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Zullo: secret evidence will convince skeptics

The Maricopa County Cold Case posse investigation into how gullible the birthers are, continues with an interview given by auto salesman and erstwhile volunteer detective Mike Zullo to Carl Gallups on his radio show.

ObamaReleaseYourRecords quotes Zullo as saying:

The evidence we have acquired, new found evidence that we have never made public at any point in time, and we are not going to make public until we have the right opportunity, will convince even the greatest skeptic that this document is 100% a forgery.

MikeZullowBC:roll:  Mike Zullo hardly has any credibility to make this claim, himself being fooled on multiple occasions by fake documents created by birther hoaxers and issuing reports that contradict his previous reports and changing theories more often than he changes underwear. He lacks even the minimal qualifications to evaluate any evidence, serving as little more than the downspout of the birther misinformation drain pipe. Even if the credulous Zullo actually believes that yet another self-credentialed birther expert has put a nail in coffin of the long-form-birth certificate, that’s no reason to think that it will convince normal people.

Zullo said:

We are so convinced… let me go out on limb… I am going to put my reputation out there that we have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt–the higher standard–beyond  a reasonable doubt that this document is an utter forgery.

I guess that is an admission that all of the evidence presented before was doubtful.

The right time may come, and Zullo may present something, but Obama’s birth in Hawaii is already confirmed beyond a reasonable doubt, and so we may conclude in advance that whatever Zullo comes up with, it will be wrong like all the rest. Until he comes forward with his evidence of a crime, he is, in birther terms, guilty of “misprision of felony.”

Listen to the interview:

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277 Responses to Zullo: secret evidence will convince skeptics

  1. avatar
    john January 28, 2013 at 10:54 am #

    http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2013/01/team-arpaio-newly-found-obama-evidence.html
    Video Update: Sheriff Joe Arpaio’s Lead Investigator Mike Zullo;
    Newly Found Evidence Will Convince Greatest Skeptic
    Document Is 100% Forgery; The Evidence Is Beyond A Reasonable Doubt

  2. avatar
    donna January 28, 2013 at 11:24 am #

    john:

    let me know when zullo’s experts have American Board of Forensic Document Examiners and/or The American Society of Questioned Document Examiners listed on their CVs

    let me know when the other side STIPULATES as to the court qualified forensic credentials of zullo’s (or birther) “experts”

    let me know when the FIRST court acknowledges their credibility

  3. avatar
    richCares January 28, 2013 at 11:43 am #

    Zullo’s proof comes with a 90 day warranty plus 3 free car washes makes john so happy.

  4. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 28, 2013 at 11:48 am #

    I started something new today. I published this article under the Obot1 name. Obot1 is my Mr. Hyde character, and was selected after I added the bit about “changing underwear.”

  5. avatar
    realist January 28, 2013 at 11:54 am #

    “this document is 100% a forgery.”

    I love it that those such as Zullo and other birthers keep pounding away at the notion that this completely irrelevant pdf is a forgery. The “analyses” by their own so-called “experts” proves, not beyond a reasonable doubt, but beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it’s not a forgery.

    They seem incapable of understanding that even if… even IF it were proven that the pdf were made of whole cloth it does not make Obama ineligible.

    Zullo (and all birthers) are utterly incapable of grasping either concept.

    Zullo is nothing more than a snake oil salesman… and not even a very good one.

  6. avatar
    The Magic M January 28, 2013 at 11:59 am #

    So it’s time for another round of birthers going “Obots are in panic what it could be”?

    Well, I, for one, welcome our new Alien Overlords birther OMG moment.

    Given that they haven’t come up with anything really new in several months now (the last actual claim I remember being the “reversed 2008 stamp”), it’s hard to fathom that would change in any way.
    So similar to speculation about The Donald’s “October Surprise” announcement, this will with 99.9999% probability resolve to hot air – either another rehashed claim or something off the wall like the stuff the Freepers use to peddle, as in “because X did not say Y, it proves Z”.

  7. avatar
    The Magic M January 28, 2013 at 12:02 pm #

    realist: They seem incapable of understanding that even if… even IF it were proven that the pdf were made of whole cloth it does not make Obama ineligible.

    And even more that if such a thing were proven today, it would not even be useful for propaganda purposes (which, ultimately, has always been the purpose of the Arpaio show) as there are no elections to win in the next year. Unless of course they hope this will finally put one lone wolf over the edge…

  8. avatar
    aesthetocyst January 28, 2013 at 12:05 pm #

    realist: “this document is 100% a forgery.”

    I, too, love that claim. A 100% forgery? Think about what that would mean. A complete fabrication. So …. it was created pixel by pixel, from scratch, and none of the information represented is truthful? So, Obama ain’t Obama, Dunham ain’t his momma, Obama Sr. ain’t his daddy, he wasn’t born in Hawaii, 8/4/61 isn’t his birthday, etc., etc. Quite a conspiracy!

    This is not how forgers work; this is nonsensical. There has to be some truth to anchor a story on, something to base a reason to buy the forgery on.

    They must mean they are 100% sure it is a forgery to some degree. not that it is a “100% forgery”.

  9. avatar
    sfjeff January 28, 2013 at 12:13 pm #

    “and we are not going to make public until we have the right opportunity”

    This is what just astounds me about Birthers- they accept this hook and sinker.

    What would be the ‘right opportunity’ if this is- as Birther keep claiming- a ‘criminal investigation?

    If Zullo thinks a crime occurred, and has proof that establishes it with 100% certainty- he should be conveying that to the DA or the FBI or Congress- and should not be telling the world about it.

    But Zullo appears to be saying is that he is withholding ‘evidence’ from the DA and FBI and Congress- for some undetermined agenda of his or Arpaio’s.

    Unless he claims that this is not evidence of any criminal activity- in which case the question is- why is this para-legal posse interested at all?

    Why do Conspiracy theorists- and Birthers give any credence to someone saying that they know ‘stuff’ but just aren’t ready to share it?

    9 year olds are less gullible.

  10. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 28, 2013 at 12:15 pm #

    Mike Zullo, and Arpaio appear to be running a con game.

    On one hand, they claim that our Republic is in crisis due to Obama residing at the White House, yet they hold “critical evidence” from the public?

    It appears that Zullo is making a living doing this, and would like for it to continue as long as possible.

    –Dionisio Lopez

  11. avatar
    john January 28, 2013 at 12:19 pm #

    “The right time may come, and Zullo may present something, but Obama’s birth in Hawaii is already confirmed beyond a reasonable doubt….”

    Not Yet! Hawaii has yet to allow access to the original. As far the verifications go, I believe Onaka is lying and even if he isn’t lying, his verifications are legally vague as to confirm that Obama’s BC is legally nonvalid.

    In any event, Had it been known that Obama was ineligible after he was elected in 2008, it would not be unreasonable to believe that the State of Hawaii would go along with official narrative that Obama was born in Hawaii….

    If such ramification of ineligibility were to occur after the election, There would chaos and riots in the street.

  12. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 28, 2013 at 12:22 pm #

    So will we have to wait until 2017 to see the evidence?

    john: If such ramification of ineligibility were to occur after the election, There would chaos and riots in the street.

  13. avatar
    john January 28, 2013 at 12:22 pm #

    It should also be pointed out that Hawaii (Onaka) HAS NO CHOICE but to confirm veracity of the White House Long Form Birth Certificate. Why???? Because the Long Form BC has the Stamp and the Seal of Hawaii. If Hawaii were to deny veracity, Hawaii would be in big big big trouble. The verifications therefore are SELF-SERVING and are of little value.

  14. avatar
    Arthur January 28, 2013 at 12:26 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: Mike Zullo, and Arpaio appear to be running a con game.

    Yes, that seems to be the case.

  15. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 28, 2013 at 12:26 pm #

    john:
    If such ramification of ineligibility were to occur after the election, There would chaos and riots in the street.

    I agree in that if Obama were removed from office, for any reason, there would be widespread civil unrest.

  16. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 28, 2013 at 12:31 pm #

    Would “any reason” include losing the 2012 election?

    Dionisio Lopez: I agree in that if Obama were removed from office, for any reason, there would be widespread civil unrest.

  17. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 28, 2013 at 12:41 pm #

    I believe this is what the birthers call “misprision of felony.”

    sfjeff: If Zullo thinks a crime occurred, and has proof that establishes it with 100% certainty- he should be conveying that to the DA or the FBI or Congress- and should not be telling the world about it.

  18. avatar
    justlw January 28, 2013 at 12:50 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: I agree in that if Obama were removed from office, for any reason, there would be widespread civil unrest.

    Sort of like this?

  19. avatar
    realist January 28, 2013 at 12:51 pm #

    john:
    It should also be pointed out that Hawaii (Onaka) HAS NO CHOICE but to confirm veracity of the White House Long Form Birth Certificate. Why???? Because the Long Form BC has the Stamp and the Seal of Hawaii. If Hawaii were to deny veracity, Hawaii would be in big big big trouble.The verifications therefore are SELF-SERVING and are of little value.

    LOL….

    Where do you nutbags come up with this sort of twisted logic. Unbelievable.
    How do you walk and breathe at the same time?

  20. avatar
    Scientist January 28, 2013 at 12:56 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: I agree in that if Obama were removed from office, for any reason, there would be widespread civil unrest.

    That settles it, then. He must serve out his term. It would hardly be worth enduring “widespread civil unrest” just to replace him with Joe Biden.

  21. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 28, 2013 at 12:56 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Would “any reason” include losing the 2012 election?

    What is that even supposed to mean? This is 2013.

  22. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 28, 2013 at 1:00 pm #

    justlw: Sort of like this?

    In that video, I think he does have a point that a birther industry cropped up, and people are making a living on it.

    I sure the secret service is keeping a eye on him (beheading the potus?)

  23. avatar
    misha marinsky January 28, 2013 at 1:01 pm #

    The Magic M: Unless of course they hope this will finally put one lone wolf over the edge…

    Which is exactly their goal. As I’ve said repeatedly, Denialists are fascists, in the actual meaning.

  24. avatar
    misha marinsky January 28, 2013 at 1:03 pm #

    realist: How do you walk and breathe at the same time?

    Yeah, but can they walk and chew gum at the same time?

  25. avatar
    misha marinsky January 28, 2013 at 1:05 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: I agree in that if Obama were removed from office, for any reason, there would be widespread civil unrest.

    Yeah, don’t get those negroes riled up…

  26. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 28, 2013 at 1:11 pm #

    I am asking whether you believe that if Obama had lost the 2012 election, and been thereby removed from office that there would have been widespread civil unrest. You say that today (a couple of months after the election) that Obama’s removal for “any reason” would cause unrest; I wondered if you thought that was true two months ago.

    The point, in case you don’t get it, is that there are different ways a President can be removed from office. If Obama were removed by a military coup then I would agree that there would be widespread civil unrest. If, on the other hand, he were impeached on significant charges in a process that was well understood to be fair, then I do not think that there would be any unrest. You, however, seem to think that the reason and the process don’t matter, that Obama supporters will riot if they don’t get their way. I find that view offensive.

    Dionisio Lopez: What is that even supposed to mean? This is 2013.

  27. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 28, 2013 at 1:12 pm #

    misha marinsky: Yeah, don’t get those negroes riled up…

    Wow. And you guys call birthers “wackos”.

  28. avatar
    justlw January 28, 2013 at 1:16 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: think he does have a point that a birther industry cropped up, and people are making a living on it.

    There have to be better ways to make a living. One’s target audience is not exactly rolling in it, nor does most of that audience appear to be willing to go beyond perfunctory slacktivism (ask Dean Haskins or Linda Jordan).

    I think there’s more profit and respect to be found in 419 or driveway paving scams.

  29. avatar
    sfjeff January 28, 2013 at 1:20 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The point, in case you don’t get it, is that there are different ways a President can be removed from office. If Obama were removed by a military coups then I would agree that there would be widespread civil unrest. If, on the other hand, he were impeached on significant charges in a process that was well understood to be fair, then I do not think that there would be any unrest. You, however, seem to think that the reason and the process and doesn’t matter, that Obama supporters will riot if they don’t get their way.

    Thanks Doc.

    Birthers often level the accusation that anyone who opposes their nuttery is such a die hard Obama supporter that they would support Obama no matter what he did or does.

    But in reality, what I have seen is that the anti-Birthers are essentially(other than Misha:) ), are moderates who oppose attempts to thwart the Constitution and our Democratic process.

    If there was ever evidence that Obama had pulled a “Richard Nixon” I would support his impeachment. I would support the impeachment of any President who clearly broke the law with the intent to undermine our election process.

    But an impeachment that was done for political purposes- such as the one for Bill Clinton or Andrew Johnson- a successful completely political impeachment- that could seriously damage our country, and yes I could see riots happening because of it- regardless whether the President impeached was Republican or Democratic.

  30. avatar
    Northland10 January 28, 2013 at 1:21 pm #

    Even the inmates at the ORYR zoo are getting increasingly annoyed at hearing claims with no action. Some are even getting mad at the constant call for their rebellion but nobody actually does anything. I assume all the angry ones were at Orly’s protests.

    Their mature behavior remains as the moderator replaces comments from those who disagree with a stylized picture of a butt. Always classy at ORYR.

  31. avatar
    justlw January 28, 2013 at 1:27 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: Wow. And you guys call birthers “wackos”.

    Misha just chooses to forget the widespread civil unrest when Nixon resigned. Clearly, there’s precedent.

  32. avatar
    Underdog January 28, 2013 at 1:29 pm #

    Since the only version of the Birth Certificate they have seen was the PDF. All of their efforts to prove that Obama’s LFBC is a forgery, are worthless and meaningless.

  33. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 28, 2013 at 1:34 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy,

    People riot in this country when their basketball team/football team win/lose games. Based on the popularity and support of Obama, I think there would have been civil unrest had he lost the election.

    You find that offensive? That’s pretty funny. So America is that much more civilized than say Ecuador, Venezuela, Columbia, India?

    I think you need a reality check.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I am asking whether you believe that if Obama had lost the 2012 election, andbeen thereby removed from office that there would have been widespread civil unrest. You say that today (a couple of months after the election) that Obama’s removal for “any reason” would cause unrest; I wondered if you thought that was true two months ago.

    The point, in case you don’t get it, is that there are different ways a President can be removed from office. If Obama were removed by a military coup then I would agree that there would be widespread civil unrest. If, on the other hand, he were impeached on significant charges in a process that was well understood to be fair, then I do not think that there would be any unrest. You, however, seem to think that the reason and the process don’t matter, that Obama supporters will riot if they don’t get their way. I find that view offensive.

  34. avatar
    CarlOrcas January 28, 2013 at 1:36 pm #

    john: Document Is 100% Forgery; The Evidence Is Beyond A Reasonable Doubt

    So, John, why do you think Zullo et al haven’t presented this “beyond a reasonable doubt” evidence to a prosecutor yet?

    What do you really think?

  35. avatar
    Arthur January 28, 2013 at 1:36 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: My *opinion* regarding civil unrest is just as valid as yours.

    While everyone may have an opinion, a “valid opinion” is one that is supported by objective facts and logical reasoning. You don’t have a valid opinion.

  36. avatar
    Arthur January 28, 2013 at 1:39 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: People riot in this country when their basketball team/football team win/lose games. Based on the popularity and support of Obama, I think there would have been civil unrest had he lost the election.

    In the past one hundred years of presidential politics, I’d be interested to know how many times the supporters of a losing candidate rioted or caused civil unrest. And as far as sports riots go, in the United States, it’s more likely for fans of the winning team to act up.

  37. avatar
    Scientist January 28, 2013 at 1:40 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: I think there would have been civil unrest had he lost the election.

    What EVIDENCE (you know, facts) do you have to support this? The riots by Al Gore supporters when he lost an election where he won the popular vote? I remember those terrible riots. Oh, wait, there weren’t any..

    Dionisio Lopez: I think you need a reality check.

    I agree. You do.

  38. avatar
    Xyxox January 28, 2013 at 1:40 pm #

    I’m sure Zullo will present this evidence shortly after the release of the Michelle Obama “Whitey” tape.

  39. avatar
    CarlOrcas January 28, 2013 at 1:40 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I believe this is what the birthers call “misprision of felony.”

    There used to be a statute in Arizona that made it a crime to fail to report crime but I couldn’t find it with a quick check of Title 13 so they may have changed it in some way from what I recall.

    In any case it’s hard to imagine anyone buys this nonsense……even from a used car salesman.

  40. avatar
    CarlOrcas January 28, 2013 at 1:42 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: I think there would have been civil unrest had he lost the election.

    Why?

  41. avatar
    Thomas Brown January 28, 2013 at 1:43 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: Wow. And you guys call birthers “wackos”.

    You are, in fact, wackos. Plus you cannot detect sarcasm.

    Two separate issues.

  42. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 28, 2013 at 1:52 pm #

    “If you go after the president too hard, you’re going after us…”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VP44ngv9hZI

  43. avatar
    Yoda January 28, 2013 at 1:54 pm #

    sfjeff: If Zullo thinks a crime occurred, and has proof that establishes it with 100% certainty- he should be conveying that to the DA or the FBI or Congress- and should not be telling the world about it.

    Based on the birther thought process, shouldn’t Zullo be afraid for his life? And being afraid for his life, shouldn’t he be making this information available to the the authorities as soon as possible in case he is taken out by the regime?

  44. avatar
    Jim January 28, 2013 at 1:55 pm #

    john:
    Document Is 100% Forgery; The Evidence Is Beyond A Reasonable Doubt

    Mike Zullo is working in law enforcement for the citizens of Arizona, he has evidence of a crime and is NOT reporting it to the proper authorities. He is now a co-conspirator in that crime for withholding evidence and not reporting the crime. So tell me John…is someone who breaks the law and his oath so easily as Mr. Zullo to be trusted?

  45. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 28, 2013 at 1:59 pm #

    I doubt Zullo has the evidence he claims. I think he’s being disingenuous. If he had such evidence, it would be a moral, if not legal obligation for him to disclose it.

    In either case, by his own words, he is untrustworthy, in my opinion.

    Jim: Mike Zullo is working in law enforcement for the citizens of Arizona, he has evidence of a crime and is NOT reporting it to the proper authorities. He is now a co-conspirator in that crime for withholding evidence and not reporting the crime.So tell me John…is someone who breaks the law and his oath so easily as Mr. Zullo to be trusted?

  46. avatar
    Thinker January 28, 2013 at 2:01 pm #

    I think that the peaceful resolution of the 2000 election fiasco shows that Americans have a high regard for the courts and the political process. A lot of people were angry at various points in the process. But there were no riots, no calls for overthrow of the government, no talk of secession. In fact, the lawyers who headed the Bush and Gore legal teams during that fight are now working together to get same-sex marriage legalized at the federal level.

    I lived in Ecuador for several years. It is a beautiful place with wonderful people. But I have no problem stating unequivocally that the United States is far more politically sophisticated and robust than Ecuador.

    Dionisio Lopez:
    Dr. Conspiracy,

    People riot in this country when their basketball team/football team win/lose games. Based on the popularity and support of Obama, I think there would have been civil unrest had he lost the election.

    You find that offensive? That’s pretty funny. So America is that much more civilized than say Ecuador, Venezuela, Columbia, India?

    I think you need a reality check.

  47. avatar
    scott e January 28, 2013 at 2:04 pm #

    i like mike zullo, he seems like a decent guy.

  48. avatar
    justlw January 28, 2013 at 2:05 pm #

    Thinker: I think that the peaceful resolution of the 2000 election fiasco shows that Americans have a high regard for the courts and the political process. A lot of people were angry at various points in the process. But there were no riots, no calls for overthrow of the government, no talk of secession.

    Yeah, I’m still trying to figure out what’s different about this situation in Dionisio’s mind. What could it be? Dionisio, could you post a link to a video or something so we can gain a better understanding of how your mind is working on this?

  49. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 28, 2013 at 2:09 pm #

    People are more passionate about Obama than Gore, or Nixon.

    Let me ask this: If Obama lost the election, *and* there was evidence of voter fraud (that’s a stretch, I know), do you think there would have been any rioting?

  50. avatar
    CarlOrcas January 28, 2013 at 2:10 pm #

    Jim: Mike Zullo is working in law enforcement for the citizens of Arizona, he has evidence of a crime and is NOT reporting it to the proper authorities. He is now a co-conspirator in that crime for withholding evidence and not reporting the crime.So tell me John…is someone who breaks the law and his oath so easily as Mr. Zullo to be trusted?

    Actually what John and his fellow travelers don’t understand is that Zullo isn’t working in Arizona law enforcement. He has absolutely no authority, no police powers…..nothing, nada.

  51. avatar
    Rickey January 28, 2013 at 2:11 pm #

    john:
    As far the verifications go, I believe Onaka is lying and even if he isn’t lying, his verifications are legally vague as to confirm that Obama’s BC is legally nonvalid.

    In any event, Had it been known that Obama was ineligible after he was elected in 2008, it would not be unreasonable to believe that the State of Hawaii would go along with official narrative that Obama was born in Hawaii….

    Nonsense. Hawaii certified Obama’s birth in 2007, long before he was even nominated.

    When will Zullo find his “right opportunity” to release his so-called evidence? What is he waiting for?

    “I have people that have actually been studying it and they cannot believe what they’re finding.” – Donald Trump, April 7 2011

    You birthers are so gullible!

  52. avatar
    donna January 28, 2013 at 2:19 pm #

    Rickey:

    hawaii dispelled the birthers when headed by REPUBLICAN governor lisa lingle who was campaigning for mccain

  53. avatar
    CarlOrcas January 28, 2013 at 2:21 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: et me ask this: If Obama lost the election, *and* there was evidence of voter fraud (that’s a stretch, I know), do you think there would have been any rioting?

    So, under those circumstances, who do you think would riot?

  54. avatar
    Bob January 28, 2013 at 2:21 pm #

    Whatever happened with the man (Scott Huminski) who claimed he was beaten up and threatened by Arpaio when he tried to serve him one of Orly’s “subpoenas?”

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/10/the-perils-of-service/

  55. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 28, 2013 at 2:25 pm #

    Arthur

    OK. I said who I was – and you call me a liar.

    Who are you?

  56. avatar
    justlw January 28, 2013 at 2:25 pm #

    Arthur: This domain could be anyone in the CMU “community.” But their user list shows no “dalopez.”

    Actually, it does. If he’s the same person, you can call him “Al.” He works for ACIS, a group it turns out I had some association with *mumble* years ago.

    Scary what information you can find with a simple query.

  57. avatar
    Sef January 28, 2013 at 2:26 pm #

    john: even if he isn’t lying, his verifications are legally vague as to confirm that Obama’s BC is legally nonvalid.

    I’m afraid that your sammitch landed butter side down.

  58. avatar
    Scientist January 28, 2013 at 2:28 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: People are more passionate about Obama than Gore, or Nixon.

    The passion is largely on the sie of his enemies. They are the ones threatening secession, nullification, second amendment solutions.

    Dionisio Lopez: Let me ask this: If Obama lost the election, *and* there was evidence of voter fraud (that’s a stretch, I know), do you think there would have been any rioting?

    No. What evidence do you have otherwise? There might have been peaceful demonstrations demanding an inquiry into the voter fraud, or there might not have been but that could be true for any candidate who lost due to clear and undeniable fraud.

    The truth is that if the birthers could prove their case (I mean with actual evidence), most Obama supporters would suggest he resign and give Joe Biden a shot. Joe has become quite beloved in recent days, in case you missed it. He could then appoint Hillary as VP and not 1 Democrat in 100 would be too upset.

  59. avatar
    1% Silver Nitrate January 28, 2013 at 2:35 pm #

    “and we are not going to make public until we have the right opportunity”

    Just as the army of Obot vigilantes (led by Obot1, perhaps?) arrive on the doorstep of every birther patriot to carry out the directive of Executive Order #24 & confiscate all the guns in the household (a first step in rounding up the inhabitants for the FEMA re-education camps), then . . . POW!!

  60. avatar
    Arthur January 28, 2013 at 2:37 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: OK. I said who I was – and you call me a liar.

    I didn’t call you a liar. I asked if you wish to clarify. You sought to establish some measure of credibility. When Thomas looked into what you posted, he couldn’t corroborate your claim.

    Do you wish to clarify?

    Also, do you wish to refute my assertion that you misrepresented what Rep. Waters said? Or do you just want to acknowledge that you were wrong and be done with it? Or do you just want to be silent and stop posting inaccurate information and invalid opinions?

  61. avatar
    justlw January 28, 2013 at 2:37 pm #

    I wonder if he’s the one who set up their department web server? It has a pretty awesome home page. It’s probably got them PDF APIs and stuff.

  62. avatar
    john January 28, 2013 at 2:39 pm #

    “So will we have to wait until 2017 to see the evidence?”

    Maybe Doc. The truth will come out and will come out probably long after his term ends. I remember MommaE said she had the patience for waiting for the truth to come and when it came out, MommaE said that Obama would be remembered like this – “Barack Obama, the 44th President, served term 2 terms as an ineligible President.”

    I wonder what ever happen to MommaE. She was old and in ill health. I wonder if she died?

  63. avatar
    aesthetocyst January 28, 2013 at 2:53 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez:
    People are more passionate about Obama than Gore, or Nixon.

    Let me ask this: If Obama lost the election, *and* there was evidence of voter fraud (that’s a stretch, I know), do you think there would have been any rioting?

    No. The court process would play out. What are you basing the ‘more passionate” claim on?

    … and are you referring to his supporters, or his detractors? Oopsie, I think I see some bias sticking out there, D.

  64. avatar
    misha marinsky January 28, 2013 at 2:59 pm #

    donna: Rickey: hawaii dispelled the birthers when headed by REPUBLICAN governor lisa lingle who was campaigning for mccain

    I keep saying this. Sigh…

    Linda Lingle is Jewish. She believed McCain/Palin would be better for Israel, than Obama.

    If she could have found anything, the GOP would have used it with glee.

  65. avatar
    misha marinsky January 28, 2013 at 3:04 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: I doubt Zullo has the evidence he claims. I think he’s being disingenuous. If he had such evidence, it would be a moral, if not legal obligation for him to disclose it.

    In either case, by his own words, he is untrustworthy, in my opinion.

    You just did a 180. I want some of what you’re using.

  66. avatar
    Thomas Brown January 28, 2013 at 3:07 pm #

    Arthur: I didn’t call you a liar.

    That was me. You crept up and bellowed that you had document-imaging credentials, citing your professional position as evidence that you know what you’re talking about. I tried to verify your credentials. You made it sound like you worked for a group who has no record of you, and gave a website domain connected to CMU, but it’s actually just a non-academically-vetted publication site. So: you are probably a Nobody pretending to be a Somebody. In document-image-judging credibility terms, at any rate.

    But you could verify your creds. Try this:

    1) How does mixed-raster compression figure into the way one could argue the authenticity or fraudulence of the LFBC .pdf on the White House website?

    2) Is mixed-raster imaging introduced by the scanner software used, or by the software that converted the image into a .pdf file? Or both, or neither?

    3) Does the .pdf image show evidence of using character-recognition software? If so, where?

    4) Do any of the separated layers in the image consist of a .jpeg file?

  67. avatar
    misha marinsky January 28, 2013 at 3:07 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: OK. I said who I was

    I’m rubber, and you’re glue…

  68. avatar
    Arthur January 28, 2013 at 3:11 pm #

    misha marinsky: I’m rubber, and you’re glue…

    I am he that walks unseen. I am the clue-finder, the web-cutter, the stinging fly. I was chosen for the lucky number. I am he that buries his friends alive and drowns them and draws them alive again from the water. I came from the end of bag, but no bag went over me. I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ring-winner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider.

  69. avatar
    misha marinsky January 28, 2013 at 3:12 pm #

    CarlOrcas: In any case it’s hard to imagine anyone buys this nonsense……even from a used car salesman.

    No, it’s reasonable from a used car salesman. Just look at Randall Terry, and the terrorism he is an apologist for.

  70. avatar
    aesthetocyst January 28, 2013 at 3:20 pm #

    misha marinsky: No, it’s reasonable from a used car salesman. Just look at Randall Terry, and the terrorism he is an apologist for.

    Please stop insulting the Democratic runner-up in this year’s Okieland “Democratic” Primary. He did his best. He tried hard. *cough*

    PS – by “stop”, I mean continue.

  71. avatar
    justlw January 28, 2013 at 3:23 pm #

    Arthur: I am he that walks unseen. I am the clue-finder, the web-cutter, the stinging fly. I was chosen for the lucky number. I am he that buries his friends alive and drowns them and draws them alive again from the water. I came from the end of bag, but no bag went over me. I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ring-winner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider.

    That’s just the sort of thing that could cause widespread civil unrest in Esgaroth.

  72. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 28, 2013 at 3:37 pm #

    The eagles are coming.

    justlw: That’s just the sort of thing that could cause widespread civil unrest in Esgaroth.

  73. avatar
    Dave B. January 28, 2013 at 3:38 pm #

    “He lacks even the minimal qualifications to evaluate any evidence, serving as little more than the downspout of the birther misinformation drain pipe.” I tend to think of it in more anatomical terms, and I place him right at the very end. Corsi I tend to think of as the unfortunate consequence of a very inconvenient but sometimes necessary surgical procedure.

  74. avatar
    Rickey January 28, 2013 at 3:38 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez:

    People riot in this country when their basketball team/football team win/lose games.

    Really? I recall instances in which fans of winning teams got carried away with their celebrations, but there have been instances of fans of losing teams rioting? Oddly enough, I heard nothing about rioting in Boston or Atlanta a week ago.

    In fact, as has been documented in the book “Sports Fan Violence in North America” by Professor Jerry M. Lewis, sports riots in the U.S. have almost always been started by fans of the WINNING team. If black Americans were going to riot over President Obama, they would have done it on November 6.

    The “riots in the streets” canard is nothing more than a racist rationalization to explain why so many white people voted for Barack Obama.

  75. avatar
    Thinker January 28, 2013 at 3:43 pm #

    I think there is more passion among the lovers and the haters of Obama than there was for Gore in 2000, but I don’t think that is true about Nixon. The United States was very, very divided during Nixon’s presidency. There was Viet Nam, civil rights, the sexual revolution, economic recession, the gas crisis, the Cold War, shifting demographics, Watergate, and lots more sources of significant conflict. When Gerald Ford made his famous “our long national nightmare is over” speech, he was specifically referring to Watergate but, in retrospect, Nixon’s resignation marked the end of one of the most politically divisive eras in US history. And the transfer of power was entirely peaceful.

    Dionisio Lopez:
    People are more passionate about Obama than Gore, or Nixon.

  76. avatar
    JD Reed January 28, 2013 at 3:45 pm #

    john:
    “So will we have to wait until 2017 to see the evidence?”

    Maybe Doc.The truth will come out and will come out probably long after his term ends. I remember MommaE said she had the patience for waiting for the truth to come and when it came out, MommaE said that Obama would be remembered like this – “Barack Obama, the 44th President, served term 2 terms as an ineligible President.”

    I wonder what ever happen to MommaE.She was old and in ill health.I wonder if she died?

    So John, why do you have such faith that evidence of Obama’s ineligibility will come out? If there is no credible evidence now — and there isn’t, at least as far as Congress, the courts, the public, and the media (all but the hyperpartisan right wing of it) are concerned, how can you be so sure? This really illustrates your approach: You’re sure without proof that Obama is ineligible, so you believe that evidence will crop up one day to vindicate you. That’s bass-ackwards, to use one of my late father’s favorite terms. You could also call it Alice in Wonderland (or is it Through the Looking Glass?) logic: verdict first, then the evidence.

  77. avatar
    Dave B. January 28, 2013 at 3:46 pm #

    Well, yeah.

    Dionisio Lopez: Wow. And you guys call birthers “wackos”.

  78. avatar
    Rickey January 28, 2013 at 3:48 pm #

    john:
    The truth will come out and will come out probably long after his term ends.

    And what if “the truth” never comes out? Will that prove to you that “the truth” was really a figment of your imagination?

    I can see it all now. It’s 2043 and 82-year-old Barack Obama dies. Birther John sends in a request for Obama’s SS-5 and it turns out that Obama’s SSN was issued to him after all. Birther John’s head explodes.

  79. avatar
    aesthetocyst January 28, 2013 at 3:48 pm #

    Rickey: The “riots in the streets” canard is nothing more than a racist rationalization to explain why so many white people voted for Barack Obama.

    That, and ‘explaining’ why ‘the government’ will not take the eligibility issue seriously … because we’re held hostage by minority interest groups!

    It is a bizarre 21st-century update on slave revolts fears. And maybe a touch of 19th century Europe as well. “He’s too popular with the masses, we can’t kick him out. The mobs will take to the streets! De po’ folk is powerful uppity these days!”

    Give me a break. I wish the people were that passionate about civics and government. They’ve got cable TV, fast food, and on-demand streaming. Bread and circuses. There is poverty and injustice in America, but by historical standards, relatively little. The kind of suffering it takes to motivate a general uprising simply isn’t here.

  80. avatar
    Dave B. January 28, 2013 at 3:49 pm #

    So its authenticity is proof that it can’t be verified as authentic?

    john:
    It should also be pointed out that Hawaii (Onaka) HAS NO CHOICE but to confirm veracity of the White House Long Form Birth Certificate. Why???? Because the Long Form BC has the Stamp and the Seal of Hawaii. If Hawaii were to deny veracity, Hawaii would be in big big big trouble.The verifications therefore are SELF-SERVING and are of little value.

  81. avatar
    Scientist January 28, 2013 at 3:50 pm #

    Rickey: Really? I recall instances in which fans of winning teams got carried away with their celebrations, but there have been instances of fans of losing teams rioting?

    The only case I can recall was the 2011 Stanley Cup, when fans in Vancouver rioted after the Canucks lost game 7 to the Bruins. Of course, that occurred in Canada, though only 30 miles or so from the US.

    As far as elections, there was Mitt Romney’s planned fireworks in Boston to celebrate his “victory”. That was a laugh “riot”.

  82. avatar
    misha marinsky January 28, 2013 at 3:54 pm #

    JD Reed: If there is no credible evidence now — and there isn’t, at least as far as Congress, the courts, the public, and the media (all but the hyperpartisan right wing of it) are concerned, how can you be so sure?

    That’s something else I’ve been saying. The world is now filled with bloggers as well as journalists. Everyone with a computer wants to be the next Woodstein.

    So John, Zullo, Orly…here’s your chance.

  83. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 28, 2013 at 3:57 pm #

    :) Love it.

    This blog has a reputation for being a cesspool of race-baiters and anonymous cowards. That fine tradition continues.

    Reading through the archive, people like “scientist” (laughable) and those above, ridicule mock, shout down and create vile insults to anyone that does not tow the party line.

    “Dr Conspiracy” shares company with Zullo in that they both lack integrity. Dr. Conspiracy, as a self-described “racist”, obviously suffers cognitive impairment, like all racists do.

    The rest of the zealots come to this blog for mutual masturbation.

    Confirmation bias indeed, LOL.

  84. avatar
    misha marinsky January 28, 2013 at 3:57 pm #

    john: I wonder what ever happen to MommaE. She was old and in ill health. I wonder if she died?

    I killed her.

  85. avatar
    Rickey January 28, 2013 at 3:57 pm #

    Scientist: The only case I can recall was the 2011 Stanley Cup, when fans in Vancouver rioted after the Canucks lost game 7 to the Bruins. Of course, that occurred in Canada, though only 30 miles or so from the US.

    And of course sporting event riots are much more common elsewhere in the world, particularly at soccer matches.

  86. avatar
    misha marinsky January 28, 2013 at 4:02 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: This blog has a reputation for being a cesspool of race-baiters and anonymous cowards. That fine tradition continues.

    Woody Allen is my hero. You were expecting Shakespearean prose, maybe?

  87. avatar
    Scientist January 28, 2013 at 4:10 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: people like “scientist” (laughable) and those above, ridicule mock, shout down and create vile insults to anyone that does not tow the party line.

    Show me where I ridiculed you. Go on, I dare you. I asked you for evidence for your statement that there would have been riots if Obama lost. That isn’t ridicule, but a simple request for evidence. If you have any it is not too late to present it. Otherwise, what response should one have to somone who makes unsupported pronouncements?

  88. avatar
    Bob January 28, 2013 at 4:10 pm #

    Diogenes Lopez:

    How can a blog have “a reputation?” Just read the blog in question and you won’t have to rely on someone else’s word.

  89. avatar
    American Mzungu January 28, 2013 at 4:11 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: Love it.
    This blog has a reputation for being a cesspool of race-baiters and anonymous cowards. That fine tradition continues.

    Just leave it.

  90. avatar
    US Citizen January 28, 2013 at 4:23 pm #

    aesthetocyst: It is a bizarre 21st-century update on slave revolts fears.

    You don’t have to go back that far.
    Birthers will recall Los Angeles in 1965 and 1992.
    Older ones can recall southern riots in the ’50s.

    There was always some particular similarity about all these riots too.
    I just can’t put my finger on it exactly.
    Something about when “some people” don’t get their way.

  91. avatar
    Rickey January 28, 2013 at 4:34 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez

    This blog has a reputation for being a cesspool of race-baiters and anonymous cowards. That fine tradition continues.

    We couldn’t have kept it up without your contributions. Thank you.

  92. avatar
    Keith January 28, 2013 at 4:34 pm #

    Rickey: I heard nothing about rioting in Boston

    They didn’t want to be late for the party at Gronk’s place.

  93. avatar
    Keith January 28, 2013 at 4:41 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: “Dr Conspiracy” shares company with Zullo in that they both lack integrity. Dr. Conspiracy, as a self-described “racist”, obviously suffers cognitive impairment, like all racists do.

    Easy there bucko. You are a guest in the Doc’s home. He allows a great deal of leeway in opinion expression, more than any on ‘our’ side is afforded on any of the birther sites.

    But he does have a line, and unless you are actually trying to get busted, perhaps you could tone down your rhetoric a tad.

  94. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 28, 2013 at 4:51 pm #

    Do as you wish.

    Keep it legal ;)

    Keith: Easy there bucko. You are a guest in the Doc’s home. He allows a great deal of leeway in opinion expression, more than any on ‘our’ side is afforded on any of the birther sites.

    But he does have a line, and unless you are actually trying to get busted, perhaps you could tone down your rhetoric a tad.

  95. avatar
    Majority Will January 28, 2013 at 5:05 pm #

    I’m trying to remember who said the WH BC copy was a forgery but couldn’t explain what the intent of forging it would be considering the state of Hawaii verified that the information was the same as on the original record on file proving that the President is a natural born citizen.

  96. avatar
    Craig HS January 28, 2013 at 5:06 pm #

    Of course he won’t. He’s had his credibility shot to the wind, so all he’s got left is a scorched earth exit to restore some wounded pride.

  97. avatar
    Craig HS January 28, 2013 at 5:08 pm #

    CarlOrcas: There used to be a statute in Arizona that made it a crime to fail to report crime but I couldn’t find it with a quick check of Title 13 so they may have changed it in some way from what I recall.

    In any case it’s hard to imagine anyone buys this nonsense……even from a used car salesman.

    Wow. If we could find that one, it’d be a helluva “put up or shut up” to Zullo and Co.

  98. avatar
    Andy January 28, 2013 at 5:08 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez:
    Love it.

    This blog has a reputation for being a cesspool of race-baiters and anonymous cowards. That fine tradition continues.

    Reading through the archive, people like “scientist” (laughable) and those above, ridicule mock, shout down and create vile insults to anyone that does not tow the party line.

    “Dr Conspiracy” shares company with Zullo in that they both lack integrity. Dr. Conspiracy, as a self-described “racist”, obviously suffers cognitive impairment, like all racists do.

    The rest of the zealots come to this blog for mutual masturbation.

    Confirmation bias indeed, LOL.

    For you to say that this blog has a bad reputation is idiotic. This is the person with credentials that he can’t verify, and still doesn’t answer questions directed to him. Reputation – the fact that you are still here means it’s much better than you just said.

  99. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater January 28, 2013 at 5:20 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: Love it.
    This blog has a reputation for being a cesspool of race-baiters and anonymous cowards. That fine tradition continues.

    Your incessant whining is very unbecoming. It’s funny how you came here made a bunch of statements and when asked to back them up you go back to playing the victim as every birther before you has done. I love the broad generalizations you make about people “towing the party line” when this issue isn’t democrat/republican. The sane people aren’t on the birther side and the birthers continue to represent a tiny minority fringe. Also your part about a blog having a reputation from whence did you come from to get to this blog in order for you to claim some pre-existing reputation. Yes the butthurt seems to be strong with this one Doc.

  100. avatar
    Arthur January 28, 2013 at 5:34 pm #

    Andy: This is the person with credentials that he can’t verify, and still doesn’t answer questions directed to him.

    Where have we seen this behavior before? Oh, yes, now I remember: in nearly every birther who has come to this site claiming expertise, offering evidence, or making an argument.

  101. avatar
    Sef January 28, 2013 at 5:36 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: I agree in that if Obama were removed from office, for any reason, there would be widespread civil unrest.

    So you are saying that come Jan 20, 2017 we’s all in beeeeeg trouble.

  102. avatar
    Arthur January 28, 2013 at 5:55 pm #

    justlw: That’s just the sort of thing that could cause widespread civil unrest in Esgaroth.

    Or on Erebor.

  103. avatar
    sfjeff January 28, 2013 at 6:01 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: Love it.This blog has a reputation for being a cesspool of race-baiters and anonymous cowards. >

    “Reputation”? What do you and the high school nerds sneak smokes out back and talk about which blogs are ‘easy’?

    Reputation? Seriously- other than Birther blogs- which are all of what you accuse Doc’s site to be- who else even knows or cares about the ‘reputation’ you speak of.

    Let us know when you have a grown up discussion to bring to the table.

  104. avatar
    misha marinsky January 28, 2013 at 6:09 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: This blog has a reputation

    Why, thank you.

    My step-father, who was Orthodox, always used to say to me “Now I know why you like Woody Allen. You’re both clowns.”

  105. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 28, 2013 at 6:12 pm #

    “Recovering racist” if you please.

    Dionisio Lopez: Dr. Conspiracy, as a self-described “racist”, obviously suffers cognitive impairment, like all racists do.

  106. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 28, 2013 at 6:21 pm #

    The difference is that this was before Gore created the Internet.

    Thinker: I think there is more passion among the lovers and the haters of Obama than there was for Gore in 2000, but I don’t think that is true about Nixon. The United States was very, very divided during Nixon’s presidency.

  107. avatar
    justlw January 28, 2013 at 6:26 pm #

    I totally agree with those who take umbrage at anyone “towing the line.”

    It’s “toeing the line”. Unless, I suppose, you’re water skiing.

    Thank you.

  108. avatar
    misha marinsky January 28, 2013 at 6:42 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: anyone that does not tow the party line.

    See above.

  109. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 28, 2013 at 6:45 pm #

    The appeal to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals was denied (re: temporary restraining order).

    On January 8, the District Court dismissed the Huminski case with prejudice as a sanction for filing 13 frivolous and duplicative motions after the Court admonished him to stop doing that.

    Bob: Whatever happened with the man (Scott Huminski) who claimed he was beaten up and threatened by Arpaio when he tried to serve him one of Orly’s “subpoenas?”

  110. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 28, 2013 at 6:45 pm #

    Is that like “moving the goalposts?”

    justlw: I totally agree with those who take umbrage at anyone “towing the line.”

  111. avatar
    misha marinsky January 28, 2013 at 6:54 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The difference is that this was before Gore created the Internet.

    Not to argue, but…

    Claim: VP Gore claimed he invented the Internet.
    Status: False

    Read on: http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp

  112. avatar
    The Committee January 28, 2013 at 7:01 pm #

    john:

    I wonder what ever happen to MommaE.

    She got what was coming to her. Something to think about, sweet pea.

  113. avatar
    Reality Check January 28, 2013 at 7:03 pm #

    Logic was never jy’s strong suit. As a matter of fact that suit is not even in the hand he was dealt.

    realist: LOL….

    Where do you nutbags come up with this sort of twisted logic.Unbelievable.
    How do you walk and breathe at the same time?

  114. avatar
    Yoda January 28, 2013 at 7:07 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: This blog has a reputation for being a cesspool of race-baiters and anonymous cowards. That fine tradition continues.

    One big difference between this blog and birther sites is that some of us will defend birthers from unfair attacks. Unlike birther sites, this blog is about presenting the truth even if it occasionally means justifying birther conduct. You will never see that on a birther site.

  115. avatar
    misha marinsky January 28, 2013 at 7:40 pm #

    Yoda: Unlike birther sites, this blog is about presenting the truth even if it occasionally means justifying birther conduct. You will never see that on a birther site.

    Exactly. Like this: “Orly, I want to help you. Check your brake lines.”

  116. avatar
    Thomas Brown January 28, 2013 at 7:47 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez:

    This blog has a reputation for being a cesspool of race-baiters and anonymous cowards.

    The rest of the zealots come to this blog for mutual masturbation.

    I don’t know ’bout all that race-baitin’ and peter-pullin’ stuff, there, slim… But I post under my real name, Thomas Brown, and I own the best woodworking shop in Baltimore.

    That makes me not exactly “anonymous.” So why don’t you look me up and test that “coward” part out for yourself? Just come on down and spew the same sorta mouth-diarrhea you dump in these comments right to my face.

  117. avatar
    MattR January 28, 2013 at 8:20 pm #

    Thinker: I think that the peaceful resolution of the 2000 election fiasco shows that Americans have a high regard for the courts and the political process. A lot of people were angry at various points in the process. But there were no riots, no calls for overthrow of the government, no talk of secession. In fact, the lawyers who headed the Bush and Gore legal teams during that fight are now working together to get same-sex marriage legalized at the federal level.

    Closest we had to riots were the hundreds of paid Republicans trying to intimidate the Miami Dade board of elections into stopping the recount

  118. avatar
    aesthetocyst January 28, 2013 at 8:34 pm #

    US Citizen: You don’t have to go back that far.

    I wasn’t discounting the history of race riots in the US, US, but noting how far back these fears the birthers tap into go. There used to be a nut over at Amazon raving about flash mob and Obama’s “brown shirt militia”. And there’s plenty of the same all over the interwebs.

    A more interesting example to me is the opposite examples, instance where a majority riot and engage in a mass lynching of a minority community. It happened here in Tulsa in the early 20s (Just as the KKK 2.0 was reaching its zenith …. hmmmm). There are several other examples from this century from across the country. The gun rights crowd never brings these incidents up; see what an armed populace can do? Fun.

  119. avatar
    aesthetocyst January 28, 2013 at 8:45 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Is that like “moving the goalposts?”

    If a tow line is involved. I never imagine birfers being that prepared, organized, or ingenious; rather, they are always yoked to their goalposts like horses. In my mind, at least. ;)

    Is the new nautical theme a warmup; for Talk Like a Pirate Day? Seems early.

  120. avatar
    BillTheCat January 28, 2013 at 8:50 pm #

    I have to say, considering folks like Dionisio and other colorful characters here on Doc’s site, I have to give respect to John, who though being a True Believer is always polite and never seems to get rattled. Have to give him props for that :)

  121. avatar
    Northland10 January 28, 2013 at 9:12 pm #

    aesthetocyst: I wasn’t discounting the history of race riots in the US, US, but noting how far back these fears the birthers tap into go. There used to be a nut over at Amazon raving about flash mob and Obama’s “brown shirt militia”. And there’s plenty of the same all over the interwebs.

    If I recall, many of the “riots” in the early 20th century Chicago had equal involvement from white gangs (if not perpetrated by them in the first place).

    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/110488/Chicago-Race-Riot-of-1919

  122. avatar
    Northland10 January 28, 2013 at 9:13 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: This blog has a reputation for being a cesspool of race-baiters and anonymous cowards. That fine tradition continues.

    Have you been to Obama Release Your Records lately?

  123. avatar
    Greenfinches January 28, 2013 at 9:22 pm #

    justlw: I totally agree with those who take umbrage at anyone “towing the line.”

    It’s “toeing the line”.

    oh thank you, thank you….. this constant ‘towing’ rubbish annoys………

  124. avatar
    Dave B. January 28, 2013 at 9:39 pm #

    It’s when they say “hard road to hoe” that gets me.

    justlw: I totally agree with those who take umbrage at anyone “towing the line.”

    It’s “toeing the line”.

  125. avatar
    Keith January 28, 2013 at 9:56 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez:
    Do as you wish.

    Keep it legal

    I can’t do anything. It isn’t my place. I just offering a little friendly advice.

    And by the way, didn’t you get the memo? “Do as you wish” shall be the whole of the law. (you gotta love a guy that calls his autobiography an ‘auto-hagiography’).

  126. avatar
    Daniel January 28, 2013 at 10:07 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    You, however, seem to think that the reason and the process don’t matter, that Obama supporters will riot if they don’t get their way.

    That’s because that’s exactly what birthers would do, if they could get enough people together.

    All of the birthers years of dripping and moaning is precisely because they didn’t get their own way. It’s also the reason they keep dripping and moaning in the face of overwhelming evidence, and in the face of overwhelming failure on their part. They will continue to drip and moan like spoilt children as long as they don’t get their own way, and like children, they assume everyone else behaves the same.

  127. avatar
    SluggoJD January 28, 2013 at 11:03 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez:
    Love it.

    This blog has a reputation for being a cesspool of race-baiters and anonymous cowards. That fine tradition continues.

    Reading through the archive, people like “scientist” (laughable) and those above, ridicule mock, shout down and create vile insults to anyone that does not tow the party line.

    “Dr Conspiracy” shares company with Zullo in that they both lack integrity. Dr. Conspiracy, as a self-described “racist”, obviously suffers cognitive impairment, like all racists do.

    The rest of the zealots come to this blog for mutual masturbation.

    Confirmation bias indeed, LOL.

    Translation:

    “I’m another fake who has been busted by these smart a-holes, so all I can do is lash out and make more sh!t up now”

  128. avatar
    Arthur January 28, 2013 at 11:30 pm #

    Daniel: That’s because that’s exactly what birthers would do, if they could get enough people together.

    They are a pitiful little congestion, aren’t they? But according to a poster at ORYR, birthers have “taken to the streets. I am not fooling around.” And to what does he refer? Marches? Protests? Civil Disobedience? No. He’s referring to stamping. Stamping dollar bills with the impression, “Where’s Obama’s Birth Certificate”! And not only is he stamping, he’s stamping strong: “We have increased the speed of the stamps. We are going to flood the market. It’s the only way.”

    http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2013/01/levin-caller-obama-couldnt-pass-everify.html#idc-container

  129. avatar
    The Magic M January 29, 2013 at 4:17 am #

    Sounds like a typical birther plan, given that they neither have the manpower nor the riches to actually spread a lot of stamped dollars anyway.
    I’m waiting for them to start a petition asking for 1 cent notes.

    1. Stamping money
    2. ???
    3. Success

  130. avatar
    The Magic M January 29, 2013 at 4:22 am #

    aesthetocyst: There used to be a nut over at Amazon raving about flash mob and Obama’s “brown shirt militia”.

    Sounds like Orlyspeak.

    Birthers hate flash mobs (and Occupy) with all their heart because they show every day how people actually get together doing things. It reminds them that they don’t have the numbers (and the “silent majority”) they like to claim they have, that’s why flash mobs have to be evil (and “organized by the regime”).

  131. avatar
    AlCum January 29, 2013 at 8:35 am #

    john:
    “The right time may come, and Zullo may present something, but Obama’s birth in Hawaii is already confirmed beyond a reasonable doubt….”

    Not Yet! Hawaii has yet to allow access to the original.As far the verifications go, I believe Onaka is lying and even if he isn’t lying, his verifications are legally vague as to confirm that Obama’s BC is legally nonvalid.

    In any event, Had it been known that Obama was ineligible after he was elected in 2008, it would not be unreasonable to believe that the State of Hawaii would go along with official narrative that Obama was born in Hawaii….

    If such ramification of ineligibility were to occur after the election, There would chaos and riots in the street.

    On the other hand, if as has been proven the “ineligibility claims” are all utter disproven nonsense, then we’ll just continue to chuckle at you!

  132. avatar
    AlCum January 29, 2013 at 8:36 am #

    john:
    It should also be pointed out that Hawaii (Onaka) HAS NO CHOICE but to confirm veracity of the White House Long Form Birth Certificate. Why???? Because the Long Form BC has the Stamp and the Seal of Hawaii. If Hawaii were to deny veracity, Hawaii would be in big big big trouble.The verifications therefore are SELF-SERVING and are of little value.

    Why doesn’t your head explode at such circular claptrap?

  133. avatar
    Dave January 29, 2013 at 9:22 am #

    It belatedly occurs to me to wonder — a couple months back Gallups was promising a giant birther revelation coming real soon. This rated a post at ORYR. Do you suppose this is it?

  134. avatar
    The Magic M January 29, 2013 at 11:15 am #

    Who can tell? ORYR pimped several “shock claims” atop *every* article, including “reporter has proof Obama was Indonesian citizen”, that never came to pass (I used to call out the admin on that for weeks until he removed it; after he closed the site to non-birthers, he put it back up again).

    You never know whose secret “OMG moment” coincides with or differs from whose other secret “OMG moment”. It’s like playing Memory with a set of invisible cards.

  135. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 29, 2013 at 2:51 pm #

    “Thomas Brown”

    I am willing to meet with you face-to-face (reasonable travel), and repeat my assertions.

    If you’re interested, let me know, we can arrange a phone call, and set-up a meeting time.

    Thomas Brown: I don’t know ’bout all that race-baitin’ and peter-pullin’ stuff, there, slim… But I post under my real name, Thomas Brown, and I own the best woodworking shop in Baltimore.

    That makes me not exactly “anonymous.”So why don’t you look me up and test that “coward” part out for yourself?Just come on down and spew the same sorta mouth-diarrhea you dump in these comments right to my face.

  136. avatar
    Arthur January 29, 2013 at 3:05 pm #

    “Dionisio Lopez”

    Thomas Brown has already told you he lives in Baltimore and owns a woodworking shop. If you want to meet him, you can Google his name and occupation and go to his website to get the information you need. You won’t do this, I know, because besides being a fool and liar, you are also a coward.

  137. avatar
    misha marinsky January 29, 2013 at 3:09 pm #

    AlCum: Why doesn’t your head explode at such circular claptrap?

    It’s circular, so it implodes.

  138. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 29, 2013 at 3:10 pm #

    Just got off the phone with Mr Brown, who called me an “asshole” and hung up on me.

    “Arthur” who?

    Arthur:
    “Dionisio Lopez”

    Thomas Brown has already told you he lives in Baltimore and owns a woodworking shop. If you want to meet him, you can Google his name and occupation and go to his website to get the information you need. You won’t do this, I know, because besides being a fool and liar, you are also a coward.

  139. avatar
    Arthur January 29, 2013 at 3:16 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: Just got off the phone with Mr Brown, who called me an “asshole” and hung up on me.

    “Arthur” who?

    Ah, Thomas Brown, such a good judge of character. And as for me, I’m you Daddy.

  140. avatar
    misha marinsky January 29, 2013 at 3:23 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: Just got off the phone with Mr Brown, who called me an “asshole” and hung up on me.

    It’s called the Truth In Labeling Act.

    I cannot tell you how much I laughed. It was soo good, Angel and Max looked at me.

    BTW, that’s what I usually call Denialists. Remember, we had to put up with Shrub Cheney for 8 long years.

  141. avatar
    aesthetocyst January 29, 2013 at 3:26 pm #

    Arthur: Ah, Thomas Brown, such a good judge of character. And as for me, I’m you Daddy.

    DL is either A) lying about calling TB, B) lying about what TB said, or C) telling the truth so far as a call taking place and terminology employed by DL. I note DL omits any guess as to why someone might say such a thing under such circumstances, nor gives any accounts of his own side of this alleged call.

    I would have suggested the use of the adjective ‘psychotic’ in addition to the noun.

    The me-me-meism and personal drama generation is getting awfully, unilaterally, thick in here.

    Perhaps Zullo’s secret evidence will convince others of the value of courtesy and respect? One of the symptoms of PDF madness tends to be a complete loss of both.

  142. avatar
    aesthetocyst January 29, 2013 at 3:28 pm #

    The Magic M: Birthers hate flash mobs (and Occupy) with all their heart because they show every day how people actually get together doing things.

    Yes, but I should have specified. This birfer obsesses over ‘black flash mobs’. As in apparently spontaneous outbreaks of group violence by black people.

  143. avatar
    Arthur January 29, 2013 at 3:33 pm #

    aesthetocyst: The me-me-meism and personal drama generation is getting awfully, unilaterally, thick in here.

    Well, I for one regret calling Dionisio Lopez a “fool, a liar, and a coward.” What I meant to say was that he’s a “fool, a liar, and a cowherd.”

  144. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 29, 2013 at 3:39 pm #

    Shall we do a conference call? Will I be accused of faking or mis-characterizing that too? With the consent of everyone involved, we can record it for posterity.

    Maybe a web-ex – I can walk anyone interested through the PDF in a hex editor, and explain why the document was not a scan of an original document.

    Every directive/argument in the PDF is backed by documentation. No politics or interpretation necessary.

    Fair enough?

  145. avatar
    misha marinsky January 29, 2013 at 3:44 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: With the consent of everyone involved, we can record it for posterior.

    FIFY

  146. avatar
    misha marinsky January 29, 2013 at 3:47 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: I can walk anyone interested through the PDF in a hex editor, and explain why the document was not a scan of an original document.

    Sheriff Arpaio: (602) 876-1801

    Let us know how it works out.

  147. avatar
    CarlOrcas January 29, 2013 at 3:48 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: Just got off the phone with Mr Brown, who called me an “asshole” and hung up on me.

    Discerning fellow.

  148. avatar
    misha marinsky January 29, 2013 at 3:50 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: Just got off the phone with Mr Brown, who called me an “as____e” and hung up on me.

    It’s called the Truth In Labeling Act.

    I cannot tell you how much I laughed. It was soo good, Angel and Max looked at me.

    BTW, that’s what I usually call Denialists. Remember, we had to put up with Shrub Cheney for 8 long years.

  149. avatar
    Arthur January 29, 2013 at 3:50 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: Shall we do a conference call? Will I be accused of faking or mis-characterizing that too?

    Tell it to the judge.

  150. avatar
    Thomas Brown January 29, 2013 at 3:52 pm #

    No, no. I did in fact call him an asshole. Once you start shouting into the phone, you’re an asshole.

    BUT, a word about Dionisio:

    I understand why he’s so pissed off. He is not stupid, and I think he may be a computer image / .pdf jockey of some sort. He is not stupid enough to focus on the fonts, kerning, security paper, etc. He didn’t even want to say that the .pdf has legal significance.

    His entire mind-set is based on the meta-data in the .pdf file (the version he’s picked to look at.anyway.) He is absolutely sure the meta-data indicates that the image was assembled from scratch, and did not start as a scan.

    A bad sign: I asked if he had read Woodman’s book and he said no.

    But if one assumes Dionisio is convinced that what he’s seeing indicates that the .pdf is wholly synthetic, his abusive tone and everything else flows from that.

    The question remaining is whether someone who is a .pdf wonk can explain to him why he is not seeing what he thinks he was seeing.

    So if someone does that and he honestly and open-mindedly considers what they are saying, he is no asshole. I unreservedly retract my statement.

    However, if he insists in the face of rational and sufficient explanation that he is correct, and the .pdf is a fraud, my assessment stands.

    Oh, and at least he’s no coward or lightweight troll. He’s seriously disturbed by the notion that fraud has been committed, and if he were right, that would indeed be troubling. So you cooler heads, especially those with .detailed .pdf metadata skills, can take it from here.

    Or not. As you will.

  151. avatar
    Majority Will January 29, 2013 at 3:59 pm #

    I’m still trying to remember who said the WH BC copy was a forgery but couldn’t explain what the intent of forging it would be considering the state of Hawaii verified that the information was the same as on the original record on file proving that the President is a natural born citizen.

    (the sound of crickets)

  152. avatar
    misha marinsky January 29, 2013 at 4:02 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: I can walk anyone interested through the PDF in a hex editor, and explain why the document was not a scan of an original document.

    I believe you are a reasonable person, so I’ll try again.

    Linda Lingle is Jewish and a Republican. I know that sounds crazy.

    She felt McCain/Palin would be better for Israel, than Obama. If she could have found anything, the GOP would have used it with glee.

    The world is filled with journalists and bloggers who want to be the next Woodstein.

    There isn’t anything.

  153. avatar
    Scientist January 29, 2013 at 4:05 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: Maybe a web-ex – I can walk anyone interested through the PDF in a hex editor, and explain why the document was not a scan of an original document

    I’m not sure anyone ever said the pdf was directly a scan of an original document.

    Would you just address the following question which has been asked and asked again: Since the information on it is verified to be correct, what is the significance of how it was created? I honestly don’t get the focus on that. Not trying to be hostile, but I think I deserve an answer.

  154. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 29, 2013 at 4:12 pm #

    What I know is postscript document format, and structuring conventions. I can comment on that.

    The internals of the PDF are not partisan, they are a set of instructions.

    The postscript does not change depending on who looks at it.

    Machines do what they are told. 1′s and 0′s are neither for, nor against Obama, or anyone else for that matter.

    Majority Will:
    I’m still trying to remember who said the WH BC copy was a forgery but couldn’t explain what the intent of forging it would be considering the state of Hawaii verified that the information was the same as on the original record on file proving that the President is a natural born citizen.

    (the sound of crickets)

  155. avatar
    Scientist January 29, 2013 at 4:18 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: Machines do what they are told.

    So why would anyone tell a machine to create a de novo document with all the correct information? Is your theory that the copy machine in Honolulu was broken and the repairman was on vacation, so they re-created the original? I guess that is possible.

  156. avatar
    Majority Will January 29, 2013 at 4:19 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez:
    What I know is postscript document format, and structuring conventions. I can comment on that.

    The internals of the PDF are not partisan, they are a set of instructions.

    The postscript does not change depending on who looks at it.

    Machines do what they are told. 1′s and 0′s are neither for, nor against Obama, or anyone else for that matter.

    You’re funny.

  157. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater January 29, 2013 at 4:21 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: Shall we do a conference call? Will I be accused of faking or mis-characterizing that too? With the consent of everyone involved, we can record it for posterity.Maybe a web-ex – I can walk anyone interested through the PDF in a hex editor, and explain why the document was not a scan of an original document.Every directive/argument in the PDF is backed by documentation. No politics or interpretation necessary. Fair enough?

    Who has said it was a scan of the original? We’ve said it was a scan of a copy. Tell me since you seem to be so intent on stating absolutely nothing concrete. What exactly was changed in the document when the content matches what the DOH has?

  158. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 29, 2013 at 4:27 pm #

    Scientist,

    I think it’s significant because the White House released it. I have not seen an explanation as to why, if the information is what Hawaii has on file, would the White House present that information they way they did?

    Rasterization and flattening is always prudent, but was *not* done (by examining the instructions in the PDF).

    From reading the press gaggle transcript, it appears to be it was presented to add credibility to the short form (WH Comm Dir stressed the short form is the only legal document).

    I became interested out of technical curiosity – obviously, it was stepping into a snake pit.

    Of course, all of that is speculation, and I cannot possibly know the intentions behind creating the long form image.

    Therefore, I just focus on the content of the PDF itself, which is a set of software instructions. That’s my domain, and that’s what I know.

    I don’t comment on the legal aspects of the image, and any speculation as to the motivations behind it are just that.

    Scientist: I’m not sure anyone ever said the pdf was directly a scan of an original document.

    Would you just address the following question which has been asked and asked again:Since the information on it is verified to be correct, what is the significance of how it was created?I honestly don’t get the focus on that.Not trying to be hostile, but I think I deserve an answer.

  159. avatar
    Scientist January 29, 2013 at 4:42 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: I think it’s significant because the White House released it. I have not seen an explanation as to why, if the information is what Hawaii has on file, would the White House present that information they way they did?

    If you are really that interested in the details, you should call the White House and ask them, since only they could say why they chose one format over another. You aren’t looking to speak with the President, who obviously didn’t scan the document and post it himself, but to the person in the document room who did it.

    To give a scientific analogy, from my own field (biochemistry and immunology), when I read a paper and detect what appears to me to be a flaw, I contact the authors and discuss it with them. I usually find they have a very good explanation that I hadn’t thought of (being a fallible human). What I don’t do is run around shouting fraud.

  160. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 29, 2013 at 4:44 pm #

    Sorry, I don’t know who Linda Lingle is – I’m not a republican and I’m not involved or affiliated or communicate with the GOP.

    I have my moments, but I try to be reasonable. I have not been involved in a “debate” over software instructions before.

    I think it’s perfectly fair for me to provide an explanation, or a walk-through of the PDF contents, so I’ll do that.

    Every single instruction in the PDF is backed by documentation. This is why I find it curious that this is even being debated.

    I seen a few videos where people open it up in Illustrator, etc. To me, all that is unnecessary, since all you need to do it open it with a text or hex editor, and you can read the instructions.

    If you don’t understand the instructions, every directive, and the arguments the directive accepts can be verified. So, it puzzles me that anyone has to “interpret” it. It’s software – machine instructions.

    misha marinsky: I believe you are a reasonable person, so I’ll try again.

    Linda Lingle is Jewish and a Republican. I know that sounds crazy.

    She felt McCain/Palin would be better for Israel, than Obama. If she could have found anything, the GOP would have used it with glee.

    The world is filled with journalists and bloggers who want to be the next Woodstein.

    There isn’t anything.

  161. avatar
    Majority Will January 29, 2013 at 4:45 pm #

    Wow. It strains belief how someone can avoid such a simple concept as matching and verified information. Is it obstinancy, trolling, or something else? Or some bizarre combination?

    Birthers never cease to amaze.

  162. avatar
    Scientist January 29, 2013 at 5:02 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: I have my moments, but I try to be reasonable

    If you were reasonable then you would call the White House and discuss your questions with the technical folks there, expert to expert. Let’s take an analogy: Suppose I hired you to do an IT job for me. You do it. Then, without discussing it with you, I take a full page ad in a trade journal saying “Lopez sucks. He did a terrible job for me.” You would be mad; you would be looking to sue me, and rightly so. That is what you are doing to the White House.

  163. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund January 29, 2013 at 5:07 pm #

    What I know is postscript document format, and structuring conventions.

    What the hell is “postscript document format”? Do you mean Portable Document Format, perchance?

  164. avatar
    aarrgghh January 29, 2013 at 5:11 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: Every single instruction in the PDF is backed by documentation. This is why I find it curious that this is even being debated.

    every single claim made by birfers has been debunked, multiple times, and every court case dismissed, judged frivolous and rendered moot, but i’m not in the least curious that birfers still insist on debating it, especially the minutiae. they’ve curled themselves into a ball and retreated into a form of infantile paralysis, crying themselves to sleep each night screaming “OBAMA’S NOT PRESIDENT OBAMA’S NOT PRESIDENT OBAMA’S NOT PRESIDENT” over and over and over …

  165. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater January 29, 2013 at 5:17 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: Scientist,I think it’s significant because the White House released it. I have not seen an explanation as to why, if the information is what Hawaii has on file, would the White House present that information they way they did?Rasterization and flattening is always prudent, but was *not* done (by examining the instructions in the PDF).From reading the press gaggle transcript, it appears to be it was presented to add credibility to the short form (WH Comm Dir stressed the short form is the only legal document).I became interested out of technical curiosity – obviously, it was stepping into a snake pit.Of course, all of that is speculation, and I cannot possibly know the intentions behind creating the long form image.Therefore, I just focus on the content of the PDF itself, which is a set of software instructions. That’s my domain, and that’s what I know.I don’t comment on the legal aspects of the image, and any speculation as to the motivations behind it are just that.

    You don’t see the logic in posting the information online in a standardized document format for the most people to read the quickest? You can’t even comment on anything technical since you won’t answer any direct questions.

  166. avatar
    El Diablo Negro January 29, 2013 at 5:18 pm #

    I believe he means this.

    Postscript File Format
    http://projects.gnome.org/gnumeric/doc/file-format-ps.shtml

    I used to convert PS to PDF files back in the day (our printer would not accept PS). But I am not in the desktop publishing field anymore.

    W. Kevin Vicklund: What the hell is “postscript document format”? Do you mean Portable Document Format, perchance?

  167. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater January 29, 2013 at 5:21 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: Sorry, I don’t know who Linda Lingle is – I’m not a republican and I’m not involved or affiliated or communicate with the GOP.I have my moments, but I try to be reasonable. I have not been involved in a “debate” over software instructions before.I think it’s perfectly fair for me to provide an explanation, or a walk-through of the PDF contents, so I’ll do that.Every single instruction in the PDF is backed by documentation. This is why I find it curious that this is even being debated.I seen a few videos where people open it up in Illustrator, etc. To me, all that is unnecessary, since all you need to do it open it with a text or hex editor, and you can read the instructions.If you don’t understand the instructions, every directive, and the arguments the directive accepts can be verified. So, it puzzles me that anyone has to “interpret” it. It’s software – machine instructions.

    Does your ranting actually have a point somewhere Mr. Lopez?

  168. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 29, 2013 at 5:24 pm #

    Looking at the data directly is how the Obots like me knew immediately that there was no Adobe Illustrator markup in the document and that it was saved by Preview on a Mac long before any birther expert figured that out (most notably Zebest).

    The point, though, is have you seen enough different PDF creation libraries in operation, and enough compression schemes to actually come to a conclusion about what you see in the Obama document, whether it is normal or abnormal? Do you know what MRC on a high-end Xerox workstation, opened with Preview and then saved on a Mac is supposed to look like?

    That has been the downfall of every other birther volunteer expert. They just ASSUME what the document should be based on some very limited experience. (Papit tried to survey more software, but missed the major players and embedded solutions). The qualified experts like Krawetz and Queiroz (holds patents on the processes) say that it looks perfectly normal.

    However, I think looking at the document as an image has its place, because NOBODY would be crazy enough intentionally to break up the layers they way the MRC algorithm did. Look at my article here, and tell me whether the argument makes sense, and how you would counter it?

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2013/01/ame-o-ospit-or-nstitution-not-in-ospit/

    Let me remind you, however, at this point you have not offered any technical argument, only an appeal to your own expertise. That will have to be forthcoming before we can discuss your conclusions.

    Dionisio Lopez: Every single instruction in the PDF is backed by documentation. This is why I find it curious that this is even being debated.

    I seen a few videos where people open it up in Illustrator, etc. To me, all that is unnecessary, since all you need to do it open it with a text or hex editor, and you can read the instructions.

    If you don’t understand the instructions, every directive, and the arguments the directive accepts can be verified. So, it puzzles me that anyone has to “interpret” it. It’s software – machine instructio

  169. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund January 29, 2013 at 5:31 pm #

    I am aware of the relationship between PostScript and PDF. I’m just wondering at the credentials of someone who got the nomenclature wrong. Granted, I’ve had it happen to me (e.g., once called something a “power transformer” when it was actually a “potential transformer” – both are valid terms for a piece of equipment that is basically constructed the same way, but they have different uses).

  170. avatar
    justlw January 29, 2013 at 5:50 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: I can walk anyone interested through the PDF in a hex edito

    Why the heck would you want to walk through it in a hex editor??

    Most of the document is in ASCII. With one exception, the only parts that are not are the image objects, and I don’t see what you’d gain by looking at them as hex. Maybe you can explain that.

    (For extra bonus points, Al: describe what the one non-ASCII, non-image object is, what it does, and how one would convert it to human-readable form. Hint: it wouldn’t be with a hex editor.)

    Perhaps you can just drop the dime here and explain what your evidence is that this document was not created with Mac OS Preview, using image objects and directives originally generated via an implementation of MRC.

  171. avatar
    misha marinsky January 29, 2013 at 6:19 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: Sorry, I don’t know who Linda Lingle is – I’m not a republican and I’m not involved or affiliated or communicate with the GOP.

    Then you are not qualified to even conjecture.

    Learn the basic background.

  172. avatar
    Sef January 29, 2013 at 6:19 pm #

    W. Kevin Vicklund: I am aware of the relationship between PostScript and PDF

    But did you know that PS is a ripoff of InterPress?

  173. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 29, 2013 at 6:29 pm #

    I do not agree that there is any prudence or lack of prudence in how the PDF was done.

    Hypothetically, let’s say you have Adobe Acrobat and you want to scan a birth certificate. What would you do?

    You’d go to the File Menu and select Create PDF. When you do that the menu expands and you say “From Scanner” and then the menu expands with:
    -Black and White Document
    -Grayscale Document
    -Color Document
    -Color Image
    -Custom Scan

    Given that the certificate is a document and that it’s in color, I would say that the normal selection would be Color Document, and if you do that Acrobat will do all sorts of things including breaking it into layers (MRC compression) and OCR. Open it on a Mac to check what it looks like, and Save it, and what you end up with has many of the characteristics we see in the White House long form.

    In the case of the White House long form PDF, Adobe Acrobat wasn’t used, but my point is that perfectly reasonable automatic processing (rather than manipulation, or incompetence or imprudence) leads to the same sort of document that we got from the White House.

    Sure the White House PDF attracted crazies out of the woodwork who never knew a PDF had layers, but the original birth certificate from 2008 which was a very high resolution image scan released as a JPG file brought out the crazies too. One cannot blame the White House for the crazies.

    Dionisio Lopez: Rasterization and flattening is always prudent, but was *not* done (by examining the instructions in the PDF).

  174. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund January 29, 2013 at 6:32 pm #

    Sef: But did you know that PS is a ripoff of InterPress?

    Yes, but not before my first comment (ran across the history while I was verifying my second comment).

  175. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 29, 2013 at 6:35 pm #

    And you are not involved in one now, since you’ve said nothing on that topic.

    Dionisio Lopez: I have not been involved in a “debate” over software instructions before.

  176. avatar
    Daniel January 29, 2013 at 7:40 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez:
    since all you need to do it open it with a… hex editor,

    POSER!!!!!!!!!

  177. avatar
    Daniel January 29, 2013 at 7:45 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez:
    So, it puzzles me that anyone has to “interpret” it. It’s software – machine instructions.

    Maybe it’s because postscript is an interpreted language.

    I thought you said you knew about this stuff….

  178. avatar
    AlCum January 29, 2013 at 9:18 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez:
    Shall we do a conference call? Will I be accused of faking or mis-characterizing that too? With the consent of everyone involved, we can record it for posterity.

    Maybe a web-ex – I can walk anyone interested through the PDF in a hex editor, and explain why the document was not a scan of an original document.

    Every directive/argument in the PDF is backed by documentation. No politics or interpretation necessary.

    Fair enough?

    You’re quite incorrect and appear not to know anything about PDFs.

  179. avatar
    Keith January 29, 2013 at 10:04 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: I have my moments, but I try to be reasonable. I have not been involved in a “debate” over software instructions before.

    Haven’t done much systems analysis or programming then have you? I was involved in “debates” over software instructions almost everyday of my programming life. Whether it was best to use a queue or a stack in a given circumstance, or whether a RISC was inherently better than a LISC, or whether IBM COBOL could call an IBM FORTRAN subroutine, or how to convince very effective ‘traditional’ programmers that they could be even more effective if they learned object oriented programming.

    If you are an IT professional, dealing with code of any kind, and you aren’t constantly debating software instructions, then you are not, in fact, professional nor worth considering as someone to look to for guidance. A self-styled ‘expert’ who isn’t constantly testing himself is no expert in any knowledge domain, least of all computer programming.

    That is why I no longer hold myself out as a expert in programming, though I’ve got over 40 years experience doing it. I am no longer actively engaged in debating with my peers, I am reduced to lonely hobbyist endeavors to keep some semblance of my skills intact.

  180. avatar
    Keith January 29, 2013 at 10:37 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: since all you need to do it open it with a text or hex editor

    I am reminded here of Thomas Dolby.

    The hex code of the PDF image is irrelevant. It is the INFORMATION that is important.

    I’m going to say that again, because your head is stuck in irrelevant detail:

    The hex code of the PDF image is irrelevant. It is the INFORMATION that is important.

    A hex editor HIDES the important part: the information.

    The purpose of a paper document is to communicate INFORMATION. The purpose of a computer file in PDF format is to communicate INFORMATION. There are myriad way the internal structure of a PDF file can be organized; the only thing important about the internal structure of a PDF file is can its structure be understood by a rendering engine so the that INFORMATION encoded in it can be made accessible to human eyes.

    The INFORMATION in the PDF file that the WH has produced in order to disseminate the contained INFORMATION over the internet has been verified to match the INFORMATION on the original birth event documentation held by the Hawai’ian Department of Health.

    Get it? the INFORMATION that the PDF contains is identical to the INFORMATION on the Hawai’ian originals. The PDF has done its job.

    The fact of the matter is, it doesn’t matter if the PDF was built bit-by-bit; byte-by-byte, word-by-word by a team of demented geeks in the basement of Blair House while they snorted cocaine and watched reruns of the X-Files over and over and over, or if it was scanned and compressed by a bog standard office scanner to some WH mailroom clerks Mac for uploading to the WH website.

    IT JUST DOESN’T MATTER.

    What matters is that the INFORMATION on the rendered image is identical to the INFORMATION in the Hawai’ian Department of Health files.

    Trying to impeach the document by looking at the computer file at byte level is complete and utter nonsense. The computer file is NOT RELEVANT; the INFORMATION is relevant.

    Your attempted diversion, or as Thomas Dolby put it, your attempt to ‘blind with Science’ is exactly what the phrase “can’t see the forest for the trees” was ‘invented’ to describe.

  181. avatar
    Thomas Brown January 29, 2013 at 11:51 pm #

    Daniel: Maybe it’s because postscript is an interpreted language.

    I thought you said you knew about this stuff….

    Another indicator that he is a poser: DL at one point said “it’s just ones and zeros.” I don’t care if you’re writing opcodes in assembler language, you never get down to binary.

    Plus, I asked Dionisio four questions (about which Doc gave numerous clues in a response above) which he never answered:

    1) How does mixed-raster compression figure into the way one could argue the authenticity or fraudulence of the LFBC .pdf on the White House website?

    2) Is mixed-raster imaging introduced by the scanning software used, or by the software that converted the image into a .pdf file? Or both, or neither?

    3) Does the .pdf image show evidence of using character-recognition software? If so, where?

    4) Do any of the separated layers in the image consist of a .jpeg file?

    If DL was really a digital image expert, he would have no trouble answering them.

    I now suspect he’s a total fraud who has learned a few juicy terms like “hex editor” and “metadata.”

    While he may not be a physical coward, his lack of substantive responses means he’s rather an intellectual coward.

  182. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund January 29, 2013 at 11:52 pm #

    So I looked at the White House long form pdf in a hex editor. Nothing really jumped out at me as a “This wasn’t a scan!!!!11!1eleventyone!”

    Instead, after the initial file type and version identifier, there’s a bunch of object calls. Some of these calls are very short, well some have metadata followed by long strands of the gobbledygook you tend to see when converting graphic data to hex.

    For instance, here’s what’s in the hex from approximately offset 000450 to 0007B0:

    0 obj.<< /Length 23 0 R /Type /XObject /Subtype /Image /Width 243 /Height 217 /ImageMask.true /BitsPerComponent 1 /Filter /FlateDecode >>.stream.x
    [gobbledygook that you see when you have graphic data expressed in hex]
    endstream.endobj.23 0 obj.671.endobj.24

    That’s the basically what you get for most of the file, up to near the end. Starting shortly after offset 05D000, you get:

    endstream.endobj.28 0 obj.2905.endobj.26 0 obj.[ /ICCBased 27 0 R ].endobj.29 0 obj.<< /Length 30 0 R /N 3 /Alternate /DeviceRGB /Filter /FlateDecode >>.stream.x
    [...]
    .endstream.endobj.30 0 obj.2615.endobj.11 0 obj.[ /ICCBased 29 0 R ].endobj.3 0 obj.<< /Type /Pages /MediaBox [0 0 612 792] /Count 1 /Kids [ 2 0 R ] >>.endobj.31 0 obj.<< /Type /Catalog /Pages 3 0 R >>.endobj.32 0 obj.().endobj.33 0 obj.(Mac OS X 10.6.7 Quartz PDFContext).endobj.34 0 obj.().endobj.35 0 obj.().endobj.36 0 obj.(Preview).endobj.37 0 obj.(D:20110427120924Z00’00′).endobj.38 0 obj.().endobj.39 0 obj.[ () ].endobj.1 0 obj.<< /Title 32 0 R /Author 34 0 R /Subject 35 0 R /Producer 33 0 R /Creator.36 0 R /CreationDate 37 0 R /ModDate 37 0 R /Keywords 38 0 R /AAPL:Keywords.39 0 R >>.endobj.xref.0
    [...]
    .trailer.<< /Size 40 /Root 31 0 R /Info 1 0 R /ID [ <d6fc2758ceb2f98f54abce9a4b28fc1c>.<d6fc2758ceb2f98f54abce9a4b28fc1c> ] >>.startxref.384395.%%EOF.

    I have bolded the metadata that is viewable from Adobe that shows that this file was “created” by viewing it in Preview and saving, as discussed above. This is the only obvious thing in the hex editor that might lead someone to conclude this was not a scan.

    Dionisio is welcome to point me to any data that he thinks proves his claim. Just list the offset and why it proves the file to not be a scan.

    W. Kevin Vicklund, P.E.
    Carnegie Mellon University Alumnus

  183. avatar
    roadburner January 30, 2013 at 4:41 am #

    Dave B.: It’s when they say “hard road to hoe” that gets me.

    that actually refers to having a very long road, and insufficient prostitutes to fully exploit it..

    HTH

    :D

  184. avatar
    The Magic M January 30, 2013 at 5:12 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: because NOBODY would be crazy enough intentionally to break up the layers they way the MRC algorithm did

    You know that I sometimes put on the birther hat and try to think about what *I* would claim if I were one (of course, being a sane intelligent person and not a conspiracy believer, my “birther claims” would make much more sense than the real ones).

    As far as this particular issue is concerned, I wonder why no birther ever claimed the document was “forged” using some highly advanced FBI software (and not by a human painfully moving bits and pieces about) – after all, birthers are convinced just about every government agency is “in on it”, and if that really were the case, the FBI would’ve been the place to go if the President wanted anything forged.

    One possible explanation is the birthers’ initial (and ongoing) desire to personally implicate Obama personally in the alleged forgery process (thus the claims “he did it himself, that’s why it’s so sloppy”), lest he could claim “I had no idea”.

    Still I’m puzzled why not even a tiny faction among them makes that claim. Maybe because they don’t even get to the point where they ask themselves that question (i.e. why and how a human would create layers of random points) and therefore don’t need to make up an explanation to save their worldview?

  185. avatar
    justlw January 30, 2013 at 5:48 am #

    Daniel: POSER!!!!!!!!!

    At least he didn’t say, “I used the ‘enhance’ command.”

  186. avatar
    The Magic M January 30, 2013 at 5:58 am #

    W. Kevin Vicklund: What the hell is “postscript document format”? Do you mean Portable Document Format, perchance?

    A dead giveaway he has no clue what he is talking about.

    I fondly remember deconstructing Paul Irey on the WND comments section. He also came up with a rendition of what PDF stands for that was way off, though he pretended to know a lot about typesetting and PDF’s and their specifics.

    It’s like somebody claiming to know everything about AIDS and then stating the abbreviation stands for “Acute Internal Dysfunction Syndrome”.

  187. avatar
    justlw January 30, 2013 at 6:19 am #

    Thomas Brown:

    He didn’t even want to say that the .pdf has legal significance.

    His entire mind-set is based on the meta-data in the .pdf file (the version he’s picked to look at.anyway.)He is absolutely sure the meta-data indicates that the image was assembled from scratch, and did not start as a scan.

    The question remaining is whether someone who is a .pdf wonk can explain to him why he is not seeing what he thinks he was seeing.

    He’s seriously disturbed by the notion that fraud has been committed, and if he were right, that would indeed be troubling. So you cooler heads, especially those with .detailed .pdf metadata skills, can take it from here.

    I just read this more carefully, and I see your point here. The key is that we can yell until the cows come home, “It’s the data, not the encoding,” and that won’t help, because his concern — and I think this may be true of many birthers — is that what they see doesn’t make sense to them, so clearly, even if everything else adds up (and it does): why has this file been hacked?

    And that of course, is why they keep dragging us down this rabbit hole, hex editors and all.

    So let me take one more stab at it, with an eye to addressing this mindset.

    Al/Dionisio: what you are seeing, at the hex editor level, is not generated by what you might think of as a scanner program. You cannot match it up with what you might expect from such an app. If you’re expecting it to look like such a file, I can understand why it might look suspicious to you.

    What it is generated by is the Quartz graphic layer of Mac OS. It says so right on the label. (If you’re looking at the file, you’ll see the string is assigned to indirect object 33, which is in turn assigned to the /Producer entry in the document information dictionary.)

    So, if you’re looking for any inconsistencies in the format of the document file itself — not in how it was created, why it was created, whether a forger did it — you need to ask, “Does this file look like a file created by the Quartz graphic layer of Mac OS?”

    The answer turns out to be, “it sure does.”

    How do you test this? Simple: take any PDF file, open it in the Preview command in Mac OS, and save it to another file. The result will be a file created by the Quartz graphic layer of Mac OS.
    And its internal structure will look like the WH PDF file.

    Conclusion: the file was not created by a human assembling PDF instructions by directly editing a file. It was created by the Quartz graphic layer of Mac OS.

    To my mind, the most likely scenario is that it was created by someone opening an email attachment in Mac OS, then saving that attachment.

    Does this help? I’m seriously trying to avoid snark here — I want to give you a testable method for verifying that this was not a handcrafted PDF file.

    Now, if you’re willing to conclude that the file is not handcrafted, and have other questions about how it might have come to be, cool*. But can we lose the “had to have been hacked” theory?

    (*Others might disagree with the “cool,” but I’m willing to give it a go. :-) )

  188. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 30, 2013 at 3:00 pm #

    I note that high-end multi-function copy machines can scan to email.

    justlw: To my mind, the most likely scenario is that it was created by someone opening an email attachment in Mac OS, then saving that attachment.

  189. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund January 30, 2013 at 3:20 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I note that high-end multi-function copy machines can scan to email.

    Not just high-end. I have access to several $200-$500 MFC machines with this function. I’ve never used it, though.

  190. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 30, 2013 at 7:32 pm #

    Thanks for all the comments above, I will take time to address each one – I should be able to do that this weekend.

    In the meantime, a few points:

    * I did not mean to imply the image was manufactured or altered outside of Preview.

    * The long form was processed differently than other documents in the media release (before Preview) Ex: this was produced within minutes of the long form: http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/birth-certificate-correspondence.pdf

    * The output from Preview is consistent with printing an existing electronic copy (not from scan). This document bundle was most likely emailed or copied from storage media, etc.

    * The document consisted of multiple layers before it was process by Quartz

    * Most of the compression/artifacts/grouping in the layers, in my opinion, is consistent with MRC-3 (this includes the artifacts that I see with text)

    * The background layer, with the security paper with form lines, in my opinion is not segmented as I would expect with MRC-3. The text on subsequent layers is grouped as I would expect with MRC-3.

    * The layers in the document, in my opinion, are consistent with being sourced from at least two scans.

    Hopefully, nothing above is too controversial, and I’ll provide a more verbose explanation shortly.

    Cheers,

    “Al” Lopez.

  191. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 30, 2013 at 7:54 pm #

    One more thing:

    I Could not find any other documents, outside of the BC document bundle, released by the WH, with a similar metadata “fingerprint” (PDF version, OS version, producer).

    I also could not find this signature in other sites like DailyKOS, snopes, etc.

    I did on factcheck.org, however. Of course, this does not necessarily *mean* anything, but from examining the metadata from documents I downloaded from factcheck, I was able to learn more about the type of scanners used, Author and other information. I’ll post more on this later.

  192. avatar
    Arthur January 30, 2013 at 8:59 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: I’ll post more on this later.

    Be still my heart.

  193. avatar
    Scientist January 30, 2013 at 9:26 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: The long form was processed differently than other documents in the media release (before Preview) Ex: this was produced within minutes of the long form: http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/birth-certificate-correspondence.pdf

    All the other documents were on plain paper, while the birth certificate was on security paper. I think that is absolutely key.

  194. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 30, 2013 at 9:33 pm #

    What was your search methodology? How many documents did you examine?

    You might as well get used to the fact that people here are going to expect justifications and evidence for whatever you say. You could save a lot of time by getting into the habit of providing sources and methodology along with any claim you make.

    I do this in my articles, if you haven’t noticed, and I expect no less from others.

    Dionisio Lopez: I meant I did not find similar metadata “fingerprint” on the whitehouse.gov domain. That wasn’t clear.

  195. avatar
    CarlOrcas January 30, 2013 at 9:36 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: I meant I did not find similar metadata “fingerprint” on the whitehouse.gov domain. That wasn’t clear.

    So………….why didn’t you look further….just like the Doctor did?

    Doesn’t the fact that he found examples elsewhere seem to indicate that there is nothing really out of the ordinary with what appeared on the White House website?

  196. avatar
    Scientist January 30, 2013 at 9:41 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: I meant I did not find similar metadata “fingerprint” on the whitehouse.gov domain. That wasn’t clear.

    I bet the birth certificate is the only document on the White House web site printed on security paper. So it wouldn’t surprise anyone if it was processed differenty.

    If I could give an analogy from biochemistry, let’s say I publish a paper where I isolate an enzyme from cow brain. You try to repeat it, and do all the steps correctly, but you start from rat liver. Then it doesn’t work and you wonder why.

  197. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 30, 2013 at 9:41 pm #

    For what’s it’s worth, I skimmed through the Zebest report, and it contain significant factual errors.

    For example, she claims the presence of 1-bit and 8-bit layers proves MRC was not used. This is patently false, since MRC-3 does exactly this, among other things. I stopped reading from there.

    I’m reading Woodman’s material as well.

  198. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 30, 2013 at 9:47 pm #

    The bundle is only “unusual” on the whitehouse.gov domain.

    I did not search all of time, and I did not search the entire internet, as I don’t see the utility in doing so.

    My intention was to get a better picture of the process and equipment used to generate the files.

    I used wget and google (site, filetype).

    CarlOrcas: So………….why didn’t you look further….just like the Doctor did?

    Doesn’t the fact that he found examples elsewhere seem to indicate that there is nothing really out of the ordinary with what appeared on the White House website?

  199. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater January 30, 2013 at 9:48 pm #

    Scientist: I bet the birth certificate is the only document on the White House web site printed on security paper.So it wouldn’t surprise anyone if it was processed differenty.

    If I could give an analogy from biochemistry, let’s say I publish a paper where I isolate an enzyme from cow brain.You try to repeat it, and do all the steps correctly, but you start from rat liver. Then it doesn’t work and you wonder why.

    Wasn’t there a white house file drop reel that we found a while back that had documents the white house had published in PDF format? I remember someone taking the pdfs into illustrator and finding similar results.

  200. avatar
    aesthetocyst January 30, 2013 at 9:50 pm #

    This claim is akin to saying there are no PDFs (assuming by ‘fingerprint’ DL is referring solely to creation tool and environment) on the web created on a Mac in the past several years.

    Yep, need to be more specific to have a prayer of success.

    Hyperbolic claims are a common amateur problem. For instance, the automatic, basic claim of PDF Madness, “[Because this isn't what Granny gets when she scans photos of the grandkids, ] It is impossible to produce a PDF like this by simply scanning a document.”

    I hope DL finds something exciting. It’s sad to see someone chase their tail, but you can’t help them all. PDF Madness was an interesting diversion. I hope he resolves it, as I did.

  201. avatar
    Keith January 30, 2013 at 9:53 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I note that high-end multi-function copy machines can scan to email.

    W. Kevin Vicklund: Not just high-end. I have access to several $200-$500 MFC machines with this function. I’ve never used it, though.

    My 5 year old, sub $150, Brother MFC-5460CN scans to email, PDF, FAX, or hardcopy. I think it even has OCR but I’ve never tried it.

  202. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 30, 2013 at 10:16 pm #

    OK, now you see what we’ve been dealing with for almost 2 years, and no reason to think that you’re just another one.

    Dionisio Lopez: For what’s it’s worth, I skimmed through the Zebest report, and it contain significant factual errors.

  203. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 30, 2013 at 10:22 pm #

    Two things here:

    There are lots of implementation of MRC and I am extremely skeptical of any claim that somebody knows them all and that therefore Obama’s document is fishy.

    Second, the idea of “two scans” if I understand what you’re saying, is utter and completely controversial.

    The argument you’re promising to make, if you ever get around to actually making one, seems to rely on knowledge of the universe of PDF-creating libraries, and I don’t see how you’re going to accomplish that.

    Further let me point out all the examples of birthers coming up with fully refuted theories about the long form PDF, who were convinced by their own confirmation bias, and how powerful that bias is in confounding even experts.

    Dionisio Lopez: * The background layer, with the security paper with form lines, in my opinion is not segmented as I would expect with MRC-3. The text on subsequent layers is grouped as I would expect with MRC-3.

    * The layers in the document, in my opinion, are consistent with being sourced from at least two scans.

    Hopefully, nothing above is too controversial, and I’ll provide a more verbose explanation shortly.

  204. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 30, 2013 at 10:39 pm #

    Let me drop a scenario on you:

    Obama’s attorney is the one who got the original certified copy of the long form birth certificate from Hawaii, and the one who, at the press briefing, held up the original for the Press to see. This is documented. It is certainly credible that Obama’s attorney is the one who scanned the PDF and emailed it to the White House and that the White House staff never even had possession of the certificate. Are you good with that? If that is the case, then Obama’s attorney had to get the file to the White House somehow, and email makes more sense than hand-delivering a flash drive. Someone at the White House opened the Email attachment on a Mac and saved it for the White House web site, and to print copies for the Press. Based on external evidence, is this the most likely scenario?

    I would think that nearly all documents on the White House web site are internally generated and not something they got in emails, and those in email might not be opened and saved, but rather just saved from the email.

    Dionisio Lopez: My intention was to get a better picture of the process and equipment used to generate the files.

    I used wget and google (site, filetype).

  205. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 30, 2013 at 10:58 pm #

    Please explain why you feel that’s controversial?

    If you can provide an example of an MRC/DjVu/ optimized PDF that separates text from form borders with *no* segmentation of that border I would love to see it (also note than in several places, the text overlaps the lines).

    I find it highly unlikely. Like I explained to Mr Brown: If I take a picture of you, and superimpose it on a martian landscape, it’s still a picture of you. I’m sure your friends and family can confirm it is indeed you. Although I cannot be 100% certain, I would still call that picture a forgery.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Two things here:

    There are lots of implementation of MRC and I am extremely skeptical of any claim that somebody knows them all and that therefore Obama’s document is fishy.

    Second, the idea of “two scans” if I understand what you’re saying, is utter and completely controversial.

    The argument you’re promising to make, if you ever get around to actually making one, seems to rely on knowledge of the universe of PDF-creating libraries, and I don’t see how you’re going to accomplish that.

    Further let me point out all the examples of birthers coming up with fully refuted theories about the long form PDF, who were convinced by their own confirmation bias, and how powerful that bias is in confounding even experts.

  206. avatar
    Majority Will January 30, 2013 at 11:08 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez:
    Love it.

    This blog has a reputation for being a cesspool of race-baiters and anonymous cowards. That fine tradition continues.

    Reading through the archive, people like “scientist” (laughable) and those above, ridicule mock, shout down and create vile insults to anyone that does not tow the party line.

    “Dr Conspiracy” shares company with Zullo in that they both lack integrity. Dr. Conspiracy, as a self-described “racist”, obviously suffers cognitive impairment, like all racists do.

    The rest of the zealots come to this blog for mutual masturbation.

    Confirmation bias indeed, LOL.

    Are you sure you, who must be so far above this “cesspool” and its “racist zealots”, can tolerate swilling with the denizens here?

    Are you driven by pity?

  207. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 30, 2013 at 11:39 pm #

    Sorry, no burden of proof shifting allowed. You made the claim that it was uncontroversial. Now prove that no such implementation exists. And I would add that you haven’t defined either the term “overlap” or “segmentation.”

    Dionisio Lopez: If you can provide an example of an MRC/DjVu/ optimized PDF that separates text from form borders with *no* segmentation of that border I would love to see it (also note than in several places, the text overlaps the lines).

  208. avatar
    CarlOrcas January 30, 2013 at 11:49 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: The bundle is only “unusual” on the whitehouse.gov domain.

    So?

    If it’s not “unusual” in the rest of the world just what is your point?

  209. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 30, 2013 at 11:52 pm #

    DC:

    I can’t prove something does not exist.

    You have decided to have *faith* in the integrity of that image.

    Whatever explains the segmentation with the text and border, it’s not ocr, or any mrc varient I’ve ever encountered. Is it possible that it’s an artifact of an automated process? Sure. About as likely as your vacation on Mars.

  210. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 30, 2013 at 11:52 pm #

    I did find another Mac / Quartz /PDFContext file at the White House (just a different Mac OS version):

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/image/gingercrinklesrecipe.pdf

    Given that Obama’s attorney is the only entity known to have had possession of the birth certificate, their possible processing and equipment is probably more relevant than what the White House had. Maybe you should have been looking at documents filed in court cases by Perkins Coe, rather than the White House.

    By the way, there are 13,400 PDF files on the White House web site according to Google.

    Dionisio Lopez: The bundle is only “unusual” on the whitehouse.gov domain.

    I did not search all of time, and I did not search the entire internet, as I don’t see the utility in doing so.

    My intention was to get a better picture of the process and equipment used to generate the files.

  211. avatar
    CarlOrcas January 30, 2013 at 11:53 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: I would still call that picture a forgery.

    Huh? The picture you took is a forgery?

    What is your definition of the word?

  212. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 31, 2013 at 12:15 am #

    Keep in mind that scanners sometimes introduce defects in the image which can be used as a sort of watermark.

    By examining defects in the image and comparing it to artifacts in other, unrelated documents, one could make the assumption that the same scanner was involved in the process – even if the source document is from another domain.

  213. avatar
    justlw January 31, 2013 at 12:19 am #

    Dionisio Lopez: For what’s it’s worth, I skimmed through the Zebest report, and it contain significant factual errors.

    As does Garrett Papit’s analysis.

    As does Tom Harrison’s “white dots” paper.

    However, if you find significant factual errors in John Woodman’s or Frank Arduini’s analyses, I’ll give you a shiny quarter.

    Do you see a pattern here?

  214. avatar
    justlw January 31, 2013 at 12:35 am #

    Dionisio Lopez: If I take a picture of you, and superimpose it on a martian landscape, it’s still a picture of you. I’m sure your friends and family can confirm it is indeed you. Although I cannot be 100% certain, I would still call that picture a forgery.

    In this particular case, we have several other copies of the original picture, and all we really care about is what’s printed on my T-shirt, and in each case, the wording is clear and identical in each copy, and we have affidavits from the T-shirt company, that have stood up in court, testifying that the wording that appears on my T-shirt in the images is identical to the wording on the T-shirt they make.

    And in this particular case, the “Martian landscape” looks no different from the original picture, In fact, all you’re really saying is that the picture looks like an alien landscape, although in reality it was actually taken at Vasquez Rocks (I go there a lot.), which looks “Martiany” to you. Perhaps there are some differences in the color registration, or some other blemishes, compared to other images known to exist, but that’s it.

    What you’re really saying is that some underlying vagary of how the “Martian landscape” picture was printed — maybe the fiber content of the paper — is unfamiliar to you. This is not the same as the picture being a forgery.

  215. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 31, 2013 at 1:16 am #

    I have faith in that image because I have strong evidence that what is says is true, and no credible scenario for anyone faking something that is true. At some point skepticism becomes ludicrous.

    So if you cannot prove that the White House PDF wasn’t a scan of a document using standard equipment and software with no deceptive alteration, then why have you been wasting our time?

    Also your vagueness and non-specificity is maddening.

    Dionisio Lopez: I can’t prove something does not exist.

    You have decided to have *faith* in the integrity of that image.

  216. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 31, 2013 at 1:24 am #

    I don’t think it’s MRC-3.

    Dionisio Lopez: * Most of the compression/artifacts/grouping in the layers, in my opinion, is consistent with MRC-3 (this includes the artifacts that I see with text)

  217. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 31, 2013 at 1:35 am #

    I would prefer that you NOT address the points mentioned heretofore on this thread.

    I would prefer that you state a hypothesis and then use a recognized methodology to prove it, or to go away because I am sick and tired of your preening and puffing, wasting everybody’s time and never committing yourself.

    I’m putting you in moderation to insure that the next comment that appears on this site is something worth reading.

    Dionisio Lopez: Thanks for all the comments above, I will take time to address each one – I should be able to do that this weekend.

  218. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 31, 2013 at 1:36 am #

    Taking the entire birther episode in context: actors, timeline, presentation – The most likely explanation is the long form was altered to remove information.

    Both birth certificates are not evidence of any anything. I agree in that they are irrelevant and not legal documents. They were released for media consumption and to boost public confidence.

    You will never see an Obama birth certificate presented in court. And you will never see Obama holding one.

    That document was created to paint a picture you want to believe, so it serves it’s purpose.

    Cheers,

    –Al.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I have faith in that image because I have strong evidence that what is says is true, and no credible scenario for faking something that is true. At some point skepticism becomes ludicrous.

    So if you cannot prove that the White House PDF wasn’t a scan of a document using standard equipment and software with no deceptive alteration, then why have you been wasting our time?

    Also your vagueness and non-specificity is maddening.

  219. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 31, 2013 at 1:44 am #

    NBC News reporter Savannah Guthrie saw the original certified copy, felt the raised seal, and photographed.

    Sorry, but your story doesn’t hold water. It is ruled out by the facts.

    A birth certificate is not a free form document. It has boxes to be filled in. It can’t have other stuff that somehow appears in free space that could be removed. It can’t have been stamped DELAYED or LATE because of the date it was signed. It can’t be ALTERED or AMENDED because, again, it has the original signatures dated in 1961. What are the blank spaces on the White House PDF that could have been removed?

    Mother’s Mailing Address
    Mother Date Last worked
    Evidence for Late Filing or Alteration

    The first two are harmless and the third is ruled out. Further a blank item is still information. If Obama block 23 is blank and the “real certificate” had something in it, then the information wouldn’t match, but the State of Hawaii said it did match.

    You may not have seen Obama holding up the form, but the White House press corps saw his attorney holding up one. You’ll never see it (most likely) in court because birthers will never get standing to have a trial.

    And for the record, I had determined that birthers were insane before I knew anything about Obama or had any preference for him as a candidate.

    Dionisio Lopez: Taking the entire birther episode in context: actors, timeline, presentation – The most likely explanation is the long form was altered to remove information.

    …You will never see an Obama birth certificate presented in court. And you will never see Obama holding one….

    That document was created to paint a picture you want to believe, so it serves it’s purpose.

  220. avatar
    Dionisio Lopez January 31, 2013 at 1:57 am #

    I welcome you and readers re-assert or proclaim your faith in the integrity of the internet birth certificate images.

    I hope you will keep this thread for posterity.

    Cheers,

    –Al.

  221. avatar
    aesthetocyst January 31, 2013 at 2:00 am #

    Dionisio Lopez:
    Taking the entire birther episode in context: actors, timeline, presentation – The most likely explanation is the long form was altered to remove information.

    Both birth certificates are not evidence of any anything. I agree in that they are irrelevant and not legal documents. They were released for media consumption and to boost public confidence.

    You will never see an Obama birth certificate presented in court. And you will never see Obama holding one.

    That document was created to paint a picture you want to believe, so it serves it’s purpose.

    Cheers,

    –Al.

    After all that, he finally gets to a hypothesis, a great big birf. Surprise!
    At least he displayed some technical ability. Along with a heaping help of the disingenuous. I have enough of the disingenuous for several lifetimes.

    I was going to address some of his concerns regarding “segmentation” (he’s noticed something that escapes most sufferers of PDF Madness, but doesn’t understand (willfully?) what he’s seeing. ) … but now that’s he’s doubled down on his bias, it’d be pointless.

    He never did address the existence of other images of the document, that read the same, that did not come from the PDF. Hard to explain that without going deeper down the forgery/conspiracy hole.

    Doc, you are amazingly patient as always.

  222. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 31, 2013 at 2:14 am #

    Or amazingly gullible. Take your pick.

    aesthetocyst: Doc, you are amazingly patient as always.

  223. avatar
    aesthetocyst January 31, 2013 at 2:22 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Or amazingly gullible. Take your pick.

    Got to give people the benefit of the doubt. And you do, and demonstrate it consistently, even with those who can’t appreciate it. Very rational, charitable, Christlike even.

    Got to have faith in humanity. Giving in on that front goes to dark, pessimistic, paranoid places!

  224. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 31, 2013 at 2:25 am #

    Jesus said: “Be wise as serpents and as innocent as doves.”

    aesthetocyst: Got to give people the benefit of the doubt. And you do, and demonstrate it consistently, even with those who can’t appreciate it. Very rational, charitable, Christlike even.

  225. avatar
    Majority Will January 31, 2013 at 6:39 am #

    Another birther promoting FUD? How droll.

    Gee willikers! I wonder what magic, secret keyword was omitted that triggers “civil unrest”?

  226. avatar
    Thomas Brown January 31, 2013 at 9:14 am #

    I figured “Dionisio” wouldn’t be man enough to admit he was mistaken.

  227. avatar
    Arthur January 31, 2013 at 9:34 am #

    Thomas Brown: I figured “Dionisio” wouldn’t be man enough to admit he was mistaken.

    When Lopez was chatting with Lucas Smith, this is how he characterized his experience here:

    “My opinion of the long form was not received very well at Dr. Conspiracy’s blog (I didn’t expect it to be).

    “Folks over there *know* the long form is fake, they keep insisting that it’s irrelevant, and all that matters is that the *information* matches (according to Hawaii).”

    http://www.wasobamaborninkenya.com/blog/barrack-obama-eligibility/i-was-on-the-stool-tonight-and-i-thought-of-dr-conspiracy-and-his-reprehensible-and-foul-smelling-website/#comments

    Dionisio may have a lot of weaknesses, but lying isn’t one of them.

  228. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater January 31, 2013 at 10:12 am #

    Arthur: When Lopez was chatting with Lucas Smith, this is how he characterized his experience here: “My opinion of the long form was not received very well at Dr. Conspiracy’s blog (I didn’t expect it to be).“Folks over there *know* the long form is fake, they keep insisting that it’s irrelevant, and all that matters is that the *information* matches (according to Hawaii).”http://www.wasobamaborninkenya.com/blog/barrack-obama-eligibility/i-was-on-the-stool-tonight-and-i-thought-of-dr-conspiracy-and-his-reprehensible-and-foul-smelling-website/#commentsDionisio may have a lot of weaknesses, but lying isn’t one of them.

    No big suprise there. Mr Lopez is a typical birther “expert” troll. Comes in here pretending to have credentials more than he has, gets pounded, spouts nonsense then goes running off to a convicted felon to whine about how mean we were to him.

  229. avatar
    Reality Check January 31, 2013 at 10:34 am #

    You think there was ever any doubt?

    Dionisio Lopez: I welcome you and readers re-assert or proclaim your faith in the integrity of the internet birth certificate images.

  230. avatar
    The Magic M January 31, 2013 at 11:02 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Further a blank item is still information. If Obama block 23 is blank and the “real certificate” had something in it, then the information wouldn’t match, but the State of Hawaii said it did match.

    Which is why birthers have to twist logic into a pretzel to claim that when Hawaii said “matches”, they were only referring to what was on the PDF and on the vault BC but not to what was not on the PDF but on the vault BC. As if “matches” was somehow a one-directional statement. A matches B (because it contains less but matching information), but B does not match A (because it contains more non-matching information). Grasping at straws.

    Dr. Conspiracy: You may not have seen Obama holding up the form

    I think that specific birther claim is another Catch-22. If Obama doesn’t hold it, it’s “because of plausible deniability”. If he does hold it, it’s “he switched the real Hawaiian documents with his forgery”.
    Which is why I’ve stopped debating issues with birthers that end up in such a “heads I win, tails you lose” situation.

  231. avatar
    roadburner January 31, 2013 at 11:03 am #

    Dionisio Lopez: I welcome you and readers re-assert or proclaim your faith in the integrity of the internet birth certificate images.I hope you will keep this thread for posterity.Cheers,–Al.

    you seem to be letting this point fly over your head every time.

    the information (verified by the hawaii DOH) on the WH PDF of the LFBC copy is valid, and is INFORMATION.

    the WH PDF is an IMAGE of the LFBC copy posted on the WH website for the purposes of INFORMATION.

    the WH PDF is not a legal document, it is purely a 2-D image posted for the benefit of those who have an interest.

    the reality is it makes no difference if you can make it turn pink, change to germanic script and dance a salsa, it is purely an online image posted for the purpose of information. it is not a legal document.

    quite simple really, and just understanding that could save you so much effort and embarrasment later.

  232. avatar
    Yoda January 31, 2013 at 12:13 pm #

    I take the position that birthers exist in my world for entertainment purposes only. Birthers have no sense of morals or decency. They have reading comprehension problems, no understanding of logic or reason. They show an incredible lack of ability to learn from their mistakes. And they are funny as all get out. But there is no point in talking to them.

  233. avatar
    Keith January 31, 2013 at 12:53 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: Both birth certificates are not evidence of any anything. I agree in that they are irrelevant and not legal documents. They were released for media consumption and to boost public confidence.

    NO DAMMIT!!!

    The birth certificates ARE legally relevant.

    The IMAGES of the birth certificates are not legally relevant.

    What is so f’ing hard about that distinction?

  234. avatar
    J.D. Sue January 31, 2013 at 12:58 pm #

    Keith: The birth certificates ARE legally relevant.
    The IMAGES of the birth certificates are not legally relevant.

    They refuse to understand this because they are determined to misapprehend everything.

  235. avatar
    roadburner January 31, 2013 at 1:14 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez: Both birth certificates are not evidence of any anything. I agree in that they are irrelevant and not legal documents. They were released for media consumption and to boost public confidence.

    what part of the full faith and credit clause of the constitution are you failing to grasp?

    just curious like……….

  236. avatar
    SluggoJD January 31, 2013 at 3:16 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez:
    Taking the entire birther episode in context: actors, timeline, presentation – The most likely explanation is the long form was altered to remove information.

    Both birth certificates are not evidence of any anything. I agree in that they are irrelevant and not legal documents. They were released for media consumption and to boost public confidence.

    You will never see an Obama birth certificate presented in court. And you will never see Obama holding one.

    That document was created to paint a picture you want to believe, so it serves it’s purpose.

    Cheers,

    –Al.

    No.

    Reality is something you can’t stand, so you lie and deceive to make yourself feel better.

    It must really suck to be like you.

  237. avatar
    AlCum January 31, 2013 at 8:29 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez:
    Taking the entire birther episode in context: actors, timeline, presentation – The most likely explanation is the long form was altered to remove information.

    Both birth certificates are not evidence of any anything. I agree in that they are irrelevant and not legal documents. They were released for media consumption and to boost public confidence.

    You will never see an Obama birth certificate presented in court. And you will never see Obama holding one.

    That document was created to paint a picture you want to believe, so it serves it’s purpose.

    Cheers,

    –Al.

    You are completely incorrect. Both birth certificates prove Obama is a natural born citizen. You won’t see any court ruling on it does not need to rule on any question. It is moot.

  238. avatar
    AlCum January 31, 2013 at 8:32 pm #

    Dionisio Lopez:
    I welcome you and readers re-assert or proclaim your faith in the integrity of the internet birth certificate images.

    I hope you will keep this thread for posterity.

    Cheers,

    –Al.

    There is no need for any faith. Hawaii has certified it, and has done it officially on several occasions and publicly on others. That is controlling. The case is closed on this.

  239. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater January 31, 2013 at 9:05 pm #

    Looks like our troll has been a busy boy here he is over at Orly’s
    http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/?p=382144

    Dionisio Lopez:
    The picture is emerging that, when applying to Occidental in 1979/1980 – for whatever reason – Obama could not produce a birth certificate for the application process. This is probably why Trump called Obama out on his Occidental College Application. I would not be surprised if this was already obtained by Trump. University records “security” is notoriously non-existent.
    The fact that the Bounel SSN is listed as being assigned during this time is strong circumstantial evidence.
    The fact that the name Bounel is ALSO associated with known Obama residences is strong circumstantial evidence.
    The fact that Michelle Obama was listed in public records as being married to Bounel is strong circumstantial evidence.
    The fact the the explanations from Team Obama for the Bounel SSN have repeatedly changed as new evidence is presented is strong circumstantial evidence.
    We are now required to exhibit an extraordinary suspension of disbelief to accept the illogical, and non-nonsensical explanations for how Obama wound up with an illegal SSN (according to US Code and SSA regulations).
    Almost any other Citizen would face criminal charged based on the evidence available in the public domain.
    Remember, “Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the Government, yet illegal for a Citizen”
    ~George Washington

  240. avatar
    Arthur January 31, 2013 at 9:16 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: our troll has been a busy boy

    First Lucas Smith and now Orly Taitz–Lopez is quite a champ. By the way, I very much doubt Occidental required a birth certificate for their application process. I didn’t need one for undergrad or grad school, and the college where I work doesn’t require one. High school transcripts are sufficient.

  241. avatar
    AlCum January 31, 2013 at 9:28 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater:
    Looks like our troll has been a busy boy here he is over at Orly’s
    http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/?p=382144
    Remember, “Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the Government, yet illegal for a Citizen”
    ~George Washington

    It should surprise no one here that his claimed quote from George Washington that “Remember, “Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the Government, yet illegal for a Citizen” is, ironically, a complete fabrication itself!!

  242. avatar
    Rickey January 31, 2013 at 9:41 pm #

    AlCum: It should surprise no one here that his claimed quote from George Washington that “Remember, “Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the Government, yet illegal for a Citizen” is, ironically, a complete fabrication itself!!

    That quote has also been attributed to Jefferson. Monticello.org has researched it and can find no evidence that Jefferson ever wrote it.

    http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/tyranny-defined-which-legal-government-quotation

  243. avatar
    aesthetocyst February 1, 2013 at 12:09 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: Dionisio Lopez:
    The picture is emerging that, when applying to Occidental in 1979/1980 – for whatever reason – Obama could not produce a birth certificate for the application process.

    It’s been awhile … but I don’t recall producing a BC when applying to University either. Is my citizenship in question, or did I get a medical pass in consideration of my melanin deficiency?

    I still have the original copy of my BC. It must be the loneliest document in my house. Old bills are pulled out far more often for reference. After elementary school and little league enrollments, they aren’t good for much.

    Outside of Birfistan at least.

  244. avatar
    Majority Will February 1, 2013 at 3:54 am #

    AlCum: It should surprise no one here that his claimed quote from George Washington that “Remember, “Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the Government, yet illegal for a Citizen” is, ironically, a complete fabrication itself!!

    And to blow more irony meters, a fabrication with the intent to deceive is known as forgery.

    A complete birther bigot is a liar and a hypocrite.

  245. avatar
    Scientist February 1, 2013 at 7:24 am #

    Arthur: By the way, I very much doubt Occidental required a birth certificate for their application process. I didn’t need one for undergrad or grad school, and the college where I work doesn’t require one. High school transcripts are sufficient.

    Makes one wonder if Lopez ever attended a university himself. Or if he even exists.

    Will the poster idenitifying as Dionisio Lopez be man enough to come here and defend himself against these serious charges?

  246. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 1, 2013 at 7:59 am #

    Well, since I’ve told him to go away unless he is going to present a clear thesis and defend it, instead of throwing sand, I’ve said that I won’t let him engage in the kind of discussion you mention. So no, he won’t.

    Scientist: Will the poster identifying as Dionisio Lopez be man enough to come here and defend himself against these serious charges

  247. avatar
    American Mzungu February 1, 2013 at 8:22 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Well, since I’ve told him to go away unless he is going to present a clear thesis and defend it, instead of throwing sand,

    But if he does appear with argument to defend a thesis, you could then rename the thread:

    DIONISIO LOPEZ: Secret Evidence Will Convince Skeptics

  248. avatar
    Thomas Brown February 1, 2013 at 9:57 am #

    I’m preparing a longer response to Doc’s brilliant metaphor of Birther memes as viruses. For now I’ll just say as regards “Dionisio” and other trolls:

    What they’re doing here is like distributing blankets infected with small pox and other pathogens. They think some of us might be infected by the pseudo-facts they spew.

    But the joke’s on them because nobody here is going to succumb to the viruses, as we have the immunity conferred by solid information and decent reasoning skills.

  249. avatar
    Someone February 1, 2013 at 10:23 am #

    Never mind that it doesn’t even sound like George Washington, someone who himself put down the Whiskey Rebellion (a tax protest), it’s not even a good or meaningful definition of tyranny.

    Dionisio Lopez: Remember, “Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the Government, yet illegal for a Citizen”

  250. avatar
    Arthur February 1, 2013 at 10:53 am #

    Someone: Never mind that it doesn’t even sound like George Washington,

    Nor does it sound like Thomas Jefferson, to whom it is also frequently attributed. Here’s the debunking from a Jefferson website:

    http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/tyranny-defined-which-legal-government-quotation

  251. avatar
    Someone February 1, 2013 at 11:23 am #

    True enough, no Jefferson there. I myself, though, am not as concerned with misattribution of quotes in the birther universe. It isn’t just a birther phenomenon. It happens all the time. People misattribute quotes and sayings constantly. I myself am more nonplussed by the fact that the definition is silly. By that definition, every form of government ever, past and future, is a tyranny.

    Arthur: Nor does it sound like Thomas Jefferson, to whom it is also frequently attributed.

  252. avatar
    Bovril February 1, 2013 at 11:24 am #

    Thomas Brown: I’m preparing a longer response to Doc’s brilliant metaphor of Birther memes as viruses. For now I’ll just say as regards “Dionisio” and other trolls:

    What they’re doing here is like distributing blankets infected with small pox and other pathogens. They think some of us might be infected by the pseudo-facts they spew.

    But the joke’s on them because nobody here is going to succumb to the viruses, as we have the immunity conferred by solid information and decent reasoning skills.

    Just saying…. 8-)

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/01/what-is-the-birther-movement/#comment-149269

    The problem (one of many) with labelling and categorizing the peristaltic motion of Birferism is that it has many of the characteristics of a virus, a parasite and a cancer cell.

    In addition to the “virtual cult” that G, Slarti and I have posited previously it also

    Spreads via infection through a susceptible population

    The Internet being the transmission vector, the lamentable education system being the root cause of susceptibility to idiotic memes, the media such as Fox being the underpinning infection weakening the host allowing opportunistic Birfoon viral infection

    Compromises the intellectual immune system

    A strong immune response through critical thinking, analysis, ability to compare and contrast and openness to fresh and clean information has been critically compromised. This allows the infection to spread and embed itself in carriers, such as the Orly Screech Owl as well as fatally infect and destroy the weak minded such as the Lakin Prison Bird.

    Hijacks a hosts immune system

    The infective meme embeds itself in existing structures such as racism, right wing politics, entitlement, fear and loathing and attempts to mask its underlying symptoms in high sounding morality whilst actually demonstrating and amplifying the pathologies

    Mutates in response to environmental adversity

    The Birfoon infection, when a host population starts to attempt to fight the spread of infection via isolation of the infected and destruction of its raw genetic material mutates in order to survive. The early infections labelled, Kenyan Fever, Mobassa Flu and Mooslem Rash have mostly died out having been replaced by new mutated forms including Commie Cramps, Alinsky Ache and the latest and most virulent, Vattels Failed Syndrome. Ocassionally fresh, isolated and immune suppressed groups migrate to the plains where the old weaker infections will spring up, they are usually destroyed in a short period of times.

    Masquerading as a legitimate part of the organism, auto-immune suppresion

    A frequent response by the infection, to ensure its survival to propagate further, is to attempt to trick the host body by cloaking its disease through masking. The infection will attempt to cloak itself in otherwise benign system cells such as Patriotism, Concern, Just Asking and Fiscal Rectitude. Unfortunately the infection tends to cause these cells to lose their natural governing mechanism and the cellular apoptosis fails to kick in. This leads to a massive and unchecked explosion of unmanaged cellular reproduction. This cancer will continue to spread and will lead to the host being choked in its own waste as well as leading to catastrophic failure in vital organs. See Governance Failure Syndrome, Congressional Cancer, Bi-Partisan Decay.

    Parasitic modification> of neural responses

    In the same manner that certain infection and diseases modify a hosts natural habits and responses (See rabies and hyrdophobia et-al) the Birfoon Infection exhibits some or more of this selection of symptoms.

    Isolation from healthy individuals
    Aggression and paranoia
    Inability to form coherent responses around the meme
    Selective mutism and autism
    Incoherence
    Natural attraction to the similar infected
    Flocking and pack behaviour
    Self mutilation
    Coprophilia and Coprophagia
    Insensate destruction of an individuals personal resources and habitat
    Repetitive unconstructive behaviour

    A central symptom appears to be

    Magpie Syndrome

    An irrational affinity for shiny objects. When a highly shiny object is seen by the sufferer it often may induce a compulsive need to claim it and several minutes of staring at said object. This will later end in the sufferer pocketing the object to add to his/ her collection by a sunny windowsill at home. If a shiny object is outside of a sufferers grasp it will usually result in a strong, though usually short-live obsession over it.

    In my next paper we will discuss the palliative, disinfective and other treament methods….
    8-)

  253. avatar
    Thomas Brown February 1, 2013 at 11:30 am #

    Bovril: Just saying….

    Dang! You’ve already written most of what I had in mind.

    Kudos! And very very funny, as well.

  254. avatar
    Bovril February 1, 2013 at 11:46 am #

    I also tried to provide a taxonomy of Birfoons as well…….

    A taxonomy of the clades of Birthers

    A viable democratic state (yes Birfoons I know the US is a republic. it’s still one of the forms of democracy) needs to have dissent and opposing views.

    Unfortunately the freedoms of a democracy mean that the mad and the bad still get to play and piss in the pool.

    I break the Birfoons into roughly 4 buckets

    Fellow travellers, or “birther curious”

    These are the folks who for whatever reasons feel that there must be SOMETHING at the bottom of all the loud and insane hoopla but don’t actually feel it is a critical issue. They are basically Republican and Independants but will vote their pocket books come the presidential election. The whole Birther thing makes them a little MORE suspicious of Obama but would recoil in horror from the Danae/BZ mob. May have read bits of Corsi’s books

    The PBI (Poor Bloody Infantry)

    These are the hard core birthers, the foot soldiers and ALL CAPS posters. The idea of Obama as an illegitimate candidate and Usurper falls straight in with their general hate for the Other, the Marxist/Commie/Socialist/DemonCrat.

    Bigots by nature, racist by inclination at the very least and will latch onto any idea, no matter how insincere and inconsistent that support their world view. Never voted Democrat, proud of it, never will vote Democrat and calling someone a “Progressive” is (in their minds) a deadly insult.

    These are the the ones that think Orly and Dean and Mario are patriotic hero’s but there is major schisms between the varying faiths only bound by hate for the uppity black Demoncrat in OUR WHITE HOSUE !!Q!@!!!R$^&*

    These are the “No Nonsense Nancy”, Lakinista’s, RacerJim, Red Steels of Internet fame

    Main drivers are hate and fear

    The Mad

    Well, Orly, BZ, Dr K(H)ate epitomise this clade of the Birfer Bunch. They not only latch onto every single new (and old) meme or piece of BS that floats, frothy to the surface like ripe Santorum, they MAKE the memes, the wholly believe the memes and it infests and infects all parts of their real lives.

    These people may not only be one of..narcissists, delusional, sociopathic, racist, self harming, isolationist and generally barking mad, they usually are most if not all of them.

    They have a well documented pattern of estrangement from family and friends, self destructive behaviour, OCD like activity in support of their views, packrat hoarding of irrelevant data minutae along with a magpies desire for the shiny-shiny. They are consumed by their hate and activities and there is a strong self absorbed ME ME ME need for attention and validation. Cannot accept criticism of any part, no matter how small, of their data set and mind state. Paranoid and delusional, convinced that they are a major player and self appointed guardian of what is RIGHT (politically as well as morally). Convinced rules are for others and any requirement that they have to adhere to these rational norms is a direct attack…Cult like behaviour (see Virtual Cult passim).

    The Bad…The Carpet-Baggers

    The cynical war mongers and opportunistic scavengers epitomised by the Birfer Bux Carpet- Baggers like Dean, Corsi, Farah, Arpaio, Trump et-al

    Most of them see this as a way to expolit the gullible and stupid for gain, be it for The Precious PayPal, for attention to feed an overweening ego, for political purposes or some or all of the above.

    They see the Birthers as sheep or a cash cow to be harvested and fleeced to feed their personal and political needs.

    This is also tied into a plain and obvious hate and envy for someone who is demonstrably more important, sucessful and relevant than they can ever be and there is a substantial amount of bigotry and political hate bound into their own perceived self worth.

    In some ways these are the most detestable of the 4 Klans, pure bottom feeding vermin with neither principles or morals and a taste for carrion.

    ===================================================================

    I trust these are of interest……

  255. avatar
    Arthur February 1, 2013 at 12:01 pm #

    Someone: By that definition, every form of government ever, past and future, is a tyranny.

    Indeed. Which is why I suspect it was penned by a radical libertarian or sovereign citizen.

  256. avatar
    Northland10 February 1, 2013 at 1:05 pm #

    Thomas Brown:
    I’m preparing a longer response to Doc’s brilliant metaphor of Birther memes as viruses.For now I’ll just say as regards “Dionisio” and other trolls:

    What they’re doing here is like distributing blankets infected with small pox and other pathogens.They think some of us might be infected by the pseudo-facts they spew.

    But the joke’s on them because nobody here is going to succumb to the viruses, as we have the immunity conferred by solid information and decent reasoning skills.

    Like a teacher, many of us have been around the birthers for a while so we have developed a stronger immunity to the viruses.

  257. avatar
    SluggoJD February 1, 2013 at 3:42 pm #

    Thomas Brown: Dang!You’ve already written most of what I had in mind.

    Kudos!And very very funny, as well.

    Yeah, that was really good lol.

  258. avatar
    bovril February 1, 2013 at 5:38 pm #

    We aims to please we do….. 😃

  259. avatar
    Keith February 1, 2013 at 5:45 pm #

    Thomas Brown: What they’re doing here is like distributing blankets infected with small pox and other pathogens. They think some of us might be infected by the pseudo-facts they spew.

    Very effective way of putting it.

  260. avatar
    Reality Check February 2, 2013 at 4:43 pm #

    I have a new blog post up about Mark Gillar’s latest claim that a smudge or a tick mark proves the LFBC is forged. It is funny that Gillar tries to use the Savannah Guthrie photo to prove the LFBC is fake while Mara Zebest claims the Guthrie photo is fake. They need to coordinate their lies better.

    My reply to Mark Gillar’s latest silly claims

  261. avatar
    gorefan February 2, 2013 at 9:12 pm #

    Reality Check: They need to coordinate their lies better.

    Zebest says the LFBC pdf was made in Photoshop and there was no original scanned document. Gellar says there was an original scanned document that had smudges on it.

    I guess they figure that covers all the bases.

  262. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater February 2, 2013 at 10:30 pm #

    gorefan: Zebest says the LFBC pdf was made in Photoshop and there was no original scanned document.Gellar says there was an original scanned document that had smudges on it.

    I guess they figure that covers all the bases.

    Zebest also makes the claim that it couldn’t be MRC because it would show up in the coding. She’s so full of shit

  263. avatar
    GLaB February 3, 2013 at 1:26 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    NBC News reporter Savannah Guthrie saw the original certified copy, felt the raised seal, and photographed.

    You may not have seen Obama holding up the form, but the White House press corps saw his attorney holding up one. You’ll never see it (most likely) in court because birthers will never get standing to have a trial.

    I would bet that we’ll all see both the long and the short of the BCs in a few years – under glass in the Obama presidential library. You just know it’s going to happen, don’t you?

  264. avatar
    gorefan February 3, 2013 at 12:11 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: Zebest also makes the claim that it couldn’t be MRC because it would show up in the coding. She’s so full of shit

    And she claims that any file that has undergone MRC compression produces a warning message when open in Adobe Illustrator. What a moron.

  265. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater February 3, 2013 at 4:04 pm #

    gorefan: And she claims that any file that has undergone MRC compression produces a warning message when open in Adobe Illustrator.What a moron.

    Yep both her and mark gillar said that then told me I had to find one that didn’t produce a warning.

  266. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 3, 2013 at 8:08 pm #

    Uhhh, what did the warning supposedly say?

    Of course it’s silly. Adobe Acrobat for several versions now uses MRC compression when you scan a document type. There aren’t any warning messages.

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: Yep both her and mark gillar said that then told me I had to find one that didn’t produce a warning.

  267. avatar
    aesthetocyst February 3, 2013 at 8:13 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: Yep both her and mark gillar said that then told me I had to find one that didn’t produce a warning.

    Well, that’s easily done, if you care to do a demo for them. I’ve never bothered to post any proofs or domenostrations as the time would be completely wasted on the birthers. Not interested in truth, only in furthering their denial. Any demonstration will be twisted by them, and allow them to add more faux sophistication to their obfuscations. They’d say it wasn’t the ‘right’ MRC, wrong version of illustrator, or God knows what … probabkly that it obviously wasn’t true MRC as there was no warning produced LOL.

    gorefan: And she claims that any file that has undergone MRC compression produces a warning message when open in Adobe Illustrator. What a moron.

    Man, I got to know …. what does this warning dialog supposedly say? What are the ‘consequences’ the user is being cautioned about?

    Yes, she is a moron. The only warning I could think of would be if the file was in a format Illustrator couldn’t parse. But what does a compression model have to do with file type or file integrity? Not a thing.

  268. avatar
    Northland10 February 3, 2013 at 8:22 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Man, I got to know …. what does this warning dialog supposedly say? What are the ‘consequences’ the user is being cautioned about?

    Though I don’t know for sure, E-How does mention a possible warning when importing PDF into Illustrator:

    Click “OK.” If the “Acrobat PDF: Import Warning” window appears, click “OK.” Illustrator places the PDF page in the project. The results of the import will depend on the objects embedded in the PDF and if Illustrator can interpret them correctly.

    Importing items, even withing products made by the same company, is an imperfect science.

  269. avatar
    aesthetocyst February 3, 2013 at 8:50 pm #

    Northland10: E-How does mention a possible warning when importing PDF into Illustrator:

    That dialog pops up when ANY multi-page PDF is opened in any vector editor, as vector editor don’t support multiple page documents. It isn’t a warning, the application is simply requesting clarification…”which page do you want me to open?” Quite helpful, really.

    Again, this effects all PDFs, has nothing to do with how the PDF is encode, compressed, structured, other than its number of pages. 1-page, no dialog; more than 1, dialog.

  270. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater February 3, 2013 at 8:54 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Uhhh, what did the warning supposedly say?

    Of course it’s silly. Adobe Acrobat for several versions now uses MRC compression when you scan a document type. There aren’t any warning messages.

    That’s the problem they never say what the dialog box says. I got banned from gillars YouTube videos before I got a chance to ask

  271. avatar
    Daniel February 3, 2013 at 9:11 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: That’s the problem they never say what the dialog box says.I got banned from gillars YouTube videos before I got a chance to ask

    Probably sounds a lot like this

  272. avatar
    Keith February 4, 2013 at 1:56 am #

    Daniel: Probably sounds a lot like this

    That ‘waveform’ redirects to an advert of some sort. Dunno whether it is malign or not. I’ll tell you if my computer goes to shit.

  273. avatar
    gorefan February 4, 2013 at 12:16 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Uhhh, what did the warning supposedly say?

    aesthetocyst: Man, I got to know …. what does this warning dialog supposedly say? What are the ‘consequences’ the user is being cautioned about?

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: That’s the problem they never say what the dialog box says.

    It’s from Zebest’s July, 2012 report – page 12:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/100338183/NEW-Barack-Obama-s-Forged-LFBC-Report-By-Mara-Zebest-July-18th-2012

    “MRC has a tendency to generate a warning message seen in Figure 33 whenever the file is opened in Illustrator.”

    And the message box from Figure 33:

    “The document has PDF objects that have been reinterpreted.”

    “An unknown imaging construct was encountered.”

    But this may be the “construct” they are talking about:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGZiLMGdCE0

  274. avatar
    aesthetocyst February 4, 2013 at 12:43 pm #

    gorefan: “The document has PDF objects that have been reinterpreted.”

    “An unknown imaging construct was encountered.”

    Considering that MRC is an outline, that has been implemented in uncounted flavors, an MRC PDF just might do that, depending on the actual image file types used. The couple MRC implementation I am familiar with use extremely common compression schemes, and trip no wires when opening in any vector editor.

    That said, her ‘warning’ could be caused by any kind of PDF, and has nothing to do with MRC.

    What was I expecting? ” ACHTUNG: MRC AHEAD !!!” ? Heh.

  275. avatar
    G February 5, 2013 at 10:36 pm #

    Bravo! It was good to see you restate both of these excellent breakdowns of the Birther Virus and its carrier types. These are the types of root-cause analysis and introspection on this whole peculiar insipid RWNJ phenomenon that draws me back into caring about paying attention to this particular “hobby” again…

    The Birthers themselves have become such lame, repetitive, overly predictable sore-loser boors by now, that I can barely listen to their stupid ideas and regurgitated blather anymore without yawning and rolling my eyes at their infantile inanity.

    But then I’m reminded about the insightful articles and commentary from both the blog owner here and the wonderfully diverse and intelligent community here…and that alone is worthy of me trying to find the time again to come back and visit…regardless of how pathetic and hopeless the actual Birthers themselves are…

    Bovril: Just saying….
    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/01/what-is-the-birther-movement/#comment-149269

    Bovril: I also tried to provide a taxonomy of Birfoons as well…….

    A taxonomy of the clades of Birthers

    A viable democratic state (yes Birfoons I know the US is a republic. it’s still one of the forms of democracy) needs to have dissent and opposing views.

    Unfortunately the freedoms of a democracy mean that the mad and the bad still get to play and piss in the pool.

    I break the Birfoons into roughly 4 buckets

333333 44444
5555555
6666666