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Taitz deletes racially-tinged article, but why?

Commenter donna mentioned this article at the Taitz web site, but when I went looking, it was not there:

Error 404 on page http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/?p=412112

It was once there [Google cached version, Before it’s News reprint]. It was a letter of support from the “East Oakland Counsel of Conservative Citizens.” They have a novel theory about why President Obama is ineligible:

We at the East Oakland chapter have been following your case for several years, and we agree that we have the wrong president; he’s ineligible and should be brought to justice. Anyone with any sense can see that just by looking at this impostor.

And lest there be any question about where they are coming from:

It would have been obvious to anyone who viewed the elections of 2008 and 2012, that Obama is a shill for other, more evil powers, and has been inserted in power to advance the goals of those who would institute a truly anti-American multicultural government who will work against the European heritage that we at COCC believe will tear apart this country even more than we’ve seen since the Obama “presidency” began.

So the COCC offered some fund raising, and to send a busload of supporters to Taitz’ court hearing on April 22 in the Grinols case, describing it as a trial and saying that people showing up will influence the Court.

All of that said, the article in question is gone, zapped and erased; it is an ex-article. Now the question is “why?” Could it be that he East Oakland Counsel of Conservatives Citizens never existed? Is this rather one in a long string of attempts to punk Orly Taitz? Is it real, but Orly Taitz upon reflection decided she didn’t want their support? Is it just a technical glitch, or something entirely different?

The article says that the East Bay Bible Church is the COCC meeting place. Is this photo from the church’s Facebook page a clue?

East Bay Bible Church with non-white face

Not finding anything on the web about the “East Oakland Council of Conservative Citizens, ” nor about Taitz’ title variant, “East Oakland Counsel for Conservative Citizens” except as derived from her article, I’d say it was a fake.

Punking the birthers – priceless

72 Responses to Taitz deletes racially-tinged article, but why?

  1. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 9, 2013 at 2:59 pm #

    While the information used in this article was developed independently, after I wrote it, I found the same stuff was on The Fogbow two days ago. ;(

  2. avatar
    misha marinsky April 9, 2013 at 3:01 pm #

    Oakland is majority black. She was pranked.

  3. avatar
    alg April 9, 2013 at 3:16 pm #

    Orly was clearly punked.

    I doubt that she actually read through the thing very closely. All she noted is that it was glowingly supportive of her and she missed all the racist implications.

    Of course, the give away on this is that Sam T. Frances, the alleged author and representative of the CoCC, died eight years ago. A couple of commenters pointed that out to her and she realized that she’d been hoaxed.

  4. avatar
    Bob April 9, 2013 at 3:56 pm #

    A good rule of thumb Orly might want to follow is “If it’s too good to be true then it probably isn’t.”

  5. avatar
    Thinker April 9, 2013 at 4:26 pm #

    The prankster outed himself on the Fogbow and posted some emails that Taitz’s flying monkeys sent to the fake Sam Frances. http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=8693&start=4375#p494296

  6. avatar
    Andrew Morris April 9, 2013 at 4:27 pm #

    Funny, because with both dentistry and law (though I still don’t believe she actually took the law exams) enquiry and analysis are key concepts.

  7. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 9, 2013 at 4:32 pm #

    I wonder if prankster Oliver Douglas is no less than the esteemed New York attorney Oliver Wendell Douglas?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Wendell_Douglas

    Thinker:
    The prankster outed himself on the Fogbow and posted some emails that Taitz’s flying monkeys sent to the fake Sam Frances. http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=8693&start=4375#p494296

  8. avatar
    Crustacean April 9, 2013 at 4:55 pm #

    Thinker: emails that Taitz’s flying monkeys sent to the fake Sam Frances

    Birthers make the BEST malapropisms (Yogi Berra, eat yer heart out). Did you catch the commenter decrying the “indelibility… of the resident in the White House”? Priceless.

    When Terrell Owens pulled that Sharpie out of his sock to celebrate a touchdown, you know what he was? An indelible receiver!!

  9. avatar
    Thinker April 9, 2013 at 5:06 pm #

    Possibly. Orly Tatiz does look a lot like a transvestite Eva Gabor impersonator.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I wonder if prankster Oliver Douglas is no less than the esteemed New York attorney Oliver Wendell Douglas?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Wendell_Douglas

  10. avatar
    Rickey April 9, 2013 at 5:32 pm #

    Crustacean: Birthers make the BEST malapropisms (Yogi Berra, eat yer heart out).Did you catch the commenter decrying the “indelibility… of the resident in the White House”?Priceless.

    When Terrell Owens pulled that Sharpie out of his sock to celebrate a touchdown, you know what he was?An indelible receiver!!

    The sad part is that some of them are proud of their ignorance and many are contemptuous and suspicious of people who are well-educated.

    Everybody makes a typo now and then, but I would be embarrassed if, like birther John, I repeatedly posted notes with misspelled words and malapropisms. We have even told him about the spell checker, but he obviously doesn’t care.

  11. avatar
    Jim April 9, 2013 at 5:44 pm #

    Rickey: The sad part is that some of them are proud of their ignorance and many are contemptuous and suspicious of people who are well-educated.

    Everybody makes a typo now and then, but I would be embarrassed if, like birther John, I repeatedly posted notes with misspelled words and malapropisms. We have even told him about the spell checker, but he obviously doesn’t care.

    60’s Hippies: “Don’t trust anyone over 30.”

    2010’s Birthers: “Don’t trust anybody who can type or speak in complete sentences.”

  12. avatar
    Birther Weary April 9, 2013 at 6:22 pm #

    Andrew Morris:
    Funny, because with both dentistry and law (though I still don’t believe she actually took the law exams) enquiry and analysis are key concepts.

    Fortunately for her potential dental victims, the only time she stops by the shop is to get a hit of nitrous oxide.

  13. avatar
    JPotter April 9, 2013 at 8:51 pm #

    Considering the reality of East Oakland, this was definitely a punking of her punk ___.

    The over the top name got me thinking it might be a clue or add’l taunt. East Oakland = EO = Equal Opportunity.

    The EEOC comes to mind, and that would have been masterful. EOCCC is similar … Equal Opportunity Civilian Conservation Corps? Heh.

  14. avatar
    Butterfly Bilderberg April 9, 2013 at 11:58 pm #

    alg:
    Orly was clearly punked.

    I doubt that she actually read through the thing very closely.All she noted is that it was glowingly supportive of her and she missed all the racist implications.

    Of course, the give away on this is that Sam T. Frances, the alleged author and representative of the CoCC, died eight years ago.A couple of commenters pointed that out to her and she realized that she’d been hoaxed.

    Still, it is very disturbing that she will post anything that flatters her without looking into the source. It took me all of 0.18 seconds to find this:

    “God is the author of racism. God is the One who divided mankind into different types. … Mixing the races is rebelliousness against God.”
    — Council of Conservative Citizens website, 2001

  15. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 10, 2013 at 7:24 am #

    And disturbing that she would publish something with racist dog whistles in it.

    Butterfly Bilderberg: Still, it is very disturbing that she will post anything that flatters her without looking into the source

  16. avatar
    ben April 10, 2013 at 2:09 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    And disturbing that she would publish something with racist dog whistles in it.

    She probably published it without understanding the blatant racism. To her..the first thing that stood out was “imposter” anti Obama etc etc. It should have occurred to her the letter speaks of “european heritage” etc., that jews are not included in this category. But then the stuff she posts herself with the bad spelling, wrong grammar & albeit twisted logic would even challenge a schoolchild. Still very entertaining though…like I said who needs TV these days when she has retired military men, special agents etc writing to her. Oh by the way there was a long letter from some retired general who quoted lines from William Ernest Henley’s invictus poem, as a means of showing his patriotism. How does this matter.? Timothy Mcveigh’s last words before his execution were the words of this poem.

    It matters not how strait the gate,
    How charged with punishments the scroll,
    I am the master of my fate:
    I am the captain of my soul.

    I doubt very much if Taitz has the intelligence to know this

  17. avatar
    misha marinsky April 10, 2013 at 4:52 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: And disturbing that she would publish something with racist dog whistles in it.

    Why? She welcomes support from the English Defence League. Here’s where her sympathies lie:

    Jewish Terrorist Gets Life – Jewish terrorist Ya’akov Teitel was sentenced by a Jerusalem court earlier today to two life terms in prison plus an additional 30 years in prison. Teitel was convicted in January on two murder counts and additional counts of assault.

    Teitel murdered two Palestinians in 1997. He also committed two attempted murders, assault with intent, illegal manufacturing and possession of firearms, and incitement of violence and terrorism, all between the years 1997 and 2008.

    Complete story: http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2013/04/jewish-terrorist-gets-life-twice-345.html

  18. avatar
    misha marinsky April 10, 2013 at 5:17 pm #

    ben: I doubt very much if Taitz has the intelligence to know this

    She does not.

  19. avatar
    Patrick McKinnion April 10, 2013 at 6:19 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    And disturbing that she would publish something with racist dog whistles in it.

    There’s been a lot of posts she’s allowed though with racist comments in them. Some of her cavity creeps have said it’s “Obots” trying to make her look bad, but even if that was the case, she’s STILL allowing them though moderation

  20. avatar
    Bob April 10, 2013 at 8:02 pm #

    Why should she continue to pretend that she’s not a racist? She’s got nothing to lose.

  21. avatar
    ObiWanCannoli April 10, 2013 at 9:52 pm #

    If people with Orly’s caliber can pass the CA bar exam, then it is not much of an exam. She obviously has lowered the threshold for the disbarment and sanctions. I believe there is a very serous integrity problem with the CA bar exam. Does the bar publish the entire pool of questions from each section ahead of the test date like the essay questions for the GRE exams? If so, she could’ve paid someone to write the answers and memorized them. And there is also “brain dumps”, where someone who took the exam breaches his/her Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) and tells others exactly what was on the test. All evidences point to the fact that she couldn’t have passed the exam without some outside help.

  22. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG April 10, 2013 at 10:27 pm #

    I’d say “Well you’re judged by the company you keep!”, but Taitz is just as bad, if not worse than her toadies.

  23. avatar
    Deborah April 10, 2013 at 10:36 pm #

    Having studied European history as a major (and indigenous populations as a minor) this article really interests me. I’d like to comment but unfortunately I have been very busy for the last several days, I am busy right now, I will be busy for the next two days, and I won’t have any leisure until the week end. I’ll have to get back to it.

    No one who knows the impact of European history upon America would make the comment that it is “anti-American” to do anything other than perpetuate European history. The founders were determined to eliminate the conflicts of European history in America. If it was a prankster, it was a good prank that has the potential to prove just how ignorant Orly is. But I have little interest in Orly anymore, except when I need a dose of poison.

    Gotta run! I really miss this site.

  24. avatar
    ZixiOfIx April 11, 2013 at 5:11 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: And disturbing that she would publish something with racist dog whistles in it.

    I wonder how far she would have gone with this, had the group not been fake?

    Birthers certainly have traveled down the “He’s not white so he can’t be president” road on more than one occasion.

    Obama has no natural born right to be President. He is a squatter occupying the White House Free Republic

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2620065/posts?page=1

  25. avatar
    Kiwiwriter April 11, 2013 at 12:47 pm #

    Crustacean: Birthers make the BEST malapropisms (Yogi Berra, eat yer heart out). Did you catch the commenter decrying the “indelibility… of the resident in the White House”? Priceless.When Terrell Owens pulled that Sharpie out of his sock to celebrate a touchdown, you know what he was? An indelible receiver!!

    Yeah, but Yogi’s malaprops often made sense, when you thought about them.

    Like: “When you come to a fork in the road, take it,” really means: “When you come to a decision in life, make the decision.”

  26. avatar
    e.vattel April 11, 2013 at 7:36 pm #

    “May not our government be more homogeneous, more peaceful, more durable?”
    Thomas Jefferson

    Ford, III, 189-190

  27. avatar
    nbc April 11, 2013 at 7:41 pm #

    e.vattel:
    “May not our government be more homogeneous, more peaceful, more durable?”
    Thomas Jefferson

    Tell that to the obstructionist Republicans 🙂

  28. avatar
    e.vattel April 11, 2013 at 7:44 pm #

    “In proportion to their numbers, they will share with us the legislation. They will infuse into it their spirit, warp and bias its directions, and render it a heterogeneous, incoherent, distracted mass…” Thomas Jefferson

  29. avatar
    nbc April 11, 2013 at 7:47 pm #

    Yawn… Is there any reason you are spamming the site with meaningless quotes…

  30. avatar
    e.vattel April 11, 2013 at 7:49 pm #

    Jefferson writes the government should be “more” homogeneous. If it’s heterogenous it will be a “incoherent, distracted mass”.

    Remember Jefferson’s words:

    “only natural born citizens to work in the government”

  31. avatar
    nbc April 11, 2013 at 7:54 pm #

    Good thing that our President is natural born but of course Jefferson’s beliefs were never really implemented as only the President and VP have the natural born requirement.

    As to your interpretation of Jefferson’s words, it betrays far more about you…

    Still hurting I guess that President Obama is in his second term and there is nothing you can do about it.

    PS: Jefferson was talking about immigrants…

  32. avatar
    e.vattel April 11, 2013 at 8:00 pm #

    Indigeneous does mean natural.

  33. avatar
    donna April 11, 2013 at 8:00 pm #

    e.vattel:

    larousse translation of the french “parents”

    relative, relation

    un proche parent a close relative ou relation
    un lointain parent, un parent éloigné a distant relative ou relation
    un parent du c’té paternel/maternel a relation on the father’s/mother’s side
    nous sommes parents par ma femme we’re related through my wife
    ce sont des parents en ligne directe/par alliance they’re blood relations/related by marriage

    the REAL vattel wrote “parens” to mean RELATIVES – birthers took the word “parens/parents” and translated it to mean 2 PARENTS to fit their agenda

    when i asked birther lawyer apuzzo to translate a simple french phrase (i created) into english, he told me to ask a french waiter

  34. avatar
    e.vattel April 11, 2013 at 8:07 pm #

    Jefferson is really saying our government is more ‘peculiar than those of any other in the universe’

    In order for it to work it needs to be homogeneous. He wanted a natural increase of the existing stock.

  35. avatar
    nbc April 11, 2013 at 8:09 pm #

    e.vattel:
    Indigeneous does mean natural.

    Yes those born in the country.

  36. avatar
    e.vattel April 11, 2013 at 8:11 pm #

    “Yearnings to be with her own natural kind” William Wordsworth

    Who are her natural kind?

  37. avatar
    nbc April 11, 2013 at 8:11 pm #

    e.vattel:
    Jefferson is really saying our government is more ‘peculiar than those of any other in the universe’

    In order for it to work it needs to be homogeneous. He wanted a natural increase of the existing stock.

    Yes, through immigration or birth in the country. But he did not really say that our government was any more peculiar than the government of France. He was worried about immigration, that’s all.

    Your interpretations are quite funny but reflect more on you than on Jefferson as you try to interpret them in a manner to well supported.

  38. avatar
    nbc April 11, 2013 at 8:15 pm #

    Jefferson

    If an alien have issue born within the k[ing]‘s obedience, the issue is a natural only: ib. This excludes enemies possess[in]g a town &c. ib.
    Abjuratur still owes allegiance because he may be restored. 9.b. So an outlaw. ib. 14.a.
    The law of nature is part of the law of Engld. 12.b.

    Notes to Congress

    Oops.

  39. avatar
    e.vattel April 11, 2013 at 8:15 pm #

    Native means natural. Are the pythons born in the everglades a native species? Are they naturals?

  40. avatar
    nbc April 11, 2013 at 8:17 pm #

    e.vattel:
    “Yearnings to be with her own natural kind” William Wordsworth

    Who are her natural kind?

    Those born on her soil of course.

  41. avatar
    e.vattel April 11, 2013 at 8:20 pm #

    Jefferson was worried the government becoming heterogeneous.

  42. avatar
    nbc April 11, 2013 at 8:27 pm #

    e.vattel:
    Jefferson was worried the government becoming heterogeneous.

    Yes, he wanted to minimize immigration. Your point?

  43. avatar
    e.vattel April 11, 2013 at 8:29 pm #

    The Roman coins are perfect examples Rome’s decline. The more heterogeneous Rome became the smaller the coins.

  44. avatar
    nbc April 11, 2013 at 8:30 pm #

    e.vattel:
    Native means natural. Are the pythons born in the everglades a native species? Are they naturals?

    Now we are talking about the biological meaning of the term. Sadly for your argument, the terms left undefined in the Constitution are not to be defined by biologists but rather the meaning of said term as used in common law.

    Jefferson explained what this meant…

    Nice try my friend. But again, you fail to impress

  45. avatar
    nbc April 11, 2013 at 8:31 pm #

    e.vattel:
    The Roman coins are perfect examples Rome’s decline. The more heterogeneous Rome became the smaller the coins.

    ROTFL… You’re so funny… Oh boy….

  46. avatar
    Scientist April 11, 2013 at 8:38 pm #

    e.vattel: Native means natural. Are the pythons born in the everglades a native species? Are they naturals?

    I’m not sure what that has to do with the subject of this blog, but your argument suggests that only Native Americans can live on this continent. What tribe are you? If you can’t document your pre-Columbian ancestry, it’s back to Europe with you.

  47. avatar
    donna April 11, 2013 at 8:38 pm #

    e.vattel: Jefferson was worried the government becoming heterogeneous.

    NBC: Yes, he wanted to minimize immigration. Your point?

    ahhh but that’s the birther point ….. they long for their white european ancestry

    what did pat buchanan say on 11/7/2012? Buchanan: ‘White America’ Died Last Night

  48. avatar
    Kiwiwriter April 11, 2013 at 8:41 pm #

    e.vattel:
    Native means natural. Are the pythons born in the everglades a native species? Are they naturals?

    Let me know when the pythons have an opinion on the subject.

  49. avatar
    e.vattel April 11, 2013 at 8:42 pm #

    Kind, Natural, and Homogeneous means one race.

    Heterogenous Unkind Unnatural means different races.

  50. avatar
    nbc April 11, 2013 at 8:43 pm #

    Scientist: I’m not sure what that has to do with the subject of this blog, but your argument suggests that only Native Americans can live on this continent. What tribe are you?If you can’t document your pre-Columbian ancestry, it’s back to Europe with you.

    Yes, we are invasive species.. Poor Vattel no respect but then again, his own ‘logic’ leads to these conclusions…

  51. avatar
    Scientist April 11, 2013 at 8:43 pm #

    e.vattel: Jefferson was worried the government becoming heterogeneous.

    If he believed in homogeneity so much, he should have kept his thing in his pants instead of shtupping Sally Hemmings, the hypocrite.

  52. avatar
    nbc April 11, 2013 at 8:44 pm #

    e.vattel:
    Kind, Natural, and Homogeneous mean race.

    Heterogenous Unkind Unnatural means different races.

    As I said, your own words indict you… Thanks for revealing your true motives… The foolishness you go through to try to validate your beliefs about race are quite hilarious.

  53. avatar
    nbc April 11, 2013 at 8:45 pm #

    donna:
    e.vattel: Jefferson was worried the government becoming heterogeneous.

    NBC: Yes, he wanted to minimize immigration. Your point?

    ahhh but that’s the birther point ….. they long for their white european ancestry

    what did pat buchanan say on 11/7/2012? Buchanan: ‘White America’ Died Last Night

    indeed it seems now that e.vattel has confirmed your interpretation… Fascinating…

  54. avatar
    donna April 11, 2013 at 8:49 pm #

    nbc:

    have you read ‘Tea Party’ is over: Ex-activist says racism, hypocrisy killed the movement” by founder Phil Russo?

    A movement hijacked by the political and religious right

    And then, the Dick Army’s of the political world started to creep in and take over the movement. They were very slick about it. They started giving all of these individual Tea Party groups money so people who were selling real estate six months earlier could now make a living watching Fox News and blogging, or posting on Twitter and Facebook.

    It’s so sad to me that a movement that began as an organic reaction to big government has been hijacked by the right. The Tea Party’s slogan was, “fiscal responsibility, limited government, and free markets” — but it has now become the religious right in tri-corner hats.

    http://thegrio.com/2013/04/09/tea-party-is-over-ex-activist-says-racism-hypocrisy-killed-the-movement/

  55. avatar
    Keith April 11, 2013 at 8:58 pm #

    donna: have you read ‘Tea Party’ is over: Ex-activist says racism, hypocrisy killed the movement” by founder Phil Russo?

    I linked that article in the ‘Open Thread’. Russo seems to have (perhaps belatedly) discovered what everyone else already knows; he got hoodwinked by the TEA party financiers and their hidden agenda.

    The TEA party is the John Birch Society, renamed.

  56. avatar
    ZixiOfIx April 11, 2013 at 9:44 pm #

    Scientist: I’m not sure what that has to do with the subject of this blog, but your argument suggests that only Native Americans can live on this continent. What tribe are you?If you can’t document your pre-Columbian ancestry, it’s back to Europe with you.

    No. “Native” Americans came over from what is now Russia at Beringia. Not only “not native” but from Russia? What’s going on there? Russia?

    That pretty much means that only moose and elk are eligible for the presidency. And mammoths. Because Thomas Jefferson was really excited about the possibility that mammoths still lived in North America, and asked Lewis and Clark to look for them as they traveled west.

    Jefferson National Expansion Memorial

    So, elk, moose, and mammoths. That’s it.

    In all seriousness, birthers argue that Native Americans would not be eligible for the presidency since they are dual citizens of their tribal nation and the United States. Additionally, they point to the argument over Section 2 of the 14th Amendment when it was being written.

    Of course, Native Americans most certainly are natural born citizens. If there was any question, it was ended by the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924. When confronted with this, birthers then argue that NBC can’t derive from law.

    ::rolls eyes::

  57. avatar
    SluggoJD April 11, 2013 at 10:55 pm #

    e.vattel:
    Jefferson is really saying our government is more ‘peculiar than those of any other in the universe’

    In order for it to work it needs to be homogeneous. He wanted a natural increase of the existing stock.

    Eat cow poop and die, you racist piece of bateria

  58. avatar
    nbc April 11, 2013 at 11:12 pm #

    What an ugly person our friend has become… So sad… Ignorance and hatred…

  59. avatar
    Keith April 11, 2013 at 11:36 pm #

    One has to be very careful with Jefferson quotes. There are a lot of misattributed and down-right fraudulent quotes.

    The popular internet quote lookup services all have several quotations that are completely wrong.

    The best place to check for a genuine quote is the Jefferson Library at Monticello. They even list several widespread spurious quotes.

    The first thing to do, although it may seem surprising, is to search for your quotation using a search engine such as Google. Try searching for your quotation in large collections of digitized print material as well, such as Google Books, Hathi Trust, and the Internet Archive. If your results consist only of websites and books that attribute the quotation to Thomas Jefferson but do not provide a citation, the quotation may well be spurious. Check our listing of known spurious Jefferson quotations, and if you do not see it there, please contact us.

    If you are not looking to determine the source of a particular quotation, but instead would like to locate passages in Jefferson’s writings where he may have mentioned a certain topic, we recommend a different strategy. Instead of casting a wide net, it is often more fruitful to start with existing compilations of Jefferson quotations. The following are some of the most useful books and websites for finding an appropriate quotation.

    (and they go on to list 6 possible strategies for finding categorized quotes).

  60. avatar
    nbc April 11, 2013 at 11:47 pm #

    I believe that the quotes presented were in fact Jefferson’s as I am very well aware of the abusive quoting practices by birthers and other poorly informed souls. Of course, Jefferson never really used the term natural born or that he wanted to keep the ‘races pure’. He was just concerned that too many immigrants would overwhelm our nation.

    It’s sad that people misconstrue his words for their own purposes.

  61. avatar
    Keith April 11, 2013 at 11:51 pm #

    e.vattel:
    Jefferson is really saying our government is more ‘peculiar than those of any other in the universe’

    In order for it to work it needs to be homogeneous. He wanted a natural increase of the existing stock.

    That is a complete falsehood. Jefferson valued differences between citizens and especially differences of opinion.

    “Difference of opinion leads to enquiry, and enquiry to truth; and that, I am sure, is the ultimate and sincere object of us both. We both value too much the freedom of opinion sanctioned by our Constitution, not to cherish its exercise even where in opposition to ourselves.” –Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:283

    “Men, according to their constitutions and the circumstances in which they are placed, differ honestly in opinion. Some are whigs, liberals, democrats, call them what you please. Others are tories, serviles, aristocrats, etc.” –Thomas Jefferson to William Short, 1825. ME 16:96

    “I tolerate with the utmost latitude the right of others to differ from me in opinion without imputing to them criminality.” –Thomas Jefferson to Abigail Adams, 1804. ME 11:52

    “Shall we refuse the unhappy fugitives from distress that hospitality which the savages of the wilderness extended to our fathers arriving in this land? Shall oppressed humanity find no asylum on this globe? The Constitution, indeed, has wisely provided that for admission to certain offices of important trust a residence shall be required sufficient to develop character and design. But might not the general character and capabilities of a citizen be safely communicated to every one manifesting a bona fide purpose of embarking his life and fortunes permanently with us?” –Thomas Jefferson: 1st Annual Message, 1801. ME 3:338

    “It [has] been the wise policy of these states to extend the protection of their laws to all those who should settle among them of whatever nation or religion they might be and to admit them to a participation of the benefits of civil and religious freedom, and… the benevolence of this practice as well as its salutary effects [has] rendered it worthy of being continued in future times.” –Thomas Jefferson: Proclamation, 1781. Papers 4:505

    The discussion you seem to be highlighting was Jefferson’s concerns about uncontrolled immigration; that folks from a non-British background would suffer from isolation until they learned the language and customs; and he cited the German communities as an example. But he was not against immigration, he merely wanted the best result for America and the new Americans.

    “[Is] rapid population [growth] by as great importations of foreigners as possible… founded in good policy?… They will bring with them the principles of the governments they leave, imbibed in their early youth; or, if able to throw them off, it will be in exchange for an unbounded licentiousness, passing, as is usual, from one extreme to another. It would be a miracle were they to stop precisely at the point of temperate liberty. These principles, with their language, they will transmit to their children. In proportion to their number, they will share with us the legislation. They will infuse into it their spirit, warp and bias its direction, and render it a heterogeneous, incoherent, distracted mass… If they come of themselves, they are entitled to all the rights of citizenship: but I doubt the expediency of inviting them by extraordinary encouragements.” –Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.VIII, 1782. ME 2:118

    “I mean not that these doubts should be extended to the importation of useful artificers. The policy of that measure depends on very different considerations. Spare no expense in obtaining them. They will after a while go to the plough and the hoe; but in the meantime, they will teach us something we do not know.” –Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.VIII, 1782. ME 2:121

  62. avatar
    nbc April 11, 2013 at 11:54 pm #

    Excellent analysis Keith..

    Let’s show our foolish friend how real researchers work not by putting words in the mouths of of forefathers but rather by carefully and accurately quoting them.

    Let that be a lesson e.vattel…

  63. avatar
    Keith April 11, 2013 at 11:59 pm #

    I missed the editing window to add this:

    Jefferson was obviously discussing a proposal from someone to positively give inducements for mass immigration (I haven’t researched this, but it is clear from the context – “inviting them by extraordinary encouragements”). Australia did this in the 1950’s in response to the ‘populate or die’ theory. There are thousands of “10 Pound Aussies” who each received a ticket and 10 pounds to immigrate to Australia.

    Clearly he was worried about what we today call ‘ghettoization’.

  64. avatar
    MN-Skeptic April 12, 2013 at 12:30 am #

    e.vattel:
    Kind, Natural, and Homogeneous means one race.

    Heterogenous Unkind Unnatural means different races.

    Well, isn”t that convenient that we’re all members of the human race? I guess there are a few Neanderthals still around, but fortunately you’re in the tiny minority.

  65. avatar
    misha marinsky April 12, 2013 at 3:19 am #

    e.vattel: In order for it to work it needs to be homogeneous. He wanted a natural increase of the existing stock.

    May I call you Emmie? Thanks.

    The descendants of slaves are now the president and First Lady.

    That is the course of events. I know you don’t like it, and are denying that Barack Obama is legitimately our president. Obama will have a library, and will go down in history as the nation’s first black president. Biographies by the dozens will be written.

    You and the rest of your Denialist mob will be a footnote, and a chapter in abnormal psychology textbooks.

    Have a nice life.

  66. avatar
    The Magic M April 12, 2013 at 7:21 am #

    donna: the REAL vattel wrote “parens” to mean RELATIVES – birthers took the word “parens/parents” and translated it to mean 2 PARENTS to fit their agenda

    Just to set the facts straight – the “parens = parents” translation comes from the first English edition of Vattel and thus predates birtherism by more than two centuries. If somebody mistranslated it, it was the original translator.
    Birthers made many other mistakes invoking Vattel (him being authoritative to begin with, the referential plural “children of citizen parents”, the fact that the Founders must’ve relied on their personal translation of the French original etc.) but w.r.t. this one, they are innocent.

  67. avatar
    Scientist April 12, 2013 at 7:33 am #

    nbc:
    I believe that the quotes presented were in fact Jefferson’s as I am very well aware of the abusive quoting practices by birthers and other poorly informed souls. Of course, Jefferson never really used the term natural born or that he wanted to keep the ‘races pure’. He was just concerned that too many immigrants would overwhelm our nation.

    It’s sad that people misconstrue his words for their own purposes.

    I would go even further. Quotes from Jefferson or any other founder, even where accurate and complete, are often a substitute for real rational thought and logic. Jefferson was simply flat-out wrong about a great many things. Slavery for one. His desire that the US remain an agrarian country and not industrialize, for another. Every American should be deeply grateful that Hamilton wiped the floor with Jefferson on that one.

  68. avatar
    Northland10 April 12, 2013 at 8:00 am #

    nbc:
    Excellent analysis Keith..

    Let’s show our foolish friend how real researchers work not by putting words in the mouths of of forefathers but rather by carefully and accurately quoting them.

    Let that be a lesson e.vattel…

    Dancing Rabbitt/Dragging Canoe doesn’t want nor will pay attention to any lesson. He is just a sad little ex-pat racist who is mad that the Obama’s are in the White eating all of E. Vattel’s donuts. Doc will soon be around to clean up the bile from this banned commenter.

  69. avatar
    Northland10 April 12, 2013 at 8:11 am #

    Northland10: Dancing Rabbitt/Dragging Canoe doesn’t want nor will pay attention to any lesson.He is just a sad little ex-pat racist who is mad that the Obama’s are in the White eating all of E. Vattel’s donuts.Doc will soon be around to clean up the bile from this banned commenter.

    Clarification.. My comment above was not intended to paint all expats with the racist brush. It was solely intended for E Vattel. Sorry about that Keith and others

  70. avatar
    The Magic M April 12, 2013 at 9:57 am #

    Scientist: Quotes from Jefferson or any other founder, even where accurate and complete, are often a substitute for real rational thought and logic.

    Appeal to authority (of a single person) never works.
    But people with small minds and little ability to defend their own positions love to throw quotes as if they were daggers. (And, reversing that tactic, think that e.g. a scientist’s discoveries are all hogwash if they can just show one totally different thing he was wrong about. Yeah, Einstein made some mistakes, so relativity theory is bogus, woo-hoo!)

    The desire to glorify and idolize the Founders as if they were some kind of demi-gods is the epitome of the desire to “turn back the clock” to those “good old days” when 3/5’s of the women had to sit in the back of gay hell – or something.

  71. avatar
    Deborah April 12, 2013 at 11:14 am #

    Let’s not forget that Vattel was also dealing with the law of nations- how different nations should respect each other.

  72. avatar
    nbc April 12, 2013 at 2:26 pm #

    Deborah:
    Let’s not forget that Vattel was also dealing with the law of nations- how different nations should respect each other.

    Yes, which is why he also accepted that municipal law determines who is and is not a (natural born) citizen as each country reserves the right to determine who are its citizens. And this is why in the US, the courts have looked at common law, not international law and determined the meaning of natural born to mean ‘born on soil, under full jurisdiction’, the latter excludes children born to ambassadors etc, and invading military who were, under common law, excluded as they are not born under the jurisdiction of the country.

    Even Jefferson understood the meaning of natural law when it came to the status of a child born on soil, pointing to British practices. So it becomes quite untenable to further the ‘vattel’/law of nations angle.

    But that has been obvious ever since US v Wong Kim Ark settled this conclusively.