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Violating their oath o office

What has to be frustrating for the birthers is that even though some members of Congress seem to have as their goal to keep President Obama from achieving anything, they are not willing to champion the birther cause. What to do? Well, if the Congress won’t act, then I guess they replace members with those who will. That’s the theme of a blog post [link to Taitz web site] by Orly Taitz who said:

Attorney Taitz and Ms. Salantiri are now contacting other attorneys and community leaders, both Republican, Democrats and Tea Party Leaders, seeking to start recall efforts of corrupt U.S. Senators and Congressmen who are violating their oath o office, subverting the U.S. Constitution and the Constitution of their states and aiding and abetting the illegal invasion, which robs American citizens of their jobs and their benefits.

Of course, that language is anti-immigration rhetoric and not birther conspiracy theories. Does this signal a change in topic for Taitz? Not really. Taitz is still pursuing birther lawsuits with an appeal in the California case of Judd et al. v. Obama to the Ninth Circuit [link to Taitz web site] with briefs due June 12, 2013.

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405 Responses to Violating their oath o office

  1. avatar
    Dave May 10, 2013 at 8:16 pm #

    I would like to encourage Taitz to “start recall efforts” for Senators and Representatives, because it will be entertaining to see how she proceeds on a task which does not legally exist.

  2. avatar
    Thinker May 10, 2013 at 8:20 pm #

    I think it’s outrageous that members of Congress are trying to pass laws like Orly Taitz doesn’t like. Outrageous. Criminal, really. Unfortunately, members of Congress can’t be recalled, even for the egregious misconduct of advocating laws that Orly Taitz doesn’t like. But I’m sure Taitz will waste a lot of time on this and never accept that fact, just as she still thinks that a court can declare that Obama is not eligible to be president despite being told she is wrong on that many, many times over the past 4+ years.

  3. avatar
    Bob May 10, 2013 at 8:44 pm #

    I think Orly is just trying to piggyback on someone else’s efforts and trying to create the impression that she has an ally. From Orly’s website you can’t tell if this person gave her a polite brushoff or (more likely) that Orly merely sent her an email and never heard back.

    At any rate; please proceed Dr. Taitz.

  4. avatar
    scott e May 11, 2013 at 7:05 am #

    “both” democrats, republicans and tea party leaders…(??) just saying.

    have you heard anything new about the Benghazi affair yet doc ?

    I will continue to try to connect those dots which link them to another, the Obama birth certificate and subsequent documentation.

    do you have miss Deborah’s email ?

    I know you would never violate anyone’s confidence or privacy, but could I ask you to send her mine ? i’d like to hear more of what she has to say.

  5. avatar
    scott e May 11, 2013 at 7:13 am #

    Thinker:
    I think it’s outrageous that members of Congress are trying to pass laws like Orly Taitz doesn’t like. Outrageous. Criminal, really. Unfortunately, members of Congress can’t be recalled, even for the egregious misconduct of advocating laws that Orly Taitz doesn’t like. But I’m sure Taitz will waste a lot of time on this and never accept that fact, just as she still thinks that a court can declare that Obama is not eligible to be president despite being told she is wrong on that many, many times over the past 4+ years.

    arguably the house every two years any senator, every six. every president and vice four, another intrinsic beauty of our system.

    but no, I know what you meant. I don’t think recalls are a good idea, why bother having elections, or the process of removal by law ??

  6. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 11, 2013 at 8:15 am #

    scott e:
    I will continue to try to connect those dots…

    I think “connect the dots” is a bit advanced for you. You should stick to Goofus and Gallant.

  7. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 11, 2013 at 8:59 am #

    I don’t think that Benghazi has quite evolved into a nut-case conspiracy theory and therefore not really appropriate for this blog. It is a legitimate political issue that is being discussed in the mainstream. That’s not what I do here.

    scott e: have you heard anything new about the Benghazi affair yet doc ?

  8. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 11, 2013 at 9:33 am #

    scott e: I will continue to try to connect those dots which link them to another, the Obama birth certificate and subsequent documentation.

    The keyword being try as you couldn’t connect the dots even if you had peewee herman and the magic screen helping you out. There’s no there, there Scotty dont.

  9. avatar
    alg May 11, 2013 at 9:50 am #

    Orly is attempting to retain her shrinking base in the face of persistent losses and smackdowns by coming up with new schemes to encourage their wishful thinking to maintain their interest. ORYR is attempting to do the same thing with the Benghazi story by injecting new life into the misbegotten belief that impeachment lies just around the corner.

  10. avatar
    richCares May 11, 2013 at 10:19 am #

    Staff who served in Libya with Gregory Hicks, the GOP’s primary “whistleblower” in this week’s hearing on the Benghazi terror attacks, undercut his story that State Department officials demoted him as retribution for speaking out, instead telling ThinkProgress about a man who one described as “the worst manager I’ve ever seen in the Foreign Service.”
    .
    scott e: have you heard anything new about the Benghazi affair yet doc ?

  11. avatar
    Thinker May 11, 2013 at 10:46 am #

    It seems odd to me that Orly Taitz–someone born in the former Soviet Union and who, despite claiming to be an American citizen, displays values and thought processes much closer to those of fascist countries than those of the United States–would choose to focus her attention on promoting xenophobia. I guess that’s just part of her truly baffling inability to see herself as others see her.

    She probably expects to take her birfer cred and put it to use in this new endeavor. In the early days of the birfer movement, she had a pretty wide range of supporters among RWNJs, but lost most of them dumped her after the fake Kenyan birth certificate/media meltdowns/Judge Land/Charles Lincoln affair series of event in the second half of 2009. She won’t ever get any powerful people to work with her now, but she might be able to get some of the low-level haters to work with her on this initially. However, they will soon learn that she is crippled by a combination of narcissism and stupidity that makes it impossible for her to succeed in anything. They will dump her soon enough.

  12. avatar
    katahdin May 11, 2013 at 11:13 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I don’t think that Benghazi has quite evolved into a nut-case conspiracy theory and therefore not really appropriate for this blog. It is a legitimate political issue that is being discussed in the mainstream. That’s not what I do here.

    Stay tuned. Benghazi is the new Whitewater. Remember that old faux-scandal; every day seemed to bring a new accusation of some kind of nefarious wrongdoing. And each suggestion would fade away to be replaced by a new accusation that somehow, someway, Clinton had done something illegal and had to be punished for it. And the ‘liberal’ media reported each new accusation uncritically and gave any Republican who wanted it airtime to predict that any day now, the Whitewater ‘scandal’ was fixing to bear some truly shocking fruit. Whitewater was a dry hole. but somehow, Republicans managed to use it leverage impeachment of the president.
    That’s Benghazi now. Wait for it.

  13. avatar
    Arthur May 11, 2013 at 11:40 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I don’t think that Benghazi has quite evolved into a nut-case conspiracy theory and therefore not really appropriate for this blog.

    I don’t think the nut-cases would agree with you. Seven of the thirteen current articles on ORYR have to do with Benghazi. The tie-in with Obama conspiracy theories is the “secret Muslim” meme, i.e., Obama is serving the interests of al-Qaeda.

  14. avatar
    Suranis May 11, 2013 at 12:42 pm #

    Yeah, ScottE is currently throwing a temper tantrum over it at Political Forum. Mainly because people keep bringing it up and he wants to forget it ever happened and the guy even exists.

    richCares:
    Staff who served in Libya with Gregory Hicks, the GOP’s primary “whistleblower” in this week’s hearing on the Benghazi terror attacks, undercut his story that State Department officials demoted him as retribution for speaking out, instead telling ThinkProgress about a man who one described as “the worst manager I’ve ever seen in the Foreign Service.”
    .
    scott e: have you heard anything new about the Benghazi affair yet doc ?

  15. avatar
    Daniel May 11, 2013 at 3:26 pm #

    scott e:

    I will continue to try to connect those dots which link them to another, the Obama birth certificate and subsequent documentation.

    I’m sure you want people to think you’re the “lone wolf” patriot private investigator, who bucks the system and fights evil in your own gritty, no-nonsense way.

    I’d be willing to bet you even see yourself that way, especially after watching an old “film noire” movie on PBS.

    The reality is, unfortunately, that you aren’t the one connecting the dots… you’re the one desperately trying to manufacture them.

  16. avatar
    nbc May 11, 2013 at 3:26 pm #

    scott e: have you heard anything new about the Benghazi affair yet doc ?

    Not much going on there now is there? Even the claim that Hicks was demoted has fallen apart. Sorry Scott.e, another dream of yours has turned out to be nothing more than a cloud of smoke.

  17. avatar
    scott e May 11, 2013 at 3:29 pm #

    richCares:
    Staff who served in Libya with Gregory Hicks, the GOP’s primary “whistleblower” in this week’s hearing on the Benghazi terror attacks, undercut his story that State Department officials demoted him as retribution for speaking out, instead telling ThinkProgress about a man who one described as “the worst manager I’ve ever seen in the Foreign Service.”
    .
    scott e: have you heard anything new about the Benghazi affair yet doc ?

    keep believing in your Obama. 3 whistleblowers an admiral and more to come. not to mention the new i.r.s. scandal. everything may just work itself out.

  18. avatar
    scott e May 11, 2013 at 3:31 pm #

    Arthur: I don’t think the nut-cases would agree with you. Seven of the thirteen current articles on ORYR have to do with Benghazi. The tie-in with Obama conspiracy theories is the “secret Muslim” meme, i.e., Obama is serving the interests of al-Qaeda.

    that’s like saying I work for iran. I agree with doc.
    besides we can’t all be crazy, racist and stupid at the same time. what would we talk about.

  19. avatar
    misha marinsky May 11, 2013 at 4:17 pm #

    Thinker: It seems odd to me that Orly Taitz–someone born in the former Soviet Union…displays values and thought processes much closer to those of fascist countries than those of the United States–would choose to focus her attention on promoting xenophobia.

    Israel is filled with people like her. They spend their days licking their wounds. See Avigdor Lieberman and Natan Sharansky.

  20. avatar
    Yoda May 11, 2013 at 4:17 pm #

    The gap between the influence Taitz has and the influence she thinks she has is bigger than the Grand Canyon.

  21. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 11, 2013 at 5:01 pm #

    The IRS scandal is much more troubling to me than Benghazi. The latter is probably just a screw up or a situation that couldn’t reasonably have been stopped (remember Congress cut funds for embassy security). The IRS thing is not a mistake. The only question is now high it went. My guess is that it didn’t go very high, and there’s nothing to it. Conservatives are whiners.

    However, I’m old enough to remember the Nixon hit list and his abuse of the IRS to go after his political enemies. That was serious and symptomatic of the rotting of the Nixon presidency.

    scott e: keep believing in your Obama. 3 whistleblowers an admiral and more to come. not to mention the new i.r.s. scandal. everything may just work itself out.

  22. avatar
    BillTheCat May 11, 2013 at 5:21 pm #

    scott e: keep believing in your Obama. 3 whistleblowers an admiral and more to come. not to mention the new i.r.s. scandal. everything may just work itself out.

    Hahahahaha oh wow. Thanks for the laugh bud.

    13 embassy attacks under Bush’s watch. Where’s the outrage Scottie? Your buddies are pretty quiet about that. Need an example?

    “May 12, 2003. Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. Armed al Qaeda terrorists storm the diplomatic compound, killing 36 people including nine Americans. The assailants committed suicide by detonating a truck bomb.”

    NINE AMERICANS Scottie. The outrage, where is it?

  23. avatar
    Lani May 11, 2013 at 5:28 pm #

    The IRS “scandal” doesn’t concern me based on current information. IRS was still under the control of a Bush appointee, by the way.

    It’s not unusual or unreasonable to pull files for review where there may be frequent abuse. This happens when new forms of trusts become popular, for example. Home office deductions received a lot of attention awhile back. Tea Party groups popped up all over the place quite quickly, and it doesn’t seem unreasonable to confirm whether or not they met the requirements for non-profits. Apparently, the ones investigated did, and the IRS moved on to other things.

  24. avatar
    nbc May 11, 2013 at 5:29 pm #

    Sorry Scott e. But people are not buying it. The whistle blower appears to be disgruntled after he asked to be relocated state side and he was given a desk job. Like others who after 2 decades of service do not make the necessary ‘rank’, he was hardly on track for great things. As to his testimony, it amounts to little relevance beyond the immediate confusion surrounding the situation. The emails also show limited administration involvement and more a CIA/FBI/State Department struggle to provide reasonable talking points.
    The ‘outrage’ is totally manufactured. As to the IRS, again, that appears to be limited to those making the decisions. Nothing of any relevance to President Obama.

    Funny how our Republican friends are doing everything to torpedo Obama, even if it means driving our country into the ground. They have no interest in how the middle class is doing. Fascinating…

    And deep down you know that again, this is a minor distraction. Poor scott.e he hates our President sooo much that he continues to hang his hat onto foolish conspiracy theories.

    How is that going for you so far my friend?

    As to me, it is what Obama has done and is going to do, and the alternatives that make me believe in his honesty to help this country move forward. The same can not be said for his opponent(s) and the Republican congress whose mission it is to drive our nation into bankruptcy rather than help it recover.

  25. avatar
    nbc May 11, 2013 at 5:33 pm #

    scott e: besides we can’t all be crazy, racist and stupid at the same time. what would we talk about.

    No, but there is a scary amount of people who have shown to belong to such a category. ORYR shows a good sampling of them. Ignorant, intolerant, racist, etc.

    It’s a beautiful sight to see how they correlate so well with the crazy and stupid, and those on the right of the tea party. But those who know the sociological studies on Republicans would have been able to predict such… No wonder that such people also tend to deny evolution, global warming and other sciences. Ignorance runs deep and the need to be told what is ‘true’ makes them vulnerable to religious extremism as well.

    A fascinating combination, which has become known as the American Taliban.

  26. avatar
    nbc May 11, 2013 at 5:38 pm #

    BillTheCat: 13 embassy attacks under Bush’s watch. Where’s the outrage Scottie? Your buddies are pretty quiet about that. Need an example?

    Hypocrisy indeed…

  27. avatar
    donna May 11, 2013 at 6:26 pm #

    BillTheCat: 13 embassy attacks under Bush’s watch. Where’s the outrage Scottie? Your buddies are pretty quiet about that. Need an example?

    Jon Stewart on the Great Benghazi Cover-Up (video)

    Jon Stewart covers the Republican hearings on Benghazi – nine to date ……

    Stewart notes the outrageous GOP hyperbole about Benghazi when, during the Bush administration, there were 54 attacks on diplomatic targets, that killed13 Americans, yet garnered only 3 hearings on embassy security, and ZERO OUTRAGE on Fox.

    http://americablog.com/2013/05/jon-stewart-on-the-great-benghazi-cover-up-video.html

  28. avatar
    richCares May 11, 2013 at 7:36 pm #

    Scott e “…3 whistleblowers an admiral and more to come.”
    Hick’s hearing was to be a blockbuster that takes the lid off, but it didn’t
    .
    Now you’re a smart guy, tell us when the lid comes off , when the big ‘more to come’ comes. Will it be as big as Hick’s testimony that was not a testimony

  29. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 11, 2013 at 7:57 pm #

    Arthur: I don’t think the nut-cases would agree with you. Seven of the thirteen current articles on ORYR have to do with Benghazi. The tie-in with Obama conspiracy theories is the “secret Muslim” meme, i.e., Obama is serving the interests of al-Qaeda.

    One of the first things I heard out of birthers about Benghazi was that Obama was behind it and that he killed Stevens because Stevens was gay and had dirt on Obama. These people are sick

  30. avatar
    misha marinsky May 11, 2013 at 8:08 pm #

    Speaking of violating their oath: Michigan police lieutenant convicted in theft scheme

    http://www.freep.com/article/20130511/NEWS06/305110061/Michigan-police-lieutenant-convicted-theft-scheme

  31. avatar
    G May 11, 2013 at 8:12 pm #

    I agree with you on all points. Sadly, these are all overblown “scandals”…trumped up, not for the good of the country or actually caring to fix problems, remove bad actors in the mix and delve into useful lessons learned.

    No, they are hyperbolic witch-hunts of faux outrage, merely because a certain regressive-minded mentality of people can’t deal with the butt-hurt of “their tribe” not being in charge and able to force their views down everyone else’s throat. Nothing but extreme juvenile sore-loserism to the Nth degree in play. A sad commentary on the immaturity that has too great a hold on certain corners of humanity and the struggle to emerge a civilized people.

    Heck, Iran-Contra was a bigger true scandal in terms of impact on this country and the world than any of these things…and nothing much happened there either. Life will go on and the cry-babies will keep crying over imagined spilled milk…

    nbc: Sorry Scott e. But people are not buying it. The whistle blower appears to be disgruntled after he asked to be relocated state side and he was given a desk job. Like others who after 2 decades of service do not make the necessary ‘rank’, he was hardly on track for great things. As to his testimony, it amounts to little relevance beyond the immediate confusion surrounding the situation. The emails also show limited administration involvement and more a CIA/FBI/State Department struggle to provide reasonable talking points.
    The ‘outrage’ is totally manufactured. As to the IRS, again, that appears to be limited to those making the decisions. Nothing of any relevance to President Obama.

    Funny how our Republican friends are doing everything to torpedo Obama, even if it means driving our country into the ground. They have no interest in how the middle class is doing. Fascinating…

    And deep down you know that again, this is a minor distraction. Poor scott.e he hates our President sooo much that he continues to hang his hat onto foolish conspiracy theories.

    How is that going for you so far my friend?

    As to me, it is what Obama has done and is going to do, and the alternatives that make me believe in his honesty to help this country move forward. The same can not be said for his opponent(s) and the Republican congress whose mission it is to drive our nation into bankruptcy rather than help it recover.

  32. avatar
    Bob May 11, 2013 at 9:30 pm #

    Orly has Holocaust Envy.

  33. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 11, 2013 at 10:09 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Conservatives are whiners.

    But they’re optimistic whiners. They’re sure every new candidate, every new scandal is their salvation.

  34. avatar
    misha marinsky May 11, 2013 at 10:17 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:Conservatives are whiners.

    Which is what I have been saying all along. Listen to Faux Noise.

  35. avatar
    misha marinsky May 11, 2013 at 10:20 pm #

    G: Iran-Contra was a bigger true scandal in terms of impact on this country

    With Iran-Contra, Reagan subverted Congress, and the Constitution. Thus Reagan was the real subversive – not the Communists, which he had for decades been warning us about.

  36. avatar
    Keith May 11, 2013 at 10:27 pm #

    Daniel: I’d be willing to bet you even see yourself that way, especially after watching an old “film noire” movie on PBS.

    “Nightstalker” perhaps?

  37. avatar
    Keith May 11, 2013 at 10:32 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The IRS scandal is much more troubling to me than Benghazi.

    Agree. I suspect some of those RW orgs had something that the IRS would find naughty, but probably the LW orgs did too.

    Increased scrutiny on ALL political orgs is certainly warranted; targeting them simply because they were RW was not.

  38. avatar
    misha marinsky May 11, 2013 at 10:32 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater:These people are sick

    “Auschwitz was divine retribution because you people have refused to accept God’s only son.”

    Their whole world view is sick.

  39. avatar
    Suranis May 11, 2013 at 11:42 pm #

    Whitewater was a scam where the Clinton’s were swindled out of a bunch of money, and the GOP tried to make them being swindled into an impeachable crime.

  40. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 12, 2013 at 12:28 am #

    Suranis:
    Whitewater was a scam where the Clinton’s were swindled out of a bunch of money, and the GOP tried to make them being swindled into an impeachable crime.

    Well yeah Republican worldview is that the crime was that they didn’t do the swindling.

  41. avatar
    Keith May 12, 2013 at 2:20 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: Well yeah Republican worldview is that the crime was that they didn’t do the swindling.

    What do you mean they didn’t do the swindling? How much did the “investigation” cost again?

    And what did the American public get for their money? A pornographic novel, and a bad one at that.

  42. avatar
    scott e May 12, 2013 at 7:30 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    The IRS scandal is much more troubling to me than Benghazi. The latter is probably just a screw up or a situation that couldn’t reasonably have been stopped (remember Congress cut funds for embassy security). The IRS thing is not a mistake. The only question is now high it went. My guess is that it didn’t go very high, and there’s nothing to it. Conservatives are whiners.

    However, I’m old enough to remember the Nixon hit list and his abuse of the IRS to go after his political enemies. That was serious and symptomatic of the rotting of the Nixon presidency.

    me too. I mean i’m old enough to remember the enemies list . of Nixon.

  43. avatar
    scott e May 12, 2013 at 7:38 am #

    nbc:
    Sorry Scott e. But people are not buying it. The whistle blower appears to be disgruntled after he asked to be relocated state side and he was given a desk job. Like others who after 2 decades of service do not make the necessary ‘rank’, he was hardly on track for great things. As to his testimony, it amounts to little relevance beyond the immediate confusion surrounding the situation. The emails also show limited administration involvement and more a CIA/FBI/State Department struggle to provide reasonable talking points.
    The ‘outrage’ is totally manufactured. As to the IRS, again, that appears to be limited to those making the decisions. Nothing of any relevance to President Obama.

    Funny how our Republican friends are doing everything to torpedo Obama, even if it means driving our country into the ground. They have no interest in how the middle class is doing. Fascinating…

    And deep down you know that again, this is a minor distraction. Poor scott.e he hates our President sooo much that he continues to hang his hat onto foolish conspiracy theories.

    How is that going for you so far my friend?

    As to me, it is what Obama has done and is going to do, and the alternatives that make me believe in his honesty to help this country move forward. The same can not be said for his opponent(s) and the Republican congress whose mission it is to drive our nation into bankruptcy rather than help it recover.

    we’re not friends, that would inspire trust and respect.

  44. avatar
    scott e May 12, 2013 at 7:40 am #

    nbc: No, but there is a scary amount of people who have shown to belong to such a category. ORYR shows a good sampling of them. Ignorant, intolerant, racist, etc.

    It’s a beautiful sight to see how they correlate so well with the crazy and stupid, and those on the right of the tea party. But those who know the sociological studies on Republicans would have been able to predict such… No wonder that such people also tend to deny evolution, global warming and other sciences. Ignorance runs deep and the need to be told what is ‘true’ makes them vulnerable to religious extremism as well.

    A fascinating combination, which has become known as the American Taliban.

    there are a scary amount of people, I agree,

  45. avatar
    scott e May 12, 2013 at 7:42 am #

    Bob:
    Orly has Holocaust Envy.

    that’s one of the creepiest things I’ve seen here yet.

  46. avatar
    Bob May 12, 2013 at 8:04 am #

    scott e: that’s one of the creepiest things I’ve seen here yet.

    Coming from a Birther that’s a compliment.

  47. avatar
    scott e May 12, 2013 at 9:27 am #

    Bob: Coming from a Birther that’s a compliment.

    if you think so. i’m guessing you have lot’s of aunts and uncles.

  48. avatar
    Suranis May 12, 2013 at 9:54 am #

    It cost 50 million dollars of taxpayers money.

    Keith: What do you mean they didn’t do the swindling? How much did the “investigation” cost again?

    And what did the American public get for their money? A pornographic novel, and a bad one at that.

  49. avatar
    Scientist May 12, 2013 at 9:57 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    The IRS scandal is much more troubling to me than Benghazi. The latter is probably just a screw up or a situation that couldn’t reasonably have been stopped (remember Congress cut funds for embassy security). The IRS thing is not a mistake. The only question is now high it went. My guess is that it didn’t go very high, and there’s nothing to it. Conservatives are whiners.

    However, I’m old enough to remember the Nixon hit list and his abuse of the IRS to go after his political enemies. That was serious and symptomatic of the rotting of the Nixon presidency.

    I totally agree. The IRS thing is serious and everyone involved should be strongly sanctioned so as to deter others (including a future Republican administration that might be tempted to go after left-wing groups). I also doubt it goes into the White House, but the trail should be followed where it leads.

    Benghazi is simply political hackery by Fox and Friends. Being a diplomat in troubled regions is dangerous work and many have been killed before (both US and others). To think that 100% guaranteed security can be provided is utterly foolish.

  50. avatar
    Suranis May 12, 2013 at 9:59 am #

    Who was a Republican. Like Linchon, whom you drag out to excuse everything and insinuate Democrats are bad.

    Hey ScottE, ever read the book “Worse than Watergate” by John W Dean? It was about how George W Bush took the crimes of Nixon and make them worse. He had an enemies list too, ya know, like Valarie Plume, a CIA agent who Bush outed in revenge for her husband telling the truth that Iraq was not actually looking to buy Uranium from Uganda. Nothing like committing high treason out of petty revenge, eh?

    I’m sure you were busy on forums protesting against his actual crimes. Oh you weren’t? Why not?

    scott e: me too. I mean i’m old enough to remember the enemies list . of Nixon.

  51. avatar
    John Reilly May 12, 2013 at 10:23 am #

    I think what the IRS did is wrong. However, IRS wrongs are not new to Pres. Obama’s administration. Under George Bush, the IRS investigated some liberal churches for opposing the Iraq war and him. One I recall was All Sainst Episcopal in Pasadena.

    What the IRS has most recently done should be evaluated on its own. However, given Scott’s interest in the subject and his age (he remembers Nixon), I’m sure he can point to where he opposed the IRS investigation of churches under Pres. Bush.

    Benghazi is an example of the cover up being worse politically than what happened. Once the Ambassador went there, there was no way to project Amerixan power to stop what was happening. The real problem was the reduction in State Department security, and too many Republicans have their fingers in cutting funds for adequate security.

    I guess someone could have flown carrier based planes over Benghazi and buzzed the crowd. Whether that would have done any good is uncertain. Land based planes (like I flew) were too far away to make any difference at all. And what happerns if a plabe is shot down or has a mechanical problem? Buzzing crowds at Mach 1 may seem like fun to you, but it puts a plane perilously close to folks who probably have ground-to-air capability. When you come around the second time, someone may be waiting.

    Moreover, the idea that one gets a report of some problem, and within minutes immediately sends American forces into a situation is simply put, nuts. There has to be planning and an understanding of what is on the ground. And things go wrong, like in Somalia. Or the Iranian desert. Even in the bin Laden mission, with all of the training and planning, they missed the aeronautic difficulties of putting a helicopter down in that courtyard.

    The time to protect Chris Stevens was before he left for Benghazi.

  52. avatar
    donna May 12, 2013 at 11:36 am #

    John Reilly: The time to protect Chris Stevens was before he left for Benghazi.

    stevens went to benghazi to attend a meeting with Elliot Chorin (co-founder of the Avicenna Group, a nonprofit organization working on Libya’s medical facilities) and Dr. Fathi al-Jehani (the Benghazi Medical Center’s director general)

    “On Tuesday night, even as the men who would kill him were closing in, Ambassador Stevens told us by phone how happy he was that the project was nearing fruition. He told us it was important to show our government’s support for such initiatives, and we made plans to meet with the medical center’s director general, Dr. Fathi al-Jehani, at the hospital the next morning. Dr. Jehani himself had been a target of violence for his forward-thinking views.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/opinion/what-libya-lost-when-ambassador-stevens-died.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

  53. avatar
    scott e May 12, 2013 at 11:57 am #

    John Reilly:
    I think what the IRS did is wrong.However, IRS wrongs are not new to Pres. Obama’s administration.Under George Bush, the IRS investigated some liberal churches for opposing the Iraq war and him.One I recall was All Sainst Episcopal in Pasadena.

    What the IRS has most recently done should be evaluated on its own.However, given Scott’s interest in the subject and his age (he remembers Nixon), I’m sure he can point to where he opposed the IRS investigation of churches under Pres. Bush.

    Benghazi is an example of the cover up being worse politically than what happened.Once the Ambassador went there, there was no way to project Amerixan power to stop what was happening.The real problem was the reduction in State Department security, and too many Republicans have their fingers in cutting funds for adequate security.

    I guess someone could have flown carrier based planes over Benghazi and buzzed the crowd.Whether that would have done any good is uncertain.Land based planes (like I flew) were too far away to make any difference at all.And what happerns if a plabe is shot down or has a mechanical problem?Buzzing crowds at Mach 1 may seem like fun to you, but it puts a plane perilously close to folks who probably have ground-to-air capability.When you come around the second time, someone may be waiting.

    Moreover, the idea that one gets a report of some problem, and within minutes immediately sends American forces into a situation is simply put, nuts.There has to be planning and an understanding of what is on the ground.And things go wrong, like in Somalia.Or the Iranian desert.Even in the bin Laden mission, with all of the training and planning, they missed the aeronautic difficulties of putting a helicopter down in that courtyard.

    The time to protect Chris Stevens was before he left for Benghazi.

    before during and after. didn’t you see sean smith’s mother on Huckabee last night ?

  54. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 12, 2013 at 12:43 pm #

    Scientist: I totally agree. The IRS thing is serious and everyone involved should be strongly sanctioned so as to deter others (including a future Republican administration that might be tempted to go after left-wing groups). I also doubt it goes into the White House, but the trail should be followed where it leads.

    One thing that will probably get lost in this tempest is the abuse of the tax code by political advocates masquerading as non-profits. Too bad. It’s something worth discussing.

    Scientist: Benghazi is simply political hackery by Fox and Friends. Being a diplomat in troubled regions is dangerous work and many have been killed before (both US and others). To think that 100% guaranteed security can be provided is utterly foolish.

    Former Secretary of Defense Bob Gates was on Face the Nation this morning and his comments are right on target (so to speak) in my opinion:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3460_162-57584087/gates-some-benghazi-critics-have-cartoonish-view-of-military-capability/

  55. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 12, 2013 at 12:56 pm #

    scott e: didn’t you see sean smith’s mother on Huckabee last night ?

    What did she say Scott? What evidence or information did she supply to support what she said?

  56. avatar
    donna May 12, 2013 at 1:27 pm #

    Robert Gates Defends Obama Military Response To Benghazi

    “Frankly had I been in the job at the time, I think my decisions would have been just as theirs were,” said Gates on CBS’s “Face the Nation,” referring to the role of then-Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Martin Dempsey.

    “We don’t have a ready force standing by in the Middle East — despite all the turmoil that’s going on, with planes on strip alert, troops ready to deploy at a moment’s notice. And so getting somebody there in a timely way — would have been very difficult, if not impossible.”

    “And frankly, I’ve heard, ‘Well, why didn’t you just fly a fighter jet over and try and scare ‘em with the noise or something?’ Well, given the number of surface to air missiles that have disappeared from Qaddafi’s arsenals, I would not have approved sending an aircraft, a single aircraft — over Benghazi under those circumstances,” he said.

    “And with respect to — sending in special forces or a small group of people to try and provide help, based on everything I have read, people really didn’t know what was going on in Benghazi contemporaneously,” Gates added. “And to send some small number of special forces or other troops in without knowing what the environment is, without knowing what the threat is, without having any intelligence in terms of what is actually going on on the ground, I think, would have been very dangerous.”

  57. avatar
    John Reilly May 12, 2013 at 1:36 pm #

    Secretary Gates gave a more detailed response than did I. But the concept is the same.

    Of course, Scott wants to know whether we watched the Mother of one of the Americans killed. We do not make policy or decide military tactics based upon what the grieving families say. We could have a ready force stationed all over the world. Where is the Republican support for that? Where is Scott’s willingness to pay the taxes for that. To have a ready force within 1 hour of every hot spot is in the tens of billions.

    And Scott, this blog is about Obama Conspiracy Theories. I’ll ask again. Show us a blog entry of your criticizing Pres. Bush for, say, what happened to Pat Tillman. When Mr. Tillman was killed in “friendly” fire, I was flying combat missions over Afghanistan. Show us where you suggested that our military tactics be guided by the views of the Tillman Family.

  58. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 12, 2013 at 1:57 pm #

    donna: Gates added. “And to send some small number of special forces or other troops in without knowing what the environment is, without knowing what the threat is, without having any intelligence in terms of what is actually going on on the ground, I think, would have been very dangerous.”

    The armchair warriors have been watching too many movies and ignoring their history lessons.

    We’re coming up on the 20th anniversary of Mogadishu and the 33rd of Operation Eagle Claw.

    Imagine for a minute what the armchair warriors would be saying if a lone warplane had been shot down over Benghazi while trying to impress the bad guys. Or if we had sent an ill prepared force in that turned into another Mogadishu.

    When will we learn that even our immense power has its limits?

  59. avatar
    scott e May 12, 2013 at 2:04 pm #

    CarlOrcas: What did she say Scott? What evidence or information did she supply to support what she said?

    she said she hasn’t heard from anyone, yet. she wished Hillary a happy mother’s day.

  60. avatar
    Thinker May 12, 2013 at 2:09 pm #

    Donna: You need to learn how to use the quote function. Your posts are difficult to figure out because I can’t tell what is your text and what you are quoting.

    donna:
    BillTheCat: 13 embassy attacks under Bush’s watch. Where’s the outrage Scottie? Your buddies are pretty quiet about that. Need an example?

    Jon Stewart on the Great Benghazi Cover-Up (video)

    Jon Stewart covers the Republican hearings on Benghazi – nine to date ……

    Stewart notes the outrageous GOP hyperbole about Benghazi when, during the Bush administration, there were 54 attacks on diplomatic targets, that killed13 Americans, yet garnered only 3 hearings on embassy security, and ZERO OUTRAGE on Fox.

    http://americablog.com/2013/05/jon-stewart-on-the-great-benghazi-cover-up-video.html

  61. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 12, 2013 at 2:41 pm #

    scott e: she said she hasn’t heard from anyone, yet. she wished Hillary a happy mother’s day.

    Last November she said she believed President Obama had “murdered” her son.

    http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/Nov/02/tp-families-differ-on-us-response/?#article-copy

    Did she offer any evidence to support that charge?

  62. avatar
    nbc May 12, 2013 at 2:53 pm #

    scott e: she said she hasn’t heard from anyone, yet. she wished Hillary a happy mother’s day.

    Understandable that the executive branch has slowed down as there is a legislative investigation going on and they may not want to be seen interfering with them…

  63. avatar
    nbc May 12, 2013 at 2:57 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Did she offer any evidence to support that charge?

    Fox News… The same organization that was ruled not to have to report the truth… So it may have been ignorance fueled by the political motives of a ‘news organization’ that sadly may have led a mother to believe certain ‘facts’.

    Patricia Smith, who voted for Obama in 2008 at the insistence of her son, said reporting by Fox News is the basis for much of her belief that Obama is ultimately responsible for her son’s death.

  64. avatar
    Majority Will May 12, 2013 at 3:19 pm #

    nbc: Fox News… The same organization that was ruled not to have to report the truth… So it may have been ignorance fueled by the political motives of a ‘news organization’ that sadly may have led a mother to believe certain ‘facts’.

    Patricia Smith, who voted for Obama in 2008 at the insistence of her son, said reporting by Fox News is the basis for much of her belief that Obama is ultimately responsible for her son’s death.

    Twitter: Rupert Murdoch Verified account
    ‏@rupertmurdoch
    Election: Romney must draw clear line: offer specific path to restore American dream versus ugly Obama class war with jobs disappearing.

    “Murdoch donated a total of $25,000 to the National Republican Congressional Committee and gave additional funds to specific Republican senators. His donation activity seemed to contrast with that of News Corp., which donated only $2,750 to Romney’s presidential campaign.” (The Center for Responsive Politics)

    Twitter: Rupert Murdoch Verified account
    @rupertmurdoch
    Romney people upset at me! Of course I want him to win, save us from socialism, etc but should listen to good advice and get stuck in!

    And . . . Roger Eugene Ailes is president of Fox News Channel, and chairman of the Fox Television Stations Group. Ailes was a media consultant for Republican presidents Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, and George H. W. Bush and for Rudy Giuliani’s first mayoral campaign (1989). (wikipedia)

    Of course, mentally challenged bigots claim there is no conservative political bias at Fox or News Corporation. That would require common sense.

  65. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 12, 2013 at 3:26 pm #

    Keith: What do you mean they didn’t do the swindling? How much did the “investigation” cost again?

    And what did the American public get for their money? A pornographic novel, and a bad one at that.

    What I meant was if this was a Romney in Clinton’s shoes the crime would have been that instead of getting swindled that Clinton was not swindling people out of money. Profit motivates everything screw the little guy is their worldview on the republican side.

  66. avatar
    Majority Will May 12, 2013 at 3:33 pm #

    donna:
    Robert Gates Defends Obama Military Response To Benghazi

    “Frankly had I been in the job at the time, I think my decisions would have been just as theirs were,” said Gates on CBS’s “Face the Nation,” referring to the role of then-Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Martin Dempsey.

    “We don’t have a ready force standing by in the Middle East — despite all the turmoil that’s going on, with planes on strip alert, troops ready to deploy at a moment’s notice. And so getting somebody there in a timely way — would have been very difficult, if not impossible.”

    “And frankly, I’ve heard, ‘Well, why didn’t you just fly a fighter jet over and try and scare ‘em with the noise or something?’ Well, given the number of surface to air missiles that have disappeared from Qaddafi’s arsenals, I would not have approved sending an aircraft, a single aircraft — over Benghazi under those circumstances,” he said.

    “And with respect to — sending in special forces or a small group of people to try and provide help, based on everything I have read, people really didn’t know what was going on in Benghazi contemporaneously,” Gates added. “And to send some small number of special forces or other troops in without knowing what the environment is, without knowing what the threat is, without having any intelligence in terms of what is actually going on on the ground, I think, would have been very dangerous.”

    “It’s sort of a cartoonish impression of military capabilities and military forces” to think the United States could have mounted a rescue, Gates said.

    It would have been risky just to send in a military jet to try to scare off the insurgents, “given the number of surface-to-air missiles” on the loose in Libya, he said.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/12/us-usa-behghazi-idUSBRE94B0B120130512

  67. avatar
    scott e May 12, 2013 at 4:00 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Last November she said she believed President Obama had “murdered” her son.

    http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/Nov/02/tp-families-differ-on-us-response/?#article-copy

    Did she offer any evidence to support that charge?

    I don’t think it’s her responsibility to provide evidence. everyone that day who used that service of receiving their dead sons, as a vehicle to advance their political narrative, promised they would get back to her.

    0bama clinton, and leon panetta, who took her face in his two hands looked her in the eyes and said ? “trust me”… and that was the end of it, until she heard jay carney tell the nation, “Benghazi was a long time ago”..

    no, indeed she is simply the mother of a fallen American hero that was abandoned by his country, it’s not her obligation to find out why, but there are many of us who will.

  68. avatar
    nbc May 12, 2013 at 4:29 pm #

    scott e: I don’t think it’s her responsibility to provide evidence. everyone that day who used that service of receiving their dead sons, as a vehicle to advance their political narrative, promised they would get back to her.

    Wow… I understand your position on evidence but when someone makes accusations based on Faux News reporting, they have the duty to research said evidence.

    Yes, and they will but not during an ongoing investigation. Do you have no common sense? You are nicely distracting from those who are really using the dead sons for their political advancements, and those are the republicans who have no intent to do anything that will further Obama’s agenda, even to the extent of driving our nation into the ground socially and economically.

    Needless to say, Scott believes that it is not the duty of those making accusations to support them.

    Yes, that makes a lot of sense in Scott’s world of ignorance, fear and hate…

    But common sense dictates that such accusations deserve a bit more than ‘Faux News’ said so, do you not agree?

  69. avatar
    nbc May 12, 2013 at 4:33 pm #

    scott e: no, indeed she is simply the mother of a fallen American hero that was abandoned by his country, it’s not her obligation to find out why, but there are many of us who will.

    He is neither a hero nor was he abandoned by his country. He did his duty as part of his job and died. However, the claim that he was abandoned runs against the facts known so far. But that may not stop scott.e and his ilk from pursuing foolish actions. Scott.e has already made it clear that he has accepted that the dead people were abandoned by their country…

    Funny how selective his outrage is here, especially when there is no good evidence that suggests this. Perfect hindsight is not a very good position to draw conclusions from either.

    Such is how ignorance leads to hate and fear and abandonment of logic and reason.

    I guess in Scott’s world it is ok that a mother makes comments she cannot support and which are then used for political advantages when it serves his purpose…

    What a hypocrite.

  70. avatar
    nbc May 12, 2013 at 4:52 pm #

    Hicks said he tried in vain to get fighter jets to fly over Benghazi in an effort to scare off the attackers.

    Which would have unlikely deterred them as they would have realized that fighter jets would never engage them on the ground, given the location. Furthermore, as Robert Gates has pointed out, the fact that countless surface to air missiles had gone missing in Libya would have made such an intervention likely to lead to even more casualties.

    Since the military could not have gotten a US plane to Tripoli in time, a plane was chartered and flown to Benghazi with a rescue team within 3 hours after the attack had started.

    “1:15 a.m.: CIA reinforcements arrive on a 45-minute flight from Tripoli in a plane they’ve hastily chartered,” reported Ignatius. “The Tripoli team includes four GRS [CIA Global Response Staff] security officers, a CIA case officer and two U.S. military personnel on loan to the agency. They don’t leave the Benghazi airport until 4:30 a.m. The delay is caused by negotiations with Libyan authorities over permission to leave the airport; obtaining vehicles; and the need to frame a clear mission plan. The first idea is to go to a Benghazi hospital to recover Stevens, who they rightly suspect is already dead. (Also killed was a State Department communication specialist.) But the hospital is surrounded by the al-Qaeda-linked Ansar al-Sharia militia that mounted the consulate attack.”

    The small special forces team in Tripoli was not deployed because the C130 was sent as an evacuation vehicle. In hindsight perhaps a foolish decision but the attack appeared to be over, until a second attack took place. By that time Smith and the ambassador were already dead.

    Even Hicks had to accept that

    The former Deputy Chief of Mission in Libya, Gregory Hicks, who was one of the witnesses at the hearing on Wednesday, confirmed that the team told to stand down was never meant to deploy to the site of the attack. Instead, they were intended “to secure the airport for the withdrawal of our personnel from Benghazi after the mortar attack.” Hicks also stated that another team was deployed before this specific one was told to stand down — the first did in fact report to Benghazi and all officials were taken to Tripoli with 18 hours of the attack.

    So we have a disgruntled whistleblower and Faux News… What else?

  71. avatar
    nbc May 12, 2013 at 5:03 pm #

    Now I am not denying that in hindsight, mistakes were made but that’s a far cry from the accusations made by the far right and Faux News, in their efforts to undermine President Obama and the potential front runner for the 2016 elections.

    Ignorance, hate and fear quickly lead to one abandoning logic and reason in favor of biased speculations.

    So what orders were given, according to the NY Times in 2012

    But other military forces were too far away or could not be mobilized in time. The closest AC-130 gunship, a devastating and accurate weapon against insurgents in urban areas, was in Afghanistan, a senior official said.

    There are no armed drones within range of Libya. The closest fly out of Djibouti, in the Horn of Africa, and were not in range of Benghazi. There was no Marine expeditionary unit — a large seaborne force with its own helicopters — in the Mediterranean Sea. American F-16 fighters in Europe were not on alert, and General Ham concluded they would not have been useful in a confused fight in a major Arab city.

    Acting on Mr. Obama’s order, the staff of the Joint Chiefs presented the options. Around 6:30 p.m., oral instructions were given for the units to get ready to deploy and formal deployment orders were issued after 8:30 p.m. The early reports in Washington noted that Ambassador Stevens was missing, and a major worry was that a hostage-rescue mission might be needed.

    The Pentagon sent the Delta Force commandos to the Sigonella base in Sicily, to put them in position to deploy to Libya. Two 50-strong platoons of specially trained Marines, from Rota, Spain, were ordered to get ready to deploy, too.

    Another option approved was to send the European Command’s quick-reaction force, which consists of about four dozen Special Forces soldiers and other specialists. But it was in the middle of a mission in Croatia. Elements of the team began leaving for Sigonella by 9 p.m., and the unit completed its deployment to Sicily shortly after noon the next day, a Pentagon official said. By then the 30 or so surviving Americans, and the bodies of their four colleagues, were in Tripoli.

    With the region still in turmoil, the European Command’s quick-reaction team was sent on to Tunis. One of the Marine platoons was sent to Tripoli to protect the United States Embassy there. The Delta Force commandos, having arrived too late to help, flew back home, Pentagon officials said.

    Other sources confirm

    At 4:30 p.m. in Washington that day, then-U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta learned of the attack underway against the U.S. Consulate in Libya. He was meeting at the time with President Barack Obama in the White House. Yet reportedly 90 minutes passed before Panetta authorized the deployment of a Marine Corps anti-terrorism team to Benghazi and Tripoli from Rota, Spain. Even then no such military units arrived in Libya until nearly a day (21 hours) later, long after the incident was over and the bodies and wounded recovered.

  72. avatar
    nbc May 12, 2013 at 5:18 pm #

    Funny how the Republican report on Benghazi praised the military for deploying quickly, instead focusing on the mistakes made by the State Department and claims that Clinton tried to hide this. As to the change in talking points, we have a much clearer understanding of what happened and the evidence of cover up appear to be poorly supported. In fact, Boehner was invited to participate but had declined.

    To help expedite the movement of forces after the receipt of formal authorization, Pentagon officials verbally conveyed orders to other Combatant Commands.
    Specifically, Secretary Panetta verbally directed the deployment of:

    1. two Marine Fleet Antiterrorism Security Team (FAST) platoons from Rota, Spain to
    the Benghazi Mission and Embassy Tripoli;
    2. a U.S. European Command (EUCOM) Commander’s in-Extremis Force (CIF) to an
    intermediate staging base in southern Europe; and
    3. a special operations force based in the United States to an intermediate staging base in
    southern Europe.

    Concurrently, at 12:30 AM, a six-man security team and one linguist stationed at
    Embassy Tripoli departed for Benghazi; the team landed in Benghazi at 1:30 AM. At 2:39 AM, officers in the National Military Command Center transmitted the formal authorizations for the deployments of the two Marine FAST platoons and the EUCOM special operations force. At 2:53 AM, the U.S-based special operations force received formal authorization to deploy.

    So far, this appears to be much ado about nothing. So predictably the focus will return to the pre and post attack responses by the State Department and the Administration.

    Of course, predictably the Republicans blame the administration even though they remained quiet on similar events during the Bush administration.

    Were mistakes made leading up to the attack? Yes, decisions at the state department increased the mission’s exposure to attack. It may be tempting to claim that the responsibility went all the way up to Clinton but I believe there is no real evidence to support this.

    As to the post Benghazi response by the administration, again, much ado about nothing. And of course, it was too late to save any lives at this moment.

  73. avatar
    Scientist May 12, 2013 at 7:08 pm #

    scott e: I don’t think it’s her responsibility to provide evidence.

    I’m a bit confused scott. You claim to be a “conservative”. Conservatives are supposed to believe that when a murder is committed it is the murderer who is to blame, not the cops, society or anyone else. Yet, here you want to make an exception and blame the President, rather than those who actually killed.

    Strange and, dare I say it, very un-conservative of you..

  74. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 12, 2013 at 7:48 pm #

    scott e: I don’t think it’s her responsibility to provide evidence.

    That’s nonsense, scott. If she makes the charge then it’s her job to back it up. If she doesn’t have any evidence then she should – out of respect to her son and the others who died – keep her mouth shut.

  75. avatar
    Keith May 12, 2013 at 8:00 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: What I meant was if this was a Romney in Clinton’s shoes the crime would have been that instead of getting swindled that Clinton was not swindling people out of money.Profit motivates everything screw the little guy is their worldview on the republican side.

    OK, I read it differently. I read that you were saying the GOP were jealous that they (the GOP) hadn’t done the swindling – that is, somebody got swindled and they didn’t get anything out of it. So my reply was to show that they sure did get something out of it – $50 million dollars worth of payoffs to their sycophants (a dress rehearsal for Iraq and Halliburton) and more than 2 years of FUD.

  76. avatar
    Suranis May 12, 2013 at 11:11 pm #

    Shouldnt you report the full quote and the context, ScottE

    During his daily press briefing, Carney was asked about rumors that Benghazi whistleblowers are being prevented from testifying about the Sept. 11, 2012, attacks. The White House spokesman denied the allegations.

    “Let’s be clear,” Carney said. “Benghazi happened a long time ago. We are unaware of any agency blocking an employee who would like to appear before Congress to provide information related to Benghazi.”

    So the full context was that He was denying the rumours that whistleblowers were bieng blocked from testifying. You know, like happened on whistleblower Wednesday, the day you keep trying to deny ever happened. Should he have said “a long time ago”? No, but he was probably sick and tired of the same questions over and over and it was some frustration leaking out.

    Odd that you didn’t want to include the full context but only wanted to mention about half a sentence. Literally.

    And its reprehensible that you and your ilk would use that half a sentence to mislead a grieving mother and increase her agony for simple political gain.

    scott e: 0bama clinton, and leon panetta, who took her face in his two hands looked her in the eyes and said ? “trust me”… and that was the end of it, until she heard jay carney tell the nation, “Benghazi was a long time ago”..

  77. avatar
    Suranis May 12, 2013 at 11:16 pm #

    I know very little about the IRS thing, but I agree it seems to be far more serious than Bengazi. Certainly it give the GOP a far better platform to twist and exaggerate and flog into the midterms. No-one likes the IRS, so that’s a good starting point.

    And, another point, there’s too many Military Vets out there in the community who would know that the Hicks and his ilk are full of excrement. So its too hard to make it stick.

  78. avatar
    nbc May 12, 2013 at 11:20 pm #

    Suranis: Odd that you didn’t want to include the full context but only wanted to mention about half a sentence. Literally.

    Odd? Not really… Scott.e has no interest in that which does not support his follies.

  79. avatar
    Suranis May 12, 2013 at 11:25 pm #

    I’ll just quote a comment from another forum which probably hits the mark on the IRS thing.

    It’s a big nothing burger. At the end of the day, nobody was denied or lost their 501(c)4 status (even though most of them probably should have) The worst that happened was that a few of them had their approval delayed, and were asked for their donor lists because they were not *yet* 501(c)4’s.

    That’s it. No auditing the enemies list, no targeted political blacklisting. Nobody was adversely affected in any way by the decisions of minor bureaucratic functionaries that were never even known of by anyone higher than 4-5 levels below the president until it turned into a political thing. It’s a whole bunch of nothing, wrapped in nothing, meaning nothing.

    So of course they’ll beat the drum on it endlessly. It’s perfect, because it’s nothing, it’s whatever they want it to be.

  80. avatar
    Rickey May 13, 2013 at 12:02 am #

    Suranis:
    Shouldnt you report the full quote and the context, ScottE

    Taking quotes out of context is par for the course for right-wingers such as Scott.

  81. avatar
    JPotter May 13, 2013 at 12:20 am #

    Suranis: So of course they’ll beat the drum on it endlessly. It’s perfect, because it’s nothing, it’s whatever they want it to be.

    …. and it plays right into the persecution complex.

    Wouldn’t surprise me if it turns out that this was a case of the IRS doing its duty to attempt to smoke out purely politically partisan entities attempting to masquerade as tax-exempt, just-a-bit political, but mainly social welfare, entities.

    Tax exempt status should be earned, not given out like candy. If you’re wallowing in political rhetoric, expect scrutiny.

  82. avatar
    G May 13, 2013 at 2:21 am #

    Agreed.

    JPotter: Tax exempt status should be earned, not given out like candy. If you’re wallowing in political rhetoric, expect scrutiny.

  83. avatar
    G May 13, 2013 at 2:26 am #

    Agreed. All of this is nothing more than the typical faux outrage from ultra-partisan dupes, such as scott, who will quickly turn a blind-eye to any mistakes or bad actions from what they perceive as “their team”…yet will leap without looking (or ever caring to look) into accusations and the casting of aspersions against “the other”…

    Nothing but a bunch of ginned up yellow-journalistic folly from a frothing band of self-serving, bitter, small-minded hypocrites.

    Scientist: I’m a bit confused scott. You claim to be a “conservative”. Conservatives are supposed to believe that when a murder is committed it is the murderer who is to blame, not the cops, society or anyone else. Yet, here you want to make an exception and blame the President, rather than those who actually killed.

    Strange and, dare I say it, very un-conservative of you..

    nbc: Odd? Not really… Scott.e has no interest in that which does not support his follies.

    Rickey: Taking quotes out of context is par for the course for right-wingers such as Scott.

  84. avatar
    nbc May 13, 2013 at 2:53 am #

    JPotter: Wouldn’t surprise me if it turns out that this was a case of the IRS doing its duty to attempt to smoke out purely politically partisan entities attempting to masquerade as tax-exempt, just-a-bit political, but mainly social welfare, entities.

    It does not matter, the IRS should not target based on political viewpoints. Some of these low level employees messed up. Appropriate punishment and that should be the end of it. But know scott.e and his ilk, they will try to milk this as well. Poor sods.

  85. avatar
    Scientist May 13, 2013 at 6:58 am #

    Suranis: It’s a big nothing burger.

    Can I get fries with that?

  86. avatar
    rambo May 13, 2013 at 6:58 am #

    up untill (sic) this president, every president submitted a birth certificate by hand, not one generated on a computer anything can be falsified on a computer, theirfore (sic) since a hand written and hand signed document has never been submitted by the president, he is NOT considered legal in this country until he does!

    [To my knowledge, no President in US history has submitted a birth certificate, printed or written, to any authority to run for President. Obama released two to the Press; McCain showed one of unknown format to one reporter (Michael Dobbs), Trump and Romney released something to the press, and Eisenhower reportedly got one, although I don’t know that ever showed it to anyone. One wonders why the rambo character writes such utter nonsense unless it is just to provoke a reaction to the stupidity of the comment. Doc.]

    when you go to vote you have to show your drivers license, not a copy of one generated on a computer using your iphone or ipod

  87. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 8:16 am #

    Rickey: Taking quotes out of context is par for the course for right-wingers such as Scott.

    i’m not a reporter, most of the mainstream are just getting their sea legs back after a long cruise. watch the seal team six story. that’s all i’ll say about that.

  88. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 8:19 am #

    Scientist: I’m a bit confused scott.You claim to be a “conservative”.Conservatives are supposed to believe that when a murder is committed it is the murderer who is to blame, not the cops, society or anyone else.Yet, here you want to make an exception and blame the President, rather than those who actually killed.

    Strange and, dare I say it, very un-conservative of you..

    what kind of a scientist are you ?? (what area of science)

  89. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 8:21 am #

    nbc: Wow… I understand your position on evidence but when someone makes accusations based on Faux News reporting, they have the duty to research said evidence.

    Yes, and they will but not during an ongoing investigation. Do you have no common sense? You are nicely distracting from those who are really using the dead sons for their political advancements, and those are the republicans who have no intent to do anything that will further Obama’s agenda, even to the extent of driving our nation into the ground socially and economically.

    Needless to say, Scott believes that it is not the duty of those making accusations to support them.

    Yes, that makes a lot of sense in Scott’s world of ignorance, fear and hate…

    But common sense dictates that such accusations deserve a bit more than ‘Faux News’ said so, do you not agree?

    dude, you are wound tighter than an eight day clock…

  90. avatar
    Scientist May 13, 2013 at 8:27 am #

    scott e: what kind of a scientist are you ?? (what area of science)

    Biochemistry/immunology. What kind of scott are you? Why does a supposed conservative seek to blame other than the killers for murder?

    I answered your question, now it’s your turn

  91. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 13, 2013 at 8:40 am #

    Scientist: Biochemistry/immunology.What kind of scott are you?Why does a supposed conservative seek to blame other than the killers for murder?

    I answered your question, now it’s your turn

    That’s because he’s not a conservative and has no idea what the word means. Like most birthers they try to change the meaning of words to meet their narrow minded view.

  92. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 13, 2013 at 10:28 am #

    Oh, Scott still hasn’t answered the last round of questions someone asked him…over two days ago.

  93. avatar
    El Diablo Negro May 13, 2013 at 10:35 am #

    IIRC gov’t issued birth certificates started in the mid 1800’s….in England..

    That means at least POTUS #1 Washington to POTUS # 25 McKinley did not have one issued. It is probably more that that.

    rambo: up untill (sic) this president, every president submitted a birth certificate by hand

  94. avatar
    Monkey Boy May 13, 2013 at 10:45 am #

    scott e: before during and after. didn’t you see sean smith’s mother on Huckabee last night ?

    I wonder if you saw Cindy sheehan during the Bush years? Not much love for her loss, huh?

  95. avatar
    The Magic M May 13, 2013 at 10:53 am #

    rambo: up untill (sic) this president, every president submitted a birth certificate by hand,

    And this information is coming from where? Where are all those “handwritten BC’s” former Presidents “submitted”? Only Reagan’s is on display (y’know, the one created (!) decades after his birth, would like to hear your screams if Obama’s was like Ronnie’s). No other can be seen anywhere, not the internet, not the Presidential libraries, not the moon.

    rambo:not one generated on a computer anything can be falsified on a computer,

    But “anything […] falsified on a computer” would have a hard time getting an official confirmation by the issuing state, wouldn’t it?

    rambo:theirfore (sic) since a hand written and hand signed document has never been submitted by the president, he is NOT considered legal in this country until he does!

    Non sequitur. Even if all previous Presidents had submitted (which they didn’t) hand-written (which they didn’t) BC’s, it wouldn’t mean a printed BC wouldn’t suffice as long as the birth state considers it an official BC. Y’know, that pesky Full Faith and Credit clause?

    Your logic is that because no amputee ever coached a winning NBA team, the first one who does wouldn’t be a “legal NBA coach”.

  96. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 13, 2013 at 11:19 am #

    nbc: Funny how the Republican report on Benghazi praised the military for deploying quickly, instead focusing on the mistakes made by the State Department and claims that Clinton tried to hide this.

    Focusing on the probable 2016 Democratic Presidential candidate? Tell me it isn’t so!!

  97. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 13, 2013 at 11:31 am #

    scott e: watch the seal team six story. that’s all i’ll say about that.

    I presume you’re talking about the latest effort by Larry Klayman?

    http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/05/09/obama-put-a-target-on-their-backs-seal-team-6-family-members-say

    That’s all you can say? I guess so. Even USNews notes that “the press conference was long on speculation and short on concrete evidence…”

  98. avatar
    Monkey Boy May 13, 2013 at 11:33 am #

    rambo:
    up untill (sic) this president, every president submitted a birth certificate by hand, not one generated on a computer anything can be falsified on a computer, theirfore (sic) since a hand written and hand signed document has never been submitted by the president, he is NOT considered legal in this country until he does!
    when yougo to vote you have to show your drivers license, not a copy of one generated on a computer using your iphone or ipod

    Tee hee hee.

    You almost got me. Then I remembered that Twinky_Ike dropped off the map after the election and Floyd Brown pulled his stipend.

    Excellent parody.

  99. avatar
    Suranis May 13, 2013 at 11:36 am #

    That’s the only kind of news Scott there is capable of understanding. I doubt he could even recognise what fire even looks like at this point, he is so used to pointing at smoke.

    CarlOrcas: Even USNews notes that “the press conference was long on speculation and short on concrete evidence…”

  100. avatar
    misha marinsky May 13, 2013 at 11:41 am #

    rambo: since a hand written and hand signed document has never been submitted by the president, he is NOT considered legal in this country until he does!

    You should refuse to pay your taxes and traffic fines.

    rambo: when you go to vote you have to show your drivers license

    I never have. Voter ID laws are only in a few states, and most are being challenged.

  101. avatar
    richCares May 13, 2013 at 12:08 pm #

    “scott e: watch the seal team six story. that’s all i’ll say about that.”
    .
    do you mean the story where Obama sent in the seal team to rescue Jessica Buchanan, the story on Sunday’s 60 minutes, that one.
    See the story http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50146677n

  102. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 13, 2013 at 12:12 pm #

    I’m very angry over this IRS fiasco…I remember the Nixon misuse of the IRS and all of Watergate with a good deal of clarity…I was 13 at the time, and just old enough to understand that there was something wrong there. Since then, I’ve read books about Watergate, so I’m familiar with that idiocy.

    What the IRS did was wrong. You should never become what you behold. This is absolutely a violation of law and America’s fundamental core concepts, and while I have no love for “Tea Parties,” I do love the law and America’s fundamental core concepts. The “Tea Parties” are American political groups, and they should not be singled out for mistreatment or abuse by the government. Not only do I consider this illegal, but immoral.

    Furthermore, such IRS behavior plays into the “Tea Party” hands. Now they are the apparent victims of government misdeeds, making them objects of sympathy, and they can say, loudly, “I told you so.” Their prophecies become fulfillling.

    I am disgusted by this incident.

  103. avatar
    The Magic M May 13, 2013 at 12:25 pm #

    CarlOrcas: I presume you’re talking about the latest effort by Larry Klayman?

    Maybe someone should alert the SEAL families who they’re associating with. Willingly associating with the likes of Klayman can quickly get you labeled as less than honest…

    For the nutters, it’s the trifecta of scandals (Benghazi, SEAL team 6 death, SEAL team 6 “funeral” speech; the latter also invented by Klayman).

  104. avatar
    Scientist May 13, 2013 at 12:27 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: I am disgusted by this incident.

    The President shares your opinion http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/obama-calls-irs-targeting-scandal-outrageous

  105. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 12:41 pm #

    Monkey Boy: I wonder if you saw Cindy sheehan during the Bush years?Not much love for her loss, huh?

    I remember thinking, her son was the only one who was drafted.

  106. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 12:43 pm #

    richCares:
    “scott e: watch the seal team six story. that’s all i’ll say about that.”
    .
    do you mean the story where Obama sent in the seal team to rescue Jessica Buchanan, the story on Sunday’s 60 minutes, that one.
    See the story http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50146677n

    no, that was good though, I watched it, and about the wounded vets starting their own businesses, excellent !

  107. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 12:45 pm #

    Suranis:
    That’s the only kind of news Scott there is capable of understanding. I doubt he could even recognise what fire even looks like at this point, he is so used to pointing at smoke.

    well, I love my country just as much as you do.

  108. avatar
    sfjeff May 13, 2013 at 12:46 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: I’m very angry over this IRS fiasco…I remember the Nixon misuse of the IRS and all of Watergate with a good deal of clarity…I was 13 at the time, and just old enough to understand that there was something wrong there. Since then, I’ve read books about Watergate, so I’m familiar with that idiocy.What the IRS did was wrong. You should never become what you behold. This is absolutely a violation of law and America’s fundamental core concepts, and while I have no love for “Tea Parties,” I do love the law and America’s fundamental core concepts. The “Tea Parties” are American political groups, and they should not be singled out for mistreatment or abuse by the government. Not only do I consider this illegal, but immoral.Furthermore, such IRS behavior plays into the “Tea Party” hands. Now they are the apparent victims of government misdeeds, making them objects of sympathy, and they can say, loudly, “I told you so.” Their prophecies become fulfillling.I am disgusted by this incident.

    From what I have heard- so am I. I am willing to wait for more and more complete information to get very outraged, but this should be fully investigated and likely heads should roll. I hope the President acts far more decisively than Bush did in the Plame incident.

  109. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 12:55 pm #

    Scientist: Biochemistry/immunology.What kind of scott are you?Why does a supposed conservative seek to blame other than the killers for murder?

    I answered your question, now it’s your turn

    no need to be defensive, I was curious that’s all. are you a research MD. ? my dad was a research scientist, so I had that benefit of growing up under his umbrella.

    what kind of scott am I ? the musical kind I guess, but my favorite people are renaissance people, like Leonardo, ben franklin, and my dad. they were scientists, musical, inventors and free thinkers.

    Why does a supposed conservative seek to blame other than the killers for murder?

    I don’t know, I’ve never lost a child., and I can only speak for myself, unless people ask me to speak for them, which I have done.

    I think those that promised answers, would have been better to follow through. I thought, “Benghazi was a long time ago” was insensitive, and signaled a shift in the paradigm. if the shoe was on the other foot, I can’t help but think things would be playing out differently.

  110. avatar
    sfjeff May 13, 2013 at 1:03 pm #

    scott e: I will continue to try to connect those dots which link them to another, the Obama birth certificate and subsequent documentation.

    Scott, that would be more meaningful if you didn’t see dots everywhere you look.

    You came to a conclusion- supposedly when Obama showed voters the certified photocopy of his BC – that Obama was corrupt- and ever since then you have been looking for dots that would confirm your conclusion.

    You dismiss any dots that lead away from your conclusion, and are ever hopeful of any(seriously the Posse that can’t drive straight?) dots that might be going in the direction you are certain that they must be going.

    I think there is certainly more to be learned from Benghazi, but no matter how much you strain and push, there will never, ever be any linkage between Benghazi and Birther idiocy.

  111. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 13, 2013 at 1:13 pm #

    scott e: I remember thinking, her son was the only one who was drafted.

    Except there was no draft

  112. avatar
    gorefan May 13, 2013 at 1:19 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: I am disgusted by this incident.

    Unfortunately it is nothing new.

    http://recoveringliberal.com/?p=289

    “BUSH ADMINISTRATION TARGETS THE TAX EXEMPT STATUS OF A LIBERAL, ANTI-WAR, ANTI-BUSH CALIFORNIA CHURCH”

  113. avatar
    Scientist May 13, 2013 at 1:21 pm #

    scott e: are you a research MD. ?

    PhD

    scott e: Why does a supposed conservative seek to blame other than the killers for murder?

    I don’t know, I’ve never lost a child.,

    Those who lose a child should focus on who actually killed that child, rather than looking for a phony scandal. The killers are in Libya, not Washington-maybe she ought to camp out at the Libyan embassy, since it is really their responsibility to protect foreign diplomats in their country.

    Let me take the most favorable interpretation (to your side) of what happened in Benghazi:
    1. Inadequate security at an embassy-everyone agrees on that
    2. Possibly a rescue could have been attempted with unknown results-the military says it wasn’t possible, others says it might have worked. I tend to trust the military on that
    3. Possible spinning on Sunday talk shows

    Where in any of that are crimes, scandals, etc? Even #3-If spinning on Sunday talk shows were a crime, everyone in Washington would be in jail. As far as I can see, the only reason those shows exist is to have people from both sides come on and attempt to spin things to their favor (which is why I don’t watch them).

  114. avatar
    Majority Will May 13, 2013 at 1:28 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: Except there was no draft

    Cruiser: I joined the army ’cause my father and my brother were in the army. I thought I’d better join before I got drafted.

    Sergeant Hulka: Son, there ain’t no draft no more.

    Cruiser: There was one?

  115. avatar
    nbc May 13, 2013 at 1:36 pm #

    sfjeff: Scott, that would be more meaningful if you didn’t see dots everywhere you look.

    Well scott.e started from the premise that Obama, being from Chicago must therefor be corrupt and thus corruption should be found in his past, present and future. Thus anything that even ‘hints’ at some form of corruption is quickly embraced as ‘facts’.

    Fascinating to observe.

  116. avatar
    nbc May 13, 2013 at 1:39 pm #

    scott e: dude, you are wound tighter than an eight day clock…

    I understand that that’s the best response you have to offer in ‘defense’ of your own foolish comments? I am not surprised my friend, not at all.

  117. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 13, 2013 at 1:39 pm #

    scott e: I remember thinking, her son was the only one who was drafted.

    What alternate timeline did YOU step out of? The US hasn’t enacted conscription for decades.

  118. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 1:44 pm #

    Bob:
    I think Orly is just trying to piggyback on someone else’s efforts and trying to create the impression that she has an ally.From Orly’s website you can’t tell if this person gave her a polite brushoff or (more likely) that Orly merely sent her an email and never heard back.

    At any rate; please proceed Dr. Taitz.

    she has many allies, including me. I don’t think she has ever stood on the shoulders of others, that’s one reason I like her.

    she’s intrepid, like some of you.

  119. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 1:46 pm #

    gorefan: Unfortunately it is nothing new.

    http://recoveringliberal.com/?p=289

    “BUSH ADMINISTRATION TARGETS THE TAX EXEMPT STATUS OF A LIBERAL, ANTI-WAR, ANTI-BUSH CALIFORNIA CHURCH”

    nothing new, since the advent of American income tax, which may herald the end of the republic.

  120. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 1:47 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: What alternate timeline did YOU step out of? The US hasn’t enacted conscription for decades.

    I think Charlie rangle sponsored a bill, that two people voted for, that he wasn’t one of.

  121. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 1:48 pm #

    nbc: I understand that that’s the best response you have to offer in ‘defense’ of your own foolish comments? I am not surprised my friend, not at all.

    I feel good about that.

  122. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 13, 2013 at 1:48 pm #

    scott e: nothing new, since the advent of American income tax, which may herald the end of the republic.

    Ah, so that’ s your grievance…you’re a “SovCit” tax protestor!

    Funny, the income tax got dreamed up in 1913, and since then the US has become the world’s major superpower…

  123. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 1:50 pm #

    Majority Will: Cruiser: I joined the army ’cause my father and my brother were in the army. I thought I’d better join before I got drafted.

    Sergeant Hulka: Son, there ain’t no draft no more.

    Cruiser: There was one?

    they should have called him the dork….

  124. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 13, 2013 at 1:51 pm #

    scott e: nothing new, since the advent of American income tax, which may herald the end of the republic.

    Deflection will get you nowhere, Scott.

  125. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 1:51 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: Ah, so that’ s your grievance…you’re a “SovCit” tax protestor!

    Funny, the income tax got dreamed up in 1913, and since then the US has become the world’s major superpower…

    happy anniversary…

  126. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 1:56 pm #

    Scientist: PhD

    Those who lose a child should focus on who actually killed that child, rather than looking for a phony scandal.The killers are in Libya, not Washington-maybe she ought to camp out at the Libyan embassy, since it is really their responsibility to protect foreign diplomats in their country.

    Let me take the most favorable interpretation (to your side) of what happened in Benghazi:
    1. Inadequate security at an embassy-everyone agrees on that
    2. Possibly a rescue could have been attempted with unknown results-the military says it wasn’t possible, others says it might have worked.I tend to trust the military on that
    3. Possible spinning on Sunday talk shows

    Where in any of that are crimes, scandals, etc?Even #3-If spinning on Sunday talk shows were a crime, everyone in Washington would be in jail.As far as I can see, the only reason those shows exist is to have people from both sides come on and attempt to spin things to their favor (which is why I don’t watch them).

    I agree, Ph. d

    as with the birther controversy, my original premise has always been, was the power of elected office ever used to hide, mislead or cover up anything that should be transparent to the American people.

  127. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 1:57 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: Deflection will get you nowhere, Scott.

    my point exactly.

  128. avatar
    Scientist May 13, 2013 at 2:01 pm #

    scott e: as with the birther controversy, my original premise has always been, was the power of elected office ever used to hide, mislead or cover up anything that should be transparent to the American people.

    If that’s your standard, then all who have ever held elected office are guilty, from your local school board on up. Yet, as far as can I see, your are ONLY concerned with one person.

  129. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 13, 2013 at 2:06 pm #

    scott e
    as with the birther controversy, my original premise has always been, was the power of elected office ever used to hide, mislead or cover up anything that should be transparent to the American people.

    Careful! If you keep moving your goal posts, you’re likely to run out of places to put em.

    This has been the pattern with you, Scott:
    1. You make some idiotic birther statement.
    2. Someone corrects you, usually calling you out in the process.
    3. You deflect and start on another tangent.

    If you want people who are going to just nod at you/give you the illusion of being correct, may I suggest you stick to sites like Birther Report.

  130. avatar
    Scientist May 13, 2013 at 2:06 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: Ah, so that’ s your grievance…you’re a “SovCit” tax protestor!

    Funny, the income tax got dreamed up in 1913, and since then the US has become the world’s major superpower…

    Actually, Lincoln (a Republican) imposed an income tax during the Civil War. The revenue stream, which enabled the Union to sell bonds in Europe at yields orders of magnitudes less than Confederate bonds, were a significant factor in the outcome of the war.

    If scott’s faux concern over some IRS folks who misbehaved leads him to believe the income tax should be abolished, would he have felt the same back when tariffs on imports were the major source of revenue and some customs officials misbehaved (as happened regularly)?

  131. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 2:16 pm #

    Scientist: Actually, Lincoln (a Republican) imposed an income tax during the Civil War.The revenue stream, which enabled the Union to sell bonds in Europe at yields orders of magnitudes less than Confederate bonds, were a significant factor in the outcome of the war.

    If scott’s faux concern over some IRS folks who misbehaved leads him to believe the income tax shouldbe abolished, would he have felt the same backwhen tariffs on imports were the major source of revenue and some customs officials misbehaved (as happened regularly)?

    then why are we celebrating the centennial now ?? as I said abuse of power is nothing new. that doesn’t excuse it now. I don’t know sovcit

  132. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 2:18 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: Careful! If you keep moving your goal posts, you’re likely to run out of places to put em.

    This has been the pattern with you, Scott:
    1. You make some idiotic birther statement.
    2. Someone corrects you, usually calling you out in the process.
    3. You deflect and start on another tangent.

    If you want people who are going to just nod at you/give you the illusion of being correct, may I suggest you stick to sites like Birther Report.

    thanks, I might try that.

  133. avatar
    JPotter May 13, 2013 at 2:19 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: Funny, the income tax got dreamed up in 1913, and since then the US has become the world’s major superpower…

    I believe the correct, conspiratorial response is …. “Of course, that’s when we traded in the Blessed Republic for the Fed Empire.” …. mutterings about the passage of the 16th amendment … Jekyll island … Int’l Jewish Conspiracy, etc.

    Or something like that.

  134. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 2:20 pm #

    Scientist: If that’s your standard, then all who have ever held elected office are guilty, from your local school board on up.Yet, as far as can I see, your are ONLY concerned with one person.

    that’s ok…

  135. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 13, 2013 at 2:30 pm #

    scott e: then why are we celebrating the centennial now ?? as I said abuse of power is nothing new. that doesn’t excuse it now. I don’t know sovcit

    Don’t know “sovcit?” You sound like one. I think you’d be happier with them, whining about the Bilderbergers, the banks, the gold, and of course, the Jews.

    And the IRS actually did celebrate it, earlier this year. There was a segment about it on CBS Sunday Morning, which included an interview with the agency’s historian.

  136. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 13, 2013 at 2:32 pm #

    scott e: then why are we celebrating the centennial now ?? as I said abuse of power is nothing new. that doesn’t excuse it now. I don’t know sovcit

    Do you not have access to Google where you are?

    The income tax that Lincoln imposed during the Civil War was declared unconstitutional in 1895 because it wasn’t apportioned between the states.

    Subsequently the 16th amendment was written and finally approved in 1913.

  137. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 13, 2013 at 2:32 pm #

    Scientist: Actually, Lincoln (a Republican) imposed an income tax during the Civil War. The revenue stream, which enabled the Union to sell bonds in Europe at yields orders of magnitudes less than Confederate bonds, were a significant factor in the outcome of the war. If scott’s faux concern over some IRS folks who misbehaved leads him to believe the income tax should be abolished, would he have felt the same back when tariffs on imports were the major source of revenue and some customs officials misbehaved (as happened regularly)?

    This is true…the Civil War-era income tax was invented by Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase, who then ruled it unconstitutional as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Salmon P. Chase. Interesting guy. Gore Vidal makes him a comical character in his novel “Lincoln,” but I rate him higher than Vidal.

    The Civil War income tax was a temporary measure for the war, of course, but the 1913 tax is a permanent feature, like parking meters and insurance salesmen, and held in the same regard. However, all three are necessities.

  138. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 13, 2013 at 2:34 pm #

    JPotter: I believe the correct, conspiratorial response is …. “Of course, that’s when we traded in the Blessed Republic for the Fed Empire.” …. mutterings about the passage of the 16th amendment … Jekyll island … Int’l Jewish Conspiracy, etc.Or something like that.

    Don’t forget the Trotskyists, the Bilderbergers, various schools of economics, Freud, and the Masonic conspiracy that led to the First World War.

  139. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 13, 2013 at 2:39 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: This has been the pattern with you, Scott:
    1. You make some idiotic birther statement.
    2. Someone corrects you, usually calling you out in the process.
    3. You deflect and start on another tangent.

    It’s not just Scotty it’s every birther. Birthers all have short attention spans it seems. Everytime they’re called on their BS claims they refuse to acknowledge it and instead throw out some other BS claim.

  140. avatar
    Scientist May 13, 2013 at 2:45 pm #

    scott e: that’s ok…

    What’s OK? Holding one person to a standard that you don’t hold anyone else to?

    Let me paraphrase your argument for simplicity’s sake: Barack Obama is a politician, not a candidate for sainthood. Like all members of his profession and like the 99.99999999% of humans who are not candidates for sainthood (including you and me) he occasionally stretches and bends the facts.

    In which case, I agree with you and say, “So what?”

  141. avatar
    nbc May 13, 2013 at 3:00 pm #

    scott e: that’s ok…

    Is it?… I understand your focus but it quickly becomes somewhat hypocritical and worse, your biases cloud your ability to apply logic and reason.

    We see a lot of this in the US nowadays, especially on the right, which is partially due to the ‘conservative mind’ which needs group thinking, certainty, and has a dislike for outsiders. Makes for great religious people but very narrow thinkers. Similarly the liberal mind has some problems as well as it is far more based on emotion and rationality.

  142. avatar
    Scientist May 13, 2013 at 3:01 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: This is true…the Civil War-era income tax was invented by Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase, who then ruled it unconstitutional as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Salmon P. Chase. Interesting guy. Gore Vidal makes him a comical character in his novel “Lincoln,” but I rate him higher than Vidal.

    Back when they had a $10,000 bill, Chase was on it. I’ve always wanted to have one and take it in to buy a coffee, give it to the barista and ask for $9,998 in change.

    Chase Bank was apparently named for him, but he had no actual connection to it.

  143. avatar
    nbc May 13, 2013 at 3:03 pm #

    and 4. claim victory… Don’t forget the claiming victory where scott.e is unable to see his own follies. Overestimation of one’s abilities is one aspect of the Dunning Kruger effect.

    The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: Careful! If you keep moving your goal posts, you’re likely to run out of places to put em.

    This has been the pattern with you, Scott:
    1. You make some idiotic birther statement.
    2. Someone corrects you, usually calling you out in the process.
    3. You deflect and start on another tangent.

    If you want people who are going to just nod at you/give you the illusion of being correct, may I suggest you stick to sites like Birther Report.

  144. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 3:06 pm #

    nbc:
    and 4. claim victory… Don’t forget the claiming victory where scott.e is unable to see his own follies. Overestimation of one’s abilities is one aspect of the Dunning Kruger effect.

    one could say the same for or about you ??

  145. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 3:14 pm #

    Scientist: Back when they had a $10,000 bill, Chase was on it.I’ve always wanted to have one and take it in to buy a coffee, give it to the barista and ask for $9,998 in change.

    Chase Bank was apparently named for him, buthe had no actual connection to it.

    he too was impeached, the only supreme ever, but acquitted. samuel, not salmon.

    that would be a good gag, like steve martin took an audience to mcdonald’s ordered a hundred hamburgers and one order of fries. andy kaufman with the milk and cookies… lol

  146. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 3:18 pm #

    nbc: Is it?… I understand your focus but it quickly becomes somewhat hypocritical and worse, your biases cloud your ability to apply logic and reason.

    We see a lot of this in the US nowadays, especially on the right, which is partially due to the ‘conservative mind’ which needs group thinking, certainty, and has a dislike for outsiders. Makes for great religious people but very narrow thinkers. Similarly the liberal mind has some problems as well as it is far more based on emotion and rationality.

    you are no more important than I… isn’t that what this is about ??

  147. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 3:20 pm #

    Scientist: What’s OK?Holding one person to a standard that you don’t hold anyone else to?

    Let me paraphrase your argument for simplicity’s sake: Barack Obama is a politician, not a candidate for sainthood.Like all members of his profession and like the 99.99999999% of humans who are not candidates for sainthood (including you and me) he occasionally stretches and bends the facts.

    In which case, I agree with you and say, “So what?”

    I was only kidding before when I said send me the obot script, or just say what you want and sign my name to it, others do, why not you ??

    maybe not.

  148. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 3:23 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: Don’t forget the Trotskyists, the Bilderbergers, various schools of economics, Freud, and the Masonic conspiracy that led to the First World War.

    I loved the Trotsky episode of Seinfeld. Elaine says “and you dress like Trotsky !” her boyfriend says “GOOD!” . any Seinfeld with mickey in it is great, they’re all great.

  149. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 3:25 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Do you not have access to Google where you are?

    The income tax that Lincoln imposed during the Civil War was declared unconstitutional in 1895 because it wasn’t apportioned between the states.

    Subsequently the 16th amendment was written and finally approved in 1913.

    what’s google ??

  150. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 3:26 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: Don’t know “sovcit?” You sound like one. I think you’d be happier with them, whining about the Bilderbergers, the banks, the gold, and of course, the Jews.

    And the IRS actually did celebrate it, earlier this year. There was a segment about it on CBS Sunday Morning, which included an interview with the agency’s historian.

    I googled it but I got soviet instead. sorry

  151. avatar
    Scientist May 13, 2013 at 3:27 pm #

    scott e: he too was impeached, the only supreme ever, but acquitted. samuel, not salmon.

    So why mention Samuel in a discussion of Salmon? They were not related nor connected at all. Your neural circuits seem not quite right.

  152. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 13, 2013 at 3:30 pm #

    scott e: what’s google ??

    It’s capitalized.

  153. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 13, 2013 at 3:42 pm #

    scott e: he too was impeached, the only supreme ever, but acquitted. samuel, not salmon.that would be a good gag, like steve martin took an audience to mcdonald’s ordered a hundred hamburgers and one order of fries. andy kaufman with the milk and cookies… lol

    No, it’s “Salmon P. Chase.” I just looked it up.

  154. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 13, 2013 at 3:59 pm #

    scott e: one could say the same for or about you ??

    No, no they couldn’t.
    “Victory” rests with the side whose arguments are backed up by the law, or rather those who understand and enforce it. Remind me again, how many of the 200+ Birther ballot jihad cases have you guys actually won?

  155. avatar
    Suranis May 13, 2013 at 4:01 pm #

    400 court rulings and precedent going back 200 years is one hell of a lot of backup.

    Having the courts actually agree with one is a novelty for you, I know. Sadly its a feeling I expect you will never have.

    scott e: one could say the same for or about you ??

  156. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 4:25 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: No, no they couldn’t.
    “Victory” rests with the side whose arguments are backed up by the law, or rather those who understand and enforce it. Remind me again, how many of the 200+ Birther ballot jihad cases have you guys actually won?

    Edison and the lightbulb. hey do you guys like pat caddell, miss Kirsten powers or bob beckel ?

    I love them for their intellectual honesty, even beckel, who is a curmudgeon

    scientist, would you want to comment on failure and science and progress for your people ?

    you could do a much better job of explaining this than i.

  157. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 4:31 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: No, it’s “Salmon P. Chase.” I just looked it up.

    no relation.

  158. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 4:34 pm #

    Scientist: So why mention Samuel in a discussion of Salmon?They were not related nor connected at all.Your neural circuits seem not quite right.

    the supreme court and impeachment ? my synapses are fine, as far as you know

  159. avatar
    nbc May 13, 2013 at 4:45 pm #

    scott e: one could say the same for or about you ??

    One could but the case to be made is quite weak as I base my convictions on known facts, legal rulings and precedent, original documents. Birthers, not so much, they try to reinterpret the clear rulings by our Courts, they speculate about minor issues and discrepancies, are working from the presumption that our president could under no circumstance be natural born and from there, their biases lead them down a road of misunderstanding, ignorance, and even misrepresentation.

    Sorry Scott, I am too a victim of the effect but in reverse

    Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. David Dunning and Justin Kruger of Cornell University conclude, “the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others”.

    I foolishly expect some level of competence of others when they engage in an argument. So I ask for logic and reason behind claims, foolishly expecting to actually be communicating with someone interested in such.

  160. avatar
    nbc May 13, 2013 at 4:52 pm #

    scott e: you are no more important than I… isn’t that what this is about ??

    Nope, it is not about people, it’s about their abilities to apply reason and logic and understand why some have a dislike for uncertainty that comes with logic and reason and would rather adhere to group thinking.

    Until you realize that while you are free to make unsupported and even foolish assertions, this does not make them on equal standing with the arguments that follow from logic and reason and a factual determination rather than pure speculation.

    It has nothing to do with personalities as much as understanding the foundation and failures of their claims.

    Once you become aware of your own short comings, there is a potential to change. Sadly enough, our cognitive abilities may prevent some of us realizing our own limitations.

    Your ‘arguments’, you inability or unwillingness to address your mistakes, all are well in line with the Dunning Kruger effect. As to the Conservative Brain, there are some good books that may help you understand your genetic burdens.

  161. avatar
    JD Reed May 13, 2013 at 5:12 pm #

    Dave:
    I would like to encourage Taitz to “start recall efforts” for Senators and Representatives, because it will be entertaining to see how she proceeds on a task which does not legally exist.

    Excellent point, Dave. But since when has the fact that something does not exist as a legal avenue ever stopped Orly?

  162. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 13, 2013 at 5:30 pm #

    scott e: he too was impeached, the only supreme ever, but acquitted. samuel, not salmon.
    that would be a good gag, like steve martin took an audience to mcdonald’s ordered a hundred hamburgers and one order of fries. andy kaufman with the milk and cookies… lol

    No Scotty Don’t, Salmon P Chase not Samuel. This is why people can’t take you seriously you can’t even get simple details correct. He also wasn’t impeached. No wonder you’re a birther things like facts don’t seem to matter to you.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmon_P._Chase

  163. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 13, 2013 at 5:33 pm #

    scott e: the supreme court and impeachment ? my synapses are fine, as far as you know

    Apparently not since we were talking about Salmon P Chase you mentioned he was the only supreme impeached you got part of those words right. He presided over an impeachment trial just not his own as Andrew Johnson was the one being impeached.

  164. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 5:35 pm #

    nbc: One could but the case to be made is quite weak as I base my convictions on known facts, legal rulings and precedent, original documents. Birthers, not so much, they try to reinterpret the clear rulings by our Courts, they speculate about minor issues and discrepancies, are working from the presumption that our president could under no circumstance be natural born and from there, their biases lead them down a road of misunderstanding, ignorance, and even misrepresentation.

    Sorry Scott, I am too a victim of the effect but in reverse

    I foolishly expect some level of competence of others when they engage in an argument. So I ask for logic and reason behind claims, foolishly expecting to actually be communicating with someone interested in such.

    sorry counselor, on one hand you say, I make no argument (aggregated), then “in your arguments”, then, always from your perch of selfless edification, you complain simultaneously about feeling foolish for expecting the best from others.

    introspection sometimes be thine only friend.

    all of you infer that because this epic hasn’t ended on your timeline, there can be no controversy, I submit that is simply not true.

    in the grand scheme of things, what we say here is not in the scope of the big arena.
    we are ancillary but not primary. in the political maelstrom we are relatively unimportant.

    while I appreciate your stance, what happens will happen, irrespective of what we say do here or what people think on obscure political forums.

    but I do enjoy your company, you are all very smart people, albeit condescending at times. nobody here is a victim, except maybe that nice miss deborah you all scared away.

    when you said effect, I just flashed on the coriolis, why I don’t know…vortex maybe..

    …. hey it’s happy hour, sam adams is calling me from the bar fridge, he was a brewer and a patriot you know. i’m trying to decide which is tastier, sam adams or long trail. don’t take any of this too seriously. that’s what I tell sfjeff. whom, incidentally is also a brewer and a patriot.

    i’ll be back.

  165. avatar
    Scientist May 13, 2013 at 5:39 pm #

    scott e: …. hey it’s happy hour,

    i’ll be back.

    Given the nonsense you write when sober, I hesitate to even imagine what you will say after a couple of drinks.

  166. avatar
    nbc May 13, 2013 at 5:50 pm #

    scott e: sorry counselor, on one hand you say, I make no argument (aggregated), then “in your arguments”, then, always from your perch of selfless edification, you complain simultaneously about feeling foolish for expecting the best from others.

    You throw out random ‘beliefs’ and then when asked to support them or when they are rejected, you show no interest in further pursuing them or even admitting to your errors.

    Yes, it is somewhat foolish to expect the best from others, especially when they have shown themselves to be unwilling to engage in anything more than just random assertions, trolling while showing little effort to engage in a debate on the issues.

    Benghazi is a good example but there are many others. Perhaps I should just get used to the fact that a discussion with you that extends beyond the throwing out of random feelings and assertions, is unlikely going to happen.

    all of you infer that because this epic hasn’t ended on your timeline, there can be no controversy, I submit that is simply not true.

    All of us… Really, is that the kind of argument that you believe will get you heard? I am not sure what epic you are referring to or even why you believe that all/some/any of us even hold such a belief, but I can surely tell you that there is no controversy when it comes to the birth certificate/eligibility issues other than the foolish opinions of some who just so thoroughly hate our president that they will do anything.

    As to Benghazi, I believe that the regrettable and perhaps preventable incident will help us move forward but some appear to be less interested in learning and moving forward and more interested in political grand standing, pretending to be ‘patriots’ just doing their duty, but fully unfamiliar with the relevant timelines.

  167. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 13, 2013 at 5:52 pm #

    Scientist: Given the nonsense you write when sober, I hesitate to even imagine what you will say after a couple of drinks.

    Maybe when he gets drunk, he’ll get his facts about Salmon P. Chase straight.

    And try not to derail the discussion with irrelevancies about income tax.

    My taxes are a pain in the neck, too. I remind myself that they pay for the National Park Service.

  168. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 13, 2013 at 6:36 pm #

    Scott is a kid. Gotta be. These are the same kind of silly posting tactics you see teenagers and the extremely immature use on Gamefaqs, N4G, or 4chan. The happy hour comment was the clincher.

  169. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 6:52 pm #

    Given the nonsense you write when sober, I hesitate to even imagine what you will say after a couple of drinks.

    *****

    go ahead, you have center stage, everyone is looking at you now, what do you want to say ?
    by all means, be imaginative.

  170. avatar
    sfjeff May 13, 2013 at 7:22 pm #

    This is what Scott said at PF, when I pointed out once again that Birthers ask for the BC from one and only one President- the non-white one- here was his response:

    “I’ve said many times we should vet them equally, and will continue to do so. just because you draw loose conclusions to birther racism, doesn’t mean they’re true.”

    So my challenge to Scott:

    So show me your threads that you started regarding Romney’s birth certificate?

    That shouldn’t be hard, right after all “I’ve said many times we should vet them equally”

    Show us all of the threads where you demanded Romney show us his original birth certificate.

    Go for it.

    I post it here- because I fully expect Scott to dance away on PF

  171. avatar
    Monkey Boy May 13, 2013 at 7:54 pm #

    scott e: I remember thinking, her son was the only one who was drafted.

    Another deflection which does nothing to address the implied question.

    Cindy Sheehan lost her only son due to malfeasance of scumbag politicians that cavalierly put him in harms way for no good reason and to no good end; where is the outrage about that? Why don’t you insist that the neo-cons and dim-wit Bush be held accountable for that mother’s grief.

    RWers and birthers are foul liars and hypocrites.

  172. avatar
    nbc May 13, 2013 at 7:58 pm #

    Monkey Boy: Another deflection which does nothing to address the implied question.

    My goodness Scott.e, they are on to you… Why would that be?

  173. avatar
    nbc May 13, 2013 at 8:00 pm #

    sfjeff: I post it here- because I fully expect Scott to dance away on PF

    His dancing skills on this site are also quite well exposed I’d say. So don’t hold your breath.

  174. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 8:29 pm #

    Monkey Boy: Another deflection which does nothing to address the implied question.

    Cindy Sheehan lost her only son due to malfeasance of scumbag politicians that cavalierly put him in harms way for no good reason and to no good end;where is the outrage about that?Why don’t you insist that the neo-cons and dim-wit Bush be held accountable for that mother’s grief.

    RWers and birthers are foul liars and hypocrites.

    stump for saddam if you like, I’ve seen the pictures, I know what he did. I am proud that we as a nation ended his seemingly endless reign of terror. nothing you can ever say or do will change my mind.

    and if it’s found someday that Syria’s wmd chemicals came from Iraq, so be it. in the aftermath of the second gulf war, they found 550 tons of yellowcake that was subsequently shipped to Canada. scott ritter got it wrong, that’s my position, that’s what I believe, no pseudointellectual bleeding heart liberal will ever take that away. there were no lies, I think Iraq is a better place.

    cindy’s son volunteered for the service, he didn’t have to. when you step into the ring expect to get hit, when you become a soldier, assume the risk. they are all always warriors first.

    btw, I think it’s long trail, but I am partial to Vermont… for I too, am a brewer and a patriot, I am just as American as any of you, notwithstanding the irish guy…

    i’m assuming by your insults that none of you enjoy happy hour or touch alcohol (by your sanctimony), again nothwithstanding the irish guy…lol (just kidding).

    I know sfjeff likes to have a glass of wine and stare at the bridge..

  175. avatar
    scott e May 13, 2013 at 8:45 pm #

    sfjeff:
    This is what Scott said at PF, when I pointed out once again that Birthers ask for the BC from one and only one President- the non-white one- here was his response:

    “I’ve said many times we should vet them equally, and will continue to do so. just because you draw loose conclusions to birther racism, doesn’t mean they’re true.”

    So my challenge to Scott:

    So show me your threads that you started regarding Romney’s birth certificate?

    That shouldn’t be hard, right after all “I’ve said many times we should vet them equally”

    Show us all of the threads where you demanded Romney show us his original birth certificate.

    Go for it.

    I post it here- because I fully expect Scott to dance away on PF

    jeff you just got busted at PF for calling out a guy for racism that is married to an Asian and has a black daughter.

    are you really here for consolation, and to lecture me on ethics ??

    you used to be a nice guy, you lay down with hyenas, now you just run with the pack.

    show me where I’ve said we should vet one candidate, but not another.

  176. avatar
    nbc May 13, 2013 at 9:00 pm #

    scott e: I know what he did. I am proud that we as a nation ended his seemingly endless reign of terror. nothing you can ever say or do will change my mind.

    Yes, that’s the scott.e we have come to appreciate. But was it worth lying to our Nation and the cost of thousands of dead Americans and hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi?

    What about North Korea then? Oh I forgot, they do not have oil.

  177. avatar
    nbc May 13, 2013 at 9:03 pm #

    scott e: 550 tons of yellowcake that was subsequently shipped to Canada. scott ritter got it wrong, that’s my position, that’s what I believe, no pseudointellectual bleeding heart liberal will ever take that away. there were no lies,

    No lies… ROTFL… You’re so funny in exposing your biases. As to the yellow cake, perhaps some facts may help But then again, you have already made up your mind…

    Such follies

  178. avatar
    nbc May 13, 2013 at 9:04 pm #

    scott e: cindy’s son volunteered for the service, he didn’t have to. when you step into the ring expect to get hit, when you become a soldier, assume the risk. they are all always warriors first.

    I assume that is what you will tell Sean Smith’s mother as well? Or is that different…?

    ROTFL

  179. avatar
    nbc May 13, 2013 at 9:06 pm #

    scott e: show me where I’ve said we should vet one candidate, but not another.

    ROTFL… I guess your focus on president obama and not on Romney is not sufficient evidence… Hilarious… You’re so funny my friend, so funny.

  180. avatar
    nbc May 13, 2013 at 9:08 pm #

    scott e: stump for saddam if you like

    That is totally illogical my friend. I suggest you may want to apologize for your foolish comments?

    You totally switched the topic. And painted yourself in a corner as well… You can thank “Sam” for that.

  181. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 13, 2013 at 9:45 pm #

    nbc: That is totally illogical my friend. I suggest you may want to apologize for your foolish comments?

    You totally switched the topic. And painted yourself in a corner as well… You can thank “Sam” for that.

    Scotty switched topics? You’re kidding it’s not like he never does that.

  182. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 13, 2013 at 9:46 pm #

    nbc: Yes, that’s the scott.e we have come to appreciate. But was it worth lying to our Nation and the cost of thousands of dead Americans and hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi?

    What about North Korea then? Oh I forgot, they do not have oil.

    Or say Darfur which totally got ignored by George W

  183. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 13, 2013 at 9:48 pm #

    scott e: cindy’s son volunteered for the service, he didn’t have to. when you step into the ring expect to get hit, when you become a soldier, assume the risk. they are all always warriors first.

    Gee and so did the woman you’re talking abouts son. But you blamed Obama for her son’s death and not Bush for Cindy Sheehan’s son’s death. What’s the difference in your selective outrage Scotty?

  184. avatar
    nbc May 13, 2013 at 9:53 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: Gee and so did the woman you’re talking abouts son. But you blamed Obama for her son’s death and not Bush for Cindy Sheehan’s son’s death. What’s the difference in your selective outrage Scotty?

    I think we all know that by now. Nothing we are saying is going to change scott.e’s ‘mind’, which is a terrible thing to waste…

  185. avatar
    Majority Will May 13, 2013 at 9:55 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: Gee and so did the woman you’re talking abouts son. But you blamed Obama for her son’s death and not Bush for Cindy Sheehan’s son’s death.What’s the difference in your selective outrage Scotty?

    And one of the true marks of a bigoted, delusional moron is someone who thinks being married to an Asian and having a black daughter magically excludes him or her from being racist. Do you get a special membership card in the mail?

    Repeatedly lying by omission and cowardly moving the goalposts are also blatant giveaways.

  186. avatar
    Monkey Boy May 13, 2013 at 10:17 pm #

    scott e: stump for saddam if you like, I’ve seen the pictures, I know what he did. I am proud that we as a nation ended his seemingly endless reign of terror. nothing you can ever say or do will change my mind.

    Did you see the pictures from Abu Gharaib? Instead of closing down imaginary “rape rooms,” it seems that Bush created his own while sleazy hypocrites cheered him on.

    and if it’s found someday that Syria’s wmd chemicals came from Iraq, so be it. in the aftermath of the second gulf war, they found 550 tons of yellowcake that was subsequently shipped to Canada. scott ritter got it wrong, that’s my position, that’s what I believe, no pseudointellectual bleeding heart liberal will ever take that away. there were no lies, I think Iraq is a better place.

    Lie, spin and deflect! That’s how RW sociopaths roll. I won’t bother the refute the “…there were no lies” lie, because they are so apparent.

    I’m sure the Iraqi people would wholeheartedly agree that they are “better off” with their infrastructure destroyed, millions displaced, a foreign occupation force invading their homes at all hours of the night and feeling up their wives and daughters. And the several hundred-thousand who were “liberated” from their earthly travails should especially be thankful, for their troubles have ended.

    cindy’s son volunteered for the service, he didn’t have to. when you step into the ring expect to get hit, when you become a soldier, assume the risk. they are all always warriors first.

    Yes, indeed. To bad the Seals were coerced into entering a high-risk MOS.

    btw, I think it’s long trail, but I am partial to Vermont… for I too, am a brewer and a patriot, I am just as American as any of you, notwithstanding the irish guy…

    You blaspheme and and demean the word patriot!

    i’m assuming by your insults that none of you enjoy happy hour or touch alcohol (by your sanctimony), again nothwithstanding the irish guy…lol (just kidding).

    I stopped recreational drinking more than a decade ago when I moved to Canada(high taxes), though I do occasionally blowup my food budget for a good Cabernet Savignon and leg of lamb.

    I know sfjeff likes to have a glass of wine and stare at the bridge..

  187. avatar
    Steve May 13, 2013 at 10:19 pm #

    FWIW, I remember hearing something about Glenn Doherty and Christopher Stevens’ parents saying they didn’t want their sons’ deaths politicized.
    I believe the Dohertys in particular, said last fall that Romney did not speak for them.

  188. avatar
    Suranis May 13, 2013 at 10:41 pm #

    No the didn’t FIND that yellowcake, you ignorant liar, and I’ve told you that before. Here’s the real story

    That Yellowcake had been sitting at the same spot from when the Isrealis destroyed the Osirak nuclear plant in Operation opera in 1981

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera

    Since then the site had been constantly inspected by nuclear inspectors who found nothing out of place. In 1998, the UN placed seals on the barrels at Osirak so that they would know if someone had tried to open them. When they came back BEFORE the second Gulf war, they found those seals intact.

    They didn’t “find them” because they had known they were sitting there for 20 years and no Iraqi had gone near them. And you are telling me that Saddam was trying to buy yellowcake from Uganda when he had 600 metric tonnes of the stuff sitting 17 kilometers from Baghdad??? And they KNEW he hadn’t tried to make nuclear weapons out of the stuff prior to the invasion because Saddam had allowed UN inspectors unrestricted access, AND THEY VISITED THE SITE 4 MONTHS BEFORE THE WAR.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/12/09/sproject.irq.un.inspections/

    Bush knew all that and invaded anyway.

    And you can mew all you want about Saddam being such and awful person, but the fact is that The UN Sanctions to prevent him making WMD’s actually worked, and now Iraq is pretty much a client state of Iran, making Iran far more powerful in the region. Iraq was a relatively stable secular state prior to the second gulf war. Now its an Islamic republic with non functional infrastructure, and over a million Iraqis are dead from constant sectarian violence. I guess you think they are all better off, huh?

    scott e: and if it’s found someday that Syria’s wmd chemicals came from Iraq, so be it. in the aftermath of the second gulf war, they found 550 tons of yellowcake that was subsequently shipped to Canada. scott ritter got it wrong, that’s my position, that’s what I believe, no pseudointellectual bleeding heart liberal will ever take that away. there were no lies, I think Iraq is a better place.

  189. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 13, 2013 at 10:48 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG:
    Scott is a kid. Gotta be. These are the same kind of silly posting tactics you see teenagers and the extremely immature use on Gamefaqs, N4G, or 4chan. The happy hour comment was the clincher.

    Well, in that case, I’ll listen to Scott when he’s gained some years and lost some heat.

    Until then, onwards.

  190. avatar
    nbc May 13, 2013 at 11:04 pm #

    Suranis: No the didn’t FIND that yellowcake, you ignorant liar, and I’ve told you that before. Here’s the real story

    Did he not admit that he would never let us change his mind on these issues?

    Scott.e

    they found 550 tons of yellowcake that was subsequently shipped to Canada. scott ritter got it wrong, that’s my position, that’s what I believe, no pseudointellectual bleeding heart liberal will ever take that away. there were no lies, I think Iraq is a better place

    Such a lovely place to be in, ignorant bliss or is it blissful ignorance?

  191. avatar
    Keith May 13, 2013 at 11:23 pm #

    scott e: no, that was good though, I watched it, and about the wounded vets starting their own businesses, excellent !

    Glad you think so.

    Remember this: Veterans’ bill voted down by GOP as Senate Democrats proclaim ‘new low’?

    Because you can be sure the Vets do.

    And notice what kind of jobs were targeted? Police and Fire. Civilian security! Law and Order! I thought the conservative mind was absolutely fixated on law and order!?

  192. avatar
    Keith May 13, 2013 at 11:32 pm #

    scott e: I don’t think she has ever stood on the shoulders of others, that’s one reason I like her.

    That’s why she is stuck at the bottom of the hole which she dug for herself and just keeps making deeper and deeper.

  193. avatar
    Monkey Boy May 14, 2013 at 12:25 am #

    It seems that the formerly highly prolific and eternally duplicitous Scott has disappeared from the thread. Here’s hoping he doesn’t OD on single-malt.

  194. avatar
    Lani May 14, 2013 at 1:11 am #

    Monkey Boy:
    It seems that the formerly highly prolific and eternally duplicitous Scott has disappeared from the thread.Here’s hoping he doesn’t OD on single-malt.

    He’ll just pop up on another thread and create new stories or resurrect old discredited ones. He gets a lot of attention here and isn’t about to give it up.

  195. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 1:51 am #

    scott e: she has many allies, including me. I don’t think she has ever stood on the shoulders of others, that’s one reason I like her.

    That’s fascinating, why would you support someone like Orly Taitz who, in addition to be quite clueless about proper court procedures, also continues to fail to litigate her case against an empty chair?

    Anything particular that you believe she has to offer that has any foundation in reality?

    Obama’s foreign birth
    Loss of citizenship
    Vattel’s interpretation

    Or her more esoteric claims about the birth certificates or the ssn number?

    Orly has so often been totally wrong that I wonder why people still support her follies? Is it because she is so anti Omaba? Or that you will not let facts stand in your way?

  196. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 1:52 am #

    scott e: nothing new, since the advent of American income tax, which may herald the end of the republic.

    You’re hilarious…
    Not very factual or logical but certainly funny in your follies.

  197. avatar
    Lupin May 14, 2013 at 4:11 am #

    scott e: I am proud that we as a nation ended his seemingly endless reign of terror. nothing you can ever say or do will change my mind.

    That’s because you’re a feeble-minded, gullible idiot.

    At this point in time history has pretty much rendered its verdict on the US invasion of Iraq and all the lies spread by the Bush-Blair cabal have been thoroughly discredited.

    While I wish Bush, Blair, Rumsfeld, Cheney et al could be dragged before a international Nuremberg-type tribunal and pay for their crimes, I derive some small consolation from seeing that British comedians routinely juxtapose Blair with war crimes when they make jokes about him, just as Jon Stewart in the US never let go of Cheyney’s role.

    I also suspect that with the passage of time, they will find travel abroad increasingly risky, just as Pinochet did, or risk being detained by a foreign jurisdiction.

    They may not pay for their crimes adequately, but their legacy will always and forever be tainted with their war crimes. I suppose it’s better than nothing.

  198. avatar
    Scientist May 14, 2013 at 6:30 am #

    scott e: I think Iraq is a better place.

    Let’s, for the sake of argument, take that to be true. Where in the US Constitution, or in international law or anywhere else is the justification for the US or Britain or anyone else to run around making this or that country “a better place”? And where does it stop? Surely, Iraq under Saddam was a paradise as compared with the Kim family prison of North Korea. Iraqis under Saddam generally ate well, could leave the country and were generally pretty aware of what was going on in the outside world. North Koreans starve and have all access to the outside denied. Your justification is simply a formula for endless war as we “liberate” North Korea, Syria, Iran, Cuba, Zimbabwe, etc., and then why not invade China because, after all, they certainly have political prisoners? And let’s invade Russia to spring Pussy Riot from jail too, while we’re at it. Where does it end in scott world?

    By the way, I am not a total non-interventionist. I strongly support international intervention to stop on-going genocide and massacres. I agree with Bill Clinton that his decision not to intervene in Rwanda was his worst failure (and, Lupin, a bigger one for Mitterand, since France intervenes in far less serious cases in French-speaking Africa, and they actually armed the genocidaires). Intervention in Iraq in 1991 when Saddam was actually massacring Shiites might have been justified. I know Bush Jr though he was making up for Bush Sr’s inaction, but it doesn’t work that way.

  199. avatar
    Lupin May 14, 2013 at 6:58 am #

    Scientist: Lupin, a bigger one for Mitterand, since France intervenes in far less serious cases in French-speaking Africa, and they actually armed the genocidaires

    I couldn’t agree more! A shameful policy — not as an excuse but as a way of explaining, Africa is still divided in the minds of our politicos (in France and in the UK) into former colonial lines — the French will intervene in former French Africa, and the Brits in former British Africa, so in the minds of Mitterand’s team, Rwanda was Britain’s turf, or mess to clean up. Ivory Coast, Senegal, Mali, etc are “ours”. Again, not at all an excuse but a (partial) explanation.

    I read somewhere that when the US invaded Iraq, they were still relying on tribal information put together by Lawrence (“of Arabia”). The consequences of colonization are very long-lasting and still show up in surprising fashion.

  200. avatar
    Northland10 May 14, 2013 at 7:18 am #

    scott e: she has many allies, including me. I don’t think she has ever stood on the shoulders of others, that’s one reason I like her.

    She doesn’t stand on the shoulders of others because she knocked them all over when she made a beeline to the cameras. Starting with Berg, she has never done her own research but, instead, took from others and danced around the courtroom and Internet screaming, “Look at Me!!!!!”

  201. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 7:22 am #

    I guess i’m good at getting a reaction, which is good for all of us. this is why i’m here. I like to argue with smart people. written is good, for obvious reasons.

    give me a little time, and I will attempt to respond. assume that I won’t though if proposed in a nasty way. I just don’t have much tolerance for mean spirited people, let’s all try to be nice, and have a nice discussion.

    I think it’s great that kevin provides a place to do that. I used to enjoy john woodman’s forum. I thought some of you changed the dynamics there. and now he’s gone. we exchanged lot’s of email when the board got ugly. woodman is an interesting case as it pertains to the birthersphere.

  202. avatar
    Scientist May 14, 2013 at 7:23 am #

    Lupin: I couldn’t agree more! A shameful policy — not as an excuse but as a way of explaining, Africa is still divided in the minds of our politicos (in France and in the UK) into former colonial lines — the French will intervene in former French Africa, and the Brits in former British Africa, so in the minds of Mitterand’s team, Rwanda was Britain’s turf, or mess to clean up. Ivory Coast, Senegal, Mali, etc are “ours”. Again, not at all an excuse but a (partial) explanation.

    But Rwanda was a Belgian colony and had never, so far as I know, been British. It is French, not English-speaking. Worst of all, France had been arming the Hutu genocidaires. I was living in France at the time and remember this pretty well. When Mitterrand died a year or 2 later, one of my friends said, “Il restera a l’enfer”. And that is not to even get into his collaboration during Vichy.

    Putting all that aside, Clinton should have given France (and anyone else in Europe) a very quick deadline, and, failing action on their part, sent in the Marines. Unlike in Iraq or Afghanistan, a few thousand troops would have done the job in a few days.

  203. avatar
    Scientist May 14, 2013 at 7:26 am #

    scott e: show me where I’ve said we should vet one candidate, but not another.

    Both candidates were 100% vetted by the voters, who are, ultimately, the ones who count. The fact that scott doesn’t like the result is tough luck for him.

  204. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 7:33 am #

    Northland10: She doesn’t stand on the shoulders of others because she knocked them all over when she made a beeline to the cameras.Starting with Berg, she has never done her own research but, instead, took from others and danced around the courtroom and Internet screaming, “Look at Me!!!!!”

    I like orly, I’ve spoken to her many times, lot’s of email. I like that she is free to pursue her interests. I maintain that if she is harmless, and there is no issue here, why would she elicits such response, vehemence and opposition. a good example is the o’donnell show, chris Matthews, and all of you.
    that some who call her crazy, should look at their own behavior. this is still America, it’s her right to do so. don’t ask me what orly thinks or specific legal ramifications, I don’t follow her closely, and the legal particulars are not my interest.

  205. avatar
    The Magic M May 14, 2013 at 7:47 am #

    scott e: if she is harmless, and there is no issue here, why would she elicits such response, vehemence and opposition

    Goes both ways. If you birthers think you are right and we are wrong, why are you wasting your time with us? With harmless people writing on a blog? You should spend your time at birther rallies and on the streets holding up signs. Or sell your house and send every frigging cent to Good Ole Orly.
    The fact that you don’t do any of that shows that you don’t seem to believe in your cause.

  206. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 7:48 am #

    Scientist: Let’s, for the sake of argument, take that to be true. Where in the US Constitution, or in international law or anywhere else is the justification for the US or Britain or anyone else to run around making this or that country “a better place”?And where does it stop?Surely, Iraq under Saddam was a paradise as compared with the Kim family prison of North Korea.Iraqis under Saddam generally ate well, could leave the country and were generally pretty aware of what was going on inthe outside world.North Koreans starve and have all access to the outside denied.Your justification is simply a formula for endless war as we “liberate” North Korea, Syria, Iran, Cuba, Zimbabwe, etc., and then why not invade China because, after all, they certainly have political prisoners?And let’s invade Russia to spring Pussy Riot from jail too, while we’re at it.Where does it end in scott world?

    By the way, I am not a total non-interventionist.I strongly support international intervention to stop on-going genocide and massacres.I agree with Bill Clinton that his decision not to intervene in Rwanda was his worst failure (and, Lupin, a bigger one for Mitterand, since France intervenes in far less serious cases in French-speaking Africa, and they actually armed the genocidaires).Intervention in Iraq in 1991 when Saddam was actually massacring Shiites might have been justified.I know Bush Jr though he was making up for BushSr’s inaction, but it doesn’t work that way.

    **************

    I agree with you scientist. we shouldn’t be the police for the world. what you describe is a good argument for why we as a nation waited so long to enter WW 2. where does it end, I don’t know. I suppose when monsters stop being born, or trained to do what they do. in the case of saddam, I always said “he himself is a weapon of mass destruction”, that’s why I stand by position today. it wasn’t/isn’t just us, there are lot’s of nations that show concern. the ongoing Syrian conflict is just one example. all of which is based in morality, we do the best we can.

    n. korea is in a class by itself, but that is changing, or evolving, too. should we stop iran from getting the bomb ? I think so given their past intentions and declarations. but we should never stop bombarding these countries with information campaigns. the main difference between iran and n korea is avaable technology and access for and to the people. the more ipads the better.

    I have contacts in iran, perhaps even friends I twitter with. their theocracy is being challenged by “the people”. if ahmadinejad hadn’t said the things he’s said, I think we would be worried less about iran, but isreal is in a different position than we are.

    isreal ?? I don’t know how I would feel if I were jewish, but hitler got people to destroy nearly a third of that population, so I do empathise with that aspect of their plight. I do know a lot of my jewish friends don’t have aunts and uncles.

  207. avatar
    donna May 14, 2013 at 7:58 am #

    scott e: the legal particulars are not my interest.

    without the legal particulars, there is no interest in her – why would there be? yes, she has a right to an opinion but when that opinion becomes part of the justice system, that’s where she’s evaluated by the courts, precedent, rules and the law – if she were my friend, i would respect her opinion though i disagree with it – but once she files a lawsuit, and i’m her adversary, that’s where were we part – if i missed a rule i would expect her to call me on it – but time and time again she ignores rules, precedent, the courts and the law – who is she but for her lawsuits? would we even know her name?

  208. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 7:58 am #

    Keith: Glad you think so.

    Remember this: Veterans’ bill voted down by GOP as Senate Democrats proclaim ‘new low’?

    Because you can be sure the Vets do.

    And notice what kind of jobs were targeted? Police and Fire. Civilian security! Law and Order! I thought the conservative mind was absolutely fixated on law and order!?

    sometimes bills are voted down because of unrelated attachments, I don’t know the specifics, but i’ll have a look. there are examples of this on both sides. “why didn’t so and so vote for this or that ?” that’s usually why.

  209. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 14, 2013 at 8:00 am #

    I do not think that Orly is harmless. Was she harmless in the case of Stefan Cook? Ask John Sampson. Someone who is an attorney, but pursues her own interests solely and that not of her clients is not harmless. The people she has sued with frivolous lawsuits suffered harm. The private people that she publicized and defamed on her web site don’t think she’s harmless.

    scott e: I like orly, I’ve spoken to her many times, lot’s of email. I like that she is free to pursue her interests. I maintain that if she is harmless, and there is no issue here, why would she elicits such response, vehemence and opposition. a good example is the o’donnell show, chris Matthews, and all of you.

  210. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 8:00 am #

    That’s because you’re a feeble-minded, gullible idiot.

    see, if I wrote this, i’m pretty sure doc wouldn’t post it.

  211. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 8:06 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I do not think that Orly is harmless. Was she harmless in the case of Stefan Cook? Ask John Sampson. Someone who is an attorney, but pursues her own interests solely and that not of her clients is not harmless. The people she has sued with frivolous lawsuits suffered harm. The private people that she publicized and defamed on her web site don’t think she’s harmless.

    for years you have challenged her efforts. I think it’s her right to do what she does, and just as much your right to do what you do. the process should be open and available to each of us equally, which for the most part it is. I still think we don’t know everything, nor is the controversy over…

  212. avatar
    Scientist May 14, 2013 at 8:07 am #

    scott e: I have contacts in iran, perhaps even friends I twitter with. their theocracy is being challenged by “the people”.

    Democracy has to come from the people, not from outside. That was the essential mistake with the Iraq adventure-there was no real popular uprising (except among the Kurds), only a fake group of corrupt exiles like Chalabi, milking the US and Britain for cash. Interestingly, Kurdistan is the one part of Iraq today that is working.

    Persians are quite sophisticated-along with China they are the oldest country living within their original borders-and I am confident that if outsiders stay out, they will achieve a better life. Intervention would only cause them to rally round their government against the foreigners.

    As for Iran and nukes, deterrence worked against 2 of the greatest mass murderers in history, Stalin and Mao. It would work against a nuclear Iran, as it has kept Kim from doing more than blustering. I don’t buy that dictators are crazy and can’t be deterred. Israel (not Isreal) has at least 100 warheads and could and would wipe Iran off the map if it came to that.

  213. avatar
    Scientist May 14, 2013 at 8:09 am #

    scott e: . I think it’s her right to do what she does, and just as much your right to do what you do. the process should be open and available to each of us equally, which for the most part it is.

    Doc is not occupying courts with crap cases that delay justice for people with real cases (justice delayed is justice denied). If Orly limited herself to blogging that would be a different story.

  214. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 14, 2013 at 8:18 am #

    Scientist: Doc is not occupying courts with crap cases that delay justice for people with real cases (justice delayed is justice denied).If Orly limited herself to blogging that would be a differentstory.

    To scotty there’s no such thing as wasting taxpayer resources well except if it’s the government.

  215. avatar
    Lupin May 14, 2013 at 8:23 am #

    Scientist: But Rwanda was a Belgian colony and had never, so far as I know, been British.It is French, not English-speaking.Worst of all, France had been arming the Hutu genocidaires.I was living in France at the time and remember this pretty well.When Mitterrand died a year or 2 later, one of my friends said, “Il restera a l’enfer”.And that is not to even get into his collaboration during Vichy.

    You won’t get any arguments from me there; I entirely agree with you. I never understood France’s policies in that dreadful civil war.

  216. avatar
    Lupin May 14, 2013 at 8:27 am #

    Scientist: But Rwanda was a Belgian colony and had never, so far as I know, been British. It is French, not English-speaking.

    I forgot to acknowlewdge you’re correct and I was incorrect; I got confused with Uganda; my point about former colonial powers still thinking of Africa in terms of “your turf vs my turf” was more general in spirit and I think remains largely true.

  217. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 14, 2013 at 8:29 am #

    scott e: I like orly, I’ve spoken to her many times, lot’s of email. I like that she is free to pursue her interests. I maintain that if she is harmless, and there is no issue here, why would she elicits such response, vehemence and opposition. a good example is the o’donnell show, chris Matthews, and all of you.that some who call her crazy, should look at their own behavior. this is still America, it’s her right to do so. don’t ask me what orly thinks or specific legal ramifications, I don’t follow her closely, and the legal particulars are not my interest.

    People usually have a general dislike for people who incessantly lie in public and waste the court’s time. She’s just as offensive as the welfare cheats you guys cry about. O’Donnell was justified in his behavior. Taitz agreed to come on the show to talk about the long form. Instead of talking about it she totally ignored it and went on a rant about another subject entirely. The moment she broke the agreement was the moment she deserved what she got. There is no issue, conspiracy theorists are ignorant idiots and hate to be corrected.

  218. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 14, 2013 at 8:32 am #

    scott e: sometimes bills are voted down because of unrelated attachments, I don’t know the specifics, but i’ll have a look. there are examples of this on both sides. “why didn’t so and so vote for this or that ?” that’s usually why.

    So are you saying they were for it before they were against it? How about the 9/11 health bill? They originally voted against that as well despite overwhelming support by the American public. Many people experienced health problems because of their work excavating the ground zero site. Many first responders also have health problems related to being there.

  219. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 8:33 am #

    No the didn’t FIND that yellowcake, you ignorant liar, and I’ve told you that before. Here’s the real story

    it’s not a lie, there does appear to be a controversy.

    http://www.factcheck.org/2008/08/uranium-in-iraq/

    https://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_rn=12&gs_ri=psy-ab&gs_mss=550%20metri&tok=XyUfY6_Bjzl9JQm8nAJTYQ&cp=27&gs_id=2y&xhr=t&q=550+metric+tons+of+yellowcake&es_nrs=true&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=550+metric+tons+of+yellowca&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46471029,d.dmg&fp=f88957481b8457e3&biw=1189&bih=568

    just to be clear, notwithstanding you epithets (which I think are unnecessary and don’t add to your arguments), you are saying no yellowcake was sold/transferred to montreal ??

    another consideration is venezuela

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwQxfUtTD9M

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/26/world/americas/26venez.html?_r=0

  220. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 8:38 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: So are you saying they were for it before they were against it?How about the 9/11 health bill?They originally voted against that as well despite overwhelming support by the American public.Many people experienced health problems because of their work excavating the ground zero site.Many first responders also have health problems related to being there.

    what numbers are the bills in question here, which congress, I need more info.

  221. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 8:42 am #

    Scientist: Doc is not occupying courts with crap cases that delay justice for people with real cases (justice delayed is justice denied).If Orly limited herself to blogging that would be a differentstory.

    to me that’s a subjective call. the same process should be available equally to everyone. it’s up to the courts so sort it all out. as new information becomes available, it should be processed accordingly. what’s fair access for one, should be for all.

  222. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 8:53 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: To scotty there’s no such thing as wasting taxpayer resources well except if it’s the government.

    again, those are your words, not mine. we have to have faith in the courts, and the outcome of jurisprudence.

    eventually/ultimately we have to believe in something, however, we should always question authority, and we are.

    I trust the supreme court, even when I think they are wrong, as in the decisions of obamcare and kelo v new London (eminent domain), plessy, dred scott …etc.

    they are the final deciders, when it comes to interpreting the constitution and defining the law.

    I trust the outcome of checks and balances, which is cool and pretty equalising, imho.

  223. avatar
    Scientist May 14, 2013 at 9:15 am #

    scott e: the same process should be available equally to everyone. it’s up to the courts so sort it all out.

    Everyone gets their day in court. Implicit in that is that you accept the court’s verdict (if the court’s are “corrupt” then stay out of them). Also implicit in that is that you are entitled to appeal, but when the highest court turns you down, end of story. Endlessly re-litigating the same matter and jurisdiction shopping for one judge that will see it your way is an abuse of the process and should be HEAVILY sanctioned, especially when done by an “attorney”.

    Doc and all those here who have condemned Taitz for abusing the legal process are 100% correct. She can blog to her heart’s content, but court is a totally different matter.

  224. avatar
    Scientist May 14, 2013 at 9:18 am #

    scott e: I trust the supreme court, even when I think they are wrong, as in the decisions of obamcare and kelo v new London (eminent domain), plessy, dred scott …etc.

    they are the final deciders, when it comes to interpreting the constitution and defining the law.

    So, when a birther case is appealed to them and they allow the lower court action to stand, that should END THE MATTER. Please communicate this to your girlfriend Orly.

  225. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 9:24 am #

    Scientist: So, when a birther case is appealed to them and they allow the lower court action to stand, that should END THE MATTER.Please communicate this to your girlfriend Orly.

    I think it did. miss orly’s not my girlfriend. I think she’s married. I don’t have a girlfriend right now, I wish I did, but I have been away from home for a long time taking care of family business.
    you should communicate your own sentiments, she has a website with a comment section, the last time I checked was still active.

    hey French toast from home made bread and Vermont maple surup, i’ll be back.

  226. avatar
    Keith May 14, 2013 at 9:44 am #

    Lupin: I couldn’t agree more! A shameful policy — not as an excuse but as a way of explaining, Africa is still divided in the minds of our politicos (in France and in the UK) into former colonial lines — the French will intervene in former French Africa, and the Brits in former British Africa, so in the minds of Mitterand’s team, Rwanda was Britain’s turf, or mess to clean up. Ivory Coast, Senegal, Mali, etc are “ours”. Again, not at all an excuse but a (partial) explanation.

    France “intervened” in New Zealand. When was that ever French turf?

    Bougainville missed New Zealand, found the Great Barrier Reef and dodged it to the north.

    Dufresne got himself killed in New Zealand, and didn’t do any territory claiming there (earlier he did claim “van Dieman’s land” (Tasmania) but it didn’t stick for some reason).

    St Allouarn, saw Australia, but he crossed the Indian Ocean not the Pacific.

    de Galaup, comte de Lapérouse (known as La Perouse in Australia) seems to have visited every island in the Pacific from Korea to Samoa except New Zealand before he disappeared. No land claims for him.

    d’Entrecasteaux, sent to find La Perouse, seems altogether incompetent or monumentally unlucky, one or the other. He saw what was probably La Perouse’s signal fires at Vanikoro but sailed on past, he got bored with the Great Australian Bight and missed discovering the Bass Straight, and he ‘spotted’ New Zealand, but apparently didn’t land.

  227. avatar
    Lupin May 14, 2013 at 9:55 am #

    Keith: France “intervened” in New Zealand. When was that ever French turf?

    You seemed to have missed that I was talking purely about Africa and the former colonial powers.

  228. avatar
    JD Reed May 14, 2013 at 9:57 am #

    Scott E: “i’ll be back.”
    Why?

  229. avatar
    Suranis May 14, 2013 at 9:57 am #

    scott e: it’s not a lie, there does appear to be a controversy.

    No there isn’t a controversy. Idiots insisting that the Yellowcake was part of a WMD program with no proof whatsoever is not a controversy. You were trying to insinuate that Iraq had nukes and therefore bush was right. You also flat out said they found them after the war. I showed how everyone knew they were there and how everyone knew they hadn’t been touched for 20 years BEFORE the troops went in. So Bush ordered the troops in knowing flat out that Iraq didn’t have a nuclear program.

    You said

    they found 550 tons of yellowcake

    This is a flat out lie and you know it.

    just to be clear, notwithstanding you epithets (which I think are unnecessary and don’t add to your arguments), you are saying no yellowcake was sold/transferred to montreal

    Yeah because only in your twisted mind would telling the full story of the Yellowcake in the remains of the nuclear reactor be denying its existence. And it was SOLD to Canada, which means that everyone acknowledged there was nothing illegal in Iraq owning the uranium in the first place

    In short calling you a liar is not an epithet, is a verifiable fact.

    And there was nothing in your reply about me talking about how the UN sanctions worked, Iran being far more powerful due to the war or that the Iraqis being far worse off now than before the war. Stunning.

  230. avatar
    Lupin May 14, 2013 at 9:58 am #

    scott e: Here’s the real story

    it’s not a lie, there does appear to be a controversy.

    http://www.factcheck.org/2008/08/uranium-in-iraq/

    Unless I’m mis-reading it, the factcheck article you link to pretty much destroys the notion that there was any uranium-related justification for the US invasion of Iraq. There does not appear to be any controversy on the topic — except for “gullible idiots”.

  231. avatar
    Suranis May 14, 2013 at 10:00 am #

    Right, sitting at websites all day and all night lying your ass off is taking care of family business.

    And this guy saying he has been talking to Orly and all these other people, and that he has “contacts” in Iran? Not only is he a liar, he is a complete Walter Mitty when it comes to puffing up his own importance.

    scott e: I think it did. miss orly’s not my girlfriend. I think she’s married. I don’t have a girlfriend right now, I wish I did, but I have been away from home for a long time taking care of family business.

  232. avatar
    Suranis May 14, 2013 at 10:11 am #

    Ironically the Kurds asked Saddam to intervene and end their civil war in 1996. Saddam was actually instrumental in creating a relatively peaceful Kurd sector, one of the strange ironies of history

    And George Bush senior encouraged the Iraqi tribes to revolt to create chaos during the First Gulf war, and then ended the war and sat back as Saddam brutally repressed that rebellion. That’s a big reason why the Sihks distrusted the Americans during Gulf War 2

    Scientist: Democracy has to come from the people, not from outside. That was the essential mistake with the Iraq adventure-there was no real popular uprising (except among the Kurds), only a fake group of corrupt exiles like Chalabi, milking the US and Britain for cash. Interestingly, Kurdistan is the one part of Iraq today that is working.

  233. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 10:19 am #

    Suranis:
    Ironically the Kurds asked Saddam to intervene and end their civil war in 1996. Saddam was actually instrumental in creating a relatively peaceful Kurd sector, one of the strange ironies of history

    And George Bush senior encouraged the Iraqi tribes to revolt to create chaos during the First Gulf war, and then ended the war and sat back as Saddam brutally repressed that rebellion. That’s a big reason why the Sihks distrusted the Americans during Gulf War 2

    I think using chemicals on kurds, specifically children, or anyone, transcends his political philosophy.

    https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=saddam+used+chemical+weapons+against+kurds&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46471029,d.dmg&biw=1189&bih=568&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=okeSUZ2SHIe-4AOzq4GACg

    I also think his intent was demonstrated when he invaded Kuwait. i’m glad he’s gone now.

    let me ask you, where do you think the chemweps in Syria came from. i’m not saying one way or the other.

  234. avatar
    Suranis May 14, 2013 at 10:40 am #

    scott e: I think using chemicals on kurds, specifically children, or anyone, transcends his political philosophy.

    And it’s funny that the kurds asked him to itervene in their civil war AFTER that happened, isn’t it? Why do you think that they did that if they hated him so much?

    And when Vice President George H W Bush was shown pictures of those chemical attacks, he said that they were fakes and our friend Saddam would never do that. That makes a controversy in your mind usually, doesn’t it?

    I also think his intent was demonstrated when he invaded Kuwait. i’m glad he’s gone now.

    You do know that Saddam asked the US’s permission before invading Kuwait, don’t you? The reply was pretty much ambiguous and probably lead the guy to think he had the US permission. You can read a good discussion here

    http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=53783

    let me ask you, where do you think the chemweps in Syria came from. i’m not saying one way or the other.

    One place they didn’t come from was Iraq. When Chemical weapons are sold they are deliberately given a limited shelf life so that the customer has to keep coming back. The chemical weapons sold to Iraq were completely useless within 5 years. That’s another thing Bush the Lesser knew when he invaded. And Iraq did not have a chemical weapons production program so he couldn’t have made his own.

    I know you idiots will be screaming for the next 50 years that when someone has so much as a can of fly spray that it must have come from Iraq, but but simply Iraq didn’t have any NBC’s for nearly a decade prior to Gulf War 2; Bushes revenge.

  235. avatar
    Atticus Finch May 14, 2013 at 10:40 am #

    scott e: again, those are your words, not mine. we have to have faith in the courts, and the outcome of jurisprudence.

    eventually/ultimately we have to believe in something, however, we should always question authority, and we are.

    I trust the supreme court, even when I think they are wrong, as in the decisions of obamcare and kelo v new London (eminent domain), plessy, dred scott …etc.

    they are the final deciders, when it comes to interpreting the constitution and defining the law.

    I trust the outcome of checks and balances, which is cool and pretty equalising, imho.

    “We’re not final because we are right. We are right because we are final.” Justice Robert H. Jackson

  236. avatar
    Lupin May 14, 2013 at 10:50 am #

    In a more enlightened time, U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson, America’s senior representative at the 1945 Nuremberg war crimes trials, and the tribunal’s chief prosecutor, said:

    “We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which their leaders are on trial is not that they lost the war, but that they started it. And we must not allow ourselves to be drawn into a trial of the causes of the war, for our position is that no grievances or policies will justify resort to aggressive war. It is utterly renounced and condemned as an instrument of policy.”

    By any civilized standards, Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld should be in jail right now.

  237. avatar
    gorefan May 14, 2013 at 10:57 am #

    scott e: where do you think the chemweps in Syria came from

    http://www.sipri.org/research/disarmament/eu-consortium/publications/Nonproliferation-paper-20

  238. avatar
    Suranis May 14, 2013 at 11:08 am #

    It’s sometimes good when someone drags these things out as a distraction to take a look back, and you can’t do much better than to look at Robin Cooks speech in the house of commons prior to the Gulf War II and how prophetic it was in hindsight.

    Robin Cook was a member of the labour government in Britain, and who resigned from the government rather than vote in favour of the war. He was one that had access to the full intelligence of Iraq’s capabilities. It was one of the best speeches I have ever heard, especially in contrast to Colin Powell’s speach before the UN. It was said of him that he was the only man to emerge with honour from the Iraq debacle.

    The text http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2859431.stm

    Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0f8NBlmwwE

  239. avatar
    sfjeff May 14, 2013 at 12:04 pm #

    scott e: jeff you just got busted at PF for calling out a guy for racism that is married to an Asian and has a black daughter.
    are you really here for consolation, and to lecture me on ethics ??
    you used to be a nice guy, you lay down with hyenas, now you just run with the pack.
    show me where I’ve said we should vet one candidate, but not another.

    Did I mention that Scott would dance away from actually answering the question?

    This is what Scott said at PF, when I pointed out once again that Birthers ask for the BC from one and only one President- the non-white one- here was his response:

    “I’ve said many times we should vet them equally, and will continue to do so. just because you draw loose conclusions to birther racism, doesn’t mean they’re true.”

    So my challenge to Scott:

    So show me your threads that you started regarding Romney’s birth certificate?

    That shouldn’t be hard, right after all “I’ve said many times we should vet them equally”

    Show us all of the threads where you demanded Romney show us his original birth certificate.

    Go for it.

    I post it here- because I fully expect Scott to dance away on PF

    Scott-

    Why won’t you answer the question?

    You claimed that you that you said that all candidates should be vetted equally- you have started dozens of anti-Obama threads on PF, you have posted here hundreds of times- where is the example of you demanding the vetting of Romney that you have demanded of Obama?

  240. avatar
    sfjeff May 14, 2013 at 12:11 pm #

    Suranis: It was one of the best speeches I have ever heard, especially in contrast to Colin Powell’s speach before the UN. It was said of him that he was the only man to emerge with honour from the Iraq debacle.The text http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2859431.stmVideo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0f8NBlmwwE

    Thanks for sharing that- quite something looking back now how accurate he was.

  241. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 12:35 pm #

    gorefan: http://www.sipri.org/research/disarmament/eu-consortium/publications/Nonproliferation-paper-20

    wow that’s a lot. again I am casting no aspersion here, just asking. cw’s have a short shelf life. I know Syria has had on again off again relations. they shared the baath party. there was a Syrian plan to assassinate saddam. and on and on.

    saddam could have made wmds disappear I think… I don’t think he all of the sudden became a good guy, i’m glad he’s dead. thanks for the link.

  242. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 12:44 pm #

    sfjeff: Did I mention that Scott would dance away from actually answering the question?

    This is what Scott said at PF, when I pointed out once again that Birthers ask for the BC from one and only one President- the non-white one- here was his response:

    “I’ve said many times we should vet them equally, and will continue to do so. just because you draw loose conclusions to birther racism, doesn’t mean they’re true.”

    So my challenge to Scott:

    So show me your threads that you started regarding Romney’s birth certificate?

    That shouldn’t be hard, right after all “I’ve said many times we should vet them equally”

    Show us all of the threads where you demanded Romney show us his original birth certificate.

    Go for it.

    I post it here- because I fully expect Scott to dance away on PF

    Scott-

    Why won’t you answer the question?

    You claimed that you that you said that all candidates should be vetted equally- you have started dozens of anti-Obama threads on PF, you have posted here hundreds of times- where is the example of you demanding the vetting of Romney that you have demanded of Obama?

    since you made the charge it’s up to you. my position has always been we should vet all candidates equally, I defy you to bring here to this forum any post of mine or anything I have ever said or written that says we should only vet 0bama and not the other candidates.

    in the meantime, no, I won’t go looking through thousands of posts looking for where I said what’s good for one is good for all. you have accused me of this before, so I know it’s written somewhere. but I never agreed with your charge, and I don’t this time.

    it’s your nebulous charge, you prove your claim. we would all like to see it. while you’re at it show me any racist posts I have made. I stand by my all.

    and I don’t work for the ayatollah either, sorry to burst your flimsy bubble. false allegations fall squarely with you, that has always been my stance.

  243. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 14, 2013 at 12:45 pm #

    scott e: what numbers are the bills in question here, which congress, I need more info.

    You don’t pay attention to current events much do you scotty?

    HR 847

    It was passed by the house and filibustered by the Republicans. It took Jon Stewart and a handful of people reporting on it to shame the Republicans into voting for the bill.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/10/nyregion/10health.html?_r=0

  244. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 14, 2013 at 12:46 pm #

    scott e: I maintain that if she is harmless, and there is no issue here, why would she elicits such response, vehemence and opposition. a good example is the o’donnell show, chris Matthews, and all of you.

    Let me get this straight: The fact that people have reacted negatively to Ms. Taitz failed efforts is cause for you to believe she’s on to something?

  245. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 14, 2013 at 12:51 pm #

    scott e: again, those are your words, not mine. we have to have faith in the courts, and the outcome of jurisprudence.

    No those aren’t my words scotty should I give a direct quote from you claims on RC Radio? When asked about Orly wasting taxpayer money on these court cases you deflected to Solyndra without ever answering the question.

  246. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 1:02 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: You don’t pay attention to current events much do you scotty?

    HR 847

    It was passed by the house and filibustered by the Republicans.It took Jon Stewart and a handful of people reporting on it to shame the Republicans into voting for the bill.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/10/nyregion/10health.html?_r=0

    i’m waiting for the press conference, that’s current.

    is this the res that tom harkin was concerned about how to pay for ? I don’t watch john stewart.

    i’m glad it passed, they should give those people whatever they need, same as veterans. can we all agree on that ?

  247. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 1:06 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: No those aren’t my words scotty should I give a direct quote from you claims on RC Radio?When asked about Orly wasting taxpayer money on these court cases you deflected to Solyndra without ever answering the question.

    well, I never agreed with your assumption she is wasting tax payer dollars, that’s subjective… it’s up to the courts, not us.

    but yes solyndra seemed to me to be a waste of tax payer dollars.

    sure, let’s hear the quote. we can address that here. if I said: “there’s no such thing as wasting taxpayer resources well except if it’s the government”. let’s hear it

  248. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 1:08 pm #

    scott e: since you made the charge it’s up to you.

    Except when it comes to Benghazi? Is that not right Scott.e?

  249. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 14, 2013 at 1:09 pm #

    scott e: for years you have challenged her efforts. I think it’s her right to do what she does, and just as much your right to do what you do. the process should be open and available to each of us equally, which for the most part it is. I still think we don’t know everything, nor is the controversy over…

    Strawman alert!

    No one is saying Ms. Taitz and birthers don’t have the “right” to act on their beliefs.

    There is no evidence the process is not “open and available”. In fact an argument can be made that Taitz’ abuse of the legal process is evidence that things need to be tightened up and abusers need to be held more accountable.

    So, in the end, after how many years, we are left with not one successful birther court case and several hundred failures but you still think “we don’t know everything” so there is still a “controversy”.

    Time to move on, scott.

  250. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 1:12 pm #

    Suranis: No there isn’t a controversy. Idiots insisting that the Yellowcake was part of a WMD program with no proof whatsoever is not a controversy. You were trying to insinuate that Iraq had nukes and therefore bush was right. You also flat out said they found them after the war. I showed how everyone knew they were there and how everyone knew they hadn’t been touched for 20 years BEFORE the troops went in. So Bush ordered the troops in knowing flat out that Iraq didn’t have a nuclear program.

    You said

    This is a flat out lie and you know it.

    Yeah because only in your twisted mind would telling the full story of the Yellowcake in the remains of the nuclear reactor be denying its existence. And it was SOLD to Canada, which means that everyone acknowledged there was nothing illegal in Iraq owning the uranium in the first place

    In short calling you a liar is not an epithet, is a verifiable fact.

    And there was nothing in your reply about me talking about how the UN sanctions worked, Iran being far more powerful due to the war or that the Iraqis being far worse off now than before the war. Stunning.

    so there was no yellowcake in Iraq ?

  251. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 1:13 pm #

    Scientist: Everyone gets their day in court.Implicit in that is that you accept the court’s verdict (if the court’s are “corrupt” then stay out of them).Also implicit in that is that you are entitled to appeal, but when the highest court turns you down, end of story.Endlessly re-litigating the same matter and jurisdiction shopping for one judge that will see it your way is an abuse of the process and should be HEAVILY sanctioned, especially when done by an “attorney”.

    Doc and all those here who have condemned Taitz for abusing the legal process are 100% correct.She can blog to her heart’s content, but court is a totally different matter.

    who are you to decide ?

  252. avatar
    Suranis May 14, 2013 at 1:13 pm #

    scott e: and I don’t work for the ayatollah either,

    Which Ayatollah? For a guy who claims he has contacts in Iran, you seem to know precious little about the place. Even in the time of Khomeini there were other Ayatollahs that were pretty pissed that Khomeini got all the attention.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayatollah

    Only a few of the most important ayatollah are accorded the rank of Grand Ayatollah (Ayatollah Uzma, “Great Sign of God”). This usually happens when the followers of one of the ayatollahs refer to him in many situations and ask him to publish his Juristic book in which he answers the vast majority of daily Muslim affairs. The book is called Resalah, which is usually a reinvention of the book Al-Urwatu l-Wuthqah, according to their knowledge of the most authentic Islamic sources and their application to current life.

    There are around 70 living worldwide,[citation needed] including Ali Khamenei, Ali Sistani, Mohammad Yaqoobi, Hossein Vahid Khorasani, Makarem Shirazi, Yousef Sane’i, Malakouti, Haeri, and Sadiq Shirazi. Currently there are six grand ayatollahs in Najaf, Iraq, center of the Iraqi Shi’i seminaries or Hawzas; the most senior is Ali al-Sistani. Other grand ayatollahs based in Najaf include Mohammad Yaqoobi, Basir Najafi, Mohammad Saeed Al-Hakim and Mohammad Ishaq Al-Fayyad.

  253. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 14, 2013 at 1:13 pm #

    scott e: to me that’s a subjective call. the same process should be available equally to everyone. it’s up to the courts so sort it all out. as new information becomes available, it should be processed accordingly. what’s fair access for one, should be for all.

    Strawman alert #2: No one is saying the process shouldn’t be open to everyone. Birthers have been to the bar a couple hundred times now and failed every time…..failed on the merits of their case and arguments.

  254. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 1:18 pm #

    donna:
    scott e: the legal particulars are not my interest.

    without the legal particulars, there is no interest in her – why would there be? yes, she has a right to an opinion but when that opinion becomes part of the justice system, that’s where she’s evaluated by the courts, precedent, rules and the law – if she were my friend, i would respect her opinion though i disagree with it – but once she files a lawsuit, and i’m her adversary, that’s where were we part – if i missed a rule i would expect her to call me on it – but time and time again she ignores rules, precedent, the courts and the law – who is she but for her lawsuits? would we even know her name?

    I don’t know.

  255. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 14, 2013 at 1:18 pm #

    scott e: again, those are your words, not mine. we have to have faith in the courts, and the outcome of jurisprudence.

    So…..after 200+ losses why are you still flogging the birther dead horse?

    How many times does “jurisprudence” have to speak before you hear it?

  256. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 1:19 pm #

    nbc: Except when it comes to Benghazi? Is that not right Scott.e?

    yes, it’s not right. we were talking about vetting presidential candidates. jeff implied that I only thought 0bama should be vetted, but that’s not true, I told him to prove his charge and now I am waiting.

  257. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 1:22 pm #

    scott e:
    nbc: Except when it comes to Benghazi? Is that not right Scott.e?

    yes, it’s not right. we were talking about vetting.

    Funny how you hold such contradictory opinions. It’s ok for Sean Smith’s mother to make claims and not support them but when it comes to Scott.e, such standards suddenly change?…

    Oh my…

  258. avatar
    Scientist May 14, 2013 at 1:22 pm #

    scott e: who are you to decide ?

    Who are YOU? The courts have decided 200 or so times.

    THE END

  259. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 1:25 pm #

    nbc: I told him to prove his charge and now I am waiting.

    Hahaha… You’re so funny my friend. Did you not say that you had always supported vetting everyone but when asked you failed to deliver on the substance?

  260. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 14, 2013 at 1:25 pm #

    scott e: yes, it’s not right. we were talking about vetting presidential candidates. jeff implied that I only thought 0bama should be vetted, but that’s not true, I told him to prove his charge and now I am waiting.

    So do you think Romney was vetted?

  261. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 14, 2013 at 1:28 pm #

    scott e: so there was no yellowcake in Iraq ?

    Th

    scott e: i’m waiting for the press conference, that’s current.

    is this the res that tom harkin was concerned about how to pay for ? I don’t watch john stewart.

    i’m glad it passed, they should give those people whatever they need, same as veterans. can we all agree on that ?

    Sounds like you’re making excuses again. The republicans voted against the bill and essentially had to be shamed into voting for it

  262. avatar
    Scientist May 14, 2013 at 1:28 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: So do you think Romney was vetted?

    Romney and Obama were both vetted by the only ones with the authority to do so-the voters. scott is just a sore loser because the voters found Obama more eligible than Romney

  263. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 14, 2013 at 1:29 pm #

    scott e: well, I never agreed with your assumption she is wasting tax payer dollars, that’s subjective… it’s up to the courts, not us.

    but yes solyndra seemed to me to be a waste of tax payer dollars.

    sure, let’s hear the quote. we can address that here. if I said: “there’s no such thing as wasting taxpayer resources well except if it’s the government”. let’s hear it

    Well that’s what your argument boils down to. Okay for Orly, not okay for the government

  264. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 14, 2013 at 1:29 pm #

    Scientist: Romney and Obama were both vetted by the only ones with the authority to do so-the voters.scott is just a sore loser because the voters found Obama more eligible than Romney

    Yeah but I’m asking Scotty for his opinion.

  265. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 1:30 pm #

    scott e: who are you to decide ?

    It’s not us who have decided. It’s the facts that show a continued failure, the lack of understanding of the rules of the court, the filing of meaningless ‘exhibits’, the continued use of motions to reconsider.

    It’s a decision based on logic, reason and fact. So I will give you some time to adjust yourself to these changed circumstances in how one presents a conclusion ;-)

  266. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 1:35 pm #

    scott e: so there was no yellowcake in Iraq ?

    Wow… You certainly cannot read very carefully now can you? Are you that closed to new information (assuming it is new to you) that all you have to say is ‘there was yellowcake’. Yes, that was well known and carefully monitored.
    None of this had ever been an issue. What was an issue were the false claims about Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction leading to the death of thousands americans and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi. But that’s ok to scott.e because he will never let facts change his mind on this issue, especially when those darn liberals have them so clearly on their side… And rather than to attempt logic and reason, he resorts to stubbornness.

    You’re such a riot my friend.

  267. avatar
    Monkey Boy May 14, 2013 at 1:44 pm #

    Pearls of Wisdom From Scott.


    and if it’s found someday that Syria’s wmd chemicals came from Iraq, so be it. in the aftermath of the second gulf war, they found 550 tons of yellowcake that was subsequently shipped to Canada. scott ritter got it wrong, that’s my position, that’s what I believe, no pseudointellectual bleeding heart liberal will ever take that away. there were no lies, I think Iraq is a better place.
    Flat out lying does not, in my opinion, indicate a kind, gentle temperment. Ignoring, or minimizing, the suffering of millions of Iraqis, and the demise of severalmany hundred thousand more is the epitome of meaness.
    __________________________________________________

    I do know a lot of my jewish friends don’t have aunts and uncles.

    Scott, there are several million Iraqis who don’t have aunts, uncles, fathers, unsullied sisters, limbs, children without birth defects or any prospect for a decent future anymore. Your “bleeding heart” seems to me to be out of place.
    _________________________________________

    I think using chemicals on kurds, specifically children, or anyone, transcends his political philosophy.

    Do you mean like Churchill in 1920?

    Another historian, Lawrence James, says, “By September the local commander, General Sir Aylmer Haldane, was beginning to get the upper hand, although he was still desperate enough to clamour for large supplies of poison gas. It was not needed, for air power had given his forces the edge whenever the going got tough”.[5] On whether gas was used he writes that: “RAF Officers asked Churchill… for use of poison gas. He agreed but it was not used”.[6]

  268. avatar
    Scientist May 14, 2013 at 1:45 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: Yeah but I’m asking Scotty for his opinion.

    I guess I don’t care about his opinion vs that of the other 130 million or so. The time for him to have mdke his case has passed. If scott is smart (we all know he isn’t) he will focus on 2016, since 2012 is done, last I looked.

  269. avatar
    Rickey May 14, 2013 at 1:47 pm #

    scott e: so there was no yellowcake in Iraq ?

    There was 550 metric tons of degraded yellowcake in Iraq which had been there prior to the 1991 Gulf War and which “cannot be used in its current form for a nuclear weapon or even a so-called dirty bomb..The uranium was the remnants of decades-old nuclear reactor projects that had been put out of commission many years earlier.”

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/yellowcake.asp

    http://www.factcheck.org/2008/08/uranium-in-iraq/

  270. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 1:47 pm #

    CarlOrcas: So…..after 200+ losses why are you still flogging the birther dead horse?

    How many times does “jurisprudence” have to speak before you hear it?

    i’m not.

  271. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 1:49 pm #

    nbc: Funny how you hold such contradictory opinions. It’s ok for Sean Smith’s mother to make claims and not support them but when it comes to Scott.e, such standards suddenly change?…

    Oh my…

    I don’t agree with your interpretation counselor.

    her son assumed the risk, I think he is a hero, and he was abandoned by his country, multiple times. ostensibly, so has his mother. that’s my opinion. I think our executive branch is corrupt. we’ll all find out together, whom is right.

  272. avatar
    Monkey Boy May 14, 2013 at 1:53 pm #

    Scott won’t answer, but it may be useful to ask him where Saddam got the chemical weapons to use on Iranis, and later, the kurds?

    Who supplied the muscle to install Saddam as dictator in the first place?

    Who encouraged and helped him to build up his military to make an unprovoked attack on Iran?

  273. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 1:55 pm #

    scott e: sure, let’s hear the quote. we can address that here. if I said: “there’s no such thing as wasting taxpayer resources well except if it’s the government”. let’s hear it

    Wow… Is scott.e actually showing some willingness to listen to reason and logic?

    As to Solyndra, is the argument that any investment in green energy is wasteful? Or is it wasteful because Solyndra filed for bankruptcy, which is always a risk? If we want to talk about wastefulness in government, we need not look further than the military…

  274. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 1:58 pm #

    scott e: I don’t agree with your interpretation counselor.

    her son assumed the risk, I think he is a hero, and he was abandoned by his country, multiple times.

    Ah, scott.e ‘thinks’ that he was abandoned by his country and therefor it is ok…

    Such a double standard my friend… And because of what you think, his mother is free to make any claims about our President?

    Is that the full extent of your ‘argument’?

    So if I think that you have failed to provide any evidence that supports your claim, it’s all ok ?

    Or do we still follow different standards when it comes to scott.e?…

  275. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 1:59 pm #

    look i’m not pretending to be an expert on this, but this is what I find, is/was cbs wrong ?

    http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-202_162-4235028.html

  276. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 2:04 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: Well that’s what your argument boils down to. Okay for Orly, not okay for the government

    Hahaha… Scott.e has never shown a real effort when it comes to reason and logic. He is mostly guided by his dislike of what he calls pseudo-intellectualism (meaning: arguments based on logic, reason and fact) when he has made up his mind. He continuously fails to understand how his own position is used against him and why he subsequently fails and has to change to topic in mid-conversation.

    Look at the yellowcake intellectual disaster for example, where scott.e truly shows some of his true colors.

    Such a fascinating ‘discussion’.. Or look at the timeline of Benghazi and the reports… Again, poor scott.e is following somewhat mindlessly the ‘talking points’ and fails to properly educate himself on the topic. All because he does not trust the pseudo-intellectualism of those with whom he disagrees which forces him to ignore facts, logic and reason in favor of a bias.

    It’s not just that this could be inferred from his behavior and ‘arguments’ but he himself has proudly announced this.

  277. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 2:04 pm #

    nbc: Ah, scott.e ‘thinks’ that he was abandoned by his country and therefor it is ok…

    Such a double standard my friend… And because of what you think, his mother is free to make any claims about our President?

    Is that the full extent of your ‘argument’?

    So if I think that you have failed to provide any evidence that supports your claim, it’s all ok ?

    Or do we still follow different standards when it comes to scott.e?…

    I think she is “free” to criticize anyone she wants, as was miss Sheehan.

    as I said, she hasn’t heard from the people who promised to follow up and keep her informed. I don’t know if she is lying about that, how could I. but we all heard mr. carney say, Benghazi was a long time ago. I heard steph cutter say, we didn’t learn until weeks later that it was a premeditated attack, and of course blaming the video.

  278. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 2:08 pm #

    scott e: look i’m not pretending to be an expert on this, but this is what I find, is/was cbs wrong ?

    ROTFL. No CBS was not wrong. You were wrong. If only you had done the proper research but that was not necessary now was it? Data supported your position that there must have been WMD and therefor the fact that the US removed known and tracked quantities of yellowcake somehow should be interpreted as supporting such a position. No efforts to familiarize oneself with the history and background, no attempt to propose a reasoned argument. Only an attempt to blame CBS for his own follies.

  279. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 2:09 pm #

    scott e: I think she is “free” to criticize anyone she wants, as was miss Sheehan.

    Sure anyone is free to criticize anyone but that does not make such criticism valid, or not a waste of tax-payers’ moneys.

    Nice retreat to a strawman…

    But under your logic it was ok that someone criticized you.

    Nice to hear…

  280. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 2:09 pm #

    nbc: Wow… Is scott.e actually showing some willingness to listen to reason and logic?

    As to Solyndra, is the argument that any investment in green energy is wasteful? Or is it wasteful because Solyndra filed for bankruptcy, which is always a risk? If we want to talk about wastefulness in government, we need not look further than the military…

    the government is picking losers with political ties. I think green is a good idea.

  281. avatar
    Monkey Boy May 14, 2013 at 2:10 pm #

    scott e: I think she is “free” to criticize anyone she wants, as was [M]iss Sheehan.

    as I said, she hasn’t heard from the people who promised to follow up and keep her informed. I don’t know if she is lying about that, how could I. but we all heard mr. carney say, Benghazi was a long time ago.

    Aaah, but [M]iss Sheehan is free to complain so long as there are no consequences; but, [M]rs. Smith should bring down a government because of her grief. I live and learn.

  282. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 2:11 pm #

    nbc: ROTFL. No CBS was not wrong. You were wrong. If only you had done the proper research but that was not necessary now was it? Data supported your position that there must have been WMD and therefor the fact that the US removed known and tracked quantities of yellowcake somehow should be interpreted as supporting such a position. No efforts to familiarize oneself with the history and background, no attempt to propose a reasoned argument. Only an attempt to blame CBS for his own follies.

    so there was yellow cake in Iraq, and it was moved to canada ?

  283. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 2:11 pm #

    scott e: but we all heard mr. carney say, Benghazi was a long time ago. I heard steph cutter say, we didn’t learn until weeks later that it was a premeditated attack, and of course blaming the video.

    Still quoting out of context? Wow Scott.e your biases surely make you blind to the full story.

    Fascinating… Despite being pointed to the full context, you continue to ignore it…

  284. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 2:13 pm #

    Monkey Boy: Aaah, but [M]iss Sheehan is free to complain so long as there are no consequences; but, [M]rs. Smith should bring down a government because of her grief.I live and learn.

    i’m pretty sure she’s not trying to bring down the government. she just misses her son, and she wants to know what happened.

  285. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 2:14 pm #

    nbc: Still quoting out of context? Wow Scott.e your biases surely make you blind to the full story.

    Fascinating… Despite being pointed to the full context, you continue to ignore it…

    he didn’t say that ? i’m pretty sure he did.

  286. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 2:16 pm #

    scott e: so there was yellow cake in Iraq, and it was moved to canada ?

    Totally missing the point. Yes, the low grade yellowcake was there and was being tracked and found to not to have been tampered with. So again, no WMD…

    Poor scott.e… Such tunnel vision

    Remember what scott.e tried to argue?

    t. in the aftermath of the second gulf war, they found 550 tons of yellowcake that was subsequently shipped to Canada. scott ritter got it wrong, that’s my position,

    Scott Ritter got it wrong… Nope, scott.e got it wrong.

    So will you change your position? Or will you not let facts disturb your bliss?

  287. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 2:17 pm #

    scott e: he didn’t say that ? i’m pretty sure he did.

    What part of ‘context’ do you not comprehend?

  288. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 2:18 pm #

    Monkey Boy: Aaah, but [M]iss Sheehan is free to complain so long as there are no consequences; but, [M]rs. Smith should bring down a government because of her grief. I live and learn.

    ROTFL… Yes, the logic is striking…

  289. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 2:20 pm #

    nbc: Hahaha… Scott.e has never shown a real effort when it comes to reason and logic. He is mostly guided by his dislike of what he calls pseudo-intellectualism (meaning: arguments based on logic, reason and fact) when he has made up his mind. He continuously fails to understand how his own position is used against him and why he subsequently fails and has to change to topic in mid-conversation.

    Look at the yellowcake intellectual disaster for example, where scott.e truly shows some of his true colors.

    Such a fascinating ‘discussion’.. Or look at the timeline of Benghazi and the reports… Again, poor scott.e is following somewhat mindlessly the ‘talking points’ and fails to properly educate himself on the topic. All because he does not trust the pseudo-intellectualism of those with whom he disagrees which forces him to ignore facts, logic and reason in favor of a bias.

    It’s not just that this could be inferred from his behavior and ‘arguments’ but he himself has proudly announced this.

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: Well that’s what your argument boils down to.Okay for Orly, not okay for the government

    you were going to fetch that quote you attributed to me.

  290. avatar
    Monkey Boy May 14, 2013 at 2:23 pm #

    Hey, Scott, are you “glad” that Churchill “is gone?”

    [BACKGROUND: In 1917, following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire, the British occupied Iraq and established a colonial government. The Arab and Kurdish people of Iraq resisted the British occupation, and by 1920 this had developed into a full scale national revolt, which cost the British dearly. As the Iraqi resistance gained strength, the British resorted to increasingly repressive measures, including the use of posion gas.] NB: Because of formatting problems, quotation marks will appear as stars *

    All quotes in the excerpt are properly footnoted in the original book, with full references to British archives and papers. Excerpt from pages 179-181 of Simons, Geoff. *IRAQ: FROM SUMER TO SUDAN*. London: St. Martins Press, 1994:

    Winston Churchill, as colonial secretary, was sensitive to the cost of policing the Empire; and was in consequence keen to exploit the potential of modern technology. This strategy had particular relevance to operations in Iraq. On 19 February, 1920, before the start of the Arab uprising, Churchill (then Secretary for War and Air) wrote to Sir Hugh Trenchard, the pioneer of air warfare. Would it be possible for Trenchard to take control of Iraq? This would entail *the provision of some kind of asphyxiating bombs calculated to cause disablement of some kind but not death…for use in preliminary operations against turbulent tribes.*

    Churchill was in no doubt that gas could be profitably employed against the Kurds and Iraqis (as well as against other peoples in the Empire): *I do not understand this sqeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poison gas against uncivilised tribes.* Henry Wilson shared Churchills enthusiasm for gas as an instrument of colonial control but the British cabinet was reluctant to sanction the use of a weapon that had caused such misery and revulsion in the First World War. Churchill himself was keen to argue that gas, fired from ground-based guns or dropped from aircraft, would cause *only discomfort or illness, but not death* to dissident tribespeople; but his optimistic view of the effects of gas were mistaken. It was likely that the suggested gas would permanently damage eyesight and *kill children and sickly persons, more especially as the people against whom we intend to use it have no medical knowledge with which to supply antidotes.*

    Churchill remained unimpressed by such considerations, arguing that the use of gas, a *scientific expedient,* should not be prevented *by the prejudices of those who do not think clearly*. In the event, gas was used against the Iraqi rebels with excellent moral effect* though gas shells were not dropped from aircraft because of practical difficulties […..]

    Today in 1993 there are still Iraqis and Kurds who remember being bombed and machine-gunned by the RAF in the 1920s. A Kurd from the Korak mountains commented, seventy years after the event: *They were bombing here in the Kaniya Khoran…Sometimes they raided three times a day.* Wing Commander Lewis, then of 30 Squadron (RAF), Iraq, recalls how quite often *one would get a signal that a certain Kurdish village would have to be bombed…*, the RAF pilots being ordered to bomb any Kurd who looked hostile. In the same vein, Squadron-Leader Kendal of 30 Squadron recalls that if the tribespeople were doing something they ought not be doing then you shot them.*

    Similarly, Wing-Commander Gale, also of 30 Squadron: *If the Kurds hadn’t learned by our example to behave themselves in a civilised way then we had to spank their bottoms. This was done by bombs and guns.

    Wing-Commander Sir Arthur Harris (later Bomber Harris, head of wartime Bomber Command) was happy to emphasise that *The Arab and Kurd now know what real bombing means in casualties and damage. Within forty-five minutes a full-size village can be practically wiped out and a third of its inhabitants killed or injured.* It was an easy matter to bomb and machine-gun the tribespeople, because they had no means of defence or retalitation. Iraq and Kurdistan were also useful laboratories for new weapons; devices specifically developed by the Air Ministry for use against tribal villages. The ministry drew up a list of possible weapons, some of them the forerunners of napalm and air-to-ground missiles:

    Phosphorus bombs, war rockets, metal crowsfeet [to maim livestock] man-killing shrapnel, liquid fire, delay-action bombs. Many of these weapons were first used in Kurdistan.

    Excerpt from pages 179-181 of Simons, Geoff. *Iraq: From Sumer to Saddam*.

    London: St. Martins Press, 1994.

  291. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 2:24 pm #

    scott e: i’m pretty sure she’s not trying to bring down the government. she just misses her son, and she wants to know what happened.

    Ah… is that all… Love the back-tracking my friend. So when she says that he was murdered by the administration, it was just a grieving mother speaking and no evidence is or was needed to support her?

    You are all over the place here scott.e… Time to formulate a more reasoned argument, don’t you think?

    Remember scott.e’s ‘argument’ when it was pointed out that she had accused Obama of having murdered her son?

    I don’t think it’s her responsibility to provide evidence. everyone that day who used that service of receiving their dead sons, as a vehicle to advance their political narrative, promised they would get back to her.

    And when the intervening hearings made it impossible to explain to her without being accused of trying to derail the investigations, she suddenly should be allowed to make any foolish claim just because she is grieving?

    So who is really abusing the death of her son for political gain here scott.e?

  292. avatar
    Monkey Boy May 14, 2013 at 2:25 pm #

    Forgot the link for post at 2:23 PM
    http://www.iraqwar.org/chemical.htm

  293. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 2:26 pm #

    nbc: What part of ‘context’ do you not comprehend?

    the part where I ask, did he not utter those words “Benghazi happened a long time ago”.

    cause i’m pretty sure he did, that doesn’t inspire confidence for someone who was promised a follow up, and is still waiting. that’s all i’m saying. I wouldn’t try to read to much into that.

  294. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 2:28 pm #

    Oh and now she admits that she was contacted

    TAPPER: And then you haven’t heard from them. Have you heard from anybody in the Obama administration? Have you gotten any outreach or any answers at all?

    SMITH: I got one telephone call from a clerk that was a couple days after it happened. He was reading to me from the time line, which I already had. And that was it. And since then, all they have told me is that I am not part of the immediate family so they don’t want to tell me anything.

    I am not sure what she means by ‘not part of the immediate family’… But she is just hurting and yet, some take the words of a grieving mother as factual…

  295. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 2:29 pm #

    And is Mrs Smith blaming Congress for reducing the funding of security of embassies?

    Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-Utah) acknowledged on Wednesday that House Republicans had consciously voted to reduce the funds allocated to the State Department for embassy security since winning the majority in 2010.

    On Wednesday morning, CNN anchor Soledad O’Brien asked the Utah Republican if he had “voted to cut the funding for embassy security.”

    “Absolutely,” Chaffetz said. “Look we have to make priorities and choices in this country. We have…15,000 contractors in Iraq. We have more than 6,000 contractors, a private army there, for President Obama, in Baghdad. And we’re talking about can we get two dozen or so people into Libya to help protect our forces. When you’re in tough economic times, you have to make difficult choices. You have to prioritize things.”

    Fascinating… So in the end, this may all come back to the GOP?

    For the past two years, House Republicans have continued to deprioritize the security forces protecting State Department personnel around the world. In fiscal year 2011, lawmakers shaved $128 million off of the administration’s request for embassy security funding. House Republicans drained off even more funds in fiscal year 2012 — cutting back on the department’s request by $331 million.

    All because of budget cuts… And yet they blame Hillary who had pointed out the risks they had help increase?

  296. avatar
    sfjeff May 14, 2013 at 2:30 pm #

    scott e: since you made the charge it’s up to you. my position has always been we should vet all candidates equally, I defy you to bring here to this forum any post of mine or anything I have ever said or written that says we should only vet 0bama and not the other candidates. .

    Scott- you started dozens of threads questioning Obama’s eligibility- and repeatedly demanded that we- literally every American- was entitled to see the original that is on file in Hawaii.

    I do not recall you ever asking Romney to provide any proof of eligiblity. I don’t recall you starting even one thread demanding anything from Romney.

    If you say that ‘we should vet all candidates equally’- then why did you not demand that Romney be vetted like you demanded Obama be vetted?

    This is the bottom line Scott.

    You don’t demand that every candidate be vetted equally. You have only demanded this of Obama- over and over and over.

    You say you aren’t a racist- fine- I am more than willing to accept that you aren’t.

    But you can’t escape the smoke from the racist fire- the only candidate that you have ever demanded be vetted is the black one that was elected.

    You had your chance in 2012 to prove to all of us that this was not racially motivated by demanding in the same manner the same things from the white guy.

    But you didn’t.

  297. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 2:33 pm #

    More

    House Republicans cut the administration’s request for embassy security funding by $128 million in fiscal 2011 and $331 million in fiscal 2012….Last year, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton warned that Republicans’ proposed cuts to her department would be “detrimental to America’s national security” — a charge Republicans rejected.

    Ryan, Issa and other House Republicans voted for an amendment in 2009 to cut $1.2 billion from State operations, including funds for 300 more diplomatic security positions. Under Ryan’s budget, non-defense discretionary spending, which includes State Department funding, would be slashed nearly 20 percent in 2014, which would translate to more than $400 million in additional cuts to embassy security.

    Oh the hypocrisy…

    So scott.e, what do you think about the culpability of Congress?

  298. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 2:35 pm #

    scott e: the part where I ask, did he not utter those words “Benghazi happened a long time ago”.

    Do you still not comprehend the meaning of context… Oh I forgot…

    And of course, under scott.e’s ‘arguments’, anyone is free to say whatever they want… So why focus on the context…

  299. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 2:36 pm #

    Monkey Boy:
    Hey, Scott, are you “glad” that Churchill “is gone?”

    no one has ever asked me that before, he’d be like 139, so I guess so. my grandmother lived almost 110 years. she had a pretty good run. she was pretty sharp up till about 107 or so.

  300. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 2:37 pm #

    scott e: you were going to fetch that quote you attributed to me.

    Oh scott.e… please stick to the points raised…

  301. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 14, 2013 at 2:38 pm #

    scott e: i’m not. (Flogging the birther dead horse.)

    You are aware that your previous posts are still visible for everyone to see….aren’t you?

    Just a little while ago you said “I still think we don’t know everything, nor is the controversy over……”

    So which is it, scott?

  302. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 2:38 pm #

    scott e: no one has ever asked me that before, he’d be like 139, so I guess so. my grandmother lived almost 110 years. she had a pretty good run. she was pretty sharp up till about 107 or so.

    Such a non-response… Well done scott.e it would have shocked me to have you respond in a more engaging fashion…

  303. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 2:40 pm #

    CarlOrcas:

    I am aware. you asked “So…..after 200+ losses why are you still flogging the birther dead horse?

    and I said i’m not

  304. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 2:41 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Just a little while ago you said “I still think we don’t know everything, nor is the controversy over……”

    So which is it, scott?

    Well is he not free to say whatever he wants to and is he not free to ignore the pseudo-intellectualism of those darn liberals…

    I find it funny how unable scott.e to formulate a coherent and consistent argument… And yet, I am sure he sees himself as a great orator…

    The Dunning–Kruger effect is going strong today…

  305. avatar
    Suranis May 14, 2013 at 2:41 pm #

    Have you not uttered the words “I… am… full… of… shit”

    Oh hang on, now you want to include the rest of the sentences with those sentence fragments and include the context? I wonder why.

    scott e: the part where I ask, did he not utter those words “Benghazi happened a long time ago”.

    cause i’m pretty sure he did, that doesn’t inspire confidence for someone who was promised a follow up, and is still waiting. that’s all i’m saying. I wouldn’t try to read to much into that.

  306. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 2:42 pm #

    scott e: and I said i’m not

    Well, you are even though you say you are not. You really should remember what you said in the past…

    See why people have come to distrust your ‘claims’…

    And when they ask for evidence or point out that you said something different in the past, what does scott.e do?

    TIme will tell but I am not holding my breath.

  307. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 2:47 pm #

    As to Benghazi, since we are talking about the ‘feelings’

    PPP’s newest national poll finds that Republicans aren’t getting much traction with their focus on Benghazi over the last week. Voters trust Hillary Clinton over Congressional Republicans on the issue of Benghazi by a 49/39 margin and Clinton’s +8 net favorability rating at 52/44 is identical to what it was on our last national poll in late March. Meanwhile Congressional Republicans remain very unpopular with a 36/57 favorability rating.

    Voters think Congress should be more focused on other major issues right now rather than Benghazi. By a 56/38 margin they say passing a comprehensive immigration reform bill is more important than continuing to focus on Benghazi, and by a 52/43 spread they think passing a bill requiring background checks for all gun sales should be a higher priority.

  308. avatar
    Suranis May 14, 2013 at 2:50 pm #

    Have you not uttered the words “I… am… full… of… crap”?

    Oh hang on, now you want to include the rest of the sentences with those sentence fragments and include the context??? Talk about inconsistent.

    scott e: the part where I ask, did he not utter those words “Benghazi happened a long time ago”.

  309. avatar
    The Magic M May 14, 2013 at 2:51 pm #

    nbc: Causing much concern in Issa

    You do know that that specific paragraph is from a comedy website? ;)

  310. avatar
    Monkey Boy May 14, 2013 at 2:51 pm #

    sfjeff: Scott- you started dozens of threads questioning Obama’s eligibility- and repeatedly demanded that we- literally every American- was entitled to see the original that is on file in Hawaii.

    I do not recall you ever asking Romney to provide any proof of eligiblity. I don’t recall you starting even one thread demanding anything from Romney.

    If you say that ‘we should vet all candidates equally’- then why did you not demand that Romney be vetted like you demanded Obama be vetted?

    Yes, the “moral double bookkeeping(as President Johnson termed it)” of Scott is truly amazing.

    -He laments the victims of the Third Reich, but chest thumps and cheers creating Arab victims of Cheney/Bush.

    -He savages Saddam for using chemical weapons to put down a revolt, but is silent on Churchill’s advocacy of the same.

    -He demands all kinds of unreasonable documentation(that he is not entitled to) from the black President, but makes no demands on the white candidate.

    -He exploits a grieving mother to lay murder at the feet of the current President, but blows off the grief of mother who had a genuine grievance against the previous regime.

    -He insists that Cindy Sheehan’s son asked for it by volunteering for the Armed services, so his family has no grievance; yet, Mrs Smith, who’s son who volunteered for an extremely hazardous unit should bring down a government because of his demise.

    Amazing, indeed!

  311. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 2:51 pm #

    nbc: Such a non-response… Well done scott.e it would have shocked me to have you respond in a more engaging fashion…

    i’m trying to keep up, there are more of you.

    when someone starts a post with are you glad Churchill is gone,

    well… I don’t know. I have seven volumes of Winston S. Churchill here with me now. my dad liked him a lot, . the books appear to be by Randolf s. Churchill. perhaps I will read them.

    my dad also admired Jenny Churchill (lady Randolph), whom apparently invented the manhattan cocktail. I think history favors him. I think FDR liked him

    am I glad he’s gone ? I don’t know…

  312. avatar
    Sef May 14, 2013 at 2:53 pm #

    nbc: Re: Issa: “We demand an answer to one simple question,” he said. “What does Secretary Clinton know that none of us knows?”

    “It’s not nice to fool Mother Nature.”

  313. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 2:54 pm #

    nbc: Oh scott.e… please stick to the points raised…

    lol…

  314. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 2:57 pm #

    sfjeff: Scott- you started dozens of threads questioning Obama’s eligibility- and repeatedly demanded that we- literally every American- was entitled to see the original that is on file in Hawaii.

    I do not recall you ever asking Romney to provide any proof of eligiblity. I don’t recall you starting even one thread demanding anything from Romney.

    If you say that ‘we should vet all candidates equally’- then why did you not demand that Romney be vetted like you demanded Obama be vetted?

    This is the bottom line Scott.

    You don’t demand that every candidate be vetted equally. You have only demanded this of Obama- over and over and over.

    You say you aren’t a racist- fine- I am more than willing to accept that you aren’t.

    But you can’t escape the smoke from the racist fire- the only candidate that you have ever demanded be vetted is the black one that was elected.

    You had your chance in 2012 to prove to all of us that this was not racially motivated by demanding in the same manner the same things from the white guy.

    But you didn’t.

    so were you able to find such a post, where I say vet 0bama but not the others ??

  315. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 2:59 pm #

    Sef: “It’s not nice to fool Mother Nature.”

    lol… that’s pretty good.

  316. avatar
    Monkey Boy May 14, 2013 at 3:04 pm #

    scott e: i’m trying to keep up, there are more of you.

    when someone starts a post with are you glad Churchill is gone,

    well… I don’t know. I have seven volumes of Winston S. Churchill here with me now. my dad liked him a lot, . the books appear to be by Randolf s. Churchill. perhaps I will read them.

    my dad also admired Jenny Churchill (lady Randolph), whom apparently invented the manhattan cocktail. I think history favors him. I think FDR liked him

    am I glad he’s gone ? I don’t know…

    Of course, you know that I meant “Are you glad he is gone because he used chemical weapons against the kurds,” but, as always, you come up with a non sequitur when the going gets rough.

  317. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 14, 2013 at 3:05 pm #

    scott e: I am aware. you asked “So…..after 200+ losses why are you still flogging the birther dead horse?

    and I said i’m not

    So exactly what did you mean when you said “I still think we don’t know everything, nor is the controversy over……”?

  318. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 3:10 pm #

    I don’t believe 0bama murdered her son.
    I do think they used the video to protect the campaign, as evidenced by axelrod gibbs cutter Debbie wasserman, et al.

    do they still say it was the video ? I just don’t know, there are so many things going on now in the executive branch

    I also believe bush didn’t kill cindy Sheehan’s son, as she claimed. I’ve never been a mother, nor have I lost a child. so I don’t know how they feel. I did see my mother when she did, but I haven’t felt that myself.

  319. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 3:19 pm #

    CarlOrcas: So exactly what did you mean when you said “I still think we don’t know everything, nor is the controversy over……”?

    I think there is still more to the story, and I think there is still a controversy, as evidenced here and other places.

  320. avatar
    Sef May 14, 2013 at 3:25 pm #

    scott e: I think there is still more to the story, and I think there is still a controversy, as evidenced here and other places.

    And as long as you and others cannot accept simple facts and do not turn off your conspiracy autogenerator there will continue to be a “controversy”. But only among a “select few”.

  321. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 14, 2013 at 3:25 pm #

    scott e: I think there is still more to the story, and I think there is still a controversy, as evidenced here and other places.

    But you’re not flogging the birther dead horse? Are you serious?

    Just for the record let us note that your obstinate ignorance is not evidence there is “more to the story” and the “controversy” is wholly a product of your imagination.

  322. avatar
    Sef May 14, 2013 at 3:28 pm #

    Sef: But only among a “select few”.

    Some day “among” can be replaced with “between”.

  323. avatar
    Graham Shevlin May 14, 2013 at 3:29 pm #

    Scott, just because you and a few wackadoodles think there is a controversy does not mean that there is one. I can think that the moon is made of green cheese, but that does not suddenly convert it to the biggest orbiting lump of cheese in the Universe.
    You need facts and conmpelling evidence to justify a claim of a controversy. The response “It’s a controversy because I say it is” is nothing more than an assertion from the depths of your conspiracy-addled conceit.

  324. avatar
    Scientist May 14, 2013 at 3:31 pm #

    scott e: I think there is still more to the story, and I think there is still a controversy, as evidenced here and other places.

    Let’s be honest-YOU DON’T REALLY CARE ABOUT BENGHAZI EXCEPT AS A WAY TO BEAT UP ON OBAMA.

    By the way, I don’t care about it either. Nor do I care about Cindy Sheehan. We humans are really only able to care about those we know-our friends and families. The rest is just people trying to make political hay. There, now the truth is out.

  325. avatar
    Suranis May 14, 2013 at 3:32 pm #

    scott e: so were you able to find such a post, where I say vet 0bama but not the others ??

    No-one has been able to find a post by you saying “Vet Romney or McCain” even a little bit.

    Instead we have had posts by you saying “Romney is a man of integrity etc” as though its an established fact.

    And we certainly haven’t found a post by you saying “this accusation with no evidence against Obama is totally ridiculous” Plenty by you recycling false and disproven conspiracies because “He’s from Chicago so you know it has to be true”

    I don’t believe 0bama murdered her son.
    I do think they used the video to protect the campaign, as evidenced by axelrod gibbs cutter Debbie wasserman

    the Pope Bowie Gaddafi Chavez my mother the guy down the street the guy who called me a freaking idiot everyone on the boston football team Elvis hillary alinsky cartman homer bart marge lisa lots more random names for no reason

    do they still say it was the video ? I just don’t know, there are so many things going on now in the executive branch

    Yeah after months of hearing they have found precisely nothing criminal about Benghazi, so its no wonder you are deliberately knowing nothing about it. Remember whistle-blower Wednesday?

    I also believe bush didn’t kill cindy Sheehan’s son, as she claimed. I’ve never been a mother, nor have I lost a child. so I don’t know how they feel. I did see my mother when she did, but I haven’t felt that myself.

    And yet you will pull out someones mother at the drop of a hat to justify yourself as though you are sympathetic and really know how they feel. Not very consistent are you.

  326. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 14, 2013 at 3:38 pm #

    scott e: i’m trying to keep up, there are more of you.

    when someone starts a post with are you glad Churchill is gone,

    well… I don’t know. I have seven volumes of Winston S. Churchill here with me now. my dad liked him a lot, . the books appear to be by Randolf s. Churchill. perhaps I will read them.

    my dad also admired Jenny Churchill (lady Randolph), whom apparently invented the manhattan cocktail. I think history favors him. I think FDR liked him

    am I glad he’s gone ? I don’t know…

    Don’t know anything about Churchill? You should learn about him. I am truly saddened to hear that, given his titanic impact on the world.

    Get your hands on William Manchester’s three-volume biography of Churchill…it’s an excellent place to start, and his writing is deep, authoritative, well-researched, and gripping.

    You’re not the first person I’ve run into who knows nothing about Churchill. Sadly, I don’t think you will be the last. It’s ironic that his tombstone just reads “REMEMBER WINSTON CHURCHILL.”

  327. avatar
    sfjeff May 14, 2013 at 3:38 pm #

    scott e: Scott- you started dozens of threads questioning Obama’s eligibility- and repeatedly demanded that we- literally every American- was entitled to see the original that is on file in Hawaii.
    I do not recall you ever asking Romney to provide any proof of eligiblity. I don’t recall you starting even one thread demanding anything from Romney.
    If you say that ‘we should vet all candidates equally’- then why did you not demand that Romney be vetted like you demanded Obama be vetted?
    This is the bottom line Scott.
    You don’t demand that every candidate be vetted equally. You have only demanded this of Obama- over and over and over.
    You say you aren’t a racist- fine- I am more than willing to accept that you aren’t.
    But you can’t escape the smoke from the racist fire- the only candidate that you have ever demanded be vetted is the black one that was elected.
    You had your chance in 2012 to prove to all of us that this was not racially motivated by demanding in the same manner the same things from the white guy.
    But you didn’t.

  328. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 3:39 pm #

    Suranis:
    scott e: so were you able to find such a post, where I say vet 0bama but not the others ??

    No-one has been able to find a post by you saying “Vet Romney or McCain” even a little bit.

    Instead we have had posts by you saying “Romney is a man of integrity etc” as though its an established fact.

    And we certainly haven’t found a post by you saying “this accusation with no evidence against Obama is totally ridiculous” Plenty by you recycling false and disproven conspiracies because “He’s from Chicago so you know it has to be true”

    the Pope Bowie Gaddafi Chavez my mother the guy down the street the guy who called me a freaking idiot everyone on the boston football team Elvis hillary alinsky cartman homer bart marge lisa lots more random names for no reason

    Yeah after months of hearing they have found precisely nothing criminal about Benghazi, so its no wonder you are deliberately knowing nothing about it. Remember whistle-blower Wednesday?

    And yet you will pull out someones mother at the drop of a hat to justify yourself as though you are sympathetic and really know how they feel. Not very consistent are you.

    keep looking..
    hey did you ever change any of my quotes a political forum ? if so why ??
    the Benghazi affair has been in the news, and other stuff too.

  329. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 3:42 pm #

    sfjeff:

    well I’m sure I did, but without the racial overtones you are using here now. you keep trying to paint me as a racist j. why ??

    also, you guys know i’m not a republican right ? so I had nothing invested in Romney, never sent him money… etc…

  330. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 3:45 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: Don’t know anything about Churchill? You should learn about him. I am truly saddened to hear that, given his titanic impact on the world.

    Get your hands on William Manchester’s three-volume biography of Churchill…it’s an excellent place to start, and his writing is deep, authoritative, well-researched, and gripping.

    You’re not the first person I’ve run into who knows nothing about Churchill. Sadly, I don’t think you will be the last. It’s ironic that his tombstone just reads “REMEMBER WINSTON CHURCHILL.”

    ok, I might do that, thanks.

  331. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 3:47 pm #

    CarlOrcas: But you’re not flogging the birther dead horse? Are you serious?

    Just for the record let us note that your obstinate ignorance is not evidence there is “more to the story” and the “controversy” is wholly a product of your imagination.

    whatever floats your boat… but not my permanent record right ??, not like high school… I hope…

  332. avatar
    Monkey Boy May 14, 2013 at 3:53 pm #

    scott e: also, you guys know i’m not a republican right ? so I had nothing invested in Romney, never sent him money… etc…

    What piffle! The last candidate I sent money to was George McGovern, but it just wouldn’t be truthful to say I don’t generally favor Democratic candidates.

  333. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 4:06 pm #

    Monkey Boy: What piffle!The last candidate I sent money to was George McGovern, but it just wouldn’t be truthful to say I don’t generally favor Democratic candidates.

    I don’t know your piffle. I was a gingrich guy, I’m sure that will open the floodgates, good job. I didn’t like the way Romney had the dog on the woof. lol
    I don’t care whom you favored, and I don’t care if you approve of mine.

  334. avatar
    Scientist May 14, 2013 at 4:30 pm #

    hey scott: How is it that you are “deeply concerned” about 4 deaths in Benghazi, yet I haven’t heard even a whimper from you about over 1,000 dead in that factory in Bangladesh? Unlike Benghazi, which may not have been preventable even with the best of precautions, this one most definitely was preventable (the Triangle fire in NYC happened over 100 years ago). Yet, you have been silent on this genuine outrage. And yes, it’s something you and I can all do something about, since these factories exist to supply foreign markets, including the US.

    Oh, but you don’t care, because even you would have a hard time blaming Obama. So, it doesn’t trouble you. Hypocrite!!!

  335. avatar
    Majority Will May 14, 2013 at 4:31 pm #

    It’s about time this thread died a less than merciful death.

  336. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 14, 2013 at 4:33 pm #

    scott e: her son assumed the risk, I think he is a hero, and he was abandoned by his country, multiple times. ostensibly, so has his mother. that’s my opinion. I think our executive branch is corrupt. we’ll all find out together, whom is right.

    So if we spun this like you did Cindy Sheehan’s son was in the same situation and yet you don’t feel the same way

  337. avatar
    Rickey May 14, 2013 at 4:50 pm #

    scott e: the part where I ask, did he not utter those words “Benghazi happened a long time ago”.

    cause i’m pretty sure he did, that doesn’t inspire confidence for someone who was promised a follow up, and is still waiting. that’s all i’m saying. I wouldn’t try to read to much into that.

    He uttered them in the context of questions about talking points, not about the attack itself. You see, Scott, that is what context is all about. The grieving mother has no reason to be upset about talking points.

    For example, if I were to say “Scott is a lying sack of excrement” I could be making a serious attack upon you or I could be making a facetious statement about my friend Scott Johnson. Without knowing the context, you can’t know whether to be offended or that you have no reason to care.

    But of course your primary news source is Fox News, so it is understandable that you don’t know what you are talking about.

    http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/05/14/fox-deceptively-edits-obama-remarks-to-portray/194054

  338. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 14, 2013 at 4:53 pm #

    scott e: ok, I might do that, thanks.

    Scott, if you’re here to talk about politics, world or otherwise, and history, and you know very little about Winston Churchill, then you have a long way to go.

    I don’t know very much about you beyond what you’ve posted here, but from what little you’ve said, you sound like a young guy, and I think you have the often misguided idealism of youth combined with its energy, and a conviction of having all the answers.

    The more you learn, the more you realize you know less about the world. At the same time, you begin to realize certain truths about life. Your perspectives and values change. You realize the importance of the simple and central truths, and gain perspective. Admittedly, you lose passion, but it’s replaced by wisdom. You learn about realities, harsh and pleasant, and that you should neither shout “fire” in a crowded theater, nor “theater” in a crowded fire.

    I always find it interesting to see how radicals of both left and right — the ones that have the intelligence to figure things out — look back decades later on their youthful behavior and positions and realize the error of their ways, if not their ideology.

    I’m pretty sure I’m a good deal older than you, and I don’t pretend that I have all the answers. But I also know that those who pretend to are usually full of it.

    When I was in the third grade, I told people I was “the smartest person in the world.” My adults chuckled with amusement, and my schoolmates used me as a punching bag. It took me about 20 years to disabuse myself of that position, and I paid heavily during that process. Now, because I have learned a great deal about humility, I sound a bit more authoritative — adults don’t chuckle with amusement when I make a point, and interns in my office listen closely.

    You have a long way to go.

  339. avatar
    Jim May 14, 2013 at 4:54 pm #

    Sometimes I wonder if some of the birthers come here and poke people just because they’re lonely and want someone to talk to.

  340. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 14, 2013 at 4:58 pm #

    Jim:
    Sometimes I wonder if some of the birthers come here and poke people just because they’re lonely and want someone to talk to.

    Well, when you’re a “true believer,” as Eric Hoffer pointed out, you think that everyone in the world is actually on your side, and is only opposing you because of intimidation or bribery, unless they'[re part of the great conspiracy.

    Consequently, they believe that if they argue with you, they will eventually convert you to their cause, and you will bring over with you the absolute proof of the grand conspiracy they’re looking for, 10,000 new adherents to create an “army of the lord,” and $3 million in untraceable money to finance the great crusade.

    Remember, to the Birthers, the only reason we’re O-bots is that we have been bought off or intimidated by the machinations of the evil world conspiracy. If we could shake off the shackles of being “sheeple,,” have the veil torn away, and stand up to the intimidation, we would be loyal Birthers.

    It’s like how they keep hunting for that “one honest judge” and keep hounding their Congressmen and Secretaries of State, over and over and over and over again…eventually, they believe, we’ll break down and admit we were wrong, Obama was born in the Falkland Islands to the unholy union of Malcolm X and Mariah Carey.

  341. avatar
    sfjeff May 14, 2013 at 5:17 pm #

    scott e: well I’m sure I did, but without the racial overtones you are using here now. you keep trying to paint me as a racist j. why ??
    also, you guys know i’m not a republican right ? so I had nothing invested in Romney, never sent him money… etc…

    Scott- just address the point- once again

    Scott- you started dozens of threads questioning Obama’s eligibility- and repeatedly demanded that we- literally every American- was entitled to see the original that is on file in Hawaii.

    I do not recall you ever asking Romney to provide any proof of eligiblity. I don’t recall you starting even one thread demanding anything from Romney.

    If you say that ‘we should vet all candidates equally’- then why did you not demand that Romney be vetted like you demanded Obama be vetted?

    This is the bottom line Scott.
    You don’t demand that every candidate be vetted equally. You have only demanded this of Obama- over and over and over.

    You say you aren’t a racist- fine- I am more than willing to accept that you aren’t.
    But you can’t escape the smoke from the racist fire- the only candidate that you have ever demanded be vetted is the black one that was elected.

    You had your chance in 2012 to prove to all of us that this was not racially motivated by demanding in the same manner the same things from the white guy.

    But you didn’t.

    How can you look at yourself in the mirror and even pretend to claim that you want all candidates equally vetted when you know- and I know- that you never applied the same standard to Romney- or any white man- that you have been applying to President Barack Obama since April 2011.

    I am not claiming you are a racist- I am pointing out the glaring fact that you have applied different standards of vetting to one specific man than you have for any other- and if you line them all up in a row- the fact that he is the only non-white man is glaringly obvious.

    You don’t want anyone to think you are a racist?

    Then explain the double standard of your vetting.

  342. avatar
    Majority Will May 14, 2013 at 5:48 pm #

    Jim:
    Sometimes I wonder if some of the birthers come here and poke people just because they’re lonely and want someone to talk to.

    Bingo.

  343. avatar
    Reality Check May 14, 2013 at 5:53 pm #

    He never had any question about Joe Biden either.

    sfjeff: Scott- you started dozens of threads questioning Obama’s eligibility- and repeatedly demanded that we- literally every American- was entitled to see the original that is on file in Hawaii

  344. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 6:28 pm #

    The Magic M: You do know that that specific paragraph is from a comedy website?

    Yep, realized this soon after reading it more carefully. Even issa cannot be that dumb. So i removed it

  345. avatar
    Monkey Boy May 14, 2013 at 6:51 pm #

    scott e: I don’t know your piffle. I was a gingrich guy, I’m sure that will open the floodgates, good job. I didn’t like the way Romney had the dog on the woof. lolI don’t care whom you favored, and I don’t care if you approve of mine.

    I’m going to take a chance and say that you are a liar (big risk, right?) when you claim not to have favored Romney–whether you contributed to him or not. If for no other reason, you hoped that he would get the undesirable family out of the WH.

    And, I don’t give a raggedy rat’s hindparts if you wanted [G]ingrich, Herman “The white hope” Cain, or Tubal Cain; the point is you were, for all practical purposes, stuck with either Romney or Obama. So, I know you lie (gee, what a surprise) when you imply you had no interest in promoting Romney.

  346. avatar
    Majority Will May 14, 2013 at 7:35 pm #

    “a gingrich guy”

    Hypocrites do love fellow hypocrites.

  347. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 8:09 pm #

    Monkey Boy: I’m going to take a chance and say that you are a liar (big risk, right?) when you claim not to have favored Romney–whether you contributed to him or not.If for no other reason, you hoped that he would get the undesirable family out of the WH.

    And, I don’t give a raggedy rat’s hindparts if you wanted [G]ingrich, Herman “The white hope” Cain, or Tubal Cain;the point is you were, for all practical purposes, stuck with either Romney or Obama.So, I know you lie (gee, what a surprise) when you imply you had no interest in promoting Romney.

    that sounds racist to me monkey boy

  348. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 8:10 pm #

    Reality Check:
    He never had any question about Joe Biden either.

    hi professor, what’s new ??

  349. avatar
    Keith May 14, 2013 at 8:15 pm #

    Lupin: By any civilized standards, Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld should be in jail right now.

    Absolutely.

  350. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 8:17 pm #

    scott e: hi professor, what’s new ??

    Yawn… Still licking your wounds?

  351. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 8:18 pm #

    scott e: that sounds racist to me monkey boy

    But is he correct about you?

  352. avatar
    scott e May 14, 2013 at 8:26 pm #

    sfjeff: Scott- just address the point- once again

    Scott- you started dozens of threads questioning Obama’s eligibility- and repeatedly demanded that we- literally every American- was entitled to see the original that is on file in Hawaii.

    I do not recall you ever asking Romney to provide any proof of eligiblity. I don’t recall you starting even one thread demanding anything from Romney.

    If you say that ‘we should vet all candidates equally’- then why did you not demand that Romney be vetted like you demanded Obama be vetted?

    This is the bottom line Scott.
    You don’t demand that every candidate be vetted equally. You have only demanded this of Obama- over and over and over.

    You say you aren’t a racist- fine- I am more than willing to accept that you aren’t.
    But you can’t escape the smoke from the racist fire- the only candidate that you have ever demanded be vetted is the black one that was elected.

    You had your chance in 2012 to prove to all of us that this was not racially motivated by demanding in the same manner the same things from the white guy.

    But you didn’t.

    How can you look at yourself in the mirror and even pretend to claim that you want all candidates equally vetted when you know- and I know- that you never applied the same standard to Romney- or any white man- that you have been applying to President Barack Obama since April 2011.

    I am not claiming you are a racist- I am pointing out the glaring fact that you have applied different standards of vetting to one specific man than you have for any other- and if you line them all up in a row- the fact that he is the only non-white man is glaringly obvious.

    You don’t want anyone to think you are a racist?

    Then explain the double standard of your vetting.

    *******

    i have no double standard for vetting, i have repeatedly defied you to present proof if you have it, so far you have not been able to do so.

    I think all candidates running for elected office should be vetted equally, without regard to race, colour or creed.

    I also believe that all people, man or a women, or a child, should be judged fairly by the content of their character, and not the colour of their skin.

    they should never be hindered, or compromised in any way shape or form, because of their race, religion or creed or philosophical bent, sexual orientation, or where they are from.

    that is what I believe, I was raised by people who believed that, and lived that way.

    nothing you can ever say or do, will ever change that. i have lived that way for my entire life, for which i am extremely proud.

    on apersona; note, i have seen you turn into a cheap operative political hack, it’s too bad, but understandable in the light of the company you keep.

    i may be wrong, ive said it before, Obama may be pure, without corruption, i don’t believe that. but i do believe in your right to subscribe to that very thing.

    let’s throw out your gold teeth and see how they roll.

  353. avatar
    Keith May 14, 2013 at 8:31 pm #

    scott e: yes, it’s not right. we were talking about vetting presidential candidates. jeff implied that I only thought 0bama should be vetted, but that’s not true, I told him to prove his charge and now I am waiting.

    No, we understand that you have said that everyone should be vetted. We are waiting for evidence that you believe what you say. That is something only you can provide.

    What other President have you called for a more strict vetting?

    What exactly should the vetting process be?

    Presidential election cycles are two years long. How much more of a vetting process would be acceptable to you? 5 years?

  354. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 14, 2013 at 8:32 pm #

    Please explain this remark. An unsatisfactory explanation will result in your being banned (again).

    scott e: hi professor, what’s new ??

  355. avatar
    Keith May 14, 2013 at 8:41 pm #

    scott e: but yes solyndra seemed to me to be a waste of tax payer dollars.

    I have never figured out why the Solyndra deal was singled out as some kind of huge boondoggle.

    The Government invests in countless industries and new technological processes all the time. Some work, some don’t. Some go on to employ thousands and earn billions of export dollars, some don’t.

    What’s the big deal with Solyndra? It had the possibility of, in addition to employing thousands and earning billions of export dollars, of reducing the worlds dependence on fossil fuels and carbon em… Oh… Wait… I think I see.

  356. avatar
    Keith May 14, 2013 at 8:46 pm #

    Scientist: If scott is smart (we all know he isn’t) he will focus on 2016, since 2012 is done, last I looked.

    He is. What do you think this Benghazi crap is all about anyway?

  357. avatar
    Keith May 14, 2013 at 8:56 pm #

    scott e:
    look i’m not pretending to be an expert on this, but this is what I find, is/was cbswrong ?

    http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-202_162-4235028.html

    Was CBS wrong? Probably not.

    Did you read the CBS article? Probably not.

    The article says:

    Tuwaitha and an adjacent research facility were well known for decades as the centerpiece of Saddam’s nuclear efforts.

    Israeli warplanes bombed a reactor project at the site in 1981. Later, U.N. inspectors documented and safeguarded the yellowcake, which had been stored in aging drums and containers since before the 1991 Gulf War. There was no evidence of any yellowcake dating from after 1991, the official said.

    Which is exactly what folks have bee telling you on this thread. The yellowcake you are talking about was from Saddam’s nuclear project in the 80’s, it was shut down by the Israeli’s, and locked down by the UN after the Gulf War I. It was NOT, and could not have been a legitimate excuse for Gulf War II.

    You can no longer claim ignorance of the facts. Move on.

  358. avatar
    sfjeff May 14, 2013 at 8:56 pm #

    Okay lets rumble

    scott e: i have no double standard for vetting, i have repeatedly defied you to present proof if you have it, so far you have not been able to do so..

    A selection of threads started by you at PF:

    Poll: Obama Birth Certificate: the new poll 3/24/2013

    obama birth certificate. the media is catching on (dated 8/12/11)

    obama birth certificate…. birfer: the obots know not what they do (2/20/13)

    obama birth certificate scandal: statement of facts (5/2/13)

    obama birth certificate…. the smiling face of smileygate…(9/21/12)

    Poll: obama birth certificate media malpractice scandal and more to come….. (9/12/12)

    scott e.’s new birther thread (8/10/11)- this one has the ironic comment by you

    i don’t automatically accept anyone’s credentials……, you shouldn’t either. what’s the obsession with perry ? i just looked at wikepedia. under the circumstances, all future candidates should have all records scrutinised, it’s a new era. the public should demand it.

    ….so yes what ever obama has to do to prove eligibility, goes equally for the others. no exceptions

    So dozen’s of threads where you demand Obama provide his original birth certificate….and the threads where you demanded that Romney provide his birth certificate?

    ZERO.

    Not one.

    That is proof of your double standard for vetting.

    on apersona; note, i have seen you turn into a cheap operative political hack, it’s too bad, but understandable in the light of the company you keep..

    Scott- you hate being painted into a corner and providing a straight answer.

    You are showing this again.

    All you need to do is explain why you never once questioned Romney’s lack of a Birth Certificate but think that you vet all candidates equally.

  359. avatar
    Keith May 14, 2013 at 9:04 pm #

    nbc: All because of budget cuts… And yet they blame Hillary who had pointed out the risks they had help increase?

    Of course.

  360. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 14, 2013 at 9:09 pm #

    scott e: hi professor, what’s new ??

    Why you calling him a professor now?

  361. avatar
    Majority Will May 14, 2013 at 9:10 pm #

    sfjeff: All you need to do is explain why you never once questioned Romney’s lack of a Birth Certificate but think that you vet all candidates equally.

    And never demanded proof from his hypocritical hero, Newton Leroy Gingrich the serial adulterer either, right?

  362. avatar
    Keith May 14, 2013 at 9:13 pm #

    scott e: so were you able to find such a post, where I say vet 0bama but not the others ??

    Where did you say vet Romney the same way as Obama?

  363. avatar
    donna May 14, 2013 at 9:25 pm #

    Keith:

    when bush began the (solyndra) grant program, congress set aside $10 billion to cover any losses from $26 billion in loans.

    CleanTechnica noted in October, 2011 that private venture capitalists take far greater risks when investing in clean energy:

    With just 1.4% of its Recovery Act clean tech investments in “losers”, it looks like the Obama administration is batting a much better average in “picking winners and losers” than the private Venture Capital (VC) market itself.

    The US government guarantee of a private loan to Solyndra, at $535 million, represented a minuscule 1.4% of the Department of Energy investment in all renewable technologies. By contrast – VCs (who were out $1 billion to Solyndra, for example) expect much higher failure rates. Richard Stuebi, who advises VCs on expected green energy failure rates, says that just 3 in 10 successes represents a successful VC investment strategy. That is 70% losers – not 1.4%.

    http://cleantechnica.com/2011/10/21/obama-doe-picked-more-energy-winners-than-silicon-valley-vcs/

    it’s interesting to note that in 2010 the WSJ named solyndra #5 of “The Next Big Thing – Sizing Up Promising Young Firms”

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703915204575104222702359984.html?mod=WSJ_Small+Business_LEADNewsCollection

    and in a separate survey “And the Top Clean-Tech Companies Are… ”

    “three solar-power firms came out on top: Solyndra Inc. of Fremont, Calif.; Suniva Inc. of Norcross, Ga.; and eSolar Inc. of Pasadena, Calif.”

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704548604575097972068138474.html

  364. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 14, 2013 at 9:44 pm #

    scott e: i have no double standard for vetting, i have repeatedly defied you to present proof if you have it, so far you have not been able to do so.

    Do you think John McCain or Mitt Romney were vetted?

  365. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 9:55 pm #

    scott e: nothing you can ever say or do, will ever change that. i have lived that way for my entire life, for which i am extremely proud.

    ROTFL…

    What’s that cognitive bias called again?…

    But I do enjoy reading how you seemed to buy almost any new revelation about President Obama…

  366. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 9:59 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Please explain this remark. An unsatisfactory explanation will result in your being banned (again).

    Ah now I get it… A bit slow. Scott.e appears to have little logic and reason left if he has to resort to this kind of behavior. But perhaps there was not much to start with

    I do not blame him for running away from the promised debate with Frank. You would not have “survived” a scrutiny of your claims…

    A tactical retreat, very wise… You seem to be very good at that I have come to conclude.

  367. avatar
    Keith May 14, 2013 at 10:05 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: You’re not the first person I’ve run into who knows nothing about Churchill. Sadly, I don’t think you will be the last. It’s ironic that his tombstone just reads “REMEMBER WINSTON CHURCHILL.”

    Australians have a very strong love-hate relationship with Churchill. He is rightly revered as the wartime Prime Minister that served the UK well. There are, after all, a lot of folks in Australia that were in Britain during the war.

    He is also rightly reviled as the that political ‘genius’ behind the Dardenelles plan in WW1 and the Prime Minister that lied to and abandoned Australia in WW2.

    The ANZAC tradition was founded on the beaches of Gallipoli when the Dardanelles plane that failed so badly. Churchill’s idiotically insisted that men, mostly ANZACS with a few Canadians, continue to die there even after is was clearly a hopeless disaster. To this day, Gallipoli is more of a ‘holy site’ to Australians than Gettysburg or Pearl Harbor is to Americans. In Churchill’s own memoirs the Dardanelles campaign is barely touched upon, and the Gallipoli disaster is not mentioned at all, even to place the blame elsewhere, even though it led directly to his losing his job.

    In WWII, Churchill again showed his disdain for colonials by ordering Australian troops to Europe even while the Japanese were bearing down. It took a lot of guts for the Australian PM to tell Churchill go to hell, even when Churchill tried to send them Burma instead. In fact Churchill already knew that Burma was only days from falling and the Australians were not adequately armed to deal with them in Burma or Singapore and had already decided that if the Japanese want Australia they could have it.

    So, instead of spending the war in Japanese POW camps, those troops were the first to defeat the Japanese in battle, in New Guinea. The Kokoda Trail is Australia’s second wartime ‘holy site’.

    Churchill was an extremely flawed, as all humans are. He accomplished great things, but left a lot of carnage behind on the way.

  368. avatar
    Keith May 14, 2013 at 10:19 pm #

    donna: Keith:

    when bush began the (solyndra) grant program, congress set aside $10 billion to cover any losses from $26 billion in loans.

    CleanTechnica noted in October, 2011 that private venture capitalists take far greater risks when investing in clean energy:

    Thanks, I’ve seen most of the details. That’s why I can’t figure out why Solyndra was singled out as an attack point. It just doesn’t make any sense. Other than green projects if successful might have some kind of impact on oil and/or coal companies.

  369. avatar
    Suranis May 14, 2013 at 10:46 pm #

    scott e: keep looking..
    hey did you ever change any of my quotes a political forum ?

    Of course I did, did you think I would deny it?

    if so why ??

    Because your constant dodging and evasions were getting pretty tiresome and ridiculous. After the 47th round of “Hey look at Benghazi! Trump! Lakin! Hey did you know that he said 57 states? Benghazi!” I decided to translate what you said into what you really meant. Like “hey I cant deal with the fact that you have disproven what I just said and I have to talk about something else or say you were right” It saved a lot of time as you suddenly couldn’t I guess you couldn’t deal with someone accurately putting your feelings in your mouth

    And I guess it worked in accurately elucidating your feelings as you are still sulking about it.

    And its not like people couldn’t read your pile of crap. I could change your original posts. Unless you are afraid that people actually thought you were humble for once and told the truth.

    the Benghazi affair has been in the news, and other stuff too.

    And? So was the shocking news that Kim Kardashian wore a Bikini. Tonight on RTE News the second lead story was that Angelina Jolie had a Mastectomy. World shocking news I’m sure you will agree, especially over the fodder crises that’s affecting Irish farmers right now, which was the third slot. All that the Republicans are constantly talking about Benghazi proves is that the Republicans want to keep talking about Benghazi.

    Whistleblower Wednesday. Whistleblower Wednesday.

    This is like Orly taking solace from the amount of hits her name generates on Google.

  370. avatar
    Suranis May 14, 2013 at 10:54 pm #

    As for Churchill, the more I found out about the son of a Bitch the less I liked him. Sure, he lead Britain wonderfully during the war. However, that’s the best you can say about him. A lot of his decisions even during the war were downright idiotic, and if you read a history of his time as first Sea Lord in World War One, you just come away with the image of a complete jackass that would sit people down and talk at them for hours till they agreed to what he said. The Dardanelles was just the most visible of his failures, and pretty much everyone around him despised him. He Had mellowed that side of his character a bit by world war 2, but these days I find myself intensely disliking the man.

    For all that I will tip my hat to him for his leadership in WW2, even as an Irishman.

  371. avatar
    nbc May 14, 2013 at 11:47 pm #

    scott e: I think there is still more to the story, and I think there is still a controversy, as evidenced here and other places.

    The Dunning–Kruger effect is still haunting Scott.e but when you ask him about what controversy, he well, remains silent… Oh such follies… Almost every new announcement raised hope in the poor sod that this time… really this time… something was going to happen that showed that there was really a controversy.

    Good job Scott.e but you really have poor skills at making any logical or reasoned argument. But you did know this already, you just do not believe it :-)

  372. avatar
    Northland10 May 15, 2013 at 7:18 am #

    Interesting. When presented with that Alinsky tactic of presenting facts and pointing out flaws in his arguments, Scott responds by cycling through every right wing poutrage.

    (Note: the last word of my comment above is intentional, not a misspelling.)

  373. avatar
    welsh dragon May 15, 2013 at 8:08 am #

    Suranis:
    As for Churchill, the more I found out about the son of a Bitch the less I liked him. Sure, he lead Britain wonderfully during the war. However, that’s the best you can say about him. A lot of his decisions even during the war were downright idiotic, and if you read a history of his time as first Sea Lord in World War One, you just come away with the image of a complete jackass that would sit people down and talk at them for hours till they agreed to what he said. The Dardanelles was just the most visible of his failures, and pretty much everyone around him despised him. He Had mellowed that side of his character a bit by world war 2, but these days I find myself intensely disliking the man.

    For all that I will tip my hat to him for his leadership in WW2, even as an Irishman.

    Growing up in South Wales, I was exposed to two different views of Churchill, one as the great war leader, the other as the man who sent troops against striking coal miners in Tonypandy. (You may recall that Kimba used to have a sig at Fogbow “It’s Tonypandy” which was a reference from a novel to this – I often wonder how many people realized what it was}

    As time has gone on it’s become very clear he was a complex and deeply flawed man – divisive, brilliant, energetic, arrogant, stupid, inspiring, brave, dishonest sometimes all at he same time.

  374. avatar
    scott e May 15, 2013 at 8:37 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Please explain this remark. An unsatisfactory explanation will result in your being banned (again).

    it means i’m working on a new book about all of you, soon to be in stoors everywhere… LOL,

    good luck with everything, thanks for the lively conversation, i’ll be at the political forum if you need me for anything. cheers everyone !

  375. avatar
    misha marinsky May 15, 2013 at 9:09 am #

    Suranis: For all that I will tip my hat to him for his leadership in WW2, even as an Irishman.

    Shaw: “If I could only live six more years.”
    Doctor: “Why do you want to live six more years?”
    Shaw: “Then people could say, ‘There was an Irishman who hated the British a whole hundred years.’ “

  376. avatar
    donna May 15, 2013 at 10:17 am #

    Keith: Other than green projects if successful might have some kind of impact on oil and/or coal companies.

    you got it toyota – solyndra was/is the pavlov dog bell – recently it’s “benghazi” – as governor, mitt had failures in his grant program and rick perry’s failure rate in his program is 27% – anti-obama people regurgitate simple words like solyndra, benghazi, alien, fast & furious, etc to keep their flock engaged

  377. avatar
    Jim May 15, 2013 at 10:31 am #

    nbc: A tactical retreat, very wise… You seem to be very good at that I have come to conclude.

    Actually, when faced with the truth and facts about the Presidents birth, I found the birthers are very consistent with their tactical retreats…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAp9sFVdERQ

  378. avatar
    sfjeff May 15, 2013 at 12:43 pm #

    This is what Birthers will not- and can not understand.

    I imagine that most of the posters here have concerns about the IRS targetting conservative groups.

    I think that many, if not most, have concerns about the Justice Department going after AP records.

    I personally think we should know more about what happened in Benghazi.

    If a trail of actual evidence leads back to Obama acting illegally in any manner, I would support his impeachment.

    But Birthers want to squish everything together- every whackadoodle theory is just as valid to them as the IRS issue- they cannot comprehend that someone would reject Birther idiocy and still be willing to hold Obama accountable if he actually knowingly did something illegal.

    Oh and has Scott been banned or has he just run away from my question?

  379. avatar
    Rickey May 15, 2013 at 2:16 pm #

    Keith:

    Which is exactly what folks have been telling you on this thread. The yellowcake you are talking about was from Saddam’s nuclear project in the 80′s, it was shut down by the Israeli’s, and locked down by the UN after the Gulf War I. It was NOT, and could not have been a legitimate excuse for Gulf War II.

    You can no longer claim ignorance of the facts. Move on.

    This is a perfect example of why arguing with birthers such as Scott is fruitless.

    At least three people here have explained to him that the yellowcake which was transferred from Iraq to Canada was pre-Gulf War yellowcake and its existence was well known to both the U.S. and the U.N. inspectors. It was not suitable for making WMDs. It was not one of the announced rationales for launching the Iraq War. Colin Powell never mentioned that yellowcake in his presentation at the U.N.

    Scott has known all of this for at least 24 hours. If he were an honest debater, he would acknowledge that he was wrong and that the yellowcake had no connection with the alleged WMDs, which were non-existent. But he won’t do it. Birthers are incapable of admitting that they are wrong about anything.

  380. avatar
    nbc May 15, 2013 at 2:48 pm #

    But Scott.e is not letting such facts disturb his blissful ignorance…

    Rickey: At least three people here have explained to him that the yellowcake which was transferred from Iraq to Canada was pre-Gulf War yellowcake and its existence was well known to both the U.S. and the U.N. inspectors. It was not suitable for making WMDs. It was not one of the announced rationales for launching the Iraq War. Colin Powell never mentioned that yellowcake in his presentation at the U.N.

  381. avatar
    donna May 15, 2013 at 3:28 pm #

    sfjeff: I personally think we should know more about what happened in Benghazi.

    CNN PROVED that ABC lied about the benghazi emails – karl hadn’t OBTAINED the emails he “quoted”

    “In the third paragraph of his May 10 ABCNews.com article, Karl reported that “White House emails reviewed by ABC News suggest the edits were made with extensive input from the State Department. Three paragraphs later, he wrote that ‘Summaries of White House and State Department emails — some of which were first published by Stephen Hayes of the Weekly Standard — show that the State Department had extensive input into the editing of the talking points’. That was the sole reference to ‘summaries’ in the online article. Instead, he repeatedly produced quotes from what he described as ‘emails,’ suggesting that he had personally reviewed the original documents.”

    http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/05/14/when-abc-news-claimed-it-had-obtained-the-bengh/194076

    steff: I imagine that most of the posters here have concerns about the IRS targetting conservative groups.

    AND liberal groups – the ONLY GROUP disqualified was the liberal group “Emerge America” (a progressive nonprofit that trains Democratic female candidates for public office)

    When the IRS targeted liberals
    Under George W. Bush, it went after the NAACP, Greenpeace and even a liberal church

    http://www.salon.com/2013/05/14/when_the_irs_targeted_liberals/singleton/

    steff: I think that many, if not most, have concerns about the Justice Department going after AP records.

    the AP leaks were about a foiled terrorist plot – who leaked that info to the AP? would obama benefit from the leak of a foiled plot we/he foiled?

    “There was anger in the British government over the leak and subsequent news reports that disclosed U.K. spies had been heavily involved in the operation.”

    “The alleged details of the operation, which were never officially confirmed, were straight out of a John Le Carre novel. According to reports, a U.K. passport holder of Yemeni descent was recruited by British security officials and sent to Yemen to infiltrate an al Qaeda group.”

    “The details of alleged U.K. involvement were attributed by many American media outlets to U.S. security sources. According to London’s Times newspaper, the level of detail made public had left British officials ‘slack-jawed’.”

  382. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 15, 2013 at 3:34 pm #

    Keith: Australians have a very strong love-hate relationship with Churchill. He is rightly revered as the wartime Prime Minister that served the UK well. There are, after all, a lot of folks in Australia that were in Britain during the war.

    He is also rightly reviled as the that political ‘genius’ behind the Dardenelles plan in WW1 and the Prime Minister that lied to and abandoned Australia in WW2.

    The ANZAC tradition was founded on the beaches of Gallipoli when the Dardanelles plane that failed so badly.Churchill’s idiotically insisted that men, mostly ANZACS with a few Canadians, continue to die there even after is was clearly a hopeless disaster. To this day, Gallipoli is more of a ‘holy site’ to Australians than Gettysburg or Pearl Harbor is to Americans. In Churchill’s own memoirs the Dardanelles campaign is barely touched upon, and the Gallipoli disaster is not mentioned at all, even to place the blame elsewhere, even though it led directly to his losing his job.

    In WWII, Churchill again showed his disdain for colonials by ordering Australian troops to Europe even while the Japanese were bearing down. It took a lot of guts for the Australian PM to tell Churchill go to hell, even when Churchill tried to send them Burma instead. In fact Churchill already knew that Burma was only days from falling and the Australians were not adequately armed to deal with them in Burma or Singapore andhad already decided that if the Japanese want Australia they could have it.

    So, instead of spending the war in Japanese POW camps, those troops were the first to defeat the Japanese in battle, in New Guinea. The Kokoda Trail is Australia’s second wartime ‘holy site’.

    Churchill was an extremely flawed, as all humans are. He accomplished great things, but left a lot of carnage behind on the way.

    Okay, we’ll have to agree to disagree on the Dardanelles. There were a LOT of people who hosed that operation up, and as Australian historians have pointed out, some of them were ANZACs.

    You can hammer De Robeck, who refused to make that one more attack with his battleships on March 18, 1915, which would have broken through — the Turks were out of ammunition.

    You can certainly hammer Johnny Hamilton, Stopford, and the other generals who did not even try to “grip” the battle. Hamilton sat on his HQ ship, the Jonquil, writing meditations on the mysteries of life while generals who had never led troops in battle gave idiotic orders ashore.

    You can hammer the logistics guys who ensured that the Allied forces lacked water, mortars, grenades, and medical supplies.

    But Churchill’s idea was not a bad one…had the Allies broken through to Constantinople, the whole history of the Middle East and World War I would have been different. As senior minister, he had to take the blame. He did not “grip” the situation either, and he chose some pretty poor subordinates to command that fiasco. The only thing that went right at Gallipoli was the evacuation.

    Australia has a strange love-hate relationship with Britain anyway…it’s understandable. It dates back to the nation being founded by Briton’s expelled convicts.

  383. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 15, 2013 at 3:46 pm #

    welsh dragon: Growing up in South Wales, I was exposed to two different views of Churchill, one as the great war leader, the other as the man who sent troops against striking coal miners in Tonypandy. (You may recall that Kimba used to have a sig at Fogbow “It’s Tonypandy” which was a reference from a novel to this – I often wonder how many people realized what it was}

    As time has gone on it’s become very clear he was a complex and deeply flawed man – divisive, brilliant, energetic, arrogant, stupid, inspiring, brave, dishonest sometimes all at he same time.

    Okay, Tonypandy is the name of the town, and that has been got all wrong, mostly by the Trades Union Council. Churchill did NOT send troops to Tonypandy, and nobody was massacred.

    What happened was this: the rougher elements of the Rhondda Valley crowd had got quite out of hand during a big miners’ strike. Shops were being looted. The authorities asked then-Home Secretary Winston Churchill to send in the troops. When the powers that be in Britain do so, it’s pretty serious. But Churchill was very nervous about inflicting troops on the Welsh miners, so he sent in a party of Metropolitan Police, and kept the troops in reserve.

    The bobbies attacked the rioters — with rolled-up mackintoshes. Nobody was killed, and rioters suffered a bruise or two.

    Now, in nearby Porth, the troops were sent — a squadron of the 18th Hussars — but again, they didn’t kill anybody. When the cops showed up, they clashed with the rioters. One miner, Samuel Rhys, was killed by a police officer’s baton. Oddly enough, at the time, the troops were viewed with less hostility than the police, who were seen as an “army of occupation.”

    The shadow of this bizarre incident haunted Churchill for decades. In his 1950 General Election campaign, he had to address the issue in a Cardiff speech, saying “When I was Home Secretary in 1910, I had a great horror and fear of having to become responsible for the military firing on a crowd of rioters and strikers. Also, I was always in sympathy with the miners.”

    In 1978, there was an uproar in the House of Commons, when Churchill’s grandson, Winston S. Churchill, replying to a routine question on miners’ pay, was warned by James Callaghan — who was a small child in Wales during WW1 — not to pursue “the vendetta of your family against the miners of Tonypandy.”

    It’s one of the great historical myths, like Washington and the cherry tree, Betsy Ross and the flag, and Lincoln “The rail-splitter.”

    Incidentally, on the topic of historic myths, two of America’s great quotes are post-dated: Nathan Hale’s and John Paul Jones’s. The contemporary record of Hale’s last words were from the British: asked for his last words, Hale said it was the duty of all officers to obey orders of their superiors.

    The contemporary British record on John Paul Jones was: “Asked to surrender, Jones replied in the most determined negative.” I expect Jones yelled, “Ahh, your mother wears army boots!”

    To which the captain of HMS Serapis undoubtedly turned to his exec and said, “I didn’t know that blighter knew my mother.”

    Both quotes came to light decades later, from descendants.

  384. avatar
    Bonsall Obot May 15, 2013 at 7:35 pm #

    This thread, and similar threads infested by Scott and john, remind me of nothing so much as the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode where Data defeats a game-master by refusing to engage him on his own terms, playing always for a draw instead of for a win.This frustrates the game-master no end; Data was not playing the game the way it was meant to be played.

    Scott and john do not argue in good faith; they are not interested in finding the truth, they are only interested in arguing for argument’s sake. They are impervious to facts and logic, using their time and effort to tie up the resources of as many sincere posters as possible, never contributing anything substantive to the discussion.

    In other words, you’re all being played by a couple of trolls.

  385. avatar
    Keith May 15, 2013 at 7:42 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: Okay, we’ll have to agree to disagree on the Dardanelles. There were a LOT of people who hosed that operation up, and as Australian historians have pointed out, some of them were ANZACs.

    I don’t think we disagree at all, actually. What you say is quite right. Also, I am sure you are more a student of this than I, so I have very little ground to dispute with you anyway.

    I believe I pointed out that Churchill was the ‘political’ brain behind the plan, not the military brain. No matter how much difference the Dardenelles plan might have made, the fact is that it failed, and Churchill continued to press the plan even after that was clear. ANZACs were on the beach much longer than they should have, had Churchill ‘gripped’ what what happening. That the British Military command did not ‘grip’ the battle and was not reporting what was actually happening contributed to that failure is probably beyond doubt as well.

    The other thing that went right at Gallipoli besides the evacuation was the emergence of Australian General John Monash. Montgomery called him “the best General on the Western Front”. The idea of promoting Monash to Field Marshall is attracting some attention.

    Promote Monash to field marshal says MP

  386. avatar
    Northland10 May 15, 2013 at 8:19 pm #

    Bonsall Obot: In other words, you’re all being played by a couple of trolls.

    That is most likely, especially for Scott, but I suspect some here are just enjoying pocking trolls with a stick. They do not expect anything but enjoy the entertainment. The one good thing that comes out is some comments from others (beyond the trolls). The trolls may not listen but there is sometimes a new gem that comes out of this.

  387. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 15, 2013 at 8:39 pm #

    So it was a threat of outing, or at the least disclosure of what you think is personal information about RC. That’s not allowed on the blog, and that is why I asked for an explanation, and why you’re banned.

    scott e: it means i’m working on a new book about all of you, soon to be in stoors everywhere… LOL,

    good luck with everything, thanks for the lively conversation, i’ll be at the political forum if you need me for anything. cheers everyone !

  388. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater May 15, 2013 at 9:08 pm #

    scott e: it means i’m working on a new book about all of you, soon to be in stoors everywhere… LOL,

    good luck with everything, thanks for the lively conversation, i’ll be at the political forum if you need me for anything. cheers everyone !

    Is it going to be a popup book since we know you won’t have anything to fill the pages? Brave Sir Robin ran away

  389. avatar
    nbc May 15, 2013 at 11:44 pm #

    scott e: it means i’m working on a new book about all of you, soon to be in stoors everywhere… LOL,

    As expected. Scott.e ran away again… Hilarious…And so unexpected

  390. avatar
    nbc May 15, 2013 at 11:46 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: So it was a threat of outing, or at the least disclosure of what you think is personal information about RC. That’s not allowed on the blog, and that is why I asked for an explanation, and why you’re banned.

    Poor scott.e, he ran before he was banned now he cannot claim that he was banned and did not run.

    Such a fantastic specimen of a ‘birther’ and the Dunning–Kruger effect.

  391. avatar
    donna May 15, 2013 at 11:50 pm #

    scott e: it means i’m working on a new book about all of you, soon to be in stoors everywhere… LOL,

    didn’t you mean “stools” everywhere like in the commode?

    http://s565.photobucket.com/user/beep16/media/Decorated%20images/toilet.jpg.html

  392. avatar
    Suranis May 16, 2013 at 12:36 am #

    A Stoor is a type of hobbit. But its far more likely that Scott tried to write “store” and got it wrong, unless his copy of “Porn of the Rings” has unspeakable things being done to Hobbits with books.

    Its somewhat fitting that his final triumphant words on the blog made him look like a complete ass.

  393. avatar
    Majority Will May 16, 2013 at 5:57 am #

    Suranis:
    A Stoor is a type of hobbit. But its far more likely that Scott tried to write “store” and got it wrong, unless his copy of “Porn of the Rings” has unspeakable things being done to Hobbits with books.

    Its somewhat fitting that his final triumphant words on the blog made him look like a complete ass.

    The gods of irony are smilin’!

  394. avatar
    welsh dragon May 16, 2013 at 12:35 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: Okay, Tonypandy is the name of the town, and that has been got all wrong, mostly by the Trades Union Council. Churchill did NOT send troops to Tonypandy, and nobody was massacred.
    What happened was this: the rougher elements of the Rhondda Valley crowd had got quite out of hand during a big miners’ strike. Shops were being looted. The authorities asked then-Home Secretary Winston Churchill to send in the troops. When the powers that be in Britain do so, it’s pretty serious. But Churchill was very nervous about inflicting troops on the Welsh miners, so he sent in a party of Metropolitan Police, and kept the troops in reserve.
    The bobbies attacked the rioters — with rolled-up mackintoshes. Nobody was killed, and rioters suffered a bruise or two.
    Now, in nearby Porth, the troops were sent — a squadron of the 18th Hussars — but again, they didn’t kill anybody. When the cops showed up, they clashed with the rioters. One miner, Samuel Rhys, was killed by a police officer’s baton. Oddly enough, at the time, the troops were viewed with less hostility than the police, who were seen as an “army of occupation.”

    snip.

    It’s one of the great historical myths, like Washington and the cherry tree, Betsy Ross and the flag, and Lincoln “The rail-splitter.”

    With the possible exception of the rolled up mackintoshes (I think the would have had capes rather than mackintoshes) everything you say is true. But the myth was persistent and very much alive in my childhood and provided an interesting counterpoint to the near idolatrous praise that we would see in the media.

  395. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 16, 2013 at 5:26 pm #

    Bonsall Obot:
    This thread, and similar threads infested by Scott and john, remind me of nothing so much as the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode where Data defeats a game-master by refusing to engage him on his own terms, playing always for a draw instead of for a win.This frustrates the game-master no end; Data was not playing the game the way it was meant to be played.

    Scott and john do not argue in good faith; they are not interested in finding the truth, they are only interested in arguing for argument’s sake. They are impervious to facts and logic, using their time and effort to tie up the resources of as many sincere posters as possible, never contributing anything substantive to the discussion.

    In other words, you’re all being played by a couple of trolls.

    Never saw that episode, but I’m greatly amused that Scott E (or Scotty) covered up his inglorious retreat by claiming victory. Him and Tom Dewey.

  396. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 16, 2013 at 5:27 pm #

    Keith: I don’t think we disagree at all, actually. What you say is quite right. Also, I am sure you are more a student of this than I, so I have very little ground to dispute with you anyway.

    I believe I pointed out that Churchill was the ‘political’ brain behind the plan, not the military brain. No matter how much difference the Dardenelles plan might have made, the fact is that it failed, and Churchill continued to press the plan even after that was clear. ANZACs were on the beach much longer than they should have, had Churchill ‘gripped’ what what happening. That the British Military command did not ‘grip’ the battle and was not reporting what was actually happening contributed to that failure is probably beyond doubt as well.

    The other thing that went right at Gallipoli besides the evacuation was the emergence of Australian General John Monash. Montgomery called him “the best General on the Western Front”. The idea of promoting Monash to Field Marshall is attracting some attention.

    Promote Monash to field marshal says MP

    Very aware of Monash’s brilliance. He was also of Jewish-German descent, founded a university in Australia after the war, and was big in hydro power development. He also had an interesting hobby of cataloguing in his daily diary the contents of his pockets for that day.

  397. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 16, 2013 at 5:32 pm #

    welsh dragon: With the possible exception of the rolled up mackintoshes (I think the would have had capes rather than mackintoshes) everything you say is true. But the myth was persistent and very much alive in my childhood and provided an interesting counterpoint to the near idolatrous praise that we would see in the media.

    Manchester’s biography refers to the “rolled-up mackintoshes,” so I have little reason to doubt him.

    It irritates me when myths are paraded as history. In America, my daughter and I gamely sat through tales that

    1. Columbus proved the world was round.
    2. The English colonization of America began at Plymouth Rock.
    3. Washington chopped down a cherry tree.
    4. Valley Forge was a brutal winter.
    5. Betsy Ross sewed up the flag.
    6. Paul Revere warned the rebels that the “British were coming” all by himself.
    7. The Boston Massacre was a horrible British atrocity.
    8. Zebulon Pike saw the peak that bears his name.
    9. The Civil War had nothing to do with slavery.
    10. The Founding Fathers were all revered at the time.
    11. The US had nothing to do with coups in Iran, Guatemala, and Chile.
    12. Helen Keller’s life ended for public purposes with her graduation from Radcliffe.
    13. The history of the United States is a procession of inevitabilities in which the good guys always win.

  398. avatar
    Keith May 16, 2013 at 5:53 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: He… founded a university in Australia after the war

    I don’t think so. If you mean Monash University, from which I have a degree, it was founded in the 1970’s, and is now the largest University in Australia. Monash died in 1931 I believe.

    Edit: I was wrong about 1970’s. From their website:

    Named after engineer, military leader and public administrator Sir John Monash, Monash University was established by an Act of Parliament in 1958. When our first students began their studies at our foundation campus in Clayton in 1961, we became the first university established in the state of Victoria in over 100 years.

  399. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 16, 2013 at 6:06 pm #

    Keith: I don’t think so. If you mean Monash University, from which I have a degree, it was founded in the 1970′s, and is now the largest University in Australia. Monash died in 1931 I believe.

    Edit: I was wrong about 1970′s. From their website:

    Yeah, Monash University. I thought he founded it. I guess it was named after him. Couldn’t remember precisely. I know he was involved in electrical hydro power from the postage stamp, which shows him in uniform and has an electrical tower in the background, on a red field.

  400. avatar
    Keith May 16, 2013 at 6:27 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: Yeah, Monash University. I thought he founded it. I guess it was named after him. Couldn’t remember precisely. I know he was involved in electrical hydro power from the postage stamp, which shows him in uniform and has an electrical tower in the background, on a red field.

    Yes. He ran the Victrorian State Electricity Board for years. I believe he was instrumental in the initial development of the Victorian concept for the Snowy River Project but did not live to see it implemented. NSW wanted it for irrigation, Victoria wanted it for hydroelectricity. It didn’t get off the ground until after WWII, and was the impetus for massive Southern European immigration in the 50’s for labor. To this day, Melbourne is the largest Greek city outside of Greece, and has a sitting MP in the Italian Parliament.

  401. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 17, 2013 at 1:36 pm #

    So I have to ask…how does Melbourne get an MP in the Italian Parliament?

  402. avatar
    welsh dragon May 17, 2013 at 2:31 pm #

    Kiwiwriter:
    So I have to ask…how does Melbourne get an MP in the Italian Parliament?

    I came across this as a bit of trivia a few years ago. The Italian Parliament has seats representing Italians living abroad. A couple of Melbourne men got themselves elected,

  403. avatar
    Kiwiwriter May 17, 2013 at 5:22 pm #

    welsh dragon: I came across this as a bit of trivia a few years ago. The Italian Parliament has seats representing Italians living abroad. A couple of Melbourne men got themselves elected,

    Ah hah…Italians abroad. Sort of like how the US Democratic Party has a “Democrats Abroad” primary for Democrats living outside the United States. It is run out of London, for its central location and importance, and they do an even there on “Democrats Abroad” primary day. They have a couple of seats at the convention.

    If I had stayed in New Zealand, I was going to get involved in that, so I could be a delegate at a Democratic National Convention…I always had this dream of being able to stand there in front of the whole world and deliver one of those pompous speeches the delegates do at conventions.

  404. avatar
    Keith May 17, 2013 at 9:24 pm #

    Kiwiwriter:
    So I have to ask…how does Melbourne get an MP in the Italian Parliament?

    What the Dragon said plus:

    Melbourne men set for Italian parliament

    Two Melbourne men who won seats in Italy’s parliament celebrated and admitted they had been ashamed of their home country under the Berlusconi government.

    Nino Randazzo, a 73-year-old playwright and former editor of the Melbourne-based Il Globo newspaper, with his running mate Marco Fedi, 48, have been elected to represent Italians abroad.

    Their electorate includes Australia, Oceania, Africa, Asia, Italian scientists in Antarctica and Italian soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan.