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The Long Form and The Great Disappointment

According to the polls, there was a veritable collapse in the number of birthers in the wake of President Obama’s release of his long form birth certificate last April (2011). Most concluded that Obama was born in Hawaii just as he’s always said, but some doubled-down on conspiracy thinking with claims that the President had presented a fake document and a cottage industry of self-credentialed document experts arose to deny the long form’s authenticity.

Most recently the State of Hawaii has twice provided official confirmation of the certificate, first to the Arizona Secretary of State and then to an attorney who filed it in Federal District Court in Mississippi. Proof like this is a sore blow to those who claimed that the White House forged the birth certificate. Some I believe are now convinced that the certificate is legit but others add Hawaii to the list of conspirators.

All of this reminds me of a religious movement led by William Miller in the 19th century. He predicted the second-coming of Jesus and many of his adherents sold all their possessions and stood in expectation of the cosmic event predicted for October 22, 1844. That non-event became known as “The Great Disappointment.” The Wikipedia has a fine article on the topic, and I find it instructive to look at how those disappointed dealt with it. Some explained it away and doubled-down on their beliefs, while:

[p]robably the majority … simply gave up their beliefs and attempted to rebuild their lives.

What is said of the Millerites may be instructive in understanding modern-day birther believers:

The Great Disappointment is viewed by some scholars as an example of the psychological phenomenon of cognitive dissonance. The theory was proposed by Leon Festinger to describe the formation of new beliefs and increased proselytizing in order to reduce the tension, or dissonance, that results from failed prophecies. According to the theory, believers experienced tension following the failure of Jesus’ reappearance in 1844, which led to a variety of new explanations. The various solutions form a part of the teachings of the different groups that outlived the disappointment.

Any day now ….

For further reading:

  • Bruce & Stan’s Guide to the End of the World: A User-Friendly Approach (Bickel & Jantz)
  • Visions of the End: Apocalyptic Traditions in the Middle Ages (McGinn)
  • Apocalypses: Prophesies, Cults, and Millennial Beliefs Through the Ages (Weber)
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68 Responses to The Long Form and The Great Disappointment

  1. avatar
    1% Silver Nitrate June 8, 2012 at 5:10 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Yes. See “The Great Disappointment”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Disappointment

    Also, for your reading pleasure, “When Prophecy Fails”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails

  2. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 8, 2012 at 5:49 pm #

    That was interesting. I added it as a link to the article, along with the Wikipedia article on Cognitive Dissonance.

    1% Silver Nitrate: Also, for your reading pleasure, “When Prophecy Fails”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails

  3. avatar
    alg June 8, 2012 at 7:29 pm #

    Another good book on the subject of belief and conspiracies is Michael Shermer’s “THe Believing Brain.”

  4. avatar
    Chef June 9, 2012 at 3:25 am #

    Those who believe the lfbc pdf is not a forgery have more in common with religious believers than the birther skeptics who demand a higher standard of proof.

  5. avatar
    bob j June 9, 2012 at 4:52 am #

    Chef:
    Those who believe the lfbc pdf is not a forgery have more in common with religious believers than the birther skeptics who demand a higher standard of proof.

    Really?

    What is standard of proof is higher than what has been shown? Is there something more relevant than state officials ( from both parties) verification and 2 birth certificates ( one of which is a higher standard than the state actually requires.)?

    By reaching a conclusion and then looking for evidence of that conclusion, you have determined that the evidence is fake.

    The answer is 5. The question: what is 2+2.

    conclusion: 2 is fake and is really a 3.

    can i be a birther now?

  6. avatar
    aarrgghh June 9, 2012 at 5:14 am #

    is there a “standard of proof” that birfers haven’t abandoned?

  7. avatar
    AnotherBird June 9, 2012 at 6:35 am #

    Chef:
    Those who believe the lfbc pdf is not a forgery have more in common with religious believers than the birther skeptics who demand a higher standard of proof.

    What higher standard of proof would that be? Would that be a time machine. The reality is that the only thing available is a birth certificate, which as been confirmed by Hawaii. The reality is that they had to issue it in two formats, and also write press releases confirming that they have to document.

    It isn’t proof that birthers are looking for. They just concluded that Obama isn’t a natural born citizen, and argue to that point. The arguments have shifted from loss of citizenship, relinquishing citizenship, the birth certificate isn’t sufficient enough.

    This article isn’t about people with religious beliefs, but those who will disregard reality all to support a wrong belief and the consequences of those actions.

  8. avatar
    misha June 9, 2012 at 6:48 am #

    Chef: who demand a higher standard of proof

    Grain alcohol is 200 proof. Join me for a drink.

  9. avatar
    misha June 9, 2012 at 7:01 am #

    “All of this reminds me of a religious movement led by William Miller in the 19th century. He predicted the second-coming of Jesus and many of his adherents sold all their possessions and stood in expectation of the cosmic event predicted for October 22, 1844. That non-event became known as “The Great Disappointment.”

    There’s a guy around the corner, who’s on the bandwagon:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/ubereye/3611738524/in/photostream

  10. avatar
    misha June 9, 2012 at 7:15 am #

    “He predicted the second-coming of Jesus and many of his adherents sold all their possessions and stood in expectation of the cosmic event predicted for October 22, 1844. That non-event became known as “The Great Disappointment.”

    We have our nuts, too:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Turkey#Ottoman_era

    Another tremendous upheaval was caused when Sabbatai Zevi proclaimed to be the Messiah. He was eventually caught by the Ottoman authorities and when given the choice between death and conversion, he opted for the latter. His remaining disciples converted to Islam too. Their descendants are today known as Donmeh.

  11. avatar
    Majority Will June 9, 2012 at 7:15 am #

    Chef:
    Those who believe the lfbc pdf is not a forgery have more in common with religious believers than the birther skeptics who demand a higher standard of proof.

    I don’t know how you do it but kudos for making each new post even more asinine than your last post.

  12. avatar
    Keith June 9, 2012 at 9:35 am #

    bob j: The answer is 5. The question: what is 2+2.

    conclusion: 2 is fake and is really a 3.

    can i be a birther now?

    Absolutely!

    Since you want the answer to be 5, you decide 2 is really 3, so the answer to 2+2 turns out to be 6. Which was the right answer all along, of course.

    Perfect. transcendent Birther logic!

  13. avatar
    bob j June 9, 2012 at 10:31 am #

    Oops.

    My mistake. I swear in my brain I wrote; one of the 2′s

    Keith: Absolutely!

    Since you want the answer to be 5, you decide 2 is really 3, so the answer to 2+2 turns out to be 6. Which was the right answer all along, of course.

    Perfect. transcendent Birther logic!

  14. avatar
    JPotter June 9, 2012 at 12:40 pm #

    Chef:
    Those who believe the lfbc pdf is not a forgery have more in common with religious believers than the birther skeptics who demand a higher standard of proof.

    LOL! Many a birther has adamantly stated that any information (in whatever form, of whatever nature) that indicates or implies that Obama is in anyway eligible to the Presidency is inferently false. No matter how tested, documented, authenticated, or corroborated.

    The conclusion regarding the nature of any new information is known before the information has been revealed or observed. That, friends, is a religious conviction.

    They’ve gone Doubting Thomas one better! Arbitrarily Denying Thomas.

  15. avatar
    Scientist June 9, 2012 at 12:54 pm #

    Chef: Those who believe the lfbc pdf is not a forgery have more in common with religious believers than the birther skeptics who demand a higher standard of proof.

    The pdf? Who cares about the pdf? That is yesterday’s baguette. You really need to keep up with things pal, We are now dealing with real paper documents, which are certified and are as real as they come http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/06/official-hawaiian-birth-certification-appears-in-court/

    Your pal the Sheriff spent 2,000 hours and at least $40,000 analyzing an electronic file instead of the paper documents. What an incompetent. Someone ought to sue.

    Sort of like hiring an art expert to look at this file http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/vinci/joconde/joconde.jpg and report, “That is not the Mona Lisa”. Of coourse it isn’t; the Mona Lisa is on the wall in the Louvre in Paris. And the one in Paris is very, very real. And so are the documents in Honolulu.

  16. avatar
    alg June 9, 2012 at 1:11 pm #

    Chef:
    Those who believe the lfbc pdf is not a forgery have more in common with religious believers than the birther skeptics who demand a higher standard of proof.

    Chef, of course the pdf is a “forgery.” It’s not the original. All pdf’s are essentially “forgeries” of the original documents.

    Not only do we have two different certified versions of Mr. Obama’s birth certificate and two different newspaper birth announcements published in 1961, but we now also have two certified verifications that the lfbc is genuine. What else could possibly be necessary?!?

    You are, yourself, an excellent example of the “great disappointment” in action.

  17. avatar
    nbc June 9, 2012 at 1:45 pm #

    Chef: Those who believe the lfbc pdf is not a forgery have more in common with religious believers than the birther skeptics who demand a higher standard of proof.

    There is no evidence that the pdf is a forgery although there are some compression artifacts that have confused some poor sods into believing that this is evidence that the original is somehow a forgery as well.

    Now that the DOH of HI has, once again, verified and certified Obama’s native birth in Hawaii, Arpaio’s CCP has been slightly embarrassed but I am assuming that they were interested in the facts rather than in smearing our president.

    First the COLB, then the long form and now the verification of all the information on the long form. Must be such a disappointment for those who were hoping to remove an eligible President from office.

    Oh well, their success rates in court should have been a hint… Especially when the Courts rejected the foolish two parent citizen arguments clearly.

  18. avatar
    justlw June 9, 2012 at 2:54 pm #

    misha: There’s a guy around the corner, who’s on the bandwagon:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/ubereye/3611738524/in/photostream

    I’ve never quite understood how this became a linchpin of apocalyptic prophecy. I guess the idea is that if the world’s ending, you’ll want to keep in touch.

  19. avatar
    Steve June 9, 2012 at 5:13 pm #

    Chef:
    Those who believe the lfbc pdf is not a forgery have more in common with religious believers than the birther skeptics who demand a higher standard of proof.

    Chef,
    The COLB is adequate to get a passport, sign up for youth sports, enlist in the military, get a driver’s license, etc.
    Why is a higher standard of proof necessary to demonstrate you’re eligible to be President?
    Give me one good reason. Please.

  20. avatar
    AlCum June 9, 2012 at 5:31 pm #

    Chef:
    Those who believe the lfbc pdf is not a forgery have more in common with religious believers than the birther skeptics who demand a higher standard of proof.

    It is a complete legal impossibility for the LFBC to be a forgery.

  21. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater June 9, 2012 at 10:30 pm #

    AlCum: It is a complete legal impossibility for the LFBC to be a forgery.

    Ever since Chef joined the super adventure friends he’s never been the same

  22. avatar
    Rickey June 9, 2012 at 11:39 pm #

    Chef:
    Those who believe the lfbc pdf is not a forgery have more in common with religious believers than the birther skeptics who demand a higher standard of proof.

    Let me provide you with a dose of reality.

    If I take a genuine dollar bill of out of my wallet, scan it and save the scan as a pdf, the pdf is a counterfeit. However, the dollar bill I used to make the scan is still real.

    Now let’s see if you are smart enough to apply this lesson to Obama’s birth certificate.

  23. avatar
    MShaba June 10, 2012 at 11:37 am #

    I do find it interesting that anyone who questions this is targeted with name calling. Has Obama released his true long form birth certificate? Or is this a facsimile?

    Even if you say you are not a birther, I understand that asking these questions means you will be attacked as such by Obamunists.

    Is is still a conspiracy that Obama was a member of the socialist New Party and ran on their ticket in the 1990′s or is that considered a bonus that Obama’s campaign has lied about?

    I’ll venture to guess that Obamunists wouldn’t want this out before the election as last.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/bensmith/obama-and-the-new-party
    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/06/08/Ben-Smith-Concedes-Obama-New-Party-Endorsement-But-Lets-Obama-Campaign-Get-Away-Without-Comment
    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/302204/ben-smith-and-evidence-stanley-kurtz

  24. avatar
    euphgeek June 10, 2012 at 12:48 pm #

    On the following page, there is a humorous take on the Millerites and their Great Disappointment, fourth and fifth entries from the top:

    http://alma-geddon.com/doomwish3.html#Miller

    That site is my favorite website for end of the world prophecies. You’ve got to love the title of the page, “A Doom Is A Wish Your Heart Makes”.

  25. avatar
    Nathanael June 10, 2012 at 1:30 pm #

    “Some I believe are now convinced that the certificate is legit but others add Hawaii to the list of conspirators.”

    At least one birther had this particular duck lined up long ago.

    Back during the Georgia trial several of us, including Suranis, were conversing with David Farrar over at Squeeky Fromm’s blog, when Ex Ass explicitly asked how we know that the information on the vault copy (which no one has yet seen) is true?

    So the progression runs something as follows:

    1. Shows us your birth certificate.
    2. Oh, umm, we meant the long form.
    3. Um, uh, it’s got layers. We want the vault copy.
    4. So how do we know the VC is true?

    According to Ex Animo, any confirmation that the LFCB info matches what’s in the vault simply proves that it matches, not that it’s true. The original information was simply planted — perhaps by ‘Bammy’s Grammy.

    It’s the epistemological two-step: against *any* evidence or proof the sceptic’s response is simply How do we know *that’s* true? ad infinitum.

  26. avatar
    JPotter June 10, 2012 at 1:43 pm #

    Nathanael: According to Ex Animo, any confirmation that the LFCB info matches what’s in the vault simply proves that it matches, not that it’s true. The original information was simply planted — perhaps by ‘Bammy’s Grammy.

    There is another variation: The Empty Tomb. There’s nothing in the vault! Hawaii is in the tank and actively covering. Seriously, how long would that hold up?

    I have seen some birthers blatantly confirm that anything implying Obama’s eligibility is inherently false. Counterfeit or fraudulent, whatever. They don’t even throw in a “IMHO” …. it’s simply BARACK OBAMA IS ILLEGITIMATE. That’s the Gospel Truth, and all facts must support the Truth. Clearly not a rational mindset. Not a scientific approach. But they sure want to imply such authority, don’t they?

    BirFundamentalism!

  27. avatar
    Paper June 10, 2012 at 4:44 pm #

    Welcome to my world. It’s like you’re reading my personal emails and listening to my phone calls. I can’t begin to tell you how deep the self-deception and ego goes with a certain subset of birthers. But you guys know anyway…

    Nathanael:

    According to Ex Animo, any confirmation that the LFCB info matches what’s in the vault simply proves that it matches, not that it’s true. The original information was simply planted — perhaps by ‘Bammy’s Grammy.

  28. avatar
    Keith June 10, 2012 at 5:05 pm #

    bob j:
    Oops.

    My mistake. I swear in my brain I wrote; one of the 2′s

    You just lost your birthering license. birthers never admit a mistake.

  29. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 10, 2012 at 8:24 pm #

    Name calling is prevalent on both sides of the question. I think this stems from frustration. The birthers believe that they have absolutely irrefutable evidence for their side and so anyone who doesn’t accept it must be willfully ignorant or evil. The anti-birthers for their part are convince that they see things reasonably and logically and that the birther’s arguments are demonstrably fallacious and their evidence is bogus. Anti-birthers feel frustration because the birthers won’t listen to plain reason.

    The long form birth certificate shown to the Press at the April 2011 news conference was an original birth certificate. The scanned image of that Obama placed on his web site is of course a facsimile (you can’t put paper on the Internet). However, the recent verification provided by the State of Hawaii that has been submitted to the Federal District Court in Mississippi states that the image on the Internet matches the State’s files.

    So from the anti-birther point of view, this is (again) settled and anyone who can’t see that is looney.

    MShaba: I do find it interesting that anyone who questions this is targeted with name calling. Has Obama released his true long form birth certificate? Or is this a facsimile?

  30. avatar
    euphgeek June 10, 2012 at 8:25 pm #

    If you want to try to relitigate the 2008 election, be my guest. Ask all the questions you want. As a matter of fact, try to get Mitt Romney to make them an integral part of his campaign. But I notice that you complain about name calling and then start using words like “Obamunist”. Hypocrite much?

    MShaba:
    I do find it interesting that anyone who questions this is targeted with name calling.Has Obama released his true long form birth certificate?Or is this a facsimile?

    Even if you say you are not a birther, I understand that asking these questions means you will be attacked as such by Obamunists.

    Is is still a conspiracy that Obama was a member of the socialist New Party and ran on their ticket in the 1990′s or is that considered a bonus that Obama’s campaign has lied about?

    I’ll venture to guess that Obamunists wouldn’t want this out before the election as last.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/bensmith/obama-and-the-new-party
    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/06/08/Ben-Smith-Concedes-Obama-New-Party-Endorsement-But-Lets-Obama-Campaign-Get-Away-Without-Comment
    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/302204/ben-smith-and-evidence-stanley-kurtz

  31. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 10, 2012 at 9:41 pm #

    It bears noting how huge a conspiracy this implies. One can break this into two cases: modern fraud and vintage fraud.

    In the case of modern fraud, because certificates are sequentially numbered, the fact that Obama is in the book means that someone else had to be taken out of the book. There then remains the problem of putting in a certificate that would fool the state of Hawaii vital records staff, no small task. While we have no confirmation from Hawaii that vintage microfilm copies of the records bear the same certificate, SURELY THEY KNOW one way or the other. So if the “health department mole” switched the certificate in the book, AND someone got entered into the computer system and printed in the 1961 birth index (which surely is decades old), the honest folks would have found out, and the entire vital records department has to be in on the conspiracy.

    The route for a vintage fraud is even crazier. In this case, it requires the complicity of Dr. David A. Sinclair, Ann Obama and Kapiolani hospital OR the state registrar of Hawaii knowingly inserting a fake certificate. Why would they do that for some baby of no special significance? I don’t understand the birther fascination with grandmothers, but there’s no mechanism for Madelyn Dunham to get a doctor-signed certificate from Kapiolani into the records (and frankly no reason for her to do so). The vintage fraud also requires the insertion of notations into the State Department files from 1961 and manipulation of INS statistical records of travelers from Kenya to the US.

    It seems to me that both scenarios are impossible.

    Nathanael: According to Ex Animo, any confirmation that the LFCB info matches what’s in the vault simply proves that it matches, not that it’s true. The original information was simply planted — perhaps by ‘Bammy’s Grammy.

  32. avatar
    AlCum June 10, 2012 at 10:21 pm #

    MShaba:
    I do find it interesting that anyone who questions this is targeted with name calling.Has Obama released his true long form birth certificate?Or is this a facsimile?

    Even if you say you are not a birther, I understand that asking these questions means you will be attacked as such by Obamunists.

    Is is still a conspiracy that Obama was a member of the socialist New Party and ran on their ticket in the 1990′s or is that considered a bonus that Obama’s campaign has lied about?

    I’ll venture to guess that Obamunists wouldn’t want this out before the election as last.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/bensmith/obama-and-the-new-party
    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/06/08/Ben-Smith-Concedes-Obama-New-Party-Endorsement-But-Lets-Obama-Campaign-Get-Away-Without-Comment
    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/302204/ben-smith-and-evidence-stanley-kurtz

    Yes, Obama released his true long form birth certificate. In the history of the republic, hens in fact the first and only candidate ever to do so.

    If he’s a socialist, he’s not a very good one. He saved capitalism from collapse.

  33. avatar
    Sef June 10, 2012 at 10:26 pm #

    AlCum: He saved capitalism from collapse.

    Here’s another conspiracy for y’all. http://www.readersupportednews.org/opinion2/279-82/11847-did-republicans-deliberately-crash-the-us-economy

  34. avatar
    SluggoJD June 10, 2012 at 11:18 pm #

    MShaba:
    I do find it interesting that anyone who questions this is targeted with name calling.Has Obama released his true long form birth certificate?Or is this a facsimile?

    Even if you say you are not a birther, I understand that asking these questions means you will be attacked as such by Obamunists.

    Is is still a conspiracy that Obama was a member of the socialist New Party and ran on their ticket in the 1990′s or is that considered a bonus that Obama’s campaign has lied about?

    I’ll venture to guess that Obamunists wouldn’t want this out before the election as last.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/bensmith/obama-and-the-new-party
    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/06/08/Ben-Smith-Concedes-Obama-New-Party-Endorsement-But-Lets-Obama-Campaign-Get-Away-Without-Comment
    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/302204/ben-smith-and-evidence-stanley-kurtz

    I’ll be honest.

    I attack people like you, because you are racist scum, with no honor. You lie and deceive because you can’t stand the fact that someone darker than yourself has more power than you.

  35. avatar
    Keith June 10, 2012 at 11:31 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: However, the recent verification provided by the State of Hawaii that has been submitted to the Federal District Court in Mississippi states that the image on the Internet matches the State’s files.

    Technically, I believe that that the State of Hawaii verified that the INFORMATION displayed on the internet image matches the INFORMATION contained in the State’s files.

    Is that not correct?

    It is the point that I have been trying to make forever. The image is not a BC, only the BC is a BC. The information on the Internet images has been verified over and over and over and over.

    The information is what is relevant. It has been officially verified and independently corroborated.

    Whether a PDF has layers or not or shows artifacts from a dusty scanner glass or any of that similar crap is so far off topic it isn’t even on the same planet.

  36. avatar
    Lupin June 11, 2012 at 3:23 am #

    MShaba: I do find it interesting that anyone who questions this is targeted with name calling. Has Obama released his true long form birth certificate? Or is this a facsimile?

    Even if you say you are not a birther, I understand that asking these questions means you will be attacked as such by Obamunists.

    You amply deserve to be called an imbecile and more because you clearly have no idea what “communism” is all about. In fact Obama’s administration is widely regarded as being moderate right everywhere on the planet. It’s one thing to dislike your president, it’s another to mislabel him out of sheer stupidity and ignorance. It’s grotesque buffoons like you that give your right wing a bad name.

  37. avatar
    Thrifty June 11, 2012 at 7:48 am #

    Actually, the insults are because these questions were answered long ago, yet Birthers are still asking them. When the answers are again provided, they are ignored. It’s like a child who asks you a question, then responds to every answer with “Why?” Eventually, even the most patient parent gets fed up and snaps at the child.

    Birthers don’t ask questions to get information. They ask questions to try and make their absurd point.

    MShaba: I do find it interesting that anyone who questions this is targeted with name calling. Has Obama released his true long form birth certificate? Or is this a facsimile?

  38. avatar
    MShaba June 11, 2012 at 9:09 am #

    Well I didn’t call anyone an Obamunist but based on some reactionary responses, it hit a nerve. Also didn’t say anyone was a member of the ACORN left wing New Party that Obama was a member of back in the 1990′s.

    In 2008 the Obama campaign said this was a lie. Now his Chicago political operative Axelrod is pretending not to even know about the New Party and Obama at all. As if.

    While some people are screaming racist, I see not one person is denying it either. So that’s rather interesting too.

  39. avatar
    Thomas Brown June 11, 2012 at 9:10 am #

    MShaba: I do find it interesting that anyone who questions this is targeted with name calling.

    What would you call someone who tries to convince everyone in America that wolverines have taken on human form and infiltrated our auto manufacturers, nefariously building our car frames out of cream cheese?

    What would you call someone who claims Breitbart is not dead but being held at Guantanamo, waiting for the aliens who work for Eric Holder to take him to the Bermuda Triangle where he can be sent forward in time so he can’t threaten the President anymore?

    What would you call people who insist that cabbage plants have high intelligence, and are sending them messages warning of the pending zombie apocalypse via transmitters hidden in their sock drawers?

    Why, you would say “These people are lunatics.”

    Same thing with Birfers, only worse.

  40. avatar
    Paper June 11, 2012 at 9:22 am #

    Don’t insult the kid just being a kid! It’s not the same at all. A kid moves on to the *next* why. Why are there stars in the sky? Why was there a Big Bang? Etc.

    The birther keeps asking why to the *same* question. Why won’t Obama release his LFBC? He did. Why won’t Obama release his LFBC? He did. Why…

    Thrifty: It’s like a child who asks you a question, then responds to every answer with “Why?” Eventually, even the most patient parent gets fed up and snaps at the child.

  41. avatar
    Lupin June 11, 2012 at 10:41 am #

    MShaba: Well I didn’t call anyone an Obamunist but based on some reactionary responses, it hit a nerve.

    Yes you did; you wrote: “I understand that asking these questions means you will be attacked as such by Obamunists.” Your words.

    I note that you still have no clue as to what you’re talking about; I’m not sure if I can adequately convey to you the depth of your ignorance, but you are like a person pointing at a dog while shouting “what an ugly cat!”

    That’s you in a nutshell: stupidity, ignorance and bigotry in a single package.

  42. avatar
    Lupin June 11, 2012 at 10:42 am #

    Thomas Brown: What would you call people who insist that cabbage plants have high intelligence, and are sending them messages warning of the pending zombie apocalypse via transmitters hidden in their sock drawers?

    You do realize that we have to kill you now? :-)

  43. avatar
    Thrifty June 11, 2012 at 11:26 am #

    Yeah you’re right, but I was in a bit of a hurry when I wrote that comment and didn’t really take the time to think the metaphor through all the way.

    Paper:
    Don’t insult the kid just being a kid!It’s not the same at all.A kid moves on to the *next* why.Why are there stars in the sky?Why was there a Big Bang?Etc.

    The birther keeps asking why to the *same* question.Why won’t Obama release his LFBC? He did.Why won’t Obama release his LFBC?He did.Why…

  44. avatar
    Sef June 11, 2012 at 11:39 am #

    Thomas Brown: What would you call people who insist that cabbage plants have high intelligence,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmK0bZl4ILM

  45. avatar
    Thrifty June 11, 2012 at 11:53 am #

    Look, Mshaba, here’s the score.

    You aren’t inside one of your right wing asshole safe havens, where you can repeat the standard party line BS that you heard from some other right wing asshole, then expect everyone to stroke your ego and tell you how brilliant you are and you can all mutually congratulate yourselves on how much smarter you are than those dummy liberals.

    Nor are you on a Birther blog, where you can regurgitate the same discredited lies, with a few fresh new headlines now and then, and expect more of the same mutual congratulations while anyone who pipes up to say “Hey, that’s not true!” has his posts deleted. You’ll notice that for as much as we insult Birthers, we still let them post here, at least for a time. Usually what happens is that, because they’re not getting the praise they are used to in their havens, they become increasingly insulting and belligerent, and eventually do get banned. But they’re not banned for being Birthers. They’re banned for being assholes.

  46. avatar
    MShaba June 11, 2012 at 12:45 pm #

    Oh you don’t understand any of this about Axelrod and Obama’s membership in the New Party, the ACORN left wing group in the 1990′s?

    On the State of Hawaii, I’d like to see the real documentation not the facsimile put out. Scanning an original document is not some momentous impossibility. There’s something very odd how long this has gone on.

    I’ll restate I’m not convinced there is an issue on place of birth but there’s something likely not accurate about the father. There’s a reason this information was withheld for so long.

    Obama’s history has been manufactured. First according to his publicist for a book, he’s born in Kenya, then it’s changed when that no longer works to the narrative they want.

    Too many of these inconsistencies keep coming up.

    Not sure if the official “fight the smears” Obama website is going to keep holding up the facade that Obama was not a member of the New Party in the 1990′s. Saw one article where Axelrod is now pretending he doesn’t know about it.

    As if that’s credible? Wow.

    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/06/07/Exclusive-Axelrod-Plays-Dumb-on-Obama-and-Socialist-New-Party

    Which “conspiracy” do you attack on this one? Or rather do you call someone a racist you never met for asking the question?

    I’m still waiting to see anyone address the New Party membership Obama’s campaign denied in the last campaign. Or does it make you more excited to get behind a socialist even if they don’t fully embrace their past publicly?

  47. avatar
    BillTheCat June 11, 2012 at 2:58 pm #

    MShaba: Well I didn’t call anyone an Obamunist but based on some reactionary responses, it hit a nerve. Also didn’t say anyone was a member of the ACORN left wing New Party that Obama was a member of back in the 1990′s.In 2008 the Obama campaign said this was a lie. Now his Chicago political operative Axelrod is pretending not to even know about the New Party and Obama at all. As if.While some people are screaming racist, I see not one person is denying it either. So that’s rather interesting too.

    “The ACORN left wing New Party”? That’s quite a mashup. :D

    Another Breitbart Brat towing the lunatic line.

  48. avatar
    Horus June 11, 2012 at 3:08 pm #

    Chef: Those who believe the lfbc pdf is not a forgery have more in common with religious believers than the birther skeptics who demand a higher standard of proof.

    Just admit that NO Proof will ever satisfy you.
    Whenever Obama gives you what you want you either call it a forgery or move the goal posts.

  49. avatar
    Horus June 11, 2012 at 3:15 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: AlCum: It is a complete legal impossibility for the LFBC to be a forgery.

    Ever since Chef joined the super adventure friends he’s never been the same

    He’s become a pedophile!

  50. avatar
    MShaba June 11, 2012 at 3:23 pm #

    “Another Breitbart Brat towing the lunatic line.”

    Okay so that’s one for Obama was not affiliated with the ACORN backed New Party.

    Are the rest of you awaiting orders from the Obama Stop the Smears website before you weigh in on this “conspiracy?”

    Come on already what’s taking you so long?

  51. avatar
    Horus June 11, 2012 at 3:25 pm #

    MShaba: Is is still a conspiracy that Obama was a member of the socialist New Party and ran on their ticket in the 1990′s or is that considered a bonus that Obama’s campaign has lied about?

    Where do you get that it was a Socialist party.

  52. avatar
    Majority Will June 11, 2012 at 3:26 pm #

    Ignore the troll.

  53. avatar
    Thrifty June 11, 2012 at 3:31 pm #

    I can’t speak for everyone, but I think some of us have better things to do than be goaded into some silly fight with some hyperactive troll.

    MShaba:
    “Another Breitbart Brat towing the lunatic line.”

    Okay so that’s one for Obama was not affiliated with the ACORN backed New Party.

    Are the rest of you awaiting orders from the Obama Stop the Smears website before you weigh in on this “conspiracy?”

    Come on already what’s taking you so long?

  54. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 11, 2012 at 3:32 pm #

    MShaba:…
    On the State of Hawaii, I’d like to see the real documentation not the facsimile put out. Scanning an original document is not some momentous impossibility. There’s something very odd how long this has gone on.

    I don’t understand your point. The long form that Obama showed the press is a photocopy onto security paper issued by the State of Hawaii. I agree that the birthers continuing to blow smoke after this long is totally weird.

    I’ll restate I’m not convinced there is an issue on place of birth but there’s something likely not accurate about the father. There’s a reason this information was withheld for so long.

    Unlike Alice in Wonderland, believing something doesn’t make it so. Considering that Obama informed the world who his father was in a book written a decade before he ran for President, I don’t understand “waiting so long” unless you mean so long to release the long form. The long form would never have been released except that Donald Trump used his celebrity to distract the national debate away from important things and to nuttery.

    Obama’s history has been manufactured. First according to his publicist for a book, he’s born in Kenya, then it’s changed when that no longer works to the narrative they want.

    There are written pieces from Obama, prior to the publicist brochure saying Obama was born in Hawaii. You can imagine that the history has been manufactured, but you’re evidence is crap.

    Too many of these inconsistencies keep coming up.

    Birthers have fertile imaginations, not bound by plausibility.

    Not sure if the official “fight the smears” Obama website is going to keep holding up the facade that Obama was not a member of the New Party in the 1990′s. Saw one article where Axelrod is now pretending he doesn’t know about it.

    As if that’s credible? Wow.

    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/06/07/Exclusive-Axelrod-Plays-Dumb-on-Obama-and-Socialist-New-Party

    Which “conspiracy” do you attack on this one? Or rather do you call someone a racist you never met for asking the question?

    Straw man.

    I’m still waiting to see anyone address the New Party membership Obama’s campaign denied in the last campaign. Or does it make you more excited to get behind a socialist even if they don’t fully embrace their past publicly?

    I’m not sure this is rightly a conspiracy theory and appropriate for this web site. General political smears are not on topic. Keep in mind that Obama opponents define “socialist” as “anything Obama does” and that appears to be the definition used to make the “New Party” socialist. See:

    http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/The_dread_New_Party.html

  55. avatar
    Scientist June 11, 2012 at 3:35 pm #

    Horus: Where do you get that it was a Socialist party.

    What would be wrong if it were? The US has 2 parties that represent corporate interests. Why should there not be a party that represents working people? Most democratic countries have Socialist parties that have been in power at various times. Here in New York we have the Working Families Party, which sometimes backs Democrats and sometimes fields their own candidates.

    Isn’t having a choice a good thing? is there only Coke and Pepsi, or can I have a beer or lemonade? What does MShaba have against working families?

  56. avatar
    Scientist June 11, 2012 at 3:38 pm #

    MShaba: On the State of Hawaii, I’d like to see the real documentation not the facsimile put out.

    Check the court filing in Mississippi. If you expect Hawaii to print up and mail out 300 million hard copies, then you pay for it.

  57. avatar
    Rickey June 11, 2012 at 3:54 pm #

    MShaba:

    I’m still waiting to see anyone address the New Party membership Obama’s campaign denied in the last campaign.Or does it make you more excited to get behind a socialist even if they don’t fully embrace their past publicly?

    Not that it has anything to do with Obama’s eligibility, but I have seen no evidence that Obama was ever a member of the New Party. He may have asked for its endorsement once, but that wouldn’t have made him a member.

    Was he ever registered to vote as a member of the New Party? I don’t think so, but voter registration records are public records and any intrepid journalist would be able to check it out.

    In New York State, Republican candidates often run on the Conservative Party ticket and the Right of Life Party ticket at the same time they are running as Republicans. Does that make them members of the Conservative Party and the Right to Life Party? I don’t think so. New York State does not allow voters to be registered members of two or more parties at the same time.

  58. avatar
    BillTheCat June 11, 2012 at 4:24 pm #

    MShaba: “Another Breitbart Brat towing the lunatic line.”Okay so that’s one for Obama was not affiliated with the ACORN backed New Party.Are the rest of you awaiting orders from the Obama Stop the Smears website before you weigh in on this “conspiracy?”Come on already what’s taking you so long?

    No one gives a crap about your little “New Party” story, just like no one gave a crap about Breitbutthurt’s “video exclusive” he announced before he angried himself to death. No traction in even the birther press, let alone MSM. Let’s see your “proof”, then we’ll talk.

    In the end, you and your pathetic ilk don’t understand the word “Socialism” in seemingly any context. Not that it’s relevant at all, except to dirt licking seditionist liars like yourself who can’t fathom how America voted in a brown skinned man into the WH.

  59. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 11, 2012 at 4:56 pm #

    Whether Obama is a Socialist or not, and who he was associated with 20 years ago do not come under the heading of conspiracy theories, or “fringe views.” Political orientation is a judgement made on personal philosophy, not a claim about objective reality that could be falsified or verified.

    Hence I have started deleting MShaba’s comments on this topic, and I’d appreciate everyone else abandoning this off-topic theme.

    BillTheCat: No one gives a crap about your little “New Party” story, just like no one gave a crap about Breitbutthurt’s “video exclusive” he announced before he angried himself to death. No traction in even the birther press, let alone MSM. Let’s see your “proof”, then we’ll talk.

  60. avatar
    Thrifty June 11, 2012 at 5:52 pm #

    LOL at this. I love it when people turn adjectives into verbs.

    BillTheCat: No one gives a crap about your little “New Party” story, just like no one gave a crap about Breitbutthurt’s “video exclusive” he announced before he angried himself to death. No traction in even the birther press, let alone MSM. Let’s see your “proof”, then we’ll talk.

  61. avatar
    BillTheCat June 11, 2012 at 6:04 pm #

    Understood Doc, will do.

  62. avatar
    BillTheCat June 11, 2012 at 6:05 pm #

    Thrifty: LOL at this. I love it when people turn adjectives into verbs.

    I couldn’t think of a better way to put it lol :D

  63. avatar
    Thrifty June 11, 2012 at 9:31 pm #

    Verbing weirds language.

    BillTheCat: I couldn’t think of a better way to put it lol

  64. avatar
    JPotter June 11, 2012 at 9:47 pm #

    Thrifty: Verbing weirds language.

    “Maybe we can eventually make language an impediment to understanding.”

    Indeed, you can, Hobbes. Indeed, you can. Consider the work of this man.

  65. avatar
    Keith June 12, 2012 at 1:57 am #

    JPotter: Consider the work of this man.

    Or this one?

    Or maybe this one?

  66. avatar
    Lupin June 12, 2012 at 2:05 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Hence I have started deleting MShaba’s comments on this topic, and I’d appreciate everyone else abandoning this off-topic theme.

    Agreed. The man has the intelligence of a brick. (With apologies to bricks.)

  67. avatar
    JPotter June 12, 2012 at 3:03 am #

    Keith: Or this one?Or maybe this one?

    I like your examples better, much more entertaining :D

  68. avatar
    Horus June 12, 2012 at 11:49 am #

    Scientist: What would be wrong if it were?

    Not at all.
    I just did not see the word Socialist in anything about the New Party.

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