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Tolerance and respectful language

In an essay on categorizing conspiracy theories, author Paul McCaffrey writes, following a section describing the characterization of conspiracy theorists as wearing tinfoil hats:

…the good-versus-evil, truth-versus-deception dynamic may divide the world a little too neatly and not in a healthy way. There are the conspirators and those working against them, the good guys and the bad guys. They there are the people in the middle, the general public, who to the conspiracists may be, at best, unwitting dupes and pawns, and at worst, potential agents of the conspiracy. Characterizing one’s fellow citizens along these lines is not necessarily a good recipe for tolerance and respectful language.1

While I hold out tolerance and respectful language as a virtue and a goal on this web site, it hasn’t worked very well in practice. I don’t comment a lot elsewhere, but when I do such exchanges typically devolve into shouting matches and contests over who can be the most condescending. Here, I have felt it necessary to ban certain individuals just to keep the peace to prevent the same thing (and not always successfully).

The truth is that there are conspiracy theories. There are bad people (by my standards) who attempt to influence events secretly. The government doesn’t always tell the truth. Elections have been stolen. There are political dirty tricks. I became politically aware during the Vietnam War and the publication of The Pentagon Papers revealed widespread and longstanding deception on the part of the government not only to the public, but to Congress. Healthy skepticism about the consensus view is a good thing and so is questioning our assumptions from time to time.

That conciliating language doesn’t help me with the birthers. The problem with the birthers is that their skepticism is tied to a lack of critical thinking, bias, contextual violations, junk science and outright lies. Some of the birthers are hateful people, not because they are birthers, but because of who they are in general. These are people I would avoid in real life, and people I am equally pleased to avoid online. Other birthers cause me difficulty because they go against two principles I hold in high esteem: unbiased reasoning and truth telling. The very fact that birtherism asserts a demonstrably false conclusion means that it is against unbiased reasoning and truth telling. The fundamental disrespect I have for the way birthers think cannot help but spill out in the dialog.

While I would like to draw the distinction between those who are honestly mistaken, and those who are intentionally lying, I haven’t figured out any fool-proof way to tell which is which. So this leaves me with “ends” and “means.” Certainly the end of not having Obama in the White House is an honorable one. Several political parties tried to accomplish that this last election. Even trying to prove legally that US Presidents most have two citizen parents is something that folks are entitled to do, even though it’s against the consensus. What is not OK by me is the “means” employed in some of those pursuits, and I am going to catalog some of those means following:

  1. Pretending to be an expert.
  2. Taking citations out of context.
  3. Faking historical documents
  4. Forging official documents
  5. Using propaganda techniques to mislead people
  6. Logical fallacies
  7. Telling only one side of the story
  8. Failing to acknowledge contrary evidence
  9. Repeating rumors as true without checking them first
  10. Junk science

However laudable it may be to uncover real conspiracies and to expose official malfeasance, those means are not a road to truth. I see no reason to spare the wrath of comment on any of these things. As for people, nothing is served by venting wrath on them.


1Conspiracy Theories (The Reference Shelf), H. W. Wilson pub 2012, p. xi.

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87 Responses to Tolerance and respectful language

  1. avatar
    AC180 July 24, 2013 at 5:15 pm #

    “As for people, nothing is served by venting wrath on them.”

    Very good article Doc, this is one of the reasons I have such respect for your blog – I admire not only your honesty but also your respect and honor; You can disagree without being disagreeable, which is something that took me a long time to learn to do myself.

    We live in such a divided country where nasty, hateful rhetoric seems to be the norm. People who act in such a hateful way toward their “opposition” might not always be a reflection of who they are at their core, but rather a symptom of the corrosive nature of fear and hate that seems to be somewhat “contagious” in this day and age. So many people are very afraid and many are hurting inside over many things that are going on (some real, and in the case of birthers: some imagined) . Fear can provoke people into doing or saying things they would otherwise never do. People CAN and DO change, however. I’m so glad I found a way to escape the clutches of hate that once had it’s grip on me and even ended up getting me into trouble. I can now put myself in my political oppositions shoes and have a sense of empathy for them that I didn’t have before. They’re just human beings, many of whom are just hurting inside and probably feel fairly hopeless. I’ll always have my ideological differences with them but I realize I don’t have to contribute to their pain by attacking them on a personal level.

    -Adam Cox

  2. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 24, 2013 at 5:26 pm #

    Screaming doesn’t accomplish anything, you’re right.

    For those who are immune to logic or just polite discourse I think ridicule is an effective response.

  3. avatar
    Jim July 24, 2013 at 5:42 pm #

    CarlOrcas:
    Screaming doesn’t accomplish anything, you’re right.

    For those who are immune to logic or just polite discourse I think ridicule is an effective response.

    I’ve found, in my experience, that laughing at them works just as well…they don’t like to be the butt of jokes.

  4. avatar
    Daniel July 24, 2013 at 5:55 pm #

    Jim: I’ve found, in my experience, that laughing at them works just as well…they don’t like to be the butt of jokes.

    Ridicule or laughter won’t help convince them….but it does place the birthers in the correct light, which in turns instills healthy skepticism in the fence sitters.

  5. avatar
    richCares July 24, 2013 at 6:09 pm #

    There is one good thing about birthers, and FreeRepublic is having a contest to find out what that one thing is.

  6. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater July 24, 2013 at 6:15 pm #

    This article didn’t spring up as a result of last night did it? Besides asking simple questions of birthers I’ve found the best way to defuse them is laughing out them

  7. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 24, 2013 at 8:32 pm #

    The article was inspired by the quote that leads it and the article from which it comes that I just read. It also relates to comments made on my YouTube channel (and no, there’s nothing of interest there except the Kapi’olani 100th anniversary video).

    I decided not to write about last night’s episode of RC Radio and I would rather put it behind me. I communicated my feelings about the show to RC directly.

    Of all the words I might choose to characterize that interchange, “defuse” is not one of them.

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: This article didn’t spring up as a result of last night did it? Besides asking simple questions of birthers I’ve found the best way to defuse them is laughing out them

  8. avatar
    Arthur July 24, 2013 at 11:06 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Of all the words I might choose to characterize that interchange, “defuse” is not one of them.

    If this is about Nancy Owens, she is clearly mentally ill. Personally, I don’t see any value in giving a platform to someone who is as unhinged as she is. She’s not a birther so much as she’s psychotic.

    “The main feature of this disorder is the presence of delusions, which are unshakable beliefs in something untrue. People with delusional disorder experience non-bizarre delusions, which involve situations that could occur in real life, such as being followed, poisoned, deceived, conspired against, or loved from a distance. These delusions usually involve the misinterpretation of perceptions or experiences. In reality, however, the situations are either not true at all or highly exaggerated.”

    http://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/guide/delusional-disorder

    I’ll add that there appear to be many other people who have latched on to birtherism as a way to legitimize and give voice to their psychosis.

  9. avatar
    Helen July 25, 2013 at 2:35 am #

    1.Pretending to be an expert.

    How can that be established on the web?
    2.Taking citations out of context.
    Are all citations correct, and to be believed?
    3.Faking historical documents
    How can they be proven to be faked, if people won’t believe the evidence
    4.Forging official documents
    All such things should be reported to the authorities, Have you done any reporting
    5.Using propaganda techniques to mislead people
    Normal Media and Political practices
    6.Logical fallacies
    If it is logical, how can it be a fallacy?
    7.Telling only one side of the story
    Does anyone every support the other side of the story?
    8.Failing to acknowledge contrary evidence
    How can you telll good evidence without using your own biases
    9.Repeating rumors as true without checking them first
    How do you check a rumor that has no foundation
    10.Junk science
    There is no junk science until the science has been proven to be not valid. And that can not be done by posters on the web.

    But, that is a good summary of what you believe. Do you follow that in your posting?

  10. avatar
    The Magic M July 25, 2013 at 3:48 am #

    However laudable it may be to uncover real conspiracies and to expose official malfeasance, those means are not a road to truth.

    Birthers believe that the end justifies the means. To a certain extent, I can understand (but not condone) that.

    I once had to sue a guy who refused to comply with a contract. The guy brought several false witnesses for a phone call that never happened, and I pondered for a while whether I should falsify my own phone records to prove that call could not have happened (all I’d have had to do was modify a copy of my phone records in Photoshop to extend the length of one actual call into the timeframe where the non-existant call allegedly had taken place). Of course I didn’t do it, but that’s the kind of stuff that goes through your mind when you are right (or are convinced you’re right) but fear the wrong will prevail because its lies are better than your truths.

  11. avatar
    bovril July 25, 2013 at 8:09 am #

    I listened to the RC show and am a teeny weeny little bit ambivalent about the Nancy piece.

    The regular readers of this blog will have no questions as to my depth of loathing for birthers, their ilk, supporters, enablers and proponents.

    I have no issues, problems, moral qualms or concerns about calling Birthers what they are, smacking them around verbally or even from time to time swearing in their general direction

    On the other hand, those such as Nancy, who I feel is more mad than bad should PROBABLY be handled slightly more carefully.

    She isn’t taken seriously or even quoted by others in Birferstan and the best for her would be to simply ignore her totally. It left me feeling a little as if we were poking a lunatic through the bars at Bedlam.

    Now if the caller had been such as Gallups, Zullo, Corsi, Orly etc then the call was far too toned down, collegiate and congenial…………

    IMHO….YMMV

  12. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 25, 2013 at 9:07 am #

    Yes, I try to avoid those things 10 things in my posting. I don’t have an editorial review board, except the commenters here, but I think I do a good job. If you think that in the 2,893 articles on the blog that there is one with junk science, or where I falsely claim to be an expert, by all means point it out. It’s not unusual for me to go back to a 3-year-old-article and correct a misspelled word, refresh a hyperlink, or say something a little better.

    As for always being civil, I said in the article that that hasn’t worked out very well.

    Helen: But, that is a good summary of what you believe. Do you follow that in your posting?

  13. avatar
    scott e July 25, 2013 at 9:46 am #

    nice essay. I guess we’re the yin to your yang. you guys aren’t exactly the last bastion of truth and morality. while you are lesser in your attacks than your flock, you seem to have no problem in enabling their sometimes vicious banter.

    look, you guys are the ones that put yourselves out in public, that’s fair game. every once in awhile some of the anti’s venture over to my playground (pf or usmess), but for the most part they stay here to enjoy the comfort/protection of your umbrella.

    I think you obots wrecked john woodman’s forum, I witnessed the evolution. the bots took it over and did the same thing you do here. and, in all fairness, I’ve seen what seem to be nice people, driven away. that’s an obot trademark, I
    ve seen countless players ridiculed out of pf and usmess.

    so I don’t have much sympathy for you in that regard. when you step into the ring, expect to get hit, even if you have the home court advantage.

    that said, I do enjoy the discussion, as I continue to study all of you and find out what makes you tick. but you can’t have Falstaff and have him thin… right ?

    this should bring some zingers…..

  14. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 25, 2013 at 10:00 am #

    scott e: this should bring some zingers…..

    Working on all those unanswered questions, scott?

  15. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 25, 2013 at 10:03 am #

    It just appears that anti-birthers shy away from birther venues. Actually most of those blogs ban any dissenting voice. I rarely get anything through at Orly’s place, for instance.

    BirtherReport is an exception where I can post, even though the management once said that Obots weren’t going to be allowed there any more. I got this reply to one of my comments there:

    So but the good news is Doc Conspiracy looks pasty, flatulent, probably a congestive heart failure candidate, who will get, if he’s lucky, a few years of poorly-dosed digoxin and diuretics as he weakens and then he’ll get a send-home pill (or hint hint as leftwing PBS keeps pushing on its endless runs of “how to suicide” programs, use some party-balloon helium, take a big whiff, but tie your hands so you don’t autonomically jerk your mask away as you pass out and die and wind up in a coma–but Embalmacare will take care of that situation too by dehydration, it’s just ugly).

    I should point that there are vigorous discussions at the Amazon.com forums where there is no protective umbrella. Anti-birthers are perfectly comfortable debating on a neutral forum.

    scott e: look, you guys are the ones that put yourselves out in public, that’s fair game. every once in awhile some of the anti’s venture over to my playground (pf or usmess), but for the most part they stay here to enjoy the comfort/protection of your umbrella.

  16. avatar
    Rickey July 25, 2013 at 10:09 am #

    Helen:

    6.Logical fallacies
    If it is logical, how can it be a fallacy?

    Noun 1. logical fallacy – a fallacy in logical argumentation
    fallacy, false belief – a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning
    hysteron proteron – the logical fallacy of using as a true premise a proposition that is yet to be proved
    ignoratio elenchi – the logical fallacy of supposing that an argument proving an irrelevant point has proved the point at issue
    petitio, petitio principii – the logical fallacy of assuming the conclusion in the premises; begging the question
    post hoc, post hoc ergo propter hoc – the logical fallacy of believing that temporal succession implies a causal relation

  17. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater July 25, 2013 at 10:10 am #

    You know Scott your platitudes would have some meaning if they weren’t so hypocritical. You complain about how birthers have been treated yet avoid how birthers have treated those they call “obots”. I’ve seen you do the same crap over at PF and then run away to the mods when you get trounced. But hey anything to avoid having to answer direct questions right Scott?

    Most of us do venture outside this site to other venues. Most of the big birther sites ban anytime a comment contradicts them. As an example I pointed out the falsity of the Obama spent millions of dollars and hired 6 law firms on freerepublic. I was banned after one post. Obamareleaseyourrecords, I had my comments removed after 2 comments. Birther report I got a few in on their youtube site and was banned. Mark Gillar challenged me to find false statements in his youtube videos I was able to find pages worth of false statements in the first 20 minutes of his show. After a back and forth he banned me. Same thing with Rudy Davis, in fact I haven’t seen one birther site that actually allows free exchange of ideas.

  18. avatar
    Rickey July 25, 2013 at 10:11 am #

    Helen:

    9.Repeating rumors as true without checking them first
    How do you check a rumor that has no foundation

    That is precisely the point. When you hear a rumor, you should check to see if there is any factual foundation for it. If there is no foundation, you should not repeat it.

  19. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 25, 2013 at 10:17 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: BirtherReport is an exception where I can post, even though the management once said that Obots weren’t going to be allowed there any more. I

    They may be back to that. I posted a couple of questions that went through and then then they disappeared into moderation.

    Birthers react to questions like vampires do to sunlight.

  20. avatar
    Suranis July 25, 2013 at 10:25 am #

    LOL. Poor scott. He is so lonely now talking to himself on PF forum

    Scott, people engaged with you for the better part of a year on PF forum. The generally beat you over the head with facts and all thy gotr from you is the same lies over and over. So everyone eventually got sick and tired of you and stopped bothering talking to the clearly mentally ill. This resulted in you crowing about how you “scared off” all the Obots, and then that slowly stopped as you realized that no-one was talking to you. And seriously, no-one EVER goes to your mess of a website, I didn’t even see a forum the one time I looked at it, so don’t bother lying.

    And people on the PF forum, people who are not “Obots” called you mentally ill, and said that you were having a nervous breakdown on the forum a few months ago so I wouldn’t keep harping on that place as a bastion of real people who agree with you. Yes I can get the links if I feel like it. Its all in my email inbox. You also said i doesn’t matter that you have had no-one agreeing with you as that you count the page views as all the silent people who all agree with you.

    And now you are suddenly saying that its the Obots who never venture out of their echo chambers. What are you hoping for, that people will flock back to PF to prove you wrong? We aren’t making up phantom support that exists in our own head.

    And lets not forget your deceleration of War on fogbow. That was really sane.

    And the only people who left John Woodman’s forum were people who lied, couldn’t prove a damn thing they said and insulted people, like you, and who fled back to their birther Echo chambers. For example, remember Garret Peppard (or whatever his name was) trying desperately to argue that “several” always means 3, which was his last statement before vanishing?

    And the funny thing is, you are saying both that the “obots” don’t leave their echo chambers AND that they go to other forums to “wreck them” with their foul attributions and facts. Which is it, it cant be both.

    Oh and to ensure that you wont respond to me like you haven’t responded to anything I have written to you on this blog, I suppose because I just cut to the chase and call you a liar with proof so you resort to trying to make people forget that I said anything, remember WHISTLE-BLOWER WEDNESDAY? *dances*

    scott e: every once in awhile some of the anti’s venture over to my playground (pf or usmess), but for the most part they stay here to enjoy the comfort/protection of your umbrella.

  21. avatar
    Suranis July 25, 2013 at 10:28 am #

    Yeah I posted one time on Obamareleaseyourrecords. I used my Suranis nickname, just posting a link and an article refuting their line of the day and I had the comment deleted within an hour and replaced with an insulting pic of someones ass. They really value debate over there.

    I can offers lots of times I debated birthers on other websites as well. But all scott wants to do is belittle everyone. That’s my biggest problem with him really. He knows he is lying, but his hatred is so all pervasive he does not care. He is just as mentally ill as that poor woman who came on RC the other night. The proper response is just point out that he is lying. he has no interest in debate, he just wants to annoy and lie.

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater:
    You know Scott your platitudes would have some meaning if they weren’t so hypocritical.You complain about how birthers have been treated yet avoid how birthers have treated those they call “obots”.I’ve seen you do the same crap over at PF and then run away to the mods when you get trounced.But hey anything to avoid having to answer direct questions right Scott?

    Most of us do venture outside this site to other venues.Most of the big birther sites ban anytime a comment contradicts them.As an example I pointed out the falsity of the Obama spent millions of dollars and hired 6 law firms on freerepublic.I was banned after one post.Obamareleaseyourrecords, I had my comments removed after 2 comments.Birther report I got a few in on their youtube site and was banned.Mark Gillar challenged me to find false statements in his youtube videos I was able to find pages worth of false statements in the first 20 minutes of his show.After a back and forth he banned me.Same thing with Rudy Davis, in fact I haven’t seen one birther site that actually allows free exchange of ideas.

  22. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater July 25, 2013 at 10:31 am #

    Suranis: Oh and to ensure that you wont respond to me like you haven’t responded to anything I have written to you on this blog, I suppose because I just cut to the chase and call you a liar with proof so you resort to trying to make people forget that I said anything, remember WHISTLE-BLOWER WEDNESDAY? *dances*

    Suranis shame on you, you know the best way to get Scott not to respond to you is to end your post with a question.

  23. avatar
    Kiwiwriter July 25, 2013 at 10:39 am #

    scott e:

    look, you guys are the ones that put yourselves out in public, that’s fair game. every once in awhile some of the anti’s venture over to my playground (pf or usmess), but for the most part they stay here to enjoy the comfort/protection of your umbrella.

    The entire issue of Barack Obama’s birth certificate would not be in the public discourse if the “birthers” did not bring it up in the first place. You people started this.

    If you manifest insanity in public, expect the audience to berate and belittle you.

  24. avatar
    Rickey July 25, 2013 at 10:41 am #

    scott e: I’ve seen what seem to be nice people, driven away. that’s an obot trademark, I
    ve seen countless players ridiculed out of pf and usmess.

    so I don’t have much sympathy for you in that regard. when you step into the ring, expect to get hit, even if you have the home court advantage.

    I know nothing about Woodman’s forum, but if people don’t want to be ridiculed they should stop being ridiculous. How else do you respond to people who take an obvious April Fool’s joke and turn it into evidence that Obama attended Occidental College as a foreign student on a Fulbright scholarship? My impression is that birthers are “driven away” from here after their half-baked theories have been thoroughly discredited and they have no more to say.

    I have been on this forum for 4 1/2 years and I have yet to see a birther land a solid punch.

  25. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 25, 2013 at 10:51 am #

    Consider this:

    Someone at Orly’s blog posting under the name “e. scott” wrote yesterday:

    “Not only are these cities [Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans and Washington DC] currently run by Democrats, but they have been run by Democrats since they became cities. ”

    So I replied: “New Orleans was a city before there were any Democrats.”

    Based on what I’ve seen in the past, Orly will not approve that comment. So what’s my motivation for spending any time commenting on her blog?

    scott e: look, you guys are the ones that put yourselves out in public, that’s fair game. every once in awhile some of the anti’s venture over to my playground (pf or usmess), but for the most part they stay here to enjoy the comfort/protection of your umbrella.

  26. avatar
    Rickey July 25, 2013 at 10:52 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater:
    Obamareleaseyourrecords, I had my comments removed after 2 comments.

    I ventured over there a couple of years ago when birthers were claiming that they were taught in school that a natural born citizen had to have two citizen parents. I asked if anyone had found a textbook which says that a natural born citizen must have two citizen parents, and I quoted from a conservative home-schooling textbook which says that “natural born citizen” and “native born citizen” are one and the same.

    My post stayed up for about an hour, and then I was banned. Of course, birthers have yet to produce a single history textbook, law book, civics textbook, or even a syllabus which mentions the elusive two-citizen parent requirement.

  27. avatar
    bovril July 25, 2013 at 10:55 am #

    The only person who I recall really crapping all over at JW’s blog was the 2nd worst lawyer in the history of the world, Failio The Putz.

    He got short shrift from JW and everyone else, so, as is traditional with Birfoons, he ran away to his own Stalinist censored blog and crowed about how he’d “won”.

    Well, being Mario, he didn’t restrict it to “I WON !!!!” he played out about 15,000 words of utter drivel and nonsensical blather

  28. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 25, 2013 at 11:23 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Based on what I’ve seen in the past, Orly will not approve that comment. So what’s my motivation for spending any time commenting on her blog?

    On top of that there is the simple fact that the assertion is simply untrue. It took me all of 15 seconds to search for “Chicago mayors”, etc., and come up with a list for each city:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayor_of_Chicago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mayors_of_Detroit
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mayors_of_New_Orleans
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mayors_of_Washington,_D.C.

    Guess what? They’ve all had Republican mayors or Republicans in charge as in the case of the District of Columbia.

    So the question is what are we dealing with: Simple ignorance? Willful ignorance? Or a blatant lie?

    I report, you decide.

  29. avatar
    Jim July 25, 2013 at 11:27 am #

    scott e:
    I think you obots wrecked john woodman’s forum,

    John doesn’t seem to think so. But what’s more interesting is how the birthers are now pushing more and more people away from their sites. Discussions and debate are no longer allowed, only like-minded and Obama haters allowed. The ones, like you, who do venture out, are only left with limp accusations and silly questions that have nothing to do with eligibility. Here’s the simple truth Scott, if there was any sort of crime or fraud committed with the President’s records, they would have had to happen in 1961. How do we know, because of the newspaper announcements and the index records. So, HDOH, who really has no reason to lie, is telling the truth and has the President’s records and all your investigations into the records is just a waste of time and money. But, IF (and this is a VERY BIG IF) a crime was committed back in 1961, you do have a way to prove it. Anyway, if you birthers ever figure out what they really need to do (BWAHAHAHAHA) then maybe, just maybe, you can convince Congress. But, you will have to have some air-tight evidence, not some make-believe cop’s opinion. Scott, can you figure out what needs to be done?

  30. avatar
    Suranis July 25, 2013 at 11:35 am #

    For those wondering about the “Whistleblower wensday” thing, when these whistleplowers came forward annd said that Obama had done some awful things involving the day of BENGHHAZZZIIIIIII, Scott was crowing to everyone over on the political forum that the wendsday when these whistelbowers trestified before a congressional heading that this was finally when the whole chicago house of cards would come tumbling down and all the lies would be revealed. I calmly told him over and over that these whistle blowers were going to reveal sod all.

    So the Wednesday came, and it was as we remember a damp squid. One of them THOUGHT that if a fighter had flown high over the city, at night, all the mob would have run away, which was irrelevant anyway as there were no fighters available. And the deployment of a second seal team was called off at 6 in the morning when they would have arrived then the attacks were long over, and the first seal team had failed to affect things at all. Whoopee doo.

    And that night and from then on Scott conveniently forgot that he had ever said anything about the hearings, but he still insisted Obama was still corrupt as hell. So, to rub his face in it, I mockingly kept signing off with “WHISTLEBLOWER WEDNESDAY!!” and a gif of Christopher Eccleson as Doctor Who doing a little dance. And from that day to this Scott has never responded to it.

    I guess it didn’t prove Obama corruption after all. Naa, that would just indicate scott was full of goldfish waste and knows it, and we know that’s not it. *confused*

  31. avatar
    Majority Will July 25, 2013 at 11:40 am #

    CarlOrcas: On top of that there is the simple fact that the assertion is simply untrue. It took me all of 15 seconds to search for “Chicago mayors”, etc., and come up with a list for each city:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayor_of_Chicago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mayors_of_Detroit
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mayors_of_New_Orleans
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mayors_of_Washington,_D.C.

    Guess what? They’ve all had Republican mayors or Republicans in charge as in the case of the District of Columbia.

    So the question is what are we dealing with: Simple ignorance? Willful ignorance? Or a blatant lie?

    I report, you decide.

    I’m going with incompetent liar.

  32. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 25, 2013 at 11:53 am #

    Majority Will: I’m going with incompetent liar.

    I don’t think I can argue with that one.

  33. avatar
    Suranis July 25, 2013 at 12:08 pm #

    There’s also the inconvenient fact that Jefferson County in 2011 was the largest municipal bankruptcy till Detroit, and its deep in redder than red Alabama. Run with full Republican “fiscal responsibility” “balanced budget” etc policies and still wound up suddenly billions in the Red.

    CarlOrcas: On top of that there is the simple fact that the assertion is simply untrue. It took me all of 15 seconds to search for “Chicago mayors”, etc., and come up with a list for each city:

    Guess what? They’ve all had Republican mayors or Republicans in charge as in the case of the District of Columbia.

  34. avatar
    Kiwiwriter July 25, 2013 at 12:11 pm #

    Suranis:
    There’s also the inconvenient fact that Jefferson County in 2011 was the largest municipal bankruptcy till Detroit, and its deep in redder than red Alabama. Run with full Republican “fiscal responsibility” “balanced budget” etc policies and still wound up suddenly billions in the Red.

    Didn’t the extremely conservative Orange County, California, turn its finances over to a psychic, whose predictions led the county to bankruptcy?

  35. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 25, 2013 at 12:18 pm #

    In contrast to me who offered the 1000 word challenge. I’m trying to open things up. But the winning side would want to do that, wouldn’t they?

    Jim: John doesn’t seem to think so. But what’s more interesting is how the birthers are now pushing more and more people away from their sites. Discussions and debate are no longer allowed, only like-minded and Obama haters allowed

  36. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 25, 2013 at 12:32 pm #

    If you say anything nasty about birthers on a birther blog, that becomes the issue. They basically make an ad hominem response: What you say is worthless because your are insulting. Orly Taitz loves to play the victim and if you want to be sure to get your comment through moderation, be threatening to her.

    I will be the first to say that nothing whatever works to talk sense to a birther on a birther blog. It is a lose-lose proposition; however, trash talk gives them a very easy out. If you stick solely to the facts and talk respectfully, they have no choice but to try to refute the facts or what most do–delete your comment, or in some cases provoke them to outrageous trash talk themselves. Being nice infuriates the birthers. Being nasty enforces their stereotypes.

    I find it much more satisfying to have a sound comment deleted, than to have trash talk held up as a portrait of the Obots and their ways. That said, I lose my temper sometimes.

    Suranis: Yeah I posted one time on Obamareleaseyourrecords. I used my Suranis nickname, just posting a link and an article refuting their line of the day and I had the comment deleted within an hour and replaced with an insulting pic of someones ass. They really value debate over there.

  37. avatar
    scott e July 25, 2013 at 1:05 pm #

    Jim: John doesn’t seem to think so.But what’s more interesting is how the birthers are now pushing more and more people away from their sites.Discussions and debate are no longer allowed, only like-minded and Obama haters allowed.The ones, like you, who do venture out, are only left with limp accusations and silly questions that have nothing to do with eligibility.Here’s the simple truth Scott, if there was any sort of crime or fraud committed with the President’s records, they would have had to happen in 1961.How do we know, because of the newspaper announcements and the index records.So, HDOH, who really has no reason to lie, is telling the truth and has the President’s records and all your investigations into the records is just a waste of time and money.But, IF (and this is a VERY BIG IF) a crime was committed back in 1961, you do have a way to prove it.Anyway, if you birthers ever figure out what they really need to do (BWAHAHAHAHA) then maybe, just maybe, you can convince Congress.But, you will have to have some air-tight evidence, not some make-believe cop’s opinion.Scott, can you figure out what needs to be done?

    no, i’m not in the hierarchy, just a bystander with a dream… just like you. you’re right though the forums are a two way street, people guard their home plate advantage. boring as it is.

  38. avatar
    scott e July 25, 2013 at 1:09 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Consider this:

    Someone at Orly’s blog posting under the name “e. scott” wrote yesterday:

    “Not only are these cities [Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans and Washington DC] currently run by Democrats, but they have been run by Democrats since they became cities. ”

    So I replied: “New Orleans was a city before there were any Democrats.”

    Based on what I’ve seen in the past, Orly will not approve that comment. So what’s my motivation for spending any time commenting on her blog?

    it wasn’t me. you have to decide what’s right for you doc. you do a good job here. it’s not a level playing field, but that’s expected. I can’t think of one objective forum anywhere, can you ? that’s for both angles. povs

  39. avatar
    scott e July 25, 2013 at 1:12 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: The entire issue of Barack Obama’s birth certificate would not be in the public discourse if the “birthers” did not bring it up in the first place. You people started this.

    If you manifest insanity in public, expect the audience to berate and belittle you.

    “when you step into the ring expect to get hit” goes for me too.

  40. avatar
    US Citizen July 25, 2013 at 1:31 pm #

    There’s a few things I’m now starting to consider about this forum.
    Yes, I understand I have the option of leaving or saying nothing, but I’d appreciate hearing intelligent thoughts and replies on a few questions.

    Knowing that this is now a moot issue, that Obama is indeed president and his bona-fides are true, I wonder of the intent and motivation many members have here, myself included.
    I can understand the social aspect, the belonging to a fraternity of like-minded people, but more and more I’m having difficulty with what drives this forum at it’s core, especially now.
    Is this a domain of people that relish in always being right?
    We ARE right: Birtherism is a false belief system.
    Why the need to continually argue something settled?

    Some examples and thoughts:

    Doc has often expressed, if not kindly demanded, that calling of names is not to be tolerated.
    Yet, one of the last truly antithetic replies I saw a few weeks ago was from Doc himself.
    I don’t recall the exact wording, but it was your basic “you’re stupid, get out of here!” types of response. Exactly what he himself has expressed distaste in and requests his members not to practice.
    In a word (or perhaps a neologist abbreviation): WTF??

    Are these outbursts simply later regretted aberrations or the result of imagined indicators of failure?
    (ie: if we don’t convince a birther, we’ve lost.)

    To put it another way, why get frustrated over someone that repeatedly says their team won, when the scoreboard says otherwise?
    Why are we so obsessed with this that it creates the breaking of one’s own moral rules to respect others, their opinions and beliefs?
    As Doc ended one post he said “it really makes me angry.”
    I ask why? Why are we so concerned, if not obsessed about continually discussing a settled issue or trying to educate hardcore birthers?

    In many ways, I compare birtherism to religion.
    In fact, as the HS dropout with a GED that I am, I challenge the many more astute minds here with doctorates to provide an answer to the following questions:

    How is birtherism truly any different than religion?
    Is it moral of character to criticize those with a different religion or belief system?

    On one side we have us: collected, verified, often certified facts.
    Empirical evidence.
    We have facts that win polls, legal cases and elections.
    We’ve already won and history will reflect this.

    On the other side, reduced to the essentials: belief.
    Despite any and all facts and evidence, birthers believe.
    They have no desire to believe in truths, only their own beliefs.
    They’ll dismiss facts whether individual or in cross-supported aggregation as having any value.

    And with religion, the same undeniable parallels written above apply also.
    No evidence, contrary facts to many core tenets, better and more scientifically proven alternatives.
    Only belief and perhaps tradition remaining.
    I think it’s a bit early to consider any tradition of birtherism though, so am left with only belief.

    If anyone can locate any major flaws in this comparison, please tell me.
    And having said this, isn’t this forum now basically a challenge of religion?
    Perhaps one with a social component, but still one that criticizes other’s beliefs.

    I find this odd for many reasons, but perhaps mostly in that some of us “obots” are religious ourselves.
    For example, as much as I like Doc and appreciate the ungodly (no pun intended) work he’s put into this blog, he’s stated he’s a Christian.
    He arguably has no more… and perhaps less… facts to support his belief system than he does a birther’s.
    Yet we’d be quite tasked if we were to try to argue all the minutiae of his belief system.
    So if belief is eliminated, we’re left with the raw intent on why we’re here.
    To always be right?
    (isn’t knowing we’re right enough?)
    To make an authoritative reference for history and study?
    (if so, what is the need for an interactive forum?)
    To criticize those different and often of weaker minds than ourselves?
    (is this moral?)

    When I first found OCT, it seemed to be an odd mix of fear and togetherness.
    Some readers were surely motivated by fear that Obama wasn’t being honest or wouldn’t win the elections.
    Others may have come here for solace and confirmation.
    I had slight feelings of both, but they are no longer issues because facts have proven no need for them any longer.

    Now, like many of you probably, you’ve asked yourself why you come here any longer.
    The issue is proven.
    The man has been elected president twice, everything checks out and there’s nothing to be decided.
    Birther opinions, challenges and lawsuits are meaningless other than to serve as a sort of rerun we’ve already seen a thousand times.
    This would suggest we’re here for entertainment, but the moral aspect of deriving pleasure from bullying is what I now find worrisome.

    Sometimes this place can feel like we’re beating up on people with various ailments we ourselves don’t have (like the disabled) or like a game show where we have all the answers and then invite lesser-minded individuals in for a good beating.
    Low hanging fruit, stomping on ants… you get the idea… it’s easy to feel superior.
    But with facts reigning, are we now the adult analog of children bullying each other because they’re different or slow or believe in Santa Claus?
    Why are YOU still here?

  41. avatar
    sfjeff July 25, 2013 at 2:00 pm #

    US Citizen: Why are YOU still here?

    Generally I do not care what bizarre religions a person is a member of.

    Birthers though want to overthrow the President of the United States- this is nothing neutral like believing the tooth fairy or that black cats are bad luck.

    I confront Birthers for the same reason that I confront racists- not because I truly believe that they will change their minds, but because my sense of justice says confront those lies intended to be hurtful.

    Mostly though now its just a part time hobby. My wife tells me to go out and refute some more Birthers.

  42. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 25, 2013 at 2:06 pm #

    US Citizen: Why are YOU still here?

    I spent 30+ years in the news business and I know there are no unbiased human beings. We all come to any moment in time with a unique combination of experience and knowledge that form what we are…..for better or worse.

    What I learned as a journalist is that it is good to have opinions but it’s best if you test them frequently. Forty years ago that was a challenge because getting to some information was difficult and time consuming. Today it isn’t: Google has solved that problem for us and should forever remove the excuse of “Oh, I didn’t know that” from these sorts of discussions. Claims and assertions can be checked and tested in seconds.

    So what keeps me here? Habit. I have long been fascinated with conspiracies and people’s willingness to believe them…..from the benign to the bizarre…..no matter what.

    I find the people fascinating and their thought processes intriguing and that’s why I continue to engage them.

    What is most distressing is that with information available at their fingertips they are still willing to believe anything that appeals to them and either ignore or reject any information that might set them straight.

    That human trait has not changed in 50 years and I doubt it ever will.

  43. avatar
    Jim July 25, 2013 at 2:15 pm #

    US Citizen:
    Why are YOU still here?

    Watching the car wreck called birthers and waiting to see if they’re smart enough to get out of the burning vehicle or so intrenched in their bigotry they just sit there and burn…so far, they just sit there and burn. Pass the marshmallows.

  44. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 25, 2013 at 2:22 pm #

    scott e: it’s not a level playing field,

    Maybe if you dealt directly with the questions you are asked your ride here wouldn’t be so bumpy?

  45. avatar
    Arthur July 25, 2013 at 2:22 pm #

    Why am I still here? I don’t know . . . redirect virus?

  46. avatar
    Suranis July 25, 2013 at 2:35 pm #

    Orange county was a bit more complicated, but essentially what happened is that one mad was given all the power to make decisions with all the counties money, and for a whole he seemed to be earning fabulous money was toasted on wall street as a genius, and then he blew it all on derivatives trading.

    Now its very possible that the guy they trusted with their money ran to a Psychic to make his trading decisions. Its been a while since I read that book I have on the idiocy of the 90s. (Must read it again actually) But the issue was that one man had total control with no oversight. Because that’s regulation ya know.

    Kiwiwriter: Didn’t the extremely conservative Orange County, California, turn its finances over to a psychic, whose predictions led the county to bankruptcy?

  47. avatar
    scott e July 25, 2013 at 2:44 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Maybe if you dealt directly with the questions you are asked your ride here wouldn’t be so bumpy?

    you are probably too young to remember the 8 track player.

    I have, to no avail. you ask questions, I answer them, then you slip back into your old ways.
    give me your top best question right now, I will try to answer. that’s as direct as I may be.

  48. avatar
    Majority Will July 25, 2013 at 2:48 pm #

    “Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”

    “In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.”

    Martin Luther King, Jr.

  49. avatar
    scott e July 25, 2013 at 2:50 pm #

    Jim: Watching the car wreck called birthers and waiting to see if they’re smart enough to get out of the burning vehicle or so intrenched in their bigotry they just sit there and burn…so far, they just sit there and burn.Pass the marshmallows.

    see, we say the same exact thing about you. this site would be a little dull without, don’t you think ??

  50. avatar
    scott e July 25, 2013 at 2:52 pm #

    US Citizen:
    There’s a few things I’m now starting to consider about this forum.
    Yes, I understand I have the option of leaving or saying nothing, but I’d appreciate hearing intelligent thoughts and replies on a few questions.

    Knowing that this is now a moot issue, that Obama is indeed president and his bona-fides are true, I wonder of the intent and motivation many members have here, myself included.
    I can understand the social aspect, the belonging to a fraternity of like-minded people, but more and more I’m having difficulty with what drives this forum at it’s core, especially now.
    Is this a domain of people that relish in always being right?
    We ARE right: Birtherism is a false belief system.
    Why the need to continually argue something settled?

    Some examples and thoughts:

    Doc has often expressed, if not kindly demanded, that calling of names is not to be tolerated.
    Yet, one of the last truly antithetic replies I saw a few weeks ago was from Doc himself.
    I don’t recall the exact wording, but it was your basic “you’re stupid, get out of here!” types of response. Exactly what he himself has expressed distaste in and requests his members not to practice.
    In a word (or perhaps a neologist abbreviation): WTF??

    Are these outbursts simply later regretted aberrations or the result of imagined indicators of failure?
    (ie: if we don’t convince a birther, we’ve lost.)

    To put it another way, why get frustrated over someone that repeatedly says their team won, when the scoreboard says otherwise?
    Why are we so obsessed with this that it creates the breaking of one’s own moral rules to respect others, their opinions and beliefs?
    As Doc ended one post he said “it really makes me angry.”
    I ask why? Why are we so concerned, if not obsessed about continually discussing a settled issue or trying to educate hardcore birthers?

    In many ways, I compare birtherism to religion.
    In fact, as the HS dropout with a GED that I am, I challenge the many more astute minds here with doctorates to provide an answer to the following questions:

    How is birtherism truly any different than religion?
    Is it moral of character to criticize those with a different religion or belief system?

    On one side we have us: collected, verified, often certified facts.
    Empirical evidence.
    We have facts that win polls, legal cases and elections.
    We’ve already won and history will reflect this.

    On the other side, reduced to the essentials: belief.
    Despite any and all facts and evidence, birthers believe.
    They have no desire to believe in truths, only their own beliefs.
    They’ll dismiss facts whether individual or in cross-supported aggregation as having any value.

    And with religion, the same undeniable parallels written above apply also.
    No evidence, contrary facts to many core tenets, better and more scientifically proven alternatives.
    Only belief and perhaps tradition remaining.
    I think it’s a bit early to consider any tradition of birtherism though, so am left with only belief.

    If anyone can locate any major flaws in this comparison, please tell me.
    And having said this, isn’t this forum now basically a challenge of religion?
    Perhaps one with a social component, but still one that criticizes other’s beliefs.

    I find this odd for many reasons, but perhaps mostly in that some of us “obots” are religious ourselves.
    For example, as much as I like Doc and appreciate the ungodly (no pun intended) work he’s put into this blog, he’s stated he’s a Christian.
    He arguably has no more… and perhaps less… facts to support his belief system than he does a birther’s.
    Yet we’d be quite tasked if we were to try to argue all the minutiae of his belief system.
    So if belief is eliminated, we’re left with the raw intent on why we’re here.
    To always be right?
    (isn’t knowing we’re right enough?)
    To make an authoritative reference for history and study?
    (if so, what is the need for an interactive forum?)
    To criticize those different and often of weaker minds than ourselves?
    (is this moral?)

    When I first found OCT, it seemed to be an odd mix of fear and togetherness.
    Some readers were surely motivated by fear that Obama wasn’t being honest or wouldn’t win the elections.
    Others may have come here for solace and confirmation.
    I had slight feelings of both, but they are no longer issues because facts have proven no need for them any longer.

    Now, like many of you probably, you’ve asked yourself why you come here any longer.
    The issue is proven.
    The man has been elected president twice, everything checks out and there’s nothing to be decided.
    Birther opinions, challenges and lawsuits are meaningless other than to serve as a sort of rerun we’ve already seen a thousand times.
    This would suggest we’re here for entertainment, but the moral aspect of deriving pleasure from bullying is what I now find worrisome.

    Sometimes this place can feel like we’re beating up on people with various ailments we ourselves don’t have (like the disabled) or like a game show where we have all the answers and then invite lesser-minded individuals in for a good beating.
    Low hanging fruit, stomping on ants… you get the idea… it’s easy to feel superior.
    But with facts reigning, are we now the adult analog of children bullying each other because they’re different or slow or believe in Santa Claus?
    Why are YOU still here?

    can I put this on my website ? I like it, you should right a book, you write really well.
    we’ll have to fix the first word, but i’d like to post it.

  51. avatar
    Suranis July 25, 2013 at 3:18 pm #

    Well that would be one way of ensuring no-one ever sees it.

  52. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 25, 2013 at 3:31 pm #

    scott e: you are probably too young to remember the 8 track player.

    I have, to no avail. you ask questions, I answer them, then you slip back into your old ways.
    give me your top best question right now, I will try to answer. that’s as direct as I may be.

    scott, I remember vinyl records…….78, 33 1/3 and 45. Sheesh.

    I had a stereo 8 track in a new 77 Mercury Marquis.

    How old are you, scott?

    And, no, I’m not going to play your game. There are lots of questions on this board in the last few days that you can quickly find and answer.

  53. avatar
    Majority Will July 25, 2013 at 3:32 pm #

    Suranis:
    Well that would be one way of ensuring no-one ever sees it.

    Bazinga.

  54. avatar
    Jim July 25, 2013 at 4:04 pm #

    CarlOrcas:I had a stereo 8 track in a new 77 Mercury Marquis.

    69 Ford LTD that I purchased from my Grandfather. Installed the 8 track myself and wired 4 full-sized stereo speakers in the back seat…no one could sit in the back. I may even still have my Beach Boys, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Grand Funk Railroad and Richard Pryor 8 tracks in a box somewhere.

  55. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 25, 2013 at 4:17 pm #

    Jim: 69 Ford LTD that I purchased from my Grandfather.Installed the 8 track myself and wired 4 full-sized stereo speakers in the back seat…no one could sit in the back.I may even still have my Beach Boys, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Grand Funk Railroad and Richard Pryor 8 tracks in a box somewhere.

    I had a 66 Impala (always wanted a 58 two door but never got one) and redid the radio with one of those cheesy spring loaded reverb units plus a couple speakers back up in the rear window. I don’t think I ever had a tape player in that beast.

    I think the Merc was my second tape player. First, I think, was in a 72 Ford LTD.

  56. avatar
    scott e July 25, 2013 at 4:17 pm #

    Jim: 69 Ford LTD that I purchased from my Grandfather.Installed the 8 track myself and wired 4 full-sized stereo speakers in the back seat…no one could sit in the back.I may even still have my Beach Boys, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Grand Funk Railroad and Richard Pryor 8 tracks in a box somewhere.

    ’68 olds delta 88 convertable. one sweet ride. wish I had one now. same music though, plus Chicago, Santana, Uriah heep, mountain, starship (airplane). jeff beck, the who, the beet O’s

  57. avatar
    Helen July 25, 2013 at 4:32 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: The entire issue of Barack Obama’s birth certificate would not be in the public discourse if the “birthers” did not bring it up in the first place. You people started this.If you manifest insanity in public, expect the audience to berate and belittle you.

    How can the birthers bring up a subject that has not been discussed before, birthers being what you call people who disagree with the birth certificate.

    It was Hilary who brought up birth of McCain and Obama prior to the elections.

    Birthers were not in existence at that time

    So when was the “birthers’ announced to the world of the web!

  58. avatar
    Dave B. July 25, 2013 at 4:46 pm #

    Tell us more, Helen. I’d love to hear about Senator Clinton and this bringing up the births of Senators McCain and Obama prior to the elections. What, exactly, did she have to say about each, and when? Perhaps, for at least one of those two, you could find something in the records of the US Senate. What have you got?

    Helen: How can the birthers bring up a subject that has not been discussed before,birthers being what you call people who disagree with the birth certificate.

    It was Hilary who brought up birth of McCain and Obamaprior to the elections.

    Birthers were not in existence at that time

    So when was the “birthers’ announced to the world of the web!

  59. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater July 25, 2013 at 5:47 pm #

    scott e: you are probably too young to remember the 8 track player.

    I have, to no avail. you ask questions, I answer them, then you slip back into your old ways.
    give me your top best question right now, I will try to answer. that’s as direct as I may be.

    Except you haven’t answered them despite claiming you did. Amnesia is something that seems to pervade birtherism.

  60. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater July 25, 2013 at 5:48 pm #

    Helen: It was Hilary who brought up birth of McCain and Obama prior to the elections.

    This is false. Hillary did no such thing.

  61. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 25, 2013 at 5:51 pm #

    Of course that story about Hillary is just something birthers say among themselves because it’s convenient, not because they know it to be true. There was a claim by a minor Hollywood producer that she HEARD the Clintons say this, along with a fantastic story that they didn’t go public because Obama threatened to murder Chelsea. All a very convenient story for the birthers, but utterly implausible if you think about it. This story was told quite recently. I ridiculed this rumor in my article:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2013/06/silly-story-of-hillary-the-birther/

    Birthers, as best as anyone can determine, came from an anonymous comment at the right-wing Free Republic forum on March 1, 2008. The basic elements of the “born in Kenya” meme were there, but no reason to believe it. Since then birthers have been trying to find reasons to believe it.

    Helen: It was Hilary who brought up birth of McCain and Obama prior to the elections.

    Birthers were not in existence at that time

    So when was the “birthers’ announced to the world of the web!

  62. avatar
    gorefan July 25, 2013 at 6:01 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Of course that story about Hillary is just something birthers say among themselves because it’s convenient, not because they know it to be true.

    Ah, the memories

    http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/mccain/articles/2008/04/11/20080411mccainbirth0411.html

  63. avatar
    Jim July 25, 2013 at 6:46 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Of course that story about Hillary is just something birthers say among themselves because it’s convenient, not because they know it to be true.

    My all-time favorite goes all the way back to the beginning when the President released the short-form. WND was all over it and said everything was just fine. Then Taitz (or whoever) makes a big deal about it…and the gyrations that WND went through to try and say the opposite of what they said, SOMEONE had to pull a groin or have a couple of hernias trying to follow that logic!

  64. avatar
    Jim July 25, 2013 at 6:51 pm #

    Helen: It was Hilary who brought up birth of McCain and Obama prior to the elections.

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: Helen: It was Hilary who brought up birth of McCain and Obama prior to the elections.

    But, if there had been even the slightest hint of anything there, you can be darn certain Hillary would have used it. Same with McCain, but they didn’t even try very hard because they knew if something was there, Hillary would have found it. Even the birthers admit that the Clintons know how to find dirt, and how to use it.

  65. avatar
    aarrgghh July 25, 2013 at 7:44 pm #

    Jim: But, if there had been even the slightest hint of anything there, you can be darn certain Hillary would have used it.Same with McCain, but they didn’t even try very hard because they knew if something was there, Hillary would have found it. Even the birthers admit that the Clintons know how to find dirt, and how to use it.

    and if the clintons were as evil and power-hungry as wingnuts are wont to remind us, bill and hillary wouldn’t have let something as mundane as a threat to their daughter deter them from the brass ring. those two are in bed with international drugs-and-arms traffickers, while the obamas are just chicago street punks with two daughters of their own to lose. “yeah, make my day, kenya boy,” we’d imagine the birfer-universe hillary sneering. “joo f*ck with me, an’ joo f*ck yourselfs!”

    </scarface>

  66. avatar
    US Citizen July 25, 2013 at 8:05 pm #

    Just a thanks for those that participated in providing their own personal reasons for their continued interest in birtherism.
    I truly appreciate hearing views from others.

    As for me writing a book, I’ve been asked many times to do so for what I am an expert in. But I flunked English in every class I ever took and it takes a considerable effort to create the flow and organization even some posts require.
    It’s also a bit intimidating for someone like me who’s an academic failure to be among so many of you who have done so much more with their studies.

    Anyway, I’m still interested in what drives both birthers and obots given the current status of the presidency.
    I don’t believe that birtherism will take any major part in the mid-term elections either, so I’m baffled why they continue their efforts and why we continue to respond to them.

    Finally, I am also quite interested in people that believe the Earth is flat, etc.
    I just don’t participate in arguing because I feel that, like religion and birtherism, it’s very difficult to change someone’s beliefs and in this case, it’s settled law.
    “Habit” is a good answer. I can appreciate that.
    Being right or correcting individual believers at this stage of the game, I just don’t get.
    That’s why I asked.
    I meant no offense to anyone.
    I’m just trying to figure out what drives us now.
    Thank you.

  67. avatar
    Northland10 July 25, 2013 at 8:23 pm #

    Helen: It was Hilary who brought up birth of McCain and Obamaprior to the elections.

    Birthers were not in existence at that time

    So when was the “birthers’ announced to the world of the web!

    You could start here:

    http://barackryphal.blogspot.com/2011/06/secret-origin-of-birthers.html

  68. avatar
    Monkey Boy July 25, 2013 at 11:20 pm #

    scott e: give me your top best question right now, I will try to answer. that’s as direct as I may be

    In another thread, you stated that you are glad that Saddam Hussein “is gone” beause he used chemical weapons to put down a Kurdish revolt. Winston Churchill okayed the use of chemical weapons–including poison gas–to put down a revolt of Kurdish rebels. Are you glad that he is gone?

  69. avatar
    Monkey Boy July 25, 2013 at 11:32 pm #

    Monkey Boy: In another thread, you stated that you are glad that Saddam Hussein “is gone” beause he used chemical weapons to put down a Kurdish revolt.Winston Churchill okayed the use of chemical weapons–including poison gas–to put down a revolt of Kurdish rebels. Are you glad that he is gone?

    Why do I have the impression that scott will altogether ignore the question, or try to deflect it with a non sequitur.

  70. avatar
    aarrgghh July 26, 2013 at 1:25 am #

    US Citizen: I’m just trying to figure out what drives us now.

    for my part i’m simply curious about how much gas is left in the birfer zeppelin. at some point they’ll finally run aground, stranded for the rest of time on a desert island in wikipedia and the joke site conservapedia. til then, they have mike zullo’s sword of damocles poised to fall any moment in “the next three to six months” and their case in alabama before judge moore.

    perhaps in the face of utter failure birfers’ll feel the need to convince us of their relevance in campaign 2016 by pursuing candidates like rubio or jindal if they throw their hats in. one freeper is certainly counting on it:

    txhurl: “How bout the RATS bring their case against Cruz, opening themselves up to discovery on zero’s NBC status? Oh, wait, we don’t have standing, and RATS ain’t gonna have standing.

    I HOPE they get standing. Then WE get standing.

    Bring it, RATS.”

    ——-

    txhurl: “I do not jest. Anyone who litigates against Cruz must cite relevant case law that will be turned against zero instantly once any judge accepts it. Precedence.

    Checkmate, sucka.”

    … as if anyone suing gop contenders will be democrats. not bloody likely.

    also too, perhaps in jan 2016 birfers will launch new crops of lawsuits against obama once he becomes a private citizen. they’ll probably believe him vulnerable and the pursuit worthwhile even if it amounts only an asterisk next to his name in the history books.

  71. avatar
    Kiwiwriter July 26, 2013 at 11:14 am #

    US Citizen:
    Just a thanks for those that participated in providing their own personal reasons for their continued interest in birtherism.
    I truly appreciate hearing views from others.

    As for me writing a book, I’ve been asked many times to do so for what I am an expert in. But I flunked English in every class I ever took and it takes a considerable effort to create the flow and organization even some posts require.
    It’s also a bit intimidating for someone like me who’s an academic failure to be among so many of you who have done so much more with their studies.

    Anyway, I’m still interested in what drives both birthers and obots given the current status of the presidency.
    I don’t believe that birtherism will take any major part in the mid-term elections either, so I’m baffled why they continue their efforts and why we continue to respond to them.

    Finally, I am also quite interested in people that believe the Earth is flat, etc.
    I just don’t participate in arguing because I feel that, like religion and birtherism, it’s very difficult to change someone’s beliefs and in this case, it’s settled law.
    “Habit” is a good answer. I can appreciate that.
    Being right or correcting individual believers at this stage of the game, I just don’t get.
    That’s why I asked.
    I meant no offense to anyone.
    I’m just trying to figure out what drives us now.
    Thank you.

    What drives me as an obot is my commitment to honor, duty, and truth. I’ve spent the last 22 years in public service, and I have a strong personal, professional, and moral commitment to it.

    It offends me to see people deliberately peddling lies for the purposes of personal financial benefit and to gain undeserved public attention. It concerns me that these people force my colleagues in public service to waste my tax dollars and their valuable time on this arrant nonsense, when we have real, critical issues to address. And it frightens me when hear the extremely corrosive and seditionist and violent rhetoric, calling for revolution and murder.

    While I don’t think the leaders of the birther movement are actually going to act on their calls for violence and revolution, I am concerned that even less-balanced people may be inspired by them to commit violent acts. We have seen this on many occasions…so-called “lone wolves” who act out their inner torments by venting them on the outside world with extreme prejudice.

    I am also concerned with people on the fence, people who are uneducated, people who are at risk. When birther leaders spout their drivel, even the debunked drivel, they are hoping primarily to attract new supporters and new cash streams. I have seen this on other websites, like Southern Poverty Law Center, where neo-Nazis and junior Fascists spout and re-spout their rubbish, even though it has been debunked before, hoping to (and on occasion, succeeding) in attracting new supporters.

    So we have these toxic combinations that appall me…the spread of lies, the raw cynicism, the money-grubbing, the fleecing of the unwary, the fueling of the dangerous. These are all issues that concern me.

    The other thing about studying these folks is wondering what makes them tick, and how they live their lives. How can people, born with the same reasoning skills as the rest of us, can so easily swallow this drivel (for the true believers) and how do they keep their operations going in the face of so much ridicule, failure, and hostility?

    It interests me to read the accounts of neo-Nazis who emerge from their life of junior Fascism…they all talk about how, during their “captivity,” they lived lives of utter isolation from the world, scorned and ignored by their old friends and family, marginalized, and surrounded by criminals, con men, pedophiles, schizophrenics, and paranoid conspiracists, with every aspect of their lives — even the movies they could watch — defined by the “glorious leader” of their little group, which usually disintegrated under legal pressure or internal fractures. They leave behind their swastika-besotted life to realize that it was a tragic waste and a sea of lies.

    So these human issues fascinate me at the same time.

    And finally, some of their antics and failures are just so bloody funny…watching them get shot down in court…seeing their deadlines for disaster come and go without Armageddon…seeing their massive “rallies” involve only three people: the tiger, the cameraman, and the sound man. It’s like watching a train wreck.

  72. avatar
    Yoda July 26, 2013 at 4:12 pm #

    US Citizen:
    Just a thanks for those that participated in providing their own personal reasons for their continued interest in birtherism.
    I truly appreciate hearing views from others.

    As for me writing a book, I’ve been asked many times to do so for what I am an expert in. But I flunked English in every class I ever took and it takes a considerable effort to create the flow and organization even some posts require.
    It’s also a bit intimidating for someone like me who’s an academic failure to be among so many of you who have done so much more with their studies.

    Anyway, I’m still interested in what drives both birthers and obots given the current status of the presidency.
    I don’t believe that birtherism will take any major part in the mid-term elections either, so I’m baffled why they continue their efforts and why we continue to respond to them.

    Finally, I am also quite interested in people that believe the Earth is flat, etc.
    I just don’t participate in arguing because I feel that, like religion and birtherism, it’s very difficult to change someone’s beliefs and in this case, it’s settled law.
    “Habit” is a good answer. I can appreciate that.
    Being right or correcting individual believers at this stage of the game, I just don’t get.
    That’s why I asked.
    I meant no offense to anyone.
    I’m just trying to figure out what drives us now.
    Thank you.

    When I first got involved in debunking birtherism I did not believe that it would last long. To me, anyway, the case law surrounding the 2 citizen parent theory very clearly showed that Vattel’s definition has been rejected by every court that looked at it. I did not think that they were any possible way that people would still be arguing this issue 2,3, 5 years later.

    As to the other birther theories, at first I was amused. In particular, I found Orly’s antic’s hysterical, as do many of us. One of the arguments that I have put forward was that with all the brilliant legal minds available, if there was any truth to birtherism that there was no way that Orly would be the face of the movement. I thought that alone should have been enough to make a rational mind realize the folly of their arguments. How naive I was. I never, in a million years, dreamed that such ridiculous things would be held on to so tightly by some people. To be fair, I had never really encountered conspiracy theorists on a personal level. And while I found, and still find a great deal of amusement in their collective irrationality, I have to say that this is something that really has me angry and disgusted at this point.

    Until about a year ago, I started to become bored with birtherism. Having the same discussions over and over again, day after day, week after week, in virtually the same pattern with new people made this aspect of my life seem a lot like Ground Hog day. I was just about to get out of it until the CCP “investigation” heated up.

    Nothing in birtherism has made me angrier or more disgusted than this fake cop and his phony pastor sidekick running around the country lying their collective asses off to anyone who anyone who will listen. It is fair to say that they repulse me.

    I will continue to be a birther debunker until those two idiots are done and/or in prison where they belong.

  73. avatar
    Yoda July 26, 2013 at 4:17 pm #

    CarlOrcas: I spent 30+ years in the news business and I know there are no unbiased human beings. We all come to any moment in time with a unique combination of experience and knowledge that form what we are…..for better or worse.

    What I learned as a journalist is that it is good to have opinions but it’s best if you test them frequently. Forty years ago that was a challenge because getting to some information was difficult and time consuming. Today it isn’t: Google has solved that problem for us and should forever remove the excuse of “Oh, I didn’t know that” from these sorts of discussions. Claims and assertions can be checked and tested in seconds.

    Did you ever see the movie “Dogma”? One of my favorite movies and, in my opinion, one of the most intelligent scripts ever written. There is a scene were Christ Rock, in his role as the Disciple “Rufus”, is talking about beliefs. He said that God never intended religion to be a belief system, but rather a system of ideas because ideas can be changed, but once something becomes a belief it is almost impossible to change a person’s mind.

    I was recently listening to RC’s show and one of the callers compared to birthers to fundamentalist Christians and it reminded me of that scene. You will never be able to change the mind of birthers because it has been a entire belief system unto itself.

  74. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 26, 2013 at 4:59 pm #

    Yoda: You will never be able to change the mind of birthers because it has been a entire belief system unto itself.

    That is absolutely correct.

  75. avatar
    US Citizen July 27, 2013 at 4:40 am #

    So I guess many of us do fear birtherism, find the folly repeatedly humorous and feel a need to correct them.
    I expected such.
    But I’m still torn that we’re all of better minds than they, know they’re a minority, yet still relish the aspects of being right and correcting them.
    With that said, I find that those fearful of birtherism haven’t really crunched the numbers of how few and powerless they really are.

    So despite yet another mole visiting and the desire to whack him or her ASAP, I am still on the fence as to how much time we’re wasting on a moot point. This is bolstered by the fact that once facts are provided, most run away and never post again.
    We are left not even knowing if we made them change their minds usually.

    I guess we all have the right to use our time as we see fit, but I also consider what good we could be doing if we weren’t spending so much time trying to prove them wrong.

    If I was the god I don’t believe in anyway, I would be dismayed that such great and talented minds here aren’t more active and effective in other issues such as human rights, health issues, unfair laws and such.
    It seems like a waste more than ever after that scary black guy was elected twice.
    Just my two cents, but I regret we’re not using our skills and time more effectively elsewhere.
    However I cannot hide my longtime hopes to see Orly disbarred or sheriff Joe and his pony pal Zullo indicted.
    Perhaps I’m stuck in suspense mode: I know what should be done, I know what’s morally right, but I remain bewildered how these same delusional people all make more money than myself and are still peddling snake oil.
    That’s the only extent of my anger.
    I’ve otherwise derived enough pleasure seeing them lose time after time.

  76. avatar
    aarrgghh July 27, 2013 at 6:23 am #

    US Citizen: I guess we all have the right to use our time as we see fit, but I also consider what good we could be doing if we weren’t spending so much time trying to prove them wrong.

    does it also concern you how much time the local pool league spends playing pool? how much time the chess club plays chess? the zumba class doing zumba? do you attend book readings to tell people they should stop reading books?

    this is a self-selected group pursuing a hobby and presumably doing more important stuff elsewhere. if you’re feeling guilty about the time you spend here, maybe you don’t have enough important things on your plate.

  77. avatar
    bovril July 27, 2013 at 7:10 am #

    My views on Birthers and Birferism has not changed since before these posts

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/11/playing-dress-up/#comment-226294

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2010/06/internet-evangelist-offers-10000-for-long-form/#comment-53212

    For those who have perused my posts over the years it is very apparent what my feelings around Birfoons are.

    Hell I have shown (in my own oh so humble way…

    disease and other parasites as well as the cult like characteristics they exhibit.

    IMO Birthers are vermin, a pustule on the rear of humanity, funadamentally bigotted, generally racist, seditious, anti-constitutional and with the intellectual heft of slime mould.

    If one was on fire I might refrain from throwing a bit of fuel on the fire but I wouldn’t piss on them.

    I loathe birthers and the hatred they expouse and my views haven’t changed since this post on this very site 2.5 years ago..

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2010/06/internet-evangelist-offers-10000-for-long-form/#comment-53212

    I will never forget the stench of an open grave of the massacred, killed by people who labelled their previous neighbours as “The Other” .

  78. avatar
    scott e July 27, 2013 at 9:02 am #

    Monkey Boy: In another thread, you stated that you are glad that Saddam Hussein “is gone” beause he used chemical weapons to put down a Kurdish revolt.Winston Churchill okayed the use of chemical weapons–including poison gas–to put down a revolt of Kurdish rebels. Are you glad that he is gone?

    I am, but not just for that reason. but I don’t think doc will allow this discussion here. [Correct. Doc.]

    i’m also supportive that his execution was on youtube.

    I think the use of poison gas has become more symbolic, as it’s potential as wmd. it’s horrifying that Churchill used it as well.

  79. avatar
    US Citizen July 28, 2013 at 4:10 pm #

    if you’re feeling guilty about the time you spend here, maybe you don’t have enough important things on your plate.

    I asked for intelligent replies, not defensive “blame the messenger” type quips.
    The truth is, I have non-stop requests for work. Constant and unending.
    But I’m disabled and can’t do the work any longer.
    Perhaps empathy is not your strong point. So be it.
    I just find that so many bright people arguing over something already decided is ridiculous or just serving the mean side of personalities.
    Do you dance in front of cripples too?

  80. avatar
    aarrgghh July 28, 2013 at 11:40 pm #

    US Citizen: I asked for intelligent replies, not defensive “blame the messenger” type quips.
    The truth is, I have non-stop requests for work. Constant and unending.
    But I’m disabled and can’t do the work any longer.
    Perhaps empathy is not your strong point. So be it.
    I just find that so many bright people arguing over something already decided is ridiculous or just serving the mean side of personalities.
    Do you dance in front of cripples too?

    glad to hear you’re still in demand and sorry about your inability to meet it but your comments have entered into textbook concern troll territory. apparently, you haven’t noticed how self-righteous and repetitive you sound.

    everyone here already knows they could always find something more important to do. but no one can spend every waking moment saving the world — that way lies madness. so some folks watch tv, others join clubs. some folks, at least some of the time, come here. it’s silly to criticize people for their hobbies, especially one which actually appears to be doing some good beyond its echo chamber. you’re on a fool’s errand if you think you can get the chess club to stop playing chess. the answer of course is to start your own club.

    july 2012:

    “it is perhaps the most common offense committed on the interwebs: demanding that a forum or blog devoted to a particular subject address one’s own off-topic pet issues.

    it’s like admonishing the chess club for playing chess instead of checkers. one’s not likely to find agreement but i suspect that’s not what the offender’s looking for.”

  81. avatar
    Lupin July 29, 2013 at 3:27 am #

    Personally, I find the repeated and often purposeful misquoting/misuse of Vattel’s extremely annoying (as I’m sure has become clear to regular posters here), in the same fashion as, say, some of you here might find a bunch of French lunatics misquoting Thomas Jefferson to bolster an imbecilistic neonazi cause more than irritating.

    In fact, I know of no such misuse/misquote of respected American scholars by European lunatics. The so-called “Vattelists” seem to be a unique US phenomenon.

    I find the birthers’ refusal to acknowledge the State of HI’s authority when it comes to certifying information both puzzling and astonishing.

  82. avatar
    Suranis July 29, 2013 at 4:07 am #

    The reason for this is best illustrated by a scene from the movie “Liar Liar”

    Fletcher: Your honor, I object!

    Judge Stevens: And why is that, Mr. Reede?

    Fletcher: It’s devastating to my case!

    Judge Stevens: Overruled.

    Fletcher: Good call!

    Lupin:

    I find the birthers’ refusal to acknowledge the State of HI’s authority when it comes to certifying information both puzzling and astonishing.

  83. avatar
    The Magic M July 29, 2013 at 4:25 am #

    Lupin: In fact, I know of no such misuse/misquote of respected American scholars by European lunatics.

    German Neo-Nazis love to claim “democracy” comes from a Greek expression meaning “scum rule” (instead of “people’s rule”). Not quite a misquote, but in the same ballpark as the Vattelists (deliberate mistranslation).

  84. avatar
    The Magic M July 29, 2013 at 4:29 am #

    aarrgghh: perhaps in jan 2017 birfers will launch new crops of lawsuits against obama once he becomes a private citizen.

    FIFY.

    I can imagine it already: “I bought Obama’s book on his presidency, and it’s all lies, so I’ve been defrauded and have standing! Discovery! ZOMG I WIN!”

  85. avatar
    Keith July 29, 2013 at 5:21 am #

    Lupin: in the same fashion as, say, some of you here might find a bunch of French lunatics misquoting Thomas Jefferson to bolster an imbecilistic neonazi cause more than irritating.

    In fact, I know of no such misuse/misquote of respected American scholars by European lunatics. The so-called “Vattelists” seem to be a unique US phenomenon.

    Actually, Thomas Jefferson has been debased by many many fraudsters making up shit that he didn’t say and attributing it to him.

    A few fake Jefferson quotes from the Monticello Spurious Quotation ‘register’:

    “All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.” (Earliest known appearence in print 2005)

    “Democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of the people may take away the rights of the other 49%.” (2004) (This is my favorite piece of bullshit fake Jeffersonianism. It was actually penned by Ken Schooland in a children’s economics primer where he falsely attributed it to Jefferson to lend credence to his propaganda. Schooland appears to be a anarchist economist of the Ayn Rand school).

    Every man has two countries – his own and France (Henri de Bornier’s play, La Fille de Roland (1875), in which Charlemagne utters the line, “Tout homme a deux pays, le sien et puis la France.”). Incorrect attribution to Jefferson evolved since.

  86. avatar
    Lupin July 29, 2013 at 11:39 am #

    Keith: Actually, Thomas Jefferson has been debased by many many fraudsters making up shit that he didn’t say and attributing it to him.

    All excellent examples, although I’d argue that some of the fake Jefferson quotes don’t quite equal the body of phony law of the “two parents citizens” erected by Donofrio and the Meretricious one, if you see what I mean.

    (The one about mob rule, however, comes quite close.)

    The egregious mistranslation of “democracy” to justify fascism quoted by Magic M above seems closer in both error content and loathsome purposes.

    Also, I didn’t know the famous de Bornier quote (famous in France, at any rate) was mistakenly attributed to Jefferson in the US. Very interesting.

    Still, the Jefferson site quotes the following excerpt from Jefferson’s Autobiography:

    “So ask the travelled inhabitant of any nation, In what country on earth would you rather live?&—Certainly in my own, where are all my friends, my relations, and the earliest & sweetest affections and recollections of my life. Which would be your second choice? France.”

    🙂

  87. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG July 29, 2013 at 12:18 pm #

    On a different topic, Doc. Have you ever considered doing an article about the different words and phrases birthers tend to sling as insults?

    To me, calling someone gay, Muslim, Communist, etc. as means of an insult is akin to going up to someone and calling them a folding chair, or insisting that they like turtleneck sweaters. Aside from baffling the person for a few moments, it isn’t going to get much of a response out of them.