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Breaking: Arizona Corporations Commission responds to complaint against Cold Case Posse

Dissolution threatened

Today the Arizona Corporations Commission issued a letter to Arizona resident Brian Reilly, containing this statement:

We have received your complaint regarding the above company. In these situations, our process is to send a letter to The Maricopa County Sheriff’s Cold Case Posse, in care of their statutory agent, informing them that we have information that they have been without a valid statutory agent and/or known place of business address, or that they have failed to notify us of a change in one or both of those addresses.

If we do not receive a response back within the specified time period, we will begin the administrative dissolution process. If we do receive a response from The Maricopa County Sheriff’s Cold Case Posse, or if they change their statutory agent and/or known place of business addresses in our records, we will act accordingly, based on the information they provide.

The time allotted for a response is 15 days.

Listen to Brian Reilly discuss the letter on Reality Check Radio. For background on the story, see my article: “Cold Case Posse plays fast and loose with the law.”

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168 Responses to Breaking: Arizona Corporations Commission responds to complaint against Cold Case Posse

  1. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 29, 2014 at 8:12 pm #

    Mike, if you have any ideas about trying to escape this, I have just two words for you: “predator drone.” [The preceding statement was intended as a joke. We Obots aren’t equipped with predator drones, and we all have to share just one black helicopter.] [The preceding sentence was intended as a joke. Obots don’t have a black helicopter. All we can do is turn your cell phone on and use it as a microphone to listen in on you.] [The preceding sentence was intended as a joke. We can’t turn your phone on yet, but we do have your number.] [The preceding sentence is true.]

  2. avatar
    Reality Check May 29, 2014 at 8:30 pm #

    Now if the IRS will just initiate plan Delta-Alpha-Romeo-Papa-Alpha we will be all set!

  3. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 29, 2014 at 8:36 pm #

    Oh! Someone do feel free to post this at BR. Birther panic sweat goes for a premium on eBay!

  4. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 29, 2014 at 8:45 pm #

    Fuse lit.

    Andrew Vrba, PmG:
    Oh! Someone do feel free to post this at BR. Birther panic sweat goes for a premium on eBay!

  5. avatar
    JPotter May 29, 2014 at 8:48 pm #

    What they worry? They’ve been so responsive to official correspondence in the past. ;-P

  6. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 29, 2014 at 8:50 pm #

    RC, speaking of DARPA, do you have one of those things Edward Snowden talked about that can turn on somebody’s cell phone and record what’s going on in the room and take pictures. You have Zullo’s phone number, right?

    Reality Check:
    Now if the IRS will just initiate plan Delta-Alpha-Romeo-Papa-Alpha we will be all set!

  7. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 29, 2014 at 8:53 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Fuse lit.

    :) Dis gonna be good!

  8. avatar
    Benji Franklin May 29, 2014 at 8:59 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Obots don’t have a black helicopter. All we can do is turn your cell phone on and use it as a microphone to listen in on you.] [The preceding sentence was intended as a joke.

    I’m afraid your devilish cell phone feints can’t match the prowess of Team Gallups, who, like the adherents most one-true-religions, claims God has been texting his flock exclusively for over two thousand years!

  9. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 29, 2014 at 9:56 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    http://www.birtherreport.com/2014/05/arra-news-service-natural-born-citizen.html#IDComment836757834

    I dare say you have them stumped! Falcon and pals usually post their usual homoerotic/death fantasy replies to you within minutes, but only two birthers posted anything resembling a reply to you, and very weak ones at that. The rest of them are probably scrambling for some way to spin or dismiss your little bombshell.

  10. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater May 29, 2014 at 10:20 pm #

    interesting admission tonight on rc radio by Reily. He confirmed that Mannix was Mike Zullo. He knows that posse members were going on birther sites using aliases.

  11. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 29, 2014 at 10:28 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater:
    interesting admission tonight on rc radio by Reily.He confirmed that Mannix was Mike Zullo.He knows that posse members were going on birther sites using aliases.

    Oh ho ho! The plot thins!

  12. avatar
    gorefan May 29, 2014 at 10:43 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater:
    interesting admission tonight on rc radio by Reily.He confirmed that Mannix was Mike Zullo.He knows that posse members were going on birther sites using aliases.

    Did he say how he knows that? Is it a fact or is it speculation?

  13. avatar
    BillTheCat May 29, 2014 at 10:44 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater:
    interesting admission tonight on rc radio by Reily.He confirmed that Mannix was Mike Zullo.He knows that posse members were going on birther sites using aliases.

    Seriously? O.o

  14. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater May 29, 2014 at 10:50 pm #

    gorefan: Did he say how he knows that? Is it a fact or is it speculation?

    He was there when they used to go on posting on forums. It was one of the aliases he remembers as well as something about Nixon

  15. avatar
    Tomtech May 29, 2014 at 10:59 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG:
    Oh! Someone do feel free to post this at BR. Birther panic sweat goes for a premium on eBay!

    You should have kept this under wraps until the specified time period had elapsed.

  16. avatar
    Jim May 29, 2014 at 11:04 pm #

    Question for the lawyers, if the CCP is dissolved, do they lose there tax exempt status and then have to account for their donations? Could Zullo be looking at a BIG $$$ tax liability?

  17. avatar
    RanTalbott May 29, 2014 at 11:07 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: I dare say you have them stumped!

    Perhaps they’re afraid, after The Recent Unpleasantness, that admitting they read an antibirfer site will lead to being denounced as counter-revolutionaries. Or ostrichized. Or something bad.

    Or maybe they’re just waiting for their feckless leader to jump in and tell them what to think.

    It’s still entertaining to watch them get the story completely wrong, though.

  18. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 29, 2014 at 11:15 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater:
    interesting admission tonight on rc radio by Reily.He confirmed that Mannix was Mike Zullo.He knows that posse members were going on birther sites using aliases.

    Isn’t that the way real police conduct real investigations?

    Mix that up with appearances on internet radio programs with right wing preachers and who needs any of that old fashioned stuff like evidence….for heaven’s sake.

  19. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 29, 2014 at 11:18 pm #

    Jim:
    Question for the lawyers, if the CCP is dissolved, do they lose there tax exempt status and then have to account for their donations? Could Zullo be looking at a BIG $$$ tax liability?

    Lots of “ifs” but, yes, if the whole thing implodes and it’s determined it really wasn’t a valid non-profit then Zullo – and the other officers – could have some problems with the IRS.

  20. avatar
    Jim May 29, 2014 at 11:25 pm #

    Thanks Carl! Hey Zullo, better get cracking and clean this up or you could be looking at owing the taxman more than you took in with penalties!

  21. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 29, 2014 at 11:43 pm #

    Jim:
    Thanks Carl!Hey Zullo, better get cracking and clean this up or you could be looking at owing the taxman more than you took in with penalties!

    Just to be clear….I am not a lawyer but over the years I’ve sent enough money to them trying to deal with these sorts of situations to qualify for an honorary degree from the Taft Law School.

  22. avatar
    RanTalbott May 29, 2014 at 11:52 pm #

    So, is tomorrow’s Great Disappointment on Free Dumb Friday going to be that Zullo can’t make it because he has to find a new place to park his fake Shurfmobile?

    I hear the Phoenix real estate market is pretty tight, so they might have to ask their listeners to Send More Money™ because “As we all know, Mike, rented broom closets aren’t cheap”…

  23. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 30, 2014 at 12:27 am #

    Not a lawyer, but…

    First, I think it highly unlikely that the Cold Case Posse will be dissolved. This is an easy problem for them to fix.

    If it were dissolved, then no entity would exist attached to that 501(c)(3), so it would go away. If the CCP is dissolved, then according to its charter, all its assets get donated to charity.

    Here is the IRS page on the steps for closing an Exempt organization:

    http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Termination-of-an-Exempt-Organization

    Jim: Question for the lawyers, if the CCP is dissolved, do they lose there tax exempt status and then have to account for their donations? Could Zullo be looking at a BIG $$$ tax liability?

  24. avatar
    bovril May 30, 2014 at 4:43 am #

    Alas, I predict that nothing more than this will occur

    Zullo will pony up “a valid statutory agent and/or known place of business address, ” well, kinda….. and the Corp Comm will send them a letter saying don’t be a naughty boy again.

    Unless the IRS gets involved, which I personally feel is unlikely that will be it.

    The only upside is that Zullo (as the Kommandant of the CCCP) won’t be able to continue to dodge getting requests for details sent to him and THEN, if he refuses to provide the statuatory required details the Corp Comm MAY then get re-involved.

    I could be wrong, I would happy to be wrong, I just think Zullo will try and run this one out until 2017 or when the grift dies, whichever comes first

  25. avatar
    RanTalbott May 30, 2014 at 4:59 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: If the CCP is dissolved, then according to its charter, all its assets get donated to charity.

    Like, say, the PPSimmons Universe-Shattering End Times Predicting and Occasional Birfering Ministry?

    Alas, I agree with you and bovril: he’ll fix the registration (though possibly with the rented broom clost trick), and that problem will go away. The big question is whether he and Gallups will try to spin a “Breaking: Obots Attack!! Send Money for Defense!!” yarn out of it.

  26. avatar
    The European May 30, 2014 at 7:46 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    RC, speaking of DARPA, do you have one of those things Edward Snowden talked about that can turn on somebody’s cell phone and record what’s going on in the room and take pictures. You have Zullo’s phone number, right?

    Doc, you can actually (nearly) do that yourself with the MacroDroid app.

  27. avatar
    Notorial Dissent May 30, 2014 at 8:10 am #

    Zullo boy has a couple of immediate and pressing problems with the corp. He is going to have to provide a real address and a real agent to the Corp Commission, or they will dissolve him, and that will open up a whole other can of worms he really doesn’t want to face, he will eventually, but he can at least stave it off it for the moment. He is going to have to come up with a real legal street physical address, and a PMB won’t qualify, as it is legally considered to be what it is, a post office box.

    As an aside to anyone who cares, if Zullo continues to try and hide behind a PO Box, simple forward your requests as an enclosure to the SOS, if the agent is unreachable or no longer valid, they become by default the alternate person of service, and I can guarantee you that the only thing they hate more is being served as substitute of process.

  28. avatar
    Reality Check May 30, 2014 at 8:29 am #

    Agreed, this is easy to remedy. It will be fun to watch it unfold though.

    I encourage everyone to catch the replay of RC Radio last night. Brian Reilly called to discuss the response letter. Scott Tepper called and asked Mr. Reilly a number of great questions.

    Reilly thinks he remembered Joe Mannix being one of the names Mike Zullo used to post on blogs.

    Link: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/rcr/2014/05/30/rc-radio–birther-implosion-edition-5-29-2014

    Dr. Conspiracy: First, I think it highly unlikely that the Cold Case Posse will be dissolved. This is an easy problem for them to fix.

  29. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 30, 2014 at 8:33 am #

    I’m not familiar with Arizona but I presume that any Arizona resident will do as the registered agent, including Zullo himself (who is the registered agent now). The address is really the only problem.

    There are companies that will provide a registered agent for you, like CT Corp that I have used in the past. They want money though.

    Notorial Dissent: Zullo boy has a couple of immediate and pressing problems with the corp. He is going to have to provide a real address and a real agent to the Corp Commission

  30. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 30, 2014 at 8:36 am #

    If you would, drop a note in the Open Thread whenever there’s an off-schedule RCR.

    Reality Check: I encourage everyone to catch the replay of RC Radio last night.

  31. avatar
    john May 30, 2014 at 8:44 am #

    Interesting letter. Has the Arizona Corporations Commission actually sent a letter to the CCP. They only said that is the process. But, we have no idea if they have sent the letter or not.

  32. avatar
    JPotter May 30, 2014 at 8:53 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Fuse lit.

    A hysterical reply there, confusing the AZ Corp. Commission with county commissioners LOL!

    “LoL CON, those local county commissioners have no power about how Sheriff Arpaio runs his office. Soon coming an epic OBot failure.”

  33. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 30, 2014 at 9:10 am #

    Brian Reilly said that he was told that the letter had gone out. I should add that the time limit for a response is 15 days.

    john: Interesting letter. Has the Arizona Corporations Commission actually sent a letter to the CCP. They only said that is the process. But, we have no idea if they have sent the letter or not.

  34. avatar
    Reality Check May 30, 2014 at 9:21 am #

    OK, will do. I did not know Brian was planning to call until right before the show, which was also a last minute call. Scott Tepper’s call was a bonus.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    If you would, drop a note in the Open Thread whenever there’s an off-schedule RCR.

  35. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 30, 2014 at 9:53 am #

    john:
    Interesting letter.Has the Arizona Corporations Commission actually sent a letter to the CCP.They only said that is the process.But, we have no idea if they have sent the letter or not.

    What difference does it make, john? Do you see another conspiracy here?

  36. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 30, 2014 at 10:07 am #

    CarlOrcas: What difference does it make, john? Do you see another conspiracy here?

    John sees conspiracies in everything, but can he see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?

  37. avatar
    Jim May 30, 2014 at 10:16 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    First, I think it highly unlikely that the Cold Case Posse will be dissolved. This is an easy problem for them to fix.

    I agree, but it’s another jab in the gut to show Zullo’s incompetence. Heck, with the cars, the lack of financial disclosures, and now this…this faux investigation has shown much more law breaking by Zullo, Arpaio, and the CCP than the President or the anti-birthers.

    john:
    Interesting letter.Has the Arizona Corporations Commission actually sent a letter to the CCP.

    Well John, they sent a letter to whatever address they have on file. You may want to pick up the mail for Zullo or he may miss it and get dissolved. Maybe Joe Mannix will do it. :D HI JOE!

    Reality Check:
    OK, will do. I did not know Brian was planning to call until right before the show, which was also a last minute call. Scott Tepper’s call was a bonus.

    I was going to skip it and maybe listen later…then the calls started pouring in and ended up enjoying it more than the NBA game! :D
    Thanks again to all that participated…JY was hilarious in the chat room!

  38. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich May 30, 2014 at 10:39 am #

    I’m very proud to announce that on Birther Report, Mr. Scary Falcon has uncovered the news that I’m the one who wrote the complaint filed by Brian Reilly. No doubt that will come as a surprise to Mr. Reilly, but Falcon says so and who am I to argue?

  39. avatar
    bovril May 30, 2014 at 10:45 am #

    Bird Boy also seems to have an issue with Ebil Obots (or not as the case may be) asking why he is happy with Zullo breaking the law in this manner.

    But not to worry, it seems he has long fireside loving chats and cuddles with Violin Mike and there are “tons of congressional members on board” all waiting for the word to get rid of the Usurperating MoFo

    Oh and “Volin is adamant – Zullo is not some Mike Moore from Kooktown Florida”

  40. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 30, 2014 at 10:57 am #

    Comrade Fogovich:
    I’m very proud to announce that on Birther Report, Mr. Scary Falcon has uncovered the news that I’m the one who wrote the complaint filed by Brian Reilly. No doubt that will come as a surprise to Mr. Reilly, but Falcon says so and who am I to argue?

    You have your holocaust deniers, your climate change deniers, and your reality deniers. Falcon strikes me as someone who is all the above!

  41. avatar
    realist May 30, 2014 at 11:06 am #

    Comrade Fogovich:
    I’m very proud to announce that on Birther Report, Mr. Scary Falcon has uncovered the news that I’m the one who wrote the complaint filed by Brian Reilly. No doubt that will come as a surprise to Mr. Reilly, but Falcon says so and who am I to argue?

    Wow!! Birdbrain is just too smart and clever and has access to far too much information and contacts to put one over on him, by golly!!

  42. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich May 30, 2014 at 11:11 am #

    Sometimes I honestly wish I could take credit for half the things he imagines I’ve done to keep President Obama in office. The Commander in Chief would owe me, big time!

  43. avatar
    Curious George May 30, 2014 at 11:41 am #

    Comrade Fogovich
    May 30, 2014
    “I’m very proud to announce that on Birther Report, Mr. Scary Falcon has uncovered the news that I’m the one who wrote the complaint filed by Brian Reilly. No doubt that will come as a surprise to Mr. Reilly, but Falcon says so and who am I to argue?”

    How did that super secret slip out? There must be a mole that revealed that you did it! Go to Code Delta Red!

  44. avatar
    Jim May 30, 2014 at 11:44 am #

    Comrade Fogovich:
    Sometimes I honestly wish I could take credit for half the things he imagines I’ve done to keep President Obama in office. The Commander in Chief would owe me, big time!

    How about a nice statue next to the framed President’s BC in the Presidential Library?
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-r_BvhqKe_4s/TasLYh8Uh3I/AAAAAAAAAJs/Y7gXVZ9-t44/s200/foghorn+leghorn+01.jpg

  45. avatar
    Notorial Dissent May 30, 2014 at 11:45 am #

    At least it gives him something to have paranoid fits over instead of the usual small stuff, and it is so much fun to watch. You don’t even have to do anything.

    Comrade Fogovich:
    Sometimes I honestly wish I could take credit for half the things he imagines I’ve done to keep President Obama in office. The Commander in Chief would owe me, big time!

  46. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 30, 2014 at 11:52 am #

    Notorial Dissent:
    At least it gives him something to have paranoid fits over instead of the usual small stuff, and it is so much fun to watch. You don’t even have to do anything.

    In addition to ODS, Falcon suffers from FDS.

  47. avatar
    alg May 30, 2014 at 12:53 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    “First, I think it highly unlikely that the Cold Case Posse will be dissolved. This is an easy problem for them to fix.”

    Agree. This is a mildly amusing distraction that speaks more to the vaporware the so-called Cold Case Posse is made up of. No genuine and properly operating 503(c)(3) would have missed doing this or failed to file their tax statements with the IRS and then also have trouble with automobile insurance.

    It’s likely just another embarrassment to the MCSO. Little wonder they no longer provide an online link to the CCP website.

  48. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 30, 2014 at 1:14 pm #

    alg: It’s likely just another embarrassment to the MCSO. Little wonder they no longer provide an online link to the CCP website.

    Oh…..it’s still there on http://www.mcsoposse.org/ The posses aren’t listed on the main MCSO website http://www.mcso.org/

    The posse website registration is to the Communications Posse but the administrator’s e-mail and mailing address are county facilities.

    And the Cold Case Posse website http://www.mcsoccp.org/joomla/ is still there…..as out of date and useless as ever.

  49. avatar
    alg May 30, 2014 at 1:40 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Oh…..it’s still there on http://www.mcsoposse.org/

    It’s on the list and always has been, but they no longer provide a link to the out of date, useless and embarrassing ccp website. They once did.

  50. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 30, 2014 at 1:53 pm #

    alg: It’s on the list and always has been, but they no longer provide a link to the out of date, useless and embarrassing ccp website.They once did.

    I don’t recall a link being there and couldn’t find one on the Wayback Machine but they certainly could have at some point.

  51. avatar
    Nancy R Owens May 30, 2014 at 2:43 pm #

    Is it my imagination or, has one of the tabs, “Press Releases,” been deleted?

    [The News/Press tab is still there, but there were at one time videos of the press conferences on the home page. What I find ironic is that under that Press page, you find an article: "Elite team of 5 assigned to seek truth on Obama." It points to a WorldNetDaily article featuring a photo of Brian Reilly. Doc.]

    CarlOrcas: Oh…..it’s still there on http://www.mcsoposse.org/ The posses aren’t listed on the main MCSO website http://www.mcso.org/

    The posse website registration is to the Communications Posse but the administrator’s e-mail and mailing address are county facilities.

    And the Cold Case Posse website http://www.mcsoccp.org/joomla/ is still there…..as out of date and useless as ever.

  52. avatar
    Rickey May 30, 2014 at 3:20 pm #

    JPotter: A hysterical reply there, confusing the AZ Corp. Commission with county commissioners LOL!

    I saw that. They don’t believe that the Arizona Corporation Commission has the authority to dissolve the CCP because Arpaio.

  53. avatar
    Curious George May 30, 2014 at 4:46 pm #

    Rickey: I saw that. They don’t believe that the Arizona Corporation Commission has the authority to dissolve the CCP because Arpaio.

    They can dissolve it if the CCCP doesn’t follow the law. Just imagine an Alka-Seltzer being dropped into a glass of water….pretty soon, it’s gone.

  54. avatar
    Reality Check May 30, 2014 at 4:52 pm #

    That’s affirmative and we have iPhone, Android and Windows phone apps for that. And you folks laughed when Brian Reilly told the story that about Zullo throwing his cell phone in the glove box when he was talking about Lord Monkton and MI6!

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    RC, speaking of DARPA, do you have one of those things Edward Snowden talked about that can turn on somebody’s cell phone and record what’s going on in the room and take pictures. You have Zullo’s phone number, right?

  55. avatar
    john May 30, 2014 at 5:18 pm #

    Interesting show last night with Brian Rielly. I still feel bad for the guy on how he sucked up the Koolaid produced with the Arizona Verification of Obama’s birth certificate. I decided to go back and look at that again. I must point a correction – Arizona SOS Bill Bennett DID IN FACT ask for the DOB (Date of Birth) to be verified in his letter of verification to the State of Hawaii regarding Obama’s birth certificate.

    So then, naturally people will ask me then what is the problem.

    The problem is Hawaii DID NOT verify the DOB and neither of Obama’s parent’s names.

    Hawaii(Alvin Onaka) was suppose to verify these items and Alvin Onaka failed to verify these items.

    Lets look at the facts and evidence.

    Here is the form SOS Bill Bennett used to fill out his letter of Verification – http://health.hawaii.gov/vitalrecords/files/2013/05/birth.pdf

    You can see the complete SOS Bill Bennett letter of verification request here – https://birtherthinktank.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/arizona-verification1.pdf

    Let’s begin

    On the verifcation form Bill Bennett ask 5 things to be verified:

    1. The Name of the Certificate

    2. The Date of Birth

    3. The Place of Birth

    4. The Mother’s Name

    5. The Father’s Name

    In his letter Bill Bennett asks for numerous items to be verified directly from Obama’s long form birth certificate.

    Finally as an addendum (additionally), SOS Bill Bennett asked if the “Information” on the White House released long form birth certificate is a TRUE and ACCURATE representation of what is in Hawaii’s records.

    HAWAII RESPONDED TO ARIZONA SOS BILL BENNETT’S LETTER OF VERIFICATION OF OBAMA’S BIRTH CERTIFICATE.

    Alvin Onaka responded to it because he is the state registar in charge of Hawaii records.

    So What did Alvin Onaka verify?

    1. Alvin Onaka verified the existance of a birth certificate for Barack Obama in Hawaii. This is directly in par with the cited statute.

    2. Alvin Onaka verfied the Place of Birth by stating the birth certificate says Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii.

    3. Alvin Onaka verified the Name on the birth certificate.

    4. Alvin Onaka verified all of the listed items cited in Bill Bennett’s letter.

    5. Additionally Alvin Onaka verified the “Information” contained in the WHLFBC as MATCHING what Hawaii has in their vault.

    So what is the problem?

    Notice Alvin Onaka failed to verify 3 items:

    1. Date of Birth

    2. Mother’s Name

    3. Father’s Name

    So one must ask the question WHY????

    WHY DID ALVIN ONAKA FAIL TO VERIFY THE DOB AND THE NAMES OF OBAMA’S PARENTS??????

    That question must be answered.

    Obots try to defend Alvin Onaka’s failure stating that he verified those items because he verified the WHLFBC. This fails for numerous reasons.

    1. The request to verify the WHLFBC was an addendum (To be asked additionally) and so it not actually part of the letter of verfication. In any event this additional request CANNOT ERASE Alvin Onaka’s failure to the verify items directly filled out on the letter of verfication form.

    2. Onaka said the “Information” matched. Neither Bennett nor Onaka never said what that information was. So clearly the DOB and Father’s and Mother’s names were not verfied ON THE RECORD.

    3. Bennett asked if the “information” was TRUE and ACCURATE representation not that it MATCHED. Onaka never said the “information” was true and accurate. Just because it matches doesn’t necessarily mean the information is true or accurate.

    These things raised big red flags. Brian Reilly should have picked them up. The CCP and other birthers did but Brian Reilly missed out.

  56. avatar
    James M May 30, 2014 at 5:46 pm #

    john:
    Obots try to defend Alvin Onaka’s failure stating that he verified those items because he verified the WHLFBC. This fails for numerous reasons.

    So, any day now?

  57. avatar
    James M May 30, 2014 at 5:57 pm #

    Rickey: I saw that. They don’t believe that the Arizona Corporation Commission has the authority to dissolve the CCP because Arpaio.

    Well, not “because Arpaio” per se but because they have to consistently apply their rules and they will extend all benefits of process to them. They won’t summarily liquidate an organization, not the least of the reasons being that it would give the organization *more* benefits of process.

    If Susan Bitter Smith shows up at one of my university’s Hydrology events I will be sure not to bring it up… (Smith is very involved in CAP and other AZ hydro things, and is a liaison for a major funding source of my own PI’s lab :-)

    I love it when wingnuttery leads the parade down my own sidewalk.

  58. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 30, 2014 at 6:04 pm #

    john: Lets look at the facts and evidence.

    Wow! That’s some wireless connection you’ve got there, john. It’s amazing it works so well that far down the rabbit hole.

  59. avatar
    RanTalbott May 30, 2014 at 6:25 pm #

    john: Finally as an addendum (additionally), SOS Bill Bennett asked if the “Information” on the White House released long form birth certificate is a TRUE and ACCURATE representation of what is in Hawaii’s records.

    Bull: he asked whether the COPY was “a true and accurate representation”. As has been explained on numerous occasions, this is legally different from asking for verification of the information, and Hawaii isn’t running a free forensic document lab.

    Onaka verified everything, and trying to maintain the claim that he didn’t just makes you look even more stupid (if that’s possible).

  60. avatar
    john May 30, 2014 at 6:26 pm #

    john:
    Interesting show last night with Brian Rielly.I still feel bad for the guy on how he sucked up the Koolaid produced with the Arizona Verification of Obama’s birth certificate.I decided to go back and look at that again.I must point a correction – Arizona SOS Bill Bennett DID IN FACT ask for the DOB (Date of Birth) to be verified in his letter of verification to the State of Hawaii regarding Obama’s birth certificate.

    So then, naturally people will ask me then what is the problem.

    The problem is Hawaii DID NOT verify the DOB and neither of Obama’s parent’s names.

    Hawaii(Alvin Onaka) was suppose to verify these items and Alvin Onaka failed to verify these items.

    Lets look at the facts and evidence.

    Here is the form SOS Bill Bennett used to fill out his letter of Verification – http://health.hawaii.gov/vitalrecords/files/2013/05/birth.pdf

    You can see the complete SOS Bill Bennett letter of verification request here – https://birtherthinktank.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/arizona-verification1.pdf

    Let’s begin

    On the verifcation form Bill Bennett ask 5 things to be verified:

    1.The Name of the Certificate

    2.The Date of Birth

    3.The Place of Birth

    4.The Mother’s Name

    5.The Father’s Name

    In his letter Bill Bennett asks for numerous items to be verified directly from Obama’s long form birth certificate.

    Finally as an addendum (additionally), SOS Bill Bennett asked if the “Information” on the White House released long form birth certificate is a TRUE and ACCURATE representation of what is in Hawaii’s records.

    HAWAII RESPONDED TO ARIZONA SOS BILL BENNETT’S LETTER OF VERIFICATION OF OBAMA’S BIRTH CERTIFICATE.

    Alvin Onaka responded to it because he is the state registar in charge of Hawaii records.

    So What did Alvin Onaka verify?

    1.Alvin Onaka verified the existance of a birth certificate for Barack Obama in Hawaii.This is directly in par with the cited statute.

    2.Alvin Onaka verfied the Place of Birth by stating the birth certificate says Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii.

    3.Alvin Onaka verified the Name on the birth certificate.

    4.Alvin Onaka verified all of the listed items cited in Bill Bennett’s letter.

    5.Additionally Alvin Onaka verified the “Information” contained in the WHLFBC as MATCHING what Hawaii has in their vault.

    So what is the problem?

    Notice Alvin Onaka failed to verify 3 items:

    1.Date of Birth

    2.Mother’s Name

    3.Father’s Name

    So one must ask the question WHY????

    WHY DID ALVIN ONAKA FAIL TO VERIFY THE DOB AND THE NAMES OF OBAMA’S PARENTS??????

    That question must be answered.

    Obots try to defend Alvin Onaka’s failure stating that he verified those items because he verified the WHLFBC.This fails for numerous reasons.

    1.The request to verify the WHLFBC was an addendum (To be asked additionally) and so it not actually part of the letter of verfication.In any event this additional request CANNOT ERASE Alvin Onaka’s failure to the verify items directly filled out on the letter of verfication form.

    2.Onaka said the “Information” matched.Neither Bennett nor Onaka never said what that information was.So clearly the DOB and Father’s and Mother’s names were not verfied ON THE RECORD.

    3.Bennett asked if the “information” was TRUE and ACCURATE representation not that it MATCHED.Onaka never said the “information” was true and accurate.Just because it matches doesn’t necessarily mean the information is true or accurate.

    These things raised big red flags.Brian Reilly should have picked them up.The CCP and other birthers did but Brian Reilly missed out.

    you will also notice the neither Benett nor Onaka refer to the birth certificate but to a record of birth. Onaka does say a birth certificate exists but we have no idea if it true or accurate to anything Obama has released only as far as the information matches. My theory is that there probably a birth certificate in Hawaii but it is incomplete and missing information which why Onaka couldn’t verify the DOB and the parent’s names. This would seem to be supported by Governor Abercrombie’s contention that Obama birth was apparently “written down” or “recorded” suggesting missing information.

  61. avatar
    john May 30, 2014 at 6:30 pm #

    RanTalbott: Bull: he asked whether the COPY was “a true and accurate representation”. As has been explained on numerous occasions, this is legally different from asking for verification of the information, and Hawaii isn’t running a free forensic document lab.

    Onaka verified everything, and trying to maintain the claim that he didn’t just makes you look even more stupid (if that’s possible).

    That’s right. Bennett asked if the Copy “in form” was a true and accurate representation. Onaka never said that it was only that information in the Copy matched what they have in their files suggesting other vital records in the existance that don’t necessarily point to a birth certificate but to other records ultimately suggesting their is probably missing or complete information. DOB for instance might be verified but it not verified as being part of the birth certificate.

  62. avatar
    john May 30, 2014 at 6:40 pm #

    RanTalbott: Bull: he asked whether the COPY was “a true and accurate representation”. As has been explained on numerous occasions, this is legally different from asking for verification of the information, and Hawaii isn’t running a free forensic document lab.

    Onaka verified everything, and trying to maintain the claim that he didn’t just makes you look even more stupid (if that’s possible).

    Actually when I saw that the DOB and the parent’s names weren’t verified, I about fell out my chair. Onaka should have verified these items because they were on the form but he didn’t. That’s a big question has a very troubling answer to it.

  63. avatar
    bgansel9 May 30, 2014 at 6:59 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Isn’t that the way real police conduct real investigations?

    Only if they’re trying to find sexual predators…. oh… wait!

  64. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 30, 2014 at 7:16 pm #

    Onaka use the Verification in Lieu statute to verify the information. He would have been overstepping the law if he had written something else.

    RanTalbott: Onaka verified everything, and trying to maintain the claim that he didn’t just makes you look even more stupid (if that’s possible).

  65. avatar
    john May 30, 2014 at 7:38 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Onaka use the Verification in Lieu statute to verify the information. He would have been overstepping the law if he had written something else.

    That’s correct doc. Onaka used §338-14.3 Verification in lieu of a certified copy. However that still does not erase the fact that Onaka failed to verify the DOB and mother and father.

    Let’s look at the statue – “a verification of the existence of a certificate and any other information that the applicant provides to be verified relating to the vital event that pertains to the certificate.”

    Onaka verified the birth certificate exists. Onaka satisfied the first part of the statute. However, Onaka failed to satisfy the 2nd part. The DOB and the parent’s name were listed on the form to be verified. Onaka failed to verify both items.

    Big Red Flag!

    Let me it another way. Suppose Bennett left off the additional part about verifying the the copy the WHLFBC. How would have the verification changed? It would not have changed. Onaka simply failed to verify the DOB and parent’s name.

    It is a undeniable fact that can’t be refuted Doc.

  66. avatar
    Comrade Fogovich May 30, 2014 at 7:40 pm #

    BREAKING – Gallups yaps for 1/2 hour, says nothing at all. Awesomeness!

  67. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 30, 2014 at 7:46 pm #

    john: That’s a big question has a very troubling answer to it.

    Well pray tell, john…..what is the “troubling answer”?

    Please, don’t keep us waiting any longer. The fate of the nation, the world….dare I say, the universe…depends on your answer.

  68. avatar
    john May 30, 2014 at 7:57 pm #

    john: That’s correct doc.Onaka used §338-14.3Verification in lieu of a certified copy.However that still does not erase the fact that Onaka failed to verify the DOB and mother and father.

    Let’s look at the statue – “a verification of the existence of a certificate and any other information that the applicant provides to be verified relating to the vital event that pertains to the certificate.”

    Onaka verified the birth certificate exists.Onaka satisfied the first part of the statute.However, Onaka failed to satisfy the 2nd part.The DOB and the parent’s name were listed on the form to be verified.Onaka failed to verify both items.

    Big Red Flag!

    Let me it another way.Suppose Bennett left off the additional part about verifying the the copy the WHLFBC.How would have the verification changed?It would not have changed.Onaka simply failed to verify the DOB and parent’s name.

    It is a undeniable fact that can’t be refuted Doc.

    The verification of the WHLFBC is an addendum and did not depend on the actual verification items cited on Bennett and filled on the form. Remember, Bennett filled information on the form to be verified. In addition, Bennett listed 10 items to be verified in the birth record. As a addendum, Bennett asked that WHLFBC be verified in “structure” as true and accurate.

    Onaka verified each item cited by Bennett EXCEPT the DOB and the mother and father’s names.

    Onaka verified the “information” on the WHLFBC as matched but failed to verify that WHLFBC was true and accurate in “structure”.

  69. avatar
    bgansel9 May 30, 2014 at 8:01 pm #

    john: Big Red Flag!

    I thought red was your favorite color!

  70. avatar
    Andy May 30, 2014 at 8:07 pm #

    john: That’s correct doc.Onaka used §338-14.3Verification in lieu of a certified copy.However that still does not erase the fact that Onaka failed to verify the DOB and mother and father.

    Let’s look at the statue – “a verification of the existence of a certificate and any other information that the applicant provides to be verified relating to the vital event that pertains to the certificate.”

    Onaka verified the birth certificate exists.Onaka satisfied the first part of the statute.However, Onaka failed to satisfy the 2nd part.The DOB and the parent’s name were listed on the form to be verified.Onaka failed to verify both items.

    Big Red Flag!

    No, John. Onaka verified the “the existence of a certificate” (this is items #1 & 2 in the verification). Then he verified “any other information that the applicant provides to be verified relating to the vital event that pertains to the certificate” (this i items #3-12).

    See John, the numbers have to add up. He can’t verify more or less than what is requested.

  71. avatar
    HistorianDude May 30, 2014 at 8:24 pm #

    john: That’s correct doc.Onaka used §338-14.3Verification in lieu of a certified copy.However that still does not erase the fact that Onaka failed to verify the DOB and mother and father.

    In simple point of fact, Onaka explicitly verified all the information on the copy of the President’s long form that Bennett sent.

    This includes the President’s date of birth, and the names of his parents.

    End of story.

  72. avatar
    HistorianDude May 30, 2014 at 8:26 pm #

    john: Actually when I saw that the DOB and the parent’s names weren’t verified, I about fell out my chair.

    Perhaps you should consider seat-belts?

  73. avatar
    bob May 30, 2014 at 8:32 pm #

    john: Here is the form SOS Bill Bennett used to fill out his letter of Verification – http://health.hawaii.gov/vitalrecords/files/2013/05/birth.pdf

    That is a blank form. For a request for a certified birth record.

    You infer that Bennett completed this form. But you provide no evidence that he did. And, even assuming that he did use that form, you provide no evidence that on this allegedly completed form that he filled out President Obama’s parents’ names, or his date of birth.

    Onaka’s responses mirror the requests in Bennett’s letter. This is not noteworthy except to you.

  74. avatar
    sfjeff May 30, 2014 at 8:33 pm #

    john: So What did Alvin Onaka verify?

    1. Alvin Onaka verified the existance of a birth certificate for Barack Obama in Hawaii. This is directly in par with the cited statute.

    2. Alvin Onaka verfied the Place of Birth by stating the birth certificate says Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii.

    3. Alvin Onaka verified the Name on the birth certificate.

    4. Alvin Onaka verified all of the listed items cited in Bill Bennett’s letter.

    5. Additionally Alvin Onaka verified the “Information” contained in the WHLFBC as MATCHING what Hawaii has in their vault.

    I know you won’t get this John.

    But what you just agreed is that Alvin Onaka confirmed that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii and is therefore a natural born citizen.

    Everything else is really irrelevant.

    I will also point out that Onaka confirmed that the BC that the white house showed all of us matches what Hawaii has.

    Unless you think that Obama was really under 35 years old and that was what you believe is the issue- you have just confirmed that Onaka made it completely clear that Obama was eligible to be President.

    But its never that simple for you is it.

  75. avatar
    john May 30, 2014 at 8:34 pm #

    HistorianDude: In simple point of fact, Onaka explicitly verified all the information on the copy of the President’s long form that Bennett sent.

    This includes the President’s date of birth, and the names of his parents.

    End of story.

    Wrong! and thats the point the additional request from Bennett was independent to the actual letter of verification form that was filled out by Bennett. The items on the form were explicity asked to be verified. Onaka explicity verified each one EXCEPT the DOB and parents. There is no way to escape this fact.

  76. avatar
    HistorianDude May 30, 2014 at 8:37 pm #

    RanTalbott: Bull: he asked whether the COPY was “a true and accurate representation”. As has been explained on numerous occasions, this is legally different from asking for verification of the information, and Hawaii isn’t running a free forensic document lab.

    This is a very important point. Specifically, Onaka could not say that it was “a true and accurate representation” of the President’s birth certificate because, surprise, surprise that would not have been true. It is (at best) a true and accurate representation of the first 23 fields of that certificate, roughly 1/3 of the actual document.

    Perhaps John is unaware that all Certified Copies of US Birth certificates are short forms, even the ones we call “long forms.” They are issued with only the top of the certificate replicated, and not as copies of the whole since most of the certificate collects information that is used only for administrative or medical/health purposes. Here (just for example) is what the current US Standard Certificate of Live Birth looks like:

    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/birth11-03final-acc.pdf

    You will note that below the line reading “Information for Administrative Use” is a vast amount of information that is not included on any certified copy of any birth certificate issued by any state or local registrar.

    A certified copy of a birth certificate is no more “a true and accurate representation” of the original than a portrait of a person;s face is “a true and accurate representation” of a person.

  77. avatar
    john May 30, 2014 at 8:38 pm #

    bob: https://birtherthinktank.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/arizona-verification1.pdf

    Wrong – https://birtherthinktank.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/arizona-verification1.pdf

    Bennett used the form and specifically asked for the DOB and parent’s names to be verified. That was key. Onaka failed to verify them. The additional request about WHLFBC was extra and independent to Bennett’s actual request even though it was part of the letter.

  78. avatar
    john May 30, 2014 at 8:43 pm #

    HistorianDude: In simple point of fact, Onaka explicitly verified all the information on the copy of the President’s long form that Bennett sent.

    This includes the President’s date of birth, and the names of his parents.

    End of story.

    It really makes no sense. Why would Onaka verfiy each item in the first place when could verify everything at once as you suggest. You can’t have your cake and eat it. Either he verified or he didn’t and the fact is he didn’t verify the DOB and parent’s names. No way to escape this fact.

  79. avatar
    Bonsall Obot May 30, 2014 at 8:45 pm #

    A racist, drive-by troll who won’t respond to direct questions said:

    (Lots and lots of tendentious misdirection)

    If you believed even one thing you’ve said, even one, why in the world are you whining on blogs? Why would you not contact SOS Bennett, or Alvin Onaka, or your congressman, or somebody, anybody, instead of whining on blogs?

    I’d really like to know. But john will never explain why, because he is a drive-by racist troll.

  80. avatar
    john May 30, 2014 at 8:52 pm #

    HistorianDude: This is a very important point. Specifically, Onaka could not say that it was “a true and accurate representation” of the President’s birth certificate because, surprise, surprise that would not have been true. It is (at best) a true and accurate representation of the first 23 fields of that certificate, roughly 1/3 of the actual document.

    Perhaps John is unaware that all Certified Copies of US Birth certificates are short forms, even the ones we call “long forms.” They are issued with only the top of the certificate replicated, and not as copies of the whole since most of the certificate collects information that is used only for administrative or medical/health purposes. Here (just for example) is what the current US Standard Certificate of Live Birth looks like:

    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/birth11-03final-acc.pdf

    You will note that below the line reading “Information for Administrative Use” is a vast amount of information that is not included on any certified copy of any birth certificate issued by any state or local registrar.

    A certified copy of a birth certificate is no more “a true and accurate representation” of the original than a portrait of a person;s face is “a true and accurate representation” of a person.

    i don’t think that would do it. Take look at Nordykes’s BC – http://obamanotqualified.com/images/nordyke-twins-1961-hawaian-birth-certificate-01c.jpg

    Notice what is says that bottom. It says what is on the birth certficate is a true and correct (accurate) copy of what is in the orginal record.

    Since this birth certificate is identical to that of Obama in form, Onaka could say it was true and accurate but he didn’t.

  81. avatar
    OllieOxenFree May 30, 2014 at 8:54 pm #

    @john

    So your argument is that Obama was born to a mother who’s birthplace was Wichita, Kansas and a father who was born in Kenya, East Africa… but not to the parents Obama claims?

    I mean, if your argument is that if Onaka did not verify the parents’ names that something must be wrong, then by verifying at least their birthplaces means at least that much of the information must be accurate, correct?

  82. avatar
    J.D. Sue May 30, 2014 at 8:59 pm #

    HistorianDude: A certified copy of a birth certificate is no more “a true and accurate representation” of the original than a portrait of a person;s face is “a true and accurate representation” of a person.

    —-
    Nice.

  83. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 30, 2014 at 9:08 pm #

    Verifications fall under a different statutory provision than certified copies. Plus, the PDF isn’t a certified copy in the first place. It is a picture of one.

    john: Since this birth certificate is identical to that of Obama in form, Onaka could say it was true and accurate but he didn’t.

  84. avatar
    Dave May 30, 2014 at 9:12 pm #

    John has successfully hijacked this thread, but sometimes the oldies are the goodies. And this one is certainly an oldie: John has copied almost verbatim stuff Butterdezillion and Klayman said almost two years ago. The intervening years have not caused those things to start making sense.

    Two comments:

    First, since John refers to Birther Think Tank for the copy of Bennett’s letter, I will put in a link to the article: Larry Klayman’s Brief Career as a Criminal Defense Attorney???.

    Second, I haven’t seen a copy of Onaka’s letter. The quotes birthers pull out of that letter are already fatal to their interpretation, but still, I would be interested in seeing the whole thing.

  85. avatar
    Georgetown JD May 30, 2014 at 9:15 pm #

    Jim:
    Question for the lawyers, if the CCP is dissolved, do they lose there tax exempt status and then have to account for their donations? Could Zullo be looking at a BIG $$$ tax liability?

    If a 501(c)(3) organizations’s status is revoked, the corporation must file regular corporate tax returns, the Form 1120. Generally the revocation is prospective, but if the IRS were to determine that the organization was not organized or was never operated exclusively for charitable purposes, the revocation can be made retroactive, in which case the failed org must go back and file 1120s for prior years.

    The Form 1120 is confidential, so it would have to account for all donations and expenditures, but the public would not see that filing.

    Also, if corporate resources had been diverted for the enrichment of individuals, those individuals could face audits to determine whether it was reported as income on their individual returns, as required by section 61 of the tax code. Hopefully the organization would have issued W-2s or 1099s, in order to deduct the compensation paid (whether in money or in-kind, such as the value of travel, meals, etc.). If treated as wages, the organization can be hit with a penalty for failing to withhold income and employment taxes; the principals of the corporation can also be held liable for penalties in some circumstances for the corporation’s failure to remit employment taxes.

  86. avatar
    Rickey May 30, 2014 at 9:24 pm #

    john:

    On the verifcation form Bill Bennett ask 5 things to be verified:

    1.The Name of the Certificate

    2.The Date of Birth

    3.The Place of Birth

    4.The Mother’s Name

    5.The Father’s Name

    I see that your reading comprehension deficit has kicked in again.

    In point of fact Bennett didn’t specifically ask that any of those five items be separately verified. He simply was filling out the relevant form and providing enough information so that Hawaii could accurately identify the record for which he was requesting a verification.

    You are, as far as I can tell, the only birther who is still going down this particular rabbit hole.

  87. avatar
    john May 30, 2014 at 9:27 pm #

    Rickey: I see that your reading comprehension deficit has kicked in again.

    In point of fact Bennett didn’t specifically ask that any of those five items be separately verified. He simply was filling out the relevant form and providing enough information so that Hawaii could accurately identify the record for which he was requesting a verification.

    You are, as far as I can tell, the only birther who is still going down this particular rabbit hole.

    If you go that route, your right back to where you started. Why then didn’t SOS Bennett ask for the DOB is be verified but felt he needed to verify the age of the father.

  88. avatar
    Curious George May 30, 2014 at 9:37 pm #

    John wrote the following…..

    ” I must point a correction – Arizona SOS Bill Bennett DID IN FACT ask for the DOB (Date of Birth) to be verified in his letter of verification to the State of Hawaii regarding Obama’s birth certificate.”

    I too must make a correction.

    “Let’s begin”

    The Arizona Secretary of State is Ken Bennett, NOT “Bill” Bennett. “Bill” is the county PA who turned down the Cold Case Posse evidence back in 2012!

    Great investigative skills John!

    Has anyone else noticed that the first one to come to the aid of the Cold Case Posse when they screw up is none other than our friend….John?

    I’m still waiting for you to answer my question…….How much money has the Cold Case Posse brought in since they began this investimagination and how was the money spent? Pick One: A. $100,000 B.$ 200,000 C.$ 300,000 D. $400,000 E. $500,000 F. $800,000+.

    A good CCCP member like yourself should know the answer.

  89. avatar
    bob May 30, 2014 at 9:46 pm #

    john: Wrong – https://birtherthinktank.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/arizona-verification1.pdf

    Bennett used the form and specifically asked for the DOB and parent’s names to be verified.

    Says you. Prove that Bennett used that form.

  90. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 30, 2014 at 10:01 pm #

    Dave: John has successfully hijacked this thread, but sometimes the oldies are the goodies. And this one is certainly an oldie: John has copied almost verbatim stuff Butterdezillion and Klayman said almost two years ago. The intervening years have not caused those things to start making sense.

    He’s also posted some of it….verbatim….as Jim Youngblood on Birther Report.

  91. avatar
    bgansel9 May 30, 2014 at 10:10 pm #

    Secretary Bennett stated: ““We never requested a birth certificate. What we requested was a verification from Hawaii that the information on the president’s birth certificate was accurate,” Bennett’s spokesman Matthew Roberts told Reuters.”

    So, what you are stating is that there is another baby who was born in Hawaii who had a mother born in Wichita, Kansas and a father born in Kenya, and that baby was born at the same hospital at the same time of day? Wow, that’s some coincidence.

    Secretary Bennett was asking for additional information on the certificate that he listed. The second form is a simple request form identifying who they wanted the information ABOUT (Barack Obama whose parents were Barack Obama Sr, and Stanley Ann Dunham) and Onaka stated: “I certify that the information contained in the vital record on file with the Department of Health was used to verify the facts of the vital event.”

    There was no other vital event that matched the information Secretary Bennett asked for. You are delusional.

  92. avatar
    john May 30, 2014 at 10:19 pm #

    bgansel9: Secretary Bennett was asking for additional information on the certificate that he listed. The second form is a simple request form identifying who they wanted the information ABOUT

    No, if you read Bennett’s letter, you will see that he specifically asks for the items on form to be verified and in additional the verification of the items he specifically lists separately. Onaka verifies all the items except the DOB and the parent’s names. If Obots suggest that verifying the WHLFBC was sufficient or that verfication itself verfies everything, why take the time to verify each item?

  93. avatar
    bgansel9 May 30, 2014 at 10:21 pm #

    Onaka also states below the listed information: “Additionally, I verify that the information in the copy of the Certificate of Live Birth for Mr. Obama that you attached with your request matches the original record in our files”.

    You lose John.

  94. avatar
    gorefan May 30, 2014 at 11:15 pm #

    john: It really makes no sense.Why would Onaka verfiy each item in the first place when could verify everything at once as you suggest.You can’t have your cake and eat it.Either he verified or he didn’t and the fact is he didn’t verify the DOB and parent’s names.No way to escape this fact.

    John the problem is that you don’t understand the way the verification works. Under normal circumstances a person files out the form with the six or ten items and in return they get a letter of verification that says yes we have a birth certificate on record for that person That’s all you get. You don’t get a letter that specifically lists each of the items on the form. If, like SoS Bennett you also ask for information that is not on the form each of those items is verified. Here is what the verification statute says.

    §338-14.3 Verification in lieu of a certified copy. (a) Subject to the requirements of section 338-18, the department of health, upon request, shall furnish to any applicant, in lieu of the issuance of a certified copy, a verification of the existence of a certificate and any other information that the applicant provides to be verified relating to the vital event that pertains to the certificate.

    (b) A verification shall be considered for all purposes certification that the vital event did occur and that the facts of the event are as stated by the applicant.

    Do you see the part that says “a verification of the existence of a certificate”. That’s what you get if all you send in is the form. If you also (like SoS Bennett) request additional items (the “any other information” part), they are verified separately.

    Think about it, what were the only items not specifically verified in the Arizona verification? The items on the form. Because those items are verified by the fact you got a certified letter of verification in the first place.

  95. avatar
    CCB May 30, 2014 at 11:21 pm #

    John said: “These things raised big red flags. Brian Reilly should have picked them up. The CCP and other birthers did but Brian Reilly missed out.”

    If I may ask, John, how do you know the CCP “picked” this out. I must confess I have not followed all the statements by the CCP. Indeed, it seems a common complaint that the CCP has not revealed any of the information upon which it bases its claims. Could you provide a link or citation to this assertion by Mr. Zullo or some other member of the CCP? Or are you an official spokesman for the CCP? If the latter, I suspect there are some people here who would like to ask you some questions.

    One other thing. Every time you use “CCP” I have to think twice because it is a common abbreviation for another secretive organization, the Chinese Communist Party. It also has red flags.

  96. avatar
    gorefan May 30, 2014 at 11:30 pm #

    john: Bennett used the form and specifically asked for the DOB and parent’s names to be verified.

    BTW, I don’t see anything in §338-18 that would have prevented any birther lawyer from getting a certified letter of verification Orly, Larry. Mario all could have asked for a certified letter of verification and specifically asked for each item on the BC to be verified.

    Why didn’t they? Afraid of the answer?

    §338-18 Disclosure of records. …

    (g) The department shall not issue a verification in lieu of a certified copy of any such record, or any part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant requesting a verification is: …

    (4) A private or government attorney who seeks to confirm information about a vital event relating to any such record that was acquired during the course of or for purposes of legal proceedings;

  97. avatar
    bgansel9 May 31, 2014 at 12:26 am #

    gorefan: Think about it, what were the only items not specifically verified in the Arizona verification? The items on the form. Because those items are verified by the fact you got a certified letter of verification in the first place.

    And Onaka’s statements on the verification letter acknowledge that.

  98. avatar
    Conspiracy Commerce May 31, 2014 at 12:50 am #

    Wow. That Brian Reilly is an interesting study. From the moving force behind getting Arpaio’s crew to looking at the evidence to complaining about Arpaio’s crew.

    Strange days indeed.

  99. avatar
    Suranis May 31, 2014 at 12:56 am #

    Poor John. All he can so is recycle 2 year old questions that is the basis of his “DOB” nonsence and and act shocked. In order to distract from the fairly devistating Brien Reilly interview

    John, everyone noticed that stuff on the form wasn’t included.BUT people noticed that those same things were not put in the LETTER Bennet Sent the HDOH. So people concluded simply that Onaka read the Letter and sent the Verification based on what was in the letter, but simply didn’t read the form for whatever reason. Probably that he was really busy that day.

    Its a simple and very plausible explanation that fits the facts. And people arrived at it 2 years ago. Onaka read the letter and responded to it, but didn’t bother reading the form, possibly simply assuming it had the same request as the official letter

    And now you are reduced to pretending the LETTER didn’t exist and that Bennet only sent the form. Bull

    And like I said to you before, if you can come up with the OTHER Barack Hussein Obama with a mother from Wichita and a father from Kenya born in Kaapiolani, you can have him sue for for identity theft and make a case that the BC was verifying onfo for someone other than YOUR president. Otherwise you are barking up the wrong alley.

    And Brien Reilly, eh? What a guy. Pity about your hero Zullo, huh?

  100. avatar
    Conspiracy Commerce May 31, 2014 at 1:03 am #

    I don’t know if the pdf is a forgery. Maybe it’s an authentic copy of an authentic document. Maybe it’s an authentic copy of a forged document. Maybe it’s what Zullo says, an electronic document created on a computer from assembled parts of other documents. The pdf is probably as genuine as obama and Dr. Con.

    I do know that if the prez was an honest honorable man he would let Zullo’s crew examine the alleged original source document.

    But even the obots know obama is not an honest or honorable man.

    obama is not honest or honorable, but if he is going to get the progressive agenda through, he’s allowed to be dishonest and dishonorable for the greater good. obamacare etc etc.

    That’s why the prolific partisan hack Dr. Con complains about Zullo’s “lies” but hushes his mouth about obama’s many lies and manipulations.

    Some things are just too obvious.

    If Zullo makes his case, Dr. Con and his minions will be the ones most worthy of close scientific study.

    Time will tell.

  101. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 31, 2014 at 1:12 am #

    Conspiracy Commerce: I do know that if the prez was an honest honorable man he would let Zullo’s crew examine the alleged original source document.

    A couple problems here:

    First “Zullo’s crew” are a bunch of civilians who belong to a non-profit corporation in Arizona – the Cold Case Posse. They have no law enforcement powers. They can’t write a parking ticket let alone investigate the President of the United States.

    Second and speaking of the President: He has no authority to allow anyone to “examine the alleged original source document” which would be the original birth record in the vault of the Hawaii Department of Health.

    He has secured a certified copy of his long form (and short form) birth certificate and shown it to reporters working at the White House and then posted a picture of it on the White House website where you can see it to this day.

    Your effort to draw some sort of equivalency between the political process and the birth certificate nonsense is just…..well…too obvious.

  102. avatar
    Suranis May 31, 2014 at 1:19 am #

    Yep, Obama could end this tomorrow by simply releasing a certified copy of his long form birth certificate.

    Conspiracy Commerce: I do know that if the prez was an honest honorable man he would let Zullo’s crew examine the alleged original source document.

  103. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 31, 2014 at 1:20 am #

    Conspiracy Commerce:
    Wow. That Brian Reilly is an interesting study. From the moving force behind getting Arpaio’s crew to looking at the evidence to complaining about Arpaio’s crew.

    Strange days indeed.

    Yes indeed. Some do find it strange when someone sees the light and changes their mind about something.

  104. avatar
    Whatever4 May 31, 2014 at 1:23 am #

    I do know that if the prez was an honest honorable man he would let Zullo’s crew examine the alleged original source document.

    Zullo’s crew never asked to see the paper document Obama had, and Obama can’t let anyone examine the original record in Hawaii because its not his. It belongs to the State of Hawaii.

  105. avatar
    J.D. Sue May 31, 2014 at 1:52 am #

    Conspiracy Commerce: Wow. That Brian Reilly is an interesting study. From the moving force behind getting Arpaio’s crew to looking at the evidence to complaining about Arpaio’s crew.

    —-
    Very interesting. He wanted answers and asked for Arpaio’s help. Then he got his answers when Hawaii verified the bc information. Meanwhile, he witnessed a lot of bs in Zullo’s operation….

  106. avatar
    Paper May 31, 2014 at 1:56 am #

    Correction: Time has told.

    Conspiracy Commerce:

    Time will tell.

  107. avatar
    Paper May 31, 2014 at 2:03 am #

    Indeed. Such as: the PDF is not a forgery, for the simple reason that Hawaii has verified its contents, and provided a link to it from their own site. Thus, it is even impossible for it to be a forgery, just as you yourself cannot forge your own signature.

    As you say, some things are just too obvious.

    Conspiracy Commerce:

    Some things are just too obvious.

  108. avatar
    Keith May 31, 2014 at 2:38 am #

    john:
    4. Alvin Onaka verified all of the listed items cited in Bill Bennett’s letter.

    5.Additionally Alvin Onaka verified the “Information” contained in the WHLFBC as MATCHING what Hawaii has in their vault.

    So what is the problem?

    Notice Alvin Onaka failed to verify 3 items:

    1. Date of Birth

    2. Mother’s Name

    3. Father’s Name

    So what is the problem? The problem is that you cannot understand plain English.

    I’ll repeat what you stipulated:

    3. Alvin Onaka verified all of the listed items cited in Bill Bennett’s letter.

    Did the letter ask for DOB or Mother’s name or Father’s name? No? Then Onaka satisfied Bennett’s request completely and fully as to those particulars.

    5.Additionally Alvin Onaka verified the “Information” contained in the WHLFBC as MATCHING what Hawaii has in their vault.

    Does the information contained in the WHLFBC contain the three data items YOU (not Bennett) specifically listed? Yes, indeed it does. Did Onaka verify every piece of information on the document? Yes, indeed he did. Since YOU have stipulated that Onaka verified all information on the WHLFBC, and those three items YOU asked for are pieces of that information, then YOU have stipulated that those three items were indeed verified by Onaka.

    Finally, the form you pointed too is a blank form, an example of the form that Bennett may have filled out. Nowhere on that form is there a request for verification of any data item what-so-ever. There are boxes to fill in to enable the DoH to exactly identify the certificate that is being requested. Filling in those boxes do not constitute a request that that data be verified, however, if the information is incorrect, the certificate that matches that data will not be found. The simple fact that the certificate was found is actually verification that the information is correct.

    Please remember that it is much better to stay mute and let people believe you are ignorant than to open your mouth and prove it.

  109. avatar
    Keith May 31, 2014 at 2:58 am #

    Conspiracy Commerce: I do know that if the prez was an honest honorable man he would let Zullo’s crew examine the alleged original source document.

    The “original source document” is NOT the President’s to allow or not allow inspection by anybody. Period.

    The document ‘belongs’ to the State of Hawai’i and is under the safekeeping of the Department of Health of the State of Hawai’i. The Department of Health operates under the laws and regulations of the State of Hawai’i as to who can access the ‘original source document’. President Obama has no authority, no privilege, no right. to override the Hawai’i State law.

    What you claim has nothing to do with whether or not President Obama is honest or honorable. It is simply beyond his capability, even if he wanted to do it.

  110. avatar
    RanTalbott May 31, 2014 at 3:29 am #

    Conspiracy Commerce: I do know that if the prez was an honest honorable man he would let Zullo’s crew examine the alleged original source document.

    Why?

    Zullo is a crook: a con man who suckers people out of their money by telling them lies they want to hear. He’s made a business out of libelling and slandering Obama.

    His “crew” are a bunch of hacks, who pretended to expertise they didn’t have, and embarrassed the IT industry by offering “professional opinions” that a sharp undergrad could rip to shreds.

    The only reason he should allow them anywhere near him, or his documents, would be to sit across the aisle at the plaintiff’s table while he sued their asses into a lifetime of penury.

    To even acknowledge their existence in any other fashion would be to lend them a dignity they don’t deserve.

  111. avatar
    Joey May 31, 2014 at 3:51 am #

    Conspiracy Commerce:
    I don’t know if the pdf is a forgery. Maybe it’s an authentic copy of an authentic document. Maybe it’s an authentic copy of a forged document. Maybe it’s what Zullo says, an electronic document created on a computer from assembled parts of other documents. The pdf is probably as genuine as obama and Dr. Con.

    I do know that if the prez was an honest honorable man he would let Zullo’s crew examine the alleged original source document.

    But even the obots know obama is not an honest or honorable man.

    obama is not honest or honorable, but if he is going to get the progressive agenda through, he’s allowed to be dishonest and dishonorable for the greater good. obamacare etc etc.

    That’s why the prolific partisan hack Dr. Con complains about Zullo’s “lies” but hushes his mouth about obama’s many lies and manipulations.

    Some things are just too obvious.

    If Zullo makes his case, Dr. Con and his minions will be the ones most worthy of close scientific study.

    Time will tell.

    Hawaii Revised Statute 338-18(b) permits a copy of an original birth certificate to be procured by “a person whose right to inspect or obtain a copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction.”
    Since the birthers would never trust anything that was released by President Obama, it would be better to have the original document inspected by a person with a court order.

  112. avatar
    RanTalbott May 31, 2014 at 4:33 am #

    Keith: Please remember that it is much better to stay mute and let people believe you are ignorant than to open your mouth and prove it.

    I strongly disagree: there’s a good reason that the original aphorism says “fool”, not “ignorant”. And people who engage in a lot of debate on hot topics, especially ones that involve uncommon knowledge, should always keep that in mind.

    All of us, no matter how much of an expert we might be in our professions or avocations, are “ignorant”, sometimes woefully so, in a much larger number of fields. The time when any individual could know even a significant percentage of all human knowledge passed many centuries ago. Ignorance is an inherent element of the human condition, and will only get worse (relatively speaking) until we figure out how to mechanically augment our brains by hooking up to an instantly-accessible library of (almost) everything we as a species know (And even that will only help somewhat: as we often see in debates with birfers, mere access to facts can actually be counterproductive if you don’t have the basic knowledge of a subject needed to put them in context).

    Ignorance is only shameful if it’s willfully self-imposed. And even then (at least arguably) only when it’s in an area we consider part of basic “cultural literacy”.

    Recognizing ignorance, in ourselves and in others, and especially not equating it with foolishness or stupidity, greatly increases opportunites for learning, teaching, and (importantly for the theme of Doc’s site) civil discussion of complex issues and topics.

    If you start with the assumptions that your opponent in a debate really wants to know the truth, but simply hasn’t had it (properly) presented, and that there may well be something that you also “know that just ain’t so”, the odds are much greater that you’ll both come away with more, and better, knowledge than you started with.

    And, as an added free bonus, you’ll feel a lot less guilty on those occasions when that first assumption turns out to be unwarranted, and you rip your opponent a new one for stupidly embracing something that’s patently absurd ;-)

  113. avatar
    Lupin May 31, 2014 at 4:48 am #

    I had written two very reasonable, non argumentative posts at BR regarding their persistent misrepresentation of what Vattel wrote, including a suggestion that if they wanted to use Vattel against Obama, they should capitalize on the fact that his father was not a US citizen (as opposed to making up the “two citizens parents” which is not there) but both posts were immediately deleted by the moderator. Their willful ignorance remains a source of wonder.

  114. avatar
    realist May 31, 2014 at 7:42 am #

    Joey: Hawaii Revised Statute 338-18(b) permits a copy of an original birth certificate to be procured by “a person whose right to inspect or obtain a copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction.”
    Since the birthers would never trust anything that was released by President Obama, it would be better to have the original document inspected by a person with a court order.

    Never. Gonna. Happen.

    Sunahara v Hawaii DOH – Appeal – Affirmed

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/227047360/2014-05-29-APPEAL-Sunahara-v-Hawaii-DOH-Summary-Disposition-Order

  115. avatar
    realist May 31, 2014 at 7:47 am #

    Conspiracy Commerce: If Zullo makes his case, Dr. Con and his minions will be the ones most worthy of close scientific study.

    There is no “case” to be made.

    There is no “there” there.

  116. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 31, 2014 at 8:18 am #

    Mind reader, are you?

    I have decades of experience with online forums (going back to dial-up bulletin boards) and I know full well how discussions get out of hand.

    I was interested in birthers and in examining conspiracy claims, and so I created a blog on that topic. From the start I didn’t want a general political forum, because such things get out of hand and go off on topics that don’t relate to what the blog is for.

    There’s no conspiracy and no relevant debunking to be done about Obama’s use of drones in Pakistani tribal areas. Benghazi is widely debated in the press and there are congressional investigations (so many that I have lost count). These are not topics that a blog like mine can illuminate, and there are plenty of places where these topics can be debated by those interested.

    It seems that birtherism at its heart is an attempt to prove that Obama is a bad person by whatever means possible, whether it is misrepresenting forensic analysis of his birth certificate, or reminding people over and over that Obama said “you can keep your insurance” when that was not always true. The attempt to put anyone in the worst possible light (as opposed to a fair treatment) is morally repugnant to me and not something I want on my blog.

    Conspiracy Commerce: That’s why the prolific partisan hack Dr. Con complains about Zullo’s “lies” but hushes his mouth about obama’s many lies and manipulations.

  117. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 31, 2014 at 8:27 am #

    Brian comes across to me as what we used to call a “straight arrow,” someone who vigorously insists that things be done according to the rules and that any appearance of impropriety be avoided.

    He thought that the vetting of Barack Obama’s eligibility had not been done and so he urged Secretary of State Bennett to press for a verification from Hawaii. When that verification came, he realized that the birth certificate was OK. But working with Zullo left other questions about the propriety of the Cold Case Posse’s investigation. He is again insisting that things be done according to the rules and the any appearance of impropriety be avoided.

    Conspiracy Commerce: Wow. That Brian Reilly is an interesting study. From the moving force behind getting Arpaio’s crew to looking at the evidence to complaining about Arpaio’s crew.

  118. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 31, 2014 at 8:33 am #

    Scott Tepper, in Taitz v. Democrat Party of Mississippi, had no problem getting a verification. It’s harder, however, for a birther attorney to get a verification because in most cases attorneys for Obama don’t submit copies of his birth certificate as evidence, hence no question, and no need for a verification. In the Mississippi case, Taitz submitted the certificate and questioned it, so Tepper on the other side was entitled to verification.

    As the judge told Apuzzo, “I don’t have a mug [with Obama's birth certificate on it].”

    gorefan: BTW, I don’t see anything in §338-18 that would have prevented any birther lawyer from getting a certified letter of verification Orly, Larry. Mario all could have asked for a certified letter of verification and specifically asked for each item on the BC to be verified.

  119. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 31, 2014 at 8:44 am #

    I’m more interested in investigating all the different user names you’ve used on this site.

    Please stick with one.

    Conspiracy Commerce: If Zullo makes his case, Dr. Con and his minions will be the ones most worthy of close scientific study.

  120. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 31, 2014 at 9:37 am #

    Conspiracy Commerce:
    If Zullo makes his case, Dr. Con and his minions will be the ones most worthy of close scientific study.

    You have a better chance of getting struck by lightning, while winning the lottery, then being eaten by a shark.

  121. avatar
    Keith May 31, 2014 at 9:46 am #

    RanTalbott: I strongly disagree: there’s a good reason that the original aphorism says “fool”, not “ignorant”.

    You are correct. I got it wrong. I meant ‘fool’.

    I agree with your lecture and thank you for reminding me.

  122. avatar
    gorefan May 31, 2014 at 10:34 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Taitz submitted the certificate and questioned it, so Tepper on the other side was entitled to verification.

    In Lamb v Obama – Lamb asked for a letter of verification and Hawaii responded that because he was not a lawyer (pro se doesn’t count) and because “[T]he section you cite only allows verification of a record which is already part of legal proceedings.” In Georgia, Van Irion and Hatfield submitted the BC, Orly still questioned it, could she have gotten a verification? I understand that Orly isn’t interested in finding the truth and a verification would have killed her case but technically the Hawaiian law does distinguish between which side asked for the verification.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/119840682/Lamb-Hawaii-Letter

  123. avatar
    bgansel9 May 31, 2014 at 10:58 am #

    gorefan: Orly still questioned it, could she have gotten a verification? I understand that Orly isn’t interested in finding the truth and a verification would have killed her case but technically the Hawaiian law does distinguish between which side asked for the verification.

    Orly doesn’t really care about birth certificates, she is hanging her hat on fake Social Security numbers and lies.

  124. avatar
    Joey May 31, 2014 at 11:17 am #

    realist: Never. Gonna. Happen.

    Sunahara v Hawaii DOH – Appeal – Affirmed

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/227047360/2014-05-29-APPEAL-Sunahara-v-Hawaii-DOH-Summary-Disposition-Order

    Its at the discretion of the Director. That is what was affirmed. Duncan Sunahara was confrontational and arrogant; the Freeper screen named “Danae” (Diana Cotter) and President Obama were polite and asked nicely and received copies of their Long Forms.
    I’m betting the Hawaii Director of Health would honor a judge’s court order or even a Congressional Committee’s subpoena.

  125. avatar
    realist May 31, 2014 at 11:39 am #

    Joey: I’m betting the Hawaii Director of Health would honor a judge’s court order or even a Congressional Committee’s subpoena.

    From a court of competent jurisdiction, they likely would. Perhaps from a Congressional subpoena as well, but there’s no need for such an Order nor subpoena, and it’s not gonna happen.

  126. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 31, 2014 at 11:47 am #

    I’m not a lawyer.

    It just seems that there has to be a point of contention in the case in order to get a verification. Technically in Georgia one plaintiff argued that Obama wasn’t eligible because of the facts on the certificate, and another plaintiff argued that the certificate was a forgery. Still, they were separate cases just sharing a hearing. Obama’s attorney didn’t appear, so he wasn’t arguing in court that the certificate was authentic (I’d have to check his written filing).

    In Mississippi, the point of contention was the issue of a sanctions motion by Taitz that Tepper should be sanctioned for submitting what she says was something he knew was a forgery. Whether it was a forgery or not was disputed.

    In the Purpura case, an important issue was whether the birth certificate was even before the court or not (it was not). Generally the defense in birther cases does not argue that the birth certificate is legitimate, but that the case should be dismissed.

    gorefan: I understand that Orly isn’t interested in finding the truth and a verification would have killed her case but technically the Hawaiian law does distinguish between which side asked for the verification.

  127. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 31, 2014 at 11:49 am #

    I agree, except that I would use a stronger word than “likely.”

    I have had conversations with vital records officials about court orders and their attitude is that they do what the court says.

    realist: From a court of competent jurisdiction, they likely would. Perhaps from a Congressional subpoena as well, but there’s no need for such an Order nor subpoena, and it’s not gonna happen.

  128. avatar
    realist May 31, 2014 at 11:59 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I agree, except that I would use a stronger word than “likely.”

    I have had conversations with vital records officials about court orders and their attitude is that they do what the court says.

    I say “likely” because I don’t think that just receiving a court order from court x would make them jump up and produce the document. Same with a subpoena.

    There are conditions which would have to be met (such as it being a court of competent jurisdiction), it would have to be based on proper law, etc. And they could appeal it and may want to, so that their highest court is the one setting the precedent (although that may and probably has already been done. I dunno)

    As you well know, just because one receives a subpoena or an Order does not automatically make either one valid nor enforceable.

  129. avatar
    Notorial Dissent May 31, 2014 at 12:24 pm #

    I guess I wasn’t aware that Zullo had minions at this point, I thought he was down to just his poorly imagined sock puppets, and since he never had any “scientific” advisors even at the height of the posse, I really don’t see how he/they could examine anything, except maybe their toes.

  130. avatar
    OllieOxenFree May 31, 2014 at 12:47 pm #

    @john

    You seem to be focused like a laser beam on what was “not verified,” and desperately want to ignore what was verified. So let’s discuss that for just a moment.
    We can see in the letter of verification that both parents’ birthplaces were verified. As you put it, this fact cannot be denied, correct?
    Well John, this creates a very significant problem for your theory. You see, there just weren’t that many parents giving birth to a newborn in Hawaii with those specific birthplace combinations. On fact, I would go so far as to say that it is unique to the extreme. Perhaps the only combination of parents with those specific birthplaces in the whole of the Hawaii DoH records. So just by the sheer uniqueness of those birthplaces, the parents have been verified. Unless you believe that there was another couple who existed in Hawaii at that time with those specific birthplaces who were giving birth to a child at that same hospital at roughly the same time.

  131. avatar
    Curious George May 31, 2014 at 1:05 pm #

    The Cold Case Posse members who are monitoring and posting on this board may also want to review the Verification of Birth requested by attorney Scott Tepper for the Mississippi eligibility case.

    http://birtherthinktank.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/mississippi-verification1.pdf

    Also, this thread is supposed to be about the Cold Case Posse and their scofflaw behavior. Hi-jacking threads fits right in with the CCCP modus operandi.

  132. avatar
    bgansel9 May 31, 2014 at 2:12 pm #

    Curious George: Also, this thread is supposed to be about the Cold Case Posse and their scofflaw behavior. Hi-jacking threads fits right in with the CCCP modus operandi.

    I’m in wait and see mode. I hope they lose their status.

  133. avatar
    Curious George May 31, 2014 at 3:29 pm #

    bgansel9
    “I’m in wait and see mode. I hope they lose their status.”

    They are indeed between a rock and a hard place. If they don’t respond, poof, they get dissolved. If they change the corporation addresses to meet the requirements of the law, it’s their admission that Riley was correct. They’re in a lose lose situation. :-(

  134. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 31, 2014 at 3:56 pm #

    I would name Carl Gallups and Mike Volin as Zullo minions.

    Notorial Dissent: I guess I wasn’t aware that Zullo had minions at this point,

  135. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 31, 2014 at 3:57 pm #

    Yes, of course.

    realist: There are conditions which would have to be met (such as it being a court of competent jurisdiction), it would have to be based on proper law, etc.

  136. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 31, 2014 at 4:11 pm #

    Curious George: They are indeed between a rock and a hard place. If they don’t respond, poof, they get dissolved. If they change the corporation addresses to meet the requirements of the law, it’s their admission that Riley was correct. They’re in a lose lose situation.

    I predict they’ll wiggle out of the Corporation Commission thing without creating any problems for themselves…..other than continuing to look foolish.

    The big potential problem looming out there is the IRS and its possible decision on their non-profit status and that takes two possible routes:

    First, you have to believe that the IRS is going to find that they are just like all the other posses and not a part of the MCSO so they need to file their own 990′s. Simply put that means Zullo has to disclose the posse’s finances going back to 2007: Income, expenses, etc. That is not going to be a pretty picture.

    Even if the posse survives financial disclosure and the outrage it has the potential to inspire I suspect the information will raise real questions about the posse’s fulfillment of the mission that allows it to be exempt from taxes.

    If the IRS revokes its non-profit status, especially retroactively, that creates a real swamp of problems that, in the end, could result in personal liabilities for Zullo and other officers of the Cold Case Posse.

    Fixing his mailing address is the least of Mr. Zullo’s problems!

  137. avatar
    Joey May 31, 2014 at 4:19 pm #

    realist: From a court of competent jurisdiction, they likely would.Perhaps from a Congressional subpoena as well, but there’s no need for such an Order nor subpoena, and it’s not gonna happen.

    You don’t think that judges of Alabama’s Roy Moore and Tom Parker’s ilk (if they were still in original jurisdiction courts) would issue such an order if asked by their far right birther fellow travelers?
    Who said anything about “need?” We’re talking about birthers here!

  138. avatar
    RanTalbott May 31, 2014 at 4:36 pm #

    CarlOrcas: I suspect the information will raise real questions about the posse’s fulfillment of the mission that allows it to be exempt from taxes.

    And their adherence to the “no lobbying” provision of their charter, since last year Zullups revealed that the “official law enforcement investigation” had been, from Day 1, an effort to persuade Congress to put on a circus.

    I’ve been noticing that meme more often recently. My interpretation is that they’re preparing the Zullobots for a letdown when (as Bonsall predicts) they announce “We’ve done all we can: it’s up to Congress now. So long, and thanks for all the birtherbux”.

  139. avatar
    Bonsall Obot May 31, 2014 at 4:55 pm #

    Don’t get me wrong; I don’t think for a minute they’re going to go quietly, or go while there are still Birfer Bux in someone else’s possession. They’re going to work the grift as long as the cash keeps flowing, and they’re going to try to settle scores on the way out the door. The current multilateral truce with Vogt and Booth and Gallups and the Kold Kream Kids and sundry other leading lights of Birferstan ain’t a permanent peace, merely a brief respite.

  140. avatar
    Curious George May 31, 2014 at 4:56 pm #

    CarlOrcas
    “First, you have to believe that the IRS is going to find that they are just like all the other posses and not a part of the MCSO so they need to file their own 990′s. Simply put that means Zullo has to disclose the posse’s finances going back to 2007: Income, expenses, etc. That is not going to be a pretty picture.”

    Add to the mix the possibility of the improper use of posse funds and that could lead to a whole world of hurt.

  141. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 31, 2014 at 5:03 pm #

    RanTalbott: And their adherence to the “no lobbying” provision of their charter, since last year Zullups revealed that the “official law enforcement investigation” had been, from Day 1, an effort to persuade Congress to put on a circus.

    I’ve been noticing that meme more often recently. My interpretation is that they’re preparing the Zullobots for a letdown when (as Bonsall predicts) they announce “We’ve done all we can: it’s up to Congress now. So long, and thanks for all the birtherbux”.

    I agree….they’re looking for some way to exit the public arena.

    Problem for them is that an Emily Litella-ish “Never mind” isn’t going to cut it with the IRS.

    There’s also the potential for civil and criminal fraud cases but strikes me as remote. Any thoughts from the lawyers on that?

  142. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 31, 2014 at 5:07 pm #

    Curious George: Add to the mix the possibility of the improper use of posse funds and that could lead to a whole world of hurt.

    The possibilities are endless.

  143. avatar
    realist May 31, 2014 at 5:08 pm #

    “Joey-You don’t think that judges of Alabama’s Roy Moore and Tom Parker’s ilk (if they were still in original jurisdiction courts) would issue such an order if asked by their far right birther fellow travelers?
    Who said anything about “need?” We’re talking about birthers here!”

    I don’t think even Moore and Parker are that stupid.

    The AL state courts have no authority whatsoever to Order HI DOH to do anything. And even those jackasses know that.

    So no, I don’t think they would. And even in some alternate universe if they did, it would be useless.

  144. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 31, 2014 at 5:23 pm #

    I don’t know if they can revoke the status retroactively, but they can tax any money spent for an improper purpose.

    CarlOrcas: If the IRS revokes its non-profit status, especially retroactively, that creates a real swamp of problems that, in the end, could result in personal liabilities for Zullo and other officers of the Cold Case Posse.

  145. avatar
    RanTalbott May 31, 2014 at 5:29 pm #

    Bonsall Obot: Don’t get me wrong

    Oh, I don’t. Sorry if my over-simplified summary gave the impression that you hadn’t thought through the other parts.

    I don’t mean to suggest they’re “going quietly”: I think the “any month now” Big Reveal is going to be as noisy as they can make it (which won’t be very noisy: Free Dumb Friday is likely to be the Major-est of the “Major Media”). We might disagree about how far they’re going to try to push the grift: I think they see declining donations, diminishing opportunities for new “targets” to add to the investigimagination, and will make the next media flop their last. It sounds like you think they might try to go further. Do you see them doing something like “exposing the Obot moles” to get another round of birtherbux (and get revenge on people who stole some of their suckers)?

  146. avatar
    Bonsall Obot May 31, 2014 at 5:54 pm #

    I don’t think I have any special insight; just based on what they say (and most tellingly, what they dont say,) I’m inclined to believe that they’re in their end-game both because they’re frustrated with their lack of results (which anti-Birfers predicted years ago,) and with the diminishing returns of cash AND fealty.

    I think, in the beginning, Zullo et al. genuinely knew they couldn’t pin any wrongdoing on the President or anyone associated with the President, but they also genuinely believed they could muddy the waters enough to sway the 2012 election. Birfers have utterly and forever failed in these aims. The commenters at Birfoon Report are now simply engaged in venting their hatred, and hoping that someone (else) will do something stupid on their behalf. Other than that, Birferism is pretty much dead.

    I believe that Zullo and Arpaio also planned/hoped to net a tidy sum by gulling the rubes; I look forward to the Kold Kase Klavern’s finances being laid bare just so we can rub it in Birferstan’s faces how much they were taken for, what it was spent on, and what results (none) they got for it.

    The depressing thing is that most of what Zullo and Arpaio have netted from this went and will always go unreported, even after the Kold Kase Klavern’s finances are laid bare, because it was likely off the books and came from the very wealthy backers who wanted this issue to disrupt the election in the first place.

    After that’s all said and done, all that’s left is the butthurt, something Birfoons have in increasing abundance. Almost every Birfoon “leader” is a sociopath or narcissist or both, and none of them can comprehend why the others won’t get in line behind them. As Birferism crumbles, the finger-pointing and recriminations will grow more frequent and vehement. Nothing they say or do will surprise me. Nothing.

  147. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 31, 2014 at 5:58 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I don’t know if they can revoke the status retroactively, but they can tax any money spent for an improper purpose.

    My impression has been that if the situation were egregious enough they could. Let’s see if a real lawyer can help with this.

  148. avatar
    RanTalbott May 31, 2014 at 6:08 pm #

    Bonsall Obot: I believe that Zullo and Arpaio also planned/hoped to net a tidy sum by gulling the rubes

    My theory on that (posted on another forum recently) is that Shurf Joke is _not_ financially connected to the CCP, because it might be illegal and/or give his unfriendly county commission a stick to beat him with.

    But I think he hoped for, and got, extra money in his campaign/retirement fund. Which he gets to keep even in the hoped-for, but unlikely, event that the CCP gets nailed for fraud.

  149. avatar
    Bonsall Obot May 31, 2014 at 6:20 pm #

    RanTalbott: My theory on that (posted on another forum recently) is that Shurf Joke is _not_ financially connected to the CCP, because it might be illegal and/or give his unfriendly county commission a stick to beat him with.

    But I think he hoped for, and got, extra money in his campaign/retirement fund. Which he gets to keep even in the hoped-for, but unlikely, event that the CCP gets nailed for fraud.

    Cash in the campaign/retirement fund is all very genteel and quaint, but even bagmen bringing unmarked small bills in big cloth bags directly to Shurf Joke’s office wouldn’t surprise me.

  150. avatar
    bgansel9 May 31, 2014 at 6:52 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I don’t know if they can revoke the status retroactively, but they can tax any money spent for an improper purpose.

    What happens if they didn’t keep records? (I’m thinking they probably thought it wasn’t necessary and would or might create problems if they did).

  151. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 31, 2014 at 7:15 pm #

    bgansel9: What happens if they didn’t keep records? (I’m thinking they probably thought it wasn’t necessary and would or might create problems if they did).

    If they were part of the county they would have been required to keep records that would be incorporated in the county’s annual financial statements.

    They weren’t and aren’t so that’s a moot point.

    As far as what happens if they didn’t keep records? Well…..there are lots of ways to figure out how much money flowed through an organization. The IRS would start with the posse’s bank accounts and then go from there.

    When they do that they determine how much money they think the organization took in and what it’s potential tax liability would be. If the organization is insolvent then they go after the officers.

  152. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 31, 2014 at 7:18 pm #

    RanTalbott: My theory on that (posted on another forum recently) is that Shurf Joke is _not_ financially connected to the CCP, because it might be illegal and/or give his unfriendly county commission a stick to beat him with.

    But I think he hoped for, and got, extra money in his campaign/retirement fund. Which he gets to keep even in the hoped-for, but unlikely, event that the CCP gets nailed for fraud.

    I’ve never seen or heard a word about any posse donations to his campaign fund(s). It would be illegal for the posses and not very bright for him.

    He’s doing just fine with the out of staters who donate most of the money to his campaign fund.

  153. avatar
    bgansel9 May 31, 2014 at 7:37 pm #

    CarlOrcas: As far as what happens if they didn’t keep records? Well…..there are lots of ways to figure out how much money flowed through an organization. The IRS would start with the posse’s bank accounts and then go from there.

    When they do that they determine how much money they think the organization took in and what it’s potential tax liability would be. If the organization is insolvent then they go after the officers.

    Thanks. It seems there has to be some sort of paper trail. Good!

  154. avatar
    Northland10 May 31, 2014 at 8:25 pm #

    bgansel9: Thanks. It seems there has to be some sort of paper trail. Good!

    As a review, there is an an exception from filing a form 990 for charities attached to a government agency. This exception is due to the expectation that the government organization would be responsible for the financial reporting. Maricopa county as stated they are not responsible for the financial reporting so the CCP must file 990s or lose their 501(c)(3) status. As of today, they have not filed any 990s.

    After losing the status, I do not know what would happen with further audits.

    Quick edit: If they are under a certain limit, they could file the 990-n e-Postcard.

  155. avatar
    bgansel9 May 31, 2014 at 9:13 pm #

    Northland10: Quick edit: If they are under a certain limit, they could file the 990-n e-Postcard.

    That would be current year only, correct?

  156. avatar
    Northland10 May 31, 2014 at 9:26 pm #

    bgansel9: That would be current year only, correct?

    If I understand the IRS instructions correctly, you cannot enter a prior year through the normal system, but you can file an e-Postcard through one of the IRS’s approved e-file providers.

  157. avatar
    Keith May 31, 2014 at 11:01 pm #

    CarlOrcas: I agree….they’re looking for some way to exit the public arena.

    Problem for them is that an Emily Litella-ish “Never mind” isn’t going to cut it with the IRS.

    There’s also the potential for civil and criminal fraud cases but strikes me as remote. Any thoughts from the lawyers on that?

    Never mind.

  158. avatar
    RanTalbott June 1, 2014 at 1:59 am #

    CarlOrcas: I’ve never seen or heard a word about any posse donations to his campaign fund(s)

    Neither have I: that’s why I said “not financially connected”.

    What I was saying (albeit a little too fuzzily, it seems) is that he gets more campaign donations because birfers associate him with the CCP’s birfering.

    It’s a can’t-lose proposition for him: he has plausibile deniability if the CCP hits the fan*, gets a bump in donations, and doesn’t have to any work for it (other that dropping a “Mah boys is makin’ some big progess” into an interview once in a while.

    * Maybe: I’ve seen a few cases, possibly slip-ups, where he appears to be lending credibility to the CCP’s “We iz offishul po-pos” con. So maybe he could get named as a co-conspirator.

  159. avatar
    Curious George June 1, 2014 at 9:51 am #

    Ran Talbott

    “What I was saying (albeit a little too fuzzily, it seems) is that he gets more campaign donations because birfers associate him with the CCP’s birfering.”

    It makes sense. Shurf Joe knows how to play a crowd. He is one who seldom changes his comedy routine, and the Arpaio faithful just eat it up. Meanwhile, how many millions of dollars has he cost Maricopa county with his antics? And let’s not forget that Arpaio did the foreword for Zullo’s and Corsi’s e-book, “A Question of Eligibility” put on sale by Amazon, just prior to the first Cold Cut Posse press conference in early 2012. Arpaio is up to his eyeballs in this birther fiasco.

  160. avatar
    Rickey June 1, 2014 at 10:38 am #

    realist: I say “likely” because I don’t think that just receiving a court order from court x would make them jump up and produce the document.Same with a subpoena.

    There are conditions which would have to be met (such as it being a court of competent jurisdiction), it would have to be based on proper law, etc.And they could appeal it and may want to, so that their highest court is the one setting the precedent (although that may and probably has already been done.I dunno)

    As you well know, just because one receives a subpoena or an Order does not automatically make either one valid nor enforceable.

    My guess is that Hawaii would ignore a court order or a subpoena from a state court other than Hawaii’s. Hawaii would likely file a motion to quash a subpoena from a Federal Court.

    A Federal Court order would be more difficult to oppose, because an order (as opposed to a subpoena) would result from arguments made before a Federal judge and would demonstrate that the judge had decided that the requested document is relevant to the case at hand. Of course, that isn’t going to happen, and there isn’t going to be a Congressional subpoena, either.

  161. avatar
    Rickey June 1, 2014 at 10:40 am #

    Curious George:
    The Cold Case Posse members who are monitoring and posting on this board may also want to review the Verification of Birth requested by attorney Scott Tepper for the Mississippi eligibility case.

    http://birtherthinktank.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/mississippi-verification1.pdf

    Now we’ll wait for “John” to argue that “matches” doesn’t mean that it is the same.

  162. avatar
    Rickey June 1, 2014 at 10:51 am #

    john: If you go that route, your right back to where you started.Why then didn’t SOS Bennett ask for the DOB is be verified but felt he needed to verify the age of the father.

    I’m guessing that it is because Bennett is only marginally smarter than you. That fact that he let himself get sucked into birtherism in the first place tells us most of what we need to know about him.

  163. avatar
    Bonsall Obot June 1, 2014 at 10:57 am #

    john:

    Why then didn’t SOS Bennett ask for the DOB is be verified

    Why then didn’t john the racist drive-by troll ask SOS Bennet that question, instead of whining about it on the internet?

  164. avatar
    Rickey June 1, 2014 at 4:38 pm #

    Bonsall Obot: Why then didn’t john the racist drive-by troll ask SOS Bennet that question, instead of whining about it on the internet?

    After re-reading Bennett’s letter and the request form, I believe that he was looking for a verification of each individual item on the LFBC, but he didn’t word his letter very well. He wrote, “In addition to the items to be verified in the attached form, please verify the following items from the record of birth.” It appears to me that he expected Alvin Onaka to individually verify both the items listed on the request form and the ten items mentioned in the cover letter. The request for the “following items” actually was redundant, since Onaka certified that everything on the copy of the LFBC matches what is on the original, but Onaka addressed those “additional” ten items separately anyway. In any event, Bennett accepted the response from Onaka as fully satisfying his request, which makes Bennett at least marginally smarter than birther John.

  165. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 1, 2014 at 5:39 pm #

    Bonsall Obot: Why then didn’t john the racist drive-by troll ask SOS Bennet that question, instead of whining about it on the internet?

    Were it not for whining on the internet our jimmy john would have nothing to do in life.

  166. avatar
    Suranis June 2, 2014 at 10:07 am #

    It’s also an Icelandic computer game company that produces an MMPORG called Eve Online. Which is kind of awful but highly addictive.

    CCB: One other thing. Every time you use “CCP” I have to think twice because it is a common abbreviation for another secretive organization, the Chinese Communist Party. It also has red flags.

  167. avatar
    bgansel9 June 2, 2014 at 3:31 pm #

    Rickey: I’m guessing that it is because Bennett is only marginally smarter than you. That fact that he let himself get sucked into birtherism in the first place tells us most of what we need to know about him.

    Ken Bennett did get suckered into the birther debate, and now he thinks he’s got what it takes to be Arizona’s next governor. UGH! – http://bennettarizona.com/news/

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