Main Menu

The occasional open thread: No Whining! edition

Place your Obama conspiracy comments not related to the current articles here. No Whining!

This thread will close in two weeks.

NoWhining

416 Responses to The occasional open thread: No Whining! edition

  1. avatar
    Tomtech October 16, 2013 at 1:21 am #

    I schooled my nephew, a Houston area Democrat, on Ted Cruz’s origin story and he took to calling him “Red Cruz”.

  2. avatar
    Lupin October 16, 2013 at 2:54 am #

    I tend to think of USA 1.0 ending with the Civil War, and USA 2.0 with the Great Depression. I think we’re watching in semi-slow motion the end of USA 3.0 with the GOP self-destructing. Interesting times, indeed.

  3. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 16, 2013 at 2:55 am #

    I like calling him Rafael. It seems to make a lot of the RWNJs squirm.

    Tomtech:
    I schooled my nephew, a Houston area Democrat, on Ted Cruz’s origin story and he took to calling him “Red Cruz”.

  4. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 16, 2013 at 7:38 am #

    At some point, I need to look into Lucas Smith’s latest article. It claims that Kenyan statistical reports contradict US statistical reports regarding travel of Americans to Kenya in 1961.

  5. avatar
    The European October 16, 2013 at 7:56 am #

    Well, you ‘mericans have suffered a government shutdown and you will suffer in about 16 hours a “debt ceiling crash”.

    Let me make an educated guess:

    this afternoon President Obama will pull the emergency brake and issue an executive order. The GPO will explode. BHO will be impeached. The Senate – if clever enough – will drag this out until next autumn. The GOP will be crushed in the midterm elections.

  6. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 16, 2013 at 8:09 am #

    No Whiners, eh? I guess that means John can’t post here. 😉

  7. avatar
    The European October 16, 2013 at 8:46 am #

    It’s getting better every minute:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-16/senate-leaders-resume-fiscal-talks-as-house-scraps-vote.html

    /quote

    Senator Lindsey Graham, a South Carolina Republican who is close to Boehner and spoke to him earlier yesterday, said he was concerned that the speaker could become a “victim” of a failed Republican strategy to use a government shutdown as leverage to try to force changes to the health-care law.

    Graham also said he is “getting to the point of disgust” with Democrats, including Reid, for refusing to help Republicans extricate themselves from an impossible negotiating position.

    “Instead of trying to help us find a way out of a bad spot — we won’t be the last political party to overplay our hand, it may happen one day on the Democratic watch,” he said. “And if it did, would Republicans, for the good of the country, kind of give a little?” Graham said, adding that Republicans went “too far” and “screwed up.”

    /endquote

  8. avatar
    Reality Check October 16, 2013 at 9:06 am #

    “Instead of trying to help us find a way out of a bad spot — we won’t be the last political party to overplay our hand, it may happen one day on the Democratic watch,” he said. “And if it did, would Republicans, for the good of the country, kind of give a little?” Graham said, adding that Republicans went “too far” and “screwed up.”

    The hubris of that statement is breathtaking.

  9. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater October 16, 2013 at 9:17 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: At some point, I need to look into Lucas Smith’s latest article. It claims that Kenyan statistical reports contradict US statistical reports regarding travel of Americans to Kenya in 1961.

    Not neccessarily looking at his so called evidence it is for all of East Africa not just kenya and it doesn’t delineate between the individual countries.

  10. avatar
    The Magic M October 16, 2013 at 9:23 am #

    The European: this afternoon President Obama will pull the emergency brake and issue an executive order. The GPO will explode. BHO will be impeached.

    You mean the “Constitutional option” that Bill Clinton favours? Who knows. At least it would show Obama puts the interests of the country ahead of “let it go down the drain, at least the other side will take the blame” (aka the Republican Roulette).

    My bet is Boehner will bring a last-minute vote to the House floor on some pseudo-compromise that will end up giving the GOP nearly nothing, the RWNJ’s will explode and whine about “the takeover has been accomplished”.

  11. avatar
    john October 16, 2013 at 9:49 am #

    The House GOP should reject the Senate Plan if it does not include any bending of ObamaCare. If the USA DEFAULTS, then so be it.

  12. avatar
    john October 16, 2013 at 9:53 am #

    Just remember the House GOP can always say that Harry Reid and Obama have failed to come together in the 11th hour. I blame the government shutdown on everyone but I put the most cupability or blame on President Obama. Obama has been sadistic throughout this whole government shutdown and should be impeached on denying Veterans access to their memorials.

  13. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 16, 2013 at 11:02 am #

    Reality Check: The hubris of that statement is breathtaking.

    Mind boggling. Absolute insanity.

  14. avatar
    Thomas Brown October 16, 2013 at 11:14 am #

    No whining? Awww, maaaannnn…. no fair! You never let us have ANY fun! [/whine]

  15. avatar
    Curious George October 16, 2013 at 11:20 am #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: No Whiners, eh? I guess that means John can’t post here.

    What a relief. I really get tired of trying to decode what he writes. I always have to look for my Mike Zullo decoder ring which doesn’t work too well. 🙁

  16. avatar
    Arthur October 16, 2013 at 11:55 am #

    john: The House GOP should reject the Senate Plan if it does not include any bending of ObamaCare. If the USA DEFAULTS, then so be it.

    You are such an ignorant Tea Party turdblossom.

  17. avatar
    Steve October 16, 2013 at 12:02 pm #

    john: Just remember the House GOP can always say that Harry Reid and Obama have failed to come together in the 11th hour. I blame the government shutdown on everyone but I put the most cupability or blame on President Obama. Obama has been sadistic throughout this whole government shutdown and should be impeached on denying Veterans access to their memorials.

    Get over yourself.

  18. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 16, 2013 at 12:20 pm #

    john:
    The House GOP should reject the Senate Plan if it does not include any bending of ObamaCare.If the USA DEFAULTS, then so be it.

    I’m not the first to ask this question but here it is for you: You appear to hate Obamacare more than you love America. Why?

  19. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 16, 2013 at 12:26 pm #

    john: I blame the government shutdown on everyone but I put the most cupability or blame on President Obama. Obama has been sadistic throughout this whole government shutdown and should be impeached on denying Veterans access to their memorials.

    Your rhetorical cup(ability) overfloweth with nonsense.

  20. avatar
    Arthur October 16, 2013 at 12:35 pm #

    john: Just remember the House GOP can always say that Harry Reid and Obama have failed to come together in the 11th hour.

    Oh, you poor deluded bagger. The jig is up: “BOW . . .IT’S A DEAL… House To Pass… CRUZ CAVES… IT’S OVER… ” http://www.huffingtonpost.com/

  21. avatar
    john October 16, 2013 at 12:49 pm #

    Personally, this is the 11th Hour and the GOP House should stick by their guns. They should say no to Senate Bill unless is has ObamaCare Provisions in it. If the GOP gives in, they will destroy themselves. If the GOP is going to destroy themselves.

  22. avatar
    john October 16, 2013 at 12:51 pm #

    This move would force the Senate to start all over again. The GOP House needs to make it clear. They hold the Power of Purse and no bill will be accepted unless it has ObamaCare Provision in it. The GOP House is willing to negotiate but ObamaCare Provisions stand. But, it looks like the GOP is craving. Bad Bad move.

  23. avatar
    James M October 16, 2013 at 12:59 pm #

    john:
    The House GOP should reject the Senate Plan if it does not include any bending of ObamaCare.If the USA DEFAULTS, then so be it.

    I am waiting for someone who has a background in Public Health legislation, which precedes the ACA (Public Law 111-148), who can identify one or more specific clauses in the legislative text of the ACA, clearly state reasonable objections to this text, and propose amended language which would correct the law in such a way as to meet the objectors approval.

    I’ve been asking for this since before the ACA was passed, to be met only with silence or disinformation.

    My conclusion is that the opposition does not in fact object to the ACA in any material sense, but that the objection is to the provenance of the law and to the governing party that passed it. I am unable to entertain any argument based on anything except the legislative text of the law.

    I would accept an argument on the language of the Act itself, or any rule in the Federal Register or CFR which follows from authority derived from the Act. I would also be engaged by an argument directed toward any element of the corpus of Public Health legislation or jurisprudence as cited in the ACA, because there can certainly be raised legitimate objections to the laws from which the ACA derives its legislative authority.

    For years, I have been wholly unsuccessful in engaging a single opponent of “Obamacare” who is willing or able to form a rational and specific argument against it, let alone who will propose amended language to alter the law toward their satisfaction.

    On October 1, I ended my quest, satisfied that there is indeed no genuine objection to the ACA.

  24. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 16, 2013 at 1:03 pm #

    Just a reminder of the site disclaimer:

    As a condition for use of this web site, the reader holds Obama Conspiracy Theories harmless and free of liability for any personal injury or damage to computer equipment related to use of the site including, but limited to, damage to keyboards from spitting coffee on them, spraying beverages on computer monitors, blowing hot liquid from the nose, injury from banging heads against a wall or furniture, choking from the inability to stop laughing or falling out of a chair. Caution should be exercised when viewing this web site within 1,000 yards of an irony meter not compliant with:

    MIL-STD 188-125-1 HEMP Hardening (Fixed Facilities)
    MIL-STD 188-125-2 HEMP Hardening (Transportable Systems)

  25. avatar
    john October 16, 2013 at 1:06 pm #

    When it all said and down, it doesn’t look for the GOP. First the GOP didn’t offer the Dems a carrot for the bending of ObamaCare. Second, the GOP House holds the Power of the Purse and in my opinion didn’t stick to that power good enough. John Boehner should have said from the beginning that the Government will stay shut down until the senate and Obama bends on ObamaCare and stay firm on that. in any event, Throughout this ordeal I have to agree with Gallup that Obama is the antichrist. Obama is sadistic and takes pleasure punishing the American People. Obama hates the military with passion which is why he has lashed strongly against our Vets by closing their memorials and denying them benefits. Obama then just kicks his feet back and watches the American People suffer. The only people Obama really cares about are his illegal alien supporters, convicted felons and terrorists and welfare people.

  26. avatar
    Kiwiwriter October 16, 2013 at 1:09 pm #

    john:
    .Obama has been sadistic throughout this whole government shutdown and should be impeached on denying Veterans access to their memorials.

    How on earth is closing a memorial an impeachable offense? I’d like to hear the legal justification on this one.

    Please do tell me…we’ve got all decade.

  27. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 16, 2013 at 1:10 pm #

    It’s not a matter of overplaying their hand. They tried dozens of times to repeal the Affordable Care Act and couldn’t do it–so they tried to hold the government hostage to achieve that end. That’s kidnapping metaphorically, and morally reprehensible.

    The European: Graham said, adding that Republicans went “too far” and “screwed up.”

  28. avatar
    Arthur October 16, 2013 at 1:10 pm #

    john: Personally, this is the 11th Hour and the GOP House should stick by their guns.

    Good one, john! Except their guns aren’t loaded, they don’t know where the ammunition is, and their barrels are overheated and warped. But by all means, I hope John Boehner takes your courageous advice. After all, it worked so well for General Kuribayashi on Iwo Jima.

  29. avatar
    Kiwiwriter October 16, 2013 at 1:11 pm #

    The birthers, having lost on the Obama issue, are now moving on to New Jersey’s Cory Booker, who is facing Tea Party man Steve Lonegan in the special US Senate election today.

    The birthers are now claiming that Cory Booker does NOT live in Newark or anywhere in New Jersey, and therefore, should be denied his Senate seat, should he win tonight.

    Here are some links to the crazy folks:

    http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/10/15/of-course-fox-ran-with-the-conspiracy-that-cory/196431
    Media Matters for America, by Ben Dimiero
    Of course Fox ran with the conspiracy that Cory Booker doesn’t live in New Jersey

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2013/10/15/birther_director_claims_that_cory_booker_does_not_live_in_newark.html
    Slate, by David Weigel
    Birther director claims that Cory Booker does not live in Newark

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2013/10/15/dick_morris_has_a_plan_to_block_cory_booker_from_the_senate_after_booker.html
    Slate, by David Weigel
    Dick Morris has a plan to block Cory Booker form the Senate after Booker wins by 14p oints
    http://dickmorris.rallycongress.com/11911/block-booker-he-doesnt-live-in-new-jersey/
    Dick Morris.Com
    Block Booker: He doesn’t live in New Jersey!

  30. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 16, 2013 at 1:19 pm #

    john: But, it looks like the GOP is craving. (Emphasis added.)

    They’ve been “craving” for a long time, john.

  31. avatar
    Arthur October 16, 2013 at 1:20 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: The birthers are now claiming that Cory Booker does NOT live in Newark or anywhere in New Jersey, and therefore, should be denied his Senate seat, should he win tonight.

    Here are some links to the crazy folks:

    At one time, conservative Republicans were simply antagonistically opposed to Democrats. They’ve now passed into a realm of hysterical nonsense.

  32. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 16, 2013 at 1:26 pm #

    john: Throughout this ordeal I have to agree with Gallup that Obama is the antichrist.

    Wow! You’re out of the closet now, john.

  33. avatar
    Crustacean October 16, 2013 at 1:28 pm #

    Dear John,

    You know that deal you made with the Devil – the one where you offered your soul in exchange for his proprietary spell-checker software?

    I think you were ripped off.

  34. avatar
    john October 16, 2013 at 1:29 pm #

    Maybe I should send an email to White House to ask Obama this question – Since its OK to put barricades up blocking access to the WWII Memorial, would be OK if lay on top of the Vietnam Memorial to take a knap? (There is a lot walking at Washington DC and I get tired. The Vietnam Memorial would great place the rest, lounge and take a knap)

  35. avatar
    interestedbystander October 16, 2013 at 1:37 pm #

    john:
    Just remember the House GOP can always say that Harry Reid and Obama have failed to come together in the 11th hour.

    The House GOP can say lots of things – problem is only the TBaggers believe it. John, have you seen the polls lately? They aren’t pretty for you and your ilk.

  36. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 16, 2013 at 1:42 pm #

    James M: My conclusion is that the opposition does not in fact object to the ACA in any material sense, but that the objection is to the provenance of the law and to the governing party that passed it.

    You are absolutely correct. None of these folks can put forth a cogent argument against the ACA. You’re also correct in that their objection is political but, worse, it’s also racial. They don’t like the black guy in their White House.

  37. avatar
    Arthur October 16, 2013 at 1:42 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Wow! You’re out of the closet now, john.

    I’m just happy that the ACA will finally allow the obviously unemployed john to finally get the mental health care he needs.

  38. avatar
    Kiwiwriter October 16, 2013 at 1:46 pm #

    john:
    When it all said and down, it doesn’t look for the GOP.First the GOP didn’t offer the Dems a carrot for the bending of ObamaCare.Second, the GOP House holds the Power of the Purse and in my opinion didn’t stick to that power good enough.John Boehner should have said from the beginning that the Government will stay shut down until the senate and Obama bends on ObamaCare and stay firm on that.in any event, Throughout this ordeal I have to agree with Gallup that Obama is the antichrist.Obama is sadistic and takes pleasure punishing the American People.Obama hates the military with passion which is why he has lashed strongly against our Vets by closing their memorials and denying them benefits.Obama then just kicks his feet back and watches the American People suffer.The only people Obama really cares about are his illegal alien supporters, convicted felons and terrorists and welfare people.

    Wow…there’s so much nuttery in this, it’s hard to know where to begin.

    Obama is the “Antichrist?” Have you got proof of this? Even the hallucinating St. John didn’t predict that.

    If Obama is the “Antichrist,” please tell us what his game is and how he intends to achieve it. And why the “Antichrist” hasn’t stuck pitchforks through you and the other “birthers.”

    Obama hates the military? Read this, from the New York Daily News.

    It’s what President Obama was doing yesterday.

    Decorating a US Army Captain with the Medal of Honor.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/army-officers-wins-congressional-medal-honor-article-1.1486351

    Epic fail, John. I think you should change your cocktail of medications. Try Abilify.

  39. avatar
    john October 16, 2013 at 2:08 pm #

    I sent the following letter to the Arlington National Cemetery Administration:

    Dear Administration,

    When the government reopens, I am planning on taking a trip to Washington DC. I plan to visit Arlington National Cemetery. I am an avid treasure hunter and I am asking permission if I can metal detect on the grounds of Arlington National Cemetery. Millions of people visit the cemetery and I want to metal detect around some of the green and the graves. I would promise to fill any holes I made and the administration can even keep an eye on me to be sure I fill in the holes I make at some the graves. I know this is an unusual request by I understand the National Park Service with approval of the President placed barricades in front of the memorials including the WWII Memorial denying Vets access to them. It seems this was OK with National Park Service and President so I don’t see why there be would a problem to allow me to metal detect around the green and the graves of Arlington National Cemetery. Thank you for your time in this matter and I look forward to quick response.

  40. avatar
    Curious George October 16, 2013 at 2:08 pm #

    I sure wish I could find my Mike Zullo decoder ring to figure our what John is trying to say….”When it all said and down…” Seriously John, are you doing okay this morning?

  41. avatar
    Keith October 16, 2013 at 2:09 pm #

    Perhaps the GOP side of the aisle has accomplished one good thing in this fiasco.

    At least the country is more “united” than it was going in (if poll numbers are anything to go by).

  42. avatar
    Daniel October 16, 2013 at 2:39 pm #

    john:
    The House GOP should reject the Senate Plan if it does not include any bending of ObamaCare.If the USA DEFAULTS, then so be it.

    Try using that on your bank some day for your mortgage. See how it goes over.

    Why do you hate America John?

  43. avatar
    Daniel October 16, 2013 at 2:43 pm #

    john:
    John Boehner should have said from the beginning that the Government will stay shut down until the senate and Obama bends on ObamaCare and stay firm on that.in any event,

    So how do you feel about negotiating with kidnappers and terrorists and other forms of extortion and ransom?

  44. avatar
    Daniel October 16, 2013 at 2:48 pm #

    john:
    Throughout this ordeal I have to agree with Gallup that Obama is the antichrist.Obama is sadistic and takes pleasure punishing the American People.Obama hates the military with passion which is why he has lashed strongly against our Vets by closing their memorials and denying them benefits.Obama then just kicks his feet back and watches the American People suffer.The only people Obama really cares about are his illegal alien supporters, convicted felons and terrorists and welfare people.

    AntiChrist? Really?

    Are you now pretending to be a Christian John? Sorry but I don’t buy it. REal Christians don’t spit on God’s ninth commandment. Every thing you’ve accused Obama of in your post is clearly and demonstrably false, and so, like all birthers, you depend on false witness for your very premise.

    You cannot be a birther and a true Christan at the same time. The two are patently incompatible.

    Any chance you’ll take the Christian path and confess your sins of hatemongering and false witness before God, and start showing some fruits of the Spirit, John?

    I didn’t think so.

  45. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 16, 2013 at 3:00 pm #

    john:
    When it all said and down, it doesn’t look for the GOP.First the GOP didn’t offer the Dems a carrot for the bending of ObamaCare.Second, the GOP House holds the Power of the Purse and in my opinion didn’t stick to that power good enough.John Boehner should have said from the beginning that the Government will stay shut down until the senate and Obama bends on ObamaCare and stay firm on that.in any event, Throughout this ordeal I have to agree with Gallup that Obama is the antichrist.Obama is sadistic and takes pleasure punishing the American People.Obama hates the military with passion which is why he has lashed strongly against our Vets by closing their memorials and denying them benefits.Obama then just kicks his feet back and watches the American People suffer.The only people Obama really cares about are his illegal alien supporters, convicted felons and terrorists and welfare people.

    How do you spout all that fecal matter without choking to death on it? For starters, there is no “the” antiChrist. Secondly, the particular antiChrist that people like Gallup are obsessed with, can’t possibly be Obama, as he does not fit the criteria! if so-called Christians like Gallup actually read the Bible and understood what they were reading, they’d know this!
    Lastly, terms like “The antiChrist” mean nothing to people who aren’t of the Christian faith. And I love to break it to you, but the US isn’t a Christian’s only club.

  46. avatar
    MattR October 16, 2013 at 3:11 pm #

    john: They hold the Power of Purse and no bill will be accepted unless it has ObamaCare Provision in it. The GOP House is willing to negotiate but ObamaCare Provisions stand.

    I don’t think you know what the word negotiate means.

  47. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 16, 2013 at 3:18 pm #

    MattR: I don’t think you know what the word negotiate means.

    I don’t think he knows what half the words he uses mean. After all, some of his birther heroes are idiots that use out of context Latin phrases, as a way to come off sounding intellectual.

  48. avatar
    MattR October 16, 2013 at 3:22 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: I don’t think he knows what half the words he uses mean. After all, some of his birther heroes are idiots that use out of context Latin phrases, as a way to come off sounding intellectual.

    That’s inconceivable

  49. avatar
    Thomas Brown October 16, 2013 at 3:28 pm #

    john: The only people Obama really cares about are his illegal alien supporters, convicted felons and terrorists and welfare people.

    That’s right, John. And he eats live puppies.

    What a brainless toad.

  50. avatar
    MattR October 16, 2013 at 3:35 pm #

    Thomas Brown: That’s right, John.And he eats live puppies.

    What a brainless toad.

    Because John lives in an echo chamber, he has no idea that there are a lot of liberals who think that Obama cares too much about Wall Street and the business class and has not done nearly enough to rein them in after the financial collapse. It is really kind of amusing to see the right hysterically scream that the bland centrist who is to the right of most of the Democratic party (or at least was before the GOP went so batshit insane that manymoderates in that party switched teams) is a radical socialist who wants to destroy America.

  51. avatar
    nbc October 16, 2013 at 3:42 pm #

    john: The only people Obama really cares about are his illegal alien supporters, convicted felons and terrorists and welfare people

    Ignorance and fear is what has led our poor friend John down a dark path of uninformed hatred and self loathing.

    Poor soul, and now the Congress has once again destroyed his hopes of a destruction of our nation…

    With patriots like these…

  52. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 16, 2013 at 4:02 pm #

    nbc: Ignorance and fear is what has led our poor friend John down a dark path of uninformed hatred and self loathing.

    Poor soul, and now the Congress has once again destroyed his hopes of a destruction of our nation…

    With patriots like these…

    If “patriots” like the ones John fantasizes about ran the place, America would be a tyrannically run theocracy, where just to be a citizen, you would have to be a straight, white Christian. And male, if you wish to hold any position with the slightest amount of power.

  53. avatar
    Rickey October 16, 2013 at 4:08 pm #

    john:
    Obama hates the military with passion which is why he has lashed strongly against our Vets by closing their memorials and denying them benefits.

    And how many years did you spend in the military, John? Oh, that’s right, not a single day. You have been perfectly content to let others do your dirty work, both for you and the country you claim to love, yet you feel qualified to come to the “defense” of veterans.

    I can speak because I am a veteran. After four years in the Navy I came home with the Vietnam Service Medal (with three stars), The Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal, the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal, the Navy Unit Commendation, the Meritorious Unit Commendation, and the National Defense Medal. I didn’t do anything extraordinary or heroic but I did my duty and I did it well.

    Barack Obama has been nothing but exceptionally supportive of our active duty military and our veterans. For a punk like you to open your mouth a spout lies and disrespect for our President is nothing short of shameful.

    Tell me, John – what have you ever done for your country? What sacrifices have you voluntarily made? Can you name even one?

  54. avatar
    Kiwiwriter October 16, 2013 at 4:12 pm #

    john:
    I sent the following letter to the Arlington National Cemetery Administration:

    Dear Administration,

    When the government reopens, I am planning on taking a trip to Washington DC.I plan to visit Arlington National Cemetery.I am an avid treasure hunter and I am asking permission if I can metal detect on the grounds of Arlington National Cemetery.Millions of people visit the cemetery and I want to metal detect around some of the green and the graves.I would promise to fill any holes I made and the administration can even keep an eye on me to be sure I fill in the holes I make at some the graves.I know this is an unusual request by I understand the National Park Service with approval of the President placed barricades in front of the memorials including the WWII Memorial denying Vets access to them.It seems this was OK with National Park Service and President so I don’t see why there be would a problem to allow me to metal detect around the green and the graves of Arlington National Cemetery.Thank you for your time in this matter and I look forward to quick response.

    Kindly explain your reasoning for your idiotic statement.

    Please send us their response…I devoutly hope it’s accompanied by the guys from the lunatic asylum.

  55. avatar
    Kiwiwriter October 16, 2013 at 4:13 pm #

    john:
    Maybe I should send an email to White House to ask Obama this question – Since its OK to put barricades up blocking access to the WWII Memorial, would be OK if lay on top of the Vietnam Memorial to take a knap? (There is a lot walking at Washington DC and I get tired.The Vietnam Memorial would great place the rest, lounge and take a knap)

    Why don’t you try it…and let us know how it works out for you?

  56. avatar
    Kiwiwriter October 16, 2013 at 4:15 pm #

    Rickey: And how many years did you spend in the military, John? Oh, that’s right, not a single day. You have been perfectly content to let others do your dirty work, bothfor you and the country you claim to love, yet you feel qualified to come to the “defense” of veterans.

    I can speak because I am a veteran. After four years in the Navy I came home with the Vietnam Service Medal (with three stars), The Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal, the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal, the Navy Unit Commendation, the Meritorious Unit Commendation, and the National Defense Medal. I didn’t do anything extraordinary or heroic but I did my duty and I did it well.

    Barack Obama has been nothing but exceptionally supportive of our active duty military and our veterans. For a punk like you to open your mouth a spout lies and disrespect for our President is nothing short of shameful.

    Tell me, John – what have you ever done for your country? What sacrifices have you voluntarily made? Can you name even one?

    John is a “Let’s you and him fight” patriot.

    By the way, John, you say President Obama only cares about “illegal aliens, terrorists, and welfare recipients.” You do realize that NONE of them vote (although the welfare recipients might, occasionally).

    And getting elected is all about votes…

  57. avatar
    Steve October 16, 2013 at 4:28 pm #

    john:
    Maybe I should send an email to White House to ask Obama this question – Since its OK to put barricades up blocking access to the WWII Memorial, would be OK if lay on top of the Vietnam Memorial to take a knap? (There is a lot walking at Washington DC and I get tired.The Vietnam Memorial would great place the rest, lounge and take a knap)

    What’s a knap?

  58. avatar
    MattR October 16, 2013 at 4:33 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: By the way, John, you say President Obama only cares about “illegal aliens, terrorists, and welfare recipients.” You do realize that NONE of them vote (although the welfare recipients might, occasionally).

    In John’s world, Obama was only elected when all those welfare receipients finally decided to vote because Obama was promising them free stuff. And they aren’t “real Americans” so their votes shouldn’t count.

  59. avatar
    Kiwiwriter October 16, 2013 at 4:35 pm #

    MattR: In John’s world, Obama was only elected when all those welfare receipients finally decided to vote because Obama was promising them free stuff.And they aren’t “real Americans” so their votes shouldn’t count.

    In John’s world, the only “real Americans” are white, blond, with big muscles, big shoulders, and bigger husbands…however, only their husbands can vote.

    Doc C: I think we’re all a little tired of John’s fecal matter. But it’s your call.

  60. avatar
    MattR October 16, 2013 at 4:38 pm #

    john:
    Maybe I should send an email to White House to ask Obama this question – Since its OK to put barricades up blocking access to the WWII Memorial, would be OK if lay on top of the Vietnam Memorial to take a knap? (There is a lot walking at Washington DC and I get tired.The Vietnam Memorial would great place the rest, lounge and take a knap)

    Maybe you should send an email asking – since it is OK to put up barricades blocking access to streets during parades, would it be OK if I lay in the middle of the street to take a “knap”?

  61. avatar
    MN-Skeptic October 16, 2013 at 4:59 pm #

    john:
    Maybe I should send an email to White House to ask Obama this question – Since its OK to put barricades up blocking access to the WWII Memorial, would be OK if lay on top of the Vietnam Memorial to take a knap? (There is a lot walking at Washington DC and I get tired.The Vietnam Memorial would great place the rest, lounge and take a knap)

    Do you take a knap in a knapsack? 😀

  62. avatar
    sfjeff October 16, 2013 at 5:12 pm #

    john: The House GOP should reject the Senate Plan if it does not include any bending of ObamaCare. If the USA DEFAULTS, then so be it.

    The Republicans say that the ACA will destroy America economy.

    Financial Analysts say that defaulting will destroy America’s economy, and very likely destroy America’s position as the world’s financial leader.

    Comments like this make me think that these Republicans- like John- would rather see America’s economy destroyed- rather than accept Obama as President.

    Defaulting at best would mean that the U.S. only suffers minimal harm- but few people believe that. Defaulting on the other hand- Defaulting might trigger a world wide cataclismic depression.

    And if it happened- the Republicans calling for no deal would of course blame everyone but themselves.

  63. avatar
    Rickey October 16, 2013 at 5:41 pm #

    john:
    I sent the following letter to the Arlington National Cemetery Administration:

    Dear Administration,

    When the government reopens, I am planning on taking a trip to Washington DC.I plan to visit Arlington National Cemetery.I am an avid treasure hunter and I am asking permission if I can metal detect on the grounds of Arlington National Cemetery.Millions of people visit the cemetery and I want to metal detect around some of the green and the graves.I would promise to fill any holes I made and the administration can even keep an eye on me to be sure I fill in the holes I make at some the graves.I know this is an unusual request by I understand the National Park Service with approval of the President placed barricades in front of the memorials including the WWII Memorial denying Vets access to them.It seems this was OK with National Park Service and President so I don’t see why there be would a problem to allow me to metal detect around the green and the graves of Arlington National Cemetery.Thank you for your time in this matter and I look forward to quick response.

    So now you idea of supporting veterans is to deface Arlington National Cemetery?

    You are more deranged than I first believed.

  64. avatar
    Rickey October 16, 2013 at 5:45 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: In John’s world, the only “real Americans” are white, blond, with big muscles, big shoulders, and bigger husbands…however, only their husbands can vote.

    Last week a woman I know posted a note on Facebook that only people who believe in “one nation under God” should have a say in how this country is run.

    Even though she claims to have taken courses in Constitutional law, I had to point out the “no religious test” clause to her

  65. avatar
    Daniel October 16, 2013 at 6:07 pm #

    john:
    I sent the following letter to the Arlington National Cemetery Administration:

    Dear Administration,

    I understand the National Park Service with approval of the President placed barricades in front of the memorials including the WWII Memorial denying Vets access to them.It seems this was OK with National Park Service and President so I don’t see why there be would a problem to allow me to metal detect around the green and the graves of Arlington National Cemetery.Thank you for your time in this matter and I look forward to quick response.

    John do you realize what you’re saying? If you campaigned and schemed and extorted to shut down a MacDonald’s location, would you then blame the manager when you were refused an order of fries? “But I didn’t mean you should shut down the fryer!!!!”

    Look dipstick, you and the baggers wanted a shutdown, you got a shutdown. You don’t like the fact that things got shut down? Well guess what, princess, maybe you should have thought first and filibustered later. If the vets were inconvenienced, that’s YOUR fault, not Obama’s. When the shutdown happens he has to follow the law, and when you shut down government, you shut down federal parks with it.

    And stop trying to who-re out vets by linking them to your dripping and moaning. We vets fight our own battles. we don’t need snot-nosed cowards like you. When you’ve been shot at, maybe then you’ll have a seat at my table. Until then you can kiss my ascot.

  66. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater October 16, 2013 at 7:19 pm #

    John isn’t fooling anyone we know he hasn’t stepped one foot outside his county let alone state.

  67. avatar
    Arthur October 16, 2013 at 7:30 pm #

    Rickey: You are more deranged than I first believed.

    Naw, he’s just trolling, hoping to get people worked up, because he’s mad that President Obama stood up to the Cruz-baggers and won.

  68. avatar
    jayHG October 16, 2013 at 7:46 pm #

    I think John is Orly…..she has been largely ignored lately and so she comes over her, says something so stupid that she she gets a lot of folks, me included, responding to her telling her she’s stupid and VIOLA!!!! Attention!!! It’s all in her plan.

    …either that or John really IS stupid…..and deluded and dumb as a box of rocks (see “knap”), pile of hair, glass of water, etc.

  69. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 16, 2013 at 8:46 pm #

    That’s why God created the Page Down button.

    Kiwiwriter: Doc C: I think we’re all a little tired of John’s fecal matter. But it’s your call.

  70. avatar
    donna October 16, 2013 at 8:52 pm #

    these are the 18 turds who voted for default in the senate:

    Coburn, Cornyn, Crapo, Cruz, Enzi, Grassley, Heller, Johnson-WI, Lee, Paul, Risch, Roberts, Rubio, Scott, Sessions, Shelby, Toomey, and Vitter.

    the vote was 81-18

    Petition Demands that John Boehner and Ted Cruz Be Tried for Seditious Conspiracy

    http://www.politicususa.com/2013/10/16/petition-sedition.html

  71. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 16, 2013 at 9:02 pm #

    John, they have people who check the mail addressed to the White House. They filter out letters from nutters like yourself, ensuring that they’ll never reach the President’s desk.

  72. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund October 16, 2013 at 9:31 pm #

    john:
    Maybe I should send an email to White House to ask Obama this question – Since its OK to put barricades up blocking access to the WWII Memorial, would be OK if lay on top of the Vietnam Memorial to take a knap? (There is a lot walking at Washington DC and I get tired.The Vietnam Memorial would great place the rest, lounge and take a knap)

    Did I read that right? Is john threatening to deface the Vietnam Memorial? Knapping is the action of striking certain types of minerals to remove material, generally in order to create certain shapes (commonly used for stone arrow- and spear-heads).

  73. avatar
    JPotter October 16, 2013 at 9:33 pm #

    donna: Seditious Conspiracy

    Wow, sedition! How so very turn-of-the-Nineteenth-century quaint!

    What is it about wingnuttery, and in particular birtherism, that dredges up all your legal favorites from yesteryear? Remember barratry? It’s so Dickensian, spellcheck flags wants it right out!

  74. avatar
    Arthur October 16, 2013 at 10:22 pm #

    Some of you may recall that our very own poster, Misha, has predicted great things for Newark, N.J. mayor, Cory Booker. It appears that Misha may be correct:

    New Jersey Election Results: Cory Booker Wins Special Election For Senate

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/16/new-jersey-election-results_n_4102237.html

  75. avatar
    donna October 16, 2013 at 10:28 pm #

    Arthur: Cory Booker Wins Special Election For Senate

    it will be interesting to see what number he wins by – christie WASTED money not to have this election on the same day as his in november

    the house voted to end the default with numbers to spare – 285 – 143

    87 republicans voted YES

  76. avatar
    Northland10 October 16, 2013 at 10:48 pm #

    john: the GOP House holds the Power of the Purse and in my opinion didn’t stick to that power good enough.John Boehner should have said from the beginning that the Government will stay shut down until the senate and Obama bends on ObamaCare and stay firm on that.

    Oh John, the House is 1/2 one branch of government. That means, if they want their way, they have to find a way to convince the Senate to agree and have Obama sign the bill. You seem to have no problem with part of the House “dictating” what the others house of Congress must do. Did we forget about that little thing called a Constitution and democracy?

    On a side note, I have not seen a John meltdown like this since the Lakin trial.

  77. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 16, 2013 at 10:55 pm #

    John’s probably hiding under the bed, sobbing into his own butt as we speak.
    Honestly, I was gonna go play some Skyrim(Need to finish building my stronghold, damn it!), or watch Shada(I can’t believe they found away to complete it!), but watching the freepers having a meltdown over the GOP caving is toooooooo good!

  78. avatar
    MattR October 16, 2013 at 11:02 pm #

    … I deleted the original comment …

    Completely misread the comment I was repsonding to

  79. avatar
    Arthur October 16, 2013 at 11:42 pm #

    Northland10: On a side note, I have not seen a John meltdown like this since the Lakin trial.

    Indeed, john’s reaction to the Republican Fall Festival of Fail has been terrifying to observe. I haven’t been this moved since watching that pot not boil.

  80. avatar
    Arthur October 16, 2013 at 11:45 pm #

    donna: 87 republicans voted YES

    I proud of their courage. I’m sure Jim DeMint even now is plotting how they’ll be primaried.

  81. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 16, 2013 at 11:59 pm #

    That’s 87 GOPers who finally realized their party wasn’t gonna “get something out of this”.

  82. avatar
    gorefan October 17, 2013 at 12:21 am #

    Free Masons got a shout in the House tonight.

    http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/16/20997927-house-stenographer-has-outburst-during-debt-vote?lite

  83. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 17, 2013 at 12:27 am #

    And if John plays his cards right, he too can get hauled of by men in white coats!

  84. avatar
    John Reilly October 17, 2013 at 12:45 am #

    A few observations as I have not posted in a while.

    1. My Republican representative voted yes. It does not hurt that my wife and I maxed out in contributing so I can call and make my feelings known. I’m a deficit hawk, but I’m not about to destroy the world economy because there is a Black guy in the White House.

    2. All birthers are racists, including our resident birthers John and Scott. Asking the President to prove something that is already objectively true is another variant of “show me your papers, boy.” It is designed to emasculate and marginalize African Americans. The only birthers who are not racists are those who can prove that they previously asked for a white candidate’s papers and then did not believe them when presented. The total number of those birthers is zero; it is like looking for a Unicorn.

    3. Closing the Washington DC monuments like the WWII memorial is one of the obvious results of closing the government. 100% of the blame goes to my party. 100%. Suggesting that the President had anything to do with it is despicable. Suggesting that when your name is Ted Cruz is lower than despicable. Not happy, Ted? There are monuments open in Cuba and in Canada. Go somewhere else.

    4. I’d follow John McCain anywhere. Tonight he said that Rep. Louis Gohmert had no intelligence. Sen. McCain was being kind. Rep. Gohmert is a disgrace for saying that John McCain was a traitor.

    5. Dr. Taitz has been positively orgasmic over the prospect of a default. Then silent when enough adults went to work tonight. Her picture should be in the dictionary next to “sedition.” And she said Sen. McConnell was bribed to vote the way he did. Also despicable, but to be expected.

  85. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 17, 2013 at 9:26 am #

    Speaking of Orly, I’m rather underwhelmed right now. I expected a full on meltdown from her this morning. Well, the day is young. I’m sure she’ll crack by lunch, with some kind of mega tantrum.

  86. avatar
    Arthur October 17, 2013 at 10:03 am #

    gorefan: Free Masons got a shout in the House tonight.

    From the article,

    “In a bizarre end to the House vote to reopen the federal government late Wednesday night, a stenographer was escorted off the House floor after yelling into a microphone about God, Freemasons and a divided government, aides and members said.

    “The woman, Dianne Reidy, was carried off the floor by House staff.

    “Capitol Police said she has been ‘transported to a local area hospital for evaluation.’

    “‘The greatest deception here is this is not one nation under God, it never was,’ she could be heard yelling when she took control of the microphone.”

    A delusional fear of Freemasonry is imbedded in many Christian sects. So, what’s see being evaluated for–holding paranoid beliefs that many Americans share, or simply going too far in expressing her beliefs. I wish it was the former, but I’m sure it will be later.

  87. avatar
    JPotter October 17, 2013 at 10:14 am #

    John Reilly: A few observations

    Hear, Hear! on all points.

    I haven’t checked on my Okieland’s delegations voting pattern (but I can guess…), I do know Sen. Coburn was one of the 18 against. Fits his pattern …. mindless rejection of Obamacare, mindless rejection of gov’t spending, no presentation of rational alternatives.

    Looking forward to catching up on coverage of the cave-in. Guess those “principles” had a price after all 😉

  88. avatar
    gorefan October 17, 2013 at 10:24 am #

    Arthur: I wish it was the former, but I’m sure it will be later.

    CNN had additional info on the woman. And more of her rant.

    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/10/17/stenographer-snaps-rants-on-house-floor/?hpt=hp_t2

    Everyone says she was quite normal. Up until the episode.

    “She’s a well-known person, she’s a perfectly nice person, a good colleague, somebody who’s respectable and dependable, and this is very surprising to everybody who works with her,” Bash reported on air.”

  89. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 17, 2013 at 10:26 am #

    gorefan: CNN had additional info on the woman.And more of her rant.

    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/10/17/stenographer-snaps-rants-on-house-floor/?hpt=hp_t2

    Everyone says she was quite normal.Up until the episode.

    “She’s a well-known person, she’s a perfectly nice person, a good colleague, somebody who’s respectable and dependable, and this is very surprising to everybody who works with her,” Bash reported on air.”

    That’s usually how neighbors describe a serial killer.

  90. avatar
    Thomas Brown October 17, 2013 at 10:48 am #

    John Reilly: A few observations as I have not posted in a while.

    Can we clone you and have you run against every Tea Party candidate, everywhere?

  91. avatar
    Arthur October 17, 2013 at 12:03 pm #

    A very interesting interview with Harvard sociologist Theda Skocpol, whose recent books include “The Tea Party and the Remaking of Republican Conservatism.”

    When asked if she agreed with the idea that the Tea Party is motivated, at least in part, “by the fear that white people are losing their privilege in the U.S., Skocpol observed,

    “We actually did the research, both by pulling together national [data] and by doing observations in groups in three regions. There’s no question that at the grassroots, the approximately half of all Republican-identifiers who think of themselves as Tea Partiers are a very conservative-minded old group of white people, some of whom do go all the way back to Goldwater and the Birch Society. They are skeptical of the Republican party as it has been run in recent years. But they both hate and fear the Democratic Party and Obama. We argued in many ways that anger comes from alarm on the part of these older conservatives that they’re losing their country – that’s what they say. That they’re the true Americans, and they’re losing control of American politics.

    “But I don’t really think it’s helpful to announce that the entire Tea Party base is racist. I don’t think it’s that simple. For one thing, they’re just as riled up about immigration as they are about blacks. There’s certainly a worry about a change in the social composition of America. But we found in our research that they also resent young people – including in their own families.”

    Interestingly, Tea Partiers are also mad about the those damn gen-xers and millennials:

    “They think young people are not measuring up. That the grandsons and daughters and nieces and nephews expect to get free college loans, and don’t get a job, and hold ideas that are not very American in their view – like Obama. Obama symbolizes all of this.”

    http://www.salon.com/2013/10/17/tea_partiers_grave_fear_why_they_disdain_young_people_even_their_own/

  92. avatar
    donna October 17, 2013 at 3:43 pm #

    Emerging right-wing theme: Obama planned shutdown with Valerie Jarrett as trap for Republicans

    The claim originates with author Ed Klein, who wrote a provocative and widely criticized biography of Obama called The Amateur, in addition to The Truth About Hillary, a similarly received book on the Clintons.

    “They already had barricades, cones, from New York to California, Utah, Arizona, South Dakota – they had worked out in advance that they were closing these things down,” said (DUMBER THAN DIRT) Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX) during a Wednesday afternoon Fox News interview.

    “Republicans were the adults in the room, offering compromise after compromise and urging the President to come to the table and do what’s right for our country,” Michelle Bachmann said Thursday in a Facebook post.

    Rep. John C. Fleming (R-LA) voted against the House measure that reopened the government until Jan. 7 and raised the debt ceiling until Jan. 7, and he said he’s already looking forward to the next shutdown.

    “That will get us into Round 2,” Fleming told The New York Times. “See, we’re going to start this all over again.”

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/10/17/emerging-right-wing-theme-obama-planned-shutdown-with-valerie-jarrett-as-trap-for-republicans/

    where are the hearings, issa??????

  93. avatar
    JPotter October 17, 2013 at 4:02 pm #

    donna: Emerging right-wing theme: Obama planned shutdown with Valerie Jarrett as trap for Republicans

    … and they walked right into it! What does their own conspiracizing say about them? Pretty silly throwing yourself under the bus, but they are getting awfully good at it!

    Haven’t they heard of “contingency planning” a/o “institutional memory”? Shutdowns used to be much more frequent. And, part of competent management is due diligence, planning for all possibilities.

    No wonder they’re confused, having no experience with it, they can’t recognize competence when they see it!

    Lastly, it’s not like the Reds failed to telegraph their shutdown scheming months in advance … !

  94. avatar
    G October 17, 2013 at 7:34 pm #

    *facepalm*

    Gee…so the argument this guy is making is that it is “unhelpful” to call these turds racist, because the data shows that only HALF of them are specifically “anti-black people”, while the rest of them are busy hating all sorts of other types of people…

    Is that what this guy is saying??? Seriously?!

    News for him – “racism” isn’t JUST against “black people”, it is against ANY perceived racial distinction. So yeah, a whole heck of a lot of that anti-immigration attitude from these TP turds is very racially driven…specifically against perceived “non-euro-white” people of one type of another…as I’m sure a lot of that worry of “social composition” as well (i.e. “culture issues” that are different than their own). Then the anti-generational bigotry thing…I mean WTF.

    So re-reading that article, I only come away convinced that it is simply MORE accurate and MORE helpful to paint these TP folks as broad-based BIGOTS of all flavors. Yeah, mostly a movement of cranky old folks screaming “get off my lawn” to everyone else…and a certain amount of younger hate-driven bigots that sympathize with them.

    Face it, the TP is nothing but a tantrum-throwing, emotionally immature, scorched-earth mentality hate group pretending to wrap themselves in the flag and economic issues to cover for their true dark-hearted petty motivations. In other words, a bunch of whiny jerks and turds. Nothing more.

    Arthur: “But I don’t really think it’s helpful to announce that the entire Tea Party base is racist. I don’t think it’s that simple. For one thing, they’re just as riled up about immigration as they are about blacks. There’s certainly a worry about a change in the social composition of America. But we found in our research that they also resent young people – including in their own families.”

    Interestingly, Tea Partiers are also mad about the those damn gen-xers and millennials:

  95. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 17, 2013 at 8:24 pm #

    I completely agree. I’ve long been convinced that bigotry is the thread that binds these asshats together. Just like someone cannot be a birther without being prejudiced against President Obama, I think people join up with the Teahaddi to express their bigotry against whoever they see as “not real Americans” like themselves.

    G: So re-reading that article, I only come away convinced that it is simply MORE accurate and MORE helpful to paint these TP folks as broad-based BIGOTS of all flavors.

  96. avatar
    JPotter October 17, 2013 at 8:33 pm #

    “But I don’t really think it’s helpful to announce that the entire Tea Party base is [merely] racist.”

    There, FIFH.

    Hate starts at home, G. These sad sacks, consumed by and given in to fear, hate themselves.

  97. avatar
    James M October 17, 2013 at 8:56 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: How on earth is closing a memorial an impeachable offense? I’d like to hear the legal justification on this one.

    Please do tell me…we’ve got all decade.

    President Obama had no direct role in the closure of the National Monuments in question, and had no lawful authority under which he could have ordered them reopened once closed.

    If anyone can produce the language of any such order, they may argue their position.

  98. avatar
    James M October 17, 2013 at 9:03 pm #

    CarlOrcas: You are absolutely correct. None of these folks can put forth a cogent argument against the ACA. You’re also correct in that their objection is political but, worse, it’s also racial. They don’t like the black guy in their White House.

    Thank you Carl. I never know whether to expect anyone to read my ravings, especially when I’m just replying to the likes of John. I _know_ he doesn’t read.

  99. avatar
    James M October 17, 2013 at 9:05 pm #

    Arthur: From the article,

    “In a bizarre end to the House vote to reopen the federal government late Wednesday night, a stenographer was escorted off the House floor after yelling into a microphone about God, Freemasons and a divided government, aides and members said.

    “The woman, Dianne Reidy, was carried off the floor by House staff.

    “Capitol Police said she has been ‘transported to a local area hospital for evaluation.’

    “‘The greatest deception here is this is not one nation under God, it never was,’ she could be heard yelling when she took control of the microphone.”

    A delusional fear of Freemasonry is imbedded in many Christian sects. So, what’s see being evaluated for–holding paranoid beliefs that many Americans share, or simply going too far in expressing her beliefs. I wish it was the former, but I’m sure it will be later.

    70+ year olds having potlucks and playing bingo? I’m scared of being dragged to something like that, but that’s a very rational, non-delusional fear.

  100. avatar
    Rickey October 17, 2013 at 9:10 pm #

    donna:
    Emerging right-wing theme: Obama planned shutdown with Valerie Jarrett as trap for Republicans.

    If it was a trap, it was the easiest trap in the world to avoid. All Boehner had to do was allow an up or down vote on the Senate’s continuing resolution and the shutdown would not have happened.

    One thing which many people do not realize is that the House Republicans changed the standing rules in order to prevent a vote on the Senate’s C.R. House Democrats were stripped of their ability to demand a vote on the Senate bill and that power was given exclusively to Boehner. It is just another example of how the current Republican party is opposed to majority rule.

  101. avatar
    Steve October 17, 2013 at 9:27 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: How on earth is closing a memorial an impeachable offense? I’d like to hear the legal justification on this one.

    Please do tell me…we’ve got all decade.

    The consensus among the right is that there was no legitimate reason for the monuments and parks to be closed (they claim that they cost nothing to remain open) and that Obama was just doing it out of spite or contempt for veterans, the military, working people, etc.
    Parts of this article explain the line of thinking:
    http://johntreed.com/Approaching-the-cliff.html

    “And the Democrats seem to be so eager to count their chickens before they are hatched that they appear to be snatching defeat from the jaws of victory by astonishing arrogance with regard to using the shutdown gratuitously to inflict maximum pain on Republican and other voters: closing granite monuments that have no moving parts or indoor areas; closing 11,000 square miles of open ocean; denying death benefits to recently murdered service persons’ families, shutting down hotel/restaurant concessionaires on public highways who lease their property from the federal government for a percentage of their gross sales thereby diminishing federal revenue further; all while engaging in the now standard Obama practice of giving exceptions to federal law to Democrat voters—like letting amnesty demonstrators hold a mass meeting on the otherwise “shutdown” National Mall or exempting unions from Obamacare.”

    The article’s conclusion:
    “Obama, in other words, is going to keep hurting as many Americans as possible as much as possible until he gets his way.

    Such behavior, by the President of the United States, is treason.”

  102. avatar
    charo October 17, 2013 at 9:30 pm #

    James M: President Obama had no direct role in the closure of the National Monuments in question, and had no lawful authority under which he could have ordered them reopened once closed.

    If anyone can produce the language of any such order, they may argue their position.

    </blockquote

    Not an order but ….

    And even as the agencies argue they have blanket policies, the administration has made some exceptions. An immigrant rights rally was allowed to take place on the Mall in Washington on Tuesday, despite it being park property that is supposed to be closed to the public.

    Some of the speakers at the rally demanded President Obama give the same rights to everyone.

    “Please open our parks and open this Mall to veterans and to normal everyday citizens who also should have the same access we enjoy here today,” said Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, Florida Republican, as she joined the rally for immigration.

    House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi of California, who followed Mrs. Ros-Lehtinen, defended the president, thanking him for making an exception to the shutdown and “enabling us to gather here.”

    She also said veterans told her the administration “bent over backwards” to allow them to visit the World War II Memorial on the Mall, which has been the site of several clashes between the public and park rangers since the shutdown began. [really Speaker Pelosi? Bent over backwards?]

    Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/8/nps-accused-gestapo-tactics-enforce-shutdown/?page=2#ixzz2i25whFSH
    Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter
    http://www.8newsnow.com/story/23199629/i-team

    Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

  103. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 17, 2013 at 9:31 pm #

    James M: Thank you Carl.I never know whether to expect anyone to read my ravings, especially when I’m just replying to the likes of John.I _know_ he doesn’t read.

    You’re welcome. For the record I think john probably does read the posts here. I’m just not sure he understands them well enough to respond.

  104. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 17, 2013 at 9:35 pm #

    Steve: Such behavior, by the President of the United States, is treason.”

    Someone needs a dictionary. It is, of course, not treason.

    Consider for a moment what the same people would be saying had the Administration not closed the monuments and an elderly veteran had a problem, heart attack or something like that, while visiting the unpatrolled and unmonitored monument and there was no one available to help.

    Of course….they would be calling him a traitor for exposing our heroes to such danger. Predictable and pathetic.

  105. avatar
    Steve October 17, 2013 at 9:42 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Someone needs a dictionary. It is, of course, not treason.

    Consider for a moment what the same people would be saying had the Administration not closed the monuments and an elderly veteran had a problem, heart attack or something like that, while visiting the unpatrolled and unmonitored monument and there was no one available to help.

    Of course….they would be calling him a traitor for exposing our heroes to such danger. Predictable and pathetic.

    Just to clarify, I’m not making that claim, the author is. Reed has had his share of issues with Obama, also, it seems, with black people in general, going back to when he was a young Army officer and a black mess sergeant mouthed off to him and was not punished.

  106. avatar
    charo October 17, 2013 at 9:56 pm #

    Rickey: If it was a trap, it was the easiest trap in the world to avoid. All Boehner had to do was allow an up or down vote on the Senate’s continuing resolution and the shutdown would not have happened.

    One thing which many people do not realize is that the House Republicans changed the standing rules in order to prevent a vote on the Senate’s C.R. House Democrats were stripped of their ability to demand a vote on the Senate bill and that power was given exclusively to Boehner. It is just another example of how the current Republican party is opposed to majority rule.

    Wasn’t there a unusual method used when passing the ACA, which would not normally be done with major legislation?

  107. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 17, 2013 at 10:02 pm #

    Steve: Just to clarify, I’m not making that claim, the author is. Reed has had his share of issues with Obama, also, it seems, with black people in general, going back to when he was a young Army officer and a black mess sergeant mouthed off to him and was not punished.

    Yes, I know you’re quoting John T. Reed http://johntreed.com/Approaching-the-cliff.html Others can review his website and draw their own conclusions about his ravings.

    As far as his having a problem with “black people in general” because a mess sergeant “mouthed off to him and was not punished” all I can say is the West Point graduates I know aren’t quite that sensitive.

  108. avatar
    Steve October 17, 2013 at 10:08 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Yes, I know you’re quoting John T. Reed http://johntreed.com/Approaching-the-cliff.html Others can review his website and draw their own conclusions about his ravings.

    As far as his having a problem with “black people in general” because a mess sergeant “mouthed off to him and was not punished”all I can say is the West Point graduates I know aren’t quite that sensitive.

    Sorry if I came off as a concern troll.
    Not my intent.

  109. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 17, 2013 at 10:10 pm #

    Steve: Sorry if I came off as a concern troll.
    Not my intent.

    No problem!

  110. avatar
    JPotter October 17, 2013 at 10:22 pm #

    charo: Wasn’t there a unusual method used when passing the ACA, which would not normally be done with major legislation?

    Such as … ? Just asking questions, doncha know 😉

  111. avatar
    JPotter October 17, 2013 at 10:24 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    At some point, I need to look into Lucas Smith’s latest article. It claims that Kenyan statistical reports contradict US statistical reports regarding travel of Americans to Kenya in 1961.

    He’s forging “statistical reports” now?

  112. avatar
    Suranis October 17, 2013 at 10:26 pm #

    If you mean actually using 60 votes to override a filibuster, yeah.

    Other than that, no. There was talk of using it on a budget bill so that it could not be filibustered, but then the law would only have lasted 10 years before renewal. So they put it forward as a separate bill on its own.

    The Right wing talk of ramming it through the senate and house is complete bunkum. I think they might have used some rule to stop the GOP delaying passage by proposing bullshit amendment after bullshit amendment as well but I cant remember clearly.

    charo: Wasn’t there a unusual method used when passing the ACA, which would not normally be done with major legislation?

  113. avatar
    G October 17, 2013 at 11:26 pm #

    Which IMHO, is the only reason that you even see some “younger” members among the TP crowds at all – generational hate passed down by their hate-constipated parents and within closed-off communities, which foster such brainwashed group-think so that it continues to fester and be passed onto their younger generations. What a sad legacy.

    JPotter: Hate starts at home, G. These sad sacks, consumed by and given in to fear, hate themselves.

  114. avatar
    charo October 17, 2013 at 11:33 pm #

    JPotter: Such as … ? Just asking questions, doncha know

    Reconciliation. Both sides use rule manipulation.

    I want to make some cool emoticons.

  115. avatar
    G October 17, 2013 at 11:40 pm #

    Good examples of some exceptions to the closure that did take place. So yeah, I think that is a fair point that there were some very small administrative actions taken to selectively get around some very tiny parts of the government shutdown.

    Not that any of that was a crime or in any way close to something that is impeachable or even seen as doing a disservice to the American people… at worst, it is merely a little bit of political pressure capitulation to certain lobbying groups – something which happens routinely even when the government is operating at full capacity – regardless of which party is in power (all that might change is which lobbying groups pressure wins out, that’s all).

    charo: Not an order but ….

    And even as the agencies argue they have blanket policies, the administration has made some exceptions. An immigrant rights rally was allowed to take place on the Mall in Washington on Tuesday, despite it being park property that is supposed to be closed to the public.

    Some of the speakers at the rally demanded President Obama give the same rights to everyone.

    She also said veterans told her the administration “bent over backwards” to allow them to visit the World War II Memorial on the Mall, which has been the site of several clashes between the public and park rangers since the shutdown began. [really Speaker Pelosi? Bent over backwards?]

  116. avatar
    charo October 17, 2013 at 11:54 pm #

    My daughter just got a new notebook and mechanical pencils this evening. It is almost midnight, and she has been working on math. I am not saying no to this one. 🙂 [boring emoticon]

  117. avatar
    G October 17, 2013 at 11:57 pm #

    Congress using various rule manipulations to bring bills up for votes or to move them along the process is nothing new at all. There are tons and tons of these byzantine maneuvers that they tend to pull out, when things get gummed up in the works (and remember, these are merely internal “rules” of these chambers, ones also subject to change by the bodies themselves). Such tricks are also used with increasing frequency to block legislation from fairly moving forward too. All that differs between a lot of these situations is which tactics are employed in response to other tactics.

    As a pragmatist, I find a lot of this to be silly nonsensical games and would prefer a system with more straightforward up and down voting and less need for nonsense such as filibusters (never liked them, regardless of which party was in charge…and boy are they way, way overused now) and other tactics. But reconciliation was merely an existing rules tactic used to counter other silly blocking rules tactics by the other side. The whole legislative process has always been (and increasing is) a messy slog of political gamesmanship and tactics to continuously bloat or water down legislation as it filters through the bowels of congress before becoming law.

    People only seem to pay attention to the ugliness and silliness of the process selectively, as a particular bill or issue is brought to more public attention. But it is merely how our dysfunctional system functions. The laws that come out of the process are no less valid or legit, despite whatever byzantine internal chamber rules and tactics were used to get them through the process.

    charo: Reconciliation.Both sides use rule manipulation.

    I want to make some cool emoticons.

  118. avatar
    Suranis October 18, 2013 at 12:01 am #

    If you mean actually using 60 votes to override a filibuster, yeah.

    Other than that, no. There was talk of using it on a budget bill so that it could not be filibustered, but then the law would only have lasted 10 years before renewal. So they put it forward as a separate bill on its own.

    The Right wing talk of ramming it through the senate and house is complete bunkum. I think they might have used some rule to stop the GOP delaying passage by proposing bull amendment after bull amendment as well but I cant remember clearly. Certainly there was a lot of that in the house.

    charo: Wasn’t there a unusual method used when passing the ACA, which would not normally be done with major legislation?

  119. avatar
    James M October 18, 2013 at 12:07 am #

    charo: Wasn’t there a unusual method used when passing the ACA, which would not normally be done with major legislation?

    Yes, they used an unusual rule that’s only been in place since the early 1930s and which has only been applied a few hundred times. Shocking.

  120. avatar
    James M October 18, 2013 at 12:11 am #

    Rickey: ulations to bring bills up for votes or to move them along the process is nothing new at all. There are tons and tons of these byzantine maneuvers that they tend to pull out, when things get gummed up in the works (and remember, these are merely internal “rules” of these chambers, ones also subject to change by the bodies themselves). Such tricks are also used with increasing frequency to block legislation from fairly moving forward too. All that differs between a lot of these situations is which tactics are employed in response to other tactics.

    As a pragmatist, I find a lot of this to be silly nonsensical

    It may be important to recognize that the rule you’re referring to was very narrowly drafted and only applied to one specific bill, Joint Resolution 59. Once the amended Joint Resolution passed, that rule lost any applicability to any other process. It didn’t change anything fundamental in the process or create any precedent that had not already been in place.

  121. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 18, 2013 at 12:11 am #

    I noticed an interesting pattern in the statistics of the use of the filibuster since LBJ was “Master of the Senate” (and faced 3 cloture votes—it seems like Harry Reid faces three cloture votes before breakfast each day…). Whenever a substantial jump in the use of the filibuster occurred since then the Republicans have been in the minority, however, when the Democrats become the minority again their use doesn’t return to the previous rate. I think this pattern is repeated in many places in our government—Republicans find new ways to game the system and the Democrats fail to end those abuses and prevent their occurrence in the future once they get the chance. It why I think it would have been a disaster if the Teahaddi had extorted any ransom from this debacle—that would have guaranteed that we would govern by crisis until things completely fell apart.

    G: As a pragmatist, I find a lot of this to be silly nonsensical games and would prefer a system with more straightforward up and down voting and less need for nonsense such as filibusters (never liked them, regardless of which party was in charge…and boy are they way, way overused now) and other tactics.

  122. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 18, 2013 at 12:16 am #

    G,

    I wouldn’t have a problem with filibusters if they actually had to hold the floor to prevent a vote. This would limit them to relatively rare events which allow the minority to make a point (which is a good thing), but couldn’t obstruct the legislative process indefinitely without inordinate effort.

  123. avatar
    JPotter October 18, 2013 at 12:16 am #

    charo: Reconciliation. Both sides use rule manipulation.

    Is parliamentary procedure, and, in particular, the history of your country’s legislative bodies, a complete mystery to you?

    I thought you were (haha) “asking” whether “special rules” were employed, as if a fast one had been pulled?

    Rule manipulation would involve changing rules. What rules were created or changed in the passage of the PPACA? Reconciliation is common in the Senate. It’s a famously slow body. Without declaring limits on debate, “major” legislation would never pass it!

  124. avatar
    charo October 18, 2013 at 12:16 am #

    James M: Yes, they used an unusual rule that’s only been in place since the early 1930s and which has only been applied a few hundred times.Shocking.

    Looking into it some more, reconciliation was the plan, but then Scott Brown won the election. I guess you would find it acceptable to repeal a law such as the ACA by reconciliation? Reconciliation itself is not unusual, but the circumstances under which it is used matters.

    At the time when reconciliation was being discussed, from Huff Post
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/24/democrats-ponder-one-bill_n_267166.html

    Senate Democrats contemplating a controversial parliamentary maneuver that would allow them to pass key provisions of a health care bill with just 51 votes are exploring an option that would not require the bill to be split into two.

    Should Democrats use the procedure known as reconciliation,…

    Daughter’s math done…
    As long as Republicans act like Democrats is all that matters I suppose.

  125. avatar
    G October 18, 2013 at 12:19 am #

    AGREED!!!

    Although, sadly I’m not sure that these Teahaddi nuts are capable of learning from their mistakes. Unless the sane and non-craven members of congress can find a way to remove or prevent these extremely abusive maneuvers, I fear we will continue to be “governed by crisis” thanks to these reckless and feckless anarchists.

    Slartibartfast: I think this pattern is repeated in many places in our government—Republicans find new ways to game the system and the Democrats fail to end those abuses and prevent their occurrence in the future once they get the chance. It why I think it would have been a disaster if the Teahaddi had extorted any ransom from this debacle—that would have guaranteed that we would govern by crisis until things completely fell apart.

  126. avatar
    James M October 18, 2013 at 12:19 am #

    G:
    Good examples of some exceptions to the closure that did take place.So yeah, I think that is a fair point that there were some very small administrative actions taken to selectively get around some very tiny parts of the government shutdown.

    Not that any of that was a crime or in any way close to something that is impeachable or even seen as doing a disservice to the American people… at worst, it is merely a little bit of political pressure capitulation to certain lobbying groups – something which happens routinely even when the government is operating at full capacity – regardless of which party is in power (all that might change is which lobbying groups pressure wins out, that’s all).

    I will say again: President Obama never made any order to close any National Monument nor did he give any direct order to open any facility after it closed. If the suggestion is that he made such orders in secret, then we should probably talk about the level of Obama Conspiracy implied by Federal LEOs following Secret Orders from the President and Keeping the Secret.

  127. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 18, 2013 at 12:28 am #

    I don’t think that it’s the Teahaddi that need to learn—it’s the rest of the Republicans that need to wake up to the fact that these guys are nuts. They need to be thrown out of the party just like the Birchers were in the past, and that can only be done by the Republicans themselves.

    G:
    AGREED!!!

    Although, sadly I’m not sure that these Teahaddi nuts are capable of learning from their mistakes.Unless the sane and non-craven members of congress can find a way to remove or prevent these extremely abusive maneuvers, I fear we will continue to be “governed by crisis” thanks to these reckless and feckless anarchists.

  128. avatar
    charo October 18, 2013 at 12:29 am #

    James M: I will say again:President Obama never made any order to close any National Monument nor did he give any direct order to open any facility after it closed.If the suggestion is that he made such orders in secret, then we should probably talk about the level of Obama Conspiracy implied by Federal LEOs following Secret Orders from the President and Keeping the Secret.

    Come on James. Nancy Pelosi thanked the President for enabling the National Mall to be opened.

    Under whose authority could the Mall have been opened?

  129. avatar
    G October 18, 2013 at 12:30 am #

    To some extent I agree.

    For one, limiting such tactics to “relatively rare events which allow the minority to make a point (which is a good thing), but couldn’t obstruct the legislative process indefinitely without inordinate effort.” is something I agree with you on.

    Second, I completely agree that the ONLY type of filibustering tactic that should be allowed is the real deal of actually having to “hold the floor” as you say. None of these silly mere threats of a hint of a filibuster nonsense at all…

    However, there is a lot about even the traditional “hold the floor” filibuster that I deplore and find excessively wasteful and silly. As you said, it should be used to make a POINT…and I don’t think that merely running out the clock is a legitimate point where the serious matters of making laws for our nation are concerned. If I had a say in how a filibuster would have to work, I would insist that all time spent by the filibustering person in their attempt would have to be filled with talking ABOUT the actual issue at hand itself…in whatever level of detail and point making they can. Use metaphors, charts, stats, analogies, philosophical arguments, weigh benefits/concerns, wax poetic about the topic at hand; whatever. But as long as it was all relevant and TOPICAL to this issue and might provide either some education or some legit “swaying of hearts and minds” to anyone listening in order to legitimize the use of the tactic.

    But I’d be against any mere running out the clock by meaningless rambling, talking about non-related issues, reading a phone book or children’s book, etc.

    Slartibartfast:
    G,

    I wouldn’t have a problem with filibusters if they actually had to hold the floor to prevent a vote.This would limit them to relatively rare events which allow the minority to make a point (which is a good thing), but couldn’t obstruct the legislative process indefinitely without inordinate effort.

  130. avatar
    John Reilly October 18, 2013 at 12:40 am #

    charo: Come on James. Nancy Pelosi thanked the President for enabling the National Mall to be opened.

    Under whose authority could the Mall have been opened?

    The parks were closed because of Ted Cruz and the Tea Party. When your policy is to shut down the government, some parts of the government actually shuts down. I’m sorry that inconvenienced some WWII vets, all of whom probably get Social Security and Medicare, and all of whom previously worked in the Dept of War, the predecessor to the Dept of Defense.

    Ted Cruz and the Tea Party. That’s who did it.

  131. avatar
    G October 18, 2013 at 12:43 am #

    Agreed. Although I don’t think that will happen. The time for the GOP to do that has long passed. They’ve been too overtaken by their most cynical corporate financiers at the top and have allowed the base to become over infested and brainwashed with cancerous RWNJ mentalities. Their inmates have taken over the asylum…and these are the types of obsessive, “righteous” paranoid mindsets that never learn from mistakes and only become more obsessive and unhinged when they don’t get their way or when they screw up…

    So unfortunately, I don’t see the GOP recovering…just festering for a time, until those remaining semi-sensible ENABLERS within the party finally cut ties and form a new, more rational political body to emerge from the ashes of these modern GOP Whigs… I’m not even sure if that will happen willingly, or if the GOP will simply continue to slowly immolate (doing a lot of external harm in the process) and isolate (by the insane, now dominant factor continuing to push ever further into extremism and “purifying” out more and more within their own party that they deem “insufficiently extreme”) until they collapse under their own weight…

    Slartibartfast:
    I don’t think that it’s the Teahaddi that need to learn—it’s the rest of the Republicans that need to wake up to the fact that these guys are nuts.They need to be thrown out of the party just like the Birchers were in the past, and that can only be done by the Republicans themselves.

  132. avatar
    charo October 18, 2013 at 12:54 am #

    John Reilly: The parks were closed because of Ted Cruz and the Tea Party.When your policy is to shut down the government, some parts of the government actually shuts down.I’m sorry that inconvenienced some WWII vets, all of whom probably get Social Security and Medicare, and all of whom previously worked in the Dept of War, the predecessor to the Dept of Defense.

    Ted Cruz and the Tea Party.That’s who did it.

    From my link above:

    More than 30 World War II veterans in Las Vegas hope to make the trip to the war memorial in the nation’s capitol. In their 90s now, they realize time is running out and they need the public’s help.

    A group called Honor Flight is trying to get these veterans some measure of closure.


    (recounts a personal story) continues

    I don’t think there’s ever going to be closure. I lost, I lost too many friends. I’m hoping I’m doing something for them sometime.”

    The war left Knapp with unseen scars. Divorces, estranged children and a battle with alcohol before finally finding peace. Few people are left to attend Knapp’s funeral – whenever that may come.

    Until then, Knapp will stand watch at every ceremony he can.

    Honor Flight of Southern Nevada is trying to raise $30,000 to get 35 World War II veterans to the memorial in Washington, D.C. They hope to make their trip this October.
    ***

    What does being on social security and medicare have to do with elderly vets who planned the trip before the shutdown to honor their fallen comrades? Favor was given to one group versus another.

  133. avatar
    G October 18, 2013 at 1:07 am #

    Woah…I’m certainly NOT saying that Obama had anything to do with CLOSING these locations at all. (I’m completely with John Reilly on this – the shutdown is 100% on the GOP and especially the Teahaddists in the house as well as Cruz’s self-aggrandizing stupidity).

    When it comes to the mere fact that some events still took place, I highly doubt Obama himself had any direct involvement in any of that either (despite any hyperbolic grandstanding statement Pelosi might have made), but that would be an administrative procedure to allow those exception events of a few gatherings to go forward – and by that I merely mean the branch of government which does governance…so that could even be some low level department head who is in charge and approved the events to still go forward, despite the shutdown.

    These two minor event examples of a group gathering at those fairly public locations could have simple and sensible reasons for why they still got the go-ahead and took place. Most such events are scheduled fairly far in advance and stuff on the mall is mostly about scheduling to get a sizable gathering area set-aside, having proper sanitation facilities, taking care of trash cleanup needs and whatever security, equipment and medical emergency needs are required. Any permits required might have been addressed and paid for in advance of the shutdown for all we know. A lot of that is often provided by the event organizers themselves, at their own expense.

    So I’ve yet to see any reporting of these two specific events that details exactly what was provided “at government expense” that was outside of the actual shutdown’s impact.

    Regardless, I don’t see those exception examples as anything “bad” at all and certainly not something to complain about or be angry against the government because they still took place. I simply agree to the fact that they both took place during this time period, when other things were forced to be shutdown because of the GOP’s actions.

    James M: I will say again: President Obama never made any order to close any National Monument nor did he give any direct order to open any facility after it closed. If the suggestion is that he made such orders in secret, then we should probably talk about the level of Obama Conspiracy implied by Federal LEOs following Secret Orders from the President and Keeping the Secret.

  134. avatar
    JPotter October 18, 2013 at 1:14 am #

    Don’t let the concern trolls forget that this shutdown didn’t “just happen”. The Reds had been disingenuously, oh-so-conspicuously dropping the S-word for how many months prior to this debt ceiling ‘debate’? “Oh, no, of course we don’t want to shutdown the gov’t …”

    Yep, that’s right, ever since the last manufactured debt ceiling crisis, they’ve been playing the part of the cowardly, wannabe abusive deranged ex in a trashy trailer drama … “Baby, I don’t wanna shut down the gub’mint, but sometimes you just make me so mad. Why do you make me do these things, baby?”

  135. avatar
    G October 18, 2013 at 1:18 am #

    As I mentioned in my most recent response on this issue, most of these types of events require a lot of self-funding. So I’m fairly certain that Honor Flight would be trying to raise that $30K to get their folks there, regardless.

    As I also mentioned, there is the “timing” issue of when a group got permission/permits for an event which also might impact whether it could go forward during a shutdown or not – if this was all scheduled in advance and mostly self-funded, then it might still be able to take place, regardless. So, it seems like an “exception”, but would it really be? That is what I wonder. On the other hand, a group that just started to organize and plan such an event during the time period of a shutdown might be SOL in getting it off the ground, if there is no one paid and working in that particular government office to process the request…

    charo: Honor Flight of Southern Nevada is trying to raise $30,000 to get 35 World War II veterans to the memorial in Washington, D.C. They hope to make their trip this October.

    Charo – I think Reilly was referring to these two issues (medicare and social security) merely in terms as these are government benefits that would become impacted, should the SHUTDOWN continue. People would stop receiving these benefits at some point, had this madness not been resolved.

    I think his point here was simply that this group of vets would most likely be on both of those plans and be at risk of losing their earned benefits from those programs because of a shutdown.

    I don’t think he meant any direct correlation of that to the memorial gathering event itself. I hope that clears up any confusion.

    charo: What does being on social security and medicare have to do with elderly vets who planned the trip before the shutdown to honor their fallen comrades? Favor was given to one group versus another.

  136. avatar
    aarrgghh October 18, 2013 at 1:21 am #

    what? no whining? but teahadi tears are as such sweet ambrosia to mine lips …

  137. avatar
    charo October 18, 2013 at 1:45 am #

    Our country is in an ugly mess with improper motives assumed all around. People should be able to hold diametrically opposed philosophies without being branded traitors, kooks, non-patriots, and so on from either side. Nate SIlver and David Axelrod have spoken out that this debacle will not automatically bode against Republicans.

    Would delaying the ACA have been such a bad deal? You may find a few Pollyannas out there, but the general view is that the whole exchange system is a nightmare, worse than some of the either big roll outs that have occurred. People who do coding probably know what has happened and what is yet to come

    For every person who claims to be better off under the new law, there is another one who claims to be worse off. My husband’s employer could easily dump the employees and put them in the exchanges. The owner seems to be a decent guy and so far, appears to be planning to cover the employees. A company meeting is being held soon. I used the Kaiser calculator, and our premium would be more expensive, and that is with a subsidy. The maximum out of pocket is really high at $12,700. I don’t know what the deductible would be under a specific plan. This is a much worse deal than we have now.

  138. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 18, 2013 at 2:10 am #

    charo: Our country is in an ugly mess with improper motives assumed all around. People should be able to hold diametrically opposed philosophies without being branded traitors, kooks, non-patriots, and so on from either side.

    All ideas are not equal. Some of the people involved in this situation are kooks. The Tea Party folks are hell bent on destroying the government.

    charo: Would delaying the ACA have been such a bad deal? You may find a few Pollyannas out there, but the general view is that the whole exchange system is a nightmare, worse than some of the either big roll outs that have occurred. People who do coding probably know what has happened and what is yet to come

    Yes, delaying it would have been a bad idea because it would have been the result of political extortion. And, of course, delaying it wouldn’t get problems worked out…..it would only delay them.

    The only other similar “big roll outs” were Medicare and the Medicare Drug Program and they had their problems. Here is a story on the 1965 roll out of Medicare: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-15/medicare-had-messy-rollout-too.html

    The prescription drug program’s software had so many problems that they had to shut it down and tell pharmacies to just charge everyone $5. It took a month to get it fixed.

    charo: For every person who claims to be better off under the new law, there is another one who claims to be worse off.

    The the people who are better off are the people who couldn’t get any insurance before the law was enacted. If your husband’s employer has more than 50 employees he has to provide insurance. How much he throws in the pot for it is another matter and that may go up as it has been for years.

    At this point the information I see indicates rates are lower than was expected in many states. Will some people end up paying more than they did before? I wouldn’t be surprised but, on balance, with all the people now able to get insurance who couldn’t before it will be a better deal for everyone.

  139. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 18, 2013 at 2:15 am #

    Charo,

    ANY concessions to the legislative terrorists holding our economy at gunpoint would have been a disaster because it would have emboldened them and they would have done it again and again to enforce their agenda on the majority. If you can’t see why that would be bad for a democracy, I don’t know how to convince you, but it’s not about Obamacare, it’s that the US doesn’t negotiate with terrorists, not even when they are members of Congress.

    charo: Would delaying the ACA have been such a bad deal?

  140. avatar
    Lupin October 18, 2013 at 2:20 am #

    charo: Would delaying the ACA have been such a bad deal?

    In one word: yes. 1, you’re the only so-called first-world country without some kind of system like it, and 2. the GOP tactics make you look like a third-world country in the eyes of the world.,

  141. avatar
    James M October 18, 2013 at 2:29 am #

    charo: Should Democrats use the procedure known as reconciliation,…

    Short answer: Yes.

    How familiar are you, in general, with Congressional process?

    I am not a legal scholar and can only vaguely confirm this, but the rationale for the rule goes all the way to Hind’s Precedents (1789) and every Congress passes a resolution that resolves all of its rules, very explicitly, to Deschler, Cannon or Hind.

    Whenever there is a matter before the House that provokes popular controversy, such as the recent near-debacle with Joint Resolution 59, we often play a “telephone game” where details about the legislation are ignored in favor of distilled information. Sometimes this distilled information is roughly accurate, sometimes it is in the form of imperfect, risky analogies, and surprisingly often it comes in the form of nearly complete misinformation.

    In recent weeks, I have read countless articles, posts, and editorials written by people who have taken one principled stand or another in regards to aspects of the Congressional Budget process, the statutes governing the Treasury and it’s policies and reporting, the Affordable Care Act and various guesses and misconceptions about what is funded or “de-funded” by Congressional Budget resolution, and a hundred other topics.

    A consistent thread in this experience is that people on all sides of all these debates have reached firmly entrenched opinions based on assumptions, second-or-more-hand opinions, and sometimes what appears to be purposeful disinformation. One persistent suggestion from the past week is the subject of House Resolution 368, that this rule was an extreme, sweeping grab of power that was entirely without precedent. In my words, 368 is the House Majority (and seven members from the Minority including my Representative from Arizona’s 2nd District, which I would very much like to discuss with him), saying “we call the bluff.” This resolution stops the amendment process cold, and Sec. 2 is the shot across the bow for the Senate in terms of their “Rule 22”, which is the rule about “cloture” or “filibuster.” It’s saying that this particular piece of legislation (and only it, Joint Res. 59) does not move without the consent of the Speaker of the House (this has ample precedent).

    It’s the official glove on the floor that effectively says “the government is shutting down at midnight October 1.” It built its own controversy a week after it went into effect, when it received popular attention in the media. Because of its impact, it can easily be made to sound more outrageous than it is.

    But you asked about the Reconciliation process. That’s not really just one single process; it’s a rather complex and interesting system of rules, passed by each Congress as it is seated and appoints a Rules Committee, which literally begins by citing its authority to authorize the Speaker from 1789 etc, asserts the standing order of previous sessions of Congress and goes from there with amendments and annotations.

    I believe that it would be folly for myself or any other lay person to claim to be able to find fault with the manner in which this process has been applied in recent sessions of Congress.

    Any of you other Obots up to the task?

  142. avatar
    J.D. Sue October 18, 2013 at 3:38 am #

    Excellent comments in response to Charo’s comment seem to have covered most of my thoughts on the subject.

    I would add that many of us with experience developing requirements, specs, code, tables, etc. for insurance applications have been sitting around talking about the roll out and blowing our own minds as we imagine the complexity of it all. There is probably nothing so complex as insurance rules and data. Middle-aged, so much experience among us, so many systems and applications built, and yet none among us even qualify for insurance–until now, effective January 1st. We have waited years for this day to arrive.

    I would also suggest that Charo consider how many times the House has brought bills to the floor to repeal the ACA. Was it 41 or 42? What was the point of doing so, knowing full well that it was a complete waste of valuable time and money because the Senate and the President would never agree to pass/sign those bills? And, still knowing that the Senate and President would never agree, why did they then shut down the government (of/by/for the People) of the United States of America and put our nation’s debt and full faith & credit in doubt? There is no possible legitimate motive for doing such a useless, reckless, dangerous, misery-causing, and extremely costly thing.

  143. avatar
    James M October 18, 2013 at 4:47 am #

    charo: Would delaying the ACA have been such a bad deal?

    It was never proposed, contrary to popular understanding.

    A perception took root that the President had authority to interfere with (“negotiate”) the legislative process, and that one of the items at his disposal was to offer a “one year delay” in certain provisions of the ACA.

    If the President had authority to order such a delay (a year, or a day), then what laws would not be subject that that authority? There isn’t some doctrine that gives the President authority to put that law (111-148) on hold just because it has been nicknamed after him or for any other reason.

    Congress never produced any legislative bill which would have the effect of “delaying Obamacare” so there was nothing of the sort for the President to negotiate.

  144. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 18, 2013 at 5:16 am #

    Those cynical corporate financiers sowed the wind by using propaganda and demagoguery to fool the masses into voting them tax cuts, subsidies, and sweetheart deals and it is completely unsurprising that we are all reaping the whirlwind when people like the Koch brothers are whining that they didn’t want the teahaddi to do this. A lot will be determined when we see if the Democrats can overcome midterm election demographics and gerrymandering in the House and win a tough battle to keep the Senate. If so, then I think the Republican Party is done and there will be an opportunity for some kind of new (fiscally) conservative party to fill the vacuum with a presidential candidate in 2016, but if they can control at least one chamber then I think that they will probably have a “last hurrah” in 2016 before succumbing to the demographic tides that are pulling the party under. Even so, remember that Republican gerrymandering cannot be undone until after the 2020 election, so there will still be many districts where Republicans only have to worry about challenges from the right until then.

    G:
    Agreed.Although I don’t think that will happen.The time for the GOP to do that has long passed.They’ve been too overtaken by their most cynical corporate financiers at the top and have allowed the base to become over infested and brainwashed with cancerous RWNJ mentalities.Their inmates have taken over the asylum…and these are the types of obsessive, “righteous” paranoid mindsets that never learn from mistakes and only become more obsessive and unhinged when they don’t get their way or when they screw up…

    So unfortunately, I don’t see the GOP recovering…just festering for a time, until those remaining semi-sensible ENABLERS within the party finally cut ties and form a new, more rational political body to emerge from the ashes of these modern GOP Whigs… I’m not even sure if that will happen willingly, or if the GOP will simply continue to slowly immolate (doing a lot of external harm in the process) and isolate (by the insane, now dominant factor continuing to push ever further into extremism and “purifying” out more and more within their own party that they deem “insufficiently extreme”) until they collapse under their own weight…

  145. avatar
    Keith October 18, 2013 at 7:06 am #

    CarlOrcas: Someone needs a copy of the Constitution. It is, of course, not treason.

    FIFY

  146. avatar
    Keith October 18, 2013 at 7:16 am #

    charo: Senate Democrats contemplating a controversial parliamentary maneuver that would allow them to pass key provisions of a health care bill with just 51 votes are exploring an option that would not require the bill to be split into two.

    Passing a bill with 51 votes is not controversial. Since there are 100 votes available in the Senate, 51 votes is the actual, not controversial, target.

    Allowing a vote to take place only if 60 Senators are willing to ‘allow’ that vote, THAT is controversial.

    Think about that: a bill needs 51 votes to pass, but it needs 60 votes to be voted on.

  147. avatar
    Kate October 18, 2013 at 7:54 am #

    john:
    Just remember the House GOP can always say that Harry Reid and Obama have failed to come together in the 11th hour.I blame the government shutdown on everyone but I put the most cupability or blame on President Obama.Obama has been sadistic throughout this whole government shutdown and should be impeached on denying Veterans access to their memorials.

    What part of government shutdown don’t you understand? If President Obama had kept any of the memorials open, the RWNJ’s would have accused him of pandering to veterans! What would they have done if PBO kept them open and they were vandalized? They would have been screaming that it was all President Obama’s fault and that he was catering to veterans, which is what they did after they got caught looking like the POS each and every one of them is for closing the govt. These very same RW’ers who are crying about the veterans not having access to their memorials didn’t give a damn about them when voting for cuts to their benefits. Did you complain to your representatives about their voting against veterans, John? I doubt you were even aware because unless it has something to do with President Obama and you can twist it around, you remain freakin’ clueless.

  148. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 18, 2013 at 8:17 am #

    Having worked for decades on these things, I appreciate your comment. This is why I was so disappointed with the failure of HIPAA’s Administrative Simplification to simplify anything, and why I consider the hodgepodge of insurance companies an inefficient way of administering health insurance for the country.

    I personally think that we should extend Medicare to everyone and let private insurance companies offer “extra” coverage, like they do today for Medi-gap insurance.

    J.D. Sue: I would add that many of us with experience developing requirements, specs, code, tables, etc. for insurance applications have been sitting around talking about the roll out and blowing our own minds as we imagine the complexity of it all. There is probably nothing so complex as insurance rules and data. Middle-aged, so much experience among us, so many systems and applications built, and yet none among us even qualify for insurance–until now, effective January 1st. We have waited years for this day to arrive.

  149. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 18, 2013 at 9:56 am #

    Yes, it would have been a terrible thing. People both in the insurance industry, government, the health care sector and millions of private individuals have been making decisions based on the legislation that was passed. Postponing it for a year would be a serious disruption to people’s lives.

    Congress does not have the votes to repeal the ACA. What possible justification could there be for ignoring the law?

    charo: Would delaying the ACA have been such a bad deal?

  150. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 18, 2013 at 10:00 am #

    Requiring that meat in stores be inspected and wholesome drives up the cost of meat too. The same can be said here for really crappy insurance policies that were all people could get until now.

    CarlOrcas: At this point the information I see indicates rates are lower than was expected in many states. Will some people end up paying more than they did before? I wouldn’t be surprised but, on balance, with all the people now able to get insurance who couldn’t before it will be a better deal for everyone.

  151. avatar
    charo October 18, 2013 at 10:01 am #

    J.D. Sue:
    Excellent comments in response to Charo’s comment seem to have covered most of my thoughts on the subject.

    I would add that many of us with experience developing requirements, specs, code, tables, etc. for insurance applications have been sitting around talking about the roll out and blowing our own minds as we imagine the complexity of it all. There is probably nothing so complex as insurance rules and data.Middle-aged, so much experience among us, so many systems and applications built, and yet none among us even qualify for insurance–until now, effective January 1st.We have waited years for this day to arrive.

    I would also suggest that Charo consider how many times the House has brought bills to the floor to repeal the ACA.Was it 41 or 42?What was the point of doing so, knowing full well that it was a complete waste of valuable time and money because the Senate and the President would never agree to pass/sign those bills? And, still knowing that the Senate and President would never agree, why did they then shut down the government (of/by/for the People) of the United States of America and put our nation’s debt and full faith & credit in doubt?There is no possible legitimate motive for doing such a useless, reckless, dangerous, misery-causing, and extremely costly thing.

    Our nation’s credit has been in trouble well before the shutdown. Unless you want a single party system, BOTH sides need to work together. As former President Clinton said recently, one side is not always right (unless you are visiting particular blogs that lean one way or the other). Although he was against the shutdown, he talked about vigorous debate being good for the country.

    My point about how healthcare was passed is that the means being considered at the time were thought to be controversial by all, even if they agreed with the employment of the technique. I don’t see the ACA being a solution for the insurance problem in our country. I see role reversal occurring. The uninsured will be insured at the cost of the financial security of someone else. My husband’s employer has less than 50 employees. I have used the Kaiser calculator to be prepared. I have plugged in various numbers not just for my situation but made up ones to get a feel for the numbers. The out of pocket expenses are high in general, even with subsidies. Deductibles would depend on the plan. I went to a few websites and saw that they vary, but what is consistent is the high out of pocket expenses.

    There is a human side to both points of view. I can understand the jubilation of someone who has never had insurance. I can also see the anger of people who have worked hard through adversities of all kind, to see their income given to someone else to pay for insurance. If you are retire now and on Medicare, I don’t know if you are affected by higher premiums and out of pocket expenses or not. If the new health care law makes insurance more expensive for you, you are not going to be happy. Period. Do you realize that there are people who have ever had insurance who need to be educated about deductibles, out of pocket expenses, and co-pays? I read yesterday that a good portion of time the navigators spend is on education of how those things work.

    We will see how if the implementation of the law improves drastically, as it has to, to allow for people to actually purchase the insurance. I am leaning toward believing in a more heavily regulated industry, capping of tort liability, and stricter enforcement of abuse. I see this system as failing the populace. Just as we have winners and losers now, we will have winners and losers under this system.

    I respect your view, even if you don’t respect mine.

  152. avatar
    charo October 18, 2013 at 10:16 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Yes, it would have been a terrible thing. People both in the insurance industry, government, the health care sector and millions of private individuals have been making decisions based on the legislation that was passed. Postponing it for a year would be a serious disruption to people’s lives.

    Congress does not have the votes to repeal the ACA. What possible justification could there be for ignoring the law?

    It was delayed for businesses because they were not ready. The system does not seem ready for the individual mandate. A few anecdotal stories have been crushed by the overall perspective portrayed of the major problems with the design of the system. If someone is already sitting pretty in his or her situation, then the discussion does not have the same relevance. I personally will know in a few weeks where our family will stand.

  153. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 18, 2013 at 10:42 am #

    charo: I can also see the anger of people who have worked hard through adversities of all kind, to see their income given to someone else to pay for insurance.

    But you’re not angry when your “income” pays for someone’s visit to an emergency room to treat a problem that could have been prevented by routine preventive care?

  154. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 18, 2013 at 10:47 am #

    charo: It was delayed for businesses because they were not ready. The system does not seem ready for the individual mandate.

    The business exchanges weren’t scheduled to go on line until 2014 and were pushed back a year. The individual exchanges had just started up when the folks in the House tried to take the process hostage and reverse things. Big difference.

  155. avatar
    Dave October 18, 2013 at 10:53 am #

    I just wanted to comment about some of your concerns. You should be aware that the Kaiser calculator only estimates the average premiums and coverage for so-called “silver” plans, which in general have higher deductibles than most employer plans. Should you find yourself on the exchange, you will have options for plans with lower deductibles. And it wouldn’t be surprising if your premium on the exchange was higher, since right now your husband’s employer is presumably paying most of it.

    You don’t mention why you think your husband’s employer might discontinue insurance. Is there any reason, or are you just speculating?

    charo:

    My husband’s employer could easily dump the employees and put them in the exchanges.The owner seems to be a decent guy and so far, appears to be planning to cover the employees.A company meeting is being held soon.I used the Kaiser calculator, and our premium would be more expensive, and that is with a subsidy.Themaximum out of pocket is really high at $12,700. I don’t know what the deductible would be under a specific plan. This is a much worse deal than we have now.

  156. avatar
    charo October 18, 2013 at 10:57 am #

    CarlOrcas: But you’re not angry when your “income” pays for someone’s visit to an emergency room to treat a problem that could have been prevented by routine preventive care?

    First of all, I don’t have clarification on my situation yet. But if our insurance ends up costing more, how was our family helped? I have used the Kaiser calculator I know essentially what costs will be. Premiums are more. Out of pocket expenses are more. I don’t know about the deductible. This will happen if the employer drops the employees.

    Because you asked the question, I assume I won’t be accused of assuming victim status if I explain my answer. I probably would struggle with anger if our premiums go up so that I have to drop some important activities for my children for which I am paying through working late at night to have the extra income. I am human.

  157. avatar
    charo October 18, 2013 at 11:06 am #

    Dave:
    I just wanted to comment about some of your concerns. You should be aware that the Kaiser calculator only estimates the average premiums and coverage for so-called “silver” plans, which in general have higher deductibles than most employer plans. Should you find yourself on the exchange, you will have options for plans with lower deductibles. And it wouldn’t be surprising if your premium on the exchange was higher, since right now your husband’s employer is presumably paying most of it.

    You don’t mention why you think your husband’s employer might discontinue insurance. Is there any reason, or are you just speculating?

    I wasn’t surprised the premiums would be higher. Working hard to get a job with benefits is presumably the goal of working people. The employer has been so good about many issues that I would be surprised if he dropped the employees. But he is a businessman. I will be grateful if my situation does not change. There is a trade off with lower deductibles; the premiums are much higher.

    Here is my general information:

    Health Insurance premium in 2014 (for a silver plan, before tax credit):
    $14,103 per year
    You could receive a government tax credit subsidy of up to:
    $8,389 per year
    (which covers 59% of the overall premium)
    Amount you pay for the premium:
    $5,714 per year
    (which equals ****% of your household income and covers 41% of the overall premium)

    Other Levels of Coverage

    The premium and subsidy amounts above are based on a Silver plan. You have the option to apply the subsidy toward the purchase of other levels of coverage, such as a Gold plan (which would be more comprehensive) or a Bronze plan (which would be less comprehensive).

    For example, you could enroll in a Bronze plan for about $3,300 per year (which is ****% of your household income, after taking into account $8,389 in subsidies). For most people, the Bronze plan represents the minimum level of coverage required under health reform. Although you would pay less in premiums by enrolling in a Bronze plan, you will face higher out-of-pocket costs than if you enrolled in a Silver plan.
    Out of Pocket Costs

    Your out-of-pocket maximum for a Silver plan (not including the premium) can be no more than $12,700. Whether you reach this maximum level will depend on the amount of health care services you use. Currently, about one in four people use no health care services in any given year.

    You are guaranteed access to a Silver plan with an actuarial value of 70%. This means that for all enrollees in a typical population, the plan will pay for 70% of expenses in total for covered benefits, with enrollees responsible for the rest. If you choose to enroll in a Bronze plan, the actuarial value will be 60%, meaning your out-of-pocket costs when you use services will likely be higher. Regardless of which level of coverage you choose, deductibles and copayments will vary from plan to plan, and out-of-pocket costs will depend on your health care expenses. Preventive services will be covered with no cost sharing required.

  158. avatar
    gorefan October 18, 2013 at 11:12 am #

    In other news:

    Vermont Supreme Court rules in Paige v. Obama

    “Appeal dismissed as moot.”

    http://info.libraries.vermont.gov/supct/current/op2012-439.html

    “His claim is a generalized grievance, in common with anyone sharing his interpretation of Article II. “

  159. avatar
    G October 18, 2013 at 11:18 am #

    I actually see this process as a slow immolation. No matter how crazy they are, they are simply too entrenched at this point and too safe in gerrymandered districts. Not to mention chock full of a delusional base that actually thinks self-harm to the country for spite points is a good thing…

    So I see the GOP civil war and broader public disgust with them still being a slower burn immolation process than you are describing. The crazies have lots of well funded think tanks, which can now operate outside of the “establishment money” circles. I highly doubt that even potential losses in 2014 will break them from this mania or take their malignant, festering remains of a party down. I’m pretty sure that 2016 will have a very vocal and very crazy GOP clown car primary, with lots of big money driving it. I certainly don’t see them winning the General Election cycle then, but I think they’ll just keep doubling down on the insanity through that cycle regardless.

    Now, will a big loss in 2016 finally break them? That, I don’t know. It is hard for reality to get through to those who are utterly detached from and opposed to it. So I see it as a longer-term splintering and immolation that we’ll just have to somehow, survive through as a country. But yeah an extended additional loss in 2020, plus new redistricting then (with the possibility of also starting to lose TX by then) might finally be the straw that breaks them enough to truly motivate abandoning the GOP and creating a new, more sane party alternative to replace them.

    Slartibartfast: A lot will be determined when we see if the Democrats can overcome midterm election demographics and gerrymandering in the House and win a tough battle to keep the Senate. If so, then I think the Republican Party is done and there will be an opportunity for some kind of new (fiscally) conservative party to fill the vacuum with a presidential candidate in 2016, but if they can control at least one chamber then I think that they will probably have a “last hurrah” in 2016 before succumbing to the demographic tides that are pulling the party under. Even so, remember that Republican gerrymandering cannot be undone until after the 2020 election, so there will still be many districts where Republicans only have to worry about challenges from the right until then.

  160. avatar
    charo October 18, 2013 at 11:19 am #

    We will all see how the situation plays out the next few months. By then, we will be on the verge of default again…

  161. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 18, 2013 at 11:24 am #

    charo: First of all, I don’t have clarification on my situation yet. But if our insurance ends up costing more, how was our family helped? I have used the Kaiser calculator I know essentially what costs will be. Premiums are more.

    Are you comparing what you are seeing from the Kaiser estimator (Dave explains it in another message) and what your co-pay is with your husband’s employer? Do you know what the employer pays for your insurance? What is your co-pay?

    Comparing the two is bound to create a disparity.

    charo: I probably would struggle with anger if our premiums go up so that I have to drop some important activities for my children for which I am paying through working late at night to have the extra income. I am human.

    Hasn’t the co-pay on your husband’s insurance gone up? We’ve been retired for three years but before that my wife and I owned a couple businesses with just under 50 employees and our premiums had gone up every year since the late 90’s.

    Each year we absorbed most of the increase but our employee’s co-pay also went up.

  162. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 18, 2013 at 11:28 am #

    charo:
    We will all see how the situation plays out the next few months. By then, we will be on the verge of default again…

    That will only happen if the couple dozen Tea Party folks in the House try to take Congress and the nation hostage again. .

  163. avatar
    Rickey October 18, 2013 at 11:51 am #

    gorefan:
    In other news:

    Vermont Supreme Court rules in Paige v. Obama

    “Appeal dismissed as moot.”

    http://info.libraries.vermont.gov/supct/current/op2012-439.html

    “His claim is a generalized grievance, in common with anyone sharing his interpretation of Article II. ”

    Another Apuzzo fail. I’m still waiting for him to admit that there was no Pakistan travel ban.

  164. avatar
    charo October 18, 2013 at 11:54 am #

    CarlOrcas: Are you comparing what you are seeing from the Kaiser estimator (Dave explains it in another message) and what your co-pay is with your husband’s employer? Do you know what the employer pays for your insurance? What is your co-pay?

    Comparing the two is bound to create a disparity.

    Hasn’t the co-pay on your husband’s insurance gone up? We’ve been retired for three years but before that my wife and I owned a couple businesses with just under 50 employees and our premiums had gone up every year since the late 90′s.

    Each year we absorbed most of the increase but our employee’s co-pay also went up.

    Of course there is a disparity. Any changes are strictly the result of the new law. The purpose of the meeting states that the new health care law changes will be discussed. My husband started with a new company two years ago (prior employer insurance did not change drastically, only once). His premium was about the same for each year; this May the co-pay for a specialist went down. Now there is a meeting coming up. The only comment made about health care was a month ago to smokers, saying quit or pay more. No one knows what will happen yet.

    I worked for a school district for two years recently. I respect educators (I have a teaching degree and taught), but it is ridiculous how little the public school system in my state requires employees to pay, and they whine about any increase. My insurance was tremendous. I had zero complaints; my deductible was zero and the cost for the kids and myself was less than $30 per paycheck.

    Teachers unions are affiliated with what party?

    I don’t have anything more to say on the matter. Everyone has his or her own situation that impacts viewpoints.

  165. avatar
    gorefan October 18, 2013 at 11:57 am #

    Rickey: I’m still waiting for him to admit that there was no Pakistan travel ban.

    To paraphrase Luke:

    “Heaven and earth will pass away, but Mario will not admit a mistake.”

  166. avatar
    charo October 18, 2013 at 12:02 pm #

    When I mean of course there is a disparity, that is the benefit of having a job with insurance. The employer takes on a significant amount of the insurance cost to attract employees. When you have expectations about the cost of your healthcare, it is hard to absorb a change that is several thousand dollars’ impact. Not just hard but impossible for some.

    I don’t know how else to tell you that if my husband’s employer drops the employees, as is his perogative, we will have to absorb a much higher cost.

  167. avatar
    Rickey October 18, 2013 at 12:04 pm #

    charo: First of all, I don’t have clarification on my situation yet.But if our insurance ends up costing more, how was our family helped? I have used the Kaiser calculator I know essentially what costs will be.Premiums are more. Out of pocket expenses are more. I don’t know about the deductible. This will happen if the employer drops the employees.

    Premiums have been going up every year forever, Obamacare or no Obamacare. Do you believe that your premiums would have remained the same if there were no Obamacare?

    And it isn’t just about your family or my family. The biggest benefit of Obamacare will be for the millions of Americans who currently have no health insurance, either because they can’t afford it or can’t get it because of pre-existing conditions. If I have to pay a little more to help everyone else out, I’m good with that.

  168. avatar
    gorefan October 18, 2013 at 12:06 pm #

    Rickey: Another Apuzzo fail.

    BTW, this ruling would seem to be a good indicator of how Alabama will rule.

  169. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 18, 2013 at 12:06 pm #

    Would anyone be willing to share Mike Zullo’s email address? If so, put it in the Contact Form for me. Someone is trying to get in touch with him, and asked me.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/contact-2/

  170. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 18, 2013 at 12:08 pm #

    Keep in mind that we all pay higher hospital costs to cover the indigent care that Hospitals are required by law to provide. That is one of the hidden drivers of the steady increase in health care costs and insurance premiums.

    Rickey: And it isn’t just about your family or my family. The biggest benefit of Obamacare will be for the millions of Americans who currently have no health insurance, either because they can’t afford it or can’t get it because of pre-existing conditions. If I have to pay a little more to help everyone else out, I’m good with that.

  171. avatar
    Arthur October 18, 2013 at 12:12 pm #

    Rickey: If I have to pay a little more to help everyone else out, I’m good with that.

    I feel exactly the same way.

  172. avatar
    charo October 18, 2013 at 12:18 pm #

    Rickey: Premiums have been going up every year forever, Obamacare or no Obamacare. Do you believe that your premiums would have remained the same if there were no Obamacare?

    And it isn’t just about your family or my family. The biggest benefit of Obamacare will be for the millions of Americans who currently have no health insurance, either because they can’t afford it or can’t get it because of pre-existing conditions. If I have to pay a little more to help everyone else out, I’m good with that.

    Good for you Rickey, if you can afford to pay out more, My guess is that you are pretty well set for insurance. All I can do is relate my circumstances. When I was a teacher, I was under a HMO. I wasn’t a sickly person and did not have any pre-exisitng conditions. I had a pretty good deal in the Florida system at the time. I went back to school and worked as a public servant in a different state. I had a good deal on insurance. I stayed home and went on my husband’s insurance. His plan was pretty good. We had no deductible for awhile, but that eventually went to $500 with the employer covering the rest. Co-pays were reasonable. The company downsized. He went through a couple of jobs, but the insurance was always reasonable. In the meantime, when I went back to work, I explained above how good my insurance was. I decided to work from home. My husband did not have to pay a premium but when he had to add us, the cost went to around $300 a month with a $1000 deductible. Reasonable. You allow for the possibility of reasonable increases. When the increase gets into the thousands, well you may be able to handle that,others cannot.

    That is my position. I feel sorry for anyone who was not able to get coverage because of pre-existing conditions. My husband has one and when he lost his job, he could not get coverage. The state was taking no more applicants for those who had been without insurance because of pre-existing conditions.

    When you have underage children, would you be more concerned about their welfare or the welfare of someone else? It is a moral struggle. What are you willing to give up for a loved one? I am speaking rhetorically. I help others when I am able to. I love St. Jude’s.

    We could go round and round for days.

  173. avatar
    Daniel October 18, 2013 at 12:29 pm #

    charo:

    I don’t know how else to tell you that if the employer drops the employees, as he can, we will have to absorb a much higher cost.

    If an employer drops employees, which if it happens is more likely to be ODS rather than any actual cost, perhaps you should be blaming the employer? It’s hardly fair to compare apples with oranges, ie your cost when subsidized by your employer vs your cost when not. Just sayin’

    If an employer drops employees because they hate who the people elected, that’s hardly the person elected’s fault.

    It’s hard to believe it’s for monetary reasons, since very few, if any, businesses will have to pay more to provide the same benefit under ACA, and most will pay less.

    In the end, when comparing apples to apples, it’s highly unlikely you’ll be paying more under ACA. If it does turn out that you do, well that’s a shame, but hardly a reason to dump a plan which protects and benefits millions, just because a few end up disadvantaged. Aren’t we all in this for the greater good, the good of the nation?

    We’re practically the only civilized country left, liberal or conservative, that hasn’t figured out that health care is not one of those things best left to the free market. I’m a Conservative, through and through, but I’m not stupid. There’s some things the free market does better, and some things government does better. You’d have to be stupid tho think private roads and private armies for hire were better than government administered roads and military. The rest of the world has known what we should have known years ago, that the Government is better at making sure poor people don’t die when they get sick.

    People like Cruz and Limbaugh might want to fight for their “right” to keep us chained up in the 18th century, but that’s not conservatism, that’s foolishness.

  174. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 18, 2013 at 12:44 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Would anyone be willing to share Mike Zullo’s email address? If so, put it in the Contact Form for me. Someone is trying to get in touch with him, and asked me.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/contact-2/

    Has the person tried the “Contact Us” pages on the posse and MCSO websites?

    http://www.mcsoccp.org/joomla/index.php/contactmcsoccp

    http://www.mcso.org/ContactUs/ContactUs.aspx

    If nothing else it would be interesting to see what kind of response a message for Zullo produces from the MCSO website.

  175. avatar
    donna October 18, 2013 at 12:45 pm #

    SOMEONE should ASK cruz’s WIFE’S employer, goldman sachs, what they think of rafael “ted” cruz

    She is a vice president in the Private Wealth Management Group at Goldman Sachs, Texas. She and her two partners work with clients to implement high net worth portfolios across a range of investments and asset classes, including complex derivatives products, private equity, hedge funds, single stock risk management, U.S. and international equities, and fixed income.

    Goldman’s Jan Hatzius: shutdown could cut GDP growth to 2%

    Jan Hatzius, Goldman Sachs’ chief economist, wrote in a note Friday that the shutdown could shave about 0.5 percent off the next quarter’s GDP growth. Hatzius’ 0.5 prediction may seem small, but if it proves true, it could have a big impact. Initially, Hatzius predicted the economy would grow by 2.5 percent, so cutting the forecast by 0.5 percent marks a 20 percent drop.

  176. avatar
    Dave B. October 18, 2013 at 12:57 pm #

    Okay, he knows where the edge is.

    john: Throughout this ordeal I have to agree with Gallup that Obama is the antichrist. Obama is sadistic and takes pleasure punishing the American People. Obama hates the military with passion which is why he has lashed strongly against our Vets by closing their memorials and denying them benefits. Obama then just kicks his feet back and watches the American People suffer. The only people Obama really cares about are his illegal alien supporters, convicted felons and terrorists and welfare people.

    john:
    Maybe I should send an email to White House to ask Obama this question – Since its OK to put barricades up blocking access to the WWII Memorial, would be OK if lay on top of the Vietnam Memorial to take a knap? (There is a lot walking at Washington DC and I get tired.The Vietnam Memorial would great place the rest, lounge and take a knap)

    john:
    I sent the following letter to the Arlington National Cemetery Administration:

    Dear Administration,

    When the government reopens, I am planning on taking a trip to Washington DC.I plan to visit Arlington National Cemetery.I am an avid treasure hunter and I am asking permission if I can metal detect on the grounds of Arlington National Cemetery.Millions of people visit the cemetery and I want to metal detect around some of the green and the graves.I would promise to fill any holes I made and the administration can even keep an eye on me to be sure I fill in the holes I make at some the graves.I know this is an unusual request by I understand the National Park Service with approval of the President placed barricades in front of the memorials including the WWII Memorial denying Vets access to them.It seems this was OK with National Park Service and President so I don’t see why there be would a problem to allow me to metal detect around the green and the graves of Arlington National Cemetery.Thank you for your time in this matter and I look forward to quick response.

  177. avatar
    Kiwiwriter October 18, 2013 at 12:57 pm #

    Steve: Just to clarify, I’m not making that claim, the author is. Reed has had his share of issues with Obama, also, it seems, with black people in general, going back to when he was a young Army officer and a black mess sergeant mouthed off to him and was not punished.

    In other words, Mr. Reed has a penknife to grind against blacks in general and one in particular. Anyway, a young officer should listen to his sergeants.

    And the Constitution defines treason pretty clearly…giving aid to a foreign power in time of war, and requires witnesses. Closing a National Park Service site doesn’t aid a foreign power…unless the North Koreans or Al-Qaeda are going to deploy a nuclear missile at the Vietnam Veterans’ Memorial.

    This corrosive rhetoric is ghastly.

  178. avatar
    James M October 18, 2013 at 1:08 pm #

    donna: SOMEONE should ASK cruz’s WIFE’S employer, goldman sachs, what they think of rafael “ted” cruz

    Business people tend to give unsatisfying diplomatic answers when faced with controversial questions.

  179. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 18, 2013 at 1:19 pm #

    charo: When you have underage children, would you be more concerned about their welfare or the welfare of someone else? It is a moral struggle.

    Bigger question: Why should it be a struggle? We are the richest nation in the world. That anyone in this country should have to worry about paying for their health care is shameful.

  180. avatar
    James M October 18, 2013 at 1:30 pm #

    charo: I don’t know how else to tell you that if my husband’s employer drops the employees, as is his perogative, we will have to absorb a much higher cost.

    If a business owner or an executive board were to open the books as a case study to show actual cost and risk impacts of the ACA, illustrating how specific obligations or liabilities created by Public Law 111-148 has required these decisions and also showing exactly how such decisions mitigated these liabilities or risks, they will be the first to do so.

    If one of the public corporations whose executives have made public statements about the impacts of “Obamacare” were to actually enumerate these losses or risks in their regulatory filings and compulsory statements to analysts and investors, it will be without precedent. My conclusion is that, while some of these corporate executives are comfortable making public comments in opposition to “Obamacare”, they say very different things where the reports are considered testimony and where accuracy and adherence to fact becomes a matter of law. In other words, they lied to me, which is not a crime, but they didn’t put that lie into writing where false statements can lead to prison sentences for executives, or at best, a career ending for a Controller or other Financial Officer.

    Now you may reflect back one or more of the popular counterexamples, such as UPS, which altered a policy on spousal coverage so that working spouses who are covered under their own workplace policies are not eligible for dependent coverage under the UPS benefits. If that decision was made due to the ACA, the exact rationale was never disclosed, so it is impossible to draw such a conclusion. In any case, nobody was denied health insurance in that example.

    Companies like UPS and Delta Air Lines made business decisions based on supposed costs associated with the ACA, but they never put a shred of evidence forward to support their assertions about the nature or the extent of these costs. I am not, as a private individual, entitled to such evidence, but analysts, investors, and regulators certainly are entitled and for them, these companies are totally silent on the matter in their filings.

    That means I’m being asked to draw conclusions based on public statements and interpretations in the media, but not on evidence. I’m not going to do that,

    Bringing it back to you. Is there actually a suggestion that your husband’s employer is going to drop its staff or cut hours? If a company takes a radical action like that, I would suggest that there are more factors at work than the cost of health benefits. I would even wager that if a company’s public statements imply that such decisions are made based on the cost of health care benefits, if you were to examine their balance sheets and forecasts, you would not find this rationale in the numbers.

  181. avatar
    charo October 18, 2013 at 2:07 pm #

    I doubt he would do it for the reason that he seems to be a benevolent employer. If he dropped it, he would have no insurance expense. Providing healthcare is bothersome. No penalty because he has fewer than 50 employees.

    We have to consider the possibility, even if it is remote or to allow for unforeseen circumstances. I always knew that by being employed and having insurance, the employer was paying the bulk. It is part of the job search. What are the insurance benefits?

    If you are a public employee, you will not bear the same sacrifices as the public sector. I was the beneficiary of both the public system and a union contract. I would not have opposed paying more (reasonably) for healthcare if paying more would truly benefit another. Try saying that to a union rep. If we went to a single payer system, the people complaining would be the ones who don’t have to pay much or anything at all.

  182. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 18, 2013 at 2:18 pm #

    charo: I doubt he would do it for the reason that he seems to be a benevolent employer. If he dropped it, he would have no insurance expense. Providing healthcare is bothersome. No penalty because he has fewer than 50 employees.

    The penalty may not be financial. Dropping health insurance devastates employee morale, which impacts productivity and increases turnover. It’s a vicious cycle and its costs can far exceed any penalties or insurance premiums.

  183. avatar
    James M October 18, 2013 at 2:37 pm #

    CarlOrcas: We’ve been retired for three years but before that my wife and I owned a couple businesses with just under 50 employees and our premiums had gone up every year since the late 90′s.

    It is exceedingly rare for people who have actually been responsible for a corporate health benefit program to make a reasoned argument for or against the public health law currently under discussion. It is rarer still to see independently verifiable data as to what fractions of their operating costs are devoted to compensation and benefits.

    I’ve been asked to believe that for some companies, the cost of providing health benefits has literally exceeded their cost of acquiring, retaining, and compensating talent. I refuse to believe that without evidence.

  184. avatar
    charo October 18, 2013 at 2:48 pm #

    CarlOrcas: The penalty may not be financial. Dropping health insurance devastates employee morale, which impacts productivity and increases turnover. It’s a vicious cycle and its costs can far exceed any penalties or insurance premiums.

    The exchanges are available and supposed to be great, right?

  185. avatar
    MattR October 18, 2013 at 2:49 pm #

    James M: Companies like UPS and Delta Air Lines made business decisions based on supposed costs associated with the ACA, but they never put a shred of evidence forward to support their assertions about the nature or the extent of these costs.

    Are you suggesting that companies might realize that publically stating that they are cutting benefits (or jobs) in order to increase profits would be unpopular so they find some other “reason” to justify the decision? That is ludicrous. 😉

  186. avatar
    James M October 18, 2013 at 2:58 pm #

    charo: When I mean of course there is a disparity, that is the benefit of having a job with insurance.

    I believe my situation is not unique. In my professional field I face a stark decision between two basic choices: 1.) Work independently, where my expertise commands a very high hourly rate, an income level commensurate with mid-career professionals in professional fields with high education and licensing requirements.
    2.) Work as an employee in a firm, for W-2 wages and benefits.

    I would greatly prefer Option 1, but have chosen a different path — and have largely closed the door on ‘1’ due in large part to the health insurance question. See, my income level would easily support the high cost of private health insurance. I would have been grudgingly willing to pay up to the $2,000 per month range for individual coverage that had realistic prescription drug payments and high deductibles for major hospitalization, but no such plan was available. I don’t mean it would be merely “expensive”. I mean I was bluntly and totally denied any coverage whatsoever, as recently as 2012, due to my age and a set of relatively minor pre-existing medical conditions. Denied coverage, at any price.

    I want to repeat that so that it might sink in: In 2012, more than a year after the passage of the ACA with its prohibition against denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions, I was denied health insurance at any price, and was even subjected to quite rude treatment by an insurance agent from a company I will not name (but it was Aetna). This shocked me. But it did something else, much more serious.

    I considered for about a millisecond that I could simply pay COBRA payments for a while. That would have been just under $1800 for a fairly good plan, but I had to think about what would happen after my COBRA eligibility ran out, not to mention the pain of laying out that much cash just for insurance coverage. I would have to gamble that the ACA provisions going into effect in January would be of sufficient benefit to me to take this risk.

    I did not take the risk.

    I don’t want to sound arrogant here, but I do want to be serious and honest. My field suffers more from my absence as a practitioner than I suffer from my choice to take a “day job” working for someone else whose company benefits include a quite attractive health benefit, for which my pre-existing conditions do not affect eligibility, rates, or coverage.

    On the other hand, I’m working for someone else, on a lateral career track, tangent to my professional specialty. I am also enjoying significantly diminished cash compensation compared to my earning potential if I were working independently. I am also slamming the door shut on those opportunities, and I consider this opportunity cost to be immense.

    Nonetheless, I and my spouse understand that I am at relatively high and increasing risk of facing the Thinkable, a health catastrophe that would make all these career decisions into the least of my concerns. I realize well that things like health insurance and disability coverage and all those nice things that we privileged white collar workers enjoy, are only offsets to the monumental costs when those circumstances fall on us, but I also know that it is better to have that safety than to be without it.

    This was one of the most important and stressful decision points in my entire life, and I am not young nor have I had an uncomplicated life.

    Take from this whatever you like or ignore it, but if you read it, thank you.

  187. avatar
    James M October 18, 2013 at 3:15 pm #

    charo: Providing healthcare is bothersome.

    The biggest problem I see is that in a small company, it is too easy for the people who make various types of decisions to have entirely too much personal knowledge about the health concerns of the employee and his dependents. No law can prevent a person from using inappropriate knowledge in a decision making process.

    I have some resentment for the fact that a person in my company’s HR department knows what medication my spouse takes and for what purposes. That’s one of the most private details that I do not enjoy being shared with anyone, least of all my employers, who, even if they were medical doctors, would not be designated by me for treatment or access to protected health information.

    My hope is that legislative health care reform, in the long run, will further separate the workplace from inappropriate knowledge of the health concerns of workers.

    I consider it a significant flaw that health concerns are mixed in with workplace concerns in the first place.

  188. avatar
    James M October 18, 2013 at 3:17 pm #

    MattR: Are you suggesting that companies might realize that publically stating that they are cutting benefits (or jobs) in order to increase profits would be unpopular so they find some other “reason” to justify the decision?That is ludicrous.

    I’m sure they are all 100% honest, and just didn’t think they needed to support their claims for analysts and investors. 🙂

  189. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 18, 2013 at 3:22 pm #

    James M: I’ve been asked to believe that for some companies, the cost of providing health benefits has literally exceeded their cost of acquiring, retaining, and compensating talent. I refuse to believe that without evidence.

    I don’t believe it either.

    Recruiting people is incredibly expensive and time consuming. You also have to deal with staff shortages and training. A giant pain in the butt.

    Hiring the cheapest candidate, and providing no benefits, only sets you up to go through the whole process sooner (when they have the skills to get a better job) than later. A slow economy can slow down this process but not much, in my experience.

    Off the top of my head here are some numbers that may help tell the tale.

    In the beginning (early 90’s) we paid the entire portion of the employee’s insurance. By 2010 we were paying about 80%. Throughout that time they could insure their dependents but they had to pay for it. We deducted it from their paycheck along with their portion.

    As my wife and I recall the cost per employee was about $300 to $400 a month at the end. Rates had been going up steadily and sometimes dramatically since 2000.

    So….that’s $3,600 to $4,800 a year for employees who grossed, depending on their job, $25,000 to $125,000. Most were bunched in the $50,000 and up area.

    There are several ways to look at health care costs in addition to how they show up on the Profit and Loss Statement: As a percentage of the employee’s gross pay or as a factor of revenue.

    One company was a manufacturing operation with few employees so as a factor of G&A or Manufacturing expenses insurance was very low…..especially for manufacturing where the cost of raw material was the big factor.

    The other company was a service operation with lots of employees and the broadest range of salaries.

    Without boring everyone with too much detail I can tell you I looked at the question many times over nearly 20 years and never could even come to close to making a case that we would be better off not providing insurance. Just the opposite.

    The bottom line is that at its peak health insurance accounted for between 2% and 3% of our gross revenue. It was always my opinion that it wouldn’t take much employee dissatisfaction and turnover to kick off a much greater revenue decline. Am I sure? No. But I wasn’t willing to gamble…..for the sake of the company and the employees.

  190. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 18, 2013 at 3:33 pm #

    charo: The exchanges are available and supposed to be great, right?

    The availability of exchanges does not ameliorate the other problems with morale, efficiency and productivity.

  191. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 18, 2013 at 3:34 pm #

    James M: I consider it a significant flaw that health concerns are mixed in with workplace concerns in the first place.

    I agree. My wife handled all of that for our company and was very careful to protect people’s information.

    A single payer system or a simple extension of Medicare would solve that problem.

  192. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 18, 2013 at 3:39 pm #

    James M: This was one of the most important and stressful decision points in my entire life, and I am not young nor have I had an uncomplicated life.

    Take from this whatever you like or ignore it, but if you read it, thank you.

    Multiply your situation times millions of people – 10’s of millions, at least – and you get another problem with our current system…..reducing or limiting options for people…..options that could be better for them and the country.

    Without prying how does the ACA help you with your situation and your ability to get out on your own?

  193. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 18, 2013 at 3:41 pm #

    I hope you’re a very patient man…

    Rickey: Another Apuzzo fail. I’m still waiting for him to admit that there was no Pakistan travel ban.

  194. avatar
    Daniel October 18, 2013 at 3:53 pm #

    charo: The exchanges are available and supposed to be great, right?

    The exchange is not intended to be a way for employers to be able to underhandedly boot their employees off of their benefit package.

    The exchange has nothing to do with employee benefits in an existing employer/employee relationship. Again, if you’re employer is blaming ACA as an excuse to stop providing benefits you previously had, then you need to blame the employer, not the ACA.

  195. avatar
    MattR October 18, 2013 at 4:06 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Without prying how does the ACA help you with your situation and your ability to get out on your own?

    Excellent comments from both James M and yourself. I am one more of those millions whose employment options are limited because of a pre-existing condition. I worked very briefly as an independent contractor when I was in my 20’s, but I had another job lined up and maintained coverage via COBRA (and it was when I was too young to be diagnosed with the condition I had a 50% chance of inheriting). Several years ago, after my diagnosis, I was unable to join my friend’s startup because of the insurance issue. The startup actually did pretty well and was recently sold to a huge corporation, so obviously my expertise wasn’t vital. But it did harm me financially and creatively to pass on that opportunity. And I am sure there are tons of startups that fail (or are never formed) because the necessary people are unable to leave their current jobs.

    To answer your specific question about the ACA, I have poked around the federal site and used their comparison tool to see prices (since I know I am not eligble for a subsidy) but I have not done detailed analysis of each plan. It looked like plans that were largely equivalent to my current employer provided plan cost in the 375-425 range. That is significantly more than the 175 I pay right now, but also less than the 475 we combine to pay for my current plan. But even though my cost would be significantly more it is also only $3000 a year (or let’s double it to $6000 if I have to pay taxes on that money first). Those are significant numbers if you are trying to add them to your current budget, but if we are talking about becoming an independent contractor where you expect to make more money, then those numbers are not very likely to be the deciding factor. I am happy with my current job and have no desire to leave, but it is nice to know that my options are much greater with Obamacare than without.

  196. avatar
    James M October 18, 2013 at 4:41 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Recruiting people is incredibly expensive and time consuming.

    Thanks for your comments CarlOrcas.

    One of my responsibilities right now is recruiting and hiring. I know there are people who honestly believe that any kind of job availability means there should be a line out the door. That’s far from the case. Even an attractive job with a living wage and benefits is difficult, time consuming and expensive to recruit for a position. Even when you have a deal closing, you face competition. I didn’t believe this until recently, when I had my first experiences on the hiring side of the interview table.

  197. avatar
    James M October 18, 2013 at 4:43 pm #

    charo: The exchanges are available and supposed to be great, right?

    The ability to offer health insurance benefit subsidies is a competitive advantage, and reasonable decision makers recognize this fact.

    Business decisions that seek to eliminate a competitive advantage are usually quashed when proposed. This is no different.

  198. avatar
    J.D. Sue October 18, 2013 at 5:07 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I consider the hodgepodge of insurance companies an inefficient way of administering health insurance for the country.
    I personally think that we should extend Medicare to everyone and let private insurance companies offer “extra” coverage, like they do today for Medi-gap insurance.


    I completely agree.

  199. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 18, 2013 at 5:39 pm #

    MattR: And I am sure there are tons of startups that fail (or are never formed) because the necessary people are unable to leave their current jobs.

    I’ve had asthma and related problems since I was a child and, like most of us, developed high blood pressure, high cholesterol, etc., in my 50’s and ended up with a couple stents in my heart and….surprise, surprise….the total inability to acquire personal insurance when I needed it for a couple years.

    We were lucky. I had no problems during that period and am now on Medicare which is a piece of cake compared to any insurance plan I was ever on.

    How do you calculate the cost of lost opportunities? Or, worse, the angst that being uninsured causes? I don’t know but it has to be considerable.

  200. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 18, 2013 at 5:58 pm #

    James M: I didn’t believe this until recently, when I had my first experiences on the hiring side of the interview table.

    Yes, indeed, a real eyeopener! Before doing it for our own companies I spent nearly 20 years doing it for other people…..large corporations……and I was always amazed at how cavalier some people could be about the problems you create when make bad hires or, worse, treat good hires like crap.

  201. avatar
    J.D. Sue October 18, 2013 at 6:01 pm #

    charo: I can understand the jubilation of someone who has never had insurance. I can also see the anger of people who have worked hard through adversities of all kind, to see their income given to someone else to pay for insurance.

    —-

    I think most of the people who are jubilant are people who always had insurance, until they were prescribed a medication or developed a health issue and thereby became completely uninsurable. Can you see the anger of these people, who ALSO have worked hard through adversities of all kinds–and have also faced the added adversity of having their insurance cancelled and not being able to see a doctor?

    charo: I am leaning toward believing in a more heavily regulated industry, capping of tort liability

    Advocates for tort reform soon adamantly change their tune as soon as they personally experience an injury and discover that they will have to eat their losses due to a cap on liability of the person whose negligence caused the injury.

    IMO, caps on tort liability are completely unconstitutional. The Seventh Amendment guarantees the right to a jury trial in civil lawsuits. The role of such a jury is to determine liability. A legislative cap on liability deprives the individual of the right to have a jury make the decision–not the government.

  202. avatar
    J.D. Sue October 18, 2013 at 6:11 pm #

    The Onion has a nice article on the ACA, Republicans, and the President.

    “Republicans Give In Right Before Obamacare Would Have Been Repealed” http://www.theonion.com/articles/republicans-give-in-right-before-obamacare-would-h,34246/

  203. avatar
    Rickey October 18, 2013 at 6:19 pm #

    charo: The exchanges are available and supposed to be great, right?

    I suggest that you read this article written by a former aide to Governor Schweitzer of Montana.

    http://www.salon.com/2013/10/18/inside_the_fox_news_lie_machine_i_fact_checked_sean_hannity_on_obamacare/

  204. avatar
    Rickey October 18, 2013 at 6:24 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Keep in mind that we all pay higher hospital costs to cover the indigent care that Hospitals are required by law to provide. That is one of the hidden drivers of the steady increase in health care costs and insurance premiums.

    That’s an excellent point. A week or so back I saw an interview with a hospital administrator in Texas who said that caring for the indigent costs his hospital $50 million per year, and almost all of that would be paid by the Federal government if Texas had agreed to participate in the Medicaid expansion. But Texas has refused, so the citizens of Texas have to bear the entire burden.

  205. avatar
    Rickey October 18, 2013 at 6:31 pm #

    charo:
    When you have underage children, would you be more concerned about their welfare or the welfare of someone else? It is a moral struggle.What are you willing to give up for a loved one? I am speaking rhetorically.I help others when I am able to. I love St. Jude’s.

    Since you have underage children, you almost certainly are eligible for subsidies for your health insurance premiums.

    If you haven’t been able to find affordable coverage on your own, get the help of a good insurance agent.

    The Salon article which I linked to previously provides the example of a couple who are paying $10,000/year currently for health insurance coverage. When the writer checked out the insurance exchange for them, he found comparable coverage for $3600/year after subsidies.

    What we’re seeing in these anti-Obamacare rants is a lot of comparing apples to oranges.

  206. avatar
    charo October 18, 2013 at 6:35 pm #

    Rickey: I suggest that you read this article written by a former aide to Governor Schweitzer of Montana.

    http://www.salon.com/2013/10/18/inside_the_fox_news_lie_machine_i_fact_checked_sean_hannity_on_obamacare/

    How did he know the couple’s income to use the Kaiser calculator? What were the out of pocket expenses?

    Why do you think I listen to Sean Hannity?

    I can tell you that I did the same thing with the Kaiser calculator concerning a story about a Republican from Little Rock who claimed he was now eligible for insurance at practically peanuts. I plugged in $20,000 a year and made him a non-smoker. He gave his age for the article, and given his age, any children were likely full grown adults for a number of years. I didn’t get anywhere near what he said he got.

    As time goes on, we’ll hear more stories, I am sure.

  207. avatar
    JPotter October 18, 2013 at 6:41 pm #

    Rickey: That’s an excellent point.

    Indeed it is!

    Good ol’ Sen Coburn of Okieland loves to rail against Obamacare. He reminds everyone that he is an MD (who has delivered 4000 babies) and never fails to claim supreme expertise on the subject. After all, he is a doctor, right?

    His point on Obamacare care is that it isn’t necessary, because federal law already mandates indigent care. Those costs are already “socialized”, what we need Obamacare for?

    Because if costs are going to be socialized, they should be socialized by the people; ALL of the people. What possible good, other then the privatization of wealth, and continued transfer of resources from the many to the few, comes from having for-profit middle-men involved in a haphazard process of unintentional socialization?

    It’s unreasonable to expect an economy to produce equal outcomes, but intentionally producing unequal outcomes while reinforcing and accelerating that inequality, is inhumane, cruel, criminal.

    There’s two tragic brain-plagues at work here: 1) the winger credo that government is always less efficient than private enterprise (they can’t understand economy of scale when it’s taken to its logical extreme?) … 2) plain old selfishness; these sick puppies really believe that people should only get the care they can pay for (until it’s them, of course).

  208. avatar
    charo October 18, 2013 at 6:53 pm #

    J.D. Sue: until they were prescribed a medication or developed a health issue and thereby became completely uninsurable.

    I mentioned in a previous comment that my husband had a pre-existing condition and lost his job. He was un-insurable. He found another position a few months later that carried group insurance. You had a certain number of days to get re-insured before the pre-existing condition could be held against you for not carrying continuous coverage; obviously that is not the case under the new law.

    J.D. Sue: MO, caps on tort liability are completely unconstitutional.

    You have some generous juries and some stingy ones. For plaintiffs’ attorneys, medical malpractice is a booming business. I believe in punitive damages for big companies who continue acting in a manner that they know can lead to harm.

  209. avatar
    charo October 18, 2013 at 7:04 pm #

    Rickey: Since you have underage children, you almost certainly are eligible for subsidies for your health insurance premiums.

    If you haven’t been able to find affordable coverage on your own, get the help of a good insurance agent.

    The Salon article which I linked to previously provides the example of a couple who are paying $10,000/year currently for health insurance coverage. When the writer checked out the insurance exchange for them, he found comparable coverage for $3600/year after subsidies.

    What we’re seeing in these anti-Obamacare rants is a lot of comparing apples to oranges.

    Rickey: Since you have underage children, you almost certainly are eligible for subsidies for your health insurance premiums.

    If you haven’t been able to find affordable coverage on your own, get the help of a good insurance agent.

    The Salon article which I linked to previously provides the example of a couple who are paying $10,000/year currently for health insurance coverage. When the writer checked out the insurance exchange for them, he found comparable coverage for $3600/year after subsidies.

    What we’re seeing in these anti-Obamacare rants is a lot of comparing apples to oranges.

    I cut and pasted from the Kaiser site and yes, our family would be eligible for subsidies. The insurance is still more expensive than being covered by the employer. If the employer should decide to drop coverage, I know the deal we will get in general. What I do not know is the deductible and co-pays. It does not appear likely the employer would cut off coverage. If he does, the increase in cost comes from the out of pocket expenses, which although capped at $12,700, are $11,700 more than we would have to pay now.

    I don’t know why I keep hearing comparing apples to oranges. What is the purpose of comparing what you have with what the exchange offers then?

  210. avatar
    charo October 18, 2013 at 7:07 pm #

    JPotter: Because if costs are going to be socialized, they should be socialized by the people; ALL of the people.

    No waivers, no exceptions, no union favoritism or favoritism of any kind. Correct?

  211. avatar
    G October 18, 2013 at 8:48 pm #

    I sooooo totally agree! I’ve seen that take place in various businesses way, way too often myself! Unfortunately, bringing that issue up too often fell on deaf ears. Sadly, too many managers and executives seem to actually have a difficult time grasping the long term costs/benefits as opposed to just considering short-term “shortcuts” when it comes to their hires and employees…

    CarlOrcas: and I was always amazed at how cavalier some people could be about the problems you create when make bad hires or, worse, treat good hires like crap.

  212. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 18, 2013 at 9:10 pm #

    G:
    I sooooo totally agree!I’ve seen that take place in various businesses way, way too often myself!Unfortunately, bringing that issue up too often fell on deaf ears.Sadly, too many managers and executives seem to actually have a difficult time grasping the long term costs/benefits as opposed to just considering short-term “shortcuts” when it comes to their hires and employees…

    Too many managers and executives don’t understand people are the organization’s most valuable asset and when you say that out loud in a meeting some of them look at you like you have two heads.

  213. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 18, 2013 at 9:46 pm #

    I wouldn’t say no exceptions at all. The one that comes to mind is for people like that Amish, but I wouldn’t call that favoritism. Contrary to the false chain emails that I have seen, I am happy to report that Congress did not exempt themselves.

    charo: No waivers, no exceptions, no union favoritism or favoritism of any kind. Correct?

  214. avatar
    Rickey October 18, 2013 at 9:54 pm #

    charo: I cut and pasted from the Kaiser site and yes, our family would be eligible for subsidies. The insurance is still more expensive than being covered by the employer. If the employer should decide to drop coverage, I know the deal we will get in general. What I do not know is the deductible and co-pays. It does not appear likely the employer would cut off coverage. If he does, the increase in cost comes from the out of pocket expenses, which although capped at $12,700, are $11,700 more than we would have to pay now.

    I don’t know why I keep hearing comparing apples to oranges. What is the purpose of comparing what you have with what the exchange offers then?

    That’s precisely what I mean about comparing apples and oranges. If the employer drops coverage for employees, obviously the employees’ cost for health insurance is going to go up. But that has nothing to do with Obamacare, because there is nothing in Obamacare which requires employers to drop health insurance for their employees.

    Unfortunately, there are some employers out there who have decided to stick it to their employees and blame it on Obamacare.

    And apples to apples comparison would be to compare the cost of a non-group health insurance policy before Obamacare with the cost of a non-group health insurance policy with Obamacare.

  215. avatar
    Rickey October 18, 2013 at 9:58 pm #

    charo: How did he know the couple’s income to use the Kaiser calculator?What were the out of pocket expenses?

    Why do you think I listen to Sean Hannity?

    My impression is that the couples he spoke to gave him enough information that he was able to get at least ball park quotes for them.

    I never suggested that you listen to Sean Hannity. My point in linking to the article had nothing to do with Hannity. It had to do with the fact that many people are making false claims about Obamacare Hannity is just giving those people a platform to repeat their false claims.

  216. avatar
    Rickey October 18, 2013 at 10:18 pm #

    charo:For plaintiffs’ attorneys, medical malpractice is a booming business.

    Not really. The latest studies show that medical malpractice lawsuits have been declining significantly since 2000.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3077940/

    Other studies which I have seen suggest that medical malpractice adds perhaps 1/2 of !% to the cost of medical care in the United States. Other studies show that 3/4 of the medical malpractice cases which go to trial end in verdicts for the defendants.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2628507/

  217. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 18, 2013 at 10:19 pm #

    You listen to Sean Hannity to for the lies and propaganda?

    charo: Why do you think I listen to Sean Hannity?

  218. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 18, 2013 at 11:09 pm #

    Rickey: Not really. The latest studies show that medical malpractice lawsuits have been declining significantly since 2000.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3077940/

    Other studies which I have seen suggest that medical malpractice adds perhaps 1/2 of !% to the cost of medical care in the United States. Other studies show that 3/4 of the medical malpractice cases which go to trial end in verdicts for the defendants.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2628507/

    Thanks! As we used to say in the news business: There’s another good story ruined by over checking!

  219. avatar
    charo October 18, 2013 at 11:39 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I wouldn’t say no exceptions at all. The one that comes to mind is for people like that Amish, but I wouldn’t call that favoritism. Contrary to the false chain emails that I have seen, I am happy to report that Congress did not exempt themselves.

    From what I understand, Congress and their staffers have always had their health care subsidized, a benefit they are now guaranteed to continue to have by some kind of authorization of the OMB (?) after pressure from President Obama when this was not put into the ACA (or something to that effect). The working public has no guarantee. Yes, many employers heavily subsidize their employees. They don’t have to. Congress and the staffers have a guarantee.

    In any case, anyone with insurance helps to subsidize indigent care. Is it frustrating that a pain pill costs an exorbitant amount of money to offset nonpayment cases? Yes. Will the ACA ease that burden for everyone? IMO, No. I found it interesting that a commenter above said that even if a few end up burdened, it’s for the good of the country. How much are a few and what if it happens to be you? We will know more as time moves forward.

    Anyways, here is a good read linked from Huff Post about the eimpmentation of the ACA.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/361577/assessing-exchanges-yuval-levin

  220. avatar
    charo October 18, 2013 at 11:44 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Thanks! As we used to say in the news business: There’s another good story ruined by over checking!

    I know the above feeds into your gotcha mentality, but I gave my general view of what could be changed. I don’t have set outlook because the whole health insurance debate is complex. It seems to me that you are one of the people who don’t really have a dog in this fight right now because your insurance is set. I have some years to go before Medicare. I have three underage children so I cannot afford to be cavalier about the situation.

  221. avatar
    JPotter October 18, 2013 at 11:50 pm #

    charo: No waivers, no exceptions, no union favoritism or favoritism of any kind.Correct?

    You failed to pick up on the gist of my argument; a system devoid of middle-men is a ‘single-payer’ system.

  222. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 19, 2013 at 1:18 am #

    charo: From what I understand, Congress and their staffers have always had their health care subsidized, a benefit they are now guaranteed to continue to have by some kind of authorization of the OMB (?) after pressure from President Obama when this was not put into the ACA (or something to that effect). The working public has no guarantee. Yes, many employers heavily subsidize their employees. They don’t have to. Congress and the staffers have a guarantee.

    Where did you hear that? Members of Congress and their staffs have exactly the same options for health insurance as all Federal employees.

    http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/health-care-for-members-of-congress/

    Why didn’t you check for yourself rather than repeating what you heard or saw somewhere else? I knew this but it only took me about two seconds to find a source to provide you.

    charo: In any case, anyone with insurance helps to subsidize indigent care.

    Actually that’s not true either. For the most part – depending on the state – those costs are shouldered by taxpayers.Mr. Google can help you with that one as well.

    charo: Is it frustrating that a pain pill costs an exorbitant amount of money to offset nonpayment cases?

    There is no relationship between the cost of a medication and indigent care. The general consensus is that our inefficient delivery and insurance system encourages pharmaceutical companies to charge higher prices in the U.S. Have you ever bought medications overseas? They often cost a fraction of what they do here. Did you know that Medicare is prohibited by law from negotiating prices with the pharmaceutical companies?

    charo: I found it interesting that a commenter above said that even if a few end up burdened, it’s for the good of the country. How much are a few and what if it happens to be you?

    That, as they say, is life. Sometimes it just isn’t fair. I haven’t had a ticket or an accident in over 30 years. Why do I have to pay for car insurance?

  223. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 19, 2013 at 1:32 am #

    charo: I know the above feeds into your gotcha mentality, but I gave my general view of what could be changed.I don’t have set outlook because the whole health insurance debate is complex.It seems to me that you are one of the people who don’t really have a dog in this fight right now because your insurance is set.I have some years to go before Medicare.I have three underage children so I cannot afford to be cavalier about the situation.

    The point, charo, is that your “general view” is badly flawed….driven, it appears, by lots of misinformation that you don’t seem to question.

    Set aside my situation (I’ve only been on Medicare for just a little over a year) and I have to ask why you aren’t looking more closely at all your assumptions and looking for more information than what looks to me like talking points from talk radio and Fox News.

  224. avatar
    charo October 19, 2013 at 1:39 am #

    Like other large employers, the government pays a large share of the cost of coverage. On average, the government pays 72 percent of the premiums for its workers, up to a maximum of 75 percent depending on the policy chosen.

    (from your link)

    The provision in question was pushed by Sen. Charles E. Grassley, R-Iowa. His version of the amendment included language providing the employer contribution for members and staff in the exchanges. But the law itself makes no mention of the employer contribution — hence the mess.

    During a meeting in the Capitol Wednesday with the Senate Democratic caucus, Obama said that he would personally step in to work on the issue before the health care law’s requirement that those on Capitol Hill get insurance through the exchanges. Obama’s comments were first reported by Politico and later confirmed by CQ Roll Call.

    House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., released a statement Thursday night reiterating that staff and lawmakers must sign up for the exchanges.

    http://blogs.rollcall.com/wgdb/reid-says-issue-with-health-care-for-lawmakers-staff-is-resolved/

    At issue is whether Obama’s health care law allows the federal government to continue to pay part of the health insurance premiums for members of Congress and thousands of Hill aides when they are nudged onto health exchanges.

    Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/07/obama-hill-health-care-dispute-95017.html#ixzz2i8wF4htr

    CarlOrcas: That, as they say, is life. Sometimes it just isn’t fair.

    Yeah, let a Republican use that line…

    As for my situation where I “rely on Fox News,” I used the Kaiser calculator, same as the guy did in Rickey’s article from Slate.

    Over generalize much about people? I don’t watch tv, except the Munsters , whom my kids have just discovered.

    As for the rest, too tired to discuss.
    Have a nice day!

  225. avatar
    charo October 19, 2013 at 1:49 am #

    Oh, and I was talking about the cost of a pain pill in the hospital, such as Tylenol, items of that sort.

  226. avatar
    G October 19, 2013 at 2:08 am #

    Agreed! Been there one too many times…with one too many companies… *sigh*

    CarlOrcas: Too many managers and executives don’t understand people are the organization’s most valuable asset and when you say that out loud in a meeting some of them look at you like you have two heads.

  227. avatar
    Keith October 19, 2013 at 2:12 am #

    charo: Like other large employers, the government pays a large share of the cost of coverage. On average, the government pays 72 percent of the premiums for its workers, up to a maximum of 75 percent depending on the policy chosen.

    Your first link explains that the problem has been solved – it is dated 1 August 2013 and updated on 2 August 2013.

    Your second link explains what the problem is – it is dated 31 July 2013.

    You can find a more detailed examination of the entire ‘problem’ here: Congress and an Exemption from ‘Obamacare’?

    The upshot is that a REPUBLICAN sponsored amendment to the ACA specified that, unlike every other large employer in the country, the Federal Government can not continue to offer the existing Group Health plan to its employees – Federal Employees are required to obtain their insurance through the exchanges.

    I’ll repeat for emphasis: the Republican sponsored amendment forces a distinction between the Federal Government as an employer and every other large employer in the country.

    That distinction is NOT an exemption – it is a mandate. Federal Employees are not exempt from anything in the ACA; they must still have insurance coverage exactly like every one else, or be fined exactly like everyone else.

    The only controversy was: can the Federal Government continue to subsidize employees insurance after they have been moved onto the exchange?

    The answer, as pointed out quite clearly in the first link you provided is: yes.

    Furthermore, the addition of the 800,000 or more Federal employees to the exchange can only strengthen the exchange system and since the existing Government employee health plan operated very much like an exchange anyway, there shouldn’t be very much difficulty transitioning.

  228. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 19, 2013 at 2:15 am #

    charo: The provision in question was pushed…………….

    The two links you provided are two months old.

    As near as I can determine with a couple minutes looking Congress members and their staffs still have subsidized insurance and, if one story I read is correct, they must buy a Gold level plan from one of the 112 carriers in the Washington exchange.

    But it may be a couple days before everything gets sorted out. Bottom line: They’ve still got insurance.

    charo: As for my situation where I “rely on Fox News,” I used the Kaiser calculator, same as the guy did in Rickey’s article from Slate.

    I didn’t say you relied on Fox News. I said your talking points sounded like they came from Fox News and talk radio. They do.

  229. avatar
    charo October 19, 2013 at 2:19 am #

    I never said they were exempted. I said they will have their insurance subsidized, as it always has been.

    I said your talking points sounded like they came from Fox News and talk radio. They do.

    So what. I’ll order up a seance and you can call me Christine O’Donnell.

  230. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 19, 2013 at 2:21 am #

    charo:
    Oh, and I was talking about the cost of a pain pill in the hospital, such as Tylenol, items of that sort.

    The cost of a Tylenol in the hospital has nothing to do with indigent care.

  231. avatar
    G October 19, 2013 at 2:22 am #

    Ah, much love for the Musters!!! A favorite from my childhood too! Glad to see that your kids have discovered it! 🙂

    charo: I don’t watch tv, except the Munsters , whom my kids have just discovered.

    Yeah, hospitals sure try to get away with charging some outrageous prices for various “incidental” pills and items…then again, I think a lot of them claim it is how they cover for other expensive losses in their business…

    charo: Oh, and I was talking about the cost of a pain pill in the hospital, such as Tylenol, items of that sort.

  232. avatar
    charo October 19, 2013 at 2:28 am #

    G:
    Ah, much love for the Musters!!!A favorite from my childhood too!Glad to see that your kids have discovered it!

    Yeah, hospitals sure try to get away with charging some outrageous prices for various “incidental” pills and items…then again, I think a lot of them claim it is how they cover for other expensive losses in their business…

    My friend is a critical care nurse, and she talks about the cost of pills being so high because of unpaid bills. I need to step away from the topic here though.

    We get some good laughs with the Munsters. Thanks for noticing the light hearted change of topic. I had to google all of the characters so they could see what the characters looked like in real life.

    With that, I’ve got to get to bed. I am starting to keep vampire hours. This has got to stop.

  233. avatar
    G October 19, 2013 at 2:30 am #

    ROTFL! I feel the same way! Have a good night’s sleep. 🙂

    charo: With that, I’ve got to get to bed. I am starting to keep vampire hours. This has got to stop.

  234. avatar
    charo October 19, 2013 at 2:34 am #

    🙂

    It’s been awhile since we had a laugh together. Thx!

  235. avatar
    jdkinpa October 19, 2013 at 2:50 am #

    Want another good laugh? Martin Bashir calls Larry Klayman a whore, only metaphorically though.

    http://freakoutnation.com/2013/10/18/martin-bashir-obliterated-klayman-over-remarks-at-the-million-vet-march-and-it-was-glorious/

  236. avatar
    Keith October 19, 2013 at 3:55 am #

    RE: READING LIST RECOMMENDATION

    I adding “On Offence: The Politics of Indignation” by Richard King to my reading list.

    ABC Radio National (Australia) ‘Saturday Extra’ program 19/10/2013 – Geraldine Doogue interviews Richard King => (program page)

    As I post this, I’m having a weird time listening to the podcast. It doesn’t stream or download. I’ll figure it out somehow, I have never had a problem before.

    Anyway, the book sounds great, discussing why we can’t have ‘arguments’ anymore without someone being offended that we simply disagree and ending the discussion. Or something like that. I need to get the podcast working dammit.

  237. avatar
    Keith October 19, 2013 at 4:05 am #

    The audio works. I couldn’t get it to work with Windows Media Player, but RealAudio worked fine. Then I switched back to WMP and it still didn’t work. Then I tried ‘Standalone Player’ and WMP came up and played it perfectly.

    Go figure.

  238. avatar
    Whatever4 October 19, 2013 at 7:51 am #

    Keith:
    RE: READING LIST RECOMMENDATION

    I adding “On Offence: The Politics of Indignation” by Richard Kingto my reading list.

    ABC Radio National (Australia) ‘Saturday Extra’ program 19/10/2013 –Geraldine Doogue interviews Richard King => (program page)

    As I post this, I’m having a weird time listening to the podcast. It doesn’t stream or download. I’ll figure it out somehow, I have never had a problem before.

    Anyway, the book sounds great, discussing why we can’t have ‘arguments’ anymore without someone being offended that we simply disagree and ending the discussion. Or something like that. I need to get the podcast working dammit.

    Interesting book. I just read the intro. My favorite phrase is “Clash of snivilizations.”

    “Identifying with causes rather rather than committing ourselves to them, and mistaking our feelings for political insights, we demand not only the right to take offence but also the right not to be offended.”

    Pretty much sums up Modern America.

  239. avatar
    Keith October 19, 2013 at 8:45 am #

    Whatever4: Interesting book. I just read the intro. My favorite phrase is “Clash of snivilizations.”

    “Identifying with causes rather rather than committing ourselves to them, and mistaking our feelings for political insights, we demand not only the right to take offence but also the right not to be offended.”

    Pretty much sums up Modern America.

    I forgot to include a link: Scribe Publications: On Offence – the politics of indignation – Richard King

    That’s the publisher, you can find it at your own favorite bookseller.

  240. avatar
    donna October 19, 2013 at 9:40 am #

    James M: Business people tend to give unsatisfying diplomatic answers when faced with controversial questions.

    grazie mille for the roar –

    no one is mentioning cruz’s relationship with GS – one wonders what the tea party would think of it

    AND

    charlie cook: And don’t get me started on the “birthers.” It’s one thing to dislike or disapprove of Obama, but to get obsessed over birth certificates—really?

    http://www.nationaljournal.com/the-cook-report/conservatives-get-a-grip-on-reality-20131017

  241. avatar
    The European October 19, 2013 at 10:28 am #

    OrlyT. goes fully maniac today. No need to go to her site, see http://spectragator.birfessed.net/
    and look at her headlines.

  242. avatar
    donna October 19, 2013 at 11:01 am #

    Obama’s Religion Is Out Of Spotlight But Christian Spirituality Serves During Tough Times

    “his longtime advisers say, the president has carefully nurtured a sense of spirituality that has served as a grounding mechanism during turbulent times, when the obstacles to governing a deeply divided nation seem nearly insurmountable.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/19/obama-religion_n_4127936.html

    i “thought” he was “muslim” 😉

  243. avatar
    Majority Will October 19, 2013 at 3:04 pm #

    GOP Gubernatorial Hopeful Sings To Joe Arpaio, Botches Geography

    (excerpt) KTVK-TV obtained video of Jones singing a tune from the musical “Wicked,” as well as her praising Arpaio for his “integrity and honesty.”

    “So I very much respect the way that you have led with integrity and honesty and should I be fortunate enough to be governor while you’re the sheriff I hope that you and we will continue that tradition together,” Jones said.

    Jones’ appearance also included some questionable comments. The KTVK-TV clip shows her claim to the crowd that Arpaio “goes down into the desert and puts out water so people won’t die coming across the Rio Grande.” TPM pointed out that the Rio Grande does not run through Arizona and KTVK-TV reached out to officials who said they were unaware of Arpaio doing that.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/19/christine-jones-joe-arpaio_n_4128685.html?ncid=txtlnkushpmg00000037

  244. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 19, 2013 at 3:38 pm #

    It’s a common mistake 😉

    donna: i “thought” he was “muslim” 😉

  245. avatar
    Arthur October 19, 2013 at 9:05 pm #

    Any Led Zeppelin or Heart fans out there? You gotta’ watch this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK_DOJa99oo#t=382

    It’s the most wonderful rendition of “Stairway to Heaven” I’ve ever heard.

  246. avatar
    Keith October 19, 2013 at 10:10 pm #

    Arthur:
    Any Led Zeppelin or Heart fans out there? You gotta’ watch this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK_DOJa99oo#t=382

    It’s the most wonderful rendition of “Stairway to Heaven” I’ve ever heard.

    That is an excellent cover of “Stairway to Heaven”. The Zepp seemed to appreciate it too.

    If you are a fan of S2H in particular, you may be interested in the Australian TV Show “The Money or the Gun” in which, each week, a different musical guest performed S2H in their own particular style. For example, ‘The Australian Doors Show‘ made it sound like the Doors.

    The most well known outcome was Rolf Harris’ version which made the top ten charts in the UK.

    My favorite though is Leonard Teale’s version

    You can get 22 of the “Money or the Gun” performances, some good, some rotten, on DVD if you like.

    Geeze. There’s about eleventy bazillion covers of this song, and that is not an exaggeration.

  247. avatar
    Arthur October 19, 2013 at 10:37 pm #

    Keith: The Zepp seemed to appreciate it too.

    I loved watching Jimmy Page, Robert Plant, and John Paul Jones reacting to the music. There was so much there, from delight to regret.

  248. avatar
    Arthur October 20, 2013 at 12:59 am #

    Breaking News! At Birther Report, poster Falcon has revealed the identify of the the man who forged Obama’s birth certificate. Seems it’s someone named “Kevin Davidson.” Anyone know who he is???

  249. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 20, 2013 at 8:12 am #

    I am flattered that someone thinks that I have the technical skills and detailed knowledge necessary to create a fake that is indistinguishable from an authentic birth certificate scanned on a Xerox 7655 WorkCentre office machine and then rotated on a Mac with Preview and saved as a PDF. Such a task is, however, way beyond my capabilities.

    Arthur: Breaking News! At Birther Report, poster Falcon has revealed the identify of the the man who forged Obama’s birth certificate. Seems it’s someone named “Kevin Davidson.” Anyone know who he is???

  250. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 20, 2013 at 9:18 am #

    I

    Arthur:
    Breaking News! At Birther Report, poster Falcon has revealed the identify of the the man who forged Obama’s birth certificate. Seems it’s someone named “Kevin Davidson.”Anyone know who he is???

    I heard he also invented a machine that kicks puppies AND steals candy from babies. I can only ever get my mechanical menaces do one or the other.

  251. avatar
    JPotter October 20, 2013 at 9:34 am #

    Arthur:
    Breaking News! At Birther Report, poster Falcon has revealed the identify of the the man who forged Obama’s birth certificate. Seems it’s someone named “Kevin Davidson.”Anyone know who he is???

    What happened to ‘Mike’?

    Dr. Conspiracy: Such a task is, however, way beyond my capabilities.

    C’mon, Doc! You can push a button as well as the next guy!

  252. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 20, 2013 at 11:25 am #

    Arthur:
    Breaking News! At Birther Report, poster Falcon has revealed the identify of the the man who forged Obama’s birth certificate. Seems it’s someone named “Kevin Davidson.”Anyone know who he is???

    Oh, my! Which of the fascinating threads on Birther Report (I guess they can’t call it ObamaReleaseYourRecords anymore?) contains this news flash?

  253. avatar
    Arthur October 20, 2013 at 11:49 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Such a task is, however, way beyond my capabilities.

    I’ve been wondering what the reaction of birthers would be if you went over to Birther Report and “admitted” that you were the forger. How would they react? Would they they celebrate it? Deny it? I doubt they would accept you admitting to be the forger because it would solve the conspiracy, and it’s the conspiracy they live for, not its resolution.

  254. avatar
    Sef October 20, 2013 at 11:52 am #

    donna:
    Obama’s Religion Is Out Of Spotlight But Christian Spirituality Serves During Tough Times

    “his longtime advisers say, the president has carefully nurtured a sense of spirituality that has served as a grounding mechanism during turbulent times, when the obstacles to governing a deeply divided nation seem nearly insurmountable.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/19/obama-religion_n_4127936.html

    i “thought” he was “muslim”

    President Obama’s mother was a UU, which is inclusive of many faith views, including atheism and Christianity. A UU has the duty and responsibility to develop their own creed, not something handed down from on high. It is also true that many of our founding fathers were of the Unitarian or Universalist perspective, but undoubtedly more focused on the Christian side of things than today’s UUs. No, our President is not a Holy Roller, so some folks don’t think his religion counts.

  255. avatar
    Sef October 20, 2013 at 12:30 pm #

    Doc, I have mentioned this before, but you have not changed it: The link to “Turning The Scale” at the bottom of the page goes to a site somewhere in Asia. Did you mean turningthescale.tumblr.com instead of turningthescale.net ? The tumblr site doesn’t appear to have had much activity recently, though.

  256. avatar
    donna October 20, 2013 at 1:25 pm #

    Sef:

    if you listen to brit author firstbrook & souza on c-span, obama’s kenyan relatives were/are 7th day adventists

    In his book The Audacity of Hope, Barack Obama writes: I was not raised in a religious household. For my mother, organized religion too often dressed up closed-mindedness in the garb of piety, cruelty and oppression in the cloak of righteousness. However, in her mind, a working knowledge of the world’s great religions was a necessary part of any well-rounded education. In our household the Bible, the Koran, and the Bhagavad Gita sat on the shelf alongside books of Greek and Norse and African mythology.

    On Easter or Christmas Day my mother might drag me to church, just as she dragged me to the Buddhist temple, the Chinese New Year celebration, the Shinto shrine, and ancient Hawaiian burial sites. In sum, my mother viewed religion through the eyes of the anthropologist; it was a phenomenon to be treated with a suitable respect, but with a suitable detachment as well.

    His mother was raised by non-practicing Christians; his father was raised a Muslim but was an atheist by the time he had married Obama’s mother. Obama’s step-father was also Muslim, but of an eclectic kind who could make room for animist and Hindu beliefs. Neither Obama nor his mother were ever atheists, but she raised him in a relatively secular household where he learned about religion.

  257. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 20, 2013 at 1:42 pm #

    Orly doesn’t seem to understand how court works!(Crazy, I know!)
    Going by her recent please for bikers and truckers to show up for her next failure, she seems to think that bringing in supporters will somehow increase her chances of winning. One of her supports even asks if they should start to make trouble if it looks like she’s going to lose.
    How could such a cunning plan possible fail?

  258. avatar
    James M October 20, 2013 at 4:09 pm #

    donna: In our household the Bible, the Koran, and the Bhagavad Gita sat on the shelf alongside books of Greek and Norse and African mythology.

    I’ve known people who would truly regard this alone as an abomination.

  259. avatar
    Sef October 20, 2013 at 4:12 pm #

    donna: In his book The Audacity of Hope, Barack Obama writes: I was not raised in a religious household. For my mother, organized religion too often dressed up closed-mindedness in the garb of piety, cruelty and oppression in the cloak of righteousness. However, in her mind, a working knowledge of the world’s great religions was a necessary part of any well-rounded education. In our household the Bible, the Koran, and the Bhagavad Gita sat on the shelf alongside books of Greek and Norse and African mythology.

    Donna, thank you for proving my point.

  260. avatar
    RanTalbott October 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I am flattered that someone thinks that I have the technical skills and detailed knowledge necessary to create a fake

    Does he have enough assets to cover the legal costs of a libel suit?

    The trial (if any) would be quick and boring, but the discovery could be quite interesting. E.g., it might provide an opportunity to subpoena the Hayes report, and the Clueless Clown Posse’s scanner tests, since Falcon would almost certainly cite them in his defense.

  261. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 20, 2013 at 5:53 pm #

    Do you have a link?

    Arthur: Breaking News! At Birther Report, poster Falcon has revealed the identify of the the man who forged Obama’s birth certificate. Seems it’s someone named “Kevin Davidson.” Anyone know who he is???

  262. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 20, 2013 at 5:58 pm #

    It’s not breaking news. Check out my birther fan site:

    http://davidsonconspiracy.org/2013/09/did-kevin-davidson-forge-obamas-birth-certificate/

    I forget which of the birthers built the site, but I think it was one of the ones spurned here.

    Arthur: Breaking News! At Birther Report, poster Falcon has revealed the identify of the the man who forged Obama’s birth certificate. Seems it’s someone named “Kevin Davidson.” Anyone know who he is???

  263. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 20, 2013 at 6:02 pm #

    I think it was either Lucas Smith or one of his fanboys.

  264. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 20, 2013 at 6:03 pm #

    Hey Doc, any reason why posts are getting moderated lately?
    The one right before this mentions a name, and little else.

  265. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 20, 2013 at 6:08 pm #

    Some little filter is looking out for me. Not to worry.

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: Hey Doc, any reason why posts are getting moderated lately?
    The one right before this mentions a name, and little else.

  266. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 20, 2013 at 6:18 pm #

    It’s Ken Olson behind davidsonconspiracy.org.

    I entered this query in Google:

    “Kevin Davidson” (forge OR forged OR forgery) “birth certificate” conspiracy obama

    and got a surprising 3,880 estimated hits. Time to go clicking.

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: I think it was either Lucas Smith or one of his fanboys.

  267. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 20, 2013 at 6:22 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Some little filter is looking out for me. Not to worry.

    Filters sure are ornery little critters, but necessary.

  268. avatar
    Arthur October 20, 2013 at 7:59 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: It’s Ken Olson behind davidsonconspiracy.org.

    Does Olson also run Birther Report?

  269. avatar
    Sef October 21, 2013 at 10:33 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: It’s Ken Olson behind davidsonconspiracy.org.

    So that’s what he’s doing with all those millions from the Compaq buyout. That is, while he’s not busy pushing up daisies.

  270. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater October 21, 2013 at 11:15 am #

    That site is almost as sick as Lucas’ unhealthy obsession with you.

  271. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater October 21, 2013 at 11:16 am #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: Hey Doc, any reason why posts are getting moderated lately?The one right before this mentions a name, and little else.

    You mentioned the convicted forger’s name. I notice anytime I mention his name I get in moderation.

  272. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 21, 2013 at 12:22 pm #

    It gives me a good chuckle, that incredibly stupid people’s names are part of the filter system.

  273. avatar
    justlw October 21, 2013 at 1:15 pm #

    donna (quoting the president): In our household the Bible, the Koran, and the Bhagavad Gita sat on the shelf alongside books of Greek and Norse and African mythology.

    Hey, we’ve got a pretty similar shelf in our house! The Oxford Annotated Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Bhagavad Gita, and The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

    Next shelf over is the complete Discworld series.

  274. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater October 21, 2013 at 8:16 pm #

    Hey Doc I see you were having a “discussion” with an Alan Brooks on a youtube video a while back: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up62cFOtvQ4

    I see I stepped into crazy land. Birthers seem to have a penchant for believing multiple conspiracy theories. He’s claiming now that Obama released the names of the members of Seal Team Six

  275. avatar
    Dave October 21, 2013 at 8:25 pm #

    xkcd recently posted an open letter to the conspiracies that control the US government.

  276. avatar
    roadburner October 22, 2013 at 6:57 am #

    *grins

    i’ve done it again! been banned from ORYR, but this time my I.P. has been blocked

    i posted dismantling klaymans 9 points. it was up for half a day before it was removed.

    funny how they were bitching about `liberal censorship’ a couple of weeks back.

    someone should advise them to remove that quote from lovejoy at the bottom of their comments page 😀

  277. avatar
    roadburner October 22, 2013 at 7:04 am #

    justlw: Hey, we’ve got a pretty similar shelf in our house! The Oxford Annotated Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Bhagavad Gita, and The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Next shelf over is the complete Discworld series.

    i looked last night, and my bibles (king james, gideons, vulgate) and bhagavad gita have howard marks’s autobiography on one side, and `101 uses for a dead cat’ on the other.

    hmmm…think it’s time to re-organise my bookshelves

  278. avatar
    Bovril October 22, 2013 at 8:10 am #

    Roadburner….TOR be your friend if you still want to post over there

  279. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater October 22, 2013 at 8:30 am #

    roadburner:
    *grins

    i’ve done it again! been banned from ORYR, but this time my I.P. has been blocked

    i posted dismantling klaymans 9 points. it was up for half a day before it was removed.

    funny how they were bitching about `liberal censorship’ a couple of weeks back.

    someone should advise them to remove that quote from lovejoy at the bottom of their comments page

    Try AOLs free service everytime you sign online using that and use their internal browser it gives you a new ip address

  280. avatar
    Kiwiwriter October 22, 2013 at 10:28 am #

    roadburner:
    *grins

    i’ve done it again! been banned from ORYR, but this time my I.P. has been blocked

    i posted dismantling klaymans 9 points. it was up for half a day before it was removed.

    funny how they were bitching about `liberal censorship’ a couple of weeks back.

    someone should advise them to remove that quote from lovejoy at the bottom of their comments page

    And those guys blast us for blocking them….

  281. avatar
    Brian October 22, 2013 at 10:55 am #

    From http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/?p=437914

    FOX Analyst Charlie Gasparino: JP Morgan $13 Billion Fine Was Political Punishment for Criticizing Obama (Video)

    Posted on | October 21, 2013 | No Comments

    (Video) http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/10/fox-analyst-charlie-gasparino-jp-morgan-13-billion-fine-was-political-punishment-for-criticizing-obama-video/

    Make no mistake: if Obama, Eric Holder, Tony West and Benjamin Wagner can get away with a 13 billion dollar shakedown of the JP Morgan-Chase, they will do the same to other banks and many other corporations. Even if other bank CEOs are not critical of Obama, those CEOs will be asked to donate large amounts for Democratic party candidates. If they refuse, they will be reminded that they participated in the same transactions as JP, same mortgage bundling and they have a choice of parting with their money peacefully or doing it in the midst of criminal charges. This will be a death spiral for the U.S. democracy. Obama’s appetite will only grow and they will seek larger and larger shakedowns. Moreover, this money is not in the budget and body knows where it goes.

    For example, I filed multiple FOIA requests to find out the total of how much did Obama and Lew take from the pension fund of federal employees. They refuse to give an answer. By my estimate it can be as much as 540 billion, however on the first day after the shutdown only 321 billion were transferred and added to our debt. Is it really the total that was taken from the federal employees? I remember a law suit in Great Britain against Robert Maxwell, large amounts were taken from the pension funds of his employees. With Maxwell’s sudden death, his sudden fall from his yacht, the whole thing went quiet, but people still lost their life savings. There are multiple examples like these. The same happened in the Soviet Union. People, who worked all their lives there, were left with nothing, not enough money for food, medicine, not enough even for a decent burial, people were buried in mass graves. I hope that this does not happen in this country, however with massive looting, no transparency, no judges willing to hold Obama accountable, God knows what is in store for this country.

    Keep in mind that Benjamin Wagner, who prepared the case against JP, is the same U.S. Attorney, who together with his Deputy U.S. Attorney Ed Olsen, defrauded the U.S. Congress and the federal court and claimed that they represent the US Congress and the electoral college and on behalf of their clients want dismissal of my case Grinols et al v electoral college, Congress, Obama, Biden, Secretary of State of CA and Governor of CA, case dealing with fraud committed by Obama in running for the U.S. .Presidency while using fabricated IDs and a stolen CT Social Security number of Harry Bounel. In reality they went behind the backs of the members of the U.S. Congress and Electoral college. This is very serious, this is a criminal conspiracy to commit treason and usurp the U.S. Presidency and defraud the U.S. Congress prior to the congressional vote to confirm Obama’s electoral votes. Keep in mind: treason is considered to be a High Crime, for which one can get a life in prison or death penalty. We just need one honest judge or one honest Congressman to move. This is very easy to prove.

    Can you imagine these US Attorneys lying to the members of the U.S. Congress and saying: “yes, Congressmen, I notified you”. these Congressmen will laugh and state: “Show me, how did you notify me. Where is the certified mail letter, where is the receipt?” I can guarantee you that that even Democrats will not defend this. This is indefensible. They have nothing. Moreover, it gives Congress an ability to introduce Obama’s fabricated IDs through the back door, meaning they will not be called racist, as the main point of such investigation will be the fact that the U.S. attorneys lied and did not notify the Congress about the law suit. Obama’s fabricated IDs will come in later, with the motif.

    There is some movement. I hope that the resolution will come soon. I hope America is waking up.

    Orly Taitz esq.

  282. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 22, 2013 at 11:00 am #

    roadburner:
    *grins

    i’ve done it again! been banned from ORYR, but this time my I.P. has been blocked

    i posted dismantling klaymans 9 points. it was up for half a day before it was removed.

    funny how they were bitching about `liberal censorship’ a couple of weeks back.

    someone should advise them to remove that quote from lovejoy at the bottom of their comments page

    Yup! birther report’s admin is about as hypocritical as they come.
    I’ve found one thing that gets it’s inmates in a really big uproar, and that is down voting. Its especially fun on days when they’ve royally had their butts to them, like on days when their hope-du-jour fails them. Then its back to the wimp-lo defense “They’re thumbing us down, so we must be right! *sob* Right guys? *sniffle* Right? *whimper* I miss white presidents…”

  283. avatar
    MattR October 22, 2013 at 3:39 pm #

    Brian: From http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/?p=437914

    Wow. That was impressively bad, even by Orly standards. It took more than the usual 2 or 3 passes to figure out WTF she was trying to say.

  284. avatar
    RanTalbott October 22, 2013 at 4:02 pm #

    Brian: We just need one honest judge or one honest Congressman to move. This is very easy to prove.

    The Farce is strong in this one.

  285. avatar
    Arthur October 22, 2013 at 4:14 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: I’ve found one thing that gets it’s inmates in a really big uproar, and that is down voting.

    Sometime the number of down votes is astonishing. It would appear that there are many more brights visiting that website than birthers.

  286. avatar
    roadburner October 22, 2013 at 4:48 pm #

    Arthur: Sometime the number of down votes is astonishing. It would appear that there are many more brights visiting that website than birthers.

    i must confess to when i see the most off the wall psychotic posts there, making a point of giving them the thumbs-up

    irresistable!

  287. avatar
    Benji Franklin October 22, 2013 at 8:26 pm #

    Speaking of crazy Birther web sites, Carl Gallups’ home base there is called PPSimmons, and that sites apparent resident article writer, a member of Gallups’ church named the Rev Joda Collins, included this statement in one of his pieces recently:

    “Obama is one of the very few people in the world who meets the entire biblical-qualifications as outlined in Proverbs 6:16-19. Proverbs 6:16-19 is God’s personification of pure evil.”

    This shows how far gone their hate-Obama mentality has taken them. Reread that statement with my emphasis added:

    “Obama is ONE of the VERY FEW people in the world (out of OVER 7 BILLION!) who meets the entire biblical-qualifications as outlined in Proverbs 6:16-19. Proverbs 6:16-19 is God’s personification of pure evil.”

    Hmmmmm. I’m wondering if I could possibly be one of the other 3 or 4?

    I guess we should be grateful that the Rev Joda Collins knows every single person on Earth well enough to know precisely who AND how many of us God was talking about.

  288. avatar
    Dave B. October 22, 2013 at 8:45 pm #

    Joda’s quite the prolific author. You can download free e-books of his titles

    “DOES GOD CALL WOMEN TO LEAD MEN? (When Women Lead Men Leave),”

    “Does Jesus Have Long Hair?”,

    “GOD’S WORD ABOUT A FEMALE PRESIDENT (or Vice President)”

    (from the blurb: “Any man that seeks female leadership over him is a whimp and a disgrace to all men. We are certainly set up for two women to run for President in 2012; Hillary and Sarah. What a sick world we live in.”)
    and a most humble offering,

    “The Joda Collins Study Bible”.

    http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/jodacollins?searchTerms=&pageOffset=1

    Benji Franklin: I guess we should be grateful that the Rev Joda Collins knows every single person on Earth well enough to know precisely who AND how many of us God was talking about.

  289. avatar
    ScottRS October 22, 2013 at 9:07 pm #

    I see where David Farrar, ex oficio, E-I-E-I-O has been run out of Red State for being too goofy, even for them. The story came from Breitbart, the link below is Wonkette (which, you are warned, does not always use the nicest words)

    http://wonkette.com/532289/ted-cruz-birther-too-stupid-even-for-erick-ericksons-redstate#more-532289

  290. avatar
    Brian October 23, 2013 at 11:58 am #

    Do you recall revelations that military officers are given questionnaires asking whether they will follow orders to shoot Americans? Recently Obama fired 9 generals, I wonder if these are generals who stated that they will not follow orders to fire on Americans?:

    (http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/?p=437990)

    “What’s He Planning?” 9 US Generals Fired in Short Order? :

    https://docs.google.com/gview?url=http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/9-generals-fired-by-Obama.pdf&chrome=true

  291. avatar
    Lupin October 23, 2013 at 12:08 pm #

    Brian: Do you recall revelations that military officers are given questionnaires asking whether they will follow orders to shoot Americans? Recently Obama fired 9 generals, I wonder if these are generals who stated that they will not follow orders to fire on Americans?

    Strangely enough it didn’t seem to bother you when GW Bush started the notion one could deprive US citizens of due process and civil rights by arbitrarily labeling them enemy combatants.

  292. avatar
    Kiwiwriter October 23, 2013 at 12:17 pm #

    Brian:
    Do you recall revelations that military officers are given questionnaires asking whether they will follow orders to shoot Americans? Recently Obama fired 9 generals, I wonder if these are generals who stated that they will not follow orders to fire on Americans?:

    (http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/?p=437990)

    “What’s He Planning?” 9 US Generals Fired in Short Order? :

    https://docs.google.com/gview?url=http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/9-generals-fired-by-Obama.pdf&chrome=true

    Considering that your links are to Orly Taitz’s website, my only comment is:

    “Consider the source.”

  293. avatar
    gorefan October 23, 2013 at 12:52 pm #

    Brian: Do you recall revelations that military officers are given questionnaires asking whether they will follow orders to shoot Americans?

    That was well covered back in 2004. The questionnaire was part of master’s thesis

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1088237/posts

  294. avatar
    Brian October 23, 2013 at 1:17 pm #

    Makes ya wonder . . .

    “What’s He Planning?” 9 US Generals Fired in Short Order? :

    https://docs.google.com/gview?url=http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/9-generals-fired-by-Obama.pdf&chrome=true

  295. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 23, 2013 at 1:48 pm #

    Brian: Makes ya wonder . . .

    There are hundreds of general officers in the U.S. military (about 500 authorized, as I recall) so exactly what are you wondering about?

  296. avatar
    gorefan October 23, 2013 at 2:04 pm #

    Brian: Makes ya wonder

    Here is the original ABC story

    http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/military-shakeup-highest-levels-20549462

    Apparently what he is planning is a military with a high standard for ethical behavior.

  297. avatar
    Daniel October 23, 2013 at 2:05 pm #

    Brian:
    Makes ya wonder . . .

    “What’s He Planning?” 9 US Generals Fired in Short Order? :

    https://docs.google.com/gview?url=http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/9-generals-fired-by-Obama.pdf&chrome=true

    Was there 9 general officers fired recently? Were they actual firings? Is that an unusual number? Did any of this occur at all?

    I’d like to see some source for these “firings”.

    “Orly said so” isn’t enough, I fear.

  298. avatar
    donna October 23, 2013 at 2:06 pm #

    Wikipedia suspends accounts suspected of editing for pay

    The foundation that supports Wikipedia’s volunteer editors announced this week that it is suspending more than 250 accounts accused of being paid “sock puppets” who may have manipulated articles on behalf of clients.

    “It looks like it is manipulation on a scale and a level that we haven’t seen before in the encyclopedia,” Sue Gardner, Wikimedia Foundation’s executive director told The Wall Street Journal. “There has never been an investigation of this scope, scale, duration and seriousness.”

    http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2013/10/wikipedia-suspends-accounts-suspected-of-editing-for-175755.html?hp=r3

  299. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 23, 2013 at 2:49 pm #

    gorefan: Apparently what he is planning is a military with a high standard for ethical behavior.

    Oh, goodness! What a fiendish plan.

  300. avatar
    Daniel October 23, 2013 at 2:57 pm #

    Daniel: Was there 9 general officers fired recently? Were they actual firings? Is that an unusual number? Did any of this occur at all?

    I’d like to see some source for these “firings”.

    “Orly said so” isn’t enough, I fear.

    Upon further investigation, I cannot find any mention of these firings in the media. The only mention seems to be a single article making it’s rounds through the bagger/birther blogs and seemingly oriiginating at the “Daily Dose” rag. It quotes an ABC article that shows 9 General grade officers fired over the course of one year. While the number in one year is unusual, it’s certainly not earth shattering.

    Of course the nutbag blogs don’t mention that it was over the course of a year. The headlines give the impression that it was one fell swoop, which is, of course, probably what the fearmongers want the sheep to think. Apparently it worked on Brian, who was fooled into believing it was in “short order”.

    So Brian, do a little better research, and consider your sources a little more carefully, and you won’t be shown a fool next time.

  301. avatar
    Daniel October 23, 2013 at 3:04 pm #

    Forgot to mention that the ABC article mentions only 7, including the latest two.

    So not only is the nubagosphere dishonest about the time, it’s also adding two non-existent firings.

  302. avatar
    evilsaint October 23, 2013 at 6:45 pm #

    I believe that the hucksters that peddle merchandise and etc to the RWNJs have been spoiled by the ease of rwnjs to believe what they tell them about Pres Obama. When our President finishes his term, I wonder what they will do then. This reminds me of the part of Forrest Gump that he runs cross country attracting followers. The runners asking themselves what do we do now, after Forrest quits, will likely be similar to rwnjs in 2017

  303. avatar
    Brian October 23, 2013 at 7:19 pm #

    Daniel:

    So Brian, do a little better research, and consider your sources a little more carefully, and you won’t be shown a fool next time.

    http://www.infowars.com/ex-navy-seal-military-leaders-being-asked-if-they-will-disarm-americans/

  304. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 23, 2013 at 7:25 pm #

    I think that if they name the companies involved, the free market will take care of the rest.

    donna: Wikipedia suspends accounts suspected of editing for pay

  305. avatar
    Dave B. October 23, 2013 at 7:43 pm #

    This is you considering your sources a little more carefully?

    Brian:
    Daniel:

    So Brian, do a little better research, and consider your sources a little more carefully, and you won’t be shown a fool next time.

    http://www.infowars.com/ex-navy-seal-military-leaders-being-asked-if-they-will-disarm-americans/

  306. avatar
    JPotter October 23, 2013 at 8:29 pm #

    Brian: Do you recall revelations that military officers are given questionnaires asking whether they will follow orders to shoot Americans?

    Nope, sure don’t! We don’t give much truck to positive interrogatives here. Nice try tho.

    (Really now, that recycled blarney has been going ’round the net for 20 years, and has a long history in the pre-digital conspir-a-sphere. Bring a fresh one next time, will ya?)

  307. avatar
    Brian October 23, 2013 at 8:43 pm #

    JPotter:

    Nope, sure don’t! We don’t give much truck to positive interrogatives here. Nice try tho.

    (Really now, that recycled blarney has been going ’round the net for 20 years, and has a long history in the pre-digital conspir-a-sphere. Bring a fresh one next time, will ya?)

    http://www.infowars.com/ex-navy-seal-military-leaders-being-asked-if-they-will-disarm-americans/

  308. avatar
    RanTalbott October 23, 2013 at 9:01 pm #

    Spotted on the Twitter feed sidebar: “A witness to Orly Taitz’s appeal hearing today said a judge called her organizational skills ‘amazing’. True story.”

    As in “It’s amazing that you haven’t been disbarred after all the cases you’ve lost due to your total lack of organization”??

  309. avatar
    JPotter October 23, 2013 at 9:38 pm #

    Brian: Brian

    May as well explore the full history of your adopted crazy. Here’s a sample. Go play and have fun:

    http://thenewalexandrialibrary.com/armysurvey.html

    http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/m/militarysurvey.htm#.Umh2Fvk3srY

    http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=484

    http://www.knology.net/~bilrum/UN29palms.htm

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2008/020408_shoot_americans.htm

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2981315/posts

    http://thecommonsenseshow.com/2012/11/27/will-american-troops-commit-genocide-against-american-citizens/

    http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread973306/pg1

    http://preambleramble.org/would-us-military-confiscate-guns-and-shoot-american-citizens

    Repeating your favorite iteration of rightwing paranoia doesn’t make it more notable than any other. The military is gonna git yer guns, they’re coming in the black helis, to collect souls for the detention camps. The same allegations made by wingnuts against every “liberal” President, and against every President by the truly loony.

  310. avatar
    Suranis October 24, 2013 at 4:06 am #

    With thanks to Mimi at the Fogbow for spotting it, Our favorite fake intellectual David Farrar made the Wonkette today http://wonkette.com/532289/ted-cruz-birther-too-stupid-even-for-erick-ericksons-redstate

    It concerns Ex Ahahaha getting kicked off Redstate for getting his birther on about Ted Cruz. He laments this injustice here http://www.teapartynation.com/forum/topics/because-i-have-been-booted-off-red-state-allow-me-to-address-the

    It did prompt Redstate to put up an anti-birther article, well in that they write about why CRUZ is eligible http://www.redstate.com/freedomrepublican/2013/10/19/putting-ted-cruz-birtherism-to-rest/

  311. avatar
    The Magic M October 24, 2013 at 4:25 am #

    evilsaint: When our President finishes his term, I wonder what they will do then.

    With the inventiveness they have shown so far (think “Muslim ring”), they will have little problems making up similar crap about any future President, even the most lily-white Democrat, even Ted Cruz (who would even allow them to continue their ineligibility rants).
    If Hillary runs and wins, misogyny will fill in for racism, no problem since it’s all the same to old white men.
    And the “secret Muslim” card can be played with anyone (except an openly Muslim President), so that one will always work.

  312. avatar
    Suranis October 24, 2013 at 7:11 am #

    FOr those who are interested, Media matters is publishing a book about the Benghazi fake scandal

    http://benghazihoax.com/?utm_source=mmfa&utm_medium=banner&utm_campaign=benghazihoax

  313. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 24, 2013 at 8:19 am #

    Birthers are largely crazy old white people, and that’s Cruz’ base too. The birther movement has essentially removed any chance for Cruz to become the Republican nominee in 2016. Dagnabbit.

    Suranis: It concerns Ex Ahahaha getting kicked off Redstate for getting his birther on about Ted Cruz.

  314. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 24, 2013 at 9:37 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Birthers are largely crazy old white people, and that’s Cruz’ base too. The birther movement has essentially removed any chance for Cruz to become the Republican nominee in 2016. Dagnabbit.

    Well, I wouldn’t refer to birthers as “people”. My Shih Tzu is a better human being than that lot. Her arguments are far more intelligent too!

  315. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 24, 2013 at 10:18 am #

    Obama Release Your Records has a graphic that says:

    ObamaCare: No “birther” conspiracy for this ugly baby! We know where it was born an who the father is.

    — Kevin Jackson

    It was born in Massachusetts and the father was Mitt Romney. What’s your point?

  316. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 24, 2013 at 10:23 am #

    I dunno Doc, I think this is a job for Maury!

  317. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 24, 2013 at 10:38 am #

    Orly’s latest headline:

    Very important: I need your help. I need to reach 9 generals, who were purged from the military by Brother Hussein and see if they are willing and able to be plaintiffs in a Unlawful Termination lawsuit against Obama. If they are, they can call me at …

  318. avatar
    The European October 24, 2013 at 11:54 am #

    It is some kind of whining by me. It is sad, but your President is losing nearly all his credit in Europe. And it is self-inflicted. How stupid.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/uproar-in-germany-continues-over-accusations-that-us-tapped-merkels-phone/2013/10/24/39e4c618-3c96-11e3-b0e7-716179a2c2c7_story.html

  319. avatar
    The European October 24, 2013 at 12:23 pm #

    And more here:

    /quote
    A document dated August 2010 suggests intelligence stolen from foreign embassy computers ensured the US knew ahead of time the positions of other Security Council members, before a UN vote for a resolution imposing new sanctions on Iran.

    The US was worried the French were drifting to the Brazilian side – who were opposed to implementing sanctions – when in truth they were always aligned to the US position, says our correspondent.

    The intelligence agency quotes Susan Rice, then-US ambassador to the UN, who praises the work done by the NSA: “It helped me know… the truth, and reveal other [countries’] positions on sanctions, allowing us to keep one step ahead in the negotiations.”

    /endquote

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24628947

  320. avatar
    Arthur October 24, 2013 at 1:07 pm #

    Well the birthers and their fellow conspiracy nuts are going to go crazy over this:

    George Soros Backs Hillary Clinton for U.S. President

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/24/us-usa-clinton-soros-idUSBRE99N0UW20131024

  321. avatar
    misha marinsky October 24, 2013 at 1:32 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: My Shih Tzu is a better human being than that lot.

    Mark Twain – If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. That is the difference between a dog and a man.

  322. avatar
    Greenfinches October 24, 2013 at 2:08 pm #

    Brian: [quoting Orlykins]
    I remember a law suit in Great Britain against Robert Maxwell, large amounts were taken from the pension funds of his employees. With Maxwell’s sudden death, his sudden fall from his yacht, the whole thing went quiet, but people still lost their life savings.

    well, it is hard to prosecute a dead man (for stealing pension funds…)

    Not sure what Obama and Lew are supposed to have done, except exist. Interesting that she doesn’t blame the Republicans for any losses caused by the shutdown????

  323. avatar
    Curious George October 25, 2013 at 9:31 am #

    Hundreds of thousands of Americans have received health insurance cancellation notices.

    “If you like your health care plan, you’ll be able to keep your health care plan, period. No one will take it away, no matter what.”

    President Barack Obama, 2009

    http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/24/health-insurance-cancellation-notices-soar-above-obamacare-enrollment-rates/

  324. avatar
    Thomas Brown October 25, 2013 at 10:24 am #

    Curious George:
    Hundreds of thousands of Americans have received health insurance cancellation notices.

    “If you like your health care plan, you’ll be able to keep your health care plan, period.No one will take it away, no matter what.”

    President Barack Obama, 2009

    http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/24/health-insurance-cancellation-notices-soar-above-obamacare-enrollment-rates/

    You trust information you get from the Daily Caller? BWWWWAAAAHHHAAAAHAHAAAHAHAAAHAHAAA!
    Stop it. Yer killin’ me.

  325. avatar
    The Magic M October 25, 2013 at 10:58 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy (quoting Orly): to be plaintiffs in a Unlawful Termination lawsuit against Obama

    If it was anyone but Orly, I’d think she was speaking figuratively, but this being Orly, she probably thinks an “unlawful termination” lawsuit (if such a thing even exists in the military) would actually have Obama (and not the United States) as proper defendant.
    Well, she’d be in a conundrum here – she claims Obama isn’t the lawful CiC, yet she wants to sue him as such…
    Just a pity this particular failfest is never going to be, since none of her desired plaintiffs is as crazy as Vallely. It would be such fun.

  326. avatar
    Sef October 25, 2013 at 12:15 pm #

    Arthur: George Soros Backs Hillary Clinton for U.S. President

    Oh, goody. Now I won’t need to cash in my savings bonds to support her candidacy.

  327. avatar
    The European October 25, 2013 at 12:36 pm #

    Some whining

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6Kc5Xvr24Aw

  328. avatar
    sfjeff October 25, 2013 at 12:44 pm #

    Thomas Brown: You trust information you get from the Daily Caller? BWWWWAAAAHHHAAAAHAHAAAHAHAAAHAHAAA!
    Stop it. Yer killin’ me.

    I heard the same thing on NPR.

    Has to do with the new minimum standards the ACA sets. Lots of individual insurance buyers had bought cheap insurance that didn’t cover a lot- because thats what they could afford.

    It was probably a mistake to not grandfather those policies in, just to prevent this type of hullabaloo.

  329. avatar
    Suranis October 25, 2013 at 1:03 pm #

    It’s probably a good thing long term that these rip off near-fake insurance policies are going, in that case. People will get new plans worth more to them for their money. But of course the Liberal media wont mention that side of it.

    And regulation stopping the customer getting screwed by companies practicing rational self interest? NOOOOOOO!!

    sfjeff: I heard the same thing on NPR.

    Has to do with the new minimum standards the ACA sets. Lots of individual insurance buyers had bought cheap insurance that didn’t cover a lot- because thats what they could afford.

    It was probably a mistake to not grandfather those policies in, just to prevent this type of hullabaloo.

  330. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 25, 2013 at 1:23 pm #

    sfjeff: I heard the same thing on NPR.

    Has to do with the new minimum standards the ACA sets. Lots of individual insurance buyers had bought cheap insurance that didn’t cover a lot- because thats what they could afford.

    It was probably a mistake to not grandfather those policies in, just to prevent this type of hullabaloo.

    Here’s the Kaiser story mentioned by The Daily Call. It is a little more nuanced than the DC’s version. Surprise!

    http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2013/October/21/cancellation-notices-health-insurance.aspx

  331. avatar
    Stamper October 25, 2013 at 4:31 pm #

    : Mind boggling. Absolute insanity.

    CarlOrcas – is this you? You old smoothie!

    Karl

    Submitted on 2013/10/24 at 6:06 pm

    “They admit that the mail clerk got the pleadings and signed for them, but they are saying that the pleadings disappeared inside the building and they are asking the judge for 30 days since the government shut-down ended to respond.”

    So, we are to believe that such politically-sensitive, “hot potato” pleadings simply, inexplicably and spontaneously “disappeared” inside the building all by themselves after Justice Department clerk Eddy Hase logged them in? What an amazing and convenient series of coincidences! Holder’s Justice Department must think that judge Lamberth is either biased and complicit or incredibly naïve. How do they know that the pleadings “disappeared” somewhere inside the building, and not into Holder’s attaché case or automobile glove compartment?

    If judge Lamberth is a man of integrity who really seeks truth and justice, he will tell them “I simply do not believe your sophomoric stories any more” and, instead of granting their requests, order Justice Department clerk Eddy Hase to name under oath the person to whom he gave those sensitive pleadings after he logged them in.

    After all, does it really take 30 days to create a new “original” SS-5 registration form or to discover that strangely, alas, the original form has, like other sensitive documents, suddenly and inexplicably “gone missing”?

    http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/?p=438173

    Or this from Geeky:

    “Right now, I’m screaming silently because no one can hear me if I were to ruin my vocal chords.

    Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

    Why does Holdie need to review an Ssn that belongs to a dead man???

    Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo”

    Both comments referring to http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/?p=438152#comments

  332. avatar
    donna October 25, 2013 at 5:22 pm #

    North Carolina state Rep. Larry Pittman became the latest elected Republican to disrespect and insult the president, with a “joke” about Obama being a traitor from Kenya.

    Said Pittman: “Someone had posted something with a picture of Barack Obama and across it said ‘traitor.’ And, you know, I don’t always agree with the guy, I certainly didn’t vote for him but I gotta defend him on this one. I just don’t think it’s right at all to call Barack Obama a traitor. There’s a lot of things he’s done wrong but he is not a traitor. Not as far as I can tell. I haven’t come across any evidence yet that he has done one thing to harm Kenya.”

    [….]

    The only people who are still hanging on to the birther stuff are Republicans. The only people who think it is funny are the racists who are obsessed with delegitimizing President Obama. The only traitors to their country are the Republicans who shutdown the government because they are still protesting the voters’ choice to give this president a second term.

    This is who President Obama’s opposition is, and this is what he has to deal with every single day of his presidency.

    http://www.politicususa.com/2013/10/25/north-carolina-republican-state-rep-calls-president-obama-traitor-kenya.html

  333. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 25, 2013 at 6:17 pm #

    Stamper: CarlOrcas – is this you? You old smoothie!

    No. Never have and can’t imagine I ever will post anything on her site.

    Who are you…..scott e.?

  334. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 25, 2013 at 6:54 pm #

    Larry
    Brian
    Joe
    Truth
    Hello_Reality
    WhoCares

    CarlOrcas: Who are you…..scott e.?

  335. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 25, 2013 at 7:22 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Larry
    Brian
    Joe
    Truth
    Hello_Reality
    WhoCares

    Ah! Just wondered as a Scott (no initial) was one of the first to comment on the dentist’s site.

  336. avatar
    Brian October 25, 2013 at 9:16 pm #

    Stamper wrote “Why does Holdie need to review an Ssn that belongs to a dead man???”

    Good question.

    Why DOES Holdie need to review an Ssn that belongs to a dead man?

    Makes ya wonder!

  337. avatar
    Lani October 26, 2013 at 12:27 am #

    Hey, I got one of them there policy cancellation notices! From Kaiser! The policy I buy for adult offspring is ending 12/31. 🙁 He’s going to have to buy the Kaiser Platinum to get the same (actually a little bit better) coverage – for $6 less per month. The monthly cost drops much more if he goes through the exchange to purchase it because he qualifies for a subsidy.

    Oh, the horrors of Obama Cares! /snark

  338. avatar
    Thinker October 26, 2013 at 10:32 am #

    A hearing on what? He doesn’t seem to be asking anything of the ‘defendants.’ He is informing the court that it is required to submit his information to a federal grand jury for investigation. Where do these loons come up with this crap??

    JPotter
    So, should he be graced with a hearing, will he be faced with just 1 Empty Chair, or a whole tribe of’em? Only takes one to win.

  339. avatar
    JPotter October 26, 2013 at 10:57 am #

    Thinker:
    A hearing on what? He doesn’t seem to be asking anything of the ‘defendants.’ He is informing the court that it is required to submit his information to a federal grand jury for investigation. Where do these loons come up with this crap??

    Oh, he’s angling for criminal charges? Well, that’s a breath of fresh air. Guess he got tired of waiting for some hot FBI action on his original pile of poo 😀

  340. avatar
    Reality Check October 26, 2013 at 11:05 am #

    Exactly. He said he “noticed” the FBI Director in DC and the FBI and US Attorney in Hawaii and never heard back from them. Imagine that? 😆

    Someone should let NBC and GE know they are named in this pile of poop. Vogt even mentions Savannah Guthrie posting to her “Titter” on April 27, 2011 that she saw and held the certified copy of the BC. Putting that on your Titter has to be Misprision of Treason or something doesn’t it?

    JPotter: Oh, he’s angling for criminal charges? Well, that’s a breath of fresh air. Guess he got tired of waiting for some hot FBI action on his original pile of poo

  341. avatar
    gorefan October 26, 2013 at 11:19 am #

    Reality Check: or something

    It’s clear from his affidavit that he is one of the computer experts that Zullo used. Which goes a long way in explaining the CCP’s failures.

  342. avatar
    Jim October 26, 2013 at 2:16 pm #

    Hey, an all new conspiracy for you doc…Faint-Gate!

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/10/obama-faked-fainting-woman-lady-patriots-conspiracy.html

    The nut jobs are restless!!! 😀

  343. avatar
    Keith October 27, 2013 at 12:36 am #

    Reality Check: Putting that on your Titter has to be Misprision of Treason or something doesn’t it?

    Janet Jackson had something on her titter at the Superbowl a few years ago, and she was hung for treason, wasn’t she?

  344. avatar
    Majority Will October 27, 2013 at 2:34 am #

    The President’s Devotional: What Obama ‘Did In Secret’ In Newtown

    (excerpt) Person after person received an engulfing hug from our commander in chief. He’d say, “Tell me about your son. . . . Tell me about your daughter,” and then hold pictures of the lost beloved as their parents described favorite foods, television shows, and the sound of their laughter. For the younger siblings of those who had passed away—many of them two, three, or four years old, too young to understand it all—the president would grab them and toss them, laughing, up into the air, and then hand them a box of White House M&M’s, which were always kept close at hand. In each room, I saw his eyes water, but he did not break.

    And then the entire scene would repeat—for hours. Over and over and over again, through well over a hundred relatives of the fallen, each one equally broken, wrecked by the loss. After each classroom, we would go back into those fluorescent hallways and walk through the names of the coming families, and then the president would dive back in, like a soldier returning to a tour of duty in a worthy but wearing war. We spent what felt like a lifetime in those classrooms, and every single person received the same tender treatment. The same hugs. The same looks, directly in their eyes. The same sincere offer of support and prayer.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/26/the-presidents-devotional_n_4158485.html

  345. avatar
    The European October 27, 2013 at 10:56 am #

    That bastard !

    Pentagon: Obama wants Marines to wear ‘girly’ hats

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/10/24/obama-wants-marines-to-wear-girly-hats/?intcmp=obinsite

    Marine Corps nixes plan for unisex dress hat

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/10/26/marine-corps-nixes-plan-for-unisex-dress-hat/?intcmp=trending

  346. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 27, 2013 at 11:26 am #

    The European: That bastard !

    Phony story from a phony news operation.

    http://www.armytimes.com/article/20131027/NEWS07/310270008/Marine-Corps-retreats-after-girlie-cap-controversy-hits-epic-peak

  347. avatar
    JPotter October 27, 2013 at 11:37 am #

    I’d like to see FAUX go to the descendants of Smedley Butler, Daniel Daly, and other great marine badasses of the WWI era, and inform them that their military forebears wore “girly” hats.

  348. avatar
    Rickey October 27, 2013 at 2:57 pm #

    Curious George:
    Hundreds of thousands of Americans have received health insurance cancellation notices.

    “If you like your health care plan, you’ll be able to keep your health care plan, period.No one will take it away, no matter what.”

    President Barack Obama, 2009

    http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/24/health-insurance-cancellation-notices-soar-above-obamacare-enrollment-rates/

    They aren’t cancellation notices. They are actually policy modification/replacement notices. This is from the letter which my company received from UnitedHealthcare:

    “To make sure your policy includes these new requirements [i.e., the coverages mandated by Obamacare], your existing policy will end and be replaced with a new policy and new premium rates upon renewal in 2014. We will roll out a new product portfolio beginning on January 1, 2104 that meets the ACA requirements.”

    The existing coverage is actually quite comprehensive, but it does not include certain items required by Obamacare such as free contraceptives – hence the need to “cancel” the existing policy and replace it with a new policy.

    There is nothing to see here.

  349. avatar
    Arthur October 27, 2013 at 10:27 pm #

    Birther Report has now removed the ability to down-vote comments, starting with the most recent article. Darn, I was really having fun over there. The faithful were stirred up like a hive of obscene bees.

  350. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 27, 2013 at 10:35 pm #

    They did it right in the middle of my reading the page (and downvoting the birthers). And I think they’re more like stirred up ants—bees aren’t pretty much harmless. It kind of seems like Comrade Fogovitch lit off a firecracker in their anthill, though…

    Arthur:
    Birther Report has now removed the ability to down-vote comments, starting with the most recent article. Darn, I was really having fun over there. The faithful were stirred up like a hive of obscene bees.

  351. avatar
    JPotter October 27, 2013 at 10:40 pm #

    From the Twit feed, Judge Kreep faces ethics complaint:
    http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/oct/24/birther-judge-gary-kreep-ethics-complaint/

    If the comments can be trusted, sounds like locals leftwingers didn’t take him seriously, and are now trying to undo the election.

    The guy was paid 34 large for consulting on some mailers? Sounds like the political equivalent of one of the cushy, no-show car dealership gigs college football players get down south!

  352. avatar
    Arthur October 27, 2013 at 11:36 pm #

    Slartibartfast: They did it right in the middle of my reading the page (and downvoting the birthers).

    And now they’ve eliminated voting all together. Gee, now there’s hardly any difference between Brither Report and this site.

  353. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 27, 2013 at 11:38 pm #

    Arthur:
    Birther Report has now removed the ability to down-vote comments, starting with the most recent article. Darn, I was really having fun over there. The faithful were stirred up like a hive of obscene bees.

    Well that’s just a double edged sword, because now birthers can’t down vote comments either.

  354. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 27, 2013 at 11:54 pm #

    Well, it wasn’t me voting them down. It’s not something I think of. I guess they are trying to maintain the illusion of consensus except a couple of paid Obot shills.

    Arthur: Birther Report has now removed the ability to down-vote comments, starting with the most recent article. Darn, I was really having fun over there. The faithful were stirred up like a hive of obscene bees.

  355. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 28, 2013 at 12:18 am #

    I had a nice run over there, but they’ve put me in moderation.

    Arthur: And now they’ve eliminated voting all together. Gee, now there’s hardly any difference between Brither Report and this site.

  356. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 28, 2013 at 12:24 am #

    I can’t wait until they purge all the obots and their traffic plummets. That’ll show those commies!

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I had a nice run over there, but they’ve put me in moderation.

  357. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 28, 2013 at 12:40 am #

    Birthers must lead a hard life. They need some place safe where they can go to get encouragement, affirmation, a warm cookie and a hug. The intrusion of the real world sort of defeats the purpose.

    Slartibartfast: I can’t wait until they purge all the obots and their traffic plummets. That’ll show those commies!

  358. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 28, 2013 at 12:45 am #

    Isn’t that what drk(H)ate’s is for?

    No wait… that’s savagery, sedition, hate filled bile, and some chemtrails.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Birthers must lead a hard life. They need some place safe where they can go to get encouragement, affirmation, a warm cookie and a hug. The intrusion of the real world sort of defeats the purpose.

  359. avatar
    Arthur October 28, 2013 at 1:02 am #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: Well that’s just a double edged sword, because now birthers can’t down vote comments either.

    The thing I found remarkable was that the number of anti-birther down-votes FAR outnumbered the birther up-votes, and that anti-birther comments were getting up-votes in the twenties. That suggests that the number of active birthers visiting that site is very low.

  360. avatar
    Slartibartfast October 28, 2013 at 1:06 am #

    I would guess that most of the birthers are active posters, so pretty much anyone that’s reading but not posting is going to be an anti-birther. I’m surprised it took them so long to remove the evidence of their impotence.

    Arthur: The thing I found remarkable was that the number of anti-birther down-votes FAR outnumbered the birther up-votes, and that anti-birther comments were getting up-votes in the twenties. That suggests that the number of active birthers visiting that site is very low.

  361. avatar
    roadburner October 28, 2013 at 6:45 am #

    Slartibartfast: I would guess that most of the birthers are active posters, so pretty much anyone that’s reading but not posting is going to be an anti-birther. I’m surprised it took them so long to remove the evidence of their impotence.

    i doubt it was from blue falcon, as he loves his post count of thumbs up, and getting loads of thumbs down was giving him the keyboard equivilent of apoplexy!

    there was one poster who said that it was actually the reverse, and that thumbs down meant thumbs up.

    i asked if it was the same as `winning’ the 209 birfoon cases they have lost to date

    😀

  362. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 28, 2013 at 9:17 am #

    I’m back out of moderation.

    Slartibartfast: I can’t wait until they purge all the obots and their traffic plummets. That’ll show those commies!

  363. avatar
    JPotter October 28, 2013 at 9:23 am #

    Slartibartfast: I would guess that most of the birthers are active posters,

    I know a few birfers who are online but not active posters …. because composing coherent sentences and taking the time to type them exceeds their intellectual ability and attention span. Celebrity gossip, cat videos, and facebook keeps’em docile, and safe from further radicalization.

  364. avatar
    Reality Check October 28, 2013 at 9:26 am #

    I am sure the voting was a huge embarrassment to the owner(s). The regular Birther commenters like Falcon were getting killed. He was rated even lower than Crazy Nancy. 😆

    Arthur: And now they’ve eliminated voting all together. Gee, now there’s hardly any difference between Brither Report and this site.

  365. avatar
    Bovril October 28, 2013 at 10:16 am #

    As part of the removal of the thumbs up/down function, ole ORYR is going around and deleting a pile on non-right-think posts.

  366. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 28, 2013 at 10:43 am #

    Reality Check:
    I am sure the voting was a huge embarrassment to the owner(s). The regular Birther commenters like Falcon were getting killed. He was rated even lower than Crazy Nancy.

    I suspect Falcon is an alt account of birther report’s admin. He’s aggressively abusive towards his fellow birthers, when they don’t birther hard enough. Something that a site admin would normally frown upon, but not BR’s. And its usually around the time that Falcon is made to look like the fool that he is, that the admin steps in and begins deleting/altering posts. Foggy was outright schooling Falcon, and all of the sudden his posts were sanitized. As others have pointed out Falcon has been getting down voted like crazy lately. I think that wounded pride got the thumbs removed.

  367. avatar
    Arthur October 28, 2013 at 10:54 am #

    Reality Check: He was rated even lower than Crazy Nancy.

    Speaking of Nancy, she’s keen to be named as “Jane Doe #2” in Doug Vogt’s affidavit. She has also outed herself as the “Kaleidoscope Killer” of Hendry County, Florida.

  368. avatar
    Jim October 28, 2013 at 1:16 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: As others have pointed out Falcon has been getting down voted like crazy lately. I think that wounded pride got the thumbs removed.

    What’s really funny about that is, Falcon brought it on himself! He was complaining about the ex-CCPer and claimed he was the one giving Falcon all the thumbs down. And, of course, with all us caring anti-birthers seeing how much the thumbs down affected him…it was only a matter of time. I used to pop in just to give Falcon thumbs downs, knowing they’d upset him! 😆

  369. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 28, 2013 at 1:19 pm #

    This site still gets over 13,000 unique visitors a month. That’s a large pool of potentially interested people who might visit ORYR and down-vote a nasty birther.

    Arthur: The thing I found remarkable was that the number of anti-birther down-votes FAR outnumbered the birther up-votes

  370. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 28, 2013 at 1:19 pm #

    Jim: What’s really funny about that is, Falcon brought it on himself!He was complaining about the ex-CCPer and claimed he was the one giving Falcon all the thumbs down.And, of course, with all us caring anti-birthers seeing how much the thumbs down affected him…it was only a matter of time.I used to pop in just to give Falcon thumbs downs, knowing they’d upset him!

    Yeah. Watching him flip out over something so insignificant was a good ride while it lasted. Some of the other birthers there are very upset that they can’t add to their e-peen anymore. A few are crying to have the thumbs brought back.

  371. avatar
    Kiwiwriter October 28, 2013 at 1:19 pm #

    Jim: What’s really funny about that is, Falcon brought it on himself!He was complaining about the ex-CCPer and claimed he was the one giving Falcon all the thumbs down.And, of course, with all us caring anti-birthers seeing how much the thumbs down affected him…it was only a matter of time.I used to pop in just to give Falcon thumbs downs, knowing they’d upset him!

    I’ve often wondered who “Falcon” is and how he got that way…he has vast amounts of time and even vaster amounts of fury…where does all that come from?

  372. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 28, 2013 at 1:23 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: I’ve often wondered who “Falcon” is and how he got that way…he has vast amounts of time and even vaster amounts of fury…where does all that come from?

    Maybe his parents didn’t hug him enough as a child. He should consider going upstairs, and asking them why sometime.

  373. avatar
    The Magic M October 28, 2013 at 1:36 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: As others have pointed out Falcon has been getting down voted like crazy lately. I think that wounded pride got the thumbs removed.

    Many crank sites have that one user that is seen as “the most faithful regular” and “the one most consistently contributing to discussions”, and that guy is usually treated royally by the admin (without him having to *be* the admin).
    I remember this from watching a particular German right-wing forum – the admin had to tap-dance a lot because he tried his best to paint himself as “just a German patriot” while having to entertain the Hitler adoration of this “favourite member” (which always caused controversy because 1/3 of the cranks thought it reflected badly upon them, 1/3 approved of it and 1/3 was from the “Hitler was a Jewish agent trying to destroy the Reich” crowd – the infights were hilarious and similar to the birther infights).

  374. avatar
    Arthur October 28, 2013 at 3:34 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: This site still gets over 13,000 unique visitors a month. That’s a large pool of potentially interested people who might visit ORYR and down-vote a nasty birther.

    It’s probably true that most people who visited Birther Report never bothered to vote on the comments . . . maybe because the comments almost never had anything to do with the articles. I guess the site admin. never heard of having open threads.

  375. avatar
    john October 28, 2013 at 5:50 pm #

    Another point of concern or forgery is:

    Dr. Sinclair leaves off his MD designation on Obama’s birth certificate while he does write it on Miki Booth’s certificate. This is inconsistent. Other birth certificate show the MD designation is declared by other doctors even if the medical doctor box is checked ruling out a redudancy reason.

  376. avatar
    john October 28, 2013 at 5:58 pm #

    Another point of Concern or Forgery is:

    The spacing throughout the entire document (Tab spacing) is messed up. Some is lined up and some is not. This is inconsistent with other Hawaii Long Form birth certificates. Nordyke’s certificate is different because she displayed the original. But, other long form birth certificate processed through the Hawaii DOH show pretty consistent tab spacing while Obama’s birth certificate tab spacing is quite messed up.

  377. avatar
    Arthur October 28, 2013 at 10:02 pm #

    Our very special bird-brained birther apparently thinks he’s a now a G-man junior grade. After Foggy left a comment explaining who he thinks Voigt identified as his “Jane Doe,” Falcon swooped in and dropped this smear of bird lime:

    “Thanks Communist – I’ll copy that post for future use. You seem to know too much for an innocent bystander. Keep incriminating yourself and I’ll keep copying your posts, just like I copy all of fat ass Davidson’s. I’m just waiting for you to crack and confess everything. It won’t be long now, you just can help yourself, can you now?”

    On the one hand, I hate drawing attention to this lunatic, but on the other, his self-important posturing and impotent threat-making are just too hilarious to ignore.

  378. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 28, 2013 at 10:05 pm #

    Sure is awful quiet on the Zullo front, ain’t it?
    I mean, we’ve heard Gallup mouth off in the past month, but has Zullo himself actually said anything? Wonder which part of Canada he’s hiding in. 😉

  379. avatar
    Arthur October 28, 2013 at 10:28 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: Wonder which part of Canada he’s hiding in.

    Probably the province of New Birthswick.

  380. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 28, 2013 at 10:31 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG:
    Sure is awful quiet on the Zullo front, ain’t it?
    I mean, we’ve heard Gallup mouth off in the past month, but has Zullo himself actually said anything? Wonder which part of Canada he’s hiding in.

    Earlier this month there was a “penetrating” interview by Floyd Brown on the Western Journalism Center’s website. Other than nothing since late in July.

    He’s probably busy with all those Xerox machines the posse bought.

  381. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 28, 2013 at 11:54 pm #

    We’re focusing on the Vogt affidavit in this thread. The number of nonsense claims about the birth certificate are endless.

    john: Another point of concern or forgery is:

    Dr. Sinclair leaves off his MD designation on Obama’s birth certificate while he does write it on Miki Booth’s certificate. This is inconsistent. Other birth certificate show the MD designation is declared by other doctors even if the medical doctor box is checked ruling out a redudancy reason.

  382. avatar
    John Reilly October 29, 2013 at 12:19 am #

    john:
    Another point of Concern or Forgery is:

    The spacing throughout the entire document (Tab spacing) is messed up.Some is lined up and some is not.This is inconsistent with other Hawaii Long Form birth certificates.Nordyke’s certificate is different because she displayed the original.But, other long form birth certificate processed through the Hawaii DOH show pretty consistent tab spacing while Obama’s birth certificate tab spacing is quite messed up.

    John is a racist troll. A month or so ago he said that “African” was not right because it was not the name of a country. When asked about the Nordyke certificates, which say “Caucasian,” John REFUSED to provide an explanation. Still REFUSES to provide an explanation but holds up the Nordyke certificates again as genuine.

    Like I said, a racist troll. Now back to holding the Nordyke certificates as genuine again.

    How about it, John? Are you going to tell the rest of us geographically impaired folks what country “Caucasian” people are from? Caucasia?

    And to repeat the point I made elsewhere, the State of Hawaii says Pres. Obama was born there. That eliminates doubt about the birth certificate. If the State says it is genuine, that ends all doubt. Except for folks from Caucasia, I guess. Where is that, John?

  383. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 29, 2013 at 12:30 am #

    John Reilly: John is a racist troll. A month or so ago he said that “African” was not right because it was not the name of a country. When asked about the Nordyke certificates, which say “Caucasian,” John REFUSED to provide an explanation. Still REFUSES to provide an explanation but holds up the Nordyke certificates again as genuine.

    Never fear he has pivoted again. Check the debunking thread….he is now claiming Obama Senior’s race is Kenyan.

  384. avatar
    Arthur October 29, 2013 at 12:56 am #

    Arthur: After Foggy left a comment explaining who he thinks Voigt identified as his “Jane Doe,”

    And now Foggy’s comment has been deleted, but not of course the Bird Man of Birtherstan’s. Oh, what a world these bigots would have–censorship, mass imprisonments, suspension of law and the Constitution, and death to all those who hold a different political, social, or religious view from “We The People.” They are truly the despots that they say they fear. It appears they suffer from autophobia–“an irrational fear of oneself; an intense self-fear.”

  385. avatar
    The Magic M October 29, 2013 at 5:52 am #

    john: Nordyke’s certificate is different because she displayed the original.

    What kind of weird claim is that?

  386. avatar
    John Reilly October 29, 2013 at 8:14 am #

    Arthur: And now Foggy’s comment has been deleted, but not of course the Bird Man of Birtherstan’s. Oh, what a world these bigots would have–censorship, mass imprisonments, suspension of law and the Constitution, and death to all those who hold a different political, social, or religious view from “We The People.” They are truly the despots that they say they fear. It appears they suffer from autophobia–”an irrational fear of oneself; an intense self-fear.”

    Birthers want to criminalize dissent. That is why Dr. Taitz threatens a treason charge against anyone in her path. None of them has read the Constitution (whether they can read is in doubt) and none of them understand what makes this country great.

  387. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater October 29, 2013 at 9:37 am #

    john: Another point of concern or forgery is:Dr. Sinclair leaves off his MD designation on Obama’s birth certificate while he does write it on Miki Booth’s certificate. This is inconsistent. Other birth certificate show the MD designation is declared by other doctors even if the medical doctor box is checked ruling out a redudancy reason.

    Did you miss the box that was checked MD?

  388. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater October 29, 2013 at 9:38 am #

    john: Nordyke’s certificate is different because she displayed the original

    No she didn’t. A photostat is still a copy and not the original.

  389. avatar
    Kiwiwriter October 29, 2013 at 9:38 am #

    john:
    Another point of concern or forgery is:

    Dr. Sinclair leaves off his MD designation on Obama’s birth certificate while he does write it on Miki Booth’s certificate.This is inconsistent.Other birth certificate show the MD designation is declared by other doctors even if the medical doctor box is checked ruling out a redudancy reason.

    I’m still waiting for the results of your treasure-hunting expedition to Arlington National Cemetery, John.

    Maybe you’ll find Obama’s ACTUAL birth certificate there!

  390. avatar
    john October 29, 2013 at 9:52 am #

    Another Point of Concern or Forgery is Dr. Sinclair’s Signature. Dr. Sinclair forgot to add the “MD” designation after his name but he did add it on Miki Booth’s birth certificate which is inconsistent. Some say the check box was there to indicate medical doctor but other birth certificates have shown a doctor adding the “MD” designation even though the box is checked. So it is inconstistent.

    [Moved to the open thread. Doc]

  391. avatar
    JPotter October 29, 2013 at 11:11 am #

    The Klayman live at Lafayette Park!

    http://www.birtherreport.com/2013/10/attorney-klayman-to-camp-out-across-white-house.html?utm_content=buffera8f78&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer

    Yet another attempt at a ODS-laced public demonstration. Will they be roasting marshmallows and singing Kumbaya? All two of’em in in a pup tent?

  392. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 29, 2013 at 11:19 am #

    He’ll probably just snap and show up naked in black face. The fact that he lost the Ed Begley Jr Look-a-like contest to the real Ed Begley Jr(The rules allowed it!) has really taken it’s toll on him. In a double whammy, Mr Begley also won the Larry Klayman look-a-like contest.

    Anywho, it would be pretty awesome, if someone showed up at Klayman’s “rally” with signs asking why be plead the fifth in regards to molesting his kids.

  393. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 29, 2013 at 11:38 am #

    That avenue of argument is closed in the context of the Vogt complaint since he says that various birth certificates contemporary to Obama’s are forged. That is, if the De Costa certificate could be a fake to make Obama’s look legitimate, then Booth’s could be a fake to make Obama’s look anomalous.

    john: Another Point of Concern or Forgery is Dr. Sinclair’s Signature. Dr. Sinclair forgot to add the “MD” designation after his name but he did add it on Miki Booth’s birth certificate which is inconsistent.

  394. avatar
    john October 29, 2013 at 12:24 pm #

    Still There are many questions or concerns that Voygt does not mention:

    Why is the birth place defined as “Kenya, East Africa”? All documentation I seen always had Obama Sr. born in just Kenya, at best Kenya (Africa) but not East Africa.

    What is the meaning behind the fuzzed check mark by Dr. Sinclair’s Signature?

    Why does Stanley Ann Dunham’s Signature look artifical? It is written in perfect alignment and there little or no fading of the signature. This area would be Reed Hayes’s expertise.

    [Moved to the Open Thread. Doc.]

  395. avatar
    gorefan October 29, 2013 at 12:32 pm #

    john: Dr. Sinclair forgot to add the “MD” designation after his name but he did add it on Miki Booth’s birth certificate which is inconsistent.

    On the President’s BC there is a check box labeled “M.D.” Dr. Sinclair checked it. On Alan Booth’s there is no check boxk so he added it.

  396. avatar
    Kiwiwriter October 29, 2013 at 12:46 pm #

    john:
    Still There are many questions or concerns that Voygt does not mention:

    Why is the birth place defined as “Kenya, East Africa”?All documentation I seen always had Obama Sr. born in just Kenya, at best Kenya (Africa) but not East Africa.

    What is the meaning behind the fuzzed check mark by Dr. Sinclair’s Signature?

    Why does Stanley Ann Dunham’s Signature look artifical?It is written in perfect alignment and there little or no fading of the signature.This area would be Reed Hayes’s expertise.

    [Moved to the Open Thread. Doc.]

    And my concern is about your planned exciting buried treasure dig at Arlington National Cemetery…how’s that working out, Skippy?

  397. avatar
    gorefan October 29, 2013 at 12:51 pm #

    john: What is the meaning behind the fuzzed check mark by Dr. Sinclair’s Signature?

    Leaky fountain pen?

  398. avatar
    gorefan October 29, 2013 at 12:53 pm #

    john: Why does Stanley Ann Dunham’s Signature look artifical?

    Good penmanship?

  399. avatar
    Crustacean October 29, 2013 at 12:58 pm #

    So, he’s planning on presenting “victims” of Obama. This list includes those “persecuted by ObamaCare.” That’s right: persecuted.

    JPotter: The Klayman live at Lafayette Park!

  400. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG October 29, 2013 at 1:06 pm #

    john:
    Still There are many questions or concerns that Voygt does not mention:

    Why is the birth place defined as “Kenya, East Africa”?All documentation I seen always had Obama Sr. born in just Kenya, at best Kenya (Africa) but not East Africa.

    What is the meaning behind the fuzzed check mark by Dr. Sinclair’s Signature?

    Why does Stanley Ann Dunham’s Signature look artifical?It is written in perfect alignment and there little or no fading of the signature.This area would be Reed Hayes’s expertise.

    [Moved to the Open Thread. Doc.]

    John, at what point did you come to realize that you are mentally retarded?

  401. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 29, 2013 at 1:10 pm #

    john: Why is the birth place defined as “Kenya, East Africa”? All documentation I seen always had Obama Sr. born in just Kenya, at best Kenya (Africa) but not East Africa.

    Do you not have access to Google or Bing?

    Search for Kenya East Africa and you will find that East Africa was the name for a region that was a British Protectorate and that contained Kenya and several other countries.

    Now…..what’s your point?

  402. avatar
    Reality Check October 29, 2013 at 1:19 pm #

    John has been told this about 50 times and he still brings it up at every web site imaginable.

    gorefan: On the President’s BC there is a check box labeled “M.D.”Dr. Sinclair checked it.On Alan Booth’s there is no check boxk so he added it.

  403. avatar
    RanTalbott October 29, 2013 at 1:33 pm #

    john: This area would be Reed Hayes’s expertise.

    No, it wouldn’t: if it were, he would have turned down the Clueless Clown Posse like the other 212 did.

  404. avatar
    Arthur October 29, 2013 at 2:22 pm #

    Reality Check: John has been told this about 50 times and he still brings it up at every web site imaginable.

    Maybe he’s losing his short-term memory?

  405. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 29, 2013 at 3:10 pm #

    Interesting article at Washington Post. The Republicans most associated with the government shutdown come from districts worse off than the country at large with 7% lower median income and 10% unemployment.

  406. avatar
    CarlOrcas October 29, 2013 at 3:34 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Interesting article at Washington Post. The Republicans most associated with the government shutdown come from districts worse off than the country at large with 7% lower median income and 10% unemployment.

    And the profile of the gentleman who lost his business explains why the Republicans are so willing to pander to some people’s fears and prejudices. They need each other.

  407. avatar
    JD Reed October 29, 2013 at 5:03 pm #

    john: Another point of concern or forgery is:Dr. Sinclair leaves off his MD designation on Obama’s birth certificate while he does write it on Miki Booth’s certificate. This is inconsistent. Other birth certificate show the MD designation is declared by other doctors even if the medical doctor box is checked ruling out a redudancy reason.

    Why,then John, did Sinclair’s widow verify his signature on the Obama doc?

  408. avatar
    Arthur October 29, 2013 at 5:20 pm #

    Dr. C.:

    I don’t know if this qualifies as defamation, but someone left a link to a 6 month old post at Lucas Smith’s blog in which he accuses you of messing with his computer, and a commenter at Birther Report responded to that link: “Davidson is planting malware? People should be aware, thanks for posting.”

  409. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 29, 2013 at 6:03 pm #

    Obama conspiracy theorist Jack Cashill is now trolling college journalists
    Article at Pitch.com.

  410. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy October 29, 2013 at 6:20 pm #

    He tried to post the same message here, but I deleted it.

    Arthur: I don’t know if this qualifies as defamation, but someone left a link to a 6 month old post at Lucas Smith’s blog i….”

  411. avatar
    Northland10 October 29, 2013 at 6:22 pm #

    Reality Check:
    John has been told this about 50 times and he still brings it up at every web site imaginable.

    John does not engage but only repeats.

  412. avatar
    Keith October 29, 2013 at 9:08 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: This site still gets over 13,000 unique visitors a month

    Wow.

    Just Wow.

  413. avatar
    jdkinpa October 29, 2013 at 9:13 pm #

    414 (and counting) Responses to The occasional open thread: No Whining! edition

    Is this a new posting record?

    Just curious as I have only been hanging around for a year or so.

  414. avatar
    JPotter October 29, 2013 at 9:21 pm #

    Northland10: John does not engagebut only repeats.

    A parable:

    When I was 8, my family moved, branch, bybranch, from Ventura County, CA, to eastern Okieland (yikes). My grandparents built a house on the crest of a bluff, with a trout pond below.

    One day, I was sitting on their porch, and a wooden picnic table. My grandpa came in with a fresh trout, and laid it on the table, sort of on display prior to cleaning.

    The trout was not yet expired, and, thinking it was free, started to flop, knocking its head against the wall—er, table—repeatedly, much to my alarm.

    My grandpa nonchalantly picked up a light hammer, and deftly dispatched the flopper with one precise, swift, targeted blow.

    A birther in an echo chamber is as a fish in a pond. Once removed, coddling is no mercy 😉