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The last birther standing?

It’s been a while since my last reader poll. The question: who will be the last birther standing? That is, who will still be actively promoting birtherism when the others have moved on or passed on?

Who will be the last birther standing?

  • Orly Taitz (62%, 81 Votes)
  • Butterdezillion (12%, 15 Votes)
  • Rudy (Lonestar1776) (8%, 11 Votes)
  • ORYR host (5%, 6 Votes)
  • Theresa Cao (4%, 5 Votes)
  • Dr. Kate (2%, 2 Votes)
  • James D. Manning (2%, 2 Votes)
  • Jerome Corsi (2%, 2 Votes)
  • Terry Lakin (1%, 1 Votes)
  • Tracy Fair (1%, 1 Votes)
  • Mark Gillar (1%, 1 Votes)
  • Mario Apuzzo (1%, 1 Votes)
  • Al Hendershot (1%, 1 Votes)
  • Christopher-Earl: Strunk (1%, 1 Votes)
  • Chalice Jackson (0%, 0 Votes)
  • Charles Kerchner (0%, 0 Votes)
  • Susan Daniels (0%, 0 Votes)
  • Linda Jordan (0%, 0 Votes)
  • Sharon Rondeau (0%, 0 Votes)
  • Bob Gard (0%, 0 Votes)
  • Mike Zullo (0%, 0 Votes)
  • Paul Irey (0%, 0 Votes)
  • Walter Fitzpatrick (0%, 0 Votes)

Total Voters: 130

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58 Responses to The last birther standing?

  1. avatar
    donna March 2, 2013 at 4:53 pm #

    before commenting, am i correct in assuming that there will be no birther lawsuits against rubio, jindal & cruz?

  2. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG March 2, 2013 at 5:02 pm #

    Orly Taitz of course.
    She won’t stop until she is deported.

  3. avatar
    Bill DuBerger March 2, 2013 at 5:18 pm #

    Corsi… as long as there are books to sell.

  4. avatar
    richCares March 2, 2013 at 5:49 pm #

    Orly may or may not be the last birther standing, but her foul mouth makes her the nastiest

  5. avatar
    Paul March 2, 2013 at 5:51 pm #

    Oily, hands down

  6. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG March 2, 2013 at 5:57 pm #

    richCares:
    Orly may or may not be the last birther standing, but her foul mouth makes her the nastiest

    She ranks right up there with the Westboro folks.

  7. avatar
    Kiwiwriter March 2, 2013 at 6:07 pm #

    Orly Taitz.

    Her whole life is about hounding Obama.

  8. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 2, 2013 at 6:07 pm #

    I think Corsi’s already done—it was never about selling books to him (in my opinion), it was about smearing President Obama and hurting his electoral chances. I don’t think he’s done any serious birfing since the election. As for Orly, I don’t think she’ll stop on her own. Ever. The question is, will she be stopped? She’s certainly the birther most likely to win, for instance, crippling sanctions. The question is will any other birther still be left when the obot’s “any day now” comes?

    Bill DuBerger:
    Corsi… as long as there are books to sell.

  9. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 2, 2013 at 6:17 pm #

    Mario should be added to the poll—I don’t think he’s folded up his tents yet… You could also add Butter and drk(H)ate and Chalice Jackson to the list.

  10. avatar
    American Mzungu March 2, 2013 at 6:18 pm #

    I see Bob (obobma) Gard lasting for a trilogy of e-books.

    Theresa (Holy) Cao has the wings of an angel, and a reserved place in front of the White House. Nuttiness is hard to exhaust.

    However, for real lasting power I’d put money on Butterdezillion. She’s a keyboard warrior, which is more economical of money and energy than legal or publishing craziness. She also has the creative energy to incoporate new information into ever-expanding unified field conspiracy theories.

  11. avatar
    G March 2, 2013 at 6:33 pm #

    I agree with you about both Orly & Corsi and with American Mzungu in regards to Crazy Cau and Nutty Butter…

    So yeah, Corsi was just a kook scam artist…he’s pretty much going to move on to some other scam attack.

    But truly insane folks such as Orly, Cau and Butter… heck, there is no “off” switch with them. They’ll keep going, fail after fail after fail, until their own unhealthy paranoia and insanity causes either health or legal actions to intervene in their ability to continue… regardless, I see nothing but a life of bitter futility and obsessive wrongheadedness for those three and their type of ilk. I’d throw Tracy Fair on that list too.

    Slartibartfast:
    I think Corsi’s already done—it was never about selling books to him (in my opinion), it was about smearing President Obama and hurting his electoral chances.I don’t think he’s done any serious birfing since the election.As for Orly, I don’t think she’ll stop on her own.Ever.The question is, will she be stopped?She’s certainly the birther most likely to win, for instance, crippling sanctions.The question is will any other birther still be left when the obot’s “any day now” comes?

    American Mzungu:
    I see Bob (obobma) Gard lasting for a trilogy of e-books.

    Theresa (Holy) Cao has the wings of an angel, and a reserved place in front of the White House.Nuttiness is hard to exhaust.

    However, for real lasting power I’d put money on Butterdezillion.She’s a keyboard warrior, which is more economical of money and energy than legal or publishing craziness.She also has the creative energy to incoporate new information into ever-expanding unified field conspiracy theories.

  12. avatar
    Phil Cave March 2, 2013 at 6:34 pm #

    Walter Fitzpatrick.

  13. avatar
    justlw March 2, 2013 at 6:35 pm #

    Orly clearly is the obvious favorite, but whoever it is that’s responsible for ORYR seems to have even more vitriol in them, if that’s possible, and invests a lot of energy in putting together the shrine to hatred that is their web site.

  14. avatar
    Norbrook March 2, 2013 at 7:51 pm #

    I was torn between Orly, Fitzpatrick, and Strunk, but went with Strunk mainly because he’s even more likely to keep going beyond those two.

  15. avatar
    DaveH March 2, 2013 at 8:14 pm #

    It will be Orly Taitz. She won’t stop for the rest of her life. Even if she were thrown in a deep dark hole on the other side of the galaxy, she will continue to birf. Even on her death bed, she will be birfing.

  16. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG March 2, 2013 at 8:46 pm #

    DaveH:
    Even on her death bed, she will be birfing.

    And then she’s the devil’s problem.

  17. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 2, 2013 at 9:04 pm #

    It’s so hard to choose…

    Ultimately, I decided that drk(H)ate will outlast due to the minimal amount of effort she needs to keep on birfin’ and her sad little dysfunctional community (which gave her the edge over nutter-butter).

  18. avatar
    roald March 2, 2013 at 9:31 pm #

    I’m with G. The last one standing will literally be the last one standing, the youngest and healthiest. The grifters will move on. The rest will be birthers as long as they breath.

  19. avatar
    Dave B. March 2, 2013 at 9:59 pm #

    Yeah, and whatever became of this?
    http://teapartyorg.ning.com/forum/topics/i-will-file-against-mitt-romney-if-he-is-nominated
    Poor guy, he’s not even in the running. I voted for Lakin, just because he seems to be in better shape than most. He’s probably taking better care of himself.

    donna: before commenting, am i correct in assuming that there will be no birther lawsuits against rubio, jindal & cruz?

  20. avatar
    justlw March 3, 2013 at 12:14 am #

    I know its still early in the poll, but:

    SHE WINS!!! SHE WINS!!! SHE WINS!!!

  21. avatar
    G March 3, 2013 at 2:07 am #

    Well Strunk may become fairly “limited” in making future pursuits soon…since I believe he was recently declared a vexatious litigant and is currently in the process of facing major financial sanctions that may be hard for him to recover from…

    …so once that whole situation resolves, Strunk’s filing days may actually come to an end…

    Norbrook:
    I was torn between Orly, Fitzpatrick, and Strunk, but went with Strunk mainly because he’s even more likely to keep going beyond those two.

  22. avatar
    G March 3, 2013 at 2:17 am #

    Yeah, the advanced age of a lot of these folks certainly will come into play here…

    …and health wise – beyond just the possibility of suffering real damaging mental deterioration and breakdowns, there is a lot of stress in such constant crazy hate and angst…as well as constant conflict with smacking up against a reality that never matches their delusions… that kind of stuff can really take a toll on a body, so I wouldn’t ever be surprised to hear if some of these folks developed strokes or heart attacks or similar health issues as a result.

    Then there are the folks like Rudy Davis and Walter Fitzpatrick…in which you wonder if it is just a matter of time before they “snap” and do something really stupid and end up incarcerated or worse…

    So those kind of things really play havoc on the whole “outlast” aspect here…which is almost a separate issue to how much of a “dedicated fervent true believer” they are…

    roald:
    I’m with G. The last one standing will literally be the last one standing, the youngest and healthiest. The grifters will move on. The rest will be birthers as long as they breath.

  23. avatar
    Dave B. March 3, 2013 at 2:26 am #

    Well, we know Rudy drives while birthering and doesn’t wear his seat belt…

    G: Then there are the folks like Rudy Davis and Walter Fitzpatrick…in which you wonder if it is just a matter of time before they “snap” and do something really stupid and end up incarcerated or worse…

  24. avatar
    The Magic M March 3, 2013 at 5:32 am #

    G: beyond just the possibility of suffering real damaging mental deterioration and breakdowns, there is a lot of stress in such constant crazy hate and angst

    I wouldn’t be surprised if many of them have drug issues as well (if you include alcohol abuse in that definition, I think that’s reasonable to assume).

  25. avatar
    realist March 3, 2013 at 8:17 am #

    Phil Cave:
    Walter Fitzpatrick.

    If he outlives (physically) Orly and Manning, I would wholeheartedly agree.

  26. avatar
    Majority Will March 3, 2013 at 8:58 am #

    Don’t count out Orly’s progeny, sons Isaac (23), Benjamin (21), and Ronald (19) who are all potentially next generation birthers trained to carry the torch.

    IIRC, at least one of them is attending a real law school.

    http://www.nndb.com/people/848/000206230/

  27. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny March 3, 2013 at 12:13 pm #

    The problem with the question is in the word “standing”.

    Notwithstanding the fact that birfers will never have standing, Orly Taitz is sure to continue birfing while being rolled into court for her 666th “Motion to stay the election of an illegal president” in 2055 – with the only news from the White House being that “President Natasha Obama has refused to comment.”

  28. avatar
    G March 3, 2013 at 12:43 pm #

    Good point. In terms of actual “Birfing”, the Birthers never had anything to stand on in the first place…and the rules of the universe aren’t going to magically change, no matter how much they pretend…nor do any of them have the “rights” to such information either.

    So yeah, in every sense of their stated “goals”…there never is and never will be “standing” in any shape or form.

    What we’re really trying to guess at here is who will be the last one “squawking”…

    😉

    Paul Pieniezny:
    The problem with the question is in the word “standing”.

    Notwithstanding the fact that birfers will never have standing, Orly Taitz is sure to continue birfing while being rolled into court for her 666th “Motion to stay the election of an illegal president” in 2055 – with the only news from the White House being that “President Natasha Obama has refused to comment.”

  29. avatar
    justlw March 3, 2013 at 12:56 pm #

    I can’t help but thinking that there’s something the current top four vote-garnerers have in common, and it’s driving me nuts that I can’t think of what it is. Crazy, I know.

  30. avatar
    Majority Will March 3, 2013 at 1:20 pm #

    justlw:
    I can’t help but thinking that there’s something the current top four vote-garnerers have in common, and it’s driving me nuts that I can’t think of what it is.Crazy, I know.

    Every single birther bigot and paranoid conspiracy freak is bat guano psychotic to some degree.

  31. avatar
    Cindy March 3, 2013 at 1:34 pm #

    What is so funny, is that orly takes this poll as some badge of honor, instead of the ridicule it so clearly shows. I laugh that she actually thinks she is some threat to anyone. The “regime” is sure not worried, just annoyed by her because she is such an pest. I doubt if Obama even knows this silliness continues. He has moved on from orly, trump,et al

  32. avatar
    elcoz1 March 3, 2013 at 1:57 pm #

    Prideful racist arrogance is the common bond that binds 99% of birfers together, however in order to consider the question at hand you have to break them down into ‘true believers’ vs. ‘capitalists’. Clowns like Manning who jumped on the birfer bandwagon late as to what he perceived was the most fertile ground to sow his jealous venom aren’t ‘true believers’, nor is the human face rash Corsi. They would be examples of the ‘capitalists’. Others like Orly and Rudy are space cadets in addition to being prideful racist twits.

  33. avatar
    G March 3, 2013 at 2:08 pm #

    I see what you did there… 😉

    justlw:
    I can’t help but thinking that there’s something the current top four vote-garnerers have in common, and it’s driving me nuts that I can’t think of what it is. Crazy, I know.

  34. avatar
    G March 3, 2013 at 2:15 pm #

    I find clowns like Manning to be more of the self-loathing bitter jealous type. But yeah, beyond that, he’s got a history of being a shyster…so I agree that he’s a “capitalist” in the grifting con artist sense more than a “true believer”…he’s just using his own self-loathing towards his latest profiteering.

    The human face race isn’t much different in those regards…except whatever pseudo-ideological / quasi-religious “issues” are driving his particular profit motives…but there are certainly hints of a lot of personal “issues and insecurities” under his hood and activities too…

    I prefer to think of them all as scam artists and muckraking profiteers instead of true “capitalists”…

    elcoz1: Clowns like Manning who jumped on the birfer bandwagon late as to what he perceived was the most fertile ground to sow his jealous venom aren’t ‘true believers’, nor is the human face rash Corsi. They would be examples of the ‘capitalists’.

  35. avatar
    Yoda March 3, 2013 at 2:27 pm #

    To follow up Cindy’s comments, this is Orly’s take on the poll:

    Obama operatives ran a poll “the last birther standing”. They wrote names of some 20 people who, together with me are fighting this battle. Their poll obama operatives’ poll The last Birther standing
    was asking who will be the last birther standing? They voted me the last birther standing with 59% of the vote, second is Rudy with 10%, third person has 6% and so on. While I do not agree that there will be the last birther standing, I believe all of us and thousands more, 45,000 who signed my petition and many others will prevail together, one thing is clear: Obama’s operatives know that I will not leave the battlefield until the battle with the criminal in the White House is won. They also perceive me as the biggest threat, the last person standing, which explains why they attack me so viciously: in the media and in courts. So people should realize that all of the despicable paintings, bashing sites, ad hominim attacks on me come from their perception of me as a threat, as someone who will be the last birther standing. Well, there is an old Russian saying: even one soldier on the battlefield is a force.
    I do know that we have a lot of soldiers, which makes us a formidable force, which will see to it that a criminal sitting in the WH with forged IDs will be sitting in the Big House and not a moment too soon.
    How soon will it happen, depends on each and every one of you. This battle cannot be won by one person and will not be won by one person. It will be won by all of fighting together.

  36. avatar
    BillTheCat March 3, 2013 at 2:32 pm #

    Hahahaha she has an article up on this touting her WIN here, because its ALL ABOUT ORLY 24-7. Instead of seeing how everyone laughs at her and sees what a sick,vile “woman” she is, she naturally doubles down.

    I miss the days when people with mental problems were committed.

  37. avatar
    elcoz1 March 3, 2013 at 2:35 pm #

    Capitalists only in the sense of capitalizing on folks being gullible, but muckraking profiteers applies; however when you talk about deranged folk like Rudy there is no profit motive, if anything he is one of the scammed.

    G: I prefer to think of them all as scam artists and muckraking profiteers instead of true “capitalists”…

  38. avatar
    justlw March 3, 2013 at 3:38 pm #

    Majority Will: Every single birther bigot and paranoid conspiracy freak is bat guano psychotic to some degree.

    Thinking about this, I would say that birthers can be mapped on three axes:

    * Bat guano psychotic – the “C” axis
    * In it for the grift – the “G” axis
    * Hate the BGitWH – the “ODS” axis

    My hypothesis is that it is indeed possible to be a low-C birther, but the lower the C component, the higher the G or ODS component.

    ODS is present in all birthers, and may indeed always be the driving force. Thus the oft-repeated, “There are no pro-Obama birthers.”

    Given the question behind this poll — “will they ever give up?” — it’s not surprising that the “winners” are all high-C.

  39. avatar
    American Mzungu March 3, 2013 at 3:46 pm #

    Doc, is there any way you can tell if Orly voted for herself?

    I am SO disappointed with Bob Gard. I went out of my way to nominate him as a way of recognizing his participation here. The least he could do is vote for himself.

  40. avatar
    justlw March 3, 2013 at 3:52 pm #

    An exercise: I took the poll members and tried to map them on the axes I mentioned above. Some of them I’m not as aware of, so I marked them with a “?”

    Orly Taitz CG+O+
    Rudy C+g-O+
    Butterdezillion C+g-O+
    Theresa Cao C++g-O
    ORYR host cGO++
    Dr. Kate cGO+

    Mark Gillar c-GO
    Christopher-Earl: Strunk ?
    Terry Lakin Cg-O
    James D. Manning cgO+
    Jerome Corsi cG+O
    Mario Apuzzo cGO

    Chalice Jackson ?
    Al Hendershot ?
    Bob Gard CgO+
    Charles Kerchner CGO+
    Susan Daniels CGO
    Linda Jordan CGO
    Sharon Rondeau ?
    Mike Zullo cG+O
    Walter Fitzpatrick ?
    Tracy Fair CgO+
    Paul Irey cGO+

    Key:

    Upper case: significant
    Lower case: present
    – : diminished significance
    one or more + : increased significance

    EDIT: breaks group them into “multiple votes”, “one vote” and “no votes” at this time.

  41. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 3, 2013 at 3:54 pm #

    To the extent that I can identify the folks that voted for her, she didn’t. Lots of folks who voted for her, I can’t identify.

    American Mzungu: Doc, is there any way you can tell if Orly voted for herself?

  42. avatar
    Plutodog March 3, 2013 at 5:53 pm #

    I had to vote for butter. Couldn’t see helping Orly “win” this even as sick as that is and butter can apparently go on blogging the crazy until she breaths her last. I imagine after 2016, she can keep on finding things to maintain her black POTUS paranoia, even spin them into whoever succeeds this POTUS…

  43. avatar
    Reality Check March 3, 2013 at 6:43 pm #

    I voted for ORYR because he already seems to be two people so they can keep substituting someone else when the old one dies off. We have already seen Bob Nelson from NC get replaced.

  44. avatar
    Yoda March 3, 2013 at 6:55 pm #

    I voted for Orly, if for no other reason, she is the perfect combination of insanity, stupidity,and gullibility. Therefore, she is the most likely person to prodded along by pranksters and run with phony information.

  45. avatar
    donna March 3, 2013 at 9:02 pm #

    orly’s post:

    Even Obama operatives know that I do not leave the battlefield until the battle is won

    http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/?p=398322

  46. avatar
    Kiwiwriter March 3, 2013 at 9:08 pm #

    Yoda:
    To follow up Cindy’s comments, this is Orly’s take on the poll:

    Obama operatives ran a poll “the last birther standing”. They wrote names of some 20 people who, together with me are fighting this battle. Their poll obama operatives’ poll The last Birther standing
    was asking who willbe the last birther standing? They voted me the last birther standing with 59% of the vote,second is Rudy with 10%, third person has 6% and so on. While I do not agree that there will be the last birther standing, I believe all of us and thousands more, 45,000 who signed my petition and many others will prevail together, one thing is clear: Obama’s operatives know that I will not leave the battlefield until the battle with the criminal in the White House is won. They also perceive me as the biggest threat, the last person standing, which explains why they attack me so viciously: in the media and in courts. So people should realize that all of the despicable paintings, bashing sites, ad hominim attacks on me come from their perception of me as a threat, as someone who will be the last birther standing. Well, there is an old Russian saying: even one soldier on the battlefield is a force.
    I do know that we have a lot of soldiers, which makes us a formidable force, which will see to it that a criminal sitting in the WH with forged IDs will be sitting in the Big House and not a moment too soon.
    How soon will it happen, depends on each and every one of you. This battle cannot be won by one person and will not be won by one person. It will be won by all of fighting together.

    Unbelievable narcissism and sense of self-importance. Wow.

  47. avatar
    G March 4, 2013 at 12:46 am #

    Me too!

    BillTheCat: I miss the days when people with mental problems were committed.

  48. avatar
    G March 4, 2013 at 12:47 am #

    Yeah, Rudy is definitely in the “true believer” category. He is definitely one of the scammed and someone who is easily susceptible to all sorts of nonsense… he’s a “righteous fool” and an increasingly unhinged one at that…

    elcoz1: however when you talk about deranged folk like Rudy there is no profit motive, if anything he is one of the scammed.

  49. avatar
    predicto March 4, 2013 at 2:25 am #

    I had to vote for butterdezillon. Sure, Orly is a nut, but she is also trying to milk this for personal gain and fame. Eventually even she will give up and move on, once there are no more acolytes kissing her butt and sending her paypal presents.

    Butter, on the other hand, views reality entirely differently than normal people. She makes things up and then genuinely believes them. There is no way for her to give up. She doesn’t even understand that there is another side out there.

  50. avatar
    ZixiOfIx March 4, 2013 at 3:31 am #

    I don’t believe that Jerome Corsi believes even half of what he spews, so in spite of his prominence as a “birther”, I’ve never thought he actually qualified as a true believer.
    Otherwise, he’d be my immediate vote, because he’ll be riding this one all the way down, wringing the very last cent from this convoluted mess of lies.

    I’m left with Butter. She seems entirely impervious to reason, to reality and to plain, commonly known facts. Long after Orly has been disbarred and the others have been distracted by newer, shinier things, she’ll still be insisting on things her way. To be fair to her, I think she believes what she says, even when what she says originates in her own mind.

  51. avatar
    Sam the Centipede March 4, 2013 at 4:05 am #

    Isn’t it amusing how Taitz spins coming top of this poll as Obots acknowledging her persistence?

    Who else would celebrate winning a “Who’s The Biggest Idiot?” competition?

  52. avatar
    roadburner March 4, 2013 at 4:44 am #

    i voted for teresa cao

    she’s a true believer with no financial gain to get out of it, but still gets up off her ass and actually gets out on the street to protest her cause.

    she’s the one that’ll be outside the white house for years to come after the birfoon bucks have dried up

  53. avatar
    Stanislaw March 4, 2013 at 8:50 am #

    I voted for Orly. She”s WAY too stupid to know that she will never win. There may actually be a glimmer of hope, however fleeting, for the rest of them.

  54. avatar
    JPotter March 4, 2013 at 9:32 am #

    Don’t forget Tracy Fair.She’s still rambling this very minute, nonstop, wherever anyone is unfortunate to find her and fool enough to engage her.Charlie Sheen has moved on, but Tracy is still, “Winning!”

    I agree Corsi will move on, if not done already. Just another lilypad in the great chain of smears for him. He’ll be smearing someone else with something else someday soon.

  55. avatar
    The Magic M March 4, 2013 at 9:51 am #

    JPotter: He’ll be smearing someone else with something else someday soon.

    Just wait until the first likely picks for Democratic Party presidential candidate for 2016 come out. The next swift boat is already waiting in the docks. I’m just curious if Corsi has decided birtherism was a failure and will opt for a different approach (even if the candidate turns out to be black).

  56. avatar
    JPotter March 4, 2013 at 10:23 am #

    The Magic M: I’m just curious if Corsi has decided birtherism was a failure and will opt for a different approach

    Of course he will. Unless that just happens to fit the person. His smears are usually specific to the person. Just find the most ridiculous criticism to be made of the person and go with it.

  57. avatar
    donna March 4, 2013 at 11:13 am #

    The Magic M: Just wait until the first likely picks for Democratic Party presidential candidate for 2016 come out.

    what about rubio, jindal and cruz? the “2 us citizen parents” fail in birtherstan

  58. avatar
    The Magic M March 4, 2013 at 12:23 pm #

    donna: what about rubio, jindal and cruz? the “2 us citizen parents” fail in birtherstan

    I totally expect most of them (the Vattelists are a minority among birthers anyway, most have simply added their claims to their laundry list of “why I hate Obama”) to collectively “forget” they ever cared about parents.
    Remember their 2012 stance was “anyone but Obama” and the “true Vattelists” who said “I couldn’t vote for either” were shouted down (99.9% of birthers weren’t Romney fans either, but many still voted for him).
    If in 2016, it will be “anyone but another Democrat”, I think the Vattelists will find themselves the fringe among the fringe, the outcast among the outcast. Poetic justice.

    Anyway, maybe after Obama’s second term, the birthers will resort to battling each other over whose approach (Kenyan birth, BC forgery, Vattelism, …) was correct and who deralied the movement by pursuing the wrong path. That would be fun, if only for a while, after which it would be like watching a boxing match between two blind and deaf fighters.