains into the Public Domain. The only people that will be harmed by this is the “Birthers” as most all have proclaimed he has already done and will be redundant, so the birthers are the ones that have something to lose, NOT Obama. This mess was created by Obama in the first placed when it took him 6 months to release his COLB, then and additional 2 years to release his LFBC.

    So for the life of me I cannot understand any rational objection to my proposal unless most of you are really scared that he has indeed allowed someone to provide him with fraudulent documents as determined by duly appointed law enforcement personnel. This investigation by Maricopa County is the first time any real law enforcement scrutiny has been applied to the Obama Nativity. After all there were Congressional Hearings and a Senate resolution for McCain to be cleared, is this so much to ask?

    Since their is the possibility that things are not as Obama has claimed and I have proven how this could have come to be, a serious dialog needs to be undertaken to bring our President out from under this CLOUD. You can refuse to accept what the findings are however this is a serious criminal allegation and deserves to be investigated to it’s logical conclusion wherever that may be. I have only proposed how to short cut this to end the mater immediately, though have been given rejection at every turn. So what is all of the proponents detractors of verification afraid of? I suggest they should welcome the scrutiny and then have a really good laugh at all the Birthers and….

  171. avatar
    JoZeppy March 3, 2012 at 3:40 pm #

    Al Halbert: I believe 338-19 would be even better as the archive is now a microphotographic and would be certified by whatever statute regulates that after certificates were produced from them!

    And how exactly do you know this? Oh yeah, you make things up as you go.

  172. avatar
    JoZeppy March 3, 2012 at 3:41 pm #

    Al Halbert: I have debunked the premise of the Article about Mike Zullo having lied,

    Only in your twisted birther mind. You have debunked nothing

    (but I suppose since you live in a fact free world, you’re free to believe whatever you please)

  173. avatar
    Majority Will March 3, 2012 at 3:46 pm #

    Al Halbert: any interested party

    That’s not an answer. You deserve nothing.

  174. avatar
    Majority Will March 3, 2012 at 3:48 pm #

    Al Halbert: I have debunked

    No, what you’ve done is provide mild entertainment and nothing more.

    You deserve nothing but ridicule.

  175. avatar
    Majority Will March 3, 2012 at 3:51 pm #

    Al Halbert: After all there were Congressional Hearings and a Senate resolution for McCain to be cleared, is this so much to ask?

    No, there weren’t. There was no demand for birth records. There was a non-binding resolution which amounts to the Senate’s opinion.

    You have serious problems with revisionism, respect for the law and reality.

  176. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 3, 2012 at 4:00 pm #

    Al Halbert: Furthermore, I have also given a reasonable conjecture given the latest evidence regarding the LFBC and the Selective Service Card have been declared a Forgery by Maricopa County Duly appointed Officers under the Laws of Arizona and their Constitution

    Mike Zullo and the other members of the “Cold Case Posse” (whoever they may be) are not Arizona peace officers and have no powers beyond those or ordinary citizens.

    You do understand that, don’t you?

  177. avatar
    gorefan March 3, 2012 at 4:00 pm #

    Al Halbert: they can now either through seeking a subpoena to access this archive under Hawaii 338-18.

    All a subpoensa will get them if anything is the same thing Savanah Gunthrie held in here hands, a certified copy of President Obama’s birth certificate.

  178. avatar
    J. Potter March 3, 2012 at 4:03 pm #

    Al Halbert: duty calls and I must begin my official duties for the day; as I leave I will re post my synopsis for consideration;

    A redundant and gradiose description of laundromat hijinks!

    Re: McCain … Two people shrugging, shuffling paper, and agreeing, “Yeah, that’s about right.” does not constitute Congressional Hearings. Check the record. No, the Congressional Record.

  179. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 3, 2012 at 4:03 pm #

    Al Halbert: I have also proposed to end this Matter in a definitive manner by release of the information by Hawaiian DOH……………..

    So why do you think the “Posse” didn’t contact the White House and ask them to do just that? How about why didn’t the “Posse” contact Hawaiian officials for their thoughts and input?

    Inquiring minds want to know.

  180. avatar
    Horus March 3, 2012 at 4:12 pm #

    John: Sheriff Arpaio’s report is pretty daming as it is product of an official, legal and recognizable investigative body.

    You are truly delusional!

  181. avatar
    JoZeppy March 3, 2012 at 4:17 pm #

    Al Halbert: Furthermore, I have also given a reasonable conjecture given the latest evidence regarding the LFBC and the Selective Service Card have been declared a Forgery by Maricopa County Duly appointed Officers under the Laws of Arizona and their Constitution.

    No…you just gave unsubstantiated ranting based on lies and innuendo. And if it was delcared a forgery, where are the indicments? That is the point of any real law enforcement investigation.

    Al Halbert: This mess was created by Obama in the first placed when it took him 6 months to release his COLB, then and additional 2 years to release his LFBC

    Yes…it’s almost as bad as those nasty women that cause men to rape them.

    Al Halbert: So for the life of me I cannot understand any rational objection to my proposal unless most of you are really scared that he has indeed allowed someone to provide him with fraudulent documents as determined by duly appointed law enforcement personnel.

    You’re right, it’s not like the birthers move the bar every time they’re given what they want.

    For the life of me, I can’t understand how anyone with the slight attachment to the rational world can continue to fall for this unmitigated garbage.

    Al Halbert: After all there were Congressional Hearings and a Senate resolution for McCain to be cleared, is this so much to ask?

    You have repeated this blatent lie after being called on more than once. I suppose expecting you to be honest is too much to ask.

  182. avatar
    Greenfinches March 3, 2012 at 4:19 pm #

    Al Halbert: the LFBC and the Selective Service Card have been declared a Forgery by Maricopa County Duly appointed Officers under the Laws of Arizona and their Constitution.

    A .pdf of the LFBC has been attacked, NOT the LFBC itself. You do know the difference, right?

    Further, there have been no declarations by any ‘duly appointed’ Maricopa County officers, except Sheriff Joe – who did no research himself. The Posse had no rights other than those of any citizen, and no official status…. you understand that, do you?

    maybe not, maybe you are actually as ill-informed as you seem to be.

    and then you will wonder when you get ridiculed.

  183. avatar
    JoZeppy March 3, 2012 at 4:22 pm #

    Al Halbert: then have a really good laugh at all the Birthers

    And what do you think we all have been doing for the past 4 years?

    If you’re not laughing, you’re part of the joke.

  184. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny March 3, 2012 at 4:31 pm #

    Scientist: Neither is Arpaio.Which is why the representation of this charade as an official law enforcement investigation is as phony as a $3 bill.

    Come on, you know very well that the expression is “as queer as $3 bill with James Buchanan on it”!

  185. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 5:02 pm #

    Greenfinches: posse

    Sorry to disappoint you these are duties allowed under Arizona Law for a Member of a Posse, this include the carrying of deadly weapons if certified to do so. This is not all inclusive and is subject to the office of Sheriff for specific duties of any Posse member.

    Arizona 11-441, 8 (d)
    and to carrying a Deadly Weapon 11-441, 8 (h)
    and 28-627 A (2)
    and 23-901 (g)

  186. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 5:03 pm #

    Greenfinches: A .pdf of the LFBC has been attacked, NOT the LFBC itself.You do know the difference, right?

    Further, there have been no declarationsby any duly appointed’ Maricopa County officers, except Sheriff Joe – who did no research himself.The Posse had no rights other than those of any citizen, and no official status…. you understand that, do you?

    maybe not, maybe you are actually as ill-informed as you seem to be.

    and then you will wonder when you get ridiculed.

    Sorry to disappoint you these are duties allowed under Arizona Law for a Member of a Posse, this include the carrying of deadly weapons if certified to do so. This is not all inclusive and is subject to the office of Sheriff for specific duties of any Posse member.

    Arizona 11-441, 8 (d)
    and to carrying a Deadly Weapon 11-441, 8 (h)
    and 28-627 A (2)
    and 23-901 (g)

  187. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 3, 2012 at 5:32 pm #

    Al Halbert: Sorry to disappoint you these are duties allowed under Arizona Law for a Member of a Posse, this include the carrying of deadly weapons if certified to do so. This is not all inclusive and is subject to the office of Sheriff for specific duties of any Posse member.

    Wrong again. The sheriff has no ability to confer peace officer powers on any one.

    Each of the sections you cite talk about administrative or functional duties. Title 11 is an administrative code that deals with counties. The title 28 section says posse members can direct traffic. Wow! And title 23 deals with workers comp coverage for reserve deputies and specifically excludes non-sworn posse members.

    And, for the record, virtually anyone in Arizona can carry a weapon……openly or concealed.

  188. avatar
    y_p_w March 3, 2012 at 5:56 pm #

    JoZeppy: Really, that’s odd, since an ink seal is insufficent to get a passport. You see the whole point of requring is a raised seal is so that it is easy to differentiate from a copy and more difficult to copy.And since you say most state, I assume you can provide us an exact count of states that don’t use the reaised seal.You can skip checking New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Maryland, since I have recently obtained copies from those states, and they all had raised seals.And of course, we can add to the list the fact that every birth certificate from the state of Hawaii ever produced contains a raised seal, we can dismiss your protestation as complete and utter BS

    But hey, you’re already shown you have no problem making up things as you go.

    Not necessarily true on the ink seal. I personally haven’t seen an image of an inked seal on a certified birth certificate, but the State Dept says that a “multicolored seal” may be an acceptable certification seal. One of my college transcripts has a multicolored ink seal. It looks like it was just two colors that bled together.

    However, I have several vital documents from various cities, counties, and states. Every single one has an embossed seal, and one was even used to get a passport. It’s ludicrous to suggest (as Al does) that embossed seals aren’t acceptable, because they are the overwhelming means of “exemplifying” a vital record in the US.

  189. avatar
    Whatever4 March 3, 2012 at 5:56 pm #

    Al Halbert:
    The Statement by Mike Zullo is entirely possible; Hawaiian Law in 1961 from legislation in 1955 allowed for birth registration by Affidavit!I grew up in Alaska and we had similar statutes since children were born in remote locations far from doctors or Hospitals, the same in Hawaii.All that was required was a sworn statement attesting to the Birth by a Parent, Grandparent or a Midwife that witnessed the BIRTH was all that was needed to register the Birth in Hawaii or Alaska.The integrity of the Birth Certificate is only as good as the Affidavit that it is predicated upon.So if someone were to file a FALSE affidavit they could in fact register a birth for someone NOT born in Hawaii in 1961.As in the example he GAVE 3 years earlier!

    I believe all states have some form of this. But what would it look like on the actual birth certificate? What type of investigation by the DOH is necessary? Would it show a delayed birth? Would it show birth at a hospital and registered in less than a week?

  190. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 7:59 pm #

    Whatever4: I believe all states have some form of this. But what would it look like on the actual birth certificate? What type of investigation by the DOH is necessary? Would it show a delayed birth? Would it show birth at a hospital and registered in less than a week?

    More than likely whatever was in the Affidavit!

  191. avatar
    Scientist March 3, 2012 at 8:03 pm #

    Al Halbert: More than likely whatever was in the Affidavit!

    Again, how does this get an exclamation point? Did you ever study Engllish grammar?

  192. avatar
    nbc March 3, 2012 at 8:39 pm #

    Al Halbert: The Statement by Mike Zullo is entirely possible; Hawaiian Law in 1961 from legislation in 1955 allowed for birth registration by Affidavit! I grew up in Alaska and we had similar statutes since children were born in remote locations far from doctors or Hospitals, the same in Hawaii. All that was required was a sworn statement attesting to the Birth by a Parent, Grandparent or a Midwife that witnessed the BIRTH was all that was needed to register the Birth in Hawaii or Alaska.

    But this one was by an attending physician. Ouch…

  193. avatar
    Linda March 3, 2012 at 8:50 pm #

    @naturalizedcitizen Can you explain multiple layers in Obama’s “pdf” file? Can you refute arguments presented by Arpaio’s investigation?

    Regarding the layers, etc. Would you buy an expert on FoxNews saying it is legit?
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/29/expert-says-obamas-birth-certificate-legit/

  194. avatar
    Linda March 3, 2012 at 9:13 pm #

    Al Halbert:
    For crying out loud they had Congressional Hearings and a Senate Resolution for McCain, all I am asking for is the State of Hawaii to be allowed to release their information, the very basis for Reason!

    They did not have a hearing. Obama and Hillary proposed the resolution and it was passed. Guess what? Obama has one, too, and it says he was born in Hawaii. HR 593, July 2009. Is it over now?

    “Whereas the 44th President of the United States, Barack Obama, was born in Hawaii on August 4, 1961;”
    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c111:2:./temp/~c111mWsnWX::

  195. avatar
    nbc March 3, 2012 at 9:16 pm #

    Poor Al…

  196. avatar
    Linda March 3, 2012 at 9:28 pm #

    Al Halbert:
    No one has refuted my initial argument debunking the premise of the Article that Mike Zullo Lied…………!!!!!!!

    Gee, FactCheck.com did it a couple years ago.

    “In a 2009 story, the Advertiser noted that the announcement read exactly the same in the competing newspapers: “Mr. and Mrs. Barack H. Obama, 6085 Kalanianaole Hwy., son, Aug. 4.” That’s because, it said, the information came directly from the health department, citing department spokeswoman Janice Okubo.

    ‘Advertiser, July 28, 2009: Such vital statistics, however, were not sent to the newspapers by the general public but by the Health Department, which received the information directly from hospitals, Okubo said. Birth announcements from the public ran elsewhere in both papers and usually included information such as the newborn’s name, weight and time of birth.’ ”
    http://www.factcheck.org/2011/04/donald-youre-fired/

    So, it is really over now, right? You are convinced, right?

  197. avatar
    Whatever4 March 3, 2012 at 9:34 pm #

    Al Halbert: The reason for this is when John Turley started the Birth Certificate mess or “Bither” movement in February 2008 when he wrote several articles demanding John McCain’s BC, which was presented forthwith by McCain. It took six months of prodding and cajoling to have Obama release his COLB! This in of itself kicked off this sad series of events.

    I beg to differ. I started in this whole thing as a McCain anti-birther. From my research (and I’m open to seeing other research), Turley wasn’t the first to demand McCain’s BC in the 2008 campaign. Other bloggers such as Newsbusters.org were earlier. Factcheck.org was the first major outlet to report on the issue, on Feb. 25. Turley’s first article was Feb 28. The only person outside the McCain camp to ever see McCain’s birth certificate was Michael Dobbs of the Washington Post, who first reported it on May 2, 2008. So that’s 67 days from Factcheck to “releasing the BC.”

    For Obama, the first major outlet asking for a birth certificate was Jim Geraghty at National Review Online, on June 9, 2008. The Obama campaign posted the COLB online on June 12. Politifact reported on it June 13, and Factcheck June 16. So 3 days from NRO to release of a digital image. The first pictures from Factcheck were August 21, 2008. That’s 73 days from first major outlet to first people outside the campaign seeing it. Very similar to the McCain number of 67 days. (Note — there have been no images or pictures from the McCain camp. The ones on the web are forgeries. Doc has articles about them.)

    If you have other dates or data, let me know.

  198. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 9:47 pm #

    Linda: Gee, FactCheck.com did it a couple years ago.

    “In a 2009 story, the Advertiser noted that the announcement read exactly the same in the competing newspapers: “Mr. and Mrs. Barack H. Obama, 6085 Kalanianaole Hwy., son, Aug. 4.” That’s because, it said, the information came directly from the health department, citing department spokeswoman Janice Okubo.

    Advertiser, July 28, 2009: Such vital statistics, however, were not sent to the newspapers by the general public but by the Health Department, which received the information directly from hospitals, Okubo said. Birth announcements from the public ran elsewhere in both papers and usually included information such as the newborn’s name, weight and time of birth.’ ”
    http://www.factcheck.org/2011/04/donald-youre-fired/

    So, it is really over now, right?You are convinced, right?

    I have debunked the premise of the Article about Mike Zullo having lied, I have shown the Hawaii State Statutes that were in effect at that time in 1961 at the time of Obama’s birth, no one has disputed or contradicted this. And proven how a 3 year old could be given a Birth Certificate that states any other date then their real birth date!

    AN ACT
    To Provide For The Issuance Of Certificates Of Hawaiian Birth.
    Be it Enacted by the Legislature of the Territory of Hawaii:

    ACT 96.

    AN ACT
    To PROVIDE FOR THE ISSUANCE OF CERTIFICATES OF HAWAIIAN BIRTH.

    Be it Enacted by the Legislature of the Territory of Hawaii:

    SECTION 1. The Secretary of Hawaii may, whenever satisfied that any person was born within the Hawaiian Islands, cause to be issued to such person a certificate showing such fact. The Secretary, with the approval of the Governor, may make such regulations respecting the form of application and certificates, the method of proof, kind of evidence, and time, place and manner of hearing, and all other matters and circumstances connected with such application, proof and hearing as to him may appear necessary, and such regulations, when so approved and published once a week for three successive weeks in a newspaper of general circulation published in the Territory, shall have the force of law, and such publication shall be deemed legal notice to all persons. The Secretary may furnish the form of such applications and certificates. All applications shall be by sworn petition, in which the party shall set forth circumstantially all the facts upon which his application rests, and shall be accompanied by sworn affidavits of witnesses. The Secretary and such persons as he may designate and appoint may examine, under oath, any applicant or person cognizant of the facts regarding any application and for that purpose he and they are hereby authorized and empowered to administer oaths, subpoena and compel the attendance of witnesses and the production of books and papers, punish for contempts and, generally, to exercise the same authority with regard to their special jurisdiction as is by law conferred on District Magistrates.

    SECTION 2. Any applicant or any person, who shall give or offer any false testimony, oral or written, under oath, in support or respect of any application for a certificate under the provisions of the foregoing Section, shall be deemed guilty of perjury and shall be punishable accordingly.

    Furthermore, I have also given a reasonable conjecture given the latest evidence regarding the LFBC and the Selective Service Card have been declared a Forgery by Maricopa County Duly appointed Officers under the Laws of Arizona and their Constitution. My hypothesis is that given the current state of the Privacy Laws that Hawaii is Barred from giving pertinent definitive information on our Presidents BC. I have also proposed to end this Matter in a definitive manner by release of the information by Hawaiian DOH under State Statute 338-18 by a request from our President which I am responsibly assured would be honored; to release their information which is in micro photographic form for 3rd party verification.

    I have also presented that since Obama has already released his True and Certified copy per Hawaii 338-19 that he cannot be harmed by this in any way, shape or form since he has already placed all the statical data that the certificate contains into the Public Domain. The only people that will be harmed by this is the “Birthers” as most all have proclaimed he has already done and will be redundant, so the birthers are the ones that have something to lose, NOT Obama. This mess was created by Obama in the first placed when it took him 6 months to release his COLB, then and additional 2 years to release his LFBC.

    So for the life of me I cannot understand any rational objection to my proposal unless most of you are really scared that he has indeed allowed someone to provide him with fraudulent documents as determined by duly appointed law enforcement personnel. This investigation by Maricopa County is the first time any real law enforcement scrutiny has been applied to the Obama Nativity. After all there were Congressional Hearings and a Senate resolution for McCain to be cleared, is this so much to ask?

    Since their is the possibility that things are not as Obama has claimed and I have proven how this could have come to be, a serious dialog needs to be undertaken to bring our President out from under this CLOUD. You can refuse to accept what the findings are however this is a serious criminal allegation and deserves to be investigated to it’s logical conclusion wherever that may be. I have only proposed how to short cut this to end the mater immediately, though have been given rejection at every turn. So what is all of the proponents detractors of verification afraid of? I suggest they should welcome the scrutiny and then have a really good laugh at all the Birthers and….

  199. avatar
    Whatever4 March 3, 2012 at 9:59 pm #

    Al Halbert: probable cause

    Al Halbert: For crying out loud they had Congressional Hearings and a Senate Resolution for McCain, all I am asking for is the State of Hawaii to be allowed to release their information, the very basis for Reason!

    Sorry, wrong. (Again, if you have actual sources to the contrary, I’m interested in seeing them.) I went through the Congressional Record looking for these hearings. There were none. There was a single aside in the April 2, 2008 Senate Judiciary Hearing where Senator Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) told Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff that he believed John McCain was a natural born citizen and eligible to serve as President, and asked if that is Chertoff’s belief. Sec. Chertoff states “My assumption and my understanding is that if you are born of American parents, you are naturally a natural-born American citizen.” This is the only testimony on Sen. McCain’s eligibility in a Congressional Hearing. April 10 Sen. Leahy introduced SR 511 resolving that Sen. McCain was a natural born citizen. That’s it. No hearings, no witnesses, no evidence. Here’s what they said: http://leahy.senate.gov/press/press_releases/release/?id=fd6db55d-33d4-440e-b53d-754f5bb58983

  200. avatar
    Rickey March 3, 2012 at 9:59 pm #

    While scanning through this thread I noted at least five “facts” proclaimed by Al which are falsehoods.

    1. He said that McCain released his birth certificate.
    2. He said that the Senate held hearings about McCain’s eligibility.
    3. He said that Hawaii does not use a raised seal on birth certificates.
    4, He said that most states no longer use raised seals on birth certificates.
    5. He said that no one has actually held the LFBC which Obama released last year.

    Anyone who claims to deal in facts and gets so many facts wrong in a single day deserves to be treated with scorn.

    And by the way Al, it is not HIPPA. It is HIPAA. The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (note – one “P”) specifically provides for the release of a patient’s medical records upon presentation of a valid notarized authorization signed by the patient or the patient’s legal representative. There is no similar provision in Hawaii law which would allow Obama to authorize Hawaii to release his birth certificate to anyone who wants to see it. The birth certificate is not Obama’s property. It belongs to the State of Hawaii.

  201. avatar
    Thrifty March 3, 2012 at 10:03 pm #

    Jesus Christ, how many of these drooling Birther idiots are there? It was kinda fun at first but now they’re kinda like that infestation of ants I got in the summer of 2008.

  202. avatar
    Majority Will March 3, 2012 at 10:05 pm #

    Al Halbert: have a really good laugh at all the Birthers

    Done.

  203. avatar
    nbc March 3, 2012 at 10:07 pm #

    Al Halbert: I have debunked the premise of the Article about Mike Zullo having lied, I have shown the Hawaii State Statutes that were in effect at that time in 1961 at the time of Obama’s birth, no one has disputed or contradicted this. And proven how a 3 year old could be given a Birth Certificate that states any other date then their real birth date!

    Still misleading?… Of course, no 3 year old would receive a non-delayed birth certificate and President Obama’s BC is not a delayed certificate but was filed several days after his birth and certified by an attending physician.

    Nothing to see here.

  204. avatar
    nbc March 3, 2012 at 10:11 pm #

    Al Halbert: I suggest they should welcome the scrutiny and then have a really good laugh at all the Birthers and….

    Well, we have…

  205. avatar
    Rickeyhttp://jonathanturley.org/2008/02/29/mccains-constitutional-dilemma-native-son-but-not-natural-born/ March 3, 2012 at 10:15 pm #

    Whatever4: I beg to differ. I started in this whole thing as a McCain anti-birther. From my research (and I’m open to seeing other research), Turley wasn’t the first to demand McCain’s BC in the 2008 campaign.

    As far as I can tell, Turley never demanded to see McCain’s birth certificate. He raised questions about McCain’s eligibility, but he never mentioned the birth certificate, at least in the articles of his which I have read.

    http://jonathanturley.org/2008/02/28/does-john-mccain-have-an-alexander-hamilton-problem-a-constitutional-challenge-may-loom-over-mccains-eligibility-for-president/

    http://jonathanturley.org/2008/02/29/mccains-constitutional-dilemma-native-son-but-not-natural-born/

    http://jonathanturley.org/2008/03/01/legislation-introduced-to-remove-mccains-panama-problem-in-seeking-presidency/

  206. avatar
    Rickey March 3, 2012 at 10:17 pm #

    Something weird happened to my name in the above post!

  207. avatar
    Whatever4 March 3, 2012 at 10:20 pm #

    Al Halbert: Their is only one problem with that, I will check Hawaii State Statute and get back to you, most states do not use a raised seal anymore, they use an ink seal as shown on the BC. This because the raised seal cannot be copied by copiers, so as I said most states have gone to an inked seal!

    States MUST use a seal that can’t be copied. The original record has no seal. Once the record is copied or printed, the seal is then affixed/embossed/placed/whatever. A regular inked stamp won’t do for the seal. (It will work for the signature, though.)

    According to the US State department, “A certified birth certificate has a registrar’s raised, embossed, impressed or multicolored seal, registrar’s signature, and the date the certificate was filed with the registrar’s office, which must be within 1 year of your birth.”

  208. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 10:23 pm #

    nbc: Still misleading?… Of course, no 3 year old would receive a non-delayed birth certificate and President Obama’s BC is not a delayed certificate but was filed several days after his birth and certified by an attending physician.

    Nothing to see here.

    Is it not possible that the Grandparents which lived in HNL; Obama’s Mothers’s parents could have filed the affidavit concurrent with his birth if overseas or in Seattle or wherever, you do know they had Telephones in 1961.

    Her parents were in HNL so it would probably have taken a few hours at most to accomplish this. Since the BC by Affidavit required publication in a Newspaper Hawaii DOH would have included the announcement just like any other BC Vital Statistic.

  209. avatar
    Whatever4 March 3, 2012 at 10:32 pm #

    Al Halbert:
    Again;

    No one has refuted my initial argument debunking the premise of the Article that Mike Zullo Lied…………!!!!!!!

    There’s not enough evidence in what Zullo said to be able to research this. That’s why Doc C wrote:

    Unless the Maricopa County Sheriff’s office discloses what this unspecified evidence is, I think it more likely than not that Zullo lied. I don’t doubt that Zullo believes that such foreign registrations are possible; I think he lied about having any evidence.

  210. avatar
    nbc March 3, 2012 at 10:39 pm #

    Al Halbert: Is it not possible that the Grandparents which lived in HNL; Obama’s Mothers’s parents could have filed the affidavit concurrent with his birth if overseas or in Seattle or wherever, you do know they had Telephones in 1961.

    Her parents were in HNL so it would probably have taken a few hours at most to accomplish this. Since the BC by Affidavit required publication in a Newspaper Hawaii DOH would have included the announcement just like any other BC Vital Statistic.

    One problem, the birth notifications came from the ffice of the vital statistics, and the vital statistics office received a form properly certified by an actual doctor.
    You still fail to accept that the BC was signed by an attending physician, one who also delivered Miki Booth’s child…

    ROTFL.

    Think before you leap my friend… Think before you leap…

  211. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 10:39 pm #

    Whatever4: There’s not enough evidence in what Zullo said to be able to research this. That’s why Doc C wrote:

    Look above Hawaii allowed a BC by Affidavit, all one needed to do in 1961 was file a Fraudulent Affidavit and you got yourself a Bona Fide Hawaii Birth Certificate. Thereby a 3 year old could be transformed into a newborn, DOH rarely if ever required any proof, it could even be done Mail.

  212. avatar
    nbc March 3, 2012 at 10:41 pm #

    Oh and I forgot. And if she gave birth in Seattle, that’s, last time I checked, US territory… Ouch

    PS: His mother also signed the BC…

    Double ouch

  213. avatar
    nbc March 3, 2012 at 10:42 pm #

    Al Halbert: Look above Hawaii allowed a BC by Affidavit, all one needed to do in 1961 was file a Fraudulent Affidavit and you got yourself a Bona Fide Hawaii Birth Certificate. Thereby a 3 year old could be transformed into a newborn, DOH rarely if ever required any proof, it could even be done Mail.

    Even accepting your ‘arguments’, President Obama’s BC shows that it was duly filed and signed by his mother and the attending physician.

    What now… And what about this ‘3 year’ old?…

    Finally, you do know that merely filing an affidavit would not be sufficient… Now do you…

  214. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 10:44 pm #

    nbc: One problem, the birth notifications came from the ffice of the vital statistics, and the vital statistics office received a form properly certified by an actual doctor.
    You still fail to accept that the BC was signed by an attending physician, one who also delivered Miki Booth’s child…

    ROTFL.

    Think before you leap my friend… Think before you leap…

    Easily PROVEN allow access to the records in DOH custody, there should nothing stopping Obama from doing this after all he has released his True and Correct Certified BC has he not, all of this information is in the Public Domain, if he does this and the two are the same game, set match Birthers are history right?

  215. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 3, 2012 at 10:48 pm #

    Al Halbert: Easily PROVEN allow access to the records in DOH custody, there should nothing stopping Obama from doing this after all he has released his True and Correct Certified BC has he not, all of this information is in the Public Domain, if he does this and the two are the same game, set match Birthers are history right?

    So….let’s say the President called you up and said, “Hi Al…..you sound like a reasonable guy so I’m going to give you access to my birth certificate in the binder in Honolulu.”

    Now what do you do Al? What do you do to satisfy yourself that it’s okay, not a fake???

  216. avatar
    nbc March 3, 2012 at 10:51 pm #

    Al Halbert: Easily PROVEN allow access to the records in DOH custody, there should nothing stopping Obama from doing this after all he has released his True and Correct Certified BC has he not, all of this information is in the Public Domain, if he does this and the two are the same game, set match Birthers are history right?

    He has already done this. Of course, he does not control access to the originals but he can have the originals certified and they all show his birth on soil, as certified by his mother, the attending physician and the DOH of Hawaii….

    Keep digging a deeper hole my friend. I thoroughly enjoy exposing your logical flaws, your lack of reason and failure to understand issues of law.

    But let me ask you something. Does it not upset you that Arpaio let you believe that there had been an official investigation and findings?…

    Surely noone should have been that…

  217. avatar
    Whatever4 March 3, 2012 at 10:52 pm #

    Al Halbert: 338-19 Photostatic or typewritten copies of records. The department of health is authorized to prepare typewritten, photostatic, or microphotographic copies of any records and files in its office, which by reason of age, usage, or otherwise are in such condition that they can no longer be conveniently consulted or used without danger of serious injury or destruction thereof, and to certify to the correctness of such copies. The typewritten, photostatic, or microphotographic copies shall be competent evidence in all courts of the State with like force and effect as the original. [L 1949, c 327, 23; RL 1955, 57-22; am L 1957, c 8, 1; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, 19; HRS 338-19]

    Section 338 seems to be silent on the seal portion of the document, you are welcome to review all of Hawaii Statute 338 if you like.

    This portion of the statute does NOT refer to the copies that the DOH certifies and gives to people who request copies of their records. This refers to originals that normally would be copied then the copy certified and given out. Originals kept at the DOH don’t have seals. If the original record is fragile, etc., they are permitted to create another “original”. This applies to any vital record, not just birth certificates.

    The information about seals is in the Administrative Rules.

  218. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 10:53 pm #

    nbc: Even accepting your arguments’, President Obama’s BC shows that it was duly filed and signed by his mother and the attending physician.

    What now… And what about this ’3 year’ old?…

    Finally, you do know that merely filing an affidavit would not be sufficient… Now do you…

    This was the LAW in 1961 in Hawaii for a BC by Affidavit, it was amended in 1955.

    AN ACT
    To Provide For The Issuance Of Certificates Of Hawaiian Birth.
    Be it Enacted by the Legislature of the Territory of Hawaii:

    ACT 96.

    AN ACT
    To PROVIDE FOR THE ISSUANCE OF CERTIFICATES OF HAWAIIAN BIRTH.

    Be it Enacted by the Legislature of the Territory of Hawaii:

    SECTION 1. The Secretary of Hawaii may, whenever satisfied that any person was born within the Hawaiian Islands, cause to be issued to such person a certificate showing such fact. The Secretary, with the approval of the Governor, may make such regulations respecting the form of application and certificates, the method of proof, kind of evidence, and time, place and manner of hearing, and all other matters and circumstances connected with such application, proof and hearing as to him may appear necessary, and such regulations, when so approved and published once a week for three successive weeks in a newspaper of general circulation published in the Territory, shall have the force of law, and such publication shall be deemed legal notice to all persons. The Secretary may furnish the form of such applications and certificates. All applications shall be by sworn petition, in which the party shall set forth circumstantially all the facts upon which his application rests, and shall be accompanied by sworn affidavits of witnesses. The Secretary and such persons as he may designate and appoint may examine, under oath, any applicant or person cognizant of the facts regarding any application and for that purpose he and they are hereby authorized and empowered to administer oaths, subpoena and compel the attendance of witnesses and the production of books and papers, punish for contempts and, generally, to exercise the same authority with regard to their special jurisdiction as is by law conferred on District Magistrates.

    SECTION 2. Any applicant or any person, who shall give or offer any false testimony, oral or written, under oath, in support or respect of any application for a certificate under the provisions of the foregoing Section, shall be deemed guilty of perjury and shall be punishable accordingly.

    Operative portion of Statute;

    All applications shall be by sworn petition, in which the party shall set forth circumstantially all the facts upon which his application rests, and shall be accompanied by sworn affidavits of witnesses.

    The next part (may) which was discretionary on the Secretaries duties;

    The Secretary and such persons as he may designate and appoint may examine, under oath, any applicant or person cognizant of the facts regarding any application and for that purpose he and they are hereby authorized and empowered to administer oaths, subpoena and compel the attendance of witnesses and the production of books and papers, punish for contempts and, generally, to exercise the same authority with regard to their special jurisdiction as is by law conferred on District Magistrates.

    So you can see it is entirely possible to get a BC in 1961 fraudulently, many times it was done by mail for people in remote regions of Hawaii back in the day.

  219. avatar
    nbc March 3, 2012 at 10:53 pm #

    PS: as you do claim to support the Constitution then you realize that under the Full Faith and Credit Clause, the official document, duly certified and with the required seal, is in fact sufficient to legally prove his birth on soil.

    Vacuous claims that there may be something wrong are not going to impress anyone… Certainly not a judge.

    Why not work a little on your arguments before you so carelessly allow yourself to go down these foolish paths, forcing you to move the goalposts, abandon your arguments and lick your wounds?

    Deal? Oh what am I saying, this is too much fun to cut short so soon.

  220. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 10:55 pm #

    nbc:
    PS: as you do claim to support the Constitution then you realize that under the Full Faith and Credit Clause, the official document, duly certified and with the required seal, is in fact sufficient to legally prove his birth on soil.

    Vacuous claims that there may be something wrong are not going to impress anyone… Certainly not a judge.

    Why not work a little on your arguments before you so carelessly allow yourself to go down these foolish paths, forcing you to move the goalposts, abandon your arguments and lick your wounds?

    Deal? Oh what am I saying, this is too much fun to cut short so soon.

    Trust but verify!

  221. avatar
    gorefan March 3, 2012 at 10:56 pm #

    Al Halbert: Look above Hawaii allowed a BC by Affidavit, all one needed to do in 1961 was file a Fraudulent Affidavit and you got yourself a Bona Fide Hawaii Birth Certificate.Thereby a 3 year old could be transformed into a newborn, DOH rarely if ever required any proof, it could even be done Mail.

    And you continue to ignore the fact the BC specifically says that if not born in a hospital
    than the address has to listed. no address is list, the hospital is listed.

    There could not be a “birth by affidavit”.

  222. avatar
    Majority Will March 3, 2012 at 10:58 pm #

    Al Halbert: So you can see it is entirely possible to get a BC in 1961 fraudulently, many times it was done by mail for people in remote regions of Hawaii back in the day.

    You certainly have a propensity for making sh!t up.

  223. avatar
    Whatever4 March 3, 2012 at 10:58 pm #

    Al Halbert: I am sure they would revel in being allowed to examine the original that Obama holds

    They should have asked. Did they?

  224. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 11:00 pm #

    nbc:
    PS: as you do claim to support the Constitution then you realize that under the Full Faith and Credit Clause, the official document, duly certified and with the required seal, is in fact sufficient to legally prove his birth on soil.

    Vacuous claims that there may be something wrong are not going to impress anyone… Certainly not a judge.

    Why not work a little on your arguments before you so carelessly allow yourself to go down these foolish paths, forcing you to move the goalposts, abandon your arguments and lick your wounds?

    Deal? Oh what am I saying, this is too much fun to cut short so soon.

    Dispute the premise that I proposed under ACT 96 Hawaii Sate Law at the time of Obama’s birth, the Consrtitution has nothing to do with my premise, I have debunked the Article’s basis in regard to Mike Zullo and your comment!

  225. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 11:01 pm #

    Whatever4: They should have asked. Did they?

    Don’t know?

  226. avatar
    John Reilly March 3, 2012 at 11:06 pm #

    The State of Hawaii has verified the birth certificate.

    As best I can tell, you have REFUSED to explain how any state other than Hawaii gets to go behind the birth certifucate. Flat out REFUSED I put it in caps so a brither would understand it.

    Then you can point us to a copy on the net of Sen. McCain’s birth certificate. Incidentally, I voted for Sen McCain and donated to PACs supporting him. I took his word that he was a citizen. But you insist on verifying, so show us the first step in your twisted world, a copy of Sen. McCain’s actual birth certificate. Or Gov. Romney’s. Or Sen. Santorum’s. Or Speaker Gingrich’s. Or Dr. Paul’s. Trust, but verify. Let’s see your verification of those. Or is it just Black people who have to jump through your hoops? Are you really going to let Newt have his finger on the nuclear button without checking on his pedigree first?

  227. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 11:09 pm #

    Al Halbert: Easily PROVEN allow access to the records in DOH custody, there should nothing stopping Obama from doing this after all he has released his True and Correct Certified BC has he not, all of this information is in the Public Domain, if he does this and the two are the same game, set match Birthers are history right?

    Easily PROVEN allow access to the records in DOH custody, there should be nothing stopping Obama from doing this after all he has released his True and Correct Certified BC has he not, all of this information is in the Public Domain, if he does this and the two are the same game, set match Birthers are history right?

  228. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 11:10 pm #

    John Reilly:
    The State of Hawaii has verified the birth certificate.

    As best I can tell, you have REFUSED to explain how any state other than Hawaii gets to go behind the birth certifucate.Flat out REFUSEDI put it in caps so a brither would understand it.

    Then you can point us to a copy on the net of Sen. McCain’s birth certificate.Incidentally, I voted for Sen McCain and donated to PACs supporting him. I took his word that he was a citizen.But you insist on verifying, so show us the first step in your twisted world, a copy of Sen. McCain’s actual birth certificate.Or Gov. Romney’s.Or Sen. Santorum’s.Or Speaker Gingrich’s.Or Dr. Paul’s.Trust, but verify.Let’s see your verification of those.Or is it just Black people who have to jump through your hoops?Are you really going to let Newt have his finger on the nuclear button without checking on his pedigree first?

    Easily PROVEN allow access to the records in DOH custody, there should nothing stopping Obama from doing this after all he has released his True and Correct Certified BC has he not, all of this information is in the Public Domain, if he does this and the two are the same game, set match Birthers are history right?

  229. avatar
    John Reilly March 3, 2012 at 11:11 pm #

    Al Halbert: So you can see it is entirely possible to get a BC in 1961 fraudulently, many times it was done by mail for people in remote regions of Hawaii back in the day.

    Al: name one time. Name the person–back in the day– who got a fraudulent Hawaii birth certificate in 1961. Let’s have a name, and a citation to where we find that referenced. Come Al, you said it happened many times. Name one.

    Or do you just make s**t up?

  230. avatar
    nbc March 3, 2012 at 11:13 pm #

    Al Halbert: Trust but verify!

    Yes, you showed great trust but little effort to verify. Hence your predicament.

  231. avatar
    nbc March 3, 2012 at 11:14 pm #

    Al Halbert: Easily PROVEN allow access to the records in DOH custody, there should nothing stopping Obama from doing this after all he has released his True and Correct Certified BC has he not, all of this information is in the Public Domain, if he does this and the two are the same game, set match Birthers are history right?

    He released his documents but birthers just found other excuses to ignore the facts.

    And then there are those who foolishly let themselves be misled by Arpaio into believing that this was a real investigation… Hilarious…

  232. avatar
    Majority Will March 3, 2012 at 11:16 pm #

    John Reilly:
    Al Halbert: So you can see it is entirely possible to get a BC in 1961 fraudulently, many times it was done by mail for people in remote regions of Hawaii back in the day.

    Al:name one time.Name the person–back in the day– who got a fraudulent Hawaii birth certificate in 1961.Let’s have a name, and a citation to where we find that referenced.Come Al, you said it happened many times.Name one.

    Or do you just make s**t up?

    Al is a bit busy as his pants keep exploding into flames.

  233. avatar
    John Reilly March 3, 2012 at 11:18 pm #

    Al: I don’t control what President Obama does. I already told you my fear: the President grants vault access with the cameras rolling in late October, with Geraldo running the show, making fools out of Republicans who have put too many bets on the birther theories.

    My friends here believe that if the President granted vault access tomorrow, Dr. Taitz would insist that whatever we saw was a forgery. Guaranteed.

    WND demanded the birth certificate, even though the COLB was publicly available. When the President produced the long form, WND’s reporter pronounced himself satisfied, and he has disappeared better than Jason Bourne. Corsi is still selling the idea the President was not born here even though Corsi said all the President had to do was to produce the birth cetificate.

    So Al, tell us that if the President provides vault access that you will vote for him and contribute to his campaign. Tell us that the only concern you have is vault access. Thrre’s nothing else. Give Doc C your check made out to Obama’s campaign to hold in escrow. Tell us the goal posts are not moving yet again.

  234. avatar
    nbc March 3, 2012 at 11:19 pm #

    Al Halbert: Dispute the premise that I proposed under ACT 96 Hawaii Sate Law at the time of Obama’s birth, the Consrtitution has nothing to do with my premise, I have debunked the Article’s basis in regard to Mike Zullo and your comment!

    Nope, you have claimed that a simple affidavit is sufficient. In fact that is not the case. But I have shown how with respect to your claim it has no relevance to Obama as his BC was filed days after his birth and signed by his mother and attending physician.

    As to the Zullo comment, citing ACT 96 ignores that a simple affidavit was not sufficient. While an affidavit could be filed under certain circumstances, that was not sufficient.

    For instance you claim

    So you can see it is entirely possible to get a BC in 1961 fraudulently, many times it was done by mail for people in remote regions of Hawaii back in the day.

    No supporting evidence is provided. Show us an example of non-hospital birth which made up less than 1% of the births in those days IIRC. Sigh… So much ignorance…

  235. avatar
    nbc March 3, 2012 at 11:21 pm #

    Hawaiian Birth Statistics 1961

    12,198 — non-white births

    12,110 — attended in a hospital by physician
    50 — attended out of a hospital by physician or midwife

    38 — unattended

    ROTFL. Trust but verify my friend…. Live by your word or have others remind you…

  236. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 11:24 pm #

    Marco Rubio amd Bobby Jindal are not Natural Born citizens as their Parents were not citizens when they were Born, there are rumors about Romney as well. I would like to see all candidates properly vetted by a process that is bullet proof.

    The natural born requirement was all the Founders could do to ensure a President did not have divided loyalties to any other Nation on the insistence of John Jay our First Chief Justice of Scotus and Monroe and Jefferson as he is after all our Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces.

    There was a real possibility during the early days of our nation that foreign influences could be asserted by someone of Royal Blood ascending to the office of president, this was their meager safeguard as poor as it is.

  237. avatar
    nbc March 3, 2012 at 11:26 pm #

    And the goal posts keep on moving

    Al Halbert:

    Marco Rubio amd Bobby Jindal are not Natural Born citizens as their Parents were not citizens when they were Born, there are rumors about Romney as well. I would like to see all candidates properly vetted by a process that is bullet proof.

    First you should familiarize yourself with the concept of natural born citizen which places NO requirements on the citizenship of the parents…

    It’s that ‘verify’ part again… Do you have no shame that you allow others to manipulate you into making foolish comments?

  238. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 11:28 pm #

    nbc:
    Hawaiian Birth Statistics 1961

    ROTFL. Trust but verify my friend…. Live by your word or have others remind you…

    So which one is Obama, we can KNOW conclusively by comparing the released document against the archive docs, couldn’t we? Why is Obama afraid to do this, by 3rd party verification, game set match Birthers are history.

    You have still not refuted my premise for Act 96 have you?

  239. avatar
    John Reilly March 3, 2012 at 11:31 pm #

    So now we have. Al is also a two parent fellow.

    No facts in his posts.

    No explanation of how to get around full faith and credit.

    No name of anyone who got a fraudulent birth certificate.

    There’s nothing the President can do to change the fact that he’s Black.

    I’m going to bed.

  240. avatar
    Majority Will March 3, 2012 at 11:33 pm #

    Al Halbert: So you can see it is entirely possible to get a BC in 1961 fraudulently, many times it was done by mail for people in remote regions of Hawaii back in the day.

    Name one with a verifiable reference. As in verify.

  241. avatar
    nbc March 3, 2012 at 11:33 pm #

    Al Halbert: So which one is Obama, we can KNOW conclusively by comparing the released document against the archive docs, couldn’t we? Why is Obama afraid to do this, by 3rd party verification, game set match Birthers are history.

    You still do not understand the full faith and credit clause now do you? The documents have been certified as accurate by those holding the documents.

    The birthers are history ever since he showed his long form. This is just pure entertainment.

  242. avatar
    nbc March 3, 2012 at 11:34 pm #

    John Reilly: So now we have. Al is also a two parent fellow.

    No facts in his posts.

    No explanation of how to get around full faith and credit.

    No name of anyone who got a fraudulent birth certificate.

    Are you really expecting Al to provide us with reason and logic? Come on my friend. Be real…

  243. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 11:34 pm #

    nbc:
    And the goal posts keep on moving

    First you should familiarize yourself with the concept of natural born citizen which places NO requirements on the citizenship of the parents…

    It’s that ‘verify’ part again… Do you have no shame that you allow others to manipulate you into making foolish comments?

    Please read Minor v. Happersett unanimous decision by SCOTUS in 1875 which defines a Natural Born citizen as a child born to citizen parents. Obama’s father was from Kenya, so he is not Natural born.

    From Wikipedia;

    The opinion (written by Chief Justice Morrison Waite) first asked whether Minor was a citizen of the United States, and answered that she was, citing both the Fourteenth Amendment and earlier common law. Exploring the common-law origins of citizenship, the court observed that “new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization” and that the Constitution “does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens.” Under the common law, according to the court, “it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”[12] The court observed that some authorities “include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents”—but since Minor was born in the United States and her parents were U.S. citizens, she was unquestionably a citizen herself, even under the narrowest possible definition, and the court thus noted that the subject did not need to be explored in any greater depth.[13]

    Meat of the Opinion;

    it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

  244. avatar
    Majority Will March 3, 2012 at 11:37 pm #

    “Please read Minor . . .”

    *facepalm*

  245. avatar
    JoZeppy March 3, 2012 at 11:37 pm #

    Al Halbert: So which one is Obama, we can KNOW conclusively by comparing the released document against the archive docs, couldn’t we?

    It’s entirely unnecessary. The certified copy has been seen, held, and photographed. It has been legally proven. Why do you hate this country so much that you show such contempt for its laws and constitution?

    Al Halbert: Why is Obama afraid to do this, by 3rd party verification, game set match Birthers are history

    Because we’ve never head that before.

    Al Halbert: You have still not refuted my premise for Act 96 have you?

    You have never even shown why anyone would even need to consider the procedures for unattended births as there is not an iota of evidence to contradict the well established support for the President’s hospital birth, so you mental wanderings are again totally irrelevant.

  246. avatar
    JoZeppy March 3, 2012 at 11:42 pm #

    Al Halbert: Please read Minor v. Happersett unanimous decision by SCOTUS in 1875 which defines a Natural Born citizen as a child born to citizen parents.

    Name one court that has interpreted Minor as creating the defintion of NBC? You know…trust but verify.

    I’ll be waiting for you answer, but not holding my breath.

    and while you’re at it, perhaps you should read Wong Kim Ark (the SCOTUS decision that is universal accepted as defining NBC).

  247. avatar
    gorefan March 3, 2012 at 11:44 pm #

    Al Halbert: There was a real possibility during the early days of our nation that foreign influences could be asserted by someone of Royal Blood ascending to the office of president, this was their meager safeguard as poor as it is.

    Not according to William Rawle:

    “Therefore every person born within the United States, its territories or districts, whether the parents are citizens or aliens, is a natural born citizen in the sense of the Constitution, and entitled to all the rights and privileges appertaining to that capacity. “

    And not according to Zephaniah Swift,

    “The children of aliens born in this state are considered as natural born subjects and have the same rights with the rest of the citizens.”

  248. avatar
    Majority Will March 3, 2012 at 11:45 pm #

    nbc:
    And the goal posts keep on moving

    First you should familiarize yourself with the concept of natural born citizen which places NO requirements on the citizenship of the parents…

    It’s that ‘verify’ part again… Do you have no shame that you allow others to manipulate you into making foolish comments?

    Al’s goalposts have all weather tread and reserve tanks.

  249. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 11:46 pm #

    nbc: You still do not understand the full faith and credit clause now do you? The documents have been certified as accurate by those holding the documents.

    The birthers are history ever since he showed his long form. This is just pure entertainment.

    You fail to REALIZE it could be FRAUDULENT, examination would debunk this? It is in the REALM of possibilities, Presidents have lied to the American people Nixon and Clinton come to mind, trust but verify. Sound like you are the one scared to prove conclusively beyond any shadow of doubt, I get you accept it I don’t. You probably did not Trust Bush either, again I understand you probably would have liked to seen verification of the WMD in Iraq, this is NO different!

  250. avatar
    JoZeppy March 3, 2012 at 11:47 pm #

    Al Halbert: Meat of the Opinion;
    it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

    Actually, that is what we in the legal field refer to as dicta. You see Minor’s status as a citizen was stipulated by the parties, and thus, not even briefed. The court wasn’t examining whether Minor was a citizen, but whether with that citizenship came the right to vote….but why am I wasting my time. It’s clear you’ll swallow any irther bs without any critical thought.

  251. avatar
    Majority Will March 3, 2012 at 11:47 pm #

    JoZeppy: Name one court that has interpreted Minor as creating the defintion of NBC?You know…trust but verify.

    I’ll be waiting for you answer, but not holding my breath.

    and while you’re at it, perhaps you should read Wong Kim Ark (the SCOTUS decision that is universal accepted as defining NBC).

    And I wonder why Angry Al is so obsessed over the President’s vault records if he’s a two citizen parents b.s. birther?

    Puzzling.

  252. avatar
    Al Halbert March 3, 2012 at 11:48 pm #

    Goodnight you all are hopeless.

  253. avatar
    nbc March 3, 2012 at 11:49 pm #

    Al Halbert: Please read Minor v. Happersett unanimous decision by SCOTUS in 1875 which defines a Natural Born citizen as a child born to citizen parents. Obama’s father was from Kenya, so he is not Natural born.

    Minor observed that it was not going to rule on the citizenship status of children born to foreign parents.

    Sigh… So clueless..

  254. avatar
    nbc March 3, 2012 at 11:50 pm #

    Al Halbert: Goodnight you all are hopeless.

    Translation… I failed to verify… Better hide…

  255. avatar
    Majority Will March 3, 2012 at 11:53 pm #

    Al Halbert: You fail to REALIZE it could be FRAUDULENT, examination would debunk this?It is in the REALM of possibilities, Presidents have lied to the American people Nixon and Clinton come to mind, trust but verify.Sound like you are the one scared to prove conclusively beyond any shadow of doubt, I get you accept it I don’t.You probably did not Trust Bush either, again I understand you probably would have liked to seen verification of the WMD in Iraq, this is NO different!

    That kind if babbling is known as making a false equivalence. It’s one of many reasons why rational people won’t take you seriously.

    Look it up.

  256. avatar
    Whatever4 March 3, 2012 at 11:53 pm #

    Rickey: As far as I can tell, Turley never demanded to see McCain’s birth certificate. He raised questions about McCain’s eligibility, but he never mentioned the birth certificate, at least in the articles of his which I have read.

    Good point. The facts of his birth were well known, it was his eligibility that was questioned. I retract my statement about Turley “demanding” to see McCain’s BC. Did anyone (except the WaPo reporter) ever ask for McCain’s birth certificate?

    Thanks!

    See how easy that was, Al? Try it.

  257. avatar
    JoZeppy March 3, 2012 at 11:56 pm #

    Al Halbert: You fail to REALIZE it could be FRAUDULENT, examination would debunk this?

    And it could be printed on plates of gold given to the state of Hawaii by the archangle Michael. No one cares what “could be.” Unless you provide actual evidence that it ACTUAL IS fraudulent, the Full Faith and Credit Clause, and the Rules of Evidence say, go hump yourself. The burden on you is to come up with real evidence that there is fraud. You seel in this country, even a black democrat is innocent untli proven guilty.

    Al Halbert: It is in the REALM of possibilities, Presidents have lied to the American people Nixon and Clinton come to mind, trust but verify.

    And I don’t doubt President Obama lies. However, this isn’t about just the President. It is about official legal documents issued by a state. It’s about the absurd claim that the President, his dead mother, dead grandmother, forner Republican Governor of Hawaii, her director of Health and countless other Hawaiian state official are liars….and you have yet to even provide a remotely plausible explanaiton of why or how Obama could be born anywhere else.

    Al Halbert: You probably did not Trust Bush either, again I understand you probably would have liked to seen verification of the WMD in Iraq, this is NO different!

    WMDs aren’t covered by the full faith and credit clause of the US Consitution. That and there wasn’t a UN task force sent to Hawaii to examine the records, and say there were no records. So besides those minor details, I can see how you could say there is no difference.

  258. avatar
    Majority Will March 3, 2012 at 11:57 pm #

    Al Halbert:
    Goodnight you all are hopeless.

    Is winning again and again and again hopeless?

    Or is a birther repeating the same b.s. and losing every time insanity?

  259. avatar
    JoZeppy March 3, 2012 at 11:58 pm #

    Al Halbert:
    Goodnight you all are hopeless.

    Yes, we are hoplelessly mired in the world of reality. It really is ashame that we can’t be consumed by the fact free world of birther delusion.

  260. avatar
    Whatever4 March 4, 2012 at 12:31 am #

    Al Halbert: Is it not possible that the Grandparents which lived in HNL; Obama’s Mothers’s parents could have filed the affidavit concurrent with his birth if overseas or in Seattle or wherever, you do know they had Telephones in 1961.

    Her parents were in HNL so it would probably have taken a few hours at most to accomplish this.Since the BC by Affidavit required publication in a Newspaper Hawaii DOH would have included the announcement just like any other BC Vital Statistic.

    Obama was born on a Friday evening. His birth was registered 4 days later on Tuesday. Registration of a birth by affidavit requires more than just mailing a piece of paper from a grandmother in to the office. There’s investigations, doctor’s records, and plenty of paperwork. Ask anyone who has a home birth. It’s always required more than just an affidavit.

    The law you quote about “CERTIFICATES OF HAWAIIAN BIRTH” was in effect from 1911 until 1972, and at least after Statehood, applied to anyone over the age of one year whose birth had not been registered before. Obama was not eligible for this. For infants under a year old, the document was a Delayed Birth Certificate. http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/vital-records/hawnbirth.html Obama’s birth was registered less than a month after the event, so he wouldn’t have a delayed birth certificate.

    The publication requirement you mention refers NOT to the publication of the person’s birth information, but to publication of the rules that the Secretary of Health is allowed to set. (Note it says 3x, so if you are correct, where’s the other 2?)

    The affidavit isn’t enough. Proof must also be presented that’s enough to convince the Secretary that the person was born in Hawaii. That might include doctor’s reports, birth pictures, etc. for someone over 1 year old. The administrative rules could require a hearing. There’s no way a birth under this act would be registered within a week of the event.

    The document one would get would NOT be a birth certificate. It’s in the title of the act — a Certificate of Hawaiian Birth. This is the document: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~sprin/document/gomes/bmarg.jpg In addition, the person would not appear in the Birth Index. There is a separate Hawaiian Birth Index, and Obama does NOT appear in that. He DOES appear in the regular birth index.

    Most states have something similar as there are cases where people don’t have birth certificates. Eisenhower’s BC was obtained this way — his brother was the witness. It’s not a 4-day (over a weekend) process.

    Here’s a link to the act. http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2009/03/07/act-96-1911-to-provide-for-the-issuance-of-certificates-of-hawaiian-birth/

    Your scenario assumes at least 2 trans-ocean phone calls, from an area with very few phones. Someone is currently researching this over at TheFogbow, but it looks like a few radio relays would have also been involved. Given the cost, difficulty of travel, the time needed to process paperwork, your scenario makes no sense. WHY would they rush to get this done, even assuming they could? Plus the BC has a doctor and a hospital. That wouldn’t be on it.

  261. avatar
    Whatever4 March 4, 2012 at 12:36 am #

    Al Halbert: Look above Hawaii allowed a BC by Affidavit, all one needed to do in 1961 was file a Fraudulent Affidavit and you got yourself a Bona Fide Hawaii Birth Certificate.Thereby a 3 year old could be transformed into a newborn, DOH rarely if ever required any proof, it could even be done Mail.

    Zullo claims he has evidence that would transform a 3 year old into a newborn, but it’s not public. Until he does, it’s not evidence. As I answered in an earlier post, the BC by Affidavit you refer to only applies to anyone over 1 year. Under 1 year the rules are different. Also there’s no evidence that the DOH rarely required proof. Instead, the Certificate of Hawaiian Birth Act required the Secretary of Health to issue regulations that lay out the proof required, including a possible hearing. Show us the Administrative Rules on how to get a BC by Affidavit. (Also the ones for AK. please, as you brought that up.)

  262. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 4, 2012 at 12:37 am #

    Classic parting shot of the whipped birther.

    Al, birtherism is a bunch of crap and unlike birther web sites, we don’t put up with crap. We use facts instead. Smell better, last longer. Welcome to the normal world.

    Al Halbert: Goodnight you all are hopeless.

  263. avatar
    nbc March 4, 2012 at 12:39 am #

    Now let’s expose the Act 96 nonsense which <a href="http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/educating-the-confused-act-96/#more-13713"I discussed here

    ACT 96.

    AN ACT
    To PROVIDE FOR THE ISSUANCE OF CERTIFICATES OF HAWAIIAN BIRTH.

    Certificates of Hawaiian birth were separate from birth certificates. While one can obtain a Hawaiian Birth Certificate using a Certificate of Hawaiian Birth, this can only be done after the child has reached the age of 1 year and the document is a delayed birth certificate.

    Since Obama’s birth certificate is not a delayed birth certificate and since it is not a certificate of hawaiian birth, we have another example of Al trusting before verifying.

    If a child born in Hawaii, for whom no physician or mid wife filed a certificate of live birth, and for whom no Delayed Certificate was filed before the first birthday, then a Certificate of Hawaiian Birth could be issued upon testimony of an adult including the subject person) if the Lieutenant Governor was satisfied that a person was born in Hawaii, provided that the person had attained the age of one year. (See Section 57-40 of the Territorial Public Health Statistics Act in the 1955 Revised Laws of Hawaii which was in effect in 1961).

    The end…

    Well almost,

    In 1982, the vital records law was amended to create a fourth kind of birth certificate for children born outside of the Territory or State of Hawaii. HRS Chapter 338 was amended to add a new section authorizing the Director of the Department of Health to issue a birth certificate for a person NOT born in Hawaii either as a Territory or State, upon sufficient proof that the legal parents of such individual had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth of such child.

    Al H… Such a doll…

  264. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 4, 2012 at 12:40 am #

    The angel Moroni is the guardian of the golden plates.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_Moroni

    JoZeppy: And it could be printed on plates of gold given to the state of Hawaii by the archangle Michael.

  265. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 4, 2012 at 12:43 am #

    Well, Fred Hollander (Hollander v. McCain), I presume wanted to see it, since he hired a con man from Panama to get him one (a fake one it turns out).

    Whatever4: Good point. The facts of his birth were well known, it was his eligibility that was questioned. I retract my statement about Turley “demanding” to see McCain’s BC. Did anyone (except the WaPo reporter) ever ask for McCain’s birth certificate?

  266. avatar
    Whatever4 March 4, 2012 at 12:46 am #

    nbc:
    Hawaiian Birth Statistics 1961

    ROTFL. Trust but verify my friend…. Live by your word or have others remind you…

    And that’s for all of Hawaii. The stats for Honolulu are something like… 4(?) I think?

  267. avatar
    Whatever4 March 4, 2012 at 12:52 am #

    Al Halbert:
    Marco Rubio amd Bobby Jindal are not Natural Born citizens as their Parents were not citizens when they were Born, there are rumors about Romney as well.I would like to see all candidates properly vetted by a process that is bullet proof.

    The natural born requirement was all the Founders could do to ensure a President did not have divided loyalties to any other Nation on the insistence of John Jay our First Chief Justice of Scotus and Monroe and Jefferson as he is after all our Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces.

    There was a real possibility during the early days of our nation that foreign influences could be asserted by someone of Royal Blood ascending to the office of president, this was their meager safeguard as poor as it is.

    OUCH — signal before you shift so far.

    1. If this is true, then the BC wouldn’t matter AT ALL.
    2. Just admit you want Obama out by any means possible and go campaign for someone else.
    3. Why didn’t anyone mention this in 2008?
    4. If this is true, and everyone knew it, and the BC is fraudulent, why wasn’t it created with an American father? If they went through all that trouble to get one to mask a foreign birth, putting in a different father would be trivial.

  268. avatar
    Whatever4 March 4, 2012 at 12:55 am #

    Al Halbert: Please read Minor v. Happersett unanimous decision by SCOTUS in 1875 which defines a Natural Born citizen as a child born to citizen parents.Obama’s father was from Kenya, so he is not Natural born.

    STOP THAT. This thread has nothing to do with 2-citizen parents. Stay on target.

  269. avatar
    Whatever4 March 4, 2012 at 1:02 am #

    Al Halbert: You fail to REALIZE it could be FRAUDULENT, examination would debunk this?It is in the REALM of possibilities, Presidents have lied to the American people Nixon and Clinton come to mind, trust but verify.Sound like you are the one scared to prove conclusively beyond any shadow of doubt, I get you accept it I don’t.You probably did not Trust Bush either, again I understand you probably would have liked to seen verification of the WMD in Iraq, this is NO different!

    Neither Nixon, nor Clinton, nor Bush had the government of a STATE so adamantly and consistently insist on the facts of their vital events. The US government under Bush and the State of Hawaii under 2 separate political administrations believe that Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural born citizen. (The Bush admin. provided Obama with a passport during the transition, and I suspect Cheney and Rove checked a few files.) This is not the case of a President and a few of his cronies pulling a scam.

  270. avatar
    Thrifty March 4, 2012 at 1:04 am #

    Seriously, it staggers the mind that the most hardcore Birthers aren’t content to be satisfied with just crank conspiracy theory or nonsense legal theory, they need to go for ALL of them. I was over at that ORYR site a few days ago, and saw that flyer they had which claimed, all at once:

    1) Barack Obama’s birth certificate is forged but even if it wasn’t…
    2) He needs 2 citizen parents to be a natural born citizen and even if he had those…
    3) He’s using a fraudulent social security number. We know this because we fraudulently obtained his selective service registration (which we’re pretty sure is fake) and then fraudulently used the E-Verify system to search on it.

    It’s like in that song “I Shot the Sheriff”, where he confesses to killing the sheriff while vehemently denying any guilt in shooting the deputy. Well…. there’s really not much point in defending yourself from one capital offense after confessing to another one.

    Of course, I have no respect for any Birther of any type, being that they are hateful, seditious creeps. But in a “lesser of two evils” type scenario, I can at least give a slight bit more respect to Birthers who have the restraint to pick one crank theory and stick with it.

  271. avatar
    Thrifty March 4, 2012 at 1:10 am #

    Al fails to realize that mankind COULD have been conquered and enslaved by robots 100 years ago, who have plugged us all into a complex neural computer network. We COULD be living within a virtual reality simulation and our reactions providing them with power.

  272. avatar
    J. Potter March 4, 2012 at 1:12 am #

    4) He’s still black
    5) He’s still has a Mooslim-y name
    6) He’s still representing the wrong party
    7) Our thought leaders still say he’s skeery
    8) Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia
    9) Klaatu …. barada … nikto!

  273. avatar
    J. Potter March 4, 2012 at 1:14 am #

    I smiled accidentally.

  274. avatar
    J. Potter March 4, 2012 at 1:16 am #

    Those puppy dog eyes of Zullo’s could hypnotize anyone. Is that what they were counting on?

    He has no future at WND tho. Only room for one ‘stache in that office. Or maybe he’s the backup ‘stache?

  275. avatar
    Linda March 4, 2012 at 1:51 am #

    Al, you keep saying you have debunked and proven, but I have to disagree. I showed you that the newspapers in HI say they get their info for the announcements from the Health Department, not individuals. So, doesn’t that support Doc’s assertion that he lied or that at least all of you are wrong?

    Your proposal that Obama somehow gets HI to allow people to view his original birth certificate, one paper or on film, would not work. Not that Obama has anything to hide, but that it will not satisfy anyone (birthers). If they go, and see it in place as it should be, there will just be more allegations that the Health Department is corrupt, or how Obama “got” to them. He and HI has produced certified copies of both the long and short form of his BC. HI says they sent him the certified copies. What more do you need?

  276. avatar
    Majority Will March 4, 2012 at 5:36 am #

    J. Potter:
    I smiled accidentally.

    There are no accidents in Birthervania. ❤ :twisted:

  277. avatar
    Majority Will March 4, 2012 at 5:41 am #

    J. Potter: Or maybe he’s the backup stache?

    Isn’t there a backup stache repository?

  278. avatar
    Sef March 4, 2012 at 12:37 pm #

    Al Halbert: Is it not possible that the Grandparents which lived in HNL; Obama’s Mothers’s parents could have filed the affidavit concurrent with his birth if overseas or in Seattle or wherever, you do know they had Telephones in 1961.

    Her parents were in HNL so it would probably have taken a few hours at most to accomplish this. Since the BC by Affidavit required publication in a Newspaper Hawaii DOH would have included the announcement just like any other BC Vital Statistic.

    The President’s grandparents did not live at the airport!

  279. avatar
    bjphysics March 4, 2012 at 1:10 pm #

    bjphysics: What crime?
    I have a stupid question: what crime(s) is it the CCP is investigating?
    Obama or the Democratic Party of Arizona registered his candidacy in that state. I don’t understand how anything “investigated” by the CCP could possibly relate to any crime under Arizona law.

    Still trying to get an answer.

  280. avatar
    J. Potter March 4, 2012 at 1:26 pm #

    Majority Will: Isn’t there a backup stache repository?

    MW, did a search for mustache and WND, and got an answer to a completely different question.

    http://www.wnd.com/wnd_video/obamas-not-so-super-super-pac/

    It’s a very painful video column.

    Recently someone here (?) asked why the right does have any good satirists. Well, here’s your answer. Making fun of stupid is funny. Wit is based on valuable observation and truth. Just being stupid …. is painful.

  281. avatar
    Majority Will March 4, 2012 at 1:28 pm #

    J. Potter: MW, did a search for mustache and WND, and got an answer to a completely different question.

    http://www.wnd.com/wnd_video/obamas-not-so-super-super-pac/

    It’s a very painful video column.

    Recently someone here (?) asked why the right does have any good satirists. Well, here’s your answer. Making fun of stupid is funny. Wit is based on valuable observation and truth. Just being stupid …. is painful.

    Ugh.

  282. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 4, 2012 at 1:34 pm #

    bjphysics: bjphysics: What crime?
    I have a stupid question: what crime(s) is it the CCP is investigating?
    Obama or the Democratic Party of Arizona registered his candidacy in that state. I don’t understand how anything “investigated” by the CCP could possibly relate to any crime under Arizona law.
    Still trying to get an answer.

    Your have to understand that the Sheriff has a very broad view of his mission. Not only does it cover Arizona but anywhere else in this universe….or parallel universes.

    But the short answer to your question is…….none. And, of course, the cold case posse can’t really investigate anything since it has no police powers.

    Other than that………………………………

  283. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny March 4, 2012 at 4:59 pm #

    nbc: Telephone

    nbc: Oh and I forgot. And if she gave birth in Seattle, that’s, last time I checked, US territory… Ouch

    PS: His mother also signed the BC…

    Double ouch

    Yes, Seattle is funny. Halal Birther does know the geography of his own country.

    Apart from that, yes, they had telephones, but it was not possible to phone Hawaii from Kenya until 1962.

  284. avatar
    Keith March 4, 2012 at 6:58 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    The angel Moroni is the guardian of the golden plates.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_Moroni

    But we know that the Birthers have all lost their ‘i’ for little details…

  285. avatar
    Reality Check March 5, 2012 at 1:03 pm #

    :lol: :lol:

    Daniel: You could always suggest he voice his concerns on RC Radio