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Kansas secedes from the rational universe

KWCH-TV reports that the Kansas State Objections Board is asking for additional documents before they decide whether Barack Obama can be on the ballot for President in Kansas. The board consists of Secretary of State Kris Kobach, Attorney General Derek Schmidt and Lt. Gov. Jeff Colyer (all Republicans). Kobach said, “I don’t think it’s a frivolous objection,” referring to the the presentation by Manhattan, Kansas, resident Joe Montgomery who makes his case (primarily the two-citizen parent theory) in this video:

This story seems to be a repeat of the Ken Bennett fiasco in Arizona: Bennett asks Hawaii for verification – Hawaii sends verification – Bennett looks silly for asking to verify a document the White House released over a year ago and the State of Hawaii has verified on its web site for as long. There is a twist, however, in Kansas where they are asking for:

…certified documents from Hawaii and two other states where similar questions about Obama’s citizenship have been raised.

Is this like a credit card and two photo IDs? The Topeka Capitol-Journal indicates that the documents from the “other two states” are the verifications Hawaii sent to Arizona Secretary of State Ken Bennett, and the one sent to the Mississippi Democratic Party Executive Committee (subsequently filed with the federal court in Mississippi). I’m baffled by the request for three copies of the same verification, unless they are actually just asking for one of the three. I presume that this will be resolved by the State of Hawaii sending the certified verification that they have sent twice before. It seems rather a waste of time, though.

The obvious question is whether the particulars of Kansas law require the Objections Board to do what they did, or whether they have just gone birther. To this observer, it looks like the Objections Board is trying to get out of a sticky spot. I believe that they would approve Obama for the ballot no matter what documents they get, but this way, they get some birther creds for asking the question; however, if no documents are forthcoming by Monday, their self-imposed deadline, things will get messy for the board.

Should the board exclude Obama from the ballot, then clearly the Democratic Party and/or the Obama campaign will sue and they will have an injury in fact. It is not necessarily true that the question of who is a natural born citizen will be adjudicated, because a court may rule in Obama’s favor, saying that states have no authority to exclude presidential candidates over eligibility questions.

I poked around the Kansas election statutes a little, and didn’t find much. It certainly looks bad when all the members of the Objections Board are from the same political party.

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82 Responses to Kansas secedes from the rational universe

  1. avatar
    US Citizen September 14, 2012 at 2:31 am #

    ” It certainly looks bad when all the members of the Objections Board are from the same political party. ”

    Why? Isn’t the GOP the most objectionable party around?

  2. avatar
    Lupin September 14, 2012 at 3:15 am #

    Par for the course: suspicious black man [pleonasm] must show his papers to the Man. I’m so not surprised.

  3. avatar
    The Magic M September 14, 2012 at 4:16 am #

    “25-2802: Political affiliation of judges and clerks of election. Of the members of any election board, not including the supervising judge, not more than one-half of the clerks shall be of the same political party, and not more than one-half of the judges shall be of the same political party, except in the case of a three-member election board. In the case of a three-member election board, the members thereof, excluding the supervising judge, shall be of different political parties. The provisions of this section shall not apply if the officers of political organizations required to make recommendations for such appointees fail to so recommend, or if the persons so recommended fail or refuse to qualify or serve.

    Did the Dems not bother to nominate candidates for the board?

  4. avatar
    The Magic M September 14, 2012 at 4:19 am #

    > To this observer, it looks like the Objections Board is trying to get out of a sticky spot. I believe that they would approve Obama for the ballot no matter what documents they get, but this way, they get some birther creds for asking the question; however, if no documents are forthcoming by Monday, their self-imposed deadline, things will get messy for the board.

    I think someone is trying really hard not to get elected. His name begins with an “M” and he’s allegedly the candidate for the Grumpy Old Poopers. 😉

  5. avatar
    Northland10 September 14, 2012 at 7:32 am #

    Seeing as Kobach is the one behind the immigration measures in Arizona and Alabama, the Arizona one being bounced from the suit brought by the DOJ, I suspect he is playing his own “king of the hill” game. He knows darn well there is nothing there but he is going to demand that the Obama team pay him homage in his kingdom. They need to come genuflect to him. He is the boss here.

    Childish and petty but could easily be a calculation to stir up his supporters who will get all hot and bothered that he is standing up to the evil one.

  6. avatar
    foreigner September 14, 2012 at 8:19 am #

    HDOH just make a copy for each state.
    Estimated time “wasted” : 30min

  7. avatar
    Scientist September 14, 2012 at 8:29 am #

    So the members of one party get to decide whether the opposing party candidate can be on the ballot? Why not have the manager of the AL team decide which NL team he wants to face in the World Series (or perhaps just declare his team the automatic winners)? Or try this: Bashir Assad decides to hold an election and appoints 3 Baathists to decide whether the opposition candidate can be on the ballot.

    How exactly is this Kansas situation different from the above? Is this acceptable in a country that claims to be about freedom and democracy?

  8. avatar
    john September 14, 2012 at 8:41 am #

    If birthers move quickly, they can bring in Larry Klayman, Mike Zullo and others to be there on Monday to vigorously object to any verification of Obama’s birth certificate brought forward in defense for Obama. Remember, Larry Klayman wrote a letter to the DNC stating that the verifications obtained in AZ and MS do not prove in any way Obama’s birth there. The verifications must be rejected and nothing short than the original certified copy of Obama’s long form BC will suffice. http://www.wnd.com/files/2012/09/BauerLetter.pdf

  9. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 14, 2012 at 9:00 am #

    I don’t follow your argument that a certified verification is insufficient. There’s noting in the Constitution about birth certificates.

    Producing a certified copy of the original is problematic. Hawaii, under its laws cannot issue one to Kansas, and if Obama were to submit one his copies, the birthers (you first among them) would say it’s a forgery. So nothing changes.

    You might say that the State of Kansas could forensically examine the document, but the birthers would just say the Obama administration “got to them.” After all, the birthers said all the courts are corrupt.

    john: The verifications must be rejected and nothing short than the original certified copy of Obama’s long form BC will suffice.

  10. avatar
    john September 14, 2012 at 9:08 am #

    Well, I guess that’s tough for Obama Doc. He doesn’t get on the ballot. At least, that’s how the Kansas board should see it. Either Obama’s produces his original long form BC or the microfilm or Obama doesn’t get on the ballot. It’s really that simple.

  11. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 14, 2012 at 9:09 am #

    What good would that do? You act as if birthers believed evidence. That is a serious misunderstanding.

    Birthers only demand a certified copy of the original birth certificate (what the White House already released and showed the press) because they don’t have it, not because it would convince them.

    foreigner: HDOH just make a copy for each state.
    Estimated time “wasted” : 30min

  12. avatar
    The Magic M September 14, 2012 at 9:16 am #

    john: Remember, Larry Klayman wrote a letter to the DNC stating that the verifications obtained in AZ and MS do not prove in any way Obama’s birth there.

    And where did that get him?

    Also, remember that the election board’s standard is still “clear and convincing evidence” with the burden of proof on the objector.
    So Obama does not have to prove anything here. If Hawaii sends another verification, it’s over for the birthers. If Hawaii does not, the board still cannot take Obama off the ballot by its own standards since no-one has brought “clear and convincing evidence” that Obama was not born in Hawaii.
    And no, none of your anecdotal hearsay evidence (promotional flyers, posters in Kenyan huts, claims from individuals “he was born there” etc.) will meet that standard.

    The election board dug itself a hole. Even if it was meant to pander to birthers, they still will have to keep Obama on the ballot, thus effectively labeling them “traitors” in birtherverse. Nothing gained. (Except maybe they hoped this would be a publicity stunt that somehow benefits Romney. He needs it desperately, after all.)

    The most ridiculous part is how they pretty much say “I don’t believe what SOS Bennett says”, otherwise they wouldn’t ask for *another* confirmation after knowing that Bennett got one.
    Silly sovereign state games? Petty ego? Well, my money is still on what I said in the predceding paragraph.

  13. avatar
    Arthur September 14, 2012 at 9:52 am #

    US Citizen: ” It certainly looks bad when all the members of the Objections Board are from the same political party. ”

    It’s actually worse than that. Kris Koback, the Kansas Secretary of State and one of the three Republicans on the Objections Board, serves as Romney’s immigration advisor.

    http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/09/14/848711/kobach-birther-kansas/

    So here’s a second time that a SoS who works with Romney is involved in supporting a birther ballot challenge against Obama.

    Why, if I were a birther, I’d call this a conspiracy.

  14. avatar
    donna September 14, 2012 at 10:03 am #

    Kris Koback serves as Romney’s immigration advisor and helped the recalled russel pearce draft az’s sb1070

    kobach certainly knows about bennett’s hi verification

    bennett is also a republican, mormon and romney’s az co-chair

    in the latino community/media, kobach is referred to as “public enemy number one”

  15. avatar
    Paper September 14, 2012 at 10:18 am #

    Beyond Dr. C’s response, I will note you could get your way *if* all the states requested a verification for purposes complying with Hawaiian law. But you’ll notice most states are not making such a request.

    If my Secretary of State requested such a verification, I, among many, would be seriously reconsidering who I vote for governor next time (SoS is appointed in my state). Birtherism is a sign of incompetence and poisoned political motivations. Thus, most states are not interested in wasting *their* time on something that could get them kicked out of office.

    For many state officials that thirty minutes of which you speak could be thirty minutes they regret for the rest of their careers. Not every state is pandering to Birthers. Again, you do not understand American politics.

    foreigner:
    HDOH just make a copy for each state.
    Estimated time “wasted” : 30min

  16. avatar
    donna September 14, 2012 at 10:25 am #

    “foreigner”:

    remember what nh’s REPUBLICAN House Majority Leader D.J. Bettencourt wrote:

    “Please, Dr. Taitz, go away and leave New Hampshire alone”

  17. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 14, 2012 at 10:26 am #

    Fortunately for the country, you don’t get to decide.

    john: Well, I guess that’s tough for Obama Doc. He doesn’t get on the ballot. At least, that’s how the Kansas board should see it. Either Obama’s produces his original long form BC or the microfilm or Obama doesn’t get on the ballot. It’s really that simple.

  18. avatar
    Tarrant September 14, 2012 at 10:28 am #

    Looking at the writeup of the hearing, Kobach clearly stated that the burden of proof is on Montgomery…but then completely ignored his statement and decided to ask the President to show his papers anyway.

    I believe Kobach is simply trying to score political points in retaliation for the gutting of his immigration law by the DOJ at the Supreme Court. Come Monday, when the Obama campaign submits nothing (it’s possible he could request a verification from Hawaii, but the campaign isn’t going to help him), he will probably wax poetic about how distraught he is that the Obama campaign isn’t helping, and what he could possibly be hiding by not simply showing what they asked for, but rule that the law says the burden is on the objector, and Montgomery didn’t prove the President was born somewhere else.

    There’s a few reasons for this – one, that’s what the law in Kansas says. Two, even he didn’t buy the Minor v. Happersett two-citizen-parent stuff. Three, while the Romney campaign has been dog-whistling to birthers (Trump, Bennett, Kobach, etc.) from the beginning, he’s gone out of his way to make sure he didn’t actually have to address the issue. Kobach must know that an all-Republican panel throwing the incumbent Democratic President off the ballot would be one thing that would fire up an otherwise lackluster Democratic base, would make many independents feel like the Republicans aren’t playing fair, would be reversed by a court, and on top of that, would require Mitt Romney to either repudiate birtherism entirely, or embrace it – and alienate some segment of the voting population.

    No way Kobach, given he’s on Romney’s advisory team, would do that. So he’ll dog-whistle for a few more days, grumble that this would all have been easily dealt with if the President had just shown his papers, openly wonder what he’s hiding, then keep him on the ballot.

  19. avatar
    gorefan September 14, 2012 at 10:29 am #

    In fairness to Koback, he did clearify the “frivolous” comment

    “A ‘frivolous’ argument, in legal terms, is one that cannot reasonably be made under any circumstances,” Kobach wrote. “The objection passed that very low threshold, which is not saying much.”

    http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/09/kansas_birther_kris_kobach.php

    And in the eyewitness account of the hearing posted at the Fogbow by Slash2k, Koback said that Minor v. Happersett does not define NBC as requiring two parents.

  20. avatar
    dch September 14, 2012 at 10:42 am #

    So if a “concerned citizen” says that Romney is a Mexican dual citizen does that mean they would pull his name off as well? I mean we can’t take the chance after all. What if Mitt is also a citizen of the Caymen Islands due to all of that wealth he keeps there? That is we need to see his Long Form 1040.

  21. avatar
    Thinker September 14, 2012 at 10:48 am #

    There is no such thing as placating birfers. As with most extremists, they believe that a person is either with them 100% or against them 100%. Obama will be on the ballot in Kansas. If Kobach decides to try to keep him off the ballot, he will lose in court. That is 100% guaranteed. Unless Kobach is prepared to defy a court order (I doubt he is that nuts) he will come out of this full of birfer stink, ridiculed by sane people and reviled by birfers. There is absolutely no political advantage to be gained by placating conspiracy theorists and nutjobs. They are, by definition, extremist who will not be appeased by anything but the most extreme measures. In this case, that would mean Obama would not be on the ballot in Kansas, which is not going to happen. Furthermore, I predict that Kobach and his staff will be so harassed by birfers and ridiculed in the media in the next couple of days that he will want nothing more than to put this shameful episode behind him ASAP.

  22. avatar
    pounder1955 September 14, 2012 at 10:51 am #

    Don’t Forget The Republican Credo

    THE REPUBLICAN CREDO:

    “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.”
    ― Adolf Hitler

    “What luck for rulers that men do not think.”
    ― Adolf Hitler

    “It is not truth that matters, but victory.”
    ― Adolf Hitler

    “Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.”
    ― Adolf Hitler

    “By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise.”
    ― Adolf Hitler

    “I do not see why man should not be as cruel as nature”
    ― Adolf Hitler

    “The receptivity of the masses is very limited, their intelligence is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous. In consequence of these facts, all effective propaganda must be limited to a very few points and must harp on these in slogans until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand by your slogan.”
    ― Adolf Hitler

    “I use emotion for the many and reserve reason for the few.”
    ― Adolf Hitler

    “Humanitarianism is the expression of stupidity and cowardice.”
    ― Adolf Hitler

    “How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don’t think”
    ― Adolf Hitler

    “Woman’s world is her husband, her family, her children and her home. We do not find it right when she presses into the world of men.”
    ― Adolf Hitler

    “The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one.”
    ― Adolf Hitler

    “But the most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly and with unflagging attention. It must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over. Here, as so often in this world, persistence is the first and most important requirement for success.”
    ― Adolf Hitler

  23. avatar
    Rickey September 14, 2012 at 10:52 am #

    john:
    Well, I guess that’s tough for Obama Doc.He doesn’t get on the ballot.At least, that’s how the Kansas board should see it.Either Obama’s produces his original long form BC or the microfilm or Obama doesn’t get on the ballot.It’s really that simple.

    I see that your delusions continue unabated.

    The original long form BC and the microfilm (if it exists) are not Obama’s to produce. They belong to the State of Hawaii.

    And if the Kansas board does foolishly rule that Obama should not be on the ballot, the ruling will stand for a day or two. Obama’s attorneys will file a lawsuit in Federal Court, where they will ask for and receive a restraining order prohibiting Kansas from removing his name from the ballot.

    I hope that you are prepared for yet another crushing disappointment.

  24. avatar
    The Magic M September 14, 2012 at 11:05 am #

    Thinker: There is absolutely no political advantage to be gained by placating conspiracy theorists and nutjobs.

    But many who are anti-Obama, even if not birthers themselves, believe that the issue might make some people not vote for Obama if it’s kept on low to medium flame.

    So if Kobach is pandering to anyone, it’s not the pure-bred birther fringe but those who think that if the issue comes up often enough, even in passing, it will create a background noise that is perceived as “controversy” and might, if only subconsciously, swing some votes (and possibly more than it will alienate).

    I’ve also predicted that increased signs of birtherism from the GOP itself will be a tell-tale sign of growing desperation with Romney’s chances at the elections. And that the GOP candidate might even fully embrace birtherism as a Hail Mary strategy if his advisors believe that the election is a lost cause. So depending on what the polls say as the elections draw closer, we might see more of that. (Though I was really surprised when Trump pulled out from the RNC. Maybe he was told that the chances are good enough for Romney to win, and that they won’t take the risk of birtherism ruining that chance. After all, it would be an all-in gamble. If it fails, it will sink the GOP for years to come.)

  25. avatar
    Tarrant September 14, 2012 at 11:09 am #

    The Magic M: But many who are anti-Obama, even if not birthers themselves, believe that the issue might make some people not vote for Obama if it’s kept on low to medium flame.

    So if Kobach is pandering to anyone, it’s not the pure-bred birther fringe but those who think that if the issue comes up often enough, even in passing, it will create a background noise that is perceived as “controversy” and might, if only subconsciously, swing some votes (and possibly more than it will alienate).

    I’ve also predicted that increased signes of birtherism from the GOP itself will be a tell-tale sign of growing desperation with Romney’s chances at the elections. And that the GOP candidate might even fully embrace birtherism as a Hail Mary strategy if his advisors believe that the election is a lost cause. So depending on what the polls say as the elections draw closer, we might see more of that. (Though I was really surprised when Trump pulled out from the RNC. Maybe he was told that the chances are good enough for Romney to win, and that they won’t take the risk of birtherism ruining that chance. After all, it would be an all-in gamble. If it fails, it will sink the GOP for years to come.)

    I agree, hence my comment on the Romney campaign and various Republicans sending dog-whistles to birthers.

    If they fully embrace birtherism, I think they will put people off. But by keeping the issue alive, but not actually endorsing it, and sending various “What could he be hiding?” messages now and then, they create said controversy.

    The challenge for them is to hope that some birther event doesn’t ‘explode’ and become national news. A Romney advisor and all-Republican panel throwing the Democratic incumbent off the ballot would be disastrous. But said Romney advisor bemoaning the fact that the President won’t show his documents and wondering what he’s hiding, then voting to keep him, is the kind of simmering and dog whistling that they have been doing all election cycle.

  26. avatar
    James M September 14, 2012 at 11:09 am #

    Doesn’t this end by pointing out that no “verifications” from other states is required for the other candidate(s)? Seems like the whole thing falls down on the first mention of Equal Protection.

  27. avatar
    Lupin September 14, 2012 at 11:10 am #

    john must be increasing his daily dose of magic mushroom because his argument is more nonsensical than ever — and tat says a lot.

    Imagine a world where actual, original bound copies of official documents would be carted from state to state (even country to country) in armored trucks under armed guard to satisfy the whims of deluded local officials.

    At this point, we’re talking the Middle Ages or Monty Python’s version of the same.

    john is completely mad.

  28. avatar
    Lupin September 14, 2012 at 11:12 am #

    Tarrant: The challenge for them is to hope that some birther event doesn’t ‘explode’ and become national news.

    I could be wrong, but IMHO there’s no way on Earth this bit of News (ie: “Romney stooge tries to block Obama from appearing on KS ballots”) can be good news from Romney.

    It offends the basic sense of fairness of any sane American. It’s bound to backfire.

  29. avatar
    Tarrant September 14, 2012 at 11:30 am #

    Lupin: I could be wrong, but IMHO there’s no way on Earth this bit of News (ie: “Romney stooge tries to block Obama from appearing on KS ballots”) can be good news from Romney.

    It offends the basic sense of fairness of any sane American. It’s bound to backfire.

    The thing is, it’s not really national news right now. If you follow birtherism, you know about it. If you read sites that cater to the left or right, you MIGHT have heard of this. But most people? They won’t have heard of it at all. If the board votes on Monday to keep him on the ballot, most people will never even know there was a hearing, and if they did and see the result, they’ll think “Oh, OK, they had a hearing and found the President is A-OK” and think nothing of the birther dog-whistling.

    However, if the board votes to remove him from the ballot, it will instantly become nationwide news. Romney will be asked about it at every press conference, especially given the Secretary of State is one of his campaign advisors. The President will give a small speech talking about how an all-Republican panel is subverting democracy and fairness. Romney cannot come out ahead in such a case, I think.

  30. avatar
    Bob September 14, 2012 at 11:50 am #

    It’s just as likely that the board felt sorry for- and embarrassed by- these Birthers and was just letting them down easy.

  31. avatar
    Scientist September 14, 2012 at 11:55 am #

    Lupin: I could be wrong, but IMHO there’s no way on Earth this bit of News (ie: “Romney stooge tries to block Obama from appearing on KS ballots”) can be good news from Romney.It offends the basic sense of fairness of any sane American. It’s bound to backfire.

    It would be a real problem for Romney. It would show that he can’t control his party, which would raise serious questions about how he would be able to deal with Congress if elected.

    But don’t think it will come to that. Rep. Tim Huelskamp, a very conservative Kansas Republican (and that is saying something) says “Obama will be on the ballot in Kansas”
    http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/09/kansas_rep_obama_will_be_on_the_ballot.php?ref=fpb

  32. avatar
    G September 14, 2012 at 12:03 pm #

    Agreed. That is pretty much what these pandering stunts are all about.

    The Magic M: But many who are anti-Obama, even if not birthers themselves, believe that the issue might make some people not vote for Obama if it’s kept on low to medium flame.So if Kobach is pandering to anyone, it’s not the pure-bred birther fringe but those who think that if the issue comes up often enough, even in passing, it will create a background noise that is perceived as “controversy” and might, if only subconsciously, swing some votes (and possibly more than it will alienate).I’ve also predicted that increased signs of birtherism from the GOP itself will be a tell-tale sign of growing desperation with Romney’s chances at the elections. And that the GOP candidate might even fully embrace birtherism as a Hail Mary strategy if his advisors believe that the election is a lost cause. So depending on what the polls say as the elections draw closer, we might see more of that. (Though I was really surprised when Trump pulled out from the RNC. Maybe he was told that the chances are good enough for Romney to win, and that they won’t take the risk of birtherism ruining that chance. After all, it would be an all-in gamble. If it fails, it will sink the GOP for years to come.)

  33. avatar
    Mitch September 14, 2012 at 12:03 pm #

    I wish someone would ask Romney about this during the debates. It would be hilarious to see him dance around this one.

  34. avatar
    G September 14, 2012 at 12:07 pm #

    Well said.

    Lupin: At this point, we’re talking the Middle Ages or Monty Python’s version of the same.
    john is completely mad.

  35. avatar
    sponson September 14, 2012 at 12:43 pm #

    Kobach, a member of this “Objections Board,” is Mitt Romney’s top adviser on immigration and the de facto author of the Arizona and Alabama anti-immigration laws.

  36. avatar
    Arthur September 14, 2012 at 12:43 pm #

    Conservative Kansas Congressman: Obama ‘Will Be On The Ballot’

    http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/09/kansas_rep_obama_will_be_on_the_ballot.php?ref=fpa

  37. avatar
    bgansel9 September 14, 2012 at 1:00 pm #

    john: Well, I guess that’s tough for Obama Doc. He doesn’t get on the ballot.

    Even if Obama somehow doesn’t make it on the ballot, it doesn’t change the election. All it does is disenfranchise voters who want to vote for Obama. The Electoral College chooses presidents and the EC will not be affected by this at all. Obama has the EC votes without Kansas, which was never going to go to him. Enjoy your small victory (if it turns out to be one) because that’s all you’re getting.

  38. avatar
    PaulG September 14, 2012 at 1:01 pm #

    pounder1955:
    Don’t Forget The Republican Credo

    THE REPUBLICAN CREDO:

    “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.”
    ― Adolf Hitler

    “What luck for rulers that men do not think.”
    ― Adolf Hitler

    many more quotes omitted

    Are all those quotes genuine?

    Anyway, I agree Obama shouldn’t give these jack-a**es an inch. He hadn’t got a chance of getting Kansas to begin with and to see him do anything that might be called pandering to them would make my head explode. Make them back down and it might even get him a few more votes.

  39. avatar
    roadburner September 14, 2012 at 1:07 pm #

    apologies again doc. i saw the article and saw red (which for me is rare to say the least), and posted without seeing if i was repeating.

    feel free to delete my last post

    anyone who hit that site of hatred with a virus of biblical proportions would be on my christmas card list for the next 3 decades.

  40. avatar
    ASK Esq September 14, 2012 at 1:20 pm #

    Lupin: I could be wrong, but IMHO there’s no way on Earth this bit of News (ie: “Romney stooge tries to block Obama from appearing on KS ballots”) can be good news from Romney.

    Remember, Lupin, now the correct headline would have to read: “Another Romney stooge tries to block Obama from appearing on State ballot.” I can’t imagine that would make things better for Mitt.

  41. avatar
    jayHG September 14, 2012 at 1:32 pm #

    Paper said: “Birtherism is a sign of incompetence and poisoned political motivations. Thus, most states are not interested in wasting *their* time on something that could get them kicked out of office.

    For many state officials that thirty minutes of which you speak could be thirty minutes they regret for the rest of their careers. Not every state is pandering to Birthers. Again, you do not understand American politics.”

    This post from Paper is the birther “movement” and their erstwhile supporters in a nutshell. I swear, these birthers are alternately maddening (sometimes) and boring!

  42. avatar
    sfjeff September 14, 2012 at 1:45 pm #

    john: Well, I guess that’s tough for Obama Doc. He doesn’t get on the ballot. At least, that’s how the Kansas board should see it. Either Obama’s produces his original long form BC or the microfilm or Obama doesn’t get on the ballot. It’s really that simple.

    Love your logic John- so if a Kansan filed the exact same objection to Mitt Romney- he would be off the ballot too?

    Kansas would just be out of luck when it came to either major party candidate.

    Heck I bet with minimal effort, every candidate could be purged from the election in Kansas.

    Just tough for Kansas I guess….apparently you think that Kansas election rules are essentially political suicide for the state.

  43. avatar
    RetiredLawyer September 14, 2012 at 1:46 pm #

    I believe that the Dems on the panel deliberately stayed away. Thus forcing the Reps to act all on their own vis a vis the birther challenge. The Reps have dutifully floundered around, and made mis-step after mis-step. Win-win.

  44. avatar
    Yoda September 14, 2012 at 1:59 pm #

    8 Supreme Court cases? 8, in actuality there are no cases that support the two citizen parents delusion. Not one and at least four that are directly contrary.

    Montgomery is a flat out liar. While he mentioned Luria, yes, Luria did cite Minor, but it cited Minor for the exact opposite proposition that he claims. In Luria, the Court, citing Minor, said that the only difference between a “native citizen” and a naturalized citizen is eligiblity to be President. The Court clearly equated NBC and native born citizenship. They did the same thing in Baumgartner, which cited Luria.

    Of course, he misrepresented th holdings in both Wong Kim Ark and Minor. Like all birthers, he ignores the fact that the Court in MInor did not limit the defintiion of NBC to the class it identified and it expressly refused to do so, indicating that the issue was not necessary to resolve for the purpose of the decision (to those who want to point out that the Court used the word citizen and not natural born citizen when it was talking about the children of aliens, this is silly. Clearly, the Court was referring to citizenship at birth because it would impossible it to be referring to naturalized citizenship). In fact, in Minor, the Court called the children of citizen parents (which does not necessarily means 2 citizen parents) as citizens at birth and THEN said these (citizens at birth) are natives or natural born citizens. Here you have the Supreme Court again equating NBC with native citizens (and thus the basis for the citation of Minor in Luria) and both of them mean citizens at birth.

    He also contends that the Court’s use of Minor in the Wong Kim Ark decision means something. False. He ignores the fact that Waite used that as part of the 20 or so page analysis as to what NBC means. He also ignores the fact that the Court went on to say that there are only two kinds of citizens, citizens at birth and naturalized citizens. Here, we see yet again, that the Court equated citizens at birth and natural born citizens. Of course the Court also concluded that a child born on US soil, with two exceptions, are natural born citizens. The most important aspect, however, is that in reality the Court went beyond being born on US soil, the Court implicitly stated that any person who is a citizen at birth is a NBC. This is consistent with the MInor and logic.

    There are only two kinds of citizens, natural born and naturalized. If one is a citizen one he can only be one or the other. There are no other options. I have heard people say that one can be a native without being natural born, but that is inconistent with Luria and Baumgartner.

    There is no mechanism under our system of laws for a child to be natualized at birth. In fact, naturalization requires that a person achieve a certain age and go through a naturalization process. A citizen at birth is a NBC. Once again, this is consistent with Wong Kim Ark, Luria, Minor and Baumgartner.

    Title 8, Section 1401 of the US code defines citizens at birth. Being born on US soil is sufficient to be citizen at birth and therefore NBC. AND this is constistent with Minor and Wong Kim Ark.

    Simply put, a natural born citizen is one who aquires citizenship by the act of being born. There are no cases, no statutes, no laws, and no authority for any opinion to the contrary, at least not from a legal standpoint.

  45. avatar
    slash2k September 14, 2012 at 2:09 pm #

    RetiredLawyer: there are no Dems on that panel. By law, the Kansas objections board is composed of three particular state officials (attorney general, secretary of state, and lieutenant governor); Republicans currently control all of the Kansas statewide offices.

    My own take is that this is merely game-playing: Kobach wants to flirt with the birthers for a little while, but has no serious intent of getting sucked into their fantasies, while Atty Genl Schmidt seemed as if he would have voted to keep Obama on the ballot if that motion had come up, but was perfectly happy going along with asking for more documentation too.

  46. avatar
    Bob September 14, 2012 at 2:39 pm #

    All the defense did was to write a letter. It’s like swatting away flies.

  47. avatar
    Thomas Brown September 14, 2012 at 2:40 pm #

    Thank you Yoda for a thorough, clear and indisputable treatment of NBCship. Your whole post shows that this is not a partisan matter; the law is what it is: two types of citizen, period.

    Which means that, to Birthers, you are now an evil Socialist Obot and part of the Conspiracy to Destroy America.

  48. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 14, 2012 at 2:42 pm #

    I moved it to the Open Thread.

    roadburner: apologies again doc. i saw the article and saw red (which for me is rare to say the least), and posted without seeing if i was repeating.

  49. avatar
    Yoda September 14, 2012 at 2:47 pm #

    Thanks, sorry for the typos. As for the names I will be called, I have been called much worse by much better people than birthers. I couldn’t care less what birthers think of me. I have no respect for them as people, let alone respect for their opinions.

  50. avatar
    misha September 14, 2012 at 3:05 pm #

    I hope Kansas votes to strike Obama from the ballot.

    Late night comedians need the material.

  51. avatar
    G September 14, 2012 at 4:07 pm #

    Regardless of this crazy political posturing, it is extremely unlikely that this board would vote to strike Obama from the ballot. Some of them might think they would score political points by making attention out of this silly issue, but it only provides even more of an opening to backfire upon them…as is already happening in news coverage of the event. Still, a number of the Birther propagandist hacks have always operated under the mistaken belief that any attention they get is somehow a “boon” to their twisted goals.

    While I too have laughed at the results of the “Empty Chair Technique”, I’ve never advocated for it myself. I think it too smacks of unnecessary political posturing to an extent. Don’t give your opponents any easy opportunity to slide in crap undefended – period. That is my stance. But I am not saying that a physical presence was needed either. As we have learned more from the reporting, the Dems did submit a written statement as to why they objected to this frivolous challenge. They may simply have been too short and lax with their written reply. Regardless, I’m suspecting that they will be smart enough to provide a minimally sufficient response of information on Monday to prevent this stupid farce from unnecessarily being further made into a bigger matter than it ever deserved to become.

    Should this somehow devolve into a political pissing contest and go beyond Monday, then such grandstanding would not survive a court challenge. Rest assured, Obama will be on the KS ballot as there is no true legal reason to exclude him. But it is beneath the dignity of our elections for either side to treat this as a “gotcha” matter of political chicken and allow this molehill farce to be artificially built into some sort of mountain issue, when it is not.

    In regards to your comment abou the late night comedians – no they don’t need the material either. They’ve got quite the buffet available to them already. The Romney campaign is giving them a bountiful amount of new material on a daily basis. Today’s latest dumb misstatements about middle class income levels and the reports on their weird taped “Live with Kelly” interview, should provide several days of fodder alone.

    Personally, I can’t wait to see the return of a new season of SNL, starting tomorrow night. This election cycle will prove to be a real boon to their ratings, as their political skits and commentary tend to get a lot of buzzworthy watercooler coverage afterwords.

    misha: I hope Kansas votes to strike Obama from the ballot.Late night comedians need the material.

  52. avatar
    gorefan September 14, 2012 at 4:21 pm #

    Kansas objection is being withdrawn by Montgomery.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/14/kansas-birther-case-obama-joe-montgomery_n_1884936.html?utm_hp_ref=elections-2012

  53. avatar
    G September 14, 2012 at 4:32 pm #

    KUDOS for finding and sharing that quick development.

    Some key excerpts from the article:

    A Kansas man who filed an objection with the state to President Barack Obama appearing on the state’s ballot, is withdrawing his objection.
    Joe Montgomery’s decision, which he communicated in an email to the secretary of state’s office Friday afternoon, ends a process that caused the all-Republican Kansas Objections Board to vote unanimously Thursday to seek further information before making a decision on whether Obama could be on the ballot.
    Montgomery told The Huffington Post Friday afternoon that public reaction to the complaint led him to decide against continuing. He declined to say exactly what was said in the calls and emails he received, but indicated that people who knew him both personally and professionally were also contacted about the complaint.
    “I didn’t file this objection with the desire to involve anyone else. This is me expressing myself on a personal political level,” he said. “I would appreciate it if people would not call anyone associated with me, whether a personal or professional association.”

    Montgomery wanted to start a dialogue with his objection, he said. “I have not been successful in that objective,” he told HuffPost. “Not in achieving a constructive dialogue.”

    “But we are in Kansas, and Kobach has been waiting for this moment for a long time. The pretense that this has any validity and needs further investigation is ridiculous. Kobach seems to enjoy this type of thing. It panders to his base of birthers.”
    Kobach, an informal adviser to Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney, said at the board meeting that he was not acting in a partisan role, but rather wanted as much information as possible before the board made a final decision.
    Mah told HuffPost she believes the episode has hurt the state’s reputation. “They are making Kansas a laughing stock again,” she said, referring to Kobach, Colyer and Schmidt.

    Well, this is just further evidence that Birtherism is a dead-fish issue for the GOP, even in Kansas and that the blowback from being tarred with Birtherism is worse than any gains they perceive from their cynical propaganda pandering to Birthers, in the first place.

    gorefan: Kansas objection is being withdrawn by Montgomery.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/14/kansas-birther-case-obama-joe-montgomery_n_1884936.html?utm_hp_ref=elections-2012

  54. avatar
    gorefan September 14, 2012 at 4:40 pm #

    G: the blowback from being tarred with Birtherism is worse than any gains

    I was sorry to see him withdraw for the reasons stated. I would much prefer that the Board had to rule the President eligible. Plus I agree with him that contacting people associated with him but who may or may not agree with him was uncalled for. I know birthers have done that in the past to people at Fogbow and other sites, but I find it unseemly.

  55. avatar
    G September 14, 2012 at 4:42 pm #

    According to ORYR, looks like we’ll have a different failed ballot challenge to discuss on Monday, with Kansas now off the table:

    http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2012/09/illinois-ballot-challenge-filed-obamas.html

    In other words, the same “Michael Jackson” nut, who failed miserably with a nearly identical Birther ballot challenge against Obama in IL last spring, is back. The board didn’t put up with his frivolous BS last time, so expect this retread to be dismissed just as quickly as it was last time.

    As usual, the Birthers have nothing better do do than keep repeating their same failed nonsense over and over and over again…in the insanity of expecting a different result.

    So, expect more of these retreads and failed ballot challenge attempts. Their other “big idea” that is getting them all excited lately amounts to nothing but more threaty letter-writing campaigns to various SOS and to Congress…because that has worked out sooo well for them the last bazillion times they’ve tried it… *rolls eyes*

    Oh yeah, and they are still ranting on about stupid irrelevant SSN nonsense again too… *yawn* …along with their usual Keyboard Commando cries of frogmarching on Washington…

    gorefan: Kansas objection is being withdrawn by Montgomery.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/14/kansas-birther-case-obama-joe-montgomery_n_1884936.html?utm_hp_ref=elections-2012

  56. avatar
    donna September 14, 2012 at 4:48 pm #

    IL – Jackson v Obama – Part II
    Pamela Barnett announces

    Challenge made to Obama’s eligibility in Illinois after they accepted his forged birth certificate as proof that Obama is a NATURAL Born Citizen to get ballot access there in the primaries. This case is one of only two cases that the the forged birth certificate was entered into court by the Obama defense. Michael Jackson and two other Illinois registered voters made the challenge that has a hearing in Chicago and in Springfield (teleconference) Monday, Sept. 17 at 10:30. Supporters can go to either location for the hearing.

    Jackson crashed and burned at the February 2 hearing before the Illinois BoE. The transcript is here.

    See also the Motion to Dismiss filed previously
    Citing Minor… and the Cold Case Posse ‘report’ Hilarious…

    http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2012/09/14/il-jackson-v-obama-part-ii/

  57. avatar
    Scientist September 14, 2012 at 4:48 pm #

    G: Montgomery told The Huffington Post Friday afternoon that public reaction to the complaint led him to decide against continuing. He declined to say exactly what was said in the calls and emails he received, but indicated that people who knew him both personally and professionally were also contacted about the complaint.

    He is the spokesperson for the Kansas State University School of Veterinary Medicine. I would call what he did a very, very bad career move….

  58. avatar
    Horus September 14, 2012 at 4:52 pm #

    john:
    Well, I guess that’s tough for Obama Doc.He doesn’t get on the ballot.At least, that’s how the Kansas board should see it.Either Obama’s produces his original long form BC or the microfilm or Obama doesn’t get on the ballot.It’s really that simple.

    You’re so stupid!
    He will be on the ballot and there is nothing you or anyone can do to stop it.

  59. avatar
    G September 14, 2012 at 5:10 pm #

    While I can empathize with your position on this, I don’t see that as really necessary at this point at all. The Birthers have already generated enough case-law against their own cause in all these previous ballot and court challenges. So at this point, wanting Kansas to further weigh in on such an extensively settled matter (in realistic and serious terms) is akin to wanting them to weigh in on the fact that “water is wet”. No serious people actually question this issue.

    So, better to nip it in the bud and let it die a quick death, then whatever silly season “hay” would be wasted on the topic at all. The Birthers are hopeless rejects anyways – a ruling by the Board in favor of Obama on the ballot wouldn’t change any of these hard-core Birther minds anyways. We’ve seen that they are impervious to reality, so the extra taxpayer time spent on this nonsense issue would just be wasted and not make any difference. You may emotionally wish to further rub the Birther’s nose in their own failures, but realistically, that happens to them constantly every day, regardless.

    More significantly and reassuringly, I see this sudden dropping of the issue as a welcome sign – that even the GOP in deep-red Kansas realized that Birtherism is a failed smear and so stupid and politically poisonous, that it is akin to wearing a Scarlett Letter.

    gorefan: I was sorry to see him withdraw for the reasons stated. I would much prefer that the Board had to rule the President eligible.

    Careful here not to leap to assumptions, based on his mere characterizations of this, on what actually happened with any of these contacts.

    In politics (especially nearing a major election), when someone makes a crazy statement or stakes a controversial position, it is common for questions to be posed to their associates and surrogates, to see if they support or agree with that position.

    Also, when a political operative does something viewed as “stupid” or which has sufficient potential to cause “blowback” to their party, it often results in a lot of behind-the-scenes criticism conversations and pressure from their own internal structure to get them to walk-back or drop the issue in the first place.

    That simply could be the main extent of blowback & pressure that these contacted associates experienced or even conveyed to him.

    There is no clear evidence that they were in any way “threatened” or hassled in an inappropriate or out-of-bounds manner at all. So while I totally understand your gut-reaction to what would be “unseemly”, I have no reason to buy into that characterization matching up to what you are concluding, as opposed to the typical “hot seat” pressure that dumb political maneuvers always bring down upon folks and their political associates.

    gorefan:
    Plus I agree with him that contacting people associated with him but who may or may not agree with him was uncalled for. I know birthers have done that in the past to people at Fogbow and other sites, but I find it unseemly.

  60. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG September 14, 2012 at 5:50 pm #

    Once again, common sense wins the day!
    On a related note, I’m gonna be busy putting labels on all of these bottles full of birther tears. This batch is particularly potent! You can actually taste the rage and despair. I bet these will go great with some buffalo wings, and I don’t even like wings!

  61. avatar
    gorefan September 14, 2012 at 6:04 pm #

    G: There is no clear evidence that they were in any way “threatened” or hassled in an inappropriate or out-of-bounds manner at all.

    i agree that there is little evidence tha t he was threatened, I still think contacting his employer is not appropriate.

    Here is another article:

    http://www.themercury.com/News/article.aspx?articleId=76a0973a91374c64952f64353eef8275

    “On Twitter, the reaction has been mostly negative. Many of the tweets were directed to K-State president Kirk Schulz.”

  62. avatar
    BillTheCat September 14, 2012 at 6:19 pm #

    john: Well, I guess that’s tough for Obama Doc. He doesn’t get on the ballot. At least, that’s how the Kansas board should see it. Either Obama’s produces his original long form BC or the microfilm or Obama doesn’t get on the ballot. It’s really that simple.

    Any more gems of wisdom considering yet another birther fail today John?

    Too bad, so sad. *tinyviolin*

  63. avatar
    Xyxox September 14, 2012 at 6:20 pm #

    Sometimes I get the feeling that john isn’t really a birther, he just plays a birther on the internet.

  64. avatar
    Scientist September 14, 2012 at 6:27 pm #

    gorefan: i agree that there is little evidence tha t he was threatened, I still think contacting his employer is not appropriate.Here is another article:http://www.themercury.com/News/article.aspx?articleId=76a0973a91374c64952f64353eef8275“On Twitter, the reaction has been mostly negative. Many of the tweets were directed to K-State president Kirk Schulz.”

    If your job is spokesperson, you have to be discrete in your life off the job. It may not be totally fair, but if you get paid to represent an institution, that should be understood. The institution has an expectation that you will not deliberately seek out controversy; if you feel you must do so, then you might need to consider another line of work. That’s simple reality.

  65. avatar
    Paper September 14, 2012 at 6:47 pm #

    What perfect timing! This mishegas, apropos foreigner’s comment, makes exactly my point about why most state officials, to take one group of professionals, don’t waste their time on requesting verifications and the like…bad career move.

    See how marginal birthers are, foreigner?

    Scientist: He is the spokesperson for the Kansas State University School of Veterinary Medicine.I would call what he did a very, very bad career move….

  66. avatar
    misha September 14, 2012 at 6:48 pm #

    BillTheCat: Too bad, so sad. *tinyviolin*

    Sad trombone is better: http://www.sadtrombone.com

    Xyxox: Sometimes I get the feeling that john isn’t really a birther, he just plays a birther on the internet.

    This has to be performance art.

  67. avatar
    misha September 14, 2012 at 6:51 pm #

    Scientist: you have to be discrete

    “discreet”

  68. avatar
    G September 14, 2012 at 6:56 pm #

    Agreed.

    Also, in response to Gorefan, it should be noted that his “employer” happens to be a University. So, this is quite a different situation than having people hassle some typical private-sector employer.

    There is a long history of leadership at Universities being called upon to comment on what members of their staff or faculty have said.

    So again, I fail to see anything atypical or inappropriate so far in how the blowback responses were generally handled here.

    Scientist: If your job is spokesperson, you have to be discrete in your life off the job. It may not be totally fair, but if you get paid to represent an institution, that should be understood. The institution has an expectation that you will not deliberately seek out controversy; if you feel you must do so, then you might need to consider another line of work. That’s simple reality.

  69. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG September 14, 2012 at 7:47 pm #

    Being a child of the 80s, I prefer this sound. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-3XbeRzISc

  70. avatar
    Scientist September 14, 2012 at 8:22 pm #

    misha: “discreet”

    Indeed, misha. You have pointed out my error in concreet form.

  71. avatar
    JD Reed September 14, 2012 at 9:17 pm #

    john: Well, I guess that’s tough for Obama Doc. He doesn’t get on the ballot. At least, that’s how the Kansas board should see it. Either Obama’s produces his original long form BC or the microfilm or Obama doesn’t get on the ballot. It’s really that simple.

    John — dreaming the impossible dream, again. You must have Don Quixote memorized.

  72. avatar
    SluggoJD September 14, 2012 at 11:02 pm #

    Xyxox:
    Sometimes I get the feeling that john isn’t really a birther, he just plays a birther on the internet.

    I’ve said on many occasions that someone is pretending to be the perfect birther.

  73. avatar
    JPotter September 14, 2012 at 11:05 pm #

    What the hack is the matter with Kansas?

  74. avatar
    Keith September 15, 2012 at 2:03 am #

    JPotter:
    What the hack is the matter with Kansas?

    Dorothy has gone back to Oz and Toto only gets together for nostalgic benefit gigs.

  75. avatar
    Andy September 15, 2012 at 11:34 am #

    JPotter:
    What the hack is the matter with Kansas?

    Nothing. If you were to read the comments on cjonline.com, for example, you will find hundreds of people pointing out this man’s idiocy.

    It’s not Kansas that’s the problem. It’s idiots that are the problem. (I’ll have to admit there are quite a high number of silly people in Kansas, but it isn’t the rest of us Kansans’ fault!)

  76. avatar
    G September 15, 2012 at 12:16 pm #

    Yep. Sadly, the idiots are spread all over. But so are the reasonable folks. Some areas of the country just happen to have some more prominent and entrenched congregations of the crazy, that’s all.

    Andy: ’s not Kansas that’s the problem. It’s idiots that are the problem. (I’ll have to admit there are quite a high number of silly people in Kansas, but it isn’t the rest of us Kansans’ fault!)

  77. avatar
    JPotter September 15, 2012 at 9:58 pm #

    Andy: Nothing.If you were to read the comments on cjonline.com, for example, you will find hundreds of people pointing out this man’s idiocy.

    It’s not Kansas that’s the problem.It’s idiots that are the problem.(I’ll have to admit there are quite a high number of silly people in Kansas, but it isn’t the rest of us Kansans’ fault!)

    Hey, I lived there for a year, and I haven’t gone far. Downhill, actually. Considering Okieland’s records, how does this place stay under the radar while Kansas gets the bad rap?

    Lost in the glare of Texas?

  78. avatar
    Dave B. September 16, 2012 at 6:00 pm #

    Hey Doc, I just found this a little while ago:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjFn3UEaS_M
    It’s Joe Montgomery reading his statement to the State Objection Board. It’s pretty boring unless, and you really need to do this, you turn on the closed captioning.

  79. avatar
    G September 16, 2012 at 9:12 pm #

    Well, Okie just got some negative attention – so far, they are the ONLY state that has blocked ballot access for Gary Johnson.

    JPotter: Considering Okieland’s records, how does this place stay under the radar while Kansas gets the bad rap?

  80. avatar
    LW September 17, 2012 at 1:17 am #

    Dave B.:
    Hey Doc, I just found this a little while ago:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjFn3UEaS_M
    It’s Joe Montgomery reading his statement to the State Objection Board.It’s pretty boring unless, and you really need to do this, you turn on the closed captioning.

    3:22: “Mr. Lamb Chop footnote the citation USB Margaret.”

    6:22: “Ovens mentally party infected apart often fishing that’s a hard copy certified Redenbacher impatient.”

    I think these are things we can all agree on.

  81. avatar
    Dave B. September 17, 2012 at 2:05 am #

    LW:

    I think these are things we can all agree on.

    It’s the most sense a birther’s made yet. It’s a beautiful thing.
    Squeeky’s made a transcript.
    http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2012/09/16/the-illegibility-pro-claymation-or-joe-the-birther-pontificates/

  82. avatar
    AnotherBird September 17, 2012 at 8:09 am #

    “Kansas secedes from the rational universe” sums it up perfectly. What they have created is a test that is impossible. Only the State of Hawaii can verify that Obama was born in Hawaii. They might have been looking over job applications and decide why not. That is the point that they decided it was a silly idea.