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Birther displeasure with the Cold Case Posse

When Sheriff Joe Arpaio held his first conference announcing preliminary results of the Cold Case Posse’s investigation in to Barack Obama’s documentation, birther hopes were at a high point. Over a year later, it has come to nothing but press conferences, radio appearances, and an inadmissible affidavit appended to some legal briefs.

Birthers are making demands now, and one article at the Orly Taitz Esq. site [link to Taitz web site] details demands from Brian Riley, described as the organizer of the Arizona Tea Party. Riley summarizes the history of the Cold Case Posse and then demands:

A criminal complaint needs to be immediately filed with the appropriate authorities in my opinion. This does not look good and time is short.

Mr. Riley says that if Zullo writes another book before charges are filed, he’s going to ask for a refund. I left the following comment in reply (currently in moderation):

In their passion to unseat Barack Obama, the birthers really don’t pay much attention to the people who preach their cause, so long as they say the right words, and hold out some promise for results. It is, frankly, fertile ground for hucksters and con men.

I don’t know about Zullo, whether he’s a con man or a true believer, but I do know that the Cold Case Posse has made promise after promise that they haven’t kept, they presented some evidence that was faked, their "experts" tell stories that contradict each other from press conference to press conference, they refuse to testify under oath and blow off subpoenas, and they never actually do anything but seek media attention.

What amazes me is that anyone at this stage would be willing to give the CCP more time. Someone who hasn’t wised up already isn’t going to wise up tomorrow.

Here’s another comment left by someone else:

Zullo stood up and detailed his findings. Sherriff A stated he appointed this in front of the camera. He detailed the reason he solicited the investigation. As a Sherriff it is his duty to act on criminal complaints.

He can file fraud charges. Its up to the AG of the county and state to pursue the case. It is in his jurisdiction to file the complaint when people in his jurisdiction make complaints.

Someone is full of horse manure.

and:

… Anyone who thinks they will ever file charges is nuts. …

and:

Those Arpaio-enablers are our main impediment to removing the Usurper.

and:

Unfortunately, with the level of corruption on BOTH sides of the fence, I don’t see how this country is going to avoid a total and complete meltdown. The public’s anger is palpable – and it is being deliberately stoked by these pukesacks every day. They want trouble and by God, they are going to get it. Brace for impact.

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307 Responses to Birther displeasure with the Cold Case Posse

  1. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 21, 2013 at 1:24 pm #

    Well, there is no honor among Birthers, they are frustrated and furious that the Usurper was not only elected but re-elected, their lawsuits all fail, their mainstream media interviews are run as comedy sketches that end with the interviewer calling them an idiot in front of millions of viewers, they are ridiculed, pranked, and harassed on an hourly basis by six-year-olds of all ages, and their “demonstrations” get no traction, as Orly herself found out on Inauguration Day.

    So I’m not surprised they are in an increasingly furious state, and angrily nattering about violence and revolution. It’s the last resort…some birther, quoted on Fogbow, said something I actually agree with, which proves that stopped clocks are right occasionally:

    He said that talk of revolution and violence is that of teenagers, but the actual revolution and violence has to be conducted by adults, and he was, sadly, right. The Hitler Youth didn’t invade Poland and France until they were young adults, serving in the Wehrmacht. Nor did they butcher the Jews as teenagers — they had to grow up to join the SS first.

    So the birthers who prattle about incipient revolution are overheated teenagers of a variety of ages. The danger is that some of these hopeless romantics, who see themselves storming a barricade and gunning down dozens of Obot Marines, may actually try to turn their ghastly fantasies into reality, and wind up butchering innocents.

    Interestingly, I think they will attack each other first…to root out the “traitors.”

  2. avatar
    Bob May 21, 2013 at 2:11 pm #

    One thing the Birthers will never get from the CCP is a refund.

  3. avatar
    aarrgghh May 21, 2013 at 2:27 pm #

    a refund? it’s not like birfers can say they didn’t have fun while playing

  4. avatar
    misha marinsky May 21, 2013 at 2:28 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: The danger is that some of these hopeless romantics, who see themselves storming a barricade and gunning down dozens of Obot Marines, may actually try to turn their ghastly fantasies into reality, and wind up butchering innocents.

    That is their real goal – to incite a lone wolf.

  5. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 21, 2013 at 2:36 pm #

    Huh, whadaya know?! There really IS a finite number of times you can fool a fool!

  6. avatar
    misha marinsky May 21, 2013 at 3:06 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG:There really IS a finite number of times you can fool a fool!

    “There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.” —Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002

  7. avatar
    bgansel9 May 21, 2013 at 3:20 pm #

    I thought I’d ask a question about our county taxes being used. it’s got them all riled up. LOL

    http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2013/05/developing-sheriff-arpaio-lead.html

  8. avatar
    bgansel9 May 21, 2013 at 3:52 pm #

    It seems to me that if Arpaio provided a Crown Victoria that was purchased with taxpayer funds, that’s a breach of trust violation between MCSO and the taxpayers. I want to know more about that Crown Victoria. I’m sending this to Phoenix New Times. Hopefully they’ll check it out.

  9. avatar
    Majority Will May 21, 2013 at 4:10 pm #

    bgansel9:
    I thought I’d ask a question about our county taxes being used. it’s got them all riled up. LOL

    http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2013/05/developing-sheriff-arpaio-lead.html

    That’s one serious Stormfront rally of birther cowards going on over there.

  10. avatar
    alg May 21, 2013 at 4:22 pm #

    Bob:
    “One thing the Birthers will never get from the CCP is a refund.”

    Well, I don’t know. It’s been so much fun so far that I am tempted to donate to the CCP to keep the comedy show going. This is much better than old “Our Miss Brooks” reruns.

  11. avatar
    donna May 21, 2013 at 4:45 pm #

    alg: It’s been so much fun so far that I am tempted to donate to the CCP to keep the comedy show going.

    i’m waiting for the lifetime movie – are there anymore gabors around to play orly?

  12. avatar
    Majority Will May 21, 2013 at 4:51 pm #

    donna:
    alg:It’s been so much fun so far that I am tempted to donate to the CCP to keep the comedy show going.

    i’m waiting for the lifetime movie – are there anymore gabors around to play orly?

    Zsa Zsa Gabor is 96.

  13. avatar
    Jim May 21, 2013 at 4:55 pm #

    Majority Will: Zsa Zsa Gabor is 96.

    I think Lisa Kudrow could play a ditzy blond. :D

  14. avatar
    Majority Will May 21, 2013 at 5:32 pm #

    Jim: I think Lisa Kudrow could play a ditzy blond.

    S. Palin with a blonde wig would be more convincing.

  15. avatar
    gorefan May 21, 2013 at 5:39 pm #

    Zullo will now take your questions.

    http://www.ppsimmons.blogspot.com/2013/05/exclusive-have-question-for-mike-zullo.html#comment-form

  16. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 21, 2013 at 5:59 pm #

    misha marinsky: That is their real goal – to incite a lone wolf.

    Absolutely…incite a “lone wolf.” That’s what Matthew Hale did as head of the “World Church of the Creator.” But the “Lone Wolf” Hale was trying to encourage to kill a federal judge was actually an FBI informant, so they got Hale on tape telling this clown to murder the judge.

    Irony meter:

    1. The judge had ruled in FAVOR of Hale…the appeals court kicked the case back to the judge.

    2. The judge’s family was all gunned down by an unrelated criminal.

  17. avatar
    Rickey May 21, 2013 at 6:26 pm #

    Birthers continue to display their ignorance about legal matters.

    Even if there were ironclad proof that the LFBC is a forgery, what crime was committed? And who committed the crime?

    As far as we know, the LFBC has never been used by Obama for an official purpose. He didn’t use it to obtain a driver’s license or a passport; and he apparently did not present one of his certified copies to any state in order to get on the 2012 ballot. All he did was have a pdf of it posted on the White House website and he allowed some reporters to hold it. I have been waiting for two years for birthers to tell me specifically what state or Federal statute was violated if the LFBC is a fake. Of course it is not a fake, but birthers will never admit that.

    And if the birth certificate is a fake, who is reponsible for it? The authorities need to identify a suspect, and there must be sufficient evidence that the suspect is guilty of a crime before an indictment can be obtained. I seem to recall that Corsi once claimed that he had identified the “forger” but as usual nothing came of it.

    Birthers have been punked so many times that I have lost track. Remember the supposed Michelle Obama “whitey” tape? The James Manning “trial”? The Birther Summit? Dr. Kate’s Usurpathon? All epic fails, yet the true believer birthers continue to follow along like lemmings.

  18. avatar
    Jim May 21, 2013 at 6:34 pm #

    Majority Will: S. Palin with a blonde wig would be more convincing.

    Convincing, no…entertaining, definitely.

    Hmmmmmm…if she had to do a Russian accent…think birfstan would turn on her too? “She MUST be RUSSIAN!!!” :D

  19. avatar
    Bob May 21, 2013 at 6:40 pm #

    For Orly:

    Moldova’s entry in the Eurovision 2013 Finals ☞LINK

  20. avatar
    Robb May 21, 2013 at 6:46 pm #

    When economies tank, and the world looks to be on the edge of a war or something similar, religious prophets tend to come out of the woodwork. While some truly and honestly believe what they preach, most are hucksters and conmen, taking advantage of a panicking population. The followers are generally hard-fast and committed, but the prophets are after the profits.

    Though there hasn’t been a swing in religion (as religion is decreasing as a whole, and moving to individual thoughts otherwise, it is likely due to this change), there is indeed a huge upswing in conspiracies, which target the exact same concepts that we cling to in these situations. That’s what I see going on, a religious awakening where, just like the previous ones, the followers are starting to realize that their prophets never believed as they did – and that sure as hell would piss me off

  21. avatar
    donna May 21, 2013 at 7:09 pm #

    Majority Will : S. Palin with a blonde wig would be more convincing.

    yes, palin has the screeching down pat

    Robb:

    agreed but young people are having none of it – they are leaving the church in droves due to conservative politics

  22. avatar
    Yoda May 21, 2013 at 7:43 pm #

    Is there anything funnier than birfer theater? I would love a movie about it to be made and given the MST3000 treatment.

  23. avatar
    Majority Will May 21, 2013 at 8:38 pm #

    donna:
    Majority Will : S. Palin with a blonde wig would be more convincing.

    yes, palin has the screeching down pat

    Robb:

    agreed but young people are having none of it – they are leaving the church in droves due to conservative politics

    And then there are these people:

    Bill Nye Boo’d In Texas for Saying “The Moon Reflects the Sun”

    (excerpt) At some point on April 4th, 2006, Bill Nye flew himself down to Texas and decided to teach science at the McLennan Community College. This community college is in Waco, Texas. Yes, that Waco, Texas. The school had managed to bait Bill Nye to come down and apparently be the laughing stock of the town, because he believed in bizarre things like evolution, genetics, the Big Bang Theory and apparently atheism.

    The McLennan Community College had invited a large panel of pastors and Christian scientists to sit down and hand Bill Nye a mighty lecturing that would take place in front of the area’s elementary school children and their proud mothers. Everyone was waiting to demonize science as the supposedly mousy Bill Nye was overwhelmed by theologians, but quite the opposite took place.

    At some point during the ‘debate’, Bill Nye made mention that the moon reflects the light of the sun, but produces no light of its own. According to an article shamed from even the Waco Tribune, the good townfolk ‘were visibly angered by what some perceived as irreverence.” With the audience on its heels and panel opponents frothing at the mouth, Bill Nye then went into a long lecture where he brought up topics like global warming, Mars exploration and energy consumption. Bill Nye dared to imply that Texans were evil for driving 5 miles per gallon Humvees and not even carpooling.

    Suddenly during all this, a wild-eyed minister leaped up from the audience and screamed, saying Bill Nye is a liar because none of his science is in the Bible. Nye calmly riled everyone up, by bringning up Genesis 1:16, which reads, “God made two great lights — the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.” Nye then corrected the Bible. “The lesser light is not a light at all, but only a reflector.”

    At this point, the Waco Tribune records that one mother jumped up from her seat and screeched, “We believe in God!”, then ran away crying, dragging three of children away with her. As she ran off, the mother was seen visibly cupping the ears of the child in her arms so her baby would not have to hear any more of Nye’s science.

    The rest: http://topekasnews.com/bill-nye-bood-in-texas-for-saying-the-moon-reflects-the-sun/

  24. avatar
    ObiWanCannoli May 21, 2013 at 8:48 pm #

    misha marinsky: “There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.” —Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002

    ROFLMAO!!!!!

    Quoting him doesn’t do any justice. You actually have to listen to his speech or lack thereof. Every time I hear the the quote above, I split my sides wide open! You just can’t make this up!!

  25. avatar
    donna May 21, 2013 at 8:51 pm #

    Majority Will:

    have you seen this?

    4th-Grade ‘Science Test’ Goes Viral: Creationism Quiz Claims Dinosaurs Lived With People

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/26/4th-grade-science-test-creationism-questions-dinosaurs_n_3163922.html

  26. avatar
    Majority Will May 21, 2013 at 8:59 pm #

    donna:
    Majority Will:

    have you seen this?

    4th-Grade ‘Science Test’ Goes Viral: Creationism Quiz Claims Dinosaurs Lived With People

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/26/4th-grade-science-test-creationism-questions-dinosaurs_n_3163922.html

    The Flintstones was a documentary.

  27. avatar
    charo May 21, 2013 at 9:21 pm #

    http://phys.org/news/2013-04-scientists-rare-dinosaur-skin-fossil.html

    Barbi said this is only the third three-dimensional dinosaur skin specimen ever found worldwide.


    But perhaps the greatest question Barbi is trying to answer at the CLS is how the fossil remained intact for around 70-million years.

    *****
    Not saying the earth is 5-6 thousand years old but could it be that 70 million years for dinosaurs is off base? Wouldn’t you love to be a scientist studying that find?

  28. avatar
    misha marinsky May 21, 2013 at 11:06 pm #

    Majority Will: The rest: http://topekasnews.com/bill-nye-bood-in-texas-for-saying-the-moon-reflects-the-sun/

    Speaking of Kansas: Gov. Sam Brownback does not believe in evolution.

    “Brownback says that he believes “that the process of creation … is sustained by the hand of God in a manner known fully only to him.”

    Look at it this way: It’s more opportunity for us.

    http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2007/05/sam_brownback_o.html

  29. avatar
    misha marinsky May 21, 2013 at 11:25 pm #

    charo: Not saying the earth is 5-6 thousand years old but could it be that 70 million years for dinosaurs is off base? Wouldn’t you love to be a scientist studying that find?

    So how old is the earth? Bible Spice says people and dinosaurs walked together. Har, har.

  30. avatar
    Keith May 22, 2013 at 1:08 am #

    Yoda:
    Is there anything funnier than birfer theater?I would love a movie about it to be made and given the MST3000 treatment.

    Have you seen the HBO show “Newsroom”?

    I expect it has played many times in the US, I’ve just found it in Australia and haven’t seen all the episodes. It is great, each episode has an invented episode of a report covering a major topic that we already know all about, like the killing of bin Laden or the Republican Presidential debates.

    I am sure there must be a birther mention in there, but I dunno, like I say, I haven’t seen them all yet.

  31. avatar
    Yoda May 22, 2013 at 1:58 am #

    Keith: Have you seen the HBO show “Newsroom”?

    I expect it has played many times in the US, I’ve just found it in Australia and haven’t seen all the episodes. It is great, each episode has an invented episode of a report covering a major topic that we already know all about, like the killing of bin Laden or the Republican Presidential debates.

    I am sure there must be a birther mention in there, but I dunno, like I say, I haven’t seen them all yet.

    I love Newsroom, saw all 10 episodes in one day.

  32. avatar
    misha marinsky May 22, 2013 at 2:38 am #

    Kiwiwriter: Well, there is no honor among Birthers

    No honor among thieves.

  33. avatar
    G May 22, 2013 at 3:23 am #

    Sorry Charo, but you are making absurd inferences out of an ignorance of understanding scientific principles and wishing to make some irrelevant creationist-type argument. In other words, you are simply jumping to nonsensical conclusions that have nothing to do with the significance of this rare and special fossil find at all. The issue here is science is just beginning to get a better understanding about the extent of preservation and fossilization processes that are possible. The age of the samples are not in question here – only the circumstances that took place to allow for this rare form of extreme tissue mummification to take place.

    Look, I get it that most people have an unfortunately weak grasp of both the scientific process itself and many areas of true science. I blame that on our education system…and the fact that understanding things like science and math are “hard”…because they require a lot of learning to grasp the complexity of even basic concepts of molecular biology, inorganic chemistry and organic chemistry. So if you don’t even have a basic understanding of biogeochemical cycles or radiometric dating, you are probably clueless to how we have a very solid understanding of the age of the earth and fossils that are found, as well as how processes such as fossilization take place and work and what types of conditions that requires.

    This isn’t the first such find of this type or relative age either. In 2005, preserved blood vessels and other soft tissues were reported in a T. Rex sample. In 2007, a pseudo-mummified Hadrosaur with preserved skin and other soft tissues was quite the discovery (actually discovered in 1999) and even was covered with a TV special on the National Geographic Channel. It is unclear from your article whether the Hadrosaur skin samples mentioned there are yet another find of such extreme preservation for that same species, or simply an update on the progress from the 2007 find. There are other soft tissue fossil finds reported beyond those.

    But rest assured, the AGE of these samples are not in question. These fossils come from well established fossil beds that have been carefully examined and dated. These very same crazy creationist false-conclusions came about, back when those first Cretaceous soft tissue samples were discovered in 2005 (and indications that such findings are out there goes back even further than that). Here’s some excerpts to explain what was found as well as what was explained then about the fallacy of the creationist false conclusion:

    Schweitzer, one of the first scientists to use the tools of modern cell biology to study dinosaurs, has upended the conventional wisdom by showing that some rock-hard fossils tens of millions of years old may have remnants of soft tissues hidden away in their interiors. “The reason it hasn’t been discovered before is no right-thinking paleontologist would do what Mary did with her specimens. We don’t go to all this effort to dig this stuff out of the ground to then destroy it in acid,” says dinosaur paleontologist Thomas Holtz Jr., of the University of Maryland. “It’s great science.” The observations could shed new light on how dinosaurs evolved and how their muscles and blood vessels worked. And the new findings might help settle a long-running debate about whether dinosaurs were warmblooded, coldblooded—or both.

    Meanwhile, Schweitzer’s research has been hijacked by “young earth” creationists, who insist that dinosaur soft tissue couldn’t possibly survive millions of years. They claim her discoveries support their belief, based on their interpretation of Genesis, that the earth is only a few thousand years old. Of course, it’s not unusual for a paleontologist to differ with creationists. But when creationists misrepresent Schweitzer’s data, she takes it personally: she describes herself as “a complete and total Christian.”

    Further discoveries in the past year have shown that the discovery of soft tissue in B. rex wasn’t just a fluke. Schweitzer and Wittmeyer have now found probable blood vessels, bone-building cells and connective tissue in another T. rex, in a theropod from Argentina and in a 300,000-year-old woolly mammoth fossil. Schweitzer’s work is “showing us we really don’t understand decay,” Holtz says. “There’s a lot of really basic stuff in nature that people just make assumptions about.”

    Young-earth creationists also see Schweitzer’s work as revolutionary, but in an entirely different way. They first seized upon Schweitzer’s work after she wrote an article for the popular science magazine Earth in 1997 about possible red blood cells in her dinosaur specimens. Creation magazine claimed that Schweitzer’s research was “powerful testimony against the whole idea of dinosaurs living millions of years ago. It speaks volumes for the Bible’s account of a recent creation.”

    This drives Schweitzer crazy. Geologists have established that the Hell Creek Formation, where B. rex was found, is 68 million years old, and so are the bones buried in it. She’s horrified that some Christians accuse her of hiding the true meaning of her data. “They treat you really bad,” she says. “They twist your words and they manipulate your data.” For her, science and religion represent two different ways of looking at the world; invoking the hand of God to explain natural phenomena breaks the rules of science. After all, she says, what God asks is faith, not evidence. “If you have all this evidence and proof positive that God exists, you don’t need faith. I think he kind of designed it so that we’d never be able to prove his existence. And I think that’s really cool.”

    By definition, there is a lot that scientists don’t know, because the whole point of science is to explore the unknown. By being clear that scientists haven’t explained everything, Schweitzer leaves room for other explanations. “I think that we’re always wise to leave certain doors open,” she says.

    Here’s the whole article for reference:

    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur.html?c=y&story=fullstory

    Here is a good article with PICTURES of these fossil’s soft tissues:

    http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7285683/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/scientists-recover-t-rex-soft-tissue/#.UZxgB7WsiSo

    And here is the 2007 article about the Hadrosaur mummy find and its skin tissues:

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/071203-dino-mummy.html

    Here is just an excerpt from that, where the rare process required for such preservation is explained in a summary way:

    The hadrosaur, or duck-billed dinosaur, was discovered in 1999 by then-teenage paleontologist Tyler Lyson on his family’s North Dakota property.

    It was an extremely fortuitous find, because the odds of mummification are slim, researchers noted.

    First the dinosaur body had to escape predators, scavengers, and degradation by weather and water. Then a chemical process must have mineralized the tissue before bacteria ate it. And finally, the remains had to survive millions of years undamaged.

    The preservation of organic soft tissues in extreme conditions is possible. Not common, but possible. Heck, there are even examples of living soft-bodied animals whose tissues can not only withstand extreme conditions of heat, cold, desiccation (99% water loss) i.e. practically “dead” and then “come back to life” even hundreds of years later, and even the vacuum of space! These critters, known as tardigrades (or water bears) are very plentiful and exist in many thriving species in nearly every environment on Earth!

    Here’s a short and fun little video to introduce you to the wonders of the Water Bear:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUC0_HjNFBs

    So I hope you’ve learned something fun and fascinating here and realize that our wondrous world and our biogeochemical processes are capable of an amazing array of things, where YES, even soft tissues can be preserved, under the right circumstances and conditions, for many, many millions of years. The Hadrosaur example is probably around 75 million years old and YES, the timeframe of when dinosaurs roamed the Earth is very well established. And finally YES, I would love to be a scientist studying such a wondrous and rare find! That specimen will likely continue to provide valuable insights and new data for decades to come.

    charo:
    http://phys.org/news/2013-04-scientists-rare-dinosaur-skin-fossil.html

    Barbi said this is only the third three-dimensional dinosaur skin specimen ever found worldwide.


    But perhaps the greatest question Barbi is trying to answer at the CLS is how the fossil remained intact for around 70-million years.

    *****
    Not saying the earth is 5-6 thousand years old but could it be that 70 million years for dinosaurs is off base?Wouldn’t you love to be a scientist studying that find?

  34. avatar
    G May 22, 2013 at 3:37 am #

    Snopes has confirmed the story and that this took place at Blue Ridge Christian Academy in Greenville, SC.

    See (and read to the bottom of the article with the latest update, confirming the story as finally verified):

    http://www.snopes.com/photos/signs/sciencetest.asp

    *sigh* What an embarrassment for Doc C’s home state…

    donna:
    Majority Will:

    have you seen this?

    4th-Grade ‘Science Test’ Goes Viral: Creationism Quiz Claims Dinosaurs Lived With People

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/26/4th-grade-science-test-creationism-questions-dinosaurs_n_3163922.html

  35. avatar
    G May 22, 2013 at 4:17 am #

    Bill Nye also had a good quote in Donna’s article, which really sums this up well:

    Scientist and entertainer Bill Nye weighed in, telling the Associated Press in September: “The Earth is not 6,000 or 10,000 years old. It’s not. And if that conflicts with your beliefs, I strongly feel you should question your beliefs.”

    Very well said!!!

    Majority Will: Suddenly during all this, a wild-eyed minister leaped up from the audience and screamed, saying Bill Nye is a liar because none of his science is in the Bible. Nye calmly riled everyone up, by bringning up Genesis 1:16, which reads, “God made two great lights — the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.” Nye then corrected the Bible. “The lesser light is not a light at all, but only a reflector.”

    At this point, the Waco Tribune records that one mother jumped up from her seat and screeched, “We believe in God!”, then ran away crying, dragging three of children away with her. As she ran off, the mother was seen visibly cupping the ears of the child in her arms so her baby would not have to hear any more of Nye’s science.

    The rest: http://topekasnews.com/bill-nye-bood-in-texas-for-saying-the-moon-reflects-the-sun/

    donna:
    Majority Will:

    have you seen this?

    4th-Grade ‘Science Test’ Goes Viral: Creationism Quiz Claims Dinosaurs Lived With People

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/26/4th-grade-science-test-creationism-questions-dinosaurs_n_3163922.html

  36. avatar
    charo May 22, 2013 at 5:51 am #

    I have never at any point said that I believe the earth is exactly x number of years old. I am not sure what out mean by Creationist. I believe God created the universe but I don’t hold to the earth is 5,000 years old. From my reading of the article, this is not a mummified sample, but the first time actual skin can be studied. Maybe you don’t realize it, but you came across as quite condenscnding in your tone.

  37. avatar
    G May 22, 2013 at 7:04 am #

    I never accused you of saying that the Earth was some exact “x number of years old” either. What you said was this:

    charo: Not saying the earth is 5-6 thousand years old but could it be that 70 million years for dinosaurs is off base?

    Two points on that. First of all, the answer to “could it be off base” is NOT REALLY. From that second part of your statement, your clear implication is not the 70 million as an “exact” number either (as your sourced article never pinned it down to that number), but YES, the rough time frame (in millions of years or tens of millions of years) of specific species of dinosaurs from their fossils and analysis of their surrounding strata is well known and that 70 million years is within the general time range they are discussing.

    Second, your implication may not be “Young Earth Creationist” in the Earth only being “x” THOUSANDS of years old, but that somehow a 70 million year figure is just too great and that the “science” must be wrong and they must have lived much more recently than that. That is what your phrasing clearly implies…and it is the same type of faux conclusion “argument” that “creationist minded” folks (including Intelligent Design proponents…which is nothing more than “creationism-lite”) have tried to insinuate whenever these soft-tissue fossil finds have occurred.

    So yeah, either that was an intentional “creationism-based” trolling dog-whistle from you or you simply have a limited understanding of the scientific principles involved…as unfortunately too many people do under our educational system requirements. Or both.

    I certainly conveyed some frustration in my reply… because I found your posit to be quite specious and “smug” in its intent…as if somehow the scientists don’t know what their doing… so yeah, when someone puts themselves out there to throw in a glib attack on the established parts of findings (that dinosaurs existed prior to 65 million years ago), instead of simply focusing on the true unknown that is trying to be solved here (what types of preservation methods and environmental factors could allow for soft tissues to remain after so much time), then I seriously question that you know what you are talking about or even understand the basic tenets of the science involved.

    charo: I have never at any point said that I believe the earth is exactly x number of years old. I am not sure what out mean by Creationist. I believe God created the universe but I don’t hold to the earth is 5,000 years old…. Maybe you don’t realize it, but you came across as quite condenscnding in your tone.

    Charo, I know my reply was long, but obviously you responded here without actually reading much of what I wrote or looking at the articles I provided, which answer and address the mummification issue directly. Heck, I even cited and bolded an excerpt from it and the word “mummification is even in the article’s title. So again:

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/071203-dino-mummy.html

    It was an extremely fortuitous find, because the odds of mummification are slim, researchers noted.

    You are correct that your specific source article didn’t give much information about when that fossil find occured, nor used the word mummification as a descriptor for characterizing these preserved soft- tissues embedded in fossil sediments. But as I mentioned in my reply, there is good reason to either suspect this is the same Hadrosaur specimen found way back in 1999 (which resulted in the 2007 article and National Geographic Special) or one that is similar enough to that find, as it had preserved skin and other soft-tissues…and they used mummification as the term to describe that. Mummified skin is actual skin that can be studied. There are actually several types of mummification processes that can occur and preserve tissues to varying degrees in nature (as well as artificial ones)…and the can involve varying degrees of fossilization mixed in as well as a lot of desiccation.

    charo: From my reading of the article, this is not a mummified sample, but the first time actual skin can be studied.

  38. avatar
    Butterfly Bilderberg May 22, 2013 at 8:34 am #

    The birthers’ first — and continuing — mistake was to believe that a county sheriff can “file charges.” Of course, that is not possible. Bringing charges for a felony is within the exclusive domain of a prosecutor.

    Joe and Mike don’t seem able to persuade any prosecutor that there is a criminal case to be made from their speculative, hearsay, fake expert and otherwise fantastical “evidence.”

  39. avatar
    John Reilly May 22, 2013 at 8:45 am #

    People who believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, but have only read it in English, are bound for disappointment. Even if you believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, the Rabbis prepared to testify at the Scopes trial (who were excluded by the Judge) were prepared to say that the Hebrew should be interpreted to mean that on the first “day” God put into motion certain events. Since Hebrew, especially biblical Hebrew, has so few words, one must interpret their meaning. That has occupied Rabbis and Priests for a long time. And, as William Jennings Bryan conceded in his testimony, the days spoken of in Genesis are not literal 24 hour days. They represent time periods.

  40. avatar
    alg May 22, 2013 at 9:35 am #

    Butterfly Bilderberg:
    “The birthers’ first — and continuing — mistake was to believe that a county sheriff can “file charges.”Of course, that is not possible.Bringing charges for a felony is within the exclusive domain of a prosecutor.

    “Joe and Mike don’t seem able to persuade any prosecutor that there is a criminal case to be made from their speculative, hearsay, fake expert and otherwise fantastical ‘evidence’.”

    Sheriff Joe washed his hands of this in July of last year when he said ““My hope is that the U.S. Congress will take over from here.” Unable to convince the Maricopa County Prosecutor and the Arizona State Attorney General that a crime had been committed he walked away from the CCP’s “investigation” and hasn’t spoken of it since.

    More notably, he was publically embarrassed when the Arizona Secretary of State received a certified verification that Mr. Obama’s birth certificate was authentic.

    The good Sheriff knows that his involvement in this now represents a substantial liability to him not just among his detractors, but also among his base. His only means of avoiding this fool’s errand is to abandon Zullo to the wolves.

  41. avatar
    Bob May 22, 2013 at 9:58 am #

    Orly has given Arpaio 12 days to put up or shut up.

  42. avatar
    alg May 22, 2013 at 10:36 am #

    Bob:
    “Orly has given Arpaio 12 days to put up or shut up.”

    One truly wonders if Orly has the good Sheriff shaking in his boots and spurs. :-D

  43. avatar
    bgansel9 May 22, 2013 at 4:05 pm #

    G: The issue here is science is just beginning to get a better understanding about the extent of preservation and fossilization processes that are possible. The age of the samples are not in question here – only the circumstances that took place to allow for this rare form of extreme tissue mummification to take place.

    Thank you G. That’s exactly what I was thinking too.

  44. avatar
    bgansel9 May 22, 2013 at 4:11 pm #

    Butterfly Bilderberg: Joe and Mike don’t seem able to persuade any prosecutor that there is a criminal case to be made from their speculative, hearsay, fake expert and otherwise fantastical “evidence.”

    Joe and Mike better tread carefully. Arpaio has already been responsible for one attorney being disbarred: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/11/andrew-thomas-disbarred-phoenix-prosecutor_n_1415815.html

  45. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 22, 2013 at 7:20 pm #

    bgansel9: Joe and Mike better tread carefully. Arpaio has already been responsible for one attorney being disbarred: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/11/andrew-thomas-disbarred-phoenix-prosecutor_n_1415815.html

    Actually two lawyers were disbarred. The second one was Thomas’ chief deputy Lisa Aubuchon. Some of them have also been hammered with sanctions of several hundred thousand dollars for filing frivolous lawsuits.

    The one person who has managed to emerge unscathed from all of it is…….Joe Arpaio.

  46. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 22, 2013 at 10:22 pm #

    Mike Zullo’s supposed responses to ask Mike Zullo whatever we approve day is now up. Multiple lies contained within
    http://ppsimmons.blogspot.com/2013/05/5-22-13-mike-zullo-answers-your.html

  47. avatar
    Rickey May 22, 2013 at 11:01 pm #

    G:
    Snopes has confirmed the story and that this took place at Blue Ridge Christian Academy in Greenville, SC.

    See (and read to the bottom of the article with the latest update, confirming the story as finally verified):

    http://www.snopes.com/photos/signs/sciencetest.asp

    *sigh*What an embarrassment for Doc C’s home state…

    Yes, but now I know what to say the next time someone claims that God created the universe in seven days.

    “Were you there?”

  48. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 22, 2013 at 11:17 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater:
    Mike Zullo’s supposed responses to ask Mike Zullo whatever we approve day is now up.Multiple lies contained within
    http://ppsimmons.blogspot.com/2013/05/5-22-13-mike-zullo-answers-your.html

    I just listened to it. What a bunch on nonsense.

    I really loved the tap dance about being called Lieutenant.

    But the big lie and the one with the most potential to create problems for the MCSO as an institution is his claim that the Sheriff has the authority to confer complete, full time police powers on posse members……and has done it with his posse.

    What’s the MCSO going to say when some young person who cleared a perfunctory background check and got all of 50 hours of training decides to act like a real police officer…..on or off duty? His/her defense? “The Sheriff said it was okay for Commander Zullo so why isn’t it okay for me?” Sheesh.

    And, for the record, AZPOST has said several times that posse members do not have any police powers……none, zip, nada.

  49. avatar
    G May 23, 2013 at 3:21 am #

    Good one! ;)

    Rickey: Yes, but now I know what to say the next time someone claims that God created the universe in seven days.

    “Were you there?”

  50. avatar
    misha marinsky May 23, 2013 at 8:03 am #

    Rickey: Yes, but now I know what to say the next time someone claims that God created the universe in seven days.

    “Were you there?”

    I tried that once. The response was “I know someone who was.”

  51. avatar
    US Citizen May 23, 2013 at 12:56 pm #

    I recently had an argument with a xtian who was adamant that we all came from Adam and Eve.
    So I said “then god must endorse incest since we all come originally from a group that must of practiced it.”
    They vehemently disagreed this until I mentioned that if only Adam and Eve were on Earth back then, only they or their children must have had sex with each other.
    I added that blacks, Asians and all of man must of come from these original offspring and they, according to them and the bible must have been in god’s image.
    That’s when… like most birthers… he called me a nasty name and ran off.
    Nowadays I take that as a compliment that I was correct, because if nothing else, birthers and xtians tend to be argumentative up to the point they have no retorts left, then quickly leave.

  52. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2013 at 3:07 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater:
    Mike Zullo’s supposed responses to ask Mike Zullo whatever we approve day is now up.Multiple lies contained within
    http://ppsimmons.blogspot.com/2013/05/5-22-13-mike-zullo-answers-your.html

    He’s back!! More nonsense from Zullo today on Gallups program:

    http://www.ppsimmons.blogspot.com/2013/05/breaking-new-revelation-mike-zullo.html

    So far nothing new….other than Zullo saying he won’t arrest the President if he comes to Phoenix.

    Also coming……a “Surprise Sneak Peek” at what is coming.

    Be still my heart.

  53. avatar
    alg May 23, 2013 at 3:36 pm #

    Just listened to Zullo’s latest comedy routine with Carl Gallups.

    Most noteworthy is that Zullo admits his so-called “cold case posse investigation” will not and cannot result in the filing of a criminal compliant.

    Instead he admonishes us that only Congress has the Constitutional authority to act on his investigation information.

    To that end within the next two weeks he is meeting in conference with a number of unnamed national “VIP’s” who he expects will call on Congress to investigate Barack Obama’s forged birth certificate.

    Any day now :-)

  54. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2013 at 3:49 pm #

    alg:
    Just listened to Zullo’s latest comedy routine with Carl Gallups.

    Most noteworthy is that Zullo admits his so-called “cold case posse investigation” will not and cannot result in the filing of a criminal compliant.

    Instead he admonishes us that only Congress has the Constitutional authority to act on his investigation information.

    To that end within the next two weeks he is meeting in conference with a number of unnamed national “VIP’s” who he expects will call on Congress to investigate Barack Obama’s forged birth certificate.

    Any day now

    I think he wore out his best pair of tap shoes on this one.

  55. avatar
    alg May 23, 2013 at 3:58 pm #

    CarlOrcas: “I think he wore out his best pair of tap shoes on this one.”

    That’s clearly the case. Of course, now he’ll have Congress to blame for not following through on his “evidence.” I am really curious about who his so-called “VIP’s” are. Seems like we should be inviting folks to speculate for the fun of it. Pastor Manning? Joseph Farrah? Dzhokhar Tsarnaev? O.J. Simpson?

  56. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 23, 2013 at 4:07 pm #

    alg: Most noteworthy is that Zullo admits his so-called “cold case posse investigation” will not and cannot result in the filing of a criminal compliant.

    But how can that be? Previously in April they claimed they were going pushing towards a criminal trial and scoffed at orly’s civil suits. So in other words absolutely nothing will come of this.

  57. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2013 at 4:15 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: But how can that be?

    According to Zullo – the every moving target – that’s always been the case. It’s everyone else’s fault that they don’t understand what he has said.

    But….never fear……every thing will be clear once he meets with the VIPs…..maybe.

  58. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 23, 2013 at 4:44 pm #

    alg:
    Just listened to Zullo’s latest comedy routine with Carl Gallups.

    Most noteworthy is that Zullo admits his so-called “cold case posse investigation” will not and cannot result in the filing of a criminal compliant.

    Instead he admonishes us that only Congress has the Constitutional authority to act on his investigation information.

    To that end within the next two weeks he is meeting in conference with a number of unnamed national “VIP’s” who he expects will call on Congress to investigate Barack Obama’s forged birth certificate.

    Any day now

    Boy, Zullo’s fans are going to hit the ceiling over that admission…they will be boiling. No question.

    So the Orly fans will scream at Zullo and the Zullo fans will scream at Orly, and I hope the two of them sue each other, just so that we can see the craziest court case in US history.

  59. avatar
    G May 23, 2013 at 9:05 pm #

    Sounds like some of the donor suckers to the CCP are now starting to demand just that – wanting to sue Arpaio and Zullo for their money back plus damages, due to CPP inaction.

    And Mad Orly seems to be threatening to sue everyone who says or reports something she doesn’t like…again. She’s clearly in another one of her heightened manic paranoia phases.

    You’ll have to check out Patrick’s latest report of events in BIrtheristan, just out today:

    http://badfiction.typepad.com/badfiction/2013/05/dispatches-from-birtherstan-18-22-may-2013.html

    It has quite a lot of updates which touch upon that very theme you mentioned…

    Kiwiwriter: So the Orly fans will scream at Zullo and the Zullo fans will scream at Orly, and I hope the two of them sue each other, just so that we can see the craziest court case in US history.

  60. avatar
    Ben P. May 24, 2013 at 7:05 am #

    Do you guys ever wonder if Arpaio, in his dark little lump of coal that passes for a heart, regrets the whole ‘use the Cold Case Posse’s grand-sounding-name-but-unofficial-status as a political defense against the DoJ by loaning it out to the Birther cause’ strategy? Sometimes I think he thought ‘I can control this’. But he can’t.

  61. avatar
    Majority Will May 24, 2013 at 8:27 am #

    Ben P.:
    Do you guys ever wonder if Arpaio, in his dark little lump of coal that passes for a heart, regrets the whole ‘use the Cold Case Posse’s grand-sounding-name-but-unofficial-status as a political defense against the DoJ by loaning it out to the Birther cause’ strategy? Sometimes I think he thought ‘I can control this’. But he can’t.

    My impression is that his ego considers itself impervious to attack and immortal. Similar to other egomaniacal bigots, he is incapable of shame, remorse or empathy.

  62. avatar
    JPotter May 24, 2013 at 9:37 am #

    G: Sounds like some of the donor suckers to the CCP are now starting to demand just that – wanting to sue Arpaio and Zullo for their money back plus damages, due to CPP inaction.

    Now that’s a decision I would love to read! “Court to Decide Between Dumb and Dumber….”

    I assume such a suit, if not thrown out immediately, would take the form of a charity fraud case. Best possible outcome: the CCCP being forced to account for it use of funds, to demonstrate they actually used donations for their intended purposes. No doubt their accounting is just as incompetent as everything else they do.

    Unless they’re dumb enough to admit to using their funds on hookers and blow (and hey, they already admitted to spending MCSO cash, and hoping to use the inevitable flood of CCCP donations to cover it!), it comes down to idiots giving cash to obvious shysters. The CCCP sold its dupes the feeling that They Had Done Something About It. Any reasonable person would have recognized the scam.

    The people of Maricopa County on the other hand, should be very interested in an accounting of CCCP donations. Should.

  63. avatar
    G May 24, 2013 at 1:19 pm #

    That would be my impression too.

    Majority Will: My impression is that his ego considers itself impervious to attack and immortal. Similar to other egomaniacal bigots, he is incapable of shame, remorse or empathy.

  64. avatar
    G May 24, 2013 at 1:27 pm #

    Yeah, I don’t expect such a suit to succeed for the dupes that were suckers enough to give their donations to such an obvious scam. But if anyone is capable of filing frivolous lawsuits and wasting court time attacking one another, it is the BIrther flock.

    I too would be more interested in the CCP accounting, where there might be some legitimate concern. There are claims from one of the CCP folks that they were provided with a vehicle and real deputies on the clock as escorts. If true, those are taxpayer funded resources being allocated to their disposal. But I don’t see a civil case as the way to pursue and uncover that type of possible financial abuse either…

    JPotter: Now that’s a decision I would love to read! “Court to Decide Between Dumb and Dumber….”

    Unless they’re dumb enough to admit to using their funds on hookers and blow (and hey, they already admitted to spending MCSO cash, and hoping to use the inevitable flood of CCCP donations to cover it!), it comes down to idiots giving cash to obvious shysters. The CCCP sold its dupes the feeling that They Had Done Something About It. Any reasonable person would have recognized the scam.

    The people of Maricopa County on the other hand, should be very interested in an accounting of CCCP donations. Should.

  65. avatar
    Keith May 24, 2013 at 9:29 pm #

    Ben P.:
    Do you guys ever wonder if Arpaio, in his dark little lump of coal that passes for a heart, regrets the whole ‘use the Cold Case Posse’s grand-sounding-name-but-unofficial-status as a political defense against the DoJ by loaning it out to the Birther cause’ strategy? Sometimes I think he thought ‘I can control this’. But he can’t.

    Of course he does. He got ambushed by the whole thing in the first place and tried to placate them when he said he’d look into it. For most groups like this that would be enough to get them off his back, but these guys kept asking questions and he couldn’t just tell his core constituency to go to hell during an election, not with the Feds breathing down his neck at the same time. So he invented the Cold Case Posse and exploited it as well as he could during the election.

    You will notice that whatever the CCP did, it wasn’t anything to do with a Police investigation in any way, shape, or form. It was one publicity stunt after another. Full stop. You will also notice that Arpaio dropped the whole thing like a hot potato as soon as the election was over.

    The CCP did its job of keeping the loonies on side during the election, but the Sheriff, being an Eastern Carpetbagger after all, doesn’t realize that you don’t just jump on an unbroken horse and expect it to take you where you are going. You are going to have a wild ride if you do, and you can be sure the horse will do more damage to you that you to it,.

  66. avatar
    Rickey May 25, 2013 at 2:27 am #

    A Federal Judge ruled on Friday that Arpaio and the MCSO have engaged in racial profiling.

    http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/2013/05/joe_arpaios_doomsday_arpaio_lo.php

  67. avatar
    nbc May 25, 2013 at 3:00 am #

    Rickey: A Federal Judge ruled on Friday that Arpaio and the MCSO have engaged in racial profiling.

    Never saw that one coming…

  68. avatar
    G May 25, 2013 at 3:17 pm #

    Yeah, your entire synopsis is my impression of what happened and how it went down too.

    Keith: Of course he does. He got ambushed by the whole thing in the first place and tried to placate them when he said he’d look into it. For most groups like this that would be enough to get them off his back, but these guys kept asking questions and he couldn’t just tell his core constituency to go to hell during an election, not with the Feds breathing down his neck at the same time. So he invented the Cold Case Posse and exploited it as well as he could during the election.

    You will notice that whatever the CCP did, it wasn’t anything to do with a Police investigation in any way, shape, or form. It was one publicity stunt after another. Full stop. You will also notice that Arpaio dropped the whole thing like a hot potato as soon as the election was over.

    The CCP did its job of keeping the loonies on side during the election, but the Sheriff, being an Eastern Carpetbagger after all, doesn’t realize that you don’t just jump on an unbroken horse and expect it to take you where you are going. You are going to have a wild ride if you do, and you can be sure the horse will do more damage to you that you to it,.

  69. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 25, 2013 at 3:21 pm #

    Should be interesting what happens next with Arpaio.

  70. avatar
    Garrett June 1, 2013 at 11:04 pm #

    For a case that is such a bit of nonsense, as you like to suggest, you sure are obsessed.

    Where is the link to the affidavit that was supposed to be included in this story?

    BTW, I can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the PDF file has been MANUALLY manipulated.

  71. avatar
    Garrett June 1, 2013 at 11:06 pm #

    And the birther displeasure is largely the result of people like you who tear down Zullo and his investigation and make them feel like it needs to provide more fruit than is realistic. It’s an uphill battle that will continue to be waged regardless of how people like you like to mock those with legitimate questions.

  72. avatar
    Garrett June 1, 2013 at 11:17 pm #

    BTW, nothing is going to happen to Arpaio. This wasn’t a criminal case and no charges will be filed. The whole accusation is ridiculous honestly. He lives in a county with huge amounts of illegal aliens and was elected partly to enforce the immigration laws that were being largely ignored. Until his status as a federal immigration enforcer was revoked last year, partly for political reasons and blow back for daring to question Obama’s documents, these policies were completely legal. He will simply use this to highlight the double standard employed by the Federal government.

    The latest recall effort failed, he isn’t going anywhere.

  73. avatar
    Garrett June 1, 2013 at 11:19 pm #

    Keith: Of course he does. He got ambushed by the whole thing in the first place and tried to placate them when he said he’d look into it. For most groups like this that would be enough to get them off his back, but these guys kept asking questions and he couldn’t just tell his core constituency to go to hell during an election, not with the Feds breathing down his neck at the same time. So he invented the Cold Case Posse and exploited it as well as he could during the election.

    You will notice that whatever the CCP did, it wasn’t anything to do with a Police investigation in any way, shape, or form. It was one publicity stunt after another. Full stop. You will also notice that Arpaio dropped the whole thing like a hot potato as soon as the election was over.

    The CCP did its job of keeping the loonies on side during the election, but the Sheriff, being an Eastern Carpetbagger after all, doesn’t realize that you don’t just jump on an unbroken horse and expect it to take you where you are going. You are going to have a wild ride if you do, and you can be sure the horse will do more damage to you that you to it,.

    Lol…do you actually believe this? I’ve personally met all involved and can assure you that he is not placating anyone. This has caused him more damage than advantage politically. You’d have to be naive to think otherwise.

  74. avatar
    Garrett June 1, 2013 at 11:21 pm #

    Kiwiwriter:
    Well, there is no honor among Birthers, they are frustrated and furious that the Usurper was not only elected but re-elected, their lawsuits all fail, their mainstream media interviews are run as comedy sketches that end with the interviewer calling them an idiot in front of millions of viewers, they are ridiculed, pranked, and harassed on an hourly basis by six-year-olds of all ages, and their “demonstrations” get no traction, as Orly herself found out on Inauguration Day.

    So I’m not surprised they are in an increasingly furious state, and angrily nattering about violence and revolution. It’s the last resort…some birther, quoted on Fogbow, said something I actually agree with, which proves that stopped clocks are right occasionally:

    He said that talk of revolution and violence is that of teenagers, but the actual revolution and violence has to be conducted by adults, and he was, sadly, right. The Hitler Youth didn’t invade Poland and France until they were young adults, serving in the Wehrmacht. Nor did they butcher the Jews as teenagers — they had to grow up to join the SS first.

    So the birthers who prattle about incipient revolution are overheated teenagers of a variety of ages. The danger is that some of these hopeless romantics, who see themselves storming a barricade and gunning down dozens of Obot Marines, may actually try to turn their ghastly fantasies into reality, and wind up butchering innocents.

    Interestingly, I think they will attack each other first…to root out the “traitors.”

    Ah..the ever witty conservatives as Nazi’s analogy. Brilliant!

  75. avatar
    Garrett June 1, 2013 at 11:22 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: Boy, Zullo’s fans are going to hit the ceiling over that admission…they will be boiling. No question.

    So the Orly fans will scream at Zullo and the Zullo fans will scream at Orly, and I hope the two of them sue each other, just so that we can see the craziest court case in US history.

    Anybody with half a brain knew this long ago..no surprises there. Sure, many of the followers of the birther issue have unrealistic expectations. Some of them are even a little crazy…that goes with any movement. But Zullo is completely right from a legal standpoint, so you are only pointing out his lack of bias and understanding of the legal system.

  76. avatar
    Garrett June 1, 2013 at 11:24 pm #

    CarlOrcas: He’s back!! More nonsense from Zullo today on Gallups program:

    http://www.ppsimmons.blogspot.com/2013/05/breaking-new-revelation-mike-zullo.html

    So far nothing new….other than Zullo saying he won’t arrest the President if he comes to Phoenix.

    Also coming……a “Surprise Sneak Peek” at what is coming.

    Be still my heart.

    You guys obviously have some mental condition. You feign lack of interest yet follow every single development then leap to the boards to discuss it. As a “birther” who has even participated in the investigation, I can say that you spend more time on this issue than I do…lol. Sort of ironic, enlightening and sad really. ;)

  77. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 1, 2013 at 11:30 pm #

    Garrett: You guys obviously have some mental condition. You feign lack of interest yet follow every single development then leap to the boards to discuss it. As a “birther” who has even participated in the investigation, I can say that you spend more time on this issue than I do…lol. Sort of ironic, enlightening and sad really.

    Very strange Garrett. You’ve jumped into a thread that hadn’t seen a message for a week and that you never participated in. Very strange.

    And, for the record, I’ve never said I wasn’t interested. Quite the opposite in fact. I find the whole phenomenon fascinating.

  78. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 1, 2013 at 11:36 pm #

    Garrett: Anybody with half a brain knew this long ago..no surprises there. Sure, many of the followers of the birther issue have unrealistic expectations. Some of them are even a little crazy…that goes with any movement. But Zullo is completely right from a legal standpoint, so you are only pointing out his lack of bias and understanding of the legal system.

    A “movement”? When did it stop being an investigation and exactly what is Zullo’s authority to front a “movement” under the banner of the MCSO?

  79. avatar
    Yoda June 1, 2013 at 11:39 pm #

    Garrett: Lol…do you actually believe this? I’ve personally met all involved and can assure you that he is not placating anyone. This has caused him more damage than advantage politically. You’d have to be naive to think otherwise.

    Garrett, you lost what little credibility you had when you refused to denounce Zullo after he misrepresented your conclusions.

  80. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 1, 2013 at 11:41 pm #

    Garrett: Until his status as a federal immigration enforcer was revoked last year, partly for political reasons and blow back for daring to question Obama’s documents, these policies were completely legal.

    If that’s true….perfectly legal until last year…..then why did the Bush administration initiate the case in 2007?

  81. avatar
    Garrett June 1, 2013 at 11:42 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Very strange Garrett. You’ve jumped into a thread that hadn’t seen a message for a week and that you never participated in. Very strange.

    And, for the record, I’ve never said I wasn’t interested. Quite the opposite in fact. I find the whole phenomenon fascinating.

    Lol…I stumbled onto this discussion while trying to find a copy of Zullo’s recent Alabama affidavit. Found it funny and decided to join in.

  82. avatar
    Garrett June 1, 2013 at 11:44 pm #

    Yoda: Garrett, you lost what little credibility you had when you refused to denounce Zullo after he misrepresented your conclusions.

    What did he misrepresent? Not sure what point you are exactly referring to. Most likely it was a failure to properly understand my argument and not intentional misrepresentation. I’ve discussed my opinions with him and told him precisely what I’m prepared to back up if asked personally. Outside of that, he’s a grown man and can say what he wants as long as he doesn’t intentionally misquote me.

  83. avatar
    Keith June 1, 2013 at 11:45 pm #

    Garrett: Lol…do you actually believe this? I’ve personally met all involved and can assure you that he is not placating anyone. This has caused him more damage than advantage politically. You’d have to be naive to think otherwise.

    Yes, I do believe it. You may notice that the last paragraph that you quoted from me essentially says that it costs him more damage than any advantage. Arpaio got involved with the deranged lunatics more or less accidentally, and then cynically decided he could make it work for him. He was bleeding support and saw a chance to lock down a small segment. Short term. small advantage. National publicity. Access to lunatics pocketbooks.

    What does he care about the long term damage? What does he care about the lunatics now? He doesn’t need them anymore. He knows it was his last election.

  84. avatar
    Garrett June 1, 2013 at 11:46 pm #

    CarlOrcas: If that’s true….perfectly legal until last year…..then why did the Bush administration initiate the case in 2007?

    You guys definitely rehearse the talking points. :)

    Do you think the entire investigation was about one single legal issue and not a bit more complex? Regardless…I don’t care a whole lot either way. I think it’s a travesty of justice if anything comes of it, but in the end…I live in TX. Meh…

  85. avatar
    Garrett June 1, 2013 at 11:48 pm #

    Keith: Yes, I do believe it. You may notice that the last paragraph that you quoted from me essentially says that it costs him more damage than any advantage. Arpaio got involved with the deranged lunatics more or less accidentally, and then cynically decided he could make it work for him. He was bleeding support and saw a chance to lock down a small segment. Short term. small advantage. National publicity. Access to lunatics pocketbooks.

    What does he care about the long term damage? What does he care about the lunatics now? He doesn’t need them anymore. He knows it was his last election.

    So access to one group of lunatic’s pocketbooks might not potentially alienate other lunatics and their pocketbooks? Rock solid logic.

  86. avatar
    Yoda June 1, 2013 at 11:50 pm #

    Garrett: What did he misrepresent? Not sure what point you are exactly referring to. Most likely it was a failure to properly understand my argument and not intentional misrepresentation. I’ve discussed my opinions with him and told him precisely what I’m prepared to back up if asked personally. Outside of that, he’s a grown man and can say what he wants as long as he doesn’t intentionally misquote me.

    You came to the conclusion that the pdf was manipulated, Zullo said you confirmed that it was forged. That is an outright lie. You know that Zullo is an unrepentant liar and won’t come out and say it in order to further your agenda.

  87. avatar
    Yoda June 1, 2013 at 11:52 pm #

    Garrett: You guys definitely rehearse the talking points.

    Do you think the entire investigation was about one single legal issue and not a bit more complex? Regardless…I don’t care a whole lot either way. I think it’s a travesty of justice if anything comes of it, but in the end…I live in TX. Meh…

    There never really was an investigation.

  88. avatar
    Garrett June 1, 2013 at 11:53 pm #

    Yoda: You came to the conclusion that the pdf was manipulated,Zullo said you confirmed that it was forged.That is an outright lie.You know that Zullo is an unrepentant liar and won’t come out and say it in order to further your agenda.

    Yoda: You came to the conclusion that the pdf was manipulated,Zullo said you confirmed that it was forged.That is an outright lie.You know that Zullo is an unrepentant liar and won’t come out and say it in order to further your agenda.

    I made a technical statement. He made a legal statement. Pretty straightforward. From a legal standpoint, if a document was manually manipulated then presented as a representation of an official document…it was forged. That is his legal opinion.

  89. avatar
    Yoda June 1, 2013 at 11:55 pm #

    Garrett:
    I made a technical statement. He made a legal statement. Pretty straightforward. From a legal standpoint, if a document was manually manipulated then presented as a representation of an official document…it was forged. That is his legal opinion.

    He lied about your conclusions and you continue to defend him. You have zero credibility. Frankly, I can and have identified dozens of times he lied.

    And no, that is not straightforward. Huge difference.

  90. avatar
    Garrett June 1, 2013 at 11:56 pm #

    Yoda: He lied about your conclusions and you continue to defend him.You have zero credibility.Frankly, I can and have identified dozens of times he lied.

    If that’s your definition of a lie, I’m not surprised. :)

    I explained what it meant, and I’ve talked to him about it personally, yet you ignore any contrary evidence and stubbornly insist he lied and use that to build an attack against both myself and him. Cute.

  91. avatar
    Yoda June 1, 2013 at 11:58 pm #

    Garrett: If that’s your definition of a lie, I’m not surprised.

    I explained what it meant, and I’ve talked to him about it personally, yet you ignore any contrary evidence and stubbornly insist he lied and use that to build an attack against both myself and him. Cute.

    He lied. You refuse to denounce that. You have no credibility.

  92. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:02 am #

    Yoda: He lied.You refuse to denounce that.You have no credibility.

    Rinse and repeat.

    How would you legally classify the intentional manipulation of what is purported to be a copy of an official document, presented as evidence of eligibility to the highest office in the country.

    Even if done to punk birthers…still is a felony. I tend to agree with him. If you have a different legal opinion, fine. Insults aren’t needed though and only reflect on your ability to handle your emotions…or lack thereof.

  93. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 2, 2013 at 12:06 am #

    Garrett: You guys definitely rehearse the talking points.

    Do you think the entire investigation was about one single legal issue and not a bit more complex? Regardless…I don’t care a whole lot either way. I think it’s a travesty of justice if anything comes of it, but in the end…I live in TX. Meh…

    I’m talking about the civil case that was just finalized.

    What are you talking about?

  94. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:06 am #

    First of all, you know nothing about the law. Even assuming it was completely fabricated no crime was committed. It was never presented as evidence of anything. That is something Zullo doesn’t quite get.

    I wouldn’t call it anything unless I could compare it the original. I didn’t insult anyone. I stated a fact. You have no credibility. You seem to be pretty thin skinned if you think that was an insult.

  95. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:12 am #

    Garrett, a pdf version of a document is not a document and could not be used as evidence. Exactly where was it offered as proof of eligibility?

    How does the pdf differ from the original document?

  96. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:14 am #

    CarlOrcas: I’m talking about the civil case that was just finalized.

    What are you talking about?

    I’m saying that there was more involved in the civil case than just the particular policies that I earlier referred to. Regardless, it makes little difference. As you mentioned…it was a civil case. If someone feels strongly enough that he’s violating the law, file criminal charges. You guys seem to like to point out how ineffective something is unless charges are filed. I guess that means this civil case is a joke as well. Tit for tat…and all of that.

  97. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:16 am #

    Yoda:
    First of all, you know nothing about the law.Even assuming it was completely fabricated no crime was committed.It was never presented as evidence of anything.That is something Zullo doesn’t quite get.

    I wouldn’t call it anything unless I could compare it the original.I didn’t insult anyone.I stated a fact.You have no credibility.You seem to be pretty thin skinned if you think that was an insult.

    How do you know what I do and don’t know of the law? I can see..based on your thought process…how you reach such flawed conclusions.

    So as long as he presents no original, it’s okay to use the manipulated one in court cases to “prove” US birth? Come on…you can’t believe what you are saying.

  98. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:18 am #

    Yoda:
    Garrett, a pdf version of a document is not a document and could not be used as evidence.Exactly where was it offered as proof of eligibility?

    How does the pdf differ from the original document?

    It’s been presented by Obama’s lawyers in at least 2 or 3 court cases. It was shown to the US public because of growing doubts about it’s existence. The former is certainly an example of it being used as legal proof. The latter could certainly be argued to be.

  99. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:19 am #

    Garrett: How do you know what I do and don’t know of the law? I can see..based on your thought process…how you reach such flawed conclusions.

    So as long as he presents no original, it’s okay to use the manipulated one in court cases to “prove” US birth? Come on…you can’t believe what you are saying.

    Again, you prove you don’t know anything about the law. And pdf was never offered into evidence to prove US birth. So exactly what are you talking about?

  100. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 2, 2013 at 12:20 am #

    Garrett: I’m saying that there was more involved in the civil case than just the particular policies that I earlier referred to. Regardless,it makes little difference. As you mentioned…it was a civil case. If someone feels strongly enough that he’s violating the law, file criminal charges. You guys seem to like to point out how ineffective something is unless charges are filed. I guess that means this civil case is a joke as well. Tit for tat…and all of that.

    Actually the sheriff’s policies were exactly what the suit was about and exactly why the fed’s withdrew his street authority to enforce immigration laws.

    The civil case is definitely not a joke and may well end up with a monitor running a big chunk of the MCSO for a very long time.

  101. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:21 am #

    Garrett: It’s been presented by Obama’s lawyers in at least 2 or 3 court cases. It was shown to the US public because of growing doubts about it’s existence. The former is certainly an example of it being used as legal proof. The latter could certainly be argued to be.

    It was never offered to prove US birth. And no, showing it to the public is not using it as legal proof. You are grasping at straws again.

  102. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:21 am #

    Yoda:
    Garrett, a pdf version of a document is not a document and could not be used as evidence.Exactly where was it offered as proof of eligibility?

    How does the pdf differ from the original document?

    There is no way to say what may or may not be different based on the technical evidence. All I can tell you is that someone seriously manipulated this document. From there it is your supposition against mine. Could nothing have been changed…sure. Could something have been changed…sure. Which would be a better reason to manipulate then becomes the logical question.

    And how about a scenario where a BC with amendments exists on file. Instead of showing what was ammended, remove any doubt and “combine” them into one document that matches the documents on record? Who knows. Doesn’t matter…just show the original and be done with it.

  103. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:22 am #

    Given your inability to get facts straight, I have to wonder about everything you say.

  104. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:23 am #

    CarlOrcas: Actually the sheriff’s policies were exactly what the suit was about and exactly why the fed’s withdrew his street authority to enforce immigration laws.

    The civil case is definitely not a joke and may well end up with a monitor running a big chunk of the MCSO for a very long time.

    You still aren’t getting my point. Some of the policies that were involved in the civil investigation were perfectly legal before the revocation of his federal immigration enforcement status…but not all. Get it?

  105. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:23 am #

    Yoda: It was never offered to prove US birth.And no, showing it to the public is not using it as legal proof.You are grasping at straws again.

    Sure it was. And thanks for your expert opinion.

  106. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 2, 2013 at 12:24 am #

    Garrett: It’s been presented by Obama’s lawyers in at least 2 or 3 court cases. It was shown to the US public because of growing doubts about it’s existence. The former is certainly an example of it being used as legal proof. The latter could certainly be argued to be.

    Please clairfy: Are you saying the document seen and handled by reporters at the White House was a PDF and not the original certified certificate acquired from Hawaii?

  107. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:24 am #

    Yoda: It was never offered to prove US birth.And no, showing it to the public is not using it as legal proof.You are grasping at straws again.

    The court case was about POTUS eligibility. They showed the BC to establish this. To be eligible you must be born in the US. 1 + 1 = ?

  108. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:25 am #

    Garrett: There is no way to say what may or may not be different based on the technical evidence. All I can tell you is that someone seriously manipulated this document. From there it is your supposition against mine. Could nothing have been changed…sure. Could something have been changed…sure. Which would be a better reason to manipulate then becomes the logical question.

    And how about a scenario where a BC with amendments exists on file. Instead of showing what was ammended, remove any doubt and “combine” them into one document that matches the documents on record? Who knows. Doesn’t matter…just show the original and be done with it.

    It is not a supposition on my part. It is a question of sufficiency of evidence. Zullo has no evidence that the pdf differs from the original at all and you and both know that.

  109. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:25 am #

    I notice you guys just gloss over the fact that I found the document was manually manipulated. Let’s discuss that. Do you disagree? Do you find that fact insignificant given the seriousness of the entire issue? SMH

  110. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:26 am #

    Garrett: The court case was about POTUS eligibility. They showed the BC to establish this. To be eligible you must be born in the US. 1 + 1 = ?

    Absolutely wrong. It was never introduced by the President’s attorneys to show proof of US birth. I challenge you to support that statement.

  111. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 2, 2013 at 12:26 am #

    Garrett: You still aren’t getting my point. Some of the policies that were involved in the civil investigation were perfectly legal before the revocation of his federal immigration enforcement status…but not all. Get it?

    No. Why don’t you explain it: Which policies were okay before 2011?

  112. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:26 am #

    Yoda: It is not a supposition on my part.It is a question of sufficiency of evidence.Zullo has no evidence that the pdf differs from the original at all and you and both know that.

    So your position is that as long as no original is shown, he doesn’t have to prove that the one offered is legitimate, yet can use it as de facto evidence of his eligibility to the highest office in the country? Really!?

    And I would disagree that he has NO evidence. You don’t know everything he knows.

  113. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:27 am #

    CarlOrcas: No. Why don’t you explain it: Which policies were okay before 2011?

    No I don’t care to explain. I’m sure Arpaio will do so himself. Since when am I his mouthpiece?

  114. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:29 am #

    Garrett:
    I notice you guys just gloss over the fact that I found the document was manually manipulated. Let’s discuss that. Do you disagree? Do you find that fact insignificant given the seriousness of the entire issue? SMH

    Even assuming your conclusions are correct, which is highly suspect, there is a difference between manipulated and changed. Besides, Hawaii stands behind the LFBC and has confirmed it several times. That is entitled to full faith and credit–ever hear of it?

  115. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:29 am #

    Yoda: Absolutely wrong.It was never introduced by the President’s attorneys to show proof of US birth.I challenge you to support that statement.

    I notice you don’t defend the legitimacy of the document but simply point to legal technicalities that don’t require it to be legitimate…interesting. And I disagree with your technicality. It wasn’t offered to the court as an example of modern scanning technology.

  116. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:30 am #

    Garrett: So your position is that as long as no original is shown, he doesn’t have to prove that the one offered is legitimate, yet can use it as de facto evidence of his eligibility to the highest office in the country? Really!?

    And I would disagree that he has NO evidence. You don’t know everything he knows.

    He has never seen the original. That is all I need to know

  117. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:31 am #

    Yoda: He has never seen the original.That is all I need to know

    The certified copy of the COLB was sufficient and legal proof. The President has no obligation to prove anything to your personal satisfaction.

  118. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:33 am #

    Garrett: I notice you don’t defend the legitimacy of the document but simply point to legal technicalities that don’t require it to be legitimate…interesting. And I disagree with your technicality. It wasn’t offered to the court as an example of modern scanning technology.

    The US Constitution is not a technicality. The full faith and credit clause is the foundation of modern society. Without it, your driver’s license would be meaningless.

  119. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:33 am #

    Yoda: Even assuming your conclusions are correct, which is highly suspect, there is a difference between manipulated and changed.Besides, Hawaii stands behind the LFBC and has confirmed it several times.That is entitled to full faith and credit–ever hear of it?

    I disagree.They haven’t verified the actual document…only the information on it. See my previous example of an amended document and how it relates to the truth of the statements made to date by HI officials. For any purpose other than POTUS eligibility, the difference would be inconsequential. Here, many would like to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt.

    Not to mention, the full faith and credit clause doesn’t require that the statements be true. And I’m not completely sure it applies in this scenario. Plus…who made statements that has actually seen the document. I can think of 1 or 2 names only. And they aren’t the ones who’ve “verified” the document after the fact.

  120. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:34 am #

    Yoda: The US Constitution is not a technicality.The full faith and credit clause is the foundation of modern society.Without it, your driver’s license would be meaningless.

    Exactly. But does the full faith and credit clause extend to a manipulated scan of my driver’s license? Would be an interesting case.

  121. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:35 am #

    Yoda: He has never seen the original.That is all I need to know

    Nor has anyone who is in a place to determine his Constitutional eligibility. Personally, I’d like higher accountability than that for the man with the nuclear trigger.

  122. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:35 am #

    Garrett: Exactly. But does the full faith and credit clause extend to a manipulated scan of my driver’s license? Would be an interesting case.

    You forget that Hawaii certified both the COLB and the LFBC.

  123. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 2, 2013 at 12:36 am #

    Garrett: No I don’t care to explain. I’m sure Arpaio will do so himself. Since when am I his mouthpiece?

    No, Arpaio won’t be explaining anything. The case is over.

    Arpaio may appeal but no one thinks he will prevail.

  124. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:36 am #

    Garrett: I disagree.They haven’t verified the actual document…only the information on it. See my previous example of an amended document and how it relates to the truth of the statements made to date by HI officials. For any purpose other than POTUS eligibility, the difference would be inconsequential. Here, many would like to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt.

    Not to mention, the full faith and credit clause doesn’t require that the statements be true. And I’m not completely sure it applies in this scenario. Plus…who made statements that has actually seen the document. I can think of 1 or 2 names only. And they aren’t the ones who’ve “verified” the document after the fact.

    You can disagree all you want to. You would be and are wrong.

  125. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:37 am #

    Yoda: The certified copy of the COLB was sufficient and legal proof.The President has no obligation to prove anything to your personal satisfaction.

    Not correct. It’s proof that his birth was registered in Hawaii, not that it happened there. But you know this already. That is why the POTUS was eventually forced to release the PDF…the fact that the public began to understand the distinction.

  126. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:38 am #

    Yoda: You forget that Hawaii certified both the COLB and the LFBC.

    Not true. Prove this statement please.

  127. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:38 am #

    Garrett: Nor has anyone who is in a place to determine his Constitutional eligibility. Personally, I’d like higher accountability than that for the man with the nuclear trigger.

    Again, you are not entitled to proof to your personal satisfaction. Aside from everything else, the birther movement is steeped in the arrogance of the belief that they have the right to such proof.

  128. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:39 am #

    Yoda: You can disagree all you want to.You would be and are wrong.

    Stated like the arbiter of truth that you surely are.

  129. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:39 am #

    Garrett: Not true. Prove this statement please.

    You are kidding right?

  130. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:41 am #

    Yoda: Again, you are not entitled to proof to your personal satisfaction.Aside from everything else, the birther movement is steeped in the arrogance of the belief that they have the right to such proof.

    I never said I was entitled to proof. I simply said that I want it. And no, that’s not arrogance. That is what used to be the power of “We the People”.

    Employees have to prove their eligibility to work a minimum wage job. Would you support legislation to require the same of Presidential candidates?

  131. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:42 am #

    Yoda: You are kidding right?

    No. What do you mean? You see an internet image of a short-form with a stamp on it and you consider that official certification? As you, or others, have stated…you haven’t seen the original. You are only assuming it was certified.

  132. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:42 am #

    Garrett: Stated like the arbiter of truth that you surely are.

    Given that I understand the law and you do not, I suggest you ignore that at your own risk

  133. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:46 am #

    Yoda: Given that I understand the law and you do not, I suggest you ignore that at your own risk

    What exactly are you suggesting will happen if I don’t?

  134. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:47 am #

    Garrett: No. What do you mean? You see an internet image of a short-form with a stamp on it and you consider that official certification? As you, or others, have stated…you haven’t seen the original. You are only assuming it was certified.

    You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

  135. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:48 am #

    Yoda:
    http://www.google.com/search?q=certified+copy+of+colb+obama&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=r8yqUYGiLZTl4AOq_IHIBA&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1440&bih=809#facrc=_&imgrc=k0gRsPjsXVQmQM%3A%3BmSDNp5bbSFeLCM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fpassportsusa.com%252Fwp-content%252Fgallery%252Fpassportusa%252Fbarack_rear.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.tucsonsentinel.com%252Fnationworld%252Fcomments%252F041111_trump_obama%252F%3B3072%3B2304

    That is an image. You guys said yourself that it doesn’t mean anything without seeing the original. Double-standard much?

    For the record, I’ve seen no evidence that the short-form is anything but legit. But that is just an assumption. Nobody has seen the actual certified version. The image of that stamp doesn’t even have to be the back of the same document. And nobody really even knows who acquired and released the image on the internet. Do you?

  136. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 2, 2013 at 12:48 am #

    Garrett: Not true. Prove this statement please.

    Really? So what were those documents printed on green safety paper, with the nifty seal and all that on them, that Savannah Guthrie and other reporters saw and handled in the White House Press Room?

  137. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:48 am #

    Garrett: What exactly are you suggesting will happen if I don’t?

    You will remain ignorant and make stupid statements such as the ones you have been making about full faith and credit.

  138. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:49 am #

    Yoda: You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

    Cute little talking point. Doesn’t prove or disprove what you claim to be truth though.

  139. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:52 am #

    Garrett: That is in image. You guys said yourself that it doesn’t mean anything without seeing the original. Double-standard much?

    For the record, I’ve seen no evidence that the short-form is anything but legit. But that is just an assumption. Nobody has seen the actual certified version. The image of that stamp doesn’t even have to be the back of the same document. And nobody really even knows who acquired and released the image on the internet. Do you?

    I guess when you start from the assumption of a conspiracy you lose all perspective.. Multiple people have examined and photographed the certified COLB. There is no reason to suspect that they are lying. By the way, the certified COLB is the official version of BC under Hawaiian law.

  140. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:53 am #

    Garrett: Cute little talking point. Doesn’t prove or disprove what you claim to be truth though.

    I don’t deal in talking points. But you keep trying to change the facts. Zullo does the same thing.

  141. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:53 am #

    Yoda:
    http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/obama.html

    Do you sleep with that link under your pillow? I guess you have it in your favorite bar? How cute.

    I disagree on the legal weight of this webpage. First, a web page and link do not official legal certification make. And for good reason, it’s accuracy is unknown. For instance, the first line says..

    “On April 27, 2011 President Barack Obama posted a certified copy of his original Certificate of Live Birth”

    He did NOT post a “certified copy”. He posted a manipulated scan of a purported certified copy. Does the webmaster have info that we don’t? Not to mention, Obama didn’t post anything. If the document is found fraudulent, you guys will be the first to say that Obama never personally touched the document.

  142. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:54 am #

    Yoda: You will remain ignorant and make stupid statements such as the ones you have been making about full faith and credit.

    I’ll take my chances.

  143. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:55 am #

    I se

    Garrett: Do you sleep with that link under your pillow? I guess you have it in your favorite bar? How cute.

    I disagree on the legal weight of this webpage. First, a web page and link do not official legal certification make. And for good reason, it’s accuracy is unknown. For instance, the first line says..

    “On April 27, 2011 President Barack Obama posted a certified copy of his original Certificate of Live Birth”

    He did NOT post a “certified copy”. He posted a manipulated scan of a purported certified copy. Does the webmaster have info that we don’t? Not to mention, Obama didn’t post anything. If the document is found fraudulent, you guys will be the first to say that Obama never personally touched the document.

    i sent you that link to show that Hawaii issued two certified copies of the lfbc to the President. Do you dispute that?

  144. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 2, 2013 at 12:56 am #

    Garrett: Cute little talking point. Doesn’t prove or disprove what you claim to be truth though.

    For the sake of discussion what would you have to see to feel comfortable that you knew the “truth” about Obama’s birth in Hawaii?

  145. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 12:56 am #

    Yoda: I guess when you start from the assumption of a conspiracy you lose all perspective..Multiple people have examined and photographed the certified COLB.There is no reason to suspect that they are lying.By the way, the certified COLB is the official version of BC under Hawaiian law.

    I haven’t assumed anything. Contrarily you have ASSUMED that what was posted on the WH website is a simple scan of the certified copy. How can you prove that? Let’s not deal in assumptions.

    I know of one person who photographed the certified copy. Name the others please. And I can show you how that photo differs from the PDF file.

    In fact, I can show you evidence that the PDF was not actually scanned. But you aren’t interested in anything but assumptions based on faith.

  146. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:56 am #

    Garrett: I’ll take my chances.

    You have already made a fool of yourself. Are you sure you want to continue along the same lines?

  147. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 12:58 am #

    Garrett: I haven’t assumed anything. Contrarily you have ASSUMED that what was posted on the WH website is a simple scan of the certified copy. How can you prove that? Let’s not deal in assumptions.

    I know of one person who photographed the certified copy. Name the others please. And I can show you how that photo differs from the PDF file.

    In fact, I can show you evidence that the PDF was not actually scanned. But you aren’t interested in anything but assumptions based on faith.

    I was referring to the COLB.

    I don’t make assumptions. I only deal in evidence.

  148. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:00 am #

    Garrett do you dispute that Hawaii issued two certified copies of the lfbc to the President?

  149. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:00 am #

    CarlOrcas: For the sake of discussion what would you have to see to feel comfortable that you knew the “truth”?

    Show Zullo the original binder. He’ll have to admit he was wrong, and we can all move on. Not a difficult thing to do.

  150. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:01 am #

    Yoda: You have already made a fool of yourself.Are you sure you want to continue along the same lines?

    If you say so.

  151. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:03 am #

    Garrett: Show Zullo the original binder. He’ll have to admit he was wrong, and we can all move on. Not a difficult thing to do.

    The President should not capitulate to a small but vocal fringe group which demands proof to its satisfaction. Besides, Corsi already set up the next lie on that.

  152. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:03 am #

    Yoda:
    I se

    i sent you that link to show that Hawaii issued two certified copies of the lfbc to the President.Do you dispute that?

    I don’t question that Hawaii claims to have released two certified copies of his long-form in 2011 and have since claimed that the information on the documents on file matches what was released.

    And they didn’t send them. Obama’s lawyer flew to HI to pick up two physical document, just to convert them to digital form and post them online. Why not just scan and email? Typical waste of tax payer money I guess. :)

  153. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:03 am #

    Garrett: If you say so.

    It is not me who said it, it was your own comments.

  154. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 2, 2013 at 1:04 am #

    Garrett: Show Zullo the original binder. He’ll have to admit he was wrong, and we can all move on. Not a difficult thing to do.

    How would Zullo (or you) determine that the sheet in the “original binder” is okay?

  155. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:04 am #

    Yoda: The President should not capitulate to a small but vocal fringe group which demands proof to its satisfaction.Besides, Corsi already set up the next lie on that.

    It isn’t capitulation to prove you are eligible. It is a crack in our system that allows entrance without said proof. Legislation for proof will come about once Obama is out of office and you guys will look foolish in history for saying we are basically radicals for wanting it. Que sera…

  156. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:04 am #

    Do you dispute that Hawaii issued two certified copies of the lfbc to the President?

  157. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:06 am #

    Garrett: It isn’t capitulation to prove you are eligible. It is a crack in our system that allows entrance without said proof. Legislation for proof will come about once Obama is out of office and you guys will look foolish in history for saying we are basically radicals for wanting it. Que sera…

    Of course it is. He produced a certified copy of the COLB and a certified copy of the lfbc. Go pound sand.

  158. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 2, 2013 at 1:06 am #

    Garrett: . Why not just scan and email? Typical waste of tax payer money I guess. :)

    Because then they wouldn’t have real, legal documents. They’d just have images on a computer screen. But you knew that……didn’t you?

  159. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:08 am #

    Is Hawaii lying when it says that it issued two certified copies of lfbc to the president?

  160. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:10 am #

    It is a simple question Garrett, did they issue the two certified copies of the lfbc or not?

  161. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:14 am #

    CarlOrcas: How would Zullo (or you) determine that the sheet in the “original binder” is okay?

    I would guess science or some such…lol. Were you expecting alchemy, perhaps some religious ceremony?

  162. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:15 am #

    CarlOrcas: Because then they wouldn’t have real, legal documents. They’d just have images on a computer screen. But you knew that……didn’t you?

    Real legal documents that they never present to a court of law when asked? Ok.

  163. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:15 am #

    If they didn’t issue the two certified copies, why did they say the did?

    If they did issue the two certified copies, why is there a link from the HDOH website to the pdf on the WH.gov page if the pdf was different from the lfbc?

  164. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 2, 2013 at 1:15 am #

    So you know a lot about scanned PDFs. How many false statements about PDFs did you count in Zullo’s presentation today?

    Garrett: He did NOT post a “certified copy”. He posted a manipulated scan of a purported certified copy.

  165. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:16 am #

    Garrett: Real legal documents that they never present to a court of law when asked? Ok.

    No court ever asked for the certified copy.

  166. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:16 am #

    Yoda:
    It is a simple question Garrett, did they issue the two certified copies of the lfbc or not?

    I’ve answered this already. They officially claim to have issued two certified copies…yes. I have to take that on faith. The question is if the certified copy matches the PDF and images released to reporters, or if the certified copy had amendments or irregularities, while still containing the same info, and was transformed into the PDF shown to the public.

  167. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:17 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    So you know a lot about scanned PDFs. How many false statements about PDFs did you count in Zullo’s presentation today?

    Haven’t watched it yet Kevin. Clue me in.

  168. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:18 am #

    Yoda: No court ever asked the certified copy.

    Nice diffusion. Why all the reluctance to use the actual certified copy? If a court asks for a copy, do they specify a copy of a certified copy? This is getting silly.

  169. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:18 am #

    Garrett: I’ve answered this already. They officially claim to have issued two certified copies…yes. I have to take that on faith. The question is if the certified copymatches the PDF and images released to reporters, or if the certified copy had amendments or irregularities, while still containing the same info, and was transformed into the PDF shown to the public.

    Why would they link to the WH.gov pdf if they were different?

  170. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:19 am #

    Yoda:
    If they didn’t issue the two certified copies, why did they say the did?

    If they did issue the two certified copies, why is there a link from the HDOH website to the pdf on the WH.gov page if the pdf was different from the lfbc?

    Either because it is in fact the same as the copy they certified, or to give the appearance that it is. Welcome to the last 2 years.

  171. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:20 am #

    Yoda: Why would they link to the WH.gov pdf if they were different?

    If the information on the pdf is identical to the information on the certified copies, where is the issue?

  172. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:22 am #

    Yoda: If the information on the pdf is identical to the information on the certified copies, where is the issue?

    Firstly, we have to assume they are telling the truth. Why not just release the original? But I actually do assume they are telling the truth. The question is was the birth originally registered a home birth and later amended to be doctor attended, including a doctor signature? Did the certified document make note of this but the PDF didn’t?

    Or, were the parents originally listed as somebody different then amended. Information matching is enough for 99.99% of the country. When you are a President, things are a bit different….like it or not.

    Were any of you interested in the Killian documents and whether Bush really was in the National Guard?

  173. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:22 am #

    Garrett: Either because it is in fact the same as the copy they certified, or to give the appearance that it is. Welcome to the last 2 years.

    You make a fantastic assumption to even include the second option. There is no rational reason to link them if they are different, knowing there is a possibility that the certified copy might be introduced into evidence.

  174. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:23 am #

    Yoda: Why would they link to the WH.gov pdf if they were different?

    Again, to give the appearance that they weren’t different. Did the webmaster ever personally see the document? The person who posted that online “certification” had no clue of it’s veracity. Just posted it.

  175. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:25 am #

    Garrett: Firstly, we have to assume they are telling the truth. Why not just release the original? But I actually do assume they are telling the truth. The question is was the birth originally registered a home birth and later amended to be doctor attended, including a doctor signature? Did the certified document make note of this but the PDF didn’t?

    Or, were the parents originally listed as somebody different then amended. Information matching is enough for 99.99% of the country. When you are a President, things are a bit different….like it or not.

    Were any of you interested in the Killian documents and whether Bush really was in the National Guard?

    Again, your ignorance of the law shows through. The original cannot be released under Hawaiian law.

  176. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:25 am #

    Garrett: Again, to give the appearance that they weren’t different. Did the webmaster ever personally see the document? The person who posted that online “certification” had no clue of it’s veracity. Just posted it.

    But Hawaii knows.

  177. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:26 am #

    Yoda: You make a fantastic assumption to even include the second option.There is no rational reason to link them if they are different, knowing there is a possibility that the certified copy might be introduced into evidence.

    I would agree that there are FEW rational reasons.

  178. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:26 am #

    Yoda: But Hawaii knows.

    Define “Hawaii” in this context. I think 2 people have personally seen the original documents…maybe three.

  179. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:27 am #

    Garrett, your scenario is so wildly fantastic, so as to be virtually impossible.

  180. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:28 am #

    Yoda: Again, your ignorance of the law shows through.The original cannot be released under Hawaiian law.

    Hmmm…does Federal law supercede HI law? Could Congress gain access? And thanks for the ignorance accusation. Fun with words!!

  181. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 2, 2013 at 1:29 am #

    Garrett: Real legal documents that they never present to a court of law when asked? Ok.

    What court “asked” the White House to present a certified birth certificate?

  182. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:30 am #

    Yoda:
    Garrett, your scenario is so wildly fantastic, so as to be virtually impossible.

    It is outside the norm for sure. But so are many of the facts of Obama’s past. And many of his claims about his early childhood narrative have proven to be false.

    “Virtually” is enough doubt for people in political power…unless your name is Obama. Imagine if this were Bush. We would have seen the original record years ago. Partly because he would have released it if there was concern and he had nothing to hide. And partly because the Dems and media would persecute him until he did. You know that to be fact.

  183. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:31 am #

    Garrett: Hmmm…does Federal law supercede HI law? Could Congress gain access? And thanks for the ignorance accusation. Fun with words!!

    It is not an accusation. There are no federal statutes that are applicable and Hawaii has the right to make its own rules.

  184. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:32 am #

    CarlOrcas: What court “asked” the White House to present a certified birth certificate?

    Lawyers asked…sometimes not in the correct manner, but a response still could have been given. Why ignore because of a technicality if you’ve nothing to hide.

    And regardless, the image was presented to a court.

  185. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 2, 2013 at 1:32 am #

    Garrett: I would guess science or some such…lol. Were you expecting alchemy, perhaps some religious ceremony?

    How about a straight answer…..from you?

  186. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:32 am #

    CarlOrcas: How about a straight answer…..from you?

    That was straight compared to my initial thoughts. ;)

    A court certified forensics expert of course. Science is fun!

  187. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:34 am #

    Garrett: It is outside the norm for sure. But so are many of the facts of Obama’s past. And many of his claims about his early childhood narrative have proven to be false.

    “Virtually” is enough doubt for people in political power…unless your name is Obama. Imagine if this were Bush. We would have seen the original record years ago. Partly because he would have released it if there was concern and he had nothing to hide. And partly because the Dems and media would persecute him until he did. You know that to be fact.

    No, it is not enough.

  188. avatar
    Rickey June 2, 2013 at 1:34 am #

    Garrett:
    And they didn’t send them. Obama’s lawyer flew to HI to pick up two physical document, just to convert them to digital form and post them online. Why not just scan and email? Typical waste of tax payer money I guess.

    No taxpayer money was involved. Taxpayers don’t pay the fees and expenses of the President’s personal lawyer.

  189. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:35 am #

    Yoda: It is not an accusation. There are no federal statutes that are applicable and Hawaii has the right to make its own rules.

    This is a Constitutional issue. If Congress decided they wanted to determine Obama’s Constitutional eligibility they could gain access to any document they wanted. The Constitution puts a strict requirement on this office of President. If Hawaii wants to hide behind a statute, fine. Don’t think that would play out well.

  190. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:35 am #

    Rickey: No taxpayer money was involved. Taxpayers don’t pay the fees and expenses of the President’s personal lawyer.

    I’ll sleep better tonight.

  191. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:37 am #

    Yoda: No, it is not enough.

    See Dan Rather and Killian documents. He had nothing but a forged letter. That was enough for the media.

    And it is the inconsistencies from Obama himself that even makes anyone question this. His Kenyan born biography claim, the Kenyan Parliament seeming to think he was born there. The disputed hospital..the list goes on. You bet people would take notice if this were Bush. Not even a question.

  192. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:38 am #

    Yoda: No, it is not enough.

    For the record, Joseph Newcomber…who discovered that the Dan Rather letter was forged…is also very suspicious of Obama’s documents. PDF and AP version.

  193. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:40 am #

    Yoda: It is not an accusation. There are no federal statutes that are applicable and Hawaii has the right to make its own rules.

    Do you really believe that HI has the right to deny the Congress of the US the access to a document to determine Constitutional eligibility to the office of POTUS?

  194. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 2, 2013 at 1:41 am #

    Garrett: A court certified forensics expert of course. Science is fun!

    Would that not require the original to be removed from the state archive? Isn’t that against Hawaii law?

    And given the failure of 200+ birther cases across the country just what question of law could now prompt a court to order such an examination?

  195. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 2, 2013 at 1:42 am #

    Garrett: Do you really believe that HI has the right to deny the Congress of the US the access to a document to determine Constitutional eligibility to the office of POTUS?

    Congress already determined his eligibility when they accepted the results of the Electoral College.

  196. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:42 am #

    Garrett: Do you really believe that HI has the right to deny the Congress of the US the access to a document to determine Constitutional eligibility to the office of POTUS?

    Congress would be required by the Constitution to give full faith and credit to the certified copy that it supplied.

  197. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 2, 2013 at 1:44 am #

    Garrett: If Congress decided they wanted to determine Obama’s Constitutional eligibility they could gain access to any document they wanted.

    How would they do that?

  198. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:47 am #

    Garrett: For the record, Joseph Newcomber…who discovered that the Dan Rather letter was forged…is also very suspicious of Obama’s documents. PDF and AP version.

    you didn’t examine a document

  199. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 2, 2013 at 1:48 am #

    Garrett: Lawyers asked…sometimes not in the correct manner, but a response still could have been given. Why ignore because of a technicality if you’ve nothing to hide.

    And regardless, the image was presented to a court.

    Lawyers aren’t courts and an image isn’t a certified document.

    And they didn’t “ignore” anything because no court asked for it.

  200. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:48 am #

    CarlOrcas: How would they do that?

    How would they not? Be specific.

  201. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 2, 2013 at 1:49 am #

    Garrett: How would they not? Be specific.

    How would Congress force Hawaii to turn over Obama’s original birth record.

  202. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:49 am #

    CarlOrcas: Would that not require the original to be removed from the state archive? Isn’t that against Hawaii law?

    And given the failure of 200+ birther cases across the country just what question of law could now prompt a court to order such an examination?

    A Congressional panel could prompt it. And it might be possible to analyze it in the archive. If not, let Hawaii tell Congress no. That would look really good for Obama.

  203. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:50 am #

    CarlOrcas: Congress already determined his eligibility when they accepted the results of the Electoral College.

    Not really. No verification of eligibility is required unfortunately. They just certified him as POTUS.

  204. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:51 am #

    Garrett: A Congressional panel could prompt it. And it might be possible to analyze it in the archive. If not, let Hawaii tell Congress no. That would look really good for Obama.

    You really don’t know much about the law or the Constitution, do you?

  205. avatar
    Rickey June 2, 2013 at 1:51 am #

    Garrett: Sure it was. And thanks for your expert opinion.

    Please identify the “2 or 3 court cases” in which Obama’s attorneys introduced the pdf as evidence. When you are unable to do that, please show us that you are a man and admit that you were wrong.

    The reality is that no court has ever asked, much less demanded, that Obama produce a copy of his birth certificate. Obama’s attorneys did provide a copy of the pdf in the Mississippi case, but only for informational purposes because Orly Taitz had submitted a copy of a copy of a copy which was illegible.

  206. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:51 am #

    CarlOrcas: How would Congress force Hawaii to turn over Obama’s original birth record.

    I’ll show you mine if you show me yours.

    Why would Hawaii refuse a sincere request from Congress is a better question.

  207. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:52 am #

    Yoda: You really don’t know much about the law or the Constitution, do you?

    Show me the case of precedent where Congress asks for an original BC from a state and they refuse….and it is upheld in Court.

  208. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:53 am #

    Yoda: you didn’t examine a document

    And he never examined a document in Rathergate either. He simply proved it was fake using a copy of the letter. Imagine that.

  209. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:54 am #

    Garrett: I’ll show you mine if you show me yours.

    Why would Hawaii refuse a sincere request from Congress is a better question.

    Explain to me how Congress could not accept the certified copy of the COLB or the LFBC.

  210. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:54 am #

    Yoda: You really don’t know much about the law or the Constitution, do you?

    You really don’t know much about politics do you? If it ever got to that point, a compromise would be reached. Let’s place a small wager. :)

  211. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:55 am #

    Garrett: And he never examined a document in Rathergate either. He simply proved it was fake using a copy of the letter. Imagine that.

    he had a document, even if it was a copy. You did not examine even a copy of a document.

  212. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:56 am #

    Rickey: Please identify the “2 or 3 court cases” in which Obama’s attorneys introduced the pdf as evidence. When you are unable to do that, please show us that you are a man and admit that you were wrong.

    The reality is that no court has ever asked, much less demanded, that Obama produce a copy of his birth certificate. Obama’s attorneys did provide a copy of the pdf in the Mississippi case, but only for informational purposes because Orly Taitz had submitted a copy of a copy of a copy which was illegible.

    Who claimed a court “demanded”? The fact that you don’t know it’s been submitted to court shows your ignorance, not mine. Go find it yourself.

    It was submitted by Obama’s council…not Orly.

  213. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 1:56 am #

    Garrett: You really don’t know much about politics do you? If it ever got to that point, a compromise would be reached. Let’s place a small wager.

    I know a lot about politics, I know more about the law.

  214. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:56 am #

    Yoda: he had a document, even if it was a copy.You did not examine even a copy of a document.

    A scan is not a copy? Interesting. Are you saying the PDF was digitally created from scratch!? Well this is a revelation.

  215. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:57 am #

    Yoda: I know a lot about politics, I know more about the law.

    Good for you. You should have gotten an honorary degree from Harvard with Oprah the other night.

  216. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 1:59 am #

    Yoda: Explain to me how Congress could not accept the certified copy of the COLB or the LFBC.

    They might accept it..sure. Of course, somebody other than an Obama lawyer or biased reported would have to actually SEE the certified copy.

  217. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 2:00 am #

    Garrett: They might accept it..sure. Of course, somebody other than an Obama lawyer or biased reported would have to actually SEE the certified copy.

    Not could accept, is required to accept. Huge difference.

  218. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 2:01 am #

    Garrett: A scan is not a copy? Interesting. Are you saying the PDF was digitally created from scratch!? Well this is a revelation.

    a pdf is not a document. it is a digital reproduction of whatever it depicts.

  219. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 2:02 am #

    Yoda: Not could accept, is required to accept.Huge difference.

    On the face of it…I somewhat agree. Everything is debatable in court however. And if Congress has reason to doubt the certification…then what? What is the law if Congress says they want more? Tell me what happens…teach this padawan.

  220. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 2:04 am #

    Garrett: On the face of it…I somewhat agree. Everything is debatable in court however. And if Congress has reason to doubt the certification…then what? What is the law if Congress says they want more? Tell me what happens…teach this padawan.

    Garrett: On the face of it…I somewhat agree. Everything is debatable in court however. And if Congress has reason to doubt the certification…then what? What is the law if Congress says they want more? Tell me what happens…teach this padawan.

    I don’t care if you somewhat agree. A certified copy is entitled to full faith and credit.

  221. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 2:08 am #

    But it is good Garrett, that you at least “somewhat agree” that the Constitution should be followed. Most birthers want to tear it to shreds.

  222. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 2:12 am #

    Yoda: a pdf is not a document.it is a digital reproduction of whatever it depicts.

    And a copy is not a digital reproduction of whatever it depicts? It’s the exact same thing.

  223. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 2:14 am #

    So do we all agree that the PDF was manually manipulated then? Nobody seems to disagree when I state this…just shift the focus. Nobody finds that at least interesting? Strange.

    So you’re content in looking the other way given this fact? There is bias on both sides gentlemen.

  224. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 2:15 am #

    Garrett: Birther

    Garrett: And a copy is not a digital reproduction of whatever it depicts? It’s the exact same thing.

    Really? you are not very good at your job. They are completely different.

  225. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 2:16 am #

    Garrett:
    So do we all agree that the PDF was manually manipulated then? Nobody seems to disagree when I state this…just shift the focus. Nobody finds that at least interesting? Strange.

    So you’re content in looking the other way given this fact? There is bias on both sides gentlemen.

    Why would be agree on something that is so ridiculous?

  226. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 2:16 am #

    Yoda:
    But it is good Garrett, that you at least “somewhat agree” that the Constitution should be followed.Most birthers want to tear it to shreds.

    Nice straw man…like how easily it burns.

    We actually are seemingly the only ones who want to verify that the Constitution is being followed. Don’t even try to take the Constitution high road. Obama has done more to tear that document to pieces than any birther.

  227. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 2:17 am #

    The only thing that we can agree on is that even if it was manipulated, it doesn’t mean anything legally.

  228. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 2:17 am #

    Yoda:
    Really?you are not very good at your job.They are completely different.

    Lawyer and tech genius too huh? A jack of all trades!

    They both use the same technology to convert a document to an image. Please explain your claim to the contrary. It is no different.

  229. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 2:18 am #

    Yoda: Why would be agree on something that is so ridiculous?

    1. Not riduclous.
    2. Because it is a fact.

  230. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 2:19 am #

    Garrett: Lawyer and tech genius too huh? A jack of all trades!

    They both use the same technology to convert a document to an image. Please explain your claim to the contrary. It is no differ

    One is on paper, the other is one a computer screen. Huge difference.

  231. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 2:20 am #

    Garrett: 1. Not riduclous.
    2. Because it is a fact.

    Of course it is ridiculous and it is your opinion, it is not fact. Birthers need to learn the difference between fact and opinion.

  232. avatar
    Rickey June 2, 2013 at 2:21 am #

    Garrett: Who claimed a court “demanded”? The fact that you don’t know it’s been submitted to court shows your ignorance, not mine. Go find it yourself.

    It was submitted by Obama’s council…not Orly.

    Oh, I see your game. You make a claim, and then when you are challenged you refuse to back up your claim.

    And the word is “counsel,” not “council.” If you knew anything at all about the law you would surely know the difference between the two.

    So I ask again – please identify the case in which Obama’s counsel submitted the pdf to the court. Please identify any case in which a court asked Obama to produce his birth certificate.

    In Taitz, et al. v. Democrat Party of Mississippi, et al., a copy of the LFBC was submitted to the court, but not by Obama’s attorneys. It was submitted by the attorneys for the Mississippi Democratic Party.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/96289285/Mississippi-Democratic-Party-Motion-v-Taitz

    On December 12, 2012 Orly introduced an affidavit from Henry Blake which had an illegible copy of the LFBC attached to it. Doc Conspiracy laid out the chronology of events:

    Orly Taitz filed a copy of Barack Obama’s birth certificate with the Court in Mississippi. She printed out the White House PDF and then scanned it, and in the process messed it up so badly that it was largely unreadable. No one accused Taitz with faking the document. Some thought she should have gotten one of her supporters who knows a thing or two about scanners to get her some decent equipment.

    Attorneys for the Democrats included a readable copy of the birth certificate, saying to the Court, here is a readable copy of what Taitz submitted. The document provided to the court is the White House PDF with a cover page added.

    So the copy of the LFBC was submitted by the Mississippi Democratic Party, then it was submitted (illegibly) by Orly as an attachment to an affidavit, and then (and only then) Obama’s attorneys provided the court with a legible copy in response to Orly’s illegible copy. It was not introduced by Obama’s attorneys as proof of anything.

  233. avatar
    nbc June 2, 2013 at 2:24 am #

    Garrett: So do we all agree that the PDF was manually manipulated then? Nobody seems to disagree when I state this…just shift the focus. Nobody finds that at least interesting? Strange.

    So far the features show compression related features. There is really no evidence of any manual manipulation.

  234. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 2:25 am #

    Rickey: Oh, I see your game. You make a claim, and then when you are challenged you refuse to back up your claim.

    And the word is “counsel,” not “council.” If you knew anything at all about the law you would surely know the difference between the two.

    So I ask again – please identify the case in which Obama’s counsel submitted the pdf to the court. Please identify any case in which a court asked Obama to produce his birth certificate.

    In Taitz, et al. v. Democrat Party of Mississippi, et al., a copy of the LFBC was submitted to the court, but not by Obama’s attorneys. It was submitted by the attorneys for the Mississippi Democratic Party.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/96289285/Mississippi-Democratic-Party-Motion-v-Taitz

    On December 12, 2012 Orly introduced an affidavit from Henry Blake which had an illegible copy of the LFBC attached to it. Doc Conspiracy laid out the chronology of events:

    Orly Taitz filed a copy of Barack Obama’s birth certificate with the Court in Mississippi. She printed out the White House PDF and then scanned it, and in the process messed it up so badly that it was largely unreadable. No one accused Taitz with faking the document. Some thought she should have gotten one of her supporters who knows a thing or two about scanners to get her some decent equipment.


    Attorneys for the Democrats included a readable copy of the birth certificate, saying to the Court, here is a readable copy of what Taitz submitted. The document provided to the court is the White House PDF with a cover page added.

    So the copy of the LFBC was submitted by the Mississippi Democratic Party, then it was submitted (illegibly) by Orly as an attachment to an affidavit, and then (and only then) Obama’s attorneys provided the court with a legible copy in response to Orly’s illegible copy. It was not introduced by Obama’s attorneys as proof of anything.

    Garrett has never been able to back up any claim he has ever made. On top of that he had no business being involved in the alleged investigation. He is a deVattlist birther, just like Zullo. He went into the alleged investigation believing that the duly elected President of the United States was not eligible to serve. Funny how the CCP kept using people like Garrett to support its ridiculous conclusions.

    Zullo would be laughed out of court and you along with him Garrett.

  235. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 2:26 am #

    nbc: So far the features show compression related features. There is really no evidence of any manual manipulation.

    Then you don’t know how to analyze a file. There are many, many proofs of manipulation.

  236. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 2:27 am #

    Yoda: Of course it is ridiculous and it is your opinion, it is not fact.Birthers need to learn the difference between fact and opinion.

    It is not simply opinion. There are things within the PDF that prove human intention. Some that haven’t even been released. But the multiple 1-bit layers, wrong color properties of of the text are good enough signs for the purposes of our argument.

  237. avatar
    nbc June 2, 2013 at 2:28 am #

    Garrett: We actually are seemingly the only ones who want to verify that the Constitution is being followed. Don’t even try to take the Constitution high road. Obama has done more to tear that document to pieces than any birther.

    ROTFL. Obama is nothing compared to those who preceded him in violating our Constitution.

    Birthers, just make up stories about the Constitution but have no use for it when it comes to it.

    Why else would they insist on ignoring our Constitution when it comes to eligibility?

    Think about it…
    No respect.

  238. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 2:28 am #

    Garrett: It is not simply opinion. There are things within the PDF that prove human intention. Some that haven’t even been released. But the multiple 1-bit layers, wrong color properties of of the text are good enough signs for the purposes of our argument.

    It is YOUR opinion.

  239. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 2:30 am #

    nbc: (Quote) #
    Garrett: We actually are seemingly the only ones who want to verify that the Constitution is being followed. Don’t even try to take the Constitution high road. Obama has done more to tear that document to pieces than any birther.

    I have never met a birther yet who had even an inkling of an understanding of the Constitution.

  240. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 2:31 am #

    Yoda: Garrett has never been able to back up any claim he has ever made.On top of that he had no business being involved in the alleged investigation.He is a deVattlist birther, just like Zullo.He went into the alleged investigation believing that the duly elected President of the United States was not eligible to serve.Funny how the CCP kept using people like Garrett to support its ridiculous conclusions.

    Zullo would be laughed out of court and you along with him Garrett.

    Yoda: Garrett has never been able to back up any claim he has ever made.On top of that he had no business being involved in the alleged investigation.He is a deVattlist birther, just like Zullo.He went into the alleged investigation believing that the duly elected President of the United States was not eligible to serve.Funny how the CCP kept using people like Garrett to support its ridiculous conclusions.

    Zullo would be laughed out of court and you along with him Garrett.

    Yoda: Garrett has never been able to back up any claim he has ever made.On top of that he had no business being involved in the alleged investigation.He is a deVattlist birther, just like Zullo.He went into the alleged investigation believing that the duly elected President of the United States was not eligible to serve.Funny how the CCP kept using people like Garrett to support its ridiculous conclusions.

    Zullo would be laughed out of court and you along with him Garrett.

    Yoda: Garrett has never been able to back up any claim he has ever made.On top of that he had no business being involved in the alleged investigation.He is a deVattlist birther, just like Zullo.He went into the alleged investigation believing that the duly elected President of the United States was not eligible to serve.Funny how the CCP kept using people like Garrett to support its ridiculous conclusions.

    Zullo would be laughed out of court and you along with him Garrett.

    I can back up every claim I’ve made regarding the PDF despite having misspelled counsel while typing, watching TV and debating an internet guru. I would make you look like a fool in court if you wanted to claim innocent processes caused this file. I would welcome that opportunity. Mac Preview created the PDF. Explain where the layers came from. Do you even know the relevance?

    But you see….Zullo understand that this isn’t an issue for the courts.

    You can assassinate my character all you want. It just makes you look bad, not me.

  241. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 2:34 am #

    Garrett, I would have you crying for your momma within 5 minutes of beginning my cross examination, and that is even assuming that you are telling the truth or are correct, neither of which I believe to be true.

    I do not hold myself out as an expert on digital documents, but trust me when i tell you that I would have my own expert to refute every one of your points plus expose you for being the liar we both know you are.

  242. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 2:34 am #

    Yoda: It is YOUR opinion.

    You don’t know how wrong you are. :)

  243. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 2:35 am #

    Garrett: You don’t know how wrong you are.

    Nothing can change the fact that it is YOUR opinion.

  244. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 2:35 am #

    nbc: ROTFL. Obama is nothing compared to those who preceded him in violating our Constitution.

    Birthers, just make up stories about the Constitution but have no use for it when it comes to it.

    Why else would they insist on ignoring our Constitution when it comes to eligibility?

    Think about it…
    No respect.

    Do you have anything meaningful to add?

    You really are a hateful group. Why do you dislike us so much? Seriously, do you not get enough love?

  245. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 2:36 am #

    Yoda: Nothing can change the fact that it is YOUR opinion.

    Proof that it is fact can change that fact Maybe law is your thing. Logic clearly isn’t.

  246. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 2:37 am #

    Garrett: You really are a hateful group. Why do you dislike us so much? Seriously, do you not get enough love?

    Why do you hate this country so much?

  247. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 2:38 am #

    Yoda:
    Garrett, I would have you crying for your momma within 5 minutes of beginning my cross examination, and that is even assuming that you are telling the truth or are correct, neither of which I believe to be true.

    I do not hold myself out as an expert on digital documents, but trust me when i tell you that I would have my own expert to refute every one of your points plus expose you for being the liar we both know you are.

    Trust me, I would send you running back to Degobah. I already know ALL of the counter-arguments your experts could offer and how to demonstrably disprove them. Facts are facts.

  248. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 2:39 am #

    Garrett: Trust me, I would send you running back to Degobah. I already know ALL of the counter-arguments your experts could offer and how to demonstrably disprove them.Facts are facts.

    And you slandering my character doesn’t help your argument. I haven’t accused you of lying. Your side seems to get overly emotional. Why is that?

  249. avatar
    Garrett June 2, 2013 at 2:40 am #

    Yoda: Why do you hate this country so much?

    Answer my accusation of hate with another made up insult? You honestly feel you are in the right here?

  250. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 2:40 am #

    Garrett: Proof that it is fact can change that fact Maybe law is your thing. Logic clearly isn’t.

    NOTHING can change that the fact that it is YOU opinion. You do not want to have a logical argument with me, ever. You would lose.

    Your opinion can be true or not true, it can be accepted or rejected by a court, but it is an opinion. You really are not very bright are you?

  251. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 2:41 am #

    Garrett: Trust me, I would send you running back to Degobah. I already know ALL of the counter-arguments your experts could offer and how to demonstrably disprove them.Facts are facts.

    I don’t think so.

  252. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 2:42 am #

    Garrett: And you slandering my character doesn’t help your argument. I haven’t accused you of lying. Your side seems to get overly emotional. Why is that?

    slander has to be false. You are a birther, you have no character.

  253. avatar
    nbc June 2, 2013 at 2:43 am #

    Garrett: Mac Preview created the PDF. Explain where the layers came from. Do you even know the relevance?

    Compression. Simple

  254. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 2:44 am #

    Garrett: Answer my accusation of hate with another made up insult? You honestly feel you are in the right here?

    You are not significant enough for me to hate. And I do not honestly feel anything. The available evidence points to a single conclusion and it is not yours.

  255. avatar
    nbc June 2, 2013 at 2:45 am #

    Garrett: Do you have anything meaningful to add?

    You really are a hateful group. Why do you dislike us so much? Seriously, do you not get enough love?

    Why do you hate Obama so much… You really are a hateful person…

    See how easy your ‘logic’ falls apart.

    I have seen birthers and their fear and hatred. It’s not based on fact, it is based on a dislike of our President, as you so well explained.

  256. avatar
    nbc June 2, 2013 at 2:47 am #

    Garrett: Mac Preview created the PDF. Explain where the layers came from. Do you even know the relevance?

    Mac Preview was the last application to touch the document. Preview is infamous for reordering the data. But we have good reason that the document was scanned with software which separates text from background to optimize for size.
    Once you realize this, most of the artifacts disappear.

    It’s not that hard to understand but somehow the cold case posse refused to really look at this.

    Care to discuss the facts? What about the alignment of the layers… Want to hear more?

  257. avatar
    nbc June 2, 2013 at 2:49 am #

    Garrett: I already know ALL of the counter-arguments your experts could offer and how to demonstrably disprove them. Facts are facts.

    Tell me more about the alignment of the layers. Let’s see if you are up to the task.

  258. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 2, 2013 at 2:53 am #

    Garrett: A Congressional panel could prompt it. And it might be possible to analyze it in the archive. If not, let Hawaii tell Congress no. That would look really good for Obama.

    Since Obama would have nothing to do with it it wouldn’t matter for him.

    And exactly which “Congressional panel” could “prompt” it..whatever that means?

  259. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 2, 2013 at 2:59 am #

    Garrett: Not really. No verification of eligibility is required unfortunately. They just certified him as POTUS.

    That’s right. That’s all it takes.

  260. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 2:59 am #

    CarlOrcas: Since Obama would have nothing to do with it it wouldn’t matter for him.

    And exactly which “Congressional panel” could “prompt” it..whatever that means?

    Interesting how he seems to have run away when you started talking to him about the technical stuff.

  261. avatar
    nbc June 2, 2013 at 3:05 am #

    Garrett: Not really. No verification of eligibility is required unfortunately. They just certified him as POTUS.

    Actually they did found him to have qualified which implies eligibility.

    Now what?

  262. avatar
    nbc June 2, 2013 at 3:07 am #

    Garrett: A Congressional panel could prompt it. And it might be possible to analyze it in the archive. If not, let Hawaii tell Congress no. That would look really good for Obama.

    The Congress, accepting the sovereignty of the state would accept the document.

    The end. There is really nothing there.

  263. avatar
    nbc June 2, 2013 at 3:14 am #

    CarlOrcas: And exactly which “Congressional panel” could “prompt” it..whatever that means?

    I think our friend believes that a Congressional Panel would look at the issue. Quite a political disaster that would be, so I hope it will be taken up by some Republican.

    It will be so much fun to watch.

  264. avatar
    Sudoku June 2, 2013 at 3:20 am #

    Garrett, I am catching up on this discussion, excuse me if someone has already pointed this out.

    Hawaii has issued three Verifications of Obama’s LFBC. One to the SoS of AZ, one to the SoS of Kansas, and one to the attorneys for the Mississippi Democratic Party.

    A Verification certifies that the event did occur, in this case, Obama’s birth in Hawaii as set forth in the LFBC. It is not simply proof that his birth was registered in Hawaii.

    “(b) A verification shall be considered for all purposes certification that the vital event did occur and that the facts of the event are as stated by the applicant.”
    http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0014_0003.htm

    Garrett: Not correct. It’s proof that his birth was registered in Hawaii, not that it happened there. But you know this already. That is why the POTUS was eventually forced to release the PDF…the fact that the public began to understand the distinction.

    Garrett: It was submitted by Obama’s council…not Orly.

    If you are talking about the MS case, Obama is not a party in that suit. Orly filed as an exhibit to one of her motions/pleadings an illegible copy of a printout of the WH LFBC. The attorneys for the Mississippi Democratic Party (not Obama) filed a legible copy in their response, after which Orly accused them of filing a forgery with the Court, so the attorneys got a Verification from HDOH.

  265. avatar
    Sudoku June 2, 2013 at 3:31 am #

    Oops! I screwed up that last bit, but good. Watching TV, too late to edit it out.

    Let’s just pretend that was a dream sequence.

  266. avatar
    nbc June 2, 2013 at 3:36 am #

    Sudoku: If you are talking about the MS case, Obama is not a party in that suit. Orly filed as an exhibit to one of her motions/pleadings an illegible copy of a printout of the WH LFBC. The attorneys for the Mississippi Democratic Party (not Obama) filed a legible copy in their response, after which Orly accused them of filing a forgery with the Court, so the attorneys got a Verification from HDOH.

    Anytime Ory involved we get to see some fun stuff…

  267. avatar
    Rickey June 2, 2013 at 3:45 am #

    Yoda: Interesting how he seems to have run away when you started talking to him about the technical stuff.

    And notice how quickly he dropped his assertion that Obama’s attorneys have submitted copies of the PDF to courts (“2 or 3,” he claimed) as proof that Obama was born in Hawaii. Of course, he won’t admit that he was wrong because birthers are incapable of admitting that they are wrong about anything.

  268. avatar
    Majority Will June 2, 2013 at 6:07 am #

    “They haven’t verified the actual document…only the information on it.”

    *facepalm*

  269. avatar
    Keith June 2, 2013 at 6:16 am #

    Garrett: So access to one group of lunatic’s pocketbooks might not potentially alienate other lunatics and their pocketbooks? Rock solid logic.

    Why should he care? What other group of lunatics would be potentially put off by Arpaio cozying up to the birthers? He isn’t insulting potential voters like the idiots back east, he’s only attacking that crazy sekret muslin socialist commie who happens to be the wrong color to fit into polite company, and sticking it to ‘the man’. There aren’t any lunatics that wouldn’t want to give him a big ol’ pat on the back, even if this lunacy isn’t their lunacy.

    It got him noticed by Rove and the Kochs; they funneled him more money than he needed.

  270. avatar
    Majority Will June 2, 2013 at 6:41 am #

    Rickey: And notice how quickly he dropped his assertion that Obama’s attorneys have submitted copies of the PDF to courts (“2 or 3,” he claimed) as proof that Obama was born in Hawaii. Of course, he won’t admit that he was wrong because birthers are incapable of admitting that they are wrong about anything.

    Gee, a delusional birther bigot caught lying again. Shocking!

  271. avatar
    Keith June 2, 2013 at 7:08 am #

    Garrett: I disagree.They haven’t verified the actual document…only the information on it.

    The information on the document is the only thing that is of any relevance what-so-ever.

    The information on the document is the sole purpose of the document.

    It doesn’t matter if the information is written in crayon on used toilet paper, if the information says that he was born in Hawai’i in 1961 and if Hawai’i verifies that that information is correct, then that satisfies the Constitutional eligibility criteria as to NBC and age.

    End of story.

    And yes, PDF’s are different from physical documents and creation of a PDF is ‘manipulation’. Your ‘discovery’ of this, and your claimed ‘proof’ of this is like claiming discovery and proof that water boiling at sea-level is hot. Who cares?

    The original ‘record of birth event’ was ‘manipulated’ when the book it is bound in was put onto a scanner and photocopied onto the security paper. That printout was ‘manipulated’ when the seal was impressed and the attestation applied in order to turn it into a Birth Certificate. That Birth Certificate was ‘manipulated’ when it was scanned into a computer in order to turn it into a PDF image file.

    What was once paper is now an image stored electronically. There is some loss of ‘information’ when that occurs, like the texture of the paper, the 3D quality of the seal, any imperfections below the sensitivity of the scanner, etc. This information cannot be reproduced when the electronic image is printed onto a physical document. So the PDF printout is not ‘identical’ to the original, and is not itself a Birth Certificate, but it does contain all the information that we look to a Birth Certificate to provide. Furthermore the document is not a forgery of a BC, its just an unofficial computer printout that contains all the same relevant information as the BC.

    The actual Birth Certificate, with the impressed seal and attestation, if presented in Court, can not possibly be a forgery. The computer printout, without the impressed seal and other security features, cannot be a forgery either, at least not a credible one. No one, outside of birthers, of course, would attempt to claim, in court, that such a printout is anything other than a printout of a computer file that contains an image of a BC.

    While irreproducible information is lost in the imaging process, it is not the information that the process is intended to copy. The RELEVANT information is NOT LOST OR CHANGED and can be reproduced with 100% fidelity. You claim that the document has been manipulated, but the point of questioning the document is questioning the information that the document contains, not the mechanical process of producing the document. You have ZERO proof that any information on the document has been changed, in particular, you have ZERO proof that the birth location or the birth day have been ‘manipulated’ in anyway what-so-ever, and the State of Hawai’i has confirmed this information many times.

    Reporting this trivially obvious stuff as some ‘proof of manipulation’, and therefore ‘forgery’, and therefore the President is a ‘fraud’ is so totally stupid that the only possible reason for doing so is a cynical desire to attract attention to yourself by dog-whistling to lunatics.

    You are the fraud.

  272. avatar
    Northland10 June 2, 2013 at 7:09 am #

    Garrett:
    I notice you guys just gloss over the fact that I found the document was manually manipulated. Let’s discuss that. Do you disagree? Do you find that fact insignificant given the seriousness of the entire issue? SMH

    Most of us see no reason to mess with your fantasies of manipulation, since it is only the information which matters (and was verified). The area you argue is already well traveled and you and your ilk were proven wrong, such as by this author who contacted an actual expert:

    http://www.obamabirthbook.com/http:/www.obamabirthbook.com/2012/09/genuine-world-class-computer-expert-evaluates-obamas-birth-certificate-pdf/

    As for your earlier comment about having to prove eligibility for a job, when filling out an I-9, most people show their Drivers License and SSN Card, or a passport. The fact you keep using this argument shows you do not know or care about actual facts.

  273. avatar
    Keith June 2, 2013 at 7:21 am #

    Garrett: I’ve answered this already. They officially claim to have issued two certified copies…yes. I have to take that on faith. The question is if the certified copy matches the PDF and images released to reporters, or if the certified copy had amendments or irregularities, while still containing the same info, and was transformed into the PDF shown to the public.

    WGAS?

    If the “certified copy had amendments or irregularities while still containing the same info, and was transformed into the PDF shown to the public” what relevance do those ‘amendments or irregularities’ have on the question of eligibility?

    Your own words says the actual BC has the same information as the manipulated PDF, and your own words admit that the State of Hawai’i has verified this fact many times. So what possible relevance or motivation is there in applying ‘amendments or irregularities’ to the public image?

    The information says he was born in Hawai’i in 1961. What other relevance is there?

  274. avatar
    Keith June 2, 2013 at 7:43 am #

    Garrett: Firstly, we have to assume they are telling the truth. Why not just release the original?

    Please define what you mean by ‘release the original’.

    WHAT ‘original’ are you referring to here? All Birth Certificates are ‘original’. If they aren’t, then they are not, by definition a Birth Certificate. The ‘record of birth’ on file with the Hawai’ian DoH is not a “BIrth Certificate”, it is NOT certified. That is why is is under such tight control and why someone like your hero Zullo is prevented BY LAW from getting anywhere near it.

    And HOW exactly should that release be actioned? National road show? Free plane tickets to Hawai’i for everyone in America? An original mailed to everyone in the country?

    And WHO do you propose be responsible for the ‘release’? Hawai’i? They are prevented BY LAW from doing any such thing. Obama? He has to the best of his ability done exactly that.

    But I actually do assume they are telling the truth.

    That Obama was born in Hawai’i in 1961? Great, what are we arguing about then?

    The question is was the birth originally registered a home birth and later amended to be doctor attended, including a doctor signature? Did the certified document make note of this but the PDF didn’t?

    Oh, I knew your admission that Hawai’i was telling the truth was too good to be true.

    Your ‘question’ is so stoopid it doesn’t even deserve to have the word ‘stupid’ spelled correctly when describing it.

    Hawai’i has verified every data item on the PDF image. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

    You yourself have said that Hawai’i verified the information on the PDF. That information includes the name of the Hospital and the name of the Doctor. They have the source for the certified document, and if the information on the PDF was different in anyway they would have said so.

    The LFBC that Hawai’i gave Obama was produced by photocopying the birth record onto security paper before they applied the seal and attestation. If that birth record had been amended, that amendment would have been photocopied onto the security paper as well. If any such amendment was not ‘noted’ on the PDF then Hawai’i would have not have been able to verify the information.

    I repeat, Hawai’i verified each individual data item, and the document as a whole.

  275. avatar
    Keith June 2, 2013 at 7:56 am #

    Garrett: Do you really believe that HI has the right to deny the Congress of the US the access to a document to determine Constitutional eligibility to the office of POTUS?

    The Congress has no right to insist that Hawai’i give them access to the vault copy of the birth record. They can insist till they are blue in the face but Hawai’i can tell them to go take a running jump. Congress can ask Hawai’i to verify the information and Hawai’i can supply that verification, that is all.

    If anybody has direct evidence that the birth record in Hawai’i is in anyway irregular, they can present that evidence to an Hawai’ian Court and if the Court is sufficiently convinced it can order the document be produced for examination, if it can be determined that such an examination can clear the matter up.

    Notice that the ‘birth record’ in Hawai’i is a long way from a ‘PDF image on the WH website’. They aren’t the same, and no court is going to let you examine the birth record in Hawai’i because you think that a PDF shouldn’t have layers in it.

  276. avatar
    Keith June 2, 2013 at 8:05 am #

    Garrett: Why would Hawaii refuse a sincere request from Congress is a better question.

    Because it is against Hawai’i State law. What part of that don’t you understand?

    America is a nation of laws and Congress is not above the law. It is within possibility that Congress could legally demand a Birth Certificate from Obama and Obama would comply. Full Faith and Credit requires Congress to accept that Birth Certificate as valid. However, if they needed further proof that the BC was a true document, they could do exactly as a few State SoS’s have done and ask for a verification from Hawai’i. And then that would be the end of it. They would have to accept that verification.

  277. avatar
    Keith June 2, 2013 at 8:19 am #

    Yoda: Garrett: You don’t know how wrong you are.

    Nothing can change the fact that it is YOUR opinion.

    I think he’s trying to tell you that it isn’t his opinion.

    It’s either someone else’s opinion that he is parroting, or he doesn’t believe the crap he is spewing.

    I’m an optimist and believe in the general goodness of human nature. I’m going with the second. No that doesn’t work, because then he is a giant hypocrite.

    So its the first one then. He’s just a deluded, manipulated, sycophant of some puppet-master.

  278. avatar
    Yoda June 2, 2013 at 9:38 am #

    Keith: I think he’s trying to tell you that it isn’t his opinion.

    It’s either someone else’s opinion that he is parroting, or he doesn’t believe the crap he is spewing.

    I’m an optimist and believe in the general goodness of human nature. I’m going with the second. No that doesn’t work, because then he is a giant hypocrite.

    So its the first one then. He’s just a deluded, manipulated, sycophant of some puppet-master.

    I was giving him the benefit of the doubt, but you could be correct. He just kept claiming that his conclusions were “fact”. Birfers find it impossible to differentiate between facts and opinions.

    Garrett has no credibility. He never did. I know for a fact that he is deVattelist (and notice that he did not dispute that). Why should anyone believe his conclusions? He clearly shows a lack of ability to think critically or use logic (as evidenced by the deVattalism). Once, he came into Orly’s World under the name Emerich deVattel for two days spouting about Leo’s work. Yes, he is a devotee of D’Onfrio.

    I am sorry that I did not stick to the law and facts with him last night, but it was late and I was tired. Some of you guys picked me up this morning and articulated some things better than I did.

  279. avatar
    Dave B. June 2, 2013 at 2:17 pm #

    What lawyers, where and when?

    Garrett: CarlOrcas: What court “asked” the White House to present a certified birth certificate?

    Lawyers asked…sometimes not in the correct manner, but a response still could have been given. Why ignore because of a technicality if you’ve nothing to hide.

    And regardless, the image was presented to a court.

  280. avatar
    nbc June 2, 2013 at 2:31 pm #

    Where has Garrett gone :-)

  281. avatar
    Majority Will June 2, 2013 at 5:05 pm #

    nbc:
    Where has Garrett gone

    Into a trembling, fetal position.

  282. avatar
    Kiwiwriter June 2, 2013 at 6:33 pm #

    misha marinsky: That is their real goal – to incite a lone wolf.

    Which worries the hell out of me.

  283. avatar
    Kiwiwriter June 2, 2013 at 6:41 pm #

    Garrett: Ah..the ever witty conservatives as Nazi’s analogy. Brilliant!

    Yes, it certainly is. Glad you agree.

  284. avatar
    Kiwiwriter June 2, 2013 at 6:43 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Very strange Garrett. You’ve jumped into a thread that hadn’t seen a message for a week and that you never participated in. Very strange.

    And, for the record, I’ve never said I wasn’t interested. Quite the opposite in fact. I find the whole phenomenon fascinating.

    As do I…it’s remarkable psychology…it’s a fascinating study of a new version of American right-wing radicalism, going back as far as Gerald L.K. Smith and Charles Coughlin, who was actually a Canadian.

  285. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 2, 2013 at 7:34 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: Yes, it certainly is. Glad you agree.

    As you can see on places like FreeRepublic it doesn’t take much to get some people riled up. Where the line is for them between pounding on a keyboard and on a person is the scary question.

  286. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 2, 2013 at 7:36 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: As do I…it’s remarkable psychology…it’s a fascinating study of a new version of American right-wing radicalism, going back as far as Gerald L.K. Smith and Charles Coughlin, who was actually a Canadian.

    I’ve been observing this stuff for nearly 50 years and while the people and the pathology haven’t changed the technology has sent them right into our living rooms rather than standing on a street corner handing out a freshly mimeographed tirade.

  287. avatar
    Majority Will June 2, 2013 at 9:39 pm #

    CarlOrcas: I’ve been observing this stuff for nearly 50 years and while the people and the pathology haven’t changed the technology has sent them right into our living rooms rather than standing on a street corner handing out a freshly mimeographed tirade.

    At least it has that interesting smell. The mimeograph, not the lunatic.

  288. avatar
    Keith June 3, 2013 at 12:04 am #

    Kiwiwriter: As do I…it’s remarkable psychology…it’s a fascinating study of a new version of American right-wing radicalism, going back as far as Gerald L.K. Smith and Charles Coughlin, who was actually a Canadian.

    My family is not Catholic, nor were my parents particularly politicized, but we lived in Coughlin’s parish, and they actually met him at local community events from time to time. Dad was a Union man through and through, and Coughlin made a show of supporting the Union ideal. My mother, while not in anyway ‘left’ leaning was more into the social justice (small ‘s’, small ‘j’) ‘idea’ than most of her peers, and when he mentioned his ‘Social Justice’ (capital ‘S’, capital ‘J’) she thought quite highly of him, till she learned what it was that he meant by the term.

    When he went off the rails in the 1930′s my parents learned to loathe him like no other politician they ever knew, and they considered him a politician first and a priest distantly second. My family is also not Jewish, and no one could accuse my Dad of being a ‘Jew Lover’, but Coughlin’s bleating against some imagined International Jewish Conspiracy (I know, Misha has the copyright) woke them up to his nastiness.

    As a kid I remember my Dad cursing every time he heard the man’s name, and he didn’t curse very much at all. They both just loathed him.

    I can’t think of anyone else that my parents ever thought in that way, presumably I never got the whole story. My Dad was a Freemason, and active in the community through them; he was Worshipful Master of his Lodge several times. Maybe Coughlin stepped on one of his Lodge’s local projects, or insulted them during a meeting or something. I just don’t know.

    I know there is quite a bit of historical antagonism between the Catholics and the Masons, so something could have grown from that, but Dad certainly wasn’t prejudiced against Catholics, and indeed was instrumental in initiating a fair few into Freemasonry after we moved to Arizona.

  289. avatar
    nbc June 3, 2013 at 1:05 am #

    Garrett: BTW, I can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the PDF file has been MANUALLY manipulated.

    I doubt it. Certainly no manipulation of any meaningful relevance.

    Can you explain the alignment of the layers?

  290. avatar
    nbc June 3, 2013 at 1:06 am #

    Garrett: The whole accusation is ridiculous honestly. He lives in a county with huge amounts of illegal aliens and was elected partly to enforce the immigration laws that were being largely ignored. Until his status as a federal immigration enforcer was revoked last year, partly for political reasons

    And disregard for the rights of the people… Political reasons… Just poor skills… He is a hack at best.

  291. avatar
    bovril June 3, 2013 at 4:31 am #

    Alas I missed all the Garret/Yoda/NBC posting, different time zones can be so bothersome……

    Now, to summarise

    Garret has made a series of unsubstantiated claims, each of which has been refuted.

    He apparently has a problem with both of the BC’s being in some manner “manipulated” although again without explaining what this manipulation actually is or what its significance is.

    He has effectively, simultaneously accepted that the DATA in the “manipulated” BC’s is certified and therefore must be presumed correct via the fun that is FF&C.

    Now, since the DATA is regarded as correct, certified by the Consitutionally sufficient custodian of record the relevant points from the BC are

    1. The President was born in Hawai’i
    2. The date of birth of the President is August 4 1961 (so, greater than 35 years of age)

    The law, the Constitution and Constitutional Amendments and the Supreme Court have ALL stated that there are two and only two types of citizen (in the US), Born A Citizen and Naturalized Citizen. Born a Citizen gets to run for President, Naturalized doesn’t

    By being born in the USA and not part of either of the two, singular, disqualifying classes (born of a member of an invading army or of parent or parents with diplomatic immunity) the President is part of the Born a Citizen class

    Seperate pieces of information that are not in debate

    There is no evidence that the President has ever relinquished his US citizenship
    The president has been a resident of the USA for more than 14 years (both additively and consecutively)
    The President won the nomination of the Democratic Party
    The President won the majority of the Electoral College (and popular) votes
    The Presidents’ EC votes were counted and certified by Congress
    No objections were raised in Congress or Senate on the ratification of the EC votes
    The President was sworn in

    So, Garret

    The requirements to quailfy for President have been met, the DATA of the BC has been agreed by you as certified and therefore presumptatively is accurate, the President won the votes, no objections were received…

    So, what’s left for you to whine about…..?

  292. avatar
    Thomas Brown June 3, 2013 at 10:52 am #

    nbc:
    Where has Garrett gone

    Disappeared up his own Black Hole, if there is any justice in the universe.

  293. avatar
    Kiwiwriter June 3, 2013 at 11:40 am #

    Keith: My family is not Catholic, nor were my parents particularly politicized, but we lived in Coughlin’s parish, and they actually met him at local community events from time to time. Dad was a Union man through and through, and Coughlin made a show of supporting the Union ideal. My mother, while not in anyway ‘left’ leaning was more into the social justice (small ‘s’, small ‘j’) ‘idea’ than most of her peers, and when he mentioned his ‘Social Justice’ (capital ‘S’, capital ‘J’) she thought quite highly of him, till she learned what it was that he meant by the term.

    When he went off the rails in the 1930′s my parents learned to loathe him like no other politician they ever knew, and they considered him a politician first and a priest distantly second. My family is also not Jewish, and no one could accuse my Dad of being a ‘Jew Lover’, but Coughlin’s bleating against some imagined International Jewish Conspiracy (I know, Misha has the copyright) woke them up to his nastiness.

    As a kid I remember my Dad cursing every time he heard the man’s name, and he didn’t curse very much at all. They both just loathed him.

    I can’t think of anyone else that my parents ever thought in that way, presumably I never got the whole story. My Dad was a Freemason, and active in the community through them; he was Worshipful Master of his Lodge several times. Maybe Coughlin stepped on one of his Lodge’s local projects, or insulted them during a meeting or something. I just don’t know.

    I know there is quite a bit of historical antagonism between the Catholics and the Masons, so something could have grown from that, but Dad certainly wasn’t prejudiced against Catholics, and indeed was instrumental in initiating a fair few into Freemasonry after we moved to Arizona.

    Back in the 1930s, when my father was growing up as a kid in New York City, Coughlin had a large following among Catholics, particularly Irish cops. There was also a fair amount of German-American Bund guys, in Nazi Brownshirts.

    The latter would celebrate Yom Kippur by going to Jewish synagogues in The Bronx and Upper Manhattan, and hanging out in front of them until the congregation emerged at dusk, exhausted from a day of fasting. The Nazis would then beat up the Jews to manifest their Aryan racial supremacy.

    Sometimes Mayor La Guardia deployed cops to synagogues when he got the word that the Bund bullyboys were showing up, but that was not always a guarantee of ethnic peace…some of the cops, as I say, were Coughlin supporters, and those who were would stand back and let the Nazis beat up the Jews, unimpeded.

    There were a lot of complaints from the Jewish community, obviously, and La Guardia was furious.

    After Kristallnacht, the German Consul in New York was besieged by protesters. La Guardia sent a detachment of Jewish cops to protect them, which was an interesting statement.

    As for the Bund, they disintegrated in 1940, when their leader, Fritz Kuhn, stood trial for embezzlement and tax fraud. He was siphoning off the organization’s money to supply his girlfriend with jewelry, and the IRS was not happy. Neither was Frau Kuhn. He went to jail, and that was it for the German-American Bund.

  294. avatar
    The Magic M June 3, 2013 at 12:06 pm #

    Garrett: Do you really believe that HI has the right to deny the Congress of the US the access to a document to determine Constitutional eligibility to the office of POTUS?

    Hey, where has all the right-wing “states’ rights” yappin’ gone? Now you’re saying Congress can just run roughshod over HI state laws? (I’m not saying it can’t because I don’t know how far Congress’ subpoena powers go, I’m just wondering you’re all of a sudden in favour of almighty federal government…)

  295. avatar
    nbc June 3, 2013 at 1:21 pm #

    Garrett: It is not simply opinion. There are things within the PDF that prove human intention. Some that haven’t even been released. But the multiple 1-bit layers, wrong color properties of of the text are good enough signs for the purposes of our argument.

    All of these have been quite easily explained when one understands the compression methods used.

    I have explained <a href="http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2013/05/08/long-form-birth-certificate-object-alignment-gsgs/"the location of the layers with the help of gsgs. The 1-bit layers also are simple to understand.

    They are meaningless as signs as they are better explained by pure algorithmic processes.

    No wonder you ran…

  296. avatar
    sfjeff June 3, 2013 at 1:33 pm #

    Garrett: Do you have anything meaningful to add? You really are a hateful group. Why do you dislike us so much? Seriously, do you not get enough love?

    I really don’t hate anyone I can think of.

    But I sincerely dislike Birthers.

    In my experience Birthers are liars, are duplicitious, are cowardly debaters, are often racists and religious bigots and in general range from persons I think are somewhat mentally instable to people who really want to harm Barack Obama, the United States and our Constitution.

    The bigger question is- why would anyone not dislike Birthers?

  297. avatar
    misha marinsky June 3, 2013 at 3:38 pm #

    Garrett: Seriously, do you not get enough love?

    Of course. Angel and Max sleep next to me. How much better can that get?

  298. avatar
    misha marinsky June 3, 2013 at 3:50 pm #

    The Magic M: Hey, where has all the right-wing “states’ rights” yappin’ gone?

    They are also silent about Washington state and Colorado legalizing MJ. States Rights only applies to civil rights denial.

  299. avatar
    G June 4, 2013 at 8:13 am #

    Agreed!

    sfjeff: The bigger question is- why would anyone not dislike Birthers?

  300. avatar
    JD Reed June 4, 2013 at 2:20 pm #

    Garrett: Do you really believe that HI has the right to deny the Congress of the US the access to a document to determine Constitutional eligibility to the office of POTUS?

    So Garrett, has Hawaii denied Congress access to any Hawaiian documents?
    I believe the answer is no, since Congress hasn’t asked. Nor will it, because it has no basis for doing so. Congress should not get involved in a fishing expedition — which is what you really want, but will never get — any more than anybody else.

  301. avatar
    nbc June 4, 2013 at 2:37 pm #

    Garrett: Do you have anything meaningful to add?

    You really are a hateful group. Why do you dislike us so much? Seriously, do you not get enough love?

    I notice that once again you ignore the questions. Fine with me…. I totally understand.

  302. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 4, 2013 at 2:55 pm #

    I don’t hate birthers but I am angered by some of the things they do. The reason that I am angered is a matter of morality and values.

    I was raised to respect the law. My personal life experience (YMMV) is that the courts and government workers and officials, are hard-working people of integrity. I believe in the Ten Commandments, and in particular, the 8th as explained by Martin Luther:

    Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

    What does this mean?–Answer.

    We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.

    When Mr. Zullo pulls out all of the stops to twist things a misleading way to defame the President, the Hawaii Department of health and the media, and when he disrespects law enforcement by putting on their mantle to make his defamation appear more credible, it really upsets me.

    When birthers say that judges are corrupt for clearly making the correct decisions, that upsets me.

    I was also taught and believe that the scientific method is valuable, and the logical fallacy and pseudoscience are immoral. Pseudoscience and fallacy are at the heart of birther claims regarding physical evidence. Birthers use the tools of the slanderer and the character assassin.

    What birthers do is the antithesis of everything that is moral, noble, and helpful. They deserve the strongest denunciation. And to the extent that they are honestly deluded, then their incompetence, ignorance and bias are to be pitied.

    Garrett: You really are a hateful group. Why do you dislike us so much? Seriously, do you not get enough love?

  303. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 4, 2013 at 2:56 pm #

    If the jackboot fits…

    Garrett: Ah..the ever witty conservatives as Nazi’s analogy. Brilliant!

  304. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 4, 2013 at 3:06 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: What birthers do is the antithesis of everything that is moral, noble, and helpful. They deserve the strongest denunciation. And to the extent that they are honestly deluded, then their incompetence, ignorance and bias are to be pitied.

    Eloquently put.

  305. avatar
    Arthur June 4, 2013 at 4:10 pm #

    Garrett: You really are a hateful group. Why do you dislike us so much?

    I know! I found this exchange between two Obots on Dr. C.’s site:

    Obot 1
    If I were elected President – the first thing I would do is round up all the fascists, send them to some dictatorship, and then bomb it until the end of time.

    Obot 2
    Republicans= Fascists (inc/ Romney and McCain)
    But don’t miss Boehner and McConnell either …..
    ————————————————————————————–

    Isn’t that vicious name calling, crude bigotry, and dream of mass murder deplorable!!!

    Oh wait a minute . . . those werent’ Obots, they were BIRTHERS, and it wasn’t on Dr. C.’s site, it was at ORYR. Here’s the actual conversation:

    “FALCON
    If I were elected President – the first thing I would do is round up all the communists, send them to Saudi Arabia and then bomb it until the end of time. +7″

    “BirtherPro
    Democrats = Communists (inc/ NoBama and both Clinton)
    But don’t miss Pelosi and Reid either ….. +4″

    http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2013/06/sheriff-joe-arpaio-speaks-obama-fraud-case.html#idc-containe

    This grotesque exchange took place yesterday, but it’s been going on for years on birther websites. If you want to know about hate, talk to birthers. Their mouths are dripping with it.

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