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Debunking Vogt’s 20 points of forgery: Part 1

Points 1-4

Douglas Vogt, believing that Barack Obama and others are guilty of felony and treason, submitted an affidavit in federal court in Seattle, asking a judge to forward it to a grand jury for investigation. In this affidavit, Vogt lists 20 proofs that Obama’s birth documentation is faked.

I invited commenters here to critique Vogt’s work, and I am compiling them into this article. Initially it will be presented in draft form so that additional commentary and critique may be added. Thanks to all who have or will participate.

Note: all images posted here are at the resolution at which I found them, and are not enlarged or enhanced unless so stated.

Point 1 – Forged Registrar’s stamp

The first proof of forgery is a forged Registrar’s stamp on the Obama Certification of Live Birth (the short form or abstract) created on or before June 12, 2008;

Obama released his official birth certificate issued in 2007 to some web sites in the summer of 2008; however, only the front side of the form was shown in a high-resolution scan of the document in JPG format. The certifying elements, specifically the registrar’s stamp, appeared on the back of the form remained unavailable, and not until staffers from FactCheck.org got hold of the document and photographed it, did we see the stamp. Here’s what it looks like:

Vogt argues that this image is of a faked stamp. To support that contention, Vogt raises 4 objections to it. Vogt bases his argument on the FactCheck image above. Vogt’s affidavit is scanned for the Court record, so it’s likely not as good as what Vogt used originally. Here is the Court version:

image

Vogt’s 4 arguments are actually the same argument 4 times, essentially noting that the Obama registrar stamp looks like a rubber stamp pressed much harder on the right side than the left (and giving 4 indications that such is true) but then claiming that real registrar stamps are metal  and wouldn’t display such distortion. Vogt writes:

…they are created with a metal embossing stamp that recesses the type. The machine that presses the stamp applies even pressure the length of the stamp and the inking is created by a carbon ribbon.

There are some generic problems with that argument. First, Vogt isn’t an expert on stamps, and indeed he never gives any reason to assume that the real stamp is metal except to say that he looked at some examples of authentic certificates and came to that conclusion. The stamp exemplars he presents in the Court affidavit are barely legible, much less allowing independent analysis of how they were applied. Here they are:

image

But let’s assume for sake of argument that Vogt’s samples in their original form are clear enough for him to determine that there was a metal stamp as he describes. The problem with his conclusion is that all of Vogt’s samples are from 2011 and Obama’s certificate is from 2007. What difference does that make? It turns out that it makes a lot of difference.

One of the birthers, using the screen name of Danae, had a Certification of Live Birth issued in 2007, the same year that Obama’s COLB was issued. She posted it at the Free Republic forum. Here’s what her registrar stamp looks like:

image

It is quite plain that the registrar stamp is clearly darker on the right side than on the left, just as is the case with the Obama registrar stamp. They both look like rubber stamps.  That is, Vogt’s examples from 2011 appear one way and two examples from 2007 look entirely different. Obama’s stamp is consistent with the other known example from the same year.

Vogt used the FactCheck.org photo as it exists on their web site today, apparently unaware that these are not all of the photos that FactCheck originally released. There is another much-higher resolution image of the stamp and I’ll present that now, reduced and cropped to fit the page. (Click on the image for the original FactCheck version.) It is clear that the right side is heavily smashed down, and that all of the letters on the right appear bigger than the letters on the left. It’s a rubber stamp.

Point 2 – Wrong registration date

The second proof of forgery is the fact that the registration date on the COLB cannot be August 8, 1961 but must be August 11, 1961;

and

Point 3 – Wrong certificate number

The third point of forgery is the Birth Certificate number on the COLB is out of  sequence for a registration date of August 8, 1961;

Points 2 and 3 are actually the same thing, looked at from a different angle, so I’ll cover them both together. Accepting the argument in Point 2 requires rejecting the argument in Point 3 and vice-versa. One could rephrase what Vogt is saying with something like: “either the certificate number or the date is wrong.” I fault Vogt with claiming 20 points of forgery. It’s really 19.

Vogt makes an assumption, that birth certificates in Hawaii in 1961 were numbered on the date that the certificate is registered. Under that assumption Obama’s birth certificate, which bears a registration date of August 8 should have a lower certificate number than that of the Nordyke twins whose certificates bear a registration date of August 11. In fact, Obama’s certificate number is a little higher than the Nordyke numbers.

This is a topic of particular interest to me because I spent a significant part of my career developing the specifications for and implementing vital records software at the state level. I wrote code and managed software developers over three decades. I am familiar with numbering systems and state procedures for numbering birth certificates. I was at the table when specifications were developed.

Let’s start out by what Judge Malihi, an administrative law judge in Atlanta ruled about the “expert witnesses” called by Orly Taitz in the Farrar v. Obama case, including Douglas Vogt:

The Court finds the testimony of the witnesses, as well as the exhibits tendered, to be of little, if any, probative value, and thus wholly insufficient to support Plaintiffs’ allegations.3 Ms. Taitz attempted to solicit expert testimony from several of the witnesses without qualifying or tendering the witnesses as experts. See Stephens v. State, 219 Ga. App. 881 (1996) (the unqualified testimony of the witness was not competent evidence). For example, two of Plaintiffs’ witnesses testified that Mr. Obama’s birth certificate was forged, but neither witness was properly qualified or tendered as an expert in birth records, forged documents or document manipulation.

And indeed nothing in Vogt’s resume suggests he has ever worked on a vital records system. So how does Vogt justify his assumption? He wrote:

I went ahead and read all 50 states and the District of Columbia’s, statutes and administrative code regarding the filing and acceptance of birth certificates.

That’s impressive if true. Vogt goes on to cite Hawaiian law, and we may infer his chain of reasoning from his selection of particular portions of the statute and administrative rules to appear in bold face type. However, there’s nothing there that explains when a certificate is numbered. He points out that many states have regulations requiring certificate numbers to be “sequential” which is explained to mean that the first certificate is number 1. Sequential numbering simply means “no gaps” when assigning numbers, not which certificate gets which number. Let me point out the gap in Vogt’s logic that appears on Page 10 of the Affidavit [emphasis mine].

The Model State Vital Statistics Act and Regulations of 1977 and 1992 defines the terms as such:

Section 1. Definitions:
(c) “File” means the presentation and acceptance of a vital record or report provided for in this Act for registration by the (Office of Vital Statistics [the state department of Health].
(d) “Filing, date of” means the date a vital record is accepted for registration by the (Office of Vital Statistics).
(j) “Registration” means the acceptance by the (Office of Vital Statistics) and the incorporation of vital records provided for in this Act into its official records.

That means the act of filing and registration happens at one time the same day by the State Registrar or deputy Registrar. They will check the form for completeness and then accept it by dating, signing and numbering the Certificate of Live Birth. That process is called filing and registration. This irrefutably means that the date of acceptance by the State Registrar correlates to the certificate number because it is a sequential number starting with the number one at 12:01 a.m. on January 1st.

Beyond pointing out that the Model Vital Statistics Act and Regulations is a product of 1977, 16 years after Obama was born and hardly applicable, the more important problem is that the phrase “numbering the Certificate of Live Birth” is not in the Model Act. Vogt just made it up. Again Vogt writes:

By Hawaiian state law a birth must be reported to the State registrar no later than seven days after birth. When a birth certificate comes in from a hospital or clinic, the registrar much check that there are no cross outs, all the fields have been filled out, the mother and doctor have both signed and dated the form using black indelible ink. The registrar then stamps the certificate with a date stamp and then uses a Bates numbering machine to print the unique certificate number on the upper right hand comer of the form. Finally the registrar signs the form.

There is simply nothing in any statute or regulation that mandates the processing order that Vogt describes. He just made that up too.

So if Vogt had no evidence to support his procedure, could it be true anyway? Well no, it can’t. Vogt says that the certificate is numbered before it is signed by the registrar and that’s wrong. Vogt, having no experience with vital records systems probably doesn’t appreciate the role of the local registrar, someone typically not be located at the state vital records office. Note on any of the 1961 certificates that the registrar signature is titled “Signature of Local Registrar.” There are date stamps for both Local Registrar and Registrar General but only the first signs the form. Typically we see on Hawaii forms that the Local Registrar Date and the Registrar General Date are the same (and state employee Verna Lee signs); however, this need not be the case. The 1963 “Alan  Certificate”  (reduced image below) came from the U. S. Army Tripler General Hospital and bears a Local Registrar date of 6 Sept 1963 and a Registrar General date of Sept. 10 1963, so the form was not processed at the state level until 4 days after the Local registrar signed it. Because certificates must be numbered sequentially, which in 1961 implied that they had to be numbered centrally, the certificate number could not have been applied until 4 days after the local registrar signed it. While this paragraph doesn’t invalidate Vogt’s whole argument, it points out that Vogt doesn’t know what he is talking about and that he makes stuff up.

image

Could Vogt fix his theory by saying that the certificate is numbered before the Registrar General’s date stamp is applied instead of before the Local Registrar signs? No, the evidence shows that’s wrong too. (I will add from my own experience with such systems, records are numbered last in the processing sequence because maintaining sequential numbers requires that all approvals must be done before assigning the number, otherwise a record could theoretically get numbered and not approved and ultimately create a gap in the numbering. Technically speaking, the certificate number, or state file number, is not a part of the facts of birth and so the registration of the birth doesn’t include the number. One way to put this is “the certificate number is metadata.”) But back to the evidence.

Certificate numbers are known for a few births around the time of Obama’s and we find that the certificate numbers do not run in the same order as the registration dates.

Child Registrar General Date Certificate Number
Ah’nee, Johanna August 24 09945
Nordyke, Susan August 11 10637
Nordyke,Gretchen August 11 10638
Obama, Barack August 8 10641
Waidelich, Stig August 8 10920

 

Glancing at the list, it looks more like the completed certificates were sorted alphabetically by last name and numbered in a batch at the end of the month.

Vogt makes the claim in his filing that various fake certificates have been put forward on the Internet to obscure the problems with Obama’s certificate (that is, he knows that his theory doesn’t fit the evidence); however, the first certificate listed above is the one that really throws a monkey wrench in Vogt’s theory, and it was published by no less a birther than Jerome Corsi who vouched for its authenticity. Mr. Waidelich’s certificate was published by CNN who went with him to the State Department of Health to get it.

With the assumption that Hawaii births were numbered in the order that they were accepted for registration disproven, Vogt’s entire argument for Points 2 and 3 collapses for lack of support.

Point 4 – No Seal

The forth point of forgery is that there was no evidence of an embossed Hawaiian Department of Health (DOH) seal on the COLB and that NBC journalist Savannah Guthrie publicly misrepresented that fact to advance her carrier;

Note: Usually when a birther uses the term COLB, it refers to the President’s short-form birth certificate released in 2008; however, in context this appears to refer to the long-form certificate released in 2011.

At this point, Vogt invokes his massive conspiracy theory to explain why people who have seen and handled the birth certificate contradict what he claims. Vogt claims that the conspiracy and cover up involves (at least) 18 people:

  • Barack Obama, President
  • Robert Bauer, Attorney
  • Daniel Pfeiffer, White House Director of Communications
  • Judith Corley, Attorney
  • Chiyome Fukino, Republican Director of the Hawaii Department of Health
  • Neil Abercrombie, Governor of Hawaii
  • Loretta Fuddy, Democratic Director of the Hawaii Department of Health
  • Savannah Guthrie, NBC White House Correspondent
  • John Does 1-8
  • Jane Does 1-2

By making this claim of conspiracy involving the Governor of Hawaii, Hawaii Department of Health Officials, reporters, media executives and attorneys, Vogt gives himself a license to discount any testimony from those who have direct knowledge of the facts. Vogt engages in circular reasoning, essentially saying: my theory is true in spite of the testimony of these people because they are in on the conspiracy; I know they are in on the conspiracy because their testimony goes against my theory. Making the conspiracy bigger is a typical way conspiracy theorists respond to evidence contradicting their theories, and we see that process here quite plainly.

Vogt invokes his “opinion” to explain why Guthrie lied, a tenuous string of connecting motives between General Electric, NBC, Guthrie and the White House. There is no actual evidence that anyone in the White House influenced Guthrie to lie, so we must consider Guthrie’s evidence on its own. In a Tweet, Guthrie said that she had seen the President’s long-form birth certificate and “felt the raised seal,” thereby contradicting Vogt. She saw it—Vogt didn’t.

When the White House Director  of Communications Daniel Pfeiffer held up the birth certificate before the Press on April 27, 2011, Vogt says that the seal couldn’t be seen, invoking this bit of the transcript of the Press Gaggle:

Q    You showed us a photocopy of one.

MR. PFEIFFER:  No, I showed you —

Q    Does that have a stamp?

MR. PFEIFFER:  It has a seal on it.

At a distance the embossed seal, which is just indentations on paper, was not visible, but this was to be expected. (I can’t see the seal on my own birth certificate from two feet away unless it’s held at the right angle in the light.) However, when handled the seal was visible and could be felt, by Guthrie. Guthrie also snapped two photographs of the birth certificate and Tweeted them. That evening Guthrie reported the event for NBC News and repeated into the camera that she had “felt the raised seal.”

Now here’s where it gets strange. Recall Vogt said “there was no evidence of an embossed Hawaiian Department of Health (DOH) seal.” But then he himself says that he used photo enhancement techniques on both the PDF version from the White House and the Guthrie photo, saying:

The PDF copy and Savannah Guthrie’s copy after the enhanced color adjustment had been made so the “seal” becomes visible on both.

So rather than being “no evidence” there was indeed evidence, and Vogt found it. His problem is to explain away the evidence, and even though he has no expertise in imaging whatever, he expresses an opinion that because image enhancements were needed to see the seal, that it was “not really there,” but again that’s not true. Here’s an enlarged, but unenhanced crop of the Guthrie photo. While the seal isn’t bold and sharp, you can see it definitely:

image

Vogt presents scans of real birth certificates from Hawaii, and notes that with “minimal adjustment of brightness and contrast” that the seals “can be clearly seen.” Some of them are clear and some aren’t. I scanned my own birth certificate, and the seal was sometimes visible, and sometimes not.

Here’s a photograph showing the seal on my own birth certificate. It’s bold and clear.

image

Here’s an iPhone photo of it taken straight on in even lighting:

image

The image is there but faint, just like with the photo Guthrie took of Obama’s certificate. Do you think you could see the seal if it were just held up at a distance? I couldn’t.

Here’s a scan of the same certificate using an HP desktop scanner. The seal is not all that sharp, but it is still visible.

doccesal

 

Finally, here’s a scan of the same certificate done with a Canon scanner:

image

You may notice a little bit of gray smudge, but that isn’t the seal; that’s the VOID mark built into the safety paper. There’s not a hint of a seal. And in fact, depending on the lighting you can’t even see the seal looking at the original certificate.

This simple experiment shows that birth certificates seals come and go depending on the equipment used to scan or photograph them. Douglas Vogt as a self-professed expert on scanners should have known this.

The elephant in the room, however, is the question of why even a forgery wouldn’t have a convincing seal on it. If the State of Hawaii is in collusion in a forgery as Vogt claims, then why wouldn’t that forgery have the State seal on it? The answer is that Vogt’s “mark of forgery” is reasonably considered a mark of authenticity because if someone were trying to fool people, they would have taken care to make the authenticating marks more visible.

More in Part 2.

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67 Responses to Debunking Vogt’s 20 points of forgery: Part 1

  1. avatar
    Curious George November 2, 2013 at 7:15 pm #

    The exhibits all look like hand applied rubber stamps. One should not expect perfection when a rubber stamp is applied by the human hand.

  2. avatar
    CarlOrcas November 2, 2013 at 8:44 pm #

    Nice job, Doc.

    I agree with George…..it’s obviously a rubber stamp. If you’ve used one more than a couple times you know that uneven pressure produces an uneven impression.

    There is absolutely nothing in the images that supports Vogt’s assertion that a metal plate was used with a single use carbon ribbon. Nothing!

    Next!

  3. avatar
    Whatever4 November 2, 2013 at 10:10 pm #

    I had trouble visualizing what a metal stamp with a carbon ribbon would even look like. Here’s an example of what I think Mr. Vogt is referring to:

    The machine: http://www.timeclocksunltd.net/widmer_date_stamps.htm

    And the ribbons: http://www.timeclocksunltd.net/cartridge_ribbons.htm

    None of the examples that have ever been shown for Hawaiian BCs look sharp enough or even enough for a metal stamp.

  4. avatar
    Slartibartfast November 2, 2013 at 10:39 pm #

    To me, the question to be answered for each of Mr. Vogt’s points is whether the artifact in question is more likely to be on a real document or a forgery. It seems like #1 doesn’t show anything inconsistent with a legitimate document, nor anything better explained by forgery. Somehow I think that trend will be repeated…

  5. avatar
    Notorial Dissent November 2, 2013 at 10:46 pm #

    I concur with George and CarlOrcas on this one. That is a rubber signature stamp. I have seen a great many of that variety over time, and they all have the same characteristics. Anyone who has ever used a large rubber stamp will tell you, if they have been paying attention at all, that one side is always darker and often less legible than the other, due to the simple fact, that when most people apply a stamp, particularly a larger one, like a signature and verification stamp, they will subconsciously, particularly if they are right handed, as most people are, will start on the left side of the stamp and rock slightly to the right ending up applying more pressure on the right side of the stamp than the left, and then lifting, which can also produce the smudge as seen, as that is the motion our wrists are causing the distortion and darkness of the letters on that side. Don’t believe me, try it with a big stamp and see what happens. Now this is one scenario, I’ve used all these types of stamps and seen just that effect many times. The other possibility is that HI is using a stamping machine, still same principal, and if something like that is used often enough, as I would expect in that office it would be, they can get clogged and dirty, and they are not easy to clean, causing the distortion on the one side, or the stamp itself has gotten a bit out of alignment. In either event, hardly proof or even indication of forgery, but just an actual real world document handled in real world proceedings.

  6. avatar
    Whatever4 November 3, 2013 at 12:47 am #

    Any idea what the examples are from that Mr. Vogt put in his affidavit? They look like Oct 26 2011, Oct 27 2011, and Nov 3 2011. Are there any clearer versions?

  7. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 3, 2013 at 1:35 am #

    Ah. That’s the key. The 2007 stamps (2 examples) are distinct from the 2011 stamps (3 examples).

    Whatever4: Any idea what the examples are from that Mr. Vogt put in his affidavit? They look like Oct 26 2011, Oct 27 2011,

  8. avatar
    gorefan November 3, 2013 at 2:12 am #

    On page five of this butterdezillion PDF is anogther 2011 (May)

    http://butterdezillion.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/hdoh-red-flags.pdf

    It has the TXE in the stamp.

    And this 1995 Dr. Onaka stamp has a different signature

    http://rcradioshow.blogspot.com/2011/10/jerome-corsi-paul-irey-and-lucas-smith.html

  9. avatar
    Curious George November 3, 2013 at 2:25 am #

    Dr. C.,

    “Now let’s look at Vogt’s 4 arguments:

    [1] I have examples of legitimate Onaka Registrar stamps Figure 2 and they are created with a metal embossing stamp that recesses the type. The machine that presses the stamp applies even pressure the length of the stamp and the inking is created by a carbon ribbon. There is no physical reason Onaka’s registrar stamp should be darker on the right side than the left side.

    Vogt provides no explanation of his contention that a metal embossing stamp and carbon ribbon was used or that even pressure is a mark of authenticity. His exemplars of authentic stamps (see affidavit) are barely legible, much less indicative of how they were applied. But is it true? Apparently not.”

    For Mr. Vogt, the “proof of forgery” is apparently fluid and changes over time.

    In an interview by Sharon Rondeau, on June 2, 2011, with Mr. Vogt, talking about the Registrar’s stamp being proof of the long form forgery he stated:

    “Those two things gave it away as a fraud: the “X” in “THE” and what they did to the word “OF.” But also the stamp is too straight. This is a hand stamp that someone takes with his hand and slaps it down. It’s called “skewing.” It’s skewed, but this one is off only two pixels over three inches over the length of the thing, which is unusually straight, which I don’t think they could do. That’s 1/150th of an inch off….The other thing is that on the “A” for “Alvin,” there’s a script “e” embedded on it, and if you look at the bottom of the previous one, it’s not really there, The “A” is smudged because of the rubber stamp, and they must have hit from the right hand side of the stamp, as it’s darker there.”

    Mr. Vogt continues….

    “Subsection #7 is the rubber stamp, which is skewed. That is normal; it’s a hand stamp, and nobody is trying to place the thing down by the pixel. but the one we have on Obama’s certificate of April 27 is about as straight as you can get with an eyeball. It’s only two pixels off over three inches. That’s been electronically leveled.”

    Mr. Vogt makes no mention of a metal embossing stamping machine in this 2011 article. He clearly calls the Registrar’s certification a “rubber stamp” and then describes the application process is by hand and defines the reason for darker letters by stating, “The “A” is smudged because of the rubber stamp, and they must have hit from the right hand side of the stamp, as it’s darker there.” In 2013, Vogt states: “There is no physical reason Onaka’s registrar stamp should be darker on the right side than the left side.”

    This is a prime example of fluid “Birther” facts that change with the wind or the gravitational force of a full moon, or when it’s just expedient.

    This will never be reviewed by any grand jury in Seattle.

  10. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 3, 2013 at 9:09 am #

    Point 1 has been rewritten.

  11. avatar
    Bob November 3, 2013 at 9:32 am #

    For Birthers, eligibility is like pornography; they know when they see it.

  12. avatar
    alg November 3, 2013 at 1:08 pm #

    Of course, the only party that can legally verify it’s a forgery is Dr. Onaka and he is already officially on the record affirming it’s legit. Given that simple fact, nothing else is required.

  13. avatar
    Joey November 3, 2013 at 8:16 pm #

    alg:
    Of course, the only party that can legally verify it’s a forgery is Dr. Onaka and he is already officially on the record affirming it’s legit.Given that simple fact, nothing else is required.

    The birthers believe that former Governor Lingle, former Health Director Fukino, former Communications Director Okubo, current Governor Abercrombie, current Health Director Fuddy and Registrar Onaka are all a part of the birth certificate conspiracy.

  14. avatar
    Joey November 3, 2013 at 8:22 pm #

    I forgot to mention that Orly Taitz has sued all the Hawaii Department of Health officials, past and present plus Nancy Pelosi and President Obama in a Racketeer Influnced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO ACT) federal lawsuit in Mississippi.

  15. avatar
    Notorial Dissent November 3, 2013 at 9:14 pm #

    Joey:
    I forgot to mention that Orly Taitz has sued all the Hawaii Department of Health officials, past and present plus Nancy Pelosi and President Obama in a Racketeer Influnced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO ACT) federal lawsuit in Mississippi.

    Well, that’ll solve everything, now won’t it?????? (really need a snicker/chortle icon for moments like this)

  16. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 3, 2013 at 10:06 pm #

    The debunking of Points 2 and 3 have been added. dunstvangeet’s tabulation of dates and certificate numbers saved me considerable time. Thanks.

    These debunkings are time consuming. However, being careful has led me to realize that I had misunderstood some of the arguments. That’s good because there’s no value in debunking a straw man (should tell that to Mike Zullo).

  17. avatar
    dunstvangeet November 3, 2013 at 10:18 pm #

    Points 2 and 3 have one additional certificate: Virginia Sunahara was given certificate # 11080 (filed/accepted Aug. 10th). She was born outside of Kapliahoni Hospital, though. So, a more reasonable explaination is the following: Sorted by area first, then sorted by last name within that.

  18. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 3, 2013 at 10:44 pm #

    I omitted that one because it is less well-attested. It’s also a neonatal death which makes it a bit odd and perhaps subject to special handling. It rather muddies the waters.

    dunstvangeet: Points 2 and 3 have one additional certificate: Virginia Sunahara was given certificate # 11080 (filed/accepted Aug. 10th). She was born outside of Kapliahoni Hospital, though. So, a more reasonable explaination is the following: Sorted by area first, then sorted by last name within that.

  19. avatar
    Joey November 3, 2013 at 11:39 pm #

    dunstvangeet:
    Points 2 and 3 have one additional certificate: Virginia Sunahara was given certificate # 11080 (filed/accepted Aug. 10th).She was born outside of Kapliahoni Hospital, though.So, a more reasonable explaination is the following: Sorted by area first, then sorted by last name within that.

    Correct me if I’m wrong about this but don’t the births that occur on the other islands that aren’t Oahu (the Big Island, Maui, Kauai, Lanai, Molokai, etc.) all come in at the same time, which would be another factor in any numbering system?

  20. avatar
    John Reilly November 3, 2013 at 11:41 pm #

    Joey: The birthers believe that former Governor Lingle, former Health Director Fukino, former Communications Director Okubo, current Governor Abercrombie, current Health Director Fuddy and Registrar Onaka are all a part of the birth certificate conspiracy.

    Joey, I disagree. The Birthers believe a Black man can’t be President. Thus, whatever information or argument is advanced that he can must be false. They don’t really believe in this massive conspiracy. They just believe a Black man can’t be President.

  21. avatar
    Notorial Dissent November 4, 2013 at 6:31 am #

    Vogt’s biggest problem is that he has to all appearances no experience in any of the things he is pretending expertise to. He obviously has no idea how a birth affidavit is handled from start to finish, or the number of hands it goes through before it actually gets entered in to the records system. At a minimum, one or more records clerks at the hospital would have handled it, the mother or reporter handled it, the doctor handled it, and possibly another record clerk or two before it was sent to the local registrar, who then sent it to the state registrar where it may have been handled by one or more clerks before it went to the registrar for final signing, and then lastly as has been pointed out, numbered and entered in to the record system. At any point prior to that it could have been sent back to some other level for missing or incomplete information or signature, so it would not have been entered in to the system until all that was done and accepted. There Vogt totally fails in his analysis.

  22. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 4, 2013 at 8:05 am #

    What records system?

    Notorial Dissent: so it would not have been entered in to the system until all that was done and accepted

  23. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 4, 2013 at 10:34 am #

    The point 4 debunking has been added. Because of the length of the article, I will probably break it into parts.

    I would appreciate any criticism of Points 1-4, and if there are no corrections, I will make this Part 1 of the debunking and remove the “Draft” label.

  24. avatar
    RanTalbott November 4, 2013 at 10:39 am #

    “Vogt makes an assumption, that birth certificates in Hawaii in 1961 were numbered on the date that the certificate is registered”

    I think that should be “numbered according to”, since the CCP has already said that they knew the BCs were batched monthly.

    I believe there was an interview with a DOH official who described the sorting they did to “randomize” the distribution of certain characteristicsw, because they only sampled every second BC in those days for vital statistics purposes. I’m pretty sure that interview was published after the the early claims of “numbering proves fraud”, but long enough ago that Vogt should have been aware of it.

    It may also be worth pointing out that the sample size of BC numbers used wasn’t even big enough to call it “statistically insignificant”: it was well into “stupid basis” territory.

  25. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater November 4, 2013 at 10:43 am #

    Joey: The birthers believe that former Governor Lingle, former Health Director Fukino, former Communications Director Okubo, current Governor Abercrombie, current Health Director Fuddy and Registrar Onaka are all a part of the birth certificate conspiracy.

    Not just that but every single person involved in the department since 1961 since they claim that anyone could register a child being born there. With the announcements from the newspaper direct from the health bureau this would involve complicity. Further you have to throw in the johnson state department responsible for the 1967 memo as well as Kennedy’s INS for the 1961 memo.

  26. avatar
    Slartibartfast November 4, 2013 at 11:25 am #

    Doc,

    In your last paragraph of point #4, I think that the “elephant in the room” to which you refer should be more clearly delineated. There are two mutually exclusive possibilities of forgery here: a forged physical document (which, due to the necessary involvement of the Hawai’i DoH, would have had access to a real stamp) or a forged pdf file (which is absurd on its face due to higher-resolution images). I think that a brief treatment of the implications of Vogt’s argument (and the necessary contradictions which it leads to) would be a valuable addition here.

  27. avatar
    Joey November 4, 2013 at 12:29 pm #

    Slartibartfast:
    Doc,

    In your last paragraph of point #4, I think that the “elephant in the room” to which you refer should be more clearly delineated.There are two mutually exclusive possibilities of forgery here:a forged physical document (which, due to the necessary involvement of the Hawai’i DoH, would have had access to a real stamp) or a forged pdf file (which is absurd on its face due to higher-resolution images).I think that a brief treatment of the implications of Vogt’s argument (and the necessary contradictions which it leads to) would be a valuable addition here.

    Well said!

  28. avatar
    Joey November 4, 2013 at 12:30 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: Not just that but every single person involved in the department since 1961 since they claim that anyone could register a child being born there.With the announcements from the newspaper direct from the health bureau this would involve complicity.Further you have to throw in the johnson state department responsible for the 1967 memo as well as Kennedy’s INS for the 1961 memo.

    I meant the birthers who aren’t already living in padded rooms and doing the Thorazine shuffle.

  29. avatar
    Joey November 4, 2013 at 12:40 pm #

    John Reilly: Joey, I disagree.The Birthers believe a Black man can’t be President.Thus, whatever information or argument is advanced that he can must be false.They don’t really believe in this massive conspiracy.They just believe a Black man can’t be President.

    Well, there are those birthers who supported black right wingers Alan West and Herman Cain. I just read a birther post this morning castigating Colonel Alan West for deserting the birther movement. If you’re black and liberal, they hate you.

  30. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater November 4, 2013 at 1:52 pm #

    Joey: Well, there are those birthers who supported black right wingers Alan West and Herman Cain. I just read a birther post this morning castigating Colonel Alan West for deserting the birther movement. If you’re black and liberal, they hate you.

    “Supporting” they know neither man ever had a shot to be nominated so their support is hollow. They would never have to actually support them.

  31. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund November 4, 2013 at 3:14 pm #

    Additional information supporting a monthly number assignment: the 1962 law that Vogt partially cites:

    Section 2. Time allowed for birth report. A certificate of live birth shall be filed within 7 days from the date of occurrence.

    Section 8. Transmittal of certificates. Local registrars shall transmit certificates filed with them weekly to the State Health Department, except that on the outlying islands all certificates on hand the 4th of the month following the month of occurrence shall be airmailed immediately.

    The bold is the part Vogt deliberately left out. First, the two sections make it clear that the filing was with the local registrar, not the State. Second, the second section makes it clear that the State was collecting files on a monthly basis, and thus needed the outlying islands to send in their certificates in an expeditious manner.

    The filing system sort order seems to be:

    1. By month
    2. By region
    3. Alphabetical by last name
    4. By birth order (in the case of multiple births)

    This would explain all of the known certificate numbers for 1961.

  32. avatar
    Hermitian November 4, 2013 at 4:30 pm #

    Point No. 1

    Onaka used a different stamp for his Arizona verification letter. The stamp impression is near perfect indicating that a metal stamp was applied.

    Maybe Onaka has one metal stamp for his own use for birth certificates and the forger had a rubber counterfeit stamp made to stamp his forgeries.

  33. avatar
    Kiwiwriter November 4, 2013 at 5:12 pm #

    Joey:
    I forgot to mention that Orly Taitz has sued all the Hawaii Department of Health officials, past and present plus Nancy Pelosi and President Obama in a Racketeer Influnced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO ACT) federal lawsuit in Mississippi.

    I feel sorry for the poor guys in Hawaii who have to deal with Ms. Taitz and her endless screeching.

  34. avatar
    Joey November 4, 2013 at 5:40 pm #

    Kiwiwriter: I feel sorry for the poor guys in Hawaii who have to deal with Ms. Taitz and her endless screeching.

    Luckily for them, the state Attorney General’s Deputiy A.G.’s deal with Dr. Taitz and they are well paid to put up with her.

  35. avatar
    Hermitian November 4, 2013 at 5:43 pm #

    Point No. 1

    Per my last post it’s also possible that the text part of Onaka’s stamp on the Arizona verification was typed along with the text of the letter. In which case, Onaka must have a separate signature stamp or else he personally signed the letter. The latter is unlikely because someone else initialed his signature. That person probably applied the signature stamp.

    All of this would indicate that Onaka’s birth certificate stamp could be two-piece. If so, then the text and Onaka’s signature would be on separate stamps.

  36. avatar
    Kiwiwriter November 4, 2013 at 5:47 pm #

    Joey: Luckily for them, the state Attorney General’s Deputiy A.G.’s deal with Dr. Taitz and they are well paid to put up with her.

    Yeah, I know, but I’m in public information here in Newark, NJ, and I have to deal with screechers and whiners all the time…and last week, I had to cope with a conspiracy theorist who basically regards everyone in the world as being corrupt…I listened to his drivel, looked at his web page, and it was worse than incomprehensible.

    And some of these screechers and whiners have a nasty habit of going off on me when I don’t wave my magic wand and solve all their problems…and then complain to my bosses for my failure to do so…often in racial terms. It’s extremely upsetting.

  37. avatar
    Curious George November 4, 2013 at 5:56 pm #

    Doc,
    “Vogt makes the claim in his filing that various fake certificates have been put forward on the Internet to obscure the problems with Obama’s certificate (that is, he knows that his theory doesn’t fit the evidence); however, the first certificate listed above is the one that really throws a monkey wrench in Vogt’s theory, and it was published by no less a birther than Jerome Corsi who vouched for its authenticity. Mr. Waidelich’s certificate was published by CNN who went with him to the State Department of Health to get it.”

    Claims about fake birth certificates, including the certificate that Corsi vouched for, simply must be made by birthers to support their theories.

  38. avatar
    Hermitian November 4, 2013 at 5:56 pm #

    W. Kevin Vicklund: This would explain all of the known certificate numbers for 1961.

    Except for Obama and the Nordyke twins. All three of these births purportedly occurred at Kapiolani Hospital in Honolulu. Honolulu does not have a local registrar because the HDOH headquarters is also in Honolulu.

  39. avatar
    Curious George November 4, 2013 at 6:23 pm #

    Dr. C.,
    “The first proof of forgery is a forged Registrar’s stamp on the Obama Certification of Live Birth (the short form or abstract) created on or before June 12, 2008;”

    Notice the difference in the Jun 6, 2007 Registrar stamp on the Factcheck.org example and Vogt’s example he submitted to the court. Vogt’s example has the added, smaller “s” at the end of the word “Registrar.” Would anyone care to speculate who may have put the “s” at the end of the word “Registrar?” More 100% court ready Birther “evydunce?” Doc, do you have anymore photos of this particular stamp that you would be willing to post?

  40. avatar
    Reality Check November 4, 2013 at 6:29 pm #

    I see Hermie still has reading comprehension issues.

    Hermitian: Except for Obama and the Nordyke twins.All three of these births purportedly occurred at Kapiolani Hospital in Honolulu.Honolulu does not have a local registrar because the HDOH headquarters is also in Honolulu.

  41. avatar
    Slartibartfast November 4, 2013 at 6:31 pm #

    Hermie,

    Kevin’s comment (the relevant portion of which I included below) is correct—If the sorting algorithm is as he said, all of the known numbers are reasonable. Your comment, on the other hand, mentions local registrars while the algorithm assigns values without any resort to local registrars. Were you not aware that you were making a non sequitur or were you just trying to distract from the issue because you can’t make a reasonable objection to the algorithm?

    Hermitian: Except for Obama and the Nordyke twins.All three of these births purportedly occurred at Kapiolani Hospital in Honolulu.Honolulu does not have a local registrar because the HDOH headquarters is also in Honolulu.

    W. Kevin Vicklund: The filing system sort order seems to be:

    1. By month
    2. By region
    3. Alphabetical by last name
    4. By birth order (in the case of multiple births)

    This would explain all of the known certificate numbers for 1961.

  42. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 4, 2013 at 6:45 pm #

    My understanding is that Vogt copied the initial small “S” to the end of the stamp for the purposes of showing that the “S” is smaller than the final “R”. I found this confusing at first.

    I don’t have any unpublished certificates.

    Curious George: Notice the difference in the Jun 6, 2007 Registrar stamp on the Factcheck.org example and Vogt’s example he submitted to the court. Vogt’s example has the added, smaller “s” at the end of the word “Registrar.” Would anyone care to speculate who may have put the “s” at the end of the word “Registrar?”

  43. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 4, 2013 at 6:53 pm #

    Tripler AFB had a local registrar, and it’s in Honolulu.

    Please stop making stuff up. If you don’t know something look it up, or keep quiet.

    Hermitian: Honolulu does not have a local registrar because the HDOH headquarters is also in Honolulu.

  44. avatar
    Slartibartfast November 4, 2013 at 6:59 pm #

    Doc,

    If Hermitian followed your request he would never be able to post here.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Tripler AFB had a local registrar, and it’s in Honolulu.

    Please stop making stuff up. If you don’t know something look it up, or keep quiet.

  45. avatar
    CarlOrcas November 4, 2013 at 7:59 pm #

    Hermitian: Onaka used a different stamp for his Arizona verification letter. The stamp impression is near perfect indicating that a metal stamp was applied.

    No chance, in your mind, that the signature on the letter could have been scanned and included with the information that was printed on the letterhead?

    Hermitian: Maybe Onaka has one metal stamp for his own use for birth certificates and the forger had a rubber counterfeit stamp made to stamp his forgeries.

    Are you saying that Onaka signs or stamps every birth certificate?

    Regarding your baseless speculation: Why wouldn’t your forger have had a metal stamp made if he (she?) was making a counterfeit?

  46. avatar
    nbc November 4, 2013 at 11:04 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Regarding your baseless speculation: Why wouldn’t your forger have had a metal stamp made if he (she?) was making a counterfeit?

    Hermitian has remained totally silent as to why the ‘forger’ made it look as if a Xerox copier had created the document but based on his foolish ‘claims’ he still believes that there must have been a forger… Such poor research skills…

  47. avatar
    nbc November 4, 2013 at 11:05 pm #

    Reality Check: I see Hermie still has reading comprehension issues.

    Yes that conclusion matches my observations. He is just not very quick and often seems to forget his earlier statements or those of others. Laziness or just forgetfulness?…

  48. avatar
    JPotter November 4, 2013 at 11:20 pm #

    nbc: Laziness or just forgetfulness?…

    Just spin, baby. Nothing but spin.

  49. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund November 4, 2013 at 11:23 pm #

    Hermitian: Except for Obama and the Nordyke twins.All three of these births purportedly occurred at Kapiolani Hospital in Honolulu.Honolulu does not have a local registrar because the HDOH headquarters is also in Honolulu.

    Still waiting for Hermie to understand the written word, I see.

    Let me be more explicit.

    1. A baby is born. (I’m making a leap and assuming that you know what a baby is)

    2a. If it is born at a hospital, the hospital partly fills out a form and sends it to the local* registrar.

    2b. If it is born elsewhere, a form is filled out as designated and sent to the local registrar.

    3. The local registrar verifies the form is filled out properly, signs it, marks it as received, and places it in a file.

    4. On a weekly basis, the local registrar forwards the collected certificates to the State.

    5. The Registrar General verifies the form, completing it with the date received, and places it in a file.

    6. On a monthly basis, the collected certificates are collated per the above criteria (region, name, birth order).**

    7. The collated certificates are assigned sequential file numbers using a Bates stamp and bound into books.

    *In some areas of Honolulu, the “local registrar” is the State and step 4 is skipped
    **Due to their remoteness, outlying islands are required to send their collected certificates early via airmail to meet the monthly sort deadline

  50. avatar
    justlw November 4, 2013 at 11:32 pm #

    Hermitian: Maybe Onaka has one metal stamp for his own use for birth certificates and the forger had a rubber counterfeit stamp made to stamp his forgeries.

    If “Onaka” and “the forger” are two different entities, why is Onaka rolling over and doing silly things like sending certified documents to Secretaries of State? Or is he tied up somewhere and muttering through his gag, as The Actual Forgers send out all these things in his name?

  51. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund November 5, 2013 at 12:07 am #

    As far as the Arizona confirmation goes, that is an actual signature, with a witness’s initials (since it is not sealed). The text is part of the letter.

  52. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 5, 2013 at 2:07 am #

    I agree that this collating sequence fits the evidence; however, there’s not a lot of evidence here, specifically only one non-Kapi’olani birth. From a systems perspective it makes more sense not to sort by region.

    If the certificates are sorted just alphabetically, it becomes very easy to find a certificate in a book. The books would be labeled by year and month. Then to find a certificate, you need only look alphabetically by name in the year-month volume to get the certificate. If you add location, it gets a lot harder to find a record.

    That said, why isn’t Sunahara in alphabetical sequence? I can explain why it was different by the fact that it was a neonatal death, and they also also had to create a death certificate too, and maybe annotate the original certificate to say that the child was deceased. It might have missed the monthly batch and been numbered the next month.

    Sunahara’s certificate was 160 sequence numbers after Waidelich, who alphabetically would be towards the end. I think the number would work either at the end of a localized batch or for the beginning of the next month, indexed at the beginning because it was prior month. More certificates could help.

    W. Kevin Vicklund: 6. On a monthly basis, the collected certificates are collated per the above criteria (region, name, birth order).**

  53. avatar
    interestedbystander November 5, 2013 at 3:17 am #

    justlw: If “Onaka” and “the forger” are two different entities, why is Onaka rolling over and doing silly things like sending certified documents to Secretaries of State?Or is he tied up somewhere and muttering through his gag, as The Actual Forgers send out all these things in his name?

    And why hasn’t the person who made the forger’s rubber stamp come forward to claim their place in history?

  54. avatar
    The Magic M November 5, 2013 at 7:03 am #

    Joey: Well, there are those birthers who supported black right wingers Alan West and Herman Cain.

    Nothing but lip service to “prove we’re not racist”. If West or Cain had been elected (or any real chance of being), they would’ve come up with some African birth story as well, no doubt. They might like a black conservative more than a black liberal, but it’s still the skin colour that irks them more than political affiliation.

    (A typical sign is that they, like you do BTW ;), misspell Allen West’s first name. That wouldn’t happen if they actually supported him.)

  55. avatar
    Hermitian November 5, 2013 at 7:34 am #

    Slartibartfast: Hermie,
    Kevin’s comment (the relevant portion of which I included below) is correct—If the sorting algorithm is as he said, all of the known numbers are reasonable. Your comment, on the other hand, mentions local registrars while the algorithm assigns values without any resort to local registrars. Were you not aware that you were making a non sequitur or were you just trying to distract from the issue because you can’t make a reasonable objection to the algorithm?

    Hermitian: Except for Obama and the Nordyke twins.All three of these births purportedly occurred at Kapiolani Hospital in Honolulu.Honolulu does not have a local registrar because the HDOH headquarters is also in Honolulu.

    W. Kevin Vicklund: The filing system sort order seems to be:
    1. By month
    2. By region
    3. Alphabetical by last name
    4. By birth order (in the case of multiple births)
    This would explain all of the known certificate numbers for 1961.

    Except that HDOH regulations on vital statistics require that a birth must be reported within seven days. That doesn’t mean that the hospital writes out a note to be placed in the state archives.

  56. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 5, 2013 at 7:43 am #

    I have no idea what relevance your comment has to the present discussion on the numbering sequence. The requirement of the population and the medical community to report a birth is separate from the process of verification and filing.

    Hermitian: Except that HDOH regulations on vital statistics require that a birth must be reported within seven days. That doesn’t mean that the hospital writes out a note to be placed in the state archives.

  57. avatar
    Curious George November 5, 2013 at 7:48 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    My understanding is that Vogt copied the initial small “S” to the end of the stamp for the purposes of showing that the “S” is smaller than the final “R”. I found this confusing at first.

    I don’t have any unpublished certificates.

    Thanks. I found that confusing as well. It only shows that different hand pressure was applied to the stamp as it was placed on the document. More useless “irrefutable” Birther evydunce.

  58. avatar
    G November 5, 2013 at 10:05 am #

    Agreed.

    The Magic M: Nothing but lip service to “prove we’re not racist”. If West or Cain had been elected (or any real chance of being), they would’ve come up with some African birth story as well, no doubt. They might like a black conservative more than a black liberal, but it’s still the skin colour that irks them more than political affiliation.

    (A typical sign is that they, like you do BTW , misspell Allen West’s first name. That wouldn’t happen if they actually supported him.)

  59. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund November 5, 2013 at 10:53 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I agree that this collating sequence fits the evidence; however, there’s not a lot of evidence here, specifically only one non-Kapi’olani birth. From a systems perspective it makes more sense not to sort by region.

    If the certificates are sorted just alphabetically, it becomes very easy to find a certificate in a book. The books would be labeled by year and month. Then to find a certificate, you need only look alphabetically by name in the year-month volume to get the certificate. If you add location, it gets a lot harder to find a record.

    That said, why isn’t Sunahara in alphabetical sequence? I can explain why it was different by the fact that it was a neonatal death, and they also also had to create a death certificate too, and maybe annotate the original certificate to say that the child was deceased. It might have missed the monthly batch and been numbered the next month.

    Sunahara’s certificate was 160 sequence numbers after Waidelich, who alphabetically would be towards the end. I think the number would work either at the end of a localized batch or for the beginning of the next month, indexed at the beginning because it was prior month. More certificates could help.

    Excellent point, and is a much better explanation of the known facts. I had forgotten about Sunahara’s death when I first saw the list a few months ago and never made the connection.

  60. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund November 5, 2013 at 10:56 am #

    Hermitian: Except that HDOH regulations on vital statistics require that a birth must be reported within seven days.That doesn’t mean that the hospital writes out a note to be placed in the state archives.

    I’ll be generous and assume you hadn’t yet read my 7 step explanation (as modified per Doc C’s suggestion) when you wrote this.

  61. avatar
    nbc November 5, 2013 at 3:00 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I have no idea what relevance your comment has to the present discussion on the numbering sequence. The requirement of the population and the medical community to report a birth is separate from the process of verification and filing.

    Hermitian is not the smartest cookie and fails to often apply common sense. His ignorance continues to drive him to unsupportable conclusions.

  62. avatar
    Slartibartfast November 5, 2013 at 3:13 pm #

    Doc,

    As I said about the “local registrar” nonsense, it’s a non sequitur. Either Hermie doesn’t realize that (due to not understanding the topic well enough to discuss it intelligently) or he is intentionally throwing it in because he can’t find a valid argument against Kevin V’s algorithm (like, say, you did… 😉 ).

    Hermie,

    If you can’t make comments that are relevant to the points being discussed, you merely demonstrate that you are unable or unwilling to participate in a rational discussion in good faith. But I guess we knew that already…

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I have no idea what relevance your comment has to the present discussion on the numbering sequence. The requirement of the population and the medical community to report a birth is separate from the process of verification and filing.

  63. avatar
    gorefan November 5, 2013 at 3:25 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: From a systems perspective it makes more sense not to sort by region.

    FWIW, according to Zullo, Verna Lee said that the BCs were collected monthly and sorted by geographic region before numbering. I don’t see any particular reason for Zullo or Corsi to make up such a claim.

  64. avatar
    RanTalbott November 5, 2013 at 3:49 pm #

    gorefan: I don’t see any particular reason for Zullo or Corsi to make up such a claim.

    Lack of an apparent reason has never stopped them before. One of my harshest criticisms of the CCP is that they just made up stuff like “African” not being acceptable for race, or BCs being coded for the Feds, because they couldn’t be bothered to find out what the real standards and procedures were.

  65. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 5, 2013 at 4:08 pm #

    Upon further consideration, it might make sense to do this to facilitate statistical counts by region, which the State did.

    gorefan: FWIW, according to Zullo, Verna Lee said that the BCs were collected monthly and sorted by geographic region before numbering. I don’t see any particular reason for Zullo or Corsi to make up such a claim.

  66. avatar
    gorefan November 5, 2013 at 4:26 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: which the State did.

    The Federal guidelines were that the County of Honolulu was broken into two regions – the city of Honolulu and the rest of the County of Honolulu.