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Taitz will lose the Grinols case

Orly Taitz is going to lose the Grinols v. Electoral College case. Is this because “the fix is in?” No, it is because “the broken is in.” Taitz’ case is obviously and fatally flawed.

One might be tempted to rail against the case, saying that it is doomed because of the monumental incompetence of Orly Taitz as a lawyer. She waited over a month after the election to file the case, making significant parts of it moot before the court could hear it. She bungled service of the complaint. She failed to follow court rules in multiple instances. She basically didn’t do anything right (here are the details); however, most of that could in theory be fixed.

What cannot be fixed with Grinols, as has been the story with most of the birther eligibility lawsuits, is that Grinols, Noonan, Judd and the other guy lack standing. The first question the court will ask is not whether Barack Obama is eligible to be president, but whether Grinols is eligible to bring suit, and he is not. One can go all the way back to Berg v. Obama in 2008 for precedent. A person not directly and individually harmed has no case. The voter in general doesn’t have a right to litigate in federal court anything that he doesn’t like unless directly and individually involved. The Plaintiffs in Grinols were presidential candidates who weren’t on the ballot and presidential electors who didn’t get elected. This issue of standing is not a fiat of the court, but is based in Article III of the US Constitution that defines the jurisdiction of the federal courts.

The second issue with Grinols is that the Constitution gives absolute independence to the Congress in the execution of its legislative function. Taitz is asking the Court to enjoin the Congress from certifying the election, something the Constitution says they cannot do.

This is why Taitz’ subpoenas to half a dozen federal agencies are nonsense; they go to the complaint Taitz presented, and not the the more fundamental problem that the Court cannot hear the case. If the Court cannot hear the case, it cannot hear the evidence.

Birthers have lost 190 straight cases in court. Someone would have to be crazy to think Grinols will come out any different.

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48 Responses to Taitz will lose the Grinols case

  1. avatar
    realist December 27, 2012 at 9:16 am #

    “Someone would have to be crazy to thing Grinols will come out any different.”

    Enter birthers.

  2. avatar
    john December 27, 2012 at 9:22 am #

    I do agree that court action at this point is futile. The case will fail. However, Orly does have a hearing on the 3rd of January. It would be Orly’s hope that someone particularily Congressmen and Senators may take an interest in it and decide to file a WRITTEN OBJECTION with the Joint Session Congress. Once filed, the 2012 Election process is HALTED. Congress is LEGALLY REQUIRED to DEBATE the issue. (basically have a 2 hour hearing on the issue) With the Senate, while I cannot ganurantee a positive result at least we can put Obama through a meat grinder and people can learn the truth about who Obama really is.

  3. avatar
    richCares December 27, 2012 at 11:25 am #

    john: “the truth about who Obama really is.”
    the truth is out, Time Magazine has named Obama Person of the ear and does a good story on why, sorry john. oh, plus Obama’s ratings higher then ever.

  4. avatar
    Scientist December 27, 2012 at 11:56 am #

    realist: people can learn the truth about who Obama really is.

    Why wait? Please enlighten us. We can handle the truth. Some of us might like him even more when we find out all the juicy stuff. Just look how Clinton’s approval numbers actually went up after the impeachment.

  5. avatar
    ROBB December 27, 2012 at 12:08 pm #

    John, can you provide evidence of that claim, that they must, and that the debate is any more than a singular vote of “Obama be national born citizen for the win”

  6. avatar
    Outcome December 27, 2012 at 12:20 pm #

    When a court or the Congress allow the forged documents to be reviewed by qualified forensic professionals, can anyone doubt that the White House “stink” will be jailed? Add to the latter; fast and furious, Bengazi, fraudulent personal names, and all the other ‘bullshit’ generated by the plague in the White House and the outcome of a trial is ‘life in jail’ . Wooooeeee to the jerk who would pardon the most ‘evil’ bastard in the White House who has violated every social norm existing in America…. and the world for that matter.

  7. avatar
    Mary Brown December 27, 2012 at 12:43 pm #

    John,
    Most people are aware of the birther movement. Most are aware that the State of Hawaii produced a birth certificate that came from their records and that the State of Hawaii authenticated. Many of us are aware that the first Governor to state that the President was born in Hawaii was a Republican who campaigned with John McCain. You can claim, dream or become a prisoner of fantasy. You probably will. If members of Congress take this step the nation will be witness to this nonsense. People will not be amused that during arguments about their future you stoop to this. But then people who live in denial rarely go quietly. In the end, he won the election. One of my children, who has a strong libertarian bent, voted for the President because he wanted to make a statement to you and to what he thought of your arguments. That speaks volumes to me about this country and its judgements. They are better than most of us suppose.

  8. avatar
    bgansel9 December 27, 2012 at 12:50 pm #

    I hear she’s spending a gazillion dollars on this doomed case though. Ahahahahahaha!

  9. avatar
    Dave December 27, 2012 at 1:08 pm #

    I do think that getting a formal objection in Congress to the election results is more sensible that anything else the birthers have done. And, of course, it only takes one Senator and one Rep. Still, I think it extremely unlikely that even one Senator would sign this objection. And even if one did, I don’t think it would turn out the way John envisions. Given how hard pressed the birthers are to find anyone in Congress to sign the objection, it’s going to be just as hard to find anyone to vote for it.

    john:
    It would be Orly’s hope that someone particularily Congressmen and Senators may take an interest in it and decide to file a WRITTEN OBJECTION with the Joint Session Congress.

  10. avatar
    MN-Skeptic December 27, 2012 at 1:15 pm #

    Outcome: Wooooeeee to the jerk who would pardon the most ‘evil’ bastard in the White House who has violated every social norm existing in America…. and the world for that matter.

    Let’s see… Obama’s a fine Christian man who is still married to his first wife and appears to love and spend time with his two daughters. I know that the social norm is to divorce your first wife and try, try again (ala Gingrich and Limbaugh), so Obama is bucking the trend re that, but I’ve given him the benefit of the doubt and voted for him for the second time. I really don’t think staying with your first wife is grounds for impeachment, but birthers do come up with some odd ideas.

  11. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 27, 2012 at 1:21 pm #

    Orly’s web site is down.

  12. avatar
    Daniel December 27, 2012 at 1:25 pm #

    Outcome:
    When a court or the Congress allow the forged documents to be reviewed by qualified forensic professionals, can anyone doubt that the White House “stink” will be jailed?Add to the latter; fast and furious, Bengazi, fraudulent personal names, and all the other ‘b(redacted DVK)t’ generated by the plague in the White House and the outcome of a trial is ‘life in jail’ .Wooooeeee to the jerk who would pardon the most ‘evil’ bastard in the White House who has violated every social norm existing in America…. and the world for that matter.

    Any… day… now… (rocking back and forth while sitting on his hocks in a dark corner)

  13. avatar
    Daniel December 27, 2012 at 1:27 pm #

    john:
    I do agree that court action at this point is futile.The case will fail.However, Orly does have a hearing on the 3rd of January.It would be Orly’s hope that someone particularily Congressmen and Senators may take an interest in it and decide to file a WRITTEN OBJECTION with the Joint Session Congress. Once filed, the 2012 Election process is HALTED. Congress is LEGALLY REQUIRED to DEBATE the issue. (basically have a 2 hour hearing on the issue)With the Senate, while I cannot ganurantee a positive result at least we can put Obama through a meat grinder and people can learn the truth about who Obama really is.

    Actually it’s “not more than” 2 hours. In reality it would only take as much time as “move to quash this stupidity”, and “a chorus of “seconded”.

    But please do come back the day after and let us know how that worked out for you, OK John?

  14. avatar
    bgansel9 December 27, 2012 at 1:36 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Orly’s web site is down.

    I know it would drive you absolutely insane, but I personally hope it stays that way. :P

  15. avatar
    bgansel9 December 27, 2012 at 1:37 pm #

    MN-Skeptic: I really don’t think staying with your first wife is grounds for impeachment

    You own the internets today.

  16. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 27, 2012 at 1:50 pm #

    No qualified forensic document examiner has given a formal opinion on the White House birth certificate PDF file. However, 4 qualified experts have looked at it and given comments, and none of them found indications that the document was a fake. Those four are:

    Ivan Zatkovich
    Neal Krawetz
    John Berryhill
    Ricardo L. de Queiroz

    There is a 5th that spoke to a Phoenix TV station, but I’m having trouble finding it right now.

    Outcome: When a court or the Congress allow the forged documents to be reviewed by qualified forensic professionals, can anyone doubt that the White House “stink” will be jailed

  17. avatar
    Jim December 27, 2012 at 2:02 pm #

    There is a 5th that spoke to a Phoenix TV station, but I’m having trouble finding it right now.

    This what you were looking for?

    http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/local-document-examiner-questions-review-of-online-birth-certificate

  18. avatar
    john December 27, 2012 at 2:02 pm #

    All hardened Obots I would think.

  19. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 27, 2012 at 2:27 pm #

    That’s not the one I had in mind. Ramsey really has no expertise in electronic documents.

    Jim: This what you were looking for?

  20. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 27, 2012 at 2:30 pm #

    Not really. Zatkovich and Berryhill were both hired by WorldNetDaily. Queiroz is an academic from Brazil who holds patents on MRC compression, the technique used on the White House document. He’s not involved in US Politics. Krawetz has debunked birthers before, but I don’t know his politics.

    john: All hardened Obots I would think.

  21. avatar
    Dave B. December 27, 2012 at 2:36 pm #

    john:
    All hardened Obots I would think.

    As opposed to, say for instance, Mara Zebest?

  22. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny December 27, 2012 at 2:49 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Orly’s web site is down.

    Someone in Kazakhstan is installing new spyware.

  23. avatar
    Dave December 27, 2012 at 2:57 pm #

    Doesn’t surprise me one bit. In fact, this is exactly the problem. You don’t like what they say, so you decide they’re obots, without having or even looking for any information about their political views.

    john:
    All hardened Obots I would think.

  24. avatar
    SluggoJD December 27, 2012 at 3:30 pm #

    Outcome:
    When a court or the Congress allow the forged documents to be reviewed by qualified forensic professionals, can anyone doubt that the White House “stink” will be jailed?Add to the latter; fast and furious, Bengazi, fraudulent personal names, and all the other ‘bullshit’ generated by the plague in the White House and the outcome of a trial is ‘life in jail’ .Wooooeeee to the jerk who would pardon the most ‘evil’ bastard in the White House who has violated every social norm existing in America…. and the world for that matter.

    And yet, he’s the President, and you’re an anonymous schmuck who makes garbage up and hates people because of their birthright.

    I wonder who the pathetic one really is….

  25. avatar
    SluggoJD December 27, 2012 at 3:33 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Orly’s web site is down.

    She needs more $$$

  26. avatar
    CarlOrcas December 27, 2012 at 3:51 pm #

    SluggoJD: She needs more $$$

    Send the $$$ to me and I’ll make sure they get to her when her website is back up. Honest. I promise.

  27. avatar
    bgansel9 December 27, 2012 at 4:10 pm #

    john: All hardened Obots I would think.

    And you would be wrong. Aren’t you tired of being wrong all the time? isn’t it getting frustrating? Why do you do this to yourself John? Come on over to reality, it’s much nicer over here.

  28. avatar
    Yoda December 27, 2012 at 4:21 pm #

    bgansel9: And you would be wrong. Aren’t you tired of being wrong all the time? isn’t it getting frustrating? Why do you do this to yourself John? Come on over to reality, it’s much nicer over here.

    It is much more intelligent too.

  29. avatar
    Daniel December 27, 2012 at 4:35 pm #

    john:
    All hardened Obots I would think.

    Yes we understand that you really need to think that in order to avoid the issue of just how wrong you are in the face of actual, objective evidence.

  30. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG December 27, 2012 at 4:51 pm #

    john:
    I do agree that court action at this point is futile.The case will fail.However, Orly does have a hearing on the 3rd of January.It would be Orly’s hope that someone particularily Congressmen and Senators may take an interest in it and decide to file a WRITTEN OBJECTION with the Joint Session Congress. Once filed, the 2012 Election process is HALTED. Congress is LEGALLY REQUIRED to DEBATE the issue. (basically have a 2 hour hearing on the issue)With the Senate, while I cannot ganurantee a positive result at least we can put Obama through a meat grinder and people can learn the truth about who Obama really is.

    So John, when NONE of that happens, what will your plans be then? Will you finally call it quits, admit you’re a racist prick, drop all pretenses of patriotism, and come clean?

  31. avatar
    Rickey December 27, 2012 at 6:06 pm #

    john:
    All hardened Obots I would think.

    The problem is that thinking is not your strong suit.

  32. avatar
    Thomas Brown December 27, 2012 at 6:08 pm #

    Daniel: Yes we understand that you really need to think that in order to avoid the issue of just how wrong you are in the face of actual, objective evidence.

    I honestly pity ‘john’ when he discovers that the Obama he thinks he knows doesn’t actually exist, not even slightly. When it finally seeps into his granitic cranium that the straw man that right wing propagandists have sold him is precisely: The Boogie Man, used to frighten infants since the dawn of man.

    Watch out! He’s gonna getcha! Booga-booga!

    The utra-partisan hypnotists known as the right-wing media have created a whole sizable demographic that are essentially little children: knowing nothing about the world, and so easily terrified. ‘john’ is only one of these, albeit among the most irritating 1% to be sure.

    And if I could have one wish come true, it would be that he lives to understand this, learn the actual facts, and try to learn to live with the shame of thinking the most horrific things about a good and moral man, a capable leader… loyal to, and a credit to, America.

  33. avatar
    ObiWanCannoli December 27, 2012 at 7:17 pm #

    I am confused. If the federal court or any court for that matter lacks authority to enjoin congress from counting the EVs and certifying the election, why do they even allow orley (lowercase “o” is intentional) to file the complaint and send subpoenas? Why hold hearings? Why not just dismiss the frivolous complain for the lack of authority as soon as she filed it?

  34. avatar
    bgansel9 December 27, 2012 at 7:21 pm #

    ObiWanCannoli: Why not just dismiss the frivolous complain for the lack of authority as soon as she filed it?

    Perhaps trying to railroad a presidency earns a flogging? Hopefully of the heavily monetary kind.

  35. avatar
    Paper December 27, 2012 at 7:44 pm #

    Well, Dr. C’s notes about these individuals aside, keep in mind most people are Obots, as evidenced by the President handily winning the election.

    john:
    All hardened Obots I would think.

  36. avatar
    Keith December 27, 2012 at 8:10 pm #

    Thomas Brown: The utra-partisan hypnotists known as the right-wing media have created a whole sizable demographic that are essentially little children: knowing nothing about the world, and so easily terrified.

    That is the best summary I’ve seen. Concise and accurate. And unfortunately chilling.

    Well done.

  37. avatar
    Keith December 27, 2012 at 8:23 pm #

    Outcome: Wooooeeee to the jerk who would pardon the most ‘evil’ bastard in the White House who has violated every social norm existing in America…. and the world for that matter.

    How did Gerald Ford get into this discussion?

  38. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 27, 2012 at 9:15 pm #

    It’s a good question. Judge Carter, also a federal judge in California, dismissed Judd v. Obama “sua sponte” for lack of jurisdiction. In this situation the flaw in process was so fundamental as to make the case not really even filed. No legal analysis of the content of the case was necessary. Perhaps Judge England doesn’t have the time to do a full analysis of Orly’s case. I get impression that courts don’t spontaneously dismiss cases all that often.

    ObiWanCannoli: I am confused. If the federal court or any court for that matter lacks authority to enjoin congress from counting the EVs and certifying the election, why do they even allow orley (lowercase “o” is intentional) to file the complaint and send subpoenas? Why hold hearings? Why not just dismiss the frivolous complain for the lack of authority as soon as she filed it?

  39. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 27, 2012 at 9:18 pm #

    The weird part of that is that you may be right.

    Paul Pieniezny: Someone in Kazakhstan is installing new spyware.

  40. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG December 27, 2012 at 10:17 pm #

    For some reason, I picture any given Orly courtroom appearance playing out like the Cheech and Chong classic “Trippin in Court”.

  41. avatar
    gorefan December 27, 2012 at 10:41 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: There is a 5th

    I’m not sure if Victoria Nicks falls in that category. She was promoted by WND as an expert.

    http://www.wnd.com/2011/07/320237/

    Her conclusion:

    “The changes made to the original document by OCR software and image optimization have rendered it impossible to determine whether these inconsistencies are due to manual tampering, or are simply the result of the optimization and scanning process.”

    http://www.decodedscience.com/birth-certificate-debate-caused-by-ocr-software-and-digital-optimization/1939

  42. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny December 28, 2012 at 8:38 am #

    gorefan: “The changes made to the original document by OCR software and image optimization have rendered it impossible to determine whether these inconsistencies are due to manual tampering, or are simply the result of the optimization and scanning process.”

    Not much of an expert then.

    Considering that the lady was hired by WND to prove tampering and could not find it, I would call everything she wrote bromide.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromide_%28language%29

    Of course, everything I have written about her now in this post, is also a lapalissade.

    Hélas, La Palice est mort, est mort devant Pavie ;
    Hélas, s’il n’était pas mort, il ferait encore envie

  43. avatar
    JPotter December 28, 2012 at 10:56 am #

    gorefan: I’m not sure if Victoria Nicks falls in that category. She was promoted by WND as an expert.

    Being promoted by someone else is not necessarily a stain. It would depend on the nature of the promotion and the impetus for the writer’s efforts.

    Nicks runs her own blog which touches on a lot of ‘popular’ science, and pseudoscience, and reaches, in my opinion, a lot of wishy-washy, noncommittal conclusions. She is a self-appointed expert (it takes one to know one, heh), engaged in self-promotion.

    On this topic she demonstrated no particular insight into the PDF file format or the hardware and software that creates them. Her ‘analysis’ was similar to that of the birfexperts … open the file in randomly selected software, play with the parts found, zoom in ridiculously, try to find ‘oddities’. She is not an expert I would trust on the topic of PDF Madness. Moreover, she was more examining the faux concerns raised by nutters rather than starting from scratch and evaluating the file … or, her lack of specific expertise lead her to the same dead ends.

  44. avatar
    Dave B. December 28, 2012 at 12:45 pm #

    Outcome: Wooooeeee to the jerk

    You know, for a while there I couldn’t figure out why Output there was saying “woooo-eeeee!” Not too long, but for a little while.

  45. avatar
    LW December 28, 2012 at 8:39 pm #

    Oh, I get it. I figured it was some kind of “Git ‘R Done” exclamation until you brought it up.

  46. avatar
    donna December 30, 2012 at 11:31 am #

    from the ditz:

    Request for video recording and broadcasting of January 3, 2013 hearing before Judge England was forwarded to the judge

    i guess she wants to sell another video of a doomed lawsuit

  47. avatar
    bgansel9 December 30, 2012 at 11:38 am #

    donna: i guess she wants to sell another video of a doomed lawsuit

    Grifting off of her failures is the most natural talent she possesses.

  48. avatar
    donna December 30, 2012 at 11:45 am #

    bgansel9:

    seriously, why would anyone sell hearing videos of cases you LOST?

    from her website: DVD of the historic trial in GA and DVD of a historic testimony in NH, where evidence was provided showing Obama using a forged birth certificate and a stolen social security number.

    my fave quote from NH was from the state’s Republican House Majority Leader D.J. Bettencourt:

    “Please, Dr. Taitz, go away and leave New Hampshire alone.”